MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52

Change the way that recurring Mario & Sonic events are handled, round 2
After the no quorum result of the last attempt at this proposal, I've taken on board the comments from last time and changed the proposal to reflect this. So, at the moment, there's an issue in the way that events that appear in more than one of the Mario & Sonic games are handled, as events that share the same or similar names across games are all put together on the same article, despite the fact that they are very different between games, using different controls, scoring systems, characters, etc.. This isn't only a problem between Wii/Wii U and DS/3DS instalments, which would obviously and understandably have very different controls and slightly modified gameplay, but also between games on similar consoles, for example, the Trampoline event in the first DS game required certain patterns to be drawn with the stylus to perform various moves and the player to slide up with the stylus to jump, whereas in the 2012 3DS game moves are performed automatically and the player must use the circle pad to keep their character within a certain area, pressing the A button to jump. This means that infoboxes are overloaded with excessive information, defeating their purpose, and that the articles are a complete mess of headers and sections. 100m Dash and 100m Freestyle are examples of this, and please keep in mind that they still have a considerable amount of missing information, particularly from the later games. Part of the reason that all of the events are sharing one page seems to have apparently stemmed from the fact that they're currently being treated as generic subjects, which is not really how they should be viewed. They should be treated in a similar way to minigames, with each getting an individual article, even if they share a name, a few controls or subject that they're based on. Just because they're based on a real world subject, it doesn't mean that they should be covered like one (And any that currently have generic subject-like articles will be changed in the future, to give them more of a minigame-like focus, similar to 100m Breaststroke). Additionally, several Dream Events also share this issue (Including Dream Race, Dream Long Jump and Dream Bobsleigh), which are in no way affected by the generic subjects policy, and should be treated as separate minigames, but are currently all placed on the same page for being similar. These should also be split, in the same way as the regular events, as the two are treated as the same thing within the games.

Therefore, I'm proposing that we split each game's version of the event into its own unique article, which only covers the event's appearance in the one game. Only the controls, missions, playable characters, etc. for one game's version of the event would be included on that page, and an About template would be added to the top of name-sharing articles with a link to the disambiguation page for the other events or the events with a similar name. An identifier would be added to any articles with shared names, and I'm currently thinking that it would specify only the game if it only appears in one of the instalments for a specific year (Such as "Pole Vault (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic games)", which appears in the 3DS version but not the Wii one), or both the game and console if it appears in more than one version (Such as "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Nintendo 3DS))" and "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Wii U))"). This is just how I think the identifiers would work from what I can piece together from here, but unfortunately, it's not really designed to help out in cases like this thanks to naming in the Mario & Sonic series, so any other suggestions for identifiers are more than welcome. Any shared names would be turned into disambiguation pages, listing all of the separate articles and any with similar names, such as 100m and 100m Dash. If an event has a slightly different name in one or more instalments, it will use that name instead of the similar one that all the other events are named after with an identifier, but will still have the about template and so on. Events such as Balance Beam that only appear in one game will not be affected by this and will remain at the one name.

So, in summary, each version of an event from each game is split and given game-specific identifiers (Or some other form of identifier if a better one is suggested), the shared title is turned into a disambiguation page and About templates are added, events with different names between versions go to the unique names and events that only appear once remain unchanged.

Proposer: Deadline: July 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Sure. And maybe the original page for each event would be a disambiguation?
 * 4) Definitely. I have all of the games for both consoles each, so I can assist if necessary. Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.

Comments
@SeanWheeler: Yep, that's the plan, things like Archery (event) would be turned into disambiguation pages, and ones that already share a name like Football will be added onto the existing one. BBQ Turtle (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Actually, Archery (event) should undergo a page move instead to preserve page histories, and the Archery page should instead list the two events. 13:11, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's a good idea, alright, so we'll move the current Archery to Archery (class), Archery (event) to the now empty Archery, convert that into the disambiguation page, and have the separate games' information split off onto the separate pages, which is linked to from the disambiguation page along with the class. If I find any other pages with the same names as their classes, the same thing will happen there too. BBQ Turtle (talk) 14:27, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Additionally, for the Archery events in particular, I'd suggest using and . For the other cases (such as one event sharing its name with another event on a different release of the same game and with yet two other events on different releases of a different game), talk to Porplemontage and he might know what to do.  19:50, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, the thing is, Archery is one of those awkward ones- it is appears in every game except 2012 for Wii, even 2016 Arcade. There's not a problem with 2012 3DS, as it's listed as Archery (Individual) and Archery (Team), so it'd go to those names, but if we named the 2016 3DS one that, things might start getting confusing. 100m Freestyle would only be worse too, as it appears in every instalment, and I don't think the name changes at all unlike 100m and Javelin. I don't know really, naming's hard with this lot, the determining the identifier thing doesn't really cover this case. BBQ Turtle (talk) 16:38, 12 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Maybe Porplemontage would like to look at this case. 11:15, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

