MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52

Change the way that recurring Mario & Sonic events are handled, round 2
After the no quorum result of the last attempt at this proposal, I've taken on board the comments from last time and changed the proposal to reflect this. So, at the moment, there's an issue in the way that events that appear in more than one of the Mario & Sonic games are handled, as events that share the same or similar names across games are all put together on the same article, despite the fact that they are very different between games, using different controls, scoring systems, characters, etc.. This isn't only a problem between Wii/Wii U and DS/3DS instalments, which would obviously and understandably have very different controls and slightly modified gameplay, but also between games on similar consoles, for example, the Trampoline event in the first DS game required certain patterns to be drawn with the stylus to perform various moves and the player to slide up with the stylus to jump, whereas in the 2012 3DS game moves are performed automatically and the player must use the circle pad to keep their character within a certain area, pressing the A button to jump. This means that infoboxes are overloaded with excessive information, defeating their purpose, and that the articles are a complete mess of headers and sections. 100m Dash and 100m Freestyle are examples of this, and please keep in mind that they still have a considerable amount of missing information, particularly from the later games. Part of the reason that all of the events are sharing one page seems to have apparently stemmed from the fact that they're currently being treated as generic subjects, which is not really how they should be viewed. They should be treated in a similar way to minigames, with each getting an individual article, even if they share a name, a few controls or subject that they're based on. Just because they're based on a real world subject, it doesn't mean that they should be covered like one (And any that currently have generic subject-like articles will be changed in the future, to give them more of a minigame-like focus, similar to 100m Breaststroke). Additionally, several Dream Events also share this issue (Including Dream Race, Dream Long Jump and Dream Bobsleigh), which are in no way affected by the generic subjects policy, and should be treated as separate minigames, but are currently all placed on the same page for being similar. These should also be split, in the same way as the regular events, as the two are treated as the same thing within the games.

Therefore, I'm proposing that we split each game's version of the event into its own unique article, which only covers the event's appearance in the one game. Only the controls, missions, playable characters, etc. for one game's version of the event would be included on that page, and an About template would be added to the top of name-sharing articles with a link to the disambiguation page for the other events or the events with a similar name. An identifier would be added to any articles with shared names, and I'm currently thinking that it would specify only the game if it only appears in one of the instalments for a specific year (Such as "Pole Vault (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic games)", which appears in the 3DS version but not the Wii one), or both the game and console if it appears in more than one version (Such as "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Nintendo 3DS))" and "BMX (Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Wii U))"). This is just how I think the identifiers would work from what I can piece together from here, but unfortunately, it's not really designed to help out in cases like this thanks to naming in the Mario & Sonic series, so any other suggestions for identifiers are more than welcome. Any shared names would be turned into disambiguation pages, listing all of the separate articles and any with similar names, such as 100m and 100m Dash. If an event has a slightly different name in one or more instalments, it will use that name instead of the similar one that all the other events are named after with an identifier, but will still have the about template and so on. Events such as Balance Beam that only appear in one game will not be affected by this and will remain at the one name.

So, in summary, each version of an event from each game is split and given game-specific identifiers (Or some other form of identifier if a better one is suggested), the shared title is turned into a disambiguation page and About templates are added, events with different names between versions go to the unique names and events that only appear once remain unchanged.

Proposer: Deadline: July 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Sure. And maybe the original page for each event would be a disambiguation?
 * 4) Definitely. I have all of the games for both consoles each, so I can assist if necessary. Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.

Comments
@SeanWheeler: Yep, that's the plan, things like Archery (event) would be turned into disambiguation pages, and ones that already share a name like Football will be added onto the existing one. BBQ Turtle (talk) 05:25, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Actually, Archery (event) should undergo a page move instead to preserve page histories, and the Archery page should instead list the two events. 13:11, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's a good idea, alright, so we'll move the current Archery to Archery (class), Archery (event) to the now empty Archery, convert that into the disambiguation page, and have the separate games' information split off onto the separate pages, which is linked to from the disambiguation page along with the class. If I find any other pages with the same names as their classes, the same thing will happen there too. BBQ Turtle (talk) 14:27, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Additionally, for the Archery events in particular, I'd suggest using and . For the other cases (such as one event sharing its name with another event on a different release of the same game and with yet two other events on different releases of a different game), talk to Porplemontage and he might know what to do.  19:50, 11 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Well, the thing is, Archery is one of those awkward ones- it is appears in every game except 2012 for Wii, even 2016 Arcade. There's not a problem with 2012 3DS, as it's listed as Archery (Individual) and Archery (Team), so it'd go to those names, but if we named the 2016 3DS one that, things might start getting confusing. 100m Freestyle would only be worse too, as it appears in every instalment, and I don't think the name changes at all unlike 100m and Javelin. I don't know really, naming's hard with this lot, the determining the identifier thing doesn't really cover this case. BBQ Turtle (talk) 16:38, 12 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Maybe Porplemontage would like to look at this case. 11:15, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

Split the levels exclusive to the Wii U version of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker from their Super Mario 3D World counterparts
I edited Super Bell Hill, Conkdor Canyon, Shadow-Play Alley, and Clear Pipe Cruise back in early 2017 under the impression that they were still the same level, albeit with some alterations. However, now that we have those levels replaced with originally-named levels based on Super Mario Odyssey kingdoms, I'm inclined to split these levels by appearance. In fact, I'm surprised that I never thought to do this already, since we already split similar-looking things based on different appearances. Therefore, I propose we split the aforementioned levels by their Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Wii U) appearances.

