Talk:Pale Piranha

Merge into Piranha Plant
There has been a translation inconsistency in English concerning the Piranha Plant variants in Paper Mario: TTYD. This enemy, which was named Pale Piranha in the English version, was just known as "Pakkun Flower", i.e. Piranha Plant, in the original Japanese version, and subsequently in all translated versions except English.

On the other hand, the enemy simply known as "Piranha Plant" that later appears in the Pit of 100 Trials was known as "Killer Pakkun" in the Japanese version, and subsequently according names in all translated versions except English.

It is apparent to me that there has been a mix-up in the English version and that "Pale Piranha" is a mistaken name for what should just be called Piranha Plant. On the other hand, I will separately propose that the "Killer Pakun" is split from the Piranha Plant article to a new page "Piranha Plant (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)".

Proposer: Deadline: April 3 2010, 23:59

Merge

 * 1) - For the same reasons that Yo'ster Isle will be merged with Yoshi's Island.
 * 2) Looks like the English have trouble translating.
 * 3) - Everything else is being merged/split based on the Japanese name, so this should too.
 * 4) - Per all, the creators intended it to be a differently coloured regular Piranha Plant, which is also reflected by non-English localisations.
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6) - Per All.
 * 7) - We're not about to split underground goomba(fan name) in SMB and Goomba.And per the reason given by Cobold.
 * Per Cobold

No Merge

 * 1) Haven't you noticed that the Pale Piranha and the Piranha Plant are different colours? So they should be different species.

Comments
@Commander Code-8: This is by far not the only enemy appearing with different colour schemes. They are also both red and green Piranha Plants, especially in their early appearances, yet they don't have separate articles. The game creators intended "Pale Piranhas" to be normal Piranha Plants that only changed their colour due to their environment, nothing more. --Grandy02 17:42, 2 April 2010 (EDT)

STOP
Please quit messing up this article.A pale piranha is a sub-species of piranha plant.There are actual Piranha plants in Paper Mario:TTYD Dull bones are not Dry bones.Dark Puffs are not Ruff Puffs.Pale Piranhas are not Piranha Plants.
 * See the proposal above? Because of it, Pale Piranha gets merged to Piranha Plant. If you disagree, make a proposal to split them.

Split Pale Piranha and Piranha Plant
This needs to be fixed.Pale Piranha needs its own article.It is a subspecies of Piranha Plant,much like Dull Bones is a sub-species of Dry Bones.Their stronger relatives both appaer later in the game.Just Because the Piranha Plants in the pit of 100 trials are stronger,they are stll garden-variety piranha plants.According to Goombella's tattles,(which is more offficial than the japanese names)The Pale Piranhas are a sub-species and the normal colored ones are normal piranha plants.

Proposer: Deadline: May 10, 2011, 23:59 (GMT)

Support

 * 1) They are not the same thing,per my proposal.on the Tattle,Goombella Clearly says this is a subspecies.Subspecies get their own article.
 * 2) Per the proposer.
 * 3) The proposal above mentioned "all stubs must die" thing. Per proposal (current).
 * 4) Per the proposal that got the DKCR enemies split.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) Per the proposal that got them merged.
 * 2) Per above.
 * 3) Dry Bones and Dull Bones aren't the same since they have different stats. However, these shouldn't be split because Piranha Plants weren't in PM:TTD unless you count those poison ones.
 * 4) - This proposal does not make any points that rebut the decision made in the previous one. The reasoning behind the old proposal is much sounder as in this one. Therefore, the old decision should be retained.
 * 5) Per above proposal and per all.
 * 6) per Edo, and also the proposal say to merge the Piranha Plant from PM: TTYD into it, but it's already in the article.
 * 7) I don't see any issue with the two articles merged and why. Per above.
 * 8) Per Edo.
 * 9) - The Pale Piranha is clearly said to be a "subspecies" of Piranha Plant, and it has a different name to boot. However, the TTYD Piranha Plant is also a unique "type" of Piranha Plant, and also has a different name in many languages. Therefore, the best thing to do would be to give BOTH enemies separate pages, and just talk about how TTYD has four kinds of Piranha Plants on the main Piranha Plant page. This will be consistent with how we've dealt with various other differently designed enemies that have the same names in some languages, but different names in others: we go with the language(s) that make the most sense (the "Japan is always right" idea used in the old proposal is outdated; Japan is still right about the "Killer Pakkun", but I think English is right about the "Pale Piranha"). This will require a new TPP, and in the meantime, the less changes made, the better: this group of articles is muddled enough as is...
 * 10) Per all.

Comments
Moved proposal here and corrected format...I think...

it's invalid rule 8 says No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.


