Talk:Giant Bowser

Is this article's title conjectural? I know the SSBM deal makes it at least part conjecture...

Did you say "Part Conjecture"? I  am   Confused  22:19, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * You know, half conjecture; half not. There's a whole template for that.

Um... Merge with Bowser???

I definitly say merge...... - Ultimatetoad

Yeah, merging it with Bowser would make a lot of sense. Keep the screenshot though :P -

If it's a conjectural form, then it should be merged. 15:16, 26 July 2007 (EDT)


 * I'd have to disagee with the merge. Hope I'm not becoming A Link to the Past. http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif

I'd say merge. But then again, we do have Giant Baby Bowser. 17:20, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

I request a merge with Bowser!

My opinion here is the same as in the Giant DK article. Besides, Giant Bowser is a boss in Melee and in New Super Mario Bros. So we should keep it. And I'm not saying this just because I wrote this article. --Xeze 07:19, 6 February 2008 (EST)

I'd say merge. Maybe a proposal is in order?
 * That name isn't even official. - 16:26, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Merge Giant Bowser to Bowser
I really don't see any reason to separate Giant Bowser from Bowser, since the two are clearly one and the same.

Proposer: Deadline: April 3, 2011 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per my proposal.
 * 2) I am Zero! Regular and Giant Bowser are the same person. There are no difference except with size; even at that point, Mario can still beat him. And plus the title "Giant Bowser" vaguely fits for several size versions of Bowser throughout the games. The ONLY Official Giant Bowser we have will be the Giant version of Bowser in PM: TTYD. Zero signing out.
 * 3) Per discussion, all, and proposal. The name is not even official.
 * 4) - Per proposal; per the precedent set on Talk:Giant Kirby. This isn't a separate entity, and it's not really an official power-up either: Bowser's always using different things to grow (meat, a minigame in his Rump Command, offscreen magic...), and his "giant" size varies drastically (i.e. in NSMB he's barely any bigger than he is normally). Growing huge is pretty much a standard ability of his by this point: it'd be better to give a succinct overview there, rather than keep this mass of unrelated "giant" situations. The fact that "Giant Bowser" appears more than the SSB-only Giant forms is irrelevant, as is the part about plot significance: the Bowser page and the game pages themselves can describe what happens perfectly fine without a corresponding stub here to link to.
 * 5) In some games, we don't even know if Bowser is Giant Bowser or if it is just size inconsistency. Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) - Per Walkazo. It keeps consistency. Plus, as far as I know, it's not exactly official.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) - Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) - As far as the article goes, this name has never been officially used, making its status as an actual distinct form ambiguous. As for the comparison with Super Mario: Super Mario is a distinct form of Mario that Mario achieves through means that stay relatively consistent netween installments (the Super Mushroom). The term Super Mario also appears in the instruction booklets of every game that has that form. Giant Bowser does neither of those things, and therefore that comparison  does not make a valid counter-argument in this case.
 * 12) - Per all.
 * 13) No different than Bowser, just a bigger form.
 * 14) Per all! Mega Bowser is no different. His name isn't even official.
 * 15) Per my big bro.! We fought over this a few minutes a go, he won. Wasn't pretty, the outcome...
 * 16) Per all instead!
 * 17) We used to have a Giant Baby Bowser article as well, but then it was merged with Baby Bowser, because it's the same character with a different size. Also to be noted, there's a picture of Bowser taken from Super Princess Peach, and I just checked the game and there, it's just referred to as "Bowser" in normal size and as "Bowser 2" in his bigger form.
 * 18) Per Castle Toad.
 * 19) I agree. The same logic applies here as with Giant Kirby and Giant DK.
 * 20) Per Zero777.
 * 21) Good idea Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) They are different so this should stay.
 * 2) Per Yoshidude99.
 * 3) Per all. Giant Bowser has more appearences than Giant Donkey Kong and Giant Kirby.
 * 4) Per Tails777.
 * 5) Giant Kirby and Giant DK are just bigger forms of their respective characters, this, however, has a bigger impact on the storyline and appears in many games.
 * 6) If it appears in multiple games and affects the storyline of the game (similar to what Bowser's luma said), then it should be a separate article.
 * 7) Per BL.
 * 8) - Mario gets big by eating Mushroom = Super Mario. Bowser gets big by eating Meat = Delete? No thx, my math skills refuse to allow me to support this equation (or proposal).
 * 9) Lets merge all of Marios forms into Mario?
 * 10) This isn't like Giant DK and Giant Kirby, Giant Bowser is a tad more prominent (<-understatement).
 * 11) per Pokemon trainer mario
 * 12) I kinda see what you're saying, but at the same time I think Giant Bowser has too big of an impact on several Mario games to merge him...

