Editing Talk:Socially Awkward Piranha Plant

==Merge with Fire Piranha Plant==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|17-0|Merge with Fire Piranha Plant}}
Inspired by the ongoing [[Talk:Johnson|Johnson]] talk page proposal, I'm making a proposal to merge Socially Awkward Piranha Plant into the [[Fire Piranha Plant]] article (Other appearances section?). The reasoning is quite simple, really, it's just a joke image posted by Nintendo on their social platforms several years ago, and the three-sentence long article pretty much says all that needs to be said about it. "Socially Awkward Piranha Plant" by technicality is not a real character, having no character depth, no personality. The use of a stock artwork further proves that Socially Awkward Piranha Plant has no defining traits that can be differentiated from Fire Piranha Plant. letting Socially Awkward Piranha Plant have its own page may inspire someone to read too much into the caption of it spitting a fireball at everyone, as if it were an event that happened in the world of ''Super Mario''. That event never happened, and the image was only ever meant to be a joke.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Game Gear}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{user|Super Game Gear}} Per my above points.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Sparks}} Behold! Another possible BJAODN entry. Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} BJAODN all the way! [[File:SMW-JumpingPiranhaFire.png]]
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} GETS AN ARTICLE / IT'S SENT TO BJAODN (per all)
#{{User|Tails777}} The is 100% a BJAODN candidate. Per proposal.
#{{user|Arend}} [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Comments 19|I've said it before]], this NEEDS to be on BJAODN for the hilarious title alone.
#{{User|Biggestman}} goodbye my beautiful, beautiful baby boy... i will miss you dearly. P-P-per aaalllll.............
#{{User|Mario}} [[File:DrMW Piranha Patient 1.png|60px]]
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} [[File:RHMM Dr Crygor Miss.png|x60px]]
#{{user|Blhte}} It's looks like definitely for a sake of joke... isn't it???
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} hooray for less infobox bloat!
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} This article is begging to be put into BJAODN! Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} [[File:PeteyhurtPiT.PNG|40px]]
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Please burn this.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} This is as Socially Awkward as this [[File:SMBW screenshot Piped Piranha Plant.png|35px]] gets. Per all socially awkward people. This is for Bad Jokes, (the Socially) Awkward, (and) Other Deleted Nonsense.
#{{User|Dark-Boy-1up}} We love you SAPP (Socially Awkward Piranha Plant). Now we will see you in an article which more people search for.

===Oppose===

===Comments===
For the record, this is the edit summary when the article was created:  (officially named character: check. is given some semblance of a story: check.) [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 20:06, December 31, 2023 (EST)
:That further adds to the point of why the page should be redirected, if the user basically created it as a joke. [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 20:27, December 31, 2023 (EST)
::Not sure where you got this conviction that I made this page "as a joke". Per an extrapolation of the current "minor NPC" policy, this decidedly ''minor'' character deserves a page because it has a unique name and is given a little bit of context. I don't care what you do with this page either way but I'd sure appreciate you not assume bad faith in my contributions, tyvm. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:37, December 31, 2023 (EST)
:::I don't see why this deserves a page though. It's a one-time parody of an image macro meme that just so happens to be posted by an official Nintendo Facebook account (and nowhere else) in the previous decade, nearly 10 years ago; it's decidedly a joke from the account manager. The image itself should be preserved here on the wiki, but I don't think it really needs to have an article. In fact, I think it's pretty understandable that many others would think this article was made as a joke, because seriously, who would decide to give a one-time parody of a meme only found on social media its own article? The fact that this article is the only one of its kind, in spite of many image macros Nintendo accounts have made, kind of proves that.<br>If the article was made purely due to an extrapolation on our [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|minor NPCs policy]] (which, frankly, I couldn't spot), then honestly, I think it's better to make a proposal to clarify the policy better, rather than make a silly article for the sake of pointing out a loophole. Even then, I personally wouldn't consider Socially Awkward Piranha Plant to fall under the minor NPC policy, because that implies Nintendo's Facebook account is a playable game (still though, more clarity on the policy is always nice). {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:42, January 4, 2024 (EST)
...While I do truly think it's outrageous that this page can stand on its own, I'm once again being impulsive and overly rude, apologies, again. (was going to change the wording after hyped but it fucking totally turned into RIP) But meanwhile, it would be acceptable if a page could be dedicated to recording image macro memes by Nintendo's social account I think. {{User:Blhte/sig}} 03:56, January 1, 2024 (EST)
:Ah,  maybe a article that is titled "List of official macros made by Nintendo"? Sure it can! And then it would list every macro made by Nintendo social media accounts from A to Z. {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 04:12, January 1, 2024 (EST)
::While we aren't ''opposed'' to a blanket page about these images, we feel like that'd be better suited for a gallery, honestly--a ''lot'' of those are very visual-reliant and some don't even have concretely defined characters, such as the "characters" those from those "Create-a-quote" fill in the blank images they made from around 2011-2014; how do you even make a section for a character whose ''character'' is implied and for the reader to decide for themselves? (That's rhetorical, don't answer it, you'll only hurt yourself.) We're rather doubtful there's continuity between the [[Spiny Shell (blue)|blue shell]] in the "Create-a-quote" versus the one from a German Facebook post, even if there is technically a language barrier. (...oh! since we realize maybe not everyone is as familiar with what we're talking about here--um, [[Gallery:Spiny Shell (blue)|just go here]] and CTRL+F "Create-a-quote" and it's that image and the ones right after it. we know there's at least a few other create-a-quotes out there, but finding those on short notice is difficult. apologies! ;P) {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:50, January 3, 2024 (EST)
:::All official "create-a-caption" pics that I'm aware of on the wiki are collected over at [[:Category:Image macros]], if that helps. Also, I wanna say your vote in this proposal paints Socially Awkward Piranha Plant as a cousin of Bad Luck Brian--but his shoes [[:File:Facebook Nintendo 2014-05-29a.png|have already been filled]] by another Mario enemy! {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:59, January 3, 2024 (EST)

