Talk:List of implied characters

Kazooie
He is no longer an implied character so someone give me the permission to move it. Look at the article.

Images and Infoboxes
Can we include any images on this page? For example, should we put a real image of Annette Funicello here? We could also include images of their exact mention if they are mentioned in text. We could also do infoboxes if the "List of Implied Characters" header wasn't on all of them. 02:06, 4 January 2008 (EST)

5-Volt
I was wondering if 5-Volt should be included on this list? 17:38, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Yes! HyperToad

But wasn't she somewhat seen? That wouldn't really make her "implied". --Trogga 13:40, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Well... you can see what appear to be a sillhouette of her in Touched!, it could be her, but then, it could also be anyone.

Blitzwing
 * 5-Volt definately doesn't belong into this list. There is really only a sillhouette in Touched!, which wouldn't be worth an article. But in Twisted!, she appears in the epilogue of 9-Volt's story and tells him to go to bed. There her feet are visible. Later she looks after 9-Volt in his bed and tells him that he has to put his GBA away. Her sillhouette can be seen in the doorway. I think a character who is partly seen and even speaks doesn't belong here. --Grandy02 08:24, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Speaking alone doesn't merit an article, but you're right. We included Mario and Luigi's Parents are not on this list.  For consistency, we should either make 5-Volt its own article or include a link to M & L's parents (because if sillouetting defines a character as implied, then they are implied in the games and definite in other mediums).  00:42, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

List of
Rather then just characters can this be List of Implied Elements or something, to include things like The Blubbening? HyperToad
 * We decided that we should separate the Implieds by subject (we also have List of Implied Organizations and List of Implied Events,) otherwie, that list would be freaking huge.

Blitzwing
 * But neither helps with The Blubbening HyperToad
 * There ya go

Blitzwing

Johnson
We saw Johnson, as we saw the rest of Lord Clump's troops in that opening scene. If no one protests, I'm splitting his section out of this article. 00:05, 20 January 2009 (EST)
 * On Talk:Johnson (X-Naut), it was agreed that he would be put here. He's never actually seen separate from all the other X-Nauts, so it's impossible to tell which X-Naut he actually is. 00:09, 20 January 2009 (EST)


 * I just diagreed on the Johnson talk page, so there is no longer consensus (and thus I already seperated them). --
 * The definition of an implied character is that (s)he never appears. Johnson, on the other hand, was seen as were all the other X-Nauts working for Crump at that point in time.  00:49, 20 January 2009 (EST)

Splitting Sections and Big Changes
I removed information on real world characters from other media, as well as extremely minor character's relating to already minor characters. It is assumed that characters like this can easily be mentioned within a sentence eon the characters actual page. I also cleaned up each character section to fix spelling errors and speculation. It might seem like mass deletion, but it's really mas cleaning.

ALSO: This page should be split up into sections like in game and other media. It is confusing to think a character could be relevant when they were only mentioned in something as the cartoons which have little relevance to the canon of the games. FD09
 * There is no such thing called canon in the Marioverse. It is purely speculative and has no value in this matter (see Canonicity). Also, your ambitions are fine, but if you want to move content to another article, you have to actually move it there, not just delete it on one article and forget about it. Also: To decide which implied character is of importance and which not is not alone your decision! If you want to make some "big changes" to an article, you have to go through the propper channels and make a proposal first. You have still to adhere to the rules. - 22:35, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Per Edofenrir, stop removing content without permission. 22:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Look at your talk page! Look at my edit comments. I'm telling you that I'm not trying to just keep the info removed. I'm trying to re add that but also keep the fixes to grammar and spelling and such! FD09
 * It's readded. Now you can correct grammar if you want. 22:59, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
 * That was Obviously not how I was trying to go by it, and the way it is now is going to be a lot more work for me than it would have been if you had paid attention to my comments and what I was actually doing. FD09
 * Uh... No. It doesn't revolve around making editing easier for you. You should have stopped when you saw what was going on, and then asked here about it. But you had to make the cycle repeat five times, and then you come here, post what you are doing, and go ahead and do it right after. It doesn't work like that. 23:05, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Look, I could explain this to you so that you actually got it but obviously that would be too difficult. And last time I checked this site should revolve around the ease of editing pages for all users. I just want to say that while I was explaining it, instead of talking about it yourself you wait util you had the chance to get the article the way you wanted instead of waiting for me to finish to understand what I was actually doing by the time I received the warning. I'm done here. FD09

