User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick/Archive 1

Going to be gone for a week
June 3-11, on vacation. Not sure when I'll have internet access.

Hey
Hey, its Shokora from The Spriters Resource. Good to see you here!

19:15, 10 July 2017 (EDT)


 * Ah, figured it was you! Hello!

18:27, 10 July 2017 (CT)

Categories
With this edit in mind, I would like to inform you that, per MarioWiki:Categories, pages should only have the deepest level of an applicable category. With Bēro in mind, since it already has Category:Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins Enemies, it should not also have Category:Enemies. 20:25, 14 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Whoops, sorry, I hadn't noticed that that was on there already. I guess I'm a klutz sometimes ^-^;; 19:29, 14 July 2017 (CT)
 * It's all good, it's all good! There are a lot of rules to keep in mind as you're editing, so it's okay if you slip up now and then! :D 21:45, 14 July 2017 (EDT)

Fire Squid
I'll most likely have it done early next week.

02:49, 15 July 2017 (EDT)


 * OK. And by the way, I know a bunch about cephalopods due to doing a research paper on them in 7th grade, and that's an octopus, not a squid ;). Is that an official name? 01:54, 15 July 2017 (CT)


 * Right! Well I guess I'll have to change it then ;) And no, I had to make up the names of like 80% of those enemies. For the official names, the sources are the instruction manual, Nintendo Power and what was revealed from an email to a Nintendo of America employee.


 * 03:04, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Wasn't sure since no page means no references XD. I remember the Email, but it was just the bosses, wasn't it? 02:13, 15 July 2017 (CT)


 * It was also Big Blob and Face Ball!


 * 04:47, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Ah yeah. I remember using Face Ball to surprise my Skype group several months ago, hehe. 03:55, 15 July 2017 (CT)

"why does this page even exist?"
The Big Boos were split because of this talk page proposal. 19:02, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know, and the points made don't really make a lot of sense when you get right down to it, due to the amount of enemies with behavioral differences in the Paper games, as I pointed out below it. I'd like to propose they be re-merged, but I'm not sure I'm ready enough to propose something. Oh, another thing I was wondering, is it OK for me to keep using Central Time? 18:05, 16 July 2017 (CT)
 * As long as you can properly explain your point, you're set to make a proposal. The rules are laid out on the Proposals page, but really, everything that you need to do is outlined through the basic proposal format. I'll still stand by my proposal, but you're more than free to counter it. On the subject of times, whatever pops up when you use ~ is perfectly acceptable, but when you're submitting a proposal, the deadline must be set according to GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). Conveniently, when you use, the current time in GMT shows up. So long as you set the deadline to two weeks after that date, you're set. 19:19, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

Super Mario enemy project
Are you done with the Super Mario enemy project? Wow. That whole thing just took its own course after the first edit. It was pretty much an unofficial project (at least, I think so). And plus, thanks for the help. I hope I was of use to you. 20:58, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
 * NP, and yes it was an unofficial project XD. Thank you too, I had actually forgotten Monty Mole until I saw you put that in there. And Spike Trap was quite well-written, congratulations on that :). 20:05, 16 July 2017 (CT)

Luigi Edit
HAHAHAHAH! Mario is Missing?! You've got to be kidding me! That game may have been the first official time that Luigi is the main protagonist, but I think the fans feel differently. And while I can't say what the fans feel, what I CAN say is that piece of an educational game did NOT help Luigi at all. In fact, it even screwed him even MORE into the number 2 and sidekick position! It was only Luigi's Mansion that was Luigi's first legitimate role as the main protagonist. And I was just trying to say how Super Mario Bros. screwed Luigi into the number 2 role in the first place, while Mario became a legend. I want to state that in a more informal role and less melo-dramatic role. I mean, that IS very important, right? 20:58, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Hey, I had a lot of fun with NES Mario is Missing and Mario's Time Machine when I was younger ;-; 20:08, 17 July 2017 (CT)

I guess. After all, you're what, 19 years old? (IT SAYS IT ON YOUR FRONT PAGE!) So I think you probably would have. But forgetting about Luigi's Mansion vs Mario is Missing, isn't it still important to say that Super Mario Bros. made Mario a legend and screwed Luigi into being a sidekick? 21:12, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know it says that, I put that there just last night >.> . If you want to be less melodramatic, don't do things like enigmatically saying "but this came at a cost" without explaining it, nor repeatedly saying in various ways how much It Sucks To Be Weegee. 20:15, 17 July 2017 (CT)

Common enemies and obstacles
First of all, I want to say good job on the work you've done on the "Common enemies and obstacles" chart on the Super Mario (series) page. But I have a suggestion, specifically surrounding the "common" part of the title. Enemies and obstacles like Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Thwomp, etc. are fine, as they appear frequently in the series. But do we really need to list Butterfly or Graffiti or other one time appearances? And do we really need to list every different variant of Goombas, Hammer Bros., and Cheep Cheep? Might as well include at the top. 21:29, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I think they're fine, Alex95, but they have to be SUPER MARIO enemies, not Paper Mario enemies or some other crap. So Atomic Boos are a big no. 21:31, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That's not what I meant. The list is going too in depth on the amount of enemies being listed, to the point where it seems excessive. A "Related enemies/obstacles:" line underneath the enemy could work. 21:34, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm including enemies that are massively common within one game. Because a newcomer to the series could see any one of them at numerous occasions and be curious. Especially with enemies like Gooble and other Sunshine-one shots that appear quite frequently within it (especially the grafitti itself, given that the goop generators and force fields are outright alive). Butterfly was added primarily because it was common in SM64, but few people actually know of its destructive (and quite frankly hilarious) defense mechanism. However, I'd understand if the list were moved to its own page, with it being linked to the main SMB series page.
 * I get what it's going for, listing the enemies in the main Super Mario series. In that case, should the header instead be changed to simply "Enemies and obstacles"? 21:45, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Possibly, but I don't want it to go to the depth of including every one-game one-appearance enemy from Super Mario Land 2, which a title like that could lead to. Perhaps "Notable Enemies and Obstacles"? 20:47, 17 July 2017
 * I still feel like the table could use some more thought, but how it is now, "common" isn't really the right word to use now. "Notable" sounds good. 21:50, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

Admins have decided that the table needs to contain only the common enemies seen throughout the Super Mario series, not any of the one-shots. The separate page itself has already been deleted. 15:58, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Proposals
Just a heads up, when making proposals, be sure to add above the proposal so it is categorized under Category:Unresolved talk page proposals and the deadline is added. Additionally, the proposal should be added to the list of TPPs on the Proposals page. 17:21, 18 July 2017 (EDT)
 * OK, I was looking under "Proposals" under Community to the left and hadn't seen that part. I do now, it was in a different section. 16:23, 18 July 2017 (CT)

Mario's Time Machine
To be honest, have not played the NES version of Mario's Time Machine at all, partially because I'm already working with the SNES and PC versions and mostly because I didn't realize that it had several points in common with the other version. Thank you very much for filling in the gaps! I'll try to pick up the game myself at some point so that you won't need to scurry behind me anymore. 16:06, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Thanks, it's been a long time since I played it, but I remember a few things about it. 13:09, 19 July 2017 (CT)

RE: Coverage
This discussion web is going to get confusing. I suggest following my talk page or, preferably the latter. I was hoping to keep this between Alex95 and me. Doesn't look like it. -- 18:48, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Probably because what's going on is such a horrific departure from the MarioWiki I've known and loved for nearly a decade. I'm going to defend what I think is right quite staunchly on this. 17:58, 19 July 2017 (CT)

HEY, DOC! You're not alone! I agree with you strongly! I've got your back! 19:02, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Thank you :) 18:03, 19 July 2017 (CT)

2D, 2.5D, 3D
Just because it's a 2D game with 3D graphics doesn't make it a 2.5D game. The term is used for games like Super Smash Bros. or Yoshi's Story, where the player is limited to four directions, but the camera is angled to show a wider plane. New Super Mario Bros. games do not do that. 19:22, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Actually. there is no clear-cut definition. It typically refers to 3D graphics on a 2D plane, be they models or prerendered, like in DKC, or 2D graphics on a 3D plane, like in mode 7 based games, like Super Mario Kart. 18:24, 19 July 2017
 * You just gave yourself some perfect examples to the contrary. Donkey Kong Country has its camera angled where you can see the tops of the ground, rather than a ledge Super Mario Bros.-like. I think Super Mario Kart would also fall under 2.5D as it's not either 2D or 3D exactly. Either way, New Super Mario Bros. doesn't look like those. 19:27, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I was just going by the Mario series >.> Sonic 4 and Sonic Rush are other examples. Klonoa games are another example, even the Gameboy Advance ones. Paper Jam is an example. All the NSMB games are examples. There is no clear-cut definition; it's a mixture of 2D and 3D. 18:29, 19 July 2017
 * Wikipedia says that 2.5D are visuals with angled three graphics, like Kirby 64 and again Super Smash Bros. ...Yet goes on to say games with 3D graphics in a 2D plane are considered 2.5D as well, even listing games like New Super Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong Country in the same category. I don't get it, but I guess I'll go with it. 19:36, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It's pretty easy to understand. If it's kind of 2D and kind of 3D at the same time, it's 2.5D. It desn't matter in what way it is on either of them, it's really just a generic term. 18:54, 19 July 2017

Super Mario series debunked
Hey man, I want to say, you've done a hell of an amazing job with the "Common and notable enemies in the Super Mario series" project. You really deserve to be an administrator just for that. And as before, I hope I helped you out a lot. That thing was AWESOME! 20:44, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Heh, thanks. It'll probably get trimmed, but if it does, I can at least still look at it in the history. 19:46, 19 July 2017 (CT)

RE: Coverage
On 's talk page, you said:

Thank you for ending that.

