Talk:Kamek

Pic
Can we find a better picture for Kamek? This is just a generic Magikoopa from Super Mario World.--son.of.suns@gmail.com 22:49, 25 April 2006 (EDT)


 * Google 'Kamek Koopa,' find an image, save it, then upload it to the wiki. Switch out the images, and, shazam!, instant-Kamek. Though, really, what's the difference between Kamek and the average Koopa mage? --DarkInsanity (talk)

SMRPG Kamek
Just decided to say I got that information from the Wikipedia page while looking up Kamek's appearances. Since it had been there awhile without the "citation needed", I just stick it here, probably should have looked it up more.. -- Sir Grodus


 * I believe that that Magikoopa was Kamek, even if all Magikoopas are called "Kamek" in Japan. He says "Is that...my son?" (probably to Bowser) when you Psychopath him. I sorta think the SMRPG stuff should be put back... not that that has all that much to do with what you're saying now. --YellowYoshi398 12:42, 4 February 2007 (EST)


 * The problem is there are lots of Magikoopas in the game. The red one is but one of many (although he is the only one you fight). If you have a direct source from Nintendo saying "Ooops...that was actually Kamek in SMRPG" then we can change the article. Wikipedia does not even give a source for that info. We can put a section at the end of the article about this, and interpretations of the quote, but technically, in the US, that Magikoopa is just another Magikoopa. -- Son of Suns

I stuck some info. in the "Other Appearances" section, though it might be better off in a trivia section. -- Sir Grodus

If people would bother to look around the web, you'd know that the Magikoopa in Mario RPG is actually named カメザード (Kamezādo) in Japan. As far as I know this is the only appearance of such a character with this name. Vent (talk) 18:05, 12 December 2012 (EST)

Bowser's Family?
Why is he in this template (I believe)? MamaWaluigi 00:16, 30 July 2007 (EDT)
 * Because, although he is not related to him, he adopted Baby Bowser, and raised him when he was young. If you notice, in a few games, he is still looking after Bowser, even in the present day.
 * If this is so, then shouldn't it be in the article?
 * Kay-O. Already done.

Since we've seen the Super Mario Galaxy intro...
...Isn't it safe to assume that the Magikoopa in the Mario Galaxy artwork is Kamek? -- Klaus Kratchet

Not so possible, I guess

"Not so possible?" And is the Magikoopa ever actually called Kamek, or whatever Kamek's Japanese name is, anywhere? -- Sir Grodus

In Japan, all Magikoopas are named Kamek. I'm pretty sure the Magikoopa we see in the trailer is Kamek because I doubt Bowser would send a random Magikoopa to attack Mario, not to mention that when character artwork was released, we got one of the Magikoopa and not of a Whomp or Boo or Koopa. -- Klaus Kratchet

Yes, I know Magikoopa is Kamek in Japan, but is it called by Kamek's Japanese name? -- Sir Grodus

It's Super Mario RPG all over again. Hopefully Nintendo will confirm it's Kamek this time, but if they don't, I won't be surprised. - Walkazo

Honestly I don't think that the magikoopa at the intro of Super Mario Galaxy is Kamek, I know it's hard to tell since he just looks like any other magikoopa, but there is not a single clue in the whole game (like a quote or something) that tells you that magikoopa was Kamek... and if he was, he would be the magikoopa boss Mario has to fight instead of Kamella. --Merlock, Fire Shaman

I think someone mentioned a while back (in an edit summary or something) that a player's guide called the Magikoopa Kamek; of course, it may have been a third-party guide, lowering it's credibility significantly. -- Sir Grodus 22:11, 24 November 2007 (EST)

So what now? should we remove the part of Super Mario Galaxy in this article? incluiding the quote and the image at the top (since that's just a normal Magikoopa from SMG)? I would say yes, at least until we get official information from Nintendo and not a magazine or a guide... and for the image, use a Yoshi's Island DS or a Mario Party 8 one. For Klaus Kratchet, is well known that magikoopas are from the elite forces of the Koopa Clan (even Goombella's tattle about em says it), so it's perfectly possible that Bowser sent just a common magikoopa to get Mario, also I belive we got an artwork of a magikoopa because is the first time we get to see one in a 3D Super Mario game (excluding Mario Parties, I said SUPER Mario). --Merlock, Fire Shaman

It was a PRIMA GUIDE! Not just any third-party guide, a PRIMA GUIDE!--Koopapoopa 05:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

C'mon.
And evidence of Kamek being Bowser's adopted father is... Dodoman
 * Yes, he looks after Baby Bowser in Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Island DS, and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time. That is strong evidence he is Bowser's adopted father.

Maybe we should just replace adopted father with "guardian" or "caretaker" or something. -- Sir Grodus
 * That could work.


 * Caretaker works nicely, for he certainly fulfills that role. -- Son of Suns
 * We should use minion, because even at a young age, Bowser made Kamek do stuff for him (like get him cookies in Mario & Luigi Partners in Time.M&amp;L Beware my fury! 14:21, 30 January 2012 (EST)

Appearance in MP8
Didn't he appear in Mario Party 8 on Shy Guy's Perplex Express and Bowser's warped Orbit? --PaperStriker 04:10, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
 * I'm fairly sure he did. But, I don't have the game, so I can't really say for sure.
 * I believe he was. If not, sue me. :P


 * It's him in Bowser's Warped orbit. He has the broom. I'll add it to the article.Darth waluigi 21:44, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Kamek vs. generic Magikoopa
If "Kamek" is the Japanese term for all Magikoopas, then how exactly do we even know that one is separate from all of them? For example, in SMW2, does the Japanese version use Kamek as a name or a title? Just wondering... Thanos6 00:59, 9 November 2007 (EST)
 * Well, think of it this way: Yoshi is both a species and an individual character. Kamek, even if his name isn't different in the Japanese games, is the American name for one particular Magikoopa.  Just because Nintendo of America chose to give him a separate name makes no difference as to whether or not he is a separate character, as we've seen with Yoshi, Toad, Birdo, and a bunch of others.  It's just that we can say, "This is Kamek." instead of, "This is Magikoopa (character)."  19:45, 12 November 2007 (EST)
 * I agree with Stumpers. However I'm a bit confused when it comes to the robes worn by generic Magikoopas and Kamek; in most of the images the Magikoopas' hats aren't white-rimmed, nor are Kamek's in some of them. However other times, Kamek is shown to have a white-rimmed hat; then the artwork for Super Mario Galaxy came out and started causing me grief. Is that artwork for a generic Magikoopa or for the individual Magikoopa who blasted Mario away (who we seem to be identifying as Kamek)? All I know is the presence of the image on both Kamek's page and the Magikoopa's page is getting me muddled up, and it's bouund to confuse others too. - Walkazo

Wait... how can we ebb ure that the Magikoopa in Super Mario Galaxy is the Kamek? FOr what we know, it could simply be a generic Magikoopa. I watched the intro, and that Magikoopa isn't identified as Kamek anywhere. Glowsquid

