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Talk:Bull's-Eye Banzai: Difference between revisions
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::::There's been proposals that's been exceptions to policy before (remember our [[Dark Land]] debacle?). If "Magnum Search Killer" is one of the options, I'd support it. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:54, 27 August 2017 (EDT) | ::::There's been proposals that's been exceptions to policy before (remember our [[Dark Land]] debacle?). If "Magnum Search Killer" is one of the options, I'd support it. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:54, 27 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
:::::Yes, but that's only applicable if there's actually a proposal, and it's already too late to make changes to this one. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 16:06, 27 August 2017 (EDT) | :::::Yes, but that's only applicable if there's actually a proposal, and it's already too late to make changes to this one. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 16:06, 27 August 2017 (EDT) | ||
== SMM2 Direct == | |||
In the SMM2 Nintendo Direct [https://www.nintendo.com/nintendo-direct/05-15-2019/ here], they are referred to as "the red ones" within "Banzai Bills." Therefore, we may consider changing the page to "Banzai Bill (red)." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:04, May 15, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Are the ''Super Mario Maker 2'' elements going to be given a proper name somewhere in the game or related material? If so, we can wait to see the actual name there, otherwise if they are not going to be named anywhere else, in my opinion that colloquial name is already better than the currently deceiving one.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 08:35, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::I'm not sure wether they'll use "King Bill", or the other official name "Bull'-Eye Banzai", which was used in the Encyclopedia. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:51, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::If they do use Bull's-Eye Banzai, that'll "officialize" it just like Piranha Pod (note that Micro Piranha Plant was not given the same treatment). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:33, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::It IS official, just being made by an incompetent. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:37, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::Wasn't Bulls-Eye Banzai one of the names that wasn't copied from the wiki? {{User:Niiue/sig}} 11:57, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::Yes, but again, so was Micro Piranha Plant, which soon became Small Piranha. It's best to wait for the actual release. (And "officialize" is for lack of better word, hence in quotes.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:00, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::If anything, if NOA followed the naming conventions they followed until now, the official name would be ''Bull's Eye Banzai Bill'', so I'd hardly be surprised if this correction was made in the name used in the game, or in material related to the game.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 15:05, May 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Yeah, Bull's-Eye Banzai is more concise than King Bill. Really. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:47, May 17, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::I agree on waiting for release, because in a brief shot when they show two players making a course together in the Direct, they briefly show names of Goombas, Burners and Bill Blasters at the 5:40-ish mark. Who knows? The "King Bills" could be called something along the lines of "Bull's-Eye Banzai" in either American or British English, but we'll have to wait a month from now and see what happens. – [[User:Owencrazyboy9|Owencrazyboy9]] ([[User talk:Owencrazyboy9|talk]]) 13:17, May 21, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::For future reference, the term "King Bill" was used to refer to any type of big Bullet Bill in the Prima guide, proving Prima's incompetence in this one. Per the source priority exception, it should be moved to Bull's-Eye Banzai if it is given this name in Super Mario Maker 2. It should also be noted that the Bull's-Eye Bill's Bill Blaster wasn't differenced in Super Mario Maker. But, if the Bull's-Eye Banzai Bill (along with the aforementioned Bull's-Eye Bill's Bill Blaster are differenced from the Banzai Bill and the Bill Blaster, we wouldn't need to rename it to Magnum Search Killer per source priority exception. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:41, May 22, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::Note that a new name for the article requires overturning the previous proposal. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:01, May 22, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::Are you mainly referring to the source priority exception? Because, even though the encyclopedia had new names that did not came from any fan-source, that doesn't make Zack Davidson competent whatsoever. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:04, May 23, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::But if it is given a new name in the game, would that require a proposal as well? Because when we renamed it to "Bull's-Eye Banzai" it didn't require a proposal to overturn, either the source priority exception, or the above ones. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:09, May 23, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::I suppose not given that example, but we still don't know for sure what the name will be in ''Super Mario Maker 2''. If you're suggesting to make a source priority exception, that by itself requires overturning with another proposal because there have been several proposals on the name and identifier. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:50, May 23, 2019 (EDT) | |||