Proposer: Deadline: July 20, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comments, these seem to be the same levels just with minor differences to account for the new control scheme.
 * 2) The comments have covered just about everything. These are not different levels, they have the same name, appearance, and design, just with slight alterations so Captain Toad can traverse them.
 * 3) Per the comments. These seem to be the same levels, with minor differences to make them work as Captain Toad levels, unlike the Super Mario Odyssey kingdom levels, which all have their own names and are redesigned as miniature versions.
 * 4) Per all, there's a much bigger difference between the Captain Toad Odyssey levels and the original Odyssey kingdoms than in the Captain Toad 3D World levels and the original 3D World levels.
 * 5) That'd be like splitting Super Mario All-Stars/Super Mario World/Super Mario World 2 levels with the Super Mario Advance games' levels because appearances can be slightly different.

Comments
Aren't they still basically the same level though? I don't see what them being replaced with Odyssey-based levels has to do with whether the pages are split or not. -- 12:00, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * @Waluigi Time: Read my second point. It's my main reason for proposing this. 12:44, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I think the key difference between those examples and these is that those are similar levels/worlds with the same name, while these are the same levels with minor changes to account for Captain Toad's different controls. I'd also like to point out that we have the worlds from NSMBU/NSLU merged, which seems more similar to the case of the Captain Toad levels than the ones you listed. -- 14:46, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And yet there are other examples, such as Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey), despite it essentially being the same thing as the main article. 15:40, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * That's also another case, as the main article refers to the location itself, while the Odyssey level is split because... well, it's a specific level in Odyssey. Bowser's Castle and Luigi's Mansion are both split into several articles for similar reasons. -- 16:03, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The Super Mario Odyssey-based levels aren't "same level with maybe a ladder or two added," and from what I gather that's roughly what the Super Mario 3D World-based levels are. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * And what about the Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 missions such as Bowser's Fortified Fortress and Bowser's Big Bad Speed Run? Their basic layout is essentially the same, except they have different attributes that set them apart. 22:37, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Same reason we have a Paper Goomba article, covering only information from Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. Differences found within one game are treated as more major than between games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

The layout in both versions of these levels is the exact same with slightly different elements to accommodate the gameplay. Splitting them would mean copy-pasting, which is against one of the site's rules: Once and Only Once. On the other hand, levels from Donkey Kong Country 2, while sharing the same names as those in Donkey Kong Land 2, have different layouts as if they were new levels. Also, Jumpy Jungle from MvDKMLM is an attraction in an amusement park, while Jumpy Jungle from MvDKTS is not, making them fundamentally different--plus, it's only good to keep them separate like that for continuity. -- 12:44, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * True, but we do have multiple articles of World 1-1 ("Super Mario Bros.") despite them all being the same with little differences, including an article I made. 14:00, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yet we don't split Mario Kart racetracks based on the versions they appear in. The Captain Toad levels are the same case as those. -- 15:26, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
 * To put this point in perspective, the original Cheese Land seems to be on the moon. But when it reappeared in the MK8 DLC, it's based off of the Utah desert instead. A similar situation exists with Ribbon Road. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

@TheFlameChomp: Actually, the English version of the Japanese Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker Switch trailer translated that bit as "miniature." Sure sounds like that when I listened to it and my suspicions were right. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2018 (EDT)

Split Switch/3DS ports with substantial new content
This is an inconsistency on the wiki that's been bothering me for a while now. Currently, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze on Switch is merged with the Wii U version, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker on Switch and 3DS are merged with the Wii U version, and the upcoming Luigi's Mansion remake for DS is merged with the Gamecube version. After inquiring about this, I was told that games like this are only split if the title is different, or if there are big gameplay differences like the Mario & Sonic games.

However, I think this is silly and arbitrary. Tropical Freeze has a new mode with a new playable character that has his own unique mechanics and Treasure Tracker has new levels while also removing some others, yet somehow these games aren't considered worthy of their own article while a game like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS, Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D, or Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World is, simply because they have the same name as the original. Obviously, this should be decided on a case-by-case basis, because if a port/remake doesn't have any new features, it probably wouldn't warrant an article.

If this proposal passes, the following articles will be split and a precedent will be set for the future:
 * Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (Nintendo Switch)
 * Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Nintendo Switch/Nintendo 3DS)

I'd also suggest that future games like Luigi's Mansion will be decided once the game has been released and we can evaluate it properly.

