MarioWiki:Featured articles/N1/Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story

Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside StoryEdit

This is an archive of a successful featured article nomination. If this page is unprotected, do not modify its contents, as it is an archive of past discussions.

Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story was nominated for featured article at 21:03, 31 October 2009 and passed at 02:48, 19 October 2010.

SupportEdit

MATEOELBACAN (talk) This article is very detailed,has much images,sections this must be a FA!
Baby Mario Bloops (talk)
Luigi456
Mario304
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User:Super Bowser Jr.
User:Yoshionfire
Redstar (talk)
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OpposeEdit

Removal of OpposesEdit

CommentsEdit

Needs a longer summary for a nice introduction Coincollector (talk)

If you think so, you should actually oppose. Time Q (talk)

The article is riddled with bad writing, grammar issues, and typos that cannot be corrected in a simple sweep. They are so ingrained in the writing that it must be looked over several times and re-written again and again before it's anywhere near readable. The Enemies sections is largely composed of nothing but tables, which should be split off into a Bestiary article akin to the Paper Mario article. This article is close to being filled-out, but it's only an essay seemingly written the night before due-date. It needs polishing. Redstar 00:11, 29 November 2009 (EST)

Redstar, before you go changing everything, you got to think about what I said on the Superstar saga comments. We just can go fit every detail to the last atom added or else it would be very unorganized, very long (bore users half-way through it), and it would be plain out chaos!!! And if you want to talk about the grammar, and how it has to be prefect, then right it yourself!!! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Per my response to you on the MarioWiki:Featured Articles/N/Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga page, high standards for a supposedly high-standard honor is not a bad thing. I am not asking for "every detail to the last atom" to be added. I am simply asking for all relevant information to be added and organized in the proper way. Boring users is not our concern. If they don't want to read the "boring" sections, they can either not read them or just not come to the page. Redstar 00:26, 29 November 2009 (EST)

It's well written, but it needs two images to fill the gap between the image of Fawful Express and the cake at the end of the game.--Gamefreak75 (talk)

I've added tags to all the sections that I feel needs work. It's far worse than I initially expected. As before, bad writing, grammar issues, and typos are riddled throughout the text of this article. I also ran into text that seemingly was added out of no where, which implies vandalism, but I really don't know. I recommend these areas be taken care of before I change my vote. Redstar 07:24, 29 November 2009 (EST)

Other Bestiary??!!-WTF?!--MATEOELBACAN (talk) 08:58, 29 November 2009 (EST)

It's the standard that technically must be done anyways. Just make a motion to split it, then work on it later while this article can be featured without it. Redstar 09:01, 29 November 2009 (EST)

It not a standard. There's no "All FAs have to have a bestiary" or anything like that for the FA requirements. Check the MarioWiki:Featured articles page and look under the FA Standards section. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Per FF65, why does it have to be the Mario & Luigi Series so suddenly. We have bestiary for Paper Mario, because that is because the game has a bestiary since you can tattle on enemies. There is not bestiary related stuff in the Mario & Luigi series! Also, why this series, why are you not changing or rewriting stuff on other articles that are in worse shape than this one. This one and there series of Mario & Luigi have great articles, with a flaw or a few, but that is beyond my point. We don't need to rewrite entire pages and sections just to change the page into what you want it to look like. The bestiary stuff, we don't need it for this series!!!!! Please, many users worked hours, days, even weeks on this just for it to reach a high level like this. Don't change it just because you have major issues with grammar or small information is missing from the already long story section!!!!!!!!!!! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Why not make this into a proposal? Other users can choose on if there should or shouldn't be a bestiary. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I think that should be good MATEOELBACAN (talk)

Proposal time then! Fawfulfury65 (talk)

It is a standard. I didn't imply it was a standard for Featured Articles, but for game articles in general. I am bringing it up now because you guys want to Feature this article, and I feel it's not good enough for that. It therefore gets seniority over the other articles, because no one is suggesting that those are good. Baby Mario Bloops: "many" users may have worked for weeks, as you say, but the article does not have a "high level". Anyone with a basic high school-level English reading skill can see that. And I'm an English major, so obviously I can see all the issues with writing. MATEOELBACAN doesn't even appear to have English as a first-language, and he's the one writing most of this. Seriously, the article needs work. Redstar 22:37, 29 November 2009 (EST)

Yes,my first language is Spanish, but what's wrong with it?!, I'm good with English!, and I only want to help! MATEOELBACAN (talk)

I understand you want to help, we all do, but an intimate understanding of the language is necessary for polished presentation of it on an English wiki. Fawful made some "corrections", but really she corrected things that were already correct and made them worse. I like the work you've both done already, but as far as writing is concerned you need to treat careful ground. (Though Fawful's recent editing of the Paper Mario page has been really nice) Redstar 21:46, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Well, if grammar issues isn't important, it isn't well written. F.A.'s are well-written articles unless you consider horrible grammar "well-written". Plus, horrible grammar makes our wiki look dumb. Just because "many users" worked on it for weeks (yes, we can give credit for their courtesy and commitment) doesn't mean it shall be high-quality..yet. We have to continue working on it before we can make this a featured article. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Alright, after a look over and a few edits, the only things I feel need to be changed before changing my vote is moving the artwork gallery to the correct location, and expanding the Battle System section a bit. While most of the battle mechanics aren't much different from the previous two games, we still shouldn't have to go to the Superstar Saga article to learn how the third game in the series plays. I recommend just copying-pasting all the information over for consistency, then making changes when need-be. Redstar 15:29, 4 December 2009 (EST)