[https://youtu.be/JkAyGmE5rEA?t=258 Footage of ''SMM2'' confirms it]: it's '''Bull's-Eye Banzai'''. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 20:55, May 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Fine by me. Should we bend the rules and change it now, since the current one is misleading? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:24, May 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::I'm fine with moving any of the newly renamed ''SMM2'' objects now. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 21:30, May 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
== Treatment of the "King Bill" name == | |||
I am 100% opposed to giving "King Bill" the "old name" treatment for a multiple reasons, not the least of which being that "King Bill" ''isn't'' an "old name" but a ''wrong'' name. It does not refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais, [[King_Bill#Trivia|Prima just used it as a catch all name for any large Bullet Bill variant]]. It's not the same thing as an actual [[King Bill]] and ''we know that''. Continuing to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais is confusing as fuck; people reading the [[World 9-3 (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)|World 9-3]] article cannot tell that King Bill is referring to these and not those ''other'' King Bills from the ''same game'' unless they mouse over the links. Why be confusing instead of clear? Just because of some stupid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 47#The Usage of Old Names in Articles|naming standard]] we established a while ago? Look, I don't oppose our current "old names" policy. Hell, I was one of the voters who helped establish it. But I was in favor of it because of things like "Goomba King" vs. "Goomboss." I wanted things to be clearer for people who played ''Paper Mario'' but not the other two games he appears in, and other scenarios like that. If I had known that this would be abused in the name of sucking up to shitty guide names, I wouldn't have been so quick to vouch for it. That said, I don't retract my support for that decision - I just don't think we should be following it so rigidly. Being overly concerned with the fact that the "Bulls-Eye Banzai" name didn't exist at the time is such a lawyerly, devil's advocate way of thinking that completely misses the point of ''why'' policies and standards exist in the first place. Proposals such as [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|this one]] and [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|this one]] are made specifically because following policy in such an overly rigid and literal way actively makes the wiki worse. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 15:34, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:You're forgetting, of course, that "Bull's-Eye Banzai" is a play on "Bull's-Eye Bill" - a name which ''also'' did not exist until relatively recently (namely as late as ''Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker''). Therefore, this 'fix' alone would create a whole new disparity altogether. The simplest solution is to stick with the proposal/policy as-is, which is more chronologically-accurate anyway. If you want to discuss rewriting the existing text to be more understandable (e.g. "homing King Bills" and "invincible King Bills", or some other way to deal with it), that's fine, but the fact is that using a decade-later rename in the context of the original game makes another issue in this case. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:51, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:I agree with not using King Bill when referring to past appearances of Bull's-Eye Banzai as it's obviously one of Prima's many goofs. There's no possible way it can't be a mistake, since King Bill is the name of an entirely different enemy within the exact same game altogether. Also, not only did they mistakenly call the Bull's-Eye Banzais King Bill, but they also did that for the regular Banzai Bills, which cements it being nothing but a goof even further in my opinion. Keeping King Bill in use here would basically be the same as treating Sumo Bro. as an official name of Sledge Bros. in certain games. I really don't think the name not existing at the time is an issue, since we already do this when applicable for subjects that didn't have an English name to begin with and are given a name in a later game. We don't keep using a Japanese name or something like that for appearances in older games, even though some supported this for Nipper Dandelion. (For the record, I also think situations like [[Fish Bone#New Super Mario Bros. Wii|this]] where a Prima goof is considered an official rename because there's no other material for that specific game are in the exact same boat and should be avoided) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::I disagree, it's as if we changed "Bloober" to "Blooper" in the Super Mario Bros. article. If so, it should be called Magnum Search Killer per the usage of old names, otherwise, we'd make a counterproposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 16:50, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:@LinkTheLefty: Using adjectives like "homing" and invincible" just sounds like we're talking about the same enemy exhibiting different behaviors rather than two different enemies. It doesn't clarify anything, and going the "chronologically-accurate" route is just eschewing one brand of accuracy for an inferior one. I just don't like the idea of treating strategy guide-specific names like they're the gospel in scenarios when they are so obviously wrong. This isn't the first time you've done this; you went and changed all ''DK64''-related mentions of Gnawties to "Beavers" just because the Prima guide called them that, even though it's a generic term for an enemy that already had a proper official name. Plus, here's a genuine question: what if the "King Bill" name never existed? Would we be using a conjectural name for those articles instead, just because the thing didn't have a name ''at the time''? Of course not. After all, we have "[[Gale Hawg]]" and a bunch of "Pig Poppo" enemies because Gale Hawg appeared in ''Brawl'' as a sticker. And it can be genuinely argued that Bulls-Eye Banzai ''didn't'' have a real name at the time, since "King Bill" wasn't even being used to refer to Bulls-Eye Banzais specifically. The point of the "name at the time" policy is to not confuse the players of those specific games, not prevent some kind of paradox that would result from using later names in older games' articles. The only people who would know these things by the name "King Bill" without reading the wiki are those who read the guide, and even then, those who did so would notice the blatantly inconsistent usage of the name. