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Talk:Yoshi's Island (location): Difference between revisions
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While us being an English wiki does not in and of itself dictate how we split and merge things, it ''does'' affect how we cover them. Our [[Garden Grab]] article is first and foremost an article about a minigame where the players pull carrots out of the ground. We bring up that the Japanese version has daikon radishes instead and include screenshots of it, but the focus is still on the carrots. If this were a Japanese wiki, it would ''absolutely'' be the other way around, with the focus on the radishes and a mention of them being carrots overseas. With the wiki being in English, it makes sense to cater primarily to native English-speaking countries, since anyone outside of those countries who isn't fluent in English will be relying on Google Translate. Therefore, when English and Japanese versions differ in a way that neither is definitively "wrong", it's simply pragmatic to focus on the English side of things. "This is an English wiki" not being a convincing argument by itself doesn't make the polar opposite sentiment of "us being an English wiki has zero relevance" any more accurate. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:01, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | While us being an English wiki does not in and of itself dictate how we split and merge things, it ''does'' affect how we cover them. Our [[Garden Grab]] article is first and foremost an article about a minigame where the players pull carrots out of the ground. We bring up that the Japanese version has daikon radishes instead and include screenshots of it, but the focus is still on the carrots. If this were a Japanese wiki, it would ''absolutely'' be the other way around, with the focus on the radishes and a mention of them being carrots overseas. With the wiki being in English, it makes sense to cater primarily to native English-speaking countries, since anyone outside of those countries who isn't fluent in English will be relying on Google Translate. Therefore, when English and Japanese versions differ in a way that neither is definitively "wrong", it's simply pragmatic to focus on the English side of things. "This is an English wiki" not being a convincing argument by itself doesn't make the polar opposite sentiment of "us being an English wiki has zero relevance" any more accurate. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:01, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
:RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.<br>RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.<br>RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what English-speaking markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.<br>”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.<br>RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | :RE Garden Grab: you have glossed over the fact that this wasn’t the work of localisation. The game was developed in Japan, and Hudson/Nintendo decided or were told to replace a Japanese vegetable with something more internationally recogniseable for the overseas market; therefore, I would say the swapping of models is still the work of the creators. Besides, the wiki being English means it can and should outwardly echo English material--if Yo’ster were to be split from Yoshi’s Island, it would still be called “Yoshi’s Island” with an identifier because that’s its most recent and commonly used English name. To paraphrase what I told MrConcreteDonkey, do not conflate issues of naming and outward presentation with the intent behind these concepts.<br>RE Smash rebuttal: Quite honestly I did not see anyone seriously interpreting those trophy descriptions as decisive, but moreso being received for consideration and comparison. In that respect, I think it’s evident that they do carry much more weight than a random online interview. If you want to reduce the supporters’ rationale to a curt comment, keep in mind that it has to make sense first.<br>RE general issue of distinction: As I said above, it’s likely whoever localised PiT and Smash 3DS/WiiU in English went for the original English name of the SMW island because that’s what English-speaking markets tie what the Japanese call “Yo’ster island” to. The English Smash trophy writer either didn’t have enough space or didn’t have the fiat to add “see, Yoshi actually lives on two different islands called Yoshi’s Island” and just merged the two concepts for the sake of brevity.<br>”For all the talk that we should cover things from a global perspective, the arguments surrounding it sure do come off as Japan-centric.” You’re making stuff up. There is no sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers like you’re making it out to be. In the Construction Site Fight proposal, my arguments even reflected an altogether different sentiment, that the English naming scheme of that level should be prioritised—which is because the creators of the game that subject pertains to were British, with the manual writer likely American. I’m only for consistently applying the principle of “authorial intent”.<br>RE Yoshi’s Island golf course: And the aforementioned point finally brings me here. In the absence of any obvious physical clues that would tie the course to one island or another, IMO it’s best to turn to the Japanese name (as the game’s creators were Japanese), which staunchly ties is to the, uh, “Yoshi’s Island” Yoshi’s Island. Also, I admit I find strange how you're fixated on this one-shot level in a spin-off game that wasn't even developed in-house and you think the way you identify it completely topples the plethora of arguments made in support of the proposal. Case closed. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 06:36, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | ||
'''@ Koopa Con Carne''': I expressed my opinion and didn't imply the way you'd expressed yours was in bad faith, so I don't appreciate your claim I'm being "disingenuous". This is about splitting an article on a fan wiki for a video game series, what ulterior motives do you think anyone has here? | |||
Firstly, you've "conveniently" ignored the discussion I had with [[User:Yo'ster|Yo'ster]] just before you'd made your comment, where he pointed out to me that the proposal is not trying to change the name to "Yo'ster Island". It's an easy mistake to make seeing as [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Yoshi%27s_Island_(location)&diff=3896965&oldid=3896953 the proposer seems more occupied with editing in petty comments than clarifying what he's trying to do]. | |||
This still doesn't provide any reason as to why the two Islands have been split into these two arbitrary lists - the only real reason for this appears to be aesthetic similarities, but the idea that the islands from these specific games are the same doesn't appear to be explicitly confirmed anywhere. The Japanese trophy description does list the two separate islands but unless part of it has been omitted the way they've been split is based entirely on speculation - which is "completely unimportant" to the Wiki according to [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]]. | |||
To go into the idea further, the trophy claims Yoshi assists Mario with his adventures on these islands, but Mario doesn't even appear in ''Yoshi's Story'' or ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' - plus, the latter is "supposed to take place in a kindergarten class within the Mario universe" according to the developers, so surely the argument should be to split this into three different articles? | |||
Your point about the Wiki only being English because it's a lingua franca isn't correct and you only need to visit the Main Page to find out why - we are listed as the English Wiki on the [[MarioWiki:Mushroom World Encyclopedia|Mushroom World Encyclopedia]], alongside the German Mario Wiki and Italian Mario Wiki, and that we "[cover] the Mario franchise from different areas of the world". This is also reflected on both of their websites. If this site was intended to cover the series from a worldwide perspective to such an extent, we should be offering entire articles written in other languages rather than simply names to cross-reference at the bottom of articles - like Wikipedia, which I'm assuming you're thinking of with your "online encyclopedia" comment. We can't do this because a) presumably the server costs would be massive if we expanded the Wiki by that much, and b) we don't have a large enough community (international or not) to maintain this. | |||
But also I agree with [[User:7feetunder|7feetunder]]'s point above that all of this talk of catering to "worldwide" audiences comes off as Japan-centric, because that's the only other language that's even been brought up in regard to this. He hasn't implied anyone's pushing "sinister narrative to discriminate non-Japanese readers" and claiming he has is a bit overdramatic. It's a Japanese-created series so some focus on that is understandable, but the idea that we have to lean towards the Japanese interpretation of things over the English interpretation doesn't appear to have any footing in our [[MarioWiki:Coverage|our coverage policy]] - and, if anything, claiming the original Japanese version is more correct/official seems to directly go against it. Again I don't edit the Wiki often and even when I did I had little experience with policy, but I think the burden of finding a policy that supports changing the way things are lies with the support side and not the opposition. | |||
Either way, as a result, every proposal like this (cf. [[Prince Froggy]]) is going to end in a stalemate which is unsatisfying for both sides, because it's all essentially based on personal preference (not necessarily about canon, but more the importance of canon over simplicity) and overspeculation. As there's no clear policy reason for doing this, there's little here which is explicitly right or wrong, so this all just comes across as argument for the sake of argument. {{User:MrConcreteDonkey/sig}} 11:52, April 22, 2023 (EDT) | |||