MarioWiki:Main Page talk archive 19

Individual Pages
Hmmmm.... Question: Is there anything saying we can't make individual pages for Subspace Army ememies? Because we only have one. Not counting Primid.
 * Only that old importance policy might, but no one's paying attention to that anyway, so nothing's stopping you. 01:58, 12 April 2008 (EDT)


 * Cool. Thanks. :D

Also... Are wiki articles supposed to be in past or present tense?
 * It varies. When talking about events, either in game or in terms of actual series history, you want to use the past tense.  When talking about gameplay, like "the player can make Mario jump with A" you want to use present.  Does that clarify what you were thinking of?  21:11, 13 April 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeah, thanks. I'd seen it both ways, so this is perfect. :D

Wii Wheel

 * Hem hem, when it says Mario Kart Wii has been released in Japan and Europe under the "Nintendo News" category, it says it was released with the introduction of the Wii Wheel. That is not true, it had been packaged with the Grand Turismo game a year earlier.
 * Fixed that, thanks for noticing. - 13:12, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Was not made by Nintendo. is not the same as Nintendo's  -Girrrtacos

Check "Iwata Asks," -- There's a special NINTENDO team that worked on the Wii Wheel, not the Wii Steering Wheel. 22:49, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, the old wording made it sound like that because there is now a Wii Wheel, Mario Kart Wii was released, while it was the other way round. - 08:35, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

Sockpuppeter
looks like we have a new one: smoke.

...and lots more. 11:25, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

Categories
It appears to be an unwritten law that if a category is a sub-category of another category, every article of the sub-category must automatically fit into the super-category. Example: 1-vs-3 mini-games is a sub-category of Mini-games, because naturally any 1-vs-3 mini-game is automatically also a mini-game. But then, there are categories like Aliens, which are included in both the categories Species and Characters, although they can either be a species or a character, not both. This contradicts the unwritten law (which I support), so I think we should remove the two "super-categories" from Aliens (and some other examples), because not every alien is a species, and not every alien is a character. I hope this makes sense :P Opinions? 05:46, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

I looked through some more categories, and there are some such as Arachnids, which are categorized as Species. Tarantox however, which is categorized as an "Arachnid", is not a species, but a character. But actually it would be useful to categorize examples like "Aliens" and "Arachnids" as something. So, uh, we could make a category "Species & Characters" (dumb name, only an example) which we could use as a super-category for e.g. "Aliens" and "Arachnids". It would of course also contain the categories "Species" and "Characters". 06:09, 17 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think you can really make a difference between species and character for people like Toad. Characters are of a species. But the species itself isn't a character. The job would be done by removing the Characters category from Aliens etc. - 08:38, 17 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Well yeah, they are of a species, but they aren't a species themselves... Toad is clearly a character, not a species, though he is of a species. So, basically, it depends on how we define the relation between the category and the categorized element (i.e. what does it mean when an article is categorized as a "Species"?). Probably I'm just nit-picking, but still :P 09:41, 17 April 2008 (EDT)


 * Thinking of it...should an article have a first category and a second category, while the second category is a subcategoy of the first? Looks kind of superfluous for me. - 09:21, 17 April 2008 (EDT)
 * You mean something like "Enemies" as a first category and "Non-Game Enemies" as a second? I agree this is superfluous. 09:41, 17 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, that's how I meant it. - 13:01, 17 April 2008 (EDT)

"Low-Resolution Images"
I've noticed that part of our free use policy for artwork and screenshots states that images are to be low resolution, bolding added by me:

"This image is an illustration of a character in a video game, comic book, or animated television program or film. The copyright for it is most likely owned by either the publisher/producer and/or artist(s) producing the work in question. It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of character artwork for commentary on the character in question qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. See Wikipedia:Fair use for more information."

"This is a screenshot of a copyrighted computer or video game, and the copyright for it is most likely held by the company that developed the game. It is believed that the use of a limited number of web-resolution screenshots for identification and critical commentary on the computer or video game in question or the copyrighted character(s) depicted on the screenshot in question qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law, as such display does not significantly impede the right of the copyright holder to sell the copyrighted material, is not being used to turn a profit in this context, and presents ideas that cannot be exhibited otherwise. See Copyrights and fair use rationale."