Split the levels exclusive to the Wii U version of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker from their Super Mario 3D World counterparts
I edited Super Bell Hill, Conkdor Canyon, Shadow-Play Alley, and Clear Pipe Cruise back in early 2017 under the impression that they were still the same level, albeit with some alterations. However, now that we have those levels replaced with originally-named levels based on Super Mario Odyssey kingdoms, I'm inclined to split these levels by appearance. In fact, I'm surprised that I never thought to do this already, since we already split similar-looking things based on different appearances. Therefore, I propose we split the aforementioned levels by their Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Wii U) appearances.

Proposer: Deadline: July 20, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comments, these seem to be the same levels just with minor differences to account for the new control scheme.
 * 2) The comments have covered just about everything. These are not different levels, they have the same name, appearance, and design, just with slight alterations so Captain Toad can traverse them.
 * 3) Per the comments. These seem to be the same levels, with minor differences to make them work as Captain Toad levels, unlike the Super Mario Odyssey kingdom levels, which all have their own names and are redesigned as miniature versions.
 * 4) Per all, there's a much bigger difference between the Captain Toad Odyssey levels and the original Odyssey kingdoms than in the Captain Toad 3D World levels and the original 3D World levels.
 * 5) That'd be like splitting Super Mario All-Stars/Super Mario World/Super Mario World 2 levels with the Super Mario Advance games' levels because appearances can be slightly different.

Comments
Aren't they still basically the same level though? I don't see what them being replaced with Odyssey-based levels has to do with whether the pages are split or not. -- 12:00, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * @Waluigi Time: Read my second point. It's my main reason for proposing this. 12:44, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I think the key difference between those examples and these is that those are similar levels/worlds with the same name, while these are the same levels with minor changes to account for Captain Toad's different controls. I'd also like to point out that we have the worlds from NSMBU/NSLU merged, which seems more similar to the case of the Captain Toad levels than the ones you listed. -- 14:46, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And yet there are other examples, such as Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey), despite it essentially being the same thing as the main article. 15:40, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's also another case, as the main article refers to the location itself, while the Odyssey level is split because... well, it's a specific level in Odyssey. Bowser's Castle and Luigi's Mansion are both split into several articles for similar reasons. -- 16:03, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The Super Mario Odyssey-based levels aren't "same level with maybe a ladder or two added," and from what I gather that's roughly what the Super Mario 3D World-based levels are. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And what about the Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 missions such as Bowser's Fortified Fortress and Bowser's Big Bad Speed Run? Their basic layout is essentially the same, except they have different attributes that set them apart. 22:37, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Same reason we have a Paper Goomba article, covering only information from Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Differences found within one game are treated as more major than between games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The layout in both versions of these levels is the exact same with slightly different elements to accommodate the gameplay. Splitting them would mean copy-pasting, which is against one of the site's rules: Once and Only Once. On the other hand, levels from Donkey Kong Country 2, while sharing the same names as those in Donkey Kong Land 2, have different layouts as if they were new levels. Also, Jumpy Jungle from MvDKMLM is an attraction in an amusement park, while Jumpy Jungle from MvDKTS is not, making them fundamentally different--plus, it's only good to keep them separate like that for continuity. -- 12:44, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * True, but we do have multiple articles of World 1-1 ("Super Mario Bros.") despite them all being the same with little differences, including an article I made. 14:00, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yet we don't split Mario Kart racetracks based on the versions they appear in. The Captain Toad levels are the same case as those. -- 15:26, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * To put this point in perspective, the original Cheese Land seems to be on the moon. But when it reappeared in the MK8 DLC, it's based off of the Utah desert instead. A similar situation exists with Ribbon Road. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

@TheFlameChomp: Actually, the English version of the Japanese Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker Switch trailer translated that bit as "miniature." Sure sounds like that when I listened to it and my suspicions were right. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

Split Switch/3DS ports with substantial new content
This is an inconsistency on the wiki that's been bothering me for a while now. Currently, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze on Switch is merged with the Wii U version, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker on Switch and 3DS are merged with the Wii U version, and the upcoming Luigi's Mansion remake for DS is merged with the Gamecube version. After inquiring about this, I was told that games like this are only split if the title is different, or if there are big gameplay differences like the Mario & Sonic games.

