@@ Line 380: / Line 380: @@
 == Potential to merge to Yoshi ==
-{{talk}}
 I know I'm liable to catch a lot of flak for this, but following the successful merges of Birdo and Boom Boom, I think it's time to examine whether this has any business being its own article. A grand majority of the time, "Yoshi" treated as someone's name is assigned arbitrarily to any nonspecific member regardless of things like color; this can be seen ''at least'' as far back as the ''Yoshi's Story'' manual and occurs even more often today (ie with Kangaroo Yoshi); another good example is with ''Super Mario Sunshine'' ("Yoshi's back, so saddle up!"), where he changes color and dissolves in water. Furthermore, it has been ''explicitly'' stated that "Yoshi" is not a singular individual, with it instead referring to any given one unless stated otherwise. That's not even getting into the fact that in the ''Yoshi'' franchise itself, the green-colored one rarely has any more prominence than any of the other colors, leaving plenty of redundancy between the pages. Also let's not forget how ''Mario Kart 8'' handles his color alts the same way as Shy Guys. It's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo has no interest in distinguishing these subjects (and in fact, seems to encourage them to be synonymous), so we really should reflect that. The only real example of a game I can think of having a specific "main" Yoshi alongside "minor" Yoshis is ''Super Mario RPG'', where all have such a minor role anyways a single page would also still probably be simpler. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:09, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 :Funny, I was actually just thinking about this myself. Same can really be said about Toad, since both are just kinda an umbrella term for the overall species. Basically "All Yoshis/Toads are named Yoshi/Toad". But I'm still kinda on the fence about it, since I don't really agree with the merging of Birdo/Birdo's species. So I'm not entirely sure. {{User:Tails777/sig}}23:45, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
@@ Line 413: / Line 412: @@
 == Merging this with [[Yoshi]] ==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|vetoed|Irrespective of the validity of the suggestion, plagiarizing other contributor's writing is ''not'' acceptable.}}When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Birdo, Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.
-When Nintendo includes Yoshi in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colors, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially, I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Yoshi is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario World information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Yoshis are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Yoshi is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article. Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with , Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.
 '''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
 '''Deadline''': October 14, 23:59 GMT
@@ Line 420: / Line 420: @@
 ===Support===
 #{{User|Teh Other}} Per proposal
+#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - (Bit too early for this, son) Per everything I said above, it's abundantly clear Nintendo doesn't see ''any'' distinction and never really has. It is our role to reflect that, not fanwank together a pick-and-choose "biography" of incompatible appearances. And to quote myself below: in '''many''' sources, such as the [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_N64/Manual/formated/Yoshi-s_Story_-_1998_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Yoshi's Story'' manual] and [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Super_Mario_Sunshine_-_2002_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Super Mario Sunshine'' manual], ''every'' Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "''a'' Yoshi" or "''the'' Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both ''Story'' and ''Sunshine'' are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if ''every'' Yoshi is "Yoshi," '''''who is the character and how is he distinct?''''' From the physically, functionally, and nomenclaturally identical others?
 ===Oppose===
+#{{User|Tails777}} Strong oppose, per my reasons above and below.
+#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Tails777.
+#{{User|Swallow}} There is a lot to say about the character throughout games that wouldn't be fitting on the species page, and it is often clear when it's supposed to be the character Yoshi.
+#{{User|Dwhitney}} Per all.
+#{{User|Arend}} Per all; there are still ''many'' appearances that distinct Yoshi as its own character (he even has [[Yoshi's House|his own house]], and I think the appearances of his house indicates that the games it's featured in also feature THE Yoshi as well). If we go through with this, we might as well do the same with ALL species-based characters like Toad or Kamek.
+#{{User|Hewer}} Like I made clear in my [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|original proposal]] (which I'm not sure whether to be flattered or annoyed that you copy-pasted word for word), I don't think Birdo and Yoshi are completely identical situations as while Birdo has never really been distinguished from others of her kind, Yoshi has, and statements like "The rest of the history section is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi" don't really make sense.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
+#{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} Per all.
+#{{User|RealStuffMister}} While its never mentioned that the Yoshi in games like Mario Party, Mario Kart, etc. is the same specific yoshi or not, they're always treated as if they're same one throughout. For example, in Mario Party Superstars it lists Yoshi, as one character and not as a species, appearing in all previous mario party games, implying its the same character. In spin-offs like the mario cartoons, Yoshi is treated as a single, individual character. The pages are also different in what they talk about, the Yoshi (species) page discusses the species in general, the games they appear in and whatnot, while the Yoshi page is about Yoshi as a playable character, or, more importantly, a separate, distinguished character. Also, there are the points raised by Arend too, like him having his own house and stuff. to make a whole long story short: per all.
+#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per all.
+#{{User|Spectrogram}} per all.
+#{{User|BubbleRevolution}} Per all. While Nintendo doesn't bother to keep a distinction between Yoshi and the rest of his species most of the time, by the same logic we'd have to merge Toad with his species as well.
+#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per all. I should've opposed the other ones when I had the chance.
+#{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per all. Those other character/species pages shouldn't be/have been merged either.
