Talk:Koopalings

Anybody think we could use this image somewhere, its assembled sprites of what the Koopalings would have looked like in Super Princess Peach. -- Sir Grodus
 * Would have looked like. It's not canon because it's custom sprites. 16:12, 21 January 2007 (EST)

Klaus Kratchet
 * That is NOT custom. It was found in the ROM.

Heirs?
How are they ALL bloody heirs? I'm fairly sure that the eldest would be the heir. That is, Ludwig. MamaWaluigi 16:28, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

Who says any of them are heirs? Bowser is still in command. 16:36, 20 August 2007 (EDT)
 * The bloody page does. MamaWaluigi 13:59, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
 * Mind your language, cursing is monitored on the wiki. - 14:01, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
 * But that wasn't a curse. And what is wrong with cursing? Even 9-year olds do it. Although, it is an outburst of over-emotion, it's not that bad. MamaWaluigi 19:24, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

I agree with MamaWaluigi, Ludwig should be next in line, however if something should happen to both Bowser and Ludwig, I think the second oldest should be next in line. (This, of course, being that "King" Ludwig having no koopalings himself).Shadow Master 15:28, 28 May 2010 (EDT)

TV Show Names
When they're not named Von Koopa and Koopa Jr. in TAoSMB3, why do their pages say so? - 14:41, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

I changed the Ludwig article around; Big Mouth only had Jr. in his name in DVD features, which the article states. -- Sir Grodus

For both names and ages, would the show be considered as canon as the games? I mean, Nintendo had no connection as far as I know, and plenty of things happened that seem doubtful for game canon. PPF
 * See here. In short: There is no official canon in the Mario series. 17:48, 24 August 2009 (EDT)

That was so the creators wouldn't have to pay extra for copyright.

Kinda Pointless...
I don't really see the point in having this article if we already have ones on the individual Koopalings, seems redundant; anyone else agree? -- Sir Grodus

Well, I dunno. The Koopalings page has more info on the koopalings as a group, and the other ones have different info based on the individual koopaling, so in that case, all the articles including this one is valuable to the Wiki. --The Game Prince

Bowser Jr.
He is NOT a Koopaling, they scrapped the Koopalings for him, they never appeared in a real game since Bowser Jr. popped up.
 * The Koopalings have since been used to describe all of Bowser's children, and Bowser Jr. is one of his children.
 * Bowser Jr. was never actually called a "Koopaling", and the originals where always called the "Koopalings", after Bowser Jr. appeared it seems they retconed it so that the Koopalings never existed, and that Bowser only had one kid. So it wouldn't be "Koopalings" and he would not be a "Koopaling".
 * Fine, keep him off the page.
 * Ehm, the Koopalings did appear in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, after Bowser Jr.'s appearance in Super Mario Sunshine. - 03:39, 29 September 2007 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't say the Koopalings have been retconned out of existance, since there's still the ocassional referrence to them, like in Super Paper Mario, or the unused sprites in Super Princess Peach. Funny how they're referrenced in games where Bowser Jr. never appears. It's like there's two Mario Universes or sommething (JK). I know that Iggy (or was it Larry) made a brief cameo at the start of Super Mario Sunshine when FLUDD scans Mario, but that just screws things around even more. -- Booster
 * The Sunshine appearance of Iggy was only to show an image of Super Mario World. It has no value when discussing whether Bowser Jr. is a Koopaling or not. -  05:54, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

Is it possible Bowser Jr is all the Koopalings combined into one?--Bob-omb Boris 06:14, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

Now that Bowser Jr. has been confirmed to appear in NSMB Wii along with the other Koopalings, is he or is he not on now? Luigifan95 22:52, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
 * He is not, until he officially gets called one. - 22:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

I'd say he's not, since they make a point of keeping him separate from the others in NSMB Wii, see where he jumps on top of the cake and they beside it. He seems like a superior to them. PPF

I heard someone say that in the official guide for NSMBW say that Bowser Jr. is one of the Koopalings, and that they are all still kids, but i can't confirm that, if someone can please do so. Besides it doesn't make any sense if bowser jr. isn't one of them, Kooplaings (AKA Bowser Kids) it's just "Koopa Sibblings", as all of them have Bowser as father, it wouldn't make any sense separate them. --CookiePinguy 12:26, 14 November 2009 (EST)

The term "Koopaling" does not just refer to them being Bowser's children. This goes back to how the Japanese names are translated - in Super Mario Bros. 3, they were first known as the Kokuppa 7 Kyôdai (Seven Koopaling Siblings), and in New Super Mario Bros. Wii they are instead called the Kokuppa 7 Ninshû (Team of Seven Koopalings) and the Kokuppa no Teshi'ta (Subordinate Koopalings). The basic gist is that they work as a group; Bowser Jr. is not a Koopaling in this sense because he was either to young to join their ranks, or that he's heir to the thrown (or both). LinkTheLefty 11:30, 2 January 2011 (EST)

Nintendo
What happened to Nintendo,huh?They don't wanna put the Koopalings anymore? Also Bowser Jr. isn't a Koopaling 'cause he isn't referred as one only Bowser's child.

It's probably just easier to use one character than seven (or eight). -- Sir Grodus 15:24, 10 December 2007 (EST)

Agreed (and go to the forums). 21:28, 10 December 2007 (EST)

Merge
Should we merge all the Koopaling article with the Koopalings article?
 * No, unlike Ashley and Red, The Koopalings all have enough individual info (Different battle tactics, action in the DIC cartoon trilogy... ect.) to be worthy of their own articles.

Blitzwing

Bowletta
Was it ever stated that the Koopalings were actually fooled into thinking she was their father? They could've just been following her orders so they weren't punished, or they could've been hypnotized (which I think is the since they curiously didn't have any lines in the game). As for whether or not Junior's a Koopaling I just say he is 'cause it's easier to talk about Bowser's kids as "the Koopalings" as opposed to "The Koopalings and Bowser Jr."; still, Nintendo hasn't said he is one so I have no problem with listing him as somewhat seperate from the original Koopalings (as he is in the article at the moment), it seems like a sensible compromise between the two views. - Walkazo

We can probably just remove that stuff about Bowletta in the trivia completely, since we don't know the actual circumstances how they came to work for her and don't want to dwelve too far into speculation. -- Sir Grodus 17:02, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Personality and strength
I'm really confused with the Koopaling's abilities, and how they are in relation with their personality and strength.

- Larry seems to be a sportive guy, as it is seen in "Hotel Mario" and "M&L: Superstar Saga". So he may be a bundle of power, always wanting someone to play tennis (or another game) with him.

- Morton is big and a bit fat. So he may love eating (or may he even like Sumo-ringers?)

- Wendy seems only to think about her bracelets, rings and her makeup. She may be very greedy, wanting everything she has not (as her personality is described in the TV Show)

- Iggy may be the crazy inventor of the koopa family. He invents thinks, that may not always work correctly, but sometimes are really good (like the mechs he built in "Yoshi's Safari")

- Roy seems to be a stereotypical bully, thinking that he is the coolest and the strongest of all. He may just have fun with beating weaker ones (like he did with Iggy in the Comics)

- Lemmy likes jumping around on his ball, so he may be the family's clown. Despite of being the second oldest, he is the smallest, and the crybaby (he cries in "M&L: Superstar Saga", when he is hit)

- Ludwig finally, seems to be the most intelligent member of the family, not an inventor like Iggy, but a creative head, as he likes composing (what Shigeryu Miyamoto may have thought when he created him, so he gave him the hair of Ludwig van Beethoven)

And to have something to compare their strength, you could take "M&L: Superstar Saga". I don't know their exact values in HP and attack strength, but I think I have a row that could be right:

- Lemmy and Wendy may be the weakest, as they both seem to have lesser HP than every other Koopaling. So they make self-copies to hide their weakness, but this is no help for them (even not Wendy's time Bob-omb)

- Iggy, Morton and Larry don't seem to be very special in attack strength and HP, but this may only be because Iggy and Morton are the first of the Koopalings and Larry is the youngest.

- Ludwig and Roy may be the strongest ones, mith seemingly the most HP of the Koopalings and the most dangerous attacks (Lundig's shell spin and Roy's multiple shockwaves). By my thoughts, Ludwig' shell spin is the strongest attack of all Koopalings, but Roy is also very dangerous because of his many HP and his time Bob-omb. Ludwig van Koopa

A lot of that is just speculation though. Interesting, but not applicable to the article. FD09

I Have a Dream (Not That One)
Most of you can see I've been cleaning this article a lot lately. I just want everyone to know they won't even recognize it by the time I'm ready to nominate it to be featured. Look forward to a quality increase. FD09

I think it was you, who wrote that the birth order of the Koopalings is not confirmed at all, so I write it in this section of the talk:

When it is only confirmed that Larry is the youngest and Ludwig the oldest, not only the order they are fought in SMB3 could be their birth order, but the order they are fought in NSMBWii as well. I think their new order would be a bit more likely, as Morton is now the biggest (and maybe the second oldest), and Lemmy may now be one of the youngest Koopalings, as he is the smallest. Ludwig van Koopa

Hmm, I don't recall messing with much birth order info. HOWEVER. Regardless of what you might speculate towards, other than what is stated in the VIDEO GAMES, regardless of a koopalings size or appearance order does not matter unless STATED. No speculation allowed sorry. FD09

Personality and Such
Are all of the traits on their perosnalityes from just the video games? If not, when it says something like Ludwig is cruel, in needs to make an example of it that clarifies if it is a trait form the video game sor something else. Panchito

Full names
Now I am full aware that it don't say this, but shouldn't each of the Koopalings be Prince (or Princess in Wendy's case) like Prince Bowser Koopa Jr. They are the Koopa Kingdom's heirs, King Bowser's kids, makes since to me- Clarkmaster!
 * You have a good point, but those parts of their names are never mentioned in the video games or cartoons (as far as I know), so it can not go into the article.

Photos
Can someone explain why we cannot have photographs of each Koopaling?--ThatlovesIggy 15:37, 29 March 2010 (EDT)

I understand we have main articles for photos, but wouldn't it be better for the article to have photos there?--ThatlovesIggy 15:42, 29 March 2010 (EDT)


 * The sections of text are far too small to have an image near them. With a decent-sized image of each Koopaling by each section of text, the article would become cluttered. Because of this, the image at the top of the page will suffice.

Bowser Jr. is a Koopaling?
I sent an e-mail to Nintendo Italy and I asked if Bowser Jr. is a Koopaling. They responded at me with:

Dear Customer, we inform you that the Koopalings are 8 (Bowser Koopa Jr., Larry Koopa, Morton Koopa Jr., Wendy O. Koopa, Iggy Koopa, Roy Koopa, Lemmy Koopa and Ludwig von Koopa) and are all children of Bowser. Bowser Koopa Jr. is therefore also a Koopaling. We should change the page... --Mikiuz 08:35, 31 May 2010 (EDT)--
 * We'll see about that, I just sent an email for the amiricain nintendo.

Okay then, I got their answer, here it is:

Hello, Thank you for writing back to clarify that you are able to play the American releases of our games. That said, I'm afraid there isn't a direct answer to your question about Bowser Jr. Nintendo excels at making sure our fans can get back story information, character descriptions, and--most importantly--the information they require to complete the games that we publish. This can happen through our website (www.nintendo.com), Player's Guides, and Nintendo Power magazine. Having said that, many details about our games and the origins of the characters will remain mysteries, left to the active imagination of the player.

I guess we should just leave it then.

Mario is Missing
I REALLY need someone to clear this up specifically. From what I can gather Larry is the only one in the NES version, everyone but Larry, Morton, Wendy, and Lemmy appear in the SNES version, and then everyone but Lemmy and Morton appear in the PC version, BUT Morton and Lemmy are still mentioned in the game's story, and Lemmy is shown in official artwork despite not appearing in the game? Is there anything else I'm missing? UhHuhAlrightDaisy 21:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Last I checked, none of the Koopalings appeared as Bosses in the NES version, the only Boss was a Koopa Troopa posing as Bowser. I used to own the SNES version. The only Koopalings appearing in it, were in this order. Ludwig von Koopa, Iggy Koopa, and Roy Koopa. Although Lemmy appears in the PC version's artwork he doesn't make any formal appearance in game, the same is true for Morton as well, making them the only two Koopalings to not appear in ANY of the games. this link below features part 1 of a walkthrough for the PC version. Lemmy Koopa617

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzb57x74gls&feature=search
 * Ok the part about Larry NOT being in the NES version is news, but I covered everything else you said already. Thanks though. If anyone else knows anything more specific it's appreciated. UhHuhAlrightDaisy 03:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Koopalings Truly Bowser's Children?
So I've been thinking as to whether or not the Koopalings are truly Bowser's children. For starters, in royal family, the eldest is the heir to the throne and not the youngest, meaning that if the Koopalings are Bowser's children, then Ludwig Von Koopa would be the next Koopa King instead of Bowser Jr. It makes me wonder if "Bowser's seven children" is more of a symbolic title, as opposed to literal.

For example, in Christian mythology, angels are called the "Sons of God" yet Jesus Christ is God's only literal son, so do y'all see what I mean about Koopalings being Bowser's symbolic children?

It would explain things like why Bowser Jr. outranks Ludwig Von Koopa, and other things like Morton Koopa Jr. being a junior. As if these are younger Koopas of Bowser's Koopa sub-species, that behave as governors to Bowser, yet since the Koopa Kingdom is a monarchy and not a republic, then these governor koopas would be prince koopas, making them symbolic "children" of King Bowser. This could also explain why the Koopalings were absent for so long after Super Mario World; perhaps Bowser stripped these governors of their power for failing him, yet in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Bowser gave them another chance with his literal son in charge of them.

Maybe I am over thinking this, but it has always been unclear as to why Bowser Jr. debuted way after the Koopalings, and it be a shocker to Princess Peach on Pinna Park when she said "So, you're Bowser's son!?!" implying that she either 1, knew Bowser had a kid, but never met him or 2, that she was surprised that Bowser had a kid at all. If the Koopalings were Bowser's true children, as well, then wouldn't Peach have said something more like, "So you're one of Bowser's sons!?!"

Again, I'm way over thinking this, but I'd love to hear some feedback as to your thoughts on this.

DARTHZERIMAR 22:07, 24 January 2011 (UCT)

The Koopalings are in fact Bowser's children. We're talking about video games here, not real life. I'm pretty sure in the SMAS25AE booklet it says Bowser's children are helping or something like that. So, they are real.

Yes, but the whole point of my argument is whether the definition of "Bowser's children" means "biological offspring" or more of an honorable title given to 7 high-ranking Koopas, tied second only to Bowser (and eventually third to Bowser Jr.) I know many of y'all will be adamant on "Bowser's Children" being literal, but there are many more examples of a leader's top-ranking lieutenants being referred to as his "children" or "sons."