Comments
I should probably state that I'm not talking about Giga Bowser (who is obviously a separate entity). I only did up this proposal, because a similar one was done for Giant Kirby (which passed), along with Giant Donkey Kong (which seems likely to pass). I would think the same reactions would be applied to Giant Bowser too. 09:54, 20 March 2011 (EDT)
 * That sounds reasonable. I should agree with you on this. I think you're right, we do need to merge this.
 * We have the different articles for the different forms for Mario, Luigi, Yoshi and Wario. You realize that, right?
 * I am Zero! Like what for each one? Zero signing out.
 * We have Yoshi's forms from Mario Galaxy 2, we have pages for Tiny Wario, Wario-Man and all the forms from the Wario-Land series and we have pages for every single Mario form ever.
 * Shouldn't this at least be merged with Bowser?
 * That is exactly what this is proposing.
 * Orly? I thought the article was going to be deleted. I fail.
 * No you don't, it's just a simple misunderstanding.

I am Zero! I think Yoshidude99's oppose is invalid, and thus the next two opposers, since he doesn't really explain. Zero signing out.
 * Zero777: I think he means that Giant Bowser appears more than Giant DK and Giant Kirby.
 * I am Zero! He didn't explain anything at all, he just say that he thinks they should be separate without an explanation, so his vote, and the following two voters, is invalid. Zero signing out.
 * @Kaptain, that was I,, who talked about prominence. Not Yoshidude.

If anyone can prove that the name is completely official anywhere within the main Mario series (a.k.a. not SSB), I will gladly change my vote. -

I am Zero! GUYS THIS IS GIANT BOWSER, NOT GIGA BOWSER!!!! Zero signing out.

Well we have a full list of his moves in Melee and he appears in other games too. Thers my explanation Zero777. --Yoshidude99 03:55, 23 March 2011 (EDT)


 * Zero777: We are just calling it Giga Bowser because we are used to the name and please don't shout at us like that. Also he kinda is related to Giga Bowser. It is probably a nickname.
 * I am Zero! Yoshidude99, your argument is either unrelated or doesn't make sense and Kaptain K. Rool you can't shout in the internet, your argument is nothing more then fanism. Both of your arguments are invalid. Zero signing out.

@Pokemon Trainer Mario: I think your vote is invalid, the difference with it is that Mario's forms are official forms, while Giant Bowser's is not official.
 * Invalid =/= Illogical, his vote is valid as he has never said that Bowser's form was official. P.S. you missed your "I am Zero!"

@Opposers: How is this proposal different from Giant DK or Giant Yoshi or Giant Kirby?
 * This form (conjectural as it may be) appears in more games as a Bowser-specific form. DK never becomes giant except in Brawl, when he uses an item that can be used to make any character giant, same with Yoshi and Kirby. However there are no other characters that use Meat to grow, Bowser is unique in that concept and therefore it should be classified as a form.
 * This only applies to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. What are we going to do with the rest of the information?
 * I think it should be deleted, it just represents a larger-than-normal Bowser. The Meat-Bowser is the only time that it is a true power-up.

