Talk:Bull's-Eye Bill

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article?

I have no clue.


 * Then what shall we do?


 * I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill?

Fanmade?
How do you know if an image is fan made or not? Like the Missile Bill "artwork"? Technickal 19:01, 1 December 2011 (EST)

Well that was fan made for sure. I made it, I changed the Bullet Bills color to red, that is it. If they are from Fantendo they are fan made.

Truth
Has it ever actually been confirmed that the purple Bullet Bills in Super Mario Sunshine are in fact Missile Bills? The Nintendo Power guide just refers to them as "Bullet Bills". Vent (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

In Bowser's battle they follow you.

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article?

I have no clue.


 * Then what shall we do?


 * I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill?

They follow you, but unless we have a source that specifically says that they're Missile Bills, then they're not Missile Bills. Vent (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Official or conjectural ?
How is this name conjectural ? It is said that the Prima guide gave them an official name. 11:08, 22 December 2012 (EST)


 * This page has, not .--NSMBWIIEJr.png BowserJunior RULES! 19:21, 1 January 2013 (EST)

FTR, that means that it has been given an official name in one appearance, but unnamed in another.

19:27, 1 January 2013 (EST)
 * Ok, I never understood this template until now. 07:09, 2 January 2013 (EST)

Missile Bill is the real name?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM At minute 1:30 is called Bull's Eye-Bill. Is the official name of Missile Bill or a different enemy?--Sonic98 (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Missile Bill is the offical name alright, if it wasn't this would have a conjectural template on it. That Youtuber probably just likes calling it that, like sometimes I call Koopa Troopas "Turtles". But if it's an official trailer ...--Sonic98 (talk) 13:05, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

It could be an updated name, but I'd say wait until the game is out and there's more info since it could change before release. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill
As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker trailer by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s

As far as I know, "Missile Bill" was only used in a Nintendo Power strategy guide ages ago. It's clear that the enemy has been renamed.

Proposer: Deadline: July 4, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Comments
Rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." It's policy to move pages to their most recent name, so there's no need for this proposal.
 * Yeah, just rename it. - 12:28, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Alright then. Aokage (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

About that Citation Needed for Superstar Saga...
Over at TCRF, they do indeed have info on a raised bill blaster, though rather than saying they fire Bull's-Eye Bills, they instead make the connection that it resembles a Bombshell Bill from Paper Mario. I couldn't find any information as to if there was any name for either the raised bill blaster or its projectiles, though, so whether or not it's a Bombshell or a Bull's-Eye Bill remains to be a mystery. At any rate, though, that's where I'm assuming the data came from.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the article, though. Since it could also potentially be a Bombshell Bill, I feel hesitant to use it as our source, especially since the source makes that comparison, not the Bull's-Eye Bill one. I would make a vote, but that feels a bit too arbitrary for something like this. What do you guys think?  ~Camwood777  (talk)  22:09, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It's golden and from a stronger cannon, I'd say Bombshell would make the most sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It seems to be graphical data, so I'd be wary of making a call - we don't call the unused yellow Cheep Cheeps from Super Mario Bros. 3 Eep Cheeps, after all. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * But see, official Eep Cheeps came after the ambiguous-Eep Cheep. And we do mention them. So it's a different situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We could just say the unused Bullet Bills are unnamed but have a color similarity to Bombshell Bills, kind of like we already do with Eep Cheeps. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in New super Mario Bros. Wii for this page?
Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (Mario Party 8) or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Advance 3). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine and even internal data confirm that those of Super Mario Sunshine are just Killers (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in pinnaBeach1 are called killer, those used in coronaBoss are grouped under bathtubkiller). Same for those of Super Mario Bros. 3, with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario advance 4 as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in Super Mario Advance 3, where the Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under Killers using the name Red Killers for the ones capable of following Yoshi. While it's highly likely that the Search Killers were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I agree to merge the Super Mario Bros 3 and Yoshi's Island to Bullet Bill. It is POSSIBLY a callback though for the New Super Mario Bros. Wii appearance. What should we do about Purple Bullet Bill? Should we merge it to Bullet Bill as well, or should it be on its own article? -- 13:03, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I don't agree at all. While Pia lists only from NSMBW-onwards, it is based entirely around names things had at the time of the respective game, and as you pointed out, Mister Wu, there is a high probability that the writer simply wasn't made aware of name changes when doing whatever they did for research. While they were considered a Troopa-like color/behavior difference back in the day, so was Circling Boo Buddies, which Mario Maker has made objectively distinct name-wise, and it's certainly the same entity as the previously non-distinguished-in-Japanese thing. If anything, this leads more credence to the idea of merging Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp. Using guidebooks (and especially internal data) from before they were officially split to "prove" that they're the same as Bullet Bills is full of fallacy, as the name "Search Killer" and Japanese distinction didn't exist yet, which has no bearing on whether it does now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:06, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Disagree with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. -- 13:10, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Doesn't really matter here on how well that part's agreed with, that's the least important part of that comment. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2019 (EST)

