MarioWiki:Proposals

Establish a guideline for citing archived web pages
I've made a previous proposal about this in the past, but it was unnecessarily complicated. To put this as simply as possible, many online web pages are very likely to be taken down at some point, and many already have; a user may come across an online source which is no longer on the live web, and only exists on an online, the largest of which is the Wayback Machine.

To establish consistency when citing pages from these web archives, a guideline should be listed on Citations, below the template for citing live websites. This is what I believe is the best style to follow for such citations: cite the original, unmodified link to a page as usual, then include a statement in parentheses that lists the page as being archived, with a link to where the web archive hosts the page, a timestamp, and finally, the web archive which was sourced. Below is a template of such a citation (the link to the archived page would be accessed by the word "Archived"):

"Author Name (January 1, 2000). . Publisher. Retrieved January 1, 2023. ( June 1, 2022, 00:00:01 UTC via Web Archive.)"

As an example, the list of rumors and urban legends about Mario already uses this style for the majority of its web page citations. Here is an example from that page:

"Nintendo (1985). Super Mario Bros. Instruction Booklet. Retrieved July 8, 2021. (Archived March 9, 2021, 10:01:59 UTC via Wayback Machine.)"

A note should also be added to MarioWiki:Citations that the precise timestamp for a page from the Wayback Machine, the most common web archive source, can be found by examining the date in the URL; for the above example, 20210309100159 can be read as 2021-03-09 10:01:59, and should be formatted as March 9, 2021, 10:01:59 UTC.

To clarify the proposal, this should not be considered a strict rule that must be followed, nor a necessity for every citation of a web page, but simply as a guideline to follow in case a page has already been taken down, or if a link to an archived version of a page is being added to a citation.

Proposer: Deadline: June 1, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per everyone, as users might think they’re going into an active link when really they are led into a 404’d link
 * 4) Per all. Preservation is extremely important, and it'd seriously help if we pointed to archives when applicable.
 * 5) This is a great way to combat link rot and I strongly encourage more regular usage of archived pages regardless.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Yes, please.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) per all
 * 11) let’s git archivin’ now
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
I am sick of these “active” links that are really dead or 404 links. This proposal acknowledges said statement of mine. 17:53, May 18, 2023 (EDT)

@ThePowerPlayer Did you give this a 2-week deadline? 'Cause that's for talk page proposals only, normal proposals get one week and so this proposal should end today. SmokedChili (talk) 07:51, May 24, 2023 (EDT)
 * You're very wrong. To quote rule 3, "except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks". Spectrogram (talk) 07:59, May 24, 2023 (EDT)
 * Right, that exception escaped my notice. SmokedChili (talk) 08:41, May 24, 2023 (EDT)

Something worth noting: In the case of Flipnote Hatena stuff specifically, the Internet Archive will not do, as they're blacklisted from the Wayback Machine. Instead, however, someone made an external archive of Flipnote Hatena flipnotes called the Sudomemo archive. We've used it before on the Yoichi Kotabe article for his Mario 25th Anniversary flipnote, and nobody seems to object to that one; thusly, should we include something about "if trying to link an old Flipnote Studio flipnote, you may also use the Sudomemo archive"? 13:57, May 25, 2023 (EDT)
 * If it works too well, maybe we could retrieve all the other Mario 25th featured flipnotes thatwere from mario25th,nintendo,com. Including America, Japan, Europe, and Staff Flipnotes afaik. 17:46, May 25, 2023 (EDT)

I feel the need to point out that I have heard tell that certain influential corporate entities are currently making efforts to have the web archive taken down for whatever selfish reasons, so I would caution against full reliance on it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:35, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * Can you point to a source for that claim? I don't see any alarming notice on the archive.org site or their blog. Either way, a good measure against complete loss of information is saving it on other digital archives, such as archive.today. What I also did and will continue doing is take screenshots of relevant web pages and upload them onto the wiki outright. 14:52, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * There is a whole moola about Internet Archive.. 10:00, May 31, 2023 (EDT)

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc.
"Truck Moving cargo trucks appear on GCN Mushroom Bridge. Stationary cargo trucks appear on the road in GCN Mushroom Bridge R, GCN Mushroom Bridge R/T, New York Minute T, New York Minute 4T, and Bangkok Rush; they also appear on the sidelines in Tokyo Blur 3, Tokyo Blur 4, New York Minute 3, New York Minute B, Los Angeles Laps, Los Angeles Laps 3, Bangkok Rush, and Bangkok Rush 2, as well as in these courses' R, T, and R/T variants where applicable."