Look, I could explain this to you so that you actually got it but obviously that would be too difficult. And last time I checked this site should revolve around the ease of editing pages for all users. I just want to say that while I was explaining it, instead of talking about it yourself you wait util you had the chance to get the article the way you wanted instead of waiting for me to finish to understand what I was actually doing by the time I received the warning. I'm done here. FD09
 * Check the bolded sentence. And last time I checked this site should revolve around the ease of editing pages for all users. Obviously, you feel subracting ~10,000 bytes from a page and readding it later will be easier for all of us. It is only easy for you. Get permission to do this type of thing next time, and you won't run into any more problems, ok? Good. :) 23:14, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Clearly this just brings up the point that yet again you were oblivious to what I was trying to do. Maybe next time you should actually pay attention to what someone is saying and then nothing will even be an issue. :D FD09
 * Did you say it? And if so, where?

And just in case there's any confusion here:
 * 02:51, 21 October 2009 Super Paper Mario Bros. (Talk | contribs) m (46,925 bytes) (Reverted edits by ForeverDaisy09 (Talk); changed back to last version by Super Paper Mario Bros.)
 * 02:46, 21 October 2009 ForeverDaisy09 (Talk | contribs) (34,796 bytes) (Okay, now I'm gonna go back and re add the ow missing characters.)
 * 02:45, 21 October 2009 ForeverDaisy09 (Talk | contribs) (35,091 bytes) (Okay hold on a seocnd. I'm going to be adding some information back in a few minutes. It will take tha tlong so be patient.)

See what's bolded?As you can now read I was actually in the process of adding any of the information that needed to be there, BUT I was trying to keep the edits I made to errors as well as the splitting of where each character was mentioned. Oh well. FD09
 * Maybe you should learn listening to admins and don't revert their reversions five times without actually trying to clarify the situation! No, you just keep on complaining that we are unfair and you refuse to accept anything what we say. We had no other choice but to resort to a warning! And besides: You already had warnings at your talk page and I had the option to issue a last warning. I decided against it, you should be glad. - 23:24, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
 * And deleting masses of data and re-add them in I don't know how many edits is NO appropriate action! - 23:26, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Obviously as I said earlier explaining it to you would be a mistake as you still just wouldn't get it. It's fine. I understand that sometimes that's just the way it is. Regardless of the fact I was talking about receiving a warning for being ignored myself there is no point to try to explain it to you when you're stuck on the reverting I did when to get in a revert war there needs to be more than one person. I don't need to restate anymore obvious explanations, clearly. And, as I am officially done on this article, I am done here as well. Thanks. :) FD09
 * You seem to fail to notice the mistake you made. Fine, believe whatever you want to believe then. - 23:34, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

Question
If a character only appears in a game through dialogue, but in the manuel an image of that character appears, would he still be an implied character?
 * I don't think so. Any appearance counts. 08:21, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * All right. I was just wondering.

Bowser's Wife?
I do not know who created this picture, and I am unsure of the policy on using such images in articles, but image (in my opinion) is a very convincing drawing of what Bowser's wife (Clawdia) could look like. Do with it what you want. Dogman15 19:44, 3 January 2010 (EST)
 * Sorry, but we don't use fan art. --Grandy02 11:31, 11 January 2010 (EST)


 * I agree, but when will shigeru Miyamoto make a Mario game where the REAL illigitimate mother of the Koopalings makes an appearance? because Clawdia Koopa is just not a real character, neither is really Claudia Toadstool which happens to be MY Mario comic strip character in Deviantart.Com. Besides, Bowser no longer HAS a real wife even if he thinks; though he could be a a Polygamist, which is the same as Bigamist. Peach disregards that she was married to him anyway, so it could be considered "Divorce". Toonking2 11:43, 25 January 2010 (EST)


 * That looks like Bowser's mom in the first place, not his wife.

Unknown Guy
Unknown Guy was mentioned in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time on a sign in Gritzy Desert, would he be an implied character?

Rosalina's Mother
During the scenes of Rosalina's story, there is an image of Rosalina's mother, a clear close up of her, but only showing part of her shoulders and mouth (and there is other of her with her daughter Rosie silhouetted), so I think it's possible to make an article of her, since she is seen in the game and not only mentioned as it is thought, or also redirect the link to Rosalina's Storybook.

Francis's mother
Should we add Francis's mother to this article? She was mentioned but never seen.

Tails777

Separate Rosalina's Mother from Implied Characters
I don't know why nobody has replied this simple question, so I'll try to do it in this method. The problem is there above and the possible solution is to create a page for her or redirect her to Rosalina's Storybook page (I'd rather take the first option). Also, regarding to the article, an Implied character is when it is only and only mentioned, but in this case the character is not just mentioned, but also shown in a part of the story.


