User talk:LinkTheLefty/Archive 1

Nice edits.

Reminder
We understand where you're coming from, but the main purpose is to combine existing information about the gals (specifically Princess Peach, Princess Daisy, and their baby counterparts). So the existing info that was there prior to your edits do count, and should stay there. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 21:36, 17 November 2009 (EST)
 * Well Merit, I dont disagree with you, but you should try to use the Undo button instead of the Rollback one to explain why was it reverted, otehrwise, things like this happen -- 21:40, 17 November 2009 (EST)
 * Isn't this reminder a little rash? ôo - 21:42, 17 November 2009 (EST)
 * Per Tucayo and Edofenrir. This user had no way of knowing where you are coming from if you didn't have an edit summary, and you should have told them why first before giving them an official reminder.
 * Actually I did when he tried to "restore" his edits that I reverted in regards to the Baby Peach article. When he did the same thing again on the Baby Daisy article, that's where the "reminder" came in. This doesn't call for a warning... yet. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 21:49, 17 November 2009 (EST)
 * Of course it's your decision how you react at the end and I have to respect that, but I have to say I don't agree with the reminder. You both had your opinions and you both reverted each others edits. I can only see two persons engaging in an edit war. Sorry for the blunt speak. - 21:58, 17 November 2009 (EST)

On Baby Mario, Baby Luigi and Baby DK's page it says their full names are Mario, Luigi and Donkey Kong. So the same should be done to Baby Peach and Baby Daisy's.

Canon
This is the Wiki's policy on Canon http://www.mariowiki.com/Canon

Okay, I see where you're coming from. The problem is that everything official and licensed cannot possibly coexist as absolute canon. While the Wiki may say it virtually considers everything canon, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show, the Super Mario Bros. film, and Yoshi's Island, for example, all clearly show different origins to the Mario Bros. I believe the Wiki makes an exception to the film, as it is clearly a widely different universe. I notice that film-exclusive elements are usually kept separate from everything else. Though even if you can tie the cartoon and the games together, this still unfortunately involves some unofficial fanon (the most common theory being that the brothers where inexplicably either orphaned or moved away). To a certain extent, the wiki still keeps some amount of distance between alternate media.

But that's besides the point. I don't really wish to go against Mario Wiki's policy - by saying every licensed bit of information is every bit as canon as the last, they are maintaining a needed, unbiased point of view. I'm not saying that Princess Toadstool is a non-canon name, however. I'm simply saying that Nintendo has yet to state "Peach Toadstool" is her full name. The only thing the fans go by is the way the letter is presented in Super Mario 64, but that can be interpreted a number of ways. After all, we do not see the comma after Toadstool. There's also a strange pause after the voice reads Toadstool. Some people might hear Princess Toadstool, Peach - others might hear Princess "Toadstool" Peach or even Princess Toadstool Peach. See what I mean?

The point is, I'm not trying to denounce Toadstool as her name. It's an unremovable part of her history. I'm just saying that there is no other official word on what was said or how it should be read. As far as I can tell, no other official sources tried to explain the line reading, and she was often called Princess Toadstool in supplemental materials even around that time until the next game. That's why I consider Peach Toadstool, as a full name, to be rather dubious - not necessarily invalid, but not altogether official. LinkTheLefty 01:39, 4 May 2011 (EDT)
 * Also (and while this is very old news) Koopa is actually Bowser's last name it's stated in the manual on pg 19 "This is a strange looking sunken ship. Haven't you seen it somewhere else before? That's right, in Super Mario Bros. 3, Koopa and his kids used flying ship to make life tough for Mario. I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser is lurking somewhere nearby. He's also called both Bowser and King Koopa in the Super Mario Bros. Deluxe manual. Oh and Princess Peach while never called Princess Peach Toadstool is called both Peach and Princess Toadstool in the manual for Super Mario 64. This is from Page 5 Princess Toadstool and Toad are missing, too. and then this is the only time shes called Peach in it on page 4 "Wow, an invitation from Peach! I'll head out right away. I hope she can wait for me!"


 * Ah, this is kind of a relic to tell the truth! xD I actually did find an official website (I think it was NoE) since then that listed the full name as Peach Toadstool, but I don't believe it's still around. As for Bowser Koopa, I think for the most part it's implicit but that Ignorance is Bliss song did use it so that shows Nintendo does at least recognize it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Yeah the Bowser one is kind of odd but I do think it heavily implies that Koopa is the last name given the context and since they didn't use Bowser (also they used Koopa instead of Bowser on page 18: There are dinosaurs called Renzor waiting in all four fortresses. No doubt they have been put under a terrible spell by Koopa. But it is pretty strange how they switch back on forth between Bowser and Koopa.

