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| Also, I'm writing this not because I think it'll convince our anon friend over here (it certainly won't) but because it's something I have thought about and it's something I want to refer back to when there are future talks about coverage, and basically I want to expand on what I said about "casting too wide of a net". And the ''tl:dr'' of it is: The wiki isn't ''really'' about the "Mario fictional universe", or rather it's not primarily about that, and rather it is about ''Mario'' and its derived (and partner) series as a real-word media franchise. | | Also, I'm writing this not because I think it'll convince our anon friend over here (it certainly won't) but because it's something I have thought about and it's something I want to refer back to when there are future talks about coverage, and basically I want to expand on what I said about "casting too wide of a net". And the ''tl:dr'' of it is: The wiki isn't ''really'' about the "Mario fictional universe", or rather it's not primarily about that, and rather it is about ''Mario'' and its derived (and partner) series as a real-word media franchise. |
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| One of our policy page (I think it was Chronology?) had a statement among the lines "We must remember that [[Donkey Kong (game)|Donkey Kong]] is the root of everything we created" and while worded in a corny way, the gist still holds true. The Mario and Donkey Kong characters debuted in the arcade game, Mario soon became popular and spawned a big media franchise, which the wiki is ostensibly about. Then, a good decade later, the Donkey Kong character (actually a separate character, but irrelevant in IP terms and a distinction Nintendo does not always strictly adher to) was rebooted with his own successful video game that did away with pretty much all the old arcade trappings and was distinct from the Mario games of the time. And certainly one could say, ''Donkey Kong'' (or more precisely ''Donkey Kong '''Country''''') is a franchise in its own right and shouldn't be seen as a spin-off subordinate to the Mario series - that's a very fair and valid opinion, but, the shared origin in the 1981 arcade game means it make some sense for a website that call itself "Super Mario Wiki" to also document Donkey Kong stuff. Likewise with Wario, Yoshi etc. who were created ''for'' Mario games, were major actors in those and then spawned their own franchise with varying degress of cross-reference back to the "main" Mario franchise. | | One of our policy page (I think it was Chronology?) had a statement among the lines "We must remember that [[Donkey Kong (Game)|Donkey Kong]] is the root of everything we created" and while worded in a corny way, the gist still holds true. The Mario and Donkey Kong characters debuted in the arcade game, Mario soon became popular and spawned a big media franchise, which the wiki is ostensibly about. Then, a good decade later, the Donkey Kong character (actually a separate character, but irrelevant in IP terms and a distinction Nintendo does not always strictly adher to) was rebooted with his own successful video game that did away with pretty much all the old arcade trappings and was distinct from the Mario games of the time. And certainly one could say, ''Donkey Kong'' (or more precisely ''Donkey Kong '''Country''''') is a franchise in its own right and shouldn't be seen as a spin-off subordinate to the Mario series - that's a very fair and valid opinion, but, the shared origin in the 1981 arcade game means it make some sense for a website that call itself "Super Mario Wiki" to also document Donkey Kong stuff. Likewise with Wario, Yoshi etc. who were created ''for'' Mario games, were major actors in those and then spawned their own franchise with varying degress of cross-reference back to the "main" Mario franchise. |
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| I gave Rhythm Heaven as an example of things going too far: Rhythm Heaven includes a lot of clues it's set in the same fictional universe as the WarioWare series (including both Rhythm Heaven Fever and RH Megamix having modes where you play as WarioWare characters) and in turn the two most recent WarioWare games include a lot of cameos from Rhythm Heaven characters and location. Thus, if only fictional connections mattered, it would only make sense to extend the wiki's coverage to the Rhythm Heave series as a whole, right? | | I gave Rhythm Heaven as an example of things going too far: Rhythm Heaven was not created as a spin-off to WarioWare, or anything else. It started as its own thing (albeit with some quick nods to WarioWare as a result of its shared staff and style), and slowly over time, the two franchises would increasingly reference each-other. But while you can say RH and WW are set in the same fictional universe, you '''can't''' reasonably say Rhythm Heaven is a "Mario spin-off", and retroactively making articles for all the Rhythm Heaven games and characters would be a weird and messy leap to make. And by that process, neither are Banjo or Conker. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:26, August 11, 2020 (EDT) |
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| But the deal, Rhythm Heaven was not created as a spin-off to WarioWare, or anything else. It started as its own thing (albeit with some quick nods to WarioWare as a result of its shared staff and style), and slowly over time, the two franchises would increasingly reference each-other. But while you can say RH and WW are set in the same fictional universe, you '''can't''' reasonably say Rhythm Heaven is a "Mario spin-off" or even a "WarioWare spin-off", and retroactively making articles for all the Rhythm Heaven games and characters would be a weird and messy leap to make. And by that process, neither are Banjo or Conker. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:26, August 11, 2020 (EDT)
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| Thought I'd add this to the conversation: https://www.dkvine.com/?p=features&page=what_dku
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| {{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :That is a fan-made construct through and through. It’s not relevant here. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:33, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
