MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Make "Bestiary" its own namespace
Sure, we have a namespace for galleries, but I don't see why we can't do the same for bestiaries. It's the same kind of "special" article that I would define galleries as as well. Therefore, I propose that we rename every instance of  to.

Proposer: Deadline: October 26, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 2, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 9, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.  Why not?
 * 5) This is (similar to?) one of the things Zeldawiki does that I think we should too.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Switch sides again, Per Toadette's comment.
 * 9) - Just because we've got fewer bestiaries than galleries doesn't really give much an excuse. This helps keep the wiki more organized than it would be, and that's more than a good enough reason IMO.

Oppose

 * 1) - For galleries it made sense because most major articles had one (there are currently 319); for bestiaries, I don't see the point at all. There are 12 proper bestiaries, I don't think this warrants a namespace by any means.
 * 2) Per Tucayo. I also don't see the benefit of this; it seems like more hassle then it's worth for little payoff when considering the few bestiaries on the page.
 * 3) Per Tucayo.
 * 4) - Originally supported, but considering the number of bestiaries there are, per Tucayo.
 * 5) I don't think we have enough pages of this thing to make it into a separate namespace. Per all.
 * 6) Per my comment below and Tucayo.
 * 7) Per all. I see what's trying to be done here, but it seems overly fiddly considering what is being effected, making this extra work for little reward.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Really?! Per all.
 * 10) - Per all. At least for now I don't see why this is needed.

Comments

 * I might just be a bit dumb, but I don't fully understand what this means or what the difference is. Could you give an example?-- 12:15, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * For example, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga bestiary would become if this were to pass. -- 12:18, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I can only see one problem with this. On every enemy page where the enemy template is placed, transcluding its info from the bestiary page, they look like this:
 * The bolded part is where we're going to get into some issues. It'll be a simple fix, but we'd have to change the link for EVERY page with an enemy template.-- 12:54, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds like bot work. 12:56, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * The bolded part is where we're going to get into some issues. It'll be a simple fix, but we'd have to change the link for EVERY page with an enemy template.-- 12:54, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds like bot work. 12:56, 20 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Could we keep the current names as redirects until all of the transclusions are fixed?
 * 14:05, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * @Ultimate Mr. L: Isn't that a standard measure? @Alex95: That was my exact plan for fixing those pages. 17:37, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

@Tucayo: "There's too little" is not an argument in and of itself. It's so that normal readers don't get confused into thinking it's an actual article. 18:00, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * They are articles, though?? What makes them any different from quote pages, lists of badges, recipes, assist trophies, etc.? Bold + italics doesn't make it true. -- 22:01, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Those are actual list articles. Bestiaries are not technically list articles; they are rather pages that are there to have individual sections be transcluded onto actual articles. 22:07, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But they are still articles by themselves. I truly fail to see the point here. -- 22:09, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Again, why do you think that they're actual articles? They are not meant to be. 08:25, 24 October 2017 (EDT)

If we gonna have them as separate namespaces I honestly think the category should expand to all list articles since they are the very similar to bestiaries. I honestly think having a separate namespace for just 12 pages for something very specific is inconsistent and unprofessional.
 * @NSY: Again, bestiaries ARE NOT technically list articles; they are relevant sections of a page transcluded onto other articles, and having too few does not make too much of a difference. Also, could you please elaborate on the "inconsistency" argument? I understand it less so than Tucayo's arguments. 15:10, 24 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Well according to dictionary.com a list is defined as "a series of names or other items written or printed together in a meaningful grouping or sequence so as to constitute a record". Pretty certain an article that has a record of every enemy and their stats falls under that. It's inconsistent because these would the only list articles that got their own namespace, what about the articles listing all the mini games in a Mario Party game, would they also get their own namespace.
 * No, because that's an actual list:
 * Balloon Burst
 * Bombs Away
 * Crazy Cutter
 * Where as the bestiaries are tables:
 * {| class="wikitable"

