MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57

Use a unique archive color for proposals that fail to reach a consensus
This is something that's been bugging me for a while now. Currently, we don't have a unique color for proposals that fail to reach a consensus (i.e. proposals that get extended three times and end without any option properly "winning"). Currently we just mark them red, the same color used for proposals that straight up fail. This isn't totally illogical, since the result of both outcomes is similar (the proposed changes are not implemented and there's a minimum 4 week wait to propose again). However, I still feel that this needlessly obfuscates the archive, making it impossible to tell which proposals failed by consensus and which ones stalemated without clicking on each and every proposal link in the archive marked red, especially since there is no text in the archive that clarifies this. As a result of this, people browsing through the archive are forced to do extra work just to determine which ones are which for no good reason. Stalemates are common enough that it would be useful to be able to tell them apart easily.

As for what color should be used, my suggestion is white. It's a fitting color for stalemate proposals, and it isn't too close to an existing color (closest is gray, the color used for passed proposals awaiting implementation, but I think it's distinct enough). I'm open to other suggestions though.

Proposer: Deadline: June 1, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Makes sense to me. Per.
 * 3) &mdash; This is a nice little improvement. White should be fine, as both it and black are the only colors left unused without getting into different shades of the existing ones (lavender, navy, etc.)
 * 4) This always kinda bugged me. Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all
 * 7) Sure, why not.
 * 8) Absolutely.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
I noticed in the proposal archive that there is already a colour used for ties, brown, but it only seems to be used for a handful of old proposals, and it isn't on the TPP archive. Is this just because of changes in the proposal rules, and do you plan on replacing it with whatever colour you decide on here? 02:48, May 25, 2021 (EDT)
 * Ties are an artifact of Super Mario Wiki's early years, long before I even joined. Back in the day, proposal extensions weren't a thing, if it reached its deadline and the votes were tied, the proposal simply ended in a tie. Eventually, the rules were changed the current ones, and "failed to reach consensus" replaced ties completely, which is why brown is only used for old proposals. Honestly, the legend should state this and clarify what a "tie" is and why they don't happen anymore, since it's not something that's readily obvious to users who weren't around back then. 16:19, May 25, 2021 (EDT)

Listing changes on articles for ports, remakes, and remasters
Recently, the Changes section of Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury has been discussed while the article is being nominated for Featured status. The biggest issue right now seems to be whether to write the list of changes to 3D World as prose or a bullet-pointed list.

Some examples of other articles with a similar section: Super Mario Advance, Super Mario Advance 3, Super Mario Advance 4, Super Mario 64 DS, and Super Mario 3D All-Stars split the changes into sections, but otherwise use only bullet points. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe instead uses short paragraphs of prose, with each paragraph focusing on a different small aspect of gameplay or design.

Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario Advance 2 blend some sections of prose with bullet lists in others. On the Discord server, Glowsquid recommended a different hybrid model: starting subsections with short prose paragraphs about general changes, and using bullet lists for the smaller details. The full post is in the Comments section below.

I am in support of exclusively bullet points. I think in this specific context, where there can be very minuscule details that might get their own paragraph when using prose, it is more effective to use bullet points. There seems to be more of a standard set with them than with prose, and I think that's because it's more convenient to read the changes when in a bullet list, especially because you can create sub-bullets to highlight groups of changes.

Proposer: Deadline: June 5, 2021, 23:59 GMT

List changes with a hybrid of prose and bullet points

 * 1) I don't really see a problem with the way we have it now since it still conveys all the relevant information and using one over the other depending on the page may be preferable to effectively convey the information in each case. Since that's what we're doing right now and it doesn't actually cause any problems I see no reason to change it.
 * 2) My real opinion would be "Use bullet points unless there's a broad enough patterns of changes you can introduce them in prose". See my comment below.
 * 3) Per Hewer and Glowsquid.
 * 4) Per Glowsquid.
 * 5) &mdash; While I can appreciate the organizational approach this proposal is going for, I feel like limiting our writers to one option or the other is an unnecessary restriction that will cause more harm than good in regards to article flow and readability. Since ports, remakes, etc, don't all follow a standardized set of rules in their production, each one should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to determine the most appropriate way to document the information.
 * 6) Per Glowsquid.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Seems like the best option to me.

List changes in entirely bullet points

 * 1) Per proposal.

