MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/19



Create Gallery Pages
CREATE PAGES 10-0

The merchandise pages have been in a mess for a while. I propose a change to the current system by merging together merchandise pages into gallery pages. The only merchandise not affected by this proposal are books, publications, and Mario themed games since there is a lot of information to be covered. The gallery system has worked on a few pages like Figurines and Toys. Of course, the galleries won't be exactly like those pages. The descriptions will be more neutral and organization will be by manufacturer or type.

Reasons why this change would benefit the wiki:


 * 1) Many stubs and short pages would be removed.
 * 2) Many dead-end pages would removed.
 * 3) Easier to read about multiple merchandise objects at once.
 * 4) More organization and easier for editors.
 * 5) Fan-made or fan-named products won't have separate articles.

The gallery pages to be created are as follows:


 * Clothing – Anything that is designed to be worn.
 * Food – Anything consumable or used in consumption, like Mario themed gummy worms or Mario themed plates.
 * Toys – Anything that can be interacted with, like yo-yo,r McDonald's promotional item, or plushiess.
 * Miscellaneous – Things that just don't fit anywhere else, like a Mario Neon Sign.

Things that will be done if this proposal passes:


 * 1) All the merchandise images will organized by the above categories.
 * 2) All the previous merchandise pages will be deleted since the redirects will serve no purpose.
 * 3) New merchandise pages will be deleted and any images will be relocated to appropriate galleries.
 * 4) The Merchandise page will be organized like this.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Knife}} Deadline: 4 January 2010, 17:00

Support

 * 1) – Per my proposal.
 * 2) - Per Knife.
 * 3) I am Zero! When I looked at the merchandise article you are right, it is a mess, it will be a good idea to do that. Zero signing out.
 * 4) Per Knife.
 * 5) - Per Knife.
 * 6) There's nothing to say when it comes to merchandise, so placing this on a gallery page is needed. I deem this proposal necessary.
 * 7) - Per proposal
 * 8) Per Knife
 * 9) - Good idea. Per Knife.
 * 10) - Per Knife.

Comments
Um...what is that proposals thing in the draft?

Ignore that part.
 * I know, I was just letting the general public know

I think Toys and Collectibles should just be one page (as "Toys"), since it's hard to draw a clear line between them; some people collect anything and everything, while others simply play ("interact") with it all, especially kids (when I was little, I didn't care if my dinosaurs were "models", "figurines" or "action figures" - they were all just toys to me). Board games could probably fit in Toys too, and then anything that absolutely could not be played with (like neon signs or collector's cards) could go in Miscellaneous. Also, will Nintendo Monopoly be merged into the galleries? It seems substantial enough to keep its own separate page. -

Points taken.-- 23:47, 29 December 2009 (EST)

Listen, while this idea may be good on the short term -- in the long term, we will realize that some of the items like Nintendo Monopoly, and possibly other notable items may have enough info to create their own article. Info would have to include: the official name (if it has one), how it was promoted in some way, which company did they make this product, when it was released, and all that info that is good for creating an entry for a merchandise item. I had some plans that have to do with merchandising, but I'm focusing on the following things: Userspace, and the Mario Party 1, 2, and/or 3 mini-game articles. 02:18, 30 December 2009 (EST)}}

Miis
KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE 0-16

I am new here and not sure If I'm doing this correctly, but I propose to extend what this wiki covers to a greatly overlooked part of the Mario universe. Miis.

The reasons for this are, 1) They could be considered crossover from other series. 2) I think that they may play a larger part in the Mario series in the future.

To help back this, I wish to point out that Sonic and DK have numerous pages dedicated to them. These barely make the cut, and so, I think this is precedence enough to add these and other overlooked series characters part of the wiki.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|MiiMe}} Deadline: 4 January 2010, 17:00

