MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

Create a page for Luigi's Mansion (series)
I am honestly surprised that this page does not exist, as I believe it once did. In short, there are three installments to this series: Luigi's Mansion, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, and Luigi's Mansion Arcade. Though it might seem to some that only three games won't be enough to warrant a series page, keep in mind the DK series and the Mario Baseball'' series pages. There is plenty of information for this page, as we have a main protagonist (Luigi) and many other supporting characters and reoccurring enemies such as King Boo and Boos. It only seems logical to create a page for a series within the Mario franchise that features two games for consoles and one arcade game.

Proposer: Deadline: January 9, 2018 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) Good Idea! :P
 * 3) - A series page did exist before, but it was deleted back in 2011. That was before the arcade title, however, so I don't see a reason to not make one now.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal. Since other similar series pages exist, I don't see an issue with creating this one.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) OH YEAH! I KNEW this was supposed to be a thing. As a person whose favorite video-game character is the man in green, Mr. Number Two, I think this proposal is just great. After all, don't we hear people talk about the Luigi's Mansion games as a series? I think we're on a roll, boys. Per proposal. This thing should have been created when Dark Moon was released.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) If we have articles on series with only two games, then clearly this subject merits an article. Per all.
 * 10) Per all. It may seem strange to have an article on a two-game series. However, this one has three.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all. It'd be weird pre-Arcade game, but three seems enough that the article could be useful.
 * 13) There's an article for DK (series), which only consists of two games, so having one for a three game series seems more than logical. Per all.
 * 14) Per all.

Comments
Is there a policy page/section about what qualifies as a series and allow for a series article? -- 15:00, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * Not finding one, but I think the unspoken rule is about three games? I remember reading that somewhere. 15:13, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * Thought there would be so that way proposals don't need to be created. Would the admins be in favor of a policy to bypass the need for a proposal? I wouldn't know how to define the prerequisites. -- 17:38, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * This page was previously deleted, so I understand the need for this proposal. But, imo, a policy for it doesn't seem necessary. As long as there is more than one game in the same series and a decent amount of information can be written, then proposals shouldn't be necessary either. Something can probably be added to Glossary though. 17:50, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * Just thought of something else. Series vs. Franchise. We got both those types of pages that are similar-ish in concept. -- 23:24, 2 January 2018 (EST)

2011 was even before Dark Moon was released so I see why the original page was deleted.
 * Whoop, forgot when Dark Moon was released. That makes the original page even more pointless :P 15:19, 2 January 2018 (EST)

Lcrossmk8: I do not think you can just support this proposal just because you like Luigi. Please, look rule #4.-- 16:40, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * I'm not supporting the proposal just because I like Luigi. I agree with all the other reasons the proposal is on here, and that's why I voted for it. 16:42, 2 January 2018 (EST)
 * You just say in your reason for voting: "As a person whose favorite video-game character is the man in green, Mr. Number Two, I think this proposal is just great." This is not a valid reason to support a proposal. Rule #4 says: "irrelevant quips or comments are just as invalid as providing no reason at all. But now, I saw you put "Per proposal." so your vote is now valid."-- 16:50, 2 January 2018 (EST)

Removals
None at the moment.

Changes
None at the moment.

What is Alleyway?
Once upon a time, a proposal deemed that Alleyway was irrelevant to the Super Mario Wiki, and should therefore be deleted... except that was four years ago, and the article still remains. Now it just sits in limbo or something, and that's not satisfying to me. Frankly, I consider this to be a clear-cut case: the game itself shows Mario to be the player character (as well as the life counter). As also seen in the box cover, he's the one piloting the paddle. The rest of the game isn't bereft of Mario images either, as every single bonus stage features something from the franchise to destroy. And "it doesn't play like a Mario game" isn't particularly valid in a franchise that spans so many different genres, and especially not when the wiki already covers Pinball and Golf (really, if you're against Alleyway on the wiki, you should also explain what you think about this game). Heck, Mario's Picross shows that the franchise is no stranger to seemingly esoteric playstyles. How can Mario be cameoing in this game when he is the one and only playable character?

With all of this in mind, there are two options: either Alleyway is properly a member of the Mario franchise, in which case the article would be kept, or it only features cameos from the franchise, in which case the article would be merged to List of Mario references in Nintendo video games.

