User talk:Stumpers

Welcome to my talk page. If you wish to contact me, this is the best way. Every twenty headings, I'll archive, but feel free to revive old conversations if you feel an issue needs to be explored more. Or, if you want to drop me a line, that's great, too. I love mail like... well, it's always special.

Wario Land 4
None of the other Wario Land games are referred to as Warioland. Why change 4?

RE: *looks sheepish*
Lol. It took me forever to switch from User: to to  : curse you autopilot. Anyway, I don't mind switching your sig all the time, it makes me feel useful. Plus, I'm just anal about that sorta thing, and that's sheepish-ness worthy... Not that that makes much sense in its own right... Hmm... Anyway, see you around! - 23:32, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

Handeling the 'other series' merging.
Hi Stumpers! Because the Garlic Man's proposal will be gone soon (or it might even be gone now, actually), we need a new place to discuss this before you make another proposal about it. It's already clear that we're going to be merging the minor articles, and not deleting them. I just think everyone needs to clear up what exactly should be affected by the merge first, though. Everyone seems fine with the playable 3rd party/SSB characters keeping their articles, but small cameos and stage elements should merge into the 'series pages'. I also think that everyone fine with merging the Items into the series pages, too. However I think we should get rid of the 'List of Trophies in SSBB' page and merge each trophy into their proper series page. Also, when do you plan on making the proposal? -Moonshine

"Mario Super Sluggers - Gals Supporters" topic
Hey, Stumpers! :) M. C. here; see about checking this new topic on my talk page when you have the chance! --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! 11:05, 5 September 2008 (EDT) User Page | Talk Page -- We're supporting the Mario series' gals full force on this game!

Merge
Y'know, It would make alot of sense to merge the articles you were talking about merging. Seriously, Dry Bowser can easily be redirected to a section on the Bowser Article. Shadow Mario doesn't need to be merged with Bowser Jr., but he needs to be put into an article about Mario's fakes and identity thieves.

Well, why don't you put a notice on the page that says that that character has appeared in a game at the same time the other has.

So what if this wiki will have about 2000 less articles if all that stuff was merged. It would still be one of the most successful. I understand your logic though, which leads me to this question: Can I make a proposal? Get back to me on that as soon as possible. --R.O.B 128 22:06, 5 September 2008 (EDT)

Thanks. How does this sound:

Deletion/merging of the non Mario Series articles: These articles are not needed, at all. Seriously, you do know that there are wikis on series like Kirby and Star Fox.

Articles that are not needed:
 * Slippy Toad
 * Gordo
 * All of the SSB character's special moves and Final Smashes.
 * Arwing

Articles needed to be merged:
 * Sonic series characters
 * SSB series characters (Except for R.O.B. He's good)

The idea of giving information about another series is stupid.

That is my proposal. What do you think? --R.O.B 128 16:39, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

This wiki is very successful, but very selfish in terms of articles. You do know the purpose of this Mario based Wiki is to give info about Mario

No Sonic or other series character was ever in the Mario series; Who's the dolt who wrote that crap? As bueracrat of Kirby and Star Fox wikis, I find this disturbing. Just letting you know.

If I hadn't used the word stupid, you'd still think it would fail.--R.O.B 128 15:16, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

I think your proposal will work. I you have knowledge on the Star Fox, please join the wiki about it. --☆R.O.B 128☆ 19:50, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

Guess what.
Guess who's a sysop at Kirby Wiki now. ;) Also, did you ever make that proposal concerning the merging of the Sonic & other series pages? -Moonshine

Are you talking to me, or this guy? ☆R.O.B 128☆ 16:50, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

Why me?
Birdoshi is the one that lied. Why do you do this to me?

C'mon, I didn't mean what I said. Give me a break. I'll delete the whole argument on the Birdo Talk page now.--☆R.O.B 128☆ 19:56, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

Can user get in troble if they remove warnings? I remember seeing three warnings that Stoob gave to R.O.B 128 earlyer and I think ROB 128 erased them.


 * Thank God you showed up to stop it all; I tried to, (and obviously Grapes did too, kudos to her), but ROB128 wouldn't listen. That's why it's awesome you're a Sysop. 21:07, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

R.O.B.: On this Wiki, what you type automatically is considered what you mean, so be careful, ok? You're not banned, so don't worry and just be more considerate in the future. Grapes: There's no policy that says that it's illegal, but regardless he now has an official warning from me, so I think the issue is settled. To everybody here: thanks for trying to resolve the problem amongst yourselves. When it comes to warnings the most effective in ending arguments are those that come from sysops - if you get one of us there sooner rather than later many harsh words and bad feelings can be averted. I hope that everyone can keep being fellow editors and no one feels hated on. 21:43, 8 September 2008 (EDT)

^ o ^ Hi!! & thanks for the advice! ^ ______________ ^


 * Of course you're a good Sysop! Yeah, taking sides is hard...I generally don't do it unless I feel one user is being considerably more abusive than the other(s). I've done it on Userpedia, and it's not easy. College is awesome! How's it going for you? 16:56, 9 September 2008 (EDT)


 * I just saw your message. I'm sorry you miss your home and video games. :( But, the dorm life must be cool, right? 03:58, 13 September 2008 (EDT)


 * It sounds nice. :) The college I go to doesn't have dorms. :\ So you're going home this weekend? Awesome. :) Hope you enjoy your time home. 21:51, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * You're welcome. :) 22:17, 16 September 2008 (EDT)

Hello
I'm still getting the hang of this wiki and making new friends, so I figured why not try to be friends with you! Anyway, I also have a question while I'm talking to you. Right now I am opposing Bowser becoming a FA. Time Q has started a removal of oppose votes. Can I vote for removal of other oppose votes even if I'm opposing? The reason I want to do this is because if those unspecific votes are removed, people will focua on my oppose vote more (I think). Anyway, can I do this or is there a rule against it?

Okay, I have another question. From the games Super Mario Bros. up until Super Mario 64, should the Princess be called Toadstool or Peach in the section? I looked to see if there was a proposal about this, but I couldn't find one. Maybe I overlooked it, though.

