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Talk:Ashley: Difference between revisions
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==A "split into separate articles" proposal? Oh no, not again!== | ==A "split into separate articles" proposal? Oh no, not again!== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|12-1|split}} | |||
Now, hear me out. I'm well aware that this has been tried before and repeatedly (and near-unanimously!) rejected, but I believe that things are different now. In the time since the last rejected proposal to split this article, ''WarioWare: Get It Together!'' has been released, a game which very clearly makes a distinction between character duos who function as duos and character duos who are separate. ''Get It Together!'' presents Ashley and Red very unambiguously as two separate characters, rather than as merely two halves of a team. They are still a team, of course, but they're presented more similarly to the ''n''-Volts than to Kat and Ana. | Now, hear me out. I'm well aware that this has been tried before and repeatedly (and near-unanimously!) rejected, but I believe that things are different now. In the time since the last rejected proposal to split this article, ''WarioWare: Get It Together!'' has been released, a game which very clearly makes a distinction between character duos who function as duos and character duos who are separate. ''Get It Together!'' presents Ashley and Red very unambiguously as two separate characters, rather than as merely two halves of a team. They are still a team, of course, but they're presented more similarly to the ''n''-Volts than to Kat and Ana. | ||
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#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per GiT | #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per GiT | ||
#{{User|Tails777}} While I have supported the idea of keeping them merged, that was merely for consistency sake. I do support the idea of splitting them, but the right time was needed. I feel this is finally the right time. While it's true a grand majority of their appearances have been together, GiT does fully showcase different abilities and even different availability (as Red isn't available till post game). That's on top of their already different personalities and powers (even if Ashley's abilities do make use of/borderline rely on Red's). Either way, I feel we've reached a point where they can be split. | |||
#{{user|Blhte}} No reason not split. ''Those duos has completely unique personality'' and, I know not very important, but at least they received splitted character profiles in WW, SM, Gold and GiT. Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, I've thought that it's weird we kept them merged ever since Get It Together came out. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all. | |||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Oh boy, yet another, we must split these two characters' pages. Just because they are playable separately in the game, doesn't warrant a split. We only do that if we have enough substantial information on the two. The gameplay elements of these two aren't enough to warrant a split. | |||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
@Waluigi Time: You once [[Talk:Ashley & Red#Remain_Merged:|voted in favor of keeping these articles merged.]] Any reason why you suddenly changed your mind? [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 22:59, February 16, 2023 (EST) | |||
:@Wikiboy10 "Substantial information"...? Really sorry, but can I know what type of information would support the split and be acceptable to you at same time? Are [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n08/azwj/kat/profile.html splited] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n08/azwj/dribble/profile.html profile] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rodj/profile/p04.html like] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/rodj/profile/p18.html these] ok? <s>And I think two years is actually not sudden</s> {{User:Blhte/sig}} 23:29, February 16, 2023 (EST) | |||
:@Wikiboy10 The difference now is that those previous proposals were all before Get It Together came out, in which they are entirely separate playable characters, and if that isn't enough to split them, what is? I've also noticed you tend to get defensive and ask why whenever people change their minds even though you could find out why they changed their minds just by reading their votes and the proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 06:40, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
::Yeah, it's honestly a bit of a weird question, Wikiboy. Given that Waluigi Time said "per proposal", and the proposal clearly states what has changed since the previous attempt, you'd think it could be very easily assessed that Ashley and Red's treatment in GiT is what "suddenly" changed his mind on the matter. I mean, asking for elaboration is fine, but I personally thought this specific vote was pretty obvious. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:57, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::Pretty simple, I found the arguments of the opposition more convincing two years ago, but new information has come out since then and I think it's appropriate to split them now - "per proposal" sums it up, I agree with the points raised here and that's that. I didn't see a need to expand on that, and I still don't, really, I thought my stance here was pretty obvious. I have to be honest that this does strike me as a pretty odd question, particularly on this proposal of all things, it's not like barely anything has changed since the previous one. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:21, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
@Wikiboy10: I'm fairly certain two characters being playable separately ''is'' sufficient to justify two separate articles. Why else would there be separate articles for [[Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series)]] and [[Blue Toad (character)]], or a whole dedicated article about [[Junior (II)]]? Whether those ''should'' remain separate articles is another discussion, but this article already has more information about Red as an individual character than some of these other articles have about their subjects, so I believe that we've surpassed the point of "substantial information". [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 10:27, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
Not well versed enough in WarioWare to vote on this, but one thing I want to point out: this is a featured article, so how will that be impacted if the split happens? {{User:Swallow/sig}} 14:40, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
:I'm not the final authority here, but since Ashley is the "main" member of the duo, I think it would make the most sense to treat it as Red being split off, with Ashley remaining as the "original" page and retaining the featured status. Whether the article is still worthy of that status post-split would be its own separate conversation. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:21, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