Proposer: Deadline: July 23, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) I personally support this. Even if the game hasn't changed that much, Poochy and Yoshi's Woolly World hasn't changed that much either. P&YWW adds some additional costumes and, like Tropical Freeze on the Switch, an easy mode. What makes Woolly World's port more notable than Tropical Freeze's port?
 * 3) Per all
 * 4) To be frank, this is the same sort of situation as the Game Boy Donkey Kong, as it's an expansion of the game with the same name that came years later on another system. Case-by-case is definitely the way to go.
 * 5) Arguably, I think using simply the title as a precedent to split something is extremely weak to begin with. The content of what it contains is more important than how it's named (the title possibly couldn't even be chosen by a developer to begin with, it could be set by a publisher looking to gain sales rather than establish its own thing based on what it has but don't quote me on that if I'm incorrect) and frankly, as someone pointed out earlier, Poochy's Woolly World's changes are around as minimal as the new Funky mode in Tropical Freeze while something really drastic as Luigi's Mansion for 3DS gets lumped under the same article. While I do agree that something really drastic like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe gains its own article, the line to set of how drastic changes to the game isn't clear but as it stands now, I don't think our current way to do it is the way to go. As others pointed out, I do think case-by-base is a good solution for this.
 * 6) Changing vote, per Baby Luigi. However, I think that for the two mentioned games only, the original release still takes priority over the ports.
 * 7) Per Baby Luigi.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comments below.  We need more discussion about this.  I honestly think merging is a better idea here than splitting.
 * 2) The current way of handling these is the best. Otherwise, things could get messy and/or unnecessary.
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
I was just going to propose the opposite: merge standard ports. I'd still propose keeping the deluxe ports separate, though. I feel like we need more discussion on this matter before proposing this. I think that these ports should stay merged, but we also merge stuff like Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World and Super Mario Maker for 3DS. That would give us fewer stubby articles to worry about. But I feel like we need more discussion before proposing something like this or my idea. - 17:15, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * These articles wouldn't be stubs though. If an article has all the information about its subject, then it's not a stub. -- 20:28, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I didn't say that they would be stubs. But they would be unnecessarily short, and I feel that we'd be better off giving these ports a single paragraph in the original game's article.  Not just Tropical Freeze and Captain Toad, but also stuff like Mario Maker and Returns 3D. - 21:25, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Um... Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D adds new levels and uses a little bit of a different system, but more so than the current Funky Mode. Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS levels are totally different from Super Mario Maker levels, even those that are based on those. Besides many differences in that game. So much, that even if you can make a case for Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D, it can't be applied to Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS. As for Poochy & Yoshi's Woolly World, I don't know all differences besides the added Poochy levels, but one look at this image, and I can tell that the world layouts are indeed different. 23:20, 16 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I think Super Mario Maker for 3DS is a fairly substantial article and could stand on its own. The list of changes and screenshots help prop it up without bloating the other article. I don't know a clue about the Yoshi game though. 14:24, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I can see somewhat what you mean, but P&YWW adds levels, but DKCTFNS doesn't. Content wise, P&YWW is surprising more than DKCTFNS. However, it isn't on the page, unlike DKCTFNS. CCTTNS/3DS isn't worth being created for me. And the NS(/3DS) at the end are just for proposal sake. 14:46, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

It would be better if the pages were actually specified, rather than just being sort of a nebulous proposal. Do you intend this to be a start? 06:19, 17 July 2018 (EDT)
 * I did specify in the proposal that this would split Tropical Freeze and Treasure Tracker, and maybe Luigi's Mansion down the road once it's released. With all the Switch and 3DS ports coming out lately, this seems to be Nintendo's strategy going forward, so I figured it would be best to get it out of the way and set a precedent now instead of down the line with potentially a lot more than just 3 games to take care of. -- 12:01, 17 July 2018 (EDT)

@Toadette That's what this is proposing. To allow for a case-by-case analysis without an obstructive policy getting in the way of that. If I'm reading this right, anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:43, 18 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Correct, like I said this proposal doesn't cover Luigi's Mansion because it hasn't been released yet and we will decide later, just like other potential upcoming ports. -- 11:41, 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Changed my vote already. IMHO, the only ports which shouldn't be split from the original releases are the New Play Control! games, since arguably they're the exact same game with different controls added. 14:45, 21 July 2018 (EDT)
 * Um... One is. The other isn't. Although, they seem similar in design to the New Funky Mode of Tropical Freeze. And there's a lot in the one that has an article, but not in the one that doesn't. 15:11, 21 July 2018 (EDT)

Reduce the minimum number of entries for game-specific categories
There are just too many scenarios where there are three or four game specific things: the number of levels in Donkey Kong, the number of levels in Donkey Kong Jr., the number of levels in Donkey Kong 3, the number of minigames in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, the number of ATVs in Mario Kart 8, the number of minigames in Paper Mario: Color Splash...the list goes on. It's so big of a problem that at least the moves and minigames categories are clogged up, and the problem would have been even more prevalent if not for the franchise-specific categories. Plus, there are gaping inconsistencies all over; why do we not get to create a category on Mario Kart 8s ATVs when we can make a category on Mario Kart 8 Deluxes ATVs? That's not to mention that other wikis, like ZeldaWiki and Bulbapedia, don't even have these kinds of limits. Therefore, I propose that we reduce the minimum number of required entries in game-specific categories from five to three, as that amount makes the most sense to me, though there's also an option for having the minimum at four instead.

And if you're wondering, Porplemontage gave the green light for this proposal.

Proposer: Deadline: August 12, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Three entries

 * 1) My preferred option.