I'm beginning to think we should just remove the SMG section and artwork, so far the only thing identifying the Magijoopa as Kamek is a Prima Guide (according to an edit summary). -- Sir Grodus 15:18, 29 November 2007 (EST)
 * Stinking Prima... I've made more than one false edit b/c of them. I think I remember that they messed up SMSun's enemy names in my guide.  Prima gives good info, but they tend to draw conclusions overmuch.  07:05, 3 December 2007 (EST)

Wrong.
That was NOT Kamek in the beginning of Super Mario Galaxy! Kamek is almost always seen with his trademarked Broom, and, there are several Magikoopas across the game that look just like that one in the beginning! I'm removing all that info about SMG, OK?
 * That means the picture isn't correct either, right? 07:08, 3 December 2007 (EST)

That is kinda true... TheGreenFire

I don't think that just lacking a broom means that this can't be Kamek, however the lack of any other distinction does suggest that it isn't Kamek. If it was him he'd probably appear somewhere else in the game and have a different outfit.--Kamek101 12:49, 6 December 2007 (EST)
 * Very true. I wonder if he's even still with the Koopa Troop, since his only appearances in the modern time period of the games have been in spin-offs where he wasn't alligned with anyone.  Oh, and then there's Psycho Kamek... who I'm still not convinced isn't our good friend Kamek.  20:03, 3 December 2007 (EST)

He is still with the koopa troop. Present day Kamek went back in time with Bowser in YIDS and actually helped Bowser in M.Party DS, delivering his invites and fighting the heroes as the boss protecting the way to Bowser's board. And he was in Super Princess Peach. Psycho Kamek is too different to be Kamek, in appearance and attitude.
 * Kamek is getting on in years, ya know. He might've gotten senile, and might've even forgot about his past when he became Psycho Kamek. =P Leave it to old people to do that. =|
 * Plus Psycho Kamek's continued attempts to hypnotize himself probably didn't help matters. -- Sir Grodus 07:52, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Maybe Psycho Kamek was a phase that Kamek went through when he left the Koopa Troop for a bit, when Bowser stole the title of Game King in M.Party Advance. Either way, Psycho Kamek probably won't appear again and regular Kamek seems to be form we're stuck with now. Still, it's good to see him returning as fairly regular.
 * Oops. Just so you know, I only have one of the games you mentioned (YIDS) and am only on world 3, so you'll have to excuse me.  I'm not sure why Psycho Kamek is so much different in personality... he still seemed pretty edgy to me.  My philosophy with the Wiki has always been to weave threads together even when they don't exactly fit, such as with Psycho Kamek or Mario and Luigi's Parents, rather than assume that there are two characters, places, etc.  19:49, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Yikes! Sorry about the YIDS spoiler!--Kamek101 12:49, 6 December 2007 (EST)
 * I didn't read all of the spoiler and am actively forgetting the part I did read as we speak, so don't worry. Hey, by the way, who are you?  We need to get your posts signed.  16:53, 5 December 2007

(EST)

I'm Kamek101 and I have only just figured out how to sign a post!XD I read this article a lot and decided to add to it myself, so I signed up. --Kamek101 12:46, 6 December 2007 (EST)
 * Nice to meet you! It's always great to have another knowedgable user here!  23:34, 6 December 2007 (EST)

And it's nice to meet you and the others too! :)--Kamek101 11:42, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Fang?
Since when is Kamek's nickname Fang? --Dann Woolf 08:54, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * The official guidebook for SMW2: YI. -- Sir Grodus 16:42, 19 January 2008 (EST)

Mario party DS
Shouldn't the bit about his appearance in Mario Party DS be expanded? It was a pretty major appearance for Kamek, so I think it should be metioned in his actual list of appearances and explain his role and fighting techniques. If everyone agrees, I'll change it. If not, I'll leave it be.--Kamek101 15:04, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * Of course it should be expanded! If anything is in need of expansion, go ahead and do it!

Done! :) Put in a few more sections too, but they probaly may need a little more editing.--Kamek101 15:15, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Mouth
I always thought that the way people could tell Kamek from Magikoopa's was because of his mouth. In YI Kamek has a very wide mouth whenever he talks, a trait that (too my knowledge) is not shared by other magikoopas. Any thoughts? - Ultimatetoad

"In some media, Kamek is said to be Kammy's son, nephew and even brother." What media is that? The two were never in a game together. This sounds like baseless fan speculation to me. 10:52, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * It sounds like speculation to me, too. Put a cite tag on there or remove it all together.  People need to learn to sight particular sources AT LEAST.  To generically say, "in some ___" isn't enough information.  11:39, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * Oh... how do you put I cite tag on? I never learned.
 * Write: just after the offending statement.  22:13, 30 November 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks. I decided it would be better to just take away the statement, though so that's what I did.
 * I've only ever enountered Kamek-Kammy stuff in fanfictions (Kamek as Kammy's son, brother and love interest, but not nephew). So yeah, removing it was a good call. - 21:01, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Super Princess Peach
I suppose someone knows his fate after being defeated by Peach? Some of us (myself included) have never played the game, and if anyone knows what happens to Kamek (ie: Is destroyed, or retreats) after his defeat, can they plz put it on here? I know some guy on a forum seems to recall him dying, probably in an explosion, but I need to confirm this, since he says he hasn't played it in about 3 years. Ghostkaiba297 00:22, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
 * Petey Piranha also "explodes", and not just in Super Princess Peach, yet he still appears in current games. The same goes for many other bosses. That a creature disappears in some way doesn't mean that it has to be "dead" in the Mario universe. --Grandy02 06:32, 2 May 2009 (EDT)

Same with bowser, he explodes in a black hole, thrice(three times)!

Koopa Troop Retirement
Since when did Kamek leave the Koopa Troop for a certain ammount of time?

Super Prima Galaxy
We take information from guidebooks considered as official (obviously, as long as it is the official guide book). When Nintendo Power changed management, they stopped making the official game guides, which is now the job of Prima. However, we don't consider any information in Prima game guides released before they became official as canon. However, Super Mario Galaxy came out after Prima took over. In their guide (premiere edition), they specifically mention (quote [pg 5]) "But Bowser was not fast enough - Mario reached the castle before the starship dropped from the sky. Determined to stand between Princess Peach and Bowser, Mario holds on dearly as the castle is hoisted into outer space. However, Bowser's minion, Kamek the Magikoopa, spots the stowaway. The wizard flies down to the castle and casts a powerful spell, shattering the stone beneath Mario's feet. Mario, knocked unconscious by the blast, floats out into space with the debris as the castle and Princess Peach vanish into the cosmos. Thus, it has been officially stated that the Magikoopa was Kamek, so should we include that in History rather then Possible Appearances?
 * The Galaxy trading cards, which have the Nintendo seal on them, also say it's him. I'm gonna go ahead and change it. CrossEyed7 23:58, 18 November 2009 (EST)
 * Here's what Kamek's card says, btw: "Bowser's evil minion, Kamek, is a powerful wizard who will do anything to please his master. After Bowser hoisted Peach's entire castle out of the ground in a massive laser attack, Mario clung to the castle walls trying to save her. Kamek saw this and cast a spell on Mario that sent him floating out into the universe." CrossEyed7 00:29, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Sticker book (CANON?)
ALso In the Super Mario Galaxy Sticker book, The magikoopa who blasted Mario, was named Kamek.

