Talk:Chuckster: Difference between revisions

Talk:Chuckster (edit)

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Ahemtoday moved page Talk:Pianta Thrower to Talk:Chuckster: Per proposal.

Ahemtoday

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 == Rename back to Chuckster ==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|26-0|rename}}
 Per the title of this proposal, I would like to rename this article back to Chuckster. I have not provided a merge option as I personally do believe these Piantas do fulfill a specific, identifiable gameplay function that warrants retaining their separate article. We have articles on similar gameplay-specific variants of existing species (with [[Woozy Guy]] being brought up in the previous proposal), and the NPC quoted at the top of the article does provide a fairly solid definition of these specific Piantas - one that will chuck you upward or backward when spoken to.
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 #{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per proposal. The term gets used directly in-game, it's reasonable to conclude it applies to other Piantas who throw you in the same manner, and it's the most recognizable and likely-to-be-searched name.
 #{{User|Camwoodstock}} We're a per all voter! ...Seriously though, this is overdue--the in-game name should easily take priority over names only given in guides, just like we do on just about every other article. While mentioning the Pianta Thrower name in the article intro as an alternative name (like we do for other such cases of this) wouldn't be a bad idea, the article should probably just be named Chucksters to make it easy on everyone. ;P
+#{{User|MCD}} - Per proposal.
+#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Throw the Pianta.
+#{{User|Sdman213}} Chucking some support.
+#{{User|Shy Guy on Wheels}} Per all. It's literally the name used in-game, I really don't think it's that complex.
+#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
+#{{user|Lakituthequick}} Per all.
+#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per chucking this back to Chuckster.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Though I supported the previous proposal, I do think this reasoning makes sense. Per all.
+#{{User|MegaBowser64}} '''Rename back to Chuckster''' I guess everybody loved Chucksters all along
+#{{User|Biggestman}} Yeah let's change it to the name people actually know (and Love????) instead of a licensed guide
 ====Do nothing====
-<s>#{{user|7feetunder}} My stance is unchanged. The idea to rename this page to begin with wasn't mine; I always wanted to merge the thing, and I still do. As Hewer said on the last proposal, we don't have a separate article for the Volbonans stuck to walls that fling Mario when he captures them, and this is pretty much the same deal. I have no interest in undoing the rename either - the term "chuckster" may be official, but the definition we're trying to assign to it is still effectively fanon. The counterargument effectively boils down to "it's close enough", which is not convincing me.</s>
+<s>#{{user|7feetunder}} My stance is unchanged. The idea to rename this page to begin with wasn't mine; I always wanted to merge the thing, and I still do. As Hewer said on the last proposal, we don't have a separate article for the Volbonans stuck to walls that fling Mario when he captures them, and this is pretty much the same deal. I have no interest in undoing the rename either - the term "chuckster" may be official, but the definition we're trying to assign to it is still effectively fanon. The counterargument effectively boils down to "it's close enough", which is not convincing me.</s><br>
+<s>#{{User|Hewer}} The reason I supported the move was solely because of the most recent name policy, since I believe Pianta Thrower is the most recent name. The proposal doesn't really address this argument, just says that we should prioritise the older guide for some reason. Also, what most fans call it is not a valid argument for moving pages, see [[Spiny Shell (blue)|Blue Shell]].</s>
 ====Comments====
 With respect to 7feetunder, the Odyssey fork guys that fling you upwards are missing several charateristics of the Chucksters. "Chucksters" as I will call them here, are in several levels as a gameplay mechanic, announce their title on occasion, and it is mentioned elsewhere in the game that some Piantas are Chucksters, which would imply that Chucksters are a subtype or at least a common subculture of Pianta that involves throwing. Just because some Chucksters don't yell their name 100% of the time before throwing you does not mean that they are not Chucksters. Boo Buddies do not appear differently from other Boos in many games and do not announce that they are Boo Buddies but they are defined differently by their behavior, as a Chuckster should be. There are plenty of sources that name Chucksters as the Piantas that throw you, and even in the unlikely event of a merge, Chucksters should be Chucksters. If the fork guys actually got a distinct definition by both the game itself and other sources, they would actually deserve a page as well in my opinion. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 12:39, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 :OK, so I looked up a scan of the NP guide for context, and it seems that it uses "chuckster" specifically to refer to the throwing Piantas in PV5 - in other instances, such as the Delfino Plaza "[[Mario Toss|thrown through the window]]" Shine and [[Petey Piranha Strikes Back]], it just calls them "Piantas." Other guides apparently use the term more broadly, so there's a lot of conflicting sources here. I'll retract my outright opposition, but I'm still kinda iffy on this. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 13:00, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
+Whether this page has merit to stand on its own is not relevant to the question of what the page name should be, and I'm not a particularly big fan of how these two issues have been conflated with each other in the previous proposal. "Should this gameplay construct be renamed?" and "Should this page be merged with the main Pianta article?" are two separate questions that should be handled by two separate proposals. If the desire for a merge is there, a second proposal to that effect should be made after this one, dealing with exclusively THAT issue, and if THAT one passes, the name of the sub-section that gets merged into the Pianta page would be taken from the current page name, as determined by THIS proposal. Keep issues that ought to be separate separate. - {{User:Gabumon/sig}} 17:09, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
