Talk:Super Mario (series)

Keep this page? Or no.
DELETED

I wouldn't consider this a TPP, so here is what this is.

Ok. So do we really need to have a Super Mario (series) page? The Mario series page has better coverage on the games in this article. So, keep this page? Or don't keep this page.

Proposer: Deadline: July 20, 2011, 23:59

Keep

 * 1) we have articles on every other sub-series so why not have one on this
 * 2) – Per Goomba's Shoe15.
 * 3) Not like I spent an hour working on it. BTW, there is a construction template, I'm still working on it. It's kinda like the DK (series) page.
 * 4) Sure.

No Keep

 * 1) Per Supremo78

Comments
The Super Mario series is not and shouldn't be considered a sub-series. In Japan, Mario is called Super Mario. Also, over there, games such as Super Mario Bros. are considered in the Mario series.

I just want to point out, this is the biggest sub-series in the Mario series. I'm still working on it! If this fails, the Mario Baseball series will be merged with the Mario series, as well as all of the other series. And @Supremo78, on the Mario series page, one of the sub-series is called the Super Mario series. 16:38, 6 July 2011 (EDT)


 * Well still. I don't think we need to make one of these. But if this fails, sorry for my stupidity.
 * @Supremo your vote is invalid cause you have no reason
 * "Well Still" isn't a very convincing counter-argument either. 16:42, 6 July 2011 (EDT)
 * How are you perring yourself if there is not valid reason? 16:44, 6 July 2011 (EDT)
 * He can per himself if he made the proposal he's peering his proposal
 * Rather than deleting it right off the bat, why not let it run it's course as an article under construction. Of course at this point in time the Mario series page is going to have better information.
 * Okay then. This is my opinion. The Super Mario (series) shouldn't be created partly because its just like a mini Mario (series). It already says that the games on the Mario series page that those games are in the Super Mario series. And really, people don't consider there is a Super Mario series. When they think about Super Mario Bros., they think Mario (series), not Super Mario (series). And like said before, this is like a mini Mario series page. If you still want to have it, make it a subsection of the Mario series article.

There already is a subsection in the Sub-series section on the page. It is not a mini Mario series due to the fact it features all of the games with "Super Mario" in it. 16:49, 6 July 2011 (EDT)


 * I have no more argument, so I remove my vote.

Shouldn't Super Mario Land and Super Mario 64 DS be added to this article? Bspald95 (talk) 16:41, 28 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Never mind. Bspald95 (talk) 17:41, 5 September 2012 (EDT)

Deletion Template
If anyone puts up a delete template again, I'm goanna flip! 17:04, 6 July 2011 (EDT)
 * Who deleted section on playable characters. 17:10, 6 July 2011 (EDT)

Ports
Do you really think that the virtual console ports should be treated as separate games? I mean, just because Super Mario Bros. is released on the Wii, that doesn't mean it's a new game in the series. I think that we should remove the virtual console section from here and make the 30 games in this series become 23.

-IGGY7735

I counted and there should only be fourteen.

SM3DL's Location
Shouldn't Super Mario 3D Land be in the Super Mario Land series article.


 * No, since the game is considered to be in the mainstream series, not the Super Mario Land series.

Should Super Paper Mario be in this? It has mostly platforming levels.--Yoshidude99 16:36, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

No, SPM should not be in this. A Super Mario game is basically a Mario 100% platformer with the name Super Mario in it that has no sign to be in another sub-series, and SPM fits NO part of that description.

New 3D Super Mario
I read on a website that a new 3D super Mario is being made for the Wii U. Here it is. http://www.ign.com/games/super-mario-wii-u/wii-u-112718

I got 2 more sites. Here they are. http://wiiugo.com/?s=yoshiaki+koizumi+confirms+Super+Mario http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/07/wii-u-mario-zelda/all/1

I added the first one to the Mario game series.

Electrical Bowser jr. (talk) 10:01, 28 July 2012 (EDT)Electrical Bowser jr.

