MarioWiki:Proposals

 http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/9/9/17/f_propcopym_9045f2d.png A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed with the signature code (~).

How To
 * 1) Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
 * 2) Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 * 3) Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
 * 4) Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
 * 5) Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 * 6) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
 * 7) At any time a vote may be rejected if at least three active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
 * 8) " # " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 * 9) At the deadline, the validity of each vote and the discussion is reviewed by the community.
 * 10) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as 'NO QUORUM'
 * 11) A user calls the result of the proposal and takes action(s) as decided if necessary, and archives the proposal.

The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after school, weekend nights).

So for example, if a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is indeed a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: , 27 2024 (EDT)

Question of the Day
I find the "Quote of the Moment" boring. I see something different every time, and yet see repeats just as much. How about having a "Question of the Day" on the main page instead? That might make viewers more interested. I've got quite a bit of questions for asking to start you guys up:
 * "Why does Peach's castle look different every game?"
 * "Why are there always new places in the Mushroom Kingdom replacing the old areas in each game?"
 * "Why does Bowser always kidnap Peach?"
 * "Why does Mario live in a small cottage instead of his castle?"
 * "What makes Wario so greedy?"
 * "What is the point to having Waluigi around?"
 * "When will Daisy be part in another adventure game?"
 * "What makes Bowser King of the Koopas?"
 * "Just because places are named after characters, does that mean that those particular characters own them? (examples: does Mario own Mario Circut, or does Luigi own Luigi's Engine Room?)
 * "Why are there so many mushrooms in places where they are not famous for mushrooms?" (examples: Flipside, Rougeport, Beanbean, etc;)
 * "Why was Donkey Kong taken out of the Mario Party sereis as a playable character?"
 * "Why do enemies have different names in some games?"
 * "How are Goombas able to hold things when they have no arms?"
 * "Why is Peach the "chosen one" for the game's plot (and therefore is kiddnapped)?"
 * "Why do Dry Bones that stand up wear gloves when their living counterparts do not?"
 * "When characters get flattened, why do they get TOTALLY flattened (as paper)? They are not made of putty!"
 * "What makes objects like platforms and blocks float in the air?"
 * "Why are there so many blocks?"
 * "Why are there items in one game have the same effect as other items in another game? (examples: Fright Jar-Fright Mask, Repel Jel-Boo's Sheet)"
 * "Do those spiked shells on Bowser, the Koopalings, or Koopa Kid mean ANYTHING?"
 * "Why does Luigi not live in his mansion?"
 * "Why did Prof. E. Gadd invent the Hydrogush to help Mario and Luigi when he could have just use F.L.U.D.D.?"
 * "Where are all the humans?"
 * "What would life have been like if Kamek succeeded in disposing the Mario Bros.?"
 * "If characters in the video game world are playing video games of past plots, would they be considered true stories?"
 * "What becomes of enemies that have been turned into eggs by Yoshi, then used?"

These are just a few that I was able to think up, but others may participate as well with their own questions. These are not questions of how much people know about the Marioverse games, just food for thought (so the title could be called "Questionable Question") One question a day, and these questions (from above) alone will last the feature 26 days. Each one can be put into the archives after the day is done, if wanted. So, what do you think? (please do not put the questions up on the main page if this proposal is to be put on the latest proposal section of the main page. It'll spoil everything.)

Proposer: Deadline: 20:00, Oct. 19

Yay

 * 1) I think it's a good idea and would be kind of fun.
 * 2) --&#91;&#91;User:Nasakid&#124;Zach121]] 22:25, 13 October 2007 (EDT) Agreed with LB And YAYZ

Nah

 * 1) That kind of thing belongs in The 'Shroom. 22:30, 13 October 2007 (EDT)
 * 2) -Quote of the Moment is more fun. If not we can do quote of the day.
 * 3) - Per Plumber.
 * 4) User:Ultimatetoad - meh..... i like quote of the day better, most of those questions have no real answers...
 * 00:08, 15 October 2007 (EDT) I've never said per before, but per Plumber... brrr... I don't like how that sounds. Those are really clever questions.  I'd like to see them discussed, particularly the mansion/castle question about the Mario Bros.  Did they sell those?  What I'm trying to say is it just doesn't seem like something that would work on the main page, but it will work SOMEwhere.  I'd go for the 'Shroom.  Maybe there could be user-submitted explanations to spark discussion?
 * 1) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Nah. Why? Well, because I have the answer to everything: It's videogames and they don't actually need answers. They have to be fun thats all.
 * 2) You ccan just look up this stuff

Comments

 * 1) I think we should also have a random trivia fact that picks a random fact instead of the did you know box thats already on the front page. --&#91;&#91;User:Nasakid&#124;Zach121]] 12:38, 14 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Now, THAT is a good idea!

