MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/20



Bring back Weekly Polls
DON'T BRING BACK 4-8

We used 0to have weekly polls, and they are very good. We still have this page. But instead of doing only one poll, we will be doing 3 polls. The reason why is because let's say the poll is "What is the easiest stage in Platformer games", and you only own Spinoffs and RPGs, then you can't answer the poll, while if you have 3, then you can at least answer one.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|KS3}} Voting start: 25 February 2010, 23:00 Deadline: 4 March 2010, 23:00

Bring them back

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Per Proposal, I mean, They were funny :D.
 * 3) I am Zero! Although I don't know the reason why it was removed in the first place I will LOVE it if comes back, that what made the SMW fun that time and it will most likely still be fun if this pass (you notice I said love with all capitals, as most people know Zero NEVER used all capitals except for that one). Zero signing out.
 * 4) Per proposal.

Don't bring them back

 * 1) - Sorry, but no. Your proposal doesnt propose anything to make them better, they will fall into chaos again. They were rmeoved for a reason.
 * Per Tucayo.
 * 1) Per Tucayo.
 * 2) - Per Tucayo, you can't force someone to vote on a certain poll, people will vote on any poll they want. The more rules there are, the more they will get broken is my frame of mind - I'm afraid this rule falls right under that category.
 * 3) - Per Tucayo.
 * 4) - I see that you are still partly new. I think you want to see the main page as it was before all that got voted out, yet for good reasoning. The Main Page is better without this since it can be troublesome for updating. Per all.
 * 5) - Per Tuck. It was chaotic and the poll system on the main page looked the portal so informal.
 * 6) - Per Tucko.

Comments
It got removed because it was too bustling with activity ONLY with that Poll page. I may be fond of the Poll of the Day, but we don't get it our way all the time.

Maybe if the whole poll process was completely revamped, it would be easier to maintain. But I still think it should stay off the wiki for the time being. --
 * Per Stooby. WHats with all the "bring back" proposals... I think people are getting nostalgic

I am Zero! If this proposal does pass I think all the previous polls should be deleted and the page should start new and fresh. Zero signing out.

I like the poll, but 3 of them at once is way too much. – }}

Deciding Birdo's Sex
CALL FEMALE 0-1-15

We had 2 Proposals about deciding Birdo's Sex (here's one). This is an international wiki, not an American Wiki. In Japan, people call Birdo male, and in the US, people call Birdo female. I propose that we call Birdo he. Don't forget that multiple birdos appeared in crowds and in The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! In the Birdo (species) article, it says that it is common for male birdos to wear ties on top of their head. In Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga, Birdo attempts to be a girl, therefore Birdo is a man. And also per the old reasons.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|KS3}} Voting start: 26 February 2010, 23:00 Deadline: 5 March 2010, 23:00

Call Birdo it because of the old proposal

 * 1) If we are having such an argument decideng the sex, just call it it! it makes sense!

Just Call Birdo Female

 * 1) - She is a female, if "he" wants to be so, then we call Birdo a female. And no need to remove or move this proposal to the BJAODN, it is valid, I think.
 * 2) Per Tucayo.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - Per Tucayo and comment below.
 * 5) - No, Birdo always has been female in mmy opinion, for example if she is "male", why she acts like the girlfriend of Yoshi? Why she uses a ribbon? Why in Super Mario Advance she has feminine voice?, simply the fact that the SMB2 manual, among others called she male; we cannot say that is male, What present game call she male?, also per BabyLuigiOnFire in the comments.
 * 6) Ow come on!There's a lot of proofs which makes her female the ribbon,her acting in M&L:SSS,and like MATEOELBACAN said:her acting as Yoshi's girlfriend.
 * 7) Oh please. Per all. Oh yeah, aren't the option titles a little biased?
 * 8) Per all; this case REALLY needs to get closed here, right now.
 * 9) ...-_-' Per all.
 * 10) - Let me think about it... A regular man with a ribbon, a ring, a bow and a pink body?
 * 11) – Per all.
 * 12) - Per my opinion in the old Proposal.
 * 13) - Again? Per everyone.
 * 14) Birdo looks like a girl, acts a lot like a girl, dresses like a girl... wait, she IS a girl. And I'd hate to be called an "it" if people didn't know what my gender is. Nintendo would never make controversial stuff on purpose. The only quality of a man Birdo has is sounding like one.
 * 15) Read my comment below.

