MarioWiki:Main Page talk archive 17

Categories and Sub-Categories
Just a question about categories. So, if I understood the guidelines right, enemies that only appear in the Yoshi series should be placed in Category: Yoshi Enemies but not in Category: Enemies. Now, what about non-game characters? They go in Category: Non-Game Characters, but should one also add Category: Characters to the article? I've seen different ways of handling this. (And, btw, is there any guideline of how to order categories at the end of an article? Sorry if this is written somewhere, I didn't find anything.) 07:14, 31 October 2007 (EDT)


 * I don't believe we have any official rules for either (that is, non-game sub-categories and the order of categories). -- Son of Suns
 * When we have no rule, you can set them up yourself, by the way. Handle the non-game characters how you think it would fit best. When noone disagrees, it's a consensus. - 13:07, 31 October 2007 (EDT)


 * Thanks. In my opinion, it's useless to add "Characters" if there's "Non-Game Characters" already, so that'll be my rule... 13:19, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Is there a category someone could look in to see every enemy from a Mario, DK, or Yoshi game? 17:45, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Category: Enemies, Category: Yoshi Enemies, Category: Donkey Kong Enemies exist, but there's no category for all of them together. - 17:53, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Too bad. I'm guessing we don't want to duplicate Enemies to Mario enemies and then leave the enemies category for everyone?  18:00, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

Database Error
Help! I can't get back on my userpage! I was trying to put a link to my newly-made spritesheet on my userpage before I showed it to Minimariolover10, but when I did, I got this "database error" saying "A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "MediaWikiBagOStuff::_doquery". MySQL returned error "1030: Got error 127 from storage engine (localhost)"." And now I can't get back on!! Half my life's work is on there! What can I do?? 13:03, 4 November 2007 (EST)

I WANT MY PAGE BAAAAACK!!!

Gaahhh!!! I'm so sorry!! That was all my fault! I have no idea why that happened!! I deserve to be punished!!

Really. I am. I would never do anything to jepordize this site. I love it here. I was only trying to get my version of one of my spritesheets up. Minimariolover10, I esecially want you to see them, but you'll have to go on my userpage, as I don't want to try and paste that link anywhere else.

I think we are overdue for a move. Glowsquid

We HAVE been getting a number of errors lately (the other day, an error page told me that Wayoshi's talk page was a glitched article), but that's not too uncommon. We normally have about a three day period every few weeks where things are a bit slow. -- Chris 18:31, 4 November 2007 (EST)

Also another Error was no quote for this Main Page.(Super F22 Pilot 04:43, 22 November 2007 (EST))

Background Images
Is it possible to put images of something...anything...and use it as the background for a userpage, or something like that? And if so, how?

17:47, 7 November 2007 (EST)

Wanted Pages...
Do we still have that list of Wanted Pages? I haven't been able to find it.

Look for Special Pages in the side...
 * I think I'm late but in case you haven't found it heres a direct link Wanted Pages

Teh THXGIVIN
Maybe, someone could add, "TO all American Users"? Im Canadian, btw, so Thxgivn is in October. ;) ( Toadbert101 || Give a yell |Sez:) 21:20, 22 November 2007 (EST)

Dimentio Controversy
I'm sure most of us are well aware of the fact that Super Paper Mario was just recently released in the PAL regions. Well, Dimentio is now a featured article, and the portion of the article tells exactly what Dimentio does at the end of the game. I think this could be a bit of an issue, as anybody in the PAL region might read it and *boom* ending's spoiled. Should we edit what we put on the Main Page for Diment', or what?
 * The article contains spoiler tags, correct? They would only read the article if they WANTED spoilers.
 * Yes, but the Featured Article section doesn't have spoiler tags, and it reveals what he does at the end.
 * There, you happy? This isn't exactly optimal to add that extra text. 12:09, 25 November 2007 (EST)
 * Attitude much? Optimal or not, Dodoman has a point. Maybe a limit could be placed on how much text is placed in the FA box, so this doesn't happen again. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 16:09, 25 November 2007 (EST)
 * Am I happy? Well, I'm sure PAL regional people who didn't read it yet are.
 * I'm sure anyone who hasn't played the game yet are happy. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 19:22, 25 November 2007 (EST)