I'm kind of confused why you said that. Did you think I was doing something wrong? It was a civil discussion that didn't result in bad behavior but rather a disagreement. I'm sure that felt the same way. Hope to clarify that. -- 23:41, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * What you were suggesting was rather upsetting, I myself actually did find out about a lot of other franchises thanks to this site's coverage. A main reason this site needs that much coverage? Number one, almost all those other franchises are part of the Mario Universe or owe their existence to Mario, and number two, of the franchises in crossovers like Smash Bros., Mario is the most popular and expansive. Would have been far preferable if the discussion had never happened in the first place. 22:44, 19 July 2017 (CT)
 * Actually, Mario owes DK because Donkey Kong (game) was the first game, as I pointed out in my talk page, but that's besides the point. I never considered to be the ultimate Nintendo wiki, which is what I think you are suggesting. I would leave that up to the Wikis participating in NIWA and Nintendo Wiki. No doubt Mario had an impact on Nintendo's existence. Just don't be afraid of disagreement. It's perfectly OK to have discussions like the one you participated in. Happens here all the time. As long as it doesn't result in bad behavior, everything said is fair game. -- 00:07, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Template:MTM
About the recent template you just made... I was already working on it. It's still incomplete, as I'm adding to it as I progress through the game, and I didn't want to create it with so much missing information. I'm not mad at you or anything, and I really should have made it myself a long one ago, just wanted to explain things. I'm on mobile now and I really need to get some sleep soon, so I won't be able to quickly respond to anything, but I do have one concern about the template: among the locations you listed was "Kitty Hawk". Obviously, in real life, that was the location of the Wright Brothers' monumental flight, but in-game, I don't think that the location that Mario visits is ever specifically called "Kitty Hawk". Who knows, maybe for one day the Brothers' plane was in another town for a couple of days and that's when Mario time travels there. It's unlikely, obviously, but to say that it's definitely Kitty Hawk is technically speculation. 01:29, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * If memory serves me right, it physically looked like Kitty Hawk. 00:31, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Also, looking at your templates, Paradise isn't in the NES version. Bowser just kinda runs off. 00:33, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Also, I think one of the message blocks says it's Kitty Hawk. 00:36, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I just recently went through the game myself, but I'm really sleepy, so I'm likely not remembering it properly. Another thing, though, with the "treasures": in-game, they're only called by a short name. It's not the "Olympic Torch", it's just a "Torch", and it's not "Armstrong's US Flag", it's just a "Flag". The wiki tends to be strict about names, and when the name of each object is spelled out as Mario picks them up, there's not much wiggle room. 01:46, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Yes, but the Current "Flag" article was solely about Ghandi's. I was actually going by the names listed in the main article. 00:47, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * The Gandhi flag article can have its identifier moved to something that would allow the US flag to also have an article without issue. Though names are strict, identifiers can be created and changed as needed. 01:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Really, all I can say is, you shoulda told me in your previous message, when it became clear I was interested in the series. I in no way blame you, but I had no idea "in-progress" things were even a thing, otherwise that's where I'd have kept my enemy thing perhaps indefinitely. 01:03, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Nah, it's totally my fault. If I realized that you were also working on a template, I would have mentioned my own work ASAP. I should have definitely made that stuff more public. 02:09, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * TBH I made mine just within the last hour or so by copypasting the NSMB template and heavily editing it...though it's the first template I made that was more than just copypasting and deleting parts of the result, like the Spike one I made out of the misc. Koopas one...though I change the color on it blunderingly, but effectively... 01:15, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm pretty sure that everyone makes templates through copy and pasting. It's easier than making it from scratch, and the code's freely available for use. Personally, that's how I've always done it. So long as you don't leave any traces of the old template behind (which I may have done at one point...), it's all good. 02:21, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I actually mainly made this because of how much you were working on this game, I wanted to help some more ^-^;; 01:27, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I sincerely appreciate any help that you can offer, honest. The template puts me in a bit of an odd position, as early on, I had actually planned on splitting the NES and SNES versions of the game into separate articles, but now that I'm seeing how few elements the NES version has, plus the number of points in common between the versions, I'll likely need to rethink that. 02:34, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I ended up making a few changes the template. Besides adding in some missing stuff like Aristotle or Independence Hall, the most notable changes that I did were merging the "Protagonists" and "Historical Characters" headers into one "Characters" header, and I changed the "Historical Locations" header to simply "Locations". There were only two protagonists in the first place, and Yoshi does so little that I'm hesitant to even call him a protagonist. Besides, this way it won't be necessary to place legitimate characters and locations like Paradise and Bowser's mother into a miscellaneous section. I also want to change the item sections in some way, mostly to work in the non-important items, but also because there's a lot of redundancy between the SNES and PC sections. Ideally, we'd mark the version-exclusive stuff with some sort of symbol ( is a good example of this), but at the same time, there's also overlap. There are some things that only appear in the PC version, some (read: a lot) of things that appear in the SNES and PC versions but not the NES version, and at least one element that appears in the NES and PC versions while skipping the SNES version. Trying to have different symbols for each scenario would be too confusing and Not Good, but leaving things as is would be too redundant and Not Good. Maybe it would be best to split the NES version, after all... 14:34, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I've finally filled my mock-up template of the SNES/PC version with every possible element. I've imported what I can to the existing template (mostly characters and locations), but the items are still an issue. Besides the redundancy I mentioned before, there's also no neat place to insert the non-"artifact" subjects, like Rat Trap or Backscratcher. I'm still on the fence about splitting the template; do you have any thoughts on how the template could be reworked?  12:06, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Simple. An "Other Items" section. 15:44, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * That still doesn't resolve the issue of redundancy. Again, it's common practice to distinguish new features with an asterisk, not by creating different sections for every version that result in reams of elements appearing multiple times. 18:11, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I suppose that could work, especially since SNES's items are all in MS-DOS verison, but not vice-versa, and having them together but not doing that could lead to confusion for owners of SNES version...But I think it would probably still be best to have NES and other share a template. We could always use that cross symbol to denote NES-only elements... 17:14, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * What about Koopa Troopa? They appear in both the NES and PC versions, but not the SNES version. 18:17, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It would get an asterisk for MS-DOS and a cross for NES, I suppose? 17:20, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * If the symbol is supposed to denote that a given element only appears in one game, then having two symbols for the same element just seems odd. 18:26, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I would think of it working more like a Venn diagram in that regard. 17:33, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * I can see that. Another point, if you don't mind continuing this discussion: what about having all of the items, "treasure" and non-treasure, in one section, like in my mock-up? There's precedence for splitting items that flat-out act differently, like in, but every item in MTM is basically the same. 18:53, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That'll probably do. The only reason I had them split in the first place is due to the differences in importance and version, the latter of which was because it was easier for me to make and could easily be remedied with the symbol usage, and the former of which I didn't know was an issue, because I didn't know there were any non-artifact items in the non-NES versions aside from Mushrooms. 17:57, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * All right, I think all of my issues have been settled. Do you want to take care of adding the info, or should I? 19:15, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * You should probably do it, as I am unfamiliar with most of the other items. Just make sure nothing gets lost, I'll double check afterwards. 18:37, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm on it. 19:46, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Done! Some of the item names are wonky because of different items sharing names, but I'll work on them as I go along. Now I just need to make the 70+ articles on that template. I am ecstatic. 20:34, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * So, um, I'm on my phone right now, and as it turns out, the crosses I used for symbols in the template become a lot more... biblical. I'll try to swap them for another symbol tomorrow. 01:08, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * What? It's sacred to me :\. 01:14, 23 July 2017 (CT)
 * So sorry to bother you again, but I wanted to discuss the inclusion of Neil Armstrong. The sprite of the astronaut is clearly just an edited version of Mario's sprite, and to me, it looks ambiguous enough that no amount of comparing it to real photos could let us draw a definite conclusion. Anything more would veer too far into speculation, in my opinion. Besides, the hint blocks don't give any indication as to the astronaut's identity, and talking to him doesn't reveal anything (unlike with Shakespeare who definitely confirms that he is himself). Maybe the astronaut's actually Collins who snuck onto the Moon for a few seconds. That's astronomically unlikely, I know, but if we don't have any concrete evidence as to the identity of the astronaut, we can't say anything definitive about him. 15:27, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I either didn't realize you could talk to NPCs in that game or I had forgotten o.o . In any case, if you want to remove it, go ahead, but remember, Neil Armstrong is the one that people actually remember as the "first man on the moon," and Buzz Aldrin is forgotten by a surprisingly large number of people... 19:24, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm well aware of that, but as long as there's ambiguity, we really shouldn't speculate, especially when there are two possible and equally probable answers. Also, the only reason I found out you can talk to them is because I happened to read the manual. Pressing start while in front of an NPC lets you "talk" to them, but really they're glorified hint blocks. They're also really annoying to talk to when they run off-screen in and instant and are instantly defeated if they touch an enemy no matter how much you try to use save states... Bleh -_- 21:01, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Pretty sure they respawn if you go off-screen again, but enemies don't.... 20:04, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the enemy respawns, sometimes they don't. I've found that running to the right doesn't cause the NPC to spawn (at least with Shakespeare and the astronaut), but moving slowly to the right will often result in you being too slow to save them from the enemy. Sometimes. Maybe. It's all up to the whim of this wonderful game. 21:06, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Eh, I still have a lot of nice memories from when I was young and played it technically-illegally on online emulators because I didn't know better, but what are you gonna do? At least it had a good Bowser battle, unlike NES MiM, which I'm still not convinced was Bowser at all. Now as for all the intricacies of how it works, I can't really remember, but I do have some sprites I have collected from some website I could upload as .GIFs. 20:10, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Maybe I'm just more cynical partially because the SNES/PC games have worn me down and because I'm playing this solely for the wiki and every time a character introduces themselves, I know that I'm going to make an article for them. Whenever I can, I do take the time to research background information and compare what's in the game to what happened in reality (at least for the SNES/PC games, because the term "artistic liberties" is putting it lightly). Even with mundane items like the paint can, I ended up looking into when modern paint cans were first created. This is completely and utterly a self-inflicted problem, I know, but that doesn't mean I can't try to soften the impact. In any case, if those images are still in good quality, they'd be handy for the wiki (although only upload them as .GIFs if they're animated). Incidentally, the "unnamed" samurai also says this, so that's one more article for the list... 21:20, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * They are currently in a PNG format in a document and look as they do in the game, with all the poses, and I have unFREEZ to animate them. The colors may not be raw, but that's hardly anything new for the wiki, judging by the list of enemies for Wario Land 3 and Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3... 20:25, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Pardon, but I don't quite understand the comparison to WL3 and SML3. Is there something wrong with the images for them on the wiki? 21:29, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Colors aren't as the appear in game. For WL3, the Red Prince Froggy is doing a pose only the Grey Prince Froggy ever does, and the white area on Fire Robota should be yellow. As for WL:SML3, some of the sprites use the greenish palette that the GB screen looks like it uses, but does not internally use, such as for Maizo. I also changed Yoritomo to Minamoto no Yoritomo, after doing some research and concluding that's the full name. 20:32, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'll defer to your judgement when it comes to the WL games, then. I also looked into Yoritomo, but I only added "Yoritomo" as a link because I was thinking of Duke of Alencon, where their full name isn't given in-game despite them obviously having one so you roll with what you got. On the other hand, I also linked to several characters that aren't given names at all in-game but obviously have them in real life (mostly the wives of historical figures), so you're not wrong in using his full name for the link. As far as I know, there isn't another example of this situation across the entire wiki, so we're creating the rules as we go on. 21:43, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