Comments
Another issue dealing with Birdo's gender? Look, Birdo wants to be treated as a female, as she states in her description, so we better call her a "she". Besides, we're dealing with a single Birdo, Birdo, the character who appears as playable in spin-offs. Besides, does she look ANYTHING like a man? She wears a large, red ribbon, has some lipstick, has feminine team names, wears rings, etc? Besides, Nintendo wouldn't make transsexual characters anyway, despite their craziness. They always make genders obvious. Why should Birdo be any different?
 * This is Birdo's Sex, not gender.
 * Sex and Gender are the same thing.
 * No, not necessarily.
 * It's not my our fault Nintendo didn't clear things up. The Japanese should start calling Birdo she if this should come up again.

On the other proposal we agreed that calling Birdo an it was discriminatory.

This looks like BJAODN material to me.

"This is an international wiki, not an American Wiki."

No, it's an English wiki (English as in the language, not the country). In all the English games, Birdo is a female. Infact, I think Japan is the only country that calls her a he.

What, this proposal again? :\ As I stated the last time this came up, calling a male-to-female transgender person "he" just because they were born male is offensive and nobody profits from it if we start doing that anyway. The gender issue is already being addressed in the article, I don't think there's any need to emphasise it like that. This has nothing to do with the internationality of the Wiki, but simply with what makes sense and what doesn't and what can be taken as offensive and what won't.--vellidragon 10:17, 26 February 2010 (EST)

I don't see the point in this proposal. Proposals made on this issue have turned out in favor of calling Birdo a female consistently in recent times.
 * Can we move this to BJAODN now? I mean, do we really need a whole proposal just for the gender of a character?
 * Um...this is the third one of that type...
 * @Super Mario Bros.: Doesn't this page overlook the no-sig policy??? Your comment says

Ugh, I wonder how did I make this proposal, but I regret it. Can someone help me move it to the BJAODN???
 * This is not BJAODN material. You can remove it if you want to.

If they call her "He" in japan,then we just add that in her gender in the infobox:(In japan:Male,other region female

I am Zero! I think there should be a fourth section for refering Birdo as it or she. Birdo is a species and not all of them are female, but to the point: I think if it refers to Birdo as Yoshi's girlfriend or the game makes it a 100% clear it's female then refer to it as "she", but if it refers to a random Birdo then refer to it as "it", if users aren't sure then they could have a discussion on the talk page to see if Birdo is she or it in that section of the article. I don't think they ever refer to Birdo as male but if it does in the future then refer to it as "he". Zero signing out.

Let me just say this. Birdo, specifically Catherine, is a male. But, she is a male in the role of a female. Drag queen, transgender, either way. In Japan Birdo is widely accepted as being male. And Yoshi is widely accepted as being male as well. However, Birdo is referred to as female in America for multiple reasons. Avoiding conservative beliefs, and going with what is simply proper. Regardless of whether Birdo were actually male or not doesn't matter, because she is appearing and acting as a female, therefore that is what you call her. Transgender people, or even a person in drag, is CORRECTLY referred to by what they appear to be, and in this case it is correct to refer to her casually as she and even a female. ForeverDaisy09 21:44, 4 March 2010 (EST)

Y'know, someone on an old proposal made the point that the only English-language game that refers to Birdo as male took place in a dream. :\
 * What, Super Mario Bros. 2 (The American one)???

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Remove Construction template after a certain amount of time
DELETED

Well, the long title says it all. Currently, there are 145 articles with the template on them. As you all know, construction templates are used to signify an article in poor shape, but is being worked on. But for how long do we need these templates, especially if nobody's working on them? Let me use Donkey Kong 64 as an example. The last edit that was made at expanding the article was on December 8, 2009. Since nearly three months have passed since that date, and nobody's working on it, don't you think this template should be removed? So, with my proposal, I want to have the construction template removed after a week.*

* Number up for debate.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Reversinator}} Voting start: March 5, 2010, 4:12 Deadline: March 12, 2010, 23:59

Remove template

 * 1) Per proposal.

