Talk:Cannon

3 images are enough, arent they?
 * Cannons had quite different appearances throughout the games. There could be more images, however that would require more text or a gallery. - 17:17, 12 February 2009 (EST)
 * Cannons vary through the games, so couldn't they each be given a seperate article?
 * They vary in appearance, but they serve the same purpose and are largely inanimate objects. The only thing I'd call into question on this page is the cannon from Sunshine, because it shoots Bullet Bills. That may suggest it's a Bill Blaster, and that it should be merged to that page. Otherwise, it's a general subject so it's fine where it is. Redstar 14:01, 7 December 2009 (EST)

There are three types of cannons in the article: the cannon that shoots cannonballs, the cannon enemy that shoots cannonballs, and the cannons that shoot you to a new world. Does anyone suggest splitting these into different articles? (There are so many different cannons!!!)

Different Article
The different types of cannons

1. The ones that take the player to other worlds 2. The ones that fire cannonballs

should be in a different article.


 * They are already in two different articles. The ones which take you to other worlds are called Warp Cannons. AND for the millionth time please sign your comments with 4 tildes (~). 05:49, 27 August 2012 (EDT)

Mario & Luigi Bowsers inside story Cannons
AS in the title shouldn't the cannons from these games be included? - Cubeguy(talk)

Mario Kart Cannons?
There are lots of pages for "Cannon", but I cann't found one for the cannons in the Mario Kart series, like the ones in Maple Treeway and Airship Fortress! Should we make a new page for them?
 * Hmmm.... That's an idea. We could make a section for the Mario Kart series instead. Though I want to see what others think. - 05:02, 4 June 2014 (EDT)

Split Red Cannon from this article?
Should we split the Red Cannon from this article, seeing as how we have multiple Super Mario Maker/Super Mario Maker 2 variants split and/or planned to split? The name comes from Super Mario Maker 2. -- 11:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * The only thing that's different between the two is cannonball speed and color. Opposing. 12:09, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * What about this? -- 12:10, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * That makes no difference since red Cannons can't be customized in the same way that Bull's-Eye Blasters can. 12:13, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Their internal filename is: https://pastebin.com/6M4gKbmt SenkanHoudaiRed, wonder about the Japanese name though. -- 12:17, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * It doesn't matter. Different Japanese name does not mean a split. 12:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm out of arguments for the moment. -- 12:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * It is named separately, and we do split the Koopa Shell object colors (though not Koopa Troopa enemy colors themselves). If Bull's-Eye Blasters were still called Bill Blasters in Super Mario Maker 2 or identified as "Red Bill Blasters", would we have salvaged the article? LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:30, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * If it was Red Bill Blaster, yes, but not if it wasn't distinguished. -- 08:53, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * And they're officially named. They're not the same cannon. -- 10:20, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, they were not distinguished until Super Mario Maker 2. -- 15:09, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * Look, how about this: The Koopas are considered to be the same, while the cannons are considered to be separate. I'm aware that they can't be customized the same way the Bull's-Eye Blaster can. They are two different things. We don't merge two different things. -- 12:06, August 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * They're NOT the same cannon. This seems like not spitting Fire Koopa Clown Car from Koopa Clown Car. -- 09:01, August 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's not that they're not the same cannon, it's that there are practically no differences between the cannons. 16:07, August 11, 2019 (EDT)

Delete the Warp Cannons information?
There is already a specific page for those. It is not useful to have the same information twice. adn they are not the same. WHy are they still here? I can add a disambiguation header so it is way more useful than having clones. 1JUST1 (talk) 17:30, December 31, 2020 (EST)
 * Sure, there is a specific page, but I don't see what's wrong about having a brief mention that cannons of some sort do appear in a game. Why focus on Warp Cannons? Why should Pipe Cannon, Turnip Cannon, and other named cannons that have their own pages remain? 17:11, January 1, 2021 (EST)