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| I disagree, I think it holds a lot of credibility since Diddy Kong Racing is an official Nintendo release, and contains characters (like Banjo/Conker) that we would have considered unrelated otherwise. The Donkey Kong connection is also alluded to in the official reveal trailer of Banjo and Kazooie in Smash Bros Ultimate. Not to say that Conker's Bad Fur Day is canon to the Mario Universe (it's not), but I believe that Banjo-Kazooie IS, as well as Conker's original incarnation from Diddy Kong Racing. They are both allies of Donkey and Diddy Kong. I get that there is no official description of Mario's world, nor any detailed map of it's continent and landscape, but I do suggest more detail be added to Banjo's page covering his games, as they should be considered "canon".{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :Anything fan-made doesn't hold any credibility at all to us. Also, if the games themselves are not within our coverage, then we don't need to fully cover them on Banjo's article either. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 16:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I suggest reading Glowsquid's comment regarding our coverage and how "canon" fits into that. (Also, the Mario franchise [[MarioWiki:Canonicity|has no canon]].) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:33, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::"There are a lot of assumptions being made here, and it does not change the fact that it 'is' a crossover linking all three franchises." Pretty interesting you said assumptions are being made (including the assumption there is a "Super Mario Universe"; there isn't), because I think what Glowsquid is saying is just matter of fact sort of thing. If anything I think you're connecting really loose dots that don't really exist and referring to other constructs from other fans that carry little relevance to the wiki. Due to the shaky foundation, you simply cannot write a quality article that really reflects what MarioWiki is set to do, document things, leave out speculation. "This can not be compared to "cameos" or 'Smash Bros' because those are two wildly different things." This one looks like a circular argument by assertion and special pleading? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:25, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| I'm not talking about strictly fan-based speculation, I'm going off of official references.I think it's pretty foolish to assume that the Mario universe has no real continuity, it very clearly does in most games not directly produced by Miyamoto. Especially in the RPG games which have clear sequels. Just because there isn't an official Nintendo timeline doesn't mean that these games don't have any continuity to them. Even Mario Odyssey references previous encounters with Bowser, such as the ones in Super Mario World and Mario 64. The way I see it, Banjo deserves a quality article the same way other Donkey Kong characters do. Because for all intents and purposes, he became a Donkey Kong spinoff character, and the first two games were released on a Nintendo platform. No wild fan speculation needed here.{{unsigned|172.83.40.74}}
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| :First, please sign your comments with four ~ at the end. Second, although I wasn't part of this discussion before, it looks to me like everyone else here has made it clear enough that Banjo is not a Donkey Kong character, nor is his series even a Donkey Kong spinoff. At this point, this discussion is just going in circles. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:35, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| Not at all, I haven't recieved a single reasonable explanation why Banjo shouldn't be considered a DK character. I hear claims of "fan speculation", yet in a twist of irony the explanations I'm getting could also be considered "fan speculation". Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house. The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together, and that coupled with the other official references I mentioned earlier, confirms Banjo and his games as canon. At least those not exclusive to Microsoft consoles. [[Special:Contributions/172.83.40.74|172.83.40.74]] 19:47, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :Is there any valid proof of this, directly from the makers of the games themselves rather than a fan-vine? If so, please link it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:51, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :A photo in the house ''is'' a cameo, as is the supposed cut easter egg of DK appearing as part of the puzzle minigame. Banjo-Kazooie had [[Jiggywikki:Dream: Land of Giants|a very long and varied development period]] (which I may add long predated Diddy Kong Racing's development period), and at no point was it a "spinoff" of DK any more than Banjo-Tooie is a spinoff of Sabre Wulf. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::”Banjo was always intended as a DK spinoff, and in fact there was even going to be more DIRECT ties with a photo of DK himself being in Banjo's house.”
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| ::Fictionally unrelated games sharing cameos of one another isn’t uncommon.
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| ::”The intention from the start was to link these two franchises together”
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| ::Even if there was, the IPs are quite far removed by now. Ergo, the Banjo-Kazooie series doesn’t warrant coverage. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:38, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::You're not really looking at the perspective of the game designers. They do put nods to earlier games for players to pick up on the nostalgia. It's not a comment on continuity as much as a game sprinkling references to other games a lot of players have played. Sure, they reference sometimes, but this doesn't point to any solid ground for an established timeline. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:24, August 26, 2021 (EDT)
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| There is less evidence to suggest that Banjo 'isnt' connected, than ones that support his inclusion in the greater Mario universe. Another few tidbits I missed was the "Gnawty" character being included in Click Clock Wood in Banjo-Kazooie, and Banjo's likely relation with the "Brothers' Bear" in DKC3. Sharing a similar naming scheme. With all of this evidence and more, I feel it's foolish not to include Banjo in a greater capacity on this Wiki. I feel the intention both during and after the development of Diddy Kong Racing was to link the two franchises together, as a sort of DK "Expanded Universe" of sorts. [[Special:Contributions/71.19.249.33|71.19.249.33]] 20:35, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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| :Donkey Kong appears on ''The Simpsons'' several times. This is enough evidence to support that Kongo Jungle was intended to be in Springfield and thus Homer should get a page, right? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:02, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I think yet another point you're missing is that Banjo is not a Nintendo property. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:10, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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