RE: Mario & Luigi's Parents
Thanks for telling me about the developments; I'm glad things are moving forward with Canonicity and that I was of some assistance in the matter. - 22:45, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * You didn't mention that before, but I'm grateful you did now. If you don't mind me saying, I think it's a bad idea. True, it will quell discussions over the varying laws of physics between things like Paper Mario and the more conventional genres, but even those are vastly differentiated. For example, Super Mario Bros. and Super Princess Peach look and feel nothing alike, even though they're both 2D Platformers; and if they're not considered part of the same genre, that just highlights the fact that many people are gonna get confused over the divisions. Not everyone has the patience (and/or common sense) to actually go and read the policy pages, after all. Plus, it goes against the "all games are created equal" motif I thought we adapted as of late, or is that still part of the discussions as well? I feel bad for being so adamant in my views (especially since you seem willing to bend over backwards developing ways everyone can read what they want in the way they want); but all-in-all, honesty is the best policy. - 22:49, 17 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I still have some concerns, but I shall wait until seeing your mock-up before passing any more judgement. Talk to you later! - 22:23, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

Re: Special Moves Merge
The idea was just one of many ideas I threw into the room to test out the reaction of the userbase. I know that several people didn't like the big focus on SSB on the wiki, but others are SSB fanboys, and I wanted to see who are more. I wanted to see how far I could go decreasing the focus. This level seems to get the biggest acceptance. - 14:38, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

Need help please help Iggykoopa hey how do you start a proposal?

Re: We need your input.
Hey Stumpers, thanks for letting me know. I feel kind of guilty now for not caring about the forum at all. :P Thanks for taking your time to tell me.

First off, I agree with all points made in the thread. I long since have pursued the word "canon" because it is based on nothing more than fan view. Games that are technically spin-off but have a notable story, like Mario Pinball Land, often created problems in the Biography/spin-off division. For one thing, if the section is labelled "Biography" for Mario, Yoshi's Island should come first. If it is labelled "Game Appearances", Donkey Kong should come first. I wouldn't want a "Biography" to start with Donkey Kong and later get to Yoshi's Island, thus going back in time. I agree with how the sources are intended to be sorted in point 4, just don't call it a biography. ;)

I agree on the outline you draw for the proposal. At least one opposer would have to provide serious reasons for supporting the system as it is currently. Other than that, I know that the proposal system has the sort of "flaw" which lets everybody go "per Mr. X" and don't provide a reason themselves. We shouldn't change that, but it points out that supporters without any reasoning would be the least of our problem.

Concerning your second addendum to the proposal, I would favour a little bar to chronologically browse the games. However, I don't see this working out with Mario Party 8 and Mario Strikers Charged Football concerning their different American and European release dates, conflicts might arouse there. Also, blatant ports such as Super Mario Advance would be included here, that would make an overview problematic. But what's a port and what a full remake, like Super Mario 64 DS? Adding it to the chronology bar would not make any difference for Bowser or Peach, but be very important for Yoshi, as he was changed from a cameo character to a protagonist. The status of such games should be cleared. The bar would take a lot of space on a page of a character who only appeared in 1 or 2 games. I can see this bar being used, but only when the conflict potential is worked against in the beginning. Otherwise, it wouldn't serve its purpose.

For all the rest, I fully agree with you and am waiting for the proposal to come! - 10:58, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

I didn't get what you are asking me in the last sentence. - 12:24, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm fine with that. - 15:09, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

RE:SSB moves
I'm game to helping you but I wasn't sure where to right my name down. MC Hammer  Bro.  15:36, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Special Moves Merge Proposal

 * This was my first time dealing with a proposal, so I guess it was dumb of me to make article changes until the proposal was accepted. Also, about your question on if I moved the images, I did since it was only Lucario and Meta Knight that I worked on. I left the other articles alone. Anyway, next time, I'll remember to NOT do anything until a specific proposal is accepted.  17:54, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Taking Credit

 * Sorry to tell you this, but you're the only member that can edit User:Stumpers/Test (no one else can edit it but you). If you have the chance however, just add the template below right next to the Lucario and Meta Knight sections for me.     19:09, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I should also mention that some articles are locked, so we're not able to edit or add ANYTHING to them. From what I've seen, the Mario article is protected from editing, so there's no way we can merge his special moves onto his main article unless it's an administrator that's doing the edits. Just wanted to remind you about that flaw on your mission to merge special moves.  19:21, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Proposal Assistance

 * Since your proposal is accepted, I'll help you on your work whenever possible. I did get punished for making a minor article a while back, but I've learned my lesson after that time.  Hopefully, my assistance will help speed up your process of merging special moves.  19:49, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You're very welcome. Glad to be of assistance.  18:55, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

Articles that I've merged Special Moves to

 * Lucario
 * Meta Knight
 * Wario
 * Sonic
 * Bowser
 * Mewtwo (R.O.B 128 was also working on it.)
 * Ganondorf
 * Mr. Game & Watch
 * Donkey Kong
 * Link
 * Toon Link
 * Wolf
 * Ike
 * Marth
 * Falco
 * Captain Falcon
 * Jigglypuff
 * Pikachu
 * Pichu
 * Pok&
 * Ice Climbers
 * Olimar
 * Sheik
 * Diddy Kong
 * Pit
 * Ness
 * Lucas
 * Samus
 * Zero Suit Samus

13:31, 13 November 2008 (EST)

All Special Moves Merged

 * I just want to let you know that pretty much all the special moves have been merged with the fighter articles now. 13:35, 13 November 2008 (EST)
 * You're very welcome. Glad to be of assistance for you.  17:15, 13 November 2008 (EST)

Unused Images Issue

 * I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a reason why I removed the hidden boxes on Peach's gallery section of her article. If the images are hidden, then the Mario Wiki classifies them as being unused.  21:58, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
 * To tell you the truth, I liked the idea of hiding the image galleries. However, when I found out that some of the hidden images were being shown on the Unused Images page, I had to make all those galleries 100% visible again.  That way, the images wouldn't be classified as unused images.  22:40, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

ssb
What do I do for Jump punch and fire ball (in luigi's article)? MC Hammer  Bro.  19:01, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Re: Template
Well, there appears to be some sort of glitch with the, seeing as that there is no To separate the template from the actual text. Check the Solid Snake article again. I have all of the templates right-aligned. If you think that it's too asymmetrical, then I'll completely get rid of the template. 21:35, 7 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, when the images are shrunk down, large tacky borders engulf it. :-\ Yeah, the white space is a bit pesky too. Perhaps it'd be best just to delete the template altogether. It was a good idea for when the articles were separate, but it's a little harder to utilize since they got merged. I'll start removing the template from the pages. :) 23:17, 7 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Same here. When you think about it, it'd be like having multiple level-infoboxes in world articles; it just doesn't make sense. Hey, no problem; I like doing little edits. ;) 00:55, 8 October 2008 (EDT)


