Talk:Chancellor

Merge with Minister?
If the two characters are the same name in Japan, and even in the American games they both look very similar (moustache, green spots, etc.) and play similar roles in the goverment, should we merge the two pages into one? 09:40, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, there's no confirmation on them being the same character. They do look similar, though. If they had had the same name everywhere, then they could've been the same person (Thus I have merged the two Merlon pages). I don't know what to say. IMO, they seem like the same person(How'd he get demoted to Minister in PM, I dunno), but hard to say.
 * Previously, we've had this problem with Kamek. NoA named him Kamek instead of following NoJ and naming him after his species.  We wondered: should Kamek be merged with Magikoopa because his Japanese name is the same?  We decided not to based on Yoshi, Birdo, and Toad, major players who are named after their species.  This is a little different though.  Still, we didn't create separate articles for Princess Toadstool and Princess Peach.  14:48, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well... it's kind of hard, because as of phtsical appearance, the main thing is the design on their mushroom, and their Moustache. The mustaches are different colors in each game(What, did he get older in PM?), and as for mushroom design, there's just so many others with the same pattern. (As you can see, Herb T. even has the mustache going on). I think there still might be some info/proof lacking just yet to merge these articles. There might be an in-game hint of somekind, loosely connecting the two characters, but as for now, there's no sure way of knowing.


 * For now I think just linking to the other article is fine. I'd like to do as little conjecturing as possible. ;)  15:24, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The Minister and Chancellor have the same title in Japan - Kinoko Daijin (Mushroom Cabinet Minister). I think it's safe to say that they're the same character, and remember, if NoA tampers with it, he technically wasn't demoted. LinkTheLefty 15:14, 12 November 2008 (EST)
 * Plus, the only big difference in his design is the white mustache. He could have simply aged somewhat by Paper Mario. Remember, there are actually a lot more references to Super Mario RPG that got lost in translation either due to separate translators or legal reasons, so I think it's safe to say it's meant to be the same character. LinkTheLefty 22:10, 13 April 2010 (EDT)

Toadsworth
Since Stumpers wanted to know when Toadsworth was referred to as a chancellor: In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Goombella tells the player that Toadsworth is the Mushroom Kingdom's chancellor. At least she does so in the German translation (and the German translation is based on the Japanese original). --Grandy02 17:00, 12 November 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks, Grandy! I suppose it would make sense: the Chancellor becomes the Minister, and then Toadsworth took over his old position, perhaps?  19:23, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Differences between Chancellor and Toad Minister
List of differences between the Chancellor and the Toad Minister:
 * The Chancellor has a black moustache, while the Toad Minister has a white one.
 * The Chancellor's wearing is distinctively the same as the normal Toads, while the Toad Minister wears a green shirt with a red and yellow vest (very similar to the Grass Land King's vest in All-Stars and Game Boy Advance remake.

Their Japanese names are the same, but they have some differences in appearance. 05:53, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I think it would be speculating to merge the two just on Japanese name and on two similar roles from two very different games. 13:12, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Still, by this logic, one could make a case that Iggy Koopa is different from Iggy Koopa. Now saying that he was some sort of prototypical Toadsworth would be speculation, but this seems more inferential to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:14, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * We've been over this with the Wilt Shroom and the Dried Shroom before--just because the Japanese name is identical doesn't make for a merged page. The two have enough differences in roles to warrant differing pages.  ~Camwood777  (talk)  22:06, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Also, Needlenoses and Spiked Fun Guys have the same name as Pokey in Japanese, but have a different English name. -- 03:58, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

Merge this page with Minister
The two articles are too similar to remain separate, as proven by a list of differences above, which is:
 * The Chancellor has a black mustache, while the Toad Minister has a white one.
 * The Chancellor's wearing is distinctively the same as the normal Toads, while the Toad Minister wears a green shirt with a red and yellow vest (very similar to the Grass Land King's vest in All-Stars and Game Boy Advance remake.

Those differences are too little to have this article remain separate.

Proposer: Deadline: December 27, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 3, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 10, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Merge

 * 1) Per Proposal.
 * 2) I'm all for having only one proto-Toadsworth article, given the similarities between the two.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal. The two characters are likely the same.
 * 5) Per all. Paper Mario had a ton of callbacks to Super Mario RPG.
 * 6) Per all, especially Glowsquid below.

Don't Merge

 * 1) Per what Bazooka Mario and Camwood777 said above. I'm also not hyped in merging.
 * 2) The Japanese name and similar appearances are a start, but I'll only support if their personalities are mostly the same too (and similar in general to Toadsworth himself).
 * 3) I don't see the real need to merge the two compared to just having two separate pages that can deal with a short paragraph of similarities. It'll avoid speculation altogether, unlike merging.
 * 4) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 5) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 6) Changed my vote, as even if there are intended to be the same person, any potential speculation should be avoided. Per all.
 * 7) Per Bazooka Mario.

