Talk:Bowser/Archive 1

i think it should be noted that there is much controversy in the mario fan community about bowser and king koopa being different ppl. personally i think the differences are quite easy to spot--Valf 10:36, 15 May 2006 (EDT)


 * Well, Bowser is called Koopa in Japan. Bowser is Koopa and Koopa is Bowser. In the Mario cartoons, Koopa looks strange because he was modeled after Wart from Super Mario Bros. 2. Additionally, most of Koopa's forces in the cartoons are from Super Mario Bros. 2. Wart's features were made more reptilian to create Koopa. Additionally, the King Koopa version of Bowser appeared on official U.S. merchandise of Mario under the name Bowser.--Son of Suns 14:35, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

Species
In New Super Mario Bros. world 8 map screen, a couple of spiked shell skeletons can be seen. Could these be shells from Bowser's race? Or some spiked Koopa shell like the Koopatrols, or the blue winged ones in the Mario Kart series? - Yoshi Mastar


 * Some sort of spiked Koopa, although it cannot be confirmed that they are members of Bowser's race. -- Son of Suns

I read in a manual (I forget what game) that Bowser is a mutated Koopa Troopa User:Maxlover2
 * I'm guessing it would be from the NES or SNES era, because lately the manuals have just been about how he is the evil King of the Koopas and he kidnaps Peach and Mario slaps him upside the head and all that. In other words, the recent manuals tend to tell us only what we already know, not new info, so if you're going to search I'd start around those two systems.  09:43, 1 December 2007 (EST)

They're Bowser Shells, people. -pseudodinoforclasspresident!

Controversy
We should add a small section on the controversy surrounding his death. What do you think about? H K
 * Which death? The one prior to Luigi's Mansion or the one featured in New Super Mario Bros.? --Son of Suns 15:41, 19 July 2006 (EDT)

Umm... The one with controversy.Death in Paper Mario. Confirmation in Mansion. And unexplained revival in Sunshine. H K

I'm thinking that the "death" of Bowser in Mansion is the deactivation of a realistic Robowser, not the death of Bowser possessed by the weird-laugh Boo-guy ruler.---P S

You could...but I wouldn't know what to write. Bowser does appear at the parade sequence at the end of Paper Mario, indicating that he is still alive. However, he does die (by Mario's hands) in between Paper Mario and Luigi's Mansion. Bowser then was somehow revived and released from his portrait prison (along with King Boo). Bowser Jr. may have revived his father as he has shown this ability later in New Super Mario Bros. I would find it more interesting to have a History section, explaining the in-universe biography of Bowser with each game being an episode in his history. From conquering the Mushroom Kingdom to the Mushroom World to Dinosaur Land to Peach's Castle to stealing the Star Rod to his death to his unexplained revival and attack on Isle Delfino to his more recent adventures. --Son of Suns 15:48, 19 July 2006 (EDT)

That's a good idea. But I haven't played Snes mario games, and would be unable to provide info on these for such a project. H K

Hey, why does Bowser keep changing size from game to game? One game he's small the next he's huge..... H K


 * Super Mushrooms...or the chunks of meat seen in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. --Son of Suns 10:09, 21 July 2006 (EDT)

Or the potion in Mario party 5, maybe. User: Maxlover2

Okay, cool. H K

Could youwrite up until N64 on the history? I just haven't played all the nes snes games. I've played some. But not all. H K

I also can't write about Partners in time. H K

Image
The second image on this article does not look too good. Would anyone mind if I removed it? Thanks. MC Otaku 01:53, 31 May 2006 (EDT)


 * Heh, please do, Otaku. It would be nice if you found something to replace it with first, though, like finding an image of Bowser in his kart. DarkInsanity (talk)


 * How does this work? MC Otaku 19:24, 2 June 2006 (EDT)
 * Edit: Wait, somebody already got that. Never mind.