I think that if the enemy table was removed and the Trivia and Differences sections were weeded through, this article would be perfect for a featured article. As is, I could go either way. Sournote103 6 December 2009

I think the same but also I think that don't remove the table,only re-add to it the images of before. MATEOELBACAN (talk)

Yeah, the table needs some pictures, some color. Look at the Superstar Saga article's tables! They look great with the pictures! Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Exactly x3 MATEOELBACAN (talk)

"Weeded" through the Differences and Trivia section, removing quite a bit of trivial information. Looks much cleaner. Redstar 20:43, 19 December 2009 (EST)

Other than the table, I think the only place in need of fixing is the screenshots subsection in the gallery. I mean, there's some Japanese screenshots, and some English screenshots. We need all the screenshots in one language: of course English. Also, the character sprites should be deleted from that subsection and possibly go in another subsection for "Game Sprites". Fawfulfury65 (talk)

There isn't much text and it is always explained what is seen in the image. Unless an equivalent screenshot in English is available, I don't think that really matters. Of course, the (original) Japanese (or whatever language) version is as official as the English one. --Grandy02 15:11, 28 December 2009 (EST)

Frostyfireyoshi, in every Mario & Luigi series game, you could never save after you defeat the final boss (PiT: Shrowser was the true final boss, technically). If it happens in the series, it goes to this page. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Per BMB MATEOELBACAN (talk)

Okay, BLOF, I got Jailgoon, Chuboomba, and Fawfulcopter back into the "bestiary" area. I will see if any other enemies are missing... Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

What color is Kretin X when it's normal? And should I add Straw X and Small Wisdurm X in there? But someone else must place the stats in there because I never played the game, nor looked at any guide. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Huh? Kretin already got added. But I still need to consider adding in Straw X and Wisdurm X and I need approval! And is having a screenshots section really necessary after the game came out? BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Well, BLOF, if you have Straw X and Wisdurm X (small), then you can add them, I have the stats (I think there right). And, since the other Mario & Luigi games don't have a screenshot gallery, just get rid of it. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Ok, I'll upload them, but after I'm done with that, can you (or anyone for that matter) please place the stats in? And I hope someone will at least rip just one teeny sprite of Wiggler? It could help, even in a good quality screen shot (as I can crop the sprite directly out of the image. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

That last guy's support vote is a fan vote. Can someone remove it? Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Well, you can put it under the now support/oppose section. When there are three votes, then we can delete it. It is better because the user may not understand that it needs to be valid, so give him/her time to change if they will. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

No, you can't. You cannot vote to remove support votes. It is indeed the case that a sysop can remove any vote if they deem it inadequate, but why do you want that anyway? It doesn't hurt anybody, it doesn't count at all, since there are already (way) more than 5 support votes. Time Q (talk)

Sorry, I guess I forgot that you can't remove supports, I was always confused on it, sorry. And, I know it doesn't hurt, and I know that I might seem crazy, but I don't really want fan votes to start appearing because we didn't do something, but that is my opinion. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

No problem. Actually, we're having a discussion on this very topic, check this if you want. Time Q (talk)

Will Someone please find a picture of WIggler! I cant find one anywhere!!!!!!!!!!Raphaelraven497 (talk)

Um, I think your missing the fact that we cannot find one, and it doesn't help with the obvious stated (not to be mean), that's pretty much what is wrong with the article, Wiggler pic and stats for Dark Mechawful.5... Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

According to the Dark Mechawful.5 article, it states that the only differences are increased defenses and a timer. I assume it has the same stats as Dark Mechawful, but it's only an assumption. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Wow, I can't believe, that's right (except POW is increased too...). I thought that HP was also increased, but I guess I was wrong...I'll go change it...

Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

SOMEONE MUST FIND A PICTURE OR A SPRITE OF WIGGLER!!!!!!! KS3 (talk)

:( , that's not helping out with the situation. Maybe you can look for the picture? Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I found one, It's over there KS3 (talk)

File:WigglerBiS.jpg

A picture of Wiggler in Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story

File:Wiggler from ML-BiS.jpg

Another Picture of Wiggler

We need an actual sprite. Reversinator (talk)

Yes, and my and LGM's vote is still valid, because there IS a construction template and the picture of Wiggler is not good enough. We need Wiggler in its battle stance, without a background. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Well then why can't you take the second picture and remove the background??? KS3 (talk)

I did take a good look at it, and it's not as clear as some pictures I cropped from before. It should also be PNG format, or something that can easily distinguish shading and colors from each other. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

I hate to bring this to our attention while we still are searching for a perfect wiggler pic, but we need to address this. Even if we find it, it still won't be complete. We have the giant bosses section that doesn't have a single picture in it. Should we just leave it be and ignore it, or should we fill pics in that section too so that it can be 100% complete? Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Also, for the votes to get rid of opposion votes, for the ones that have 3-4 votes, may we cross them out since they been there for who knows how long. That is all... Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

BMB: The giant bosses are left like that because of reasons. I asked before about how will shall get those pictures and a solution was to leave it like this, because we're probably not going to find the sprite without having to resort to a screenshot. Plus, we need an administrator's approval to remove a vote (even though they barely do that anyway). BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Can we get rid of the deletion tag in the enemy section since Wiggler has now been finally found? Or do we need to get pics for the Giant Bosses? Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

First, it's the construction template. Second, I believe that's not the battle sprite; it has to be a battle sprite to be consistent. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Here's a simple way to get Wiggler pics. You go onto youtube, type in Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story wiggler battle and you would get like a ton of videos. All that you do is to get to the point where Wiggler is in a battle position and then print the screen. Then you paste it on paint and then get the wiggler out of the screen, and put it on another paint page. Then you upload it on the MarioWiki and ta da. KS3 (talk)

KS3: The construction template is still there or else I'm seeing things. LeftyGreenMario (talk)

LGM: I know that. KS3 (talk)

I will try to upload images of the Giant Bosses.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by KS3 (talk).

