Talk:Wario's Warehouse: Difference between revisions

Talk:Wario's Warehouse (edit)

Revision as of 20:48, June 3, 2023

11,048 bytes added , 1 year ago

→‎Post proposal comments: it was replying to this

Mario

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 == Delete page and anything related to it from the wiki ==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|blue|canceled by the administrators}}<small>Evidence that Wario's Warehouse was real has been found, see comments.</small>
 The article cites zero sources (word-of-mouth such as "actually, I saw this website before my own eyes!" is a worthless source, even if there's a consensus around it), and all Google knows on this subject is ultimately derived from this wiki. I realise that Wayback Machine's archiving system has always been finicky with Nintendo's European websites, but screen-capturing or downloading the web page wholesale have always served as alternatives to that, and nobody made an inkling of effort towards proving the material's authenticity. At this point I doubt even the site's URL was preserved.
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 '''Deadline''': June 9, 2023, 23:59 GMT
-====Support====
+====Delete page and remove anything related to it from the wiki====
 #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Archive your stuff, peeps, lest it dies out in the aether.
 #{{User|Somethingone}} This sounds a lot like the old [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_Paper_Mario:_The_Thousand-Year_Door_pre-release_and_unused_content&oldid=727057 "Beta 9"] hoax that someone did.
 #{{User|PaperSplash}} If its existence can't actually be proven then I don't think it has a place on the wiki. Per the proposal, if proper evidence surfaces we can always recreate this article which ''is'' archived.
 #{{User|Superstarxalien169}} Regrettably I have to agree with this proposal. I do think this could be moved to the wiki jokes archive, in any case.
+#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} As much as it disappoints me to do this, I also have to agree with the proposal. Because no one can verify that the pages ever existed, there is no way to prove the authenticity of any of this information.
+#{{User|ExoRosalina}} Per ThePowerPlayer.
+====Move page to the BJAODN archive and remove anything else related to it from the wiki====
+#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Hey, it'd take less work to revive it if we ''do'' find proof of its existence.
+#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Might as well.
+#{{User|PaperSplash}} I'd be open to this as well.
+#{{User|Superstarxalien169}} As per my previous comment.
+#{{User|Swallow}} Per SolemnStormcloud, until proof is found we should keep it off mainspace then we could simply put it back if proof is ever found.
 ====Oppose====
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 #{{User|Arend}} I do have to agree with Spectrogram. The fact that the Wario's Warehouse article contents on the talk page (not sure why they're not on the main article itself) are added by a different user from the one who created the article (and a month later too, no less) means there's at least one other person who corroborates that the Wario's Warehouse articles truly existed at one point
 #{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per Spectrogram, I don't really see how or why anybody would write up this much information just for a hoax, and I think there is sufficient evidence to basically, if not completely, prove its existence. Sure, it's not the most complete article, but it's information, and if it's the real deal then we might as well keep it. We can't prove the moon landing, and yet what do schools teach?
+#{{User|Camwoodstock}} - We feel extremely strongly that unless this can be proven a hoax, deleting this article just because its source was lost is a potentially dangerous mis-step. If this was fake, there'd probably not be contemporary sources mentioning it. See Meester's comment in particular on [https://web.archive.org/web/20071221082539/https://www.mariomayhem.com/reference/character_bios/waluigi_biography.php this fansite, which cites it]. Just because something is lost doesn't mean we just nix it because "you can't prove it existed, so it doesn't"; do we refrain from mentioning [[Shitamachi Ninjō Gekijō#Sixth broadcast|the 6th broadcast of that one Satellaview Slideshow Thing]] just because we can only prove images and not an airdate? No, we let it through anyways because there's enough contemporary sources corroborating "yep, this was real". If there's lost or otherwise defunct and unplayable media related to the Mario franchise, we should treat it with the same regard as things that ''are'' playable and accessible, unless we can prove, concretely, without a shadow of a doubt, that it is a hoax; not just act upon a gut feeling of a few editors.
+#{{User|Tails777}} Per Camwoodstock.
 ====Comments====