Question
Didn't Nintendo origanally say Koopa/Bowser died in paper Mario, but no one believed them, so they gave King Boo that Koopa/Bowser suit to prove it? And then they changed thier minds? HK


 * I don't know if Nintendo officially stated Bowser died, but I don't think they would kill of their biggest villain. In Luigi's Mansion, Madame Clairvoya states Bowser has been "soundly defeated". Many consider this to mean Bowser died, but this could mean the Bowser was just beat up so much he couldn't fight for a while. Thus the suit at the end could be Bowser's corpse or a robotic (or magical) suit. But, Bowser did die in the New Super Mario Bros. and became an undead monster. However, he was just revived to his normal self. That means if Bowser died before Luigi's Mansion, he could have been simply revived. --Son of Suns 12:30, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Yes, I havent beat sunshine, but maybe something there says he was revived by JR before that, too? HK
 * No. There is no mention of resurection in the entire game. It's just implied if you believe Bowser died before Luigi's Mansion. Like I said, Bowser could be in hiding, so weak after the battle in Paper Mario that he had to take a break and send both King Boo and his son to do his dirty work for him. Also, Luigi's Mansion cannot be the last game chronologically. This is because Professor E. Gadd invents the Poltergust 3000 in this game, but invents the Super Poltergust 3001 in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, and the Poltergust 4000 in Mario Kart DS. If Luigi's Mansion was last chronologically, then the Poltergust Luigi uses would have to have a higher model number than previous Poltergust models. --Son of Suns 15:05, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Hmmm... I have no idea what to think now! I also wonder if Paper mario takes place in some alternate paper world, and that none of its events have any bearing on the real life, and Clairavoya was reffering to Mario 64...... HK


 * How do you know Clairvoya was referring to Super Mario 64? Also, Paper Mario probably exists in the same realm as the other games; the Paper Mario series just have certain stylistic choices, like all Mario games. --Son of Suns 19:41, 28 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Actually, I am only making theories. I'm just thinking! Making sense of this whole timeline....HK

Guys... it's just a game. Anything the developers want can happen. --DarkInsanity (talk)


 * I know. But I find it fun to try to make sense of the nonsensical Marioverse. =) --Son of Suns 09:23, 29 June 2006 (EDT)


 * That was well put Son Of Suns. Very well put. HK

On second examination, it seems Bowser did die before Luigi's Mansion. In the game, Madame Clairvoya says: "Bowser? how can this be? I see the Hideous form of BOWSER?! I don't believe it, yet I see it. Could King Boo have found some way to revive Bowser?" This mean Bowser died in between Paper Mario and Luigi's Mansion. Also, this means that King Boo is most likely using Bowser's corpse as a weapon during the final fight with Luigi. However, Bowser was truly revived somewhere in between Luigi's Mansion and Super Mario Sunshine. --Son of Suns 15:58, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Seems Nintendo has a lot more plot holes than people thought. I only ever noticed the twins/mario is older hole before. I've started examining the series more closely, and I've started to question the plotline. HK From Wikipedia: Due to the fact that, in the game, Madame Clairvoya claims that Bowser has been 'soundly defeated' by Mario, many believe that Luigi's Mansion is set after all the other Mario games, even those yet to be released; whether or not this is true has not been confirmed. However, even death cannot stop the Koopa King. In New Super Mario Bros., Bowser dies (falls in lava and loses his skin in the process) and becomes an undead monster, only to be revived later in the game. If Bowser really did die before Luigi's Mansion, he may have been revived after the game, but many people deny this and say that after King Boo is defeated, Bowser will gain control over his body again. Either way, this means Luigi's Mansion is not necesarilly the last game chronologically, as Bowser can just be revived over and over again. There is a possibility that King Boo had possesed a still living Bowser.