Four entries

 * 1) Second choice, maybe if three ends up being too extravagant.
 * 2) As long as it's game-specific and done to avoid major category clog, I'm fine with this. I just don't want a category for a creature species that has only 3 pages, like some wikis have, clogging everything....(Moving from 3 as this option didn't exist at the time)
 * 3) Three to me is too little. I think four is at least a better minimum.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Sounds good, Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker has four episodes, Donkey Kong Land has four worlds... yeah, this is a necessary change.
 * 9) Four isn't too bad, but if there are useful categories calling for three, then go for it too. No need to enforce such a hard line, so use your common sense if you need to.
 * 10) Per all, especially Bazooka Mario.
 * 11) Per all.

Five entries (keep current limit)

 * 1) - I'm going to agree with the five limit minimum, as if it doesn't have that many entries, the category likely doesn't need to be made in the first place. Having less than five entries just seems too little to me and makes the use of a category unnecessary, especially if there's also a navigation template involved.
 * 2) Per Alex95

Comments
"That's not to mention that other wikis, like ZeldaWiki and Bulbapedia, don't even have these kinds of limits." - I know I've said this several times before, but what other wikis do shouldn't be taken into account for what we do. 20:49, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * That doesn't mean that what other wikis do shouldn't be examined to see if and how it fits into what we do. On another note, if you ask me, the glaring omission of feels really inconsistent. Keep in mind, this applies long-term, too, so what you see as a "solution looking for a problem" now might be the exact opposite later on.  21:11, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * About the point regarding Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs, why not just create a category called "Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs"? Or actually, why do we even need the "Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ATVs" when we already have ATVs as a category? 15:18, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * And why is the Inkstriker not in the ATV category? Is it because it's exclusive to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and would be redundant? If you were to pass the proposal and make the Mario Kart 8 ATV category, would you also remove those Mario Kart 8 entries too (thus the ATV category would still be too small to be its own category, having only two entries, if we're following consistency with how the Inkstriker is categorized) or add the Inkstriker in the ATV category? If not, why create a third nearly-identical category? It makes more sense to me to just have one category called "ATVs" and maybe italicize Inkstriker (if that's possible) and say that italics are exclusive to Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. If a new game comes out with new ATVs, then we can make a new category called "Mario Kart 8 / DX ATVs", something like that. 15:25, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * As far as I know, italicizing within categories only happens when redirects are categorized (e.g. Casino Delfino in Category:Casinos). Anyway, I don't see a point to the ATVs category being split either. So far, they only appear in one game and its remake, so it seems really redundant to me. Just because a category can be split doesn't mean it should. 20:26, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I believe the split is to anticipate new games, but for now, I don't see the point in those extra ATV categories. 22:00, 6 August 2018 (EDT)

How about four? 00:11, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Good point. I guess this should be a multi-option proposal then. 00:42, 6 August 2018 (EDT)

Create articles for the various status effects inflicted by Roy in Paper Mario: Color Splash
As it stands, Category:Paper Mario: Color Splash Status Effects is very minimal, and doesn't meet the minimum entries for game-specific categories (more on that in a different proposal (permalink)). Under the current policy, it should be deleted.

However, instead of keeping this category in a grey area, why not add information on the various status effects inflicted in the first segment of the battle with Roy? After all, Poison is one of them, which makes the omission of the other status effects really inconsistent. To break it down for you, here's a full list of the status effects inflicted by Roy:
 * Mario's action command speeds up.
 * Mario can't use cards with blue backgrounds. (conjectural name)
 * Mario's action command slows down. (conjectural name)
 * Mario can only use cards with blue backgrounds.
 * Mario can only use pre-painted cards.

If anyone has official names for the ones listed as conjectural, in the digital manual or otherwise, please feel free to let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: August 13, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
Would that be ? Rage is already a Super Princess Peach vibe. 21:10, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yes. 21:11, 5 August 2018 (EDT)

I'm curious, why have you given one of the conjectural ones the name of "Rhythm?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:15, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Because there isn't really a better conjectural name to give it. If you want the game's description, it's "Mario can't resist the rhythm! Get those blue cards outta here!" Do you, by any chance, happen to have a better conjectural name for it? 00:46, 6 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Nope, I haven't been able to acquire the game yet. I was just curious, as the description in the proposal didn't itself seem to relate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2018 (EDT)

Why not create an article of list of status conditions? Might make more sense if the names are conjectural. 15:28, 6 August 2018 (EDT)


 * I would agree with Bazooka Mario, we should use a list instead.  18:32, 13 August 2018 (EDT)

Stop listing reused artwork as a reference to an older game
Right now, whenever a piece of character artwork is remade/reused, it's considered a reference in the references section. But I say... why? It's a practice Nintendo's been doing for years, and the poses are always very generic. I don't think anyone at Nintendo says "Hey, remember that Mario Party game from 10 years ago? Let's reference it by reusing Bowser's character artwork!". Therefore, I propose we remove any mention of character artwork remakes from the reference sections. (For example, File:WarioGoodQual.PNG vs. File:Wario MP100.png)

Proposer: Deadline: August 29, 2018, 23:59 GMT Date Withdrawn: August 23, 2018, 16:18 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Per proposal and comments.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Reusing artwork isn't Nintendo referencing the source game, it's them saving money.  The artwork rarely even appears in the games!  That said, per proposal.
 * 6) Per all; this has been one thing that has really been a concern for me for years, but not to the magnitude that it is now.