Well if we got rid of this article we woild have to delete quite a few good quality images. The Bowser article is big enough anyway.--Yoshidude99 05:34, 27 March 2011 (EDT)
 * No, the images would go into Gallery:Bowser. Also, merging this page would only increase the Bowser article's length by a few sentences, and if you think about it, removing this page would actually decrease the total amount of space we're dedicating to Bowser around the wiki. - 10:35, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

A Quandary
OK, there has been a new development. The Giant Bowser article is back, per this proposal. Now, the proposal is wanting to make an article for just the Giant Bowser of Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. But there were conversations during the duration of the proposal that ended with me wanting to list any instances of Bowser having drastic size changes within a game (so not his modest size changes between games or the small change in New Super Mario Bros.). From what I can tell, the original was a bit messy, mentioning any changes between games, as well as his size change when grabbing a Super Mushroom in the Super Smash Bros. series. I definitely do not agree with the latter because then we would have to make an article for the large version of every character since everyone can grab a Super Mushroom and the former is a bad idea because there is not much continuity between Mario games, so a minor size change between games does not warrant a mention. In a nutshell, should the article stick with just the Giant Bowser from Inside Story and maybe Dream Team, since those are the only officially named ones, or should we make the article for all of Bowser's size changes within games? (New Super Mario Bros. series, Super Princess Peach, Super Mario Galaxy 2, etc.) 11:04, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
 * Before I can say anything, I need to see the article (BiS and maybe DT). 13:28, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
 * As in you need me to create the new article or you need to see the old one? Just go to the history tab and click the second edit from the top, the last one before the page was turned into a redirect. It looks pretty bad. Giant Bowser has his own infobox, which just seems wrong, he's not a separate character. That, and it doesn't provide much information for anything except Melee, which is the section that shouldn't be covered at all!
 * 13:56, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
 * I am talking about the one you need to recreate because you proposed it. 14:04, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
 * Ah, I see. Just get to work on the Inside Story part and worry about the rest later? That makes more sense.
 * 14:08, 4 November 2016 (EDT)
 * Article created. I gave it just as much information as Giant Luigi. Have a look.
 * 15:30, 4 November 2016 (EDT)

If you are going to mention Giant Bowser X, why don't you add the normal version here and model it like the other normal giant battles. 20:06, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * Actually, I didn't mention Giant Bowser X. I just noticed that that was added into the template by another user. I'll remove that until it's decided if we are going to include just what's here now, what's here now + Dream Team, or every instance of significant enlargement within one game.
 * 22:19, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * I think Dream Team would be nice here. It is an official name (that and Giant Bowser X doesn't look good without a counterpart). 14:39, 11 November 2016 (EST)


 * Just Giant Bowser's appearance in the Mario & Luigi series, with an linking to Bowser. Otherwise we're basically going to end up resurrecting the old page.


 * 04:22, 13 November 2016 (EST)


 * OK then. It's decided.
 * 11:20, 13 November 2016 (EST)


 * Could someone with more knowledge of Dream Team add it in? We could also wait until I borrow it, but I'm not sure when that will be. It could be next week or next month.
 * 18:49, 15 November 2016 (EST)
 * Sure I was actually looking for a page to edit but yeah I will copy the stats over to the page. 19:04, 15 November 2016 (EST)

In regards to Giant Bowser being the only officially named form, this isn't entirely accurate. As an example, here's the New Super Mario Bros. Wii PRIMA Official Game Guide on pg. 171: "When Super Bowser begins spitting fireballs, edge up against the right wall and jump over the fireballs to let them bypass you. [...] After you defeat Super Bowser, you gain access to World 9!" There's also "Bowser 2" in Super Princess Peach (although the Glossary in the Japanese version just lists it as "Koopa" like the first entry), as well as "Mega Baby Bowser" seen in the Yoshi's Woolly World scrapbook. Should these cases be given their own articles as well? LinkTheLefty (talk) 01:47, 12 January 2017 (EST)


