MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Ampersands in Navigation Templates
It's that time again, where we look at inconsistencies in the names of navigation templates! This time, we'll be looking at templates that use (or don't use) ampersands. It's not a given that if the game's title includes one, its corresponding template with also include one. None of the Mario & Luigi include it (Template:MLSS, Template:MLPIT, etc.), but scattered other examples include it (Template:M&SATLOG, Template:M&W, etc.). Three of the templates forMario & Sonic meanwhile substitute it for an A, as in "and", because that's not confusing in the slightest (Template:MASATOG, Template:MASATOWG, etc.). As with last time, I'll stress that having consistency is hugely important, because otherwise editors need to either remember the patterns for all of them, constantly look up the names to be sure they didn't screw up, or just make blind guesses and hope for the best. This is especially problematic when making new templates, and the editors have no idea what they should be doing (Yoshi Touch & Go, for example, still doesn't have a navigation template). Unlike last time, I don't strongly favour one side over the other: ampersands are similar to colons to some extent, and they're very much not necessary to quickly know what the template is about, but the word "and" is still a notable part of the title, and I doubt that anyone would complain if "and" was written in plain text and then included in the name (as with Template:MADKMOTM). At the very least, I'm going to say that using the letter "A" instead of "&" is bad, but otherwise, the choice is up to you.

Proposer: Deadline: November 19, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Include ampersands

 * 1) - Same with how I voted in your proposal about colons in nav templates (which ultimately didn't rule in my favor, but whatever), I think if the name of the title has the ampersand, then the abbreviation should include it.
 * 2) Per Alex. I'm sure a lot of users would refer to names like "Mario & Luigi" as "M&L", not "MAL".
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Very confusing otherwise, per all.
 * 6) With all the arguing I've done, this side appeals to me now. Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) This has been bugging me for a long time, and I'm glad someone finally stepped up!
 * 9) - They're part of the titles, aren't they?
 * 10) My vote is actually very specific. INCLUDE the ampersands in the Mario & Luigi and Mario & Sonic templates, but KEEP the "A" in Mario and Donkey Kong: Minis on the Move, as there is no ampersand in the actual title. Otherwise, per all.
 * 11) Per all.
 * , Ehh, I'll vote here too, as it makes sense.
 * 1) I think it's better than putting and A instead of the & present in the title; if we're including the initial of small words such as simple prepositions or articles in the abbreviations of the names, I'd say it makes sense to also use the ampersand if the title uses it.

Do nothing

 * 1) I think that our current system is fine. We use "and" when the name actually consists of "and", such as Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and we use the ampersand when the name has it. The only reason we exclude it from the Mario & Luigi games is because it's easier to distinguish them that way. Other than that, I think that we don't need to change how we write our templates. Call me conservative if you want, but it's been that way for a long time, long enough for me to get used to.
 * 2) The Mario and Luigi games already have very long titles as it is, while Mario and Wario would be two letters if abbreviated without the &. I think the case-by case we have now is fine. As for Mario and Sonic, it's a bit less clear due to them being less, how you say, popular.
 * 3) per Doc von Schmeltwick, case-by-case.

Comments
Uh, bro, did you forget to support your proposal and put a deadline on it? I hope not, this is just a reminder. 21:51, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Templates that use an ampersand
 * Template:G&Wario (on a side note, this name is inconsistent with everything)
 * Template:M&SATLOG
 * Template:M&W
 * Template:MM&FaC
 * Template:P&DSMBE
 * Template:P&DSMBE Levels
 * Templates that don't use an ampersand
 * Template:MLBIS
 * Template:MLDT
 * Template:MLPIT
 * Template:MLPJ
 * Template:MLSS
 * Templates that use "A"
 * Template:MASATOG
 * Template:MASATOWG
 * Template:MASATSOWG

@Lcross: the series is titled Mario & Sonic, and all of its games follow suit. I make note of that in the proposal. 22:10, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Uh...okay, then. I still don't know if I want to change the Mario & Luigi templates yet, though. 22:13, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * What's the difference between Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge? 22:15, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * I don't look like the guy who would know. In other words, I don't know. Other than the games themselves and what they are and what they specialize in and so on and so forth, I don't know. 22:20, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Votes should only be made when you're confident in your decision. It's fine to change it as time passes, but if you're unsure, perhaps it would be best to abstain for the moment. 22:22, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Yeah, I guess you're right, but I vote and do things mostly because I want to throw in my two cents and speak my mind on most of the issues that come abound on this wiki. However, I will keep that in mind. 22:25, 12 November 2017 (EST)