+With regards to Hewer, the argument actually does fully addresses the subject of your complaint if you read the entire statement. There is an NPC in the game itself (this is the important part) that introduces himself as a "chuckster", followed by a reasonably informative definition of what that term means, followed by a reinforcement of him being a "chuckster", as well as a demonstration of what talking to a chuckster results in (getting thrown somewhere). The term is then used by at least six other NPCS who all refer to themselves as such and perform the same action, with the term never being attributed to an NPC who does not exhibit this behavior. That this reoccurs in the game itself seven times with no false attributions establishes a clear pattern and is reasonable course to accept "chuckster" as the de-facto label attributed to these kinds of NPCs. The Mariowiki Naming Policy lists in-game information as the top priority, with third party guides only occupying the second tier of priority and thus being considered irrelevant if an in-game source for a name can be provided. The references made to the Nintendo Power guide here merely exist to supplement the argument, not to act as its linchpin. That guide is equally as irrelevant as the Mario Party 8 guide, as they both occupy tier 2 in the Naming Policy hierachy. - {{User:Gabumon/sig}} 04:18, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
+: And also to quote, the Super Mario Bros. Movie: "You can't escape me!" "What?" "BLUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEE SHEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLL!" [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:05, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+:: I honestly thought this reply was kind of nonsensical at first glance but no actually you raise a valid point. If the most recent source including non-game information applies, then the article actually SHOULD be called Blue Shell now lol. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 09:35, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+:::[[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Move Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and other related species|Precedent begs to differ]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:56, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+:I did read the whole proposal, and I'm also aware that they are called chucksters in-game, sorry if the wording was misleading - my problem is that the Pianta Thrower name is more recent, and the [[MarioWiki:Naming|naming policy]] says to prioritize newer names. Admittedly, the policy is a bit vague as to whether a newer lower-priority source trumps an older higher-priority source, but it does use a Prima guide as an example of a source that could provide newer names, so I'm assuming recency is more important than source priority (at least in regards to the higher priority tiers). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:56, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+::For what it's worth, [[Banzai Bill]] is still currently on that name and not Bomber Bill because thus far, no game has used the Bomber Bill name. Don't think that's a part of any express part of our editing code, but that is another case of us using an "older" name because the newer names have only appeared in stuff that's lower on our priority. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:54, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+::Per Camwoodstock, not using "Bomber Bill", "Blue Shell", etc. because they haven't been referred to as such in a primary in-game source is fine because as you stated in response to me earlier, there is precedent. However, does that same precedent not apply to Pianta Thrower vs. Chuckster? If the argument for those other names not being used is the lack of primary source with regards to the games, then that applies to Pianta Thrower by that logic as well. The Pianta Thrower name is never used in-game while a previous name (Chuckster) prominently was, and therefore the previous name should take precedence. Furthermore, Chucksters appeared under the name Chucksters in the 3D All-Stars release, which is the most recent appearance of the characters, which should trump Pianta Thrower in terms of recency regardless. --[[User:Fun With Despair|Fun With Despair]] ([[User talk:Fun With Despair|talk]]) 22:21, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
+:::The difference with Bomber Bill is that a) the character appeared frequently and recently as Banzai Bill and b) "Bomber Bill" was only used in Mario Portal and the movie, which both had a number of oddities that we didn't move pages over, and to my knowledge this doesn't apply to Mario Party 8's Prima guide. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:06, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
+::::Per FWD's comment, the Pianta Throwers' page directly lists their most recent appearance as ''[[Super Mario 3D All-Stars]]''. [[MarioWiki:Naming#Naming an article|Our naming policy]] mentions that the most common modern English name should be used for an article's title - most SMS guidebooks refer to the throwing Piantas as Chucksters, making it common, and the text has been left unchanged in the re-release, making it modern. As such, the name Chuckster should take priority regardless of the Mario Party 8 guidebook's oddities or lack thereof. In the event all of this falls through some fairly specific cracks in our policies, [[MarioWiki:Naming#Name changes|the section on name changes]] only mentions changing names in "certain cases" and leaves it up to the users to decide how aliases/nicknames should be dealt with, which the TPP is essentially already handling on some level. - [[User:Turboo|Turboo]] ([[User talk:Turboo|talk]]) 03:43, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
+:::::It's crossed our mind we could probably make "newer names from a low priority don't take priority if a higher-priority name exists from an older source" an official part of our policies later seeing as that's how we handle [[Spiny Shell (blue)]] and [[Banzai Bill]], but that's definitely out if the scope of this proposal.<br>Also @FWD, we should've made it clear that we brought up Bomber Bill in how we already do this sort of thing even without a newer source that confirms the name. Ergo, even if 3DAS didn't exist (which we... genuinely forgot it did for a moment, OOPS!), Chuckster would take priority for being their direct in-game name; as even though the "Pianta Thrower" name is technically newer, it also never appears in a game as far as we can tell. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:07, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
+:::::Fair enough, I didn't really consider that 3D All-Stars would count as a newer appearance of the name. I'll retract my opposition. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:46, September 22, 2023 (EDT)