Article Split Proposal: the enemy cannon vs. the interactive cannon
The utilization of a "cannon" in the Mario series is not unilateral. There is an "enemy cannon" (which I am bolding here for emphasis, not because it is an officially recognized name) that fires projectiles (like Cannonballs or water balloons in Super Mario 64) to harm the player (similar to a Bill Blaster), and there is an "interactive cannon" that is a manipulative tool for level progression (similar to a Launch Star). Outside of the Super Mario Maker games (which are structurally different from the Super Mario series "proper") the interactive cannons do not become accessible from appropriating enemy cannons. The closest comparison I can think of is "The Beach Cannon's Secret" from Super Mario Sunshine, where Mario gains access to a cannon after defeating the Monty Mole on Pinna Beach, but: (a.) the Monty Mole is controlling different artillery - a tank that shoots Bullet Bills - so it cannot be compared to the "enemy cannon"; and (b.) the Beach Cannon does not even launch the player anywhere, it is just an entrance point for a secret course like a Warp Pipe. The only "interactive cannon" in the game is the one that launches the player to Pinna Park and it has no connection to the Monty Mole tanks other than a superficial resemblance (which mechanically makes it comparable to the Warp Cannons of the New Super Mario Bros. games). In Super Mario Galaxy, the two iterations of the cannons even co-exist and look completely different (compare this screenshot of the enemy cannon to this model of the interactive one). The distinctiveness between these two objects, one an obstacle and one a tool, makes it seem more appropriate to seperate the information into at least two different articles (I cannot speak on whether or not "Cannon" and "Red Cannon" should be two separate articles, but the discussion point above is aimed to accomplish that). The options I recommend would be: Let me know what you think! - Nintendo101 (talk) 11:39, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * (My preference): migrate information pertaining to the "enemy cannon" to the Cannonball article. The relationship between the artillery and its ammunition are more directly tied to each other than the Bullet Bill and Bill Blaster, because the Bullet Bill has more independent utility in many games (like Mario Kart and some 2D levels in the Super Mario games; or the fact that they can be launched from other things, like the aforementioned Monty Mole tank in Sunshine). I do not think there is ever a situation where you have a "Cannonball" without an "enemy cannon", so consolidating the information in one article does not seem inappropriate.
 * Split the article into "Cannon (obstacle)" (for the enemy cannon) and keep "Cannon" just for the interactive tool.
 * Do nothing. I guess it's tolerable but not preferable :/

Proposer: Deadline: April 2, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Move enemy cannon info to Cannonball

 * 1) Per proposal.

Split the article between different types

 * 1) Super Mario Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros. Wii's enemy and usable cannons are so totally different that having them in the same section is essentially comparing apples and oranges. Sunshine may have them using the same models, but their roles are still mutually-exclusive.
 * 2) One is a tool, the other is an obstacle. There is some overlap but it's too occasional to have both concepts explained on the same page. The current article should be split the same way as Fireball and Fireball (obstacle).

Oppose

 * 1) - Opposing because they are just cannons, regardless of who uses them. I suppose the Cannonball article could be expanded a bit, and the Super Mario 64 equivalent would be Water Bombs, but we don't need to split a common object based on who uses it.
 * 2) Per Alex95
 * 3) This is exactly like the Banana case, as in it's not as straightforward as it appears to be. In fact, the Super Mario series alone has both stunt and ammunition cannons, meaning that it's pretty much treated interchangeably either way you slice it.
 * 4) The article seems alright as it is to me.
 * 5) I think having all cannon-related information in one page suits better than splitting off every single cannon for their inevitable different roles they play in different games.

Comments
You can read more about how to format proposals properly at Proposals. 12:17, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * I appreciate this. This is the first time I have made a formal proposal on the wiki and I was unsure of the correct format. - Nintendo101 (talk) 12:24, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

In fact, I think Cannon (Mario Kart series) should be merged with this article. 18:50, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

Just one question, does the intention of this proposal tie into the split template that is already on the page in any way? 21:46, March 19, 2021 (EDT)


 * The header is about a different proposal. However, I think it is kind of difficult to commit to that topic without addressing this one first because it is dependent on first establishing whether this article should be about Cannons is a broad sense (anything in the games that is localized as a "cannon") or a narrow sense (just the enemy cannons, and from there the decision to split it between "Cannon" and "Red Cannon" makes a little more sense).