 * You're edits are awesome. Really, the only massive expansions I've ever done was on Yoshi (series) and Donkey Kong Hockey; you do expansions on almost every article you edit! :D Kudos. 01:06, 8 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Aye, Yoshi (series) is now featured. It makes it on the main page on November 1st. =3 That's probably the most effort I've ever put into an article. Ah, same here. I'm trying to take care of all of the NSMB world/level articles (Super-Yoshi's helping me), and rid all the articles of the Smashbox template. 01:17, 9 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Thanks! I'd help with the MSS Cards...but I don't know anything about MSS. DX 10:37, 9 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Templates are kind of fun actually. :o That's true. Sometimes working hard for your projects is a lot of fun. :) 12:36, 9 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Agreed. It's always good to know that you've brought some sort of professionalism and/or improvement to the site. Templates can be that way sometimes. Like this one or this one. I was so happy when I figured out the crazy coding for making the release dates interchangeable (with some help from Cobold, of course). :) But then, sometimes it gets a little chaotic, like at the bottom of the Bowser article. <_< 12:46, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Birdo Species
Birdo is at the least a yoshi subspeicies, but I am sure that I someware read her to be a yoshi. (In the origional game she looks just like yoshi) plus she has the same abilities as yoshi. Like humans, just because they look different, doesn't mean they are a different species. Reply on my talkpage.

Maybe they should be all a subspiecies of Dinosaurs, As they are definatly that. Elliotcroft 14:30, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

Re: Thanks
Lol np. Glad to help out. And srsly? o:


 * orlyyyy? :O


 * XD well said lol

^_^ Thanks!!!

Yeah I know but I prefer to type the image's name since ya have to fill in the change the dates each time. (Which a be really bother some since each Mario Game has a different release date. >_<) BTW long time no see :D.

That why I barely use them.

Hey Stumpers, can you help me with sometin?


 * I need you to delete some old revisions of MPDS figures and stuffz. St00by started it but then he stopped on Wigglers Watering Can and had to go. So im wondering if you can do it?


 * Ok. Go here and start from deleting the Flytrap revisions all the way to the last Boss Trophy. Thanks again :D


 * Nvm, St00by JUST did it :P. Thanks for trying to help :D

Reply to the "Princess Peach's Outfits" section
Hey, Stumpers! Yeah, I stopped on the Mario Hoops 3-on-3 one in regards to posting the "fact" about Peach's current "active sports outfit", because I know it didn't have to be mentioned anymore after that point. Besides, the "general details" about it are already on the main Princess Peach article anyway.

As for the "differences" on Peach's outfit in general, I assume you noticed it as well? --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 15:30, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

"Mario Series' Gals" Page (My User Profile)
Hey Stumpers - just wondering, but did you have a chance to look at the extra page I added to my user profile, as well as the related talk page? I was so excited about doing this for my overall profile here on this Wiki. ^_^ --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 12:35, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Well, I wouldn't call it a "shrine", per se; but thanks for the support. And give me a reason why I should support Mona. :P --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 16:10, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Hola
Oh gawd, you won't believe how hard it was to get to this page (dang crappy computer. Thanks, Stoobz. :P). Anyway, I just wanted to drop by and say hi, since we haven't spoken in a while. How's life on the Wiki? I'm not exactly "up-to-speed" with a lot of what's going on. Stooby tells me you've been hard at work here, and we both agree that you are a great choice for 'Crat. :D Well, hope this doesn't seem too "n00by"; I just wanted to say hi. See ya around.

Aw, thanks. Glad SOMEONE missed me. I'm sorta retired, but, I can't help but come here every now and then. And dropping a message on a good friend's talk page doesn't hurt. :P Yeah, it was a coding problem with Stooby's sig that gave my computer an error. XP Lol, you continue to show your pwnfullness, Stumpers. :P Yeah, I saw that. At first, I was a bit upset that all those articles were to be merged, but then I thought, "oh well, my hard work on those articles isn't lost", since all the content was in-tact. Lol, everyone tried to beat me to the punch; You'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat me when it comes to SSB. :P Holy crap, it did? Looks like your persistance finally won the day; You are the KING OF CANONICITY! :O Nintendo has always been known to leave plot holes that are never explained; Nothing pieces together perfectly, in my opinion. The Chronology of the Mario series makes no sense... At least the Sonic series links together in SOME way. :/ Hmmmm... Splitting the articles into different sections about different kinds of media (that's how I understood it. :P)? That sounds good; I never liked the idea of merging the cartoons with the video games. Just doesn't seem right. :/ Don't get your hopes up, pal; I'm not going to take part in a lot of this stuff. I'm still "retired", ya know. :O Also, you appear in my super-hero Wiki comic Master Wikians, with the ability of Elasticity. Just noting that cuz I'm narcissistic. :P

I COULD come back completely, problem is I WON'T. Laziness, lack of motivation, bias, bad memories, stuff like that. Yeah, canon is always a tricky thing. I mean, for Mario, at least; Nintendo sure does know how to mess up a timeline, lol. :P I hope the whole format comes out good; I know you, and you never do anything half-assed. :O Wait, how did you find them? Did you find the Wikia Userpedia? :O Link, just for the heck of it. :P You aren't in the comic JUST YET, but you will be. B) I said it before, and I'll say it again; Stumpers for Bureaucrat! Time Q for 'Crat as well! =D

Sorry for responding this late; The aforementioned laziness and whatnot. -_q I will; So many cool Users are on the MarioWiki. :O Cool, thanks. I know, that really sucks. But seems that my article writing skills have become rather rusty... All the articles I make now are low-quality and stupid-sounding. I've tried to rewrite your article, but it always come out stupid, so I never save it. :( Lol, yeah, should've mentioned that little detail. Cameo appearances FTW! :P You get a third cameo in Chapter 6 (yes, I've made a bit of it), but I made those scenes before deciding to add you to the main cast. :P You almost get killed in your PROPER debut, but you're saved in time. :O Have I ever been wrong? *looks back to when I said I'd never retire from the MarioWiki* o_o' I still remember your edits from way back in the day; You never did anything half-assed, dude. You put everything into the articles you wrote, yo. You and Time Q would make great 'Crats. ;)