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 @MegaBowser64: "''I think there is sufficient evidence to basically, if not completely, prove its existence.''" Please provide said evidence. "''We can't prove the moon landing, and yet what do schools teach?''" Two mistakes: (a) dressing your logic with a tinfoil hat. The moon landing has a vast amount of literature, discussions, and involved people that can vouch for it (and how else would you be able to confirm it to yourself? Best thing you can do is personally take a trip to the Moon to witness the Apollo 11 crew's bootprints); the subject concerned by this proposal has... a user with some good edits from 2007. (b) You're operating under the assumption that the educational system in any given country is somehow infallible and should serve as a yardstick for this website's endeavours. Point being, I doubt your example is remotely comparable. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:20, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+So, we don't know where else to mention this; there's a few other Internet website archives other than the Wayback Machine, has anyone thought to check those? Has anyone asked the Lost Media Wiki? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:14, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+I came across this site: https://pixelatron.com/blog/about/ from a Mark Green, who claims to have co-written Wario's Warehouse along with Richard Moulton, and according to his Linkedin he worked at Nintendo at the right kind of time. Seems like his site is inactive and the twitter linked from his linkedin is gone but I'll try emailing him on the off chance he has anything to add? I'll see if I can find any contact details for Richard Moulton too. [[User:Tmjjmt|Tmjjmt]] ([[User talk:Tmjjmt|talk]]) 15:03, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+: If contact could be established, that'd be huge. This feels like probably the closest thing short of an actual website screenshot. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:12, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+::Well, from this, it looks like we can probably verify that the content existed at some point (though IMO we might have to verify these people too), and I don't think the article should be deleted, but be left with a improvement template that the article needs sourcing and new additions MUST be sourced. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:18, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+: This is absolutely huge for proving its existance, great find! Mark Green was the European Editorial Coordinator at Nintendo, and states "The Super Mario Wiki has the complete collection of Wario’s Warehouse articles that Richard Moulton and I co-wrote at Nintendo. Several of our silly throwaway ideas are apparently now Nintendo canon. That’s awkward." --[[File:PM Tweester Sprite.png|30px]] It's [[User: Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]]! 16:32, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+@Camwoodstock: The fansite you mentioned was archived on December 2007, many months after both the Wiki's page and talk page were made featuring the supposed articles from Wario's Warehouse. The information in it could've very well come from the Mario Wiki itself. While I am undecided on what to do, I find it noteworthy that nobody can find a single reference to Wario's Warehouse that for sure existed before the Mario Wiki's page. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 15:10, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+IMO there should be an option to archive to BJAODN just in case anything like this gets actually sourced in the future. We deleted the Conker and Banjo series pages and I've been unable to restore THAT due to the content just not being available in the database I'm afraid. Luckily, those series pages have been wayback'd so. {{User:Mario/sig}} 15:13, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+@Camwoodstock, the burden of proof is not on the people disputing the material's existence. If I wrote on the wiki that Daisy is Wario's daughter because Miyamoto sent me an e-mail about it, I'm the one who has to back up this statement, not the rest of the userbase. Your Satellaview analogy isn't compatible, as that broadcast was archived in its original state and the unknown date isn't representative of its contents. Also, ''you didn't just unapologetically cite someone's soapbox as definitive proof.'' {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:53, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+BJAODN option is the worst one, even worse than deleting the page for lack of concrete proof. This is not a "bad joke". This is not a "deleted nonsense". This is an actual article. There is no mistake here, there is nothing that could be considered funny. It's just an article. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 16:16, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
 ====Nintendo of Europe response====
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 [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 07:23, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+==Post proposal comments==
+[BJAODN option is the worst one, even worse than deleting the page for lack of concrete proof. This is not a "bad joke". This is not a "deleted nonsense". This is an actual article. There is no mistake here, there is nothing that could be considered funny. It's just an article. Spectrogram (talk) 16:16, May 27, 2023 (EDT)]