Oppose

 * 1) I liked this proposal better before the change. See my comment below. Furthermore, the change made to the proposal text is waaaaaaay too subtle, to the point that it has the potential to confuse voters; YFJ's vote looks like it was meant for the original proposal.
 * 2) Per 7feetunder, and Mario jc in the comments.

Comments
I'd per support, but that last line gets me. Why not just make it so only actually reused art counts as a reference? 17:57, 22 August 2018 (EDT)
 * The last line refers to "references" such as this: "Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition: Artwork of Luigi and Yoshi from this game are reused on one of the smaller banners." What exactly do you dislike about it? -- 19:15, 22 August 2018 (EDT)
 * What I meant was I agree with the whole "this artwork isn't exactly the same as a previous one, so it's not a reference" thing. But why would it be a stretch to say that reusing earlier game artwork in game or for promotional material (the Mario Party and Mario Kart series reuses art on occasion) is a reference? 19:18, 22 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Ah, I see. Yeah, I think that's reasonable. I'll change the proposal. -- 19:37, 22 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Alright, looks good. 19:40, 22 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I disagree entirely. I preferred the original proposal idea and it should still be an option. I completely fail to see how remaking artwork from a previous game is somehow less of a reference than simply reusing it, especially since reusing artwork isn't really a reference to begin with, it's a cost-cutting measure. They don't reuse artwork to reference previous games, they do it because it's less expensive and time-consuming than making new art for every single entry in a franchise that sees the release of such a large number of games. Even setting aside whether or not artwork reuse qualifies as a reference, I don't get how simply remastering the artwork (as shown in the above example) magically makes it completely unrelated. 00:59, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I agree. If anything the remastering is more of a reference than reusing. 02:28, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I'm in agreement here. Can I change the proposal now, or would it be better to take it down and start over with more options? -- 12:00, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * It's early enough that you have the option to do either. If former, you should message the voters that the proposal has changed. 12:06, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

Would this extend to reusing sound effects and voice clips as well? 02:28, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Not in particular, although I'd like to address that in the future too. -- 12:00, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

Implement "See also" sections in Mario Party minigame and WarioWare microgame articles for related mini/microgames
Since there are so many minigames/microgames, I believe that people who look through them often end up finding one that is similar to what they are looking for but it's not, or they find of and it reminds them of something similar and want to find it. (This happens to me at least.)

I think it would be interesting that to have a "See also" section that we can use to link to mini/microgames that are remarkably similar in concept or theme. For example:
 * Flash Forward: See also Slaparazzi
 * Revolving Fire: See also Hazard Hold
 * Dry Eye: See also Laser Vision
 * Nighttime Allergies: See also Snivel Disobedience and Allergy Attack
 * Hectic Highway: See also Outta My Way and Racing 112
 * Oh, the Irony: See also The Irony
 * Classic Clash I: See also Classic Clash II and Classic Clash III
 * Zero to Hero: See also Bam-Fu and Log Chop
 * Noodle Cup: See also Circuit Path, maybe?
 * Balancing Act: See also Broom Shtick, maybe?

Just to make it clear, we wouldn't do that for microgames that simply have similar gameplay if it's not remarkable, or that simply have a similar character show up as some sort of easter egg (this is more fitting for trivia anyway).

Anyway, having this section would also make it needless to mention the similarities between mini/microgames elsewhere, like in the introduction paragraph or in a trivia section, which is often inconsistent as it is now.

Proposer: Deadline: August 28, 2018, at 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) My proposal, so yeah.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) I also don't think this needs a proposal but it would be really helpful to establish this standard anyway. Though the one concern I have is that are we just going to lump all minigames of this archetype into this list together? Despite having the same concept, Cut from the Team and Cheep Cheep Chance are very thematically differet.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) As long as this proposal is about simply adding the "see also" sections and not removing the existing similarities sentence(s) in the article leads (since there are many different ways to express a similarity between two or more minigames/microgames), I'm all for implementing this. Per all. P.S.: To add to Baby Luigi's comment, Cut from the Team is more similar to Pier Pressure.
 * 6) Adding a "see also" section will be useful for navigation. Per all.
 * 7) This proposal is not needed.
 * 8) I think it is good for organizing the minigames and their similarities, considering that quoting the similarities in the body, in the trivia and in other sections would be confusing. To have it will make the users have a easier way to navigate through the wiki. Supported by me!

Comments
Wouldn't it be better if you also proposed that we did this for Mario Party series minigames as well? 23:59, 20 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Oh, right. I didn't think about that. 00:14, 21 August 2018 (EDT)

I don't really think this needs a proposal. That's pretty much why we include "See also" sections in the first place, to direct readers to other similar subjects. 00:12, 21 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but I thought it was just better to see if there were other opinions about it rather than just start mass editing, doing things "my way" without getting any sort of approval. 00:17, 21 August 2018 (EDT)
 * In certain cases (Slaparazzi, for example), it already says it's similar to a previous game. 00:19, 21 August 2018 (EDT)
 * That's right, but it's also about how they are handled. Like, as I said on the last paragraph of the proposal, some articles mention similarities in the introduction paragraph, others in trivia, others in gameplay sections, and others don't mention similar games at all. It's kind of messy. 00:24, 21 August 2018 (EDT)

@Toadette the Achiever It's not; read the last paragraph. It would also be kind of redundant to mention the similarities in the main body and have a "See also" link to that similar microgame. 03:22, 24 August 2018 (EDT)

@Baby Luigi: Yeah, personally I wouldn't list those two minigames together either. When I said "concept", I meant the actions done during the game and the context rather than the gameplay. To be fair, I actually had only microgames in mind when I came up with this, and minigames are just more complicated. But I don't know. I guess that, if this passes, we'll just decide on the go?