Yet another site, this ones talking about a leak that they're making a 3D Super Mario called Super Mario World 3. http://wiiugo.com/leaked-details-about-super-mario-world-3/


 * That has yet to be confirmed by Nintendo before it has a place here.

I think it's SMS2, because they are making a sequal to Luigi's Mansion and it seems ilogical to not make a sequal to a comparable game that was more popular in the first place. If you look in the beta elements section of SMG there is a sprite of Mario from SMS; some say it's a place holder, but I say otherwise... Also, Club Nintendo Fans and other Mario fans a like have been demanding a sequal for a long time. The WiiU would be a perfect fit (Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmhedjQmx10 on this theory.) I am NOT comfirming this, but it seems more than likley.. --Lcc98 (talk) 13:25, 31 January 2013 (EST)Lcc98 talk


 * 07:25, 1 December 2012 (EST)


 * The title may be fake, but we can't deny the fact that Nintendo is already working on a new 3D Mario game for the Wii U which is the upcoming Super Mario installment. Nintendo developers (the Super Mario Galaxy team that worked on Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Super Mario 3D Land) already stated they are.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 10:57, 1 December 2012 (EST)

The Lost Levels
I'm not, underline not, saying we have to get rid of the Japanese Super Mario 2, but is considered an official part of the series in America? My reason being is that it's not mentioned AT ALL in the Super Mario 25th Anniversary Limited Edition extras and it's not in the 25th Anniversary video (both American version). Also, it never got an official release other than All-Stars and Virtual Console. KoopaKiller13 (talk) 19:57, 19 August 2012 (EDT)

I don't really see why t matters whether or not its an official part of the American series, because where was Mario created? EmperorLuigi115 (talk) 12:59, 22 September 2012 (EDT)

SMW2: Yoshi's Island a main game?
In the same interview Miyamoto confirmed the Koopalings weren't Bowser's children, he also made an interesting statement about SMW2: YI, he commented the game was initially intended to be part of the [main] Mario series, before the Yoshi series actually begun. According to him, the developers consider this a game of the [main] Super Mario series.

New Argumented Reality Mario Themed Game
Check This Link to see the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v8Tub3gtew This new Mario game has backwards compatibility

that's not something we should put on this page, say that on Mario (series) cause that has nothing to do with the main series.

Super Mario Land?
Is there any specific reason the Super Mario Land games are not considered part of the main series? 68.9.233.144 05:39, 4 July 2013 (EDT)

Special?
Quick question, but why is Super Mario Bros. Special not considered part of the Super Mario series? --174.59.4.202 15:43, 7 July 2013 (EDT)

Super Mario Galaxy 2 Review Links
The Gamespot review link did not send me directly to the review.

The link in the page is: http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/supermariogalaxy2/index.html?tag=result;title;0.

The actual review link is http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/super-mario-galaxy-2-review/1900-6263170/.

For someone who is able to edit this article, please fix this link. --Marrow (talk) 12:11, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Upcoming Game?
On the page, it says that there is an upcoming Super Mario game. Don't we need a source for this? If there is, can someone send me a link to it?

The Super Mario Land games are confirmed canon by Nintendo
Nintendo on their Japanese 30th anniversary website has posted "the history of the super mario series." All the games considered canon are still on the list, however the Super Mario Land games (specifically the first mario land and six golden coins)are added. Since this is indeed an official source by Nintendo, we have no choice but to edit this and the "Super Mario Land series" article to fit this official picture by Nintendo. If there is any reason why we should deny this official source please speak up. Here is the official source.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/mario30th/index.html#/history/

Here's the US link, too:

http://supermario.nintendo.com/#/history/

It seems Nintendo changed their minds about the Super Mario Land games being canon. However, it only applies to Super Mario Land 1 and 2- not counting additional sequels or spin-offs. That makes Daisy, Tatanga and Wario confirmed canon characters, at least for the time being.

