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Talk:Morty Mole: Difference between revisions
→Morty Mole being a Monty Mole variant
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==Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole== | ==Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|3-7|keep merge}} | |||
These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole. | These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole. | ||
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#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per proposal. | #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Lord Bowser}} Per my comment below. | #{{User|Lord Bowser}} Per my comment below. | ||
#{{User|3D Player 2010}} per all. | |||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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:::::Well that changes things around a bit. But it's worth noting that this Wiki decided that "Spiny Cheep Cheep" and "Spiny Fish" were different despite the fact that they had the same Japanese name, and the fact that Panser and Volcano Plant have the same Japanese name, Boss Bass's Japanese name is now the same as Cheep Chomp, though it was formerly ''similar'' to "Big Cheep Cheep", along other enemies having similar cases. But I suppose that's pretty solid evidence. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 14:11, 20 July 2017 (CT) | :::::Well that changes things around a bit. But it's worth noting that this Wiki decided that "Spiny Cheep Cheep" and "Spiny Fish" were different despite the fact that they had the same Japanese name, and the fact that Panser and Volcano Plant have the same Japanese name, Boss Bass's Japanese name is now the same as Cheep Chomp, though it was formerly ''similar'' to "Big Cheep Cheep", along other enemies having similar cases. But I suppose that's pretty solid evidence. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 14:11, 20 July 2017 (CT) | ||
::::::Panser and Volcano Plant are [http://i.imgur.com/4B6NHtp.jpg listed] [http://i.imgur.com/elnhv1F.jpg separately] in a Japanese art book, so I think that's enough to consider them coincidental like [http://i.imgur.com/LLHeN6l.jpg these] [http://i.imgur.com/6NQjIZW.jpg two], [http://i.imgur.com/FhX8XMN.jpg this] or [http://i.imgur.com/Fgnh4Jw.jpg that] (though the same source bizarrely splits others like [http://i.imgur.com/MF1dZ7H.jpg Sidestepper], [http://i.imgur.com/HYeUOpv.jpg Fighter] [http://i.imgur.com/dqFFR51.jpg Fly] and [http://i.imgur.com/3OabVR8.jpg Pauline], but the writers were probably either just unfamiliar with the earlier arcade games or didn't take [http://hit930.sakura.ne.jp/hitjapan/book1/P1112290024.JPG any] [http://i.imgur.com/z9vOPNp.jpg name] [http://i.imgur.com/Z6Iudls.jpg changes] into account). Side note, said book does have [http://i.imgur.com/QXBH2wp.jpg Mega Mole] artwork, but it's likely newly-illustrated from the sprite rather than the concept since it's not in the player's guide. The others you've mentioned...I personally don't fully stand by them for the most part (Spiny Fish if I remember was reproposed before complete awareness of the Japanese, etc.), but that's another discussion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | ::::::Panser and Volcano Plant are [http://i.imgur.com/4B6NHtp.jpg listed] [http://i.imgur.com/elnhv1F.jpg separately] in a Japanese art book, so I think that's enough to consider them coincidental like [http://i.imgur.com/LLHeN6l.jpg these] [http://i.imgur.com/6NQjIZW.jpg two], [http://i.imgur.com/FhX8XMN.jpg this] or [http://i.imgur.com/Fgnh4Jw.jpg that] (though the same source bizarrely splits others like [http://i.imgur.com/MF1dZ7H.jpg Sidestepper], [http://i.imgur.com/HYeUOpv.jpg Fighter] [http://i.imgur.com/dqFFR51.jpg Fly] and [http://i.imgur.com/3OabVR8.jpg Pauline], but the writers were probably either just unfamiliar with the earlier arcade games or didn't take [http://hit930.sakura.ne.jp/hitjapan/book1/P1112290024.JPG any] [http://i.imgur.com/z9vOPNp.jpg name] [http://i.imgur.com/Z6Iudls.jpg changes] into account). Side note, said book does have [http://i.imgur.com/QXBH2wp.jpg Mega Mole] artwork, but it's likely newly-illustrated from the sprite rather than the concept since it's not in the player's guide. The others you've mentioned...I personally don't fully stand by them for the most part (Spiny Fish if I remember was reproposed before complete awareness of the Japanese, etc.), but that's another discussion. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | ||
:::::::Well, I'm a lot less persistent about this now that I know that they have the same Japanese name....does "Indi" have an actual meaning, such as regarding moles? If so, I'd like to point out that [[File: | :::::::Well, I'm a lot less persistent about this now that I know that they have the same Japanese name....does "Indi" have an actual meaning, such as regarding moles? If so, I'd like to point out that [[File:SpikedFunGuyYoshi'sStoryArt.png|x50px]]this monstrosity has the same Japanese name as [[File:Old Pokey 64.png]] ''this'' monstrosity. Although saying that Pokey's been through some design changes would be an understatement I suppose. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 10:07, 20 July 2017 (CT) | ||
::::::::I can't think of an obvious meaning for "Indy" at the moment, but one thing's for sure - it's a pretty deliberate and unmistakable name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:20, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | ::::::::I can't think of an obvious meaning for "Indy" at the moment, but one thing's for sure - it's a pretty deliberate and unmistakable name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:20, 20 July 2017 (EDT) | ||
::::::::Internal name doesn't necessarily mean it's the Japanese name. At this point I'm neutral about this proposal, but when I get the answer from Mister Wu about Morty Mole's Japanese name, I may vote. --[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 02:39, 21 July 2017 (EDT) | ::::::::Internal name doesn't necessarily mean it's the Japanese name. At this point I'm neutral about this proposal, but when I get the answer from Mister Wu about Morty Mole's Japanese name, I may vote. --[[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 02:39, 21 July 2017 (EDT) | ||
:::::::::Possibly, but the file nonetheless still tells us that the ''Super Mario 3D World'' developers clearly considered it an update of the original ''Super Mario World'' enemy. If the | :::::::::Possibly, but the file nonetheless still tells us that the ''Super Mario 3D World'' developers clearly considered it an update of the original ''Super Mario World'' enemy. If the names are different in the book, also keep in mind that ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' apparently lists all the "legacy" names for each game at the time of print and doesn't retroactively apply newer names to older games (resized ones in this case). Japanese go through name changes just like English, as we've seen many times. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:05, 21 July 2017 (EDT) | ||