 * Interesting. The "Bowser 2" is probably just to differentiate it from normal Bowser, so it shouldn't be treated as a name, but the others... I'm not sure. It's a bit different, since the appearances listed here are named in-game. Your finds are in guides. I'm really not sure though.
 * 17:39, 22 March 2017 (EDT)
 * The scrapbook and glossary are in-game features, though. I'll grant you that Super Princess Peach has a noticeably rushed localization, so "Bowser 2" seems more like a text test they forgot to remove. As for Super Bowser, the wiki doesn't discriminate names if there's no other good source, and plenty of article titles currently come from Prima material. It's not like Nintendo Power wasn't error-prone at times (as an example, the Prima Superstar Saga guide was higher quality overall compared to its Nintendo Power counterpart). LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:30, 3 May 2017 (EDT)
 * To add to this, the internal filenames of Yoshi's New Island present another name: "Mega Koopa" (Mega Bowser), which can be found at G:/content0.game/romfs/megakoopa.bch.z. This is consistently used elsewhere (G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_kameck_for_megakoopa_apeear.bch.z, G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_megakoopa.bch.z, G:/content0.game/romfs/ev_megakoopa_model.bch.z, G:/content0.game/romfs/event/boss_megakoopa_appear01_r.csv & G:/content0.game/romfs/event/boss_megakoopa_appear02.csv). Like Yoshi's Woolly World, the name "Mega Baby Koopa" (Mega Baby Bowser) also similarly shows up. This is on top of the name "Super Bowser" used for the New Super Mario Bros. Wii Prima guide. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:45, 15 December 2017 (EST)

Dream Team
Right now the article looks pretty good, but there's one thing left and I don't have the knowledge to add it. I was able to write in the details of his Dream Team battle, but I know zilch about how he grew. Could someone add it in? 20:17, 21 November 2016 (EST)
 * Another question about Dream Team, is it OK to use Giant Bowser X's picture? I mean they look exactly the same, but the background is only ever shown behind Giant Bowser X, I think.
 * 11:46, 22 November 2016 (EST)
 * Never mind. I got the needed info from Bowser's article.
 * 13:34, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I think the picture should be changed, it would be weird having the image of Giant Bowser X and besides, an original one would be more representative. 13:36, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I can't seem to find a picture of normal Giant Bowser.
 * 13:51, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * We need a better image. The current one only shows about half of him. I'll try to get a better one.
 * 22:24, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I got a better image, but I have a question. Should he be facing the other way? Because I think the image I have is for left-handed gameplay and it looks weird to me (no offense to lefties, of course).
 * 10:44, 24 November 2016 (EST)

Quote
I can't find a quote from Giant Bowser. Could someone add one to the Bowser's Inside Story section? The article should be done after that. 13:35, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * "That’s an order! (to Paraplonk)" "Leave it to me." "Instead of crying, why not get big too?!" | "The lake… (looks left) Back here, too!" "Man… What’s this guy’s body made of?" "Aw, you wanna fly away?! Tough luck, sucker!" "Attacking this dude’s body seems useless… Maybe the head?; Nice! He’s sinking! Now I can whale on his head!" | "What’s your deal?" "Huh? Fireworks? Real festive…; Huh? Nothing! Worst fireworks ever!" "Weird fireworks, pal… Real weird. Well… Moving on… Time to deal with your ugly mug!" "NOOO! That thing’s sucking me in! don’t even try it!" "Aw, that again?! Come ON! (they shot it up) Please! I blast that thing down with a fireball! (Bowser shots a fireball and it starts to come down) GAHAHA! See that? All Bowser, baby!". And that's all of the quotes I can find. I think you should do the third one of the last quote, but it is up to you.
 * Note: Bowser's Castle | Tower of Yikk | Super Peach's Castle. ; separates time with nothing happening. s have notes about what happens in between.
 * 13:57, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I'm thinking either "Instead of crying, why not get big too?!" or "Time to deal with your ugly mug!" or "GAHAHA! See that? All Bowser, baby!" Which do you think?
 * 18:37, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I think the last one. 18:40, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I think so too. I'll add it in and remove the construction template.
 * 20:46, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * I'll also add a quotes section. I think he says enough to have that.
 * 20:49, 23 November 2016 (EST)
 * Sounds good. 22:05, 23 November 2016 (EST)