Here are the 3 Images of all the Giant Bosses. There are on the right.KS3 (talk)

File:FawfulExpressBiS.jpg

Fawful Express

File:TowerOfYikkBiS.jpg

Tower Of Yikk

File:BowsersCastleBiS.jpg

Bowser's Castle

Lol, I'm sorry, but you forgot Super Peach's Castle boss. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I couldn't find one. KS3 (talk)

It smells that no one can rip sprites. That would have been very useful. These images don't qualify enough to be just right. Sorry for being so picky, but sprites got to be consistent. I should clearly see the shading differences in sprites. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Smells? KS3 (talk)

Well, since we got 3 of the 4 giant bosses, someone needs to find the Super Peach Castle boss thingamabob. I can't find one. KS3 (talk)

btw, we should also rip the sprites. KS3 (talk)

Guys, this isn't working. We should either forget about the giant bosses or just get rid of the sprites altogether. It would at least make the article complete. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I don't think either of them won't work. If we forget about the giant bosses the table would be incomplete, and getting rid of the sprites altogether is going too far... KS3 (talk)

Yeah, but you guys haven't even found one giant boss image to use in months. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

We can't get rid of the sprites because the prequels all have it and are featured (I think both are). Also, we users in general are too picky for what is to be Featured. We can't have a completely template with bad images, and we can't have a incompleted template with good images. Those images are sort of good, but BLOF has a point of it having to be png rather than jpg because it is better quality. I have sprites of the enemies, but if you saw the jpg images of wiggler I uploaded, I don't think you want my help again. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

OMG! Just one image! One single little image is what is left for this article. Everything else is in great shape. I can't tell you how close we are to reaching this FA goal. Yay!!!!!!!! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

So close, yet so far. :( We don't accept JPEGGY sprites. Just look in the large bosses section. And are you sure that's Wiggler's battle sprite?BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Lets not be too picky with the images. They have reasonable quality, and they don't need to be perfect for the article to become featured if there are no better images available. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Actually Bloc Partier or another sysop said just because there is no better images doesn't mean it is left alone. You can upload one Booderdash (talk)

I mean, they're not that bad, and there's really no way to find a better one to upload. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Yeah, I guess you're right. But I do agree with the Wiggler. The overworld sprite looks incredibly out of place here. Bowser has its inbattle sprite. Booderdash (talk)

That construction template should still be there. Most of the added sprites are bad quality. You can't say there are no better images. I lambasted Mario Party 8 and 6 for having bad quality item pictures. LeftyGreenMario (talk)

Well, if you think the giant bosses sprites are really bad quality, maybe I can continue playing the game on computer and rip thoses giant bosses sprites in high quality, like I did with bowser's castle? Then after we would have all the sprites in HQ... Jimbo390 (talk)

Please! That Bowser's Castle one is on par with the other sprites. LeftyGreenMario (talk)

Ok, i'll rip them and also i'll try to get a wiggler battle sprite if no one find one. Jimbo390 (talk)

Has very few references. Looking at the requirements for being a featured article on this Wiki: "…be sourced with all available sources and Mario-related appearances." Clearly, the limited use of references tells us that this article cannot be featured quality by the standards put in place and should be failed if this is not fixed. Also, the amount of removal of opposing arguments is insane, and it should absolutely not be done by someone with a dissenting opinion. That is a huge conflict of interest, and the fact that you believe that the problems mentioned in their opposition were fixed does not mean that they agree. It's almost tantamount to vote tampering. - NARCE 03:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Wait wait wait wait WAIT! I have been waiting for this article to be complete, and now it is!!! We have all the images, and the only images that can be better uploaded would be the Dark Star Core and maybe Yikk and Fawful Express. Yet, that construction template still HAVOCS the article. This article has been through probably more than any other FA NOM of the entire Wiki!!!!!!!! So one or two images are not bad yet aren't perfect. I find this article excellent, and more than worthy of an FA than any other article. Everything is in order, we have gone through all the spelling and grammar errors, we have the sprites now, we have great length and excellent details, we have EVERYTHING needed to be a FA and above. Now tell me differently that this still needs to pospone (and don't tell me about the sprite thing, because that is the best we can obtain!!!!!!). Also NARCE, I agree with the dissenting opinion part, but don't go be like "expand the sources or have this FA Nom fail." So we don't have a lot of sources, yet they are very good and reliable sources. That is all I have to say (for now). Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

It may be a well-written article, but it's still a requirement for any featured article to have references. I'm certain that the few references as well as the game contents themselves do not reference the entire article. - NARCE 05:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

@KS3: You know for your "Removal" section? I suggest you re-read my vote. Marioguy1 (talk)

This article does have a reference section. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I did not ask that there be a single reference, or a few references, I pointed out that the entirety of the content that was not covered by the game needed to be referenced. The trivia section, for example, forces readers to do their own research. - NARCE 14:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I uploaded a better version of yikk tower. That's the best I can do as the sprite in the game looks like that. Jimbo390 (talk)

Thanks for that Jimbo390. @ NARCE - As I said before, the reference is good enough. Also, the trivia section does not force readers to do research, nothing forces are reader to do research. If it causes you to do research, then fine, but I don't think any other user has that situation. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Well, let's see... so your argument for ignoring something - something that, if not fulfilled, featured status is impossible - is that one complainant is not enough to warrant fulfilling featured article quality standards.