However, note that the US list omits Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels from the list- this suggests the canon is subjective even to Nintendo.

Agreed. I think we should say that the lost levels are canon even in the U.S despite the American version of the site. The Japanese is the source of Mario, so it might only be fair to call canon the original source material.


 * These things might change from time to time, but it's the company's current view that should be reflected on the article. Additional footnotes can be used for disambiguation of some entries' position or for noting changes in Nintendo's stance over time (something that should also be documented), or the different viewpoints of what consists a main entry (like how, for example, Yoshi's Island was developed for the purpose of expanding the Super Mario series, even though it ended up spinning-off its own series). --195.97.37.132 08:48, 29 May 2015 (EDT)

That makes sense. We should edit the article based on Nintendo's current standpoint rather than our assumptions. We will have to clarify that both the Japanese and NA/EU canon are both different. I do find it interesting how Super Mario bros U.S.A (as called in Japan), is considered canon in the main Mario series in Japan, but Super Mario bros 2 ( the lost levels as called in America) are not considered canon in America. Since I am new to this site, I do not really know how to edit the article. Do we need to request permission? To who?

I have attempted to edit the page. There is still much need for the article to be edited to add the land titles. I have attempted to change some of the basic text to tell the reader that the first two Mario land titles are apart of the main series. If you could edit the page to completely fill in these games that would be appreciated. I am inexperienced with editing source code. Thank you. 10:44, 29 May 2015 (EDT)


 * This is a major change as it has repercussions for organization across the wiki and should be decided via proposal, not via one brief conversation with only two people involved. The last time this was proposed, it failed. Granted, that was years ago and there's new information to consider, but the fact that the discussion got that contentious last time just proves that you need to do this via proper channels this time too. - 15:28, 29 May 2015 (EDT)

Proposals are only neccarey if there is question of if the material should be on the article. Size of change is not a reason as to why a proposal is needed. This is because size and importance of something is debatable and opinionated. A simple minor change could be small to one and huge to the other. Since Super Mario Wiki has nothing to say how big something has to be to be proposed, then according to the rules it is perfectly fine. Proposals so far should only be made if there is doubt or question about the material. Unless you doubt my source, then there is no one to question if it should or should not be there. If that is the case one has every right to post a fact when there is no opposition. Do you question my source? If my reasoning is not clear please explain. 4:58, 29 May 2015


 * Proposals are necessary for major changes that affect central pages or large numbers of pages, especially when there's a good possibility that some users may disagree. Including the SML games in the SM series is changing the definition of the central series of games, which is a big change under any reasonable measure, and it would potentially require the reorganization of hundreds of History sections across the wiki, which is unquestionably weighty as far as changes go. Furthermore, Nintendo has had conflicting stances on the matter over the years which should not be completely ignored in favour of this one new feature, and SML (and YI) games also have their own subseries apart from the SM series that spawned them, which adds to the awkwardness of how to approach dealing with them anywhere, so it's far from a cut and dry situation nomatter which way you slice it. Personally, I would say the SML games (and Yoshi's Island) should definitely be on this page, but still separated from the main games so that we can avoid reorganizing everything to be consistent, and to reflect the past ambivalence about their classification. - 17:46, 29 May 2015 (EDT)

Although Nintendo's canon stances have changed over the years, it is up to Super Mario wiki to keep updated on the current canon Nintendo says is canon to stay relevant to the current Mario lore and history. The situation may be different if Nintendo were to constantly switch up which games are and are not apart of the main series. However, since it has been officially added, there is no need to doubt whether or not they will keep the Land games as part of the main series. Furthermore, if you will still deny me then I will propose. Though if you want me to propose you will need to tell me how, so that this official information can be apart of the wiki for all to understand. 6:13, 29 May 2015 (EDT)