! Name !! Location !! HP !! Items
 * Bowser || Castle || 100 || Key
 * Goomba || Plains || 3 || Mushroom
 * Koopa Troopa || Mountains || 12 ||N/A
 * }
 * We don't list out the enemies on a bestiary like we do for every single list on this site. The lists are spilt up into categories, like the Species list, and they only have a name that links to it's main article, ONLY. Nothing else about that link exists on the page.-- 17:32, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * However, there are some "list" articles such as List of enemy formations in Paper Mario that are tables, so the lists are not always simply just a name that links to its main article. I agree that bestiaries are like list articles. -- 17:36, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Didn't know that existed. Is that article necessary? If so, seems like that should be integrated into the Paper Mario bestiary.-- 17:40, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I feel that there is enough information for it to remain separate (a proposal to merge it could be created though). Even if that and the Thousand-Year Door version were merged with their bestiaries, there are still other list articles that are more than just simply names (see Category:Lists for more examples). -- 17:55, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There is also List of Sammer Guys. The only reason why it is kept separate from Super Paper Mario bestiary is that it is a list of Sammer Guys fought in an optional thing (though the first 20 are required) and they are too similar to each other. As for another this bestiaries are, they are compendiums which is "a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication (not really relevant to these bestiaries, but I am quoting this word for word)" -- definition found by searching compendiums on Bing. The list of enemy formations and others listed here may be the only exceptions, though.
 * Didn't know that existed. Is that article necessary? If so, seems like that should be integrated into the Paper Mario bestiary.-- 17:40, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I feel that there is enough information for it to remain separate (a proposal to merge it could be created though). Even if that and the Thousand-Year Door version were merged with their bestiaries, there are still other list articles that are more than just simply names (see Category:Lists for more examples). -- 17:55, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There is also List of Sammer Guys. The only reason why it is kept separate from Super Paper Mario bestiary is that it is a list of Sammer Guys fought in an optional thing (though the first 20 are required) and they are too similar to each other. As for another this bestiaries are, they are compendiums which is "a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication (not really relevant to these bestiaries, but I am quoting this word for word)" -- definition found by searching compendiums on Bing. The list of enemy formations and others listed here may be the only exceptions, though.

Okay, this just doesn't make any sense at all. How and why in the world would we make this thing its own namespace if there are only twelve of it on the market right now? I don't get it. 17:49, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it's not really an article. Its main purpose is infoboxes to transclude onto articles. Because it is more than just an article, I feel it warrants its own namespace. It doesn't matter how few of them there are.
 * 19:48, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But why does it need a separate namespace to exemplify that fact? 20:00, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Are you suggesting that the Template namspace might be the ideal home for them? (Yeah, it just now occurred to me.) 13:25, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * ...No? 00:11, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

Decide if Nintendo Badge Arcade constitutes a guest appearance
Following Coverage, a proposal must be formed before an article can be created for a guest appearance. Nintendo Badge Arcade already has a page, but better late than never, right? Besides adhering to policy, it's important to decide on this game's coverage status for another reason: the Arcade Bunny. With every guest appearance on the wiki (SSX on Tour, Captain Rainbow, Minecraft, etc.), only the game itself receives a page, while everything of note is merely inserted onto the page. However, Arcade Bunny flies in the face of that, receiving an individual page even though it hasn't made any substantial appearances within the Mario franchise itself (and no, Costume Mario doesn't count, unless you want to have pages about Nisekoi characters and Babymetal due to what is nothing more than a reskin). The page itself doesn't have anything particularly novel, either, and it could easily be inserted into the game's page. If Nintendo Badge Arcade is considered a guest appearance, then the Arcade Bunny page is deleted and all is resolved. The game is definitely a guest appearance and not a crossover, by the way: though numerous Mario sections appear, they are 100% superficial, contributing nothing of value to the game itself, no more than the furniture in the Animal Crossing games. You could have cut-outs of Danny DeVito's head instead of Mario and nothing would be different. There's just enough Mario stuff to warrant the game's coverage on the wiki, but at the same time, there isn't enough to call it a crossover.

Let's nip this one in the bud and clean up the conundrums.