"This is the first game to have a Boss-Refight or Skill Challenge of the series. " - It is? Is this an observance by the writer of this sentence? Or a fan of the games pointing out that he has never seen it in a previous Mario RPG before? How can I be sure this is true? If I am not sure, then I have to research to find out. How else can I verify the truth of it? By playing the game, I can verify the existence of such a feature, not the lack of it in previous titles.
"This is the first time in the Mario RPG series that a sequel has been released on the same system as its predecessor. " - Information that is easy to find, but it still does not change the fact that the reader must personally go to Google and search for this information.
"The title of the game is a pun on the term "inside story," meaning the "true" tale of an event from the perspective of an insider who participated in the action, as opposed to an outsider who only hears about the event later on. In this case, the game is a literal inside story, as Mario and Luigi have to adventure through the insides of Bowser. " - While obviously true, it is still an observation made by the writer, not sources or the game. Same with "The game's European Spanish, European French and Italian name is a pun on the famous novel A Journey to the Center of the Earth."
"This the third time Bowser is a playable character (where Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door and Super Paper Mario came before this game), but the 2nd time he does good deeds and bad ones (where Super Paper Mario came first). " - This is a collection of observations. It's the third game? In order to verify this, as the reader, I must either research online, or play every Mario game to verify that Bowser is not playable in more than three. I must also research whether these games feature Bowser acting in a unique capacity to his normal roles.

Explain to me how, from reading the article, I can know that any of these statements are true?

Seriously, people seem to put a little starman over the actual quality of the article. - NARCE 15:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I feel very frustrated now. Can we just feature this already? If you really want to know if they are true, research it and put it in the article yourself. I have no idea where I can get an online source for that. The sources are right in the game. I'm sorry, but I can't help this article much farther. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

So is this your response to every single user who would perhaps question the information? "Find it yourselves"? If you cannot fulfill a necessary criteria, then featuring this article is an absolute 100% no-go. Stop treating the FA status as if to say an article is only an accomplishment if it has a star on it. - NARCE 16:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't find it myself. If someone can find a source to put there, that would be great, but I can't. I'm not very good at searching through the internet for sources. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Well, that is too bad, because it's still important to the article, whether you can accomplish it or not. It can't be featured until. - NARCE 16:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm asking for help in finding these sources. Besides, it is a FA standard to have all available sources in the article. I've looked through all kinds of websites about the game, and I have not found any sources available for that stuff. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Unfortunately, I can be of no help. Look at IGN, GameSpot, GameDaily, GamesRadar, etc. for information relevant to BiS. - NARCE 17:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

@NARCE: You know what?!? If you feel like it sucks, then just say it. If you are able to find errors in what you feel is wrong, then you should have no problem finding the information that is true!!!!!!! This article is better than pretty much all others. Can't you see that?!?!?!?! Don't just come here and start putting down the work of this, just because of not enough references. This article does not suck just because it doesn't have enough of this, or that a sprite is not the best. Also, dont' go saying that FA's are pretty much saying that a article is good if it has a star or it can't be good till has a star or it's only an article with a star at the top right. This article deserves it!!!!!!! It has been through a lot, it has the requirements (no matter what you say), and it shows that even with or without the star, that it still is one of the BEST Articles we have on the Mario Wiki. YOU haven't been through this at the beginning; you have been here since like April and from then on, it barely has been edited. Okay, I know it seems that I'm mad, but I'm not. I am just tired of having people put down this article when everything is fine with it. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

And again, the FA standards state that the article must have all available sources. And there is just no available source to put in that trivia section anywhere. Therefore, this article is fine once we put all the images we need in it. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Wait, don't we have the images we need? Because all the images in the page are the sprites in the game, and they are really good. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Apparently, some people won't support because two of the giant boss images are low quality. Of course, that doesn't mean we should have that construction template, so I'll remove that. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

I'm amazed that two people are voting to remove my vote yet they have clearly not read it. If you have read it, read the last part of it again. Marioguy1 (talk)

I have read it. The images are the best that they can be. Those images are sprites, and DS sprites are not always that excellent. What we have is from the game. So, your reason is invalid. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Can anyone verify if the alternate ending where beating the game under level 17 is true? Since I would like to add that in the trivia section, if it is. I'm positive however the over level 42 ending is true though. Booderdash (talk)

@BMB: I know my vote is invalid, I would have removed it long ago if I wasn't trying to prove a point here. Now, re-read the very last sentence of my vote. Read it twice. If you think it has anything to do with my reasons to unfeature, read it again. Read it until you find the reason that I am not removing my vote myself. Marioguy1 (talk)

@Citation Issue: You don't have to cite EVERY thing. All you have to cite for is things that don't appear in the game. So technically, if it appears in the game, you don't need a citation. Read the MarioWiki: Citation Policy, okay? Before you make claims about you need a source for EVERY thing. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

@Booderdash: Yes, the lv. 17 ending is not true. The lv. 40 and above is true as you said. BTW, soon this article will be FEATURED!!!!!!!! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

