Talk:Lava Piranha

Split Lava Bud
Considering that Crystal Bit has already been split from Crystal King, but also considering that the Lava Bud was merged with a proposal, is it necessary to make a proposal to call for its split? I'll also throw out that Petit Piranha exists as an independent article. 14:04, 11 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I mean, considering that this is the only boss-created enemy from a Mario RPG that doesn't have its own article (as far as I know), I don't really see why it'd need a proposal. Besides, both other types of Piranha Plant buds have their own pages, and they don't even have official names. Niiue (talk) 20:31, 12 August 2017 (EDT)

Split Lava Bud from Lava Piranha
With Crystal Bit split from Crystal King via proposal and Petit Piranha already split from Lava Piranha, I don't see why the Lava Bud should be left by the wayside. Yes, they're extensions of the Lava Piranha - so are Bungee Buds and Naval Buds and the previously mentioned enemies. Otherwise, the game treats them as individual enemies in every regard, with different names, different stats, and different abilities, like a proper enemy. If they're considered to be separate in-game, their articles should also be separate.

Proposer: Deadline: September 5, 2017 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) I want to point out that Lava Bud was made a redirect today and the one who made it a redirect is supporting this. I don't get why this is this way, but I will support too. Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) - Consistency!
 * 10) bungee buds and naval buds have their own article. so why not lava buds? per all.
 * 11) This proposal will inevitably pass, but I'm still voting. Per all.

Comments
Because there was a proposal to merge these and until this proposal passes that is the law of the wiki
 * Shouldn't we just cancel this proposal and enact the changes immediately, given the mass support and need for consistency? 23:37, 21 August 2017 (EDT)
 * No this proposal hasn't passed and therefore hasn't overturned the previous consensus.

I just wanna mention not too long ago we just about unanimously axed a dedicated "Piranha Bud" page, as seen here... now we're bringing it back almost unanimously. Guys, make up your minds, pls.  ~Camwood777  21:03, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * They're not the same thing. "Piranha Bud" was a fictitious species that assumed that Lava Bud, Bungee Bud, and Naval Bud were derived species of it despite there being nothing to support this idea beyond their similar appearances. Lava Bud is the real enemy that appears in a real boss battle with real traits that set it apart. 21:11, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Fair point. I still don't understand why we didn't just make that thing a disambiguation page, though.  ~Camwood777  10:26, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Disambiguation pages are for clarifying what a reader is looking for if they submit a potentially vague or general term. For example, the name "David" could refer to several individuals with that name, therefore the page disambiguates between each possible David. With Piranha Bud, nobody is searching for that term in the first place (because it's a made-up name for a fictitious species), therefore there's no need to devote space to it. 00:16, 31 August 2017 (EDT)

Wither
The article states that Wither in the Minecraft Mash-up is replaced by Lava Piranha. However, due to the creature having spots and not rings, wouldn't Naval Piranha or possibly even Megasmilax be more likely candidates? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:27, 7 September 2018 (EDT)
 * I suppose it depends on what projectiles it spits. If it's fireballs, I think that would make it pretty clear. -- 16:29, 7 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Megasmilax did that too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:30, 7 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Taking a look at the Minecraft creature, in my opinion, this is almost assuredly Megasmilax and two Smilaxes. It's most likely not supposed to represent Naval Piranha because it never had fire attacks, and it shouldn't be Lava Piranha due to the spot design and the fact that Lava Buds actually didn't have fiery breath (rather, they spit Petit Piranhas). Additionally, the design is much closer to Megasmilax, with the heads/buds resembling Piranhas/Smilaxes rather than Naval/Lava Buds, and having bottom teeth and a similar-looking stem. Finally, both Megasmilax and Smilax had fire-based attacks, which is represented by this "Wither" Plant. The only dissimilarity is that Megasmilax did not originally have a visible tongue, but neither did Piranha Plants, so this seems like a general design evolution. If it's just a texture and not a name change, I motion Megasmilax. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:26, October 20, 2020 (EDT)