BS Super Mario USA is Super Mario Bros. 2's direct sequel
Look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvJrEIlFujI --Prince Ludwig 12:22, 20 February 2012 (EST)

Alright. I looked at this (it's in the gallery), and...it's entirely insufficient. You can't just look at the illustrations and assume what was narrated. This is pretty much just baseless conjecture based on limited western observation, and until the full thing has been properly rediscovered the pseudo-sequel explanation should be considered unofficial. All other indications suggest that it wasn't something Nintendo particularly took too seriously, just a fun competition along the lines of the International Donkey Kong Country and Star Fox Competitions, but with Japanese radio voices providing a commentary. Let me refer you to http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=13502.0 - these are people who are willing to take anything uncovered and properly document the vocal speech that came with it. Even still, the only piece of dialog considered major that they uncovered was the ending, and that is lackluster and doesn't tell us anything we didn't know from the original game (other than the promise of Birdo recurring in the series, which was a given at that point). If they find something supporting the wiki or you can give more conclusive evidence that BS Super Mario USA is meant to take place after Super Mario Bros. 2 and is more than a variation of said game, of course every right should be taken to revoke these edits. Until then, this line of thought is fan-constructed and shouldn't have a place on the wiki. LinkTheLefty 13:49, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * None of the players like you except others such as myself have found out that the game itself actually reveals to take place right after the events of Super Mario Bros. 2. So, yes it is the direct sequel, even though it was sometime implied to be the semi-remake or simply a remake by Nintendo, but it never weren't. Even if it was sometime claimed to be remake, the game actually shown to be the direct follow-up to Super Mario Bros. 2. You can't just call it a mere competition or special remake, if it were, the game itself wouldn't show the game was after Super Mario Bros. 2 but just a spin-off (but if it was a spin-off, it's 100% the follow-up of Super Mario Bros. 2) And I checked the wiki, none of the articles told that Wart was exiled to Koholint Island until you came over since Link's Awakening seems to take place several years after being defeated by Mario the second time.


 * The introduction have already shown the ending of Super Mario Bros. 2 and the beginning of BS Super Mario USA, Wart and the 8-bits have been defeated, Mario got his Plumber's Laments, Wart and the 8-bits returned for revenge and still them, despite the voice actors said at the end (we don't know what they said at the beginning). If you play the game in the computer, you can't even hear a voice.--Prince Ludwig 14:18, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * Personally, even calling the statues "Plumber's Laments" is tenuous, given that it was a personal title for a fake work of art. The whole "Wart was banished to another dream world" is - according to the translators - 100% fake. The only ending is that Subcon vanishes without so much as a mention of Wart. Whoever put that there either tried to connect it to Link's Awakening or had a faulty source. As for the "players would know it takes place afterward" - again, for one thing you're basing that on loading illustrations whose spoken words - if any - are largely lost (if you can find videos of the raw Japanese broadcast, post them and we'll get it verified). Second, I'd like to see all the other people who've played BS Super Mario USA and state that it's common knowledge to be a sequel; the person translating could not find the original opening and is at a loss. Third, it is only a fan-theory to suggest that Link's Awakening takes place after it since that game itself takes place in an entirely separate universe (one of three known continuities) and mostly made references and cameos of other Nintendo properties to reflect the relatively lighthearted tone of the dream world. Fourth, I don't believe Nintendo has really acknowledged the existence of BS Super Mario USA, so we don't technically know what they consider it.


