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MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/39: Difference between revisions
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@Vommak: That is the whole reason why I satrted this proposal, and I just grew that idea, so if this doesn't pass, I still want there to be uniformity like you said. {{User:Mario7/Sig}} 16:49, 18 May 2014 (EDT) | @Vommak: That is the whole reason why I satrted this proposal, and I just grew that idea, so if this doesn't pass, I still want there to be uniformity like you said. {{User:Mario7/Sig}} 16:49, 18 May 2014 (EDT) | ||
:That is an example of 1-bullet [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining_the_identifier|here]]. In general, course is good. But ''Super Mario 64'' identifies maps as courses, so [[Tick Tock Clock]] and [[Tick-Tock Clock (race course)]] are both courses. Which is why "race course" is used to differentiate one from the other. Also see my comments [http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/ | :That is an example of 1-bullet [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining_the_identifier|here]]. In general, course is good. But ''Super Mario 64'' identifies maps as courses, so [[Tick Tock Clock]] and [[Tick-Tock Clock (race course)]] are both courses. Which is why "race course" is used to differentiate one from the other. Also see my comments [http://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/38#Comments_13 here] about console abbreviations making the article relevant to multiple games. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 17:18, 18 May 2014 (EDT) | ||
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===Create mother articles for ''Mario Kart'' tires & gliders=== | ===Create mother articles for ''Mario Kart'' tires & gliders=== | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-0|create}} | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-0|create}} | ||
Looking back at [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 39#Create separate articles for Standard Kart and Standard Bike|a nearly 2-month-old proposal]] by {{User|Tails777}}, I noticed that there's no mother articles for tires ''or'' gliders. Therefore, I propose that we create the said articles, so that they have a little info, as well as direct links and photos of the tire and glider customization from ''[[Mario Kart 7|7]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 8|8]]''. | Looking back at [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/39#Create separate articles for Standard Kart and Standard Bike|a nearly 2-month-old proposal]] by {{User|Tails777}}, I noticed that there's no mother articles for tires ''or'' gliders. Therefore, I propose that we create the said articles, so that they have a little info, as well as direct links and photos of the tire and glider customization from ''[[Mario Kart 7|7]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 8|8]]''. | ||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Stonehill}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Stonehill}}<br> | ||
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::So how exactly do I contradict myself if I never agreed with this system in the first place? - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 23:10, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | ::So how exactly do I contradict myself if I never agreed with this system in the first place? - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 23:10, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | ||
::Organization =/= canon (it says as much in bold in [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]]); most readers probably care more about ''Super Mario'' tiles than ''Mario Tennis'' or whatever, so it's easier for them if it's near the top; keeping everything together also makes it easier: that's the goal of the wiki - to be a reader-friendly database. The Japanese stuff ''doesn't'' actually overrule English: everything is equal, and when things conflict, we're supposed to use what makes the most sense and try to report all of the sides of the story objectively. For ''SMA<s>S</s>'', I meant in Histories and with respect to the ''Super Mario'' games, not the overall "Mario (series)" page, since in practice, they work nothing like the other subseries you listed there (currently, since they're essentially ports, they're usually just listed with the parent game, which works fine imo), and your proposal didn't really address them or the random ''[[All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros.]]''-type games, and thoroughness is ''very'' important with stuff like this. As for ''Super Mario Land'', that was the center of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/ | ::Organization =/= canon (it says as much in bold in [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]]); most readers probably care more about ''Super Mario'' tiles than ''Mario Tennis'' or whatever, so it's easier for them if it's near the top; keeping everything together also makes it easier: that's the goal of the wiki - to be a reader-friendly database. The Japanese stuff ''doesn't'' actually overrule English: everything is equal, and when things conflict, we're supposed to use what makes the most sense and try to report all of the sides of the story objectively. For ''SMA<s>S</s>'', I meant in Histories and with respect to the ''Super Mario'' games, not the overall "Mario (series)" page, since in practice, they work nothing like the other subseries you listed there (currently, since they're essentially ports, they're usually just listed with the parent game, which works fine imo), and your proposal didn't really address them or the random ''[[All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros.]]''-type games, and thoroughness is ''very'' important with stuff like this. As for ''Super Mario Land'', that was the center of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/31#Coming_up_with_a_more_consistent_standard_for_the_Super_Mario_series|a rather hairy proposal back in 2012]]. You can have fun reading all the big essays in the comments and on the forum posts linked to if you want to, but basically, the ''SMASLE'' booklet doesn't include them as part of the ''Super Mario'' series and doing what Nintendo does is better than making things up, and while ''SMB2'' has been completely integrated into the ''Super Mario'' series, ''SML'' has not, at all: they're not comparable. - {{User|Walkazo}} | ||