@Doc: What does popularity have to do with names? We're fine with abbreviating every single other name, barring an overlap. 22:57, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Because people are more likely to realize what they are with the & than without if it's not popular, but it's just clutter for the more popular ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:00, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * That's arbitrary and subjective, as if everyone is familiar with every single Mario & Luigi game to the point that they're somehow elevated above other games. What if they're not familiar with the games at all? Also, how does an ampersand help other games be recognized but just act as clutter for other games when all we have to work with is a few letters? 23:04, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * We're talking about in general. After all, all of the games and series in the Mario franchise get equally proportional coverage to how iconic and famous they are, and judging from that, I think they would get the hint pretty fast. 23:13, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * That's not true in the slightest. Every character, item, and location from every single game receives an article regardless of where it comes from. That's not proportional coverage, that's equal coverage. 23:19, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * How is that not proportional coverage? What I'm talking about is, every game and series in the Mario franchise gets proportional prominence, and depending on how iconic and famous it is, it just...shines a brighter light, and its content is more accessed and known. That's what I meant. 23:26, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * I don't think you know what the word "proportional" means. 23:27, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Yeah, that's literally not what the word "proportional" means, and the fact that some games "shine a brighter light" is seriously subjective. Why does that even matter for navigation templates? 23:30, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * It matters because we're talking about how the popularity of these games affects how their navigation templates should be handled. I'm saying that because the games and series get the coverage and attention equal to how popular and iconic they are in the Mario franchise, their navigation templates should be handled appropriately as such, with the popular ones being left alone and the obscure ones being given more attention. The ampersand does just that. 23:40, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * "the games and series get the coverage and attention equal to how popular and iconic they are" You were literally just told that this is completely false. And it is. 23:45, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Is it? I'm not completely convinced. The Super Mario franchise is the series that just fills the bucket of this wiki. Without it, the entire Mario franchise would have never existed, and not this wiki either. Most of the articles are the Super Mario series articles, and for good reason. And then you have the RPGs and the sports games. They too get a whole ton of coverage and articles on the wiki, but they're only second-best to the all-iconic Super Mario series when it comes to how much of it we have. After that, we've got some of the lesser-known games, such as Mario vs Donkey Kong and some other games that don't get as much attention, and it goes from there. I think there is some sort of social status or some hierarchy on the Mario Wiki that dictates what gets coverage and how much coverage it gets, all based on how popular, iconic, or famous it is, or if it belongs to one of the subseries that has these qualities, all behind the shadows. Call me intricate, call me a conspiracy theorist, call me just a kid who looks into things way too much, but I'm seriously thinking that the coverage of everything Mario franchise-related on this wiki is divided up this way, even if everything gets an article. 23:56, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * While it is true that articles pertaining to popular games will inevitably see more activity than more obscure stuff simply because more people are playing them and writing about them, that has jack diddly squat to do with our coverage policy. Otherwise every single rock and blade of grass in Super Mario 64 would have a page and our entire coverage of Mario's Time Machine would consist of a two-sentence article. If that. Also, how is any of that relevant to whether or not navigation templates should use ampersands? 00:07, 13 November 2017 (EST)
 * Because this is about how the popularity and attention that each of the series gets affects what we do with their navigation templates, and in an indirect way, the coverage they get. It's what Doc kind of alluded to when he said that nothing should be done with the templates like Mario & Luigi while we should give templates like Mario & Wario a little more time in the ghostlight. This is my point all along. 00:12, 13 November 2017 (EST)
 * Navigation templates don't get treated differently based on the notability or popularity of their subjects. 00:30, 13 November 2017 (EST)
 * Well, just exactly like Doc said, people are more likely to realize what the games are with the ampersand than without it if they're not popular, but for the popular ones, it's just clutter for them. And by the way, let's not put too many indentations in our comments. Make sure to reset the bar at some point, if you know what I mean. 00:34, 13 November 2017 (EST)
 * I've already brought this up: how do you know what's popular? You might think that it's blindingly obvious, but it's extremely possible for someone to encounter the templates with little to no knowledge of the series. And even if you want to be adamant about the series being super popular, why do you want to get rid of something that could only add clarity? The M&L templates are only four to five letters long in the first place; what clutter are you even trying to avoid, especially when that same clutter is perfectly acceptable in other templates? 00:44, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Somewhat off topic, but I think why is labeled as such is so it doesn't get confused with. I'd be for renaming it to "Template:Game & Wario", though, like how we have and. 11:11, 13 November 2017 (EST)
 * In my proposal to standardize template names in general, I actually bring up this up, and I suggested formatting the names like "G&Wario" (i.e. Template:YStory and Template:YSafari). This was later shot down, but it may be worth revisiting the idea. 12:21, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Also @Doc: you do realize that there are plenty of navigation templates with long names (like any of the level-exclusive ones) and there plenty of navigation templates with only three or two characters, right? It's not even like we're writing them in full; at most, one character will be added to them or remove from them. Is that a catastrophically large change? 14:08, 13 November 2017 (EST)