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:56, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::@FanOfYoshi: "Bloober" and "Blooper" is a bad comparison since "Bloober" was a genuine official name that came from manuals and not just an obvious strategy guide fail. Also, I don't think the old name policy applies to Japanese names (e.g. [[Nipper Dandelion]]). {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:56, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::I'm not sure why you're bringing up old edits like it'll prove a point: I accidentally overlooked the brief mention of Gnawty on page 30 of the manual because it didn't have a description dedicated to it and you corrected it, simple as that. We do apply name changes over time even if they only show up in a "lower" sources (e.g. "Flipswitch Panel" is "Switch Panel" in the context of ''Super Mario 3D World''). In this case, we still refer to Banzai Bill as such because it had an established name prior to ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', but Bull's-Eye Banzai's modern name was ''not'' established because "Bull's-Eye" wouldn't even be ''conceived'' until many years later. As I must point out: changing it to Bull's-Eye Banzai in the context of the original game creates a brand new naming discrepancy with Bull's-Eye Bill, which it is plainly paired with but was originally known as Missile Bill; if exceptions are going to make inconsistencies anyway, then we should not be making them. If we were to use a different name for ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' sections, FanOfYoshi's suggestion to use the Japanese name is one solution I'd be open to meet in the middle and support, but the last time we had a similar option, [[Talk:Nipper Dandelion#Move the page to Nipper Dandelion while using its Japanese name when talking about its YIDS appearance|it didn't quite pan out]] (although it's really an unwritten rule and ''not'' explicitly against policy, as it's referring to the title and not content). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:28, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::Again, your argument that the new name is based on another new name is entirely dependent on the fact that an "older name" even exists. If it didn't our only other option would be to use the Japanese name. Which, to be honest, is a much better idea than taking an obvious goof at face value. Using "King Bill" is just trading one inconsistency for a far worse one. I brought up the Beaver thing because it ''does'' prove a point: that always taking guide names at face value is detrimental to the wiki's quality. I would have opposed that action even if it weren't for the manual; "Beaver" was not a "name change," it was a generic animal term applied by a writer who clearly didn't know what they were doing. And that's hardly the only example: just look at the [[Nokottasu]]/Turtle issue that was settled not too long ago. We went with a Japanese name because the Prima name was hogwash. Guides are often flimsy and unreliable, and not making judgment calls on the validity of their names is only going to damage our credibility. If we have to use the Japanese name, then so be it, but "King Bill" should be mentioned as Prima's mistake and nothing more.{{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:18, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::My concern here is not presenting the information in a manner that would be anachronistic, which (among other reasons) is how ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' ended up the way it did. I'll say that Prima's use of "Beaver" was also supported by the Nintendo Power guide (which only uses "beaver" to describe it) and the official website, as well as the in-game [[Battle Arena Pad#Beaver Brawl|Beaver Brawl]] (note that Kritter's name in intact there) and [[Beaver Bother]] (note the in-game instructions don't call them Gnawties), but either way, I overlooked the one mention of "Gnawty beavers" in the manual's description of Jungle Japes over all these other mentions without its name (hardly just one writer's fault). I'll also say that guides are not always faulty; after all, Blooper and Nipper Plant originated from guides when manuals were still using Bloober and Walking Pirana, and there are times like Klamber and Scorchit when we prefer Prima over Nintendo Power. At any rate, I think three of us are in agreement with using the preexisting "Magnum Search Killer" within the context of ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:44, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::I think it should probably be called "King Bill" for the section, simply because that was the only English-language name they had at the time, and using the file name when there ''is'' an English name, (even if shared with every other large Bill in the game) seems ridiculously picky IMO. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:26, June 27, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::@LTL: I never said that guides are ''always'' faulty, but it's hard to deny that guide names have caused us more than a few headaches: the aforementioned "Turtle" issue, the still ongoing "[[Huge Red Electrokoopa]]" discussion, and this are just a few examples. I'm only saying we should be able to discredit guide names that ''are'' faulty, like we did with the "Turtles." | |||