 * Proposer:
 * Deadline: February 20, 2010 23:59 GMT

Create Article

 * 1) Per proposal. It could be at least be a redirect to the Storybook page.
 * 2) I changed my mind. Per proposer.
 * 3) Let's see, the character was actually seen in Super Mario Galaxy…Why was this even here in the 1st place? Per Coincollector. Fade to black.
 * 4) - Let me show you the definition of "implied" from Wikitionary - "Suggested without being stated directly." Was Rosalina's mother "suggested without being stated directly"? Because the pictures of her are very hard to pass off as simple "suggestions" as to her existence, I think that Nintendo (in releasing those pictures) has directly stated ("stated directly") that she exists. Which therefore invalidates the definition of "implied" and is grounds for her removal from this page.
 * 1) - Let me show you the definition of "implied" from Wikitionary - "Suggested without being stated directly." Was Rosalina's mother "suggested without being stated directly"? Because the pictures of her are very hard to pass off as simple "suggestions" as to her existence, I think that Nintendo (in releasing those pictures) has directly stated ("stated directly") that she exists. Which therefore invalidates the definition of "implied" and is grounds for her removal from this page.

Redirect to Rosalina ' s Storybook

 * 1) I am Zero! Rosalina's Mother will be short since there's barely anything to mention to her. Zero signing out.
 * 2) Per Zero.
 * 3) I think i agree with Zero- you would have a stub article. Redirect.

Do Nothing

 * 1) That's exactly why we have this article, for stuff like this.
 * 2) - "(...)an Implied character is when it is only and only mentioned(...)" The character in question is only mentioned in a story and never appears in person. This is the only thing that counts. The fact that a picture of the character is shown in a book changes nothing; the character remains implied only.
 * 3) - I don't think a picture in an in-game book should be given more weight than a textual reference (i.e. Princess Eclair): either way, the character themself isn't appearing "in the flesh". Plus, Rosalina's father and brother both appear in the storybook as blurry nondescript figures in a couple pictures, and so if the mother gets her own page, they'd have to as well, and there's barely anything that can be written about them ("Rosalina went sledding down the hill with her brother when they were children."). It's better just to leave them all here.
 * 4) - Per all. It's like the Lakitu Travel issue. I opposed that, but now I see that it's barely seen, and deserves as much an article as Lakitu Travel did. The article would be a stub for someone who never appeared in person, just in a book.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
@ SWflash: There are minor characters that have appeared in the same way and has an article, and makes incosistent to keep a character that visually appeared within this list.

"The List of Implied Characters is a list of characters that have not physically appeared in any form of media up to this point in time." Hmm, doesn't say anything about the role of the character. Yeah, Coincollector has a point here, Rosalina's mother technically does have a physical form.
 * {|class=expandable style="background:#fcfcfc;border:1px solid black"


 * I think you're right. I've ripped some pics: Click show ->
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 * Sign comments, please.


 * Zero and supporters: A stub is an article that lacks sufficient information. Even though if her article is very short, if her article is complete with all the information she has, the article will NOT be considered a stub.

If the separated article is going to a be a stub, then this TPP wouldn't be valid. So therefore, that isn't a reason to oppose.-- 16:20, 10 February 2011 (EST)
 * @Supremo78: That reasoning could apply to two of the voting options; and is therefore invalid.
 * @Zero777: While technically valid, that is poor, poor, reasoning.

This proposal can easily be settled with a simple question: Do you ever see Rosalina's mother? And I am not referring to a picture of her or something, I mean the person herself. The answer is: No. You, as in the player, never catch a glimpse of this character's physical form in any way. Per definition, a character like this is implied. Excorporating Rosalina's mother from this list would go against the definition and is therefore illogical. - 22:11, 12 February 2011 (EST)
 * Per definition, Rosalina's mother is not a mere "suggestion" by Nintendo. They have confirmed she exists so it would go against the definition to incorporate Rosalina's mother in this list and is therefore illogical.


