Talk:Bubble Dayzee

Is the name...
Is the name Bubble Dayzee official or conjectural? If official, what is the source? -- Son of Suns

TMK, I couldn't find any other sources. - Yoshi Master

I'm sure they were called Bubble Dayzees (they might have spelled it "Daisy," but I don't remember) in the Yoshi's Island player's guide. - Batsy
 * Not sure about the English guide, but the German strategy guide doesn't list them as seperate enemies at all. Then again, it also doesn't list the Gargantua Blargg (it only lists the small variation & Nep-Enut), so they may just have forgotten about them.--vellidragon 10:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Reconsider?
As a discussion about the Red Coin variant of the Bandit is running, i'd like to open this as well. Shall we reconsider it, and merge to the actual page? -- 12:40, January 28, 2020 (EST)
 * I'd support that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:23, January 28, 2020 (EST)
 * I also do, hence why i opened this discussion. -- 13:00, January 30, 2020 (EST)

Merge to Crazy Daisy
I'm pretty much aware that this page has been split for quite a lot longer than i thought, and is only split because of the separate entry it was given on the English guide. The Japanese version doesn't even difference them. ALthough, unlike the two other colors, this one behaves differently instead of being an aesthetic change, it's like the Koopas, but only one has a behavioral difference. The only reason it was kept split as well is because of a separate filename, so did the Red Coin variant of the Bandit. Now that it's merged, let's get to this.

Proposer: Deadline: March, 16, 2020 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Another important detail is that in SPM, the Dayzee "song" is redesigned to look like a bubble iirc, which along with the color ties them together further. Them appearing in YNI with no official guide differentiating them (despite certain Boo Guys getting official differentiation at that point) is further notable. The only differentiation they get here is in filenames, which as with the case of the Bandits, is dimply a way to avoid getting metaphorical wires crossed in coding. EDIT: OK, not as much as I thought on the SPM thing, probably confused it with Cherbil, though my belief on this still stands. Note that I withheld from making it as I consider it able to go both ways, but I'll agree regardless.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per myself and Doc in the comments, which I will summarize here: Bubble Dayzee is officially and currently considered a color variant, and the Nintendo Power source with a unique profile also has many unnecessary names altogether (e.g. Submarine Nep-Enut), some of which are erroneous (e.g. Blue Boo). Additionally, like Bandit having Coin Bandit's palette and trait in the Paper Mario series, it seems very deliberate that Crazee Dayzee is modeled after Bubble Dayzee's palette.

Oppose

 * 1) - They have a different English name, a different appearance, and behave differently, so this should stay split.
 * 2) - Per TheDarkStar.
 * 3) - What... This is like merging Bullet Bill and Bouncing Bullet Bill, just because "they're like Koopas". Per both.
 * 4) - Per TheDarkStar.
 * 5) Per all. I have to say the extent that variant mergers are starting to go to is getting concerning.
 * 6) - Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - This is an english focused wiki and if the english names are different on top of being entirely different things then it's safe to keep them split. Per Waluigi Time, I think the merges are becoming excessive.

Comments

 * Decided to rescind my vote - there's apparently a lot to be chewed on with regards to this matter. -- 00:01, March 6, 2020 (EST)

@DarkStar No, they don't have a "different appearance," the PM Crazee Dayzees use their appearance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:35, March 2, 2020 (EST)
 * They still behave differently and have a different name. MikhailMCraft (talk • contribs) 11:37, March 2, 2020 (EST)
 * "Behave differently", that's like Koopas. And different name, in English only. -- 13:04, March 2, 2020 (EST)
 * Also, TheDarkStar, look different, so did both Koopa variants. -- 13:05, March 2, 2020 (EST)
 * "They behave differently" is not valid. Crazee Dayzees in SMW2 and PM also behave differently from each other. In no non-PM game can Dayzees put you to sleep. Now, be that as it may, this is far less sturdy than the things I try to merge, which is partially why I didn't propose it. However, it is very much worth saying that the YNI guidebook didn't split this but did split Bouncing Bullet Bill. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:48, March 2, 2020 (EST)
 * I don't know why you're using behavioral differences between games in completely different genres as an argument. PM has other stuff like headbonking Goombas, Pokeys that fling their body parts to attack, and Dry Bones that are weak to fire that you generally don't see in the platformers. The fact that Crazee Dayzees can induce sleep in that series is irrelevant. 03:41, March 3, 2020 (EST)

