Template talk:Character infobox: Difference between revisions

Template talk:Character infobox (edit)

Revision as of 23:39, March 2, 2024

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→‎Caption parameter?: new section

PnnyCrygr

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 Thoughts? [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 14:53, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
 :What would qualify as variants or not? I don't want to go into speculative territory where editors are arguing about, say, Bowser Jr. is a variant of Baby Bowser? Koopa Kid a variant of Baby Bowser? Can you think of more instances where is potential debate or was actual debate on what qualifies as variants or not? How were those settled if that's the case? {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:15, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
+::I'm not sure how to formally describe it, but basically cases where a character is created using another character as a basis. I recognize that both Bowser Jr. and Koopa Kid probably take inspiration from Baby Bowser, but I wouldn't consider those as variants. I guess a general rule of thumb would be, if you can describe one as the other, but insert-adjective-here, it counts. So Bowser, but skeleton, Dino Piranha, but junior (not sure what this says about Bowser Jr., I will admit I didn't think that far ahead), Naval Piranha, but bungee, etc. Eh, I don't know, sorry, but it's not that clear cut when it comes to species either. As for the last two questions, I'm not sure what you mean. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:36, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
+:::I'm just asking you to anticipate what discussions have been involved related to this. Like your examples might not invite debate, but you or others may have been involved in debates in MarioWiki on the relationships of some characters and species. I just think it's important to be aware of any potential relevant discussions in MarioWiki and see how they're resolved or may remain contentious. I'm not necessarily challenging your position, I just want us to think this very through before we make a bold change. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:40, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
+::::Honestly I'm going to oppose this idea, your second comment looks like this could get very messy and debatable. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:42, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
+== Add gender parameter ==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-15|Do not add}}
+This proposal aims to add a gender parameter to the character infobox. As stated in an above section, several other NIWA wikis have a gender parameter in their infobox, and I also wondered why this wiki doesn't do the same. I don't know if there's much of a case to make for adding a gender parameter, because several characters have a gender (just like how characters are each a different species), so it would make sense to add that characteristic into an infobox.
+Okay, so a bit of digression, but I think this can help with unverifiable uses of pronouns in the article. For example, I see [[Bleak]] being called a "he." Is there any source to back that claim? If so, would we rather do it within the article text or his listed gender in the infobox? I'm leaning toward the latter.
+Another question: if this passes, how would we handle this on articles of ambiguously characters like [[Birdo]] or [[Vivian]]? Should most articles require a citation for a character's gender in the infobox, including for each one for ambiguously gendered characters? An exception to this would be if it's widely known, such as how everyone knows that [[Luigi]] is a male.
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Game Gear}}<br>
+'''Deadline''': January 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT
+===Support===
+#{{user|Super Game Gear}}: As proposer
+===Oppose===
+#{{User|Swallow}} Pretty sure this should be obvious for any character without needing to state it. We also don't need to do everything that other NIWA wikis do.
+#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per Swallow.
+#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} The character's gender is already stated in the intro paragraph of their article as a pronoun. No need for a parameter then!
+#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Irrelevant padding, might as well do one for eye color. Per all.
+#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
+#{{User|Mario}} Such information should be easily gleaned from the opening paragraph.
+#{{User|YoYo}} it's something that is automatically worded into each article, there's no need at all to add it to the infobox.
+#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Not only is this stated in the article's opening by default, but we fear like at ''best'' this is just kind of unnecessary; at worst, however, it's just stapling a prime target for vandalism to articles. Especially in the case of [[Birdo|canonically-transgender]] [[Vivian|characters]]; we feel like adding this is a hot ticket to getting those articles even more protected than they already are.
+#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
+#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Considering my very first edit was on Birdo back in 2007 (whoa), if you asked me then, I'd probably say, "yeah, and let's get more gender categories too, etc." (maybe I would've been on board with pronoun citation if it was a widespread idea back then.) But wanting to do something and actually seeing it in practice are different things. Views change <small>- one of my first edits was also a treatise on canon policy, and after seeing where that line of thought can lead to, I have a ''very'' different viewpoint on it now -</small> my current view on this one is that these aren't -really- vital characteristics that need addressing in parameters and references. I see others put it in practice, I think it can tend to look cumbersome, and like Camwoodstock says, it invites bad-faith ridicule. Plus, this doesn't account for inconsistencies with subjects like Cloud N. Candy and Bonetail. For that Bleak example? Masculine pronouns are present in supplemental material like the Player's Guide, and as far as I know, there's no contradicting material, so that's that. If there's confusion, simply clarify on the talk page or an edit summary. What I can agree to as a general default is using "it" for gender-ambiguous creatures and "they" for gender-ambiguous characters, but we can probably use our heads if a character doesn't have explicit pronouns but they're generally modeled after depictions of other male or female characters of the species.
+#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
+#{{User|Mister Wu}} Especially considering [https://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/3ds/zelda-ocarina-of-time/4/2/ Miyamoto’s stance on the matter], this information is more likely to cause disagreement and conflicting edits, since quite a few times there’s not even a definite answer to what is supposed to be the gender of a character, at least in the original Japanese material. I’d say it’s better to rely on gendered pronouns or to explain the matter more in detail, when needed.
+#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
+#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all.
+#{{User|EvieMaybe}} gender was invented by big gender to sell more bathroom door signs. per all
+===Comments===
+Swallow, wanted to say that a character's gender is not always obvious at a glance. I've cited Birdo as an example, as looking at Birdo and Vivian does not immediately tell the reader about the gender controversy surrounding those two characters. [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 17:06, January 5, 2024 (EST)
+:The opening paragraphs of both articles do mention that they are transgender and have another section going into more detail about it. I think that's good enough. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:09, January 5, 2024 (EST)
+::Looking at Birdo and Vivian tells you they're probably female, which they are, regardless of whether they're transgender or not. I don't see how a gender field would help there. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:57, January 5, 2024 (EST)
+== Caption parameter? ==
+{{talk}}
+I am here to talk about the caption placed below the images. We have "Artwork from ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' for the Nintendo Switch" for the page of [[Mario]] However, other character infoboxes such as [[Captain Syrup]] have "''Wario Land: Shake It!'' artwork for Captain Syrup", which is redundant, because the character's name is already above the image. The standard caption for such images is "Artwork/Screenshot from (Game)." I'm wondering about the addition of a caption parameter, which can have:
+*Media - Artwork, Screenshot
+*Game - Anything under the sun
+Which could generate "(Artwork/Screenshot) from (Game). I'm sorry that I cannot code a sample, and this is simply not a proposal, either.
+Here's a sample mark-up.
+ <nowiki>{{character infobox
+|image=[[File:WLSSyrup.png|200px]]
+|imagetype=artwork
+|imagesource=''[[Wario Land: Shake It!]]''
+|first_appearance=''[[Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3]]'' ([[List of games by date#1994|1994]])
+|species=Human
+|latest_appearance=''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'' ([[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)|spirit]] cameo) ([[List of games by date#2018|2018]])
+|latest_portrayal=[[Hitomi Hirose]] ([[List of games by date#2008|2008]])
+}}
+</nowiki>
+This could create something like "Artwork from ''[[Wario Land: Shake It!]]''".
+{{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 22:39, March 2, 2024 (EST)