Talk:Boss Bass

From the article: "Boss Bass' are possibly related to the identical-looking Big Bertha." Identical-looking and possibly related? Is there any reason why we have two articles for two(?) things that look identical? 15:25, 27 May 2008 (EDT)


 * They're kinda differnt. Boss Basses are found above water and leap whereas Big Berthas swim underwater. I think they do kind of attack in the same ways (eating Mario), though, so maybe you could say terrain is the only thing that differs them.

When comparing: "A Boss Bass is a huge fish found in Super Mario Bros. 3. They swim on the surface of the water trying" to "The Big Berthas are a sub-species of Cheep-Cheep that live deep in the sea." That is an obvious difference. Big Berthas also spit out Baby Cheeps, notably, which Boss Basses don't. I think their differences should be stated in the article somewhere. - 16:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Okay. I basically know nothing about these enemies, I just became skeptical when reading that they look identical and yet are different species. 16:09, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * They technically are the same (full-grown Cheep-Cheep), but with different roles - Big Bertha nest in safe quarters under the sea to mother their young, and Boss Bass are their male counterparts that are active hunters. This is confirmed with their Japanese names - Kyodai Pukupuku ♀ and Kyodai Pukupuku ♂. LinkTheLefty 15:44, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

The illustration of Mario getting attacked by a Boss Bass...
... Is that a Boss Bass? Since there is a Baby Cheep in that picture also, which are only found near their mothers. LinkTheLefty 15:46, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
 * The image is probably a Big Bertha.


 * It's all right, since the Big Bertha is a female Boss Bass.

Japanese Name
I noticed that Big Bertha and Boss Bass's Japanese names are listed as Kyodai Pukupuku ♀ and Kyodai Pukupuku ♂. However, the only name I can find on Japanese websites is 巨大プクプク (kyodai pukupuku); no gender icon after it. Wikipedia apparently refers to the underwater version as "子連れ巨大プクプク", but no other sites use that name. Does anyone know where their nameｓ are listed with any such icon?--vellidragon 18:54, 15 February 2010 (EST)


 * Maybe the icon was just added so people wouldn't get confused, I mean, you can't quite READ that icon.
 * Well, the question I'm asking is where the name is officially listed with that icon though, because if there are no official sources that put a gender icon after the name, we can't do that on the Wiki either, no matter whether or not it can be read.--vellidragon 11:32, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
 * This brings up a question: are Big Bertha and Boss Bass the same enemy?
 * Well, that was the question I was also trying to find the answer to by asking this. If no official source uses a gender icon or any other name difference, they're probably meant to be the same enemy in a slightly different environment. If they do officially have that gender icon as part of their name though, they probably shouldn't be viewed as the same.--vellidragon 09:10, 28 April 2010 (EDT)
 * I know this is old, but looking back, I think the source was this. It's not necessarily reliable, though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:30, 25 January 2015 (EST)

Merge Boss Bass with Big Bertha
What actual differences do these have? They have the same Japanese name, look exactly the same with literally no differences whatsoever (even having the same sprite in their original appearance), their only major differences are behavior and gender, and that's not even consistent anymore. At this point it's basically "Big Berthas always spit Baby Cheeps, except when they don't, and Boss Bass are always male, except when they aren't", and it's a confusing, jumbled mess, just look at how many examples aren't even sure which is which. Different colored Koopa Troopas have more differences than them, as do Super Mario Bros. 2 Pokeys compared to modern ones, but those aren't considered seperate species by most people.

Proposer: Deadline: April 6, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per my reasons stated above.
 * 2) In Super Mario Sunshine, there are two (well, three) kinds of Cheep Cheeps that have different behaviors; the orange ones and the fiery ones jump and swim, while the pink ones try to drag Mario further to the depths. They are all known as Cheep Cheeps without any unique words or alternative letters to make them different species. In Japan, this is the same with Boss Bass and Big Bertha, but the English SMB3 guide gave them unique names, and that's very likely unreliable localization. So really, how would merging these two be any different from having two enemies with different behavior (and appearance) on the same article when they are universally considered the same enemies?
 * 3) As seen in the comments, it can be concluded with current knowledge that they are intended to be the same enemy species. We definitely know (not just from hearsay, but some physical scans to back this up) that the original Japanese guides do not distinguish between the two, and there are multiple licensed Japanese guidebook publications versus one single Nintendo Power player's guide. The mouth-brooding variant of the enemy has only directly appeared in Super Mario Bros. 3, and their last mention so far (and it seems only in-game reference) was in Super Paper Mario; therefore, it makes sense to place them in the same article and consider it Boss Bass unless specifically named otherwise. As for the Nintendo Comics System appearance of "Big Bertha" - it can be observed that she is an individual character named Bertha, so it makes the most sense to give her a separate "Bertha (Nintendo Comics System)" page to compensate.
 * 4) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) They have maybe different gender, but their attack are different, so I oppose to this.
 * 2) The fact that both Boss Bass and Big Bertha appear in the SAME GAME to me is a good enough reason to keep them split.
 * 3) While this proposal makes more sense than the other merge proposals, SuperYoshiBros makes a good point- they would obviously be different characters if they both appear in the same game. And yes, their attack pattern is different.
 * 4) Per all
 * 5) Different Attack Pattern warrents a seperate page. Stated to be different warrants a seperate page. Appeared seperately in same game with different official name warrants seperate page. Done, I'm out.
 * 6) - Like I said in the comments, the SMB3 and comic appearances of Big Bertha should be kept separate, but all the ambiguous stuff about big, non-mouth-brooding fish should go to Boss Bass (including the SM64DS appearance unless we can verify the "Big Bertha" name, but I doubt we will), and the "or possibly Big Bertha" stuff should be scrubbed from the wiki.
 * 7) Per Walkazo.
 * 8) That is a per all!
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
We've tried this before with Cheep Chomp and Bubba (give it a read if you'd like), and I agree that they're basically the same thing. The difference between Boss Bass and Big Bertha is extremely similar in concept to meek underwater Cheep Cheep and aggressive leaping Cheep Cheep, and the exact appearances of the two aren't even that certain anyway (just look in the Talk Pages and general history). However, there are difficulties reaching a consensus on a topic such as this; for example, if we were to limit a merge to just Boss Bass and Big Bertha, then which name would be used for the resulting article (which is why I proposed it all under the modern, gender-inclusive "Cheep Chomp" banner)? You've got to keep in mind how this affects the surrounding articles, wiki readership, etc. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:15, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * I'd say to go with the most recent name, which appears to be Boss Bass. Binarystep (talk) 02:31, 23 March 2015 (EDT)