Another perfect example is when Koopa Kid is split into the Red, Blue, and Green K. Kids in Mario Party 5, where they call Bowser "Dad" and Bowser is shown grounding them from playing with their Mario action figures. This is a seemingly clear example of Parent-Child relationship, yet it is pretty much agreed that Koopa Kid, from Mario Party, is not really Bowser's offspring.

DARTHZERIMAR 22:35, 24 January 2011 (UCT)


 * You're reading too much into the Koopaling stuff: our job on the wiki is to report the official information, not speculate on what "children" means. The Koopa Kid's use of "dad" is interesting, but you still can't discuss it like this here. As I said in the below section, bring these discussions to the forum. - 23:42, 24 January 2011 (EST)

He might be onto something, though. True the Kokuppa were known as siblings in Japan, but them being his kids might've been an American invention. I'll have to check sometime. LinkTheLefty 00:28, 4 May 2011 (EDT)

Meaning of the Name "Koopaling"
Hey, I've been wondering this one for a while, as well, but has Nintendo confirmed what the meaning of "Koopaling" even means? The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities:

1. Koopa Underling. Explanation: The Koopalings are the underlings of King Bowser Koopa, which they are. Problem: Other than to Bowser, they are underlings to nobody else.

2. Koopa Youngling. Explanation: The Koopalings are child or adolescent Koopas, which they are, not to mention their original title as the "Koopa Kids." Problem: The use of the root word "-ling" to describe something as young, typically implies infancy or young childhood, which the Koopalings (other than Lemmy Koopa MAYBE) are not.

3. Koopa Sibling. Explanation: The Koopalings are a group of 7 siblings, which they are (assuming they are Bowser's literal biological children)  Problem:  Bowser Jr. would, by definition of sibling, be the 8th Koopaling, which he is confirmed not to be, by Nintendo.

Therefore, which "-ling" definition most describes the Koopalings? I suppose there could be a bit of all 3, but if one had to give only one "-ling" word to merge with Koopa, then which one would it be?

DARTHZERIMAR 22:23, 24 January 2011 (UCT)


 * Nintendo has stated that the Koopalings are Bowser's children, and these sorts of discussions don't belong here anyway: they belong on the forums. - 23:34, 24 January 2011 (EST)

Who is Bowser's wife?
I never seen his wife, but there must be one. Where did the koopalings come from if there isn't a wife? SuperPaperFan 15:51, 6 December 2011 (EST)
 * Again, this type of talk belongs on the forums, not the talk pages of articles here. Please don't post more discussion on talk pages unless you are trying to improve the articles.

Actually i was.
 * The UK's Nintendo Power once mentioned a wife in an article that's probably not supposed to be taken seriously. This section in the "Implied Character" list is the full extent of the information we have on the matter, and everything else is speculation. - 15:02, 7 December 2011 (EST)

Link needs to be fixed
In the trivia section, the link to Mario's Early Days goes to a disambiguation page. Can someone fix it? Jdrawer 18:31, 25 February 2012 (EST)

Koopalings in 3D Land?
The article says that they were planned to be in SM3DL. This should be removed as there is no reference that proves this. Someone look into this ease?

Physical Appearances
Should I add that Morton and Wendy have shown the least amount of change? They're the only 2 who didn't get their shell, hair, size, and/or face altered in any way. KoopaKiller13 19:52, 24 June 2012 (EDT)

Not Bowser's children
In an interview with Game Informer, Miyamoto stated that the Koopalings are not Bowser's biological children, and Bowser Jr. is Bowser's only biological child. Link: --A Pimp Named Slickback 15:34, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
 * From the same interview: Mario and Luigi do not have family names and Mario is not an actual doctor. Koopalmier (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2012 (EDT)


 * He didn't said biological. It's because currently they "stopped" stating they were Bowser's children and started saying they were Bowser's minions, even in New Super Mario Bros. 2. We cannot confirmed they aren't Bowser's biological children, nor that they aren't his children neither because they were meant to be his children. It says that the current story (now) is that the Koopalings aren't his children and Bowser Jr. is his only child. So, how was it before, and how it will be in the future? Will Shigeru and the developers start considering them as Bowser's children again? People should know that, even Bowser care a lot for the Koopalings too regardless for his care for his descendant, it was a long time that we never seen Bowser treating them like his children since Bowser Jr. made his debut. If they weren't Bowser's children, it's more than exceendingly cruel for them.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 19:55, 14 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Clearly the only explanation is that Bowser disowned them. I added a bit to the introduction and the "Family Relationship" section saying that they're "currently" not considered to be his kids. However, I don't think this is enough to go back and retcon over 20 years of calling them his children: that's the story that everyone knows and is expecting, and I think we should leave it intact while the interview statement is left as more of a footnote. - 21:51, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Ah, finally. Thank you Walkazo. I feel a lot better now. ^_^ --Prince Ludwig (talk) 06:10, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Except that they were never his children in Japan, right? Wasn't this simply a translation issue, just like Peach being called Toadstool? As far as I know the American canon had them as children until Super Mario Advance 2 was released, then they were simply referred to as his "generals" or minions from then on. They were siblings, and of the same species as Bowser, but not necessarily Bowser's children. Miyamoto isn't really retconning anything, he's simply fixing an inconsistency between the two canons that has technically not actually been mentioned ever since they started reappearing. In Japan, they were never thought of as his children, which is presumably why they were forgotten for so long and why Bowser Jr. exists. Fizzle (talk) 10:15, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * He said they aren't his children. That means that THEY ARE NOT HIS CHILDREN. That is what Miyamoto himself said. They aren't related to Bowser at all. Those who disagree just can't face the truth.


 * Just forget what I just said there. I was just angry. What I'm trying to get across is that there is even proof that they are not Bowser's kids. For example, Bowser never shows fatherly love to the Koopalings like he does with Jr. I say they aren't his kids and any pages saying that they are should be changed as such. However, I am aware that some people disagree with me. I suggest we make a proposal on this. Mario3D64 (talk) 10:59, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * We need to mention that they originally WERE his kids in the English canon, in Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario World and... presumably Yoshi's Safari, but that has been retconned since then and never been mentioned since. Serious question, when was the last time they were referred to as his children? Fizzle (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * If I had to take a guess i'd say the NSMBWII prima guide (I base this off of the fact that Bowser Jr. is called a Koopaling in it. Also the guide for Super Mario Advance 4 does refer to the Koopalings as Bowser's kids.
 * I don't think Prima guides (or even some official guides) can be taken as "canon" exactly. While they are a source of English canon, particular in terms of names for things, they are also known for their mistakes and assumptions. Heck, it calls the Koopa Clown Car a "carriage", which is just weird. I haven't seen them referred to as Bowser's children for a long time, I even remember the official website for SMA2 referring to them as "generals" and that was ages ago. I will check the SMA4 guide you mention, but I think other sources should be looked at, mainly manuals. Fizzle (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * The wiki policy states that Prima guides are in fact canon since they are officially licensed by Nintendo (also the Super Mario Advance 4 thing I think the manual also calls them Bowser's kids.)
 * Well, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, considering that Prima guides have been proven MULTIPLE times to be incorrect and full of inaccuracies. It's BS policies like that one why no one takes us serious, sigh. - Ericss (talk) 21:03, 8 November 2012 (EST)
 * There are levels of canonicity, that's my point. Manuals would usually override guides, for example. And Miyamoto certainly would. As SMA4 was a remake it's hard to say, did it just copy and paste the plot from the original manual? Either way, ever since they reappeared in the NSMB series I'm not sure if they were ever called his children, and in Japan they've never been known as that to my knowledge. Fizzle (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Different levels of canon don't really exist on the wiki except the fact that I believe Nintendo Power guides trump Prima guides and games trump manuals. Also according to this guy the Koopalings were Bower's kids in the original Japanese manual for SMB3 (or at least that the context implies it).
 * That whole bit is particularly interesting, thanks for that, and ties in with Miyamoto's recent comments. It seems an issue of interpretation, and since Bowser Jr. came along, the interpretation is that they're not his actual children. presumably. I get the feeling this whole issue requires a section on the page pretty much devoted to it, so as to explain the inconsistencies with them once being Bowser's children and now them no longer being so. Fizzle (talk) 19:24, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

Hey guys, let's not argue. Can you guys at least realize he didn't state that they weren't his children from the beginning and that he never said that they weren't related to Bowser? He said that the current story is that the Koopalings aren't Bowser's children and that Bowser Jr. is his only child, which means that they can be considered as Bowser's children again. He didn't said "biological", "related", any of sort. One more thing, the Koopalings are meant to be Bowser's children for the very beginning, which means that we should do so in Mario's current era instead of changing the story. You know, we argue because we don't agree that the Koopalings aren't Bowser's children, something we can't deal with. We like the Koopalings a lot more than we like Bowser Jr.

Yeah, Bowser Jr. often upset lots of Mario fans after Super Mario Sunshine, when he replaced the Koopalings AND Boom Boom, eventually being like the combination these 8 Koopas (Bowser's faithful son), so it's like that it's the character the cause of these problems.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 20:45, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I don't think we were arguing, just discussing. I'm not sure what your point is though, either they're his children or they are not. At the moment, the canon is that they are not, and so the article should reflect this, right? While it may change in future, like you suggest, I find this quite unlikely, unless they plan to retcon Bowser Jr. out of the series. I see this as Miyamoto attempting to correct the American canon to the Japanese canon, where their status as Bowser's children was never that obvious in the first place. PERHAPS it might change again in future, but the fact is that they are not his children now. And I'm not sure where biology comes into it.
 * Don't get me wrong, I quite got used to them being his children, but with Bowser Jr. in the continuity it never made much sense, so I'm happy to go with the concept that they are not, and are simply young versions of his species who act as his minions. Obviously he still dotes on them as if they are children somewhat, and presumably they are all siblings, but they're not his actual children, because that's Bowser Jr.'s role now. Fizzle (talk) 20:59, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

I know, right? So, I wouldn't consider as them not being Bowser's actual children (though we can still say Bowser is their father). But that's kind of cruel because I still see them as Bowser's children. They had many things they got from their father. Meh, we can say they have a different role since they are all adults now. It really is up to Bowser Jr. now... :/--Prince Ludwig (talk) 21:18, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

Woah, Fizzle you're at Mario Wiki to! Yay! Besides that, I never really considered them his children either... besides I don't think Bowser can have 7 children that have a drastically different physical appearances than his physical appearance. As such, we still need to put that they were refered to as his kids in the Super Mario Super Show and some of the games. --XXSuperXXNintendoXx (talk) 22:28, 15 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Oh, indeed, my proposal is to mention their original role then state that now they're considered his generals rather than children, or something to that basic effect. And yeah, I'm here too! The Mario Wiki is a lot more active than the Zelda one so I doubt I'll be as busy here but there are a lot of crossover enemies in the games so I logged on to help fix inconsistencies between the two wikis. The Koopalings are just something I felt like I needed to jump in on after I read the story. Fizzle (talk) 08:12, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Actually, we might have to mention it as being possibly just English exclusive. Even LinkTheLefty, the guy you referenced earlier, also mentioned that one of the hints to their being Bowser's children, Larry referring to Bowser as "Oyaki", can also just as easily be intended to mean that they have fanatical devotion to Bowser (as Oyaki, besides the implied father aspect, also is used as a term of endearment or closeness). Besides, in the Japanese versions at least, any hints towards possible lineage to Bowser effectively ended with Super Mario World, where its manual does not list any blood relations to Bowser at all. Anyways, I rewrote portions of the article to reflect the change, as they were most likely intended to be a fanatical task force in the Koopa Troop anyways. it wouldn't be the only time that a task force has referred to themselves as if children to their leader even when they don't actually have blood relations to said leader. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * That "task force" idea is WAY more speculative than interpreting "the 7 little-Bowser siblings" (which is what this scan translates to: see here for the explanation) as "Bowser's 7 kids", and the 俺様の息子達 quote translates directly to "my children". The nature of the Japanese language means there's a bit of wiggle room, but in both cases, the familial connection is about as strongly implied as it could be: any other interpretation is a bit left field. Besides that, your also putting a lot of words in Nintendo's mouth here. All Miyamoto said in that Q&A was that Nintendo's "current" story is that they're not Bowser's kids (see the scan for yourselves - the full quote is: "Our current story is that the seven Koopalings are not Bowser's children. Bower's only child is Bowser Jr. and we don't know who the the mother is."). Where is all this "they're meant to be Mini-Bowsers" stuff coming from? All I found was a random guy's comment on the Screw Attack forum that reported the Q&A, and since you provided no references for your changes (which involved copy-and-pasted stuff directly from Link The Lefty's talk page, which is technically plagiarism, fyi), I have to ask, where exactly has Miyamoto "stated that the characters were intended to be 'Mini-Bowsers'"? Going back to the confirmed quote, the "currently" implies that Nintendo used to go by the "Bowser's kids" story, and while he could be referring to NoA's more explicit take on the matter, he doesn't actually specify: he could easily be talking about NoJ, or both - we don't know, and we shouldn't presume to know. All the scraps of Japanese content strongly indicates that they were his kids there too at first, so all the "English translation" speak should be toned down or cut out entirely. Additionally, the Koopalings have been understood to be Bowser's kids for over 20 years - that's a lot more than "some mediums", and that sort of offhand dismissal of decades of Mario history should definitely be scrubbed from the pages. We have to say that the story is fuzzy and all that, but we should not act like this one quote trumps the rest of the history, because it doesn't, it just adds to the mess - a mess we have to deal with neutrally. None of this "Junior sucks / the Koopalings look nothing like Bowser" chatter: save those sorts of opinions for the forum. This is not about legitimizing one school of thought or preserving another: it's about reporting their convoluted history as clearly and accurately as possible. Sorry, but your rewrites do not do this at all, and must be changed (I'd do it myself if I had a couple more hours of free time tonight, but frustratingly, this is not the case). - 21:51, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Fine, I'll try to undo the edits. Thought I was helping, but I guess not. I hope Miyamoto elaborates soon on what he meant by "currently." As for the mini-bowsers thing, I think I read about it on Wikipedia. It mentioned something about their original intention being replacements to Bowser. I'll try to find out if there's a source besides Wikipedia, though. Actually, the Nintendo Power guide did refer to Ludwig as being Bowser's second in command frequently, even when they would have used heir if to imply familial relationship. When people think of "second-in-command," they usually would think of the line of command in a military organization, so we might need to at least keep the military aspect. Let me point out, however, that I never had any doubt prior to that magazine article that the Koopalings and Bowser Jr. were both Bowser's children, not even once. And Miyamoto was most likely referring to the American audience anyways (as LinkTheLefty pointed out, the Japanese Wiki mentioned that any hints at the Koopalings being related to Bowser in the Japanese versions ended as early as Super Mario World, so I doubt that he would need to address it to the Japanese audience, since they most likely would have deduced that they weren't that). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:02, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * I honestly used the Mini-Bowsers on my Talk Page as an example of people who look at the scan but don't see the evidence of Bowser being their father - I think I've heard of the analogy in the immediate reaction to Miyamoto's quote, but I don't remember where exactly. It could have been on the Screw Attack forums. There's nothing off hand that links it to Miyamoto. コクッパ7兄弟 (Kokuppa 7 Kyōdai [Bros.]) was their original group name in the Famicom version of Super Mario Bros. 3, but if Miyamoto, Tezuka and the current staff no longer consider the Koopalings to be Bowser's own children at this point then it could easily be just that - a group name. As I said below, their group name kept changing in Japan, so this is the only time in a manual that they call themselves siblings (it wouldn't be the only time - didn't one of the later sports spinoffs call Wario & Waluigi the Wario Bros. and Luigi & Yoshi the "Green Bros."?). Their relation is heavily implied, yes, but I made the case that オヤジ (Oyaji) can very easily be taken another way. I'll admit that the 「俺様の息子達」 spoken by Bowser is a bit harder to explain because it is far more natural to read that as Bowser talking about his own children than the other way around. In fact, there's almost no mistaking that statement, but from my recollection that would pretty much be as direct as the manual gets. However, while you can simply read it as "my children", Bowser is being cartoonishly arrogant when he says this (俺様 is literally ore-sama). It's hard to take him seriously when he refers to himself so highly - it's like he's trying to be more imposing, but it comes across as stuck-up and immature. It reminds me of how he was insecure in Super Mario RPG. Also on the Japanese side of things, I've read that Super Mario-Kun considers the Koopalings to be Bowser's children, although I myself can't confirm or deny this. Though if you've been following my Talk Page, you'll see that I'm anxious to get my Super Mario Bros. 3 manual scanned. The small bit of research I've made is based on Japanese Wiki and how its only source is Super Smash Bros. Melee and in the characters' speech bubbles of the Famicom manual, as I don't personally recall this detail when I looked through it. There's not much more I can add at this moment; it would probably be best to wait until I am able to scan it - we'll have more conclusive translations then. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:18, 17 September 2012 (EDT)

