Editing Talk:List of chronological references

The Chronology is rather confusing. By combining other games that are related to the main games, I think ''this'' will do. 

*''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''
*''Yoshi's Story''
*''Yoshi Island DS''
*''Yoshi Touch and Go''
*''Mario & Luigi Partners In Time'' (Past)
*''Donkey Kong''
*''Donkey Kong Jr.''
*''Donkey Kong 2''
*''Mario Bros.''
*''Donkey Kong 3''
*''Super Mario Bros. Deluxe'' (''Super Mario Bros.'' & ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels'')
*''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*''Super Mario World''
*''Super Mario Bros. 2''
*''Super Mario Land''
*''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins''
*''Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3''
*''Yoshi''
*''Yoshi's Cookie''
*''The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening''
*''Yoshi's Safari''
*''Wario's Woods''
*''Super Mario 64''
*''BS Super Mario US''
*''Luigi's Mansion''
*''Super Mario Sunshine''
*''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''
*''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' (present)
*''New Super Mario Bros.''
*''Super Mario Galaxy''
*''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story''
*''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''
*''Super Mario Galaxy 2''
*''Super Mario 3DS''

Because ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' is said that it was not the prequel to ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and was not the direct sequel to ''Super Mario Bros.'' or ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels''. U.S confirmed ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' to take place after the events on Subcon. But this:

*''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''
*''Yoshi's Story''
*''Yoshi Island DS''
*''Yoshi Touch and Go''
*''Mario & Luigi Partners In Time'' (Past)
*''Donkey Kong''
*''Donkey Kong Jr.''
*''Donkey Kong 2''
*''Mario Bros.''
*''Donkey Kong 3''
*''Super Mario Bros. Deluxe'' (''Super Mario Bros.'' & ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels'')
*''Super Mario Bros. 2''
*''BS Super Mario US''
*''Super Mario Bros. 3''
*''Super Mario World''
*''Super Mario Land''
*''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins''
*''Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3''
*''Yoshi''
*''Yoshi's Cookie''
*''Yoshi's Safari''
*''Wario's Woods''
*''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars''/''The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening''
*''Super Mario 64''
*''Luigi's Mansion''
*''Super Mario Sunshine''
*''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga''
*''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' (present)
*''New Super Mario Bros.''
*''Super Mario Galaxy''
*''Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story''
*''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''
*''Super Mario Galaxy 2''
*''Super Mario 3D Land''

I think '''''these''''' are the timeline that works perfectly, despite I've forgotten some games. Since ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' said that Mario was not seen for a long time, ignoring the time when Mario went to Subcon. ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' was like a spin-off that just eventually happened unknownly sometime after ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels'' (because ''The Lost Levels'' '''directly''' toke place after ''Super Mario Bros.'') Yes, it was not a direct sequel, but the game happened after ''The Lost Levels'' and ''BS Super Mario USA'' (''Super Mario Bros. 2'''s direct sequel) happened soon before ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' itself. After ''BS Super Mario USA'' was over, Wart disappeared again, he never made a war in Subcon.

''Wario's Woods'' '''take place after''' ''Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land'' while Toad was never seen that time and Mario had adventures with his old best friend. Wario certainly wanted to have his revenge on Mario by attacking the Mushroom Kingdom. Birdo first went to the good side some years after ''BS Super Mario USA''.

''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' 's timeline take place several years after ''BS Super Mario USA'', ''The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening'' 's timeline takes place at the same time, Wart has several years to have a good manner and acts like an ally who haven't made antagonism on Koholing Island. Link was sleeping, leading him to Koholint Island, the new dream world, due to the fact of being subconscious.