Oppose

 * 1) - Our current coverage of Miis is fine; they have all of their appearances listed, and their article is featured. They do not originate in the Mario series, so they don't need any more coverage. And if they will become more important in the future, then the future will be the right time to expand this info. As for now, we live in the present.
 * 2) Per Edofenrir.
 * 3) - First of all, did you know that the Mario Series is actually a sub-series of the Donkey Kong Series? That's why we cover Donkey Kong games and characters. We don't cover, the Sonic Series, except the Sonic characters that appear in Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games. So right there, you know why we have all those articles dedicated to those series. If that's not enough, per Edo.
 * 4) &mdash; Per Edo.
 * 5) Per the fury of Fawful.
 * 6) As said time and time again, our current Miis article covers them enough. Indeed we have multiple pages for DK and Mario characters as they appear in multiple places as different things. We're not dedicated to Miis or any of that such. Until then we don't need any other Mii articles added.
 * 7) - Per EdO!!! and I dont like miis....
 * 8) - per Tucayo.
 * 9) - Per All
 * 10) I am Zero! The coverage of the Miis are fine as they are; all third party characters (Miis can sort of be considered third party) only have info covering there cross over (not including there info boxes), and the information given about the Miis conserning there appearence in the Mario series is just fine. Zero signing out.
 * 11) - Per all.
 * 12) PEr all.
 * Per all.
 * 1) - Sonic and DK BARELY make the cut? What? Those are two incredibly important characters! Plus, we already cover Miis just fine. They aren't major charaters like Mario, or even minor characters like Toadette, so they really shouldn't have a huge fuss made over them. Per Edo and FF65.
 * 2) - Wait! Hadn't I voted before? Anyways, per all.
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
Fawfulfury65: Really? I thought it was vice versa regarding the Donkey Kong thing. Still, something that splits off the main series would still be allowable on the Mariowiki, such as the Yoshi games.
 * Well, Mario first appeared in Donkey Kong so...

What are we even voting on? What would happen if the proposal passes? Have a list of possible Mii faces? That's not even realistically doable. -

If the proposal does pass, we will probably have to make articles on things like Wuhu Island and all those games featuring miis.

@Zero: Miis were made by Nintendo. Thus, they are not third party.
 * I'm pretty sure he was just using "third party" as a way to refer to character originating outside the Mario series (is there an actual term for those? "Third party" nor "Crossover" seem like accurate titles). BabyLuigiOnFire and Fawfulfury65: the original Donkey Kong titles are not considered part of the recent Donkey Kong series (i.e. Donkey Kong Country, DK: King of Swing, Donkey Konga, etc.), and are usually organized so that the emphasis is on their relation to the Mario series (see and ). At most, the two series are equally spun-off of the original Donkey Kong, but that does not make Mario a spin-off of the ongoing Donkey Kong series. -

I go now from this wiki.

@Walkazo It's second party.

I propose this proposal get deleted as MiiMee has left...:/
 * We can't do that.
 * I know, but I think we know the outcome now...
 * Just let it fall through normally; patience is a virtue. Reversinator: thanks! -

How little you all know. I am never fully gone...

Huh?
 * What, are you going to come back as a vandal, spam the crap out of us and then get shamelessly banned?
 * Please do not comment this any further. - }}

Use Present tense for In-game elements/events
USE PRESENT TENSE 12-0

As I edit articles, I see in-game events being told in past tense(ex. "Level 4 consisted of these enemies..."), present tense(ex. "The boss of Level 4 is..."), and even future tense(ex. "The player will then encounter Donkey Kong..."). Some articles use multiple tenses in the same paragraph which, obviously, is grammatically incorrect and looks unproffesional. Of course, actual events in real life that happened in the past or will happen in the future should be their respective tenses. But in-game events, which happen each time somebody plays the game, should be in present tense.

To enforce/clarify this, creating a policy may be a good idea as well should the proposal pass. (Read EDIT below) This would help people to write articles in present tense when creating a new one, as well as edit existing articles to match the policy.

EDIT: Should the proposal pass, a guideline will likely be added to the existing Manual of Style policy, rather than a separate policy.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Garlic Man}} Deadline: 6 January 2010, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - I have waited a long time for such a proposal! Splendid! Per Garlic Man!
 * 2) - I was thinking about making this exact proposal earlier today, but I wasn't sure if there was already a guideline like this. I've come across unfitting past tense phrases in a lot of articles, mainly those about recurring enemies. Using past tense to describe how an enemy acts in a game makes it seem as if that game didn't exist anymore, or nobody could play it anymore, which is obviously not the case. I've been fixing some of it here and there, but there's a lot more of it still. If no guideline like this exists yet, there definitely should be one.
 * 3) - I admit that I wrote several articles in past tense (especially when related to the WarioWare cutscenes), but my views have changed. Pure fiction should be handled as such and there really needs to be a guideline.
 * 4) I'm always wondering what tense should I write in when it comes to revising articles (most of the time, I use past tense, because I probably think that the game event already happened). This proposal is necessary.
 * 5) I am Zero! Hmmm I never notice that, but you are correct, using a combination of past, present, and future ghost tense is very unprofessional. Zero signing out.
 * 6) per LeftyGreenFatMan (not an insult, I know my sister, she won't take that as an insult). No variety is allowed when it comes to tenses, according to the grammar rules. I was pondering what tense to write in, and this is the solution.
 * 7) - Per my annoyance at in-article tense-jumping and not knowing which way to standardize it.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Pel all.
 * 10) FD09 While there are some more important things the manual of style needs this is very important.
 * 11) - Per Vellidragon and his/her comments.
 * 1) - Per Vellidragon and his/her comments.