Keep template

 * 1) – Sorry, but this seems like a pretty pointless proposal.
 * 2) A construction template is a construction template. We need construction templates to improve this wiki. All that you just need to do is notify the person who is working on adding info and ask them if they are still working. and Per Ralphfan.
 * 3) If there's an article that's incomplete and crappy, then a template is needed. How would someone react if they see the Luigi's Mansion (which I tend to finish soon) article and notice its waful shape. Per all.

Comments
We can't vote here if you don't propose a specific amount of time after which the templates will get removed. Of course we can discuss it, but you should at least propose one.
 * All right. I'd say a week, since that seems more than enough time to fix up an article.

If we remove it, it will look like it is finished, and it isn't.
 * Yes, we should at least replace it with a rewrite tag.

I have another suggestion considering the time. The template offers the possibility to enter a date, or a duration. How about we make it mandatory to set a deadline, a date when the construction status expires. After a construction template reaches that date, it can be removed. It would work, but it's also a little strict.

Another, less strict approach: We just use common sense and decide on a case to case basis. If there is a construction template on a page, and the person who placed it there hasn't edited the article for months, it is safe to assume the person stopped working, so the template can be removed. If there are some relatively fresh edits, the template stays. To help people with checking this, the person who places said template on a page should write something like "Construction template" into the edit summary, so you can instantly see who placed it on the article in the history.-
 * I like Edo's idea. And agree with Time Q, we should replace it with.

The proposal seems to irrelevant to me. You can actually remove the template if you see there has no progress in the article long enough. Also, the template has an option to set a date - or a deadline, but not many users tend to use... }}

TPP Archiving
KEEP AS IS 0-1-0-6

OK, I was looking at the list of TPPs and I found that the list was taking up about as much space as about two whole proposals and that is way too much space just based on TPPs IMO so I decided that I would make a proposal to shorten it in one of three other options. Now, I heard from that the rules say that TPPs aren't deleted off that list until the appropriate action has been taken (E.g. The articles have been merged) and I think that this idea is keeping it way too long, even if this quiets down another one is bound to arise because nobody is actually merging their proposal articles...

Anyhow, here are my three resolutions (and one non-resolution)
 * 1) Move all TPP results to "Mariowiki:Proposals/Talk Page Proposals" and leave them there for all of eternity so that people can easily see where the archives of their TPPs are and not clog up the proposals page (though eventually we'd have to archive that page too after 100 proposals * ). The proposals that have not passed/failed yet would stay in the TPP section of the proposals page but there would be a link off of there to the archives.
 * 2) The section resolution is to just remove the proposals when they pass and kick them off the proposals page so that they can't clog up space and this is the easiest of the resolutions. It will keep the list short and to the point and people will not be confused about what to do when they archive a TPP.
 * 3) The third (and final) resolution is to remove TPPs one week * after the proposals have passed whether or not the action has been taken so as to not leave them sitting for ever and ever. This will not clog up the page (though it will clog it up more than the second option would) and it would give proposers one week to merge their articles and then it is deleted off the page (though after it is deleted they can still merge, the reminder just won't be there). It gives users time to archive but keeps the TPP section short and simple.
 * 4) The fourth option (not resolution) is to do nothing, this is most definitely the easiest option but not the most productive...

* These numbers are up to debate in the comments section

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Marioguy1}} Voting Opens: March 2, 2010, 06:07 Deadline: March 9, 2010, 23:00

Kick off Immediately

 * 1) - Per my comments. If proposers cared they would do what needed. If they cant, they should ask an admin.

Do Nothing

 * 1) There are only 2 TPP whose articles aren't split/merged/deleted. and Per all.
 * 2) Per my comments below. And to the people that say that admins are "good" at merging/splitting, well some aren't. And sometimes the admins aren't usually on, so that's another problem.
 * 3) Per my comments below, and per Gamefreak75.
 * Per Gamefreak75. I don't see a problem with keeping those proposals in the list until they are put into effect, and it's a good reminder.
 * 1) - Per all.
 * 2) - If someone feels compelled to complain about the length of that list, he or she could merge some of the articles and reduce the list by themselves. If we remove them, they will just be forgotten. And so will they if we move them to some extra archive.