"Early Japanese sources treated them as a simple color and behavioral variation of the generic Bullet Bill, akin to green and red Koopa Troopas, but began treating them as a fully-separate entity in New Super Mario Bros. Wii." Well, that's confusing and unhelpful. Looking at the merge/split templates on the the page and what info we have, I'm really not sure. We have Red and Green Koopa Troopas merged, yes, because they share the same name; though Brawl named them differently, Smash 4 gives them the color identifier. Maybe we should do that, give "Bullet Bill (red)" a page? 13:33, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * How is that confusing? They called them Killers back then. Now they don't. They're a flashy chasy Bullet Bill, and as such this seems similar to the previous idea of renaming the monkey Grinder to "Ukiki (Yoshi's Island series)" a page before it was decided to just merge it to Ukiki, as Nintendo seemed to have done the same. Anyways, following this "using old sources to decide how we do articles for subjects that have been repurposed in some manner that conflicts with said old sources" logic, we might as well create individual articles for the "classic" Koopalings since they were Bowser's kids back then, and that's different from Nintendo's current interpretation too. But that idea is picky and rather asinine, isn't it? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Indeed, it wouldn't solve anything and just cause more confusion than there already is. 13:56, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I'd like to remind you that hyperbole arguments make a certain impact, but are rather unhelpful for conversation. In this specific case, you chose a poor example, as each Koopaling had retained their Japanese name in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, this actually being one of the very few untouched aspects of them. It's basically the opposite case as the one we are seeing dealing with here, where we are assuming that subjects with different Japanese names are the same.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * It was not intended as hyperbole, actually, as I was not referring to the specific set of changes, but more the general idea. Anyways, didn't Japanese SMM call Circling Boo Buddies "Teresa Clock" or something after they had previously just been identified as "Teresa?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:50, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Sorry then, it looked to me like an hyperbole, I don't know about the Japanese name in Super Mario Maker, do you know where it could be found?--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)
 * I could be misremembering something, admittedly. I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:43, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

Since I was asked, this is what I further found about the Bullet Bills in Super Mario Bros. 3 and about the Missile Bills:
 * The Super Mario Zen Hyakka, a Shogakukan book written in collaboartion with Nintendo, in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, on page 192, mentioned the Ōfuku Killer(「往復キラー」, Round Trip Killer) in the bio of the Killer
 * The Perfect Ban: Mario Character Daijiten on page 63 mentioned the ōfuku type in the bio of the Killer
 * The Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (in my case the 25th Anniversary of Super Mario Bros. version, but it's a reprint of the original one) on page 194 has a brief description of the Killer that, as usual for Nintendo Official Guidebooks, stresses their ability to cahnge trajectory in a few cases
 * The Nintendo Power Strategy Guide of Super Mario bros. 3 introduces the Missile Bills stating Bullet Bills with a red hue will travel back and forth in search of their target
 * The Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. Wii names the Search Killer Missile Bill in the Basics/Pipe Cloggers section
 * Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker gives a new English name to the Search Killer: ''Bull's Eye Bill', the current name of the page