:::::::@Doc: How is something that makes articles ''less confusing'' "picky?" Should we go around changing all ''SM64DS'' mentions of [[King Boo]] to "Big Boo" because that's what the game called him? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:06, June 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::Honestly? I don't see why not. Perhaps "Big Boo (King)" on the SM64DS page and template itself. Anyways, how is it "less confusing" to arbitrarily use the Japanese name in one section when we never do that? "Turtle" was a gneric term, and it's obvious the people who wrote the DK64 PRIMA guide didn't know what they were doing and/or were eating too much sugar. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:36, June 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::I agree with Doc von Schmeltwick! I was mostly on the fence with Nipper Dandelion, but i at least hoped that we'd use its Japanese names to games and/or source prior to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, but then again.. It didn't work... As well, it's against the "old names" proposal. If this change is made, we should make a counterproposal for the old names proposal. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:40, June 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::For the record, the model data of the homing Bullet and Banzai Bills (at least in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'') is shared with their non-homing counterparts, so it wouldn't be referencing a filename; regardless, I'm for either the Prima or Japanese name in context (and I should add, we ''do'' use a Japanese name in certain context: Arewo Shitain-hakase in ''Wario Land 4''). [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:42, June 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::Dr. Shitain has a different JP name for the "Mad Scienstein" appearance, so it's also a different case. That's a big more like either K. Rool or Mr. L, depending on how you look at it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:02, June 28, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::It's obvious the people who wrote the ''NSMBWii'' Prima guide ''also'' didn't know what they were doing and/or were eating too much sugar, since they called three different Bullet Bill variants by the exact same name. If we were to use "King Bill" for Bulls-Eye Banzais, then we'd also have to use it for Banzai Bills, unless there's some material related to ''NSMBWii'' that I'm forgetting about that calls them by their proper name. If we can't use the new name, then for me it's Japanese name or bust. The "[[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|exceptions to source priority]]" proposal has already established that we can use lower priority name sources when the higher priority name is inconveniently shared with another subject. And that's exactly what "King Bill" is - a name that belongs to something else. From the exact same game. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 00:32, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::Preeeeeeeeeetty sure I remember the Nintendo Power article leading up to its release calling them by the proper name, at any rate... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:42, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::While "King Bill" was used as a blanket term for big Bullet Bills over there, they were still not given a proper name at the time. I think we should make a counterproposal to the source priority exception proposal, as it is subjective about what the better name is. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:37, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::::I agree with 7feetunder here. Just because there wasn't a proper name at the time doesn't mean a clear mistake should be legitimized. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 05:02, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::::I can definitely confirm that Banzai Bills are named King Bills in the PRIMA guide, until we find the Nintendo Power source, if we want to be consequential, we have to change the name of the Banzai Bills in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 06:03, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::::::So you mean that the game has a Nintendo Power guide? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:12, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::I don't think so. I said Nintendo Power ''article''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:15, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::::::There was definitely a screenshot of the Ludwig castle area with Banzai Bills in said screenshot, though I can't remember if it was labelled. This was a decade ago and I looked at it on a school magazine rack, so... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:13, June 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::Until we find it, we'd have to stick with the name King Bill for now. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:32, July 8, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::The way I interpret the source priority and "old names" proposal/policy is, because ''Banzai Bill'''s name was previously established, we use the name Banzai Bill in the context of ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', which is similar rationale to Cheep-Chomp and Sledge Bro being used instead of Boss Bass and Sumo Bro in ''Yoshi's Island DS'' and several ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games, respectively. Bull's-Eye Banzai wasn't established yet - basically, we're primarily treating the articles/sections with the existing info when the game was released. That aside, I'm pretty sure I too saw Banzai Bill elsewhere - it might have been from a [[List of New Super Mario Bros. Wii trading cards|trading card]], which also refers to Mechakoopa with its usual name instead of "Windup Koopas". [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:52, July 8, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::I agree to include Japanese names as a part of the "old names" policy. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:09, July 16, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::Regarding my suggestion on using the Japanese name, see [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Old names in articles regarding Japanese names|here]]. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:04, July 23, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Huh, it turns out that {{media link|NSMBWiiTC-66-Back.png|we do have an official English source treating the King Bill name in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' in the appropriate way}}. Does someone have the cards of Bullet Bills and King Bills? The back of those might be really useful for us!