Another reason for people believing that Luigi's Mansion is set after other Mario games is that King Boo says, "perhaps it is merely because I remember how much trouble you've caused me in the past...", when this is the first game King Boo has appeared in order of release. However, King Boo may have been referring to all the trouble Mario and Luigi have caused to his species; some also choose to believe that this is proof that King Boo and Big Boo are the same being. Luigi was also King Boo's captive in Super Mario 64 DS (which may be the events of the Nintendo 64 game as they 'really' happened). H K

Actually, the Star Guardian things from Paper Mario appeared in Mario Party 5 and Goomboss, the Goomba King who also was from Paper Mario, appeared in Super Mario 64 DS. Therefore, Paper Mario IS in the same continuity. The Mario twin/being older thing is easy. The first child who comes out of the mother's stomache is older, as having both of them come at the same thing would hurt a lot. I should know, my aunt has twins and my parents and she told me that when they were born. In this case though, it is that Mario came out of the stork first. I believe Bowser must have been revived because in New SUper Mario Bros., after you defeat Bowser's skeleton, Junior drags the motionless skeleton and throws it in a magical boiling pot, which Bowser jumps out of, alive and well. Klaus Kratchet

There you go, then. The Koopa's have a way of bringing back Bowser. However, let's note that King Boo was referred to as Big Boo in Super Mario 64 DS. Granted, I'm a hardliner for it being an adventure completely separate from the original or not occuring at all. We don't know what King Boo's true duty's are as king. Perhaps he controls all Boo activity? I really don't think that if Nintendo wanted to rewrite King Boo into the storyline they would have called the character Big Boo. My theory is this: there are still a few annoying little titles between Paper Mario and Luigi's Mansion (these being Dr. Mario 64 and Mario Kart: Super Circuit). If we assume that the spin-offs do not necessarily happen in the order they are released, we could easily place Super Circuit after Luigi's Mansion. This would give Bowser time to revive his castle, too (see Rainbow Road in that version). So, Bowser died from his fall, was used by King Boo. After King Boo escaped, Jr. or some other Koopa (Kammy?) came and revived Bowser in time for the Super Circuit races. Boom! That's my theory. It needed a boom at the end, I'm sorry...

Quotes from DIC shows
Are the Koopa quotes from the DIC shows really necessary? Koopa basically wasn't Bowser but rather a reincarnation of Wart designed by a video game-confused animation studio. (Yes, I am fully aware that Mario referred to this character as "Bowser Koopa" on many occasions and there are further contradictions to this statement, but I'm only observing here.) Besides, the DIC shows are only valuable to the most devout Mario aficionado for the most part; many casual fans such as myself may be baffled. But I digress, the quotes are valuable and much work has been put into that particular area of the article, so could these quotes be perhaps moved instead? MC Otaku 16:04, 30 June 2006 (EDT)


 * I think the quotes take up too much room. Perhaps a Bowser (quotes) page could be created and linked to the Bowser page. Additionally, the quotes could be categorized, such as game quotes and non-game quotes. --Son of Suns 11:40, 30 June 2006 (EDT)


 * I have an idea, what about a Quotes page, with notable quotes and a Super Show section? MC Otaku05:06, 4 July 2006 (EDT)


 * That's fine. Whatever you want to do. --Son of Suns 01:24, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

Bowser's Wife
Does anyone ever wonder why we haven't seen Bowser's wife? --PeteyPiranhaLover 18:06, 2 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Since when does Bowser have a wife? --Son of Suns
 * Here we go again, PeteyPiranha. This would be more suited for a message board thread, not a Wiki. Wayoshi 18:13, 2 August 2006 (EDT)

You're dancing Petey... Right on that line... H K

And I still have no idea what you're talking about, HK. Anyway, Nintendo Power once said that Bowser's wife was Clawdia Koopa, but we've never seen her in a game, so it's likely that that was just a joke. Still, it does make you wonder where those eight kids came from.

Should we make an article about Clawdia? Probably not, but I wanted to know what you thought. Waluigi Freak 99 13:22, 3 September 2006 (EDT)
 * No. It's probably a joke from NP. Wayoshi ( T&middot;C&middot;@ ) 14:57, 3 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Yeah, I thought so. It made me wonder, though.  Bowser thought that he could fool Bowser Jr. into thinking Peach was his mom in Mario Sunshine, so we know that Bowser Jr. has never met Clawdia.  So she probably doesn't exist.