At this point it's clear that there is conflicting infromation between Japanese names and North American localization, in a situation similar to that had with Big Bertha and Boss Bass, which are split in the Nintendo Power guide but not in the Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebooks, have one of the names repurposed for an enemy that has a different Japanese name, the latter of which eventually ends up having its own English name. I'd like to remind that keeping the enemies that are not named Search Killer in the History section has a precise implication: that those enemies are just Bull's Eye Bills that weren't yet renamed. This is why I want to reexamine the evidence, in particular because even if we ignore the different name given in the early character books, Nintendo in Japan rather considered the behavior of some Killers of Super Mario Bros. 3 that of changing direction or making a U-turn (or a round trip). Furthermore, the purple Bullet Bills of Super Mario Sunshine have homing capabilities, but not only the name, their appearance as well is different, with red not being among the colors of the Bullet Bills that follow Mario. In the case of Mario Party 8, the homing behavior reportedly isn't there, just the red color is that of Bull's Eye Bills. The one case that has similar behavior and appearance is that of Super Mario Advance 3, yet I wonder how much we are allowed to state that they are not-yet-renamed Bull's Eye Bills or rather the precursors on which the actual Bull's Eye Bills were based.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I have no idea what the case for Mario Party 8 is, but I will point out that the homing capabilities of the purple Bullet Bill only differ from than of the SMB3 enemy in that they don't give up. That is to say, they still make U-turns. The whole thing seems less a replacement on the concept and more a refining of the concept to me, combined with greater technical capabilities they wanted to take advantage of, as the NES wouldn't have been capable of the current behavior (particularly on a graphical level, as sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the SNES, and mass sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the Super FX chip), and the old "round-trip" name not being accurate for an that homes more freely. Anyways, if we are going to split Missile and Bull's-Eye Bill, I still feel that the purple Bullet Bill should go with the Missile Bill and not Bullet Bill, as they act far more similar than most Sunshine enemies and have a red flash, just limited to the nose. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Ahem... -- 02:27, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Except that unlike that, the so-called "originals" never showed up again, unless you want to say that "Search Killer" was the SMW2 unused asset but not the SMB3 enemy. Even the SMM ones act like the NSMBW ones, with the SMB3-style SMM ones using colors near-identical to the color they flash to in small or super Mario is being played as in SMB3. Additionally, SMG Bats didn't even look like Swoops, while in this case, the only off-model appearance is from the game where every previously-used enemy was majorly off-model. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * I meant to point out your comment in response to Camwood777's vote. -- 04:52, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * That was a year and a half ago. Anyways, the blinky red nose seems indicative of the blinky sometimes-red appearance in SMB3, and I had forgotten then just how similar their U-turning thing was. I suppose there's one other difference, in that the SMS ones explode rather spectacularly, but all Bills do in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * One can change their mind in the meantime. This is a complex matter, and since we don't work at Nintendo, we can't have a definitive answer on whether a renaming happened or not. I'm presently worried by the status of the page as it seems to put together enemies based on not so clear criteria (that's mainly due to Mario Party 8 that uses an appearance-based criterion, if someone has that game that part should be reviewed as soon as possible). I also think we're making bold claims right now in the History section, although we can't really fault anyone since it was the Prima guide that made that connection first and foremost. This is why I'm asking to see what we can do. Merging with the Bullet Bills page is a solution, I'm wondering if we can alter the page structure so that the inclusion of the previous Mario-seeking Bullet Bills is less of a claim that they are the same thing and more of an observation of how they are the likely predecessors of the Bull's Eye Bill(e.g. by adding a Possible/Likely predecessors section).--Mister Wu (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * The internal names don't always add up - for example, the Bullet Bill in Super Mario Galaxy is "HomingKiller" internally, which more accurately describes the soon-to-be-named Bull's-Eye Bill. Also, we have another example of a Bullet Bill type previously being grouped together in Japanese sources but clearly separated more recently (Bouncing Bullet Bill). Though the Zen Hyakka information is new, so that could change things. If we do split Missle Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill, I also suggest leaving the red Bullet Bill from Yoshi's Island as Bull's-Eye Bill, as they are functionally the same thing and those book sources don't cover that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:32, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * I personally disagree with that. I'd rather organize these Bullet Bill variants by using case-by-case analysis for each game and, based on that, decide if the variants will be merged with Bullet Bill article or split into their own. To explain how I'd intend this, Missle Bill would be either covered in Bullet Bill's SMB3 section or given its own article, Purple Bullet Bill would be covered in Sunshine section, and the red Bullet Bill in SMA3 section while the similarity to Bull's-Eye Bill would be noted. SmokedChili (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Why splitting the SMB3 information into its own article if it is considered to be the same thing? -- 09:13, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * We've one reference now, Super Mario Zen Hyakka, that gives the Super Mario Bros. 3 type a unique name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Do they disappear after a couple of seconds in YWW? -- 10:00, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Judging from YouTube, no they don't, but this is again behavior refining, given the previous Yoshi appearance was in the super-secret last level of a GBA remake. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Is Ofuku intended to be taken as a proper noun or not? -- 06:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * Yes, Ōfuku Killer is in quotations, and the quote states that's what it's called. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:33, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I just checked YouTube, and in the MP8 minigame, all the Bills home in to a very limited extent. Moreso than Brawl, less so than most other "homing" depictions. It's more of a very wide curve. EDIT: It's most comparable to the ones in Super Mario 64, in that it's on a single plane like the "u-turn" ones, but without the u-turn itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, 8 March 2019 (EST)

It is additionally noteworthy, and related to the "Homing Killer" internal name above, that in Galaxy 2, some Bullet Bills home like in the first Galaxy, while others don't, and the only visual difference is that the homing ones briefly flash red eyes when they catch sight of the player. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * Furthermore, it is worth noting that in some games, Bull's-Eye Bills act similar to the SM64 enemy, and that the Cat Bullet Bill (which dos so as well) is identified as a Search Killer internally (itself likely a Goropu-Indy situation). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, 10 March 2019 (EST)

