Talk:Cape Feather

Why is the feather from Super Mario RPG on here? It doesn't provide a cape at all. Either it should be removed from the article or the whole article should be moved simply to "Feather". ~ Joshi 04:40, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

"Wing Feather"
Why is the Feather that turns Mario in Wing Mario in SM64DS merged to Cape Feather? I know they're both feathers, but they look different and turn Mario into something else. Although both Power-Ups (Cape Mario and Wing Mario) make Mario fly, they have different attributes (Cape Mario: The cape on Mario's neck, Wing Mario: the wings on his cap), and the method of flying is different as well (Cape Mario: First a Jump, then up & down simulative (if I'm correct), Wing Mario: Triple Jump, then steer (Up = Dive, Down = raise) (again, if I'm correct)). I don't think I'll start a proposal yet, but I think to do either these things with this "Wing Feather": I'd choose the second option myself, but I think you all would choose the first option instead. But if we make a new article, there are two more options: I would choose the second option (again), but I think that would be a conjectural name, so I think the first one's more official. But I might be wrong. Tell me what you think about it.
 * Split it from Cape Feather, and merge it to Wing Cap (as they got pretty much the same effect)
 * Split it from Cape Feather, and make a new article for it
 * Call the new article "Feather (Super Mario 64 DS)"
 * Call it "Wing Feather" instead

How about a third option; merge it to the Wing Cap article in a new section. The two items have the same function and the only reason why the wing feather became a separate item was for gameplay reasons. So that other characters cannot turn directly into Wing Mario.-- 17:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Oooh, good one. Although it's more like a sub-option for the first one, it is an acceptable option. Such thing also happened to Star Hill, right? Only with a different reason.

The official name is "Wings" (seen in the manual). Go figure.

Put Super Mario 64 (DS) info somewhere else
This is discussed in depth above, but no action was ever taken that I can see. In short, the "feather" from Super Mario 64 DS looks nothing like the Cape Feather, is called Wings both in game and in the manual, and has only a vaguely similar effect. I'm proposing three options here:

Option 1: Remove Super Mario 64/Super Mario 64 DS from this article, place info about the DS item on Wing Cap. Option 2: Remove Super Mario 64/Super Mario 64 DS from this article, make new article for the DS item (and move the article currently at the name "Wings" accordingly as well, of course). Option 3: Do nothing.

Proposer: Deadline: November 24, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

 * 1) Per proposal/comments above. I think this is the better option than making a new page, since both items do the exact same thing.
 * 2) Per proposer.
 * 3) Per proposer and above discussions.
 * 4) The Cape Feather doesn't even appear in those games. The feather doesn't even look like a Cape Feather. So per proposal.
 * 5) Per Proposal.
 * 6) - Per all.

Option 2

 * : Well that would be like merging Tanooki Suit and Super Leaf. They have the same effect (as of recent) but have different articles. However, you may explain that the Super Leaf article contains Raccoon Mario info, thus stays in one article. Basically, the Tanooki Mario information on the Super Leaf article would go on the Tanooki Suit page if Option 1 goes through.

DK64 Feather?
Why is there no info about the ammo feathers from Donkey Kong 64? The Feather page redirects here, on the Cape Feather page. Why don't we change the redirection page (Feather) to a page for the ammo feathers? (or a disambuigation page for the Cape Feather, the one from SM64DS, the one from DK64 and the other feathers if there's more) --Metalex123 (talk) 00:39, 13 July 2014 (EDT)

most recent name
it's just the feather in mk8d, so your policies indicate this page needs moved if i recall correctly 73.147.234.34 01:59, 10 May 2017 (EDT)
 * Several items in the Mario Kart series received name changes, such as Dash Mushrooms. That doesn't mean they override the older name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:08, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Technically, it's the most recent and most common name that takes precedence, and even then, in-game names take precedence over manual names which take precedence over guide names which take precedence over website names and so on and so forth. If the name "Cape Feather" appears only in the manuals and the name "Feather" appears within the game itself, there may be a case for moving the article. 12:12, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * They're announced as Cape Feathers when placing them in Super Mario Maker, so I think it's pretty clear they're the "base name" in this case. There's no Cape Mario in the Mario Kart series, that's probably why that part of the name was omitted there. Besides, if Cape Feather were changed to Feather, what prevents Mushroom from changing to Dash Mushroom using the same logic? LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