Comments
I don't see what's wrong with the future tense example in your proposal description. IMO, some variety can't hurt.

Look at the talk page for Lou Albano. Apparently, with real life people, if they die, then the article must be changed to the past tense.

Time Q: Grammar doesn't allow variety when it comes to tenses. If it's present tense, for example, then the whole article has to be present tense.

Well, I think we should use the tense that is used here. I rewrote that article because it was in present simple and sounded really bad. I think that some sentences as :"The MEssage Block provides" are correctly written in present, but some other as "The fourth Dragon coin can be found" should use that tense. Present perfect, IIRC. ANyways, both are presents.
 * "...can be found" is simple present as well, it's just a passive construction. Present Perfect is a construction with "has/have", i.e. "has been found". Present Perfect can also be used in a Simple Present text quite well; "after Mario has [done something], he can" etc. It's mostly a matter of how tenses are used really; "Mario has completed the level" etc. could not be used in a Simple Present text. I guess the guideline/policy/whatever shouldn't limit the tense to Simple Present (that would actually exclude Present Progressive as well, which can be useful in some cases), but simply require that the overall text should be in the "present".--
 * Nice, thanks. And also, the article said before things like :"After a couple of more Rex and the second Dragon Coin, a Super Mushroom pops out of a bush when the player passes. That sounds really bad, as well as unprofessional. Wll those things be allowed?
 * The fact that that sentence sounds bad doesn't seem to have much to do with the tense. It should go without saying imo that articles should be well-written; the proposal's point appears to be that in-game events should be treated as such, taking into consideration they're going to occur everytime someone plays the game.--

Reversinator: Biographies and such that describe real life events that happened in the past should be past tense(ex. "Brawl was released the following year...").

But what would you put if you want to say Mario will fight a boss after going through an area full of spikes?
 * "The player then must fight a boss after going through an area full of spikes".
 * I used "will" several times in the last articles I wrote. For example "They will not leave their place until Wario comes near", "When the treasure hunter does so, Shieragutchi will quickly move up", or "For defeating a Yukiotoko, Wario will be rewarded with a Bronze Coin." Would these sentences have to be rewritten as well? --
 * Yes. They would become something along the lines of these: "They do not leave their place until Wario comes near", "When the treasure hunter does so, Shieragutchi quickly moves up", and "For defeating a Yukiotoko, Wario is rewarded with a Bronze Coin." A good example of what the proposal is aiming for is the plot section of the Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door article. -

The proposal has a minor change. I just remembered about the Manual of Style policy, and that's where this rule would go, not a policy in itself.

I agree with Time Q in that variety can't hurt - as long as it is done well, which it usually isn't, sadly. I'm not against setting standards, since they'll increase the overall appearance of the articles, however I don't think any one tense will do all the information justice. Reading present-tense History sections would feel odd (in school we learn that Genghis Khan invaded the Middle East and China, not that he is invading); so if we have to chose a conjugation for Level Articles and History sections of larger articles, it should be past tense. However, that would also seem inappropriate in Character Page introductions and sections such as Personality ("Princess Peach was a loving ruler." ...So, what is she now? A tyrant?): therefore, we should be able to use present tense in those sections. The stuff concerning the real world is going to be formatted this way (past, present and future in appropriate situations), if I understand Garlic Man correctly, and if we can make that work, we can make the fictional stuff work too. -
 * The problem is that we're dealing with in-game stuff here which is going to repeat every time someone plays the game. Yes, "Genghis Khan invaded the Middle East and China" - it has happened, and he's not going to invade it again because he's dead. But "Parakoopas appear in Yoshi's Island" and "lose their wings when you jump on them", not "appeared in Yoshi's Island" and "lost their wings when you jumped on them" - the latter format is currently used for way too many enemy/species articles and would imply that they're not in the game anymore, and you can't jump on them to make them lose their wings anymore, which is of course not true; yes, the game was released in the past, but unless your game cartridge is broken, they're still going to be there and will be defeatable like that every time you play the game. In-game happenings aren't real world events; they don't only happen once.--vellidragon 10:07, 3 January 2010 (EST)
 * @Walkazo: You're right, histories and biographies should be written in past tense(E.g. Princess Peach made her first appearance in Super Mario Bros). Also, as Vellidragon also explained, Genghis Khan was a real man who existed in the past. As such, human biographies (e.g. Shigeru Miyamoto, Deanna Mustard, etc) would be written in past tense. However, if you're talking about something in a game, such as a plot of a game, it should be written as if you're going through the game, not as if you've already finished the game. If it's written in past tense, it seems like it would never happen again. Of course, when you're not necessarily speaking about in-game elements, this wouldn't apply. For instance, in the trivia section of a game article, you may see "The release date for Example Game was delayed twice before its final release", and this is OK, because it refers to the game as a real life object, rather than the content inside the game. (sorry if my explaination is confusing...) --