--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 07:48, July 30, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Good idea! --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:05, October 31, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Reopening this, since a new name has emerged regarding the ''NSMBWii'' appearance of this enemy: the Mario Portal refers to these as "Bulls-Eye Bomber Bills", while only using "King Bill" to refer to actual King Bills. Admittedly, there are a few issues with this name. First, it, like "Bulls-Eye Banzai", is derived from "Bulls-Eye Bill", which the Mario Portal also uses to refer to what was at the time called a "Missile Bill". Second, "Bomber Bill" is a name used by the portal to refer to Banzai Bills (and not just for ''NSMBWii''), creating another inconsistency. I'd still rather use it than "King Bill". King Bill is used by Prima to refer to all large Bullet Bill variants including <s>Banzai</s> Bomber Bills, so it's inconsistent either way. Furthermore, using King Bill to refer to two completely different Bullet Bill variants from the same game is extremely confusing to readers. We have to use ''some'' name other than "King Bill" for ''NSMBWii'', even if it's not this new one. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 01:10, August 14, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:First of all, while of course we still need to mention the ''Missile Bill'' name used in the Prima guide, it's important to note how said name was used exclusively by Prima Games, Nintendo of America consistently used ''Bull's Eye Bills'' to refer to these enemies. The material of Nintendo Co. Ltd. consistently stated that those were ''Search Killers'' as well, and now the English translation of the Mario Portal uses the term ''Bull's Eye Bills'' to refer to those enemies in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. We can't fault Nintendo for using a name they always used, and if our view prevents us from using said name, I'd say it's time to change our view. | |||
:The real problem is rather the new consistent renaming of Banzai Bills into Bomber Bills. It's fully consistent, not in a single place of the translated Mario Portal a different name is used, but at the same time as far as I know no game has used this updated name yet. Considering how consistent it is, I wouldn't be surprised if a future game uses ''Bomber Bill'', but until then, it makes the choice of using said name tougher. Maybe we should really wait for ''Bomber Bill'' to surface in the games so that we rename the pages and thus we have less of a concern in using said term even in the context of ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''?--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 09:52, August 14, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::The thing is that there are dozens of examples of Mario Portal unifying the most recent name/spelling with older material: you have basically the entire ''Super Mario Bros.''/''The Lost Levels'' section (including Lava Bubble), Shoe Goomba, Flame Chomp, Fire Piranha Plant and Mini Goomba appearing as early as the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' section, Galoomba and its variants in ''Super Mario World'', Maw-Ray and Cheep Chomp in ''Super Mario 64'', <s>Frost Piranha in ''New Super Mario Bros. U''</s> etc. Just about the only inconsistency between sections is the occasional resized enemies and Ground/Hot Urchin for some reason. So if Nintendo is using the name "Bull's-Eye Bill" before its creation, I wouldn't necessarily take that to mean Missile Bill is separate, just that its use has depreciated like everything else before it, and that runs contrary to our general goal of honoring the older names where applicable. I do wonder if Banzai Bill (and Parabomb) has been renamed and that "Boomer Bill" was a sign of things to come, but we can take that as it comes. As it stands, I don't see the point of calling Bull's-Eye Banzais "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills" unless we're also using "Bomber Bills" for Banzai Bills. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:46, August 14, 2022 (EDT) | |||
Something that just came to mind: one of the original arguments against using "Bulls-Eye Banzai" for its ''NSMBWii'' appearance was that it was derived from "Bulls-Eye Bill", a name which did not (or at least was not known to) exist at the time. However, the same thing applies to [[Jumping Fire Piranha Plant]], a ''Super Mario World''-exclusive enemy whose name is derived from [[Fire Piranha Plant]], which was known as "Venus Fire Trap" at the time. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:54, August 27, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:In fairness, Jumping Fire Piranha Plant apparently didn't even get its Japanese name until ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', which was well beyond the point Nintendo stopped using Venus Fire Trap in English. Their approach to legacy names isn't the same as ours. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 15:30, August 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
== Call the Bull's-Eye Banzais in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' only "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills" == | |||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|red|Refer to as King Bill 1-8}} | |||
Lemme tell you what: Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills debuted in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' as variant of both the Missile Bill and the Banzai Bill. I see that both Banzai Bills and Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills are mistaken called King Bills in the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' PRIMA Official Game Guide. I was just wondering if there's a possibility to call the Bull's-Eye Banzais in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' just "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills" instead of "King Bills". | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': January 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Support=== | |||
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal | |||
===Oppose=== | |||
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}}: It may have been a mistake, but it's still a name and we should not ignore it. | |||