Proposer: Deadline: November 4, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Per proposal and comments below.
 * 3) Per all. In all honesty, I don't know. I think this page has something worth classifying it as more than a guest appearance, but seeing as how the Arcade Bunny gets a page even though he has almost nothing to do with the Mario franchise, I think this is the logical option.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) I thought long and hard about it, and yeah, creepy rabbit guy's page seems excessive, let's get rid of it.
 * 6) Per proposal.

Comments
@Lcrossmk8: The "status quo" directly goes against policy and was instated without anything official. We are deciding the status quo now. 22:51, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I am guessing that "support" means it should be constituted as a guest appearance and that "oppose" means it should not be constituted as a guest appearance. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. And anyway, why did nobody take a look at this before? I'm thinking we should just delete the Arcade Bunny article and not constitute Nintendo Badge Arcade as a guest appearance. 22:56, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * If Nintendo Badge Arcade isn't a guest appearance, what is it? 22:59, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

Thing is that several different Mario games appear in this. How would we go about listing that? 23:01, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * What are you referring to? Everything that's related to Mario is already noted on the game's page. 23:03, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I say that it is a mix between a crossover and a guest appearance. It crosses over multiple games but doesn't really make an impact, or...wait a minute. How in the world does this thing even matter? I don't know. All I know is that something's up with the Arcade Bunny. I don't know why, but he weirdly reminds me of the Energizer rabbit, you know, the one that appears in the commercials. I don't know, but something tells me we should not delete him. 23:05, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * what 23:10, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * If the Nintendo Badge Arcade article is deleted, would we stick "This game's artwork/sprites/whatever appeared in Nintendo Badge Arcade." in relevant articles? I'll admit the page is excessive, going into detail were it shouldn't really. 23:07, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * This proposal is not about deleting the Nintendo Badge Article. It is about whether or not the game is a guest appearance. At most, Arcade Bunny would be deleted. 23:10, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Ah, I see. Yeah, this and Arcade Bunny can go more in depth on the Nintendo Wiki. 23:13, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

@Lcrossmk8: I do not believe you can vote for multiple options if the proposal does not have more than two options. -- 08:34, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

Don't Relate Mario Creatures to real life ones as fact
This is my first proposal, forgive me if it's messed up. Also I couldn't find a good place for a proposal of this fashion, so I placed it here. Unless stated by Nintendo or other first party sources, Mario creatures should NOT be related to real life creatures. A prime example would be Koopa Troopa which some would call a "Tortoise". Another example would be Plessie a creature confirmed to be a dinosaur but not a confirmed species. Thus I propose that we can not assume a creature's species and label it as such. A example of why this issue can be false is Dorrie a creature we related to something in real life, but was confirmed to be something of its own. Also the Mario world is a world where platforms can appear out of thin air, and I think it's best that we try not to apply science to many aspects of the world including the creatures. To fix this I propose that no creature can be primarily labeled as anything it is not refered to (or at least not in the infobox). Any existing pages with this issue should be fixed to only include confirmed information. However a creature can still have it mentioned if they closely resemble something from real life in the Trivia or Physical Description. Also some creatures like Yoshi for example is classified as a yoshi and a dinosaur, so he has multiple species, but the yoshi part takes priority as more specific and direct. Wingo is my ideal vision, with it being in his physical description (although I would alter it) and his species is inarguably "Bird". I think I'll too in this proposal again some day but reworked.

Proposer: Deadline: "November 5, 2017, 23:59 GMT"

Support

 * 1) Per Proposal
 * 2) I believe this is what led to the misclassification of Rocky Wrench to be classified to be a Koopa when heated debates throughout the years on the Rocky Wrench talk page led to the discovery that the translation was correct about it being a turtle. I think fans made the jump to Koopa when no official source made such a connection between Koopas and turtles.