I think we need to set some boundaries as to what images are considered low/web resolution. Just to clarify, I'm talking about really, really big images, like ones that don't even fit on a 1600x1400 monitor, like Image:MPDSMario.jpg. 01:40, 25 April 2008 (EDT)
 * This low-resolution rule is mainly intended for making companies unable to completely ban you from reporting about their stuff. Nintendo is however much more lax about showing their images around the web. It only has a set number of purposes you may not use them for:
 * "All content on this website, including articles, artwork, screen shots, graphics, logos, digital downloads and other files, may not be used on any other web site, in any publications, in public performances, in connection with any product or service that is not Nintendo's, in any manner that is likely to cause confusion among customers, in any manner that disparages or discredits Nintendo, or in any manner that is otherwise exploitative for any commercial purpose or that otherwise infringes Nintendo's intellectual property rights."
 * (From Smash Bros. Dojo). A different question is whether we really need images as big as the Mario one you showed there. That's a scale that is no longer useful for our articles. - 08:52, 25 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Good call. I'm pretty sure that the 15 or so images I've seen that are rediculously large are all artwork copywritten by Nintendo, so we're safe.  20:15, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm worried about that, actually, because I uploaded a bigger version of a certain inage, Image:Mario.jpg. I was wonering, is it still low resolution or web resolution or whatever? I mean, I found it on another wiki, the Gamehiker Wiki, so I guess that must mean it's okay, but I'd like someone to confirm. 17:18, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * We are allowed by Nintendo to have any resolution of an image on our wiki, we don't need to worry about images coming directly from them (read copyright notice above). - 17:30, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Poisonous is spelled wrong :|

"Sub-species"
I think the wiki is way too lenient on giving out the status of a "sub-species" to almost everything. Sure, a Paragoomba is a sub-species of Goomba, because it has evolved wings. But why should a Sad Dry Bones be a sub-species of a Dry Bones? They are exactly the same, simply in a different mood. Also, concerning Super Mario RPG enemies, Gorgon is considered a sub-species of Enigma. Why? Because the Enigma is the first to appear in the game? They are similar, without doubt, but that doesn't qualifiy for being sub-species of each other. On terms of Subspecies, all have to be treated equally as well. So "regular Goomba without anything" is itself a subspecies of "Goomba". I don't think the whole concept of sub-species really fits into Mario games. Paragoombas lose their wings when jumped upon. That doesn't change them in any zoological way. The term "species" shouldn't be used in that case at all. What about "variety"? - 16:05, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

I agree. For instance, variety should be better.
 * Agreed.
 * Any more comments or should we go ahead changing that? - 13:02, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Just that I should have been more careful with the term when I first used it two years ago.


 * That's two terms I've invented that have caused problems. -_-' -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 16:01, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Chat problem
The mariowiki chatroom lost its chanserv registration and there were no users so the system op-ed me by mistake. Now the chatroom is gone. Anybody know what happend?-- 10:02, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not sure what happened, but I'm in there right now – ChanServ there and Steve is oped. The server probably hiccuped, making ChanServ leave from all channels for a short time. 10:38, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
 * And thats a Server Split.

Super Blooper
OK, so I'm seeing which Paper Mario enemies don't have tattles, and I was searching for the Super Blooper of the game. Now, click this link: Super Blooper. That ain't the giant squid of Paper Mario. It seems to be the living Super Blooper's talk page, but the history says that the page was started as the kart. I need the info on the live one. Any help, por favor?
 * Wayoshi for some reason deleted the enemies' page in order to move the kart's page onto it. Must have been a mistake. I restored it. - 05:13, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Thank you. ;)

Chat nick theft as a DoS attack, I need help
Some guy in chat registered the nicks i use so i could not use them in chat. I have no acess to them at all because some nick abuser regstered the nick that wasnt his. Anybody know what to do because I need help.-- 13:34, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Uh... Maybe you should take it to Darkmyst? GreenKoopa - Comments or questions?

Someone stole my name before I even got to use the chat. 14:50, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Darkmyst.org specifically states that it's first-come, first-serve, and they are not responsible. 17:24, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Player
Okay, I've noticed a recurring grammatical problem in almost every article. Such as: "When the player decides to stop here, they will meet Pokey, the guardian of the desert."