That metaphor made me laugh; Not because it was lame, but because it just sounded funny and was very unique. We all retire eventually; It's inevitable. We may return eventually, maybe for a few days, maybe for a few months, maybe for just a few minutes, but we'll always retire sooner or later. Hey, you're definitely 'Crat material, dude. Polite, helpful, active, edits a lot, wise and knowledgable, etc. Besides, you'd be a much better 'Crat than RAP or Steve. Nah, I'm a loser, Stumpy. So why don't you kill me? :P Yeah, I dunno when I'll properly debut you... Gotta plan that out. XO Heh, nice article; Better than anything I wrote. The pic is cool; Nice image caption, but I don't think humorous image captions are allowed... Then again, both our old 'Crats are either retired or don't give a damn anymore, so we can change the rules! :D I don't remember you appearing in any other comic... Well, I think you appeared in Troll Tragedies, by Plumber... But I'm not sure if he remade the article on Userpedia yet. :/ I won't get rid of the image; It's epic. :P CAUSE THIS IS THRILLER! THRILLER NIGHT! :O

RAP tried to make a hand-drawn comic; It was good style but, GAWD, the story was s***. Likewise, Lil'Boo made a sprite comic about average everyday situations, but that sucked ass as well. If you're going to make a gentle story about normal situations, you better have a damn good plot set out. Not many people on the Wiki like that kind of comic genre... Everyone's about action and doomsday stories. :/ Your work here pwns, dude. Never think otherwise... Unless you go inactive. :P Thanks; I'll put a lot of thought into your role. ;)

Article Organization proposal
There has been much talk about it. Are we going to see it anytime soon? - 09:49, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yay! I voted. - 12:55, 27 October 2008 (EDT)

Hey, where's the stuff about merging the personality section and the intro, removing the relations... ect?

btw, I'd really appreciate help for that Pirate game proposal I talked about some times ago... I kind of... Ran into a wall while trying to write it. --Blitzwing 15:31, 27 October 2008 (EDT)

Hi! how do i upload a pic to my userpage?
The pic is 1/2 mario related because it has a non mario character in it. I'll make it on MS Paint with Mario and the lovely teacher Lupita n_n Mario loves Teacher Lupita 18:44, 29 October 2008 (EDT)
 * thanks!

^__^ Happy Halloween!!!! :D

Happy Halloween!!! Were Blonde

When I See Your Name, I Think of Trees
I'm serious - I think of tree stumps when I see "Stumpers"! I'm curious to know the origin of your name, if you'd like to share.

Yeah, if Halloween existed here, I wouldn't need a costume - I'm scary enough already.

Aha - I knew there was a reason you decided to talk to me: Well, I guess I had that B-word there because unlike the F- and S-words (among others), I didn't think it was considered offensive enough to need to be censored. But since you say so - I guess I'll censor that. But I hear that B word said all the time everywhere as though it's not rude at all. o_0

LOL, I like cats.

BTW, what do you think made you become a Sysop?

Can I Use German Swear-Words...
Just kidding. I learn German at school.

Oh crop - I haven't censored that word on my User page - whoops. I'll do that when I get a chance. Is there anything else on my User page that is inappropriate? Do User pages affect the chance of becoming a Sysop?

Stumpers is a good name, especially compared to a lot of the pathetic names I've seen here. Won't mention them in case any of them read this.

1. I wish I could be more active, but it's impossible. I try to come on whenever possible. 2. OK - I often get distracted by the huge number of messages on my talk page, annoyingly. 3. I have a lot of Proposal involvement. I once made a Proposal about Brawl and it was successful! 4. I'll try to remain calm. 5. "(talk pages... I also should note edit summaries here)." - does that mean I need to work on these areas? 6. I've never directly asked that. I once asked RAP whether he thought I had a chance of ever being one - but that was ages ago. Of course I would secretly like to be one, and would not abuse the associated powers such as deleting stuff.

You'll think of me? Wowee.

I want to see this Secret Sysop forum, now! - Just kidding.

Well, my 'real' (non-virtual) life is already ruined in many ways, so it's too late. Unless something happens with... something, but that will require a huge amount of courage from me, something I do not have at all. Wait - are you saying you've ruined your real-life since becoming a Sysop? I hope not.

Yes, time is a curse. Time is evil. There is never enough, or always too much.

Funnily enough, my User name is simply my shortened real name, by which I am known by everyone at my school and everywhere. So yeah - I assume you can guess my full real-name. It's a crap name which I hate. I'd rather be called 'Dimentio'! What!? I'm serious.

I would've had a more creative name, but I kind of joined randomly back on February the 18th this year when I had something I simply had to add to the Flopside page (which remains there), and I had only just discovered the Login/Create Account button. I discovered the Wiki itself several months earlier and started reading everything.

I finally remembered to change the 2 instances of that word on my User page.

Fake News
Heya, Stumpers. Since 3D retired from the Fake News, I'm curious: would you like to do the Travel Guide again? I need around 4 users to join, and I knew you had experience. :) 18:47, 13 November 2008 (EST)
 * Awesome, thanks! Yeah, I understand if they're short. I had to drop the obituaries since I was taking over as head of the team. College is starting to strain on my time a little more now. 04:47, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Doopliss
I would like to request the removal of your opposal to the Doopliss FA as I got the best info I could on the Super Mario-Kun Section.

awsome ty!--Luigibros2 18:29, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Re: New Boxart
Hey, thanks! To be completely honest, I just use Google Images to find good boxart; then I copy the image into PhotoImpact. It has an option that restores colors that are lost in JPG, GIF, and other low-quality formats, so that they look like PNG or TIFF images. If I find a free download of it, I'll be sure to give you the link. :D 23:23, 18 November 2008 (EST)
 * No problem! Here's a free download. :) 16:05, 19 November 2008 (EST)
 * Hey, I'm more than happy to help. :D Oh, and the Travel Guide...how about two days before The 'Shroom comes out? That'll give me time to put it together with the rest of the sections. 16:14, 19 November 2008 (EST)
 * Usually it's the first Saturday of the month; I'm just too lazy to look up the date. XP 16:23, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Canon
Please check out my re-write to Canonicity. I tried to make the policy stronger and more assertive. Let me know what you think! -- Son of Suns