BMB: A sprite looking weird because it's from a DS game. That's weird. What about all the other sprites? We should wait until our friend (Jimbo390 :D) who uploaded the large bosses rip the remaining ones. Be patient. The status of FA isn't too far away. :D BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Yeah, someone said that half a year ago too...anyways, I worded it wrong. It is very pixelated because it is a giant boss, and all the giant bosses had bigger pixels, so it affected them. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Aw, don't be negative! Literally, the status is not too far away. We just need 2 better sprites (not JPG!!). The JPG extension causes the sprite to lose color data. That's what I'm concerned about. The JPG extension, not the sprite. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

I'm not trying to be negative, just saying that the statement was told to me a long time before. I would do the job of the JPG to png, but I only have jpg. :( BTW, this has to be the longest FA Nom comment section of them all! :) Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Fawful express have now a better quality sprite in PNG format. 1 more to do. BTW dark mechawful head have the wrong sprite. Jimbo390 (talk)

We couldn't find a sprite of his head, so we just took the sprite with his whole body. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

HEY!!!! Sorry I did JPEGs, that was the best I could do for Giant Boss Sprites. Sure, Jimbo390's sprites are better quality (thanks, dude), but why no credit and hating on my JPEG Sprites? Frostyfireyoshi (talk)

I'm not hating. I'm glad you at least went through the effort to at least get some sprites so we know what they look like. :) BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

That's alright. They were JPEGs, but they fully intact when uploaded. I have a JPEG Bowser Castle sprite near completion that he could improve the quality of. Sorry for any rage. I am a rage-oholic sometimes. Frostyfireyoshi (talk)

Go FrostyfireYoshi!!!!! :) Anyways, do you need a patroller/sysop to delete an oppose vote, or just 3 votes with at least 24 hours for them to change it? Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

You need at least two votes and one sysop vote. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

It's amazing how the voting system works. Basically, no matter what is wrong with the article, if the popular opinion dislikes it, you have no say. You know what? If you REALLY want me to go outside references - which are NOT adequate based on what I've read - I will. In fact, I'll be a real nice guy and do the improvements myself as an act of good faith. - NARCE 02:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No, its because your oppose is invalid. Booderdash (talk)

It is? Hm.

"This is the first game to have a Boss-Refight or Skill Challenge of the series." - Cannot be ascertained by playing the game.
"This is the first time in the Mario RPG series that a sequel has been released on the same system as its predecessor. " - Cannot be ascertained by playing the game.
"This is the second game where the Mario Bros. battle inside Bowser's body, the first being Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, where they battle Cackletta's Soul inside Bowser. It is interesting to note that Fawful (who worked for Cackletta) is fought in a similar way to Cackletta. It is also interesting to note that before both battles take place, the player fights an affected form of Bowser. While Mario and Luigi are sucked into Bowser and Cackletta was inside him, for Fawful it is the reverse; Bowser inhales Dark Fawful and he fights the Mario Bros. inside him. " - Cannot be ascertained by playing the game.

Seriously. These things are NOT sourceable with "play the game", as it requires players to "play the series". That is a completely unacceptable way to source things like that. It requires the reader be well-taught in the series to know that this is, in fact, true. The fact of the matter is that, looking at all of the opposition that has been ousted, this is less a proper vote and more a cabal of editors seeking to ensure that their article gets that magic star that validates their work.

Also, I found a typo in the second paragraph in the article. If you wanted me to go through, without editing, and find some "proper validation" to oppose the article becoming featured, I would gladly do so. - NARCE 03:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you didn't "improve the story." What you "imrpoved" came directly from the instruction booklet. In the story section, I meant. Not the opening. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

I do believe that there exists a copyright law that prevents the "copy/paste" of content from manuals into articles. - NARCE 03:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

But everything here is copyrighted. The games, the characters. But we don't claim it as our own. At least it said, "From the instruction booklet". BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

That is different. We are discussing and educating people about these copyrighted characters/games/areas/etc. In using content from the manual word-for-word, we are using someone else's work. You may cite the manual for the plot section's information, but not use it. - NARCE 03:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Boss refight can be found by playing all 3 Mario and Luigi game which more than one of us had. first time in Mario Rpg series go here:Games. HAS there been any? Thats very easy to just look up. Since theres only been 7 games. third one, play Superstar Saga. And this is the MARIOWIKI of course people have played the series. Some people have played nearly all the Mario games to date. Also note, that I'm opposing it too, but not for the references Booderdash (talk)

Some people, not all. Some people come here to learn about Mario.

On a related note, it would be much appreciated if someone could, in the references section, list each game that is used for a reference. - NARCE 03:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

@NARCE: So tell me? Hum? Do you really think that an FA is all about that? A title? Articles that users break their backs over (metaphorically) just do it just for a title? Do you think that I spend 100 edits on this one article just for someone to say that it all we want is for some little star to be placed over it?!? I'll tell you that your WRONG NARCE! The sources/trivia that have to do with the series goes here and sources are plentiful here, whether if there is only like 7 of them. And the small errors, yes, they are found on all pages, no matter how much we work on it. And those trivia sections! Yes, yes they cannot be found in the game, but will we not add it to the trivia section of the game? No, since this is an article and it mentions a lot of the prequels and if you come to this page, it mentions the prequels ahead of time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really need to lay back and stop trying to find something wrong when it isn't and make it seem like it ruins the entire article. This article is FA material, and many of us can easily tell you that an a heartbeat!!!! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I'm not going to speak to you until you can discuss this without becoming visibly upset. - NARCE 03:29, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Woah there calm down there BmB. Take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, then come back. Yes it does seem to be Fa material. But I would like to see the Stingler red link gone. Booderdash (talk)