Waluigi Freak 99 15:28, 4 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Lita, Bowser's assistant, from the Super Mario movie could be the Koopalings mother. Although the movies canoness comes into question, she's the only candidate.
 * - Yoshi Mastar


 * The movie, the comics, the TV shows, and the video games all exist in their own canons. All ignore the precedent and facts set by the others. It's like the multiple universes and canons of the Mobile Suit Gundam series. -- Son of Suns

Or the Sonic games and comics, movie, shows, etc.HK-47 w4z   h3R3   a  t  17:21, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

The only way bowser could have a wife is if he had a divorce before super paper mario an if he didnt have a wife he could have adopted vruet1(talk &middot; edits)
 * Well, we should make an article if she was mentioned, but state that she may not even exist. 20:25, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

Serious Changes
This article could be featured, after all, it has a great bio, but it seriously needs work.

A lot of the parts of the article are about his stats in RPGs, which should be grouped into one section. All of the information from sports games belongs in one section. A "Physical Description and Traits" section is needed. A "Personality" section is needed. A "Powers and Abilities" section is needed. The part about him in Luigi's Mansion needs information about the controversy of his death. Also, an art gallery could be used, but it isn't needed.Waluigi Freak 99 18:45, 28 January 2007 (EST)
 * Right on the ball, WF.

There also needs to be a Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels section in his bio. Plumber Γ

I made some minor grammar edits, in the Appearance section, but I noticed the part about him resembling a Spiny seems akward, is grammatically incorrect, and might possibly be unnecessary. Is it all right if I take a crack at reworking the section a bit to remove that part, or should I just fix the akwardness and grammar errors? Dinosaur bob 16:19, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Go ahead. -- Sir Grodus

Done. I also spruced up the Powers and Abilities section as well. As this is my first non-grammatical edit here, constructive criticism is welcome! Dinosaur bob 20:25, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Mario Strikers Charged
Should we add Bowser's offical art from Mario Strikers Charged to the gallary section?--YOSHIANDLINK1 08:04, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Of course!! I have it! And it's the first time Bowser appears with an "outfit" like that!--Princess Alyson Koopastool 23:07, 30 November 2007 (EDT)

Brawl pics
Just to say, are five images really needed for the Super Smash Bros section? It seems a bit like over exposure. -- Sir Grodus

Kiss?!
And when, dare I ask, did Bowser actually kiss Mario? -Dodoman

''Super Mario RPG, during the wedding ceremony between Peach and Booster in Marrymore. However, this is just one possibility. The bearded Booster may end up kissing Mario (which is much scarier, as Booster kisses with his mouth wide open) or Peach may kiss Mario (considerably less scary). In fact, Booster and Bowser may kiss each other! --Son of Suns 21:25, 3 June 2006 (EDT) '' - Retrieved from Category talk: Characters who have kissed Mario.
 * You forgot to mention, Booster kissing Mario, Booster kissing Bowser, and Bowser kissing Mario are all accidents. They did not do it on purpose (THANK GOODNESS).

Speaking of kisses, I thought is was hilarious in Mario Tennis Power Tour when Bowser wanted Peach to kiss him and instead he almost gets kissed by Birdo! -Mandy-Chan
 * BowserLover, please take THOSE kinds of talks on the Forum, thank you.

Bowser last name?
At one point in Mario and Luigi: Partners In Time (More specificaly, before the Koopa Cruiser get gunned down.), a generic Koopa mention that Baby Bowser is a great "Koopa Koopa", could that mean that Bowser last name is "Koopa"? Or it's just some random utterance and shouldnt be mentioned on this page? Glowsquid
 * He is already named "King Bowser Koopa" in the article, look at the very fist section. Though I don't know if there is any source for that name, or if it is just merging his Japanese and English names. - 07:14, 12 November 2007 (EST)
 * Ah, OK.