I think they were his kids in the orignal game. But the New Super Mario Bro games they are not. I think Nintendo does not want to come out and say it but they have rebooted Super Mario Bros. And there for we have 2 Timeline games here. The Orignal Games and then the New Super Mario Games. One key thing thatshow that they are his kids are he has rooms in the castle. Both in Mario is missing and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga  they live with Bowser  jawsisra (talk) 11:55, 04 Dec 2012


 * Castles are essentially government buildings and/or military bases in addition to homes, so their having rooms in Bowser's castle, as well as living in them doesn't make them his children any more than it makes VP Joe Biden President Barack Obama's kid. Heck, in old times and even today, servants did actually live with their masters. Also, the English localizations for the games may have referred to the Koopalings as Bowser's kids, but as far as I know, the Japanese stopped identifying them as Bowser's children after Super Mario Bros. 3. Heck, even in English releases prior to the New Super Mario Bros. series, the Koopalings still had some ambiguity towards blood lineage to Bowser. For one thing, Mario is Missing's SNES manual had referred to the Koopalings as "Bowser's Bad Boys", which could imply minions or children, and the DOS version actually has the Koopalings referring to Bowser by a first name basis rather than using a familial title, which actually takes points AWAY from them being his children. Before anyone mentions Bart Simpson referring to his dad by first name basis as a counter-example, that's different, because Bart was clearly showing little respect for his father. The Koopalings in that game were definitely showing respect to Bowser, being extremely loyal, in some cases even willing to take death (Roy and Iggy) if it ensures Bowser's success. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 06:58, 5 December 2012 (EST)
 * Edit: I should also point out that, regarding Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga, the way Bowletta interacted with them implied that they did, in fact, act more like guards or servants than his children. In addition, I doubt the rooms Mario and Luigi located and fought the Koopalings in were actually their rooms. If anything, their rooms/quarters were most likely beyond Bowser's Throne Room in the castle, going by the cutscene where Bowletta deploys the Koopalings. Most likely, they were manning stations that would activate security devices that they were stationed to guard to prevent the Mario Bros. from advancing. That would also explain some of the puzzles and the pathways being unlocked shortly after their defeat. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 07:06, 5 December 2012 (EST)

Ok more evadance can be found in Official Nintendo Power Guide Books such as Super Mario Advance 4 Super Mario Bro 3 that they are in fact his children. Page 96 says Crown Prince of Koopa. Also Page 52 Says Wendy is the Only Female of the Koopa Family  Next  Page 114 says Ludwig is 2nd in command only to Bowser him self. Now tell me they are not his Kids. There more Evadance that the New Super Mario Games are a new series or a reboot of the orignal but they have been his kids up to the NEW Super Mario Bro Games. Nintendo even reveals this more times. And do not give me that Prima mistake because The Guide book for Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bro 3 was made by Nintendo not Prima talk)

What Nintendo needs to do is release a Timeline for Mario like they did for Zelda and state in it what games they are his kids and what games they are not. We are all taking it as face value but here something no one has say for sure or not. What if Mario is like Zelda at one point the games go off in their own timelines and there for a "current" story could mean that either Nitnendo is doing a new story were they are not meaning the old story is they were his kids Like Jawsisra said could be a reboot. Or Like Zelda diffirent games fall into diffrient Timelines and there for in 1 time line they are his kid and in another they are not. Till More info on this "current" Story is talking about is told we need to look at this with open eye. Also he say "current story" so I would say there is more then 1 story were they are his kids. And another thing could be is Nintedo of Japan has 1 story and Nintendo of America has another story using the same games. All of these are posiblitys and till more is told we will never know fully.


 * I don't think Lemmy's title was meant to imply he was Bowser's son or even that he was literally a prince. For one thing, the title was most likely intended to be a bit of a shout out to The Joker, since the latter is frequently known by the title "The Clown Prince of Crime." Even if the title was meant to mean he was literally a prince, that doesn't necessarily imply that he's related to Bowser. There are at least two types of Princes in existence: One is the one you are familiar with, where it is a relative, most likely direct, of the king via bloodline and thus heir to the throne. The other is closer in position to that of governors, which are largely installed by a king without them necessarily being directly related to the king, or heck, even being related to the king at all. You've pretty much got a point on Wendy and possibly Ludwig, however. Then again, the exact description of Ludwig was "second in command", which can just as easily be referencing a military hierarchy and not just in terms of bloodline inheritance, or if even that. Kazuhira Miller, for example, was the second in command to Big Boss in the Militaires Sans Frontieres in Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, yet it's perfectly obvious that they don't have any blood relationship to each other other than possibly having the same ancestor in Adam and Eve. They would have most likely used "blood heir to the throne" if they wanted to ensure that viewers got that Ludwig was definitely Bowser's kid, at least. And don't forget, while America may have kept up with the charade about the Koopalings being Bowser's kids, in Japan, they pretty much abandoned that concept after Super Mario Bros. 3 or at the very least kept it unmentioned. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2012 (EST)

It reads like this or Lemmy's title "The Crown Prince of Koopas would rather join the circus then rule Iced Land, but has an oblgation to protct his tyrannical Koopa family from Mario, our pasta-eating plumber protagonist" jawsisra (talk)


 * Okay, this is starting to get into forum discussion territory, so I'm gonna stop you both there. Fact is, a lot of SMB3-era material said they were Bowser's kids (in fact, I just noticed today that the back of the Super Scope box calls them Bowser's offspring in its blurb for Yoshi's Safari). It doesn't matter if it was mostly confined to English material - it's still official. It is also fact that Nintendo has abandoned the idea that they are related - but just because the current story says they're unrelated doesn't mean the old story should be retroactively written off as false or mistaken or whatever. If you're gonna toss words like "charade" around, go to the forums, because talk pages are about how articles should handle info, and that is not how we deal with official facts on this wiki. Speculating on wording is also going too far: as stated here, this kinda reading between the lines is not good practice at all, so again, take it to the forums if you're gonna dissect every statement you don't agree with (this goes for both anti- and pro-Koopaling folks). On the flip side, talk about "reboots" or different languages having different stories is pure speculation, which is also to be avoided on our articles, and by extension, our talk pages. Nintendo hasn't given us a timeline, so all we can say is that their current story is their current story, and that it's different from the old story: just the facts, no interpretation or attempts to mash it together, or anything like that. Again, feel free to do that kinda pondering on the forums on on your user talk pages, but this conversation is no longer relevant to the quality of the article, and so, can no longer be held on this mainspace talk page. Thank you, and good night. - 21:45, 17 December 2012 (EST)

Not Bowser's Kids?


Oh my god, according to this the Koopalings are not Bowser's children. Oh my god, could someone verify this- I'm starting to panic? Moolala (talk) 19:58, 16 September 2012 (EDT)


 * We've already got that topic covered above. Either way, technically, their relationship to Bowser was not actually mentioned in the Japanese materials, so it's likely they are basically the Mario equivalent of the Sons of The Boss/The Cobra Unit from Metal Gear Solid 3 (eg, people who are fanatically devoted to Bowser's cause to the extent that even though they are technically not related, they are close enough to acting like his children). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:05, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Actually, I do have a small follow-up to that. Someone directed my attention to this video earlier, and in it the announcer identifies them as Bowser's kids when they talk about the airships. Now keep in mind that this is a pre-release sneak peek, but we can see that the Japanese audience was intended to understand them as Bowser's kids before they abandoned the idea. In the context of the original published Famicom manual itself, there is nothing that directly states this to my knowledge; there is a great implication at a familial / close relationship in some of the flavor speech bubbles each character had (which I've already covered for now, but I'll get to the rest at a later date and see if they speak of Bowser in a different tone), which can be taken either way. Outside of Super Smash Bros. Melee and maybe some other Famicom-era materials (it warrants a small investigation, but I see no sign of others post-release), it would seem that there are no other Japanese materials that directly state their relation and that it's basically a context issue with how some people interpret the flavor dialog. Since Miyamoto has said that he and his staff don't consider Bowser as their father, I'd personally view the Koopalings as more like young nobles, maybe indirect relatives, or otherwise somehow grew up around their king on a more personal level given Larry and Bowser's informal language - but I digress since that's heading into theory territory. I think that they were meant to be Bowser's own kids at the time, but Nintendo left the wording ambiguous upon release then changed their stance by their second appearance in Japan. I also think anything the series creator says without the objection of Takashi Tezuka and other staff ought to trump most sources in terms of the games, since that's essentially as close to "Word of God" as this franchise will get. I did find his idea of the Mario characters as a troupe of actors interesting - maybe he believed the Koopalings originally would have served a good role as Bowser's children, but does not at the moment because he views the Mario characters as malleable (hence "current")? Just a thought. On a side note, I should mention that their group name seems to change with each major appearance in Japan - they were first the コクッパ7兄弟 (Kokuppa 7 Kyōdai [Bros.]) in Super Mario Bros. 3, then they were the コクッパ7人衆 (Kokuppa 7 Ninshū [Team]) in Super Mario World. I believe they were just コクッパ in Mario & Luigi (I don't know about Yoshi's Safari). After their hiatus, they came back in New Super Mario Bros. Wii as クッパの手下[たち] (Kuppa no Teshita[-tachi] - or Koopa's Subordinates). LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Well, if they were intended to be malleable actors, that would probably explain why the Paper Mario games and Super Mario Bros. 3 were implied to be curtain plays, or the ending for Superstar Saga being a movie theater. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 23:07, 16 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Just gonna throw my two cents in and say that for me the fact that he says that the current story is that they aren't his kids implies that they were at one point his kids.
 * Well, at first we believed he was just referring to the American canon, but after what LinkTheLefty has stated I guess they were implied to be his actual sons in Japan too. Bowser really does say "my sons" in the Japanese manual, however Wendy is among them, so perhaps this was always somewhat vague and could be translated as "my heirs", and not meant to be literal offspring. Either way, it was probably retconned when Bowser Jr. joined the fray, because however you swing it they are no longer his offspring or his heirs. Hey, at least they weren't forgotten. Fizzle (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
 * It could mean that they have grown up and are no longer considered children :P

Oh wait hold on, there was a section about this above. Moolala (talk) 07:50, 17 September 2012 (EDT)


 * It's right Raven, they are grown-up adults, especially Ludwig von Koopa. All that's left is Bowser Jr., who currently slowly mature.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2012 (EDT)

Things that should be cleared up.
So when I was giving this article a look-over, two things in particular stuck out to me: the claim that Lemmy and Morton are mentioned in the PC Mario is Missing manual as loafing around (which I find iffy because the Koopalings weren't even mentioned by name in the console manuals), and the claim that Iggy / Ludwig created their mechs in Yoshi's Safari. Both statements lack a tangible source, and I feel they should be cited because I'm not sure if they are fanon ideas or if Nintendo really did officially state this. Is someone able to confirm or deny this with official backing? LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:35, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
 * The first are probably true due to the fact that they don't appear in the game while the others do (of course I don't own the pc version so I can neither confirm nor deny anything) and I can't confirm the Yoshi's Safari one either because I don't own it. So we are now stuck because on one hand they could be false and on the other hand they could be true but we have no way of knowing because we don't have the manuals so the real question is do we want to remove info that might be true because we can't confirm it (also I think it's important that we find out who added that info.)
 * Actually I am now 100% convinced that the Mario Is Missing info is true because it was added by one of are finest editors and I trust his word completely.
 * They should still list sources... I can see in the "Mario is Missing" section that someone mentioned Lemmy and Morton's artwork is in the PC manual, but it does not say anything about the reason they are missing in action. You can, however, find console manual scans and transcripts very easily online. I can say that the Yoshi's Safari mentions nothing, so unless it came from some obscure strategy guide then I have doubts. Morton and Larry are also in the SNES Mario is Missing manual. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Alright I think we can remove the Yoshi's Safari one (because I don't think Nintendo Power made a guide for that so any guide would be unofficial) however I still trust Sir Grodus who did in fact add the Mario is missing info in.
 * Yeah, nothing in-game, in the manual or on the boxart of Yoshi's Safari mentions the origin of the mechas (although the back of the box calls the Koopalings Bowser's offspring again). I haven't had any luck tracking down the NES or DOS versions of the Mario is Missing! manuals, but I confirm that Lemmy, Morton and Larry are all pictured in the SNES version (as well as a screenshot from Ludwig's room), with the text stating that "Bowser and his bad boys are back to a life of crime" (and with Wendy not getting a picture or an in-game appearance, it is just the six boy Koopalings involved in the SNES version). However, Wendy is on the back cover of both the NES and DOS boxes, and Lemmy's on the latter one as well. I think we should remove all that questionable info; who added the MiM! tidbit isn't the greatest argument against doing so anyway, since there's always the chance that Sir Grodus was misled by a faulty source (which could have even been the wiki itself, if he was simply moving preexisting misinformation around). - 21:10, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
 * To my shame, I own the PC version of the game. However, it's probably hidden away somewhere and whether I still have the manual or not I have no idea. If I locate it, I'll check. Fizzle (talk) 09:41, 6 January 2013 (EST)

Adding Solo Art?
I like editing artwork together a lot, so I use different Koopaling artworks put together sometimes too. So I think that we should list the Koopalings' solo arts on this page, so it's easier to see them all and access them. Plus it just kinda makes sense. --Peanutjon (talk) 17:00, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Bowser's minions
Bowser's minions may also refer to the Koopa TroopRPG Gamer. I HAVE RPG!! (talk) 07:26, 30 March 2013 (EDT).

the koopalings ARE bowsers childeren
i got proof that the koopalings ARE bowser childeren; in the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpiLhfVICYk, at 9:53 bowser says against kookie: ''kookie, what are you doing! i am your dear old king DAD''


 * That's the cartoons, they're not considered canon.
 * Yes they are: everything's canon. The shows are just outdated: the old story was that they were his kids, and the wiki talks about this in depth, however the current story is that they're not his kids, and so that's the story that gets top billing these days. - 19:24, 5 May 2013 (EDT)

yeah... the fact they have "Totally different names" including Bowser himself. And the fact the Mario Brothers have New York accents instead of Italian. You might as well say Captain N is canon to the Super Smash Bros. Multiverse.