@Obsessive Mario Fan, "It's like merging the bouncy variant of Bullet Bill to the original page" is not a valid argument, as unlike that, the Panji-san (Panzy-san) did not receive a separate Japanese name in Yoshi's New Island. -- 02:06, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Waluigi Time, you mean like splitting variants of Koopas, which aren't much separate, right? -- 02:19, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Don't put words in my mouth. This situation in my opinion is starting to get out of hand. Merging color variants, fine. Merging behavioral differences that appear identical to their base form (i.e. Chargin' Chuck variants), sure. In this case, this is an enemy with a different appearance, behavior, and name - and I don't want to hear anything about "but they have the same Japanese name", I've said time and time again for years in proposals like this that perfectly valid English info should not be thrown out and treated as less important when this is, after all, an English wiki. If all three of those factors aren't enough to warrant a split, how does an enemy variant even get its own article at that point? And sure, Bubble Dayzees have almost the same coloration as ordinary TTYD and SPM's Crazee Dayzees, but to quote the frequently used argument, "those are different series made by different developers". -- 11:21, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Different developers who apparently considered them to be the same thing. The devs of SMW2 considered them the same. The translator considered them different, but again, my Short Fuse/Seedy Sally/Hopping Tap-Tap/Submarine Nep-Enut/Blue Boo argument. The only guide to split Bubble Dayzee split those as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:16, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Not really sure what which guide it comes from has to do with it. It would be silly to treat any guide as an "all or nothing" deal (Encyclopedia excluded for obvious reasons). In this case though, the last two obviously shouldn't be split since they don't even really exist. Seedy Sally and Short Fuse are visually identical to Ukiki. Hopping Tap-Tap, as far as I'm aware, is a behavioral variant only, and is comparable to SMB2 Ninjis in that aspect. None of those examples have all the differences that I believe warrants keeping Bubble Dayzee split. -- 12:32, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * The only "visual difference" here is a palette swap, no new graphics for the plant itself are unique to it. But all right then. I just don't think there's enough differences to warrant concern over some wanting it merged, at any rate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Palette swap or not, it's still a visual difference, and although that's normally not enough for a split by itself, it's all those characteristics together that makes me feel these should stay split. -- 12:42, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Additional note that should have been in the header: the only source to split these is also the source that split "Short Fuse" and "Seedy Sally" from "Grinder" (or Ukiki), something we additionally no longer recognize. It also split "Hopping Tap-Tap" (which we never recognized), "Submarine Nep-Enut" (which isn't different from Nep at all), "Blue Boo" (which is no different from Boo Balloon at all either), and other such things. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:51, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * It also splits the Red Coin Bandit as well, which we had split until now. -- 06:51, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * I'd actually be for re-splitting the coin bandit, because it A. behaves differently, B. looks different from its parent species, and C. has a different English name. 11:38, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * It only "looks different" because of its palette, and the different behavior is a part of that. Either way, the PM Bandit enemies were clearly intended to be the same as Coin Bandits, and while those were both made by different companies, both companies that developed the respective games clearly considered them the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:16, March 3, 2020 (EST)
 * The bubble-spitting Crazies also "only look different" because of their palette. Anyways, since Yoshi's New Island excluded the yellow (the textures are still in the codes, but could be unintentional, since Relay Heyhos also have the "Oh, no, no, no, no", and sad textures, but aren't used in game anyways) ones, wether it was intentional or not, there are now 2, who both behave differently. -- 11:13, March 4, 2020 (EST)
 * 11:22, March 4, 2020 (EST)
 * So? Different color does not mean a split? -- 11:24, March 4, 2020 (EST)
 * Different color doesn't mean a split by itself, but that's not the only unique trait displayed by Bubble Dayzees. You can't view stuff like this in a vacuum. -- 11:43, March 4, 2020 (EST)
 * No more different than the unique blue Beach Koopas in SMW. While these have a different name in exactly one source, those actually have a different sprite. There's also the case of Solo Toady and Green Toady, which you yourself voted to keep merged. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:51, March 4, 2020 (EST)
