This and the "other" Ice MarioEdit
With the reappearance in MKT and the shared name and item, I'm starting to think that this isn't actually a different form, but a different interpretation of the same power (namely to adapt to the different playing angle). I know there are a lot of differences, but there have been plenty of times in this franchise where entities get totally repurposed and then revert much later. Look at the design history of Thwomp and Pokey, for example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- The thing is that the New Super Mario Bros. Wii back cover refers to both the "light blue" Ice Mario and Ice Flower as a new power-up, despite Ice (icy) Mario debuting in Super Mario Galaxy and is a new power-up in SMG. This situation reminds me of the Ice Piranha Plant and Frost Piranha page merging discussion. Those plants and the Ice Mario's have the same Japanese name but also have different functions as well, which is a similar situation with Ice Mario here. The thing is that Ice Mario in Mario Kart Tour shoots ice balls from the Ice Flower itself for gameplay purpose of Mario Kart and not like the actual power-up from SMG, Ice Mario didn't shoot ice balls when the Ice Flower turned Mario into Ice Mario in SMG, It's like saying regular Mario should move with Fire Mario just because he uses a Fire Flower in Mario Kart Tour. Also Blue and Yellow Toad, along with Toadette didn't use the Galaxy ice form while they used the NSMB variant, it would seem rather misleading, misplaced and unorganized for the Ice forms to be merged together. So the info box would be like "used on Mario (both), Luigi (both) Blue Toad (NSMB only), Yellow Toad (NSMB only), Toadette (NSMB only)" or whatever alternate bracket name that would fit with these Ice forms. Especially the Ice Flower is the same item that changes into these forms. SMG's Ice Mario has only been in one spin-off and one main game. The NSMB Ice form has been in a lot more with relevance. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 15:49, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- I think the "new Power-Ups" meant "within the context of a game like this (ie not in the previous NSMB)," to be honest. If the MKT one shoots ice balls, I see this as more reason to merge. In fact, it reminds me of King Boo's design history. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:16, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- So is the Penguin and Propeller Suit they are brand new and listed together with the Ice Flower for the back of the NSMBW cover and obviously they are not listing it from not appearing from a previous NSMB game. Ice Mario is a separate character in MKT, he was only able to shoot ice balls because of the Ice Flower itself and even Metal Mario can use the Fire Flower as well despite the form of Metal Mario in SM64 not shooting fireballs, even if it's the separate character Metal Mario. Penguin Luigi shoots ice balls in MKT but he needs the Ice Flower to use them, despite being able to use the ice balls without needing an ice flower in the NSMB games, which is the opposite to the Galaxy Ice Mario here. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 16:25, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- The Ice Flower is the only powerup in NSMBW to have appeared prior to that game but not in NSMB (or any 2D Super Mario game for that matter), making that a false equivalency. Again, the "ice ball" thing wouldn't work as well in a 3D game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:52, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- Except the NSMBWii form itself is new in function despite having the same name and completely distinct from Galaxies Ice Mario since ice balls didn't appear in the main Mario games as well as the 2D ones entirely. Do you know that for sure about the Ice balls not working in 3D, how do you know that they won't work just because they aren't in a 3D game yet? The fireballs didn't seem like they would work in 3D until they found a way to add it in SMG, but with a different behavior too, so that's all speculation there. The Super Leaf despite being given to Raccoon Mario only back then, while the Tanooki Suit item gives you the suit itself but functioning identically but with a statue ability, The Super Leaf now turns you into Tanooki Mario in the 3D games, but with a slower fall than Raccoon Mario, and no flying while another Super Leaf variant, the Statue Leaf grants you the Statue ability instead. These days Tanooki Mario has been a form of the Super Leaf in the 3D games, while Raccoon Mario is in the 2D games generally (NSMB2 and the Smash games). The NSMB Ice Mario is in 2D games, while the Galaxy one is only in one 3D game. So basically Raccoon and Tanooki Mario should merge logically by that then. Even Tanooki mario no longer flies, while Raccoon Mario now does. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 17:08, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- It's not that they won't function, it's that functionally, they'd work like the fireballs but with having to attack extra in order to destroy the enemy. That's not fun, that's a chore. There wasn't a lot of "picking up" random stuff in the SMG games, so that's irrelevant too. The Ice Flower itself existed in PiT, where it gave ice balls, so that's a power that had previously existed. Meanwhile, the "ice skating" thing is a mechanic that allows for not only quick-graceful movement, but time-based and agility-based puzzles. Something that is pretty fun on the given engine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:15, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- That seems like a flimsy argument, you're saying that the ice balls as they appear in NSMBWii wouldn't work well in SMG, but why would they have to? The Galaxy version of the form predates the NSMB version of Ice Mario's ice balls, so there's no reason for them to operate the same - yes, they were in Partners in Time, but they worked completely different in that game and acted more like regular fireballs. If they really wanted to have ice balls in SMG without needing a second attack, they could've had a fancy animation where the enemy gets frozen and then instantly shatters and dies. (But let's be honest, SMG wasn't a stranger to having power-ups that weren't fun) As we see it in Galaxy, Ice Mario was a completely unique form before NSMBWii introduced the "Fire Mario with ice" version that's been used since then. An oddball return in Tour doesn't change the fact that they're separate in my mind, and the fact that he does shoot ice balls in that game is a moot point since he can only do it by acquiring an item rather than as a natural ability, and this is the same series where Fire Flowers, Super Leaves, and Boomerang Flowers all have item forms that can be used by any character. Heck, as far as we know, the Tour developers decided to use the SMG form while paying homage to the NSMB version. Plus, as far as Tour goes, it's a lot easier to just make him shoot ice balls than try to come up with an item based on the SMG form's abilities that would work in the rules of Mario Kart. --
Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:36, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- The problem with your argument about SMG is that that would make it functionally identical to Fire Mario, and as such would be a completely pointless addition that just takes up software space. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- While I didn't specifically say it, my argument was that the ice balls would be in addition to Ice Mario's other abilities. If they were going to make Ice Mario functionally identical to Fire Mario, there'd obviously be no point including it in the game. I really don't think we should get too caught up in speculating about "but why doesn't he use ice balls in Galaxy?" though because there's no reason for him to since Galaxy came first. The only previous influence would be the Ice Flower in Partners in Time, but again, they don't gain any sort of Ice Mario form in that game, and the ice balls act like fireballs, except they inflict different debuffs (but don't freeze enemies). Anyway, I also think any talk of merging the Ice Marios over Tour alone is jumping the gun a bit. The Mario Kart series is always a bit iffy with power-up interpretations anyway, like Tanooki Mario turning into a statue in MK8 even though he hasn't had that ability since SMB3. If the Galaxy appearance keeps appearing in more games, then we should probably revisit this, but for all we know the developers chose frozen Mario over color swap Mario because they thought it looked cooler, no pun intended. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 17:58, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- Ultimately, I agree with that plan. I don't feel too strongly, I just felt it needed addressing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:59, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- While I didn't specifically say it, my argument was that the ice balls would be in addition to Ice Mario's other abilities. If they were going to make Ice Mario functionally identical to Fire Mario, there'd obviously be no point including it in the game. I really don't think we should get too caught up in speculating about "but why doesn't he use ice balls in Galaxy?" though because there's no reason for him to since Galaxy came first. The only previous influence would be the Ice Flower in Partners in Time, but again, they don't gain any sort of Ice Mario form in that game, and the ice balls act like fireballs, except they inflict different debuffs (but don't freeze enemies). Anyway, I also think any talk of merging the Ice Marios over Tour alone is jumping the gun a bit. The Mario Kart series is always a bit iffy with power-up interpretations anyway, like Tanooki Mario turning into a statue in MK8 even though he hasn't had that ability since SMB3. If the Galaxy appearance keeps appearing in more games, then we should probably revisit this, but for all we know the developers chose frozen Mario over color swap Mario because they thought it looked cooler, no pun intended. --