LudwigVon, Cheep Cheeps attack differently depending on whether you're underwater (in which case they swim back and forth) or near the water (in which case they jump out). Should those be split too? And another thing, the differences that DID exist don't anymore, as shown by how almost every post-SMB3 example has no idea which is which. Binarystep (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * The attack is important as two kind of enemies who look identical appear in the same games.-- 18:53, 23 March 2015 (EDT)

SuperYoshiBros, the translators aren't perfect, they can make mistakes or inconsistencies, that's happened before. The thing is, there's no benefit to keeping them seperate, considering that pretty much every post-SMB3 example starts with "A Boss Bass (or maybe a Big Bertha)...", proving there aren't any real differences at this point. Binarystep (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * But why would two enemies with very different behaviors both appearing in the same game having different names be a translation mistake? The point is they were different at one point and should be treated as such. -- 18:21, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * And Galoombas were originally the same as Goombas, does that mean they are? Super Mario Bros. 3 is an old game, we should use current knowledge instead of a 25 year old manual. Binarystep (talk) 18:59, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * The fact that they only have obviously different behavior -once- is an indication that it's an outdated benchmark. Even with the help of an accompanying guide to deem which one it is for a particular appearance, their identities are blatantly all over the place. We know this is at the mere whim of the localizers at the time, which is probably part of the reason they were "replaced" by Bubba and Cheep Chomp. Also, the widespread idea that Big Bertha are all female and Boss Bass are exclusively male isn't clearly evident in the Nintendo Power guide they were originally named, and most certainly doesn't apply in other appearances (that being the presence of Baby Cheep - which would be like, say, separating the SMRPG Lakitu due to it throwing Spikeys rather than Spinys). If the translators had the thought to do the same thing to Cheep Cheep (or were around) in the first game and treated them as "different at one point", we might've had a similar disagreement on whether Cheep-Cheeps and "Leap-Leaps" are the same thing. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:12, 23 March 2015 (EDT)
 * "Current knowledge"? Boss Bass and Big Bertha being one and the same was, as far as I know, never confirmed by Nintendo. Official game manual > speculation. -- 17:37, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * They were officially confirmed as the same enemy if the Japanese guides are any indication. Binarystep (talk) 16:07, 30 March 2015 (EDT)

I'd like it if the opposers would answer some questions for me, namely:


 * How are these seperate enemies despite only being different species in ONE game, and only according to the English localization, which has been incorrect several times in the past?
 * How is a translation from 25 years ago still relevant even though it was inconsistent with several names already (see: Kuribo's/Goomba's Shoe)?
 * How are these seperate enemies despite not having ANY differences in their recent appearances (like in Super Mario 64 DS where Big Berthas are actively aggressive and don't spit out Baby Cheeps, or in Yoshi's Island DS where a female Boss Bass appears)?
 * How are these seperate enemies when every post-SMB3 example doesn't even know which is which, and starts with phrases like "A Big Bertha (or maybe a Boss Bass) appears in [game]"?
 * How does a different attack pattern mean anything considering that REGULAR Cheep Cheeps have differing attack patterns depending on whether you're near or in the water (being more aggressive and jumping out and being more passive and swimming around, respectively (which is almost exactly like Big Berthas/Boss Bass))?

Binarystep (talk) 03:54, 24 March 2015 (EDT)
 * About the translation 25 years old, Do Nintendo had recently confirmed that Bass Boss and Big Bertha are the same enemy? I don't think. So about this, only an official translation about 25 years old has importance. If we merge this, it will go about speculations and it 's against the policy of the wiki.-- 15:33, 24 March 2015 (EDT)
 * The way I see it, if we already know for a fact that this is an invention of the guide, and the articles are somewhat geared towards the "if in doubt, it's Boss Bass" format in the first place, then there's no reason to pretend otherwise. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2015 (EDT)


 * In a way, Nintendo kind of has confirmed them to be the same enemy, considering they now have no differences at all in pretty much every post-SMB3 game. Binarystep (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2015 (EDT)