Oh no
I just played through Bowser's Inside Story again. It seems I was wrong about him being referred to as Giant Bowser in-game. Is there a guide that refers to him as Giant Bowser? If not, this page may need to be deleted yet again or at least rethought, as there's some question as to his "official" name in Dream Team, as well. And what's to be done about the "Super Bowser" issue brought up up there? 14:30, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
 * I'd say this article has enough information to stand on its own. If there is for sure no official name in the game (check save text, sometimes things pop up there), then a conjecture tag can be added. 16:23, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
 * I definitely think that deserves it's own article, probably covering even more games, if I had my way. I'm just wary of it because of its overwhelmingly unanimous deletion.
 * 16:47, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
 * Personally, I think this article would be fine covering info on every game in which Bowser has an obvious size change. For example, it would be silly to cover his larger-than-normal size in Mario Party games since we never actually see him growing, it's just his standard size in those games. But it would make sense to talk about the NSMB games, since we see him one size, then another. Of course, that's kind of what was going on when this page was first deleted, but maybe we could try again. It just seems silly to only cover the M&L games, especially if we discover that the form was never officially names there anyway.
 * 16:59, 23 April 2018 (EDT)
 * I don't think there's any Save Block text that mentions the giant battles. I know that there isn't for the last three and for the first one, I think it just talks about the Sliding Punch. I don't think he's name din Dream Team either, because I rewatched that whole scene and they never call him Giant Bowser (though Bowser does say that he invented "transforming into a giant", where transforming implies changing into a separate form). And then there's the closely related Giant Bowser X issue. I think we'll need to slap a tag on this. Then we need to talk about my above comment.
 * 19:43, 23 April 2018 (EDT)

Change this article's name and coverage or delete
This article was created under the assumption that Giant Bowser was officially named as such in the Mario & Luigi games. "Assumption" is a word which here means "I said Giant Bowser was the name and everyone took my word for it". I'm sorry to say that "delusion" would be a better word, as it is a word that means "I was completely wrong in saying that I knew the official name and I lead everyone to vote for a conjecturally named article with a weird amount of information."

Because it turns out, Giant Bowser is never referred to as such in any game, guide, movie, graphic novel, puppet show, or any official work ever, not even the M&L games. I was just plain wrong in believing it was called Giant Bowser in BIS, while I thought the name in DT came from the fact that there is an X Boss named Giant Bowser X. Except there isn't a boss named Giant Bowser X, just Bowser X. (That issue is discussed here.) So that means that this article has no official name. The only reason we chose to cover just these two game sis because we thought those were the games the name came from. Now that we know that that is false, there is no reason to cover only those two games.

It turns out, however, that there is an official name. The Prima guides for New Super Mario Bros. Wii and 2 refer to this form as Super Bowser. (Thanks to and  for that info.) So we have an official name, but only from the guides of two games. If the page stays, it will definitely be moved to Super Bowser. Beyond that, with the info we have, there are three options.