@Toadette: In that case, the "A" would remain, as there is no "&" in the title to fix. 17:10, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * Yeah, I only brought that up as an example. The list of affected templates is right here, and it's not on it. 17:16, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Super Hornio Bros Page
This is a bit of a controversial one, but here it goes. I think we should incorporate a full page on both Super Hornio films for preservation purposes instead of a mere description. I would like to do this, as the film is owned by Nintendo themselves, and the history behind them are extremely interesting. I've written a draft here: User:Howzit/Sandbox. We have so many other Mario knockoffs properly documented, why not this one?

Proposer: Deadline: November 19, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal

Oppose

 * 1) Okay, since this has absolutely no relation to the Mario franchise whatsoever, I don't think this is a good idea at all.
 * 2) This is a place that kids visit. We have nothing in place to stop people underage from accessing adult only content, even if it is appropriately censored. Swearing is one thing (Bob Hoskins for example), but pornography is just a big no-no for a kid-friendly franchise and an unofficial wiki that is also kid-friendly.
 * 3) The reason this is owned by Nintendo is that they bought it out to prevent more entries coming out, as they apparently hadn't discovered that wonderful "sue" button they've used to take down far more quality-controlled fan games ever since.
 * 4) Not gonna lie, I would love if we had an article on that. It would be pretty funny and interesting. But it's not an official Mario product, despite Nintendo themselves owning the distribution rights. As such, I don't feel it deserves its own article. Rather, just a section in the bootlegs and knockoffs page we already have.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) - I'm going to oppose on the ground that from my understanding, Nintendo only bought the distribution rights and not the actual Super Hornio property (of course in practice, this is not that relevant of a distinction because only Nintendo has controls over wheter that is released). Because of that technicality, I think the way it's currently covered on the knockoffs page is the best (btw "Think of the children!" is a totally invalid reason)
 * 7) I think the brief description's enough, it is just a rip off and isn't part of the Mario series, so it definitely doesn't deserve an article of its own.
 * 8) Per all
 * 9) A) It's a bootleg. B) It is quite easily covered in List of Mario knockoffs acknowledged by Nintendo, so per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Nintendo simply owning the distribution rights is not enough for a page like this to be covered in MarioWiki. While it may be tangentially related to Mario, it's around as relevant as Nintendo of America owning that Miami baseball team that I forgot the name of, and it borders on parody levels of content, which is not explicitly Mario (we don't mention Mario parodies on Mario's main article, for example such as Fix-It-Felix from Wreck-It Ralph, the same logic applies to Super Hornio Brothers). Everyone has already said that the best place for it to belong is an entry bootleg article and I agree with them, as it still deserves a mention of some sort by still being related to Mario.

Comments
@Wildgoosespeed: We already cover it on the wiki. Also, the subject matter is irrelevant, as we're a wiki first and foremost (as the point was made on Bob Hoskin's page; we're not about to censor anything). Besides, have you read the draft? It's purely professional. 01:12, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * The more you know, am I right? Still, I consider such coverage questionable. -- 01:14, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Official content is official content, no matter what form it takes. What should be debated here is whether or not it should be covered in full. For the moment, I'm leaning towards giving it a separate page, simply because it was bought by Nintendo and is therefore an official product. 01:20, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Legal definitions are messy. I mean, the Mario IP was licensed to those who made the Category:Edutainment Games for DOS, PC, NES, and SNES, but that doesn't mean that the games are owned by Nintendo are official. Maybe I am wrong about that. The point is the original author isn't Nintendo and yet giving credit to them as if they were because they bought the film rights isn't quite right to then label it as "official". Legalities isn't the only measure of being official. I think that Nintendo has long since forgotten those licensed instances of the Mario franchise. -- 01:34, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Yeah TT the only way it's official is that Nintendo literally owns it and tell me what does that really mean?