Glowsquid
 * I'm pretty sure Bowser is called "Koopa" a few times in the original manual for Super Mario World. -- Sir Grodus 15:13, 12 November 2007 (EST)
 * In Japan, Bowser is simply called "Koopa", not "Bowser". But that doesn't make him "Bowser Koopa". - 15:15, 12 November 2007 (EST)
 * In Japan, Bowser's first name has never been revealed anyway, its always just been King Koopa. -- Sir Grodus 15:48, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Way too much
All right, I'm the person who deleted a lot of stuff, which is now back. I should've brought it up for discussion first, so here we go. First of all, some the topics are useless, repetitive, overly long, and have been stated before. The quote section is way, way too long and serves no purpose either. Almost every single picture in the gallery is already in the article and one isn't even Bowser; its king boo. The alter-ego stuff is even more ridiculous because it serves no purpose and is also way too long. A lot of the sections are oddly grouped and don't follow a good order. Why in the world do we need a section showing how Bowser feels about other characters when it's perfectly illustrated in the personality section and some of the game information? I mean Bowser' relationship towards toad, give me a break; there is none. Having Bowser's different forms in Mario Party 2 should be summed up in a paragraph and not individually described; it's the same guy after all. His powers and abilities list is way too long and should only have the most common ones; otherwise it will go on forever. A catch card topic is just thrown in the mix and is already stated in the Super Paper Mario section. I understand I deleted a lot of stuff without discussion, but all of it was good in my opinion due to my thoughts previously stated. So, just give me your thoughts. I won't delete anything until we have an agreement.-Darknessofheart

I actually do agree with a lot of what you're saying, a lot of this article could be gotten rid of, or at the very least, integrated or something. -- Sir Grodus 22:36, 14 December 2007 (EST)

The alternate costume thing and the relationship with Toad are very pertinent to the Super Show!, so I'd leave those definately. Really, the point of the Wiki is to go overboard and hit up every last bit of information we have, and information often is repeated over a variety of pages (Super Paper Mario's story is on all of the heroes and villains' pages, for example). So, really, organize, condense, sure, but outright delete? Definately not. 01:38, 15 December 2007 (EST)

We could make a separate article for his alternate forms (not articles for all his forms, but maybe one page with a list of his forms). 14:01, 15 December 2007 (EST)