RE: Big Boo vs. Paper Big Boo
I have played Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. Let's keep this in the relevant thread. -- 04:39, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Frankly, Atomic Boo is just one big mess where Naming made things more complicated than it needed to be. I've had a few debates with other users with the policy, and from what I can gather, the impression is that the policy as infallible or is a de facto standard. I tried to legitimize some exceptions to the rules that made more sense, but failed. The policy also has issues with other users liking to split articles for very minor differences between enemies from different installments. Originally, Atomic Boo was its own enemy, then Paper Mario: Sticker Star was released, and now the article is being discussed for merging by taking TTYD and SPM with it. The policy is good, but can cause a few quirks with article naming the longer that keeps covering Mario content, which keeps it from being great. I do not specialize in article creation but rather screenshot, sprite, and some 3D render supply, so it's going to take someone way more familiar to re-evaluate the policy. I speak from article searching experience. -- 02:14, 26 July 2017 (EDT)

English names
I wouldn't be surprised if several of the entries on my list were outdated, but at the same time, Pokey Sprout isn't one of them. It's still being listed on the Pokey Head page as an official name without a citation, so it'll stay there until a source is found or it can be reasonably concluded that it is not an official name. 17:23, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Vandals
Undoing vandalism is all well and good, but I recommend you not say anything in your edit summaries when doing so. It can antagonize the vandal, and ultimately give him the attention they're looking for. It can also lead to some faults on your end as well sometimes. And there's no need to give a warning to a vandal if what they're doing is blatantly vandalism and they aren't going to listen to reason. Just a heads up. 12:29, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The reason I did that is because at first, I wasn't sure if they actually trying to vandalize or not, since "Paper Mario 64" is often used as an alternate name, thought typically with actual spacing. It quickly became clear that they were indeed attempting to vandalize, though, but I wanted to give them a bit of benefit of the doubt in spite of the rash of vandalisms that happened last night. 14:46, 21 July 2017 (CT)

Phew. Thanks for stepping up and shutting that vandal down, man. I probably could have done it, but I was sleeping at the time. 15:49, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

RE:Mario Boards Presentation
Yes, this is an annual thing. We are currently on the tenth annual awards, so if you couldn't make it this year, there is always next year! As for the custom sprites, you can always show them off in the forum's Fan Creations board any time you want to. 17:02, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Bird
I had reverted your coverage in the bird article, as those instances of birds you mentioned violate the generic subjects policy we set up. We cover Super Mario Sunshine birds because they serve a gameplay purpose in that game, with them dropping items depending on the color. 16:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Furthermore, if you want to add the bird that steals your artifact in Mario's Time Machine, feel free to create an article for it. Bird (species) currently serves as a double redirect I'd like to take care of, so it would be great if it got changed to Bird (Mario's Time Machine). 16:36, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * An easier solution would just be to have the "Bird (species)" article as it was. There is no logical reason to have them separate. They typically wait around and fly away when you get close to them. Butterflies are lumped together, even though some of them turn into explosive black spheres, some can be eaten for items, some can be touched for star bits, some are caught for minigames and some serve no purpose. That's far more variation than with the birds. This split shouldn't have happened and that is a fact. I'm not mad because I'm the one who rewrote the page and you did that, I'm annoyed that it was split even though it logically shouldn't have. 17:05, 21 July 2017 (CT)
 * Yeah, well, the Mario is Missing birds sere a gameplay purpose as well, and whatever policy was violated there is certainly violated by the Butterfly page. And the 3D Land birds don't deserve their own articles if the others don't. 16:57, 21 July 2017 (CT)
 * The reason I've created an article about the bird in Super Mario 3D Land being separate than the one in the Super Mario Sunshine article is that they have an extremely consistent design across many different games, which is most certainly deliberate (unlike the butterflies, which don't have deliberately consistent designs) and to be distinguished from the ones that appear in Super Mario Sunshine, and also the reason they hadn't received an article before is that, yes, they're ambient elements, but their appearance in Mario Sports Superstars serves a gameplay purpose. Also, if the butterfly article has issues with generic subject coverage, then the article should be rewritten to meet the criteria established rather than use it as a guideline to further continue misusing policy. 18:22, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