Does the movie Pixels warrant guest-appearance coverage?
The thought sparked after reading this statement on the revamped Donkey Kong (franchise) page:

"The original arcade iteration of Donkey Kong appears as the main antagonist in the 2015 film Pixels".

Well, shouldn't it warrant a page then?

After doing some digging, it seems this is most, if not all of DK's screentime in the movie so calling him the "main villain" of the movie is a bit misleading. On the other hand, it still substantial enough that Donkey Kong has some stakes in the plot of the movie (unlike, says, Bowser's cameo in Wreck-It Ralph) and furthermore, according to Wikipedia's summary of the "plot", the Donkey Kong arcade game itself is integral to the movie as it's prominently featured in the oepning scene and it drives one of main character's motivation for the rest of the film. You can split hairs and say the DK in Pixels is not the genuine article but a weird alien recreation of his sprite, but I don't think it's an useful distinction here. Fact is, the use of the Donke Kong intellectual property is more relevant to the plot of Pixels than is Donkey Kong's appearance in the Wii Punch-Out, which squarely meets the current description of what a guest appearance is.

Of course, according to the standards set by Coverage, only the movie itself would get a page and nothing else from it. I don't feel particularly strongly about the outcome either way but I felt this needed to be discussed.

Proposer: Deadline: September 12, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Yes, the movie where Adam Sandler Actually Josh Gad procreates with Q-Bert warrants a wiki page

 * 1) - For the reasons provided above and (mostly) for the sheer absurdity of it.
 * 2) - I have to agree with Glowsquid here. It would be sensible to make an article for Pixels.
 * 3) Personally, I feel Adam Sandler-related content is something that this wiki has been lacking for a long time and I welcome its coverage. Per all.
 * 4) I feel that Donkey Kong is featured prominently enough to have coverage similar to our coverage of The Wizard.
 * 5) Why is it that films centered around video gaming competitions do poorly while films about video game franchises, on the other hand, do much better? Per all.
 * 6) - It wasn't Adam Sandler, it was, jsyk. But yes, per all.
 * 7) Josh Gad is da Devil! Per all, I've been curious about this myself.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) it's spelled "Q*bert", squiddo
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Unfortunately. Per all.
 * 13) That movie actually had one half-decent action scene with centipedes in the middle fulfills its role as a guest appearance, so per all.

Comments
This proposal is sure to make someone abnormally angry, like an alligator with an enlarged medulla oblongata all them teeth but no toothbrush. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2018 (EDT)

I love the proposal options omg we need more of that. 13:29, 5 September 2018 (EDT)

It would be better if we waited until  also releases, since the film's development team was planning on giving Mario a much larger role than in the. Since the focus on Mario seems roughly equal for both films, maybe...propose both at the same time? Just a thought. 13:33, 5 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Two unrelated medias, two proposals! --Glowsquid (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2018 (EDT)

So, to clarify, we would get a Pixels page, but we would only cover the Donkey Kong information aside from a intro about the movie? 13:33, 5 September 2018 (EDT)
 * We might have to take some queues from the article on The Wizard. 13:35, 5 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Basically yeah. Do a very basic overview of what the film is and what it's about, then talk about what Dong does in it. --Glowsquid (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2018 (EDT)

How about the short film it's based off of? Would it get a section? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2018 (EDT)
 * I don't think it warrants any more coverage than mentioning its existence and status as source material on the movie's page since afaict nothing was licensed. --Glowsquid (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2018 (EDT)

"You can split hairs and say the DK in Pixels is not the genuine article but a weird alien recreation of his sprite, but I don't think it's an useful distinction here."

I guess this is another topic, but does this mean the DK from Pixels gets its own page ala Super Mario Bros. film Mario gets his own page??? 20:01, 9 September 2018 (EDT)
 * "Of course, according to the standards set by Coverage, only the movie itself would get a page and nothing else from it. I don't feel particularly strongly about the outcome either way but I felt this needed to be discussed."
 * It's actually a completely relevant question to ask as Mariowiki:Coverage additionally states " However, if a subject is unique to the game while also being clearly derived from the Mario franchise, they can receive individual articles."

