MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
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New features
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Removals
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Remove Zelda Wiki as an interwiki link
Before I continue, please note that I am not trying to insult anyone or ask to unlink from Zelda Wiki's articles entirely. I'm just proposing to remove  as an interwiki link, and am curious to hear what the others think of this idea. If the consensus is oppose, like my proposal on allowing link to Fandom wikis, then at least we know, and it could perhaps set a precedent (like my aforementioned proposal set the precedent of a case-by-case basis for possible follow-up proposals).

While it is true that many of us here do not like Zelda Wiki, I feel that, regardless of opinion, it is redundant to have a specific interwiki link for ZW, primarily because Wikia/Fandom itself has an interwiki link, and their specific wikis can be linked to from the Wikia template. Zelda Wiki has been on Fandom for three years ever since the Gamepedia acquisition, and are just as much owned by them as the other wikis on Fandom. The only difference is that Zelda Wiki is in NIWA (they pass themselves off as independent when all of us know that's not true), and NIWA itself originated from Zelda Wiki if you look into the history.

However, at the same time I have a few reserves about them being removed as an interwiki link. My main reserve is over the NIWA template, which would need to be edited to have ZW specifically change to Fandom. Another thing is that Mario Wiki is a part of NIWA (might not be on the best of terms at this point), and there are editors here who edit on other wikis, especially WiKirby and Nookipedia, so having Zelda Wiki as an interwiki link would be a way to acknowledge that it is still a member (and the original founding member) of NIWA.

What would be an ideal way to acknowledge that Zelda Wiki is a part of NIWA, which Mario Wiki is in, but that Zelda Wiki is no more "independent" than other wikis on Fandom itself? If this proposal does not pass, I still wonder how we can address such a distinction. Also, like I said, Zelda Wiki has been owned by Fandom for a few years.

Proposer: (banned) Deadline: April 28, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) If we have to start somewhere, let's call a spade a spade.
 * 2) I agree. I really don't care if it's "a lot of work", because if that mattered we'd be over-turning every unfinished proposal for being "a lot of work".
 * 3) I would refrain from voting as my obvious bias in the situation could cause conflict-of-interest, but using  for what is now a wikia subsidiary only makes sense.

Oppose

 * 1) I really don't see any benefit to this. The whole thing is a lot of work for what will be visually and functionally be the same, and seems more like it's just trying to make a statement than anything. Similarly, you could argue that we don't need Wikipedia interlinks because of Template:Wp (or vice-versa), but the amount of effort involved in swapping things out is very high compared to the benefit which is practically zero. Also, what if ZeldaWiki ends up moving off of Wikia in the future? Unlikely, admittedly, but then we'd have to go back and reverse all the changes instead of an easy swap of just changing the destination of all ZeldaWiki links.
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time, doing this wouldn't really result in anything.
 * 3) This is generally more of a NIWA responsibility than MarioWiki, so I think this proposal falls out of scope. I do not think it'll be a lot of work as claimed, however, as I believe a bot or something similar can take care of any repetitive tasks like this. As for the possibility of readding links, it'll help if we could instead redirect links, but this requires finding a new Wiki for the Legend of Zelda to associate anyway, which this proposal doesn't concern with.
 * 4) Per Waluigi Time and Bazooka Mario. I agree that the argument it would be a lot of work is fairly weak due to access to bots, but I still feel that it is unnecessary work that is more symbolic than actually having real benefit to the wiki.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) This removal is disruptive, not only on MarioWiki, but also for the rest of the NIWA, whom hasn't even started on any proposal regarding Zelda Wiki within NIWA. It would mean one wiki doesn't link to a particular wiki member while it is still a member of that alliance.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per Waluigi Time and Bazooka Mario. This proposal seems to me out of scope and more a statement than anything else.
 * 9) - Per all

Comments
I did try to make this proposal not look like a statement, although it might have inevitably creeped its way in. Part of why I did the proposal is to see others' thoughts on this idea. Results May Vary (talk) 15:06, April 21, 2022 (EDT)

