MarioWiki:Proposals

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code.

This page observes the No-Signature Policy.

How To Rules
 * 1) If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and Writing Guideline proposals must include a link to the draft page.
 * 2) Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for Writing Guidelines and Talk Page Proposals, which run for two weeks. (All times GMT.)
 * 3) *For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
 * 4) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it. Agreeing with or seconding a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted.
 * 5) Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
 * 6) If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
 * 7) No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
 * 8) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
 * 9) All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week.
 * 10) If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes. If a proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week.
 * 11) Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
 * 12) All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
 * 13) Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation. However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that cancelled proposals must also be archived.
 * 14) If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
 * 15) There should not be proposals about creating articles on an underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
 * 16) Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
 * 17) No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.

Basic Proposal and Support/Oppose Format This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. - ===[insert a title for your Proposal here]=== [describe what issue this Proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the Wiki handles that issue]

Proposer: Deadline: [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created, at 23:59 GMT. (14 days for Writing Guidelines and Talk Page Proposals)

====Support====
 * 1) [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments==== - Users will now be able to vote on your Proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own Proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert " # at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's Proposal. If you are voting on your own Proposal, you can just say "Per my Proposal".

Talk Page Proposals All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the Wiki should still be held on this page.


 * For a list of all settled Talk Page Proposals, see here.

Rules
 * 1) All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom). All pages affected must be mentioned in the brief description, with the talk page housing the discussion linked to directly via "". If the proposal involved a page that is not yet made, use to communicate its title. The Deadline must also be included in the entry. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place  under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with.
 * 2) All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How To" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
 * 3) Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one. (All times GMT.)
 * 4) *For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
 * 5) Talk page proposals may be closed by the proposer at any time if both the support and the oppose sides each have fewer than five votes.
 * 6) The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Split Star Road into Star Road and Star Road (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars) (Discuss) Deadline: September 12, 2012 23:59 GMT
 * Split Whomp and Big Whomp. (Discuss) Deadline: September 26, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

New Features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Coming up with a more consistent standard for the Super Mario series
The Super Mario (series) page is not governed by a consistent definition for inclusion. In particular, the first two Super Mario Land games, Wario Land, and Yoshi's Island- all of which are included on the main Wikipedia page- are absent, and it seems to me that at least a few of these games would be included were the Mario Wiki community to agree upon a clear, consistent definition for what constitutes a Super Mario title. My proposed definition would be as follows:

A platformer, either 2D, 3D, or mixed; Made by Nintendo; Features "Super Mario" in the title; Stars Mario as a playable character

The major consequence of this new definition would be the inclusion of the first two Land games onto the Super Mario (series) page. Reasons that have been provided against this inclusion have, in my mind, been very weak. Examples would include:

"The game just doesn't *feel* like a Mario game." While it's true that the first two Super Mario Land games are unique, the same can be said of Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Sunshine, both of which are included on the (series) page.

"The two Super Mario Land titles were directed by Yokoi, not Miyamoto." Again, while this is true, it's a charge that could also be directed against other games on the (series) page, such as New Super Mario Bros. 2.

"The word 'Land' in the title tells us it's a separate sub-series." This isn't tenable for two reasons. First, it would open the door to take off many other games on the list (64, Sunshine, Galaxy) that don't carry the familiar Super Mario Bros. moniker; secondly, Super Mario 3D Land is included on the (series) page, meaning it would need to be removed in the name of consistency.

"The two Land games weren't included in the Anniversary Collection Booklet." Not only does the Mario Wiki make clear that the ACB carries no weight as a source for Super Mario canonicity, it would also leave us in the dark regarding later SM games. Should 3D Land be included? NSMB2? Leaning on the ACB defeats the purpose of establishing a clear definition for inclusion on the (series) page down the road.

It goes without saying that this isn't the only definition that could be used, but based on discussion with others, it seems to be the most reasonable first step. That said, I strongly encourage a reading of this topic from the Mario Boards, started by myself, which goes into some detailed discussion about the ambiguities on the (series) page and ways to fix it: http://www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=20682.0

Proposer: Deadline: September 18th, at 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Consistency and clarity are essential.

Oppose

 * 1) Per the arguments made in the thread you posted.
 * 2) LOL, Yoshi's Island and Wario Land aren't in there because THEY AREN'T MARIO GAMES. Just because they have "Super Mario" in the title does not mean its a Mario game.
 * 3) - Per my arguments in the thread (starting with this post), and in the Comments below (which is basically a summary of my posts).
 * 4) – Per Walkazo.

