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MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions
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'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br> | ||
'''Deadline''': April 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT | '''Deadline''': <s>April 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to April 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT | ||
====Merge all ''Super Mario Bros.'' (film) subjects with their game counterparts==== | ====Merge all ''Super Mario Bros.'' (film) subjects with their game counterparts==== | ||
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#{{User|Mario}} Echoing my sentiments in my 2016 proposal[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Remerge_most_Super_Mario_Bros._film_information] a bit (tho I promise to be less grouchy :O}D). Even with the filmmmaker's contrived notion that live action movie Mario is supposed to be a separate entity from Mario from the Mario Kart series, if you work with that logic backward, they're still variants of each other, basically two different takes of the Mario the Super Brother. This can extend for the other characters. That being said, some of the target pages articles are big enough as they are already but I s'pose that's a different problem irrelevant to the logic of these pages. | #{{User|Mario}} Echoing my sentiments in my 2016 proposal[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Remerge_most_Super_Mario_Bros._film_information] a bit (tho I promise to be less grouchy :O}D). Even with the filmmmaker's contrived notion that live action movie Mario is supposed to be a separate entity from Mario from the Mario Kart series, if you work with that logic backward, they're still variants of each other, basically two different takes of the Mario the Super Brother. This can extend for the other characters. That being said, some of the target pages articles are big enough as they are already but I s'pose that's a different problem irrelevant to the logic of these pages. | ||
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Keeping the coverage on the same article reflects how they're the same thing. Different entity doesn't necessarily mean different subject. If anything, separate articles on the film characters would set an unwelcome precedent for scattering information of like, let's say, ''Super Mario-kun'' or ''Super Mario Bros. Movie'' counterparts of Mario into separate articles, which we'd want to avoid. | #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Keeping the coverage on the same article reflects how they're the same thing. Different entity doesn't necessarily mean different subject. If anything, separate articles on the film characters would set an unwelcome precedent for scattering information of like, let's say, ''Super Mario-kun'' or ''Super Mario Bros. Movie'' counterparts of Mario into separate articles, which we'd want to avoid. | ||
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. | #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} I think it's best to not be arbitrary with who gets merged or not based on how different they are from their "main" counterpart. Per all. | ||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Maybe I could work with this kind of continuity-based differentiation in a series with, like, ''any'' sense of continuity, but I don't really think the Mario series has that. | #{{User|Ahemtoday}} Maybe I could work with this kind of continuity-based differentiation in a series with, like, ''any'' sense of continuity, but I don't really think the Mario series has that. | ||
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We think this makes the most sense, and in the name of consistency, what we do to one, we should probably do to all. Besides, it's not like the 1993 movie is even the first time that a different entity has used the name of a pre-existing entity--though unlike things like [[Galoomba|G(al)oombas]], the 1993 movie incarnations stand alone, with only things like gags in mangas deciding that the movie incarnations are different from the original characters (such as what happened to [[Yoshi (film character)|Yoshi]])--and even in those cases, it's pretty clearly not part of some deep lore for the film itself. <small>We hope this rationale makes sense, anyways? As we write this we're a tad tired, so if you need clarification, just ask politely.</small> | |||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I forgot I hadn't voted. I prefer this option. I'd be fine with the other popular option (for now), aside from questioning why Toad is part of the exclusions. | |||
====Merge most of these, but keep Spike and Big Bertha separate from the enemies they're based on==== | ====Merge most of these, but keep Spike and Big Bertha separate from the enemies they're based on==== | ||
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====Merge most of these, but keep Toad, Princess Daisy, Iggy, Spike, and Big Bertha separate==== | ====Merge most of these, but keep Toad, Princess Daisy, Iggy, Spike, and Big Bertha separate==== | ||
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per proposal. | #{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} I agree with merging the more obviously game-inspired characters like Mario and Luigi where the split feels more like a vestige of the wiki's former obsession with its made-up idea of canon, but merging characters like Iggy and Spike where pretty much the only thing in common is the name with (to my knowledge) little indication they're even based on the game characters doesn't feel right. | #{{User|Hewer}} I agree with merging the more obviously game-inspired characters like Mario and Luigi where the split feels more like a vestige of the wiki's former obsession with its made-up idea of canon, but merging characters like Iggy and Spike where pretty much the only thing in common is the name with (to my knowledge) little indication they're even based on the game characters doesn't feel right. EDIT: I agree with DrippingYellow's comment about how the King and Mushroom King shouldn't be merged though, since their only similarity is that they're both kings, but that can be dealt with in another proposal. | ||