However, I think this is silly and arbitrary. Tropical Freeze has a new mode with a new playable character that has his own unique mechanics and Treasure Tracker has new levels while also removing some others, yet somehow these games aren't considered worthy of their own article while a game like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS, Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D, or Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World is, simply because they have the same name as the original. Obviously, this should be decided on a case-by-case basis, because if a port/remake doesn't have any new features, it probably wouldn't warrant an article.

If this proposal passes, the following articles will be split and a precedent will be set for the future:
 * Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (Nintendo Switch)
 * Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Nintendo Switch/Nintendo 3DS)

I'd also suggest that future games like Luigi's Mansion will be decided once the game has been released and we can evaluate it properly.

Proposer: Deadline: July 23, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) I personally support this. Even if the game hasn't changed that much, Poochy and Yoshi's Woolly World hasn't changed that much either. P&YWW adds some additional costumes and, like Tropical Freeze on the Switch, an easy mode. What makes Woolly World's port more notable than Tropical Freeze's port?
 * 3) Per all
 * 4) To be frank, this is the same sort of situation as the Game Boy Donkey Kong, as it's an expansion of the game with the same name that came years later on another system. Case-by-case is definitely the way to go.
 * 5) Arguably, I think using simply the title as a precedent to split something is extremely weak to begin with. The content of what it contains is more important than how it's named (the title possibly couldn't even be chosen by a developer to begin with, it could be set by a publisher looking to gain sales rather than establish its own thing based on what it has but don't quote me on that if I'm incorrect) and frankly, as someone pointed out earlier, Poochy's Woolly World's changes are around as minimal as the new Funky mode in Tropical Freeze while something really drastic as Luigi's Mansion for 3DS gets lumped under the same article. While I do agree that something really drastic like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe gains its own article, the line to set of how drastic changes to the game isn't clear but as it stands now, I don't think our current way to do it is the way to go. As others pointed out, I do think case-by-base is a good solution for this.
 * 6) Changing vote, per Baby Luigi. However, I think that for the two mentioned games only, the original release still takes priority over the ports.
 * 7) Per Baby Luigi.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comments below.  We need more discussion about this.  I honestly think merging is a better idea here than splitting.
 * 2) The current way of handling these is the best. Otherwise, things could get messy and/or unnecessary.
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
I was just going to propose the opposite: merge standard ports. I'd still propose keeping the deluxe ports separate, though. I feel like we need more discussion on this matter before proposing this. I think that these ports should stay merged, but we also merge stuff like Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World and Super Mario Maker for 3DS. That would give us fewer stubby articles to worry about. But I feel like we need more discussion before proposing something like this or my idea. - 17:15, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * These articles wouldn't be stubs though. If an article has all the information about its subject, then it's not a stub. -- 20:28, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I didn't say that they would be stubs. But they would be unnecessarily short, and I feel that we'd be better off giving these ports a single paragraph in the original game's article.  Not just Tropical Freeze and Captain Toad, but also stuff like Mario Maker and Returns 3D. - 21:25, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Um... Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D adds new levels and uses a little bit of a different system, but more so than the current Funky Mode. Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS levels are totally different from Super Mario Maker levels, even those that are based on those. Besides many differences in that game. So much, that even if you can make a case for Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D, it can't be applied to Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS. As for Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World, I don't know all differences besides the added Poochy levels, but one look at this image, and I can tell that the world layouts are indeed different. 23:20, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I think Super Mario Maker for 3DS is a fairly substantial article and could stand on its own. The list of changes and screenshots help prop it up without bloating the other article. I don't know a clue about the Yoshi game though. 14:24, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I can see somewhat what you mean, but P&YWW adds levels, but DKCTFNS doesn't. Content wise, P&YWW is surprising more than DKCTFNS. However, it isn't on the page, unlike DKCTFNS. CCTTNS/3DS isn't worth being created for me. And the NS(/3DS) at the end are just for proposal sake. 14:46, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

It would be better if the pages were actually specified, rather than just being sort of a nebulous proposal. Do you intend this to be a start? 06:19, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I did specify in the proposal that this would split Tropical Freeze and Treasure Tracker, and maybe Luigi's Mansion down the road once it's released. With all the Switch and 3DS ports coming out lately, this seems to be Nintendo's strategy going forward, so I figured it would be best to get it out of the way and set a precedent now instead of down the line with potentially a lot more than just 3 games to take care of. -- 12:01, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