The number of courses listed in this paragraph was getting so wild that I had to condense it with the "as well as in these courses' variants" statement. Problem is, this sacrifices specificity. The proposal aims to introduce a guideline whereby lists of this ilk are more digestibly integrated in prose writing. To this end, I propose two options, each based on a format already used on some articles; the preferred format will be applied when the amount of courses listed is 7 or higher.

Option 1: Bullet-point lists

The subject's general description for a particular game is followed by a bulleted list of courses in said game, like so: Slippa

Slippas appear in fifteen levels:


 * Jungle Jaunt
 * Freezing Fun
 * Simian Swing
 * Deck Trek
 * Tire Trail
 * Riggin' Rumble
 * Tricky Temple
 * Snake Charmer's Challenge
 * Mountain Mayhem
 * Spiky Tire Trail
 * Kong Krazy
 * Construction Site Fight
 * Fast Barrel Blast
 * Skyscraper Caper
 * Oil Drum Slum

If a subject displays different traits across one game, such as having different colours or behaviours, and these traits are described on one article as opposed to being split between articles (e.g. Bandits/Coin Bandits in Yoshi's Island), each course in the list is followed in brackets by whatever variations of this enemy appear in the course. In other words, if a subject has traits X, Y, and Z across levels A, B, C, D etc. in a game, then the level list has the following form:
 * Level A (X variation)
 * Level B (Y variation)
 * Level C (X variation, Z variation)
 * Level D (X variation, Y variation) and so on, and so forth.

Option 2: Courses show up in-line when hovering/tapping a certain phrase

When the seventh course is reached in a list, the courses listed from that point on are being integrated in a piece of hoverable text.

Maw-Ray

They are found in Piranha Plant Cove, Piranha Plant Cove 2, Piranha Plant Cove 3, GCN Daisy Cruiser,.

Notice that the phrase "and some of their variants" has a dashed underline. Putting your cursor over it (on desktop) or tapping it (on mobile) reveals these course variants.

If the number of courses slated to be included in hoverable text is too small (e.g. the seventh course is the only one left to mention), previous courses in the list can be integrated in the hoverable text at the editor's discretion.

~

Note: Neither guideline will apply where a subject's course appearances are described individually, like in the Skewer article.

Proposer: Deadline: June 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

 * 1) Not the biggest fan of using hover text for large swaths of important information,  I do agree with reformatting the big sentences though, and I am voting for this potion since it's
 * 2) mobile users won't be able to use the second one.
 * 3) I don't think it's very necessary to standardize this format, but organization and consistency are nice anyways. I personally like lists, and, as stated above, they don't affect mobile users, so this choice makes sense.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
I do not see the point in standardizing it, really Spectrogram (talk) 14:09, May 25, 2023 (EDT)
 * If you don't see the point, then I suppose you could vote for the "It doesn't matter" option. Or is that not what that's for? 10:51, May 26, 2023 (EDT)
 * Why should I? Abstaining is a better option when the proposal doesn't ruin anything if it passes. Spectrogram (talk) 10:58, May 26, 2023 (EDT)

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles
This proposal is similar to this one about Conker the Squirrel and this one about Professor Elvin Gadd, except this time, the targets are the many Sonic the Hedgehog characters who appear in the Mario & Sonic games. In these games, the characters are almost always referred to by their shortened names (e.g. Sonic and Tails), but for some strange reason, the wiki article titles don't reflect this (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog and Miles "Tails" Prower). This is also true of Sonic's Super Smash Bros. appearances, which simply call him "Sonic". Speaking of which, I'm lumping Fox McCloud into this proposal too for the same reason: the Smash games always just call him Fox.

Pages that will be renamed by this proposal:
 * Fox McCloud -> Fox
 * Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic
 * Miles "Tails" Prower -> Tails
 * Knuckles the Echidna -> Knuckles
 * Amy Rose -> Amy
 * Shadow the Hedgehog -> Shadow (character)
 * Vector the Crocodile -> Vector
 * Blaze the Cat -> Blaze
 * Silver the Hedgehog -> Silver
 * Rouge the Bat -> Rouge
 * Espio the Chameleon -> Espio
 * Jet the Hawk -> Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)
 * Jet -> Jet (Mario Tennis: Power Tour)
 * Wave the Swallow -> Wave
 * E-123 Omega -> Omega
 * Sticks the Badger -> Sticks
 * Cream the Rabbit -> Cream (character)
 * Charmy Bee -> Charmy
 * Big the Cat -> Big (character)

Redirects using the full names will be kept, of course.