#{{User|Arend}} I'm most hesitant about merging Daisy. As you know, Daisy is pretty much the movie's equivalent of Princess Toadstool, and in a previous concept, was even named Hildy/Heidi/whichever of the two it was. Had that name not been changed to Daisy, many would obviously argue to merge it with [[Princess Peach]] instead. I would also say that it's pretty bizarre to have one of the two bumbling henchmen be based on a Koopaling while the other is based on a random enemy, instead of ''both'' being based on a Koopaling (we got ''seven'' of those guys; they couldn't have called the other henchman "Larry"?); not to mention that this version of Toad was once called Lemmy (''another'' Koopaling). | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Leaning more on this idea. There are the obvious ones, but I think the ones holding me back from an all out merge are Spike and Big Bertha, as they seem way different compared to what they are supposedly based off of (also the Iggy one feels a bit off to merge with the Koopaling). | |||
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all | |||
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Secondary choice; per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} I think I'd rather go with this option, since those particular subjects have too little overlap with their game "counterparts". Besides, how would a carnivorous freshwater fish share clear commonality with an...uncomfortably attractive humanoid being? | |||
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all, Archivist Toadette especially. | |||
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall (collectively) | |||
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Say what you will about trying not to separate variations of characters, even in media with notable differences from the "main canon" (i.e. ''[[Super Mario Bros. Super Show|Super Show]]'' and ''[[Super Mario Bros.: Peach-hime Kyūshutsu Dai Sakusen!|Peach-hime Kyūshutsu Dai Sakusen]]''), these characters still have recognizable attributes. Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi certainly fit the bill of mere variations, but others I'm a little more icky on, with this lining up most easily with my opinions. With the film being designed to be a deliberate departure from other Mario material, it makes sense not to merge film characters unless they have significantly overlapping roles with their game counterparts. (e.g. Goombas are still the front-line weaklings, Yoshi is still held captive by Koopa and has a long tongue...)<br>The only merges I entirely disagree with here are the Snifits (who don't shoot bullets at all, and, if I had to guess, had their name chosen just because they "sniff 'it' (the garbage)"). As well as the King because... umm... he's not the king of the mushroom kingdom, nor Peach's father? I don't even get this connection to be honest. Nevertheless, I'm willing to wait it out to change those if this passes, because something something two-party system... | |||
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Mario and Luigi have some similarities with their video game counterparts, but Toad, Iggy and Spike have nothing in common with their namesake, Big Bertha is way too different to the fish she is based on, and Daisy seems more like "Princess Toadstool but we called her Daisy because "Toadstool" is not a given name". | |||
#{{User|Biggestman}} I agree with all above points, however if there was an option to also keep President Koopa split I would vote for that, he's literally just not the same guy in the movie in any way whatsoever. | |||
====Only merge Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, President Koopa/Bowser, and King; keep the rest separate==== | ====Only merge Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, President Koopa/Bowser, and King; keep the rest separate==== | ||
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====Other==== | ====Other==== | ||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Considering all of the "History of X" articles that have been written, why don't we ''keep'' the separate articles, but ''rebrand'' them as "History of X in ''Super Mario Bros.'' (1993)"? Maybe down the road, if Illumination gets enough content, we'll think about if we want to do "History of X in film" or "History of X in cartoons/television" or something. This'll satisfy the proposal's condition while lightening the load. Plus, this'll save the headache of merging the character infoboxes (unless the idea was to keep them intact in film sections). | |||
====Do nothing==== | ====Do nothing==== | ||
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} While I completely understand and agree with [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]] and the points stated above, I just don't want these to be merged at all. All of the characters mentioned are very different from their game counterparts, and many characters that are non-human in the video games are at least partially human in the movie (like Bowser (video game character) and King Koopa (movie "counterpart"). This is enough for me to not want to merge any of the pages. | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per FOR2007. | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} The 1993 movie was an awful adaptation that changed too much. I would want [[Bob Hoskins]]' Mario to remain separate from the the games' Mario. President Koopa is clearly very different from Bowser. | |||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'm still okay with this, too. I know ''we'' don't make canonical judgments, but when ''creatives'' do on the rare occasion, that's where I think we should stand. After all, "This Ain't No Game." Per [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Oppose 8|myself]] in the old proposal. | |||