 * To be completely honest I still say those Toadies should be merged. Maybe this is flimsy logic, but name is kind of where I draw the line on color variants. The only distinguishing identifier from Solo Toady is "Green", which... yeah, I think you get the idea. Same applies to the Beach Koopas, if "Blue Beach Koopa/Koopa without a Shell" is even used as an official name anywhere. If Bubble Dayzee was called "Purple Dayzee" or something, I'd be more likely to support a merge. -- 11:19, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * To be completely honest I still say those Toadies should be merged. Maybe this is flimsy logic, but name is kind of where I draw the line on color variants. The only distinguishing identifier from Solo Toady is "Green", which... yeah, I think you get the idea. Same applies to the Beach Koopas, if "Blue Beach Koopa/Koopa without a Shell" is even used as an official name anywhere. If Bubble Dayzee was called "Purple Dayzee" or something, I'd be more likely to support a merge. -- 11:19, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Admittedly, some support has pointed out that this case is not as strong as Coin Bandit, as it turns out that the bubble features are not included in the Paper Mario series (although a similar color palette is still given to the normal Crazee Dayzee). However, I want to make something perfectly understood to the opposition: regardless of how you feel about merging, Bubble Dayzee is also technically a color variant of Crazee Dayzee. This isn't an isolated incident either, but something that is constantly true of the official Shogakukan guidebooks for all three appearances. One translation is presented within the article, but for context, these are the full quotes."「白と黄色のパソジーさんは、口笛を吹きながらスキップをしているだけ. 紫のパソジーさんは、シャボン玉を吹いている. これに当たるとはじかれるが、食べればシャボン玉を吹けるようになる. 」 (The white- and yellow-colored Pansy Sans whistle as they merely skip along. The purple Pansy Sans blow soap bubbles. These cause bouncing when hit, but eating them will allow soap bubbles to be blown.) - [[media:Super Mario Yossy Island Shogakukan P4 P5.jpg|「スーパーマリオヨッシーアイランド任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Super Mario: Yossy Island Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 5.]]""「白 と黄色 のものは、口笛 をふきながらスキップしているだけ. 紫 のパンジーさんがふくシャボン玉 を食 べると、ジャボン玉 がふける. 」 (The white- and yellow-colored ones whistle and merely skip along. The purple Pansy Sans blow soap bubbles which if eaten, allow soap bubbles to be blown.) - [[media:Advance 3 Shogakukan P19.png|「スーパーマリオアドバンス3任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Super Mario Advance 3 Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 19.]]""「花 のような敵 で、ゆっくりと地 上 を歩 く. 中 には、泡 を吐 き出 してくるものもいる. <span class='explain' title='しょうめん'>正面 から<span class='explain' title='あわ'>泡 に<span class='explain' title='ふ'>触 れると<span class='explain' title='こうほう'>後方 に<span class='explain' title='お'>押 し<span class='explain' title='もど'>戻 されるが、ダメージは<span class='explain' title='う'>受 けない. 」 (Flower-like enemies that slowly walk on the ground. Some of them spit bubbles. Touching a bubble head-on pushes back but does not inflict damage.) - [[media:Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P23.jpg|「ヨッシー New アイランド 任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Yoshi's New Island Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 23.]]"Notably, the GBA description was rewritten from the SFC description, and the 3DS description again refers to it as basically one and the same within the same guide that gave a separate identity to Bouncing Bullet Bill. This is more than a Japanese name being the same: these are sources directly telling us, in no uncertain terms, that it is a color variant. At this point, this is really asking for a continued exception to our general treatment of color variants. As such, I urge all opposers to please engage in a simple exercise: imagine that you are arguing against the developers, not the proposal's support. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:29, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * I'd rather not toss away the English name just because Japanese media refers to them with only a color identifier. Bull's-Eye Bill used to be the same way, and we agreed not to merge the earlier iterations with Bullet Bill. -- 11:19, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * You've mentioned that before, but realistically, that won't happen in a merge. Bubble Dayzee's name would be only be "thrown out" as its own article title; it will still be treated as "perfectly valid English info" where applicable. Think here where Coin Bandit, Seedy Sally and Short Fuse are listed, or here where both Big Bertha and Boss Bass are listed. This isn't just some "Japanese media," but also constant and importantly current information, and segregating details like that (e.g. "it's a color variant in that region, but not this region") comes across as lazy. You said it yourself, "Merging color variants, fine." LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:44, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Search Killer is not comparable, as this one has an incarnation, that is possibly based on previous ones where it was the same as Bullet Bill, and Bubble Crazies have never gotten that distinction. -- 12:56, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * To clarify, when I say "toss away" I don't mean not acknowledging the information at all, I just mean passing over perfectly valid English info in favor of Japanese info to justify splits/merges like this. As for that quote, that doesn't apply here because I personally don't consider Bubble Dayzee a color variant - I was clearly saying that in defense of keeping Bubble Dayzee and other comparable entities split anyway. My definition of color variant is a palette swap of an enemy, potentially with behavioral differences i.e. Koopa Troopas, that either does not have a unique name from the original enemy (if Bubble Dayzee's official name was Crazee Dayzee with no distinction) or the only name distinction is the color itself (if Bubble Dayzee was just named Purple Crazee Dayzee or something). Bubble Dayzee does not fit either of these definitions and as a result I think it would be better split. The distinction wasn't made in Japan, but it