The past times such as these games were confusing us alot. I was checking the Zelda Timeline, and give me some hints, this one would certainly be the accepted timeline.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 00:00, 3 August 2011 (EDT)

== That's a really weird article. ==

Like, really really weird. The Mario series has no continuity, so no timeline.
And by the way, Yoshi's Island DS depicts the birth of Yoshi at the end, so it should lead into Yoshi's Story. Just saying.
That article is nonsense anyway. [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 11:34, 6 October 2012 (EDT)
:I feel there is some merit to having ''somewhere'' to put "[Thing] is explicitely stated to be set after/a specific ammount of time following [another thing]", but yeah, this page is... not good. Not to mention it seems to be pushing fan theories as canon. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 11:46, 6 October 2012 (EDT)
::The ''Mario'' series ''has'' a timeline and continuity. It keeps producing follow-ups. By the way, this article is also about chronoligical references, hinting to be after/before a game. Like ''Super Mario Sunshine'' is obviously after ''Super Mario World'' and ''Super Mario Sunshine''. This article might be improved someday. Note that Princess Peach has a birthday as well (''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''). Or this article can be like the ''Zelda Timeline'' article from the Zelda Wiki.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 17:36, 6 October 2012 (EDT)
:::I don't disagree, I'm a Mariologist myself. But following this wiki's rules, the Mario series has no continuity. Even then, this article should be about references in games to other games that establish a continuity, but not fan-made stuff (making up a timeline for instance). For instance, Mario Sunshine does make references to SMB3, SMW? SM64 and LM, but then only SMB, SMBTLL, SMB2, SMB3, SMW, SM64 and LM should be listed under it. Well, all main series games are obviously the "main" continuity so they should all be listed, but yeah. Well, I could re-write the article in the way I mean (because I can't explain well), if you want. You can always undo it anyway. [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 19:59, 6 October 2012 (EDT)

I don't know. Each new installments of the ''Super Mario'' series follows the ''Mario'' series's story, even though it doesn't look like that to those who follows the wiki's protocol (not all of them), it's actually as if the ''Mario'' series has a continuity. I'm pretty sure that's the case. Most installments has references from their predecessors confirming to be actual sequels / follow-ups (indirect sequels) or prequels. Prequels most came from other sub-series, where they are also part of the main story.

The ''Mario'' series changed right after the E3 2009 trailers of ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' and ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' by the developers, having most installments of the ''Mario'' series to have "stories as little as possible" that time. The story doesn't matter anymore, and there aren't much of chonological references. It's up to us to notice the references by ourselves. The Japanese sources and infos are reliable, like where it's said that ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' is after ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', while we sometimes mess up the timeline of Mario. They could be quite helpful for writting down the chronological references.

This article can not only tell the references, and obvious theories on whether it's after or before a ''Mario'' game, but reveal the confirmations of being sequels or prequels, directly or indirectly.

I should add one more thing, it should be reminded that ''Mario'' had and will always have a timeline.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 00:49, 7 October 2012 (EDT)
:Yes. But putting the whole main series in each game when there are no references doesn't follow that idea - Donkey Kong makes no references to Yoshi's Island for instance, neither does Super Mario 64 (it does use some same music, but that's not a STORY reference). Story references mean the appearance of a character (not a species) from another game (which adds said game and the rest of its series into the game's "canon"), or a direct story reference (NSMB2 happening some time after NSMBW, SPM happening after both PM and TTYD, Peach's bio in Mario Superstar Baseball that claims she's been kidnapped 10 times...). But when there are no story references, it's better to take out games that aren't referred to, to avoid "making up" a full timeline that people might disagree with (while the point of the wiki is to state facts). [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 06:53, 7 October 2012 (EDT)
:I mean, making a timeline that most people would agree with is not good, because not everyone would agree with it, and it wouldn't be a stated fact either and more like speculation. But putting each game in its "own" timeline, with the events of games that are referred to in said game, might be better (doesn't mean there isn't a single unificated timeline, but rather each game possesses its own factual continuity by making references to other games) and the rest counts as fan speculation.
And because this wiki considers the cartoons and comic books to not be less canon than the games, this page might get complicated (for instance, Peach getting kidnapped 10 times before the events of [[Mario Superstar Baseball]]. That's supposed to be ''Super Mario Bros.'', ''The Lost Levels'', ''SMB3'', ''SMW'', ''SMRPG'', ''Paper Mario'', ''Mario Sunshine'', ''Superstar Saga'', ''TTYD'', and ''Mario Pinball Land''. But then what about the other medias, where Peach get kidnapped a few hundreds more time ? [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 07:04, 7 October 2012 (EDT)