 * Cobold's proposal was made on April 3rd 2010, over a year ago. This proposal is valid.

oh i need to read dates better comment retracted

I think the japanese stuff should be only featured in trivia,if that.According to the USA and Europe,theyre different things,according to Japan,theyre not.Now someone tel me,what is the rule about the countrie's accuracy on the information?


 * See point 1 here.

According tomthat,it should be fixed.
 * If there is a conflict of whether to use the American source, European source, or Australian source for naming, the region which had the game released first will be the preferred source. Obviously, there is a conflict over which translation to use. Japan released the game first, hence the reliance upon the Japanese translation.

i would also like to site the Boomerang Bro. proposal the King Boo Proposal and the Spookum proposal if it would please this random collection of Mario fans

actually they were,they were found on floor 80-89 in the pit of 100 trials,which ironically,has its own article>:( Does it really matter where it came out first.Most of us play the american version and european version,so thats what it should be.
 * Yes, it does matter. This is an international wiki, not the American and European Mario wiki, and please, remember to sign your comments.

two things A: is Kaptain K Rool's vote invalid since he's currently blocked and B: you say this is an english wiki well by that logic Pat the Bat, Skelton Koopa and Mini- Ninji should all have there own articles because according to Hotel Mario that's what they were called

Also here's the tattle on the Piranha Plant from Paper Mario Thousand year door: That's a Piranha Plant. In fact, I think this is the strongest type of them all. Max HP is 15, Attack is 9 and Defense is 0. Its Attack power is absurdly high... It may look like a normal Piranha Plant, but don't be fooled! It's super-tough! If we get beaten by a flower, we'll never hear the end of it, know what I mean? im no expert but the fact that it says looks like a normal Piranha Plant combined with the fact that they are called Killer Piranhas every where else implies to me that they are not the same thing, also the fact that apparently Japan which released the game calls the pale variety Piranha plants and the fact that they are pale could be explained the same way you explain why the Blue Goomba's in Super Mario Bros. are not combined with Gloombas

@goombasshoe Will you quit arguing with me?its really annoying.Do you think that a Pale Piranha Plant is a Normal Piranha Plant,but a normal one thats found in the Pit of 100 trials isnt?well either way,why dont we just quit arguing and talk normal?

Well why not create an article for both then?I think the wiki is better with more articles and merging only hurts it.So what you just said,you convinced me that neither are normal piranha plants.

why because im able to use facts to prove you wrong and this is a debate and no i do not think pale piranhas should have there own article i think they are just sun deprived plants like the sun deprived Goomba's

That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants. This colorless subspecies is adapted to Boggly Woods. Ah, the wonders of nature! If you try to jump on them, they'll totally chomp on you. this is the tattle.Its a subspecies.

@Goomba's Shoe 15: I asked Walkazo a similar question, though it concerned Rosalina'sSoulMate on the Mario Sports Mix FA proposal. Apparently, blocked users have had their votes kept as valid in the past.

He was blocked from editing only.
 * I made a proposal about this on the main proposals page. So after that passes, we can decide.

Well just leave it until the proposal is passes.Also,what about the Blooper in Paper Mario TTYD.Is that called just "blooper" in japanese?Because thats no normal blooper.

the boss yeah it's just a blooper

It sure is big.even bigger than Gooper Blooper

which blooper because are you referring to the boss from thousand year door cause he's just a blooper in all dubs

yup.that blooper.

@Walkazo thats and even better idea
 * If you want to propose that idea instead, you should ask for this TPP to be deleted. Otherwise, we'd have to wait a month to make another TPP, as it'd be overturning this one's decision to do nothing (Rule 8). Wanting fix the pages ASAP with a different TPP is valid enough reason to have this one deleted (Rule 9). - 14:48, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

A pale piranha is a totally different subspecies. I know it's weird that the normal Piranha is rarer, only found in Pit-of-100-Trials, and has massive attack power of 9! doesn't mean it's a different Piranha, & doesn't mean Pale Piranhas are the same thing.

Wait...
EDIT: Never mind, found the answer. Binarystep (talk) 20:02, 24 March 2015 (EDT)

TRUST ME
Hello, I've been a fan of PMTTYD since it came out 11 years ago. But Pale Piranhas are the regular Piranha Plants. No enemy can have the same original japanese game. And regular exist--these are them.

I'm many years old, please ask me if you want, but please believe me, I'm not lying, this is the answer.