Split "Cape Feather" and "Feather" similar to how we handle Super Mushroom and Mushroom
So after the Wing Cap proposal failed, I came up with a different idea using information gained during it that should satisfy all bases, and now want to go ahead and propose it. Basically, split the non-capey Mario Kart item from here to "feather" (moving the current feather disambig page) and merging the SM64DS item to that new page, just like how so many not-Super Mushrooms are grouped together on the Mushroom page despite not necessarily being based off each other. In this case, the SMK and 64DS feathers are separately based on the Cape Feather, like those mushrooms are separately based on the Super Mushroom.

Proposer: Deadline: June 24, 2021, 23:59 GMT July 1, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per Proposal
 * 2) - After reviewing the Wing Cap proposal and mulling it over for a bit, this seems like the best option. In addition to the Mushroom and Super Mushroom precedent, both the Japanese and English versions omit the cape-specific part of the name when the Feather has a non-cape effect, which includes both Mario Kart and SM64DS. I don't think the arguments for keeping the SM64DS Wings merged with Wing Cap hold water, given the existence of other items that do the exact same thing such as 1-Up Mushrooms and 1-Up Hearts, Life Mushrooms and Life-Up Hearts, and the Mega Mushrooms disguised as Super Mushrooms in SM64DS. The fact that SM64DS is a remake does not change this. Bowser's Cheese items in the Bowser's Inside Story remake serve the same purpose as Syrup Jars, with SJs being only usable by the Mario Bros. when in the original, Bowser also used SJs.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - Per all
 * 5) Per all, these arguments make sense and it's consistent with what we've done in the past.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) I agree it would be best to separate it that way. Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) The feather from Mario Kart and the feather from Super Mario 64 DS have nothing in common besides both being feathers, so putting them on the same page makes no sense at all to me. The Mario Kart feather is obviously meant to be the Cape Feather, just with a different effect inspired by the original to fit the different gameplay, like all Mario Kart items. I also don't understand the link between the Cape Feather and the SM64DS feather; after reading through the Wing Cap proposal, the only evidence I found that they are the same thing is they're both feathers and they both fall in a similar way (which happens to be a very generic way for a feather to fall), which obviously doesn't mean they're the same item, otherwise we should merge 1-Up Mushroom to Super Mushroom because they're both mushrooms and they both move in the same way. The only reason I see that makes any sense to me is the precedence from the Mushroom and Super Mushroom split, but I actually don't agree with the way we handle that either.
 * 2) I don't see much of a reason to split when it's pretty obvious that these are meant to be the same item providing different effects and I don't think it's worth splitting over when the Cape Feather appears so rarely as is. Mushrooms are an entirely different can of worms and I don't really see that as a valid precedent for splitting this. (I'd almost consider merging them actually, if it weren't for the fact that Nintendo was so insistent on the terminology)
 * 3) The Mushroom situation is not relevant here, because the great amount of variety in utility the Mushroom has across the series warrants a distinction from the "gain an extra hit point" power-up, despite appearing identically. The only instance in which the Cape Feather does something other then granting a cape is its Mario Kart iteration. It and the Super Mario 64 DS item being both feathers is not enough to warrant its own "Feather" page. Keeping the disambiguation is fine by me. (Also, removing the SM64DS info from Wing Cap wouldn't make sense because Mario still wears the Wing Cap after grabbing the feather.)
 * 4) Given that the Feather power-ups in general appear rarely (with the Wings power-up only appearing in SM64DS to retain the original game's Wing form, since the others' caps and the Power Flower are used for the original power-up caps' effects), they look different (one is just white, and the other has orange and yellow details), and that they grant separate forms, I don't see a reason to merge the two. Also, only the Cape Feather has appeared in Mario Kart (and no other spinoff series, at that).
 * 5) After some considerations, per all.