My problem with splitting these articles is our lack of information on Red. He's a pretty flat character and doesn't have enough unique personality traits. He serves as Ashley's sidekick and typically appears with her. So if we split them, [[MarioWiki:Once_and_only_once|we'd be saying the same things about Ashley]]. Where do you try to condense the article to where you can only talk about just him, aside from that one game? Even in ''Get It Together!'' Red does appear within Ashley's story. It's not like we have separate screentime with the two to warrant a split. If Red had a whole section to himself where he interacted with Penny, and we learn more traits about him, that's substantial enough for me. Or heck, if Ashley had more appearances without him besides ''Super Smash Bros.'', we would see more character traits. | |||
Also, I'm afraid I have to disagree with the notion that playability should automatically warrant a split. Funnily enough, you mentioned Yellow Toad and Blue Toad, ''which should get a merge''. [[User:Wikiboy10/Yellow_Toad_and_Blue_Toad|I even made an incomplete sandbox to show what that is]], which is a proposal I thought of for a while. The only other thing to mention would be me pointing out Waluigi Time's Full Flop. If people change their minds suddenly, they should clarify that so people don't get the wrong idea. Tails777 does just that, so I didn't question that user. Plus, there are no such things as stupid questions. I wouldn't have asked Waluigi Time if that proposal was five years old since that is the usual Statute of Limitations. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 17:50, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Then just describe what Red has experienced and done only. Expect the history section need rewrite, nothing else is lacking I think. {{User:Blhte/sig}} 23:30, February 17, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Even besides the fact Red has about the same [[Ashley & Red#Personality|personality]] as any WarioWare character, why does that matter at all? When has lack of personality (which is subjective) ever been a factor in splits and merges? Also, they do have separate screentime in Get It Together, both as a result of being separately playable and because Ashley is unlocked several levels earlier than Red in the story mode. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:39, February 18, 2023 (EST) | |||
:I suppose that JanMisali could provide us with a draft page on how a separate Red article could look like, see whether or not it would work.<br>Also, more than two years has passed since the last proposal, so I don't think Waluigi Time changing his mind is all too sudden. If it were two ''months'', I'd understand it a bit more. I guess the wording of your initial question was just a bit off, too. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:00, February 18, 2023 (EST) | |||
Truly it needs to be split. They aren't a duo with an identical personality. Ashley is aloof, Red is excitable. {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 23:32, February 22, 2023 (EST) | |||
Alright, so this proposal has a 92% chance of winning now so I decided to make a proof of concept of what an [[User:Wikiboy10/Ashley|Ashley page would look like.]] I'm new when it comes to sandboxes, but yeah. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 14:58, February 23, 2023 (EST) | |||
==Post-proposal discussion== | |||
Okay, looks like people are on board with splitting this! About time, I'd say. Now, one little question worth considering is what Red's page should actually be called. [[Red (WarioWare)]]? [[Red (WarioWare series)]]? [[Red (WarioWare character)]]? Possibly even [[Red (imp)]] or [[Red (game developer)]]? I think one of the first two would make the most sense given the naming policies, but it's still something worth thinking over. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 10:20, March 1, 2023 (EST) | |||
Apologies for the double-post but here's a [[User:JanMisali/Red|proof of concept]] for a standalone Red article. Obviously it's still missing a lot, but this should work as a starting point. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 11:43, March 1, 2023 (EST) | |||
I think [[Red (WarioWare)]] would be good enough. {{User:Arend/sig}} 01:32, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Red (''WarioWare'' character) is what I chose. Also, check out my [[User:Wikiboy10/Ashley|Ashley]] sandbox too. I will admit I have no idea how we'll be able to avoid talking about Red in these articles, which was subject to my opposition. And that concern really shows in my sandbox as I tried to take that article and only talk about Ashley. And yes, I am aware of the personality differences, but the history section still has to mention him. I'm also going to try making concepts for Young Cricket and Master Mantis, since it's obvious they will be split too. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 01:34, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
:I think Arend is right; [[Red (WarioWare)]] would be sufficient, and would follow the guidelines of [[SMW:NAME]]. Also, @Wikiboy10, looks pretty good I think! Although I don't think it's fully necessary to completely avoid talking about Red; he ''does'' play a major role in Ashley's stages. The [[9-Volt]] article talks about 18-Volt frequently in its history section, and to a lesser extent Joe is brought up a lot in the [[Mona]] article. [[User:JanMisali|JanMisali]] ([[User talk:JanMisali|talk]]) 12:15, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
::According to [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining the identifier]]: "If the subject of the article appears in multiple games in one series, use the series name plus the word "series" instead of a game name as the identifier if the topic(s) of the other article(s) are from different series." So I think "Red (''WarioWare'' series)" would be more correct than just "Red (''WarioWare'')". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:01, March 3, 2023 (EST) | |||
This article has the name Ashley & Red, yet thanks to tom zhao and blythe removing any mention of Red in the article, I think this article should now be moved its name to Ashley. But keep you fingers crossed for any red links {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 22:40, May 10, 2023 (EDT) | |||
Ashley Red gallery moved to ashley gallery. What about [[List of Ashley & Red quotes]]? Should we rename it to list of ashley quotes (removing Red dialogue), or just keep it the way it is? {{User:PnnyCrygr/sig}} 19:14, May 12, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:Split Red from Ashley's quotes just like everything else. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:04, May 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||