Admittedly (talking to Bazooka), I wanted to make a proposal to replace all the ZW interwiki links with Zelda Dungeon Wiki interwiki links, although ZW is a better wiki name as the latter attaches their fansite name. If anything I hoped ZD Wiki would inherit the Zeldapedia name at this point. Results May Vary (talk) 07:45, April 22, 2022 (EDT)

@Somethingone: The issue isn't that it's a lot of work in and of itself, (and that may not even be the case, I may have overestimated the situation and/or underestimated bot capabilities here) the issue is that there's essentially nothing to gain from doing this. More importantly it could actively make things more difficult in the long run if the ZeldaWiki situation ever changes. -- 16:24, April 22, 2022 (EDT)

@PanchamBro: The proposal is not disruptive to the Mario Wiki as I did ask an administrator for permission to create this proposal. There are those who support this and then those who oppose it. Results May Vary (talk) 16:53, April 22, 2022 (EDT)

I was not going to comment further on this proposal, but as the proposer obviously cannot, I feel like someone has to. First, let me give a very brief recap on the history of the Zelda Wiki situation just to make sure that we are all aware of its position over time. On April 24, 2005, Zelda Wiki opened. On February 14, 2010, the Nintendo Independent Wiki Alliance (NIWA) was jointly launched by Bulbapedia, Zelda Wiki, and the Super Mario Wiki, with the express mission statement to support wikis independent of large corporate wiki groups (Wikia named chief among them, but mention of them or corporate wikis is now deleted). On March 8, 2017, Zelda Wiki moved to Gamepedia, a large corporate wiki group then-owned by Amazon/Twitch. On December 12, 2018, 's media assets, including Gamepedia, were acquired by (formerly Wikia, Inc.), meaning that Zelda Wiki would become part of the very structure that NIWA openly defied. On June 15, 2019, Zeldapedia made the historic motion to merge its community/wiki with its longtime rival, Zelda Wiki, freezing Zeldapedia as an archive site. As of April 2022, this is where things stand (I could go on, but those events are open secrets and proposal-relevant). For disclosure, this is not a pro-ZD/TW proposal; to be clear, from my understanding, this proposal is not about removing Zelda Wiki's status or even all that significant, but rather an extremely minimal, simple acknowledgement among editors of the reality that things have changed for a while and are poised to stay that way. Frankly, the word I would use to sum up the opposing arguments is, to be blunt, hollow. I will paraphrase the sentiments raised so far and try to explain why each of them so far has rung hollow to me. "It's a lot of work." Not really. Even if it was, not only do you have bot assistance (as mentioned later), but that has literally never stopped us before. We would never get anything done with that excuse, much less something that should be as superficially under-the-hood as this, nor would we have half the wiki we do today, if that. "This is more of a symbolic gesture that won't change much." So? I admit that the action that the proposal is asking for is a remarkably small one that should not change the outward presentation to readers at the moment, but it would be a tiny step in that direction should bigger measures be taken in the future. A late baby step is better than actual years of doing nothing about it. "We'd need a new wiki to fill the  void." Since when was that necessary? It is not as though we lack alternatives that could be used in place one day. That could reasonably be a concern for a future, more in-depth proposal, rather than something that is required to be immediately decided on the spot, if needed. "NIWA should make this proposal, and if ZW leaves Wikia, we'd have to reverse course." I must say this is plain wishful thinking. Discussions on ZW's NIWA status and the integrity of its continued membership have existed since the Gamepedia move, and have noticeably stonewalled in public. If ZW is perfectly content where they are with no signs of changing or fixing themselves for us, it is well within the capability of the Super Mario Wiki, which might I add is also a co-founding NIWA member, to set an example by giving a little push to get the ball rolling if it should so choose. Let me conclude by stating that I have little reason to put my hope in projects that have compromised their own principles. I do, however, believe in the Super Mario Wiki community. I urge the opposition to rethink their stance, or at least, by all means, please start to think about putting other ideas out there towards addressing what is now a half-decade elephant-in-the-room. Thank you for your consideration. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:00, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * Effort aside (again, the argument seems to be misunderstood, but I concede that it's not very relevant), I just don't see how this is supposed to provide any benefit other than sending a message to Zelda Wiki/the rest of NIWA. Nothing changes beyond code being replaced with other code that does the exact same thing. If anything, it'll actively hinder us down the line if we need to change things, whether that's Zelda Wiki moving back off of Wikia (more realistically being forked off, a wiki is never really able to leave Wikia, unfortunately) or being replaced entirely with another independent wiki. You say it's unlikely, and it probably is - but it's still a possibility and we have to be practical. Even as a small step towards NIWA doing anything about Zelda Wiki, I really don't think this is it. Are they really going to care whether our code is a direct link or a Wikia template, moreso than any arguments that may have been made about it? Doubtful. I don't care for the Zelda Wiki situation either, but this just seems pointless. -- 19:25, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants or merge kart/glider variants: Take 2
Okay, so I'm gonna try re-visiting this again. Having discussed it a bit more with others and going over things in my head, I would like to try this idea again. I would like to start with Mario Kart Tour content simply because it is a more glaring inconsistency between having the character alternates merged with their normal selves while kart and glider variants get their own articles, despite all three sharing the same differences. If we deal with this first, perhaps that could open options to other topics with similar situations to Tour. So I would like to represent the similar options along with a few additional options:
 * Splitting character variants: This would give character alternates their own articles, making them consistent with kart and glider variants. However, this does boarder on a more convoluted topic regarding characters with palette swaps (mainly Yoshis, Shy Guys and the Roving Racers) and is a much bigger topic overall that probably requires even more discussion. So I likely wouldn't recommend this option.
 * Merging kart/glider variants to their base articles: We would merge kart/glider variants to their base articles, covering them in a similar way to how we cover character variants, making the karts and gliders more consistent with characters, as well as how we handle other palette swaps, as karts such as the Blue Biddybuggy, Sky-Blue B Dasher Mk. 2 and Green Cheep Charger all share the same special skill as their parent karts, but are just different colors. However, doing this would also mean we'd likely have to consider similar approaches to several karts in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart DS.
 * Merging character/kart/glider variants into lists: This one is similar to the above option, but rather than merging them to their base karts/gliders, we'd merge karts and gliders and split character variants into lists based on what they're variants of. Consider this a similar idea to how we list off track appearances across tours; listing each variant of a topic (example: List of Mario variants in Mario Kart Tour or List of B Dasher variants in Mario Kart Tour etc). This would provide information in a similar way to how the individual articles cover these topics while also cutting down on how many individual articles we have for reskinned karts and slightly reducing the Mario Kart Tour sections for characters with a lot of alts (such as Mario and Peach). However, the one thing I noticed about this and that would be topics with only one or two alternates so this one might require more discussion too.
 * Do nothing: We don't do anything and I hit the drawing board again to see if I can find other options or iron out the problems in the above ideas.