A timeline on platform Bill homing: -Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * SMB3/SMA4-Missile Bill/"Ofuku Killer": Flashes different colors a la Invincible Mario (black, orange, and red in remakes), U-turns along a flat plane, gives up after a few turns
 * SMW2/SMA3-"Red Killer": Solid red, biting animation, follows along all planes of movement, shrinks into nothingness after a while, is unused in original
 * SM64/SM64DS-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, turns quickly and loosely on a flat plane
 * SMS-Purple Bullet Bill/"Killer": Purple with red blinky nose, U-turns along a flat plane, persistent
 * SMG-Bullet Bill/" Killer": Black with red eye flash upon detection, follows along all planes of movement upon detection
 * NSMBW-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Red with slight glow, follows along all planes of movement
 * SMG2-Bullet Bill/" Killer": Same as SMG
 * NSMBU-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBU
 * SM3DW-Cat Bullet Bill/"Neko Killer/Search Killer": Is a cat, follows quickly and semi-accurately along flat plane
 * CTTT-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along flat plane (apparently, I don't actually have this game)
 * SMM-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along all planes of movement, SMB3 style looks like the shade Missile Bill flashes to if Small or Super Mario.
 * YWW-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red, follows along all planes of movement
 * SMR-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBW
 * SMO-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, follows slowly and accurately along flat plane
 * Thanks, this is very usfeul as a summary, by the way, it is confirmed that in Super Mario 3D World the Cat Bullet Bill is known as Neko Killer in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook and the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., but its internal name is KillerSearch, way to go to confuse us... I won't be doing something in the short term anyway, so we have some time to clarify the main points and see if a proposal would be appropriate.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:26, 10 March 2019 (EDT)
 * A proposal would be appropriate. From what can i tell, this should work: The SMB3 enemy should be split due to that different Japanese name. The Purple Bullet Bill is sufficiently unique. The Yoshi's Island thing should be merged to Bullet Bill as it is a more complicated case than Bouncing Bullet Bill. Since none of us work for Nintendo, we don't have definitive answers right now, so, maybe contacting them? (no that's a dumb idea) -- 04:22, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Purple Bullet Bill acts almost exactly like SMB3 Missile Bill, so if Missile Bill were to be split I personally would advocate for it to remain in the same article as it, as it can be inferred to be intended as the same entity du to said behavioral similarities. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:47, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * The Neko/Search Killer thing is likely a similar case to Ugan being identified as Unbaba in files initially, ie likely intended as that on the outset of its programming into the game before evolving into a distinct entity during development. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:53, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Additionally "Purple Bullet Bill" almost matches with its Japanese name "Killer (murasaki)". They're possibly intended to be one of the 4 variants in the game. Again, we don't have definitive answers. -- 04:58, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regardless, behaviorally, it seems to be intended to invoke Missile Bill, and in fact is a lot closer to the source in behavior than most other of the game's enemies. I'll additionally point out that there seems to have only been one guide that used "Ofuku Killer," with the rest just lumping them with normal Killers. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:40, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * It seems to invoke. There is no proof that this is a Missile Bill besides the behavior. Anyways, the similarity between the two can be noted rather than the two getting lumped in one page. -- 09:58, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's a big "seems." They're more likely thee same than not. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:28, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Again, we don't have definitive answers. What convinced you that they are the same? -- 12:32, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * I've explained this again and again. "Ofuku Killer" was in a single guide, with the rest at the time lumping them with Killers. These act almost exactly the same in a game full of misfits, so them being lumped with normal Killers when the initial version was in most cases additionally lumped with normal Killers doesn't mean a thing. Furthermore, they blink. Saying that none of these are significant is just ignoring information. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's a complicated situation. -- 06:58, April 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration is potentially a callback to the previous iteration, the Purple Bullet Bill is more based on its color, rather than on its behavior. For the Purple Bullet Bill, compare it to Ice Snifits rather than Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō. What about the encyclopedia still grouping them together in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while considering the Bull's-Eye Bill a different species? Yes, i'm aware that these iterations called them "Missile Bill", but that's because of Prima's incompetence. That says, i do want to know how LinkTheLefty wants to reorganize this page... -- 10:10, May 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * What does purple bill even have to do with it... 10:32, May 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Ikr. I wouldn't recommand restarting another proposal immediately, as the below proposal has been cancelled to let out the discussion play first. -- 10:37, May 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Excuse me, but how in Hell does "not calling them by a name that didn't exist yet and logically assuming that it's the same thing as before" qualify as "incompetence?" I think you're ovrstepping some boundaries here. I think "blinky homing Bullet Bill" is good enough of a specification, which Purple Bullet Bill qualifies for. It's not that they introduced a new enemy for NSMBW, they divergently evolved what was previously typically considered a color variation in Japan into a definitive separate entity, while it was already considered one in English. They may have some so because it was already considered different in English, I don't know. Bouncing Bullet Bill became its own thing later in Japan too iirc, and it's still definitely the same entity. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:55, May 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Agreed, Prima is well known for their incompetence but calling them out as being "incompetent" for not using a name that didn't exist at the time, for a subject that's nearly identical and most likely intended to be the same, is ridiculous. There's no reason whatsoever to split the SMB3 Missile Bills from the ones that appeared in NSMBW onwards; we've established countless times that a different Japanese name alone does not instantly mean a split.-- 19:58, May 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * The point was more about how we can't know for sure that they are the same thing instead of just precursors of what would then become a more consistent enemy in both name, appearance and features. I just feel that we should be more cautious on the "they are the same"; this however doesn't really need a split, we might just use some wording that explains how the current Bull's Eye Bills appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, with those coming before being labeled as "likely precursors" or something like that.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:36, May 25, 2019 (EDT)