Comments
I agree with Hewer in that the Mario Kart item is definitely different from the SM64DS item. However, I am not entirely sure on if MK item is different enough from the cape feather. And that is the reason why I haven't voted in this yet. 11:36, June 23, 2021 (EDT)

@Hewer And how is that any different from how we handle our Mushroom page? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:43, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * As I stated at the end of the vote, I don't agree with how we handle that either, and that precedent seems to be the only argument for doing this. What this would result in would be a random iteration of the Cape Feather being split and a completely irrelevant power-up from one of the 3D games with no similarities at all besides being a feather (not even the name is the same, let alone effect and appearance) being merged with it, and I fail to see any logic behind that. 13:20, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * The English name of "wings" in this case is a blatant mistranslation based solely on Japanese synonyms. Either way, the similarities are that they are both directly based on the Cape Feather without actually being it, with the MK item being visually based on it while the 64DS item is functionally based on it. Anyways, how would you handle the mushroom page? Where would you draw the lines on that without there being any confusion or mingling between effects or other attributes? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:35, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * The SM64DS feather is functionally based on the Wing Cap, not the Cape Feather, and even if that wasn't the case, we aren't going to merge Gold Flower and Ice Flower for both being based on the Fire Flower because they're completely different and unrelated items otherwise. Also, the Mario Kart item is pretty clearly meant to be the Cape Feather but with a different effect for the different gameplay. Bullet Bills don't make Mario go really fast automatically in the platformers, and the Fire Flower doesn't turn Mario into Fire Mario in the Mario Kart games, but we aren't splitting those. As for the Mushroom page, I would probably just merge it with Super Mushroom since, again, it's the same thing with a different effect to match the different gameplay. I still fail to see any connections between the Cape Feather and the SM64DS feather besides both being feathers. 13:53, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * What about Super Mushroom (healing item) then? So far consensus has been to merge it instead. As for what I was meaning, the Wing Cap does not gently float downwards while swaying back-and-forth. And of course (as brought up in the previous proposal), Wing Mario is a functional replacement to Cape Mario more suited to early 3D. The flower example you gave is quite frankly terrible considering neither have a generic identifier. Flower (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) being merged to a hypothetical other "normal" flower based on the Fire Flower had one existed would be more accurate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:01, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * You've lost me. The way the Wing Cap falls down doesn't mean the SM64DS feather isn't based on it, especially when it is literally its replacement and gives exactly the same form. Also, Cape Mario and Wing Mario being similar doesn't really affect this in my opinion (especially since the Mario Kart feather you're trying to split doesn't even grant the Cape Mario form). Raccoon Mario is similar to Cape Mario as well, and the Super Leaf also falls just like the Cape Feather, but that doesn't mean we'll merge the Super Leaf here, because it's an unrelated power-up that gives a completely different form which just so happens to also grant flight (and if we're merging power-ups because they give similar forms, then why aren't we merging the forms themselves at that point?). I also don't get how the flowers I brought up not having generic identifiers makes any difference, and I don't understand the relevance of the SMRPG flower, which isn't even a power-up and has essentially nothing to do with the Fire Flower. If, in the next Mario Kart game, they renamed the Fire Flower to just 'Flower', would you also try to split that? As for the healing Super Mushroom, that seems to me to be choosing some healing mushrooms from RPGs and putting them there while leaving others on the mushroom article. Personally I'd merge the Mario & Luigi mushrooms for consistency and maybe split the rest into their own pages. 