 * We also have to organize the information in the most effective way; I agree that the SML games should be on this page, but separated, like how the ports and remakes are separated, despite past Nintendo-produced rundowns of the series including some of them (and not mentioning others at all, while the new one mentions none), in order to keep things clear and manageable, both here and across the wiki. Proposals explains what to do, and you can also look at archived proposals to get a better idea of how proposals are written and run. This proposal would go in the "Changes" section. I also recommend making three option headers, rather than just "support" and "oppose" - i.e. one for full inclusion (here and in wiki organization standards), one for partial inclusion (i.e. what I'm suggesting, to include them here, but separate and not forcing reorganization across the wiki), and one for no inclusion (only because there has to be a "no change" option). - 19:58, 29 May 2015 (EDT)

Thanks for the help. But I disagree with putting the Land games in their own section like remakes. If Nintendo says they are main Mario titles then they should be categorized as such. Not based on our assumptions. 10:29, 29 May 2015

Lots of work to do
Knowing that the first two Super Mario Land games are now apart of the main series. There is a lot of editing to do. Such examples as turing "New Super Mario Bros. is the eighth installment in the Super Mario series." Into "New Super Mario Bros. is the tenth game in the Super Mario series. " We will also have to add the titles to the "Main" list. 01:28, 29 May 2015 (EDT)

Create a New Super Mario Bros. (series) page
I think, with 4 games and 1 extension game, we should create an article about New Super Mario Bros. sub-series. Why we can not talk about since Article about some sub-series, like the Donkey Kong Country (series) being sub-series of Donkey Kong (series), I read a Iwata Ask about New Super Mario Bros. Wii (I think or was it one of New Super Mario Bros.), is one reason why the team believes New Super Mario Bros. a new type of game to the Super Mario Bros. grind because of the 2.5D graphics and it was the reason they stuck the word "New" on the game's title. So, why not?

Proposer: Deadline: July 14, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) By looking at naming, design choices (including art and gameplay), and the developer interviews found at "Iwata Asks", I think that the Mario series of platformers is now split in three branches:
 * 3) *The New Super Mario series ("New" Mario games in http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/nsmbu/0/0) that are 2.5D platformers with gameplay and design decisions similar to the one used in the old Super Mario Bros. games (especially 3 and 4, known as World in the West), with goal posts to be reached or bosses to be beaten within a defined amount of time to complete the stage;
 * 4) *the main series (now known as "Super Mario Galaxy" series in http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/super-mario-3d-world/0/6), which is a series of fully 3D platformers with unrestrained movements of the main character started with Super Mario 64 and continued with Super Mario Sunshine and then Super Mario Galaxy, with a new gameplay based mainly around finding and collecting special items that, when collected within stages, mark a subpart of that stage as completed and make the player return to the main hub stage;
 * 5) *the "Super Mario 3D" series (distinguished from the Super Mario Galaxy series in http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wiiu/super-mario-3d-world/0/6), which is a a series of fully 3D platformers with unrestrained movements of the main character started with Super Mario 3D Land, and based on a more linear gameplay reminescent of the original Super Mario Bros. games, with a goal post to be reached within a defined time to complete the stage.
 * There are of course elements common to all three series (e.g. powerups that "transform" the main character giving new abilities, optional collectibles in each stage, recurring enemies), and the Super Mario 3D series might be seen as an evolution of super Mario Galaxy 2, still I think that we should really consider making this distinction in the Wiki as well, which also means creating a page about the "New Super Mario Bros." series.
 * 1) I do believe that games that have "New Super Mario Bros." in them follow the same coherent themes and gameplay, even more so than Super Mario Land series (which has a page, as I stated in the comments below). Additionally, games under the "New Super Mario Bros." tag have their own themes and art style, so they're more similar to each other than they are to the pre New Super Mario Bros. 2D platformers. To counter the slippery slope argument, the 64/Sunshine/Galaxy games are radically different from one another, and Galaxy 2 is not enough for a "Super Mario Galaxy" series. As for the the 2D-into-3D platformers, we don't have enough games to also consider it its own series. Invoking Super Mario 3D Galaxy is only hypothetical and does not solve organizational problems, nor does it have any bearing on this topic. Even if we did have Super Mario 3D Galaxy, it would most likely fall within "3D Land/World" style anyhow, and that would probably be the grounds to create articles on those games. Anyhow, stating that these pages will get redundant, but we'd have to consider the other subseries pages including Donkey Kong Country, Super Mario Land, and this page. So, it's still not a problem of this getting its own page, it would be the problem of all those subseries pages.
 * 2) As long as the games are still counted as Super Mario games, yes. I do believe these games are similar enough to warrant a subseries page.
 * 3) My opinion pretty much matches Magikrazy's. Keep the games on this page but also give them their own article.
 * 4) This thought has crossed my mind multiple times and honestly, I see fair reasons why this sub series should have an article. I mean these games share more similarities than most other games in the main series (and by similarities I mean I'm pretty much playing the same game five times).