Oh, Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heiho aren't a comparable situation, as they appeared in a follow-up of a Yoshi game, within the Bullet Bill's design being more 1:1 to its main series design in this game. -- 03:40, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Like i said, Purple Bullet Bill is considered to be a purple variant of the Bullet Bill. While Guided Bullet Bill has got ahead, and got split, Purple Bullet Bill is more complicated than Guided Bullet Bill. While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might be a callback to the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration, the Yoshi's Island iteration is a color variant, which, while Bouncing Bullet Bill returned in Yoshi's New Island, the red ones didn't, so it's too speculative to say for sure. The encyclopedia still have them in one entry in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, while the New Super Mario Bros. Wii onwards sections separates them from normal Bullet Bills -- 11:14, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's a platforming game in the extended Mario franchise. It counts. Now, as for Purple, it was a blinky, chasy version of Bullet Bill, which made rapid u-turns. A blatant callback to the blinky, chasy version of the Bullet Bill that made u-turns in SMB3. I will not be moved on this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:35, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Agreed. 14:47, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, nearly every returning enemy in Sunshine had a strange design, with the sole exception of Chain Chomps. Purple Bullet Bills and Bull's-Eye Bills are as similar to each other as regular Bullet Bills and the ones from Sunshine, Japanese name aside, which as I've said is not a good reason by itself to split. Splitting the Sunshine and Yoshi's Island Missile Bills on the basis of being different from the other Missile Bills, which ignores the fact that both of those games had odd Bullet Bill designs to begin with, and that some Japanese guides treated them as a color variant, is silly. -- 16:34, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I failed to notice that the proposal was canceled, so I’ll just say here that I agree with what has been said. -- 16:45, May 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I somehow agree with Mister Wu. -- 09:57, May 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * For the record, I am open to only splitting the original about-facing ones from the later fully-homing ones in theory (although it could be explained as technical limitations), but in practice, having two "Missile Bill" subjects might be just as messy as the Boss Bass / Cheep Chomp situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:00, May 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * @LinkTheLefty, what do you think about Purple Bullet Bill, since Guided Bullet Bill got ahead and got split? -- 13:24, May 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Guided Bullet Bill itself refers to two colors of its own: blue and black (which, for whatever reason, doesn't look accounted for in Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.). Purple Bullet Bill is the closer analogue to Bull's-Eye Bill since it has no special characteristics besides homing. Anyway, after the name for the Guided Bullet Bills was found, it seemed a bit forced to have both them and Purple Bullet Bill in the same article. I know that these are deemed color variations in Encyclopedia, but as Bouncing Bullet Bill demonstrates, there are instances where color variations become named. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:15, May 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * The only logical thing to do is to contact Nintendo JP to ask to them what of which are based of off, and/or if it's indeed a reappearance, or a new enemy. No, that's a bad idea, isn't it? I call Prima incompetent, because they were incompetent enough not to recognize that it was a new enemy, than a returning enemy. If they recognized it to be a new enemy, they'd give them another name. Red/blinking chasing concept isn't enough to convince me that they are the same. @Doc von Schmeltwick, regarding the above, "I assume that there is additionally a vocal thing in the JP release, perhaps a Japanese Youtube video of SMM would be a good way to confirm or deny." They just use the english name of the subjects, like in the english version. Regarding my "What convinced you that they are the same", i was mainly referring to the Super Mario Bros. 3 Missile Bills and Purple Bullet Bills. That says, i do want to know which sections Mister Wu thinks should be affected. -- 08:18, June 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * In what possible way would Prima be incompetent for looking at an identical enemy when the only thing differentiating them is the Japanese name and not labeling it as something entirely different? I'm sorry, but that logic is ridiculous. -- 18:40, June 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * Out of curiosity, what are both the Bull's-Eye Bill and Bull's-Eye Banzai's internal filenames in New Super Mario Bros. Wii? Still, i wonder how Mister Wu intends this reorganization to be, and which sections he wants affected. -- 07:36, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * They share the same model data as their non-homing counterparts in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:00, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * @FOY Please stop saying that. Mister Wu is not the God of Organization. Repeatedly saying that you wonder what he thinks over and over (particularly when he's already said) isn't going to magically make things different. Additionally, looking for file names in what in most cases is a texture swap in 3D games will not change much either. The fact of the matter is that attempting a split here is pointless and confusing, it's already written that they were initially considered a recolor in Japan (which is since rescinded) while thy were always different from Bullet Bill in the West, and that's pretty much what Mister Wu said. Not exactly, but pretty much. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:07, June 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * Maybe the Ice Snifit example is too complicated regarding the Purple Bullet Bill. How do you explain that we are reorganizing the blue Lava Bubble then? Same scenario, no? -- 05:15, June 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * Not even remotely. One is a small variation that acts quite differently (SMG/2), another is a Troopa-esque color variation through and through (SPP), and another is literally a retexture with no other differences to speak of (SM3DW). With the example here, the behavior is mostly consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:58, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Then what about the fact that it's on the same book that each section treats them differently? -- 15:00, June 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Maybe the blue Lava Bubble example is too complicated? -- 07:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over the Prima guide. Like i said above, how i'd intend this, the Super Mario Bros. 3 section should be merged with Bullet Bill due to Zen Hyakka being so far the only book to distinguish Missile Bill from Bullet Bill in a Japanese source, Purple Bullet Bill should be split into its own article, and the Yoshi's Island section should be merged with Bullet Bill as well. While it might be based off of one of the 3 previous iteration, we can't say for sure that they are still the same. Maybe it got replaced, maybe it's always the same, too many assumption are made to my taste. The encyclopedia was made 6 years after Search Killer was separate from Killer, and yet, each game section relies on what they were called in this game. How do you explain that Face block is getting merged with Stretch Block? Same scenario, no? -- 08:30, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. treatment in different sections: for the most part (with few exceptions like Keronpa Ball), each section treats the subject as it did in the source guide. That's why names tend to change depending on the section, and why certain things get their own listing in some sections and are grouped together in others (for example, Big Cheep Cheep only gets its own listing in the New Super Mario Bros. section despite similar-sized Big Deep Cheeps also appearing in the New Super Mario Bros. 2 section, as other sections group it together with Cheep Cheep). So when it comes to name changes, it's not helpful in drawing the line. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:46, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Why do we have Guided Bullet Bill split if Purple Bullet Bill is not split? -- 06:57, June 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * A: That was done without discussion; B: This is an exact analogue to the prior enemy, complete with blinking. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:07, June 18, 2019 (EDT)