:::As I said, and as that backs up what I said, you could simply make it so that the platforming games are listed before any sort've spin-off. Heck, you could even just make it so that they came before the already subbed-series like Mario & Luigi in case they didn't come out first. The order of that seems less important than how the current ''Super Mario'' grouping where most other games are just shoved in cause they're platformers or considered "main" in a canon grouping that doesn't exist. This better disregards a fan idea of canon and simply groups the games that are tied together in apparent contexts. If that's the reasoning you might as well just call it ''Mario platformer'' series. So if what a booklet is what this comes down to, did that group Super Mario Sunshine or Super Mario Galaxy or any of the New Super games with those other games? Whatever past-proposals there were, if you're going to argue that Super Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 64, even, go in the regular Super Mario series sections, so should a series like Super Mario Land, because with how I group it in the proposal, it's pointed out that those two new sections are justifiably different in terms of what follows what. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 23:33, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | :::As I said, and as that backs up what I said, you could simply make it so that the platforming games are listed before any sort've spin-off. Heck, you could even just make it so that they came before the already subbed-series like Mario & Luigi in case they didn't come out first. The order of that seems less important than how the current ''Super Mario'' grouping where most other games are just shoved in cause they're platformers or considered "main" in a canon grouping that doesn't exist. This better disregards a fan idea of canon and simply groups the games that are tied together in apparent contexts. If that's the reasoning you might as well just call it ''Mario platformer'' series. So if what a booklet is what this comes down to, did that group Super Mario Sunshine or Super Mario Galaxy or any of the New Super games with those other games? Whatever past-proposals there were, if you're going to argue that Super Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 64, even, go in the regular Super Mario series sections, so should a series like Super Mario Land, because with how I group it in the proposal, it's pointed out that those two new sections are justifiably different in terms of what follows what. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 23:33, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | ||
::::And I didn't address a game like All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros. because as of now it wasn't listed in the Super Mario series section anyway, so whatever new section it may best apply to is simply where it would go, and would've obviously been addressed if the proposal was passed. I didn't group the games as they are currently, that's why I'm making this proposal in the first place. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 23:37, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | ::::And I didn't address a game like All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros. because as of now it wasn't listed in the Super Mario series section anyway, so whatever new section it may best apply to is simply where it would go, and would've obviously been addressed if the proposal was passed. I didn't group the games as they are currently, that's why I'm making this proposal in the first place. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 23:37, 7 June 2014 (EDT) | ||
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::I believe the reason we never created separate character pages for Mario and Luigi for the film was because unlike Princess Daisy and Bowser and others character's in the film, they didn't differ as much as these characters and as a film, a poor film even, there wasn't much to say in the way of them like there is the cartoon characters. If the live-portrayals for Super Mario Bros Super Show don't have as much to separate them, it could be appropriate to include that info on the DIC cartoon character pages proposed, right?[[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 18:09, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ::I believe the reason we never created separate character pages for Mario and Luigi for the film was because unlike Princess Daisy and Bowser and others character's in the film, they didn't differ as much as these characters and as a film, a poor film even, there wasn't much to say in the way of them like there is the cartoon characters. If the live-portrayals for Super Mario Bros Super Show don't have as much to separate them, it could be appropriate to include that info on the DIC cartoon character pages proposed, right?[[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 18:09, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ||