Glowsquid
 * Oooh, ho, ho, ho! Me gusta mucho. (I like it, for those of you who just know English)  You feel like creating a proposal?  00:09, 15 October 2007 (EDT)


 * 1) Why not both?
 * 2) The answers to a few of your questions can be found in the intro of the SMB manual.
 * 3) Hel-LOOO? I know that we know most of those questions! It's just to make people think. Make theories for themselves. 20:26, 16 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Great, just what we need, more stupid theories(!) Just so you know, it is stupid theories like the ones you want to make that have ruined a few of the articles on this Wiki!
 * I think you're being a bit harsh DP. It's not like someone's going to read the question, come up with a theory, and immediately slap it on an article. And if they do, we can just fix the articles. Plus, not all the theories these questions might engender are necesarily going to be stupid, so that comment was unnecesary... - Walkazo

Videos For Articles
I propose we add videos to articles such as Mario Party Mini Games so we can see what the mini games are actually like instead of having to imagine what it would be like.

Proposer:http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6e/Rainbowyoshi.gif Super   Yoshi10 | Lookey This Deadline: 19:00, Oct. 23

Add Them

 * 1) Reasons given above. http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6e/Rainbowyoshi.gif[[Image:MP8 DryBones.jpg|50px]] Super   Yoshi10 [[Image:YoshiMP8art.png|20px]]| Lookey This[[Image:Black Yoshi Move.gif|30px]]
 * 2)  That's such a good idea!
 * 3)  We already have (my idea) but we can only use on userpages! Steve thinks that they have so bad quality but we put the videos on the articles but with links I don't see the difference!
 * 4) Yes. Not just mini-games, but videos for all sorts of articles. In fact, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING TODAY (they're under a section I called "Have a Look!")! Check out my first one on the Super Mario Bros. article. And I'll keep on finding more if I wan't to. All you have to do to stop me is deny this proposal. You know, I was thinking of doing this proposal anyway, but instead, I'm making it happen.

20:35, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

Don't Add Them

 * 1) The article already states what the Mini-game does. No need for videos. Besides, it would be VERY hard to upload movies.
 * 2) I have horribly slow internet, and webpages with movies would take way to long for my computer to load.
 * 3) We tried this long ago. Didn't work out so well. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 15:57, 16 October 2007 (EDT)
 * 4) Walkazo - Per Shyguy27. And even though my computer's not slow all the time, movies eat up SO much memory: I wouldn't be able to see images after three pages with videos, and three pages after that, the computer itself would stop working right. Other people are bound to have similar problems...
 * 5) Per Walkazo
 * 6) -Per DP. What's the point? This isn't a virtual reality video game.
 * 1) -Per DP. What's the point? This isn't a virtual reality video game.

Comments
Super Yoshi, PLEASE vote yourself! Also, FOR GOODNESS SAKES!! You didn't add any vote sections to this Proposal! Yeesh, anyone would have enough common sense to add the vote sections!

No, he gets MY vote!

Pokemon DP:Never heard of the Youtube tag?

Arend: I think Pokemon DP was talking about the fact that Super Yoshi didn't add any section to vote. Glowsquid
 * Glowsquid: It doesn't matter, movies don't seem very much needed on articles. I would say use that Youtube tag only on Userpages.
 * I agree, but I was only pointing out that it wouldn't be "it would be VERY hard to upload movies", like you said.

Glowsquid

Who was Oppose voter #2? PP

Shroobario I think u put ur vote on the wrong 1

All we have to do is put links on the article to the video. It's so simple everyone can do it. Everyone SHOULD do it if they want to help out.

20:35, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

You could do something like this on the 'Shroom, like a Video of the Issue?

I don't care if it says we can only use youtube on user pages! Just change that law. Oh and Shy guy 27 Just because you have slow internet doesn't mean we all have a slow computer! The wiki is not just centered on you you know! http://www.mariowiki.com/images/6/6e/Rainbowyoshi.gif Super   Yoshi10 | Lookey This
 * You can't simply change that rule. Porplemontage set that rule up for a reason! We can ONLY use the Youtube extension on Userpages, get used to it! And also, we must respect other Users computer issues. If they have a slow computer, that means Youtube extensions will slow down their computer and, yes, probably even freeze their computer. They will get REALLY mad at us for it. You are acting like a real brat.
 * DP, stop it with the flaming and the stuff. You activate Youtube by clicking first. Though I think videos should only be used on userpages and to show trailers of a game. 23:16, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Mr Benio: You can't do anything untill the proposal is done, not before it's archived

Sorry baby, but I put so many on (about 82 articles) already that there is no need to continue pondering this proposal. I gotta keep it up. Why not just give in and help me out?