I am not upset, I am a little bit, but not at the users and everything. I may seem like it by the way I am writing, but I am just trying to get your attention since you don't seem to read it without that. Don't think I'm easily upset, I am just trying to get your attention. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

No need to be upset. Not even a little. Every single article on this wiki isn't perfect. If it means having 10 million edits on a single article, so be it :). Besides, trivia information are meant to be interesting and, well, uh, trivial. I don't see what's the huge fuss about it. This article is FA quality. The "errors" mentioned are too minor (and irrelevant) to be considered. We're glad you spent your time and effort in an attempt to make the article very well. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Narce thats not a very good strategy. Since you can not speak all you want but eventually your oppose will be removed like it they always do after a while. Its best to say WHY you oppose. Booderdash (talk)

Thank you for agreeing with me. And don't worry, I said most of what I wanted to say, so don't think I will "explode" as you probably think I did. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I would be glad to assist in the improvement of the article. The problem lies in me asking "if I do it myself, will it aide in the people working on this article in improving themselves?" I don't want to come off as arrogant, but I would really like to see more people improving upon their writing ability. In response to BMB, I will respons to the FA concerns. I do really think that, here, it's all about having a praise-worthy title applied to your article. I appreciate that you worked hard on it. But now, you've got to work even harder. Let me put some contrast into things here:

All works of mine, that I poured my heart and soul into. I wouldn't dare request them for even "Good article" status, because they have a number of flaws that need to be ironed out yet. The statement that there are flaws on all articles just doesn't fly with me. A featured article should be a cut above the rest, so when you say that it is FA material, that you also compared it to "all articles" doesn't instill confidence in me.

Also, feel free to use the reception content from the four Wikipedia articles I linked to, as nearly all of it is my writing.

In response to BmB's second statement, it doesn't matter why you're upset, you are being it. If you act like that, it just makes me not want to respond. The first time you said something, I responded, but I must have closed the window before saving my edit. But in response to your last sentence - the content should be as close to perfect as it can be, and I feel that it could be much better than what it is.- NARCE 03:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Amazing. They actually have SEPERATE articles for those??!! Where is their notability claim? Theres like 9000 tv shows that aren't mentioned in wikipedia but they need seperae aticles for people like FAWFUL' and BIRDO Booderdash (talk)

Unfortunately, this is none of our business >_>. Separativevitifullness. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Well, that's all me :) I spent probably more than a collective week searching Google Books, Google News, reviews, Google, and articles related to the Mario series. Also, BLOF, what do you mean it's none of our business? What isn't? - NARCE 03:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thats cool, but whatI meant was those articles should't be even on thatsite. Whats notable about those characters that make them stand out? Booderdash (talk)

Content, man. If you check the reception and development, there's a significant amount of content that shows "real world notability". Such as the history of Goomba's creation, or the history of Birdo becoming male. As for reception, I found several notable mentions of the character. Basically, the articles rely more on outside sources discussing the characters rather than the information taken from the game.

And to the continued opposition to my opposition: you did? Do you really want to argue that every single flaw in spelling, grammar, and pacing is fixed? You really want to argue that I did not remove a typo from the second paragraph 30 minutes ago? Seriously, this is some absurd vindictiveness. You simply cannot oppose based on grammar, it would seem, as supporters would seem to disagree based on their opinion of the quality of their work. - NARCE 03:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

@NARCE: No, I was talking to Booderdash. About how the articles shouldn't be on Wikipedia because they are too minor.

BMB: Are you sure "Unbeknownst" and "reboost" are even words? According to my spellcheck, they are not words. And I caught "afterwards". It's not a word. Everyone should at least know that. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Oh, okay. And also, thank you for finding even more evidence to the claim that the spelling and grammar problems are all fixed. - NARCE 03:58, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Besides, if grammar and spelling counts, then don't read David Copperfield, because it has a bunch of grammar and spelling errors. KS3 (talk)

If he were to submit his book to be featured for its overall quality, he would be scrutinized for it. If David Copperfield were writing articles, and he was told to fix the grammar and spelling, he would have to fix the grammar and spelling. Books are about entertaining, not being correct. Wiki articles are about information. And it's also a little perverse that you would imply that grammar and spelling don't count. It makes my inner linguist retch in disgust. - NARCE 04:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

@Narce: David Copperfield is written by the famous Charles Dickens, or don't you read classics? KS3 (talk) You kno, the next thing we are going to argue over is on Pakastan

I read recent classics. Catcher in the Rye, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Or older ones. Not really, though, those from that era.