Bowser's Inside Story
In the beginning of BiS, there is a Magikoopa who follows Bowser and gives him advice. He is also seen taking care of Bowser at the end of the game. The Magikoopa is probably Kamek, so should that be included in the article?--Tutuboy95 20:23, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

NSBM Wii
According to this:
 * http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9006374&publicUserId=5379721

Kamek makes a return. I added this information to the article already, but I figured I should have probably mentioned it in the talk page, too. - Smashgoom202 10:43, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

wheres kamek's new super mario bros.wii artwork

 * There is none...--

However that's the first image on his article, his NSMBW artwork. Where does it come from?

any one knows what would kamek do to the babys in yoshi's island and yoshi' island ds
o
 * Probably kill them to prevent them from defeating Bowser...--

how do you pronounce kamek's name?
can someone please tell me --Raushad 14:30, 12 January 2010 (EST)
 * Probably depends on the language and the person you're asking. I pronouce it somewhat like "KAH-meck", which is similar to what the Japanese pronunciation should be. I don't know if his name was ever actually said in any official source, maybe someone else knows more about this.--vellidragon 14:49, 12 January 2010 (EST)
 * Kamek never appeared in a medium with voice acting, so I guess there is no official word. - 15:11, 12 January 2010 (EST)
 * "KAY-meck"

since when was kamek shown to manipulate objects with his mind and to brainwash people?
--Raushad 18:41, 12 January 2010 (EST)

is kamek really bowser's adoptive father
--Raushad 18:46, 12 January 2010 (EST)

kamek is ot much different than other Magikoopa's.Kamek uses not many different attacks.Can anyone tell me another game where he appeared?-Club Penguin-

NSMBW pic?
Where in the Mushroom World did someone find that artwork for Kamek? I haven't seen it in any guides or the game itself!

Kamek king?
Since Baby Bowser is a prince does that mean Kamek was king since he seemed to have command of the army
 * I think Kamek was a regent (he served until Baby Bowser was old enough to rule). 18:48, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I really don't know. Mushroom Kingdom is ruled by a princess currently with no kings. It's probably the same for Bowser
 * How can she rule the kingdom when she's rarely ever there? I actually think Toadsworth runs the kingdom, and Peach is a figurehead from whom the Toads take orders. 18:51, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Who knows how much margin is between Bowser's kidnappings, though.
 * Sure, but someone has to be running things whenever she's holed up in Bowser's castle or in the custody of some other villain.

But there are kings theres King Fret from Jewelry Land theres the King and Queen of Nimbus Land and don't forget the Mushroom King appears in a number of non-game media
 * I don't count non-game adaptions and the Mushroom King never existed outside of non-media.

He's mentioned in the Super Mario Bros. Manuel and what about the official Nintendo things that he appears in all im saying is that there are Kings and Queens in the Mushroom World
 * No one's debating the authenticity of the Mushroom King as a Mario series character, but he has no influence in the kingdom's affairs (and neither do King Fret or the Nimbus Land monarchs) because he is not in any video game. As it stands, Peach is the only person who has any control over the Mushroom Kingdom (except when she's absent).

Two things A: i like how were having this conversation on the Kamek page. And B: It could be possible that he is to busy working to play let's say Tennis

And i wasn't implying that the others have any influence in the Mushroom Kingdom i was just stating that there are Kings and Queens
 * Why are you guys discussing this here? Bring it to the forums. --Reversinator 19:11, 9 April 2011 (EDT)

I was just asking if Kamek could be considerd a King Im not really sure how this Conversation started

Super Mario-Kun
I've read some of super Mario-kun ( comic books only available in japan) well, the translated version and they have kamek in some of them. I'm not mistaken, Bowser even says that it's kamek.
 * Are you sure? The Japanese name for the Magikoopas is Kamekku, so there is a chance that he is talking to a random Magikoopa, at least for some issues.

Jazama 18:56, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Well I read it translated in english and they said Kamek. But it is possible that it was poorly translated and I guess it could just be a magikoopa.

Mario Party 9
In the US version, he's simply called Magikoopa. In the European version, he's called Kamek, but Kamek is the name of the entire species in Japan. I think it needs to mentioned that it's ambiguous whether he's intended to be Kamek or not. --A Pimp Named Slickback 10:58, 3 March 2012 (EST)
 * Nope since it came out in Europe first that means that we use the info from the European game which calls him Kamek
 * That's a flimsy justification. Really, since it is just the single Magikoopa, and he directly takes orders from Bowser, it's really noticeable that he is the Kamek we all know.

NSMBWii
How do we know that's Kamek? He's called Magikoopa in the trading cards and guide...

Is Kamek really in NSMBW and NSMBU?
I just want to make sure because the Prima guides of both games as well as the NSMBW Trading cards call him Magikoopa. It may be a typo but then why would they constantly keep repeating that mistake, especially when Paper Mario Sticker Star called him Kamek? Smasher345


 * Kamek/Magikoopa is basically the same case as Toad/Toad and Yoshi/Yoshi, but with an added layer of confusion because American sources usually localize Kamek as Kamek, but not always. In the cases where Kamek is called Magikoopa, I think common sense has to be used as to whether it is the character or a generic member of the species, same as with Toad(s) and Yoshi(s). As far as I'm aware, the Magikoopa character in New Super Mario Bros. Wii/U does the whole "pop up during a boss fight and make the boss huge or do some other magical change" shtick that's only been associated with Kamek. -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 18:30, 4 December 2012 (EST)

He has always been called Kamek in Europe. And the Magikoopa-Kamek eror happens since their japaneese versions are similar. But Kamke surely appeared in NSMBW/U instead of other magikoopas. We can see that from the fact that we've never seen a magikoopa on his broom in main series instead of him. He also has a singular and major role, thats why... -- 18:51, 4 December 2012 (EST)

Oh alright, so it surely is Kamek, just that America makes those tranlations errors of his name. Just wanted to make sure, thanks for the info. Smasher345

