MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52

Change the way that recurring Mario & Sonic events are handled, round 2
After the no quorum result of the last attempt at this proposal, I've taken on board the comments from last time and changed the proposal to reflect this. So, at the moment, there's an issue in the way that events that appear in more than one of the Mario & Sonic games are handled, as events that share the same or similar names across games are all put together on the same article, despite the fact that they are very different between games, using different controls, scoring systems, characters, etc.. This isn't only a problem between Wii/Wii U and DS/3DS instalments, which would obviously and understandably have very different controls and slightly modified gameplay, but also between games on similar consoles, for example, the Trampoline event in the first DS game required certain patterns to be drawn with the stylus to perform various moves and the player to slide up with the stylus to jump, whereas in the 2012 3DS game moves are performed automatically and the player must use the circle pad to keep their character within a certain area, pressing the A button to jump. This means that infoboxes are overloaded with excessive information, defeating their purpose, and that the articles are a complete mess of headers and sections. 100m Dash and 100m Freestyle are examples of this, and please keep in mind that they still have a considerable amount of missing information, particularly from the later games. Part of the reason that all of the events are sharing one page seems to have apparently stemmed from the fact that they're currently being treated as generic subjects, which is not really how they should be viewed. They should be treated in a similar way to minigames, with each getting an individual article, even if they share a name, a few controls or subject that they're based on. Just because they're based on a real world subject, it doesn't mean that they should be covered like one (And any that currently have generic subject-like articles will be changed in the future, to give them more of a minigame-like focus, similar to 100m Breaststroke). Additionally, several Dream Events also share this issue (Including Dream Race, Dream Long Jump and Dream Bobsleigh), which are in no way affected by the generic subjects policy, and should be treated as separate minigames, but are currently all placed on the same page for being similar. These should also be split, in the same way as the regular events, as the two are treated as the same thing within the games.

Therefore, I'm proposing that we split each game's version of the event into its own unique article, which only covers the event's appearance in the one game. Only the controls, missions, playable characters, etc. for one game's version of the event would be included on that page, and an About template would be added to the top of name-sharing articles with a link to the disambiguation page for the other events or the events with a similar name. An identifier would be added to any articles with shared names, and I'm currently thinking that it would specify only the game if it only appears in one of the instalments for a specific year (Such as "Pole Vault (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic games)", which appears in the 3DS version but not the Wii one), or both the game and console if it appears in more than one version (Such as "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Nintendo 3DS))" and "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Wii U))"). This is just how I think the identifiers would work from what I can piece together from here, but unfortunately, it's not really designed to help out in cases like this thanks to naming in the Mario & Sonic series, so any other suggestions for identifiers are more than welcome. Any shared names would be turned into disambiguation pages, listing all of the separate articles and any with similar names, such as 100m and 100m Dash. If an event has a slightly different name in one or more instalments, it will use that name instead of the similar one that all the other events are named after with an identifier, but will still have the about template and so on. Events such as Balance Beam that only appear in one game will not be affected by this and will remain at the one name.

So, in summary, each version of an event from each game is split and given game-specific identifiers (Or some other form of identifier if a better one is suggested), the shared title is turned into a disambiguation page and About templates are added, events with different names between versions go to the unique names and events that only appear once remain unchanged.

Proposer: Deadline: July 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Sure. And maybe the original page for each event would be a disambiguation?
 * 4) Definitely. I have all of the games for both consoles each, so I can assist if necessary. Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.

Comments
@SeanWheeler: Yep, that's the plan, things like Archery (event) would be turned into disambiguation pages, and ones that already share a name like Football will be added onto the existing one. BBQ Turtle (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Actually, Archery (event) should undergo a page move instead to preserve page histories, and the Archery page should instead list the two events. 13:11, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's a good idea, alright, so we'll move the current Archery to Archery (class), Archery (event) to the now empty Archery, convert that into the disambiguation page, and have the separate games' information split off onto the separate pages, which is linked to from the disambiguation page along with the class. If I find any other pages with the same names as their classes, the same thing will happen there too. BBQ Turtle (talk) 14:27, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Additionally, for the Archery events in particular, I'd suggest using and . For the other cases (such as one event sharing its name with another event on a different release of the same game and with yet two other events on different releases of a different game), talk to Porplemontage and he might know what to do.  19:50, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, the thing is, Archery is one of those awkward ones- it is appears in every game except 2012 for Wii, even 2016 Arcade. There's not a problem with 2012 3DS, as it's listed as Archery (Individual) and Archery (Team), so it'd go to those names, but if we named the 2016 3DS one that, things might start getting confusing. 100m Freestyle would only be worse too, as it appears in every instalment, and I don't think the name changes at all unlike 100m and Javelin. I don't know really, naming's hard with this lot, the determining the identifier thing doesn't really cover this case. BBQ Turtle (talk) 16:38, 12 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Maybe Porplemontage would like to look at this case. 11:15, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

