Talk:Big Wiggler

They originated in Mario Kart Wii!
Hello? They originated in Mario Kart Wii. What I don't get is this: "They make their first Mario Kart appearance in Mario Kart 7. They replace the already-giant Wigglers in Maple Treeway, because the normal Wiggler is a playable character." That doesn't even make any sense! The Wigglers in Mario Kart 7 are the exact same size as those in Mario Kart Wii! The Wigglers in Mario Kart Wii weren't normal ones! WHAT? --Schmerpin 17:12, 22 May 2012 (EDT)

Yes I agree. MarioKart7player (talk) 15:58, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Mega Wiggler
Big Wiggler shoud be called Mega Wiggler. It sounds a lot better. Who changed it? MarioKart7player (talk) 15:58, 12 February 2015 (EST)
 * The wiki always prefers using official names over non-official names. Currently, "Big Wiggler" had an official source, while "Mega Wiggler" did not, so that's why it was moved. Regardless of what "sounds" better, the official name trumps anything else.

Ok, well I think Mega Wiggler sounds better. MarioKart7player (talk) 17:28, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Super Mario 64
I think the Wiggler boss from Super Mario 64 should get a mention in some capacity on here, as unlike other large Wiggler bosses/characters (like the ones from several later RPGs), it is treated as larger-than-normal in-game; not only is it on the giant part of the island, but it outright shrinks down to normal size after being defeated, eventually falling through the floor. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:47, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * Hmmm... I wonder what does the Japanese encyclopedia calls it... I'd assume that it is called "Hanachan". -- 13:03, 3 March 2019 (EST)
 * It's "Hanachan" like in the game, but we do see an obvious size difference when the Power Star is relinquished. But on the other hand, both the Player's Guide and official website claim that Mario is the resized one (despite inconsistencies between the islands), even though the enemies are considered to be different. Also, maybe it's just me, but the size that Wiggler shrinks to seems to be different between versions, with Super Mario 64 becoming tinier than it should and Super Mario 64 DS becoming a more normal size. I lean to the idea that Wiggler was intended to be its own character in the game, akin to Koopa the Quick being plain "Nokonoko" in Japanese. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:30, 4 March 2019 (EST)
 * It seemed about right to me in both versions. It's just skinnier in general in SM64. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:08, 4 March 2019 (EST)
 * Here's a possible example of what you're looking for: Big Magikoopa. It's unnamed in Yoshi's Safari, but given the big name is self-explanatory, it's mentioned anyway. Something like that? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:11, 8 March 2019 (EST)

In Super Mario 64 you are tiny, therefore the wiggler is normal size. PROPLAYEN (talk) 19:44, August 7, 2020 (EDT)
 * While this is technically true, the enemies from Mario's perspective are still considered appearances of giant Piranha Plants, Grand Goombas, Micro Goombas, Small Piranhas (which appear elsewhere), etc. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:59, August 7, 2020 (EDT)

(Continuing from an idea mentioned here) What do we think about potentially splitting the Super Mario 64 appearance into its own article? It'd sidestep the issue as to if it should be counted as a Big Wiggler, and as mentioned, Koopa the Quick has its own article despite the generic Japanese name. The way to look at it is not that having its own article automatically makes it a separate subject, but rather, another article is due to the subject in a specific instance being noteworthy. However, is there too much overlap with the "Make Wiggler Squirm" article, and is "noteworthiness" too subjective? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:37, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't think redundancy is much of an issue since we already split bosses from their levels/missions anyway. Also of note, looking at the bosses list on the Super Mario 64 page, I'm pretty sure that Wiggler is the only one that has dialogue and has the boss theme play while fighting it to not be given its own article. -- 11:55, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I think that things should only get a separate article if they are a separate subject, and I will not be moved on that. Regarding its dialog, it has what, four text boxes? Also, it's behaviorally one of the simplest bosses in the game. I don't think it's even remotely close to as noteworthy as, say, the PMSS one, which also doesn't have its own article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:49, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I think it's clear by now that you don't really care about character individuality in cases like this, so that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. Anyway, I think the Sticker Star Wiggler deserves its own page too (there's actually a decent amount of Wigglers that could probably get their own pages). -- 13:59, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * Splitting doesn't really help anyone, though. There's not really any more to be said that what's in each respective section now, and looking for separate pages for allegedly separate entities with identical names and in many cases roles is tedious, unnecessary, and far from preferable. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:08, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I disagree, there's definitely potential to expand on the information we have on these characters by giving them their own articles rather than relegating them to a single history section. For example, Sticker Star Wiggler could probably benefit from a personality section, but there's no way of doing that with the current setup. Besides, it's not like it would be difficult to find, since we would still have sections saying "a member of this species appears in this game" on the main species pages with a link to the proper page. -- 14:47, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * Thing is, ones like SM64, MLBiS, MLDT, and MLPJ all have the same basic role of "nice dude who due to misunderstanding/corruption gets in a spat with the player characters." Compounding this is that the MLPJ one is practically made of callbacks to the PMSS one, so they could be considered the same character following how our coverage of the paper entities works....but it also might not be. I feel there's so much vague connections and similarities that splitting will only complicate things further. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:57, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I notice that these arguments are stemming from the wiki's character/species dichotomy, so I'm going to offer this hypothetical: what if we broke it down even further and made a template for general boss enemies? It would basically be an alternative to the character infobox and somewhat reduce the load on species pages. They would also be dedicated boss articles, serving a slightly different purpose from the existing pages. Could an arrangement like that work out? LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:15, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding what that would actually be. Would you mind making a brief sandbox example? -- 20:34, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