I pulled that from this article before I changed it. Note how it says "they" after "player". This is not correct; it should be "he or she" (which is what I changed it to). Now, this isn't a problem strictly on this site – I've found it everywhere. "Player" is singular, while "they" is plural; these to words don't grammatically compliment each other. "Player" - "he/she; him/her" (depending on the context) – "players" - "they; them" (depending on the context). I know this probably seems like a small issue, but I wanted to point out the correct way to write it; after all – we want the most professional writing we can get. 12:33, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It's the "singular" they problem. Basically, "they" is used in order to mean "he or she". I never really got the meaning of it. In German, you can simply use "he" all over because the word "player" is male. :/ - 12:38, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I rest my case. It just never sounded right. =|
 * Well, it's still a stylistic problem and we could really decide how to handle that matter. - 12:45, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed...but, I guess since "they" can mean "he/she" (something I was completely oblivious to), then there really is no wrong way to write. 12:51, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It's an interesting linguistic problem, because indeed you would expect syntactic agreement between the noun and the pronoun. But there are exceptions (compare "The couple have separated" - plural verb form, even if it's a singular noun). So I don't really see a problem with using the "singular they", but I can't judge how it sounds to native speakers. 12:55, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I can see something "wrong" with it, but I breeze right by it, understanding what it means. He/she and him/her takes up so much room, writers are just lazy and save time. :P 12:58, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's true. A lot of times I use a plural verb with a singular noun (or vice-versa) when I speak – I always took it that I was speaking incorrectly. But, now that I know about the "singular they", I see that there never really was a linguistic problem to begin with. (Plus there's the fact of "lazy users". :P) Thank you all for clearing it up for me. 13:00, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I dunno, Rooben: I was always taught that they was incorrect when refering to a singular noun (ie player). Even couple is a singular noun, so you need a singular pronoun... technically.  I think TimeQ's example may be incorrect: I would always write, "The couple has separated." But note, I'm refering to the couple.  Now, if check this out, "Mario and Peach, the couple, have separated." When the noun is a singular noun, like couple, family, or army, you use singular verbs and pronouns.  23:18, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm studying linguistics, and we got some examples of grammatical (i.e. "grammatically correct") sentences where there's no syntactic agreement between the numbers of noun and verb, but rather semantic agreement, one of which was "The couple have separated" (semantic agreement means that the number of the verb is determined by the meaning of the noun rather than its grammatical form: a "couple" consists of two persons, that's why "The couple have separated" is acceptable). Another grammatical example we got is "The government are divided". And it's also possible to say "The family have...", because a family always consists of several people, isn't it? However, Stumpers, you also got a point, because to you it sounds incorrect. This means that not everybody accepts the "non-syntactic agreement", and thus we might agree upon a form that everybody accepts. 05:10, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Stumpers: Okay, I'm glad to know my school books didn't teach me wrong – that you agree with what I first stated. Time Q: I find that it will be difficult to come to agreement on what form of writing would be better written, because everyone uses words differently (as witnessed above). However, if we leave the situation untouched, then it may cause edit wars – probably minor ones at that, but nonetheless a problem. It seems somewhat like a paradox to me. 15:14, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Nintendo
Uh why did you guys put the nintendo recalls a poisonous series of mario-pins on the front page?
 * Read it as: We don't have any news worth noting. - 16:56, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Poisonous pins? What next, spiked wiimotes? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 18:20, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Speaking of, they should be mentioned on the merchandise page. I have an image of them on my desktop waiting for me to get around to that.  18:30, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The pins or the spiked wiimotes? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 18:45, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The pins, although I really want one of those Wiimotes now. Here's some sources: Nintendo, CPSC. The second one has an image. 17:18, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Navigation templates