But that doesn't compound the point that grammar and spelling are more important in writing encyclopaedic articles than they are when writing books. - NARCE 04:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No Afterwards is a word. Edefenir reverted your edit. Booderdash (talk)

SYSOPS aren't always right, you know. LeftyGreenMario (talk)

Why are we arguing over THIS NOW? >_> The Firefox spellcheck says otherwise. But I looked it up in a dictionary and it wasn't there (though "afterward" is there and it said, "also as afterwards") BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

BLOF, are you suggesting that I wrote "afterwards"? - NARCE 04:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

I see. I couldn't tell because in your support of removing my opposition, you were unclear with who you were speaking to. - NARCE 04:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

[5] Apparently both are accepted, but afterward is the "better" one. I stand corrected. Booderdash (talk)

Hm, let's use the better one! BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

In wikipedia, if this were to take place, 3 experienced Mariowikians and one newbie would get blocked. (I forgot why, but there was a reason) Paul Revere

And? I should get sent at least a warning before I get blocked. And what does this have to do with the article itself anyway? >_> BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

@BLOF: Okay, the reboost (probably meant reboot) I could understand me writing, but unbeknownst? Unless I used a Thesaurus for something, then I know that I never wrote that word unless it was already there. I believe those words are correctly spelled too, so I don't understand what is the matter. BTW, this is horrible when everyone is sending in comments at the same time! Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

You can't just argue of the quality of the article based on what you know. You have to know the article to a "T" before you can honestly argue that it was perfect, and I'm a little disappointed that you would argue its "perfection" without full knowledge of what could be wrong with it. There really needs to be a task force for the improvement of FAs. It ain't even about references right now, either. - NARCE 04:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

No, Ks3, they'd get a warning. Actually they wouldn't even give you a warning. More like a reminder. Booderdash (talk)

It's edit warring. In Wikipedia, you've probably blocked or banned. KS3 (talk)

You've obviously haven't been on wikipedia much. Edit warring is when people UNDO each other edits on a MAIN page. Not on talk pages. They would only ban if swears or threats took place. We're having a constructive (kind of) argument. Theres nothing wrong with that. I'm pretty sure Mariowiki also has rules over edit warring. Booderdash (talk)

Return to the original topic now. All of you. - Edofenrir (talk)

No need to be so aggressive, Edofenrir. It would do you some good if you took a softer approach in your words.

I would recommend that much of this discussion be archived to the discussion page. - NARCE 04:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Guys, will you please stop? We're supposed to be discussing on how we can improve the article. This is obviously not helping. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

@Narce: We might be blocked if we continue this.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by KS3 (talk).

Yes, please let us just focus on why I am not memorizing this article by heart and not pointing out all the small errors. It's because I read them, I see the small errors, yet, I re-read it again, and check for other errors. Then, I usually lose my place, and it is just hard when an article this well-written that errors hide deeply in them. I'm not the best proof-reader, so that is also why I have trouble. :( Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I wasn't aggressive, I was simply strict, because this discussion serves no purpose at all for this nomination. Had I been aggressive, I would have used exclamation marks, to indicate that I am yelling. Now, please, return to the original topic. - Edofenrir (talk)

~~"Everyone left from the strict Eforinefir in order to escape from the punishment awaiting them..."~~ Um, I think that everyone left this page before you wrote your comment KS3 (talk)

No its because most of us have to go to sleep. This ~~argume..~~conversation will probably be up and running again tomorrow Booderdash (talk)

BmB, the problem is not in your proofreading, but in the lack of a system devoted to pointing out flaws so this kind of thing doesn't happen. I would be up to the challenge of peer reviewing articles if such a system were to exist. - NARCE 05:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Go here. KS3 (talk)

That's just sad that we have a system that is on hiatus because it's too complicated. - NARCE 05:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't just too complicated, though, nobody was interested in doing it, so it's on hiatus. You can try it if you want. Also, I will look through the article and find some grammar errors.Fawfulfury65 (talk)

@NARCE: Maybe you can ask a sysop to revamp the PAIR system. KS3 (talk)

This is idiotic. You really want me to prove how many grammatical and spelling errors there are in this article? Do you really want to lie to my face for the sole purpose of quieting any opposition to this article?

"Unbeknownst to Bowser" - Obsolete word. Should be "unbeknown". The word "unbeknown" is actually used later in the same section, showing the vast inconsistencies in the writing.
"He continues out of the caves" - Implies that all the time Bowser was in these caves, he has been attempting to leave them. Should be "makes his way out of the caves."
"After making his way out of the caves he meets Fawful, who proclaims he is planning to claim Bowser's Castle as his own and to conquer the whole Mushroom Kingdom. - Should be "who proclaims that he is planning to claim Bowser's Castle as his own".
"Fawful then flees, and before Bowser can give chase, he is halted by Midbus, a minion of Fawful." - Should be "but before Bowser can give chase". Also, the first mention of the "minion" earlier in the section should explain what Midbus is, not his second appearance, nor should it link to him twice.
"Bowser pulls on the rope connected to the island, but is having difficulty." - Should be "but does not have the strength to pull the island over."
"They explore the area, find Toadbert, and then watch Bowser learn the Sliding Punch. " - How can they watch him learn the Sliding Punch? They may have seen changes occurring inside Bowser's body, but the statement implies that they see him learning this specific attack.
"He even engages it to battle" - Take out the "even".
"Each brother and Bowser have their own HP, SP, POW, DEF, and SPEED, as well as STACHE points for the brothers, and HORN points for Bowser." - Unnecessary run-on sentence. Should be "All character have HP, SP, POW, DEF, and SPEED points. The Mario Bros. have a unique stat in STACHE points, while Bowser has HORN points."
"When they finish a battle, they each gain EXP Points and Coins. With enough Experience Points, they can level-up and increase each respective statistic. " - Experience Points should be referred to as EXP Points, for consistency's sake.
In the HP/SP/POW/DEF/SPEED descriptions, the descriptions should be in the sentence, not in parenthesis. ie: "HP, or Heart Points,".
"Each attack uses a certain amount of SP, draining the total. SP can only be restored by using Syrup. " - No explanation for what Syrup is in this game. Looking further, there is no real explanation for how items work in this game.
"POW (abbreviation of Power) is how strong the fighter is. The higher their POW stats are, the more damage they will perform. " - Should be "the more damage they will inflict."
"exactly like STACHE Points" - Should be "exactly the same as".
"The battle system with Mario and Luigi is similar to the battles from previous titles." - No italicization; should mention what the previous titles are in the first sentence rather than the second.