- The problem with your argument about SMG is that that would make it functionally identical to Fire Mario, and as such would be a completely pointless addition that just takes up software space. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- That seems like a flimsy argument, you're saying that the ice balls as they appear in NSMBWii wouldn't work well in SMG, but why would they have to? The Galaxy version of the form predates the NSMB version of Ice Mario's ice balls, so there's no reason for them to operate the same - yes, they were in Partners in Time, but they worked completely different in that game and acted more like regular fireballs. If they really wanted to have ice balls in SMG without needing a second attack, they could've had a fancy animation where the enemy gets frozen and then instantly shatters and dies. (But let's be honest, SMG wasn't a stranger to having power-ups that weren't fun) As we see it in Galaxy, Ice Mario was a completely unique form before NSMBWii introduced the "Fire Mario with ice" version that's been used since then. An oddball return in Tour doesn't change the fact that they're separate in my mind, and the fact that he does shoot ice balls in that game is a moot point since he can only do it by acquiring an item rather than as a natural ability, and this is the same series where Fire Flowers, Super Leaves, and Boomerang Flowers all have item forms that can be used by any character. Heck, as far as we know, the Tour developers decided to use the SMG form while paying homage to the NSMB version. Plus, as far as Tour goes, it's a lot easier to just make him shoot ice balls than try to come up with an item based on the SMG form's abilities that would work in the rules of Mario Kart. --
- It's not that they won't function, it's that functionally, they'd work like the fireballs but with having to attack extra in order to destroy the enemy. That's not fun, that's a chore. There wasn't a lot of "picking up" random stuff in the SMG games, so that's irrelevant too. The Ice Flower itself existed in PiT, where it gave ice balls, so that's a power that had previously existed. Meanwhile, the "ice skating" thing is a mechanic that allows for not only quick-graceful movement, but time-based and agility-based puzzles. Something that is pretty fun on the given engine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:15, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- Except the NSMBWii form itself is new in function despite having the same name and completely distinct from Galaxies Ice Mario since ice balls didn't appear in the main Mario games as well as the 2D ones entirely. Do you know that for sure about the Ice balls not working in 3D, how do you know that they won't work just because they aren't in a 3D game yet? The fireballs didn't seem like they would work in 3D until they found a way to add it in SMG, but with a different behavior too, so that's all speculation there. The Super Leaf despite being given to Raccoon Mario only back then, while the Tanooki Suit item gives you the suit itself but functioning identically but with a statue ability, The Super Leaf now turns you into Tanooki Mario in the 3D games, but with a slower fall than Raccoon Mario, and no flying while another Super Leaf variant, the Statue Leaf grants you the Statue ability instead. These days Tanooki Mario has been a form of the Super Leaf in the 3D games, while Raccoon Mario is in the 2D games generally (NSMB2 and the Smash games). The NSMB Ice Mario is in 2D games, while the Galaxy one is only in one 3D game. So basically Raccoon and Tanooki Mario should merge logically by that then. Even Tanooki mario no longer flies, while Raccoon Mario now does. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 17:08, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- The Ice Flower is the only powerup in NSMBW to have appeared prior to that game but not in NSMB (or any 2D Super Mario game for that matter), making that a false equivalency. Again, the "ice ball" thing wouldn't work as well in a 3D game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:52, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- So is the Penguin and Propeller Suit they are brand new and listed together with the Ice Flower for the back of the NSMBW cover and obviously they are not listing it from not appearing from a previous NSMB game. Ice Mario is a separate character in MKT, he was only able to shoot ice balls because of the Ice Flower itself and even Metal Mario can use the Fire Flower as well despite the form of Metal Mario in SM64 not shooting fireballs, even if it's the separate character Metal Mario. Penguin Luigi shoots ice balls in MKT but he needs the Ice Flower to use them, despite being able to use the ice balls without needing an ice flower in the NSMB games, which is the opposite to the Galaxy Ice Mario here. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 16:25, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- I think the "new Power-Ups" meant "within the context of a game like this (ie not in the previous NSMB)," to be honest. If the MKT one shoots ice balls, I see this as more reason to merge. In fact, it reminds me of King Boo's design history. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:16, January 16, 2020 (EST)
- @Gamermakerguy - The situation is dissimilar from Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha Plant because they still act much like their direct fiery counterpart in their respective series, unlike Ice Mario and Fire Mario from Super Mario Galaxy. The back of the New Super Mario Bros. Wii box is also careful not to list Ice Flower as a new item despite listing Ice Mario as new, though in fairness, the back of the Japanese Super Mario 3D Land box also identifies Tanooki Mario as new (though it might as well have been an entirely new power-up in that game). Agreed otherwise, at least with present information. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:43, January 16, 2020 (EST)