Since I had not done anything for so long about the discussion and the page, I updated the text so that it simply matches what we know about them as well as the introductory paragraph, without ignoring the English name - that we have to report anyway - as well as the Japanese name in the case of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, technically the first game to use the Bull's Eye Bills. I assume that Mario Party 9 uses the Bull's Eye Bills from New Super Mario Bros. Wii - I kept the Missile Bills name since Bull's Eye Bills was yet to be introduced -, please correct that part if they are actually different Mario-seeking Bullet Bills. This is a bit of the idea I had in mind, I'm not sure if we're still conveying the right message to the reader who just quickly visits the page, but hopefully for the reader who actually reads the paragraphs this might give a clearer idea, with less unneeded assumptions.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:32, June 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the Big Cheep Cheep, it might just be a mistake. -- 15:29, June 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Fine by me. Regarding that you changed the wordings on the page. Out of curiosity, does the Golden Bullet Bill chases the player? -- 09:31, June 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * In Sunshine? No, it acts like a normal Bill in that game except it releases a ring of coins instead of just one if it's sprayed before hitting the ground. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:29, June 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * Kaitensuru Hono was split without any discussion. Same scenario, no? -- 10:42, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Not even remotely, as one is a bloody fireball and due to the overlapping development periods by different teams the similarity could easily be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:50, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * So, if i get this right, we're only 4 people to agree with changing anything, one that prefers a more case-by-case basis (SmokedChili), and 6 to disagree on changing anything? -- 13:49, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * A proper vote hasn't been made, so we don't know about what the other people outside of this discussion would vote. The point of this discussion isn't seeing the numbers, but rather understanding if there are problems and what are the possible improvements that can be made.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:38, June 25, 2019 (EDT)

My two cents: Given how SMB3 Missile Bills had an old guide give them a unique name from Bullet Bills vs. Encyclopedia SMB only mentioning them in Bullet Bill's description, I'd say their status as a separate enemy is debatable. And given how regular Bullet Bills have homing abilities in some games, along with flashing/blinking in some cases, attributing them to Bulls-Eye Bills, which appeared later, sounds like jumping into (hasty) conclusions. Sure, they flashed in NSMB, but aside from becoming red later, how is that significantly different from, say, Deep Cheeps adapting the green Cheep Cheep palette for themselves? B-E. Bill is specifically a homing type, B. Bill varies. That's why for now I think it would be for the best to mention only named Bulls-Eye Bill appearances (English and Japanese; NSMBWii - onwards) in the Bulls-Eye Bill article and move anything else to the Bullet Bill article. SmokedChili (talk) 13:13, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * So then how do you feel about Bouncing Bullet Bill? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:19, June 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * Same as Bulls-Eye; there's yellow bouncing Bullet Bills in Yoshi's Island and green Bullet Bills with unique Japanese name in Yoshi's New Island. Emphasis on Japanese name. SmokedChili (talk) 11:24, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Barring the physics differences in the game engines, they are practically identical, and the color change is likely a throwback to ordinary Bullet Bills in the first game. Relay Heihō is in the same boat, and moving pre-New Island information to Boo Guy would be needlessly pedantic. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:46, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * I agree with LinkTheLefty. Like i said before, they're not a comparable situation, as, unlike Bull's-Eye Bill, they were similar enough to be based off of each other. Current situation is pretty much complicated, and is more confusing than if reorganized. -- 08:42, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, it's more easy to tell, since it's a Yoshi game with previous mechanics and enemies. -- 05:58, June 30, 2019 (EDT)