14:49, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * The Wing Cap and the SM64DS item have even less in common, so I'm not sure what your point there is. Wing Mario and Cape Mario fly in the same manner (ie translating downward momentum into upwards momentum), completely different from Raccoon Mario's "run and fly upwards and then float down." As for the point I was making, it was the blatant similarity to the SMW feather in function (thus making it and the MK ones separately and generically based upon the same source, which is also precisely why your Gold/Ice Flower example doesn't fit; generic names with similar origins indicate a similar idea for a concept even without them being based on each other, like not just the mushroom page, but many real-life animal pages, like frog). I don't know where you're going with the Super Leaf, as nothing I have put forward even tangentially relates to doing anything remotely close to that. The RPG flower is as well blatantly based on the Fire Flower's original artwork (recall the current design didn't exist until Partners in Time) and for that matter lets Mario shoot fireballs (among other abilities). If the Fire Flower in MK were renamed, I'd assume that would be a fluke at least at first considering it's already been established as a Fire Flower within that series, though if it kept happening, we have precedence with Banana Bunch and Triple Bananas. As for your healing item idea, it seems needlessly complicated and arbitrarily choosy to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:38, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * Sorry if I've misunderstood, but what you seem to be saying with this proposal is 'this feather item is vaguely similar to this other feather item so let's split one random iteration of the other feather item which has nothing to do with the first feather item at all and merge those together anyway because they're supposedly both based on the same feather item and their names are generic', which makes no sense to me. Items being similar or based on each other doesn't mean they're the same thing. Wing Mario and Cape Mario being similar doesn't really have anything to do with that in my opinion, especially since the version of the Cape Feather you're trying to merge to the SM64DS feather doesn't even grant the Cape Mario form. Also, the reason I said Raccoon and Cape Mario are similar is that they both share the running forward and then flying mechanic, the slow falling, and the tail/cape attack, but that's besides the point. I also personally find the current way we set the mushrooms up to be far more complicated and choosy, especially with some RPG healing mushrooms being merged to the mushroom page but not others, though I haven't looked at the entire debate surrounding the mushroom pages so I might be missing something. 16:07, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * Separation based on official terminology is just going with what Nintendo has set. It seems straightforward to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:22, June 23, 2021 (EDT)
 * There have been far larger name changes than Cape Feather to Feather before and even design changes which we have merged, like Bub on Cheep Cheep and Boss Bass on Big Cheep Cheep, and similarly, items having the same name doesn't make them the same thing (that's why we have identifiers). The Mario Kart feather is clearly supposed to be a Mario Kart version of the Cape Feather, and since the official terminology for the SM64DS feather is 'wings' (meaning the items don't even have the same name, so this would not be splitting based on the official terminology), I still fail to understand this idea. 03:24, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * "Hane" has been the official terminology for both in the language of origin, which is among the more important defining factors from my perspective. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:50, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Having the same name doesn't make it the same item, especially not when it's a name as generic as 'feather', hence identifiers and disambiguation pages existing for when different things have the same name. I don't see how these two feathers could possibly be the same thing, as even if the SM64DS feather is based on the Cape Feather, it has even less to do with the Mario Kart version. I very highly doubt the generic white feather meant to replace the Wing Cap in SM64DS was ever meant to be the same thing as the Mario Kart series' interpretation of the Cape Feather. 10:44, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Again, though, frogs, jellyfish, and clams likely aren't based on each other. For that matter, coin and banana have some likely unintentional variety among subseries, though they are admittedly more commonplace. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:08, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Those make more sense to me to be all in one page by virtue of being generic animals not specific to the Mario series. In this case, these are Mario-specific items which are very clearly not the same thing, and one of which is just Mario Kart's interpretation of the Cape Feather that functions differently to its other appearances to fit different gameplay like all Mario Kart items. If I understand correctly, you're saying that these are the same because they're both called feather if you happen to use Japanese names and they're supposedly both based on the Cape Feather according to fan speculation. Should we also merge Spike Trap with Spike Block because their Japanese names are the same and the latter might be based on the former? 