 ===Comments===
+Well this was originally going to be my vote, but I think I wrote an essay instead. But there are still way more examples of when Yoshi was treated as an individual from his species. For starters, his ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' specifically states "There's Yoshi and there's all the other Yoshis", a clear indication that there is indeed the individual character. Second, Yoshi himself more often than not appears as the ''sole Green Yoshi'' in several games; if you notice in many spin-off games, Yoshi appears playable, then the crowd usually features other Yoshis, ''none of which are green''. In fact, ''Mario Strikers: Battle League'' is the only game to date that I can recall that has Green Yoshis in the crowd as well as the playable Yoshi himself. While it's true that a few games do interchange him with his species (''Mario Power Tennis'', ''Mario Strikers: Battle League'' and the Kangaroo and Gold Egg variants in ''Mario Kart Tour''), there are still many examples of where Yoshi is treated as an individual. Third, ''less information than the Birdo article''? I really don't think that's a fair comparison, considering Birdo in ''Mario Kart Tour'' follows the same naming style as other characterized variants (Birdo (Yellow) as opposed to Yellow Birdo) signifying less of a species and more of the actual character as a different color, whereas Yoshi and Toad both acknowledge color palettes as different from their originals (Red Yoshi as opposed to Yoshi (Red)). Yoshi has had ''way'' more consistent appearances as a standalone character when compared to that of generic enemies such as Koopa Troopa or Shy Guy, who to this day are still not confirmed to be individual characters participating in several ''Mario Kart'' titles, where Yoshi was clearly stated in his ''Mario Party 10'' bio to have attended every party to date. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
+:Where does that line show up in ''Yoshi's Crafted World''? If anything, you would think the Yoshi platformers have indicated the opposite, considering Kamek/Bowser will refer to any Yoshi color as "Yoshi" (even "Mario's little pet" to any newborn in ''Yoshi's Story''). Also, I'm not sure how ''Mario Kart Tour'' is supposed to prove anything one way or another, considering Shy Guy has the same name format. I think Yoshi and Shy Guy were going for how they were previously established, like you'd see in ''Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition'' or ''Paper Mario: Color Splash''. I do disagree with the "lone generic x must be THE x!" approach which Yoshi has quite a number of (see ''Color Splash'' again), and think at best the character article can follow times that Yoshi has had familiarity with Mario like in ''Super Mario RPG'' or ''Super Mario 64'', not when it's clearly a different Yoshi like ''Super Mario Sunshine'' or several ''Yoshi'' games like ''New Island''. And @Arend: [[Yoshi's Egg]] has the same format (and so does [[Toad House|Toad's House]], sometimes); are the eggs only laid by one Yoshi? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:44, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
+::No, but what I am saying is that in every appearance, Yoshi's House is owned by one particular Yoshi, which is implied to be the same one every time. Not to mention that in all mainline appearances (World, Odyssey, Galaxy 2), the house is vacant and Yoshi has always left a message behind that ''he'' is currently away. I can understand you would think these houses are owned by different Yoshis, considering their differing locations and appearances, but the implication that it's all the same Yoshi is still there.<br>Besides, Yoshi's Eggs are sometimes referred to as simply Yoshi Eggs, and Toad's Houses are more commonly referred to as Toad Houses, but Yoshi's House has ''never'' ben referred to as "a Yoshi House", so I don't think it's supposed to be the same kind of deal as those two. {{User:Arend/sig}} 08:15, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
+:::Yoshi's House hasn't had enough named appearances to have as many translation quibbles, but if it did, it probably would. Multiple houses clearly styled after the original ''Super Mario World'' one have appeared in the ''Yoshi's Island'' games, where each Yoshi waits for Baby Mario to pass the Goal Ring, and ''Super Mario RPG'' and ''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'', where they're common structures on Yo'ster Isle / Yoshi's Island. Also, I'm not sure how being a householder necessarily implies it to be the same Yoshi, considering he signs his name differently in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' (I don't remember how he signs it in ''Super Mario Odyssey''). Actually, come to think of it, doesn't having any non-green Yoshi change the Message Block in ''Super Mario World''? (All Yoshis are referred to as "he" anyway, so I'm not sure what the italics mean.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:38, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
+::@LinkTheLefty: [https://yoshiscraftedworld.nintendo.com/characters/ Right on the official site], Yoshi's bio (which we do have on his [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Yoshi's Crafted World|statistics article too]]) specifically says "There’s Yoshi, and then there are all the other Yoshis: red, pink, blue, yellow, and more.", which to me is still a viable source to prove Nintendo does still see Yoshi as an individual. And this is a 2020 game, so it's clear Nintendo does show some acknowledgement on Yoshi's status as a character in modern times. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
+:::Just so you know, [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/switch/aea2a/pc/index.html that part is completely absent from the Japanese site], this is not even an isolated case, it's actually very interesting to see the parallels between Yoshi's bio [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/?lang=en in the English translation] of the Mario Portal and [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/characters/?lang=ja the original Japanese bio], like in this case:
+:::'''Japanese bio''': 緑のヨッシーのほかにも、赤・水色・ピンクなど色違いのヨッシーもいます。
+:::''In addition to Green Yoshi, there are also Yoshi of different colors such as red, light blue and pink'' (Note how I didn't pluralize ''Yoshi'' because the term is always the same in Japanese whenever is singular or plural, so ''Green Yoshi'' could actually be ''Green Yoshis'')
+:::'''English bio''': He is green, but others of his kind may be other colors such as red, blue, pink, and yellow.