 * Either way, this is all a mass assumption since we no longer have the spoken words at hand. That was a part of the broadcast and not the ROM - film of the broadcast itself is obscure. For all we know, there COULD be a different story, and the statues COULD be a (if silly) plot point, but we will not officially know until the video in original form has been found and a translation is provided. Again, the general dialog that was translated doesn't seem to hint at a second adventure thus far, nor do we know if the illustrations are supposed to be storyline or if they were a unique loading screen that often came with the Satellaview. At this point in time, there's nothing strong enough to go on. LinkTheLefty 14:36, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * Isn't this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5wetcPTBQM#t=4m0s the opening speaking part? I checked a version of the actual first episode on Nico Nico Douga too, and the narration is the same - the episode 4 one is missing one line, but it's not important to the plot. I'm still working on translating it (I'm still very beginner at Japanese), but so far, it does sound like a sequel. It talks about how Mario & Co. beat Wart but thought it was a dream, and it then explains that Wart & Co. escaped to another dream. Wart stirs up trouble and the King has to call Mario & Co. and they become active again (or as the narration says, mata mata). They find the King and his company gone, and while I still need to work on this part, I think it said Wart and Co. were also underground plotting, or something along those lines, but I'm not sure if Wart kidnapped the King or if he ran off on his own accord: hopefully when I finish translating a couple mystery words, it'll be clearer. As far as I can tell, it doesn't mention or name the statues, but as I said before, I'm still working on it, so you never know. As for "the separate dream" Wart went to, while it's doesn't name Link's Awakening explicitly, I don't think it's an unreasonable inference at all: he looks the same and has the same (Japanese) name, after all. - 17:38, 21 February 2012 (EST)
 * That would indeed appear to be the legit opening. Neat to see it was found on YouTube after all. Seems that some of what was on the wiki may be accurate, though a little still seemed a bit presumptuous before and I'm glad that it's getting cleared up. I'll also check it out later and see if I can pick up on anything else (though I'm pretty basic with my knowledge). If Nintendo indeed marketed it as a pseudo-sequel, then I wonder how they handled BS Super Mario Collection (I think info on that one is doubly obscure). LinkTheLefty 19:53, 21 February 2012 (EST)

Kong Family
According to Donkey Kong Country Returns Cranky Kong is Donkey Kong's grandfather because that's the latest official source (and I believe most sources call Cranky Kong DK's grandfather) the wiki accepts Cranky Kong's role as Donkey Kong's grandfather. Also I don't think we care about the opinions of fans and I think Rare's opinion has been rendered invalid since they no longer make the games.
 * Also i'd like to point out that the manual of Donkey Kong Country actually calls Cranky Kong DK's granddad here's the quote Actually that's incorrect the manual refers to Cranky Kong as DK's grandfather here's the quote "He groggily rolled over to see the familiar wrinkled, white bearded, grouchy face of his old granddad
 * Perhaps. The link I referred to makes a good point if you read it, though - basically, Rare has always made conflicting mistakes during the Donkey Kong Country trilogy the entire time and the original Cranky Kong creators went on record during Donkey Kong 64... However, it was Rare's last Kong game, and other teams that touched on the relationship merely looked at the SNES games since they were an easier source, so they perpetuate the mistake. There's also the possibility that Retro's Cranky Kong is Rare's Donkey Kong - or, at least, one of Retro's quotes suggested that, but there's another Cranky line that contradicts that (possibly to keep in spirit of his senility). So this is a case of Rare representatives versus Nintendo representatives - whether you believe that Cranky's original character designers are right in saying to ignore grandfather sources, or that Nintendo's word overrides those of their final intent (these people incidentally tend to dismiss Rare Scribes, ignoring that their style of writing is totally in line with the universe they created). I'm not saying that Nintendo is wrong - I think the case is more up to the reader to decide, and I think it'd be better for the wiki if we presented both sides of the argument.
 * At any rate, if we're going with the latest word for this wiki, then at the very least the Diddy Kong relation is an outdated source; Nintendo has since elaborated that the old nephew statement is akin to "nephew wannabe". And I agree - that sudden blood relation never made sense in any context. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:54, 1 August 2012 (EDT)
 * It does make a good read filled with confusing and conflicting sources (also the the manual of Donkey Kong Country also refers to Cranky Kong as being Donkey Kongs dad on a later page) but what i'm saying is that most sources (especially in game) call Cranky Kong DK's grandfather so it makes the most sense the call him DK's granddad.
 * Alright. Though I do think Cranky's Identity Confusion section should be expanded to include some of this conflicting information, since as it stands now it essentially boils down to "Donkey Kong 64 vs. everything else" (which isn't quite the case). And I still think Diddy Kong should be listed as nephew wannabe, since I believe only one source stated nephew. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:21, 1 August 2012 (EDT)
 * That seems like a good idea.
 * I have one complaint (which I would fix my self but i'm a god awful writer) and it's that you seem to lean on the theory that Cranky Kong is DK's father when most sources say he's DK's grandfather. You also forgot to mention that the latest source says that Cranky Kong is DK's grandfather. sorry didn't see that part initially.
 * Sorry if it seemed biased, I've just updated the article with that in mind. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2012 (EDT)
 * It's fine more then likely it was mostly me just misunderstanding it (since it's needlessly complicated) also I noticed you didn't put down that the cartoons called Donkey Kong cranky's son is that because you don't think that's canon or were you just not aware of that?
 * Ah, I honestly don't have too many memories attached to that show, so that came as a mild surprise. At any rate I personally wouldn't have considered it canon to the game universe so I probably wouldn't have remembered it, but from what I understand this Wiki doesn't try to categorize canon. And it's still definitely an official source on some level, so that counts. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2012 (EDT)

Fox Luigi
It looks like you meant to vote but you but your vote (?) in the comments section. Also if you did mean to leave a comment the number sign wasn't needed.