UK release
Mario & Sonic has been out in the UK since the 23rd, please post it up on news :D
 * You should feel free to do so yourself. The news is just like any other page.  Click on the "Help us maintain this page" tab near the bottom of the main page and then you can edit the news from another link.  I'll try to do it for you this time, though.  Thanks for catching that!  21:16, 25 November 2007 (EST)
 * Oh, I just couldn't see an 'Edit' button so I assumed it was up to the Admins. - DC
 * Don't worry! It's a little confusing until you see how it all works.  You'll get the hang of it.  21:45, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Splits & Merges
I know this may be better off on the proposal's talk page. But I figured it'd get more attention here. Anyways to get to my point.

If a proposal is made to split an article (and it passes) should the duties to split it fall on the Person who created the proposal, or the person who archived it? (This to prevent another Ashley & Red Incident).
 * The person who archived it should never be it. He might do it just to keep the page clean, without having cared about the proposal in the first place. So, this only leaves the first option. - 13:33, 26 November 2007 (EST)
 * Uh, DUH! The person who made the Proposal should split the article, not the guy who archived it! *glares at Blitzwing*.
 * Question: Is the proposer himself supposed to vote in favor of his own proposal? I mean, one could just start a controversial proposal without actually giving one's own opinion... (say, I'm not sure whether an article for both Ashley & Red is okay, so let the community decide.) In this case, why should the proposer split the article? 05:26, 27 November 2007 (EST)
 * Shouldn't this be a sysop duty? It seems that the person who splits the article will have to make a decision about when consensus has been reached and in what direction, which may be problematic in the case of a biased or inexperienced proposer.
 * This is why a note is left on the talk page up for supposed split/merge. Once the people involved with the article/proposal have come to what they believe is a consensus, a sysops can step in if needed. For the most part, normal users can do it on their own. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 15:28, 27 November 2007 (EST)

Location Template
Today I was trying to make a location template for the Mushroom Kingdom article by using code from the English Wikipedia. This works on Wikia, but it didn't here.

This created the template on this page, but doesn't do it here. The text and picture are lined up nicely, but the problem is that no actual box is created and the text is to the left. I'm guessing this means we don't have the "infobox bordered" class (it's mentioned in the code, but byon that I have no idea what it is). I suppose that means I should actually make a template based off of the character infobox template then. But, that's something I have no hope doing. Could someone tell me what I'd have to edit in order to make the categories oriented towards locations? As far as the heading and the picture go, it's fine. I just want to change the categoires (full name, species, etc. don't apply to locations as you know) Here's the code below for you. Thank you! 16:50, 29 November 2007 (EST)
 * Wayoshi made a special location template for those of you wondering, so I'm taking down the code since it's cluttering up the page and doesn't have a purpose anymore. Go spread the love at Template:Location-infobox.  Thanks again, Wayoshi!  19:13, 5 December 2007 (EST)

DOJO!!
I think we need to set straight some rules for exactly what updates should go on the news section of the Main Page. The only things I've seen lately are new characters, but we had Final Smashes a long time ago. Anyway, I think that these types of updates should be posted:
 * Newcomers / Veterans
 * Final Smashes
 * Mario-related material
 * Today's update

Anybody agree?
 * When you say today's update do you mean the Hyrule Castle one? 07:09, 30 November 2007 (EST)
 * According to the rules by steve, only a newcomer is major enough. Today's (every day's) update is totally out of place, that's not what the news section is meant to be. - 08:33, 30 November 2007 (EST)
 * So not even veterans are major?
 * Maybe an exception for them. - 16:57, 16 December 2007 (EST)

Mariowiki Chat
Can anyone access to chat since my computer says cannot find server? so is there a solution this this, perhaps?

I'm having a few errors too. A can connect to darkmyst, but #mariowiki is empty..even @Chanserv is gone. -- Chris 22:59, 1 December 2007 (EST)
 * Sounds like its something wrong with the server. They should have it sorted out... Eventually.