Comments
I'll post the discord comments I made when the topic was brought up (also the proposal main text made it sound like i recommended the bowser's fury page to be like SMA2's when what happened is that BLOF brought it and the Super Mario All-Stars as examples of how those sections should be written and I opined I don,t think they work very well, and then brought up my own idea on how those sections should be done)


 * "I don't think there's actually a policy about wheter bullet vs prose is preferable, and to be honest I prefer bullets in most forms. Like, if you want to have some elaboration on the kind of look super mario all-star's revamped graphics go for vs the original game, a paragraph of prose may be fine but most of the articles might as well just be a list of bullet honestly.  For example super mario all-stars, for the graphic section you could start with a prose paragraph that says "all-stars overhauls the graphical presentation of its component games redrawing sprites, adding paralax scrolling that wasn't there before", etc etc and then you have the bullets listing the specific "snifits are now green instead of red" stuff. I don't feel the two examples you gave as they are now are really all that preferable. right now you just a bunch of short paragrahs sandwiches between tons of rogue line breaks."

So for the above-cited example of SMA2, instead of the current appealing wall of text the gameplay changes section is now, it would be more like:

"Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2 gets rid of the 2-player mode and instead overhauls Luigi as a distinct player character with his own abilities. He can be played by pressing R on the world map.
 * Stuff Luigi does different 1
 * Luigi difference 2
 * Luigi difference 3

[paragraph break]

The 100% Completion events have been overhauled, featuring different requirements and new events for triggering Fall.
 * New completion requirement description
 * New fall content
 * New fall enemies"

etc etc. Hopefully you get the gist. --Glowsquid (talk) 09:37, May 22, 2021 (EDT)
 * Sorry about that. I didn't actually see the conversation on the Discord server, so I misunderstood the intent. I've edited the main text.

However, couldn't these short prose introductions also be fit into a bullet list? I mentioned sub-bullets because when the Bowser's Fury page had bullets, it did something similar to this hybrid model by using them. For example:


 * As in Super Mario Odyssey:
 * Save files are saved, loaded, and copied in the same manner.
 * Characters can now roll in midair, similar to the dive.
 * Characters can perform a roll or Ground Pound Jump immediately after landing from a Ground Pound.
 * Characters now fall through upright Warp Pipes when performing a Ground Pound through the center from above. Similarly, characters now enter sideways Warp Pipes immediately when rolling through the center without their momentum being interrupted. The sped-up variant of the Warp Pipe sound effect from Odyssey is reused upon entering Warp Pipes these ways.

If those main bullets would work better as prose, then I could be OK with that as long as the minute changes are bullet points. 0blivion 11:39, May 22, 2021 (EDT)

How to handle Super Mario Odyssey sub-locations
Here we go. After years of development hell, it's finally time to do this.

Super Mario Odyssey did something rather new for this franchise - it named every single Checkpoint Flag in the game. Somehow this convinced people that every single one should have its own article, and by now nearly all of them do, along with a few other landmarks. This is quite excessive. While some of them do deserve article because they're major structures or otherwise notable landmarks (we have articles on things like Shine Gate and Surf Cabana), many of them are just random, nondescript level sections that aren't notable in any way. The way we handle it now is basically like giving every planet in Super Mario Galaxy its own article.

There was a proposal about this years ago which the proposer ended up canceling. The problem with this proposal was that it wasn't clear enough about exactly which locations should get articles and which shouldn't. After that, the issue went unaddressed for years. So I went over them and organized them into groups: what we should keep, what we might want to keep, and what we should definitely merge.

KEEP: These are the areas that I think should stay. It includes three different kinds of areas.
 * 1) Towns with unique music from the rest of the kingdom (e.g. Tostarena Town, Peronza Plaza).
 * 2) Sub-areas that cause the name of the area to appear in big white text when entered (e.g. Underground Power Plant, Underwater Tunnel to the Lighthouse), or large, defined structures that contain such areas (e.g. New Donk City Hall). The only exception is New Donk City Hall Interior, which will be merged with the hall itself.
 * 3) Well-defined structures and major landmarks that don't already meet the previous criteria (e.g. Tostarena Ruins, Mayor Pauline Commemorative Park, Glass Palace). Any checkpoints that are just an "entrance" to or part of one of these greater structures (e.g. Tostarena Ruins Entrance, Tostarena Ruins Sand Pillar, Water Plaza Entrance, New Donk City Hall Rooftop) will be merged with them.

BORDERLINE: Ones I'm not quite sure about. These locations are notable to varying degrees, and may or may not deserve articles in the long run. I'm leaning towards keeping them for now since the main point of this is to weed out the really bad ones.

MERGE: Everything not listed above should be merged, but here are some specific examples:
 * Any of the "islands in the sky" that paintings lead to (Southwestern Floating Island, Diving Platform). They're just platforms with a Power Moon on them. Not notable enough.
 * Meaningless, nondescript checkpoint locations that don't stand out in any way (Tostarena Northwest Reaches, Ocean Trench East/West, Top of the Peak Climb).

'''Here is a list of sub-locations in the game (not all of which are checkpoints), and whether or not I think they're split-worthy. Note the scrolling bar on the right - I put that there to save space on the page, since this proposal is already long as it is. If that bothers you, you can look at my sandbox instead.'''