 * Yeah, that all makes sense! I'm glad you worked on that ('cause I think the concept of everything official as appropriate for documentation is the best way to approach the Mario Wiki - it makes it much more inclusive!)  I think I may look over the Chronology page, but I don't know how much I actually want to work on it.  I do think we need to change some of the language.  Since there is no canon, I don't think we can dictate how an article should be written - like, not every article needs to be written according to the "chronology" (which is somewhat speculative).  I think we should encourage a flexible writing style - writing that makes the most sense for the article, be it according to events or simply in order of game release.  Whatever feels best for the article.  Ya know what I mean?? -- Son of Suns

Chronology
Yeah, maybe chronology should eventually be dropped. Or just remain as a potential guidline to help users write articles; one of many flexible ways an article can be organized. I think the only guideline we should have is to follow international game release order unless writers feel info should be presented in a different order that makes sense. Here are some recommendations I just came up with:

1) We can't assume thaht just because a game was released later that the events depicted occurred later. We can say that articles at the very minimum should follow an order based on release dates, but parts can be reorganized in other ways (placing Mario Party info in other places, placing SMW2: Yoshi's Island at the beginning if so desired, etc.).  Not all games feature references to past games, so Super Mario Sunshine really acts as a pseudo-sequel to Luigi's Mansion and thus would be an exception, not the basis for the rule.  Ultimately I think we should emphasize release date order, but that does not indicate literally when something occurred – it is just a matter of organization.  Only games that specifically mention what order they occur in should be placed (if it makes sense for the article) in pseudo-chronological order.  For example, in the Mario article I may place SMW2: YI info, then Super Mario Bros. info, then Super Mario Bros. 2 info, then Super Mario Land info. We can explicitly state that SMW2 occurs before all those games (it is indicated by the game itself), but we cannot say that Super Mario Land literally occurs after Super Mario Bros. 2. We should still place SML after SMB2 in articles, but we cannot say that is the actual version of events. For all we know, the reverse is true.

2) Regarding remakes, just as there is no canon over any other product we cannot assume that one game is more "true" than the other. Therefore I think we should place remakes in order of release or in the same section as the original game, commenting that this could be a completely different adventure that either extends the story of the original game, or is a subsequent adventure in the greater timeline.  Basically, both are true, but could possibly portray different events (or could equally portray a different "version" of the same event).  Remakes should mean "and/or" simultaneously; not "and", and not "or."

3) Lastly, I just have some questions. Why are the movie and Super Smash Bros. series placed in "separate" timelines?  Why is Captain Rainbow part of the main timeline if Super Smash Bros. if not?  And why is Yoshi's Story placed after Yoshi's Island DS?

Yeah, send me a reply. Maybe in the end this will just be a tool for those who need guidance, or could even possibly become a resource detailing every specific comment the Mario franchise has actually made regarding chronology (including things as minute as the Pianta janitor comment). -- Son of Suns


 * So basically you are telling me that a lot of this has already been changed in some proposal, but is not currently reflected in the Chronology article? Should my remake idea be included?

And some responses. I always reinterpreted the movie's "what if" not as a "what-if" scenario, but as a "what if everything we have learned about the world is and always has been false," that the world has always been this way. It's not a "what-if scenario," but a "what is scenario." Ultimately this is a moot point, as the articles will be organized according to media, but this is still something to consider. Basically, I might argue that the movie is not alternate canon (to use my original terms) and may indeed be connected to the games.

Again, this may be a moot point, but I think Super Smash Bros. allows for the possibility that all Nintendo franchises represented may actually be dolls, trophies, etc. brought to life within their own universes. The characters in our games are actually trophies. Basically, the SSB series is meta-commentary on the "truth" of every other franchise, that the Mario in the original Super Mario Bros., the Link in Zelda 64, and the Samus in Metroid Prime, etc. are literally and always have been trophies. This element of the plot is simply not revealed in the games – only the master narrative of Super Smash Bros. reveals this. What Super Smash Bros. exposes is that all the characters in the Mario series are simply representations "brought to life." This is largely moot, but something to consider. Again, this shows that the Smash Bros. series and the Mario series are more deeply connected, not part of some alternate timeline.

Lastly, how do we know the live-action segments occur before the cartoon segments of the SMB: SS! I haven't seen every episode, but isn't it plausible that the live-action segments occur after the cartoon segments, when Mario and Luigi have finally returned to Brooklyn? -- Son of Suns


 * Yeah totally. I don't know how much I have changed - it's always been a matter of emphasis for me.  Personally I believe the wiki should focus on video game information, but that shouldn't dictate how others consume Mario and contribute to the wiki.  I believe the wiki should be as inclusive as possible, always remaining flexible to new sources, to new contributers, and to new styles of writing.  I definitely regret some of my attempts to perhaps forcefully organize the wiki by different means (spin-off wikis, Diddy Kong Racing DS controversy, etc.) when we should be growing the wiki naturally through user interaction with the mass of Mario sources out there.  I may have been too concerned with the wiki itself, instead of fostering development between users and the wiki.  Well, whatever.  I always had good intentions (I think).

And yeah, really explicit chronology should be made explcit in articles, such as SML to SML2, if that makes the most sense for organization. And based on what I know of the cartoons, I would have to agree with the placement of the live-action vs. cartoon segments. It makes sense. But there is always the possibility that the live-action segments take place after Super Mario Galaxy. =P -- Son of Suns

Oh, one more thing, I think somewhere we need to state that it is okay to shift between "in-universe" and out of universe in regards to how articles are written. Since video games are self-reflexive and depend on the player for interaction, it should be appropriate and indeed in some cases neccessary (i.e. Bowyer) to go back and forth between the fictional world and the real world, just as video games operate within both worlds. I don't know where to state this, but it should probably be made explicit somewhere, even though it is kinda obvious. -- Son of Suns


 * Thanks. That proposal makes sense.  My only recommendation is that we shouldn't be super strict on enforcing that model as the only model (which you seem to realize - you write users can write in a certain way, not should write in a certain way).  We should be flexible, but also find ways to eliminate baseless speculation (which I think was the primary goal of the proposal).  -- Son of Suns

La Expansión
Thanks, Stumpers! I've bypassed that article a lot, and I finally decided it needed to be expanded. I'm glad you came to me to ask me some questions. As to point A &mdash; I was thinking that a backstory may need to be added. I wasn't exactly sure how to do it though, because each game kinda gives an additional piece to the backstory. As to point B &mdash; Yeah, that system is pretty screwed up. I was thinking of breaking it down differently...somewhat like this:


 * Console Games
 * NES
 * SNES
 * N64
 * GameCube
 * Wii
 * Handheld Games
 * Game Boy
 * Virtual Boy
 * Game Boy Color
 * Game Boy Advance
 * DS

Then, I was going to add some additional sections, like this:


 * Common Features in the Mario Series
 * Items
 * Super Mushroom
 * 1-Up Mushroom
 * Mini Mushroom
 * Mega Mushroom
 * Fire Flower
 * Star
 * Objects
 * Brick Block
 * ? Block
 * ! Block
 * Switches &mdash; (This would explain ?, !, and P-Switches)
 * Major Characters and Species in the Mario Series
 * Characters
 * Mario
 * Luigi
 * Bowser
 * Princess Peach
 * Toad
 * Donkey Kong
 * Wario
 * Princess Daisy
 * Toadette
 * Waluigi
 * Species
 * Goombas
 * Koopas
 * Boos
 * Hammer Bros.
 * Lakitus & Spinies
 * Cheep-Cheeps
 * Dry Bones
 * Blooper
 * Thwomps
 * Bullet Bills
 * Other Series
 * Partner Series
 * Donkey Kong
 * Yoshi
 * Wario
 * Spin-offs
 * Mario Party
 * Mario Kart
 * Mario Golf
 * Mario Tennis
 * Critical Reception

What do you think? I know it's really long, but I'm more than willing to do the work. I also plan to upload all the images that will be featured in the article into PNG format so that they're crystal clear. =) Once I started getting to the nitty-gritty part of the expansion, I was gonna ask you and Cobold for opinions on what else to do/change. 16:17, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * Sorry you have a sore throat. D: Hmm, Like that narrative idea; it's pretty inventive. I'm not good with narrative dialogue though. I mainly just describe stuff. Maybe you could help, if you get a chance? It's not like I'm gonna have the article done any time soon. It needs a lot of work. Going in straight chronological order does sound best, actually. That's what I've done with a few other series articles. Thanks for all the help! Gah, finals. I just took my class finals today. I got a B+, so I'm pretty happy. Are you looking forward to Thanksgiving? 17:26, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday of the year! It brings my small family closer together for a day, we all pig out on food, sleep, and decorate the Christmas tree. It's probably the most family-oriented day I experience each year. Glad to hear you have confidence in your finals. :) I'm also glad to hear your throat's getting better before Thanksgiving! Of course, what else is canned cranberry sauce good for? :P Awesome. I'll keep working on the article and dropping by for your opinions. Oh, I bet your dorm will be crazy around Christmas! 03:28, 21 November 2008 (EST)

FA
I request that you remove your vote, cause the page got moved :P.


 * Hey Stumpers, this is kinda urgent and really important. It involves what we've been discussing on St00by's forums, I need you to come on chat right now.

Congratz. You deserved it. :)

CONGRATULATIONS man your epic =3


 * Congrats on becoming a 'crat, man. =3 This is gonna be so epic. 21:29, 1 December 2008 (EST)

Congrats dude!
 * Thanks, everyone! I hope I can help you guys as much as you all have helped me!  23:05, 1 December 2008 (EST)

Congrats from me too! You're probably the one of us new 'crats who deserves it best :P 06:46, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Hi Stumpers! Congrats on becoming a 'Crat!!!! =D
 * Thanks =3.

Hey Stumpers
Want to be Friends on here from Purple Koopa Bro.

Chronology
As you may have noticed, I am trying to revise the Chronology page to make it more inclusive for different styles of organization, and to create a database of specific chronological connections that can then be mentioned in articles. It's mostly the same as the original. However, I do want to make one major change, and that deals with so-called alternate timelines and the central timeline. To me this sounds a lot like alternate canon, so I am proposing that we drop the whole concept of alternate timelines. Just as we don't know how Super Smash Bros. is connected to Super Mario Bros., the same could be said of the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, where there is no explicit connection to the game series. The same thing applies to other sources, including the Super Mario Bros. movie (which just might be a remake of the video game series, not an "alternate" timeline). However, we can say that some sources mesh up better than other sources (like the video games and the DIC cartoons). While there are some contradictions that can be noted, they mostly complement each other and can thus be interwoven throughout articles as needed (for example, SMW2 depicts the morning of Mario's birth, and in the cartoons Mario claimed he was born with a plunger in his hand, so this information can be included together if so desired). That being said, there are some sources like Super Smash Bros. and the movie (and some of the anime) that don't mesh up well with other sources. In these cases, contradictions can be pointed out but should not be reconciled by claiming they exist in a separate timeline. Unlike sources that work well together, we can say that sources like the movie and SSB for the most part work better by information from those sources in separate sections. This does not mean they are false or in an "alternate timeline," they are just more contradictory, and for the sake of sensibility in articles they are typically placed in separate sections.

Okay, that was a lot. Any ideas on that? Does it make sense? --

I am close to finishing the new Chronology page (or at least the guidelines, I started a list of chronological references between games but it needs to be filled out with more entries). But I think we should make a new article to complement the chronology page, something along the lines of "List of all media products by release date." It would provide the basis for any article - that you simply list all information by release date. Users can then consult the Chronology page for games and sources that make specific references to other games in order to organize articles accordingly. That is, we can only write a game occurs before or after another only if a source says it occurs before or after, instead of just assuming it occurs later because it was released later (which was the old policy). What d'ya think 'bout all that? --

Quick update. I have uploaded the new version of the Chronology to replace the old. Feel free to make any changes as needed. We can use this new policy to remove speculation from articles regarding the history of events (something we both did I believe). You might want to return to your Mushroom Kingdom article to remove all references about how events are connected if there is no official evidence (such as when the Mario Kart tournament occurs and when the attack by the Smithy Gang happens). =) --

Personally I enjoy the in-universe stuff the most, so I am actually hoping the Chronology will help us get more in-universe information and connections so that we can actually link events together without turning to baseless speculation. A list of all media would help with that.

Yeah, that's why I added the list of chronological references to the end of chronology, so we could have explicit proof of when something occurred. So you can write NSMB occurred some time after SMS, but you can’t write that SM64 occurred after SMRPG, as there is no evidence to suggest this is the order of events (if I am not mistaken).

