Talk:Ant
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Name[edit]
So the Mario Portal got an English translation recently and it seems to call this critter "ant" in English, but there's a catch; the other three Antotto varieties still go by their romanized Japanese names, and "ant" in this instance is lowercase just like the "star", "bear" and "shark" that appear in this game are. So...should we move this page to "Ant (Super Mario Land 2)" or leave it as is? S o m e t h i n g o n e ! 
21:46, August 12, 2022 (EDT)
- Leave as is, there's plenty of cases where enemies are referred to by generic names such as in Super Mario 64 (Dorrie/Swimming Beast, Klepto/Big Bird) and we refer to them by their regular names. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 07:46, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- What sets this case apart from the examples you mentioned is that "ant" is the sole name presented for this enemy among a large number of other localised names from the same game, indicating that it is, in fact, the enemy's official English name. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 08:01, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm not happy about it, but it seems to be the official English name, however generic it may be, and should probably be moved back. Though I think there should be more comments on this first.
(T|C) 09:17, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- My two cents? As shaky as some of this material is, the Mario Portal at least seems like an overall better source than Dark Horse, and we're already starting to use some of the new names for other pages. Yes, a lot of the Land 2 names are still straightforward romanizations, but so are most of the ones from the original Land. Coming from the one who made the move to Antotto per my proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:19, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm not happy about it, but it seems to be the official English name, however generic it may be, and should probably be moved back. Though I think there should be more comments on this first.
- What sets this case apart from the examples you mentioned is that "ant" is the sole name presented for this enemy among a large number of other localised names from the same game, indicating that it is, in fact, the enemy's official English name. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 08:01, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- While I'm not questioning the source as they at least tried solving inconsistencies and making sense out of what was published in the English translation of the Encyclopedia, it should be noted how a few names are lowercase, those are usually just a description of the enemy (ant, bear, shark, bird). In this case, talking about "official name" is a bit misleading, as the lowercase clearly shows that these are not really names, just descriptors. Their presence means that the subject doesn't really have an American English name. As such, I wouldn't mind keeping a more specific name, if present in the original language.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:49, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- In fairness, the casing is a bit odd in places, as I mention here (e.g. "Jack-in-the-box" and "bear", also "Spike top" and "peepa"…), though clearly, they do seem to be referencing us. However, we are citing official sources for the majority of the Super Mario Land 2 lowercase names, not making it up. It's not quite the same as taking conjectural names despite there being a disclaimer. And there do seem to be a small handful of holdovers from Encyclopedia (e.g. Fireball Boy). That said, while not perfect, I have to say that this is still a big improvement as a whole. The lowercase here isn't too bothersome because in the context that it's used as the subject's label makes it obvious that it's supposed to be its name; that was the rationale for my other proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:38, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm actually questioning some aspects of this line of thought, in the sense that we're reading too much into it: Nintendo of America needed a consistent identifier for the enemy if anything for all the third party material that should use said identifier instead of made up names that would be confusing, but at the same time said identifier isn't always a specific name in the same way as, say, Dorrie is the actual name of the species to which the gentle sea dragon and Swimming Beast belongs. While it might still be appropriate for us to use this more generic identifier, as Nintendo of America decided that it should be linked to said enemy, in my opinion we should at the same time treat it for what it is: a nonspecific name used as placeholder for a translation of a specific name that never really happened. Is there a way to give these specific names more relvance while still naming the pages after the generic name that we're supposed to use as an American English wiki?--Mister Wu (talk) 21:35, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm not sure, but at the same time I'm not sure there's really a need for that? After all, the wiki takes capitalization as it comes from the English source, which is why we have many article titles in lowercase and/or using generic names. I see it as more of a confirmation that the previous article title was correct and that, like the original Land, most of these enemies are certainly not getting revisited anytime soon. Maybe the lowercase and romanized names can be held off by another proposal on the matter, and it'd be more prudent to determine for now what other names from the Super Mario Land 2 section are usable? I don't imagine Aqua Goomba, Ghost Goomba, Birdfish, Bee Fly, Bigbee, and Moofish would be too controversial; Fireball Boy seems to be a case like Piranha Pod, and stuff like Beebee already has an acceptable name so they wouldn't change the article unless we wanted to get rid of the identifier. How does that sound? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, August 14, 2022 (EDT)
- As far as these pages are concerned, the answer to your question is simple: no, we don't need the specific names here. These enemies would get a page even if they were completely unnamed, getting a conjectural name as page title.