Cap Kingdom
 * Central Plaza: Borderline, kind of noteworthy, but generically named and not that distinct from the rest of the kingdom since there are hat houses in other parts and it's generically named.
 * Glasses Bridge: Keep, minor landmark mentioned in the brochure.
 * Sometimes Bridge: Borderline, context of the name is that the brochure calls it 'The "Sometimes" Bridge', meaning it's not really a name and should probably be merged later, but whatever, it's not high on my priority list.
 * Top-Hat Tower: Keep, it's a major landmark with a sub-area in it.

Cascade Kingdom
 * Waterfall Basin: Merge, insignificant checkpoint location, and the checkpoint goes away once the Odyssey takes it's place.
 * Stone Bridge: Merge, it's just a strip of land with nothing notable about other than it has a bunch of Burrbos on it.
 * Fossil Falls Heights: Merge. It's basically just refers to the upper portion of the kingdom, which includes Madame Broode's battle arena. It doesn't really stand out geography-wise.
 * Top of the Big Stump: Merge, it's just a tree stump.
 * Island in the Sky (Cascade Kingdom): Merge, painting exit location.

Sand Kingdom
 * Tostarena Town: Keep, it's a town.
 * Tostarena Ruins Entrance, Tostarena Ruins Sand Pillar, Tostarena Ruins Round Tower: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Moe-Eye Habitat: Borderline, arguable minor landmark.
 * Jaxi Ruins: Keep, notable structure with a sub-area in it.
 * Tostarena Northwest Reaches: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Desert Oasis: Keep, landmark that stands out from the rest of the area.
 * Southwestern Floating Island: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Inverted Pyramid: Keep, major landmark and major sub-area.
 * Underground Temple: Keep, major sub-area.
 * Deepest Underground: Keep, technically qualifies as a major sub-area. I think it should be merged with Underground Temple, but I'll decide that with a different proposal.

Lake Kingdom
 * Courtyard (Lake Kingdom): Borderline. Generically named, but it's semi-notable I guess?
 * Water Plaza Entrance, Water Plaza Display Window, Water Plaza Terrace: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Viewing Balcony: Merge, painting exit location.

Wooded Kingdom
 * Iron Road: Entrance, Iron Road: Halfway Point, Iron Mountain Path, Station 8: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Sky Garden Tower: Keep, major landmark and sub-area.
 * Forest Charging Station: Merge, it's just a place where Steam Gardeners get charged. Not exactly hugely notable and the existing article has very little content.
 * Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Part of a greater structure, merge with.
 * Observation Deck: Merge, generically named and not too distinct, existing article has little content.
 * Iron Cage: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Deep Woods: Keep, major sub-area.

Lost Kingdom
 * Swamp Hill, Mountainside Platform, Rocky Mountain Summit: Merge, insignificant checkpoint locations.

Metro Kingdom
 * Main Street Entrance: Merge, insignificant checkpoint location.
 * Rooftop Garden: Merge, it's just the top of some building that happens to have grass and a few bushes on it.
 * Construction Site (Super Mario Odyssey): Borderline, arguable minor landmark.
 * New Donk City Hall Plaza: Borderline. It's actually kind of nondescript outside of the New Donk City logo in the ground in front of the hall, and could maybe be merged with the hall, but BL just to be safe.
 * Part of a greater structure, merge with New Donk City Hall.
 * Mayor Pauline Commemorative Park: Keep, major landmark.
 * Outdoor Café: Borderline. Generically named, but at least it kind of stands out.
 * Heliport: Merge. It's just a heliport.
 * Isolated Rooftop: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Keep, major sub-area.

Snow Kingdom
 * Shiveria Town: Keep, it's a town.
 * Icicle Cavern, Hollow Crevasse, Wind-Chill Cavern, Snowy Mountain: Keep, they're all major sub-areas.
 * Snowline Circuit: Keep, race track and major sub-area.
 * Keep, race track, currently not on template but should get an article.
 * Snow Kingdom Clifftop: Merge, painting exit location.

Seaside Kingdom
 * Lighthouse: Keep, generically named, but it's still a notable landmark.
 * Underwater Tunnel to the Lighthouse: Keep, major sub-area.
 * Glass Palace: '''Keep, major landmark.
 * Rolling Canyon: Keep, unique area that stands out from the rest of the kingdom.
 * Hot Spring Island: Keep, minor landmark.
 * Keep, minor landmark with a minigame inside.
 * , : Merge, insignificant checkpoint locations.
 * Above Rolling Canyon: Merge, there's a Power Moon near here, but it's not a landmark or anything.
 * Diving Platform: Merge, painting exit location.