 * Well, just to be fair, the cartoons came before Mario's getting an actual voice, so you can't say their having a Brooklyn accent is false, just inconsistent. There is no established canon to the Mario series, though, so we have to assume everything must be covered under the same section in "history". 23:29, 15 November 2013 (EST)

Boom Boom
Does anyone think that Boom Boom should be added, or at least a part of trivia? Boom Boom's page says that the Prima Guide calls him "the forgotten Koopaling". So, anyone think I should add this?

KingKamek


 * About that, Boom Boom is more like a cousin to them... I'm not sure you can't add that Boom Boom is a forgotten Koopaling here or officially consider him as a Koopaling.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2013 (EDT)

Good point. Thanks.

KingKamek

There isn't any proof that he's a cousin, is there? I think it should be added... 173.80.135.179 23:45, 5 August 2013 (EDT)
 * There isn't any proof he's related in the first place. 23:17, 7 August 2013 (EDT)

SMW credits picture fact
In smw the credits picture of them and bowser puts the koopalings with the same fighting strategy across from each other. Ludwig isn't across from any koopalings because he has his own strategy. Should these facts be added to the article.-pants98

Before I inadvertently cause an edit war...
Please show me where it says what type of world the Koopalings are battled in in every stage. Peanutjon (talk) 16:15, 18 February 2014 (EST) (aka the IP that added that, now logged in)


 * There's a table a few lines above the trivia point you were sticking that under. 16:18, 18 February 2014 (EST)


 * Still don't see it. Oh well. Peanutjon (talk) 16:24, 18 February 2014 (EST)


 * Wait, are you talking about the one that shows which world (number) they're battled in? It's a couple lines above where I tried to add it, but it's not the same thing. Mine shows type ("plains", "desert", etc.) whereas it shows number ("World 1", "World Mushroom", etc.) I mean, if it's unnecessary that's fine, but I can't find it... so... Peanutjon (talk) 16:24, 18 February 2014 (EST)


 * Yes, that one. In addition it is somewhat unneeded: each Koopaling has that mentioned in their own article. 16:26, 18 February 2014 (EST)


 * Then no, not the same thing. But I'm done now. Peanutjon (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2014 (EST)

A new Japanese name for the Koopalings. Kinda.
The most recent Japanese Mario Kart 8 Direct gave once again a different collective name for the Koopalings. Well, not so much different, more like a variation of the existing one. In the direct, they were called クッパ7人衆 aka 7 Bowser Team. Also, the announcer referred to them as "Kuppa-daimao no 'kon'"; I can't figure out if there is an n in that last word or not. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 16:40, 30 April 2014 (EST)
 * I hear "Kuppa-daimao no ko en"; first part would be "Great Demon Koopa Child(ren)", and then the only translation of "en" I found was "blood relation"(/"fate"/"karma"/"ties"), which is interesting if it's correct (I'm doing this at school so I don't have my dictionaries on-hand: I'll check again when I have time at home). Interestingly, Wendy's called 打倒プリンセス Datou Princess, or "Takedown Princess", but that's probably not indicating that she's an actual princess. - 18:22, 30 April 2014 (EDT)
 * True, I also checked the NoE version of the Direct, where the Koopalings are still called "Bowser's Minions". Wendy's title there was "Speed Queen". This makes the title kinda meaningless.
 * On the other hand, I checked the Japanese MK8 site. It has the same layout as the English ones, so navigation is easy. The Koopalings are also called there クッパ7人衆. The text talking about them calls them "Mario and his friends' rivals", while the bio is the same as in other sites saying "from lightweight to heavyweight".
 * This is all very interesting, because this "new" name isn't a direct indicator for the Koopalings being either Bowser's kids or minions. So far, no Japanese MK8 material has called them minions, as much as I know. But if your translation is correct, we have material that calls the Koopaling's Bowser's kids, or at least blood relatives. That would be the first game to do this since SMB3. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 05:44, 1 May 2014 (EST)

Okay, just came back looking through the net, and found out the word in question is actually 子分 (kobun), which apparently translates into henchmen/minions/protege. So the "minions" story remains still intact, but adds the flavor of the Koopalings being under Bowser's protection. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 03:13, 6 May 2014 (EST)
 * Awesome, thanks for figuring it out! My dictionary gives protege/follower as the definition for kobun; it definitely fits better than ko en. - 17:25, 6 May 2014 (EDT)

Full Names?
I think this was first noticed back when they reappeared together in Mario & Luigi (or even in Hotel Mario of all things), but the Koopalings' full names haven't really been used since either Super Mario World or the Nintendo Adventure Books. Maybe this is because Koopa as their surname implies a familial relation to Bowser, which is apparently not in Nintendo's interest right now. With that in mind, maybe their individual articles should drop it off in favor of just their first names? The way I see it, it has clearly fallen out of current official use... for example, we don't call the Koopa King "Bowser Koopa" as his article title since it's not commonly used, but it's still acceptable as part of his info box because it's been used in the past and hasn't been contradicted like, say, Mario Mario & Luigi Mario. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:32, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Hm, in this case, since all share "Koopa" after their first names, I think it would be natural to drop the "Koopa" part. I don't think the name has been fallen out of official use; rather, the "Koopa" part has been dropped because it's less repetitive or to shorten it (think Mario Kart 8). Moving the "Wendy O. Koopa" article name to just "Wendy O." or just "Wendy" would sound unnatural, or it would remove the pop cultural references, which is the reason she has that name in the first place. Same goes for Morton Koopa Jr. Besides, within their respective articles already, the "Koopa" part has been already dropped, which just makes it easier to type and read. But, when it comes to article names, we should keep it as it is. 16:56, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
 * In fact, in Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U the full names return (curiously enough, in the Wii U version the resemblance with Bowser Jr. is noticed, their relationship with Bowser is called a real mystery, and Pit after knowing that "kind of feels bad for them", so it's stil possible that, since the full names may suggest a familial relationship with Bowser, they were dropped until Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U). Mister Wu (talk) 19:10, 11 November 2014 (EST)
 * There's no doubt that they have a relationship with Bowser, but it isn't necessarily a literal sibling-father one. And, yeah, that their full names are still being used recently, it supports my case, doesn't it? 19:38, 11 November 2014 (EST)
 * Of course it does! What I wanted to say is that, however, that the relationship with Bowser since New Super Mario Bros Wii and especially after what Miyamoto said in 2012 was pretty clear (they are his minions, sidekicks, not sons and daughter). Palutena's guidance now adds fuel to a fire which should have been extinguished 2 years ago and unfortunately it's in the same games where the full names reappear, so even LinkTheLefty theory that the full names were dropped because they implied a familial relationship with Bowser, even if it's more unlikely, cannot be discarded, at least in my opinion. But of course this does not change the outcome: let's keep the full names!Mister Wu (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2014 (EST)
 * I agree that the use of the full names in SSB4 closes the case for now, with the argument Mario made earlier about keeping the historic names because they're so well established and would sound unnatural and disrupt the ppp culture references if shortened being fair rationales in and of themselves. It also is speculation to say that the names were pointedly shortened to make a statement, and not just omitted to cut down on repetition or save space (it could even be because they only have the first names in Japanese afaik, with the English versions of the modern games then circuitously taking the cue from that rather than following the original English names), and speculation is very bad grounds to chop stuff out of well-known page titles. Plus, it's not like the Koopalings are the only unrelated Koopas to be named "Koopa" - no one's thinking that Kammy Koopa, Holly Koopa or Kent C. Koopa) are related to Bowser, for example, so it's always struck me as more of a common name in that group of species, like how half the Toads have "Toad" as their surname, and whatnot. - 12:29, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Constant changing
Okay, this is getting out of hand. First they changed the Koopalings parentage, then they stated something about Larry, who everyone always assumed was the youngest, as the leader, and now everyone here is trying to change every last bit of relevant information? Guys, I'm sorry if I'm being a little over-reactive, but if we do too much changes, there probably won't be anything serious left on any Koopa Troop-related articles. Let's just wait a while, okay? I definitely don't want to change my fan fiction too drastically.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 15:56, 4 October 2014 (EDT)


 * Our hands are tied on the matter: if Nintendo changes something, we're obligated to reflect those changes with our articles. We're doing the best we can to preserve the old information as well as updating the articles to the new stuff. There have been attempts by some overeager editors to totally wipe out the original stuff, or completely write it off, or whatever, but we've resisted that in favour of a more objective approach to showing the changes. What Nintendo does and what we do with our articles doesn't have to change your own personal headcanons anyway: a lot of us DO keep the old versions in our fanfictions and whatnot (I sure do). But the wiki can't pick and choose like that: it's not fanon, it's fact. - 13:27, 5 October 2014 (EDT)


 * Okay, that sounds like a stable comprising.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 19:05, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * The source for Larry's being a leader, however, is a Smash Bros. trophy description. Trophy descriptions have a track record of being incorrect, including stating that King K. Rool's aliases are separate characters, Kirby's latest appearance, and several other things. While we shouldn't outright dismiss them, we shouldn't take it as fact. So, maybe we should mention it, but it shouldn't be changing textbooks here. 19:34, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I like to think that each of the Koopalings are leaders in their own ways, but I don't want people to take things too seriously.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 21:55, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * A Japanese Nintendo Direct for MK8 also called him the "Koopa army's special attack squad leader". I thought that meant that he was in charge of the spec-ops division of the Koopa Troop or something, but I guess whoever wrote the trophy interpreted it as the Koopalings being the special forces in question - suggesting that maybe that was how it was meant to be taken all along, idk. - 22:09, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I think it's just a division too, as the Koopalings can be seen as leaders within a division. You know, they are probably different authors, could be coincidence. This all amounts to speculation, though. :/ 23:41, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I guess we'll know so enough. In the meantime, perhaps we should talk about the Koopa Troop?--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 18:12, 6 October 2014 (EDT)
 * What do you mean? 03:08, 8 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I added a section there a few days ago about removing so much information from the article.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 18:59, 8 October 2014 (EDT)
 * That's irrelevant here, so no point bringing it up. - 13:12, 9 October 2014 (EDT)
 * No one probably knew it existed until now. Had to think of something.--Ladies-Man1 (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2014 (EDT)

Name Sources
I've heard forever that their names are from pop culture figures, and ones like Morton Koopa Jr, Wendy O. Koopa, or Lemmy Koopa are pretty obvious, but some aren't quite so cut and dry. With Roy it's commonly accepted it's a reference to Orbison, but it's not entirely out of the question that it could be Roy Rogers. And then there's Larry, the one I never heard any consensus on before, many people saying it was Larry King (which I always thought sounded silly, but then Morton Downey Jr. was a talk show host too). Now I've started hearing Larry Mullen Jr. Is there a solid source behind this? I've never been able to find one.

Also, regarding the assumption that it is Larry Mullen Jr, why did they not name him Larry Koopa, Jr. They didn't drop the Jr for Morton. Just a observation.


 * Dayvv Brooks, a person working for the localization group from Nintendo, actually came here and stated it. In case you were wondering, he did provide proof that he is who he said to be, with some emailing with one of our wiki sysops, so there's no question of legitimacy. I'm not sure why the Jr. wasn't added, though. As for Roy, there isn't really a source provided for his namesake, so... 19:30, 11 November 2014 (EST)


 * Well, worked, but yeah, I saw the proof with me own eyes and he's legit. The fact that he only corrected Larry's namesake and added Reznor's namesake suggests that the rest were accurate, including the Roy Orbison one. Unfortunately the lack of a confirmation isn't an easy thing to use as a reference, but it'd still be folly to throw out that namesake, I'd say. - 20:40, 11 November 2014 (EST)

The Koopalings are [insert repetitive statement]
It's been over two years, and I think it's well-understood at this point that Shigeru Miyamoto said in a 2012 interview that his and Takashi Tezuka's "current story" is that the Koopalings are not Bowser's children - which would correspond with the recent lack of solid proof otherwise. However, does it really have to be mentioned in the introduction of every single Koopaling or related article (even the old Clawdia Koopa one)? It's a bit redundant seeing essentially the same paragraph being reused as a constant reminder. An ideal example is the Cranky Kong article, which does well in containing a similar mess in just one section. The bottom line is that they're still considered a quirky clan of seven young siblings that act as right-hand minions in the Koopa Troop, which is enough of a defining aspect for them that hasn't changed much. Neverminding that Nintendo as a whole seems to be essentially "pulling a Waluigi" (as in, if the latest Smash Bros. is to be believed, a more ambiguous stance rather than a definitive assertion is being taken now), this can easily be condensed and left in the appropriate section rather than scattering around a big note nearly every time they're individually brought up. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2014 (EST)


 * I hate that I can't add much more to this, but it sounds like just about the right way to handle it, honestly. Lord Grammaticus (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2014 (EST)


 * yeah. --Glowsquid (talk) 17:44, 19 December 2014 (EST)


 * Done. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2014 (EST)

Were Iggy and Larry able to spit fireballs in Super Mario World?
When battling the aforementioned Koopalings in Super Mario World, after a while they put the head in the shell and throw out a big fireball. This has not been interpreted as spitting a fireball. However, when watching the artwork of Iggy and Larry at page 14 and 20 of the Ninntedo Power Super Mario World Guide and comparing it to the artwork of Ludwig at page 17, it seems that the two younger Koopalings are actually spitting fireballs as well. What do you think? Mister Wu (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Check the Mario Mania guide...