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per PrincessPeachFan. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Unlike the wiki, Mario Portal generally applies name changes retroactively (e.g. [[Blooper]] instead of Bloober, [[Maw-Ray]] instead of Unagi), so it seems weird to use this as the name from NSMBW when that's really not what it is. I don't see why we would do this rather than just rename the whole thing to Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill, and since we're waiting for Bomber Bill to be used in a game before we start calling Banzai Bill that, it makes sense to follow suit here. | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all | |||
#{{User|Arend}} As much as I personally believe that the name "Swoopin' Stu" has been misattributed to [[Gooble]] instead of the [[Winged Strollin' Stu]], the fact of the matter is that Goobles have been called "Swoopin' Stus" in the official Mario Sunshine guide and we cannot change that. Same deal here. Unless we find an official guide for New Super Mario Bros. Wii that actually calls them Bull's-Eye Banzais (since the name "Bomber Bill" has not been in use at that point of time at all), we unfortunately have to refer to the NSMBWii iteration as the misattributed "King Bill" name, since that was the only official name of these things at that point of time. | |||
#{{User|Mister Wu}} The general policy is using the name of the time, and the only English name we can source is ''King Bill'', no matter if it’s a blatant mistake made by the author of the Prima guide (it almost certainly is) | |||
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I would much rather have it be retroactively referred to as "Bull's-Eye Banzai" than the more recent "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill". | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. <small>(also let's not give them ideas about using the name "Magnum Search Killer" in the NSMBWII section)</small> | |||
===Comments=== | |||
You know, I'm not a big fan of "PRIMA calls one enemy a different name and I don't like it." People make mistakes all the time. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 06:55, January 13, 2024 (EST) | |||
:That's okay. Sometimes, you just need to do stuff that you don't like. The English ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' entry on the official Mario Portal officially calls the Bull's-Eye Banzai Bill the "Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill" in the game, which obviously makes more sense to me. Even if the proposal will fail in the next two weeks, changes will be enforced. What do you say? {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 18:06, January 13, 2024 (EST) | |||
::The changes cannot be enforced if the proposal fails. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 18:08, January 13, 2024 (EST) | |||
::: @GuntherBB Yeah, if the proposal fails, you can't change the big red bullet's name. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:07, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::What Swallow said. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:04, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::::Right. So if the proposal fails, it will be declined, and we'll need to leave it the way it is. {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 11:09, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::::Now, let's wait until we find an official source calling the Banzai Bill in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' the Bomber Bill. {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 11:12, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::::::I'll just direct you to [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62#Move Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and other related species|this proposal]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 13:18, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
My thoughts. | |||
My seething hatred for the "Prima name" from years ago ''has not died down one bit''. I railed against it then, and I'll rail against it now. No one is ever going to convince me that just "accepting it" is the right choice here. The mistake isn't even unique to this specific enemy; why shouldn't we also call the Banzai Bills in this game "King Bills" as well? I can at least ''understand'' the Construction Site Fight/Balloon Barrage thing, even if I don't agree with it. Not this. This is just taking "stick to the guidelines" way too far, like having the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|''MP3'' duel board names in ALL CAPS]]. | |||
That said, the proposed solution is not the correct one. A better idea would be to use the Japanese name or refer to them generically ([https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:7feetunder/sandbox&oldid=4114603 e.g. homing Banzai Bill]). At least that's less confusing to readers, as opposed to eschewing clarity and credibility in favor of shamelessly clinging to established standards like a life raft. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:45, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
:<s>Fellow "homing King Bill" hater here. I'm adverse to the idea of using a generic name, but I'd absolutely support the option to use "Magnum Search Killer" instead.</s> Withdrawing my comment at FanOfYoshi's insistence, as I begrudgingly accept "King Bill" as the only name we have for this enemy at ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''{{'}}s time... [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 17:00, January 14, 2024 (EST) | |||
:How on earth is "Magnum Search Killer" less confusing to readers than "King Bill"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:23, January 15, 2024 (EST) | |||
::I'd argue it is ''even '''more''''' confusing, because that would be like referring Clampy to as Akoyagai in its Super Mario Galaxy sections. <s>Yes, i'm referencing [[Special:Diff/2709860|an edit from my past-self]]</s> --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:13, January 17, 2024 (EST) | |||
@FanOfYoshi "Let's not give them ideas"? It's fine to shut down bad ideas, but you shouldn't get too personal against other users. Sorry if I'm overstepping any boundaries. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:46, January 17, 2024 (EST) | |||
:I didn't mean anything by it. If anything, i was just trying to comedically play it up a bit. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:51, January 17, 2024 (EST) | |||