Since the events happening in the Mushroom World are fictional, the sections in articles describing in-game events (aka the plot itself) are basically summaries. I don't know how this is handled in America, but here in Germany, it is a general rule that summaries have to be written in present tense. This is commonly what is teached in schools (and any 	deviance is hit with penalty). On a personal note: I think by using present tense, we could show our still-lasting respect for old games. Past Tense seems to imply that they are already forgotten (something I don't want to stand for). -
 * I wasn't formally taught about tenses in respect to fictional works at all; looking at my old assignments, it was mostly in present, with some past tense mixed in (usually dealing with things that were described as being past events by the book itself, but also when talking about early plot points). In response to vellidragon and Garlic Man, I already understood that we'd be using past tense to describe RL events (the first part of the last sentence of my first comment, though perhaps I should have made it more than an aside), and in my vote I mentioned that ongoing things like Paratroopas losing their wings should be deal with in present tense (again, I should have been more explicit). I didn't like the idea of dealing with the games as if we're going through the games because that sounds a bit too much like walkthroughs, whereas past tense would be more like the articles are narratives in themselves. However, I've decided that I don't really oppose the standard enough to vote against it. I do have one final concern/question: in Character Pages containing Background sections in their Histories (dealing with preludes to RPGs, or overviews of their lives prior to their first chronological appearance going by release dates), could past tense be used in the Backgrounds or will it need present tense like the actual appearances' expositions? -
 * As far as I'm aware, in summaries of fictional events, past tense can only be used for background information if it happened before the start of the timeframe that is being summarised (which in this case would be the game the section/article is dealing with, or all the games in which the character appears if the section does not mention any specific one). E.g. if a character were to mention in a game that they moved to, let's say, Toad Town, and you don't see them do just that during the game's events, it would make no sense to write it in present tense, since it happened before the timeframe that is being dealt with and unlike in-game events witnessed by the player in some way is not going to repeat when the game is replayed (the person will state that they moved there every time, but they won't move there again if it doesn't actually happen during the game's events). This is based on what I was taught & what I think makes sense though, other people may disagree.--

}}

Mario Wiki Pulse
NO WIKI PULSE 1-7

I suggest to put a new section on the main page, it shall be called the "Mario Wiki Pulse". Basically it's just something that shows either the top five or twelve articles most seen in that week.

note: if this is not possible to do then remove this proposal.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Zero777}} Deadline: 7 January 2010, 15:00

Give it a Pulse

 * 1) I am Zero! Well there wasn't that much to say since it is so simple but it is a good idea. Zero signing out.

Let it pass....... away

 * 1) A really bad article may end up getting on the front page which may give the wiki a bad reputation. There is a reason why we have featured articles, it's to make us look great. But having bad articles on the main page isn't so great. Besides, there may be a possible repeat of the featured article on the list. And I don't see any point on what article gets seen the most. We are here to provide information, not to showcase what articles were the most viewed this week or whatsoever.
 * 2) - The basic idea is good, but there might be a slight problem. I think most people come here for, well, the main content. What would we do to prevent articles like Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, or the most recently released game from occupying the list overly long? I'm gonna think aloud for a moment: Perhaps we could take on this matter the other way 'round. Instead of highlighting the articles that already have tons of attention, we could highlight some really obscure and overseen articles. It could even benefit the wiki itself, if our editors come across these articles and improve them. My (weird) thoughts to that subject.
 * 3) Changed my mind. Per BLOF.
 * 4) - We already have FAs, so adding another list of pages people should look at to the crowded Main Page seems like overkill. The Wiki Community box already lists pages and projects that need contributors, so Edofenrir's reverse idea is also unnecessary. It just seems like extra work with very little to show for it; we'd be better off focusing on fixing the pages straight away.
 * 5) Per BLOF.
 * 6) Per BLOF, too.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
Fawfulfury65: Sorry, but "I like this idea" is not a reason why you should support. Please list your reason why you support this proposal.