Proposer: Deadline: January 11, 2018, 23:59 GMT

It is a part of the franchise (and therefore, keep the article)

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Having played Alleyway, I noticed there are too many Mario things for it to not be a Mario game. Mario paddles the paddles, there are brick structures in the shape of various Mario characters. So, yeah, per proposal.
 * 3) This is even more clear than Tetris DS. Per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) was wrong.
 * 6) Mario is literally the playable character it's more then a simple cameo.
 * 7) It's clearly a guest appearance at the very least, because not only is Mario the sole playable character, there are also countless patterns that pertain to Mario. Wildgoosespeeder's vote comment is also a meaningless technicality (no offense), so per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Keep it
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per all.  Besides, the official Nintendo website qualifies it as a Mario game.
 * 14) Definitely more than a guest appearance or cameo, per all.
 * 15) Per all.
 * 16) If the official Nintendo website classifies it as a Mario game, then we should take it for its word.

It only counts as a cameo (and therefore, merge the page to List of Mario references in Nintendo video games)

 * 1) This option is a bit misleading because if you read the proposal, this option is for merging, not deleting. Merge with references, just like every other time I voted in similar proposals. It feels weird to give it the same attention as say Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins because of the core gameplay. It's a, not its own game series. Some videos why Mario is in these games:   Alleyway is noteworthy, but not as a separate article.

Comments
Since I've been looking back at that proposal, might as well start a tangentially related discussion: what's the difference between Pushmo and Rhythm Heaven Megamix? 21:55, 4 January 2018 (EST)

@Wildgoosespeeder: I literally make it a point in the proposal to talk about how the gameplay means nothing. 22:02, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Also, in a series like Mario, "canon" means nothing either. This isn't a franchise like Zelda or Metroid where some things are "canon" and others aren't. The rule of making Mario games is "We have a bunch of concepts and characters, let's do something fun with them." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Case in point: that's literally policy. 22:12, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Gameplay should mean everything to article creation because simply slapping Mario on any game doesn't make it a Mario game right away. Let's debate the game's merits, not arbitrary rules you define. That's my argument with every similar proposal I voted on. -- 22:24, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * So Mario's Picross isn't a Mario game? 22:26, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Let's focus on Alleyway instead of changing the subject. -- 22:27, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * It's entirely relevant. You're talking about how gameplay defines a Mario game, and I'm providing an example of a game that clearly does not fit the standard Mario mold. 22:29, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * I insist we keep talking about Alleyway, since this is a proposal about it. If you created a proposal to talk about all the games that are questionable relating to policy and List of Mario references in Nintendo video games, then we can discuss that game further. If you have no other arguments for my oppose vote, then we are done here. -- 22:35, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * For one thing, you certainly seemed fine discussing other games, but that's neither here nor there. What's most important is that you're adamant about the core gameplay of the Mario franchise, but you're completely unwilling to discuss it. This is relevant when you're using it as a reason in your vote. Don't just brush it aside. 22:38, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * I realized that being so easily derailed didn't help my argument for my oppose vote last time. My mistake. This time, I'll try to be more focused on the proposal's topic of What is Alleyway, and for future proposals in general. -- 22:48, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Please don't brush aside my query and tell me how the "core gameplay" denies Alleyway from being allowed an article while other games are perfectly fine. 22:50, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * The first game was, which was a hit that inspired , which are very common. We got , , and for just noteworthy ones and also come to mind. There's many more. I've come across a lot of Breakout clone  on Steam and the Google Play store. Also, I said earlier that  simply slapping Mario on any game doesn't make it a Mario game right away. Also, the videos in my vote show how Mario ended up in games like that. As far as I am concerned, it's a reference, probably to have driven the sale of Alleyway (brand recognition) more than to be considered a Mario game. It's not an uncommon business tactic either. -- 23:03, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Why does it matter how Mario ended up in the game? How does the historical context change anything about the game itself? 