was made for the English localization and that's what matters to me. -- 13:53, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Thing is though, none of the other "palette/behavioral swap that was separated only in English by that guide and appeared again in a later game" enemies have kept their "split in English" status other than Bouncing Bullet Bill, which became split in Japanese, and Bowling Goonie, which due to the flightless normal and skeletal versions being split is a bit more complicated. If anything, merging these would be the most consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:17, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * With all due respect, it doesn't matter how you or I "personally" rationalize it: no one gets to redefine a color variant from multiple/current official sources. I also highly doubt Bubble Dayzee would've even been kept separately if Yoshi's New Island received a modern English guide given how older localizations like Flopsy Fish, Boo Man Bluff, Dizzy Dandy, etc. get discarded over time. Dated guides are not infallible. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:09, March 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Yeah, they have probably been forgotten, over the time (the names). -- 05:14, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * First of all, not sure whether I was in mind when you wrote your edit summary or not but I'm not a fan of you assuming bad faith here. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not opposing just because I feel like it, I genuinely think these should stay split. I don't consider opinions changing as new information is presented as "goalpost-moving", and after all, your original comment was intended to change the opinions of voters anyway, was it not? Anyway, back to the situation at hand - I see nothing wrong with having a personal definition of what being a color variant means. I don't consider Bubble Dayzee a color variant, but admittedly it walks a very thin line, and as a result it falls to us as users to decide what is notable enough to warrant its own article. As merge proposals sets their sights on increasingly distinct "color variants", we either need to draw the line and take it down a notch or just let it continue. My main issue with this proposal (and to acknowledge your comments here) is that it hinges entirely on "in Japan". I have opposed proposals like this time and time again and will continue to do so. I know you think it's just a "nonargument", but this is an English wiki. Japanese info should only be used to supplement English info, not replace it. Yes, there's been cases of bizarre and inconsistent localization over the years, but that's where the Japanese info can and should be used to supplement the English info by helping us to connect entities that are obviously the same, or separate entities that are clearly supposed to be different. Opinions obviously vary widely on this, but that's mine and what I plan to stick with. In the case of Bubble Dayzee, it has a unique English name, behavior, and appearance. If it had been given a unique name in Japan aside from internal data, I guarantee this merge wouldn't even be considered right now. Maybe an English Yoshi's New Island guide would've merged it with Crazee Dayzee, but we didn't get one, so we'll never know and speculating on whether or not Bubble Dayzees would've been retained as unique enemies or reduced to a mere color variant is pointless. The original guide, filled with oddities and goofs as it may be (and really, what guide isn't), is all we have to go off of as far as English information goes, but there's really no need to take "all-or-nothing" stances on entire guides just because they said a few weird things. -- 11:04, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * So what about the consistency issue then I mentioned? Anyways, thank you for going into detail on this. I don't want things to get heated on this. Bear in mind, though, the people who actually designed and developed these games seemed to consider them as the same, so that's the "first-party" interpretation, if you will. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:37, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm assuming by "consistency issue" you mean where most other variants split in that guide ended up being merged later. I don't consider that an issue here since Bubble Dayzee was never mentioned again, so we have no way of knowing whether it would've remained split like Bouncing Bullet Bill and Bowling Goonie or merged like the others. Given that both happened, I'd say it's equally likely it could've gone either way. Plus, it's kind of hard to be "consistent" with something that (as far as I'm aware anyway) doesn't have anything exactly comparable to it. -- 12:05, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * Only reason BBB stayed split is because it retroactively became split in JP like Bull's-Eye Bill. The same can't be said of Bubble Dayzee. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:43, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * First, I don't believe I'm assuming anything when I see votes that add nothing else but platitudes like "the merges are becoming excessive" - having an opinion like that is fine and dandy, but it fails utterly to address anything of substance to the current topic. Second, when I mention "goalpost-moving", that is how the reframing of your argument to mean a "personal opinion" comes across to me, and if I somehow misunderstood that, then forgive me; my opinion was that Bubble Dayzee was not a color variant until a short while ago, but when I learned certain details in this proposal and the Coin Bandit one (namely that internal coding is not always a solid delineator of this sort of status and the Paper Mario series borrows the color palette of the alternate variety specifically), I of course did further digging and arrived at what I believe to be as close to an objective truth on the matter as possible. My current opinion is that it would be nearly pointless to give Coin Bandit and Bubble Dayzee differential treatment, and when you dismiss official quotes I went out of my way to meticulously highlight for "personal" reasons, you fail to convince me. Third, let me make hopefully something clear to you: when I see this wiki, I don't see just any "English wiki" - I see the biggest resource on the one of the biggest gaming franchises on the face of the Internet, and as such, a collective duty falls to regular contributors to make this resource the closest it can be to Nintendo. A reader from America, or Italy, or Japan, or Brazil, or wherever they happen to be in the world should be able to enter this wiki and leave thinking that we have all done a good job to represent that vision of quality; as the hands and minds of localizers routinely change on a whim at a far greater rate than actual creators ever will, it should strictly not segregate content based on regional translations, which is an alienating trap I've seen occur to other wikis time and time again. It is a sentiment I firmly view as potentially counterproductive if allowed to fester, and frankly, it seems to take for granted many organizational strides in this wiki that might seem like common sense now but were standards that contributors before you had to strive for. As I've already tried to explain, apparent concerns that Japanese information will outright "replace" English information are unfounded; regardless, both would be represented to "supplement" the other, but for main article purposes, deference would be given to the language of origin. To say that all these arguments merely boil down to "in Japan" is a glimp oversimplication because unfortunately for you, the franchise is mostly a Japanese creation. Lastly, it's not like alternate colors from the era are incapable of having unique names. I hope we have a better understanding now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:35, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * Just so you understand my line of thinking a little more, I prefer the "this is an English wiki so we should use English information" style of organization, not necessarily because of language alone, but because I think it is more beneficial to have the content be organized as it is represented in that region, if that makes sense. Whether that's better or worse than trying to stick as close to creator's intent as possible, well, that's more a matter of personal preference and not so objective. I doubt either of us will change our thoughts on how the wiki's content should be organized, but I can respect why you think that way. That being said, I do think it would be a good idea to try to document creator's intent a bit more, even if splits and merges aren't happening because of it. -- 15:05, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * The problem I have with the "group by English name" thing is that if it weren't for a tip in SSBfWU, the conclusion to that line of thinking would put the Super Mario World "Goomba" in with normal Goomba instead of Galoomba, with a simple notice that amounts to "these aren't really Goombas in JP" in the SMW section. Ultimately, it's not convenient at all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:02, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * That would be one of those cases where using Japanese info to supplement comes in. Even when they shared a name with Goombas, anyone familiar with the series can tell they're a bit odd. The Japanese name would confirm this and we'd proceed with attempting a split. -- 19:55, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * And see, if we did this by creator-language name over English name by default it'd be a non-issue from the start. This is a lot of extra work for less benefit than this provides. Either way, the Dayzees shared a origin-language name within the same game that introduced "both" of them, so that shakens what you've been saying up further. And the "a bit odd" thing doesn't really work either, since that game introduced normal Troopas that are shoe-wearing bipeds and come out of their shells when attacked. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:47, March 6, 2020 (EST)
 * It's fine to agree to disagree, but yes, there's a reason why the is a tried and true adage; simply put, less moving parts means less room for error. Those on the outside looking in will wonder why our methodology became inefficient when we've known better. As for other examples, there are so many since the wiki's inception that I honestly don't know where to start. I suppose to use one off the top of my head, if we're now having trouble deciding if a beverage is a beverage, how on earth did we manage to conclude that a "penguin" is a turtle (note that the sprite appears to have more flipper-like arms so the same "renamed after redesign" approach applies)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:22, March 7, 2020 (EST)
 * To be fair, in the case of the Troopas there was nothing suggesting they were different in any region, and the bipedalism was weird at the time, but they had more than enough time to adopt that in almost all of their appearances afterward by the time this wiki was started, so I don't think anyone here would be arguing for a split based on that. Anyway, this is a lot to think about, I might have to start reconsidering my approach to wiki organization in all honesty. Better to lean more one way than the other than to have some sort of Frankenstein mess of a wiki, I suppose. -- 12:28, March 7, 2020 (EST)