- Wiki-wide though, the same can't really be said: I personally worked on pages of species and subjects who only got a page once we discovered that they had a more specific name in Japanese, we also have the case of the Ankoopas who were going to get merged with Big Koopa Troopas because they had lost their unique appearance and we weren't aware that they had a more specific name. So yes, having a more specific name in general is relevant for the wiki, which is why I'm trying to think if we can find a way to give it relevance when we need to use the generic English name.
- Still, when it comes to the enemies of Super Mario Land 2, we can first of all follow your suggestion, I think we can also use the generic English names and the romanized ones that were reconfirmed, unless some later source like the Virtual Console rerelease gave them more specific English names.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:18, August 14, 2022 (EDT)
- Personally, I think the additional names / names in other languages section is sufficient is making some relations and other distinctions clear (and I'm still not 100% on Ankoopas being Big Koopa Troopas in the remake, but that's a separate discussion that can happen if more evidence comes up), but maybe something can be devised later if it's a common reader problem. Here's my question (and I have a similar one here): would that entail creating a new proposal to overturn the old one, or Portal adequate enough to make the changes without it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:00, August 24, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm not sure, but at the same time I'm not sure there's really a need for that? After all, the wiki takes capitalization as it comes from the English source, which is why we have many article titles in lowercase and/or using generic names. I see it as more of a confirmation that the previous article title was correct and that, like the original Land, most of these enemies are certainly not getting revisited anytime soon. Maybe the lowercase and romanized names can be held off by another proposal on the matter, and it'd be more prudent to determine for now what other names from the Super Mario Land 2 section are usable? I don't imagine Aqua Goomba, Ghost Goomba, Birdfish, Bee Fly, Bigbee, and Moofish would be too controversial; Fireball Boy seems to be a case like Piranha Pod, and stuff like Beebee already has an acceptable name so they wouldn't change the article unless we wanted to get rid of the identifier. How does that sound? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, August 14, 2022 (EDT)
- I'm actually questioning some aspects of this line of thought, in the sense that we're reading too much into it: Nintendo of America needed a consistent identifier for the enemy if anything for all the third party material that should use said identifier instead of made up names that would be confusing, but at the same time said identifier isn't always a specific name in the same way as, say, Dorrie is the actual name of the species to which the gentle sea dragon and Swimming Beast belongs. While it might still be appropriate for us to use this more generic identifier, as Nintendo of America decided that it should be linked to said enemy, in my opinion we should at the same time treat it for what it is: a nonspecific name used as placeholder for a translation of a specific name that never really happened. Is there a way to give these specific names more relvance while still naming the pages after the generic name that we're supposed to use as an American English wiki?--Mister Wu (talk) 21:35, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
- In fairness, the casing is a bit odd in places, as I mention here (e.g. "Jack-in-the-box" and "bear", also "Spike top" and "peepa"…), though clearly, they do seem to be referencing us. However, we are citing official sources for the majority of the Super Mario Land 2 lowercase names, not making it up. It's not quite the same as taking conjectural names despite there being a disclaimer. And there do seem to be a small handful of holdovers from Encyclopedia (e.g. Fireball Boy). That said, while not perfect, I have to say that this is still a big improvement as a whole. The lowercase here isn't too bothersome because in the context that it's used as the subject's label makes it obvious that it's supposed to be its name; that was the rationale for my other proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:38, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