: Well, if this was created because of the "minor NPC" policy... *grimaces* I got rid of my vote because I just realized that it wasn't created as a joke and has a name and some backstory and everything. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:47, January 1, 2024 (EST)
Could we include an option to merge to Piranha Plant instead? It is based on a Fire Piranha Plant render, but I don't think the intent is that it's a Fire Piranha Plant. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 11:47, January 3, 2024 (EST)
:"SPITS FIREBALL AT EVERYONE" [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:45, January 3, 2024 (EST)
::Actually, it's normal Piranha Plant's ''Mario Party DS'' render. And normal ones have spit fire on rare occasions too. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:54, January 3, 2024 (EST)
:::Rare occasions? I've never seen a Piranha Plant at a summer party so you can be on to something. 😜 {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:26, January 3, 2024 (EST)

@Mario — The indentation on your vote is messing with the vote numbers, though. Maybe you could replace it with a caret (^) to the same effect? [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:29, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:From my end, the numbers do seem to count correctly. I already voted; I was just trying to directly comment on TheUndescribableGhost's vote, which is unprecedented in the wiki I suppose, but again, this kind of article is uh... pretty special. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:34, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::I know you're responding to TheUndescribableGhost's vote, and that's why I suggested using a caret as an alternative. What browser are you using? I use both Brave and Firefox, and the vote numbers don't display properly on either. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:38, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:::Firefox, Vector 2022 skin. Monobook seems to display as intended. Oh well, I'll remove the comment. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:44, January 4, 2024 (EST)
::::I just now realized I super-derped... I didn't notice you already voted and didn't quite understand what you meant by that. Removing that comment is probably for the best anyways, to avoid confusion. That, or converting it into a regular comment in this section. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 23:58, January 4, 2024 (EST)
:::::Troo. Other wikis with voting actually do format direct responses to votes this way. I could've put it in the comments section, but it doesn't have the directness I wanted from my indented comment. {{User:Mario/sig}} 00:06, January 5, 2024 (EST)
::::::I suppose so... I'm still (figuratively, of course) hitting myself over mistaking your comment for a vote. That certainly was...''awkward'', of me. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 13:08, January 5, 2024 (EST)
:::::::Hey, at least you didn't spit fire all over the place! Mama mia! [[File:Hot Foot burns Mario SMB3 artwork.jpg|90px]] {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:15, January 5, 2024 (EST)

So, I've been reflecting on this and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdLFZ5RAPTU Ahehehauhe] and I have to wonder - would an article on (forced) memes be a better home for this sort of stuff? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:10, January 6, 2024 (EST)
:I personally don't want that. [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 14:12, January 6, 2024 (EST)
::That's a no for me, dawg. [[User:MegaBowser64|BOWSER...]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 15:34, January 15, 2024 (EST)