 * What post-SMB3 appearances? In all honesty, I'm pretty skeptical that the SM64DS fish was actually named "Big Bertha" at all. If you look through our page's history, it looks more like broken telephone and speculation: originally, SM64DS wasn't mentioned on the page, then some random guy added it (and that was copypasta'd to the Bubba page a few days later), then later a devil's advocate flipped it around for some reason - without updating the game to the original SM64, making it backwards, so someone changed it back and expanded it at the same time. Like, for that name, srsly (some other places call them Boss Bass instead, fyi, and on the talk page, someone says the original N64 appearance's "official guide" calls it "Big Bertha", not Bubba, and other random internet sources call the DS one Bubba too, and our other call for the DS name verification was never answered at all, and it's all. so. mixed. up). Anyway, as LTL said, usually the stance is a reasonable "if in doubt, it's Boss Bass", and cleaning up the pages to reflect that thoroughly would be for the best answer, I feel - including moving over the SMBSS appearance (and the SM64DS appearance if we can't verify the name), leaving only the specifically "Bertha" appearances here. And yes, that is plural, even without SM64DS, since the Nintendo Comics System published by Valiant also used the Big Bertha name for its "Love Flounders" and "Fins and Roses" comics - for a female fish depicted with a little fish in her mouth, same as SMB3. Adhering to the "if in doubt, it's [the more recently used name]" stance would mean that most of the info's centralized, but without compromising the original SMB3 separation. Then we just have to worry about the potential name changes for the non-mouth-brooding recurring enemy fish(es)... -  16:53, 24 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Nice on tracing Big Bertha/Bubba, even though it's a bit headache-inducing... With the Nintendo Comics System, though, I think that goes back to the basic "character/species" segregation, since she's treated as a recurring character there, and is just called Bertha (not Big Bertha, although there's a small "Little Bertha" reference). From a glance, the Comics System brand seems to have been unaffiliated with Nintendo Power, so they probably resorted to official character or strategy guides as reference, which is why there's also a giant mouth-brooding fish called Bertha to tie-in to SMB3. I don't think it's necessarily strong material in favor of Big Bertha as a whole - if anything, there should be a separate "Bertha (Nintendo Comics System)" page. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:10, 24 March 2015 (EDT)

@Binarystep - Sorry, but I'm redacting my vote for now because it occurred to me there's something important the support side is forgetting - that we're relying on unofficial online sources to be 100% accurate. As one of the main platformers, SMB3 doesn't have enemy names in-game (so foreign playthrough videos certainly wouldn't be of help), and while at least the Japanese manual should be easy to come across (hah), it's a lot like ours and doesn't have an entry for Boss Bass/Big Bertha. We unfortunately have to work on blind assumption that the Daijiten is infallible, but it was brought to my attention not too long ago that it's been known to be wrong in the past. Without an official Japanese strategy guide in our hands, we don't know without a final doubt that they weren't given separate entries, and it seems "they have the same Japanese names" is the biggest argument you use. That's a lot easier for RPG/spinoff titles to reference, but a definitive source on this one is much more obscure. In fact, for a while we've had Big Bertha as Kyodai Pukupuku ♀ and Boss Bass as Kyodai Pukupuku ♂ because that's just how another source allegedly reported the names. There's enough uncertainty with (Big) Bertha/Boss Bass/Bubba/(Mega) Cheep Chomp/etc. as it is - I'm starting to think that the only way to properly counter a localized player's guide is with an unlocalized player's guide. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Here, I found one on Ebay. With a picture of Boss Bass and its Japanese name. This will surely help us to figure out if Big Bertha has the same Japanese name as well. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 17:36, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * And here's another, different guide. Featuring Big Bertha as 巨大プクプク. So its Japanese name is indeed the same as Boss Bass'.
 * Really, these Japanese guides seem to be all over for sale on Ebay. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 17:49, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Well, that was quick. Good job... Now, there's at least two original guides against one (give or take the Nintendo Comics System, maybe). I believe that's sufficient proof to show they're intended to be the same enemy, so putting back my support. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:40, 25 March 2015 (EDT)

So, a few questions for the opposers: Why are we using the English guide as proof they're two seperate species, despite old English guides containing information that isn't true anymore. For instance, if we went with what the original SMB manual said, the Brick Block page wouldn't start with this:
 * A Brick Block, sometimes simply known as a Brick, is a block that has made an appearance in nearly every Mario platformer to date. As its name implies, Brick Blocks are blocks made of bricks.

It'd start with this:
 * A Brick Block, sometimes simply known as a Brick, is an object that has made an appearance in nearly every Mario platformer to date. Contrary to their name, Brick Blocks are not actually bricks, being Toads Bowser cast a spell on.

And while someone may say "They haven't been confirmed to be the same", that brings me to my next point, so far, two Japanese guides have been found saying they're the same, as opposed to one English localization, and a comic likely based on said localization. Next question, why are we considering them different species when their only differences (Boss Bass always being male, Big Berthas spitting out Baby Cheeps) haven't appeared in more recent games according to the article? Final question, how do their behavioral differences (Boss Bass being more aggressive and jumping out of the water, Big Berthas swimming around aimlessly) mean anything considering regular Cheep Cheeps do the same thing? Binarystep (talk) 06:27, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * "information that isn't true anymore" Oh really? Has Nintendo said ANYTHING on Boss Bass/Big Bertha at all since the SMB3 guide? No, they haven't. The information in the SMB3 guide being false is nothing but speculation since Nintendo hasn't said anything on the matter since then. -- 11:01, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * This wiki operates on the logic that "everything is canon", so on that level, the information in two licensed guides over one does not technically make it more "true" than the other. On the other hand, if there are contradictory differences between the original language and official translation, the former is given deference in usual cases. The Brick Block example isn't the best one since it's also in the Japanese version, but saying that some Toads turned into horsetail plants rather than "horse-hair" plants or that Cheep Cheep don't in fact grow wings would be seen as basic corrections since they can be explained as mistranslations. Another thing is that the Japanese SMB3 has existed nearly two years before the English one, so not only is the intent clear here, but their separation almost goes beyond localization and into revisionist territory. In the end, nostalgia is a tough opponent. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:45, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Don't forget that translators sometimes just flat-out make things up. Just look at the SMB manual's "Mushroom King". Binarystep (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2015 (EDT)