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per LinkTheLefty. | |||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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Did this need to be one huge proposal? The fact that there are ''seven'' options as well as an "Other" option (which, how would that even work if it got the most votes?) suggests to me that the ''Mario Bros.'' movie live-action subjects have far too much range in how close they are to their OG counterparts for this to be resolved in one seven-day proposal. For instance, I mostly agree with the fifth option, except for the inclusion of the [[King (film character)|King]] among the merged characters (considering that unlike the [[Mushroom King]], he is neither the king of the Mushroom Kingdom nor [[Princess Peach|Peach's]] father (he's ''[[Princess Daisy (film character)|Daisy's]]'' father)).<br>If we were to add options for every little disagreement with the proposal author's reasoning in this particular instance, it would become a nightmare to try and find an appropriate option to vote on. I'd suggest splitting the proposal based on character roles (e.g. one for main characters, one for minor characters like Yoshi, one for creatures like Goombas, and one for references-in-name-only like [[Toad (film character)|Toad]], [[Big Bertha (film character)|Big Bertha]], etc.) [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 13:36, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | Did this need to be one huge proposal? The fact that there are ''seven'' options as well as an "Other" option (which, how would that even work if it got the most votes?) suggests to me that the ''Mario Bros.'' movie live-action subjects have far too much range in how close they are to their OG counterparts for this to be resolved in one seven-day proposal. For instance, I mostly agree with the fifth option, except for the inclusion of the [[King (film character)|King]] among the merged characters (considering that unlike the [[Mushroom King]], he is neither the king of the Mushroom Kingdom nor [[Princess Peach|Peach's]] father (he's ''[[Princess Daisy (film character)|Daisy's]]'' father)).<br>If we were to add options for every little disagreement with the proposal author's reasoning in this particular instance, it would become a nightmare to try and find an appropriate option to vote on. I'd suggest splitting the proposal based on character roles (e.g. one for main characters, one for minor characters like Yoshi, one for creatures like Goombas, and one for references-in-name-only like [[Toad (film character)|Toad]], [[Big Bertha (film character)|Big Bertha]], etc.) [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 13:36, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | ||
:I would argue that range from source material isn't much of a factor in so much as they're variants of a source character and my understanding is that we do sometimes merge whack variants of the same entity, such as Skeeters. I'd go for the straightforward option because I don't see much merit debating within gradience of who gets a separate article or not. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:56, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | :I would argue that range from source material isn't much of a factor in so much as they're variants of a source character and my understanding is that we do sometimes merge whack variants of the same entity, such as Skeeters. I'd go for the straightforward option because I don't see much merit debating within gradience of who gets a separate article or not. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:56, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | ||
::I'd still argue that there's a point where it's not so much a variant as it is an entirely new character that only uses an existing character name as a callback. The film's plot provides a framework for this, considering it is loosely based off of the ''Mario'' games' story: Princess Daisy is the damsel-in-distress, Koopa is the antagonist who kidnaps her, Goombas are his lackeys, Yoshi is a dinosaur with a long tongue who is also held captive by Koopa, and Mario and Luigi are the heroes. Those are definitely a variation of standard Mario features.<br>However, then there are characters like Big Bertha who shares no similarities with her namesake other than being... well, big. <small>Not to mention she should probably stay split anyway considering normal Big Bertha is an enemy species, while ''this'' Big Bertha is a unique character. Spike at the very least should also be split for similar reasons.</small> Big Bertha's connection to her original inspiration would at least be more plausible if, for example, she was a marine biologist or had a scene where she saved Mario from drowning or something. I'm a little more inclined to merge Toad, since he gives exposition about the fungus (which would line up with the original character's appearance), but then again, [[:File:SMBFilmCardH1.png|he was originally named Lemmy]], so the connection there may not have been intentional. And as for the King vs. the Mushroom King, the Mushroom King article is a catch-all for anytime the king of the Mushroom Kingdom. To include a King in that article who exists in a continuity where there is no Mushroom Kingdom seems a little odd. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 14:43, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:::To be fair, we can't think of how else to showcase the granularity of the options than the deluge of choices; short of something like a checkbox-esque "vote for this one if you think it should be split!" proposal, which is entirely unprecedented and we have no real way of handling. Is it clunky? Yes. But it's either this, a bunch of standalone proposals (which could get ''even more'' messy), or some entirely new form of proposal gets invented ''just'' to handle this. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:57, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
::::I don't really see how the standalone option would make things messier. Is it that hard to keep track of multiple proposals? The choice would be between that or a list of options that is either unreadably long or doesn't have an option that aligns with your opinion due to something like an assumption by the author. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 21:29, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