13:03, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Spike Trap's got a lot of names, but maybe, actually, though that being a M&W name makes it unlikely. This seems to be a generic feather to me, acting as a powerup in the same level of fantasy as a generic piece of cheese acting as a magic or fighting spirit or whatever-BP's-supposed-to-be-restoring item (which by the way, we treat as the same item as the LM Easter egg prop that spawns Golden Mice). It's not like "magic feather grants flight" is that uncommon of a trope. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:03, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * The Mario Kart feather you're trying to merge this with doesn't grant flight though, it just makes the user jump a bit. As for the cheese, I actually didn't know about that and I'm not sure whether I'd split it. My point is the feather items are very clearly meant to be different, and being somewhat similar doesn't mean they're the same thing. 15:43, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Feathers granting that isn't uncommon either. If they were "meant to" be different, they'd intentionally name them different, like Power Flower from Fire Flower (which it is almost certainly based upon; note how Super Mushroom is still named as such). I also don't appreciate the "fan speculation" remark, considering the MK item is blatantly based on the Cape Feather and considering the Cape Feather appears in 64DS's minigames, there's not much room to argue the "wings" is only coincidentally similar to the Cape Feather. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:07, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * When I said 'fan speculation', I was only referring to the SM64DS feather being based on the Cape Feather, as I have repeatedly brought up that the Mario Kart feather is obviously meant to be the Cape Feather but with a different effect for different gameplay. The SM64DS feather was a replacement for the Wing Cap (as you said, feathers magically granting flight isn't very uncommon as a trope) and has a different appearance, effect (turning Mario into a completely different form) and name (seemingly in all languages) to the Cape Feather, so I'd say it's very possible that the similarities are a coincidence. As for the argument that they'd intentionally name the feathers differently, I very, very highly doubt that the Cape Feather's specific appearance in Super Mario Kart was even considered when the SM64DS feather was being created, so I think it's more likely that the names being the same in other languages was a coincidence resulting from the generic name of 'feather'. 16:25, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * In that (highly probable) case, they aren't "meant to" be different, then, they're just separate uses of generic feathers for a fantasy usage, which is why I think they should be merged like the cheese is. Now, I don't think all feathers should be merged here; the SMRPG, Time Machine, and DK64 items all have nothing to do with the SMW item at all, with the first being a Native American-style headband (which I don't know the JP name to), a generic feather of supposed real-world historical significance (thus getting the same split reasoning as Coins (Mario is Missing!)), and an ammunition item, but the two items from Nintendo R&D games I think should be merged based upon the established conceptual similarities (note again the Cape Feather is in 64DS's casino minigames). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:32, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * I don't think I'd go so far as to say the Mario Kart feather is generic when it's obviously meant to be the Cape Feather, but otherwise I at least somewhat understand the logic behind this now. 16:42, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Basically, the page I am envisioning is in regards to "Cape Feather minus Cape" (as that seems to be what Nintendo is going for when simply using the "feather" terminology), which all evidence so far points to both of these being; as the casino Cape Feather indicates, it wasn't forgotten during that game's development and thus all established similarities with the game's own feather to the Cape Feather can be safely inferred as intentional. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:45, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Wait. You think that because the Cape Feather is part of a mini-game that it was intentional that the Wings in this game was meant to be based on the Cape Feather. The mini-game you speak of looks to be a representation of older games. It was meant to be a cameo, which isn't too common. And besides that, things in this mini-game doesn't have to be in the main game. I say that because there is no Super Star in the main game. And it has many SMB sprites and a SMB picture. 