MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/42

Stricter Guidelines for "References to Other Games" and "References in Later Games" Sections
DELETED BY PROPOSER

Not sure where to put this or if it even needs a proposal, but I've noticed way too many times that the "References in Other Games" and "References in Later Games" sections are used for extremely minor things (especially characters/enemies reappearing) that are probably coincedental. After all, where do we draw the line? Is every appearance of Mario a direct reference to Donkey Kong? Is every appearance of "256" a Super Paper Mario reference? Wait, what's that? The Paper Mario: Sticker Star page says it is? Uh-oh:

Mario Bros.:
 * Super Paper Mario: Super Dimentio indirectly alludes to the Shellcreepers' weakness during the final battle, when taunting Mario and his party that they shall "wallow in helplessness like upside-down turtles!"

New Super Mario Bros.:
 * Super Mario Bros. 2 - Just like in this game, Small Mario can crouch.
 * Super Mario World - an item is stored on the touchscreen, and can be summoned at any time during each level. This derives directly from Super Mario World. A Monty Mole, which first appeared in this game, appears as a boss called Monty Tank. Wigglers also appeared. Grinders don't appear in New Super Mario Bros., but spiked balls appear in the game, having the same function. Items can be held in a level, just like in the aforementioned game. Also this game features Warp Pipes that can shoot the player into the air like Cannons.
 * Mario Party 4 - Mini Mushroom and Mega Mushroom return with the same function as in this game.

Super Paper Mario:
 * Mario Bros. - Super Dimentio's simile taunt to the party after the first half of the battle has him comparing the party to upside-down turtles as they wallow in helplessness, alluding to how the Shellcreeper enemy was frequently defeated.

Super Mario 3D Land:
 * Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels: Poison Mushrooms return from this game. Mario and Luigi retain their singular characteristics (Mario is more stable and balanced while Luigi jumps higher at the cost of worse traction). The phrase "THANK YOU!!" appears in the last level, but is in English instead.
 * New Super Mario Bros.: Star Coins return as Star Medals and have a similar use (unlock levels). Some flowers and bushes have a similar design to the ones from this game. Also, some levels share a similar design. A lot of returning enemies keep their NSMB designs. Dry Bowser also returns.

Paper Mario: Sticker Star:
 * Super Mario Bros. 2: Shy Guys, Snifits, Pokeys, and Ninjis, which were introduced in this game, appear in this game. Some Pokeys are designed like their first appearance from this game as well. The main theme is a jazzy version of the credits theme with snippets of the main overworld theme.
 * Super Paper Mario: At the beginning of the game, after Mario saves one of the Toads in Decalburg, the latter will say that Bowser crumpled him up 256 times, which is a nod to the running joke in Super Paper Mario, starting with Dimentio claiming that Dimension D makes his attacks "256 times more powerful", followed by Flint Cragley's camera crew stating that the "Rainbowzilla" story was apparently told that amount of times. This number is also the number of cards in the game.

New Super Mario Bros. U:
 * Super Mario World: 3-Up Moons, Bony Beetles, Baby Yoshis, Sumo Bros., Thwimps, and Torpedo Teds return. When Mario reaches the haunted part of Soda Jungle, the screen fades into the submap similar to how it fades in and out in this game. Also, the world map is connected again and a ghost ship, similar to the Sunken Ghost Ship level, appears in this game. The Warp Pipes have a similar structure to Super Mario World. Most of the worlds are named after food again. Some of the world's features are similar to those found in Dinosaur Land (e.g. Acorn Plains having jagged mountains or Soda Jungle being one-third based on the Forest of Illusion). Super Mario World has the exact same number of exits this game has: 96.
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii: Big Urchins, Clampies, Eep Cheeps, Spiny Cheep Cheeps, Cooligans, Scaredy Rats, Huckit Crabs, Stalking Piranha Plants, and River Piranha Plants all return.