For now I am going to leave Chronology as it is. I specifically indicated that how an article is organized depends on the community's decision, and the proposal is one of those decisions for organization. I think we should keep Chronology somewhat flexible though so that relevant connections between media can be made, as well as connections between different series and sub-series. (For example, under a strict policy, SMW2 information or information about M&L:PiT would have to go in separate sections because they are in "sub-series," but they are also supposed to go earlier in an article because they explicitly show events earlier, so we would have to move all the sub-series info to the beginning of the article, as information in one section can't go into another section.) Also I feel some smaller articles with information from a lot of different media sources but not much information overall would become very confusing if strictly divided. That is, while information can be divided in sections, that does not mean connections cannot be made, be it connections of similarity or connections of dissimilarity.

Basically what I am saying is that while separation of different sources is a good concept to follow, we inevitably have to break the rules in order to make articles coherent, as strict separation may be as confusing as not having any separation at all. While the chronology says it is not incorrect to write in order of say a character's age, you ultimately have to defer to the authority of the community in order to make articles sensible to read. You said it best here: "if we're going to assume all games are in one continuity, then we need to assume that all alternate media are as well." Given that, we should allow cross-game and cross-media connections. --

Oh yeah I definitely meant brief comparing and contrasting of different sources commenting on the same event, perhaps with links to sections in the article that explain the media source in more detail - basically, whatever makes most sense. I almost rewrote the Mario and Luigi's father article in pure "chronological" order, but it ended up being too confusing (Mario Amada would have been first in the article as it is about Mario's birth and was released before Yoshi's Island, but then there were so many contradictions to explain the article just didn't make much sense). Like I wrote in Chronology, all articles will probably be a mix of a strict standard version (divided into sections with each source listed by release date) and a strict chronological style (all media is mixed based on explicitly established historical continuity then release dates). So yeah I think we're good then. I'm excited to work on expanding our knowledge of Mario's universe by getting all these alternate and contradictory sources into the mix. =) -- P.S. And yes, I am a sysop again. P.S.S. Despite its difficulty, it would be really cool to one day be able to list all appearances under one single section according to release dates (or chronological exceptions).  It would be like how Wookiepedia splices information from movies, cartoons, and novels all together, although Star Wars actually has a defined canon...with a specific in-universe dating system...


 * Haha. That would be really cool, although I doubt that would ever happen.  At best we'll probably just have a tangled web of connections between sources from which to base our articles. =) --

Mario and Luigi's Parents
I made the Mario and Luigi's father article! The only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not it was confirmed that Mr. and Mrs. Mario were married at some point in their lives; I left that part along the lines of "they are supposedly married". I also inferred that in the image Marioparents.PNG Mr. Mario is to the right (there's a discussion about it on Image_talk:Marioparents.PNG). I used that picture for the infobox, like on the Parents article, and I'm assuming the same will be done for Mama Mario? It seems a bit repetitive, but SMA3 was the latest appearance (unless we can track down an image of one of the parents' pair of hands holding up the babies in the introduction of Yoshi's Island DS), so our hands may be tied in this matter. Anyway, I hope you like the article! - 21:36, 4 December 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks, though SoS is responsible for half the article at this point. Anyway, Mama Mario's looking great, just remember to tell me when it's up so I can help fix all the links (please and thank you). - 00:59, 6 December 2008 (EST)
 * I don't need patience when dealing with you - you work FAST! By the time I got your message you had pretty well finished re-linking, but I manged to find a couple things to do :D Mama Mario looks great, though I'll still be making a few changes here and there. It's been great working with you on all this, by the way! - 20:47, 6 December 2008 (EST)
 * Okay, thanks. I've never seen the show, so I wouldn't know either way. - 01:18, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Re: Talk
Lolol, you're on nao but not in chat 20:49, 6 December 2008 (EST)

Murry Chrithmath!
(Lol, Hermie III)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr25/St00by/Stumpers.gif

Stooby Clause decided to stop by and give you a gift. I hope you like it. =3 05:12, 17 December 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks! Glad to hear your finals are over with; I'm taking my math finals today, and then I'm done for two weeks! Hermie is hilarious. I love it when he thinks Mario is "Thanta Clauthe". XD Hey man, I'm happy to hear you like it. You're one of my best friends on this site, so I had to make you something! 13:11, 17 December 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks, you're too kind. :) It makes me happy to think that I'm one of your best buds on here. You don't have to get me anything; I really don't giving and not receiving. But I do appreciate the Christmas rewrite offer...I may take you up on that. ...Maybe we could even collaborate! http://209.85.12.227/12076/161/emo/Happy.PNG 19:54, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Cool. I might need help with the last two sections of the Mario (series) article; I'm not good at writing info about stuff outside of the series. :P My status? Ugh...

Well, to start out with, a friend from college left his home, so me and my family took him in. Mind you, we have virtually no money to begin with, but we didn't want him out in the cold. So, he did nothing except eat all of our food for 3 weeks. ...To skip past all the boring stuff, he became very malevolent towards the family, threatening us and yelling at us. We eventually kicked him out (back into his old home) after he threatened to beat my mom and kill me. o_0

He started sending us e-mails about how we were "a**holes" for "kicking him out and not supplying him with the necessities of life". So, since he goes to college with me, we contacted the college; they wouldn't do anything about it. So, I finished up my math assignments yesterday, and got a grade today of 50% on one assignment and 8% on the other. I contacted the teacher, but he said he wouldn't help. (My computer has been screwing with my files, so it erased newer revisions of my homework, so when I sent them in an e-mail, he only got a few answered questions.) The college did nothing to help, so as of right now, my math grade stands at a 45%. Hopefully my tests can at least bring it up to a D. :\

So, now I'm being pulled out of college because of their lack of care for their students. They've taken all the hard work I've done for granted, not helped me get my (their) computer virus-free, and showed no care that I could get severely harmed by my roommate at college, or anywhere off-campus. So, I'm going to have to give back this laptop to the college, thus cutting my time back drastically, because I can only get on for an hour or two a day with the library's computers.