21:10, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * It means they hadn't forgotten it existed. And because of the obvious functional similarities, any assumption that the 64DS feather could possibly be a coincidence has no ground to stand on. It's obvious it's based on the Cape Feather and the original Cape Feather appearing in any capacity means it was on the brain at some point in development. I in no way implied that appearing in the minigame means it appeared in the main game, what the heck. Don't put words in my mouth. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:59, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Just because they didn’t forget something doesn’t mean that they also used it in the main game, either. You assuming they thought of the Cape Feather during development and decided to make it into the main game. That is also speculation. There is no proof of this. Especially since we don’t know when I’m development this mini-game was made. 23:47, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying they demonstrably hadn't forgotten about it. And thus, the functionally identical, almost visually identical item that turns Mario into a form almost entirely functionally identical to that of the other feather's is blatantly based off the original power-up. There's no "speculation" about it. It's obvious. At worst, it's inference. To say it isn't based on it is to say that all the aforementioned similarities are a coincidence, which due to the evidence that they hadn't forgotten the Cape Feather, makes it not possible to be a coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:54, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * Just because they didn't forget about doesn't mean that they used it in the main game. It is not proof. Take a look at Yoshi Theater from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. From the posters, it is clear that AlphaDream did not forget about Partners in Time. And yet, they didn't remake it like Bowser's Inside Story. You also say that it looks very similar. Well help me see it. Because I don't. The Wings have brushes like the wings actually on the Wing Cap while the Cape Feather is smooth. 10:23, June 25, 2021 (EDT)
 * That M&L thing doesn't even make sense and is neither relevant nor analogous to this even remotely. I didn't say they "used it in the main game" (again, stop putting words in my mouth). I said that the feather was inspired by the Cape Feather. As for how they look similar, how does it need explaining that (emphatically not a full wing) looks like a white feather? They honestly look more similar than Super Mushrooms between SMW and 64DS, and those are the same item. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:25, June 25, 2021 (EDT)
 * Ok. I see what I am trying to do now. I thought you meant that because the Wings are part of the main game. Anyways. You think that they decided to make the Wings similar to the Cape Feather, especially the one that appeared in Super Mario Kart's magazine, and not the wings on the Wing Cap? The wings on the Wing Cap are more feather-like than the Cape Feather. The Minecraft page says that the feathers used in the Mario pack were based on the wings on the Wing Cap and not the Cape Feather.  14:06, June 25, 2021 (EDT)
 * I think both the SMK feather and the 64DS "wings" are separately based on the Cape Feather (a la all the mushrooms based on Super Mushrooms), with the lack of orange stripes being an inconsistent design thing (like Super Mushroom and especially Fire Flower have had; heck, Power Flower's design was likely originally intended for Fire Flower, though that bit I can't prove). The wings on the Wing Cap look like the typical cartoon wings Paratroopa and the rest use to me. As for Minecraft, the wings in it are based off the Elytra item in base Minecraft, which according to Minecraft's own developers is based on the Wing Cap in function. (The update about their initial creation outright said "it's like Mario 64.") Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:25, June 25, 2021 (EDT)

@DannyTheDingo In regards of the Wing Cap, I'd say similar to how we don't list SM3DL as an appearance of the Tanooki Suit despite him wearing one as it is not an appearance of the power-up itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:03, June 24, 2021 (EDT)
 * After thinking about it again, I'd be in favor of moving the SM64DS "Wings" to its own article, like in Option 2 from the above 2012 vote. As for now, I still oppose the move to join it with the Mario Kart Cape Feather as plainly "Feather". 04:55, June 24, 2021 (EDT)

Well, this got polarizing all of a sudden. To be honest, I'm mostly indifferent on splitting the feather - the logic behind it is sound, but I don't have a strong opinion on it. My main reason for supporting this is the failure of the Wing Cap proposal. For the reasons mentioned in my vote, the SM64DS feather should not be merged with Wing Cap, and this proposal passing would solve that problem. If this proposal fails or stalemates, I think a revisiting of the Wing Cap proposal is in order, because I don't like the opposers' arguments against it. 20:46, June 24, 2021 (EDT)