Proposer: Deadline: June 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) The only part of this we'd hold contention with has been addressed, and after reviewing the list again, these all make sense to us. Now, admittedly, we didn't go scouring the list of every character article on the wiki, so there might be a few we're missing; but we can definitely address those as the crop up, and these are the vast majority of the ones we can think of anyways.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) P e r       p r o p o s a l.
 * 7) Per. Also, characters who have name like Jimmy Thang are using their common nicks (Jimmy T instead of Jimmy Thang). We also have Penny instead of Penny Crygor (and Dr. Crygor not Doctor Crygor), so I will whollily and happily support short nicks names for third partiers.

Oppose

 * 1) There are some crossover characters with shortened names that overlap with Mario subjects. And using the series name to disambiguate just emphasizes how non-Mario they are. If Sonic the Hedgehog is going to be moved to Sonic, then shouldn't Jet the Hawk be ? Actually, if there's proof of their full names somewhere in a Mario crossover like in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl trophies, then their page names should remain the same. The Sonic logo in Smash is proof that Sonic is Sonic the Hedgehog from Mario's perspective, so Sonic's name has to stay and every other crossover character whose full name was stated.

Comments
Jet from Mario Tennis should be prioritised over the Sonic character as he is a Mario character. 13:40, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * Seconding this. We should probably make "Jet (MT:PT)" be just "Jet", and "Jet the Hawk" can be "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)". We'd be glad to support if that was addressed, but otherwise... Wow, that's a potential bit of Wiki Jank waiting to be discovered 10-odd years from now. ;P 13:54, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * I thought of that, but I wasn't sure what identifier to use for Jet the Hawk since he's made multiple appearances (and for some reason I thought there was already a case of a crossover character with priority over a Mario character, but looking at the articles we have I guess I was remembering wrong). I'll settle for "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)" though as it's consistent with Slime (Dragon Quest) (as well as the former Steve (Minecraft) and Roy (Fire Emblem) articles). I've changed the proposal. 14:04, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * Works for us! 14:15, May 28, 2023 (EDT)

Don't you think "Shadow (character)" might be confusing due to the existence of Shadow the Dog, a WarioWare character? 18:57, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * I doubt it, since that article isn't using the title Shadow. If it was then the identifier would need to be more specific, but as it stands, I think Shadow (character) works fine. Compare Leo and Leo Luster, where no identifier for Leo works fine because the other Leo uses a full name. It's not a perfect comparison since in Shadow's case we need an identifier because of the SMRPG enemy but it gets the point across. (Speaking of which, I noticed that Ninja is another crossover character sharing a name with an SMRPG enemy, except they share naming priority. Maybe there's a case to move the current Shadow article to "Shadow (enemy)"?) 19:15, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler No offence, but did you even read the proposal before opposing? I am suggesting to move Jet the Hawk to Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog). There's precedent for this with articles like Slime (Dragon Quest) and Ring (Sonic the Hedgehog). And there's also precedent for moving full names to shortened versions, like Conker the Squirrel, Professor Elvin Gadd, Princess Rosalina, and the Donkey Kong Country animal friends. I'm not saying that the full names don't exist or that we should remove all mention of them, just that we should move the article titles to the more common names (we aren't about to move Mario to Mario Mario or Bowser to King Bowser Koopa). 05:39, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Realised I misunderstood your comment about Jet, but I still disagree because the franchise is called Sonic the Hedgehog, it's just the character I'm suggesting to move to his more common name in the games he crossed over with Mario in. 05:44, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Slime (Dragon Quest) and Roy (Fire Emblem) had their series title because they were only known by one name. Conker, according to the proposal that moved him barely had any reference to officially being called "Conker the Squirrel" in his own series. Sonic's full name, Sonic the Hedgehog is quite famous as that is the title of his series and he is called Sonic the Hedgehog in just about every media he's in. And while the character select screen in Smash simply calls him Sonic, his trophy is called Sonic the Hedgehog. So really, Sonic should not be moved. And neither should crossover characters with well known full names. "Big (character)" is too generic. "Big the Cat" tells us that the page is about the Sonic character. The crossover page names are fine with their well known names. We don't have to limit them to what Mario would call them. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:36, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Seeing as we're only covering the characters as they appear in Mario media, I think it makes perfect sense to go with the significantly more commonly used names in said media. It's the same principle as why we can't use quotes or artwork for crossover characters that aren't from their crossover appearances, and why the naming policy says we should ignore name changes of crossover characters unless these changes appear in Mario media. 14:46, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * And if these full names have appeared in Mario crossover media and they have the common name as a subject in the main Mario series, it would be better to disambiguate by using the full name heard in the crossover instead of using parentheticals. If we ever get an article about a species of, the Smash character shouldn't be or . He should be Fox McCloud, as his last name was confirmed in Smash through his Melee trophy and in Solid Snake's codec conversation. And Sonic is quite commonly known as Sonic the Hedgehog. If a character's full name is not stated in Mario crossovers, sure, I'd support them being called only by what Mario knows them as. But popular characters that have their most well known names said in the crossover should not be moved to generic names. That's why the proposal to move the Koopalings to their first names failed, because Palutena referred to them by their full names in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. And besides, we might as well move Princess Peach and Princess Daisy to simply Peach and Daisy if we're going to just go by common names. This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:33, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Honestly, I've considered moving Peach and Daisy to their shortened names (Daisy especially since she's rarely ever called "Princess Daisy") and I still wholeheartedly support that Koopalings proposal, but those are separate discussions. "This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic" - indeed, that's my exact goal, and I really don't see the issue with it. Shortening the names to be more accurate to what they're usually called doesn't make them "generic names". Once again, I'm not saying the full names don't exist, just that we should use the more common names, which we have precedent for. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, seeing as this argument is starting to go in circles. 21:16, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Well, in my opinion, full names (while omitting middlenames) are better titles for wiki pages than just first names, especially on a wiki that has pages on everything that appears in a multimedia franchise including crossover characters. And yeah, calling Fox McCloud simply "Fox" does make the name generic, especially when editors of a Mario Wiki wouldn't immediately get that it's the Star Fox character until they see the infobox picture on his page. And besides, it's better for SEO to use the best known names that aren't just one word. Mario could stay the same because he's the trope-namer for the One Mario Limit and his last name also being Mario was debated for years. Bowser can keep his name because despite there being a Doug Bowser running Nintendo, has anyone actually called him "Bowser Koopa?" Fox McCloud in Super Smash Bros. media has the Melee trophy, Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance confirming his name. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