@Toadette That's what this is proposing. To allow for a case-by-case analysis without an obstructive policy getting in the way of that. If I'm reading this right, anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:43, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Correct, like I said this proposal doesn't cover Luigi's Mansion because it hasn't been released yet and we will decide later, just like other potential upcoming ports. -- 11:41, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Changed my vote already. IMHO, the only ports which shouldn't be split from the original releases are the New Play Control! games, since arguably they're the exact same game with different controls added. 14:45, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Um... One is. The other isn't. Although, they seem similar in design to the New Funky Mode of Tropical Freeze. And there's a lot in the one that has an article, but not in the one that doesn't. 15:11, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

Reduce the minimum number of entries for game-specific categories
There are just too many scenarios where there are three or four game specific things: the number of levels in Donkey Kong, the number of levels in Donkey Kong Jr., the number of levels in Donkey Kong 3, the number of minigames in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, the number of ATVs in Mario Kart 8, the number of minigames in Paper Mario: Color Splash...the list goes on. It's so big of a problem that at least the moves and minigames categories are clogged up, and the problem would have been even more prevalent if not for the franchise-specific categories. Plus, there are gaping inconsistencies all over; why do we not get to create a category on Mario Kart 8s ATVs when we can make a category on Mario Kart 8 Deluxes ATVs? That's not to mention that other wikis, like ZeldaWiki and Bulbapedia, don't even have these kinds of limits. Therefore, I propose that we reduce the minimum number of required entries in game-specific categories from five to three, as that amount makes the most sense to me, though there's also an option for having the minimum at four instead.

And if you're wondering, Porplemontage gave the green light for this proposal.

Proposer: Deadline: August 12, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Three entries

 * 1) My preferred option.

Four entries

 * 1) Second choice, maybe if three ends up being too extravagant.
 * 2) As long as it's game-specific and done to avoid major category clog, I'm fine with this. I just don't want a category for a creature species that has only 3 pages, like some wikis have, clogging everything....(Moving from 3 as this option didn't exist at the time)
 * 3) Three to me is too little. I think four is at least a better minimum.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Sounds good, Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker has four episodes, Donkey Kong Land has four worlds... yeah, this is a necessary change.
 * 9) Four isn't too bad, but if there are useful categories calling for three, then go for it too. No need to enforce such a hard line, so use your common sense if you need to.
 * 10) Per all, especially Bazooka Mario.
 * 11) Per all.

Five entries (keep current limit)

 * 1) - I'm going to agree with the five limit minimum, as if it doesn't have that many entries, the category likely doesn't need to be made in the first place. Having less than five entries just seems too little to me and makes the use of a category unnecessary, especially if there's also a navigation template involved.
 * 2) Per Alex95

Comments
"That's not to mention that other wikis, like ZeldaWiki and Bulbapedia, don't even have these kinds of limits." - I know I've said this several times before, but what other wikis do shouldn't be taken into account for what we do. 20:49, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * That doesn't mean that what other wikis do shouldn't be examined to see if and how it fits into what we do. On another note, if you ask me, the glaring omission of feels really inconsistent. Keep in mind, this applies long-term, too, so what you see as a "solution looking for a problem" now might be the exact opposite later on.  21:11, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * About the point regarding Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs, why not just create a category called "Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs"? Or actually, why do we even need the "Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs" when we already have ATVs as a category? 15:18, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * And why is the Inkstriker not in the ATV category? Is it because it's exclusive to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and would be redundant? If you were to pass the proposal and make the Mario Kart 8 ATV category, would you also remove those Mario Kart 8 entries too (thus the ATV category would still be too small to be its own category, having only two entries, if we're following consistency with how the Inkstriker is categorized) or add the Inkstriker in the ATV category? If not, why create a third nearly-identical category? It makes more sense to me to just have one category called "ATVs" and maybe italicize Inkstriker (if that's possible) and say that italics are exclusive to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. If a new game comes out with new ATVs, then we can make a new category called "Mario Kart 8 / DX ATVs", something like that. 15:25, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * As far as I know, italicizing within categories only happens when redirects are categorized (e.g. Casino Delfino in Category:Casinos). Anyway, I don't see a point to the ATVs category being split either. So far, they only appear in one game and its remake, so it seems really redundant to me. Just because a category can be split doesn't mean it should. 20:26, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I believe the split is to anticipate new games, but for now, I don't see the point in those extra ATV categories. 22:00, 6 August 2018 (EDT)

How about four? 00:11, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Good point. I guess this should be a multi-option proposal then. 00:42, 6 August 2018 (EDT)