Comments
This should be a regular proposal not a TPP.

I figured I'd make a mistake like this, although I tried to follow the guidelines as best I could. Moved to where I *believe* is the correct place... fingers crossed.


 * Big long rant time: I'm trying to reproduce my key points from the thread, so that it's all in one place, and after this, I (hopefully) won't be making any more big blocks of text (I already delayed studying by two hours for this: if I keep it up, I'll totally fail my tests... not to mention, put you all to sleep).
 * First of all, that Anniversary booklet is just as valid a source of info as any other officially-licensed product of Nintendo and we should use it as such (not "lean" on it, just use it as one of many things to consider when determining the series). Also, the fact that it can't tell us anything about what happened after its publication would be a ridiculous reason to write it off.
 * Secondly, the argument that keeping the SML games based on their name means SM3DL has to be removed too is rather flawed. For one thing, it doesn't contain "Super Mario Land" in its name, and even if it did, separating it would mean everything else about the game was ignored. The game wasn't designed as a continuation of the SML subseries: the plot, enemies and power ups are all Super Mario series staples, and the level designs (indeed, the game itself) are meant as an hybrid between the free-roaming 3D platformers and the linear sidescrollers of the Super Mario subseries, while the name is an homage to SML, nothing more. Clumping games into series requires looking at the game as a whole; if they share a common element in their name, that gives us official grounds to say "yes, this is a series", but we don't have to, and on the flip side, games with differences in their names don't have to be kept apart, but it gives us the means to do so if the big picture suggests that we should. The "Super Mario Land" name gave us a means to separate the games (while the games themselves provide the reasons to separate them, which I describe in the third-last paragraph), and while one could try to separate "Super Mario Bros." by the same logic, they and the other "Super Mario whatever" platformers (2D, 3D or otherwise) have so many common elements, the logic of separating them ends at the names.
 * Now, that's not to say there aren't differences within the subseries, of course. SMB2 was recycled from another game so its plot is admittedly a departure from the usual "save Peach" story, and SMS changed things up a little too, but unlike SML, many of the new species, characters and other aspects of these games reappeared in later Super Mario games (i.e. Bob-Ombs, Pokeys, Ninjis, Pidgits, Bowser Jr., Toadsworth, Cataquacks and the Piantas), with a number of other things becoming fixtures in the Mario universe as a whole (i.e. Birdos, Shy Guys, Petey Piranha, Gooper Blooper, Isle Delfino, Shine Sprites and F.L.U.D.D.), whereas SML and SML2 only gave us Daisy (who's not in any Super Mario games) and Wario (only in one Super Mario game: SM64DS). So no, the same can't be said for SMB and SMSs' uniqueness compared to the SML titles.
 * SML may have had the same "one-track sidescroller through various worlds to save a princess" outline as the SMB games of its era, but it used completely different characters, enemies, setting and gameplay elements (the vehicles and Super Ball). SML2 may have then brought familiar Super Mario species into the mix, but it had a whole new plot and a new "choose the world you want to do first" approach to the game. And, by the time we get to SML3, the subseries has morphed into a while new subseries: the Wario Land subseries, with a new protagonist along with a new plot, new enemies, new setting and new characters. WL:SML3 still has "Super Mario" in its name, but it's definitely not a Super Mario game anymore, and rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out while the others remain nestled in the Super Mario subseries, giving them their own series allows the last installation to remain with the first two. And the three SML games should be kept together, not because of their names, and certainly not because of their gameplay (seeing as each one is radically different from the next), but because they are explicitly linked together by plot, with the "Story" section of the SML2 manual referencing SMLs plot, and SML3s manual referencing SML2 by name. That's more than enough reason to keep the three games together, and it's also another difference between them and the Super Mario games, which don't make nearly as much effort (if any at all) to link themselves to one another.
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * SML may have had the same "one-track sidescroller through various worlds to save a princess" outline as the SMB games of its era, but it used completely different characters, enemies, setting and gameplay elements (the vehicles and Super Ball). SML2 may have then brought familiar Super Mario species into the mix, but it had a whole new plot and a new "choose the world you want to do first" approach to the game. And, by the time we get to SML3, the subseries has morphed into a while new subseries: the Wario Land subseries, with a new protagonist along with a new plot, new enemies, new setting and new characters. WL:SML3 still has "Super Mario" in its name, but it's definitely not a Super Mario game anymore, and rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out while the others remain nestled in the Super Mario subseries, giving them their own series allows the last installation to remain with the first two. And the three SML games should be kept together, not because of their names, and certainly not because of their gameplay (seeing as each one is radically different from the next), but because they are explicitly linked together by plot, with the "Story" section of the SML2 manual referencing SMLs plot, and SML3s manual referencing SML2 by name. That's more than enough reason to keep the three games together, and it's also another difference between them and the Super Mario games, which don't make nearly as much effort (if any at all) to link themselves to one another.
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -

Re: KoopaK's opposition -> Respectfully, you've failed to grasp the opening arguments. The point of this proposal is that the Super Mario (series) page needs to adopt a clear and consistent standard- whatever that standard may be. Perhaps you believe the Super Mario moniker is enough to constitute a SM game; perhaps Mario needs to be a playable character; perhaps you have a radically different standard in mind. What needs to be implemented is a standard, and the one I've provided- which only adds the two Super Mario Land games, not Wario Land or Yoshi's Island- seems like a small but productive first step towards some much-needed consistency.

Re: Walkazo's opposition -> I've addressed your points at length elsewhere, so rather than repeat myself, I'll simply target the few concrete points you make (as that wall of text is absolutely swimming in ambiguity and subjectivity save for a handful of arguments) to demonstrate why there's little substance to your multi-variable, "cladogram" approach.

1) The ACB booklet is either a) an authoritative source for determining which games are SM games, or b) not an authoritative source for determining which games are SM games. There is no middle ground. Because the Mario Wiki makes clear that no source is more "canon" than any other, the necessary conclusion is that the ACB should be treated as non-authoritative for the purpose of canonized compilation. And again, even if it were treated as authoritative, it would still be silent on later games- meaning we'd need to come up with a clear definition anyway.

2) The rest of your rambling boils down to two points of focus, neither of which are remotely objective: feel and impact. The difference between Super Mario Land and Super Mario Bros. 2, you say, is that the latter introduced new things that became staples of the series; it doesn't matter if SML fits the common-sense criteria for a Super Mario game (name, genre, playable character, developer), since, according to your definition, the game didn't have enough lasting impact to warrant inclusion. If you want to be consistent, however, this feel / impact approach is still going to demand some pretty major changes on the Super Mario (series) page. Take Super Mario Sunshine, for example: doesn't feel a thing like Mario 64, and didn't have a lasting impact on the Super Mario series. Why is it on the series page? Or take a game like Super Mario Land 2: feels very similar to a traditional SM platformer, and did have a lasting impact on the Mario franchise in the form of Wario. Or what about a game like 3D Land? The series has never had a hybrid 2D/3D platformer before, and as the game introduced little new- it was largely a SMB3 homage- those same "feel" and "impact" arguments could be leveled here as well. There's a woeful lack of consistency in your approach. Which brings me to my third point...

3) You continue even now, weeks after our first exchange, to ignore my requests for providing any clear definition for what games to include on the Super Mario (series) page. Leaning on rhetorical flourishes like "Consider all the factors!" may make your arguments persuasive to some, but it also makes them hollow, and if the Mario Wiki values clarity and consistency- and I can't imagine any reason it wouldn't- you need to make your standard clear. Is your standard complicated? That's fine. Is your standard multi-variable? That's fine. Tell us what it is.

4) Lost in Walkazo's ramblings is that I'm *not* advocating including Wario Land / Yoshi's Island into the Super Mario (series) page. Only the first two Super Mario Land games will be added. I do wish people would make sure to read the opening post carefully before commenting or voting.