"'Iggy is on a tipsy turtle shell, shooting fire balls at Mario.' (pg. 61)"
 * So according to that sentence and the artwork you mentioned, I guess Iggy and Larry's projectiles are supposed to be fireballs. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Weird; the sprites pretty clearly depict them sucking in their heads and pulling out rubber star-marked balls... But then again, the sprites and the artwork of the Koopalings don't match up very well in and of themselves either, so what they do in-game and what stuff says they do aren't necessarily one and the same. - 19:06, 7 April 2015 (EDT)

Do you think this is relevant?
I found on Play Nintendo this old poll (Bowser's New Year's resolutions) in which, in Bowser's New Year's resolution, the last choice is "Try to spend some more time with the Koopalings." I think that this is again an insinuative sentence, because if we consider the Koopalings just his minions, the sentence doesn't make much sense, while if we consider them his children, it makes perfectly sense. I suspect it was some kind of "probe" sentence to know how many people still consider the Koopalings Bowser's children. What is your opinion about this? --Mister Wu (talk) 20:44, 22 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Interesting find! It certainly sounds more like a fatherly thing than a boss-and-minions thing, but I wouldn't go so far as to speculate that it's an attempt to surreptitiously see how many people consider them his kids. - 16:27, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

Source of the Airship artwork
What is the source of the "Official artwork of Bowser, Bowser Jr., and the Koopalings on an Airship"? Recently, a new picture of Larry Koopa, apparently from the same illustrator or character designer, surfaced in his Gallery and even that has no source at all. Furthermore, the noise in the latter image suggest that it's a magazine or a book scan.
 * I think the Koopaling airship came from press release (since it was uploaded by YoshiKong, who has had access to press release of official artwork). As for the Larry Koopa one, I have no idea where the source for that is, I'm not familiar with the user who uploaded it. 15:26, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

Should we clarify that official sources rule out the adoption theory?
Even though we know that the Mario universe so far has no canon and as such, the role of the characters and their familial relationships can change over time, there are still theories that try to reconcile the "old" story of the Koopalings with the "current" one. One of these is the adoption theory, stated by The game Theorists, that says that the Koopalings are adopted children. However, the Nintendo of UK's page for Super Mario Bros. 3 clearly states that the Koopalings are Bowser's offspring, i.e. biological children, thus ruling out this theory. Since this page is already in the references of the Koopalings' page, do you think it would be useful to clarify that the "old" story just can't be reconciled with the "current" one through this adoption theory? I am asking because while of course we cannot go and seek all the strange theories about the Koopalings and answer to them in this page, we aren't still very clear about the fact that official sources state that in the "old" story the Koopalings are Bowser's biological children either.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:07, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Ok, I'll word it better since it wasn't well written: should we add that the Nintendo UK page for Super Mario Bros. 3 states that the Koopalings are Bowser's biological children? Also, probably this adoption theory existed well before The Game Theorists stated it, this is just one of the most prominent recent examples.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:07, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Any fanon doesn't really belong here, even if it is popular. The Game Theorists are by no means a valid source, so we'll have to leave that out in the open. Once you provided a source, you are allowed to add information that Nintendo UK has stated that the Koopalings are Bowser's children; it has been an established fact before Miyamoto retconned it, so we still have to document it. Our purpose is to document and explain, point out the holes and ambiguity, but it's not our place to insert personal comments and opinions on the matter. We can list both stories despite their contradicting each other. So, in short word, you are allowed, and it's actually encouraged you do this, just as long as you source it properly. 22:13, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

What does Viridi add in the Japanese Palutena Guidance in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U?
I've been able to transcribe the Japanese Palutena Guidance for the Koopalings in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, found in the video here. Here is Ludwig's one:

Palutena:あれ は クッパ 7 人衆 の ひとり ルド ウィッグ です ね.

Pit:ん ? クッパ Jr. に 似 て ます けれど.

Palutena:乗っ て いる クラウン が 量産型 の よう に なっ て ます ね.

Pit:実子 の クッパ Jr. と は 扱い が ちがう という こと な の でしょ う か.

Viridi:クッパ と クッパ 7 人衆 の 関係 は ナゾ じゃ なあ. 手下 という こと じゃろ う か.

Pit:彼ら も タマゴ から 生まれ た の か なあ.

Palutena:まぁ 、 カメ です し ね.

Now, I'm not really into Japanese language, but I can see that, apart from the fact that the second part clarifies that the Koopas are again considered turtles born from eggs and that Bowser Jr. is clearly considered a biological child,, Viridi's line adds something interesting after saying that the relationshipo between Bowser and the Koopalings is a mystery, but I don't really understand what she says. Could someone help me in that?--Mister Wu (talk) 05:12, 14 October 2015 (EDT)
 * It's something like questioning the fact that they're called minions, roughly put. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:18, 14 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Thanks a lot! So this would reinforce the sense of ambiguity and of "said but not really said" that Super Smash Bros. for Wii U wants to give about the relationship between Bowser and the Koopalings.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:38, 14 October 2015 (EDT)

Pretty tired right now, but pretty sure this is a serviceable translation (square brackets are things that aren't direct translations but necessary to make sense in English / convey subtle language bsns / etc.):

Palutena: That's one of the Koopalings, Ludwig. Pit: Hm? But he looks like Bowser Jr. Palutena: It looks like he's riding in the mass production model Clown Car, hm? Pit: [But I think] the biological child Bowser Jr. and him are treated differently...? Viridi: Bowser and the Koopalings' relationship/connection is not an enigma. [I heard] they're [his] minions? Pit: I wonder if they were also born from eggs. Palutena: Well, they're [still] turtles, y'know?

- 22:16, 14 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Thanks, Walkazo! Now there seems to be quite a huge mistake in the translation to the other languages if this is the correct translation of the Japanese version. I am really wondering why the translators did a 180° turn in the meaning of the crucial sentence. And in the case you were wondering, this is true for many European languages as well: Italian here, Spanish here and German here.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:44, 15 October 2015 (EDT)
 * It's either some dialect or Viridi's speech style that may have messed this up. According to Jisho.org, there are no results for じゃなあ janaa, but there are results for じゃない janai, an expression of something "not being". SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 07:15, 15 October 2015 (EDT)
 * At this point, should we consider an update to the "Family Relationship" section, as the only clue left about a possible connection with the "old" story is the Play Nintendo page?--Mister Wu (talk) 08:12, 15 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Actually, I did some more digging around, because her simply saying it wasn't an enigma really didn't make sense with the overall line, and it turns out it's not slang turning "ja nai" into "ja naa", but an Okayama dialect way to say "it is". So the translations are accurate: she is playing up the mystery, so no groundbreaking info here after all. Anyway, I fixed the above translation; sorry for the temporary mix-up (dialects in dialogue are the bane of my existence, especially obscure ones, grr). - 17:42, 15 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Well, finding a translation for a dialect form was quite a feat! Well done, Walkazo! After all, she is still suggesting the "current" story as the most likely answer, while in the Western translations the mystery is all that is left, so this is still interesting to know. It's more like saying "we're being more possibilistic about the story, but still the current story holds" than saying "ok, from now on we will just leave it vague".--Mister Wu (talk) 22:04, 15 October 2015 (EDT)

Some parts relative to the Koopalings in the SMB3 sections of the 30th anniversary books
While I was looking for information about Boom Boom, I transcribed some text from the sections dedicated to Super Mario Bros. 3 in the 30th anniversary books, as Super Mario Bros. 3 is pretty much the main game in Japan where the Koopalings are explicitly Bowesr's children and so this part can be interesting to see how their funny "metastory" develops.

First of all, let's begin with the Super Mario Memorial Book:

本作 の 目的 は 、キノコ ワールド の 7 つ の 国 を 回っ て クッパ と クッパ 7 人衆 に 魔法 の 杖 を 奪わ れ 、 動物 の 姿 に 変え られ て しまっ し た 王様 を 助ける こと だ.

This is part of the introduction to Super Mario Bros. 3, and it can be seen that the Koopalings are referred to as クッパ 7 人衆, which is pretty much the current definition of the Koopalings.

Another small part is:

クッパ 7人衆と 対決 !

飛行船

各 ワールド の ボス は クッパ の 手下 たち. 倒す と ワールド ク リア と なる.

Here we even find the クッパ の 手下 which was introduced in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (although here we also have the たち added), so that could almost be a retcon of the "old" story.

Let's have a look now at the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., at the moment I found three parts (apart from the single descriptions which I will add in another moment):

さんざん こらしめ た はず の 大魔王 クッパ も マリオ の いる キノコ 王国 から は 手 を 引い た ものの 今度 は 子供 コクッパ 7 兄弟 を 仲間 に 入れ 、ワールド の あちこち で イタズラ の やり 放題.



This is taken from the story section of Super Mario Bros. 3, and it is pretty much a part taken straight from the story of the Japanese Super Mario Bros. 3 manual! So, after all this time, even in new material this story is still intact and unchanged, so the apparent retcon of the "old" story is not that true, after all! Of course, feel free to remove the scan once you confirm this!

In the description of the game, which is in the very same page, a different terminology is used:

クッパ 七人衆 や ボム へい 、 テレサ といった 、 いま で は お な じみ の 敵 キャラクター たち も 初登場.



They were probably tired of the 7 so we have クッパ 七人衆, which of course is still the term used in current (post Mario Kart 8) material, as well as in the Koopalings descriptions on page 15 of the Encyclopedia.

The last part is taken from the section about the kings:

各国 を 治める王様. コクッパ たち の イタズラ によって 、 姿 を 変え られ て いる.

Nothing earth-shattering, but we see again the コクッパ that fell in disuse since the New Super Mario bros. series and its current story, with the addition of the たち. I would say this is the Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga way to refer to them, a nice comeback.

In conclusion, all this material is interesting as the クッパ七人衆/クッパ7人衆 used now to refer to the Koopalings does not seem to be in contradiction with the original Super Mario Bros. 3 story, and can be used interchangeably with コクッパ, that fell in disuse with New Super Mario Bros. Wii and the arrival of the "current" story.

Of course, since I cannot consider myself a Japanese translator at all, if you notice blatant mistakes or find new aspects I am totally missing, or if you need the missing scans of my transcribed material, don't hesitate to reply!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:46, 18 November 2015 (EST)


 * I just noticed that 自分の is missing between 今度は and 子供コクッパ7兄弟, but I'm not fluent in Japanese either, can someone tell does this change anything? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:34, 19 November 2015 (EST)
 * 自分の jibun no essentially means "one's own", and removing it removes the explicit emphasis that they're "[Bowser's] own kids", so there is some relationship whitewashing going on there. - 11:59, 19 November 2015 (EST)
 * This is a nice catch! Does the meaning of the whole sentence change? What could be a proper translation of this new part?--Mister Wu (talk) 12:10, 19 November 2015 (EST)
 * The current sentence is just more ambiguous: the original one was "[stuff about King Koopa]...this time his own children, the 7 little Koopa siblings...", but now it's "[stuff about King Koopa]...this time [the] children, the 7 little Koopa siblings..." - with no explicit link between him and the kids. But keep in mind that I had to insert the "the" there to make it work for English: there's no pronoun at all in the Japanese, neutral or otherwise, to guide perceptions, and given their name, it'd still be reasonable for conclusions to be dawn from the sentence that their Koopa's kids rather than just random kids. Specifically saying their his kids would contradict the current story, but making it ambiguous like this doesn't: hence the change (I'm guessing). - 12:46, 19 November 2015 (EST)

So when are those Koopaling descriptions going to be added? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 08:45, 23 November 2015 (EST)
 * Regarding what is written above, my idea is writing something in the "Family Relationship" section regarding that vagueness that is there since SSB4 and is confirmed by the Encyclopedia, that even surgically cuts a word from the original SMB3 story transcription to affirm it. I would write it, but I don't have the numbers of the pages for the references right now, so I will write it later, hopefully today or tomorrow.


 * On the other hand, should the names "クッパ の 手下 たち" and "コクッパ たち" be added in the Japanese names section, along the original forms (NSMBW and M&L:SS)? That たち should be a generic form for group, so I don't know if it is relevant or not.


 * Finally, regarding the bios, it's just a matter of transcribing them and checking them. Of course, the proposed translations will be added to the characters' articles' talk pages, not here. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that Nintendo is defining the Koopalings in the Encyclopedia, we will see if the bios and stories from the new games tells us something, because Larry is still クッパ軍団の特攻隊長 even in the main characters' pages. Since the only other sentence about him is pretty much "one of the Clan of the Seven Koopas", you can see how important it should be to clarify if the Koopalings really are クッパ軍団の特攻隊, the "Suicide [missions] squad of the Koopa Troop" (no, even if it was the right translation, which is arguable, I won't use this term, as Walkazo already proposed a better term).--Mister Wu (talk) 10:17, 23 November 2015 (EST)


 * The Japanese section of Names in Other Languages is already cluttered enough, I feel like adding the -たち variants is unnecessary; all it really does is just emphasize they're a group for the sake of the sentence, and can be written off as grammar rather than actually part of the titles. As for adding the bios themselves to the article, unfortunately I've got a huge block of translation-checking quality-control problems that need to be dealt with sooner than later (adding info is lower priority for me than making sure misinformation isn't already on the wiki), but I'll try to get around to translating them in full and figuring out where to put them and whatnot sometime in the near future too (unless someone else proficient enough in Japanese wants to help...). No promises, however: keep in mind that I have a mountain of RL work to deal with too. - 11:39, 23 November 2015 (EST)

To quicken this somewhat, here's a scan of the page with the Koopaling (and other) bios found from tumblr. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
 * Thanks, I am already transcribing the bios, as you can see in the page of Larry Koopa, but since I didn't have a response on those bios I didn't go on.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:25, 30 November 2015 (EST)

This came to my mind: does the Encyclopedia contain merchandise or old advertisements for the games? Like this promotional SMB3 pamphlet, which directly confirms the Koopalings being Bowser's kids?

Also, this book isn't the first time the Koopalings' relation to Bowser in the story description is removed. The Japanese SMB3 Wii VC site made a bigger cut, which removes the part 「自分の子供」 ([Bowser's] children). Yet on the same page, there's Larry calling Bowser 「オヤジ」 oyaji, or "father". That said, the Japanese 3DS VC manual for the game goes back to directly calling the Koopalings Bowser's kids. This means that if the next time we see Nintendo copy-pasting the SMB3 story into their other official material, expect them to flip-flop between direct confirmation and ambiguity, while there may be other stuff that gives us direct confirmation. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 10:18, 11 December 2015 (EST)
 * Yes, the SMB3 pamphlet you are talking about is present on page 109 (the left part, which is the most common one), but it's actually very small, and the text is barely readable (in the case of kanji pretty much unreadable), a bit like in the image you linked to.