== Re-writting the entire article ? ==

As I said, while this article can be useful to point out continuity links in various games, making a whole timeline from every game is nothing factual, but rather fan speculation. So I suggest we re-write the entire article, and make different sections for comics, mangas, cartoons, the movie, and the games. I suggest we don't try making a whole timeline, but rather put each game's continuity differently (as the Mario series has no "complete" continuity) (also games like Mario is Missing would be misfitting). We should begin with the main series games, then spin-offs, all by release order. [[User:Koopalmier|Koopalmier]] ([[User talk:Koopalmier|talk]]) 10:12, 7 October 2012 (EDT)

== New Super Mario Bros. Wii precedes Super Mario Galaxy? ==

At the credits in New Super Mario Bros. Wii you can hear Princess Peach, Bowser and Bowser Jr. talking when Designer Support appears:
"Dear Mario, I'll be waiting for you at the castle on the night of the Star..."
then after growls and laughter from Bowser and Peach, Peach says
"What? No!"
Bowser groans, Peach screams and Bowser Jr. rambles something.
This proves that New Super Mario Bros. Wii precedes Super Mario Galaxy, due to "Dear Mario, I'll be waiting for you at the castle on the night of the Star Festival. There's something I'd like to give you. From Peach." being the mail Peach sends to Mario at the beginning of the latter game.{{unsigned|LetsPlayNintendoITA}}

== Is this really necessary? ==
Why do you guys insist on turning Mario into Zelda? There is no timeline and no continuity, and Nintendo doesn't ever want there to be. They don't even prioritize story in these games at all. And the overuse of "some unknown amount of time after _____" makes this article look really, really redundant. [[User:BooDestroyer|BooDestroyer]] ([[User talk:BooDestroyer|talk]]) 16:36, 28 April 2013 (EDT)

:I don't even know why we even have an article like this. We're not sure if New Super Mario Bros. U even came after New Super Mario Bros. Wii since Nintendo never stated this. We don't have an established Mario time line. There may be games we know for sure came before Super Mario Bros., but most of where these games go is a gray area. I don't think we even need this page, to be honest.
:{{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 17:12, 28 April 2013 (EDT)

:: What part of "Nintendo has outright denied such a thing" don't you understand? [[User:BooDestroyer|BooDestroyer]] ([[User talk:BooDestroyer|talk]]) 18:29, 28 April 2013 (EDT)

It's really not. The page is an holdover from the weird period in 2007-2008 where the wiki didn't know if it wanted to be stylistically and content-wise, and the only reason it hasn't been nuked from orbit yet is that it's obscure and easily ignored (I think someone told me it was used to determine the order games are listed on articles, but if so, I can't find proofs for it). --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:24, 28 April 2013 (EDT)

==Get rid of the page==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|16-0|delete}}
As extensively discussed above, the page is a mess and I don't feel it's worth keeping. Here's why.

1: The page is simply badly written and not very useful, with tons of vague "[X] takes place '''some amount of time''' after [X]" and pointless sumarizing of the listed games' plot. Someone partially rewrote it in October 2012, and while it was an improvement over what was previously there, it's still hardly good.  

2: It's an holdover from 2007-2008, where the wiki didn't know if it wanted to fanwank wildly divergent games and medias into a single continuous timeline, or simply keep it at the binary "Is it officialy licensed? Y/N" distinction that's used now. As such, it seems to be pushing fan theories as "canon".

3:The page has been "under construction" since December 2008 with no signs of the template being removed anytime soon.