 * This is likely a consequence of interpretation, but my proposal derives from an observation that the cannons that fire Cannonballs in the games can be categorized as proper mobs due to their function in-game and direct relationship to their artillery. They therefore have more in common with enemy characters than they do with mushroom platforms, warp pipes, and other more generalized objects the player interacts with. My preference is not to split the article in two, but rather redistribute the information because it feels more accurate that way: material about "enemy cannons" is best in the Cannonball article, and this one can be dedicated to other uses for it. - Nintendo101 (talk) 22:30, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

I'm pretty split on this proposal myself. I can see both arguments being made for both sides and either is viable: I think there is a case where there is a point of differentiation between, say, the cannons from Super Mario Bros. 3 that launch bombs at you and the one in Mario Party 7 that launches you to another part of the board: both have distinct utilities and players approach both of these differently. However, there are indeed instances that muddies the waters in which cannons can be used for both functions (ie taking over a cannon from an enemy and the waterbombs from Super Mario 64 that use the same canon design) and that their design is generic enough to allow for both. I'll abstain from voting, but I think right now, I'm leaning towards oppose just because of the intertwined functionality some cannons provide. 15:47, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * In SM64, though, the cannon the Bob-omb uses can't be used by the player (at least in that mission, can't remember if in later ones it can). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:18, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I've noticed, but they both use the same design, and yes, the cannon can be used by the player in later missions. I swore the canon with the same design from Super Mario 64 also appeared in a Mario Party title too. 17:24, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I played through SM64 recently; Bob-omb Battlefield is the only course to feature cannons useable by Mario and ones used by enemies to fire projectiles, and in this context they are mutually-exclusive (similar to Sunshine). (e.g. The cannon used by the black Bob-omb enemy on the mountain fires water balloons and cannot be used; the other two cannons are available to the player). The only potential edge case is in Bob-omb Battlefield's first mission, where the Bob-ombs are at war and everyone is firing water balloons from their cannons. However, from my perspective, this is negligible because there is never an instance within a mission where an enemy cannon transitions into becoming a tool. The Bob-omb Buddy cannons only become useable in the second missions onward; the enemy Bob-omb's cannon remains a hazard. In every other course, the cannon is only a tool useable by Mario. (Water balloons are also in the multiplayer course in SM64DS, but they just... rain from the sky sometimes.) - Nintendo101 (talk) 17:53, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'm pretty sure the cannon on the King Bob-omb mountain becomes useable (not in the first mission), or that it just sits there without anyone using it past the first mission. Been a while since I played 64 DS. 17:57, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'm fairly certain that's not the case (as finding the enemy Bob-omb who operates the cannon to throw him off the mountain is a morbidly childish thing I do in every mission for Bob-omb Battlefield, and Water Bombs remain a projectile hazard in every mission of Bob-omb Battlefield), but I can double check in a couple days. - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:12, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * Probably not within the same mission as you said, even if you do the funny thing of killing the Bob-omb next to the cannon, but it does become usable in later missions. I think it's safe to assume it's technically the same cannon. Even take a look at this image, there's no cannon visible in this shot where it would normally rest on. 18:14, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'm not a Super Mario 64 savant, but couldn't its absence come from the draw distance limitations of the software? Sometimes objects pop in and out based on how far the camera is from them. If that is not a factor, and the cannon becomes useable, wouldn't you still see it mounted in the ground behind Mario in this screenshot anyways? - Nintendo101 (talk) 18:25, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I did consider the possibility of draw distance but I also remember wasting a session blasting back and forth between the island and having fun with that. I'm also watching videos, though the videos always take the route on the rock than go on the mountain. Our wiki entry Shoot to the Island in the Sky even mentions that you can use that cannon. 18:28, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * I can tell you that water bombs fall in all missions of 64, but do not do so in all missions of 64 DS. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:42, March 20, 2021 (EDT)

That fireball example isn't the best because the fireball page does list the ones that come out of enemies. Apparently, the fireball (obstacle) page lists only standalone fireballs that don't require being thrown by another entity. 21:37, March 20, 2021 (EDT)