+:::These two approaches toward what is supposed to be the same sentence reflect very well how the Western approach differs from the Japanese one, and also means that we'll find indeed even recent Western material that talks about Yoshi as a character - that English translation was added this year -, but this won't really reflect how Yoshi is approached by Nintendo in Japan.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 00:25, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::The English bios on Portal are actually straight from [https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ the updated NOA Mario site bios], dating at least [https://web.archive.org/web/20210924030736/https://mario.nintendo.com/characters/ about a year back]. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 07:40, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::Sometimes I do wonder how much site writers coordinate with game localizers. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
+:::An additional note I want to make, in '''many''' sources, such as the [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_N64/Manual/formated/Yoshi-s_Story_-_1998_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Yoshi's Story'' manual] and [https://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube/Manual/formated/Super_Mario_Sunshine_-_2002_-_Nintendo.pdf ''Super Mario Sunshine'' manual], ''every'' Yoshi is simply called "Yoshi." Not "''a'' Yoshi" or "''the'' Yoshi," just "Yoshi," or "Yoshis" in plural. And furthermore, both ''Story'' and ''Sunshine'' are clearly different from the so-called "main" Yoshi in their respective predecessors, with the former just hatching and the latter having the water weakness stated to be a Delfino-only thing. So, if ''every'' Yoshi is "Yoshi," '''''who is the character and how is he distinct?''''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:18, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::@Doc:A lack of distinction doesn't necessarily mean being an individual character is impossible, not when we have [[Ruddy Road Paint Guy|multiple]] [[Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)|minor]] [[Koopa (Mario Party DS)|NPCs]] who all look identical to their parent species, who get articles thanks to our [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|Minor NPC policy]]. None of them have any distinction from their parent species. Ruddy Road Paint Guy doesn't fight any different than a normal Paint Guy, he doesn't look any different than a normal Paint Guy. The Goomba and Koopa don't have enough screen time to show they have any sort of distinct personality or visual traits that make them distinct from any other Goomba or Koopa, nor do they do anything super notable in their respective stories. Yoshi may not have any sort of difference from the rest of his species, but that doesn't mean he can't be an individual character. His ''Mario Party 10'' bio says ''"The green gobbler has attended every Mario Party to date, and Flutter Jumps back into the fun this time around."'', which clearly means that the Yoshi that has appeared in every ''Mario Party'' title before is the same Yoshi, something most other species members can't say for themselves, such as the Koopa Troopa in the ''Mario Kart series''. Confirming that "this" Yoshi has been in every ''Mario Party'' shows consistency towards his individuality. Same can be said for the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, as we know Sakurai has confirmed that Yoshi has appeared in all five games, pretty much saying the same thing; it's the same character. And while Snake's codec conversation doesn't share the same similarity, Pit's Palutena's Guidance has him saying "It's Yoshi!" rather than "It's '''a''' Yoshi!". Even if Smash is a multi series crossover and not always correct, it's information should still be relevant. Beyond that, multiple bios specifically use male pronouns to refer to him. If he wasn't an individual character, there likely wouldn't be such pronoun uses, instead opting to talk about the species as a whole and use words like "they". And even more so, multiple bios single out this Yoshi as a "friend to the Mario Bros.", which is again, something you likely wouldn't see if they were just referring to the species as a whole. It's clearly singling out a specific Yoshi that adventures with them often. Even if it's not always consistent, we shouldn't be ignoring these examples. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
+:::::That ignores my point of "Yoshi" as a name being used as a general term. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 08:31, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::Well [[Bob-omb (Paper Mario: The Origami King)|Bob-omb from ''Origami King'']] insists that his name is Bob-omb, which is just the general term for the species. [[Goomba (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars character)|Goomba from SMRPG]] is just Goomba, the general term for the species. And even if they are intending on being merged, nearly every [[Mario Party Advance#NPCs|''Mario Party Advance'' character]] simply introduces themselves as their species name and Wiggler from both ''[[Paper Mario Sticker Star]]'' and, as far as I'm concerned, ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'' is just referred to as "Wiggler", despite also being referred to in ways that suggest a character. Yoshi is far from the only character to have his species name be used as a general term as well as a name and several of my examples still have articles despite that similarity. I don't think being a general term means it can't be used as an individual's name. {{User:Tails777/sig}}09:27, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::Bob-omb is a distinct one-time character who has a role different from the others (unlike Yoshi), Goomba is a localization blunder (note the distinct Japanese name), MPA doesn't matter since they are to-be merged, and Wiggler's never been split off at all. None of those correlate at all to this. Yoshi has always been interchangeable in singular and plural. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:48, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::From a functional standpoint, you are correct; Yoshi does not have many distinct features from his species (if we want to exclude the fact that he can breathe fire with a Power Flower, but that's a power-up). But if you wanna look at it from a functional standpoint, Bob-omb's entire role just led up to him exploding, just told in a fancier way. It was cool that he had amnesia and that he had no fuse and there was a backstory to that, but at the end of the day, from a functional standpoint, his entire story just led up to him exploding, which is just a short story long for the life of any typical Bob-omb we see in plenty of standard Mario games. And in battle, he body slammed, something Bob-ombs also do (primarily in the ''Paper Mario'' games). I'm more than willing to accept that we just don't agree on this and that is fine. From a functional standpoint, Yoshi isn't different from his species, but that's really not all there is to it. I still see multiple times Nintendo has made an effort to distinguish Yoshi as an individual; his confirmed status as a perfect attendee to ''Mario Party'' and ''Super Smash Bros.'' and consistently being singled out as a friend to the Mario Bros. being the main examples of this. {{User:Tails777/sig}}17:53, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::::One game I think we should take a look at here is Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle. When Yoshi first appears, Beep-0 calls him "the famous Yoshi", then asks him "So Yoshi, is it true you have your own island?" {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:34, October 3, 2022 (EDT)