DKJR
Category:Forms specifies that it's to be used with changes that appear "when power-ups or items are used". It's definitely been misused in some places, but there are also fringe cases like Dino Rhino, Hoopster, and other enemies, who are tagged with the category because the SMB3 Kings were transformed into them by their magic wands (one of the kings also transforms into DK Junior). I still don't know why Hammer Bro and Piranha Plant are tagged, though... 19:33, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * They should probably be left, due to the capture feature of SMO... 19:06, 23 July 2017
 * But Mario doesn't transform into the enemies, he just takes control of existing ones. It's like he has a Pokeball. 20:12, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Koopalings
For which image? 22:03, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The first. As for the torches, that's Roy, Ludwig, Larry. nd the statues, the top row is Wendy (or perhaps Bowser), Roy, Ludwig (or perhaps Wendy), Wendy, second is Ludwig, Iggy, Roy, Iggy, third is Ludwig, Wendy. 21:08, 23 July 2017.
 * Actually, the one on the right in the first image has Larry's face and Lemmy or Iggy's hair. Leave it to a third party to mess things up like that. But Lemmy had fangs in SMW... 21:10, 23 July 2017.
 * And this is why I'm asking Mr. Wu. Not that your help isn't appreciated, but he definitely seems like my best bet when it comes to anything Koopaling-related. 22:12, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The thing is, the best bet really regards what Koopalings appeared in each version of the game. The fact that they mixed some attributes makes it annoying, but the rainbow hair and the fact that it's not Iggy makes it a safe bet to say it's Lemmy. 21:13, 23 July 2017.
 * In any case, I've already asked him. 22:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

EPIC FAIL!
AW, MAN! The Super Mario enemy project went for NOTHING! Dang it! It was an awesome project and full effort, though. It's a pity it game-overed. 23:08, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Well...not exactly... 01:11, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * It's looking good so far. Still some things that need adjusted, like when info or images refer to games outside of the main Super Mario series. 10:51, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The (arbitrary) order of importance I used was: High-Quality 3D Main Series image->High Quality 3D Spinoff image->Medium Quality 3D image (used for when there's enough pictures the blurriness doesn't show)->2D Image->Screenshot. I also preferred one I felt had the most "personality" over say, age, like with the Chain Chomp. 18:46, 26 July 2017 (CT)
 * Okay, that's fine. List should really only have one image, though, and should be an image from the actual main series. Additional images are better left to the article itself. 19:50, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It's also a general rule that the most recent image is used for a given subject (unless it has outside elements, like characters in karts, unless that's the only artwork available for them). The wiki hasn't tried deciding if an image with personality should take priority. 19:53, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I just think an image of a Chain Chomp charging or getting ready to charge should take priority over a Chain Chomp simply existing, even if that's the most recent, because it tells more about it. The alt images I showed were primarily alternate designs from 64 and Sunshine, again with the intent of helping new users identify them if they played those games and otherwise have little to no knowledge on the subject. And Hammer Bros. has two for fairly obvious reasons. 19:16, 26 July 2017 (CT)

New Super Mario Bros music is awesome
What do you think of the New Super Mario Bros games' music these days? A lot of people say it is overused, but I'll say it right now, the complete soundtrack of New Super Mario Bros Wii, New Super Mario Bros 2, and New Super Mario Bros U is one of the best soundtracks in the entire Mario franchise. New Super Mario Bros's soundtrack is just below. 23:59, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I personally prefer the DS version's Castle, Desert, and Underwater themes. The rest are about the same, but Wii and on have better final boss music. 23:02, 26 July 2017

Editing Standards
Sorry to bother you, but there's something you should keep in mind as you're editing: articles are to be written in present tense. For example, "jumping on their backs repeatedly will give him five more coins" is future tense, as saying that someone will do something means that the event is only happening in the future. In the example above, "jumping on their backs repeatedly gives him five coins" works fine. 19:44, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know. I just forgot there XD. 21:04, 28 July 2017
 * Ah, beg your pardon then. Actually, while I have your attention, do you prefer being called "Doc" for short or "Schmeltwick" for short? 22:50, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Doc or Docky is good. 23:56, 28 July 2017

For the record, I call him Doc, and he has no problem with it. 23:05, 28 July 2017 (EDT)

RE:Meowth
Okay, you're right on the nose, but Meowth does have a gem on its head and is a different species altogether. We've noted connections to the Pokémon franchise before between characters and enemies, but we've always marked them as unintentional unless proven otherwise. 22:04, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Coin, gem, whatever. I knew what I was thinking about, it's a shiny object anyway.
 * Yes, they do look similar, but again, it's nothing really worth noting. I've seen edits that claimed, say, Koopa Troopas look similar to Squirtles. Pokémon is full of creatures, you could make a connection to just about any of them between it and Mario. 22:10, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Princess Shroob DEBUNKED
Doc, she DOES speak English. Remember in Gritzy Caves, after you beat Petey Piranha and go into the second-to-last room of the area? Yep, while you're there, the disguised Princess Shroob says just what you'd normally expect from Princess Peach, and in the exact same way. The Mario Bros think it's Peach, and they open the door and find her.
 * I don't recall that. I remember the real Peach appearing in Gritzy Caves for a bit at the stadium, and Shroob basically miming everything. Besides, how would she talk with a glop covering the entire face? Only times I remember Shroob speaking is whenever she talks in their language, and at the very end, speaking with subtitles. And you say this was behind a locked door? Coulda been the real Peach then, then Shroob pulled a switch in the interim. Or a recording. If she could speak English, she'd have done it at the end instead of speaking with subtitles. 16:27, 31 August 2017 (CT)

Wait, so you're telling me that while the Mario Bros were one room away from Princess Peach in Gritzy Caves and she was behind a locked door, Peach yelled for the Mario Bros to help her, and just in time, Shroob pulled a switch and disguised herself as Peach? That's just bull. That had to have been Princess Shroob the whole way. The game even implies it! 17:35, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That's the implication I got from it. If she could speak then, she'd do it the entire time. And don't call other people's interpretations "bull." That's a fast path towards penalization. 16:38, 31 August 2017 (CT)

Sorry for that, I wasn't trying to insult you. I just considered the idea preposterous...unless...well, maybe. But I think the current story is that Princess Shroob was behind the locked door all that time, because I don't know how the Shroobs could have pulled that off that fast, and under the Mario Bros' nose too while at it. So that means Princess Shroob must have spoken English. I might want to see what Alex95 thinks about this. 17:42, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

"the Hotel Mario of the Mario Kart series"
Harsh, but I don't get the comparison. Hotel Mario is a standalone project made entirely by a third-party, and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is a revamped version of one of Nintendo's own games. Are you just saying that they're both bad games? 18:52, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * 8 DX makes Mario Kart: Super Circuit, with its abysmal physics and GBA-resolution, look like Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door in comparison simply due to its conception. Instead of having a new MK game as usual, Mario Kart 8 DX adds about five new characters and a functioning battle mode to MK8, and vaguely tweaks the graphics. Thing is, I have the Wii U game and all of its DLC, and I don't think it should cost 60 USD for me to get 5 new characters (none of which are Petey Piranha) and a Battle Mode I'll never use, which would be wonderful as DLC for the original. I think that they should have it so that if the Nintendo profile confirms ownership of the original and DLC, the online price of DX should be bounced down to say, 15 USD. Do they do that? I don't think so. Not to mention the "paid internet" the Switch has, as opposed to the free internet the 3DS and Wii U have. I know the other companies do it for a steeper price, but I'd expect that from them, since Microsoft gaming has been a terrible company from the get-go, with no exclusives other than what they tortured RareWare into making, and Sony has been bad since the PS2 was discontinued and they decided to focus on grimdark bilge. I consider MK8DX to be one in a series of recent bad choices by Nintendo. They are as follows:
 * -The existence of Twilight Princess DX (which was solely created as a way to shoehorn Wolf Link into BotW);
 * -Making Breath of the Wild into a non-formulaic Elder Scrolls-esque game with an absurd amount of restrictions (no recovery hearts; AoL was fine, you didn't need to do it again!) and having the forest creatures be the ugly Koroks instead of the adorable Kikwis (which are established as natural hiders) and messing up the Rito's position of "only half-human race in Hyrule." Not to mention most of the "innovative" things in it were actually lifted straight from Skyward Sword, which few people played due to the glitch-ridden Skyrim being released around the same time. From what I've seen, BotW is an acclaimed hot mess.
 * -Discontinuing the NES Classic, I have a controller for it, but not it itself. It apparently works for the Wii U, thankfully. Still, jerk move, Nintendo.
 * -C&D'ing "Another Metroid 2 Remake" only to show off their own. I don't particularly like Metroid, and the creator of the franchise apparently didn't want it C&D'd, but still, that was someone's many-year-long project. He supports the new Nintendo game, but still, hateful move there, Nintendo.
 * -Heck, C&D'ing anything that isn't a straight port, really. You guys should be flattered.
 * -Changing so much in MM3D, while admittedly a bit earlier, was still bad. They deliberately left in as much as the original for OoT, but for MM (which I consider the best video game in history), they changed an enormous amount. Yes, I'm looking at you Molgera fight. And you, Zora Link swimming. Bad.
 * Really, ever since Iwata died, there's been a lot of bad decisions, although a few were made before that. So that's my ramble for the day. 18:13, 31 July 2017.
 * Clearly, you have stronger feelings on the subject than me (although the BotW stuff sounds like nitpicking to my untrained ears). 19:24, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Whatever. Also, Blockhoppers are listed as robots due the their robotic appearance (their eyes and legs) and the clanking and ticking noises they make. 18:30, 31 July 2017.
 * That seems tenuous to me - I thought they just looked like Black Mages in blocks - but I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. 19:34, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Edit: Just saw your Block description. I like it, but I'm not sure about the inclusion of enemies. Neither Block nor Template:Blocks cover any enemies on them. 19:35, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

What? Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is AWESOME! It's even better than MK8! I don't get what's bad about it at all. I mean, I read your explanation above, Doc, but that makes MK8 DX EVEN BETTER! How is that bad? Sorry if I'm a little edgy, I just haven't heard a person say that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is actually bad, or even that it approaches the level of Hotel Mario. 19:27, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it adds about $14 worth of things to MK8, and does nothing else. But it's $60 to get basically a tiny expansion pack for some inconsequential characters, slightly tweaked graphics, and a legitimate battle mode I'd never use. I'd forgive it all if they offered a discount for the online purchase for owners of MK8 original, but as it stands it is not worth anywhere close to $60 for an owner of MK8 original and its DLC. 18:34, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Are you sure about that, my boy? I would DEFINITELY pay the extra money JUST to get the best Mario Kart game ever. But that's just me. And plus, how are King Boo, Bowser Jr, and Dry Bones inconsequential? Every character in Mario Kart other than (GRRRRR!) Pink Gold Peach contributes a lot to the series. And why would you not use a legitimate battle mode? Is it just you, I guess? I'm really sorry, but I hate it when Mario fans get so picky and nostalgia-blind that they basically pick apart every new game, or just new thing, or decision that Nintendo makes. It just annoys me to the last degree, especially when I consider games like Mario Party 9 and Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, or even Super Paper Mario of all games to be actually good, although I do consider the original, traditional formulas to make for better products. I'm sorry Doc, you're a great friend and all, and I know you have your opinion, but I get annoyed when fans just get picky like that. 19:47, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * It's not worth $60 to get $14 worth of stuff. And by "inconsequential," I mean "not Petey Piranha," and this isn't a "new" thing, it's a game released a few years ago with 7 new things added for $60! They coulda just DLC'd it so people would buy the original, instead of basically brushing off owners of the original. I find it to be an outrage. If they wanted to remake a Mario Kart game, it shoulda been Super Circuit, it needs it. As for your talking about Mario Party, I don't care. I don't have people to play with, except my little brother who hates multiplayer. That's also why I don't care for battle mode; no one to play with, and no actual reward. And about "picky," I consider SMB2 (US) and Sunshine to be great games, even if they shook up the formula a lot. The same goes for Zelda 2 (but currently not BotW). But, my original point stands, as an owner of the original, I don't think it's fair to shell out $60 for what amounts to almost the exact same thing. Within 3-4 years, even! 19:00, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Hmmm...OK, I'm starting to see what you think. Battle mode is a waste because you can't play multiplayer and there's no reward, and you must really like Petey Piranha, which I can understand and relate to, because I like Petey too. But the thing is, he's not the only character that matters; in fact, he's just one out of a whole bunch of them. And plus, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe IS a unique thing. Of COURSE it's going to be a port of Mario Kart 8, so I think that should have been expected. But at the same time, it just brings so many new ideas, and just these little details that polish it to absolute perfection. And by "picky", I know people who are so nostalgic with the Nintendo 64, they even consider Mario Party THREE to be the LAST GOOD MARIO PARTY (I'm not yelling, or even mad, I'm just trying to emphasize my point). There are some people who are so driven with rage and are so paranoid, that they think that Nintendo's games in every series are declining, EVER SINCE FROM THE FIRST TO THE MOST RECENT. Personally, I don't like that, and I consider it just crazy and stupid. For example, some fans might think Superstar Saga is the absolute best, Partners in Time is good, but worse than the first, Bowser's Inside Story is mediocre, and Dream Team is complete garbage (just an example). It's just wrong, and to see that extend to EVERY series, even those that are doing exceptionally well to this day, makes me feel edgy, and even a little mad at the worst times. So just trying to clear the air, don't get angry at me. But I do think it's a little shaky to consider a game bad for paying more for almost the same content, because I think Mario Kart 8 Deluxe 1-upped the phenomenal original by a mile. 20:24, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Still not worth $60 additional dollars. That's my entire problem with it, is that it's too much to charge owners of the original. As for Mario Party, I played about 2 hours of 7 at my cousins' house when I was like 7-8? And a few hours of DS on a friend's DS when I was like 14? I don't have experience with it. Superstar Saga I haven't played, though I resent how overused the wonky graphics are in fanworks. 19:30, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Taxonomical Arguments
Fair enough, then. 15:21, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * If you're deleting all of those categories from the templates, are you also going to be the one adding them back to the necessary pages? 16:46, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I suppose so, but many have overlap. Should it be alphabetical for all media portrayals listed, mixing games and cartoons together? 15:48, 1 August 2017 (CT)
 * The general order is outlined here. Simply put, species at the very top, misc. categories (jobs, etc.) after that in order of most important to least, then every piece of media comes after that. Books, games, cartoons, and the rest all get treated equally, and it's entirely in alphabetical order. 16:53, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door edit
DUDE! Kolorado was a student of Professor Frankly! Why did you remove that? That was useful! 22:15, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Edit: Sorry, I just now realized you understood what that meant. I take that back. 22:18, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Super Mario 64 DS is the BEST!
What do you think of Super Mario 64 DS? I think it's one of the best Mario games ever, even better than the original game. I love it. 22:32, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * It's the reason I got a 3DS to begin with. I never had a previous-model DS, but I wanted a later one....Wanting it was a huge motivation to get Mario games in the first place, as I had grown up with a PS2. Lots of games on it, though. 21:35, 1 August 2017

Yoshi edit
We just had this discussion. That's got to be Yoshi the character, he literally appears right in the game. And this time, he's actually the green Yoshi you play as throughout the game. Come on now, if the article literally says Yoshi the character debuted in the game, then we have to include him. How is that speculation? We KNOW Yoshi the character is actually a character in this game. 18:09, 2 August 2017 (EDT)
 * He's already there, above the "colored Yoshis" section. Were you just not paying attention? 17:11, 2 August 2017 (CT)

Aw, s**t. I'm sorry about that. I wasn't paying attention. But anyway, can you say for absolute certainty that the first Yoshi in Super Mario World is Yoshi? I hope so, because if not, then I think I'm starting to doubt what I've known about Mario for a long time. 18:15, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

The most bizarrely well-known
I always hate when people use "odd", "strange", or "bizarre" to describe anything in an article. This is a series where people eat mushrooms and flowers to gain abilities, the main villain is a spiky turtle/ox that stands on two legs, the main hero is an Italian plumber from Brooklyn who never does any plumbing besides two games, and at one point he accepted a stolen book from an orphan in front of Charles Dickens' doorstep. Those words are completely meaningless here. You've done good work on the Koopa article, especially with all of the maintenance and clean-up. The one criticism I can offer is to not make so many edits to one page in rapid succession (it's one of those things the wiki doesn't like). If you can, try to preview your edits first. 20:11, 2 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I do that routinely, it's just that there's always another thing in a place I didn't notice, like the caption for the image at the beginning, for instance. Also, I often just edit by section, particularly when the section's so bad it'll take up a lot of the edit summary. 19:14, 2 August 2017
 * Imagine editing Mario or another huge article section-by-section. Plus, editing the article as a whole lets you see how images and headers wrap around text. As many snarky comments and extra clarification that you want to add, sometimes it's okay to just say "Added x section, did some clean-up". 20:20, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Bowser voice clips
Who voiced Bowser in the Nintendo 64, early GameCube games, and some rare DS games? It never says in any of the wiki's articles. 23:55, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Falling Star
Do you have any plans for Falling Star? I wrote down every instance of the ghosts being mentioned on the talk page, if that helps you in any way. 21:46, 3 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I'll get to that. I still have to finish getting the categories for the detranscluded templates, but I'm also busy preparing for college, which starts in less than 10 days.  20:48, 3 August 2017 (CT)
 * I get that. Registration for college is in a week, myself, and a lot of stuff's still up in the air. 21:55, 3 August 2017 (EDT)