Additionally, if this proposal fails, the only logical thing to do is to reorganize variants on a more case-by-case basis. -- 07:00, March 7, 2020 (EST)
 * We'd also have to revisit the Red Coin Bandit. -- 09:34, March 8, 2020 (EDT)

I'm not currently going to vote here, rather I want to talk about the "this is an English wiki" argument in the context of splitting and merging. Simply put, if we change how we split or merge based off the laguage of our unofficial wiki, then we're changing the info we give because of something in our unofficial wiki. Because what happens with splitting or merging is different then what happens with names. Splitting something gives the info that they're different, merging them gives the info that they're the same. Names, on the other hand, usually only change the appearance of the page and rarely does changing names give a large amount of different info. So, this argument implies that we're fine with allowing an unofficial thing (the language of our unofficial wiki) to change the actual info we give our readers. Merging and splitting things isn't merely an orginizational thing. Whever or not our wiki is in Japanese, English, French, German, etc should not have an effect on the actual, official, info we give. Thus, the argument shouldn't be used to change how we split or merge. So, to everyone who uses the "this is an English wiki" argument I ask: would you change how we splitted or merged certain pages if we were a Japanese wiki? Would you use an "this is a Japanese wiki" argument against splitting or merging pages based off English names in this hypothetical wiki? 10:05, March 8, 2020 (EDT)