== Post-proposal discussion ==

My thoughts on Arend's comment, which come in late enough that I couldn't include them as a direct reply:<br>
"There are no other articles like this, therefore we should never do it" is a fallacy on its own, but I'd say more similar articles haven't been created yet moreso because SAPP happens to be a unique case. The fact that this character's source material is "too obscure" and that alone supposedly makes it unfit for coverage is not something I can agree with; how recently would the meme have to be posted to count as "not obscure"? Two weeks ago? Yesterday? Whether it's a joke from a social media intern is also irrelevant considering its posting had to be approved in the first place. In fact, around 2013-2017, Nintendo's official accounts were extensively [[:Category:Image macros|cutting their teeth]] [https://web.archive.org/web/20160514000504/https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/731170778276712448 on memes] as an attempt to expand their reach; on the surface, SAPP indeed seems like an intern's mere joke, but there is context to support the idea it was very much part of a corporate-mandated marketing campaign of some sort.<br>To address the second paragraph, this meme counts as a piece of media, it presents a narative however basic it may be, and features an actual named character. I acknowledge this meme isn't a game, hence my use of the word "extrapolation"; the minor NPC policy may only cover video games, but the wiki's scope spreads over much more diverse media, from comics, to cartoons, to quiz cards, and I don't see how an official internet meme has no place within such a broad scope nor how it's so absurd that a character pertaining to it is given a perfectly valid article. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:08, January 15, 2024 (EST)
: Ah, great. Now I feel bad about literally posting the thing to merge. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:16, January 16, 2024 (EST)
: As we mentioned in the proposal comments, we wouldn't be opposed to something such as a gallery page showcasing the social media memes in specific--maybe as part of a move to increase coverage of Nintendo's social media? You're not wrong that these should be recognized somewhere, rather than just kinda farting around in a media-only category. However, we feel that articles for each individual "character" in them is... To put it bluntly, very silly, especially since in the extreme cases, we'd end up with ''two pages'' for a character-ized version of the [[Spiny Shell (blue)|''Mario Kart'' blue shell]]. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:08, January 17, 2024 (EST)
::I don't understand the blue shell example. Neither of those {{file link|Facebook MarioKartDE 2017-05-11.jpg|two}} {{file link|Twitter NintendoItalia 2020-01-18.jpg|memes}} present the blue shell as a separate character. Heck, they don't even personify the item; they merely describe the circumstances you'd "make acquaintance" with one, but still very obviously present the item as we know it. Whereas how many (Fire) Piranha Plants have been called "Socially Awkward Piranha Plant" and how many of them have been shown to spit fireballs because they're very shy? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:07, January 17, 2024 (EST)
:::By the second Blue Spiny Shell we meant {{file link|NI Create a quote Illustration 1.jpg|this one}}, where it's implied by what little the image gives off (since it's meant to be a mad libs) that the Spiny Shell somehow is at fault, and not an individual that threw it. This isn't that big of a stretch seeing as the other Create-a-quotes [https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/515214180073611264 do indeed feature unique "characters", mind you]. Also, if simply having some form of name is enough to warrant a wholly individualized article with simply zero other contributing factors, {{file link|Facebook Nintendo 2014-05-29a.png|we've got another problem, because it turns out this situation isn't even unique to just a (fire) Piranha Plant}}, yet obviously, only the Piranha Plant got an article. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:34, January 17, 2024 (EST)
::::That Goomba is simply called "Goomba" in the meme's description, though. ("Goomba is heading off on vacation!") While I'm aware of the #BadLuckGoomba hashtag after it, I simply erred on the side of caution and decided not to give it a bespoke article due to the conflicting naming. Also, SAPP does have contributing factors: as I have already stated <small>about 2 times now</small>, it's given a brief narrative (goes to a party) and some characterization other Piranha Plants don't have (is socially awkward). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:21, January 17, 2024 (EST)
:::::Bad Luck Goomba also has a narrative of a sort (it went on a summer beach vacation) and characterization most Goombas don't (it's more unlucky than the average goomba)--the literal only semantic difference we can think of is that his name is from a hashtag, whereas the Piranha Plant's name is from the actual post body. And to be honest, we don't exactly think a name originating from a tag and not the textual body when both are part of the post anyways really makes much of a difference. It doesn't really matter to us anyhow, seeing as we don't think ''either'' of them warrant bespoke articles to be fair---but we do wanna make it clear that the thread of logic behind this article wouldn't exactly rule out a Bad Luck Goomba article had it not been merged already. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:12, January 17, 2024 (EST)
::::::The obvious course whether SAPP has or doesn't have a page of its own is to put "(Bad Luck) Goomba" on [[Goomba]]'s article similarly to what was done with the plant. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:32, January 17, 2024 (EST)

This may be outside the scope of this discussion, but after I added the article to [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters]], [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki%3ABJAODN%2FCharacters&curid=81105&diff=4116299&oldid=4116281 it was removed] with the reasoning that it's still on the mainspace, and the proposal itself didn't aim to put it in BJAODN. I understand this reasoning, but many users (including myself, though I didn't state it before) were adamant on adding this article to BJAODN. Should we add it back, replace it with a comment among the lines of "(''At one point, there was an article on this image macro.'')", or just leave it removed? [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:36, January 17, 2024 (EST)
:We don't see why not? There's no rule in the BJAODN saying that you can't add something because a proposal didn't say for it--if proposals were needed to stick things on BJAODN, it'd probably be very vacant. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:37, January 17, 2024 (EST)
::I see. I'm leaning towards a comment with explanation to avoid repeated information. '''EDIT:''' I added it back as a comment. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 14:46, January 17, 2024 (EST)
:::as the user who originally removed it, that's fine with me {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:21, January 17, 2024 (EST)