Projects
I happened to take a look at your Projects page. Do you mind if I give my thoughts on a couple of the things you have there? 21:58, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Go ahead, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'll put much stock into any criticism, constructve or otherwise. I just moved into college, having it a bit rough emotionally. 21:08, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Mhm, I understand that. I don't want to harshly criticize what you have there or anything, but still, feel completely free to take everything I have to say here with a grain of salt: for the Eulipotyphla category, while I personally like the idea, the wiki had a push to make category names simpler and more convenient for readers, so I'm not sure if a technical name like "Eulipotyphla" would be easily accepted (totally on board with you, though!); for the Beanish template, I actually made a point of removing the Beanbean Kingdom enemies from that category (and I'm fairly certain that was based on a discussion, though I can't seem to find it at the moment), and having a species category that lists things that aren't a part of that species seems... weird to me. Barring the navigation templates that are modeled after the other species templates without covering species themselves, like, I can't think of another example that's close to what you have there. 22:18, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Note that "Beanish" isn't sited, and as such it's left rather ambiguous what exactly it refers to, especially with the massive variation regarding physical appearance the NPCs of Superstar Saga displayed. I took it to mean any bean-like creature, that is to say any beanish creature. IE the sentient beans of Beanbean. 21:27, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * I'd consider that to be too vague, especially with enemies like Sharpea or Troopea. They don't have anything that obviously and ties them to the other enemies besides a bit of green coloring, and I don't think that's strong enough to tie them to Queen Bean or Prince Peasley. Most members of a species have an obvious visual connection to one another, so I'm not entirely comfortable with something this ill-defined. 22:32, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Yet Lakitufo is still defined as a Shroob, for some reason. 21:33, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Yep, I don't like that template/category either. I kinda get also listing the "Shroobified" creatures alongside the proper Shroobs, especially since most of them have "Shroob" in their name, but Lakitufo is such an edge case that I'm tempted to remove it from the template right now. Same deal with Swiggler, being next to Shroobs doesn't automatically make you a Shroob (also, its intro paragraph calls it "a large, Shroob-created, bio-mechanical robot", and I want a citation for at least three of those words). 22:40, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * For the record, some of Swiggler's sprites clearly show plugs and sparks coming out of it, so there's that. Niiue (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Swiggler has Shroob-like eyes, so it has that going for it. Lakitufo always bothered me being included on their, I mean Piranha Planet is an alien in that game too, but it's not classified as a Shroob. Only reason I put Lakitufo on the template was because it's listed as one in other locations, and it uses Spiny Shroopas (which are what, Oerlikon Frogs?) as weapons. As for why the unused "Scoot Bloop" is listed as Shroobified, that really bothers me, as the only evidence of that is that it's in the data for Vim Factory. 22:12, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Also, Swiggler's Japanese name is a play on their version of Shroob, so it counts. 22:15, 13 August 2017 (CT)

Poison
Is that actually poison, or is it just a draining effect? 01:15, 14 August 2017 (EDT)
 * A "draining effect" is exactly what a Poison status effect is (in all games that are relevant to this site, anyways) 00:20, 14 August 2017 (CT)
 * Burn status effects often do the same thing. Is being burned the same as being poisoned? 01:25, 14 August 2017 (EDT)
 * No, because in Super Mario Sunshine it's established that being burned makes Mario either die immediately or jump into the air yelling "MAAAMAAHOOWAHOO" and landing right back onto what burned him. Quite different. Either way, I'm clearly too tired to hold up a debate coherently and/or rationally. Bear with me. 00:27, 14 August 2017 (CT)
 * The rationale still holds for, say RPG games. I don't think it makes sense to assume that everything that drains your HP is automatically poison. Also, I'm mighty tired myself, so Imma crash into my bed now. 01:30, 14 August 2017 (EDT)

Shroobified‎
Still, it may be best to find a video or another source that mentions it, at the very least so that we can confirm the spelling. 19:58, 17 August 2017 (EDT)
 * The enthusiasm is nice, but per the Courtesy policy, users shouldn't participate in other users' editing projects without asking them first. I was the one who made the proposal, so the onus was on me to see it through. In the future, I would greatly appreciate it if you asked me beforehand. 21:00, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

FREEDOM!
I'm BACK! Did you miss me? :) ...OK, but really, PHEW! I'm glad that ban expired, my boy. It was getting really boring not being able to do anything on here. How are you doing? 20:58, 17 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Would have been better if not for the fact that Rocky Wrench has been reclassified on here despite official word. I also have a few m ore projects going, and I made a Shroob template...Anyways, I'm at college right now, I'm doing OK. How have you been? 20:00, 17 August 2017 (CT)

Don't worry, buddy. I was watching the proposal from behind the scenes all along, and I would have voted for both, because of reasons on both sides. I've been doing awesome, and it's especially great to be back here again. 21:03, 17 August 2017 (EDT)

Re: Unera and Grubby
That's actually a good point. Hm, I guess they probably should go under Category:Bees and wasps, then. Niiue (talk) 04:01, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

Re: Scienstein's Inappropriate Habits
OK, I think I can believe that a little more. But seriously, REALLY? That is just wrong and completely bizarre. 17:56, 21 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Um...OK, I think I can live with that, then. 18:00, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

Proposal Deadline
HOLY SHIT! The deadline of your proposal is ON MY BIRTHDAY! 18:47, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

WL3
Excuse me for butting in, but if you're having issues with a recently uploaded image not updating properly, try pressing Ctrl+F5. This reloads the cache and should properly display the image. 21:34, 22 August 2017 (EDT)
 * For me, the first three edits you made to the image showed up as having a yellow head, but the last one you made it had a silver head. I think I had this same kind of problem before, but I'm not exactly sure why it happens. 21:37, 22 August 2017 (EDT)
 * For me, all four of your edits have the yellow head (and arms/legs). 21:44, 22 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I refreshed the page and now it shows all of them have yellow heads. Weird. 21:47, 22 August 2017 (EDT)

Nooz
Are you sure Noozes are chickens? The only real resemblance is that they have combs (which aren't exclusive to chickens), and the Italian name meaning "Bad Hen" (which also isn't entirely conclusive). Niiue (talk) 03:30, 23 August 2017 (EDT)
 * The combs, which from what I've seen are indicative of Junglefowl, the fact that the "mustache" looks like the tail feathers, the face looking like a typical cartoon chicken, shorty pudgy stature, all those things. Honestly it took me a long time to realize the whole "nose" gimmick for them, I had always just seen chickens. Either way, that's most likely where people will look for it. I've decided I won't include Coo-Coo (not to be confused with Coo Coo because that's just really ambiguous. 02:36, 23 August 2017 (CT)

Re:Craw
I think we should also add the rest of the Craws to the Corvid category. Maybe it could also be categorized as a Carrion Bird as well, since they look like that. I have a question, though, do you think "Jibberjay" would be classified as a Corvid? They appear to be named after parrots, but English names them Jays. I also saw this bird the Kaibādo, which has an appearance of a jay, think that could be a corvid as well? 23:57, 23 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Oh okay, I thought it would be a good idea to get an opinion out of you, that's why I asked first. PS Ah, that video is so cute and awesome, thanks for sharing it with me! I love budgerigars! 00:05, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

Coins
Do you mind if I bug you about the coin standardizing proposal? 20:59, 26 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I'd rather you didn't, but if you really have to, go ahead. Also I remembered that in some games, like the galaxy games, they are represented in speech often as simply pictures of coins, ie with no spelling, and only spelled at all in the enclosed instruction book. 20:02, 26 August 2017 (CT)
 * All the more reason to standardize them, but if you're not interested in talking about it, I'll oblige and shut up. 21:04, 26 August 2017 (EDT)
 * This is a silly franchise, and I'm a silly person. It takes one to know one and all that. 00:04, 27 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Still unnecessary of a proposal. They're typically called coins lowercase, but it should be case by case if you wanted to go into absurd detail regarding various things regardless of where that leads. 23:11, 26 August 2017 (CT)

Re: Sponsors
Yes, I certainly am! I'm not sure with which game I'm going to go with next though, as I can only say that we definitely have all of the images for Double Dash!!, but I'd have to get the sponsors lists together beforehand. I can get lists for Wii, 7 and DS but we don't have all of the images yet, and I can't say much about 64, so that would be going on what's said on the Wiki. If you know anything that may help though, it would be much appreciated! But long story short, yes, I will do all the other games' sponsors at a later date.