@TimeTurner: Oh. My bad. I had no idea. I should probably think twice before I start shooting my mouth off for no reason. 18:35, 12 November 2017 (EST)
 * Seems nobody actually read my post. If anyone paid attention, yes, I am WELL aware that it is a knockoff which was then bought by Nintendo to stop production. I had even put that in my draft I wrote before hand. I simply wanted to just create a full page for more coverage on the topic, but apparently so many people are "offended" by having a full page on it. (Howzit) 15.11.2017
 * That's very presumptuous of you. Note the various other reasons stated in the opposition. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:04, 16 November 2017 (EST)
 * Thanks, I can read. (Howzit) 15.11.2017
 * Well then you know that the opposition is coming from policy due to it not being within this wiki's coverage to support a full page, not due to people being "offended" by its content. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:15, 16 November 2017 (EST)
 * "This is a place that kids visit. We have nothing in place to stop people underage from accessing adult only content, even if it is appropriately censored. Swearing is one thing (Bob Hoskins for example), but pornography is just a big no-no for a kid-friendly franchise and an unofficial wiki that is also kid-friendly." Also, it is entirely in the wiki's coverage. I wouldn't have made this post if it wasn't. Don't post a comment on a topic you know nothing about. (Howzit) 16.11.2017
 * It is completely outside the wiki's coverage. It is a bootleg parodic film made outside Nintendo without their permission, and as such deserves its own article here as much as Dian Shi Ma Li, Kart Fighter, Somari, Super Maruo, or whatever on Earth this is. Yes, Nintendo bought the distribution rights, but only because they didn't want it to exist. They didn't buy the rest of the rights, including the ones for the film itself. Also, do not insult people by telling them they know nothing about how this works, especially when they have more constructive edits here. While that doesn't describe me personally, it describes many of the others you're essentially yelling at here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:06, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * It's so completely outside of the wiki's coverage that we already have a section of a page dedicated to it? 01:27, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * Crazy kids. Everyone gets offended over nothing now. I did not insult you. All you're doing is telling me stuff I already know. Stop telling me they bought the rights, I already knew that. It's also extremely obvious that you know nothing about the film. "Oh you're yelling at me here", you take everything as an "insult". Stop crying about it. I've done nothing nor said anything wrong, yet you keep making these half-arsed accusations of me. You are also literally stalking my posts. All of my recent posts, has had a reply from you. Quit it. (Howzit) 16.11.2017
 * You insulted me by saying I knew nothing about this, when in fact I did indeed do research on this film, as well as its plot and history. Rule of thumb: Telling people they're ignorant is generally considered to be an insult. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * Cant be an insult if it's true. I actually own these films, unlike you. I've been studying them for over a decade. I think I know my stuff. (Howzit) 17.11.2017
 * You just said it is an objective fact that I am ignorant. This, combined with your suspicious recent userpage edits, is really starting to unsettle me. Stop, please. (Also I'm not ignorant, I made a 33/36 weighted average on my ACT the first try). Anyways, by textbook definition, you insulted me. Just because you're losing a proposal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:43, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * Why would you be unsettled if they weren't even aimed at you? You need to mind your own business. Second of all, It's not because of me losing a proposal. You replied to my comment, so naturally I replied back. After that you started throwing a complete two-year-old fit that I was "insulting you". (Howzit) 17.11.2017
 * And you started using implausible deniability to claim you weren't saying I was a moron who doesn't do research when you outright said "Cant[sic] be an insult if it's true" (which is flawed logic anyways). Anyways, the comment I made was in response to your emo-woe-is-me "Oh everyone's so 'offended,' that's the only reason they wouldn't support this!" comment. If you're going to accuse people of acting like they're of an age that people normally are just learning to speak, make sure you aren't doing the same thing. Also, "my own business." This is a community page, it's everyone here's business. As for your userpage, it's meant to be read by other wiki members, and they are allowed to draw their own conclusions from it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:50, 17 November 2017 (EST)
 * You know absolutely nothing about me, you don't know who I am. What I decide to post on my own user-page is my own business. You can look at it all you want, I don't mind, but don't ask me about it. It has literally nothing to do with you. Look, I'll give you one bit of advice. Don't comment on back or on any of my other stuff. I don't want to see another single comment coming from you on any of my posts. You really need to learn to shut your mouth. Stop trying to just get the last word and let it die. (Howzit) 17.11.2017

This rubbish can stop here, or you’ll both be blocked.

07:08, 17 November 2017 (EST)

what is going on, someone hold me  ~Camwood777  (talk)  11:47, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Bring back game-similarity charts
Okay, so anyone reading this probably doesn't know what I'm talking about. Let me give you an example. This was my first edit on the wiki. I fixed the chart under "gameplay menus". But now this chart and the other one are both gone. The editor that removed the charts gave a one-word summary: "Unnecessary". It has happened with Mario Golf (series), Mario Tennis (series), Mario Party (series), and several others. Why? "Unnecessary" is an unacceptable reason to remove such charts. As an encyclopedia and a wiki, we should never remove info because we classify it "unnecessary". An encyclopedia includes all obtainable information, necessary or unnecessary. Therefore we should stop the removal of these charts and bring them back.