+I'm not ready to vote on this just yet, but I ''do'' think this should be a multi-option proposal instead of an all-or-nothing deal. The one thing I'm sure of right now is that the Yoshi article ''does'' have a problem with assuming that any singular green Yoshi is ''the'' Yoshi, even if it is not identified as such (e.g. ''NSMBWii'' and ''Color Splash''). I'd suggest either moving those sections to a possible appearances section a la [[Toad]]'s article or removing them entirely. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:06, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+:You know, I would be down with the Yoshi article having a "Possible appearances" section on his page. Feels like a good compromise. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:03, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+By the way, do we have any policy against plagiarized proposals? Hewer stated that this one is copied nearly word for word from [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|his proposal regarding Birdo]], and plagiarism on articles (or basically anywhere really) is regarded as unacceptable, so uh... {{User:Arend/sig}} 12:54, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+@BubbleRevolution What is the issue with that, when it is in the same boat? That's what I want to happen. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:46, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:Because there's clearly examples of "Toad" as a singular character. Yes, there are instances of the franchise not really bothering to make a distinction between Toad as a character and Toad as a species at times, but the keyword here is "at times". There's plenty of instances of Toad as a character being treated as such (including the official Japanese website for the series referring to him this way), and Yoshi is very much the same way. There are Yoshis, and then there is THE Yoshi, who is treated as a singular character in the games he appears in, merging the pages would just make things unnecessarily confusing and also wouldn't reflect the actual way the "Yoshi" character is treated in appearances where they DO point out the one specific Yoshi. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 16:47, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:In games with both singular and plural, they're really cutting back on distinguishing even ''that'', like MK8's DLC Yoshi colors. NSMBUDX having blue and yellow Toad share a generic "Toad" slot, and the new ''Strikers'' treating them like the other characters except by allowing multiple of them at once, thus using both concepts concurrently in functionally identical ways, which for us means violating the "once and only once" rule. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:55, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+::DLC colors aren't really an indicator of much since that's not a story-based or in-universe sort of thing, it's literally just an alternate palette. Ultimately, the big issue is there are a large number of times that Yoshi and Toad ARE treated as singular characters, just ones part of a massively identical species. Erasing that from the wiki just complicates things and doesn't reflect the actual history of the series or the character. Comparing this to the Birdo proposal, the major difference between those two are that there aren't specific characters who are part of the "Birdo" species and aren't just generic Birdos, while there are several specific characters of the "Yoshi" race (Boshi, Mini-Yoshi), as well as numerous specific Toad characters, including Toadette, whose relationship with Toad ''the character'' has actually been specified multiple times.
+::To sum it up, yes, there are times when Nintendo doesn't bother to keep the distinction between character and species separate, but there are also numerous times when they ''do'', and this should be reflected on the wiki. Furthermore, in branding, Yoshi and Toad are treated as characters first and foremost, and as a species second. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:08, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:::Hard agree with BubbleRevolution here, I was fine with the Boom Boom and Birdo merges because there wasn't much going for their respective species, but I think doing those merges for Yoshi, Toad and Kamek are just going too far are will lead to pretty messy and cramped organisation when there is a lot to say about both character and species. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:16, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+::::Yeah, merging Kamek would be a baffling choice since that one specific Magikoopa actually has a specific position in the world of the games and appears fairly consistently. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:23, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:::I'm curious what you mean by "actual history of the series or the character," since both "character" and "species" iterations influence on each other is characterized at intervening points; MagiKamek is probably the most blatant example. To that end, I say keeping them split is a ''dis''service for leaving out important details of the design and characterization's influence. (Also, a lot of ''other'' games make a big point about there ''not'' being a "singular" Toad, like in ''Color Splash'' where it's the basis of a joke that otherwise makes no sense). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:27, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+::::But Yoshi, Toad, and Kamek all have been treated as recurring, singular individuals who also appear alongside others of their species. Yes, sometimes there's inconsistency, but in most appearances of the specific characters, they are explicitly treated as "_, the character" rather than "_, the species". Getting rid of the character page and merging it into the species pages doesn't reflect the official depictions of "Yoshi" as a singular entity. This is especially egregious for Kamek, who is a specifically established character who despite the Japanese name being the same, is ''always'' portrayed as one specific Magikoopa who acts as Bowser's advisor and raised him. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 18:35, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::[[Kamek#Mario Party 2|Except on a good chunk of appearances where he's some random guy]]. Might as well treat the singular Magikoopas predating SMW2 from ''Adventures'', ''Kun'', and ''Safari'' as him (and I question why we don't). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:54, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::Except those are specifically referred to as "Kamek" in the English games, so that counts as a source, there's also no real indication he's NOT supposed to be that same character, and just some random Magikoopa. The fact is, in Japanese, there's an "individual Kamek" and a "Kamek species", much like Yoshi or Toad, I did some digging and plenty of Japanese articles on the enemy point out a difference between "zako (generic enemy) Kamek" and "aide Kamek". We don't treat Magikoopas predating SMW2 as him as the "aide Kamek" character had not been established yet.