+:It seems like the only way to keep the content without having to delete it and risk losing it in the long term (hell not even Wayback is safe imo). Also, assuming the page is absolutely made-up in the worst-case scenario, I think it takes quite an imagination to make up this kind of elaborate nonsense (perhaps in the exceptional case where no one wants this in bjaodn, I COULD just store it as a user subpage or something), and I DO find the content itself quite funny. I believe the only real "reason" for content to qualify for bjaodn is "someone found it funny". {{User:Mario/sig}} 17:23, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+Mark's replies, shared with permission: https://imgur.com/gallery/NjUA4C3 Unfortunately he wasn't able to provide us with any "proof" as it were but seeing as he recognised at least some of the text on the talk page, its very likely (again, not proven admittedly) that it's all legit since it was all posted as one big text dump. Incidentally the most I could find on Richard Moulton is an article from 2010 with a Nintendo UK email address with his name, but it bounced back when I tried to email him. I'd guess he's left Nintendo and the address deactivated. [[User:Tmjjmt|Tmjjmt]] ([[User talk:Tmjjmt|talk]]) 19:35, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+:[[File:Club Nintendo Classic SMB2 01.png|70px]] Fantastic. Let's upload these in case imgur becomes useless in the future. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:09, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+::So would it be OK to put the Wario's Warehouse articles atop this talk page on the article page as well, or do we need to hear Richard's word on it first (which I suppose may take a while finding an email address of his that is still in use)? {{User:Arend/sig}} 22:36, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+:::That's great news! Additionally, Mark Green can be vouched for, as he won [https://www.oneclub.org/awards/theoneshow/-award/2713/gameboy-advance-sp this award in 2004] for writing for Nintendo of Europe. --[[File:PM Tweester Sprite.png|30px]] It's [[User: Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]]! 23:31, May 27, 2023 (EDT)
+:: [[File:RHMM Dr Crygor Perfect.png|40px]] Per Mario; I agree. If imgur becomes a paid service in future, then these proofs of Wario Warehouse's existence would be safe, free off charge. And, as for the Giulia's letter, I am waiting for further notice, they might restore it. {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 06:05, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
+::For what it's worth, we've taken the liberty to download the imgur files ourselves; if nobody else wants to upload them and potentially link to them in a citation or something, we could do that. It's not like we haven't cited emails before; see the Wario Land II enemies and the VB Wario Land bosses. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:07, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
+== E-mail Transcripts & Images ==
+For the sake of archival (imgur is a very volatile service, and [https://www.engadget.com/imgur-to-ban-explicit-images-and-delete-uploads-not-tied-to-an-account-122537118.html in the wake of recent announcements about their treatment of images not tied to accounts], we don't trust it very much for long-term archival prospects), accessibility (images are obviously unavailable to screenreaders), and simply for having something to properly cite, we have mirrored the imgur images as well as provided a text transcript of the emails sent by Mark Green. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:20, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
+===1st Email Transcript===
+[[File:WarioWarehouseMarkGreenCorrespondance1.jpg|thumb|right|150px]]
+<blockquote>Hi James,
+Wow this is a blast from the past! Thanks for reaching out.
+Yes I can confirm the Wario's Warehouse series was very real! It was the article we wrote to introduce the weekly (or fortnightly?) tips and cheats published on the then-new Nintendo of Europe website. If my memory's right, I think Richard and I took turns writing it.
+I think the dates might be slightly off on the wiki. I joined Nintendo in 2002 and that's the same year the website launched, so that means Wario's Warehouse can't have existed in 2001. I left Nintendo in 2004 and I'm pretty sure Richard kept writing it after I left.
+Hope that helps! Strange to think all evidence of the series is lost except for the wiki! I love a lost media rabbithole, so it's very weird to be a part of one myself :)
+Thanks,<br>
+Mark</blockquote>
+===2nd Email Transcript===
+[[File:WarioWarehouseMarkGreenCorrespondance2.jpg|thumb|right|150px]]
+<blockquote>Hi James,
+Happy for you to share that email! Please don't share this email address though (the pixelatron email address is ok to share).
+Really sorry but I don't have any of the material. I can reassure you the Talk page archive definitely isn't completely made up - I dimly recognise some stuff in there as my own, or at least very much my style. Lots of it doesn't ring a bell but that might be the ones Richard wrote, especially if he wrote them after I left Nintendo.
+Sorry I can't be more help!
+Thanks,<br>
+Mark</blockquote>