::::::::::Update as in "give this a new name and appearance", or update as in "make a new thing using the old thing as a precursor"? Because first, [[Toad Balloon]]s in NSMBW were originally green coins and are still called that internally ([https://tcrf.net/New_Super_Mario_Bros._Wii#Green_Coins here's a link to confirm it on some level]). Second, the latter can be actually argued for the already much-deliberated Cheep Chomp, which the 30th anniversary memorial book indirectly separates from Boss Bass by not listing SMB3 in its bio. | |||
::::::::::Btw, Mega Mole and Morty Mole's Japanese names are indeed different in the ESMB book. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 04:53, 23 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::We don't have any evidence here that suggests the developers switched gears mid-development and consciously made an entirely new thing over what they had. Internal names are fine within reason, and it undoubtedly reflects the result in this case (a big Monty Mole is a big Monty Mole). As I've mentioned, the way that ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' is organized is that it lists and relists enemies for each separate game category, using the name that was used in game and guide material at the time of the original game's release; it doesn't list an object once and only once along with the first appearance like we do with wiki articles, so it's not a good source if you’re looking for name changes like I've demonstrated with the art book. By that logic, you can also say that it indirectly states that all the big enemies in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' didn't return in later games ("''Kyodai''" [Giant] in ''SMB3'' was changed to "''Deka''" [Big] by ''NSMB'' & ''Galaxy''), which would be splitting hairs and make a mess of things. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:46, 23 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::Note that saying that the "Deka" enemies are the same as the "Kyodai" enemies would mean that the original Boss Bass and Big Bertha are the same as Big Cheep Cheep. Which they aren't. It's a different type of "larger" enemy, marked by a difference in behavior and appearance. Much like Mega and Morty. {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 16:48, 23 July 2017 (CT) | |||
::::::::::::::In Japanese, Boss Bass was already renamed sooner than ''New Super Mario Bros.'' - it went from "''Kyodai Pukupuku''" in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' to "''Bakubaku''" in ''Super Mario 64'' (''DS'') and ''Yoshi's Island DS'' (meaning that, yes, it's still considered the same thing as Cheep Chomp, but ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' preserves the original names in each game section). The others (Grand Goomba, Gargantua Koopa Troopa, Colossal Koopa Paratroopa, and Giant Piranha Plant) didn't have that precedent when their Japanese names were being shifted, and are very obviously the same thing. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::Which is the ''exact'' reason I said "the original". {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 17:32, 23 July 2017 (CT) | |||
:::::::::::::Just to clarify, when I said memorial book, I meant [http://newlaunches.com/archives/super-marios-memorial-book-commemorates-his-30th-birthday.php this]. This book itself doesn't use "legacy names", not even of the Koopalings who are otherwise called "Kokuppa" in anything SMB3 related. Mister Wu said that Cheep Chomp is listed from SM64 onwards in it, while Boss Bass isn't there, thus the argument for that. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 08:56, 26 July 2017 (EDT) | |||
== Morty Mole Artwork == | |||
I was wondering if someone can tell me where the Morty Mole artwork came from? Also could someone upload the Morty Mole model? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:02, September 29, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:It's from the Shogakukan guide. I used to have access to a .pdf of the enemies page (which had art for the other enemies, including Rocky and Monty), but I can't now. I believe the .pdf was provided by {{user|L151}}. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:31, September 29, 2021 (EDT) | |||
What info did that guidebook have? And was there also Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench artwork to? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:47, September 29, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:I just said it did...anyways, Shogakukan is the Japanese guidebook series, so I don't quite know what it said. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:57, September 29, 2021 (EDT) | |||
Well thanks for the info but I had one more question? Was there any official sources saying that Morty Moles are larger Monty Moles? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:04, September 29, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== 3D Model == | |||
Hey, could someone provide a data rendered model for Morty Mole (also a data rendered model for Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench in 3D Land as well)? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 20:17, November 8, 2021 (EST) | |||
== Morty Mole being a Monty Mole variant == | |||
Should Morty Mole be a Monty Mole variant instead of a Mega Mole variant? They could be Mega Mole relatives due to their filename but they are clearly meant to be larger Monty Moles. Also, was there ever a source that stated them as larger Monty Moles like Mega Moles? I know it is obvious that they are, but I am wondering if they were every 100% officially stated as such. What do you guys think? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:47, December 4, 2021 (EST) | |||
:Page 15 of the ''Super Mario 3D Land'' Prima guide loosely refers to Morty Moles as "oversized enemies" but otherwise there is no direct connection to Monty Mole stated in it or ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' The only other official source left to look would probably be the ''Super Mario 3D Land'' Shogakukan guide. Morty Mole is considered derived from Mega Mole due to it being true on a conceptual level at least. This isn't really out of the ordinary when you consider that Porcupuffer stands in for Big Cheep Cheep in the same game. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:50, December 5, 2021 (EST) | |||