+::::::Regardless, this has gotten off-topic and the point I'm making is that there is a distinct "Yoshi" character, as established multiple times. Japanese sites I looked at also make a distinction between "Yoshi the character" and "Yoshi the race" so it's clear this isn't some localization-induced thing, there's a need for both pages. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 19:11, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::Just to clarify, we don't base ourselves on anything but official sources even in the context of Japanese material. ''Zako Kamek'' and ''aide Kamek'' aren't official names, ditto for ''Yoshi the character'' and ''Yoshi the race''. It's actually worth reminding how official text went as far as reminding us that ''Yoshi'' is not a personal name like ''Mario''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:09, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::I figured I would add this here since it's pretty relevant to the proposal - I've indicated before that ''Super Mario RPG'' is, in my opinion, one of the strongest indicators for a Japanese depiction of Yoshi as a character (to say nothing of Toad, which is used in the context of an individual despite [[Toadofsky|some]] [[Hinopio|characters]] using some variant of it [Nintendo hardly if ever uses the same name for a character and species simultaneously in the same game, and I'd be curious if the movie will be the one to break that trend]). However, I came across something that made me do a double-take on that idea. Near the bottom of [https://www.patreon.com/posts/search-for-big-21801616 this Supper Mario Broth post] tracing high-quality artwork of <s>Beeg Yoshi</s> Baby Fat, you can see an official trading card labeling his Japanese name as plain Yoshi, instead of the expected Chibi-Yossy for a Baby Yoshi. This also calls into question the identity of "Yoshi" in the [[Wheeere's Yoshi?!|Yoshi Shell game]], which is a Baby Yoshi as well. Basically, the one talking green Yoshi in that appearance may just be a Yoshi that happens to talk, as "Yoshi" applies to other green members of his species. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:22, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
+I would like to reiterate that, like Hewer stated before, that this proposal is copied nearly word for word from his [[Talk:Birdo (species)#Merging this with Birdo|Merging this with Birdo]] proposal, just with every instance of "Birdo" swapped with "Yoshi" and vice versa (as well as their respective debut games being swapped), and the first sentence perring Doc removed. This is '''very''' noticeable when comparing the two proposals (seriously, ''both'' bring up that they keep thinking about the Miyamoto quote, both bring up that what on their respective pages may be mere fan speculation, even the darn ''proposal title'' has the exact same structure), and also highlight some anomalies:
+*''"The rest of the history section '''(besides the show)''' is saying that Yoshis are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Yoshis of different colors treated like normal Yoshi, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Yoshi article."'' There only ''was'' one Yoshi in the Super Mario World TV series, and that's Yoshi the character, but this sentence is still talking about Yoshi the species (their article actually ''never mentions'' the TV series at all). This was definitely blindly copied from the Birdo proposal, since multiple characters from the Birdo species appeared in the Super Mario Bros Super Show instead of a single Birdo.
+*''"Overall, I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with '''Birdo''', Toad, and Kamek/Magikoopa [...]"'' As I stated, this proposal swaps every instance of "Birdo" with "Yoshi" and vice versa, but this kind of creates an inconsistency with which species/character actually has less information than the other. According to Hewer's proposal, Birdo has less information for character and species each than Yoshi, but this proposal states that Yoshi has less information for those than Birdo. ''Which statement is actually correct here???'' If Yoshi actually has less info, doesn't that mean that Birdo should be ''re-split'', since it's being compared here with other individual characters like Toad and Kamek? Or does Yoshi have more information than Birdo after all, meaning that this is another blindly copied sentence that the proposer never thought twice about, and thus needs to be removed since it's an incorrect argument? Which is it??