Wow I just noticed this now, but the European website of NSMBU confirms that the character is indeed Kamek. I don't even know how I missed that but I probably should have figured that the character was Kamek anyway due to the fact that he is the only Magikoopa to display the ability to alter an enemy or the environment with his magic. Smasher345 20:13, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Kamek in Super Princess Peach
Are we sure that is Kamek? I mean first of all, this Magikoopa is called Giant Kamek and also has a Japanese name, Dekamekku, which is not Kamek's name in Japan. Second, Giant Kamek's appearance is very different from Kamek's, which would mean its a different Magikoopa. Lastly, the glossary of SPP says "A Kamek made huge by magic", which would mean that it was intended to be a generic Magikoopa that became giant, but possibly might have gone through the same translation error as Psycho Kamek due to Magikoopas being called Kameks in Japan. As far as I know, we treated Psycho Kamek as a different character from Kamek and he got his own article despite the name. We shouldn't assume that the character is Kamek just because of the name, especially with what we did with Psycho Kamek so I don't see why we wouldn't do the same with Giant Kamek, especially with the reasons I stated above. - Smasher345 14:31, 20 January 2013 (EST)
 * I agree with this comment. Besides, if they wanted to show that this was Kamek, they would just drop the "Giant" title.  The article is probably trying to find some shred of evidence that Giant Kamek = the Kamek we know and love by going along the lines of "Oh he has different robes," or "Oh he's gaurding Luigi."  If the robes are an indication, then explain the other colored Magikoopas in Paper Mario, or for that matter (gender differences aside), Kammy and Kamella?  All of them have robes different than the run of the mill Magikoopa and we treat them differently than Kamek, so why should this boss get it?  And if it was Kamek gaurding Luigi, then how come the game calls him "Green Man?"  If he was Kamek, he should have remembered that it was Luigi he was gaurding.--Tailikku1 (talk) 22:50, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

Well, you say "A Kamek made huge by magic" means that he is a generic Magikoopa, due to the indefinite article "a" being placed before his name. Well, actually, no. When you say, "A drunken Thomas", for example, you almost always refer to Thomas being drunk, not some random Thomas. Simply put, in this context, it refers to the same Kamek made huge by magic. But yes, I do agree that Psycho Kamek was actually a Magikoopa (it was mistranslated). Similarly, the Magikoopa in SMRPG was most likely intended to be the true Kamek, whose name was also mistranslated.

"Kamek" is just a translation goof made part of canon in west
We all know that Kamek first appeared in Yoshi's Island, but I have problem with that game: some of the translated enemy names. "Flopsy Fish" for Cheep Cheep? "Hootie the Blue Fish" for a Piranha Plant species? "Needlenose" for what I presume to be a plain Pokey head? All those weird names for Ukiki subspecies? That's pretty questionable to me, and that's why I also question Kamek's "origin". Was he really intended to appear as his own separate character from Magikoopas, or did the localizers decide to have some creative liberty or just plain mess up? Considering the weird enemy names in YI I think it's one of the last two.

Nevertheless, "Kamek" became common knowledge among the western Mario base, but it isn't perfectly covered. Like in Super Princess Peach, where there's "a Kamek made huge by magic" as a boss. Yeah, that game's translation work is questionable too, but it was also pretty literal in some sense (see Petey Piranha). Then some games have either "Magikoopa" or "Kamek" used as a name depending on translation of different versions. And now in the latest Smash Bros. games, Kamek isn't treated any different from generic Magikoopas. Even his Wii U trophy says he debuted in Super Mario World. May seem like an error, but this game is from Japan, where "Kamek" is the only name for these enemies. And I think it's likely that's how the Japanese fans treat Kamek: no different from generic Magikoopas, because Kamek is a generic Magikoopa, and nothing more.

I mean, think about it. A game that got established enemy names wrong among other things is a pretty loose foundation for this "Kamek" being his own individual. Even if only one Magikoopa appeared, what proof is there that he is the same as the one appearing in earlier games in Japanese versions? Yet Nintendo of America ran with that idea and fans liked it, but now the inconsistent material has left behind so many questions that they can't be handwaved with "I think this Magikoopa is Kamek himself, and the developers just made a mistake" or "These other guys say he's Kamek, so it has to be him". SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:03, 26 February 2015 (EST)


 * It should be noted that NoE now pretty much universally refers to all Magikoopas as Kamek(s), most notably even in Super Mario 3D World and Captain Toad. Kamek is, in many ways, like Toad. Toad is both a character and a species at once, he is neither one or the other. The Kamek in Yoshi's Island is meant to be one, singular Kamek, but in other games, there are numerous Kameks. Much like Toad in SMB2 is one singular Toad, but there are many Toads. Yoshi is another good example.


 * Personally I'm not sure any of these pages need to make a distinction between the "species" and "individual" because the games themselves don't really do this. Toad is both a character but in the very first game he appeared in, there were multiple Toads, all identical. He is no less a character simply by being plural. I think it's important to recognize the "stage play" idea that Miyamoto himself suggested, wherein each character simply plays a role that suits the game. So while Kamek in Yoshi's Island is playing the role of a singular Kamek, he previously appeared as multiple Kamek's in Super Mario World. Basically, it all depends on the game, but yes, it's a translation goof that doesn't even exist across all the western canon anymore, it's simply America only now. The correct name is Kamek, rather than Magikoopa. Fizzle (talk) 13:13, 15 May 2015 (EDT)

Kamek refer itself as "SHE" in Japanese M&L DT

 * https://youtu.be/TJSkTb2tduI?t=11m21s
 * あたし(atashi),female personal pronoun... can we suppose Kamek in Japanese M&L DT is a she?

Nice find! Although I don't think this has effect on Kamek's gender, but I've read that his speech style a bit feminine in the Japanese version of Dream Team. Now maybe we could compare this to his dialogue in other Japanese Mario games. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:03, 1 August 2015 (EDT)
 * Well he was recently disguised as Peach so it probably stuck to him during his schtick disguised as the Princess. Or he's gay...--Tailikku1 (talk) 22:52, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

Split Giant Kamek from Kamek
The names are different in English and Japanese, Giant Kamek doesn't even look like Kamek, and the only evidence that they're the same is the description calling it "a Kamek made huge by magic", which is likely just a bad translation considering the Japanese names of Kamek and regular Magikoopas being exactly the same.

Proposer: Deadline: October 11, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per Niiue. Different robes, size and role. In the UK, all Magikoopas are referred to as Kamek, so it is very unlikely that these two are the same.
 * 3) Per all. This is in a sense a "big" variant of Kamek/Magikoopa.
 * 4) Support. And just in case someone brings up "A drunken Thomas" argument, well, that's not really strong since you're making assumptions about the language here, and it's really bordering on speculation with this little evidence. This should be split with the little evidence we have for keeping them merged and with the good amount of differences the two have.
 * 5) I was under the impression this was split a long time ago. Huh, guess I was wrong. Per.
 * 6)  Per proposal.
 * 7)  Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Yeah per all. It's basically a bigger Magikoopa (or Kamek himself under a transformation) and we have similar articles.
 * 10) – Per all.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all, but may i ask why all your split or merge proposals are based on "The Japanese names are different/the same"?
 * 13) Per all
 * 14) &mdash; Per proposal.

Comments
Roy Koopa: "but may i ask why all your split or merge proposals are based on 'The Japanese names are different/the same'?"