Proposer: Deadline: April 1, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) I couldn't disagree more. Reading these, minor, but interesting things were always one of my favorite things to do on this wiki. Listing references and allusions is part of the flavor and actually the mood of the original Mario game. Removing all of these would be uninformative of the rapid usage of numbers like "64", "128", and "256" in games, alongside wonderous references. This things you listed were some of the most interesting things of all about the games, how they tie into eachother. This is something a database cannot disacknowledge. These should stay.
 * 2) - As I've said in the comments twice already, a proposal vaguely calling for rules that already exist is unnecessary. Remove the proposal and just start enforcing the policy (and/or make a collab thread on the forum instead to get help with that and raise awareness).
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
So what ideas do you have with stricter guidelines? Pease give a few examples. Andymii (talk) 07:21, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Disallowing examples that are basically "[character/enemy/item] appeared again", along with things that are probable coincedences anyway because of how obscure they are. Binarystep (talk) 08:52, 25 March 2015 (EDT)

This isn't a Writing Guideline proposal so I moved to to "Changes" for now, but it should actually be removed anyway because what you want already exists, having been proposed and accepted via an October 2013 WG Proposal (after a vague proposal like this one was voted down as being useless, I might add). But like so many quality control measures around here, people don't know about it and the "references to other games" sections have become crap-filled again. While another proposal is unnecessary, making a collaboration thread on the forums would probably be a good idea to try and fix this issue across the wiki. -

I definitely think stuff like Shy Guys, Pokeys, Monty Moles etc. are no longer references to their debut games because they have appeared so many times. Perhaps the limit should be five times, and if it reappears again it shouldn't be a reference to the debut anymore? -- 11:53, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Maybe even less, like three. Nintendo these days rarely discards their characters. Andymii (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * I think the rule should be "it isn't a reference unless it's associated with the game in question". Shellcreepers appearing would be a reference, as would Fawful or Goombella, but not something as simple as "[New Super Mario Bros. enemy] appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii". Binarystep (talk) 17:55, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * So, something like those Jumping Piranha Plant things from SMW returning in Mario Party, but not something like "everything from SMG is back in SMG2 so it's a reference". -- 12:31, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

The current rules are: Beyond that, the idea is that people should use common sense to tell the difference between recurring enemies or whatever and conscientious callbacks. Of course, many editors don't conduct themselves so selectively and just dump every possible recurrence or coincidence into the Ref and Trivia sections. Just because they do doesn't mean they should, however, and other users are already well within their rights to step in and removing all the non-references. I say again: this proposal is unnecessary. -
 * References:
 * When a unique spite, design or music theme from a past game reappears. Example: a character's sprites and the design of ground blocks from Super Mario Bros. are very recognizable if they appear in a more recent game.
 * A character, location or enemy that was notable exclusively in one game is brought back someway; a particularly strong reference would go so far as to mention the happenings from that earlier game. Example: Goombella and the University of Goom are mentioned in Paper Mario: Sticker Star, clearly referencing to Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
 * Not references:
 * Any passing physical or gameplay resemblance where there is no actual proof that the purpose was to make a reference. Example: unless an official source proves otherwise, Super Mario 3D World doesn't refer to Wario Land 4 just because Bowser's car bears a little resemblance to the Wario Car.
 * Follow-up games aren't references to the original ones. Example: Super Mario Galaxy 2 isn't a reference to Super Mario Galaxy.
 * When a character, location, object or enemy that became common to the series reappears. Example: Shy Guys appearing in Paper Mario: Sticker Star isn't actually a reference to their debut game, Super Mario Bros. 2.

Toadbrigade5, I think you misunderstood the proposal, it's not saying not to mention arc numbers and things like that on the wiki, it's saying that "references" like "Shy Guys appearing for the millionth time is a reference to Super Mario Bros. 2", "The number 256 appearing at all anywhere for any reason is a direct Super Paper Mario reference" or "Mentioning flipped-over turtles is a reference to the original Mario Bros." are not actually references to specific games. Binarystep (talk) 06:23, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

Okay, can this be removed since the guideline already exists? Binarystep (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2015 (EDT)