All this considered, I still feel we can cover Tour's variants in a more consistent way. I'm open to further suggestions or opinions, but for now, these are my ideas and possible solutions.

Proposer: Deadline: May 4, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge kart/glider variants to their parent articles

 * 1) I feel this would be the most consistent option and has less repercussions (again, unless I'm missing something). Even if most of the variants look different, they are still considered palette swaps of base karts/gliders.

Merge kart/glider variants and split character variants into list articles

 * 1) Secondary option. I feel this could work if we made it similar to our "List of Track tour appearances", but gear them towards the information for each variant of a topic.

Do nothing

 * 1) I feel like the karts and gliders are different enough to be their own articles. They also have different sizes which are never noted in-game, which makes the hitboxes bigger. Minor detail, but I think this is still important. The main problem I have with this proposal are the merges. The Pumpkin Kart is a variant of the Apple Kart, but it doesn't share that many similarities. Some of the variants aren't just palette swaps, they're items with different designs which bears some resemblance to the original. I think the current way of handling these is okay and won't cause too many issues. You could also argue what is a variant of what if they are in lists. The list also features a lot of sections, and pages like these can become really long (B Dasher MK.2, the Hanufadas, etc.). The character variants though could be split to their own list articles though, so I think you could add a new Split character variants to their own list articles option.