Seems to be working fine now. -- Chris 03:42, 2 December 2007 (EST)

We need people to edit things at the Wanted Pages list and people do not know how to get there. To get to the Wanted Pages list look down left then click Special Pages list and scroll down till you see the Wanted Pages and finally you are there at the special page. Before editing the things listed in the most wanted pages list learn grammar first. Also how long is Dimentio is going to be the featured article? Someone must add a box next to the Featured article list called Wanted Pages list because the only way to get there is for folks to know how.(Super F22 Pilot 04:11, 8 December 2007 (EST))

2 Million Page Views
Pretty good number to take notice. -- 02:02, 2 December 2007 (EST)
 * OK... Er, cool? =|
 * KIRBY DANCE PARTY! <(^_^<) <(^_^)> (>^_^)> That's great! 11:42, 2 December 2007 (EST)
 * Fixed your Kirby dance guys. :P Anyway, you gonna alert us when we get to 4 Million, Steve? =|
 * Aw, they're actually cute now! W00T!  09:45, 8 December 2007 (EST)
 * LOL! =P So, we gonna get alerted when we reach 4 Million page views? :|

Opiniated Language

 * Synopsis: Words like "strangely", "oddly", and "most Mario fans" insert individual writers' opinions into articles that should be based on fact. What can we do to change/prevent this?


 * I've noticed that there are a bunch of uses of phrases such as "oddly," "strangely," "(un)fortunately," etc. on the Wiki that imply one's opinion and judgement. "Oddly, in Nintendo Comics System, Birdos could talk fluently and they were also implied to live in bird cages" --Birdo.  By using oddly, the editor is saying that the creative license taken by NCS was "odd." Obviously, the only criticism in an encyclopedia should be that of credible sources such as reviews from game magazines and statements from Nintendo employees.


 * This next part is tricky: "Due to the fact that Nintendo had no involvement in the game, in addition to its lack of popularity, Hotel Mario is largely considered to be non-canonical among both Nintendo and its fans. As such, Nintendo fails to recognize it whenever they discuss the history of Mario, and probably never will." --Hotel Mario. The key bit in there is the use of "Nintendo and its fans."  Are we at liberty assume the whole of Nintendo's opinion due to its absence from "lists"?  Which lists are they (see below for more on this)?  How about one writen by a single editor of an official website in order to give a basic look at the series? Assuming the opinion of a whole group from the lack of work of a sub-group is not valid, and that applies to both Nintendo and especially to the body of unorganized fans.  For that reason, I feel statements such as "most Mario fans" and "considered to be... [insert term here] among... [Nintedo's] fans" are statements of opinion rather than fact, especially if you consider Nintendo's employee's voices in the way I have above.  There's also speculation: "and probably never will." We have no idea.


 * Is this an issue and, if so, how can we encourage people not to do this on the Wiki? 20:48, 12 December 2007 (EST)

More on the list thing: Remember the incomplete list on the original Mario's World web site? It was missing Super Mario Sunshine. Then there's Issue 202 (I believe) of Nintendo Power which acknowledges the Mario movie, a work which uses the Mario concept in a way that the storylines of the game and the film cannot be legitimately intertwined. That list also failed to mention a variety of Mario spin-offs (I believe only one Mario Party game made it on) which have no proof against their position as main series canon. Just because it was on a list doesn't mean it is necesarily part of the main Mario storyline. 20:48, 12 December 2007 (EST)

I think I can answer your second problem:

Interpretation of the Mario storyline is pretty much based on opinion and logic is barely an argument. Our wiki considers Mario crossovers (SSB and Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games), games not released on Nintendo systems (CD-i series Mario games), and Mario media that are not video games (the animated series and live action movie) to be non-canonical. Check Chronology for the official list our wiki goes by. 15:53, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * The decision of what is "canon" (oh how I hate that word) and what not is fan-made itself. You cannot exclude official games without a proper reason. I personally believe that we should not mention "canonity" (ugh) in articles, there is no official Nintendo decision of what "canon" is supposed to be. (Still, of course, we should make a difference between main-stream and spin-off games.) I also think that is a wrong desicion we did not to cite our sources in articles, which makes it hard to make out, especially on our wiki, what is official and what not. I believe that every information not from a game(/comic/movie/show) itself should come with a reference to a website or an added note that it is from the manual. - 16:30, 16 December 2007 (EST)