Here's my point of view. 15:24, July 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * First, Purple Bullet Bill. It's a flashy homing Bullet Bill. I'd consider this different regularly, but looking at the remarkably off-model designs of most enemies, these are probably Missile Bills with a different design.
 * SMB3 Missile Bills. Different Japanese name does not mean a split.
 * Biting Bullet Bill. It's a red homing Bullet Bill, I think it can safely be considered a Missile Bill.
 * Bouncing Bullet Bill. Their cannon aims at Yoshi, but the Bullet Bills themselves don't home in, so it's probably just a variation of Bullet Bill. It's been split already, and I think it should stay split.
 * Bathtub Bullet Bill. It's a blinky homing Bullet Bill, it should be merged to Bull's-Eye Bill.
 * Bathtub ones? Do you mean the blue ones? Or the black one? I'd oppose both. -- 12:16, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * Both. 12:20, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm giving my own two : While the New Super Mario Bros. Wii iteration might have been based off of one of the previous iterations, we can't say for sure about which one it got based and which one is coincidental. Same for Purple Bullet Bill, which had the normal Bullet Bill chasing in two iterations, namely Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3. Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that the Yoshi's New Island Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heyho are the same as the previous one, and it cannot be a coincidence, as it's a follow-up of a Yoshi game. If the Bull's-Eye Bill appeared in there, with disappearing after a few seconds, i'd have been convinced for the Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 iteration. -- 09:50, July 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, forgot to say... Under those circumstances, i'd prefer to trust the Super Mario Pia over Prima under a case-by-case basis. They were more competent than Prima to acknowledge that they properly first appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Regarding the "they were always considered to be separate from Bullet Bill in the West", actually no, that doesn't matter. Creator's intent, not Nintendo Power's mistake and/or Prima's incompetence. The distinction in the West doesn't matter an ounce. -- 04:27, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually, yes it does matter, because this is an American wiki. You were already told that Prima was not incompetent to take an enemy from SMB3 and give it a logical name. Creator's intent changes often, and either way we can't read the creators' minds, so Missile Bill might now be a Nyan Taco. 11:16, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yes, i'm aware that it's a logical name, but they didn't distinguish it from the previous iterations, and given the long gap, it's hard to tell wether they're still the same, replaced, or not based off of any iteration at all. -- 11:19, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Well, if they didn't distinguish them from other iterations, then they could be based off any iteration of Missile Bill. 11:41, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * @TheDarkStar, no, like i said, we don't know of which iteration it has been based off of. It could be based on 1, 2, or 3 iteration, but it is possible that it could even not have been based off of any. -- 11:43, July 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Well, since the SMB3 Missile Bills are the only iteration that flashes, the NSMBW Missile Bills are probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bills. 12:06, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Possibly, but we don't know wether it's still the same, or wether it's a replacement of the original. And do you mean just the Super Mario Bros. 3 iteration? -- 13:33, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * I mean it's probably based off the SMB3 Missile Bill in look, and based off Purple Bullet Bill or Biting Bullet Bill in behavior. It could even be based off all iterations. 12:50, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Excuse me, but how could it be based off of every iterations? -- 12:55, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * It shares its blinkiness with the SMB3 iteration, and it shares its tenacity and homing behavior with the other two. 13:01, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually, it's due to less technical restrictions that it moves in every angle. The similarity with the other two could easily be a coincidence. -- 13:17, July 12, 2019 (EDT)