Cover all games with this form appearing: For this option, we move the page and cover every game in which Bowser has a significant size change within the given game. For example, Bowser quite clearly appears one size in BIS, then appears on a much larger scale. In Mario Party 10, he seems to be far larger than in the platformers, but we won't cover that because we never actually see him growing or at any other size for that matter. We won't cover size changes between games here, since Bowser's size is often inconsistent. We would have to slap on the page for this option. To be specific, here are the games we are covering: Let me know if I missed any. Cover only NSMBW and 2: One of the grounds on which this article was previously deleted is that the way Bowser grows is inconsistent (for example, in BIS, he grows when the Bros. power him up form the inside, while in DT, he eats a bunch of meat). Therefore, the proposal says, each growth could be seen as a totally separate form. If that is the case, it could be argued that we should only recognize the size changes that have official names (those two NSMB games) as separate forms. We may also cover any other size changes brought on magic, (e.g., NSMBU) since that's how the officially named forms come about. Voters of this option may presnet their opinions on NSMBU. Cover only NSMBW, NSMB2, and BIS: Same as the previous option, but with BIS added, to stay consistent with the fact that Giant Luigi has an article. Delete the page and forget this ever happened: The quick-and-clean way. Just put the article out of its misery.
 * Super Mario Sunshine
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii
 * Super Mario Galaxy 2
 * New Super Mario Bros. 2
 * New Super Mario Bros. U
 * Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door*
 * Paper Mario: Sticker Star*
 * Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
 * Mario & Luigi: Dream Team
 * Super Princess Peach

*I don't know enough about these to add them to the article without some help.

Proposer: Deadline: May 8, 2018, 23:59 GMT

All games

 * 1) This option makes the most sense to me.
 * 2) As long as the DT bestiary is fixed after this, and that Giant Bowser X article is merged with Bowser X, I’m in.  Per proposal.

Only NSMB Wii and 2

 * 1) - The name Super Bowser only seems to be used in the NSMB guides, so it doesn't make much sense to me to list every instance of size change under this title when it's only in reference to a few games.

Only NSMB Wii and 2 and BIS

 * 1) - Per my above vote, but also since Giant Luigi has an article, and there is enough information unique to "Giant Bowser", I say we can slap a conjectural tag on the Giant Bowser page and make Super Bowser a separate thing.
 * 2) Per Alex95.

Comments
Regarding Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Bowser changes size due to the power-ups, akin to Super Mario. There's no name given for the form in game, but maybe in a guide. Paper Mario: Sticker Star Bowser's size change is due to the Sticker Comet crown or something, so I say the information on him is fine where it is. Super Princess Peach's Giant Bowser is just simply named "Bowser 2", but I'm not sure what causes the change, as the Vibe Scepter doesn't seem capable of doing something like that. 13:08, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
 * @Ultimate Mr. L: Yoshi's Island DS, Yoshi's New Island, and maybe the original New Super Mario Bros. should be added to that list. On that note, Mega Baby Bowser should really have a separate article as well.
 * @Alex95: It's "Bowser 2" in the English version but just a second "Koopa" entry in the Japanese version, so I think it might just be a debugging oversight. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:35, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

Your third option has a discrepancy: In the description above, it says it's for just NSMBW, NSMB2, and BIS, while in the vote header, it says "NSMB games and BIS." Bowser grows larger at the end of all of the NSMB games, including the first, and in YNI. (You also left out YIDS and YNI in the list above...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:47, 24 April 2018 (EDT)


 * @Alex95 and anyone else voting for options 2 or 3, should we include NSMBU, since it come about in the exact same way as Wii and 2?
 * 14:13, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
 * Is there confirmation of a name anywhere? 15:43, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
 * According to Time Turner, the Prima guide just calls him "Bowser" But it seems silly not to cover it since he grows in the exact same manner as the other two games (magic).
 * 15:52, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
 * NSMB and NSMBU are a bit of odd cases, since in the first one he's larger after being resurrected by Bowser Jr., and in NSMBU he just grows offscreen. In contrast, in the other two we see Bowser specifically being enlarged onscreen with magic. -- 17:57, 24 April 2018 (EDT)
 * Scratch that, I just checked and there is a cutscene of Kamek using his magic on Bowser in NSMBU as well, so NSMB is the only oddball here. -- 18:12, 24 April 2018 (EDT)

Also, how about Super Mario Sunshine? He's huge during the battle there, and it's not intended to be the "normal" size for that game, as he's back to a more typical size in the closing cutscene. So it seems like a similar case to SMG2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:43, 24 April 2018 (EDT)


 * That's the one I was forgetting. Gracias.
 * 19:21, 24 April 2018 (EDT)