And it's a goond one! Additional discussion would be needed, but my gut reaction is... I s'pose so? --Glowsquid (talk) 08:33, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Merge Super Mario Land series, Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Run into "Super Mario" series
I know we had this same sort of proposal three years ago, but I feel it's time we bring it back into light, considering there's two more games to consider now, and also just that I feel this warrants a second discussion. To put things simple, as of late, Nintendo has acknowledged the two Super Mario Land titles as part of the main Super Mario series, including them in 30th anniversary material, and listing them alongside the other Super Mario titles on their main website. The distinction between "main games" and "additional games" is a pretty blurred one, if not completely non-existent! But to keep things safe, I'll go ahead and list a few counter-arguments, clarifications, and other additional material I believe may be necessary:


 * Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land would not be counted. It is not listed as part of the Super Mario series in any official Nintendo material, and is more akin to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island than anything else.
 * Not every game with "Super Mario" in the title will be included. - Again, only things counted by Nintendo in 30th anniversary material and things listed on the official website. No Super Mario Kart, Super Mario Party, and ostensibly Super Paper Mario here.
 * The argument against Super Mario Land & 6 Golden Coins - These titles currently aren't included, as they were not included in the 25th Anniversary material. However, I feel we should consider the 25th Anniversary material in this case the same way we consider Jumpman the Carpenter and Princess Toadstool: something that may have been true at one point, but ultimately is disproven by more recent material. Generally when it comes to a case like this, you take more recent material, especially when it comes from an official source.
 * The argument against Run and Maker - These two titles are currently not included on the account that they diverge heavily from traditional Super Mario gameplay. While this is true, we still should probably take note of official word from Nintendo, by including them alongside the rest. And really, when you get down to it, Super Mario Maker is focused on platforming when it isn't focused on stage-designing, and Super Mario Run could just be considered a traditional Mario game adapted to a new platform, much like how Super Mario 64 adapted the series to 3D.

Relevant pages are Super Mario (series), Super Mario Land (series), Super Mario Land, Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run. While this does affect dozens more, these are the most significant titles.

Proposer: Deadline: September 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Merge all four titles into the Super Mario series

 * 1) Per everything I said above.
 * 2) PLEASE. And regarding the "Land games not being in the 25th anniversary book" thing, that's obviously simply because there's no reason to interview Miyamoto, Tezuka, and Kondo about a game they didn't create.
 * 3) It always looked odd that Super Mario 3D Land was part of the Super Mario series but not the other portable game it was named after. Per Nintendo.
 * 4) Changing vote, per LinkTheLefty's comment below. Keep in mind that the Super Mario Land games may still need their own section, given that they appear in the 30th anniversary material but not the 25th anniversary book, and were both developed by a different team anyways. It should also be noted that there were even more opposing arguments in the previous two proposals that may still need to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, per all.
 * 5) I say we merge these titles with the Super Mario series. I've been reading through various articles, and I've noticed many inconsistencies. For example, Sledge Bro's article lists its Super Mario Maker / Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS appearance as a part of the Super Mario series, while Bowser's article DOES NOT list the aforementioned game as one of his Super Mario series appearances. I'm fine if both Super Mario Land games still have a series article of their own, but seriously, we should include said games, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run as part of the Super Mario series, because they aren't all that different from the "main" games. It even says so here. Per all.
 * 6) Per all. Differences in gameplay aren't a substantial reason to discredit a game from the main series. Super Mario Bros. 2 plays very differently from any other main series game, yet it's clearly a main series game. I say, these are too.
 * 7) I do feel this makes sense to do if Nintendo includes the games with the Super Mario series. Something like this is definitely necessary, as I have seen inconsistencies on articles about where these games are listed (sometimes Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run are listed with the Super Mario games, and sometimes they are alone).
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.

Keep the titles separate, as is now

 * 1) Per the opposes for the last two times this was proposed. Yes, I know Doc von Schmeltwick already tried to clear up the confusion as to why the Super Mario Land titles weren't included in the 25th anniversary book, but that isn't the reason I'm opposing. According to Walkazo's respective votes in this proposal and this proposal, the 30th anniversary stuff leaves out remakes and Lost Levels, while the 25th anniversary book doesn't. Also, is there any official confirmation at all that Super Mario Run is part of the main series? Unless both of these issues are resolved, I'm afraid I'll have to oppose any changes to the series pages.

Comments
To clarify my oppose vote a bit, I'm not opposed to including Super Mario Run in the series page, I just want to know if Nintendo has officially considered that game as part of the Super Mario series. Of course we can't rely on 30th anniversary info since that was about a year before Super Mario Run, but is there anything else? Go ahead, I'll wait. 09:02, 10 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The Japanese and English official websites include Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run as part of the main Super Mario series, as well as the two Super Mario Land games; admittedly, The Lost Levels was removed from the latter, but given its release history in the west and how it's billed as a "special version of the original" instead of a numbered sequel, it's understandable (also note that Super Mario USA is listed in Japanese release order on the original site, which pushes technical release chronology). As for remakes like Super Mario 64 DS, I'm unsure how that was ever a factor when we already list them in subsections. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:11, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

"and is more akin to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island than anything else." But isn't that also regarded by Nintendo as part of the Super Mario series? 20:47, 10 September 2018 (EDT)
 * No, that's why it's not listed on Mario Portal. Miyamoto said years ago he considers it part of the "core series of platformers," but that's a bit vague. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Determine whether reused artwork is a reference
Right now, whenever a piece of character artwork is remade/reused, it's considered a reference in the references section. But I say... why? It's a practice Nintendo's been doing for years, and the poses are always very generic. I don't think anyone at Nintendo says "Hey, remember that Mario Party game from 10 years ago? Let's reference it by reusing Bowser's character artwork!".