Comments
The recolored karts in Double Dash!! and DS shouldn't be anything to worry about, as all such karts have different stats from their base karts. ShootingStar7X (talk) 16:15, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * That is primarily what I think too, but it was brought up in the past so I thought it was worth mentioning, mainly because Tour doesn't follow the same stat rules that traditional MK titles do, but they still feature differences between karts through skills, rarity and favorite/favored courses, which are kinda like Tour's equivalent to "stat differences". If it poses no issue in the future, then it's nothing to worry about, but I brought it up just in case it could be a factor.

While I agree with the need to be consistent with the Characters, Karts and Gliders, but regarding the Karts and Gliders that are brand new to Tour, it becomes hard to pinpoint which of the articles need to be merged with which ones. For instance, this wiki regards Butterfly Wings as a variant of Butterfly Sunset purely because Butterfly Sunset was released first, yet the name Butterfly Wings sounds more like that's actually the original Glider while the name Butterfly Sunset sounds like a variant of the Butterfly Wings (we know that variants can appear before the original: Dasher II came out way before Cucumber, for instance). Additionally, does the Dozer Dasher count as a bulldozer-attachment variant of the Firefly (which in turn is a yellow variant of Dragonfly), or is it its own thing? Arend (talk) 16:53, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * I did talk about this on Discord and while it's hard to "officially" pinpoint some of the karts and gliders introduced in Tour, I feel the steps are to look at theming. Yes, the Dasher II came out before the Cucumber, but the Cucumber is an established kart from before Tour so I feel that's easy to explain. As for the Butterfly Wings, well sure it was introduced second, but it represents the most basic theme of the idea: butterfly wings. The Butterfly Sunset feels like a sunset themed version of the Butterfly Wings. The way I see it, we can either deduce by basic theming, though that would boarder on speculation and can't really help if a themed variant debuts before any knowledge of a "base" version or we can treat the first debuting variant as the base, even if some cases (i.e. the Butterfly Wings or the Sushi Racer) feel obvious on which is the base. As for the Dozer Dasher versus the Dragonfly, I personally don't think the Dozer Dasher is a variant of the Dragonfly. It has a similar design, sure, but a distinct difference in what it's based on. Looking at almost every kart variant there is, the only differences rest in their color scheme or their wheels. Despite the similarities, the Dozer Dasher has a more distinct visual difference from the Dragonfly in the fact that it's based on a bulldozer rather than a tractor and has a scoop on the front instead of a plow on the back. That being said, I don't believe the Dozer Dasher is intended to be a variant of the Dragonfly, more or less being it's own thing with the Dragonfly's design in mind. But if that boarders on speculation, then I can reason with treating it as a variant of the Dragonfly.

What would an example of an entry in a list article be? 19:12, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * I can definitely make one to give an idea of what I’m thinking of. I’m kind of thinking of using what the articles currently have and making them more of sections rather than full on articles.
 * @Bazooka Mario: Here's an example of what I had planned for list articles. It basically does merge all the information present on the articles themselves, which I think could help avoid large paragraphs on the main pages.
 * I see, and yeah this does seem very feasible. Though I didn't expect it to look the way it is. I was kind of expecting more like a compact, but useful enemy table from the bestiary pages. 21:13, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

There's obviously a certain risk when covering a mobile game, especially now with recolor variants popping up, and on a wiki that cover everything and anything Mario. You want to cover any nook and cranny (no pun intended) as possible, but at the same time containing information so that it doesn't overflow. I haven't yet decided, but merging the kart and glider variants has me conflicted. If we merge those variants together, the page will become so long that if Mario Kart Tour continues on for a another couple years editing these pages could be a nightmare, especially to mobile editors that have to add this information in.

And that's the risk of covering a mobile game: they throw literally everyone at you and you have to cover whatever they throw, resulting in large content of bloat. The navbox for Mario Kart Tour perfectly demonstrates this problem; so much of the navbox content is filled with vehicle parts, courses, and drivers, not to mention the large chunk dedicated for "Notable landmarks and areas".

I believe in the long-term we should consider splitting content as to be easier for the editors to distribute information and for the reader to gain a perfect understanding of that content. It's also very important that we balance what information we want on these kart/glider pages, so that it may not become too overbloated. I could also suggest using the Cargo extension for MarioWiki, though I feel like using the extension may become a headache for editors that had not gained experience with using Cargo (like I did with Nookipedia). 21:08, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.