According to Niiue, this is apparently because "it's closer to to source" or "it's the creator's intent". I need to caution that these kinds of arguments should be used to supplement justifying a merge or a split rather than serve the foundation of these arguments, given the shaky nomenclature. Proposals containing arguments that have relied solely on Japanese names such as Cheep Chomp and Wilt Shroom generally fail. 00:21, 3 October 2015 (EDT)
 * You're going for the "A drunken Thomas" argument. The a in the Thomas example refers to it being Thomas, while the a in this case refers to just a nondescript Magikoopa.--Tailikku1 (talk) 08:59, 4 October 2015 (EDT)
 * I don't understand your line of thought. Where did I resort to that? 17:21, 5 October 2015 (EDT)

Having just figured out what "drunken Thomas" means, the case is different for the two. "A Kamek made huge by magic" puts his state of being at the end, which would be the same as "a Thomas who is drunk". In that case, the sentence fragment would be referring to any random Thomas.

"Kamek, as he appears in Mario Party: Star Rush."
...No? That's an image of a generic Magikoopa from Super Mario 3D World, which is what's on both the image description and the Magikoopa page. If the artwork has been reused for both 3D World and Star Rush, there isn't a note of that on this page. 14:48, 11 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, the artwork is used on the Japanese website alongside Petey Piranha's, and such. So I suspect it's been reused as Kamek's profile art for this game. MarioComix (talk) 20:45, 11 July 2017 (EDT)

Age
This page continuously asserts that he's "very old." However, was there anything in any SMW2 materials indicating he was "old" then? Or is that just an assumption? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:20, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Most likely an assupmtion, based on the assumption that it's that specific Kamek who keeps appearing recurringly. SmokedChili (talk) 07:43, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * It can be assumed relatively safely that the ones in the Yoshi games are all the same one, and can be assumed that the one in the later New Super Mario Bros. games is the same as the ones in that game, and the one in the Mario & Luigi games in turn being the same as the one in those, and the later Paper Mario ones due to the counterpart system in Paper Jam. The amount of Magikoopas that make up Bowser's forces seems to consistently be "whatever is the most convenient for the designers at that time." Anyways, there doesn't seem to be anything in SMW2 itself to designate him as being "old," so for all we know he was intended to just be some easily-flustered one-trick pony who knows magic, and not some wise old sorcerer. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:51, 5 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Well as we know from SMW2, Kamek is much older than Bowser and the Mario Bros., so I'd assume he's very old. -- 15:30, 11 November 2018 (EST)
 * We know he's older. We don't know how much older. For all we know, he's fairly young then, and putting adult Mario and Bowser at ~25-35, for all we know, he's just middle-aged. My point is, the whole "very old" thing seems to be speculation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:32, 11 November 2018 (EST)

"Later shown in Paper Jam this could be possible"?
Sorry for the section title but I didn't know how to summarize. The section for Paper Mario: Sticker Star mentions that this game could be Kamek's first meeting with Mario, and I get it: when they first meet Kamek says "we've only just met", supporting this theory (although if that's the case it's not clear how could he instantly recognize Mario). The part I don't get is the section then going on with "it is later shown in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam that this could be possible." How? What does that mean? In Paper Jam Kamek and Paper Kamek show up and block the heroes' path with their papercraft, how does anything in that game confirm that the one in Sticker Star is Paper Kamek's first meeting with Paper Mario? And if Paper Jam indeed confirms that detail from Sticker Star, then shouldn't it count as a reference that needs to be mentioned in the respective game's "References in later games" and "References to other games" sections?--Kombatgod (talk) 03:45, July 4, 2020 (EDT)

I've actually never understood this either, I'm thinking of removing that part but wanted to see what others thought first.

Kamek's gender in Japanese
In Partners in Time, Kamek is referred to as「ばあさん」, or "old woman", by Kylie Koopa right before Kamek is encountered (the corresponding English line simply refers to Kamek as "an evil-looking Magikoopa"). But in Color Splash, Kamek is called「おっさん」, or "middle-aged man", by Huey before he and Mario battle Kamek (the corresponding English line in this case using "old man"). So it seems that Kamek's gender is more explicitly inconsistent in Japanese, compared to in English where Kamek is always male or of ambiguous gender. --PaperSplash (talk) 17:14, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
 * I guess we can note it, but what's the context of Kylie calling him an old woman? Is it an insult or something out of ignorance? 17:40, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's also the game where Kamek is shown as Bowser Jr.'s caretaker, and even has an apron in his sprite. So perhaps the writers meant it as a joke (that Kamek would appear like a grandma, but isn't actually one). MarioComix (talk) 18:27, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yes, it was likely more a joke about his "nanny"-like role and appearance in that game than anything. Given the fact that the babies are not only there, but important to the plot, that being a different Magikoopa from the one in SMW2 seems highly unlikely. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:53, October 14, 2020 (EDT)
 * I did consider the fact that it could be out of ignorance, but at least from what I found searching on Twitter and Niconico, most Japanese fans seem to have taken that comment at face value. Anyway, I'll add it to the article but I won't make any conclusions one way or another. --PaperSplash (talk) 22:58, October 20, 2020 (EDT)

Secret Junior weakness?
So I was playing some Bowser Jr's Journey, and I decided to replay the Roy duel with Kamek as my first officer. I did a Shy Guy swarm and aimed them all at Kamek just for fun. Here's the catch: every time a cannonball hit Kamek, a blue CRITICAL showed up, which I'm pretty sure means that a critical was scored on an ally (as in, one of your troopers). You never fight Kamek, so we would never know this, but he's a Magikoopa, so it makes sense. I was just wondering if we should note that. Broque 10:22, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * This was one thing I also noticed when playing this game a while ago, but yes I think this is worth mentioning. 10:25, July 19, 2021 (EDT)

biological fatherhood
Is it possible that Kamek could be Bowser's biological father rather than his adoptive father? IE the English response he has to Mallow's Psychopath attack in Seven Stars is about a genetic paternal connection?

We've only ever seen Bowser's mom (apparently still alive?) in Time Machine Deluxe, so perhaps "Prince Bowser" actually inherited his royal rank from his mother and Kamek sired him at her request?

This would explain where Bowser got his magic since we don't know Bowser's mom to have magical abilities.