Something I found.
It's still too early to start another proposal, but I find it interesting that the same guides that consider Big Berthas and Boss Bass different enemies also list different colored Koopa Troopas as different enemies, along with Piranha Plants and "Hanging Piranha Plants", and we don't consider those different. Binarystep (talk) 00:34, 23 April 2015 (EDT)
 * One of those guides also lists Buzzy Beetles and Para-Beetles, Bloopers and Blooper Nannies, Hammer Bros. and Sledge Bros., Fire Chomps and Chain Chomps, and so on and so forth, and we consider all of them separate. What's your point?
 * Consider that both changing "Kyodai Pukupuku" to "Boss Bass" and "Big Bertha" despite looking exactly the same is pretty much no different than changing "Pakkun Flower" to "Piranha Plant" and "Hanging Piranha Plant". Especially when you factor in that the behavioral differences between Boss Bass/Big Bertha are obviously mirroring the behavioral differences of above-ground/underwater Cheep Cheeps (jumping out of the water aggressively versus swimming around passively), it starts to look more and more like an inconsistent localization. We actually have proof of, say, Fire Chomps and Chain Chomps being different species, but our only proof of Boss Bass/Big Bertha being different is this one translation, which made other dubious choices in the same section. And before the comic's brought up, it's pretty obviously using this localization as the source for its names, so it doesn't really count as proof one way or the other. Binarystep (talk) 01:31, 23 April 2015 (EDT)
 * You're distancing yourself from the original point. I was just pointing out the fallacy.
 * Poor wording isn't a fallacy, and I'm not distancing myself from the original point, I'm clarifying it. Binarystep (talk) 01:40, 23 April 2015 (EDT)

Merge Boss Bass with Big Bertha v2
And here we go again. As I've said before, Big Berthas and Boss Bass are clearly intended to be the same, they have the same Japanese name and appearance, and our only proof they're different is one old guide (which also differentiates between Piranha Plants and "Hanging Piranha Plants") To respond to opposition from the last proposal:

"They have different attack patterns (one's actively hostile and jumps out of the water, and the other just passively swims and spits Baby Cheeps)!" It's not impossible for one enemy to have multiple attack patterns depending on their environment; in fact, with the exception of spitting Baby Cheeps, the Big Bertha/Boss Bass behavioral difference is exactly the same as surface/underwater Cheep Cheeps in SMB3 (and likely intended to mirror that).

"The "Big Bertha" name was also referenced in the official comics, adding proof they're supposed to be different species!" The official comics were clearly just using the only English name at the time, so we shouldn't count them as "more evidence" one way or the other. And besides, it was just a character named "Bertha", they never even referred to the species directly to my knowledge.

"The Japanese name doesn't prove anything!" On its own, it shouldn't be used as the only proof, but considering they also look exactly the same with literally no differences whatsoever, and our only proof they're different is an inconsistent guide, we should probably take a closer look at this issue.

"We shouldn't disregard the English names!" We also shouldn't treat the (old and usually inconsistent) English localizations as being perfect because of nostalgia. Consider how this guide lists "Hanging Piranha Plants" as their own species, or how most NES-era guides and manuals called red/green Koopas different enemies, or how the SMB manual made up a "Mushroom King" from nothing. Localizers make mistakes, this is likely one.

"They're different genders!" That doesn't make them different species. Especially since it's not always true.

"What name would the final article have?" The most recent name as per policy, which seems to be Boss Bass.

"They both appeared in the same game!" And my entire point is that it's not "two things in the same game" but most likely "one thing incorrectly called two things in a guide".

"Nintendo never said they're the same thing!" In English? No. But they did in two Japanese guides, as opposed to one shaky English guide.

I think I've made my point better this time around.

Proposer: Deadline: June 24, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) As usual, I follow my stance that enemies with the same original source material name can adapt different appearances and behaviour, in one game or not. And then there are the localizations that are/may be still used even though they are unreliable and erroneous in context (see NoE still calling the Koopalings "Bowser's Minions"). Since the source material in this case is Japanese, per proposal. If the source language was English, then I wouldn't support this.

Oppose

 * 1) Regardless, I still find the whole appearing in the same game thing to be a seller point for keeping them split. They also have subtle differences, such as Big Bertha spitting out Cheep-Cheeps, to which Boss Bass doesn't (unless I'm mistaken). In short, I still think the previous opposing votes made stronger points so per them.
 * 2) I'm sorry. This proposal was done before and it lost. Plus, they are totally different. They may be the same spiecies but not the same character so I don't see why you want them merged. We always have different articles on related spiecies, or just spiecies of stuff. If they are very identical, then I have no problem with them being merged.
 * 3) Per both. Why are you making this proposal again? I thought The first one resolve the problem.
 * 4) "the Big Bertha/Boss Bass behavioral difference is exactly the same as surface/underwater Cheep Cheeps in SMB3" is false. Boss Bass jumps out of the water and tries to chase you, Big Bertha just swims back and forth and spits out Cheep-Cheeps. Not sure if Big Bertha still kills you no matter what power-up though, mostly because I don't feel like testing it out... Anyway, I still believe that Boss Bass and Big Bertha are separate enemies.
 * 5) If the only difference this enemy had was that one of them leapt out of the water and the other remained underwater, then it would be perfectly analogous to the original Cheep Cheep; however, we've settled the confusion last time by deciding that Big Bertha specifically refers to it as a mouth breeder. We don't even know for sure if the Japanese guides don't make this distinction, since all we've got are some scavenged scans where one can make out that the names are the same but can't tell if they aren't actually described or organized differently. I'm sure a merge of just Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp hasn't been attempted before and would have a better chance after now including Bubba, but Big Bertha is probably best left alone. (Hanging Piranha Plants also give different points, at least in Super Mario Land.)
 * 6) - Per all, per all the opposition votes and comments in the last proposal as well, and per SuperYoshiBros's sentiments in the comments here about repeat proposals getting tiresome.
 * 7) I've looked at both sides of the argument, and I think that the two are better left different. It's the fine the way it is, so I think merging Boss Bass with Big Bertha would be speculation, with its strongest point being "well, enemies can have different attack patterns".
 * 8) - Per all, also Big Bertha is a female and Boss Bass is a male.
 * 9) - Per all. This proposal's only justice is that it will show that the general opinion on this subject has not changed. Also, as Walkazo said in another proposal it would be odd for us to not have a dedicated article for one of these. Speaking of which, what name would we even merge them under?
 * 10) Per SuperYoshiBros.