 * Navigational templates provide navigation

- Wikipedia:Navigational templates. We at the MarioWiki are guilty of neglecting many of these rules. I think we need a general reconception of how to handle our navigation templates. We should work out a new style for templates and categories, to prevent having navigation sections like of the main characters, which are simply there but hopeless to navigate in or find anything that might else be of interest for you. doesn't really need to link to Mario (!), for example. Thus, we could remove it from his page. In the end, those templates would turn out usable. - 19:09, 17 May 2008 (EDT) I would agree, we definitely need a new style of those templates. And funny thing is that I forgot to tell you that I'm trying to update the templates, (see Template:Mario Party 1, Template:Party3Items and Template:Shy_Guys) similar to Wikipedia's navbox template, but I encountered problems that I can't recreate the features. So I wanted to see if you agree if we should get the Navbox template from Wikipedia... But this is definitely better than I expected! I seen Stooben Rooben writing off new templates that most of the users seem to annoy them. Plus the Mario article is full of near-useless templates that can clog up the pages. What happened to my text? It seems it's merged to yours Cobold. ;0
 * The goal is not to cram as many related articles as possible into one space. Ask yourself, does this help the reader in reading up on related topics? Take any two articles in the template. Would a reader really want to go from A to B?
 * They should be kept small in size as a large template has limited navigational value. For article series with many articles, consider:
 * Split them into multiple, smaller templates on each sub-topic. For example, lists all models of diesel locomotives built by one manufacturer, but is too large to be transcluded on each of their articles. Instead, the individual sections of  were split out into their own templates: ,  , etc.
 * Do the above with only one template using ParserFunctions.
 * Link only the immediately related articles while hiding the rest, like in the case of.
 * They should not be too small. A navigational template with less than a handful of links can easily be replaced by "See also" sections, or relevant and  links within the articles' sections.
 * 1) Templates like, and  contradict the first of Wikipedia's points. They immsenly cram links into one template which are more or less not related to the current article. A SSB character template should, for example, only linking from playable character to other playable characters. Primid or Hammer Bro. are not related to playable characters enough to warrant a link in a related template. The same goes for the Yoshi enemies and the SMRPG enemies. The Yoshi enemy template could be split apart into sections for each game, or each enemy class if that gives enough links.
 * 2) Templates like and  are immensly huge. They violate the second rule: they could easily be split up into one template for each game, and thus be much easier to handle, read, and you could actually find what you are looking for. Smaller racecourses templates could be arranged in columns for the cups, and list the retro tracks of Mario Kart DS and Wii as well.
 * 3) Templates like, , and  give you an immense list of links you probably don't care about. They don't even provide links of articles you would want to check if you are already reading one with this template. Mario can do magic, but only for fireballs and similar things. He is not, like Kamek or Zelda, someone who dominantly uses magic and thus can be called a magician. Mario isn't worth of being on the Magicians template. These templates only give you a list of very vaguely related stuff. This is not what navigation templates are for - we have categories for that, guys!
 * 4) is way too small. Even more so, it completely overlaps with . It doesn't do anything to help you finding an additional, related article.
 * , and  overlap heavily. They all contain Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Koopa Troopa and Yoshi, and two of them contain Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Wario, Waluigi, Daisy, Toadette, King Boo, Birdo, and some I forgot. They take up space but don't really provide any additional information for someone viewing Mario's page. They could simply be categories as well.
 * I have to say, I feel like I should be the dominant blame-taker here. For about three months, I made a navigation template almost everyday – most of which, when I look at them now seem quite useless. Coincollector confronted me about a month ago about the chaotic layout of all the navigation templates on the wiki; I was rather oblivious to the entire aesthetic look until then. Since so, I almost completely stopped making navigation templates, and instead try to make them more organized on the articles; to be precise, what I try to do is arrange the navigation templates into a pyramid – first going from narrowest to widest, then from shallowest to deepest. It doesn't appear to be working, but I didn't know what to do. So, for what little it's worth, I want to say "I'm sorry" for creating such a chaotic mess with these navigation templates. 22:09, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

I was suggesting about installing the "collapsible table" property to this wiki - The collapsible navigation box from wikipedia, not mine... I almost had installed this here, but it didn't work because it needs somehow an interaction with the CSS and javascript codes. :/ "complicated? my 'creation' sometimes doesn't work as I want" To Coincollector, I see you have tried to use my renewing method which looks suspiciously like Wikipedia's. For some reason, it's incorrect. Well, two things: One, the first slot is not aligned to the right; and two, the second slot is that it's not alphabetically organized. I think we should install the navbox template. I beast am I with Hooky as two dragons together in their home which is to belong.
 * Agreed. 22:30, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

Did you know?
Although the did you know section states that Waluigi is heavy character on Mario Kart Wii, this is untrue. The charecters are not light, medium, and heavy, they are small, medium and large.
 * That's true. You can edit by yourself, by the way. -  12:54, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

Problem with Firefox
Since yesterday, the wiki has huge trouble loading when I'm using Firefox. For some reasons, the wiki work fine with IE6 (Fine... Well, as fine as IE6 can work :|), but it doesn,t even bother to load with Firefox. Am I the only one with this problem?
 * No, I am too. This site has been running hideously slow. 20:51, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

Away
Just in case anyone missed the note on my Userpage, I will be unavailable from about noon tomorrow until next Monday night, due to attending FanimeCon 2008. Any messages to me will be answered then. -- Chris 01:57, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Vandal
I have no idea if this is the right place to put this, but LD851 has been vandalizing several pages. Look at his (or her) contributions, and just look at a few and then you'll see what I mean. He (or she) needs a warning. 17:13, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That user is already blocked. - 17:27, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Okay, good. 10:45, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Page for "Alternate Dimension"
I was wondering, for those of you who saw the Super Mario Bros. film, would you think it wise to create a page for the alternate dimension that includes Dinohatten? I am aware that the term Alternate Dimension, even though it is the most official since Toad uses it in the movie, is not specific to the movie: it also appears within the Wario series and there is of course the fact that Smithy comes from an alternate dimension. So, here's what I'm thinking: how about a page, named alternate dimension, that has a section for each of the alternate dimensions in the Mario series? There's three I know of so far, but I'm pretty sure Super Paper Mario has something about alternate dimensions, yes? 17:25, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't see a problem with making this page. Super Paper Mario definitely does have a big part with alternate dimensions. I'm up to chapter 5-3 of the game, so I could help somewhat. In case someone reads this and hasn't played the game, I'll merely say that The Void tears a large hole into all alternate dimensions, leading to their imminent destruction – if I say more, I might ruin the storyline. 18:49, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Image
Is it possible to rename images? Not upload the image with a different name; just rename it simple as that? Rappingwonders 04:53, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * As far as I know, this is not possible. 05:50, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I remember Hk or somebody from the olden days telling me it was possible once, but I have no idea how one could do that. I've been thinking it would be a good idea to have some sort of naming system for a while now, though.  08:28, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it would be good to be able to rename images which have "lol" etc. in their name, but afaik it's not possible without reuploading. - 12:03, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