Because there's several variables, there are a few different options for this proposal:
 * Only reused artwork is a reference: Only instances where the exact artwork is reused will be considered a reference.
 * Only remastered artwork is a reference: Only instances where the artwork is remade will be considered a reference. For example, Wario's artwork from Mario Party: The Top 100 would be a Super Mario 64 DS reference because it's a remake of his older artwork.
 * Neither are a reference: Self-explanatory, all mentions of reused artwork in any form would be removed from the references sections.
 * Both are a reference: Nothing happens, both continue to be considered a reference.
 * Determine on a case-by-case basis: Artwork reuse being a reference would be determined on a case-by-case basis, similar to other elements of games like reused enemies.

Proposer: Deadline: August 30, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 6, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 13, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 20, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Only reused artwork is a reference

 * 1) - Per my original thoughts.
 * 2) - Per proposal.

Only remastered artwork is a reference

 * 1) Remaking an artwork is at the very least giving a specific nod to an element of a game, if not the entire game. Artwork is an element as much as sprites or quotes.
 * 2) Per Baby Luigi's comment. At this point, artwork from the Mario Party games has been reused so many times, it's hardly a reference anymore.

Neither are a reference

 * 1) Per proposal + my comment on the previous take.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) - Per all
 * 7) Don't see why they are a reference
 * 8) - This is my second option, seeing that the first option is automatically failing.
 * 9) - Per all. Maybe with remastered art it should be noted that it's a remaster, but either way I wouldn't call it a "reference".

Determine on a case-by-case basis

 * 1) This proposal is clearly better off as a discussion, but I'm going for this option since it's at least an opener for further discussion.
 * 2) Gonna vote here as well since this option now exists, and I see the merits of both.
 * 3) The context surrounding the artwork is far more important into establishing whenever it's a reference. In many contexts, however, especially related to more general artwork, which are later to be used as stock work, this is not true. For instance, it's silly to say that the artwork that appears in New Super Mario Bros. is a reference to Mario Party 6 since it appeared in Mario Party 6 first (if not earlier). If there is important information about how the artwork is reused, especially if it's reused prominently the point it's associated, it should be instead be noted in the file page as well as be categorized in the file page as artwork for those multiple games (e.g. that Mario artwork should be considered Mario Party 6 AND New Super Mario Bros. art). But there are other instances of art where I'd argue that it would be a reference; Mario & Luigi and Mario Strikers art, for instance, are highly stylized so their appearances in other games are references. Even iconic art like the Super Mario Bros. pictures should probably be recognized as a reference if it appears anywhere else. Another reason context matters much is if hypothetically, Super Mario 64-era Mario artwork gets reused. Back then, it's used in more general promotional advertising so its being reused in similar games would've not really been a reference. But it's no longer getting used, so if one sees it in a newer game, would it be a reference? I'd really say if it's more case-by-case especially if artwork start receiving diminished use in the future as rendering technology continues improving and designs continue evolving. So far, a lot of the GCN/Wii/Wii U era art is getting used, even after being re-rendered, but there might be an interesting argument in the future once the that era art stops becoming stock.
 * 4) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 5) Per all
 * 6) Some are references, perhaps, like Bazooka Mario's point about unique art styles, but some are stock artwork. Usually the latter. Really, the best course of action is not to make a solid rule and decide for each image as the issue comes about.
 * 7) - Second choice.
 * 8) - Per Bazooka Mario, and the discussion in the comments. It's like how bringing back a Goomba wouldn't count as a Super Mario Bros. reference, whereas bringing back something like a Hooligon might count as a Super Paper Mario reference.
 * 9) - Per Bazookario.

Comments
I think this should be applied in the same mannerism as we already handle references for policy: referencing Super Mario Bros. because Goombas appear in the game is ludicrous, so saying that Baby Luigi's artwork in promotional material are all references to Mario Kart Wii (which in turn is a reference to Luigi's pose from DDR: Mario Mix) is a bit ludicrous. So in that way, I accept remaking/remastering artwork only when it reuses artwork from that specific game instance, such as Bowser's very specialized, dancing artwork that isn't reused all that often to begin with being reused for Mario Sports Superstars. Artwork such as Waluigi's crouching pose, Yoshi's running pose from Mario Party 8, ie any artwork that gets reused very often, should not be labeled as references. 13:25, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yes, by then it's stock artwork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:27, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I'll also add that some artwork gets edited without it being necessarily a reference: Bowser Jr.'s artwork in Mario Party: Star Rush is an edited version of his artwork in Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, but that doesn't mean that they wanted to reference said game. Actually, I frankly don't think that in most cases the artwork which is reused or remastered is a reference to the original game for which the original artwork was made. I'd rather talk about sourcing in these cases, but we don't have any way to make this distinction at the moment.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:40, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

I say that I don't like any of the options in this proposal. My conclusion is this: some reused artworks are references, many of them aren't, but that doesn't mean no reused artworks aren't references to past games. 16:57, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Agreed; it's better if this was case-by-case, rather than catch-all. 17:01, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I've added a fifth option, since this seems to be a popular opinion. -- 17:28, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * The problem I have with it is that it's pretty vague. 17:42, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it is pretty vague. I like the idea, but since it's too vague, I don't think I can vote for it. For me, most should follow under what I voted for. 17:38, 25 August 2018 (EDT)