 * Ah, I'll change it... I didn't mean to vote for the proposed names, though. (I'll explain at the Talk Page.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:42, 15 August 2012 (EDT)

Koopaling mannerisms in the SMB3 manual.
Hi.

You mentioned that there were unique quirks in the SMB3 manual (the Japanese one, I think) regarding the Koopalings. Can you add in what the quirks were regarding Larry, Morton Jr., Wendy, and Lemmy? They were the only ones that weren't added in yet. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2012 (EDT)


 * I think each of the Koopalings had minor individual speech mannerisms in the original manual that was somewhat (but not entirely) lost when it was translated. Working off of memory, it consisted of Iggy's kooky laughter (I distinctly remember this), Ludwig's politeness, Lemmy's childishness, Roy's cool-headedness(?), etc. I forget what Larry and Morton's quirks were, but I faintly recall Wendy having some sense of entitlement (but I might be wrong). If you want, I can provide rough transcripts sometime soon. Actually, can the SMB3 Japanese manual even be found easily on the Internet? If not, I might just scan it in (or at least the Koopalings / storyline portions) if I'm able. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:55, 16 August 2012 (EDT)


 * I can't seem to find them on Bing, and if they were easily accessible, they'd usually be on the front page. Plus, with college starting up again, this time at a new campus, I can't devote much time to searching for them anyways, and I'm staying away from Google due to its current policies and business practices. So yeah, try scanning them in when you have time. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 08:39, 22 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Sure, I'll make a note to do it soon. When I do, I'll supply them at the Super Mario Bros. 3 Talk Page. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:30, 22 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Hey does the Japanese Manual for SMB3 refer to the Koopalings as Bowser's Children?
 * I actually don't remember that specific detail! Knowing that Miyamoto just let the cat out of the bag and now there are discussions on whether or not this is a retcon or something that was always intended, I realize I should have scanned the manual earlier but I didn't get around to it in time. Hindsight is 20/20... I'll look at it again and definitely have it out for you all to see when I can. Sorry! LinkTheLefty (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I will say this, though... That group shot of the Koopalings is technically implicit and does not directly state that. Kokuppa is their collective group name that can either mean Child Koopa or Little Koopa. Miyamoto apparently designed them to be "Mini-Bowsers" that replace the fights of the first game and gradually work the player up to the real Bowser, so some people who leave it at that simply believe the translators simply took it the wrong way. There is evidence to the contrary according to Japanese Wiki, however, as it does cite the Super Mario Bros. 3 manual as the primary source of the idea of them being Bowser's kids. There is a link to the Virtual Console digital storyline in which Larry refers to Bowser as オヤジ (Oyaji). Because of the way Japanese works, this could either state a familial relationship (so he's calling him "Father") or at least imply a close one (ie. Larry thinking of him as a role model, if you prefer to look at it that way). It also cites a speech bubble for Bowser (which I don't recall him having, but I'll take it) in which he refers to the Koopalings as 俺様の息子達 (ore-sama no kodomo-tachi). He's boasting about the children while crudely putting himself on a pedestal here - probably something like "these children of my esteemed self". I think, in this context, it's probably more natural to assume he's referring to them as his own blood children and not simply Koopa children under his command.
 * The Japanese Wiki does not cite Super Mario World and beyond for their kinship, which I found curious. They go on to state that the Koopaling relationship was downplayed in the Super Mario Advance 4 manual, so I think they just got rid of the interactions altogether. No word on the Super Mario Advance 2 manual, which leads me to think this is strictly a phenomenon with their Super Mario Bros. 3 introduction. I don't believe they were ever directly said to be his children in storyline text or descriptions, so this seems to be based on how Larry and Bowser (and maybe the others, but I'm forgetting) speak in their text bubbles. The thing is, their wording can be taken two different ways - the localizers and Super Smash Bros. Melee take it to mean they are family, whereas Shigeru Miyamoto and the current creators take it to mean they are close but not necessarily related. It seems this has more to do with interpretation of the original text than Bowser Jr. "replacing" them.
 * To sum it up, it's never explicitly stated in Japanese from what I can tell, but it was heavily implied. For now, this is the best I can do...consider that a teaser, I guess. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:59, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Well, if you want a good example of a group of soldiers who look up to someone to the extent of calling themselves their "sons" despite not actually being related to them, you can always look towards the enemies of the Metal Gear Solid franchise, as FOXHOUND, Dead Cell, and the Cobra Unit referred to themselves as the Sons of Big Boss, the Sons of Liberty, and the Sons of The Boss, respectively, even though, Liquid Snake in FOXHOUND aside, none of the characters actually were related to them by blood. I wonder if they'd do something like that if the included both the Koopalings and brought back Snake for the next Super Smash Bros. game? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:42, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Hey i'm pretty sure that Japanese anime with the Koopalings (you know the one with Mario born in a peach) calls the Koopalings Bowser's children.
 * BTW, regarding the original topic, I managed to find a full set of the Famicom Super Mario Bros. 3 on ebay. However, I'll wait until October when enough of my funds have been replenished before I order it and scan the instruction manual images into my computer, and that also depends on the amount of work I have to do at College as well. BTW, what's your email address? I'm asking because I'm probably going to email the images to you. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 06:51, 18 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I'm not sure it's necessary... You don't have to purchase your own copy if you're eager to get some scans out earlier (although I do recommend it if you're collecting or for your own purposes; the Famicom version's power-down system makes for a noticeable difference in difficulty). I have vacation sometime in November, so I'll have time to go back and do it by then. I just didn't make it a priority because I didn't expect it would be in demand. Though if you do manage to acquire your own and it's not a hassle, you can always share the images on the wiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2012 (EDT)