The page doesn't have any importance to the rules and policies of the wiki, not enough cringe value to be archived in BJAODN and something slightly more sensible like [[Continuity nods in the Mario series]] would likely need to start from scratch as a lot of the content here just sucks. As such, I propose its deletion.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 15, 2013, 23:59 GMT

=== Delete ===
#{{User|Glowsquid}} - What I wrote above.
#{{User|King Pikante}} Per Glowsquid.
#{{User|BowserJunior}} Per Proposal.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Banon}} This is mostly speculation.
#{{User|ThePremiumYoshi}} - Yeah, I agree that this page should be deleted.
#{{User|A Paragoomba and the Koopa Bros.}} - Per all.
#{{User|Prince Ludwig}} Hmm... I suppose canon sources can be wrote in ''Mario'' game articles except those which are unconfirmed. By the way, how come ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' wouldn't be the direct sequel?
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|ParaLemmy1234}} Per Glowsquid.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per Glowsquid. It would be better to have something like [http://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki%3AChronology&diff=491640&oldid=491485 the section this page originally stemmed from], rather than the mess we have now.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} Per all.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all, especially considering this isn't even canon.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all
#{{User|YoshiKong}} Per all.

=== Keep ===

=== Comments ===

== Delete talk page ==

Is this talk page still needed? {{User:Banon/sig}} 18:14, 21 May 2013 (EDT)
:It's better to leave it here in case someone remembers the page and wonder why it got deleted. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 20:38, 21 May 2013 (EDT)

== Mario is NOT the mario in Donkey Kong ==

Actually, the Mario in Donkey Kong is NOT the same Mario! It is said, time and time again, that the Donkey Kong from Donkey Kong is the grandfather of the new one. The new one was seen with Peach a lot, but when you had the old games, Pauline was seen. Pauline and Peach were never seen together, however, hinting they aren't from the same time period. Also, in Yoshi's Island, it was stated they were born in the Mushroom Kingdom, yet Donkey Kong's Mario was a carpenter! Also, Jumpman died before the new Donkey Kong even existed! (Old DK's junior was just a kid, and that's New DK's father.) This PROVES Jumpman is NOT Mario! Not to mention that during the time it would take for an ape's grandfather to reach the age of themselves, Mario would have to age quite a bit, but he didn't. In fact, Mario in our series actually seems YOUNGER than the Jumpman back when Donkey Kong was around. Jumpman was actually an ANCESTOR of Mario, and Pauline probably is too old to be with the new Mario. This explains why Pauline and Peach are NEVER seen together. Even when there was a mini-peach toy in Mario vs Donkey Kong 2, it looked more like Baby Peach then the current Peach. You know how princesses are elected in most places? By who they are born from. So they probably made their peach toy like the others, because they knew she was to one day, become a princes... Also, you know the brothers are the MARIO brothers, right? This means their surname was Mario, and Pauline probably referred to Jumpman by surname as well. This is the only way to clear up these inconsistencies. {{unsigned|98.24.64.21}}

== If I may... ==

I believe there are at least six different canons. They are as follows:

* '''M-Canon (Mario Canon)''': Core series console games, including ''Super Mario Bros.'', ''Super Mario World'', ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Sunshine'', ''New Super Mario Bros.'', and the first two ''Super Mario Land'' games;
* '''P-Canon (Paper Canon)''': Games in the ''Paper Mario'' series;
* '''T-Canon (Television Canon)''': The canon established in the television programs from the late NES and early SNES era, including all three animated programs from DiC, the ''Nintendo Comics System'', and the ''Nintendo Adventure Books series'';
* '''C-Canon (Continuity Canon)''': Games that have some sort of distinct connection to the M-Canon games, including the ''Mario Kart'' and ''Wario Land'' games;
* '''S-Canon (Secondary Canon)''': Materials which are available to be used or ignored as needed by official game makers; and
* '''N-Canon (Non-Canon)''': The ''Super Smash Bros.'' franchise, non-official games, and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon.

There may be more canons, but these are the only six I can think of right now. --[[Special:Contributions/96.38.105.38|96.38.105.38]] 22:40, 6 June 2018 (EDT)