Thing is, it's not actually the Wiggler that is big, it's Mario that is small. The trait of Tiny-Huge Island is that it's Mario that changes size, not the world itself. So it's just a regular Wiggler. 15:07, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * But it shrinks to a "normal" size when Mario defeats it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:16, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * Even further than that, even. But that's, like, the one difference. It doesn't turn red when angry in the N64 original, because sprite swapping was hard I guess, but does in the DS remake. Wigglers have been known to vary in size anyway, like in Mario Kart DS or Super Mario Party, both of which we have listed on the standard Wiggler page. As far as the game is concerned, it's a regular Wiggler. 15:25, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I know. That's why I said merely "a mention" rather than a full section merge. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:11, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * And as mentioned, Mario's size (supposedly) still affects the enemy's size, which is why things like the Grand Goomba and Micro Goomba are in relation to Mario, not considered the regular enemies. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:15, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'm for a mention. 20:20, October 27, 2020 (EDT)

Split the NSMB information from this article?
Should we split the New Super Mario Bros. information from this article? It is much bigger than later appearances, and serves as a platform. -- 12:25, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * Being larger by itself isn't a reason to split; for example, Big Goombas are sometimes just the size of Hefty Goombas, and the big enemies in the Super Mario Galaxy games absolutely eclipse their appearances in other games. As long as the enemy is depicted as bigger than usual, the actual size can be imprecise. It is, however, longer than usual, having many more segments instead of simply being scaled up, which makes it fairly unique compared to most of the big enemies. The fact that it's used as a platform isn't necessarily a distinguishing factor because Big Wigglers have different interactions depending on the game (even in within only the New Super Mario Bros. line of games, things can still manage to change such as Mini Goombas or Spinners). This can honestly go either way, but I'm leaning towards keeping the big species articles unified. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:33, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * TCRF showed a video of unused behaviors for objects, and there was what appeared to be a "Deka Hanachan", though, if this gets split, it would go under the name "Kyodai Hanachan" per source priority. -- 13:32, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * That's a valid point. The video indicates that more standard Big Wigglers were considered for New Super Mario Bros. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:22, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * It's also worth mentioning that Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. lists it among the game's characters rather than enemies, although it should be noted that New Super Mario Bros. was kind of an interim from the Super Mario Bros. 3 "Kyodai" (Giant) to standard adoption of the Super Mario 64 "Deka" (Big) for large subjects. The only other case where "Kyodai" / "Deka" refers to different enemies is Boss Bass / Big Cheep Cheep, which has a convoluted history with Bubba / Cheep Chomp. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:30, 4 March 2019 (EST)
 * That's true. Doc von Schmeltwick said that he'd rather be "yes" on splitting the Wiggler in this discussion. Let's get some consensus first. -- 06:38, 4 March 2019 (EST)
 * I'm however still convinced they're different things. -- 14:01, 4 March 2019 (EST)
 * Anyways, like i said, let's get some consensus. -- 06:46, 5 March 2019 (EST)
 * Why don't you make a proposal? LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:48, 5 March 2019 (EST)
 * I'd prefer have a consensus first before making a proposal. -- 06:53, 5 March 2019 (EST)
 * And... If there is a disagreement, i could make the proposal. -- 03:59, 6 March 2019 (EST)

Split Kyodai Hanachan from this article
Ok, so the two are likely different things. The NSMB one is actually an ally as opposed to an enemy, is much bigger than the future appearances, has more segment than Big Wiggler, and both have different Japanese names. "Kyodai Hanachan" for the NSMB one, and "Deka Hanachan" for the rest.

Proposer: Deadline: March 22, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) As mentioned above, the Japanese names are not to be taken at face value, as Kyodai/Deka distinction is moot. The deciding factor for me is that ordinary Big Wigglers are unused in the game, and if they were used, there wouldn't be a question on what to do here. It's likely the unused variant's name was given to the used version.
 * 3) Well, it DOES act drastically different from its counterparts that eventually appear in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, so yeah, go ahead.
 * 4) Normally I don't like the idea of splitting big enemies based on size, as they're inconsistent between games (SMG2, anyone?) and that's an extremely slippery slope, but given the other distinctions, particularly smaller Big Wigglers being unused, I'm okay with this.
 * 5) Per all.