If you want the COMPLETE answer, please ask me OK? --James Blonde (talk) 00:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
 * I would just look at the above proposal for why Pale Piranha is separated. 02:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Re-re-re-merge into Piranha Plant yet again: the Squeakwel
This is a case of inconsistent localization, to the point of even being inconsistent with itself. To wit, see here for their tattles across each localization. The only other localization to distinguish this at all from the typical Packun is European Spanish, and even it states that it is the exact same thing with a color adaptation for the forest. Additionally, let's look at the English tattle: That's a Pale Piranha. You know about these guys. The famous Piranha Plants. This colorless subspecies is adapted to Boggly Woods. Ah, the wonders of nature! Max HP is 4, Attack is 2, and Defense is 0. If you try to jump on them, they'll totally chomp on you. Note that this seems to be confused with itself, alternating between calling them the very same plants Mario is familiar with and a "colorless subspecies." On that note, it should be emphasized that "" does not necessarily mean the same thing as how the wiki misused it for years. Additionally, given that this is the localization that gave us such gems as Spinies coming from pipes, taking care of Bubu, giving Toad Town several different names, and forcing us into the endless Chestnut King debate, it's clear that it was a pretty slapdash job at times.

Anyways, this is clearly just as much the normal Piranha Plant as Boggly Woods' Cleft is the normal Cleft; related is how the final Cleft type in the game used the previous normal coloration.

EDIT: Apparently at least some people didn't see the link I put up top, so I'll go ahead and put the other tattles here.

As can be seen, the other languages are adamant this is the same plant from previous adventures. As such, the reference to Mario being familiar with them in the tattle is absolutely a reference to the specific enemy being tattled, and the "subspecies" bit is solely an awkward tack-on for the English localization (or even spitballing from Goombella herself) that ultimately means diddly-squat.

Proposer: Deadline: August 24, 2021, 23:59 (GMT)

Support

 * 1) Let's stem this issue, pipe up with the localization's problems, and leaf things in the proper order. Then this will stop gnawing at me. But this pales compared to some of the other issues...
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per.
 * 4) TTYD has a massive amount of mistakes in its English translation. Per all.
 * 5) The game's original script saying they're Piranha Plants, and the Clefts having a similar situation.
 * 6) The other scripts make it sound like a "Goombas are blue in the underground" levels rather than a wholly separate species.
 * 7) A closer look at their name across multiple languages shows that they are intended to be the game's "vanilla" Piranha Plants. Per all.
 * 8) Note that, while Piranha Plant's guidance in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate does not list some of the most obscure Piranha Plant variants like Tane Packun from Mario vs. Donkey Kong or the Piranha Sprout from Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, it technically does not skip any Piranha Plants that also debut within the same game (barring minor dub oversights). Seeing as how it bothers to bring up Killer Packun but not Pale Piranha, the latter would accordingly not be considered a new variant in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (in retrospect, this logic also means that River and Stalking Piranhas being mentioned but not Ice Piranha should beg another shot at Frost Piranha and, potentially, Lava Piranha and Petit Piranha, but that bridge can be crossed later). Additionally from previous discussion: the Tattle Log order already points to Pale Piranha being the "base" version of Piranha Plant in this game over the "Piranha Plant" enemy, much like how the now similarly-monochrome Cleft is listed before Moon Cleft. Renaming Piranha Plant to Pale Piranha and inventing the "subspecies" bit was a fairly late decision by the English localizers, so in essence, this is basically another flavor of the old Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy situation; if this proposal fails, the monochrome Cleft and blue Spike Top are worth another look for consistency's sake, given that their original colors were given to semi-variants as well. We shouldn't have it both ways now.

Oppose

 * 1) It's not like regular Piranha Plants in this game are only referred to as "Pale Piranhas". The game calls this "a colorless subspecies adapted to Boggly Woods", which pretty much shows that this isn't fully the standard Piranha Plant. I am aware that there is another type of Piranha Plant enemy in this game as well which looks like a normal Piranha Plant, but even that is stated to not be a normal one in the tattle. The line "you know about these guys" could also refer to the entire Piranha Plant line in general. I'm sorry, but to me this is just a case of making the Japanese name the ultimate decider which I do not agree with.
 * 2) I think more thought needs to be put into this. Interlanguage names along do not always constitute a merge.
 * 3) Per Keyblade Master.
 * 4) Per Keyblade.
 * 5) The game referring to Pale Piranhas as "the famous Piranha Plants" was only a reintroduction for the species as a whole, as Pale Piranhas are the first ones to be encountered. Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per Keyblade.


 * 1) The proposal argues a lot of semantics, but to get down to brass tacks, the enemy's name and appearance as well as the "subspecies" qualifier are enough to distinguish it from basic Piranha Plants.