 * Regarding the matter of incomplete copies of the original Super Mario Bros. 3 story, especially in relation to the Koopalings being Bowser's children, I added that sentence in the "Family Relationship" section because it continues the trend of ambiguity toward this matter started with SSB4 and because I think the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is supposed to be an important reference for official information about the characters, if you think that this is not really relevant you can of course just delete that sentence. The "other stuff" might be coming sooner than expected anyway, if this is the proper translation of the same sentence in the Japanese version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:57, 11 December 2015 (EST)
 * And what about the memorial book, is it there as well? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:23, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * No. It isn't there. By the way, regarding that Morton's line in the German version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, the first part is absent in the Japanese version, as you can see here. However, the story is quite more complex than that. I will talk about it in a separate section, because some parts about the Koopalings' and Bowser Jr.'s family relationships in Paper Jam are apparently found in the European versions (not only in a single language) but not in the Japanese one.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:24, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * Looks like I was sorta right regarding my above statement: Super Mario Advance 4 is coming to Wii U VC, and its manual calls the Koopalings Bowser's kids again (here though, their name is marked with quotation marks). SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 04:05, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * Like with the other GBA games, the manual is actually a scan of the original manual, though. This means that the sentence wouldn't have been changed anyway as it would have required image editing (the text in the pdf is not acxtual text, just part of an image). This is more a clarification that in 2003 the Japanese staff at Nintendo still considered the Koopalings Bowser's children, which is important information.--Mister Wu (talk) 04:44, 22 December 2015 (EST)
 * I added the scans as reference for the "Family Relationship" section, since it was missing and since it was another example of old material reporting the original relationship being published on official Nintendo sites. Should I put the date when you retrieved it as date of retrieval?--Mister Wu (talk) 18:35, 22 December 2015 (EST)
 * Just use the date that the link was placed on the article as the retrival date to keep it simple. The last page of the scan says "(c)1983-2003", so you could also add "2003." as the date between "Nintendo of Japan" and the link. - 19:06, 22 December 2015 (EST)
 * Done!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:41, 22 December 2015 (EST)

The Koopalings have their lines when they win in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam!
This video, this video and this video show that the Koopalings say something when they win in a battle, which is quite interesting as these lines are missing from the quotes (with the exception of Morton that I personally added). Could someone with the game record videos of these lines for all the Koopalings' battles?--Mister Wu (talk) 16:57, 6 December 2015 (EST)
 * Actually, this apparently happens only in the last fight with the Koopalings, as this video and this video show. I wonder if the second fights with the Koopalings are without dialogue as well...--Mister Wu (talk) 21:09, 20 December 2015 (EST)
 * Ok, thanks to this video I found pretty much all the lines and already added them to the characters' pages!--Mister Wu (talk) 22:48, 23 February 2016 (EST)

Some important lines seem to only be in the European versions of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam
It appears that the European versions of Mario & Luigi: paper Jam have lines, very important to understand the relationship between Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings and between the Koopalings and Bowser, that are not present in the Japanese version.

As a first example, here is the only time that Bowser Jr. talks to a Koopaling, Roy:

English version

Russian version

Spanish version

French version

German version

Italian version

In all versions, Bowser Jr. says that he will tell his dad if Roy doesn't give him the book, and the Italian, Spanish and German version even specify my Dad, thus showing that Bowser Jr. explicitly doesn't consider Roy to be his brother.

In the Japanese version, this reference to Bowser is apparently missing:

Japanese version

Bowser Jr. only says that it would be useless to discard the book and that he can get it.

Thus, the lines appear to be much simpler in the Japanese version, while all European versions tend to be consistent and reveal more about Roy and Bowser Jr.'s family relationship.

Another interesting case is the dialogue between Ludwig and Larry at the beginning of the first battle against them:

English version

French version

Italian version

Russian version

German version

Spanish version

In all European versions except the German one, Larry ends the dialogue by calling Ludwig "brother" (in the French version he actually calls him "little brother", while in the German version he calls him "older brother", but not at the end!), and again, this is absent from the Japanese version:

Japanese version

Therefore we have yet another detail consistently present in the European versions that is missing in the Japanese version, and this detail explicitly reveal that Larry is Ludwig's brother (by the way, did any recent Japanese text other than the almost direct copy of SMB3 story in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. confirm that the Koopalings are siblings in the "current" story?).

At this point, my question is: could it be that the European versions are derived from a second version of the script (with the Japanese version having the first version of the script) in which these details were added?--Mister Wu (talk) 15:50, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * The Japanese version of Roy and Junior's conversation actually hints that they're not related. When Junior appears, Roy calls him ぼっちゃん bocchan. Definitely not a word that makes them sound like brothers, or used as an insult.
 * BTW, I'd recommend you to make shorter, simpler section headlines next time, as I don't like how long this one is. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 17:49, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * Agreed, I also shortened the title. Still my main point is that the European versions all seem to follow a common script, slightly different from the Japanese one. The case you cited is another example: the European versions seem to use friendly or mocking words, as if they know well each other. The nearest to the Japanese version is the Spanish one, as "jefecito" is a diminutive form of "jefes" which means "master", "boss", "chief" and so on.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:24, 18 December 2015 (EST)
 * Ok, I made a major change, since the French version of Morton's line is a direct translation of the same line in the Japanese version and since both the English version, the Italian version, the Russian version and the Spanish version do not contain the word "father" like the German version, even though the structure of the line is similar, I'm removing that example until real evidence comes that the word "father" was indeed present in the supposed script used for the European versions. Fortunately, at the same time another very good example came out, so I added that instead.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:41, 25 December 2015 (EST)

As far as I'm aware, only SMB3 material has called the Koopalings siblings in Japan. The Japanese NSMBW site pretty much states in Ludwig's profile that they are 仲間 nakama, or comrades instead, and I guess that's their current portrayal among each other. Had they been siblings in Paper Jam, it would have theoretically helped to figure out their birth order on the basis of older siblings calling their younger by their first name. And speaking of the Encyclopedia, I remember seeing in NSMB2 enemy section the latest Japanese name of the Koopalings being used instead of "Bowser's Minions". SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 16:21, 26 December 2015 (EST)
 * I can confirm that the Koopalings are called 「クッパの手下」in the story and「クッパ七人衆」in the enemies section of NSMB2. But still, the story is becoming more and more intriguing: is Nintendo making regional differences about the Koopalings' relationships, with Japan having these relationships watered down and almost not talked about except in the rerelease of past material, and are we indeed seeing these details added because of this?--Mister Wu (talk) 20:57, 26 December 2015 (EST)

Ok, I wanted to wait for at least the German Let's Play to end the last Koopalings' battle (this should happen in a few days), but since the Paper Jam section of the family relationships was created, I added what came out here with the proper references. To summarize what I've discovered so far: While there is certainly an interesting trend in the European versions, it's the German version that surprises me, in that it doesn't just keep these references to the old depiction of the Koopalings vague and implicit like the other versions and the recent material in general. I am really curious to see the remaining lines in Neo Bowser Castle. Since it's only a single language, however, I would consider it more like an oddity that escaped Nintendo of Europe's control.
 * There are recurring lines in the European versions that are not in the Japanese versions. Among the examples listed, Wendy's last line can be taken as example as well. This is really odd and led me to believe that they might not exactly follow the Japanese script, but a similar script that has some differences, or if they are following the Japanese script, the translators made an agreement on adding some details.
 * The Japanese version, as far as I know, doesn't say anything about the Koopalings' family relationship, it doesn't even suggest that they are siblings.
 * The European versions are much more interesting, in that there is some attempt at making the old depiction return, however, with the exception of Larry saying that Ludwig is his brother (and the French version using that strange frérot, little brother, term), and the Koopalings term returning, all is implicit. Let's consider the Italian version, which can be considered the most "aggressive" of the implicit ones: the Koopalings are known as Bowserotti (Little Bowsers), Morton directly calls Bowser by his name and then corrects himself saying Sua Malignità (His Evilness, an humorous variation of Sua Maestà, His Majesty) and Lemmy even calls upon his Paaaaaapooo (daaaaaad), so one might attempt at connecting the dots, but nothing is really explicitly said. Not even Lemmy says who is supposed to be his dad.
 * The only exception is the German version. First of all, the fact that Ludwig is Larry's großer Bruder (bigger brother) is specified and repeated many times, not just once in the first battle. But, most importantly, Morton explicitly says that Bowser is his Vater (father) and then corrects himself. So, much less is implicit here, there is a more clear attempt at reconciling the old depiction with the current one, down to the detail of the birth order. As if that wasn't enough, this is one of the versions where Bowser Jr. explicitly says meinem Papa (my dad) in front of Roy, showing that he doesn't know that the Koopalings might be his siblings.

What do you think about this? Are there any aspects I am missing or mistakes I am doing? Should the main page be corrected or it is fine as it is now?--Mister Wu (talk) 19:04, 14 January 2016 (EST)
 * Ok, another small detail, in the Japanese version Bowser and the Koopalings are actually referenced together once as ｢クッパ達 」here, but since ｢クッパ」 can also refer to the Koopas in general, I don't know if it's really relevant.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2016 (EST)
 * It basically means "Bowser & Co.", or at least that's how I translate 達 when I come across things like "Mario-kun-tachi" (Mr. Mario & Co.); it's basically just indicating a plurality of folks, no deep implications at all, although it's good to know about it either way, so thanks (and for all the other research too - it's all very interesting). - 10:25, 15 January 2016 (EST)
 * You sure Lemmy is saying "dad" in Italian? Because as far as I checked, you seem to have confused "papà" for "papo", which sounds like a nonsense word. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:02, 15 January 2016 (EST)
 * papo is used in Italian to say papà: you can see it here and here. If I'm not mistaken it's used by little children as a sign to display affection, which is perfect for Lemmy.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:26, 15 January 2016 (EST)

Ok, just a little addition: this video, this video and this video show that the American English version is barely any different from the British English version, and the relevant lines are pretty much unchanged.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:48, 23 February 2016 (EST)

All of the Koopalings' Japanese pronouns and laughs
I have finally managed to find out what are the (current) Japanese first person pronouns the Koopalings use and how they laugh, thanks to Paper Jam. This playlist has currently all the relevant dialogue that shows the details. Some of these traits were first seen in their Japanese SSB3DS trophies, making them accurate in that regard.

Larry: オイラ oira. Rural version of ore, a "tough guy" masculine pronoun. His laugh is アッハッハ ahhahha. Morton: オラ ora. Similar to oira, but more rural. His laugh is ワシャシャ washasha. Wendy: アタシ atashi, informal feminine pronoun. Her laugh is フフフン fufufun. Iggy: ボクチャン boku-chan. Refers to himself seemingly self-endearingly by adding the honorific -chan to the end of boku, a "soft" masculine pronoun. His laugh is アハハ☆ ahaha with a star symbol at the end. Roy: オレ ore. As mentioned above, the "tough guy" masculine pronoun. His laugh is タフフ tafufu. Lemmy: ボク boku. As mentioned above, the "soft" masculine pronoun. Bowser Jr. also uses this. Lemmy's laugh is ケケケ kekeke. Ludwig: ワタシ watashi, a common, pretty much standard pronoun. Has seemingly no distinct laugh of his own; the closest example so far is 「フン!」 (fun!) he exclaims during his first appearance in Paper Jam, meaning he laughs the same way as Wendy.

In addition to these, all the Koopalings (and pretty much everyone else in Bowser's army) expect Wendy use オマエ omae, very informal, familiar and possibly rude version of "you", as a second person pronoun. Wendy uses アンタ anta, said to be similar to omae. Also note that all of these examples are in katakana, instead of hiragana.

Hopefully this was useful to you guys. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 13:38, 27 December 2015 (EST)


 * Interesting, thanks! Makes me wish English had the ability to show someone's personality just from pronoun choice; even the kana choice shows they're deliberately informal/flippant about their use of omae/anta. - 14:10, 27 December 2015 (EST)


 * Thanks, really! I noticed this but I didn't know how to interpret correctly. An additional note is that Larry speaks in a peculiar way, almost always with a long "e" sound at the end, denoted with the「ー」 symbol, if I am not mistaken.


 * One curious thing is that the Euroepan translators frequently translated クッパ軍団 with Koopalings or the equivalent in otther languages (for example, the first blue Toad in the Twinsy Tropics dungeon says that and the Italians translated it with "Bowserotti", direct translation of 「コクッパ」, or in the Neo Bowser Castle dialogue between Paper Bowser and Bowser this term is apparently translated with Koopalings). Since Larry is known as ｢クッパ軍団 の特攻隊長 」 and this was often translated as "leader of the Koopalings" as well, could the Japanese staff at Nintendo have changed the meaning of this term, which previously meant "Koopa Troop"?--Mister Wu (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2015 (EST)
 * Kuppa-gundan literally translates to "Koopa Corps" (or "Koopa Army Group"), so it could work as the whole army or just a subdivision of the overall Koopa Troop, but I'd rather see how it's being used within the Japanese version rather than how the translators are dealing with it. If all the "Kuppa-gundan" situations are only Koopalings, and they're not called another name, then maybe the term's being used for them this time out, but if it can also apply to other folks (any Koopas working with the Koopalings, Bowser Jr., Kamek, etc.), then I'd say it's more a case of the translators taking liberties. My gut feeling is that the translations are off, and Kuppa-gundan is still meant to be the large group of Koopas operating under Bowser, with things like ｢クッパ軍団の特攻隊長」 referencing the overall army and the the Koopalings, just not by name for the latter (i.e. the Koopalings could be the spec ops (特攻) of the Koopa Troop (クッパ軍団) that Larry is in turn the leader of (隊長) - any "the leader of the Koopalings" translations of that particular passage are oversimplifications). But either way, it's speculation and I wouldn't change anything on the mainspace regarding it. -  21:06, 27 December 2015 (EST)
 * Well, I can confirm that their official in-game name remains 「クッパ7人衆 」 as the battle card in this video shows. I wonder where those translations came from...--Mister Wu (talk) 21:07, 1 January 2016 (EST)


 * One more thing: here's what Morton says before the countdown of the cannon in Neo Boser Castle starts:


 * ｢ピーチ城 こわれる.


 * ピーチ城 なくなる.


 * キノコ王国.


 * クッパ様 のもの.


 * ワッシャッシャッ!」


 * Apart from the final laughter (which is a little different from his own typical laughter), is this some kind of clumsy Japanese poem similar to his line in the UK English version?--Mister Wu (talk) 08:52, 28 December 2015 (EST)

Koopaling Name Origins
I recently came upon this and it reveals the naming origins of the Koopalings. Most of them are ones we knew (such as Ludwig), but it also confirms Larry has no real world equivalent. 
 * We're on it. Dayvv's article is still up for grabs.