:'''@Ghost Jam:''' [[MarioWiki:Proposals/ | :'''@Ghost Jam:''' [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Different_Version_Characters|This proposal from 2009]] resulted in the film characters being split, after [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&oldid=671891#Peach.2FDaisy_in_Film an earlier proposal just about Daisy, which was removed and never properly archived]; the decision was reaffirmed [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/29#Super_Mario_Bros._Film_Information:_Where_Should_It_Go.3F|by this 2012 proposal]]. The argument was that (some of) the film characters were so different from the ones in the games, it would be easier to just treat them as separate characters. Eventually, all the other characters got split, although I don't think that was done by a Proposal: it was just done and no one protested, maybe because it was being consistent with the film characters that ''did'' have pages. While there are ''tonnes'' of differences between the film and the games (Iggy is Koopa's idiot cousin not his nerdy kid; Daisy is the princess of the "mushroom kingdom", Dinohatten; Big Bertha is a bouncer, not a fish; Toad is a delinquent busker), I feel like there's a lot more similarity between the games and cartoons (Toadstool is still the princess; Koopa is still an evil king with seven kids; the Mushroom Kingdom is the setting...), and most of the differences aren't as radical as the film (i.e. Toadstool and Bowsers' different designs are based on the game sprites; Mario & Luigi's origin story is the same as early games, before ''Yoshi's Island'', etc.), so it's a lot harder to justify splitting them. The fact that the comics borrow from both game-like and cartoon-like designs and portrayals further muddles the two, and if this passes, it could snowball into wanting to split things like the ''Donkey Kong Country'' cartoon characters, the offbeat ''Super Mario-Kun'' portrayals, and then maybe all comic and alternate media appearances, and this way of thinking has been [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/17#Update_Character_Main_Biographies|strongly discouraged]] as a way of organizing the wiki [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/23#Character_Pages_Extras|in the past]], one reason being that it makes it look like different medias are held as being more-or-less important or canon by the wiki, which isn't true. (I'm not even comfortable with the fact that everyone's hatred of the film is part of why those characters got separated in the first place, but ah well.) - {{User|Walkazo}} | ||
::But I did point out that one of the major reasons is because of the vast amount of content to be said with their cartoon appearances. And Bowser actually doesn't have seven kids any longer. The koopalings designs are also vastly different. Some of the same character traits apply to the major characters, but with their appearances in numerous episodes, again, there's a lot to say in the way of the cartoon characters that doesn't apply to the game characters. So there's a lot that could be included on separate pages for them that right now you can't include everything, but there's still too much info for a lot of the characters to be put into a measly section for them. Also, I thought one of the cartoons took place in Dinosaurland? With cavemen and everything. I also did mention how there simply isn't as much to say about comic appearances in comparison to the amount there is with the cartoons in regards to what can be grouped together, so just because this proposes separate pages for the cartoon characters, doesn't mean it would be enough to justify separate pages for any other non-game media appearance. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 19:21, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ::But I did point out that one of the major reasons is because of the vast amount of content to be said with their cartoon appearances. And Bowser actually doesn't have seven kids any longer. The koopalings designs are also vastly different. Some of the same character traits apply to the major characters, but with their appearances in numerous episodes, again, there's a lot to say in the way of the cartoon characters that doesn't apply to the game characters. So there's a lot that could be included on separate pages for them that right now you can't include everything, but there's still too much info for a lot of the characters to be put into a measly section for them. Also, I thought one of the cartoons took place in Dinosaurland? With cavemen and everything. I also did mention how there simply isn't as much to say about comic appearances in comparison to the amount there is with the cartoons in regards to what can be grouped together, so just because this proposes separate pages for the cartoon characters, doesn't mean it would be enough to justify separate pages for any other non-game media appearance. [[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 19:21, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ||
::Also with your comment on being uncomfortable with people's feelings towards the film and them being separated already, I think you might be letting your feelings get in the way of how this could actually be a good thing for the information we provide on the cartoons. Again, part of the reason of this proposal is to provide a better more appropriate space to provide information on the characters as they appear in the cartoon. Bowser's page is a good example of how there just isn't a good outcome to keeping every form of the character on one page.[[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 19:29, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ::Also with your comment on being uncomfortable with people's feelings towards the film and them being separated already, I think you might be letting your feelings get in the way of how this could actually be a good thing for the information we provide on the cartoons. Again, part of the reason of this proposal is to provide a better more appropriate space to provide information on the characters as they appear in the cartoon. Bowser's page is a good example of how there just isn't a good outcome to keeping every form of the character on one page.[[User:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|UhHuhAlrightDaisy]] ([[User talk:UhHuhAlrightDaisy|talk]]) 19:29, 8 June 2014 (EDT) | ||