Oppose

 * 1) I think we've had a proposal like this in the past, and I believe that the NSMB games aren't really different enough from the old 2D platformers (SMB3, World and the like) to merit them as a separate series. Donkey Kong Country has different mechanics from some other DK games, but NSMB is almost the same as old games but...with new levels and a few new items and enemies, and the graphics have been updated. But the core gameplay hasn't significantly changed. So I can't see how that justifies creating a separate page for NSMB.
 * 2) Per Chocolate Mario.
 * 3) Essentially, the only hint towards a new series is the word "New.", as the gameplay is still pretty much the same as always. It's like saying Super Mario Bros. 1-3 is a different series as Super Mario World because World lacks the number 4 in it's name.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
Shouldn't New Super Luigi U also be included in this new page, if it is to be created? 13:26, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Yes, since New Super Luigi U being a extension game of New Super Mario Bros. U.-- 13:30, 30 June 2015 (EDT)

So would you want the games separated in Histories and such, or would it be like how SMA has a series page, but all its entries are just part of the overall SM series (even when they're being listed separately from the originals because of new content situations), or how DKC and DKL both have series pages but get lumped together into one overall DKC/L series (while DK64 and the other games are separate)? Because I would be totally against splitting up the Histories, templates, categories and whatnot. And I'm still a bit wary even just on the series page front because then it could be argued we also need a SMB sub-series page, and one for 64/Sunshine/Galaxy - and potentially future ones for the "3D" series if World is followed up by something else (probably 3D Galaxy, as another crossover, and then that'd also make folks wonder if we should get a specific SMG sub-(sub-)series page... At some point, all the extra pages starts getting redundant, and just adds to the pile of stuff we need to maintain. - 14:37, 30 June 2015 (EDT)
 * No, i don't want like you say splitting the histories, templates, categories from the SM series. But, like you say, it would be like how DKC and DKL both have series pages from the DK series. I don't really think we need one for the 64/sunshine/galaxy or even 3D series, because they share mostly the same thing from being 3D and they are mostly for search a star-like item. The 3D series like Land and World is mostly look like a crossover from 2D games and 3D games.-- 15:18, 30 June 2015 (EDT)

I think it's better if we leave it as it is. I'm not too fond of invoking hypothetical slippery slopes. But it's already confusing where 64/Sunshine/Galaxy should be categorized (along with the 3D Terraqueous Macrocosm games). New Super Mario Bros. as its own sub-subseries might work since they all fall within a particular style and naming convention, but it does leave questions about Super Mario Bros. 1-3 and stuff like Super Mario Land 3 and Super Mario World 2. As for Galaxies and 3D Terraqueous Macrocosm, well, there aren't enough games yet since it's a game and its sequel. I'd be concerned if we ever get a third game including 3D Terraqueous Galaxy. 16:00, 30 June 2015 (EDT)