Split the levels exclusive to the Wii U version of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker from their Super Mario 3D World counterparts
I edited Super Bell Hill, Conkdor Canyon, Shadow-Play Alley, and Clear Pipe Cruise back in early 2017 under the impression that they were still the same level, albeit with some alterations. However, now that we have those levels replaced with originally-named levels based on Super Mario Odyssey kingdoms, I'm inclined to split these levels by appearance. In fact, I'm surprised that I never thought to do this already, since we already split similar-looking things based on different appearances. Therefore, I propose we split the aforementioned levels by their Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Wii U) appearances.

Proposer: Deadline: July 20, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comments, these seem to be the same levels just with minor differences to account for the new control scheme.
 * 2) The comments have covered just about everything. These are not different levels, they have the same name, appearance, and design, just with slight alterations so Captain Toad can traverse them.
 * 3) Per the comments. These seem to be the same levels, with minor differences to make them work as Captain Toad levels, unlike the Super Mario Odyssey kingdom levels, which all have their own names and are redesigned as miniature versions.
 * 4) Per all, there's a much bigger difference between the Captain Toad Odyssey levels and the original Odyssey kingdoms than in the Captain Toad 3D World levels and the original 3D World levels.
 * 5) That'd be like splitting Super Mario All-Stars/Super Mario World/Super Mario World 2 levels with the Super Mario Advance games' levels because appearances can be slightly different.

Comments
Aren't they still basically the same level though? I don't see what them being replaced with Odyssey-based levels has to do with whether the pages are split or not. -- 12:00, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * @Waluigi Time: Read my second point. It's my main reason for proposing this. 12:44, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I think the key difference between those examples and these is that those are similar levels/worlds with the same name, while these are the same levels with minor changes to account for Captain Toad's different controls. I'd also like to point out that we have the worlds from NSMBU/NSLU merged, which seems more similar to the case of the Captain Toad levels than the ones you listed. -- 14:46, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And yet there are other examples, such as Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey), despite it essentially being the same thing as the main article. 15:40, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's also another case, as the main article refers to the location itself, while the Odyssey level is split because... well, it's a specific level in Odyssey. Bowser's Castle and Luigi's Mansion are both split into several articles for similar reasons. -- 16:03, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The Super Mario Odyssey-based levels aren't "same level with maybe a ladder or two added," and from what I gather that's roughly what the Super Mario 3D World-based levels are. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And what about the Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 missions such as Bowser's Fortified Fortress and Bowser's Big Bad Speed Run? Their basic layout is essentially the same, except they have different attributes that set them apart. 22:37, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Same reason we have a Paper Goomba article, covering only information from Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Differences found within one game are treated as more major than between games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The layout in both versions of these levels is the exact same with slightly different elements to accommodate the gameplay. Splitting them would mean copy-pasting, which is against one of the site's rules: Once and Only Once. On the other hand, levels from Donkey Kong Country 2, while sharing the same names as those in Donkey Kong Land 2, have different layouts as if they were new levels. Also, Jumpy Jungle from MvDKMLM is an attraction in an amusement park, while Jumpy Jungle from MvDKTS is not, making them fundamentally different--plus, it's only good to keep them separate like that for continuity. -- 12:44, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * True, but we do have multiple articles of World 1-1 ("Super Mario Bros.") despite them all being the same with little differences, including an article I made. 14:00, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yet we don't split Mario Kart racetracks based on the versions they appear in. The Captain Toad levels are the same case as those. -- 15:26, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * To put this point in perspective, the original Cheese Land seems to be on the moon. But when it reappeared in the MK8 DLC, it's based off of the Utah desert instead. A similar situation exists with Ribbon Road. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

@TheFlameChomp: Actually, the English version of the Japanese Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker Switch trailer translated that bit as "miniature." Sure sounds like that when I listened to it and my suspicions were right. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2018 (EDT)