+Now that this problem is being largely ignored by anyone else is one thing I find concerning (I mean, it ''is'' plagiarism), but what I find even ''more'' concerning is that ''the proposer'', {{User|Teh Other}}, seemingly ignores this problem. In fact, Teh Other seemingly ''never'' left any comment here regarding the issues of the opposition, which are mostly countered by LinkTheLefty and Doc von Schmeltwick instead (the latter being the only other supporter of the proposal). Now the reason why I find the lack of Teh Other's presence concerning is because this proposal is ''his'' opinion, ''his'' reasoning why the Yoshi articles should be merged. And he just... blindly copied Hewer's proposal and swapped a couple of words. Are these his ''actual'' opinions, does he ''really'' think Birdo as a character and as a species have more separate information than Yoshi? Or was he too lazy to write up any arguments himself, and just lazily copied a similar proposal by someone else without ''actually reading'' what it said? I would really like Teh Other to reevaluate his proposal and address the problems from the copied proposal, as well as his actual arguments, ''in his own words''.<br>And again, I want to know if plagiarized proposals like this is actually allowed. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:41, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
+:I apologize for not being diligent enough in cancelling this when it was first brought up. This isn't acceptable. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 11:59, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
+==Reverse the colored Yoshi merge==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|5-10|Keep colored Yoshi pages merged}}
+This is probably going to be a controversial one but here we go! Up until a few years ago, each Yoshi color had its own individual article separate from this page. They were all merged into this article back in 2019 through a TPP you can see earlier on this talk page, and admittedly I supported it at the time, but I've come to believe that this was misguided, makes information on any individual Yoshi color more difficult to find, and was mostly the result of the longtime viewpoint that we don't split color variants, one that I've questioned the usefulness of more as time goes on. Let's say, for example, a reader wants to read only about what games a Red Yoshi appeared in, and/or what unique attributes Red Yoshis have, a perfectly valid possibility. Well, if they want to do that now, good luck. They'll have to comb through a currently 89k byte article and sift out any of the information about every other color of Yoshi.
+To show that there is  merit to this idea, I've listed every game where Yoshis have tangible gameplay differences (or other notable information, at least) that I can find:
+*''Super Mario World'' - Each Yoshi has a different default ability when it holds a shell in its mouth. The game treats them as separate and you can only find non-green Yoshis in certain levels. The page currently makes no note of which levels they are actually found in, something that would be useful to note.
+*''Super Mario Sunshine'' - Each color has a unique ability, and different fruits in the game determine the color. Because of this different missions require different Yoshis. Yes, it's technically a Green Yoshi that changes colors, but a colored Yoshi is a colored Yoshi, no need to split hairs.
+*''Super Mario Run'' - Each Yoshi has different unlocking requirements, Blue Yoshi notably is the only Yoshi you can get in the free version of the game.
+*''Super Mario Maker 2'' - Red Yoshi has a special fireball spitting ability rather than the tongue.
+*''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' - Depending on the level you play, the Yoshi is different. The article currently doesn't note where they appear. Worth noting that a German Club Nintendo guide gave each colored Yoshi a name in this game, not saying we should name the articles after them or that it's a huge point for splitting, but it's more information unique to each color.
+*''Yoshi's Story'' - Each Yoshi has different fruit preferences, additionally Black and White Yoshis have a better Flutter Jump while Super Happy compared to the other colors. Different pitched voices too!
+*''Yoshi's Island DS''/''Yoshi's New Island'' - Like SMW2, color is dependent on level, and it's not noted here.
+*''Yoshi's Woolly World'' - The available colors are actually dependent on which save file you have, with only Red Yoshi being available by default in all of them. Once again, none of the specifics are noted here.
+*''Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time'' - The colored Yoshis have to be rescued in Yoob's Belly to escape and are found in different places. Again, the page barely mentions any of this.
+*''Mario Golf: Super Rush'' - Unlock methods are different.
+*''Mario Tennis Open'' - Different stats/character classes.
+*''Mario Super Sluggers'' - Different stats. I believe they also have different roles in the story mode? Don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I've played the game and our coverage of the story mode isn't that great.
+*''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'' - Some of the alternate colors are used as staff ghosts.
+*''Mario Kart Tour'' - Pretty much every difference that exists in the game. Introduced at different times with varying availability, different favored courses, and different special items.
+I'm aware that several of these on their own may not necessarily warrant a split, however I'm of the opinion that, at some point, the whole becomes worth more than the sum of its parts. Therefore I don't find it useful to argue that any of these individual cases aren't worth splitting.
+If this passes, the following articles will be reinstated for consistency:
+*Black Yoshi
+*Blue Yoshi
+*Brown Yoshi
+*Green Yoshi
+*Light Blue Yoshi
+*Orange Yoshi
+*Pink Yoshi
+*Purple Yoshi
+*Red Yoshi
+*White Yoshi
+*Yellow Yoshi
+The Yoshi (species) page will remain intact and will continue to cover general information on Yoshis as needed.
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
+'''Deadline''': <s>November 12, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to November 19, 2022, 23:59 GMT
+====Support====
+#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Save the dinos!
+#{{User|Spectrogram}} Strong support per proposal.
+#{{User|KingGeoshiKoopshi64}} Per all. Some colored Yoshis have their own function and every indivitual color has it's purpose and history too. If there is a gallery for colored Yoshis then consistently so should their own articles and it makes it easier to read for what one they want to read about.