Oppose

 * 1) I think scientific accuracy and common sense are important. Ergo, this proposal kinda revolts me.
 * 2) A lot of Mario species are clearly based on real world animals, and pretending otherwise feels detrimental to me.
 * 3) There's a difference between speculation and implication. Speculation is theorizing something like Rosalina being Mario & Peach's daughter. Implication is Koopa Troopas' resemblance to turtles. Per Niiue.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) It was Nintendo which started saying that some enemies were real life animals, notably Lakitus being turtles in Super Mario Bros.. What we are doing here by relating to real life animals, when done properly, actually helps us understanding some design choices and is also a fascinating insight into the design of the characters themselves. As an example, did you know that Wingo has a color pattern (yellow beak, black feathers, orange legs) close to that of an, which is indeed a crow, the species mentioned by the developers? Not to say that these relationships are sometimes so evident that they are even noted by people following Nintendo on social media, the example of Glydon being relevant. If you want, we can discuss replacing "is" with "is based on" or even "is likely based on" when Nintendo doesn't directly confirm it or when it is more appropriate, but removing those relationship altogether seems a bit excessive to me.
 * 6) Although I'm iffy about making definitive statements about a character's species since that veers on heavy speculation and certainty (for example, this: "Wingo is a crow who...") I don't support getting rid of the connection altogether, for reasons people have already stated. I would at least keep "based on *real life animal" or "designed after *real life animal*. Like, "Loftwings are birds that are designed after shoebills..." rather than saying they ARE shoebills.
 * 7) Per all, especially BL.
 * 8) The whole Mario franchise is based off of two Italian plumbers who eat mushrooms to grow big and rescue the princess of a kingdom from a giant turtle dragon. That may sound weird, but everything but the giant turtle dragon, which is Bowser, of course, is more than real. Italians, plumbers, heck, even Italian plumbers for the sake of it, and princesses are most definitely objects that exist in real life. I don't understand why we have to distinguish Mario creatures from real-life ones if this is the case. And heck, that's not even getting into Super Mario Odyssey. That game literally involves Mario interacting with the humans! I think there is more than enough evidence to prove that Mario characters and creatures are definitely related to real-life creatures.
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
Didn't this proposal already happen? 02:27, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Different proposal. This is saying don't note similarities in articles proper. For instance, not be able to say Cluckbooms look like Roosters in the articles, and also take the category away. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:29, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

How about keeping the information as trivia (ie. so and so creature closely resembles a real-world species), but removing it out of the introductory paragraph? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:15, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Call a spade a spade, I say. We may be overstepping our bounds to definitively say that x character is literally some real-world species, but it'd be cumbersome and counterproductive to shove any mention of real-world animals to trivia sections, especially when their origins are obvious. 13:25, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

It would make sense to at least mention it in the physical appearance. Although the main point of the proposal is not to say it isn't a real life creature, but to say that we shouldn't list it as fact. Chat Man 13:40, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I think we should recheck the proposal and see the main point, we of course tend to use simple wording assuming that readers acknowledge that "is" when talking about ficitonal characters can't be literal - even the "is" of Nintendo when relating to real life animals isn't literal of course. We can discuss being more strict in the wording if you think the current wording could be confusing. The classification is also another beast, as we have to accomodate official information and ease of navigation together. Since the main text of the proposal is rightfully changing - it is allowed and due when the first version didn't catch the actual intention - I would like to know what we are aiming for.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

@WildGooseSpeeder Again, Turtle TRIBE refers to Koopas, not just any turtles. Mister Wu proved that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, the story is pretty complex, actually, as the wording of the story of Super Mario Bros. allowed various translations, not all of which were actually consistent with what the following games showed us. This is the actual text:
 * キノコ達の住む平和な王国に、ある日、強力な魔法を操る大ガメクッパの一族が侵略して来ました.
 * Essentially, now that we know what are the Japanese naming conventions, we can finally see what the manual said:
 * One day, the tribe of the great turtle Koopa who uses powerful magic invaded the kingdom of the mushrooms who live in peace.
 * but since 「の」 has various meanings and the translators couldn't simply know what would have been the actual depiction of the various characters, races and so on, this still technically appropriate translation ended being the translation found in the manual:
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * but since 「の」 has various meanings and the translators couldn't simply know what would have been the actual depiction of the various characters, races and so on, this still technically appropriate translation ended being the translation found in the manual:
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)