 * I'm going to address your arguements one by one. Just to let you know, not all of this is positive or negative.  It also contains some helpful hints for your continued Wiki-ing (which I hope occurs, because there's a lot of fluff on the Wiki that could be turned into better articles): "First of all, some the topics are useless, repetitive, overly long, and have been stated before." Here's a fake example from me to you, "Mario then threw Bowser into a bomb and defeated him.  Bowser was defeated."  Would it make sense to delete both sentenses?  You'd delete the second one only, because you need the information about the defeat at least once.  You don't need it twice, though.  How about this, "Mario then threw Bowser into a bomb and defeated him.  Bowser's plan was foiled." Would if make sense to delete both sentenses?  No.  Both summerize the action in the game.  How about this one, which in my ficticious examples would be after the last one, "When Mario defeated Bowser with the bomb, Bowser says, 'I always enjoy a challenge! Thank you, Mario!' meaning that he did not view the conflict with Mario as an evil plot at all." So, assuming that none of this is speculation, would you delete it?  Nope.  Even though it repeats information, that repitition is necesary in order to show readers that the article is now going to expand on a particular event previously discussed.
 * "The quote section is way, way too long and serves no purpose either. Almost every single picture in the gallery is already in the article and one isn't even Bowser; its king boo." Then separate it into a quotes page and leave a section in the article that just says: Expand, don't delete.  You can easily fix the gallery thing yourself, but I would leave those picutures there for completion.  That's my view, but it's a minority one on the Wiki, so do as you'd like with the Gallery.  Oh, and the image of King Boo, make sure that's on the King Boo page before you delete it.  Like I said, you should feel free to move information, not delete it.
 * "The alter-ego stuff is even more ridiculous because it serves no purpose and is also way too long." The purpose is to show Bowser's forms taken in The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, which is part of the canon. If it is official and relates to Bowser, it should be mentioned in the article.  Granted, what the article does miss out on is how Bowser's adherence to a particular theme effect his schemes in those particular episodes, or for that matter what those schemes were in the first place.  You see, a lot of users on the Wiki believe that the movies and cartoon shows don't have a right to be listed on the timeline, even if they opporate within it (like the Super Show, but not like the live-action movie).  I don't know why this is.  I'm trying to see if I can get that changed as we speak.
 * "A lot of the sections are oddly grouped and don't follow a good order." If you're talking about how we've separated the spin-offs from the main games and the other media content from the games, yeah, I totally agree with you. Oh, and the personality sections and all that.  After the biography things get so messy.  We need organization, STAT!  Good call.  But don't flat out delete them.  Remember, organize, move to another page, and only then can you replace the information from the article with a link to your new one.
 * "Why in the world do we need a section showing how Bowser feels about other characters when it's perfectly illustrated in the personality section and some of the game information?" What we're doing is drawing conclusions, and it's perfectly acceptable as we're a Wiki based off of a ficticious subject. If you want to limit the amount of summary we can do, there's going to be a lot of issues.  Sure, if you want to get every quote and every action from every game and plop them in the appropirate section in the biography we could get rid of relationships section, because they'd be illustrated then completely.  But as it stands, no.  Plus, without that section a casual reader (even more then you--I'm talking the visit, don't edit kind) read through ALL of the biography and possibly risk spoilers, and even then might not walk away with an idea of the relationship.  But if you leave the section, they will.  There's a lot that can be said about relationships that can't be summed up as, "Bowser loves Peach" It's more complex: he doesn't know how to express it.  That's something that a casual reader wouldn't necesarily know.  By the way, is that in the article?  I should pop that in.  Oh, and Toad has a relationship with Bowser in the ''Super Show!" Remember, it's just as deserving of coverage as the video games.
 * "Having Bowser's different forms in Mario Party 2 should be summed up in a paragraph and not individually described; it's the same guy after all. His powers and abilities list is way too long and should only have the most common ones; otherwise it will go on forever." Well, if you can do it, go for it with the identities. As for the powers and abilities, why should we remove information?  If there's a lot of information, the article will be long.  How about we make a sortable chart for his powers, though?  Those are usually more useful than extensive bulleted lists.
 * "A catch card topic is just thrown in the mix and is already stated in the Super Paper Mario section." Well, why don't you take the catch card template up to the Super Paper Mario section and then delete the section on the Catch Card... as long as you don't take out any info in the process? The same could be done with all of those random stats for the sports game that you see on a bunch of articles.
 * "I understand I deleted a lot of stuff without discussion, but all of it was good in my opinion due to my thoughts previously stated. So, just give me your thoughts. I won't delete anything until we have an agreement." Thanks for clarifying. I originally thought you were just a spammer... albiet a well organized one! :D  Anyway, I hope we can get this worked out, and for the record, I hear you.  The article is too hefty after the biography section.  It just goes on and on and on... ugh.  But, trim the bush, don't cut it down, right?  15:48, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Ax
Can we add ax to here?-- 12:09, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * The Ax is a separate (If related) item from Bowser. If we merge Ax with Bowser, we might just as well merge Koopa Clown Car aswell and merge Mushroom with Mario.

Blitzwing

I does not understand you therory.-- 12:15, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * The AX is a separate item from Bowser. Yes, Bowser used it on numerous occasion, but the Ax is a distinct item and is worthy of it's own article. If we merge Ax with Bowser, we might just aswell merge Mushroom with Mario, since Mario often use Mushrooms on his adventure.

Blitzwing

Yeah Yeah N00b.-- 12:20, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * ...Blitzwing

Relationships
This section is rather dubious. I don't ever recall Bowser harming Peach, and the whole thing seems biased and/or twisted. Aren't we supposed to be citing sources these days? Without proof these sorta claims are bound to make people question the validity of information on the Wiki, undermining all our efforts (this isn't the first time I've run into these sort of problems but it is the most worrysome as the Bowser article is viewed so much). - Walkazo