Okay, snooty. Until this thing is accepted (which it will be), I'll be putting them on a Word Document sheet. Happy?
 * You shouldn't be too confident about it.

Glowsquid, You can't just say that since you've started spamming the article with video, the proposal is pointless, it's the community that should decide that, we can remove these link if the proposal don't pass.

Unoffical Music Articles
We have articles on Music on this Wiki. Quite a few of them are official CD's released by Nintendo, or some Company associated with Nintendo. BUT! It also seems we have articles on music that were NOT put on official CD, aka, In-game songs and themes (an example being List of Songs in Super Smash Bros. Melee, which is listing the music tracks in the actual game, but NOT the music tracks on the Official CD). I propose we remove all In-game songs and themes, and keep only the music articles on official soundtracks that were released by a REAL Company.

Proposer: Pokemon DP Deadline: 22:00, Oct. 24

Remove all In-game songs and themes

 * 1) I am the proposer, and my reasons are given above.

Keep Them

 * 1) If the songs were ripped from the game, they are official. 23:18, 17 October 2007 (EDT)
 * 2) Per Plumber.

Comments
I don't think we should completely get rid of them. There should be a track listing in the game's own article. -- Son of Suns
 * Heres a good compromise. Remove the lists, move them to the appropriate articles and replace the names with those from the official sound tracks. No official name? Then it's not on the list. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 14:00, 17 October 2007 (EDT)
 * We agree with SoS, the song's aren't officially named, but they are official. - Walkazo and PP
 * I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying.
 * 1. List of Songs in Super Mario Kart, move all that crap to Super Mario Kart (including download link).
 * 2. If the name of those tracks can't be verified, add a citation needed tag next to it.
 * 3. Run through all the articles about published game OSTs. Track for SMK have a name on one of those albums? Use that one in the article instead of X Theme. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:36, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

DP: We just meant that the somgs are conjectural, but still valid. It's a shame we can't get official names (same with all other conjectural information), but the info itself is still canocal and worthy of a place on the wiki. - Walkazo
 * OK, can we, instead, remove those In-Game articles and merge them with the actual game article? If so, you can completely ignore this Proposal.
 * But if an actual soundtrack has been released onto a CD, that article is kept, correct? -- Son of Suns
 * Tough call, I know how you want every named Mario-related thing to have an article, SoS, but how much could we really write about these songs? How long they are, what CDs and/or video games they're in, whose theme songs they are (if applicable), the actual lyrics... but what else? Maybe all the officially-named songs should be put in articles for the CDs they're relased on (to make sure we don't end up with a bunch of stubs that get deleted). And as DP said, all the unnamed songs can just be part of the game articles. - Walkazo

Mario Info
It seems we have a rule that we cannot have Non-Mario info on pages for characters/places/items from other series', like Super Sonic or Zelda. However, we should be able to give at least a short back story of what happened in other games, doing so would make a lot of the articles make a lot more sense to viewers who are not fans of that series. I propose that we should be able to do this, AND include some images from previous Non-Mario games where the Place/Item/Character appeared(This may include some articles for things that would not get an article because they are from another series, even if they are shown/implied in a Mario game).
 * Proposer: Uniju :D
 * Deadline: 20:00, Oct. 19

Support

 * 1) I am the proposer, and my reasons are given above.
 * 23:20, 17 October 2007 (EDT) I agree with Uniju.

Oppose

 * 1) Were not allowed at first, so I agree with the old rule
 * 2) We already provide a brief backstory on the character. VERY brief summaries are allowed, and have already been used. Also, we should only provide Images from Mario-based games (The Cameos articles excluded).
 * 3)  Per DP
 * 4) Son of Suns - We should only provide info that appears in Mario games. We don't want this becoming a general Nintendo/video game wiki.  Links should be provided to Wikipedia and other video game wikis so users can find more info about a non-Mario subject.
 * 5) Non-Mario related character articles should only list information that is relevant to said character being included in the Mario Wiki. Other information, such as a brief rundown of Zelda's history, would be out of place. Please see further comments below.
 * 6) - For Smash Bros. characters, the trophies of them and trophies of other elements of their series should provide enough story to put together.

Comments
Mr. Guy, you don't agree because an existing rule says otherwise? Thats the reason this is a proposal, and I don't think thats a valid reason. -_-'
 * And DP: Like I said in the proposal, most people who are NOT fans of that series will need to haunt down info from other places to understand any of it. So we should be able to show more info than we do, and theres nothing about Sonic Adventure on the Sonic article, or Ocarina of Time on the Zelda article, its against the rules to add that info.