 * I agree that we should start citing sources on external information (especially on the Beta Elements page). Problem is that our wiki is kind of lazy when it comes to references and searching for proof is a pain. Maybe we can decide this on a proposal. 16:40, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * I don't think so. Many will believe that it is too much work. In fact, unsourced information can still be here, and when the article looks incomplete because of a "missing sources" template, we can show them that they are somehow useful. Still, the community can create a proposal against it when it is too much hassle. What do you think? - 16:50, 16 December 2007 (EST)

First, the proposal has to accepted before it can be canceled. I'll start one right know and see what others think. 16:58, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * Are you now planning to do it, or should I go ahead? - 08:52, 18 December 2007 (EST)

Sure, go ahead. 16:47, 19 December 2007 (EST)

Hmm... back to the canon thing, I'm agreeing with what you said. Really, canonicity has never been mentioned by Nintendo, has it? I think I'm going to start a personal policy of deleting any mentions of it within the articles when I edit. Just like "The Big Eight", I think it's fine to use for the purposes of the Wiki, but it should never over-ride in-universe content, right? I hope that came out right. 01:59, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * Yeah, like the Beta image of a human in Super Mario Sunshine which was labelled "non-canon" in bold print. It's just not right, Nintendo never said what was "canon" and what not. I'd remove it. - 05:36, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * Thanks! I think it may be in our best interest to simply look the other way sometimes rather than say, "Nintendo meant this and that."  You know, write that there are issues with continuity between two games (for example, Mario 64 and Mario 64 DS) and just look past it.  Actually, I think that's what we're already doing with those games, so that's a bad example.  15:01, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Help.
I'd have posted this at the forum, but administrators don't go there anymore. We seriously need somebody to clear that place up. I heard that you left that place because it was overloaded with spam. I don't intend a personal attack, but this wasn't a very good move. You're the only people who can rid the forum of spam. If you'd acted sooner, there'd have been less to clear up. Please. The forum is overflowing with spam, and nobody there can do anything about it. Can you help us? Thanks. - HM, the line must be drawn here.
 * We have 4 administrators on the forum (Sir Grodus, PorpleMontage, Xzelion and Phoenix Rider.) Out of these 4, only Sir Grodus come on a somewhat regular basis, all the others are inactive. Because of the lack of moderations, the forum have become the perfect breeding ground for petty flame-wars, spam and *shudder*, Spambots. The situation there is ridiculous.

Blitzwing
 * Considering that signatures make out 99% of a generic thread page, there is seriously something wrong in the forum's policies. - 16:31, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * The problem is: The phbb code only limit the number of characters for the signature, not the size. You can have an humongous image for your signature, but as long as the url code is short enough, it won't do anything.

Blitzwing
 * The size of the signatures is still one of the main reasons why I don't even look at the forums. If it's a major problem, maybe images could be banned from sigs altogether (I think it's possible). I have also seen solutions for sigpics on other (commercial) forum systems, which allow people only to upload a single sigpic, and allows to disable sigpics for certain user groups, including guests. It is just a big hassle to read a forum thread right now when the posts consists of "sometimes", followed by a sig of three full-page "page not found" images. - 16:57, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * Hmmm... That's an interessing idea, maybe you could message Steve and see if that system could be implemented into the forum code. I am not very knowledgable about this kind of thing.

Blitzwing, To be fair, only 3Dejong's signature is really huge, but then again, 3Dejong account 10% of the forum total post count -_-.