Re: B Dasher
Mario Kart DS's box artwork shows Mario and the B-Dasher. Since it's the first kart the player sees in the game, both artwork and game, it is indeed the main kart of Mario Kart DS. 20:59, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

Princess Shroob edit
Why did you delete that? That was important information. 22:09, 28 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Because there is no way to put it in there without it looking exceedingly awkward or not working. You can't have it in the quote, as it's not part of the quote, and you can't have it in the bar underneath, because that works as a link, and ergo cannot be used there. 21:11, 28 August 2017 (CT)

I'll find a way, don't worry. Keep an eye on one important Princess Shroob edit coming up, on the double! 22:20, 28 August 2017 (EDT)

Blue Shell edit
Come on! That was true information! The Blue Shell IS the most common name for the Spiny Shell, why won't you let me say that in the article? 22:08, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it doesn't matter. Also, it's never been official ever. The only reason we have that as an alternative on here is so poor misinformed people can find the page and be corrected. Also, that's subjective. Even more subjective than my negative opinion towards MK8DX, I'd say. 21:15, 29 August 2017 (CT)

How does it not matter?! You JUST said that people get confused with the Blue Shell and the Spiny Shell! That's pure bullshit! Ugh...please explain a little better. 22:17, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Firstly, you'll be lucky if I don't report you for swearing about what I have to say. Secondly, it doesn't matter because it's a fan name. Fan content in general is extremely subjective, especially with superlatives like "most." And most importantly, fan content is irrelevant to the wiki. 21:25, 29 August 2017 (CT)

I wasn't swearing against you. I didn't even mean it as an insult to you or anything. I just find it wrong that the Blue Shell...well...OK, you've got a point, fan content is EXTREMELY subjective. But still, I just wanted to give the Blue Shell its time in the limelight...or you know what? I guess...I'll just drop it. It's no use arguing about fan content on this wiki, and I swear to God, I am NOT going to travel down a road of speculation like that again. I don't know, I'm sorry for swearing, but sometimes, you just have to let it out, because, well...regular words just don't do the job sometime. But yeah, I WILL make it a habit to tone down my swearing. You have my word on that. 22:30, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

Protagonist, deuteragonist, tritagonist, tetartagonist...AHHH, I'm getting a headache now!
Okay, saying tritagonist and tetartagonist is gonna complicate the entire Mario franchise. There are only two types we should talk about, and that's the protagonist and deuteragonist. Any deeper is going to cause trouble. 20:06, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Which is exactly why I've been reversing those edits. Along with them being completely subjective. 19:08, 30 August 2017 (CT)

Good. And shouldn't we say that Luigi is the deuteragonist of the entire Mario franchise explicitly? I asked that on the talk page, but apparently no one cared. 20:10, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

Reporting vandals...or not?
Hey, why did you undo my report on the guy who was adding unnecessary information? I wanted it kept on there until I was certain that he was just an innocent rookie user who just doesn't know his way around. 22:19, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I can say definitively that he was just a person who over-analyzed the bosses' roles. It clearly wasn't an attempt to be malicious, so not a vandal. 21:21, 30 August 2017 (CT)

Since you're a regular user on the wiki, I'll take your word for that. But make sure he doesn't do it again, or he's gonna get a warning per policy. We don't want another situation, because that guy REALLY needs to learn. 22:25, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

Removing File:
You don't need to go out of your way to clean up pages that still use "File:" in galleries. While the wiki does make a point of removing it as it's unnecessary, it's a non-issue for readers that doesn't actually affect anything about the articles, so it's best tackled incidentally while also editing some other aspect of the article. This also goes for changing "Image:" to "File:" and removing the "right" parameter from images. 23:06, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

Doki Doki Panic name
So what? I don't care if it's from Japan-only or not, it's still the official name of the game. So that English template is pointless, because that might as well BE the English name at this point. 22:04, 31 August 2017 (EDT)
 * From what I can remember, the only time it was officially brought up in the West was in the Smash games for 3DS and Wii U. And either way, it's still a Japanese name with Japanese characters. Its the official name, but it's Japanese, which is exactly what the "another language" template is for. 21:11, 31 August 2017 (CT)

That doesn't sound right at all. It's still the official name, so we use it. It doesn't matter that it's Japanese, because that's its official name. Official names take priority over language, except when there's actually an official English name for the thing, which there has never been. It's been Doki Doki Panic since it was created, and it will always be Doki Doki Panic. 22:18, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Shy Guy edit
It would be of no use to make a separate section. Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic and Super Mario Bros 2 are pretty much the same game, so they deserve the same header. It doesn't matter if the former is not a Mario game, because it's remake IS a Mario game, and since both serve the same purpose, there's no point in making separate sections. That would be like splitting apart the Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS sections on articles featuring the two games. 22:10, 31 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Nope, because they're both Super Mario games. 21:12, 21 August 2017 (CT)

But that's the point, IT DOESN'T MATTER. Remakes take priority over series alignment, am I right? I mean, once again, it's pointless to make two different sections for each of the games, because they both serve the same purpose. 22:15, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Edit sniping
I thought it was kind of obvious I was working down the list of Primids. If it seems clear that someone is working through a pattern of pages, please don't interfere by going after the remaining ones, as this counts as edit sniping. 00:51, 1 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I didn't know that was a thing, sorry. I just work with a cold, cruel efficiency. 23:52, 31 August 2017 (CT)

That's okay.

RE: Brawl enemies: Sure. I was just taking care of Category:Super Smash Bros. Series Species and removing Category:Subspace Army from the Primid pages. 01:09, 1 September 2017 (EDT)

Edit..war?
OK, that was cutting it a little too close there. How the heck does that statement violate policy, may I ask? That sounds kind of outrageous, actually, because I have NEVER seen a policy state that. Then again, I don't read the policies extensively because they're very long and take up an entire article. 20:35, 1 September 2017 (EDT)
 * As has been said many times in the edit summaries, those are to go solely on the character pages. 19:38, 1 September 2017 (CT)

Sunshine trivia
The obscuring or alteration of objects when behind a closer object due to a changing camera angle is nothing special or unique to Super Mario Sunshine, as this is a trend that happens in most games with a 3D camera, hence why I removed that trivia. I also think it could fit under the gameplay section when talking about how to adjust camera controls, which should be in there in the first place. 01:49, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Actually, the thing with the Question Marks, from what I've seen, is completely unique to that game. The camera controls are mentioned in the controls section, but it's not structured in a manner that would allow it to fit in. 00:52, 2 September 2017 (CT)
 * Games have different ways of telling players that there's something there behind a closer object obstructing due to a camera angle, this is just Super Mario Sunshine's way of doing it. Other games use black silhouettes, including how the game handles the player model, mostly not to confuse players with objects. I added a paragraph in Super Mario Sunshine describing camera controls, as camera controls are fairly pivotal to the description and navigation of a 3D platformer. 01:55, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * My point was that the use of question marks was fairly unique, as every other game I've played with that sort of thing would show silhouettes, typically if one managed to clip a camera through the wall (which I used to do as a kid in the Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets video game when I got stuck in one sequence....good times.) 00:58, 2 September 2017 (CT)

Mario Kart 8
Since everyone else I asked about Mario Kart 8 isn't online now, do you mind I ask you questions about a couple of the game's enemies? 22:36, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Something along the lines of "don't have game plz add info" but I hit the enter key early. 22:37, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Not sure how long I'll be online and I haven't played in a while, but go ahead, I'll gladly be a person you can ask who's played it but hasn't been spoiled by the eeeeeeeevil Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:40, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It's about the centerpiece of Bowser's Castle, the giant, flaming Bowser statue. The wiki calls it a Gold Bowser Statue, even though the Gold Bowser Statues are enemies from Super Mario World that look and act nothing like the one in MK8. Not to mention that the guide calls it the "Bowser Monument" and also describes it as living. Is there any basis for that giant statue to be called a Gold Bowser Statue? 22:42, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * None whatsoever. It's the serial escalation of the Bowser statues moving more and more in each Mario Kart game, from the immobile ones in 64, the robotic-acting one in Double Dash (and 64DS/NSMB minigames), the fluid, but limited one in Wii, and the borderline realistically moving one here. It looks sorta orange, but that's clearly just from the lava's glow. Worth noting is that the laser-shooting Gray Bowser Statues from 3 are also in the castle, and the Wiki erroneously wanted to differentiate that way.Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:46, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Pardon, what do you mean by the wiki wanting to differentiate the Gray Bowser Statues? 22:48, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * They are completely different, and I think they wanted to have them differentiated by page somehow. They just went about it the wrong way. They ought to have a "Bowser Statue (Mario Kart)" or "Bowser Statue (giant)" page on here for those ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2017 (EDT)

OK, will you stop bringing up Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, please? I know you don't like that game, but still, it's getting annoying hearing you bash that game all the time. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion, but jeez, give it a break, bro.