23:20, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * You are only looking at his physical appearance in the game. I am looking at more than that, such as gameplay, historical significance, etc. to decide if the game deserves an article or be merged with that one page. -- 23:25, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Again, why does that matter? 23:25, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Those factors all contributed to the game's production and market performance. -- 23:37, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * ...Why is that relevant when it comes to this matter? 23:38, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * I already told you, but you refuse to accept my answer. -- 23:41, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * You haven't actually explained why the game's context matters in the slightest. 23:42, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * Yes I have. Reread my comments. -- 23:48, 4 January 2018 (EST)
 * "Because it's a clone." So? How about how Donkey Kong relates to Popeye and how Super Mario Bros. relates to Pac-Land? "Breakout clone" is a bit of a misnomer, as it's a genre. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Popeye, that is based on the love triangle trope. We got two men in love with a woman: The brutish fiend (Bluto and Donkey Kong) vs. the hero (Popeye and Mario) and their love interest (Olive and Pauline). So what you are saying because the themes are similar, that means one is a clone of another? No. Breakout clone is not a genre. The genre you are looking for is brick breaker, or something like that. That would be like calling or  a genre for all s. It's just become a term synonymous with that genre, so I can understand the confusion. -- 00:37, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * "A Breakout Clone is a sub-class of the 'ball-and-bat' genre" according to this. Making it less of a "clone" deal and more of a specific type of game, which there's only so much you can do with, although the aforementioned Arkanoid proved that it really can be more than a clone, what with fighting a giant holographic red Moai with the same name as Homer Simpson's "catchphrase." So yes, it's still a misleading term, and not a good reason to say it doesn't belong here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * The proposer is not wanting to delete the entire contents of the article for the oppose option. Just merge with List of Mario references in Nintendo video games. No, don't delete contents of the article. Just merge contents and make the title a redirect or something. -- 01:29, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Except there'd be no neat way to include all of the information on the page into the article. There would definitely be something lost in the transition. 01:32, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * We cover where the bonus levels are featuring Mario references, we got pictures (incomplete), we got Mario getting into the spaceship, the cover artwork, and the Wikipedia link. What else is there to cover? Everything else is just filler not related to Mario. -- 01:35, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I mean, look at any independent page, then look at the sections, and you'll see plenty that isn't there, like an infobox that consolidates information, an intro, subpages, critical reception and media sections, and I could go on if you'd like. 11:05, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * But it's not a reference. As shown on the cover art, Mario's piloting the ship. ie, it's a similar situation to Famicom Grand Prix II: 3D Hot Rally, where in-game, Mario isn't seen within the vehicle, but he officially is there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:36, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I think I already covered that part of the argument above why it is a reference. Also, we are sticking strictly with Alleyway this time. No other games we are currently covering on the wiki should be discussed at this time. -- 01:38, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Stop trying to railroad the conversation. Articles on the wiki serve as examples of what to do. Don't treat this as if we're arguing in a vacuum. And no, all you've done is talk about how Mario made lots of miscellaneous appearances. That does not demonstrate how the sole playable character is only making a cameo. 01:42, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Don't "we're sticking solely with Alleyway" me, I'm showing an example of the same situation to support my point, while your saying that I shouldn't comes off as whining about how I have supporting evidence and you don't. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2018 (EST)