I see Sonic as an exception to the rule. Sonic and Mario have a non-game rivalry that started way back in 1992. That might be something to place an article about. -- Chris 04:10, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

In theory this proposal sounds like a good idea. But as everyonme else has said, this is Super Mario Wiki. We don't need to know what happened in Ocarina of Time to understand Zelda and Links' role in the Marioverse. And as Cobald said, for Super Smash. Bros. characters the trophies are enough to understand some stuff about thier personalities and some aspects of their personal history (Link is brave, Link saves Zelda a lot, etc.). If people want to find out more, the Internet's a big place, and it's not our job to tell people about Zelda or Earthbound or whatever, just Mario. - Walkazo
 * A line could be added at the end of a non-Mario characters article linking to Wikipedia or whatever series specific wiki is available. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 13:38, 13 October 2007 (EDT)
 * I see where you're coming from, Uniju. We should provide information to an extent.  Making a page as dedicated as Mario for example would be going overboard, obviously.  I think we're pretty good as it is now. :3  We should link to other Wikis, though.  How about one link to Wikipedia and one link to a specialty Wiki using the same format as Uncyclopedia?  Here's a couple of good Wikis:

00:21, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Zelda Wiki from Wikia
 * Animal Crossing from Wikia <--yes, Uniju, I am being biased! You gotta admit that the two of us can carry that Wiki, though.  :D
 * Bulbapedia... whatever their URL is.
 * Might I add, there is also a Nintendo Wiki.
 * This seems like a good place to make a note about crosslinking. IE: Mario links to Mario, which also has a link back to Mario. This keeps the flow of information fresh. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 15:59, 16 October 2007 (EDT)
 * That would be great if Wikipedia would allow it. I've seen links to us get deleted, though.  Even though we rock socks.  20:29, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Ashley 'n' Red
The page Ashley and Red deal about these two WarioWare character, however I think the page should be split. Unlike say, Macho Grubba who is simply Grubba with a new alias and powers, Ashley and Red are two completly different characters. I say that the page should be split in two, one for Ashley, and one for Red (Demon).

Proposer Glowsquid Deadline Oct 19 21:00 EDT

Split

 * 1) Glowsquid - I am the proposer and my reasosn are given above.
 * 2) Son of Suns - Surely you can guess. Anything officially named deserves an article in my book.
 * 3) Walkazo - Yep. Seperate characters, seperate articles. And while we're at it, Dribble and Spitz and Kat and Ana should be split up too.
 * 4) I don't play WarioWare, so I don't know much about those two, but still, I say we should split them into their own articles. Also, Dribble and Spitz and Kat and Ana should be split as well, as Walkazo said.
 * 00:47, 15 October 2007 (EDT) I was just thinking this. Kat and Ana have separate articles, too.  Oh, and these two are so much more different than any of the "character pairs" from the Mario & Luigi series.  They have distinct personalities and have more than cameo appearances.
 * 1) Bombarde Waluigi I agree they should be split. I mean, when you look at other characters, such as 9-Volt and 18-Volt they are 2 different articles, even though the article clearly states that they have been pairs in most every WarioWare Game.

Oppose

 * 1) These kinds of minor characters who are rarely seen without the other look better together. Gramma Red and Gramma Green, and the Millennium Star are examples of such. 22:29, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

Comments
Plumber, looking at your examples, I noticed that they've only appeared in one game. I think they've been left combined because of their significance to the series. Take the Grandmas Bros. for example. Their personalities are nearly identical and they've only appeared in one game. Because of how little you can write about them separately (ie they have different voices), you can justify the combination. The thing with Ashley and Red is that they have completly separate personalities and actions during the multiple games they have appeared in. Still, if they had similar personalities I would say that, by all means, we could combine them. Good point. 01:05, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Hmm... you're right. 23:21, 17 October 2007 (EDT)

Add Fan Flash Series
I've seen on Wikipedia an Super Mario Bros. Z article. Now it's deleted, but on another language (French for example), that article is still there. I think popular fan flash series, such as Super Mario Bros. Z shall be added. But what do YOU think? Shall we add them or not?

Proposer: Deadline: Sunday, October 21, 15:00 (EDT)

ADD THEM!!!!

 * 1) I'm Proposer
 * 2) Yes it's a popular cartoon and It has to do with Mario, so I don't see why not. User:Gowser
 * 3) Yes add them! I remember in one of the episodes credits it said that they got permission by Nintendo and Sega.-Mcoolister
 * 4) It would be nice to add an article based on a popular web show. But sadly, as I can tell from the amount of posts below, I can say, no. Sorry SMBZ lovers. =( Superjustin 18:48, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

Don't add them...