Regarding this and Fire Piranha Plant
While on the surface, these seem like two wholly different subjects, the amount of evidence this is simply an atypical iteration of Fire Piranha Plant is just too much to ignore. Unlike the other chapter bosses, the game writes Lava Piranhas as a species, and in the Japanese script, Goombario's comment is to say that somehow Fire Piranha Plant can also survive in lava (in addition to typical habitats). In the English script, it was altered a bit (possibly through the translator missing the point) so he says Lava Piranhas in general can survive lava, though this is not necessarily untrue for Fire Piranha Plants. That all being said, that would make it the only Chapter boss other than Bowser to be from a previous game, and this iteration has clear influence from Naval Piranha. It could be considered sort of similar to how this game's Spear Guys have Dancing Spear Guy traits mixed in. Now, as for Petit Piranha and Nipper Plant, they seem even more different, though it seems a fiery combination of Nipper Plant and Nipper Spore that could be seen as another bizarro iteration in my opinion. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:08, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
 * No way am I agreeing on merging this with Fire Piranha Plant. It may be referred to as a species, but it is a boss with its own name in every version outside of Japan, doesn't look like a normal Fire Piranha Plant, and even if its English name was the same, its role is still enough for it to remain its own article. We even have articles on subjects with the same name as the rest of their species but with boss roles instead of normal enemies, such as Big Boo (boss).
 * Which itself should be merged, those even use the same graphics. Besides, this is the only example in the game, so that example doesn't correlate anyways. This is more like the giant-sized Hammer Bros. in Super Mario RPG. Or the ginormous Blooper boss with actual squid tentacles in TTYD. Of particular note in the latter case is "typical" ones appear as enemies in a Bowser segment and a different normal-sized one is a Luigi partner, but the game still considers it a "normal" Blooper (though I think a Smash tip might note its size). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, October 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah, no... Even if Lava Piranha is meant to be a bizarre interpretation of Fire Piranha Plant, a merge would ignore the fact that this particular Lava Piranha is still a significant individual in the game which would make it worthy of its own page - I feel the same way about the ongoing discussion with Prince Froggy. I'm curious about your thoughts on Mega Goomba from NSMB, who we clearly see on screen as just an ordinary Goomba before transforming. -- 15:14, October 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * My thoughts on it are still "merge with Megasparkle Goomba." Regardless, Mega Goomba is more akin to Hookbill the Koopa or Naval Piranha, in that their JP identifiers are different from the typical "big" ones. And I think it's still important to note that Goombario doesn't consider this worthy of being called an individual, he treats it as any old Fire/Lava Piranha Plant. I feel this also ties into the discussion on Fire Piranha Plant's page: if we're going game-by-game to determine what isn't a Fire Piranha Plant, should we not do the same to determine what is? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:10, October 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * In theory, I would agree with merging. In practice, given Lavalava Island's Yoshi references (Raphael the Raven?) and the expanded role, design and gameplay of the Lava Piranha boss, I feel like this Lava Piranha mainly serves as a fiery counterpart of Naval Piranha, named as such in Japanese because no other regular Fire Piranhas appear in Paper Mario. Not to mention that both Fire Piranha and Lava Piranha are apparently represented in the Super Mario Mash-Up Pack in Nintendo versions of Minecraft, and the latter had a special appearance in Super Mario Kun. So I guess my question is this: why merge outright when the current setup - namely with Fire Piranha being labelled as the parent species of Lava Piranha and the former article even including it in a Paper Mario section - seems adequate enough? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:57, October 19, 2020 (EDT)
 * I really don't think the Minecraft thing is Lava Piranha, as mentioned above. I'm also on the fence regarding any "adequacy" here. Goombario's JP tattle essentially being "This is a Fire Piranha, and this one is somehow in lava" makes me feel the Naval Piranha similarities are an aesthetic thing to have the YI references go full-circle. Of course, it's possible that at some point the forward-facing normal-colorred Putrid Piranhas were meant to be Fire Piranhas, but that's just spitballing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:23, October 19, 2020 (EDT)
 * (I didn't see the Minecraft Piranha thing so I've addressed it above.) It's vague, but I take it the Tattle can also mean that the subject is a Fire Piranha that adapted to live in lava, not that Fire Piranhas in general can live in lava. I can't think of other examples of Fire Piranhas existing in lava. I know they're completely different games, but in the Super Mario Maker series, lava defeats Fire Piranhas, right? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:26, October 20, 2020 (EDT)
 * They gradually sink like any other non-Cheep enemy, including Thwomps and Dry Bones (both of which have been known to do perfectly fine in lava). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:51, October 21, 2020 (EDT)
 * Oppose for the reasons mentioned above. At most you could argue that Lava Piranha could count as a "notable individual" within the Fire Piranha Plant infobox, to the degree that Lava Piranha is a unique individual within the context of the Paper Mario story (even if there are multiple unseen Lava Piranhas according to a Tattle).Antimony (talk) 15:25, October 22, 2020 (EDT)
 * So? Again, TTYD's Blooper is a notable individual counted by the game as a normal one despite abnormal details. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:34, October 22, 2020 (EDT)
 * Regarding that Blooper boss, smaller, normal-sized Bloopers do appear elsewhere in The Thousand-Year Door during one of the Bowser sections, just not as an enemy that Mario fights. Though, putting Super Mario Maker aside: I think if there aren't other examples of Fire Piranhas in lava, it's probably too easily seen as unique enough for an article. You can look at it as the Pale Piranha situation. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:40, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * If anything, that adds fuel to my argument since they can be both considered normal Bloopers. In Sticker Star, they again live in a volcano, and by nature of burrowing into volcano rock they'd end up in lava at some point, though it's not explicitly seen. Also, I think it's pretty obvious given the tattles in different languages that "Pale Piranha" is a result of the game's mediocre translation that isn't even consistent with itself and merging them should be high-priority. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:14, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well, except the Super Smash Bros. series basically retroactively specifies the Blooper as a Big Blooper. Though on that note, regarding TTYD Piranha Plant: there is something to be said about Viridi remembering "Killer Packun" in the Japanese dub but forgetting "Pale Piranha" in the English dub, in all fairness. I mainly wasn't sure how to handle Pale Piranha given the parallels with Moon Cleft. Either way, probably belongs in different discussions. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:59, October 25, 2020 (EDT)