 * Careful, Doc. Keep it civil.
 * 09:48, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * is right. I never said or implied anything of the sort ., it's clear you don't want to see my arguments as supporting evidence for Mario being a cameo. However, I see your point that because there is physical appearance of the man himself, that means it is good enough justification for being a separate article. I just don't think that is good enough. I also see this argument going nowhere. Best to stop this because we have made our points. -- 10:52, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * No, seriously, you're missing a step. "Mario made a lot of random appearances" is not logically followed by "therefore, he is making a cameo in this game". I've read your argument plenty enough; don't just accuse me of ignoring them. If context mattered as much as you're saying, Super Mario Bros. 2 wouldn't even be on this wiki. 11:01, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Nope, never implied you were ignoring my comments. I'm saying you disagree with me, implying you didn't ignore my comments. Anyways, what missing step are you talking about? -- 11:05, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * You're supposed to be telling me that. The premise that you've set up isn't immediately demonstrative of the argument you're trying to make, and that's why I've been saying that you've yet to explain to me how one necessarily leads to the latter. I'll stand by Super Mario Bros. 2 as a counterexample. Also, "you don't want to see my arguments" implies that I'm ignoring them, but regardless. 11:12, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I guess my phrasing didn't translate well, not to another language, but the intentions behind it because I really didn't intend any malice. I just should have said you disagreed with me. As for the missing step, I thought it would have been obvious that the random appearances implies the developers of those games wanted Mario in their games as a cameo, likely to help drive sales, which I said earlier. It's not like they were building the game with Mario in mind but rather using Mario for brand recognition. -- 11:31, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Just to make sure we're on the same page, how do you define a "cameo"? Because the one and only playable character would never be a cameo for me no matter how you defined it. 11:46, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Referential, that's how I define cameo. Alleyway is referencing the Mario (series), which is what List of Mario references in Nintendo video games is. -- 12:13, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Why would the company want to add Mario to a game when (if it counts as a Mario game) it is their first Mario game? And should Wario's Woods not be counted in the Wario series? Should we keep Mario Paint? DO NOT say that these aren't what we should talk about. They were made by the same company that made this game, only later did they made the others and they all were even made before they made Paper Mario. 11:49, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * The first problem I see is "Mario game". We are just declaring it is a Mario game right off the bat without analyzing it first. I don't think this was the original intent behind Alleyway. It's a game that features Mario, but not a "Mario game" per se. I guess what I am saying is what defines a "Mario game" is how much does it influence the game's core mechanics? Alleyway, Mario is there and he breaks brick patterns in bonus rounds that represent things found in Super Mario Bros.. Not very Mario like. Since my more focused arguments of staying strictly with Alleyway are pretty much done and I feel I got my point across better than the last proposal, Mario Paint, it's the overall presentation and impact it had on future games, such as Super Mario Maker, Mario Artist, and WarioWare: D.I.Y.. When was the last time you saw an Alleyway reference in a later title? Wario's Woods, I feel that is an argument for a future proposal, similar to that of Yoshi's Cookie and Yoshi. -- 12:13, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * that's like saying Mario's Early Years isn't a mario game because nobody talks about it 12:18, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * True. This is why I wanted to stay strictly with Alleyway to begin with. Not everything will fit in neat categories. Some games blur the line. In the case of Alleyway, when you take a deeper look, it's not a "Mario game" but rather "a game that features Mario" or just references things from Super Mario Bros. and should be merged. -- 12:22, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Wait, you can't just introduce a definition like that but only apply it selectively. That's completely arbitrary. 12:34, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Just like it's arbitrary to give some games article treatment and others to be put in a list? -- 12:37, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * (I am put something in s for a good reason.) Anyways. Why would the company add these "cameos" to this game when it was 3 years before Mario Paint? 12:31, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I don't understand how Mario Paint is relevant to this particular question. I already said the cameos are put in because it was likely for brand recognition to drive sales, maybe through association. -- 12:36, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Why would they do that when the company hasn't done anything Mario related before? And Mario Paint is Intelligent Systems' first game mentioned on its article, which Alleyway would be before it on the same list. 12:42, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * Edit: Wait there is Tennis, but that's the only game before Alleyway to have Mario (and Tennis was their first game ever). But, why would they have Mario as the only playable character when they haven't before? 12:46, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * At the time, Mario was the biggest icon in gaming. It makes business sense to ask permission from Nintendo to use Mario's likeness to help drive sales to an otherwise likely obscure title by an otherwise likely obscure company. We now know Intelligent Systems as the masterminds behind the Paper Mario (series) and is a loved company for it, but it wasn't like that pre-Paper Mario, or at least I don't think so. I know that was the case for HAL Laboratory before Super Smash Bros.. -- 12:51, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * You can clearly see that just by even looking at all Mario games before Paper Mario (whether or not including this). 13:01, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I Binged (same as Googled, but with Bing) for cameo and got some definitions.
 * a piece of jewelry, typically oval in shape, consisting of a portrait in profile carved in relief on a background of a different color.
 * "a short descriptive literary sketch that neatly encapsulates someone or something"
 * "a small character part in a play or movie, played by a distinguished actor or a celebrity"
 * It is the last definition that I want to highlight. It works very well with what we have. Mario is not a "small character" in this game. 13:44, 5 January 2018 (EST)
 * I really mean reference since I am looking to merge, not delete (see my vote reason), the supposed reference in Alleyway with List of Mario references in Nintendo video games. That's how I am arguing my point across. I guess I confused myself yet again, as mentioned to when he was asking how I was defining cameo. But then again, why does the option say cameo to begin with? I think that help to confuse the terms even more. -- 13:51, 5 January 2018 (EST)

@Wildgoosespeeder: Please stop being so stubborn. This conversation was very unpleasant to read. 19:15, 6 January 2018 (EST)
 * I think it was just the way and I were debating. I think we both lost our cool instead of keeping a level head. I've noticed this before. It's not unique to this proposal. Hopefully, this situation won't happen again. It wasn't too pleasant to respond though. Replies were flying. All because I disagreed with the proposal. -- 19:40, 6 January 2018 (EST)