I'd go on further, but I would not want to fill the page up too much. Point being, no matter how good you think the article is, it does not erase my opinion that it is not good enough grammatically. The removal of my vote would be tantamount to vote tampering. At this point, saying that the article is perfect is a bald-faced lie. You may disagree with me when I say it is a problem, but NOT tell me that what I say is not true and, as such, my vote is invalid. - NARCE 22:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

And you didn't fix them? Fawfulfury65 (talk)

No, because the last time I fixed something, people ignored them. Fact of the matter is that if I was able to find this many flaws in the article without reading even half of it, then there are likely many more flaws. In a peer review, the reviewer provides criticism for the improvement of the article. This is what I'm doing here. If I do it, then no one will learn to do it themselves. - NARCE 23:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

You didn't give any review. You gave a list of things that neede to be improved. We did not ignore your edits before, you just improved something from the manual, so we had to undo that. You are very good at finding errors, so you should really go edit the article and improve them. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

There's little motivation in knowing that the response to finding flaws is "fix them yourself, it's fine". Point being, regardless of whether I work to fix them, my opposition to the featuring of the article at this moment stands, and it's quite inappropriate that people are voting to have it removed when the basis for my opposition is true. - NARCE 23:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Since there seems to be an active attempt at improving the article, I will withdraw my opposition on the condition that the copyediting doesn't stop now that the opposition is gone, kay? - NARCE 23:25, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Listen NARCE, this is not Wikipedia, okay? We don't have like 100,000 people that can edit the article any time. We have like maybe 300 at most that are active and help this wiki. There are also about 10,800 articles on this page, and users are constantly working on them along with every other article. We can't do everyone at once with every article! Sorry that you focus a lot on this article, we all can't do that who has been here for the last year or so. Any errors in it does not mean that we are horrible users, it means we haven't found the time to fix it! You know NARCE, you could leave peace here on this Mario Wiki, and stop disturbing the peace with your rude words. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

I fixed some errors... Thank you for removing your vote. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Either this is really almost about to be featured, or I dreaming. Unless someone replies, I'm going with the latter. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

You're not dreaming. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

ONE MORE SPRITE!!!!! WHOOHOOO!!! BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Two more, you mean. KS3 (talk) (the middle two)

No, one more. Fawful Express is a PNG, but Super Peach Castle is a JPG thingy. Fawfulfury65 (talk)

Wow, we really are so close to nominating this. Looks like no one has anything to say about the article (or is blocked to say their opinion), so other than that one image I guess it is ready. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sadly though, I have to tell everyone that even when we get that one image a png, we still aren't ready. The Dark Mechawful Head still needs the right sprite, and as much as I really want this to be featured, we need to take care of that before it becomes a FA. I hate to say it, but looks like we have to delay longer. :'( Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Not anymore. BabyLuigiOnFire (talk)

Wait, but who moved this??? KS3 (talk)

Some person made it N1... LeftyGreenMario (talk)

The enemies section... Can we somehow show which Mushroom Kingdom ones can be fought by Mario/Luigi only? (like Borp...)Dry dry king (talk)

Thank you BMB. The Besitary is now even better! Dry dry king (talk)

I know that there is still one sprite left to change before the Nom can be FA material, but I just want to take one moment to see how far we have come. [6] shows the page being featured as of October 31, 2009. Now compare it to today, and dare tell me that we haven't improved greatly from then. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

This shows you exactly how much improved we are now! CosmicBlueToad (talk)

KRAHAHAHA!!!! I take it that Super Peach Castle is the nasty non-PNG sprite, yes? Sorry. Still, this article has come a long way! But...I have a project related to BIS, namely one involving making screenshots and a table for all the Status Effects encountered by Bowser & the Mario Bros. If I am allowed to do it, it will improve quality (hopefully) but at the cost of a construction template halting the Featured status. Feel free to discuss the project below here. Frostyfireyoshi (talk)

The project sounds fine to me; however, I will have to remove my support vote. I will not oppose, because I think it deserves FA status. CosmicBlueToad (talk)

We need a archive for this commen section :D. Anyways, I think having the status effect really boost the page, yet I would rather not have it be under construction. So, I think it would be best to view an example or rough draft of what it would look like. But, PLEASE do not post a rough draft right here, as I don't want to scroll down more. Place it on the Talk Page of the article, and then we can decide if we want to add it. Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

Yeah, this needs archiving or something. BMB, I understand, so I'll ...um, where should I start creating the SE table? The BIS talkpage? I sy start as I probably won't be able to get it done all at once (I'm a very busy person. Veerrryyy busy. Homework,etc.) Frostyfireyoshi (talk) but I'm just wondering whether that would mean having a SE table for the other M&L games.

Heyy, I got the last sprite, the super peach castle!! Now every sprites are high quality! Jimbo390 (talk)

I know it may sound like I am impatient, which I am partically, but is it about time to delete that last oppose vote? It has nearly been a year since we proposed this article, and I think it has waited long enough to be an FA. So, can we delete the vote? Baby Mario Bloops (talk)

This article reminds me of an epic game that got FA. Vinrulz (talk)

Please don't chat on talkpages or FA nominating pages. Fuzzipede27 (talk)