Comments
I'm not too hyped in merging. -- 02:04, 13 December 2018 (EST)
 * Green cap, gold-trimmed robes, same role, proto-Toadsworth, same JP name, same lack of plot importance, all in all pretty similar. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:17, 13 December 2018 (EST)
 * Then why is his mustache white? -- 02:04, 14 December 2018 (EST)
 * Because hair grays as people get older? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2018 (EST)

The only thing left for me to agree that they are one and the same is if the Minister has roughly the same recurring personality trait as the Chancellor (and, all in all, the same personality as Toadsworth): constantly worrying about Peach's safety. 10:12, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * Chancellor definitely does, and the few times Minister is seen, that seems to be his main concern. Admittedly, during that time, everyone's locked in the castle, so that'd sorta be his job anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * I don't think that's enough to draw me in. The Minister needs to be really worried about Peach almost all the time, not because he knows Peach is actually in mortal danger. 12:52, 18 December 2018 (EST)
 * He only appears at three parts of the game, one of which is with nearly every other NPC. You only get to speak with him in two instances, only one of which is repeatable after the following important event (and that instance also being very close to the end), so there's no telling how he feels for over 90% of the game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:03, 18 December 2018 (EST)

Along with other subjects like Star Hill and several recurring items, it's pretty clear that this character is one of the things that survived the transition from Super Mario RPG 2. Having said that, I've considered reapproaching the topic of having the Paper Mario subjects somehow split or distinguished from their counterparts due to Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam (I know it was put to a proposal, but it's incredibly awkward when our paper character articles list their first appearances as Paper Jam despite the name "Paper Mario" existing for the character since at least Super Smash Bros. Melee, not to mention certain other things of note like Paper Jam having Tower Power Pokey from the previous game and directly hinting at the then-upcoming paper Koopalings make it blatantly obvious that it's supposed to be the same Paper Mario in these games). Not sure how it would go about though - the cleanest method I thought of was maybe proposing to mimic the way Wookieepedia uses tabs for "Canon" and "Legends" articles, but that probably wouldn't be too feasible. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:03, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty We should (re)start the proposal IMO. Is it for splitting the Paper Mario counterparts from the original characters? -- 09:47, 16 December 2018 (EST)
 * That's the idea, with possibly an option to include items and locations (which could mean that Star Hill gets split three ways). LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2018 (EST)

Regarding "speculation," please recall that there is a difference between speculation and inference. If it were speculation, there'd be little-to-no ground to stand on, but with inference, a leap of logic can be made if there is enough evidence without an official statement of "these are the exact same characters." Please remember the principle of "show, don't tell." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:14, 20 December 2018 (EST)
 * "Enough evidence". There is not enough evidence. This is speculation on two characters on two very different games. Paper Mario may have nods to Super Mario RPG and original intention may be Paper Mario being a sequel to Super Mario RPG but Paper Mario turned out to be a very different game and has its own continuity and series. We can write information about those nods, but to say they're the same, I think, is a stretch. 20:44, 23 December 2018 (EST)
 * What happened to the "continuity" by Color Splash? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:55, 25 December 2018 (EST)
 * There was clearly a continuity in the original games though, which technically stuck around by Sticker Star thanks to the Goombella cameo. -- 22:46, 25 December 2018 (EST)
 * That continuity wasn't lacking in SMRPG, not only through this, but through things like Star Hill/Shooting Star Summit and the castle having a surrounding village. Back in those days, anything was basically assumed continuity with

every other thing, hence Luigi's diary mentioning a few of the random spinoffs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:49, 25 December 2018 (EST)

I have no idea why having the SMRPG and PM depictions of Star Hill on the same page was uncontroversial, but the idea that two characrters who have similar appearances, identical roles in the respective games they appear in, very similar personalities for their brief speaking role, one of them appearing in what was originally intended to be a sequel to the other character's game and which retains multiple overt and subtle links to its original lineage, and who have the same name in the source language of both games may infact be the same character is just too radical of a leap of logic to make. --Glowsquid (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2018 (EST)
 * The proposal had far less votes, for starters (4 votes), and the page history has shown that there has been action to merge the Star Hills too. I feel there's a consistency problem with how we deal with two otherwise different objects with shared names/traits with two failed attempts to merge Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom. I find it strange we don't have articles on the separate Star Hills in addition to a page about Star Hill location, but we do, as well as having a one big page on them, on the different Rainbow Roads, Luigi's Mansions, Mario Circuits, and so on... Anyhow, I find it far more useful if we had separate pages on the Star Hills or the Toad Towns in addition to one big page, as we've done with some recurring locations; it'll help cut down article bloat and we have more leeway for detail. But that's a different subject, and tbh, not sure if it's even applicable to Chancellor. 13:18, 4 January 2019 (EST)