Proposer: Deadline: November 20, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Those charts don't give any information, they only show similarities between games. I don't see how they help to convey information and agree that they are (apologies in advance) unnecessary. If you can tell me how they are useful, I'll consider changing my vote.
 * 2) These charts are incredibly unwieldy and they make a shoddy attempt at comparing two different types of gameplay. It's uninformative, a messy way to organize comparisons, and simply writing similarities and comparisons in prose format is far more useful to the leader than creating a confusing table that lists elements that do not have anything in common with each other at all. Our gameplay sections in the way the articles are written are fine and are better than what they used to be.
 * 3) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 4) - These doesn't really seem useful in the least.

Comments
Your edit link is fouled up. To get it to display the word This, remove the  and replace it with a space. Right now, the link not only looks wrong, it doesn't work right. 15:55, 13 November 2017 (EST) P.S. I noticed that your were trying to fix the  issue. That's a glitch that shows up all the time. To fix it, just throw some sort of code under the header. A colon works nicely, since it then doesn't actually show up on the page, but the header works right.

I kind of get why someone would want a quick 'n' easy way to check which Mario Tennis games (for an off-the-cuff example) allow mirro matches, but man, not like this. Ugly, IMAX-wide charts that only get uglier and bigger the more games are released. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Online Flash games
We currently have little coverage on official Flash-powered games used by Nintendo to promote their games in the past. In fact, the only relevant thing here is the Barrel-Blastapalooza page, which I wrote and nobody seemed to mind, but when a bunch of other games were added to the Mario games nav template, they got removed by someone stating that they need to be discussed first.

Many of these games were listed in a selection on Nintendo's website (link: https://web.archive.org/web/20070911004647/http://www.nintendo.com/arcade).

Under 's guidance, I decided to make a proposal dedicated to the matter. Should we give official Flash games the same treatment as full-fledged games? Should there be a separate template to include them all?

I visualise three options:
 * 1) Each Flash game could receive its own page. I strongly recommend this to be done because I consider these games to be games after all, no matter if they are mere advertisments. Donkey Kong Country: Barrel Maze is an example of a game that seems to stand on its own without a relation to a particular game, and if it is to have an article, the other games should too.
 * 2) Info on Flash games could simply be incorporated in one big article. This would mean merging Barrel-Blastapalooza with said article. I'm not keen on the idea, but it could be a workaround for games that have become unavailable, whereabout information is scarce.
 * 3) The Flash games should not be covered. I obviously don't agree with this option, since we're talking official material.

Proposer: Deadline: November 25, 2017 23:59 GMT

Make separate pages for Flash games

 * 1) per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) I don't see why we shouldn't cover them, so per proposal.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) They're games.  They're official.  Hence, we cover them.  Per all.
 * 7) Some of them might look simple and thin in content when compared to other videogames, but they're still games licensed by Nintendo and I guess the content there should be anyway enough to make a page for each one of them, as Barrel-Blastapalooza showed.
 * 8) Per all. (I had no idea that Nintendo used Flash games.)

Present the games in a comprehensive article

 * 1) Considering Flash games are smaller than full-fledged games, this seems like a workable option.
 * 2) This isn't a bad choice either.  After all, it still covers the information.

Comments
@Super Radio: My suggestion to make a proposal wasn't over wheter the flash games should get their own pages (it's offishul material and nobody has objected) but rather wheter they should be listed alongside "real" games on templates or rounded up in their own ghetto (personally I favor the later solution). --Glowsquid (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2017 (EST)
 * I'd personally vouch for them appearing on Template:MarioGames and the like. If they're official, we might as well treat them officially (and if the Donkey Kong slot machine is already on the template, I think they'll be in good company). At the very least, we could have a computer games template and lump in the edutainment games with the flash games. 22:00, 18 November 2017 (EST)
 * @Glowsquid: I know, and I did ask in this proposal if web games should have their separate template. However, I wanted a proposal to discuss the whole matter of Flash games, as it was requested by Lindsay151 to happen. I agree with Time Turner; there should be a template with all PC games like Mario's Time Machine and Mario's Missing, which could include Flash-based games. Although Flash is a computing platform in itself, similar to any OS, the games in question were only meant to be playable on a PC via web browser (any sort of emulation notwithstanding). -- 05:02, 19 November 2017 (EST)