Is there any text in the games where they explicitly deny the idea of them being related or that he merely raised/adopted Bowser? ty (talk) 19:06, February 16, 2022 (EST)
 * That is nothing but speculation so none of that is going in the article. 19:17, February 16, 2022 (EST)

SMRPG redux
To quote an edit summary I made: "Most indications other than the thought (itself merely an Easter Egg to what in the Language-of-Origin is treated as a generic Magikoopa) seem to paint this as a SquareWare "original generation" character, like Jagger and the Goomba alongside him, hence being effectively replaced by Kammy Koopa for a while until Nintendo seemed to have realized the SMW2 one was treated as a distinct character in the west." I suppose what mainly bothers me here is treating what amounts to an Easter Egg at face value (which I may add, wasn't even translated correctly), but aside from that, the fact that "Kamezard" was never revisited and was for a while replaced with another suspiciously similar stand-in indicates to me that the SMRPG Magikoopa wasn't actually intended as the SMW2 one. The fact that unused setups indicate it was originally implemented as a standard enemy before being retooled as a boss supports this. (Also, the aforementioned Easter Egg can be interpreted differently; he could have just as easily been an ex-Toady.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:47, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
 * Regardless of which language used (original Japanese or English localization), or which baby it's referencing, I believe it's clear this was supposed to be the Kamek character from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. The character of Kamek not existing in Japan is also a misconception. Just because it could be an "Easter egg" doesn't mean it can be simply disregarded. It's just as much part of the story and world as any other Psychopath dialogue. 06:18, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
 * Makes more sense to me that this is meant to be Kamek than not. I don't find any of the arguments to the contrary that convincing, especially not the alternative interpretation thing - Kamek is the only Magikoopa in SMW2, and there's no indication that Toadies become Magikoopas, so no, I don't think you can "just as easily" interpret the SMRPG Magikoopa as being a former Toady. -- 12:54, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
 * One thing I want to point out is that due to the hootenanny about Square owning the original intellectual properties in the game, it is likely Kamezard is therefore legally distinct from Kamek/Magikoopa. And Sophie, where are you getting the argument about the character not existing being a misconception? As far as Nintendo is concerned, the amount of "standard" Magikoopas/Kameks can fluctuate between one and however many they need, just like Koopa Kid in the old Mario Party games, and for Kamekku that continues to this day. Also, there is no real difference between pre-SMW2 singular Magikoopas (Safari, Kun, etc) and SMW2-onward ones, but I digress. In the context of SMRPG, Kamek/"Merlin" is the species and Kamezard/"Magikoopa" is a leader that was originally meant to be a stronger-recolor enemy. And since it was originally implemented as a standard enemy that could be found in multiple random encounters before being changed to a boss, would you say that all of those developmental-build encounters would be against the "character" Kamek if they all had the thought? Considering how many abandoned enemies do have thoughts, I don't think those were late additions. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, September 21, 2022 (EDT)
 * I shared some thoughts a while ago here, but I'll add to the new bits. One problem with the idea that Kamezard/Magikoopa was originally meant to be a stronger recolor of Kamek/Merlin is that, in the final game at least, Kamek/Merlin is the 97th monster and Kamezard/Magikoopa is the 33rd monster. Generally speaking, base enemies appear to be programmed earlier than their stronger variants (exceptions being Shy Guy [90] & Shy Ranger [24] and Shyster [158] & Springer [120], which may mean a bit of design/name swapping happened and may possibly extend to the Magikoopas). Also generally, bosses appear toward the end of the internal enemy order (some exceptions being Gunyolk [51] and Boomer [52]). There are signs that the Magikoopas' development isn't as straightforward as it seems at first glance. Additionally, I wouldn't really define Psychopath thoughts as "s" - while a fair number of them are clearly the developers having fun, a good many of them are legit battle strategy hints, and Psychopath's Timed Hit use is mentioned in its description. In all honesty though, I think Occam's razor applies; the Kamek and Magikoopa articles are the equivalent of character and species identifier articles ala Toad or Yoshi, and the same is true here. As for the legally distinct part, that didn't stop certain Paper Mario characters from being Shamans Chancellor is worth revisiting one more time in light of Chestnut King . LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:04, September 22, 2022 (EDT)
 * I suppose the main thing about the "child" line is that, to take it as a defining identity statement, you have to assume a very tight-knit between-game continuity, which even at the time it was clear Mario didn't have (much like Final Fantasy!); that also seems to be the reason the idea that "Kamek and Magikoopa are different" has become one of the wiki's most entrenched misconceptions. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:36, September 22, 2022 (EDT)
 * To be fair, I wouldn't mind an overhaul in how the wiki defines a "character" of a species - in fact, I thought this might've worked as a decent first step to do something about that at the time, but it failed. You're right, though - the current impression the character articles give is that these are definitely the same recurring characters and not just a general "let's put x in character role here" that they obviously are most of the time. It's why Toad has a possible appearances section. Maybe another approach would be to find a way to reduce or split off the character articles per more significant appearances/roles? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:55, September 22, 2022 (EDT)
 * One thing is for sure though: I would strongly oppose merging the Magikoopa and Kamek articles entirely. There is far more to say about the character that wouldn't fit well on the species page, and Kamek's roles mainly in RPGs and Yoshi games are large enough for it to be a seperate article. 14:10, September 22, 2022 (EDT)
 * I agree. This “Magikoopa” seems to be an entirely different entity. I think they should be separated.

I'll throw this out here too, Japanese fans themselves have displayed a wide number of interpretations, ranging from "not gonna bring it up, but quote the thought anyway" to "just a development gag, don't take it at face value" to "probably the same person, but still an officially distinct character" (ie Donkey Kong classic and Cranky Kong or Smash's Mario and Dr. Mario) to "eh, maybe." Any of these are different from how we have it, which I find less than ideal. (Searching カメザード brings up almost exclusively SMRPG results.) Also, relating to the above discussion, while they do seem to often list the "aide" as a character, they have a hard time reconciling the PiT Kamek and others due to supposed gender inconsistencies; they seem to generally cover all instances of "Kamekku," single or multiple, into one page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:05, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

Include pre-SMW2 singular appearances on this page
This page currently lists every singular appearance of generic Magikoopas as being the same entity... but only the ones from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island onwards. The reason for this is the outdated Anglocentric perception that SMW2 "invented" Kamek, when in reality he was, is, and always will be just a singular depiction of a generic Magikoopa, akin to how Toad and Yoshi are depicted, and this appearance merely codified several traits of the subject. There is no reason for the pre-SMW2 ones to not be on here, again similar to how Toad and Yoshi are handled.

blue
 * Super Mario-kun (SMW arc) - A singular Magikoopa is a major antagonist, with a role similar to later games, and if I recall correctly, Manga Mania just goes ahead and calls him Kamek.
 * Yoshi's Safari - A single Magikoopa is a late-game boss, and even makes himself gigantic, much like they'd be known to do with other creatures.

red
 * Super Mario World TV - "That's Wizenheimer! WIZenheimer!" While generally only one Koopa Wizard is seen at a time, they are still clearly depicted as being more than one, and the most important one had an actually-distinct name.
 * Nintendo Adventure Books - While there is a single Magikoopa character in it, he is notably distinct for being portrayed as Bowser's distant cousin. Maybe he could get his own article? I don't know.

green
 * Super Mario Adventures - There are actually two Magikoopas in this comic, both high-ranking. One is an immediate aide to Bowser and as such virtually indistinguishable from the current content of this page. The other is a distinct-looking old one who hypnotizes the princess. This proposal may add the former; the latter could potentially get his own article later since he has an actual important role and distinct appearance.