Just want to mention that I'm still strongly opposing merging them and I am not budging on it.
 * Wholly agreed, not to mention that this particular Piranha plant is a individual character derived species (strange that it's not an individual character, but I digress); just state that they're a derived species of Fire Piranha Plant at best and call it a day. Nothing can sway me otherwise. 15:23, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Not according to Goombario. Also, it refers to itself in the plural, indicating the Lava Buds are both connected to and separate from it. Therefore, calling it an "individual character" is straight-up contradicting the game at best, which is disingenuous and fanon-y. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:10, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Changed accordingly. But the point still stands. 16:20, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * As noted in my initial posting, though, Goombario's tattle in the JP version amounts to "this is a Fire Piranha and somehow it can be in lava too," which was mangled a bit in translation to "this is a Lava Piranha and they can somehow be in lava." The initial wording can still be gleaned from it, though, so it's not quite a derived species either; it's the same species with slightly different properties from normal, more along the lines of the (real-life, not misused as this wiki formerly did) definition of a subspecies (which is still the same species). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:26, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Goombario's statement doesn't mean anything for Lava Piranha's individuality. Being a generic member of a species doesn't somehow make you "not a character" (and in this case, only allegedly generic, since we never actually see any other Lava Piranhas). I tried to address the point about it referring to itself in the plural and rewrote it multiple times, but frankly, it makes no sense at all to me. Either it's referring to itself and the Lava Buds as a group, which means Lava Piranha is still an individual character, or itself and the Lava Buds as a single entity, which... also means Lava Piranha is still an individual character. -- 16:33, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Not to mention this will most likely confuse the hell out of a lot of readers.
 * Agreed with Keyblade Master. 17:50, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * A: The Lava Buds are "other Lava Piranhas" by technicality if one considers them separate. B: "In Paper Mario, Venus Fire Traps are called Lava Piranhas. One appears as the boss of Mount Lavalava, where in fitting with the chapter's influence from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, it takes design influence from Naval Piranha. Despite its unusual design, it is still repeatedly acknowledged as simply a nonspecific member of a species by the game, with the Japanese script clarifying that species is Venus Fire Trap." What is there to be confused about? Either way, saying "It's better to separate subjects games consider the same because they seem different enough it might confuse some readers" is putting subjective attributal homogeny (I wish I could find a simpler way to put that) over objective accuracy to the creator's own word. Which is again, disingenuous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:48, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * People who don't have that mindset will mainly think "why is this not its own article then?"
 * Considering what I'm saying is generally how we do things anyway, I see not what the issue is. Besides, my mindset is "why is this not the same article then?" Why should the separator mindset take priority over how we otherwise typically do things? It's a translation inconsistency stemming partially from one of the game's unique designs (and hardly the only abnormal design in said game...looking at you, Lava Bubble). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:04, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * (double edit conflict) You still don't see why merging these is a fatal mistake? Even with the text you provided, no-one's first impression of the Lava Piranha will be "ah yes, definitely the same as a Fire Piranha Plant". It's fine to consider this a derived species or individual type of Fire Piranha Plant, but not how you're handling things. Seemingly, no-one except you says "it's a drastically different variant, therefore that automatically warrants a merge with its parent article". 19:05, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Same could be said of Spiny Cheep Cheep, and merging them was still the right thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:10, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't think Lava Buds are other Lava Piranhas, their tattle specifically says they branch out from Lava Piranha's stem. And even if they were, either the main Piranha or the Buds would have to be the standard one, can't really have both. -- 19:06, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well the JP script calls them its appendages, so it could easily just have some sorta Cerberus thing going on. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:11, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * That seems like speculation to me.
 * That particular note is merely a bit of lighthearted spitballing, but it's merely a side-point to note that WT's "can't really have both" isn't necessarily correct. Regardless, this conversation isn't so much about Lava Buds. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:16, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * I was saying that if they are separate things (which it seems they aren't), then they can't both be the standard version of Lava Piranha. But yeah, Lava Bud and what may or may not be the "standard" Lava Piranha isn't really relevant here, so I won't discuss it any further. -- 19:22, October 25, 2020 (EDT)