All right, back on topic, I do think the Bowser Statues should be talked about collectively. 22:50, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Don't call me "bro" or I will turn you into Klonkey Klong and send you to the netherworld PINKY KONG IS STINKY KONG! OPEN YOUR EYES, PEOPLE! SAMMER'S KINGDOM WAS AN INSIDE JOB! MOE-EYES PUNS AREN'T FUNNY! I'm done now. (mic drop) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Uh...okay then, Doc. If that's what you want, then okay, I guess. (You happy now, Time Turner?) 22:57, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Petey Piranha is large Whomp Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:00, 2 September 2017 (EDT)
 * the memes are reaching maximum capacity captain 23:07, 2 September 2017 (EDT)

My Name is not Morty.png
I get it, but maybe the [[Media:My_Name_is_not_Morty.png|image]] should have been named something more appropriate for what it is? LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:54, 5 September 2017 (EDT)
 * What? In-game name. Morty's what Prima called it. And it's nothing compared to the ridiculously-long thing I gave my Gray Bowser Statue upload. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:55, 5 September 2017 (EDT
 * [[Media:More_Accurate_Than_The_Real_Thing_In_This_Game_When_Assembled_Properly.png|This one]]? Well, disregarding that there's a decades-long difference between that picture book and whenever Prima came into the picture, the image use policy states: "When uploading a file, be sure to give it a straightforward and meaningful name, as this makes it easier to use, is better for searching purposes and looks more professional." (emphasis not mine) among other bullet points. Uploads are appreciated, but keep that in mind. LinkTheLefty (talk) 03:05, 5 September 2017 (EDT)

RE: Angry Flare
They do, but not when standing still. I see them make their "angry eyes" when attacking, but that's not what the sprite is showing. 16:31, 6 September 2017 (EDT)

Time Machine for the Ages
Well, I did give a backscratcher to a hotel owner in Vienna and a stolen book to a bank owner in London. Does that count for something? 23:00, 11 September 2017 (EDT)
 * BowserMiM.png Hmm, maybe.........or maybe not. But probably yes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:02, 11 September 2017 (EDT)

Re: "Lots of games have this kind of ability"
Well, the Devon Scope from Pokémon? The Magnifying Glass from Yoshi's Island? Even these two items are more similar to this Zelda item than the Moe-Eyes.
 * What does it matter if one is purple and the other is pink? Even if you consider them similar (I don't, just for the record), that's the only resemblance between them.
 * As far as I know, they don't even do the same thing. The wiki says it shows "invisible enemies and objects," and not floors. It's the same with the items I mentioned there.

And, as I said before, seeing invisible things is not unique. I mean, I've seen this concept in smaller platform games (not Nintendo) often before, so it's something easy to be thought of. The Moe-Eye thing may look a bit like the Zelda thing, but do you really think it is THAT remarkable? 10:19, 12 September 2017 (EDT)

Super Mario series
Thanks for the note, I can see you also wish to have that messy Super Mario (series) page improved for the best. However, my edits were not only to remove the images I considered useless, but I also did some minor grammar changes on the headers. Therefore, I was forced to perform a counter revert for technical purposes. Going back to this case about images, we don't really need to have a cluster of the multiple designs the enemies have had throughout the series, it makes the wikitable look more clunky than it already is (for a whole section I consider unnecessary), one image is just enough because the outdated alternate appearances are irrelevant at this point, after all, we should stick to the most recent design the subject used since their most recent Super Mario series' appearance (if an artwork if available, of course), this will entice new readers that the series keeps changing. Ironically, that's the same reason why Daisy keeps using her old Super Mario Land artwork there. You are getting too much specific about this anyway, why you did that treatment to certain enemies but not for others? the Goomba, for instance, looks very different in Super Mario 64 than its modern appearance since New Super Mario Bros.. You are also leaving out main characters like Mario, you didn't pick images for his older appearances to create a similar collage. See? it cannot be a more useless addition. You are also contradicting yourself, you told me the Dry Bones images from Super Mario Galaxy 2 had a dismal quality and put back its Mario Party: Star Rush art, yet you ignored the fact the Chain Chomp was in a similar case using some rather bad arts from Mario Party-e and New Super Mario Bros. 2 as opposed to its better art from Mario Party 8. Speaking of that, this is where we have another issue: the game selection for arts is just poor. Why did the Koopa Paratroopa have its art from Super Mario RPG? Why were the Shy Guy and the aforementioned Chain Chomp and Dry Bones using their arts from Mario Party? Even worse is that there are images that don't even reflect an alternate appearance, like how the Hammer Bro. has two images whom it looks exactly the same in both. I did not realized the Blue and Yellow Toads were merged into a single row, and that shouldn't be the case, they should be splitted again, but whatever. The reason I left the Sentry Beam and the Octoomba alone was because there are other related enemies having multiple rows, with the better example being the Cheep Cheep's subspecies; each member of the "Octo Army" should have their own row in my opinion.

-- BYLLANT   23:31, 13 September 2017 (EDT)

Snowman
As far as I know, Snowmen were definitely in the Mario Kart 8 version of Sherbet Land in the off-road. If Snowmen were in the Double Dash version, then they were simply aesthetics, not obstacles. 17:00, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I just think I remember showing my little cousin, who has 64, the Double Dash version, and him panicking when I said I'd hit the snowman....pretty sure they might have been in the same place in the original..... I own both, so I can find out...Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:02, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I've recently seen a video of Sherbet Land from Double Dash, and I can confirm that Snowmen indeed appear in the sidelines of the course, just not as obstacles. 17:04, 15 September 2017 (EDT)


 * If contact can be made, they're obstacles. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * In the Mario Kart 8 versions yes, but in the Double Dash version, no, they're part of the background. 17:52, 15 September 2017 (EDT)

Good one
I'd play it. Heck, I can see it working :P 18:02, 18 September 2017 (EDT)

Para-Beetle Trivia
How is this trivia no longer relevant? Even if the pages are merged now, it's still a main-series Mario guide referring to Para-Beetles by their one-off RPG name, which seems noteworthy for the same reasons it'd be noteworthy if a future game referred to Cheep Cheeps as Gobies again or something. Niiue (talk) 20:24, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Because A: Heavy Para-Beetle is sourced from that guide, so I'm a bit skeptical, B: this is the same guide that referred to three separate enemies under the same name, C: it's like how Swoop/Swooper got flipped around many times before becoming consistent, D: it should be incorporated if true, as it's only valid for one game, and E: it uses the word "oddly." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:28, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Fair enough. Niiue (talk) 23:58, 19 September 2017 (EDT)

RE: "It" / Cap Kingdom
Just a mistake.

I'll admit, I never really gave those videos a closer watch. If you want to recreate it with descriptions on the environment details and whatnot that could help make the page bigger, by all means (or let me know if you want me to restore the page so you can expand it). 04:26, 21 September 2017 (EDT)

RE: Map Delete
There's some questionable edits to the image itself: Seems like an inferior version. -- 22:17, 21 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Logo of an unofficial Nintendo website.
 * Is the red text official?
 * Potential duplicate.
 * Unused, probably for a reason.

Irrelevant
What is irrelevant?  Music Video 123  (talk) 10:21, 22 September 2017 (EDT)

Top Man

Infobox
doesn't support variables other than the ones listed on the template page (mainspace templates are not allowed on userpages anyway); you'd have to code the infobox from scratch. You can, however, copy the code from the template page and paste it on your userpage (check my sandbox for an example), then change the attributes around from there. 23:27, 23 September 2017 (EDT)

Hint
Please try not to overreact like this. Just forward the issue to an admin.

06:43, 24 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Didn't know if any were on at the time, sorry. Also 5:45 in the morning where I live, so a little loopy. By the way, am I able to do the "reverted to last revision by (X)" thing, or can only admins do that? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2017 (EDT)

Discourtesy
While what that user was adding was invalid, remarks like this were not necessary. (To add to what Shokora stated) Continuing to make discourteous remarks this way would lead to a warning, so please avoid it. 06:44, 24 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Sorry. 5:45 in the morning where I live, so a little loopy. (I actually was going to ask "Are you stupid," but decided to soften it a little. And "Bloody" being vulgar is last I checked an urban legend.) By the way, am I able to do the "reverted to last revision by (X)" thing, or can only admins do that? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:48, 24 September 2017 (EDT)
 * That's the "rollback" function, which only admins can do. 06:51, 24 September 2017 (EDT)
 * OK then. To add to what I said before, I've also been suffering from minor depression, so...a liiiittle snappy. Particularly what I haven't slept and it's the mid AMs. Yeeeeah. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:53, 24 September 2017 (EDT)