And while I have made it clear I'd personally prefer to merge them outright, regardless of where that pipe dream goes this proposal is something that needs done.

Proposer: Deadline: June 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support, including Super Mario Adventures

 * 1) - Daring choice.
 * 2) - To be frank, I have no idea why this is particularly controversial or why it hasn't been done way sooner (and for the record, I personally wouldn't want to go all the way with Kamek and Magikoopa as of now, unless some tectonic shift of new info comes to light). I've always been confused why Yoshi's Safari is not counted as a technical appearance of the character Kamek, as had it only released after Yoshi's Island, there's no doubt in my mind which article it would be in; you can alter absolutely nothing about this appearance except for the arbitrary detail that had if it just released a bit later then it would clearly be in the other article. I do want to remind the opposition that there was a time where the Toad character article listed Super Mario Bros.: Peach-hime Kyūshutsu Dai Sakusen! as the debut appearance, predating the 'official' establishment of Super Mario Bros. 2 (which isn't truly Nintendo-established so much as perceptions/constructs; Nintendo is more likely to claim that Luigi debuted in the arcade Mario Bros. than draw the line on Kamek or Toad, which has been on fans to decide), and we didn't really have an issue with that except upon closer inspection it was perhaps a bit of a stretch that the first speaking Toad specifically meant that Toad was their name and rather was likelier merely calling itself a Toad. I also don't think the opposition quite understands that, for all intents and purposes, the Kamek article is the equivalent to a generic character article and the Magikoopa article is the equivalent to a generic species article, with the main difference boiling down to the most commonly used English names/context for each. Additionally, we list one-time throwaway subjects like Ice Flower and big Monty Mole as first appearing in Super Mario-kun, which is again what this proposal would aim to do. So yes, big support. If everything has to hinge on the introduction of the name "Kamek" in the West...just use the name "Magikoopa" for earlier appearances, problem solved (maybe excepting manga due to its nature).

Support, not including Super Mario Adventures

 * 1) - Cautious choice.

Oppose

 * 1) I still think it's clear that SMW2 was the game that established the Kamek character, and the whole thing in general is one case where localization is the primary thing that distinguishes Kamek from the Magikoopa species and should absoloutely not be disregarded completely.
 * 2) I feel like Kamek's case is similar to Toad in which his species and character tends to be inconsistent. If this was the case regarding Birdo and Boom Boom, I think this would be more convincing. Beyond that, this proposal doesn't really try to prove that Kamek has always been there in the beginning. I remember in one of the Smash games where it's said that his first appearance was Super Mario World but they do that for Toad with Super Mario Bros. as well. There's also the regular Lakitu enemies and a character.
 * 3) We’ve gone through this whole rigmarole before. Kamek is obviously not an invention of localisation, and the games make it clear there is a specific recurring Magikoopa character who originated in Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island, just like Toad (character) and Yoshi (character). This is even acknowledged in Japanese Magikoopa descriptions, like the one in Mario Superstar Baseball. At most I could see the Magikoopa in Yoshi’s Safari being mentioned as a “maybe this is Kamek retroactively”, similarly to how Toad’s page mentions the possibility of him being one of the Mushroom Retainers in Super Mario Bros., but nothing more than that.
 * 4) Seeing as "Anglocentric perception" is the whole reason these articles are split in the first place, I don't understand your argument here, and to me it sounds a lot like fan speculation. I could maybe see a case for merging these outright (hesitant because of the blatant distinction in official non-Japanese material which I don't think should be disregarded just for being less "official", but maybe), but I think this weird merging of only some random Magikoopa appearances is arbitrary, speculative, and unhelpful. This potential merge should really be all or nothing rather than only weird half-merges like this. And if the idea behind this is some "retroactive appearance" thing, see how we treat Cranky Kong.
 * 5) - Per Wikiboy10; Nowadays, Nintendo tends to play a lot less loosey-goosey with Kamek, kinda like how they treat Toad. Unless they decide one of these pre-Kamek appearances retroactively counts as one of Kamek's appearances, we should probably just stick to what Nintendo asserts as Kamek's debut (SMW2:YI). In fact, to cycle back on that Toad point, we literally already do exactly that with Toad (SMB2 is his debut, not SMB1 despite a generic crew of toads appearing in that game), and nobody seems to bat an eye since that's clearly referring to Toad (the character) and not Toad (the species), and the latter does even attribute SMB1 as the species debut.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all. There is no proper sources so far that Nintendo just took one, some, or if any of the other different high-ranking Magikoopa characters that notably work more closely to Bowser (whether they are named or not) in the corresponding Mario media they appear in and I don't think Nintendo just used them as inspiration to make their own in-house interpretation of a notable high-ranking Magikoopa member to make Kamek for SMW2: Yoshi's Island. If anything it is more likely a coincidence that they made their own established high-ranking Magikoopa starting with SMW2: Yoshi's Island. I really doubt those notable Magikoopa characters in media are meant to be Kamek in the first place.
 * 10) "Neyah, Yoshi, How could you do such a thing" -kemik, Yoshi's New Island. ...I've made my point, per all.
 * 11) Per all. Nintendo has never said that the singular Magikoopa's appearances before Yoshi's Island are Kamek.
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
@Seandwalsh Oh? Tell me exactly what the JP Baseball description says, untranslated. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:17, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick My bad, I misremembered. It just clarifies that the Magikoopa playable in Baseball is Kamek in that instance, rather than a random Magikoopa. My point still stands though. Kamek is clearly an individual character in Japanese regardless, even if the localisation’s understanding of whether it’s him or not isn’t always spot-on (see: This instance, Mario Party Advance).
 * “カメック
 * カメそくのまほうつかい.
 * おつげによりベビィたちをさらおうとしたが
 * ヨッシーと ベビイマリオに
 * けいかくをくだかれた.
 * まほうのつえのちからで
 * いろいろな まほうを
 * つかうことができるため
 * やきゅうをするときにも
 * やくにたっている. ” Seandwalsh (talk)
 * Considering it says the same about the other colors and the localization opts to treat the playable ones in that game as the species and mention the SMW2 events in passing, that's more fuel for my point of them being interchangeable. More on that later. This proposal is about treating the early "Kun" Kamek as the "usual" Kamek, which we already do on certain pages (just not others). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:01, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * The bio is for the blue Magikoopa in the game specifically. The others don’t get one. They clearly are not interchangeable, and never will be. You would have to be completely ignorant to the context surrounding the character to believe otherwise. Seandwalsh (talk)
 * I'd like to clarify things a bit here but the bio isn't for a specific color, it's for the general species of playable characters (you will unlock the "blue" Magikoopa bio if you get an MVP with any color). They don't design the bios after the specific colors. 21:18, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * So are you saying the former Nintendo EAD is "completely ignorant" on their own creation? Because they sure as beans treat them interchangeably, as do the other various Nintendo subsidiaries and contractors. Pretty much the only times the "character" and "species" one appear together, said "character" is also suddenly the only blue one present. Not to mention SMW is commonly mentioned as the debut, including one of the recent Party games (don't remember which since I don't play those) where the SMW sprite was used to represent him rather than the SMW2 one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:43, May 30, 2023 (EDT)