I... what? This is in no way a regular Fire Piranha Plant. Derivative, sure, but merging them together just based on them having the same Japanese name is ridiculous and confusing. The two act completely different, similar names shouldn't be a deciding factor for merging. 21:52, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Spiny Cheep Cheep says "Hello." Also, this is a Piranha Plant that breaths fire, so the JP name is hardly the only reason (and also it wasn't mentioned by Viridi even though Putrid and Frost were). Perhaps it's one of the "minor variations" she was cut off from saying, ergo a differentiation that isn't a different species, much as Pale Piranha is? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:16, October 25, 2020 (EDT)
 * Again, Fire P-Pakkun and Tane Pakkun were also omitted from Palutena's Guidance. Also, yeah, Spiny Cheep Cheep should be looked at, since there may be some entries that shouldn't be there. 00:39, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Spiny Cheep Cheep was looked at, though to be frank I think we're overemphasizing Piranha Plant's Guidance, which is believed to have used Japanese Wikipedia as research. I brought up Pale Piranha just as a particularly notable absence because it mentioned Killer Packun, so you'd think that'd be picked up on and swapped by its "regional counterpart", but that wasn't the case. Otherwise, it's correct that anything not mentioned is quickly written off at the end, but part of it may be due the repeating identical names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:00, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I meant to strike that sentence earlier, as that should be handled in a separate discussion. My bad. 11:51, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Also, "this is a Piranha Plant that breaths fire" is not an argument, it's an empty statement in this context. 00:42, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Good thing I wasn't using it as an argument, but as a counter to the claim that the JP name was the only similarity. Also, no reason to be so rude, jeeze, even my feelings eventually get hurt. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:07, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yes, it breathes fire, obviously, but that doesn't mean it's the same as the generic Fire Piranha Plant. It has other moves and a boss status to go along with it, and also *American* players are more familiar with the *English* name. 01:02, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Most RPG enemies get new moves, though...look at Blooper in both PM64 and TTYD. In the context of what Mario faces, it's a giant boss with many more moves than most depictions, and the TTYD one is rather distinct despite "usual" Bloopers appearing in Bowser segments and pre-Luigi-blunder Blooey. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:07, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * ...So? What difference does it really make? Not to mention that you haven't addressed the "boss status" argument either. 11:49, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * The Bloopers are bosses though. TTYD's is even the prologue's chapter boss. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:09, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * And yet they have their own articles. Again, I don't see the point. 12:18, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * ...no they don't, they are on Blooper's article. o.o Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:26, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah, because they are actually named "Blooper" in all instances. I can see people making fun of us for merging Lava Piranha with Fire Piranha Plant, or being very confused where Lava Piranha went, just because of the shared Japanese name. It is confusing and helps no one. 12:38, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Accuracy to the language of origin helps everyone. It is the most accurate way of doing things, particularly given translations are at the mercy of the localizers' whims and general competence (or lack thereof). Besides, following that logic, shouldn't we split Venus Fire Trap and Fire Piranha Plant? Only one of those could live in quicksand and breath multiple fireballs in one go, why should living in lava be treated any differently? Also...people make fun of us anyway, so what? That's part of why Super Mario Facts is a thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:43, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * afaik Venus and Fire were clearly meant to be the same thing, just got a rename later on. I can't say the same for Lava Piranha, considering it looks and acts much different from the other Piranha Plants in the game. While, yes, we can note the connection through the Foreign Names template, this is the *English* wiki first and foremost. It's not our place to correct localization. And I meant more in mockery than hilarity. 12:48, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * This is not merely "an English wiki," it is "the best source of Mario information on the Internet." In order to be that, we need to toss any silly Anglocentrism aside in our coverage. It's a predominantly Japanese franchise, and all of Paper Mario was developed there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:57, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * I bet even from a Japanese perspective, this would still be the sort of thing to be treated differently from the rest of its species.