+#{{User|Tails777}} Strong support. I've been pushing for this for some time; Yoshis have had more examples of individual statistics than most other color based species. And again, to draw the comparison I've drawn multiple times, we have articles for karts and gliders that are [[Blue Biddybuggy|palette]] [[Warship|swaps]] [[Green Cheep Charger|at]] [[Bull's-Eye Banzai|best]] and they still get articles for the same differences these Yoshis have; different names (albeit color based for the Yoshis), different favorite and favored courses, except the Yoshis have the added benefit of different items (barring Red Yoshi). I know Shy Guys and Toads have the same distinction in ''Mario Kart Tour'', but these Yoshis spread to a variety of different games, many of which are just as notable in their gameplay differing stats.
+#{{user|WildWario}} Per proposal.
+====Oppose====
+#{{User|Swallow}} I'd still find this a bit excessive. The differences mentioned for games like Sunshine, Partners in Time, Yoshi's Island games don't really seem major enough to me to create an entirely new article for it. A majority of these differences can still be easily noted in this article without bloating it too much.
+#{{User|Hewer}} Basically per the proposal that merged them in the first place. If anything the points here feel like they're justifying a merge - if there's information missing from the article that concerns multiple Yoshi colours then all that needs doing is adding it, how is splitting the information across different articles meant to help?
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all, plus certain games having ambiguities with things like brown/orange and white/really really light blue.
+#{{User|Somethingone}} Per all.
+#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} This proposal fails to take into account different-colored members of other species that have similar different "stats" in the listed games, and I also agree with Hewer that it feels like attempting to falsely justify a split. Per all.
+#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
+#{{User|Wikiboy10}} After much careful consideration, I chose to oppose this. This is a tricky issue because of the few games where they do indeed have a unique ability. The problem is that there aren't ''enough'' appearances of these Yoshis to not have redundant sayings or stubs. Part of me did want to see separate articles for some of the Yoshis, but I haven't seen an attempt to show what a page could look like if it tries to split one of these colors. I saw what older pages tried to do with the colors, and the pages looked bad and cluttered. The article needs to make it easier to find a specific color which Waluigi Time is right about. This can be fixed by having a list of appearances by color section with a small table.
+#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Perall.
+#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all and my support for the merge in the first place in the prior proposal.
+#{{User|RealStuffMister}} Per all
+====Comments====
+@Hewer: The missing information is simply a separate issue that I'm making note of, obviously regardless of the direction this goes in that information should be added. It's relevant here however because that would be additional information unique to each color. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:31, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
+:Except that much of it concerns all the colours and would be kind of annoying to read if it was split across different pages (Yoshi's Woolly World for example). I feel like these subjects are so intertwined and have so much information in common that keeping them on one page is the best and most logical option, which is why we don't split most colour variants in the first place - I'm sure one could make a case for splitting Koopa Troopa colours or Toad colours for unique traits they have but the problem is that they still have tons of information in common to the point splitting over just mentioning all the differences in one place is less convenient and pushing [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|once and only once]] a little. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:55, October 29, 2022 (EDT)
+Splitting or merging the Yoshi articles into one is a rather complex issue. So I'll go into an analysis real quick:
+'''''[[Super Mario World]]''''': [[Yoshi]], Red Yoshi, Blue Yoshi, and Yellow Yoshi are somewhat distinct from each other as they have a slight difference in ability. However, splitting all four of these Yoshis is difficult because we'd say the same thing about Yoshi's friends, the only difference being their shell ability. Out of all the Yoshis, Red is probably the most splittable, as he has appeared in [[Super Mario Maker 2|more than one game with a unique ability]]. That said, that doesn't add that much more to him as a character. I have a similar issue regarding [[Blue Toad (character)|Blue Toad]] and [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)|Yellow Toad]].
+'''''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]''''': We have some distinct abilities with the Yoshis here, even if they only spit [[Juice|juice]]. Once again, there isn't enough to split the page for clarity. Furthermore, all of these Yoshi colors are unique from the other games, so you couldn't even come up with enough information for just one of these colors.
+'''''[[Super Mario Run]]''''': I don't think there's anything to split off here. All of the Yoshis are just color swaps.
+'''''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]''''': Once again, Red Yoshi is a compelling debacle. Given that these are one of his few appearances with a unique ability, it is worth noting. Not sure if he has enough appearances to split him, though, as it's pretty rare for Yoshis of different colors to have special abilities other than stat differences.
+'''''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]''''': These are just color swaps and nothing more. The names are worth noting in that section of the article.
+''[[Yoshi's Story]]'': This is interesting; we have Yoshis with different [[fruit]] preferences. Black and White Yoshi even have a distinctive [[Flutter Jump]] ability.
+'''''[[Yoshi's Island DS]]'''''/'''''[[Yoshi's New Island]]''''': Same problem with ''YI''.
+'''''[[Yoshi's Woolly World]]''''': Colors appear to be cosmetic and not gameplay-related.
+'''''[[Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time]]''''': Do each of the Yoshis have a unique personality?
+'''''[[Mario Golf: Super Rush]]''''': Same issue with ''SMR''.
+'''''[[Mario Tennis Open]]'''''/'''''[[Mario Super Sluggers]]''''': We now have different stats. This can create a loophole for splitting [[Toad (species)|Toad]] colors because of this. That's why stats are not worth anything.