New Super Mario Bros. is no more deserving of its own series page than the rebooted Retro Studios Donkey Kong Country, or if Nintendo decided to make sequels (not sequel) for Yoshi's New Island. -- 10:18, 1 July 2015 (EDT)
 * And what about Super Mario Land? It has three games and a discontinued Virtual Boy game, yet it has its own page. It's much more loosely tied than New Super Mario Bros., which, without a doubt, has a coherent naming convention and similar artstyles to each other. 14:51, 1 July 2015 (EDT)
 * To me, Super Mario Land is more obviously a spinoff (everything in the games are so different, and it doesn't follow the "Super Mario Bros." naming) while New Super Mario Bros. is a continuation of the original series, like Donkey Kong Country Returns. -- 19:43, 1 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Super Mario Land has little influence in the Mario series as a whole, but it's still coherent enough (its storyline, for instance) to have its own sub series article. Donkey Kong Country Returns and Tropical Freeze are a different case, and they're much more drastic than New Super Mario Bros. revival (Kremlings?). New Super Mario Bros. are treated as their own set of games now, as "New" used to imply and pander to nostalgia, but that it has been used for 4 subsequent games/extensions feels significant for me. You don't see "Donkey Kong Country Returns: Tropical Freeze", do you? 02:41, 3 July 2015 (EDT)
 * "Super Mario Land has little influence in the Mario series as a whole, but it's still coherent enough (its storyline, for instance) to have its own sub series article." Exactly. That's why, to me, Super Mario Land is obviously a sub-series, while I feel NSMB is just a continuation of the original games. -- 10:55, 3 July 2015 (EDT)

@Mister Wu: Three branches? Where would pre New Super Mario Bros. 2D platformers go? The Super Mario Wiki equivalent of a taxonomical dumping ground? And are we really going to name the cluster of 3D Mario platformers that isn't 3D Terraqueous Macrocosm the "Super Mario Galaxy series"? As for the significance of New Super Mario Bros., we do, however, have a page on Super Mario Land (series)... 14:48, 1 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Well, to be honest, I already implicitly classified them as the old "Super Mario Bros. series" ;-). Anyway, since as you pointed out the Super Mario 3D series only has 2 games and the main series started with Super Mario 64 in itself had quite a few changes before becoming what is described by the developers as the series of "Super Mario Galaxy" games, I think in those cases just a reorganization of the page and the template in these 3+1 (or just 3, if we consider Super Mario 64 as the continuation of the Super Mario Bros. series) branches would be nice, although not really mandatory, in order to point out the similarities between games and clarify which should be the proper sequel of which.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:12, 1 July 2015 (EDT)
 * I suppose so, but I wouldn't be all-out supporting marrying 64/Sunshine/Galaxy even though they're 3D platformers that share a similar logo style, which suggests that they're similar in a way... 02:41, 3 July 2015 (EDT)

@Andymii:in my opinion the argument is quite flawed because Super Mario World is Super Mario Bros. 4. The name was dropped in the West but in Japan there never was this distinction between Super Mario Bros. 1-3 and Super Mario World, even in the name. In the case of the New Super Mario Bros. series, it is the developer themselves who are making this distinction, even though the gameplay is so similar that New Super Mario Bros. U is in Super Mario Maker along with the Super Mario Bros. games. After all, it is difficult to ignore that, before New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine were released, and if I'm not mistaken those were considered the proper continuation of the Super Mario Bros. series, with New Super Mario Bros. coming later to offer again the gameplay of the old 2D games without being just a port or an improved version.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2015 (EDT)

Andymii: It's a combination of factors, not just naming convention. Naming just reinforces the games' grouping. All New Super Mario Bros. games have the same art style, music style (bahs), gameplay (controller schemes have remained consistent; same items including Red Coin Rings, Blue P-Switches; physics), and a few other things. The New Super Mario Bros. games, as I've pointed out, have more in common with each other than Super Mario Bros. 1-3 have with themselves. 00:13, 3 July 2015 (EDT)

Just a question: what makes the NSMB series distinct enough from the classic SMB series (barring 2 and including TLL, I suppose)?