Hotel Mario stuff+sourcing
In the history of Hotel Mario/Beta elements, you state that you're sure that the piggy bank and ghost cologne events can't be triggered ingame-mind elaborating on that? My memory might be playing tricks, but I remember reading that a youtuber managed to trigger the piggy bank cutscene, atleast.

Also, while I appreciate that you atleast put your references *somewhere* like you did on the Major Burrows history (most users don't even bother with that little detail, lol), it's still better to integrate sources and citations directly in the article. The process for doing that is explained here. --Glowsquid (talk) 11:20, 17 August 2012 (EDT)


 * I actually did play Hotel Mario up until Wendy's hotel, and I couldn't find a way to trigger the ghost cologne in Luwdwig's hotel. I know that when the piggy bank video was uploaded on YouTube, it was listed as unused content. All the reviews / playthroughs I've seen also couldn't find a way to unlock either of them, and the optional Warp Pipe and Bowser's Sourpuss Bread cutscenes were documented for a while and should have been seen in about the same way pretty easily. The game has been hacked and played apart, so I don't doubt that those parts were scrapped. While Hotel Mario hasn't been examined as much as the other Mario games, I'd be surprised if one person was able to find those rare videos in-game after so long... Also, I'll keep the sourcing in mind. Thanks LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Oh, that's sound. Thogh now I wonder where the fan cutscene falls in. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:18, 19 August 2012 (EDT)
 * I actually completely forgot about that! I also never came across that one, but when I looked it up on YouTube the uploader claims that certain versions of the video were recorded off a real console. So this is even more confusing. I could probably go back and play through it again sometime while double-checking the doors of the Lemmy, Ludwig and Wendy hotels, but my CD-i broke and I'd have to resort to an emulator. In addition, I found a series of videos by KiiroBomber / LuigiBlood which are apparently unused victory themes for each individual hotel. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:50, 20 August 2012 (EDT)

Walkazo's meaning.
I know that. However, I didn't want to risk erasing future edits by doing a direct undo of everything done so far, which is sometomes what happens when you try to undo an old edit, that's why I decided to just undo the most recent edit. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 06:55, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Ah, ok. That's understandable. A lot of people still hit the revert button, but I didn't do that. He still wanted the task force description removed and the translation talk toned down. That's why I removed the description of Larry being more fanatical than the other Koopalings - until we get the other ones translated, that may be getting ahead of ourselves in the article. I've pointed out more direct evidence on the Koopaling Talk Page that they were supposed to be his kids at least before the game released, so it's probably best to present the quotes neutrally and without bias with one interpretation over the other... That's also why I decided to move the Japanese quotes from the Family Relationship section and into footnotes, since it should be incomplete until I get to the other characters; until I get the whole thing scanned in, we may be only getting a small piece of the big picture. I am 99% sure that the manual didn't state this (particularly the story-related text) - the Virtual Console Super Mario Bros. 3 pages and the Japanese Wiki supports this - but the wiki probably shouldn't be run on someone's memory, especially since I forgot about Larry's "Oyaji" (unless it was added for some reason to the Virtual Console digital storyline) and completely glanced over Bowser's line. I do regret not getting my manual scanned in on time - it's a bit of a wait, but I'll have it online in a month or two. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:34, 17 September 2012 (EDT)