Comments
The Japanese Name doesn't prove anything though. (talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 00:09, 10 June 2015 (EDT)

@PowerKamek I'm confused on what you mean by "They may be the same species but not the same character". Are you referring to Bertha from the comics? Because she'd have her own page. Binarystep (talk) 01:36, 10 June 2015 (EDT)


 * I mean they are'nt the same. I crossed the confusing parts out. Sorry to confuse you. But no, I'm not referring to that.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 01:45, 10 June 2015 (EDT)

For the record, I'm starting to get REALLY tired of this "proposal fails, let's bring it back as soon as possible" song-and-dance. -- 10:57, 10 June 2015 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty It really sounds like we're trying to patch up a bad translation while preserving the "unique identity" Big Bertha has (again, likely because of nostalgia). Binarystep (talk) 15:06, 10 June 2015 (EDT)

@SuperYoshiBros in the comments: So should we enforce Rule #7 per MarioWiki:Proposals?:

"No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old."

And if you think those apply to only mainspace proposals, then rule 2 of Talk Page Proposals clearly states this:

"All rules for Talk Page Proposals are the same as mainspace proposals[...]"

Of course, exceptions can be made if there is new info or nobody has voted in the proposal, but I'm just wondering if that rule applies. But, the older one is four weeks older, so I guess that rule is moot... Just a heads up, though. 15:38, 10 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Even if it's allowed, I'm not sure if it should be done. It's like with the Parabuzzies; we have all of the same information that we had previously, so people are going to make the same arguments and the same rebuttals to those arguments, and people's opinions are unlikely to change, especially to the point where the verdict is flipped. It just seems like it's an unnecessary process.
 * Yeah, after the 4-week period's over, re-launching the same proposal without any major changes isn't breaking policy, but it is bordering on Don't shoot your foot off. It starts to feel like Rule 11: we don't allow ties to drag on for more than three extensions because it's clear by that point that the idea needs work and shouldn't happen, and similarly, if your proposal fails every time, it's clear that the idea is a dud, and isn't happening. This proposal is, frankly, a waste of time, and so was the last Parabuzzy proposal, and so will be any subsequent proposals about either subject (barring the addition of significant new info, at any rate, but I still feel like merges this convoluted in their justification would be best left split anyway, because odds are, most readers won't know or care about blurry scans of obscure Japanese guides and whatnot, and will have no problems with an extra article here and there). - 16:06, 10 June 2015 (EDT)

@TheHelper100: That's not a strong point, as there is a rebuttal specifically for that point outlined in the proposal. 18:58, 11 June 2015 (EDT)

Merge into Cheep Chomp
Coming off of our last two proposals, we're left in an awkward place. The things in Yoshi's Island DS that look and act like these and are named in English are grouped with Cheep Chomp, due to them having the same Japanese name, plus the fact that the red fish in 64DS and Kart DS used the same model as the purple fish in NSMB.