Comments
I'm gonna vote later because I'm currently tied between two of my options.
 * Hello, it's 30 minutes past voting time and you still haven't voted.

If we just remove them, then nobody will merge/split the said articles of the proposal and it will stay like that forever. If we put them all into an archive, then nobody will care about it and the same thing will happen. I could go with removing them after a week, but that doesn't seem long enough. Perhaps two weeks?
 * These numbers are up to debate in the comments section...

1 week seems enough for me. Why are they delayed anyways??? Its the proposer's responsibility to take action, if they don't we should just remove them, if you need an Admin help, just drop a line in any of their talks (mine if you want to).
 * The thing is, they don't take action. And if nobody takes action, and we just delete it, then the whole proposal would of been useless.
 * Well, then its their problem. Perhaps an user who took part can also take action.
 * In addition, that's exactly what happens on this proposals page.
 * Well, it shouldn't happen. We don't create proposals to waste people's time, we create them because we want to change something. And if the proposal doesn't take effect, then the whole thing was useless.

Well, if the proposer can't take the time out of their day to follow up with the proposal or can't be bothered to remember the due date, the proposal was a waste from the start.
 * You know, I'd like to make the proposals take effect, but I suck at merging/splitting.
 * Well then you should contact the proposers about it, that could help as a reminder for the...uhhh...less active.
 * Well, I guess I could.
 * There are only 4 proposals that are archived and the articles aren't merged/split/deleted/etc.
 * I agree with Reversinator. Maybe people know that something has to be merged and make a proposal. The proposal passes, but their is only one problem...they have no idea how they do it. If they were to merge, they have no idea on what the hell they're doing and can actually screw up an article and get blamed for "vandalization". And ridding of talk page proposals is a HUGE waste of time! You see, all these little things add up.

As I said before, in that case they should contact an admin, we are very happy to help.

Revesinator, your saying all this and you still haven't split the SSX on Tour article from the other article. Mine, well Baby Mario Bloops already made this proposal on merging all the SMRPG Mushrooms, and the SMRPG Mushrooms contain how many HP they heal.


 * One, you didn't see the fact that I suck at merging/splitting, and two, why are you talking about SMRPG mushrooms?


 * Has anyone bothered to read my comments? I, like Reversinator, suck at merging/splitting, so I am not even going to merge my proposal.

I think KS3 vote is not valid. It gives no reason as why to do nothing to them. What if in a future we have 10?
 * 2 weeks ago there were like 12 of them and why then didn't we make that proposal. Back then, I would be glad to vote support. But now there are only 3, and Redstar is busy merging info from Yellow Toad right now.
 * So? That doesnt mean we wont get another 12 in a future, and we wont be able to kick them, because of this proposal.
 * @GameFreak: I can guarantee you 900% that all admins can merge and split. And most of the time there is someone online. In the worst of cases, you can wait an hour or so to find one.

Anyone else thinks KS3 vote is not valid? @TimeQ: So, you agree that admins lack the basic skills of merging and splitting?
 * Yes, I agree that KS3's vote is invalid. It just refers to the current situation, which defeats the point of this proposal. As of your second question: I don't think there are "merging and splitting skills". It all depends on the topic. For example, I (and I'm a bureaucrat) could not have split or merged many of the recently passed proposals, simply because I'm not familiar with the topics in question (there's a lot of games I've never played).
 * So then it should be removed, I think. Well, in most of the cases it can be easily done by looking at the headers, still I think all admins may be capable of splitting an article.
 * Read my vote again. It says Per Gamefreak75.

Oh, so easy to per a vote...... Anyways.... again, Gamefreak, please answer, do not avoid the question, I bet in less than an hour, if you ask it, an admin will have done what needed. What can go wrong?