Not to mention, we have no money for Christmas, so we'll be using our food stamp card to buy each other food for Christmas. I guess that's better than some people have it though. 01:50, 18 December 2008 (EST)
 * While I've kinda lost my belief in God over the past years, and especially the past 8 months, I sincerely appreciate your kind thoughts. :') Yeah, I don't much care about getting gifts on Christmas, but I feel like I'm a very proud person, so I feel like there should be something I can do to get them gifts. *gears* Thanks! I'll really appreciate the help. :D 17:17, 21 December 2008 (EST)

The New
Where exactly are the "New Article Organization" standards? The manual of style is the same as I remember, I don't know if it is MarioWiki:Chronology or something else. 18:20, 22 December 2008 (EST)
 * Is the Bowser article to your liking naow sir? 22:47, 23 December 2008 (EST)

A New Hope?
Hey Stumpers! You said you were always looking for new ways to organize articles, and I may have found a perfect approach. Check out: Toad (species) and this edit I made to the Mama Mario article. I think the problem with your revised standard is that it organizes information around the type of media, which leads to complications as not all media of the same "type" are actually the same. What is and what is not of a particular medium is extremely subjective. For example, Nintendo Comics System and Club Nintendo are extremely different, yet they are placed in the same section of the Mama Mario article. Or look at the new Bowser article. All appearances in "visual media" are in a section, which includes all the anime and the Western TV shows. This contradicts the Mama Mario article, where The Super Mario Bros. Super Show is separate from the Amada OVAs. The attempt to use media as a standard has lead to different standards of what actually are the different media of the Mario franchise. So, instead, I think we should drop that part of the policy and instead organize based on series and stand-alone titles. Like your standard, this standard would organize sections according to release date or explicit chronological references. So Yoshi series would come before Super Mario series (chronologically), and Super Mario series before Paper Mario series (release date). Again, like your standard, game sub-sections within the series section would be arranged the same (chronologicl references and release date). The difference is that series would be placed in order regardless of media. So the Mario Kart series would appear after The Super Mario Bros Super Show series, as the Kart series was released after the show. This would allow us to avoid speculative grouping according to media, as well as reduce the number of section and sub-section headers. With this standard, only two section/sub-section headers would be needed. One for the series, and then a sub-section header for individual games (if mentioned - perhaps for certain articles we only want to summarize appearances in an entire series, such as Mario Kart, instead of listing every game in the series). Episodes of a television or comic series would be organized as sub-sections of the series section, as if they were a game in a video game series. Completely independent titles not part of an established series or sub-franchise, such as Luigi's Mansion, the Super Mario Bros. movie, and Super Princess Peach, would be placed as regular section headers (akin to a series section), instead of being placed in an "other titles section" (which is not very helpful, as the games are not related in the slightest). With a standard like this, we could effectively organize articles while keeping section headers to only two degrees. It also keeps content from different series from "leaking" into each other. So you wouldn't go from a Super Show episode to a video game to a Super Show episode to a comic episode to a Super Show episode. All episode or game entries would be placed in their respective series. So...let me know what you think of this, okay? Oh, I also think we should mandate that the section headers state the name of the series and games, instead of "imaginative" titles descrbing the events of the game. That way people can easily find info from the source they are lookng for, even if it is arranged accordng to the fictional chronology of events. --

P.S. Series would be arranged by the first appearance/reference of the subject in the series. So for example, in the Mama Mario article, the Mario Kart series would come after the Club Nintendo series, as Mama was mentioned in Double Dash in 2003 and "Super Mario in Die Nacht des Grauens" came out in 1996, although Super Mario Kart was released in 1992. We would go by the date of the appearance, not the date foundng the series (unless, of course, they appeared in the first game of the series).

P.S.S. Okay, I have one more change I would like to suggest - we shouldn't organize articles based on chronological references, simply because it gets way too confusing and complicated. For example, both Super Mario World 2 and Super Mario Momotaro feature the "birth" of Mario, so they would have to be placed earlier in the article. Instead, I think we should simply organize appearances by release date. We would organize series by the release date of the first appearance of the subject in that article, and then in each series section, all appearances would be listed according to release date. Chronological references between different games, sources, etc. can still be made in the article, they just wouldn't be organized according to the complicated fictional chronology. So Yoshi series information may appear later in some articles, although you can say that the events depicted in SMW2 and YIDS occur before the events of most other sources. However, to provide a lead-in to the rest of the History/Appearances section, as well as summarize chronological events before the actual appearances, we could add a "Background" section to some articles under the History section, but before moving on to the actual appearances. In the Background section, we could summarize events in the "past" or other references about the character to help readers contextualize the rest of the information. For example, Mario may look like this:

Background
Main article: Baby Mario

Mario was born on Mushroom World and delivered by The Stork to his parents, as seen in the game Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. According to The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, Mario was born with a plunger in his hand. As a baby, he would have many adventures, battling the young king Baby Bowser and even meeting up with his future self to battle with the invading Shroobs. When he grew up, he worked in various professions, including plumber and carpenter.

Donkey Kong
Mario's first appearance was in Donkey Kong. He battled Donkey Kong to save his girlfriend Pauline.

''Donkey Kong Jr.
After the events of Donkey Kong, Mario captured Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong was saved by his son Donkey Kong Jr. in the aptly named Donkey Kong Jr.. In this game, Mario assumed a villainous role.

Mario Bros.
Mario and his brother Luigi fought monsters in the sewers in the game Mario Bros.

Super Mario Bros.
Mario and Luigi saved their old friend from their youth, a grown-up Princess Peach, from their old enemy, the now adult Bowser during the events of Super Mario Bros.

[appearances from main Mario series of games, etc. etc.]

Super Mario Galaxy
In Super Mario Galaxy, Mario had to save the entire universe from Bowser.

Wrecking Crew series
[I believe this would be the next "series" in order of release.]

[Info from two Wrecking Crew games, etc. etc.]

So information about Baby Mario, which is simultaneously the same as but different from Mario, would be placed in the Background section. The rest of the article would focus on adult Mario appearances. This could also be used for articles which feature back-stories not actually depicted or interacted with in the game. So the Star Spirits article could feature a Background section explaining they have existed since the beginning of time, and the Shadow Queen article could have a section about her war aganst the world before being sealed away for a thousand years (leading to the events of the game). This would also help solve the problem with the Mama Mario article. Many of the references about her background and life with the young Mario and Luigi could be made in the Background section (such as references to how she treated them as kids, what she cooked, etc.), while actual appearances would appear in the main body of the history section. Again, let me know what you think, but I think this will simplify how we organize information in the history section, while also keeping the same products in a series in the same section. --