We should have more moderators, but not limit it to sysops/patrollers only. Admins aren't active on the boards and it wouldn't make sense to promote people on the wiki just so they can be forum moderators. Plus, if someone is more interested in the forum than the wiki and never contribute to the wiki, that would mean they would never become admins just because they weren't promoted here. And I do see some people who exclusively use our forums, but not our wiki. I think the same rule should apply to the chatroom. Isn't it possible to make people permanent ops in chat even if they aren't sysops/patrollers? Someone could be qualified to be a sysop on the wiki, but not in the chatroom (like Wayoshi) and some people could be great ops in chat but not great sysops/patrollers on the wiki. My main point is that the forum/chat admins should not be limited to sysops/patrollers on the wiki. We should get some non-wiki admins to cover the other two areas of MarioWiki as well. And I'm not saying that all sysops/patrollers aren't good at covering the other areas because some users like Xzelion are awesome at keeping control everywhere. And I nominate Gofer/Glowsquid/Blitzwing. 16:34, 16 December 2007 (EST)
 * Actually, I and Uniju are Operators on the chat even thought we are normal user elsewhere. I don't understand why we can't do the same for the forum.

Blitzwing, thanks.
 * I agree with Knife, there should be some forum admins that are not sysops/patrollers. However, there is currently no rule against it anyway, it just hasn't happened yet. Also, I rarely edit, but am almost always online on the forum... Although, I don't think I would be good enough to be a mod or something, I'm usually part of the problem. ^^;

I made a topic on the ops board about getting more forum mods over a month ago, but nothing really came of it. I'm as sick of the mess as everyone else is. -- Chris 02:51, 17 December 2007 (EST)


 * Mostly, we need more mods so that rules will be upheld and spambot posts deleted. We're getting a real influx of sexual type content from Moogle and Maka; but hopefully, a huge chat that was held last night between me, Maka, Moogle, DP and I will solve that problem. The forum is slowly deteriorating, and I want to save it.
 * Aside from the spam topics, could I ask for an example of a topic containing this crap? I'm going through the boards, trying to weed it all out, but....well, that's a lot of topics. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 20:03, 17 December 2007 (EST)
 * This thread and this other thread are very representative of the craps going on the forum.

Blitzwing
 * Dealt with. Thanks. If you feel there is a problem adn I haven't addressed it yet, please PM me on the forums. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 15:27, 18 December 2007 (EST)

Maybe you guys could vote on it? 21:17, 17 December 2007 (EST)
 * I think we shoud make a proposal when there is a disagreement, currently, there isn't.

Blitzwing

Yes, but it looks like we'll have to vote on forum admins and ops because it doesn't look like Steve's going to pick people out on his own. 16:47, 19 December 2007 (EST)
 * Ah, OK.

Blitzwing, althought I don't think we should let the community decide the next patrollers/admin/OP's.
 * This is ignoring that fact that Steve did, in fact, pick a new mod on his own. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 22:48, 19 December 2007 (EST)

Good point Blitzwing, we might make someone horrible into a mod. Maybe we should leave it to Steve to decide and present this issue to him instead of on the main page. 16:26, 20 December 2007 (EST)

Virtual Console Gift Exchange
I'm posting this here to try and attract attention. But go to the general discussion forum for more information and to sign up. -- Booster

Image Quality
I need help looking for these pics and couldn't find them anywhere but gamehiker and does anyone know where to find those good quality images like these besides gamehiker??

UnWatchedPages
How come non-sysops can't acess special:unwatchedpages?-- 12:26, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Maybe because it's among people's privacy what pages they watch and what not (Not that you can see who watches pages on that list, seems pretty useless). - 14:18, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * The concept behind watching a page is that you can watch an article develop, in good and bad ways. It also allows a person to watch for vandalism and keep track of their favorite articles. Having a list of which pages aren't watched tells Sysops which pages might need the most work or are easy vandalism targets, among other things. Also, I was unaware that it was a Sysops only page. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 20:05, 24 December 2007 (EST)

Ads
I know this has been brought up many times, but is there ANY way for Porplemontage to select which ads appear? I'm getting sick of a heavily cleavaged woman with her dress barely covering certain areas looking at me and saying "Date online without fear of getting rejected!" every time I log on.
 * If you tell Steve where a particular ad leads to, he can block it (I think). 06:10, 3 January 2008 (EST)
 * But a kid isnt gonna click an ad like that even if it was to block it what if their parent(s) see(s)
 * I know no kid would do that, but it might frighten away potential users, plus it's kinda annoying to see a sex model in my face when I'm online.
 * Last time there was an inappropriate ad, Steve had me get the link to where the ad leads too, and take a screenshot (i.e. Print Screen).
 * Thank you.
 * You just need the web address that appears on the bottom of the ad. -- 15:07, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * I just recently saw an ad for "truesexysingles.com" I followed the link to see that it was an Internet chat-dating website.