+'''''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]''''': These are alternate colors for Yoshi.
+'''''[[Mario Kart Tour]]''''': Even variants of other characters have unique abilities. Is this worth splitting?
+So with my analysis, here are the Yoshis that are the most distinguishable in abilities:
+*Red Yoshi
+*Blue Yoshi
+*Yellow Yoshi
+*Orange Yoshi
+*Pink Yoshi
+*Purple Yoshi
+*Light Blue Yoshi
+*Black Yoshi
+*White Yoshi
+I didn't include Green Yoshi as Yoshi serves as the Green Yoshi, which is evident in ''Sluggers'', where Red Yoshi refers to Yoshi as Green Yoshi. This is why we should have a possible appearances section for Yoshi since he has some unclear appearances.
+A while back, [[Talk:Shell#Create_a_generic_Koopa_Shell_article,_reorganize_the_colored_shell_articles|we attempted to make a Koopa Shell article covering generic instances of a Koopa Shell and only bringing up other colors when it impacts colors.]] This could also work for the Yoshis since there are few select times when they have a unique ability.
+As for now, I'm not sure whether or not we should split them. If I were, the colors I mentioned are the only ones I would choose to separate, and even then, it's tricky not to make these feel like stub articles. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 15:23, October 31, 2022 (EDT)
+:Regarding ''Tour'' specifically, a proposal passed a while ago to make a page for each character's variants (i.e. a page containing all of Mario's variants) but it hasn't been enacted yet. (And honestly, I'd be down for splitting them into their own individual pages, but I know that's pretty radical.) Like I said, yeah, some of these aren't the most split-worthy on their own (or really split-worthy at all), but there are appearances that are worth splitting out, and enough information across the series to make a split viable. Might as well include everything relevant, after all. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
+I haven't seen the opposition address the organizational issue of all colored Yoshis being dumped into a single article making it harder to find just information on any single color, which is one of the biggest issues here, in my opinion. Any counterarguments to that?
+@Archivist Toadette: Not really, colored Yoshis have far more utility beyond just stat differences (most notably World, Sunshine, and Maker 2, where color impacts what abilities you have) and it's much easier to justify splitting colored Yoshis than colored Toads or Shy Guys (not something I'd oppose, to be fair). It's not exactly apples to apples. As an aside, I hope this wasn't your intention but your specific wording of "falsely justify" makes it sound like I'm presenting this in a deliberately misleading way or outright lying, which I don't appreciate. If you don't find it convincing, that's fine, but please try not to use terms that make the situation seem so objective. Everything I said in the proposal was accurate to my knowledge and none of the points are meant to individually justify a Yoshi split but are meant to serve as a collective example of there reasonably being different things that can be said about them in many games. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:47, November 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:The way I see it, the scope of this proposal is just too broad. I can totally see something like {{fake link|Red Yoshi}} being split out ONLY to cover the ''Super Mario World''/''Super Mario Maker 2'' form of Yoshi, but this proposal is calling for EVERY color variant of Yoshi to be split regardless of how major the color variants actually are. In the future, I suggest having an option to limit the splitting to just the ''Super Mario World'' forms (the two that don't have a proper article yet). {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 12:36, November 3, 2022 (EDT)
+:The argument that it would be hard to find such and such information goes both ways. If the article was split then it wouldn't be as easy to find information on all the colours and how they relate. And again, Toads and Koopa Troopas can have many of these same arguments applied, but in my opinion it's more concise and informative to have one article saying 'green ones go off the edge and red ones don't' than to split that into two extremely similar articles. Besides, I can't really think of a game that only has Yoshis of one particular colour besides green as the colours share basically all of their appearances with each other, so it really wouldn't be that hard to find information on any given appearance of a particular colour. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:12, November 4, 2022 (EDT)
+'''@Wikiboy10:''' I can offer my attempt at an example of what a Red Yoshi article could look like [[User:Tails777/Work#Red Yoshi|here]]. If this helps you or anyone else. It can always use improvement if anyone thinks it could work, but needs more work.
+Also, as a general comment, there's more to the colored Yoshis in ''Mario Super Sluggers'' than just different stats. They are A. all unlockable and can't be used right away. B. can't be selected as team captains. C. have different star swings/pitches from Yoshi himself, which is a bit more notable than other alternate colors since Yoshi has a captain specific star swing/pitch. and D. they do indeed have different recruitment methods in Story Mode, with some of them offering different challenges while Red Yoshi simply requires the return of his Brush.  {{User:Tails777/sig}}
+== History for this page ==
+This article is another great candidate for splitting its history section. It would be funny if the history page would be split into "History of Yoshi (species)", but it seems better if we can split it to "'''History of Yoshi species'''". {{User:Derekblue1/sig}} 09:48, December 2, 2023 (EST)
+== I've had it ==
+Okay, which one of you jokers deleted those light-blue Yoshi sprites?! {{User:BeefRocket/sig}}

Talk:Yoshi (species): Difference between revisions

Talk:Yoshi (species) (edit)

Revision as of 20:12, March 28, 2024