Luncheon Kingdom
 * Peronza Plaza: Keep, despite having "plaza" in its name, it's more of a town having unique music and everything.
 * Path to the Meat Plateau: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Meat Plateau: Merge, it's just the spot where you capture a piece of meat and Cookatiel takes you to the top of the volcano.
 * Start of the Peak Climb: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Top of the Peak Climb: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Salt Pile Isle: Merge, just a tiny platform in the lava that isn't noteworthy in any way.
 * Floating Sky Island: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Remote Island in the Lava: Merge. It has a painting to the Mushroom Kingdom and a couple of Power Moons, but it's generically named and not geographically distinct.

Bowser's Kingdom
 * Souvenir Shop: Merge. It's basically just a floating island with a Crazy Cap on it, but there's a back door with a secret room inside. And there are seats and stuff... Anyway, it's generically named, and we already have a Crazy Cap article.
 * Island in the Sky (Bowser's Kingdom): Merge, painting exit location.
 * Third Courtyard (Front), Third Courtyard (Rear),, Main Courtyard Entrance, , , , Beneath the Keep: Merge. They're basically different islands and parts of the castle. The Main Courtyard Entrance is where Hariet and Topper and are fought. They're generically named, and they're not really landmarks, just different parts of the level. They're exactly the sort of thing I would compare to SMG planets.
 * Merge: The RoboBrood battle arena. Some New Donkers show up and decorate it a bit later. Otherwise, same as above.

Moon Kingdom
 * Ringing-Bells Plateau: Merge. Nondescript checkpoint location, despite the fancy name.
 * Quiet Wall: Merge, it's just the entrance to the.
 * Ever-After Hill: Merge, totally featureless path to the Wedding Hall aside from a red carpet.
 * Wedding Hall: Keep. Major landmark, important story location.
 * Keep, major sub-area.

Mushroom Kingdom
 * Yoshi's House: Keep, already a notable subject before SMO.
 * Peach's Castle Main Entrance: Merge, it's just the entrance to Peach's Castle.
 * Mushroom Pond: Borderline, it's kinda small and the article has little content, but it's not generically named and it's distinct from the rest of the area.
 * Goomba Woods: Keep, geographically distinct location.

Dark Side
 * Rabbit Ridge Tower: Keep, major landmark and sub-area.

There are three options: keep the "keepers" only, include the "borderlines", or everything. Every kingdom article will have a "checkpoint locations" section added to it, sort of like how we handle planets from SMG, with most of the unnecessary articles' content being merged there. Note that this proposal is preliminary - if we keep the "borderline" articles, we can always weed out the ones we don't want with later proposals. Conversely, later proposals can call for the recreation of articles previously deemed unworthy. There is absolutely no perfect solution to this problem, since in several cases, what qualifies as "notable enough" to have a page is subjective. However, we need to draw a line, and I don't want to make 50 proposals just to merge SMO checkpoint flags.

Proposer: Deadline: September 28, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Only split the locations marked "keep"

 * 1) Per proposal.

Split "borderline" locations as well

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Seems the best idea to me for now.
 * 3) I think Fossil Falls Heights, Rocky Mountain Summit, Path to the Meat Plateau and Ringing Bells Plateau shouldn't be merged. Same with most of the locations in Bowser's Kingdom.
 * 4) Per Proposal.
 * 5) I believe this is the best option, as I agree that several of these articles cover areas that are not really notable. I do feel, however, that it makes sense to cover the "borderline" areas, as I feel the ones listed still have some importance. I am a little bit conflicted on the idea of merging every single location in Cascade Kingdom and Bowser's Kingdom, though.
 * 6) Per all. Also, having a list of checkpoints on their respective kingdom's page seems to be a good fit for the long-overdue coverage on each kingdom's Odyssey location.
 * 7) Per proposal

No checkpoint left behind

 * 1) Seems like the most consistent option to me. Even if some of these places aren't too important, they still make for decent articles. I also feel that a lot of information would be lost if these articles were to be merged.

Comments
Let me know if I missed anything - there's a lot to cover here. 00:53, September 21, 2021 (EDT)

@Hewer: Quite a few of them really don't make for decent articles. Most of the "island in the sky" articles are just "It's a platform in the sky. You get there through a painting in [other kingdom]. There's a Power Moon and a Checkpoint Flag. The end." While there's nothing inherently wrong with short articles, I think it's much more logical to just cover them on the kingdom articles like we do with SMG planets. A lot of these are really trivial, just being featureless platforms and random nondescript chunks of level no one would dream of splitting if SMO didn't name every checkpoint. Even then, a lot of the names are generic. Nintendo probably only named them all for player convenience; I seriously doubt they intended things like "Heliport" and "Top of the Big Stump" to be seen as very important locations. Not everything with a name deserves an article (e.g. the Banana Bird caves in DKC3). 18:28, September 21, 2021 (EDT)