Hey!
Where is the Community Portal? The Community Portals always link to other external links and other websites.(Super F22 Pilot 03:01, 9 January 2008 (EST))
 * That's Links. For the Community, see under the community header or the Wiki forum. - 12:26, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Vandalism of the other Mario Wiki
A while ago at there has been some vandalism from a person claiming to protect the "real" mario wiki. I took a guess which Mario wiki he/she was talking about, this one. Please I know it is not every user on this Wiki's fault, but it ruins your reputation. And like you need protection from a small wiki like that. The user name of the person was Dummmmmmy. MarioGalaxy2433g5 18:55, 9 January 2008 (EST)
 * For one, Dummmmmmy is a known spammer. Besides, what do you wish us to do about it? Make a statement? Hax0r his intrawebs? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 20:28, 9 January 2008 (EST)
 * MG, I can tell you: you don't need to worry about anti-Mario Wikia stuff here. The only thing I've ever heard here was a joke about someone being in hiatus b/c he was working on your Wiki, and someone jokingly called him a traitor to many lolz.  That's it: there's nothing else I know of.  21:02, 9 January 2008 (EST)
 * Dummmmmmy is a spammer on the Userpedia, and quite a nuisance here. So, don't take it too harshly - he's a born irritator.


 * I just wanted this wiki as whole to know. Plus I forgot to mention one important thing, he moved the main page to "get a life Angela". For those who don't know, Angela is the co-founder of Wikia, and Dummmy just earned himself a one-way ticket to being blocked on all Wikia. What's his goal, to be blocked on every Wiki known to man. BTW: for any other users who think it is a threat to this wiki, you are wrong. MarioGalaxy2433g5 15:49, 10 January 2008 (EST)

He most likely didnt know anyone here knows about his vandalism of MarioWikia. He spamming Mariowikia to get them mad at us. Then someone from there might spam us and there is a giant spam war. DUmmmmmmmy is an AOL user so he cant be blocked and keeps doing more damage to them. they hate use andyou get the idea.


 * What does that mean by AOL user and can't be blocked? I hope a new Media Wiki upgrade happens soon. MarioGalaxy2433g5 16:13, 10 January 2008 (EST)

It means he gets different IPs

(Undent)Thankfully it has stopped. I wish he runs out of time to edit. However using the same user name as on this one was dumb. MarioGalaxy2433g5 16:34, 10 January 2008 (EST)


 * It seems however that there are more people than just him. I say this because there are many other users who pointed out there was another Mario Wiki except in the wrong places. MarioGalaxy2433g5 17:25, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * IMO it's good that there are two Mario Wikipedias so that readers can cross-reference. Neither of us can get everything.  20:56, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * We can't block his IP but his account is banned. - 08:28, 11 January 2008 (EST)


 * The founder already blocked the acount there but if he switches IPs he can create a new account with more m's in his name. Also from what I found out from Alphaclaw11's message I have just prevented a spam war. I am awesome! Sorry had to get that out. MarioGalaxy2433g5 14:54, 11 January 2008 (EST)

It's unlikely a spam war would have broken out; everyone here knows Dummmmmmmmy is a total knucklehead. I sure hope he stops spamming. It's not every day an ex-user spams another Mario wiki. o.o'


 * Like that Mario Wiki knows that. MarioGalaxy2433g5 16:41, 11 January 2008 (EST)


 * And wouldn't you know that they wouldn't know that either. MarioGalaxy2433g5 17:15, 11 January 2008 (EST)