Anyways, this looks really awkward and a tad forced. Seriously, take a look. Now, let me go through with the details:
 * We don't know whether Bakubaku in Super Mario 64 was intended to be the same as Kyodai Pukupuku. It may be the same thing, but renamed, as Kyodai Pukupuku wouldn't work as a name when it's only as Kyodai as regular Pukupuku. Alternatively, it could be intended as a different stand-in for the same reasons.
 * The Super Mario Pia guidebook considers them different enough to not mention SMB3 in Bakubaku's section, but it also considers the Super Mario Land 2, Super Mario Galaxy, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 depictions of Spiny Cheep Cheep to be different from the rest, as is the only Japanese guidebook ever to say that the walking bombs from Super Mario USA and Super Mario Sunshine are both the same as the Bob-ombs in other games. In most cases, Japanese guidebooks are extremely rigid about following specific names, anyways.
 * 64DS gave them a very deliberate redesign to hark back to Kyodai Pukupuku, giving them the "squint" pupils while removing the shades.
 * People in the last proposal mentioned the flat, non-hair/wing-like dorsal and pectoral fin of Kyodai Pukupuku in comparison to Bakubaku. However, as I work with SMB3 sprites as a hobby (li'l self-advertisement), I can say that the in-game graphics for the regular Cheep Cheep in that game resembled that as well. Most of the large enemies in that game were rather crude scaling-up of their smaller counterparts' in-game appearances, with the face being different in this case (though admittedly, the original NES sprites fail to give the large one a light-colored belly). Additionally, both artworks seem to have been drawn based off of the sprite, not vice-versa (though both give them a light belly), and the game's artwork for Spiny Cheep Cheep from the game's own manual depicts similar pectoral fins as well. Basically, the miscellaneous attributes of both Kyodai Pukupuku and Bakubaku are dependent on those of the regular Cheep Cheeps in their respective games.
 * Furthermore, the first usage of the term Bakubaku had perfectly flat, red fins, just like the game's Pukupuku, meaning that once again, it's tied to the design of Cheep Cheep.
 * Following 64DS, later games started using that design. Kart DS actually used a Bakubaku to replace what was formerly a giant Pukupuku. Make of this what you will.
 * YIDS continued with the SMB3-inspired design, even using behavior taken directly from Kyodai Pukupuku, and the English version outright calling it Boss Bass through a boss's English name, as well as in guides.
 * In this game, its jumping behavior also makes it a large counterpart to the game's own Cheep Cheeps, which of course take after the "Flopsy Fish"-named ones from SMW2 right down to just reshading their graphics (because Artoon was lazy).
 * The NSMB Bakubaku used the same behavior, model, and noises as the 64DS one, but changed its colors to purple and turquoise, in order to keep it from being confused with the new big Cheep Cheep counterpart, Dai/Deka Pukupuku, which is definitely a different thing from Kyodai Pukupuku. However, we consider Kyodai Kuribō and Deka Kuribō to be the same thing, as is the case with the large Nokonoko, Pakkun Flower, and Teresa, all of which went through varying amounts of Japanese identifiers, particularly the last one. Anyways, the nonaggressive large counterpart from NSMB and onward indicates that the voracious large Pukupuku that was its former large counterpart is no longer its large counterpart.
 * Due to using the behavior from 64DS, the underwater Bakubaku in NSMB is much more aggressive than the underwater Kyodai Pukupuku in SMB3. However, the underwater Kyodai Pukupuku in SMB3 was likely intended to be an enlargement of the passive green Cheep Cheeps of the game, as they both swim back-and-forth, with the Baby Cheep acting as an added hindrance. The jumping Cheep Cheeps in that game are obviously more aggressive than that, and the jumping Kyodai Pukupuku takes after that, with the eating being the added hindrance.
 * There are no jumping enemy fish in Super Mario 64 whatsoever. Therefore, any fish that was to eat as an attack would have to do so while swimming.
 * Even if the original Bakubaku was not intended to be the same as Kyodai Pukupuku at the time (which we don't know either way), the remake's design indicates that they now are, at least retroactively, in a similar case to Ukiki, which if so, makes it a case of convergent design evolution.
 * Therefore, what is really unknown is whether they are convergent or always had been the same. As YIDS makes it pretty clear that they're the same now.
 * As such, the decision to be made is whether this potential convergence should be covered on the same page, like Ukiki's potential convergence is, or left separate.

The existence of a further giant Cheep Cheep counterpart that jumps and eats like the ones in SMB3 and YIDS and is dependent on its game's own Cheep Cheep design (a game which also features a weird-looking Spiny Cheep Cheep) is noted, but until more concrete evidence either way shows up, I'm not planning on touching that issue in relation to this. Particularly with the ambiguous appearance in Mario Golf, as that technically could have been a regular Cheep-Cheep.

Additionally, in the ultimate twist, there is a Kyodai Bakubaku in Mario Party 10. Which itself should probably be split like most other "Mega"s, but that's for another day.

Anyways, if successful, this proposal will merge the recently-merged Boss Bass and Big Bertha with the recently-expanded-through-section-merging Cheep Chomp, with the page taking the latter name.

'''Please take a look at the current state of both pages before voting, as they are vastly different than they were two months ago. Additionally, if this proposal fails, the only logical thing to do will be to reexamine Ukiki's article for consistency with how this system would thus work, as they are one of the only other enemies to have a comparable and extensive history, between the SMW2 and SM64 monkeys.'''

Thank.

Proposer: Deadline: December 19, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per proposal
 * 2) Super Mario Pia is the only real factor against this merge, but given that it also does not mention Kyodai Pukupuku at all and additionally does not even cover the games where Bakubaku had the transitional red fish design (namely Super Mario 64 DS, Mario Kart DS, and Yoshi's Island DS), the evidence far outweighs it. Per proposal.
 * 3) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) Per Toadette the Achiever's comments and Waluigi Time's comments.
 * 2) Per my comment below.
 * 3) This doesn't sit well with me. Per Toadette and the previous attempt to merge these. I still believe Cheep Chomp was a replacement for Boss Bass, and not a redesign. I'm also not a fan of the way the two have been handled recently (This looks like a Boss Bass but is actually a Cheep Chomp because the Japanese name says so). I do digress that Bass's SM64DS behavior is much closer to Cheep Chomps, though I think the difference between 2D and 3D platformers accounts for that.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Save the fish! Per all.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
I'm a bit confused on what to choose here... -- 06:55, 5 December 2018 (EST)
 * If you can't decide either way, don't vote either way. I've abstained from these plenty of times when I could see both sides fairly equally. I was somewhat nervous about making this proposal, and probably only did so due to it being past 5 AM (now 6) in my time zone, and as such, my ability to resist the urge to do so has gone down. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2018 (EST)
 * For Red Blurp and Cheep Cheep in Yoshi's Story, i think that their design is based off of the Super Mario World design of the Cheep Cheep. -- 07:11, 5 December 2018 (EST)
 * That's really not relevant to this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2018 (EST)

I'm kind of split as well, especially seeing that in Super Mario Bros. 3 the Boss Bass behaved more like a Porcupuffer than a Cheep Chomp. Also, by this logic, you would merge Ptooie into either Stalking Piranha Plant or River Piranha Plant, seeing as those enemies both share traits of a Ptooie. 07:22, 5 December 2018 (EST)
 * Ptooie still makes appearances on occasion, and Stalking or River Piranha Plant did not go through a convoluted period where the name and design kept changing to become more derivative of the former to varying degrees. Also, the New Super Mario Bros. games updated the behavior of certain enemies compared to the older platformers, such as homing Fish Bone and splitting Big Goomba - and that includes Porcupuffer, which didn't leap originally. And while not platformers, games like Paper Mario: Sticker Star and the Mario Party series show that modern purple Cheep Chomp exhibits the same leaping trait and quick water surface movement as classic red Boss Bass. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:25, 5 December 2018 (EST)
 * @Link it doesn't list SM64DS because it's a remake (and it doesn't cite the remakes such as SMA4SMB3 the remake of SM3 and remakes). -- 10:09, 5 December 2018 (EST)