Kokuppa
In the "Concept and creation", it is said that the Japanese word "Kokuppa" means "Little Koopa". In fact I think this is a mistake: in Japanese "Koopa" is "Nokonoko", "Kuppa" is the name of Bowser. So the translation of "Kokuppa" should not be "Little Bowser"?--Sonic98 (talk) 17:52, 31 December 2015 (EST)
 * Well, the Koopa Troopas are Nokonoko, other Koopas have different names, and "kuppa" can mean Koopas as species. The important part is the "ko" part, that was once represented in the back of the box of SMB3 with the kanji 子 meaning children, so it was more like Bowser's children in that game. After Super Mario Bros. 3, however, only the katakana コ was used, which left freedom of interpretation: either Bowser's children, or Little Bowsers or Little Koopas. As an interesting example, the Italian translation, "Bowserotti", means Little Bowsers and went in disuse with the arrival of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, in the same way as the term "kokuppa" went in disuse in Japan with the arrival of New Super Mario Bros. Wii (I'm talking about new games, of course, as in the Italian version of Super Mario All-Stars - 25th Anniversary Edition they were even called "Bowser's children"!). This is why the return of this term in the Italian version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is relevant.Mister Wu (talk) 22:03, 31 December 2015 (EST)
 * "Koopa" is the official romanization; "Kuppa" is the direct one. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 14:54, 1 January 2016 (EST)

They should be considered Bowsers kids despite Miyamoto's thoughts
Miyamoto was the one who changed them from being bowser's children, to not being bowser's children. He has said specifically that he wants Mario to have as minimal of a story as possible several times (here: http://www.wired.com/2009/06/super-mario-galaxy-2/, here: http://kotaku.com/5964444/miyamoto-convinced-the-people-behind-paper-mario-sticker-star-to-ditch-the-story, and here: http://www.wired.com/2007/12/interview-super/). Its not right for someone who cares so little for story in Mario, to decide whats canon and what isn't. Editorguy117 (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * The Mario universe has no canon, so the actual role and depiction of the characters can change over time to suit best the needs of Nintendo and of the various designers, directors, producers and so on. This is what happened to the Koopalings, as far as the recent games are concerned (and as far as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is concerned as well, since here it is no longer explicitly said that they are Bowser's children, although it is pretty straightforward to come at that conclusion reading the story section of Super Mario Bros. 3). Remember also that we are now referring to an interview made in 2012, and that there are indeed signs that at least in the West Nintendo is now attempting to reconcile the original depiction of the Koopalings (Bowser's children) with the depiction of the New Super Mario Bros. series (Bowser's minions). So far this has been done implicitly, with the Palutena's guidance in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, with a poll in Play Nintendo (Bowser's New Year's resolutions) and with the PAL versions of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. The only exception is the German version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, in which Morton explicitly calls Bowser father and then corrects himself, calling him Master Bowser (and thus confirming that father was referred to Bowser), but as far as I know, it is an isolated case.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:29, 5 February 2016 (EST)
 * Yup, doing so would violate Canoncity. Miyamoto and similar game developers still have free reign over what kinds of traits and relationships their characters have and we can't ignore they say just because we don't like it or "it's not right". Miyamoto's minimalist approach to his characters and story does not mean we can just ignore what he says. There's a difference between minimalism and outright indifference. 19:36, 5 February 2016 (EST)
 * It wouldn't violate Canoncity as that page says "However, this does not mean any source of information is more canonical than the other.". SMB3 and all games/media after it states that they were his kids while Miyamoto says they are not his kids in one small interview. I guess recentness makes something more canon than something else. Maybe we need to update the Canoncity because of this. Since some sources are considered more canon than other sources now.


 * But anyway, you're right that we shouldn't change it, we can't change it because its official. I'm just saying it feels kinda wrong, not denying that it is official though. If the wiki's existence is to capture the story of Mario, it's ironic that we are basing stuff around quotes from the director that wants Mario to have as little story as possible. It's one thing for Mr. Miyamoto to remove story from the mainline Mario games but removing story from RPGs seems wrong. RPGs need story, and even in Mario RPGs the story is being removed by him and will likely stay that way. He told the Mario RPG developers to stop featuring story in their games. That is why Sticker Star, Paper Jam, and Color Splash have no original characters (just generic Toads, Koopas, and Goombas). For someone who cares so little about story to just wave a hand and retcon past story that's been built is kinda wrong. But as wrong as I feel it is, it is what it is unfortunately. Editorguy117 (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * The problem is that we actually don't have recent sources (rereleases of pre-2012 games don't count) that explicitly tell that the Koopalings are Bowser's Children, except for that single line in the German version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, so I'd say that it is better either not to tell anything about the Koopalings' family relationships (like the recent Japanese material is doing), or trying to briefly explain how they evolved over time and then having a thorough section, like this page is doing now.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
 * The policy for conflicting information is that both sets of info are presented as objectively as possible, which this article already does by discussing the old and current stories in the intro, and in a dedicated section further down the page; individual Koopaling articles also mention the original story, and Bowser and Juniors' pages talk about the family stuff too. In the History sections, games that included the familial story (not including potential white-washing of flavour text in modern ports) should talk about the Koopalings as Bowser's kids, while games that depict him as his minions should have the minion story in those sections, like how the sections about older games should refer to Peach as "Toadstool" while newer games just call her "Peach" (of course, just because they should doesn't necessarily mean they currently do, but if any don't, those are oversights). However, just as we use Peach's updated name for non-game specific situations, so to will the writing tend to default to the current "no relation" story when not anchored to a specific game, although I'd advise people to simply write neutrally to avoid edit wars from either side, since it's not generally necessary to talk about them in terms of offspring/employees when describing unrelated subjects like their physical appearances or whatever in the first place; heck, a lot of the time, History sections can be done without needing to draw explicit attention to the nature of the relationship either way. Miyamoto's loathing of plot is well-known around here, and not well-regarded by a lot of the community, but our personal feelings must not colour how we write these articles; feel free to commiserate on the forums, but you won't get anywhere with it here. - 01:57, 24 March 2016 (EDT)

Now this is funny...
When I heard that Super Mario Advance 4 was being introduced in the European Virtual Console, I suspected something really interesting was going to happen in the official game site, as the Super Mario Bros. 3 site still explicitly says that the Koopalings are natural children. And in fact, something funny happened.

This is the text of the site before update:

''It's the best-selling video game of all time. It's acclaimed by gamers the world over as the best Mario game ever made. And now it's portable.''

''Super Mario Bros. 3 was a milestone in gaming upon its original release for the NES in 1990, and still holds the world record for game sales. Now it comes to Game Boy Advance with new features galore. Boasting vastly improved graphics and sounds over the NES original, plus never-before-seen special features, Super Mario Bros. 3: Super Mario Advance 4 will give everyone a chance to relive - or experience anew - a true Miyamoto masterpiece.''

''Strap yourself into the red or green dungarees of Mario or Luigi as they jump, bounce, slide, fly and swim their way across eight enormous worlds. Their mission? To battle the forces of Bowser and his troublemaking kids, who have turned all the local kings into animals.''

''What makes Super Mario Bros. 3 so special? Is it the pixel-perfect controls? Could it be the superb level design, packed with secrets and surprises? Or maybe it's the cool power-ups like the flying Tanooki Suit, sea-swimming Frog Suit, or the whirlwind-summoning Warp Whistle?''

''Super Mario Bros. 3 also includes the original Mario Bros. game for some multiplayer madness. Simply connect to any of the other three Super Mario Advance games and take part in fun frolics for up to four players.''

This is the current text of the site (http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Game-Boy-Advance/Super-Mario-Advance-4-Super-Mario-Bros-3-267398.html):

''Strap yourself into the red or green dungarees of Mario or Luigi as they jump, bounce, slide, fly and swim their way across eight enormous worlds. Their mission? To battle the forces of Bowser and his troublemaking kids, who have turned all the local kings into animals.''

''What makes Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3 so special? Is it the pixel-perfect controls? Could it be the superb level design, packed with secrets and surprises? Or maybe it's the cool power-ups like the flying Tanooki Suit, sea-swimming Frog Suit, or the whirlwind-summoning Warp Whistle?''

Boasting vastly improved graphics and sounds over the NES original, plus never-before-seen special features, Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3 will give everyone a chance to relive - or experience anew - this classic game.

Now, the text has been reorganized and the sentence that states that the Koopalings are Bowser's kids is still there, but one change has been made: the reference to Miyamoto was removed!

Let's not read too much into this, as this is just a fun and likely unintentional detail that anyway clarifies a point already emerged in the reorganization of the Super Mario Bros. 3 page and in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam: in contrast with Nintendo of Japan that even modified the story of Super Mario Bros. 3 in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. so that it is no longer explicitly told that the Koopalings are Bowser's children, since around the moment when the Super Mario Bros. 3 page was updated Nintendo of Europe as a whole isn't always shy to underline that the Koopalings were considered Bowser's children before and even add at least implicit references to this in newer games such as Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:42, 8 March 2016 (EST)


 * Clearly, someone at NoE doesn't agree with the retcon, haha. But in seriousness, it's interesting that the "kid" stuff wasn't part of all the pruned content - we can't speculate on why that's the case in the article itself, of course, but still, nice catch. - 11:10, 9 March 2016 (EST)

Are Iggy and Lemmy still twins?
Thanks to Miyamoto's retcon, the Koopalings we once knew are a mystery and "no longer bowser's kids". Since they had a re-design, and Iggy is now taller, are Iggy and Lemmy still twins? From SMB3 onwards they were pretty clearly twins. Does this still stand? Editorguy117 (talk) 05:10, 29 March 2016 (EDT)
 * As I said in the single characters' pages: Lemmy and Iggy have never been officially stated to be twins in the games, only in the DIC cartoons! In the games they had similar hairstyle, but this doesn't mean that they were twins. By the way, Iggy was since the beginning taller than Lemmy, see the first official illustration and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga sprites!--Mister Wu (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2016 (EDT)
 * Right, I forgot how tall Iggy was! Editorguy117 (talk) 13:31, 29 March 2016 (EDT)

Character infobox or Organization infobox
I started something here about this subject, but It didn't have a lots of talk. I proposed we change the character infobox to the organization infobox for the Koopalings. It's like we're saying that Koopalings refers to a character. Koopalings is not a character, it's a clan of seven siblings (seven different characters). This infobox could be better, since Koopalings is a organization of seven characters. So I wanted to know, should we change it to the organization infobox or keep the character infobox. You can look at my sandbox, Elite Trio also have this problem. -- 21:17, 6 April 2016 (EDT)
 * While from a Wiki organization point of view the other infobox might be better, for the end user your issues are not evident - in the current infobox it's not specified that they are a single character, so it works well. Could you make the proposed new infobox for the Koopalings in your sandbox so I can see if it is better for the end user or not?--Mister Wu (talk) 22:16, 6 April 2016 (EDT)
 * This can definitely work, especially that the organization infobox does not contain an embedded category (otherwise, I would've argued against defining the Koopalings as an organization). I won't have any qualms switching to this infobox since it does better describe the Koopalings, a collective rather than an individual, so it's better on a technicality standpoint. Mister Wu, the proposed template in the sandbox page is better for navigational reasons: you get links to all the Koopalings in a neat spot. Just ditch the caption underneath the image in your sandbox, and it should be fine. For the Elite Trio, should we just put three artworks side by side? 22:22, 6 April 2016 (EDT)
 * My bad, I clicked on the wrong link. I would just avoid the term members and say The seven Koopalings as it's not really clear how the Koopalings are defined in the "current story" (especially since they are apparently considered siblings only in the West, although I still have to translate a few bios on the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.).--Mister Wu (talk) 23:04, 6 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Bazooka Mario, as you suggest, I remove the caption on the infobox in my sandbox. About the Elite Trio, they were only known as that in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team as referred here, so I don't know if I should use artworks for Bowser's Inside Story.-- 23:12, 6 April 2016 (EDT)

The Koopalings' bios from the 30th anniversary books
Now the bios of the Koopalings from the 30th anniversary books have finally been transcribed and are found in the talk pages of the individual Koopalings, I would need help with the translations, especially in the case of Iggy Koopa as his bio from the Super Mario Memorial Book seems to contain a definition of the Koopalings according to the "current" story. After the translations have been checked, I think I would add the bios from the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. characters' pages and from the Super Mario Memorial Book to the main pages, as the bios from the enemies' section mainly describe their attacks, which is already done in the main pages.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:42, 15 April 2016 (EDT)

An interesting sketch
I just found on Supper Mario Broth this sketch that I added to the gallery:



From the Japanese text it seems that it was made by Kotabe and Tezuka, which would be interesting:

「当初のクッパはまったくまとまりのない絵てした. このスケッチのパージョンになるまてには小田部、手塚両氏との共同作業が続きました. 」

I am not sure, however, that this is a correct transcription. Could someone help me with the transcription and the translation?--Mister Wu (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2016 (EDT)

Defeated in SMW
In Super mario world, What happens to Ludwig Koopa, such as Roy and morton? Their sprites when are defeated becomes smaller and spin until the sprite turns into cloud... Do that mean They are hurted on the shell and becomes far and bad landing? --109.31.71.43 06:13, 26 July 2016 (EDT)

Stop consistently referring to the Koopalings with their full names
I've noticed that the wiki still refers to the Koopalings by their full names, eg Larry Koopa rather than simply Larry. However, I don't see why this is still the case as these names are not ever in use anymore. After doing a little research I've found that only a few games ever actually use these names. Going over all of their appearances: SMB3 and SMW do use their full names in manuals; Yoshi's Safari does not seem to name them anywhere in the game; Hotel Mario already seems to have dropped their ‘Koopa’ part from their names, as the hotels are named after simply their first names (eg Larry's Chillton Hotel, rather than Larry Koopa's Chillton Hotel); Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga only refers to them by their first names in the battle screen; NSMBW and NSMB2 only use their first names in the manual (at least in the Dutch manuals, though I can't find anything about others); New Super Mario Bros. U also only uses their first names in their personal Castle stages at the end of each world. The Koopalings appearing as playable in Super Smash Bros, Mario Kart 8, and Mario & Sonic Rio are also only referred to by their first names on the selection screen and result screens. Even if their surnames may still be considered canon, the article for Princess Peach is also only simply called Princess Peach rather than Princess Peach Toadstool, because the surname is not in use anymore even though it still exists.

Proposer: Deadline: September 10th, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal. Also, Smash should not be considered when we decide what articles on the wiki should be named.
 * 3) Qyzxf is completely right; while their full names are significant and serve their purpose, the last time the Koopalings were ever referred to with them in any original game material (excluding certain re-releases of their first two appearances and an easter egg exclusive to Super Smash Bros. for Wii U) was 1991. Throughout by and far the clear majority of their existence, they're only listed under their first names; therefore, these names should be used as their articles. Their full names obviously do and will have a place, but they can just be delegated to their character infoboxes just like Bowser Koopa and Peach Toadstool (and occasionally Mario Mario and Luigi Mario) before them. The only other thing is that either Roy will have to be moved to "Roy (Koopaling)" (awkward) or the existing Roy article needs to move to "Roy (disambiguation)", otherwise it seems like an easy action... Support.