(indent restart) That's exactly the case. The SMB3 Missile Bills only acted like they did due to technical restrictions, making it even more evident that these enemies are one and the same. 13:33, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * I was specifically talking about the Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Sunshine ones. And no, we can't say for sure that they are the same, or if it is a replacement. Best to contact Nintendo. -- 13:38, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * In fairness, are we sure that the original Missile Bills were supposed to be "homing" like the later ones? "Roundtrip" gives a specific idea that may not be the same as the eventual Bull's-Eye Bills. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:42, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given they only turn once they pass the player, I'd say that's pretty self-evident. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:53, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Either way, a proposal would probably be necessary at this point. 13:18, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * But then again, we can't say for sure wether it's still the same, or if it is a replacement of the original. Either way, better idea: Don't. Not only will it not pass given the margin of oppose votes right now (with people clearly not wanting to understand the situation), it'll just annoy people. -- 13:23, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * That was completely unnecessary. There are no differences between the "blinky chasy Bullet Bill that u-turns", the "blinky purple chasy Bullet Bill", and the "red homing Bullet Bill". There is absolutely no reason to split these, and if a proposal was made, I'd oppose. Requesting admin input. 13:48, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Ooh, ya almost had a point, then ya overstepped your boundaries by adding what was in the parentheses. I've half a mind to give you a courtesy reminder for that. I understand the situation perfectly, which is why I oppose splitting. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:53, July 15, 2019 (EDT)

Determine how to reorganize this page
So, given the above discussion, i'd like to open this proposal. This will determine how to reorganize this page. While most sources consider Missile Bill being the same as Bullet Bill, just with a different behavior (A Big Bertha/Boss Bass situation obviously), the Zen Hyakka treats them as a separate entity. 往復 キラー "Oufuku Killer", which, for future references, does the same with Porcupuffer, which explicitly states that it is a Cheep Cheep, which no guide has done before, besides the Daizukan. The Purple Bullet Bill is キラー(紫) "Killer (murasaki)", which confirms them to be a separate entity. We have Guided Bullet Bill split, so why not this one? The Yoshi's Island homing ones that disappear after a couple of second are considered as a color variant, which while it did the same for the Bouncing Bullet Bill and Relay Heihō, the latter two were more obvious to be definitely based off of each other.

Option 1: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same.

Option 2: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same, while the Yoshi's Island will be treated as a color variant.

Option 3: Missile Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the same as Bull's-Eye Bill, and the Yoshi's Island one will be treated as a color variant.

Option 4: Missile Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 5: Purple Bullet Bill will be the only to be considered to be a separate entity.

Option 6: Missile Bill will be considered to be just a Bullet Bill with a different behavior.

Option 7: Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be separate entities, while the Yoshi's Island iteration will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill

Option 8: Missile Bill and those Yoshi's Island red Bullet Bills will be considered to be color variation, while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 9: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, while Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 10: Missile Bill and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same thing while the Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be the proper appearance of the Bull's-Eye Bill.

Option 11: Missile Bill will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill, Purple Bullet Bill will be considered to be a separate entity entirely, and the Yoshi's Island ones will be considered to be the same as Bullet Bill as well.

Option 12: Literally that as well.

Proposer:

Deadline: June 7, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split both Missile Bill and Purple Bullet Bill into two separate articles

 * 1) Well, why are they here????

Don't do anything

 * 1) - First of all: ...Wow. Second: Every instance on the article feels like a Missile Bill to me. Even if they are named differently, the Purple Bullet Bills from Sunshine and the Biting Bullet Bills from Advance 3 still act like Missile Bills.
 * 2) Per Alex95. I see no reason to split Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill just because they've gone through a handful of Japanese names when they're obviously the same thing otherwise. Purple Bullet Bills, to me, are just Sunshine's weird variant of these guys, and I don't necessarily agree with the Guided Bullet Bill split. Finally, Missile Bills in Yoshi's Island are obviously a variant, since regular Bullet Bills actually do appear in that game, and it would be silly to merge them.
 * 3) Per Waluigi Time.
 * 4) Per my thoughts in the abov section. They all have the concept of "homing Bullet Bill" and the "U-turn Killer" was solely used once in a guidebook and likely forgotten about.

Comments
I know what you will ask me. Is this proposal really approriate with that amount of options? Well, at least, there are less options than the frog proposal before it got cut down to 3 options. -- 03:49, May 24, 2019 (EDT)


 * ...That's still too many. Don't just cram everything in one proposal, take it one step at a time. 04:16, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, i guess you're right...
 * In the scenario where Missile Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill are split, how do we account for the fact that Bull's-Eye Bill was known as Missile Bill prior to Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Prima's competence varies by guide. Remember the guide that called every type of big Bullet Bill "King Bill"? We can state that it is a mistranslation. -- 11:11, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * @Alex95, regarding your "Wow" part of your vote, yes. I'm aware that i added a little bit too much options, and i'm aware that this discussion hasn't been settled months ago. Also, out of curiosity, what names does it gives to those in Yoshi's Island: Super Mario Advance 3 in the guide? -- 11:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * It doesn't give a name in Nintendo Power. 11:22, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, what about your "if Missile Bill was spit, Purple Bullet Bill will be merged there" argument? -- 15:12, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * That's an if statement. I'd prefer it not be split at all, hence where I'm voting at this juncture. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:18, May 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Then, should i cancel the proposal to let out the above discussion play first, rather than rushing a proposal? -- 15:19, May 24, 2019 (EDT)