 * 1) Give it a little while longer, and that article will be deleted on the French site as well. We are an encyclopedia based on REAL Mario content, not Mario content that fans of the series have made.
 * 2) Supertroopa As Pokemon DP just mentioned this is supposed to be a site full of the content of the real Mario series of games created by Nintendo and it wouldn't work out with the articles full of the real content and the content by fans.
 * 3) There's going to be a Wiki for it. Join that even though it is not out yet it will be soon. :P
 * 4) Son of Suns - It's unofficial information, and not needed. Plus, I think the 'Shroom has a section devoted to unofficial Mario flash media.
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6)  Per All
 * 7) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif This wiki is about Mario games, comics, movies and official stuff. Unofficial stuff is a no.
 * 8) Snack 12:33, 15 October 2007 (EDT) No way. Just because it is popular and relativly well known, doesn't mean it belongs here. Put it on Fantendo or something.
 * 9) Walkazo and PP - Per all. Besides, there have been articles on fan movies in the past (i.e. Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom) and they all got deleted. Also, some stuff in the Flash movies might be a bit mature for the Wiki (RotMK had blood and gore, for example).
 * 10) huntercrunch Per SoS. This was proposed i assume only because you are a fan yourself. If it isn't official information, then it has no place here on the wiki.
 * 11) they are not official.
 * 12) Booster No. Even though I enjoy the series, fanworks aren't something we cover.
 * 13) Okay, I'm finally saying no to this one, just because I realized how much trouble there would be in determining which fan creations should be covered and which should not be.  Sorry, Arend...
 * 14) Sorry,Arend,but there must be THOUSANDS. And half of them are innapropriate. So I say no.( Toadbert101 |[[Image:TBPaper.PNG|30px]]| Give a yell |Sez:) 23:52, 17 October 2007 (EDT)
 * 15) Bad idea. If something like this got an article, even fanart artists would end up thinking they can make their own pages too, and like the post above me said, a lot of the stuff can get inappropiate sometimes. There's a lot of youngsters on cyberspace too, so they might get confused and think articles like these are official.
 * 16) This wiki is about official Nintendo/Mario info. Adding these would be like adding fan characters and places. Per everyone else, except TB with the fact that some are innapropriate.
 * 1) Bad idea. If something like this got an article, even fanart artists would end up thinking they can make their own pages too, and like the post above me said, a lot of the stuff can get inappropiate sometimes. There's a lot of youngsters on cyberspace too, so they might get confused and think articles like these are official.
 * 2) This wiki is about official Nintendo/Mario info. Adding these would be like adding fan characters and places. Per everyone else, except TB with the fact that some are innapropriate.

Comments about this one
Arend, you should vote yourself.


 * Mcoolister: I think they were joking. I mean, did we get permission from Nintendo to make this site...and did we really need permission? http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif


 * Nintendo and Sega own the copyrights to those characters and ideas. The fan videos were providing attribution to prevent copyright infringement.  They are not official sources.  We do the same thing here with our general disclaimer. -- Son of Suns


 * Oh thanks SoS for clearing that up. http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif Paper Jorge! I give paper cuts so stand back! http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9276/papertoycf7.gif

Huntercrusher, I'm sure you know that people usually write about one topic over another because of personal preference. Just because a certain idea started as a result of preference should not be grounds for bashing it. I'm kind of on the fence about this... I'm not sure my vote would matter either way, though. 19:07, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
 * Shyguy: Those Comics are official Comics made by official companies. They belong here. Fan Flash series made by, well, fans, do not count as official!

Who was "add" voter #5? PP
 * It says "Shyguy27"

Sorry about the fifth "add" vote I submitted. I took it off.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A WIKI FOR IT!!! JOIN IT. It will be on soon but not now so you just wait! OK!?!? Now end this proposal. And here's the link. It is on the Main Panel if you can't find it. Sheesh!!!

Whoa! 19 votes! This one has been voted on alot! PP
 * Actually its 20 now :P, Also Arend your reason to add it is because its on another wiki. So should we add all Fan stuff from Fantendo too? These Fan Flashes are Fan Fictions!
 * That raises an interesting point. Flash videos take time, skill and patience to create, but so do comix, fan art, and written fanfiction. If we include Flash series, people might start asking why only include one of many media and others might get offended and demand we include it all. We want to keep this site canocal, so we should try to keep all the fanon out or we could get swamped by it. - Walkazo