@Hewer It's to be more consistent with how Yoshi and Toad's pages list all appearances of singular members if the species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:43, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * The obvious difference here being that the individual character's debut was after some of those appearances. 18:03, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * Yet these are treated as individual characters. With the same basic name and role. Just before where we have set the supposed debut. Also we have the Toad character after the species, so that's not really different. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:06, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * So your argument is that they share the same species and role and they're individual characters? According to the "Notable members" list for Magikoopas (and other species), that's not enough to merge. "The same basic name" is a weird point to bring up considering you could pretty much say that about all Magikoopas (hence me talking about how I'd rather support a full merge than this weird arbitrary half-merge in my vote). And Toad the character has been explicitly stated to have debuted in SMB2 (and SMB1 isn't much of an "individual" appearance of Toad seeing as it actually features a group of seven identical Toads). 18:17, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock: "Unless they decide one of these pre-Kamek appearances retroactively counts as one of Kamek's appearances [...]" The proposal states the following: "Super Mario-kun (SMW arc) - A singular Magikoopa is a major antagonist, with a role similar to later games, and if I recall correctly, Manga Mania just goes ahead and calls him Kamek." (That said, I don't have the book so I can't confirm this statement.) 17:56, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * Generic Magikoopas have been referred to as Kameks though (and vice versa), as explained in the Magikoopa article's intro paragraphs. 18:07, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

@MegaBowser64: Could you please change the comment of the vote so it doesn't include the quote template? It's breaking up the list, which would look very clumsy if someone else adds a vote, making it look something like this: Please either remove the quote altogether, or change it into something in-line like this: 03:21, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * 1) Item 1
 * 2) Item 2
 * 3) Item 3:
 * 4) Item...4?
 * 1) "Neyah, Yoshi, How could you do such a thing" —kemik, Yoshi's New Island.

We should also remember that Nintendo never officially said that those Magikoopas pre Yoshi's Island were Kamek. Plus, there's a Magikoopa by Bowser's side in Super Paper Mario's start. Should we treat that one as Kamek, too? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:07, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * The article does already point out the one in Super Paper Mario, see the Paper Mario series section. 09:19, May 30, 2023 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty Of course we do understand that Kamek's article is like a Magikoopa character article but we've given our thoughts on the situation and I'd rather you didn't start throwing assumptions at us about it, that's one reason I feel these debates start to get too out of hand a lot of the time and why I really can't stand getting dragged into it. 10:17, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * My point about the previous version of the Toad article falling in line with this by breaking the first appearance preconception still stands (and I think we went over that last bit). Let me put it another way: if Nintendo of Europe had their way and Kamek/Magikoopa kept the same name currently, where would that leave the character? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:30, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * I'm confused as to why you're putting so much stock in your Toad example when it's something we stopped doing. Arguments along the lines of "we're doing this on that page, so let's also do it on this page" don't work so well when we aren't doing it on that page anymore. Don't you think there was probably a reason why we stopped doing it? 14:04, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * I mean, I've already explained why - because it didn't turn out to fulfill the basic criteria of character/singular, not because it's "pre-x" needlessly. If no one had a problem with pre-SMB2 on the principle of it, I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to pre-SMW2. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:43, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * That Toad re-classification happened six years ago now, it's entirely possible and likely that people would have issues with it for more than just that reason if it actually was still here (I certainly would seeing as it's been explicitly stated that Toad the character debuted in SMB2, as I mentioned in an earlier comment). Your argument relies on a strange assumption that all of us agree or would agree with something that we stopped doing six years ago, which is definitely enough time for opinions to change (and indeed, there have been pretty big coverage changes since then - Smash comes to mind). 16:23, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * "...first showed off his strength in Super Mario Bros. 2, then proved to be an agile driver in Super Mario Kart." Um, that's just noting attributes. All it means is that if there was a pre-SMB2 appearance, it wouldn't be showing his physical prowess, which came about as a consequence of the DDP conversion. All it would have taken for Toad's first appearance to be pre-SMB2 is if he more explicitly stated, "My name is Toad/Kinopio," which I think some early subtitle misunderstood. (Also sidenoting that "Toad" has just been the name of the single character for a while before it eventually carried over to the species as a whole, like what had been attempted by Kamek.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:31, May 30, 2023 (EDT)

Personally speaking, listing Kamek the character as having appeared as a boss in Yoshi's Safari could be a bit presumptuous – the same game also has Chargin' Chuck as a boss, as well as a regular Koopa Troopa piloting a giant Koopa mech, plus a Hammer Bro, Boomerang Bro, Sledge Bro, Lakitu, and Fire Snake as minibosses. Had, out of all these enemies, Kamek alone been a boss, I would understand thinking this was an appearance of Kamek the character, but considering that the Chargin' Chuck and Koopa Troopa with mech are major bosses as well, it seems more likely that the game has promoted certain enemies to be bosses for the sake of variety. That said, I think it'd be fine if we had a Possible appearances section on the Kamek character page regarding not only Yoshi's Safari, but also Super Mario-kun and Super Mario Adventures. Unsure about the Nintendo Adventures books and Super Mario World TV show – maybe mention Wizenheimer and "Bowser's Magikoopa cousin" as similar characters prior to Kamek on the page? 13:41, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * Thing is, "promoting a certain enemy" is exactly what SMW2 Kamek is, with the same enemy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:48, May 30, 2023 (EDT)
 * To be fair, the Chargin' Chuck (the only other big boss mentioned there) might be a distinct entity. In other words, if this proposal passes and that article splits, all of the major Yoshi's Safari bosses will have character articles (save for Big Boo, which may have been a case for expanding the boss article but oh well). LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:43, May 30, 2023 (EDT)


 * I think a "possible appearances" would work because the French version of Super Mario-kun says the recurring Magikoopa in the early chapters is Kamek as well as that Magikoopa in Super Paper Mario's intro in all versions. That said, Bowser's Inside Story makes things a bit more complicated because the confirmation that the Magikoopa at the start of the game is Kamek didn't occur until Bowser Jr's Journey which was released years after the original game and in the original, he was basically just a regular Magikoopa that was hanging out with Bowser. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:03, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Another thing to remember is that the games and official media get wonky about if a Magikoopa is Kamek or not thanks to sharing the Japanese names. For instance, Prima's official strategy guide for Super Mario Galaxy and their trading cards say that that was Kamek who blasted off Mario at the start of Super Mario Galaxy but the Japanese version never said (plus there's the fact that "Kamek" never appeared again in the game), the Magikoopa being Kamek in Horror Land and Bowser's Inside Story were retcons introduced years after the original games were.