 * Well, you gotta take Time Q's comment to mind to, about the games played. Also, I'm pretty sure that not EVERY admin on the wiki can merge/split, but I could be wrong and we wouldn't want an admin's page to be cluttered up with headers saying ''Please merge'; or anything along those lines.
 * Thats what us admins are for, to serve the wiki. It is fine if we get our talks "cluttered" with lines saying "please merge!". And about the games, well, if I got asked, and weren't sure how to do it, I would ask someone else to help me.
 * Well Revesinator deleted the SSX on Tour section of Video Game References

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Final Vote
NO FINAL VOTE PROPOSALS 1-11

Recently, there have been a lot of changes to the voting system, and I feel that one more needs to be made. It seems that every couple months, a proposal is made about censoring the Bob Hoskins article or deciding Birdo's gender. There may be a 30-day minimum before a poll can be changed, but I feel more needs to be done. I would like to introduce a new system called final vote. They are just like other proposals, except for the following:
 * 1) Once a Final Vote proposal has been voted on, the decision can't be overturned (except by an Admin decision).
 * 2) A Final Vote proposal can only be made for a proposal that has already been made three times.
 * 3) Final Vote proposals are open for two weeks.
 * 4) Final Vote proposals are announced in the announcement bar on the Main Page.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Ralphfan}} Voting Opens: March 5, 2010, 2:30 GMT Deadline: March 12, 2010, 23:59

Support

 * 1) – Per above.

Oppose

 * 1) - I feel like this isn't a very good idea. Not exclusively to the Bob Hoskins or Birdo articles, but some decisions have indeed been overturned by a revisited proposal. One example was when I proposed to use present tense in all articles, which passed. Later, when looking through the archives, I found that Dom had also proposed the same thing months ago, but had been overruled. Some people can explain the essence and benefits of a proposal better, and convince others to agree with their opinions. The "Final Vote" system would deny users of a chance to propose subjects that could be potentially helpful to the wiki.
 * 2) Per Marcelagus.
 * 3) Right now, what may be considered right may be considered wrong in the future. This proposal won't allow people to change what can be potential mistakes.
 * 4) - Per all.
 * 5) - The intention is good, but a rule like that would probably cause more chaos than being actually helpful. What if something is decided with a final vote, but it proves to be horribly wrong after some years (you can't predict such consequences)? Would make the reversion too complicated.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) - Per all.
 * 11) Well, this may have good intentions, but think ahead, what is "right" now might be wrong in the future, and say I have been planing a beneficial proposal, and I can't propose it, that would be simply chaotic.

Comments
Having some sort of blanket policy like this is a recipe for disaster. If we were going to do something about the annoying, recurring issues, we'd have to be specific, like back when we had a rule against Banjo and Conker proposals (but we could try to be a bit less obtuse about it this time). The Birdo and Bob Hoskins issues both boil down to censorship and squeamishness, which are fundamentally against what a factual wiki stands for, and so we could probably disallow them for that reason (with a little preliminary paperwork to make it legit). Canonicity and organization issues like Banjo and Conker are a bit harder to deal with: if you make too many policies Admin-only, people will cry foul, no matter how good the intentions may be. -

I think the best choice would be to decide on a case-by-case basis. For instance, if there isn't already, we could add a rule on MOS saying something along the lines that quotes shouldn't be censored because this is an encyclopedia, and such. --
 * Maybe admins can declare a proposal disallowed? Not a three-proposal basis but an admins only type of thing so the admins discuss it on the boards and then say so here (on the talk page).
 * That's pretty much Rule 14: "If the Sysops deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time." We don't use it very often because we don't want to be power-abusers, and yanking a proposal because it's constant re-emergence is annoying might look dubious to naysayers (even if it was doomed and everyone unanimously hated it anyway). -

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Recreate Snufit Ball
DELETED

Seeing as this proposal tried to merge it, but failed. Later, it was deleted, and countless proposals trying to bring it back failed. I propose that we bring it back, because it affects gameplay, like Pauline's Items and Cheese. This other proposal states so. So I propose that we create the Snufit Ball article.

{{Scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|KS3}} Voting start: March 15 2010, 3:00 Deadline: March 22 2010, 24:00

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Comments
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