 * Except it literally isn't. It's treated as "a Fire Packun." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Bringing up FANDOM just invalids your point. Yeah, I imagine it would be "Fire Pakkun (boss)" or something. But yes, exactly. We are the best source of Mario information, which means we need to be accurate. The English name is "Lava Piranha", and we aren't ignoring the Japanese name, it's just used in other Foreign Names template. It's not "silly" to use what we are given. 13:06, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * For the record, while I'm on the fence on a merge out of pragmatic reasons (namely boss entity role), I'm completely against reducing everything to just the names in other languages section, since I think the way it's currently handled is fine. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:09, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * And that's only by its name. The design of the thing and its abilitie, even its role are enough for it to stand out from the rest.
 * It's silly to put localization over creators intent. How can we be the best if we're sorting from a perspective that can't stay consistent with itself? Like I said, localized names vary with the drop of a hat. The devs can change the properties of a pre-existing entity without removing it from being said entity all they want, and splitting merely based on that is arbitrary. Aside from Spiny Cheep Cheep, look at normal Cheep Cheeps in the N64 Mario Party games. They look like Blurps, act like Boss Basses, and in the first one are called Bubbas, yet we still group them as Cheep Cheeps. Why? Because despite those inconsistencies, it's accurate to the source material. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:12, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, why is "same Japanese name = same thing" such a prevalent argument? Unrelated English subjects end up having the same name all the time, it's why we use identifiers. Sure, they're (usually) the translators, but what makes the Japanese so infallible that the possibility that they accidentally gave the same name to two different subjects is completely out of the question? Admittedly, this is somewhat unrelated to the current discussion since it's a bit more clear cut in this instance, just a thought I had. Back to Lava Piranha, if Goombas wearing ice skates or attached to balloons for example can get their own pages, why can't a Fire Piranha Plant that was specifically stated to have adapted to living in lava (and not just brushed off with "they are in lava in this game, deal with it") have its own article? -- 13:12, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Because in those cases there are actually "normal" Goombas by them. And again, it's not "Japanese name." It's "language of origin." Many of the Donkey Kong games actually were English first and foremost, so English gets the priority there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:19, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it's only the name and general theme that's similar, which is why I think the merge is not a good idea.
 * "Creator's intent" That's not up to us! I keep seeing this brought up, and it honestly does not matter. If it was really that important, localizers would've named it "Fire Piranha Plant", but they knew it wasn't the same enemy, so they gave it a different name. "Localizer's intent", then, does that matter? I might just keep using that in rebuttal. How do we even know if we aren't the creators? 13:15, October 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * Except they weren't even called "Fire Piranha Plant" then. And following that logic, let's treat "Bubu" as an implied character, Galoomba as merely being based off an unusual Goomba design, "Boo" Diddly, Boo Buddy, and Boo as being replacements for each other, and "Boss Packun" as different from Petey Piranha. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:19, October 26, 2020 (EDT)

What is your point with the Spiny Cheep Cheep?
 * Look on its page and note how no two pre-NSMBW designs look or act even remotely alike. If they can be pretty much anything with fins and spikes as long as it's called Togepuku, I feel Firepackun can be treated the same way. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:09, October 26, 2020 (EDT)