To Rappingwonders, stop criticizing me. -_- (Source came from his talkpage) From the image files I named, the left side's for the name of the game with abbreviation and the right is the topic of the article. And for renaming images, it's not possible. :( If I have that power, as a crat; I would rename most of them, as in 3/4 of the image database. ^^ But if it possible, I wanna know... Heh heh heh, image master awaits! :P
 * Nah, even over at Wikia, it's very complicated. You must reupload it and then a Sysop must delete the original... Far too manual for much practical use.

Spoilers in featured article?
Europe and Australia havn't got Brawl and i feel its kinda a spoiler to featured Tabuu, i mean, c'mon, he's the final boss.


 * We are a wiki with information. I'm sorry, but we have spoilers. We're not going to change it because some people don't have the game.
 * When you click the link to Tabuu, the first thing you see is the spoiler template. 14:35, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * We had Dimentio as FA on the front page previously. When we had, we removed all spoiler content from the front page. But Tabuu's entire subject is a spoiler basically, so I don't know what to do. - 14:52, 25 May 2008 (EDT)


 * It's not as if we can ban all Featured Articles about subjects that are spoilers. You understand that right? 17:25, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Why don't you just put a spoiler template or notice on the top of the FA and call it a day? 23:22, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * We did that when Dimentio was an FA and Wayoshi got all bent out of shape about it. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 19:34, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It just messed up the format was all... 19:45, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I thought we solved it by just putting in bolded text rather than the template... but then again I wasn't part of that discussion. 00:42, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

And can we at least just change King Boo's image? V_V;

What do you mean was the featured article? It's still the FA!!-KP Blue
 * I just noticed that myself. I still say FAs are a waste of time. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 00:52, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Da Da Da DAAAAAAA
I wanted to officially (and pompously) announce my return to the wiki... you know, now that schools over. Hi everyone! - Ultimatetoad

Umm..
Why were the pages Donkey Kong 64 DS and Waluigi's Hat deleted?


 * 1. because there's no proof that Donkey Kong 64 DS exists.

2. probably because it doesn't meet notability standards. if you can find some source that proves that a Donkey Kong 64 DS is in the works, I'm sure they won't delete the article about it. As for Waluigi's Hat, I doubt that page will remain unless Waluigi himself becomes more important. Goomb-omb 17:36, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Post new topics at the bottom of the page. As a side not for Waluigi's Hat, it doesn't affect the gameplay, so no article is needed.
 * Um is it enough proof when a magazine says that: Nintendo wont be releasing Donkey Kong 64 on the virtual consol, they were thinking more in the DS direction.? If so I'll try to find the source.

Quote of Day's Error
hhhhmmmmm... an error appeared in one of the Quote of Days,

The error quote is:

“Goddess Palutena, victory is ours!The fight is on!!”

—PitPit, Super Smash Bros. BrawlSuper Smash Bros. Brawl

weird, PitPit :P

Shadowboo2800 19:03, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

It appears that more than one quote template is used in the Pit article, resulting in an error Wayoshi had mentioned. Only one is allowed. However, if there's more than one quote, have the and slot it in.
 * If I recall, I've used that template on a couple final smash articles to show what Sakurai's thoughts on them were, and they showed up on the main page, too. Does that mean anything?  13:33, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Well, having one than one templates results in an automatic combination due to the DPL picking up everything that detects the quote in an article and shows it in the main page (or more precisely the template that shows it). I better move this talk page to an archive...

Headline text
Hey, isn't my Proposal the latest one? If it says Latest Proposal, it should be the actual one, which is mine. Not that there was anything wrong with the currently showing one...

This is a life-or-death situation!


 * Feel free to update that template at template:proposal. 10:50, 21 June 2008 (EDT)