 * "The List of Implied Characters is a list of characters that have not physically appeared in any form of media up to this point in time" Our definition takes priority over anything from wiktionary.org, MG1. Not to mention that your definition is entirely taken out of context. - 22:19, 12 February 2011 (EST)

Our definition can be edited at any time; it was written by one user and our policies should not be defined by what a single user wrote down. The wikitionary's definition is the definition of the word "implied". "Implied" signifies that it has not been confirmed; that it is still speculated. This is not the case. And my definition cannot possibly be taken out of context considering I quoted everything on that page (save for headers and pronunciation).
 * Even if your definition were within context, it would still be meaningless. You say that to be "implied", something has to be merely "suggested". I ask you: What is a picture in a book? It's a suggestion. What is the confirmation of Nintendo? It's a suggestion. This is not about whether the character exists or not; I have no doubt that Rosalina's mother existed at some point. No, this is about whether this character makes an appearance in the game that is not a suggestion: A physical appearance of the character herself. You are unable to provide such an appearance, because there is none. All you can do is citing sources that suggest this character exists, which is completely beside the point. This character does not make a clear and physical appearance, and therefore your line of argument is moot. All that's left for me is to hope that the majority of users will make a logical decision, and not be swayed by baseless semantics. I rest my case. - 22:39, 12 February 2011 (EST)
 * @Edofenrir: I see your point, and I hope you see mine. It all comes down to whether or not we consider a picture a suggestion, or proof that this character exists. I believe the fact that Nintendo has outright said (in picture form) that she exists is confirmation enough, you believe that as she has never appeared in person, she has not been confirmed. It comes down to our best judgment on what "confirmation" is.
 * @Zero and the people "per"ing him. That is the only point that I see no logic in supporting. We cannot just merge together two articles because they one appears in the other. For instance, The Weekly Wario is a stub about a newspaper published by WarioWare Inc., do we merge it into WarioWare Inc. because one makes the other? No we do not, why? Because the weekly wario is an element of the game, as is Rosalina's mother. Rosalina's mother and the storybook are not the same thing - just as The Weekly Wario and its publisher are not the same. This is the only point that I see no point in supporting.
 * I don't think a picture should be considered to be "outright proof" any more than text when it comes to in-game stories. Take Blumiere's story for example: sure it wasn't illustrated, but the lines of dialogue are just as concrete as Rosalina's watercolours, in my opinion: if her mom is considered "confirmed", his father should be as well (and vice-versa). I do agree with your second paragraph, however. Merging a character into the media they appeared in makes little sense to begin with: it's like putting an orange in a bushel of apples - it doesn't work. While we probably don't have a policy saying that characters belong in character articles, not in sections in object articles, I feel like that option shouldn't have even been provided. - 23:17, 13 February 2011 (EST)


 * The redirect option was not the best for me. But it has less sense to leave the character description here either, since there is a picture, which breaks the definition of "implied", unless the Mariowiki liked to give another meaning to such word. I didn't try to count the other characters because they are indetermined (that's obvious), not like how Rosalina's mother is seen.
 * Just because she has an image doesn't mean she's not implied. The definition of implied, at least on this wiki, is someone that is suggested to exist. She is only seen in illustrations in a story book, not an actual photo. So while Rosaline's mother does have an image, she's still implied.

OK, I'm becoming tired of the issue, but maybe this can change my decision. Besides the word implied means a suggestion it can also be an indirect statement, I want to know (since I never played the game) if rosalina admits that the character seen is her mother or she expresses rosa's mom like the mother of another girl - I've heard that the story she tells is in third person. Therefore is in this way, I can take another consideration. If so, I also propose to put this here, because in the game it is called Ferndozer but it's never seen in the game.
 * The words to the storybook confirm that the pictures ARE of her mother, confirming her mother exists, confirming that she is not a mere "implication".

"One night, the girl dreamt about her own mother"

- Rosalina's Storybook

I always thought "implied" was just a term we started using because "List of Things That Don't Actually Appear in Any Media" is too wordy for a title. Actually, originally the pages were only for things "mentioned in passing", but the definition was expanded shortly after that proposal to our current "not physically appeared" definition. It's not a definition of the word "implied", but of the purpose for these pages, which I think is more important (as do Edofenrir and Reversinator, at the very least, if I understand the comments correctly). And as I (and others) said earlier, pictures don't count as physical appearances any more than words on a page or a line of dialogue, and therefore do fall under the umbrella of these pages. Really, this discussion boils down to whether you go by the textbook definition of the title alone, or by wiki convention that's been in place since 2007. And pertaining to something MG1 said much earlier, the fact that one user wrote the definition doesn't mean it's not valid and worthy of following: hundreds of users have abided by it for years, so it can hardly be dismissed so off-handedly now. Besides, most of our rules and conventions can probably be traced back to single users: if it's true that "our policies should not be defined by what a single user wrote down", we'd have no policies. - 00:43, 18 February 2011 (EST)