By the by, what's this version of Spike called in the Japanese localization of the film? I think that's important to ask because we do in fact have [[Foreman Spike|''another'' Spike]] in this franchise, one who is decidedly NOT called "Gabon" in Japanese, ever. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:58, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
On the contrary, the thought has crossed my mind to go in the other direction and have something done with the ''Paper Mario'' universe and characters, but it'd probably be controversial. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:21, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:Strongly disagree, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|the arguments against all hold]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:51, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
::I would oppose covering all Paper Mario appearances in the Paper character articles and I would also oppose merging them all with their regular counterparts. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 17:25, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:::You see, while the 1993 Mario movie characters are drastically different from their mainline game counterparts (or namesakes), the same can''not'' be said about the Paper Mario characters, which stay relatively close to the source material in comparison. Sure, the first three games gave most enemies a couple of design quirks that stand out from the mainline games, but they are still recognizable as those enemies.<br>Same deal with the 2023 Mario movie counterparts; they have some differences, but are still clear and recognizable as the same characters. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:41, April 5, 2024 (EDT) | |||
::::I never really nailed down how it would work, but wouldn't be as full splits. Maybe something along the lines of how we now have "History" articles split from their sections. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:45, April 12, 2024 (EDT) | |||
Regarding Iggy, unused scripts on the SMBMovieArchive website show that originally, there were other Koopaling-named characters (like Morton and Wendy as announcers), showing Iggy was an intentional reference. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:31, April 8, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:But still, being named after another character doesn't necessarily make them the same character given how otherwise completely different they are, especially considering what's already been brought up about how characters like Toad were originally named differently. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:13, April 8, 2024 (EDT) | |||
This needs looked into some more as I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall the script referring to the generic Dinohattan police officers as Koopa Troopas (a variation of that name was given to Goombas in earlier development). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:59, April 9, 2024 (EDT) | |||
' | @Doc von Schmeltwick: As Arend mentioned, the character that ended up being "Toad" was originally called Lemmy, which to me feels like evidence that the inspiration doesn't extend beyond the name, and merging based on that alone would be a strange choice. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:45, April 10, 2024 (EDT) | ||
' | :Aside from being an ally. The "good Goomba" character at that point in the script rewrites was a separate character named "Hark," anyway, and there were other associated "freedom fighter"-type characters in addition to the one who is Toad in the final. [https://www.smbmovie.com/SMBArchive/preproduction/script.htm Also, he was called "Toad" first], [https://www.smbmovie.com/SMBArchive/preproduction/script/13_Disney_Synopsis.htm with "Lemmy" being used for a single draft in mid-production]. In the first "Wizard of Oz"-style draft, he had basically the same role Toad would be given in the more recent movie, but drifted slowly from that as rewrites occured. He is still, therefore, primarily derived from the games' Toad. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:14, April 10, 2024 (EDT) | ||
@LinkTheLefty: Considering the "History of <x character> in <the cartoons they appear in>" articles are still waiting for their cigarette and tinder box before their execution via categorization <s>as much as we deeply, deeply regret that proposal</s>, we don't exactly see a "History of <x character> in Just The 1993 Movie" turning out well, unfortunately. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:46, April 12, 2024 (EDT) | |||
==== | {{Quote2|I believe rule 9 calls for an extension if I'm not mistaken.|LinkTheLefty|3=[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&diff=next&oldid=4182252 this revision]}} | ||
Well, ''before'' you extended the proposal, there were 19 voting users in total, if I'm not mistaken, and according to rule 9, more than half of the total amount of voters (in this case, more than 9.5 voters) must show up in a single voting option. If I get that right, that means at least 1 voting option must have more than 9.5 votes... and uh, the "Merge most of these, but keep Toad, Princess Daisy, Iggy, Spike, and Big Bertha separate" section has ''10'' votes, meaning that must have won.<br>''However'', you decided to vote too while extending the proposal, meaning that there's now 20 voting users, and the "Merge most of these, but keep Toad, Princess Daisy, Iggy, Spike, and Big Bertha separate" section now requires ''more'' than 10 votes... thus, 11.<br>Since you decided to cast in votes ''alongside'' extending the proposal, when it should have enough results to not require an extension, I'm honestly not sure if we should end the proposal now and remove subsequent votes and comments from prior the extension, or keep the extension for another week. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:00, April 12, 2024 (EDT) | |||
== | ==Miscellaneous== | ||
''None at the moment.'' | |||