@Waluigi Time Those previous attempts were before the SM64DS, MKDS, and YIDS details were on the Cheep Chomp page. And much of the opposition had to do with what was actual clear-cut separation back then, just incorrectly done. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2018 (EST)

@Waluigi Time It was less "because the Japanese name says so" and more the fact that we have known of several sources considering them the same for some time. In short, that's how we arrived at reorganizing Bubba with Cheep Chomp and Big Bertha with Boss Bass. If the articles fully merge, it might be simplest given the confusing history to just attribute the legacy localizations to each color (ie. Boss Bass / Big Bertha is red, Bubba is orange, and Cheep-Chomp / Cheep Chomp is purple) rather than keep the attempted chronology we now have for Cheep Chomp where Bubba is mostly used up until the current name is introduced. If that's the case, wouldn't that relieve the issue? LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:55, 5 December 2018 (EST)

Hmm, maybe I should have included a "merge to Big Cheep Cheep" option just for the heck of it (and the similar JP name system).....but then it probably wouldn't be valid for extensions, iirc. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2018 (EST)

I'm not fully sure about this: Super Mario Advance 4 was released after Super Mario 64 and yet the term Kyodai Pukupuku was used in its Nintendo Official Guidebook, while on the other hand since Super Mario 64 DS the term used for the fish that looked like a Kyodai Pukupuku was clearly Bakukbaku. When looking at the files, Super Mario 64 DS has a data\data\enemy\bakubaku directory with three files starting with bakubaku (bakubaku.bmd, bakubaku_attack.bca and bakubaku_swim.bca); Yoshi's Island DS has four sound files named SE_BIG_BAKBAK_GO_UP, SE_BIG_BAKBAK_DIVE, BANK_BIG_BAKBAK_GO_UP, BANK_BIG_BAKBAK_DIVE; as far as Mario Kart DS is concerned, we have the data\data\Course\old_hyudoro_64\MapObj directory with two files: baku_shadow.nsbmd and bakubaku.nsbmd. Essentially, even in the first iterations where it looked like a Boss Bass, there was hardly a connection with Kyodai Pukupuku in the name of the files. If we're talking about roles and appearance, I agree that the current Cheep Chomp is very similar and behaves similarly to Boss Bass - the notable exception being the latter being a mouth-brooding fish - but I wonder if we should rather consider Cheep Chomp a successor to Boss Bass who fully replaced the latter, rather than the very same thing.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:35, 6 December 2018 (EST)
 * I don't have the New Super Mario Bros series filenames, so i can't tell if it was Kyodai Bukubuku or still Bakubaku. -- 02:24, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * Given it uses the same....everything except colors as the one in SM64DS, it having a different file name than that would be less likely than this proposal being noncontroversial. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:32, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I can confirm that the New Super Mario Bros. series uses "bakubaku" for filenames. To be fair, Cheep Chomp doesn't seem to have the "smoking [[media:Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P18.jpg|gun]]" that Ukiki has just yet (the closest being Bessie Bass and the English-language Yoshi's Island DS guides, which while awkward, can be chalked up to localization), but even Ukiki was merged before that was found. I do want to figure out if the Japanese version of Super Paper Mario has a reference to Kyodai Pukupuku or Bakubaku so we know whether Yoshi's Island DS was a one-off thing, and if NES Remix 2 or Ultimate NES Remix possibly has internal references through the former's stamp at least. LinkTheLefty (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I take it the correct Sammer Guy isn't one of these? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:41, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * Unfortunately no, but the Sammer Guy schtick looks like it was entirely rewritten, so I'm specifically curious about the Shayde. In the videos I've seen, the player never bothers talking to the character more than once, which is when the reference would occur in either instance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:28, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * If memory serves me correctly, it's the first revisit, with the first visit being about the Micro Goomba. Anyways, given EmuParadise is dead, not sure how we'd go about verifying.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * Then you'll be disappointed to know that the Micro Goomba reference isn't in the Japanese version either (in fact, that joke also seems to be pretty different), so both Boss Bass lines were likely added in the English text. That just potentially leaves the NES Remix series, unless there is something else we're overlooking. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:59, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * There are those things from Arcade GP and Arcade GP 2, but we'd need a model name, and the one on TMR has been renamed to "Big Bertha"....and then again, it could just be an off-model Cheep Cheep, as MKAGP's model design wasn't exactly stellar, and had some SMS influence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2018 (EST)