Oppose

 * 1) For this simple reason I oppose. Their full names are still in use, even if not commonly.
 * 2) – Per Mister Wu. The full names are still in use within contemporary games, unlike "Princess Peach Toadstool" (which hasn't been used for a long time).
 * 3) Per both! We need full names for the Koopalings! People has full names as well. For example: The full name for Bowser's current voice actor, Kenny James is Kenneth William James. That is why I'm keeping it!
 * 4) - Per Mister Wu.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) From the official New Super Mario Bros. U website: Ludwig Von Koopa, just who is your barber!? Per all!
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) I don't see anything wrong with keeping their full names. They really haven't been neglected that much over time. Per all.
 * 11) I believe this conversation within this talk page sums up my position, but I say that this proposal still makes a fairly interesting point. Regardless, I stand by the points in that conversation (the names can possibly be shortened to save space and repetition rather than make a point; removing the full names would remove the pop culture reference; and the names are very well established compared to the Princess Peach Toadstool or Mario Mario examples that are used for a comparison).
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per all.
 * 14) Per all.
 * 15) Per all.

Comments
@3D Player: Any particular reason we shouldn't consider Smash when it comes to names. Also @AfternoonLight, you are aware that the redirect to Kenny James of his full name was deleted?

@Mister Wu: Their full names not being "common" is precisely why the article titles should change to reflect it, as dictated by naming policy. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:28, 28 August 2016 (EDT)

I realise that their names are still more in use than Toadstool for Peach, but in the vast majority of games they are not used anymore. Of course there are exceptions but I think it's reasonable to refer to them as only their first name as that is the way Nintendo does it too more often. I just think we should do it how nintendo does it. As LinkTheLefty said, their names would still be used in their infobox, I just think it's strange that their last names are still used all over the wiki while the games don't use them anymore. Also, I think that generally on the wiki, the more common and recent names normally take precedence over old and less frequently used names, I don't see why this should be an exception.
 * The problem is, from what I'm seeing the names in the infoboxes are official but practically used a few times at most and then abandoned. For example Bowser's name being Bowser Koopa is indirectly acknowledged because the Bowser Trike is a thing in Japan, where Bowser is known as Koopa, but if I'm not mistaken the full name was barely used, if at all. Similarly, Peach and Toadstool were connected at the beginning of the N64 era, but then Peach was used instead. Here, the names are still used in at least a recent game (SSB4), a guide (the PRIMA guide for NSMBW) and an official site (the North American Site of NSMBU), so there is still a continuity, it's not like the names of the Koopalings were dropped when they were reintroduced in NSMBW.


 * An extreme example, related to the Koopalings, of why I would be cautious in droppping names apparently no longer in use is the case of the Italian name Bowserotti, direct translation of a Japanese term in disuse. In 2015 it might have been reasonable to drop it because Scagnozzi di Bowser was being used since 2009 in the new games, with the only exception of the port of Super Mario All Stars for the Wii that, well, was a port of an older game. Ironically, at the end of 2015 Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam came and in it the name Bowserotti was used again, but not only that, that term came in full force again, being used even in the announcement of the Mario Mash-Up Pack for Minecraft and in Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games, while Scagnozzi di Bowser is being used only in Paper Mario: Color Splash.


 * Maybe Nintendo will eventually drop the full names, as it is apparently dropping it in most games, but at this moment it is a bit early to say that, in my opinion.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2016 (EDT)


 * Definitely, they haven't been dropped, I can see that. My main point is that I think we should go with the name that is the most used. Again, the names would still be given on the article, but if alomst every game refers to them as just their first name, then I don't see why we have to keep saying their entire names every time. I think most people who opposed mostly only did because of the Super Smash Bros U appearance of the name, and one because a guide gives the full name, but as I stated the last names are unused more often than not. I don't think a few appearances of the names are enough to keep it if just their first names are used much more.
 * Two points to keep in mind: first of all, Ludwig von Koopa and Morton Koopa Jr. needs 16 characters to be written, while Wendy O. Koopa requires 14 characters, so it's impractical - maybe even impossible - to have the full names in most games (especially the 3DS ones). Secondly, the Japanese names have always been the shortened ones - the full names were never introduced in Japan -, so a quick translation from Japanese might not use the full names just for this reason.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:23, 29 August 2016 (EDT)
 * It should be emphasized that removing full names from the article titles doesn't necessarily mean that the wiki suddenly doesn't recognize them: it's mainly following naming protocol. The Koopalings are currently an exception to this, not the rule. On the occasions that the full names do get referenced, it's more often than not supplemental rather than direct game material (although for clarification, Super Smash Bros. Palutena's Guidance easter egg only works in the Wii U version [SSB5?], not Nintendo 3DS version [SSB4]). Character constraints might be a fair observation, but when game texts are reaching a point that we're also getting names like "Shiny Paper Fire Piranha Plant" out of them, I don't think it really holds up much anymore... Other ways this may be treated besides the infobox would be to easily introduce it in the beginning paragraph and/or give a special mention when describing name origin or history, for instance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:42, 29 August 2016 (EDT)
 * I noticed a thing, though. Here's the actual part of trhe policy you are citing:




 * The Super Mario Wiki is an English language wiki, so the name of an article should correspond to the most commonly used English name of the subject, which, given our user and visitor demographics, means the North American name.




 * Technically talking, if we consider the whole sentence and not just the first part, you can see that all North American names would be correct, so the likely reason why Mario Mario, Luigi mario and Peach Toadstool were dropped is not that they were violating this policy - the probable reason is that they weren't simply no longer used since the '90s even by NOA and therefore it seemed reasonable to change them. It wasn't necessarily a strict rule in place. Here, you can see that the full names are still used, and there's an additional reason why the Koopalings' case is different: Peach, Mario, Luigi and Bowser had a Japanese name before having a North American name, in the case of the Koopalings, the contrary happened: the shortened Japanese names came from the full North American names, that are a reference to musicians and composers with the only possible exception of Larry Koopa and thus make sense only when considered in the full version.--Mister Wu (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2016 (EDT)

What led to state that 「クッパ」 is exclusively the name of Bowser?
I realized that an edit with important implications was made on the page, saying that 「クッパ」 is used only to refer to Bowser and not to a nonspecific Koopa species (what we call the Koopas). I would like to know what discovery or observation led to this important edit, that might have relevant implications, such as showing that the Italian term Bowserotti, that returned in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, is indeed a translation of 「コクッパ」 that uses the Western name of Bowser properly, but most importantly, showing that the current name of the Koopalings in Japan, 「クッパ7人衆」, still indicates that they are Bowsers instead of just Bowser's minions like the previosuly used term, 「クッパの手下」.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:50, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * "Koopa" has referred to both the clan and the king since day one, so it's a slight misconception. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:35, 30 September 2016 (EDT)
 * By the way, this is the famous sentence that led to this 「クッパ」 being also the Koopas as reported in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (twice!):




 * 強力な魔法を操る大ガメクッパの一族が侵略して来ました.




 * There is that 「の」 that is troubling me much, as it might indeed lead to think that 「クッパ」 is just Bowser even in this sentence, is this the same sentence of the original manual or Encyclopedia revisionism is in act even here? Am I reading too much in that 「の「? (P.S. I'm not trying to compare myself to a professional translator, I just want to find out what particular detail, reinterpreted differently, might have led to this edit - essentially, I suspect that 「大ガメクッパの一族」 was reinterpreted as clan of the large turtle Bowser)--Mister Wu (talk) 18:57, 30 September 2016 (EDT)
 * I looked at the SMB3 Virtual Console PDF and searched クッパの. It shows up three times in the document: Once in referring to the fortress, once in referring to the castle and once in referring to the anchor. I'm not sure how that reflects the PDF or the Encyclopedia compared to the original or the Super Mario Advance 4 versions. --Thatguy62 (talk) 21:39, 30 September 2016 (EDT)
 * From the very little I know, 「の」 can be considered similar to our of, and is usually positioned after the name it refers to, so 「クッパの」 means very often of Bowser, it is thus to be expected to found such term in the manual, the problem here is that line above of the SMB manual appears to be the one that led many people to consider 「クッパ」 as also meaning Koopas (at least so it was said in the part that was then removed in the edit), so I wonder if the editor actually found out that indeed, that part could have a different meaning and thus there was no longer evidence that 「クッパ」 is also used to refer to the nonspecific Koopas (tipically, in Japan 「力メ族」, meaning Turtle Tribe, is used instead to refer to the nonspecific Koopas, as you can see in this Japanese bio of Iggy), leading to the edit that has important implications.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:50, 30 September 2016 (EDT)
 * I've seen cases where "AのB" is interpreted as "A, the B"...  23:29, 6 October 2016 (EDT)

It is the same in the manual and the Encyclopedia, you can find the Japanese manual PDF in the Legends of Localization site. My current intepretation is that the literal translation on that site above is inaccurate. With の, that bit about Bowser and his tribe would be "Great Turtle Bowser's tribe" instead of "the Koopa, a tribe of large turtles". If my intepretation is true, we have assumed the usage of クッパ wrong; it has always referred to a single person, not a tribe. Even so, there is the fact that Bowser's army is nowadays called クッパ軍団 in Japan, so クッパ as the name of the tribe in current games is obsolete. As for クッパ7人衆... well, we translate it as "Team of 7 Bowsers", and it seems to be best we have. But there's a bit in the Japanese version of Paper Jam where Bowser refers to the Koopalings as 「あいつら... 7人衆」, which would be near-literally "Those... seven". Thus I speculate they are called クッパ7人衆 because of their connection to Bowser, not because they are Bowsers. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 05:57, 1 October 2016 (EDT)
 * Hold up, I just noticed the edit in question is mine. I may have taken out the bit about クッパ referring to Koopa Troop because I thought of it as irrelevant, but what I've said here actually justifies it: 「大ガメクッパの一族」 is about Koopa's tribe, not about the tribe named Koopa. Same manual story also mentions カメ一族 "the Turtle Tribe". クッパ軍団 "Koopa Corps" came later, I don't know when, but it wasn't in the Japanese SMB3 manual, unlike カメ一族. It's also in the Encyclopedia, so there's no revisionism involved there. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 07:32, 1 October 2016 (EDT)

reclassified?
I'm not entirely sure but I think I recall, one of the Koopalings call Bowser their father in Color Splash. Personally I don't believe I ever read anything stating their his kids, I could just tell they were his kids, They do seem quite similar to Bowser. Hmmmm, Perhaps it's their shells, has anybody else noticed that those who appear to be related to Bowser all have spiky shells?Pikmin theories (talk) 23:21, 11 October 2016 (EDT)
 * I suggest you to read the appropriate section. They were created as Bowser's children, and presented as such in the Japanese SMB3 manual (and of course in the Western translations too). They were portrayed as such until Super Smash Bros. Brawl and New Super Mario Bros. Wii, probably because Bowser Jr. took their role as Bowser's child. Since then, Japanese material related to the new games never mentioned the original relationship again, and even other Japanese material slowly started not mentioning it, to the point that the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. contains an incorrect story of SMB3 not to report it. In the West, more references to the original relationship were made, especially in Europe, with the UK site of SMB3 still considering them Bowser's offspring and the German version of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam even having a line of Morton in which he calls Bowser father and then correct himself. I think you should try to contextualize this line from Color Splash better (i.e. remember and report who is the Koopaling saying this and when, and also try pointing at a video, so I can see if the line is from the UK version), as the North American version surely didn't have the Koopalings calling Bowser father in their main lines of dialogue (the ones triggered during a normal flow of the battles).--Mister Wu (talk) 23:36, 11 October 2016 (EDT)


 * First off I DID read that section before writing this, second it wasn't during a battle, and third I'm in US so it's the North Americian version, I believe it was one of the first few Koopalings battled, I'm pretty sure it was before Wendy, it might have been Morton, or I could've imagined it, (although Morton does talk funny in this game) If it was Morton I think it might have been when Huey introduced themselves to him, I think it was FATHER BOWSER or something like that, but if it's not Morton then either I imagined it or it was one of the others before Wendy, so that narrows it down a bit.Pikmin theories (talk) 19:31, 12 October 2016 (EDT)


 * I don't have the game, but from what I see, Morton merely says "Master" and doesn't namedrop Bowser, Wendy calls him "Mister Bowser" and Iggy doesn't mention Bowser by name either, judging from his quotes section. That leaves Ludwig and he only refers to him as "Lord Bowser". --Thatguy62 (talk) 20:28, 12 October 2016 (EDT)
 * Sorry, I misread what you stated. While all members of Bowser's species have spiky shells, Bowser's species is actually distinguished from the other species of Koopas by an incomplete shell, that leaves belly plates disconnected from the rear shell. The lines outside the battles,as well as the lines when you battle the Koopalings in the right way have been transcribed and you can find them in the individual Koopalings' pages. They don't mention Father Bowser. There are however additional lines when you do something wrong (e.g.: you waste the Thing Card needed to win the battle) and all of them haven't been found yet. I'm wondering if you incurred in one of them.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2016 (EDT)
 * Funnily enough, in the Japanese version, the term used by Morton is 「おかた」 which doesn't seem to mean master, but rather this gentleman. Probably the Japanese version doesn't want to reveal anything before the cutscene in which Bowser is introduced. I will see what are the other terms used to refer to Bowser (although I expect them to be like they are in the English version)--Mister Wu (talk) 22:37, 13 October 2016 (EDT)
 * Here you an see how Ludwig, Wendy, Larry and Roy call Bowser in the Japanese version. The term used is pretty much always 「クッパ様」, which in English sounds like Master Bowser, it's surprising to see how the Treehouse team translated this term in various different ways depending on the character. Still, as expected, they don't call Bowser father in the Japanese version as well.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:03, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

More Japanese material, beside Super Mario Bros. 3, that showed that the koopalings were Bowser's children
I just found this blog entry that has more Japanese material, beside that related to Super Mario Bros. 3, that showed that the Koopalings were considered Bowser's children, going as far as Super Smash Bros. Melee. I think we should now cover this, as it shows it was indeed since Super Smash Bros. Brawl that the retcon started to be formalized, not before.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2016 (EDT)
 * I actually once found this blog myself, but never decided to post it... That said, the SMW Koopaling pic appears to be from the early phases of SMW development. I base it on the fact in that picture they still have the name コクッパ7兄弟 and are called Bowser's kids, but then they became コクッパ7人衆 and the familial references to Bowser were omitted. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:10, 26 October 2016 (EDT)