Just one question: Isn't any criteria we come up with for determining what belongs in the Super Mario series inevitably going to be fan based? I know Nintendo cannot be expected to fill in the gaps every single time, but still it seems like we're just accepting/rejecting things into the Super Mario series based on our personal perceptions of what a Super Mario series game should be. I don't think it's a really important page, it's in that weird zone between Mario (series) and the respective sub-series like the Super Mario Bros. (series). I'm not arguing whether or not Nintendo considers Super Mario to be a separate series (because it's pretty clear that they do), but given the ambiguity what belongs in the series, I wouldn't mind if it was scrapped altogether.-- 00:53, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

Re: Knife -> You're right in that any standard we use is going to be unofficial, but assuming the Super Mario (series) page stays up (since this particular proposal doesn't question the merits of the page), the choice for now is one between a) an explicit, consistent definition, or b) something else. You'll also note that, as of writing, no standard has been given by the other side. Which means there are only a few possibilities for explaining the status quo: 1) There isn't currently a consistent definition for the Super Mario (series) page; 2) There is a consistent definition, but individual members are unwilling or unable to make it publicly explicit; 3) There is a standard, but it isn't consistent. Those voting for the Opposition should seriously reflect on how allowing this kind of ambiguity (whereas even the main Wikipedia page adopts a clear, consistent standard) will reflect on the integrity of the Mario Wiki, since I can't for the life of me think of any other such list that would go to such trouble to avoid definitional clarity.


 * Sorry about the Yoshi's Island thing (including it was partially me covering all the bases, but I also forgot about your third line by the time and was just using the opening line as reference by that point), but I didn't think you were trying to include Wario Land in there: hence I said "rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out", i.e. rather than your strategy, which would merge the first two into the Super Mario subseries and leave the third one out. But speaking of extra games, doesn't the "made by Nintendo" criteria exclude Super Mario Bros. Special and All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros., since, to my knowledge, they were just licensed by Nintendo? That point either needs clarification or you need to add those games to the list of changes. You also need to start using "canon" the same way as the wiki: being "canon" just means that it's official - it has nothing to do with being authoritative, and it does not come into play when dividing up the official info into subseries (from Canonicity: "The canon of a franchise is a system of classification that separates official media products from unofficial media products [...] Any officially licensed appearance [...] are considered official [and] all official sources can be considered canonical and should be treated as such by all users [...] However, this does not mean any source of information is more canonical than the other. In no way should the organization of wiki articles be considered an assertion of what is canon in the Mario series."). The booklet is official so it is canon and we can use that information, however it is not all or nothing, since we still have the ability to make organizational decisions given the sometimes-conflicting info at hand; that's why we can separate things like King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine) from King Boo: the English name's the same, but everything else is different, so we decided they are different, and used the fact that their Japanese names are different as official grounds for splitting the page accordingly (both names are "canon", but one makes more organizational sense than the other). As for the rest of the discussion, I stand by my argument that what constitutes a Super Mario game can't be boiled down to a single elegant line; I agree that the games need to be (officially-licensed) platformers that include Mario as a playble character and which have "Super Mario" in their names in order to be Super Mario games, but the standard should not end at that. The enemy/character/whatever roster, plot and gameplay (power ups, stage select, whatever) are just as important to consider as those "must have" criteria (and some of it, like how many enemies reappear, could even be boiled down to cold hard numbers and not just qualitative observations), but either way, I disagree that looking at all the variables and making grouping decisions based on the number of similarities and differences that occur in those variables from game to game should be written off as inconsistent "rambling". The more info that is taken into account the better, because the resulting group members will have more in common with all the other members than if a broader definition was used and included less-closely-related subjects. Finally, regarding Knife's comment, having the "Super Mario" games grouped together is very useful for History sections as it keeps the main, popular platformers together, up at the top of the Histories, rather than letting the newer sets of games get buried under all the random spin-offs.-

Allow quotes on non-character articles
The templates and  have an important purpose on character pages, where they give a brief insight to the character's personality and/or traits. However, there are many non-character article subjects where a relevant quote can apply. But as per an unwritten, recommended guideline, these templates are restricted to character articles. I feel that we have a greater extent for the use of quotes beyond the character aspect. On a personal account, I have added quotes to non-character articles where I saw relevance, and they were promptly removed (see here and here), with the collective reason for the removals being the template is reserved for character articles. I wish to propose against the overall guideline for the quote templates. I believe if there is a readily available, strictly relevant quote that pertains to a specific non-character article, then it should have a place on that article.

Proposer: Deadline: September 19, 23:59 GMT

Support (allow quotes in accordance to the described regulations)

 * Per my proposal.
 * Per YoshiKong.

Comments
Maybe it's okay to put quotes on character and item articles, but having them at the top of a game article seems tacky to me IMO. But as far as I know we don't have an enforced policy about it either way.-- 09:46, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.