Lol, this is starting to look more like a colab'd professorial thesis (whatever that is) than the comments section of an unremarkable proposal on a wiki about a series of children's video games, do you see how much this sentence is sticking out? BOWSER... (talk) 16:54, June 1, 2023 (EDT)
 * Trust me, this is nothing out of the ordinary. 17:06, June 1, 2023 (EDT)
 * Wowy, I guess I'm pretty new around here. BOWSER... (talk) 17:26, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

Split the remaining Mario Party and Mario Party 2 minigame variants from each other
Building off of a discussion and proposal from the Balloon Burst talk page, I'm proposing we aim to split off the rest of the mini-games shared between Mario Party and Mario Party 2. While many of those games play almost identically between both games, many of them still feature various rule differences. Few examples:


 * Hot Rope Jump in the first game is a survival minigame where everyone must jump 20 times (40 in Mini-Game Island). Anyone who hits the rope loses and pays the people who didn't hit the rope money. In Mario Party 2, it becomes a last man standing game.
 * Crane Game in the first game gives the solo player only one chance to grab something or someone, with the money they earn varying based on who or what they catch. In Mario Party 2, the solo player must grab everyone and is given the option to grab clocks to extend the timer.
 * Grab Bag in the original has everyone stealing each other's money. In Mario Party 2, it's a battle mini-game where everyone grabs pre-disposed Mushrooms and one lucky target gets a golden one worth three points and the aim is to just have the most mushrooms.

Those are just a few examples. Several other games feature differences too. And while there is the argument that "they still play the same at the core", a few things to counter that are the fact that both Mario Party: The Top 100 and Mario Party Superstars actively acknowledge the different versions of each minigame, regardless of whether or not they had differing names or not. The Top 100 featured the MP2 version of Handcar Havoc while Superstars featured the MP version. And this extends to games with differing names, such as Hexagon Heat and Desert Dash to Mushroom Mix-Up and Dungeon Dash. And finally, this would be consistent with several other minigames; the aformentioned ones that share the same basic concept, but have different names to the notable examples of Bowser's Bigger Blast and Beach Volleyball, which appear similar to identical to Bowser's Big Blast and Beach Volley Folly. All that being said, I don't think it's that unreasonable to split the rest of these minigames into their own articles.

As for the naming convention, I simply say we use the game as the identifier (Crane Game (Mario Party) to Crane Game (Mario Party 2)). It may not be how we covered Balloon Burst, mainly because many of the minigames share the same catagory. Some could follow similar suits (Crazy Cutters (4-Player) to Crazy Cutters (Battle)), but I feel the titles work best. If anyone has any further thoughts or suggestions, let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: June 9, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.