I found these additional pictures which might help us get a bit more insight:  SMAGPB6 Bakubaku.png SMAGPB6 Pukupuku.png  They are scans from one of these activity picture books published by Shogakukan and written in collaboration with Nintendo. As usual,. It's actually interesting as it shows how some enemies of Super Mario 64 would look with a hand-drawn style like that used for the artwork of Super Mario World. In particular, we can see how Bakubaku looked when compared to Pukupuku, both featured in the same book. We can clearly see how the tail fins and the dorsal fins are pretty much the same and only of a different color, while the pectoral fins were different, with the sunglasses being also a distinctive trait - the latters indeed were the distinctive trait in the original Super Mario 64, as we can see from these pictures:  Bubba.png Bub 64.png  At this point, with this discovery, along with the models in Super Mario 64, I think we have enough information to infer that from the start Bakubaku was indeed the name of the big fish and that it was intended to be similar but distinct from Pukupuku.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:33, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * Yes, I've already added the picture to the page. However, my proposal takes into account they may have been intended to be different at first, with their first three DS appearances officially conflating them. Anyways, theis wouldn't be the first time Cheep Cheep's stock previous appearance would be used alongside a big eater one, itself drawn according to its in-game style; that would be . Also, it's pretty clear to me that the Baku picture there is just an edit of the same stock artwork, perhaps traced initially. The outer outline of the lips is the same aside from the thickness, as it the tail's, and the area separating back from belly (which didn't even exist in-game then). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * From the original version and the remake, i can see that Bubba (later thought to be a new enemy for the localizers "Cheep Chomp") was in it first appearance orange with a yellow belly and red fins and tail. For information, Cheep Cheep's design was inconsistent at the time. -- 03:28, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Actually, its body was entirely orange. That yellow belly is simply because that artwork is an edit of the typical Cheep Cheep artwork. The design in the game is consistent with "Bub," what Cheep Cheep was called in English for that game, though the design clearly takes from Blurp more. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * On a talk page, you are required at one proposal at once? After this proposal, could i make one in which we split Bertha, a Nintendo Comic System? Or i have to wait 4 weeks? Do you have to wait 4 weeks after your own proposal or is it also used on someone else's proposal? -- 05:11, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Also, when i said i was confused on what to choose, is that i had no arguments in the oppose section. -- 05:21, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Would you split Ukiki-formerly-Grinder (Osaru-san) from Ukiki (Ukkii)? This is the most comparable case here, in that they were officially conflated by SM64DS and have been ever since...if they were intended to be different in the first place, which we don't know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:29, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * I doubt the Yoshi's New Island Japanese guide erroneously called them Ukiki. -- 05:33, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * The game called them Osaru-san through a level name. This is that "official conflation" thing I was talking about. Furthermore, YWW actually based their model off of the SMW2 in-game sprite, yet called it Ukkii. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:39, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Though, they shared some traits with their artwork, as they have red cheeks and lack of the two hairs above their head in Yoshi's Woolly World. -- 05:45, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Face shape and tan area. Anyways, that's getting off-topic. My point is if we cover potential convergence on the same page there, why not do the same here? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:52, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * And it is unknown during their SM64 appearance if they were intended to look like Grinders or not. And yes, it's off topic. -- 09:37, 10 December 2018 (EST)
 * That's an understatement, it's unknown if they were intended to be the same thing at all in SM64. Odds are, they weren't, and odds are equally likely that the devs hadn't even considered making them the same until SM64DS, or possibly even later. Anyways, I'm curious why the YIDS thing isn't enough proof for you regarding Boss Bass. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:16, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Honestly, now I'm thinking maybe I should have added a "merge to Big Cheep Cheep" option....I can repropose with that later, I suppose, but I'd like to try to merge the Yoshi's Story Blurps first. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:06, 11 December 2018 (EST)
 * I don't think Deka Pukupuku is based nor intended to be the Boss Bass or Big Bertha. -- 10:10, 11 December 2018 (EST)
 * What about the other "big" enemies? I'm looking at this in conjunction with the Blurps, since they were the large Cheep Cheeps in their own game, and seem a bit transitional to me. Anyways, answer my above question, please. If Grinder is Ukiki, why is Boss Bass not Cheep Chomp? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2018 (EST)

@LinkTheLefty "I do want to figure out if the Japanese version of Super Paper Mario has a reference to Kyodai Pukupuku or Bakubaku" Nope. It's a shark they talk about in JP version. SmokedChili (talk) 08:21, 12 December 2018 (EST)

@Doc von Schmeltwick, unlike Ukiki, there are no source contradicting where they are called Bakubaku as Kyodai Pukupuku. Every manual and internal filenames of games which they are known as Bakubaku have the name they are known as in this game. -- 10:32, 16 December 2018 (EST)
 * I believe you yourself have said that "Japanese names and internal file names aren't everything." Here, we have MKDS and YIDS implying they're the same now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2018 (EST)
 * The "implying" part doesn't seal the deal for everyone - we have a lot of circumstantial evidence but not enough that's universally agreed to be conclusive (direct proof surfacing in the NES Remix 2 stamp is unlikely because stamps generally don't have proper labels as far as I can tell). And honestly, the fact that a completely different Deka Pukupuku exists when literally every other SMB3 "Kyodai" enemy eventually became a "Deka" enemy somewhat complicates the merge, so deeming Kyodai Pukupuku as the predecessor to both Bakubaku and Deka Pukupuku may be the fairer interpretation for now. This proposal was already tried and failed, so I doubt we'll get a different result if it's reproposed anytime soon unless something more significant comes up. Maybe a better proposal in the meantime would be to regroup the DS/red Bakubaku with Boss Bass instead of Cheep Chomp as it narrowly succeeded over the other option, but I worry about that creating an unintended snowball effect... LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:20, 17 December 2018 (EST)

Welp, guess having these merged is not going to be a late birthday present of mine. Ah well. :P Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:15, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * Well, first of all, happy birthday! I can see how this might be a disappointment for you, but I hope that nonetheless your birthday has been a good enough day not to be marred by this outcome.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:44, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * Belated Happy Birthday! LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:20, 17 December 2018 (EST)

@Doc von Schmeltwick so it's your birthday? Well, i didn't knew that... Anyways, Happy Birthday. -- 04:34, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * Should we extend the proposal? It currently only has 10 votes. -- 11:56, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * At a difference of 4. It has to be a difference of 3 or less, iirc. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:00, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * Proposals can't excede 4 weeks. What happens if it keeps those 10 votes? Would it anyways has the proposal outcome? -- 12:03, 17 December 2018 (EST)
 * It would end in a deadlock and nothing would change unless a further proposal was made and it succeeded. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:04, 17 December 2018 (EST)