Comments
@Keyblade Master: You could use that argument to support every inconsistent localization, though. The Flower Fields Monty Moles are stated to be the same as regular Monty Moles in the English version of Paper Mario, but we still have a separate page for them. 11:34, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * Those have different stats and a different pallete however. I remember this wiki even split the stronger enemies from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga before the game's remake came out when their English names were identical to their weaker counterparts, but of course had different stats and designs. Of course, now the remake gave those enemies distinct English names, but my point was from before then. 11:47, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * What about Spookums and Snifits from Super Mario RPG? 11:57, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * The Snifits are notable individuals, and Spookums are one of the few instances where the different English name is the only thing that makes them seem like a different variation, whereas everything else (behaviour and appearance) is the same. Comparing the latter with Pale Piranha, as I said Piranha Plants aren't just referred to as "Pale Piranhas" throughout TTYD, these have their greyish color to differentiate them alongside a different English name and calling them adapted to Boggly Woods, not to mention the game even has standard-colored Piranha Plants appearing in the audience. In case you bring up the Piranha Plants in the Pit of 100 Trials to counter that, the tattle for those states "It may look like a normal Piranha Plant but don't be fooled", so enough said on that. 12:21, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * Consider how Pale Piranha was not brought up in English SSBU despite Killer Packun being brought up in JP SSBU. Also, it's not just "the Japanese name." It's the name in every language other than English and Euro-Spanish. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:04, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * Pale Piranhas have a unique palette for the same reason as the Clefts in Boggly Woods, and the "subspecies" bit was invented by the English localizers, much like the idea that Dark Lakitus throw pipes. If the English version of TTYD made the unique decision to refer to Clefts as "Grey Clefts" or something, would you want them split? 09:59, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * I get the feeling now you're just trying to get under my skin here, which is one thing I seriously do not approve. 10:06, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * There's a fine gap between "debate" and "trying to annoy"... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:12, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * That isn't my intention at all. 20:28, August 19, 2021 (EDT)

My main gripe is still the fact that's it's referred to as a subspecies adapted to a certain place. 15:07, August 10, 2021 (EDT)
 * And again, "subspecies" does not necessarily mean the same thing as how the wiki misused it for a long time. The other languages do call it an adaptation, but the "subspecies" bit is purely an invention of the English localization, which itself is demonstrably shoddy at best. Additionally, I personally believe that the same can be applied for many types of color variations we do not split; note that red was treated as a secondary color for P. Plant after the standard green until Super Mario World (or going by artwork, Land). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:20, August 10, 2021 (EDT)

@Danny That's ignoring the original Japanese script (and all those other translations), where they are described as "the familiar Packun Flower." It's referring to the type being encountered, not the whole family. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:15, August 10, 2021 (EDT)

@Glowsquid: The "underground Goomba" case isn't a good parallel. That is a superficial recolour based on the enemy's surroundings. In RPGs like TTYD, colour-coding typically serves to make an enemy immediately stand out as having distinct stats and/or powers from their closer kin, and I'd wager that is what applies to Pale Piranhas. 19:22, August 18, 2021 (EDT)
 * Explain Cleft and the Japanese/French/German/Italian names, then, as well as how this has the same basic properties as the Forever Forest Piranhas in the previous game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:23, August 18, 2021 (EDT)
 * "That is a superficial recolour based on the enemy's surroundings." Yes, and so is this plant. I assume that's why that comparison was made. Blinker (talk) 07:40, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * I would have hoped that was obvious enough. Indeed, the monochrome scheme was specifically chosen because the surrounding area is monochrome. I just tried to explain that these recolours are typically also driven by gameplay-related principles in RPGs. 08:22, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * The Attack and HP stats of the Pale Piranhas are actually slightly lower than for the Piranha Plants in Paper Mario. 08:49, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * ...And the Attack and HP stats of SPM piranha plants is also lower than the PM piranha plants. Does that mean we split the SPM piranha plants? Somethingone (talk) 08:54, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * I only said that to correct Koopa con Carne's statement a bit actually. Not to mention SPM is done in a completely different style anyway. 08:58, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * You are correct, statistics don’t transfer between TTYD and SPM due to the latter’s largely divergent game mechanics, so there’d be no reason to split the SPM Piranha Plant. I think it’s fair to say, anyhow, that stats shouldn’t be the sole driving force for or against distinguishing between two enemy iterations, since they’re always subject to change. (I took Doc’s statement for granted and didn’t bother to research, but I amended my vote so it doesn’t reflect on anything related to stats.) Still, to return to the Pale Piranha conundrum, I think in this case localization is key to how we handle the enemy’s identity: more than half of its names across different languages (going by what’s presented on the page; I haven’t played the game yet) purport it’s a generic Piranha Plant, with only the English and Spanish ones making any sort of distinction. It’s pretty clear the latter couple are doozies made on a whim. 10:38, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * Ye, stats between PM64 and TTYD don't necessarily correlate either, having more to do with where on the difficulty curve they are encountered. Look at Magikoopa, for example. In Packun's case, it's a Chapter 3 enemy in PM64 and a Chapter 2 enemy in TTYD, so it'll naturally be lower in TTYD. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:38, August 19, 2021 (EDT)