I think I like this idea, this could be interesting. BLOF, I don't think there's a problem with having bad articles on the Main Page. There's already the "Pages Seeking Contributors" section where we list bad articles, after all. Also, our most important article, which may be the most-viewed one, is quite bad actually. It may help to improve those articles, so why not? There's still one problem though: We already have a lot of stuff on the Main Page. A way to solve this would be to get rid of the Featured Image section. We hardly had any new nominations recently, looks like we're running out of good images, so I think it's time to say good-bye to it. If you modify your proposal so that we replace the Featured Images with the "Pulse", and if it's realizable technically, you have my vote.

@Edo: Not a bad idea either. Another idea that comes to my mind is to put articles on the Main Page that have the most increasing number of views compared to the previous week (so we wouldn't have articles like Mario that always have a large number of views but rather articles about current topics of interest). But I doubt this is possible technically.

@Walkazo: I wasn't talking about pages without many contributors, I was talking about pages that get overlooked by our visitors because they are too obscure (don't confuse it with badly-written). Pages with very few views. It doesn't matter though, because I wanted to open new possibilities for this didcussion. -

Edo: I feel like that idea would likely result in a list of(or very similar to a list of) the newest articles in the wiki. The real target for your idea would be pages that have been around for months/years that have only been viewed a few hundred times, correct?
 * Yes, old pages that nobody visits (probably because their existence is not well-known). What I was trying to say is, if we're going to highlight something (please note the "if"), then it should be those articles. Because, why should someone advertise something that already has masses of attention? -
 * People might not be visiting those pages because their topics aren't very interesting, in which case asking people to come to them is futile because they'll probably just leave again. Also, if a page's subject matter isn't well-known, it will be difficult for most people to write about it, and again, calling their attention to the article will not help things very much. "If you build it, they will come" is the cliché that comes to mind for these pages: people who are interested in the obscure things will find their way to the articles on their own (a stub will still register in Google searches); it may take some time, but someone will show enthusiasm for editing the neglected pages eventually. -

}}

Talk Pages Needing Answers
ADD FEATURE 5-0

Not the best name for it, but that's all I can come up with. Anyways, this proposal is to add a little part in the MarioWiki Community section that addresses two talk pages who have an unanswered question. Some of these questions have been on the Mario Wiki for at least a year now, and I'm pretty sure somebody will be able to answer these questions. The thing is, there aren't many talk pages with the talk template, and it's hard to figure out which ones have a question. So, since we already address articles that are stubs, I feel that without this, more and more questions will come-and stay-unanswered.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Reversinator}} Deadline: 9 January, 2010, 20:00

Add Feature

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I need answers!
 * 3) This would be good, because no one ever notices talk page questions.
 * 4) Per Reversinator
 * 5) – Per all!

Comments
Y'know, theoretically we already have Category:Unresolved talk pages, which lists talk pages with open questions. The practical problem you mentioned, concerning that many of talk pages with questions lack Template:Talk, can hardly be solved by a Proposal. You need to encourage the users themselves to use this template with more confidence. -
 * I know about the category. But the thing is, a lot of people don't know about the template and as a result, don't know about the category. My proposal would bring more awareness to them. And I'm not saying that my proposal will answer the questions. I'm just saying it would address them in a more visible fashion. And how do I encourage users? What, I go up to their talk page and say "Hey, if you have a question, make sure to use Template:Talk"?

I don't think another link to unresolved talk pages is necessary, since as far as I know they're already linked to on the Wiki Maintenance page. I do agree that the template is probably not used enough though. Not sure how possible this is, but maybe it could be mentioned in Help:Communication; the help page is linked to in the welcome template and tells people how to use talk pages, but as far as I'm aware does not currently mention the Talk template. It wouldn't seem out of place imo for the template to be mentioned there; just a suggestion though.--
 * I think this is a good idea.
 * And about the whole issue itself: I don't think a Proposal about this subject is necessary (yet). Everything you've addressed could also be put into a suggestion on the respective talk page. If a Sysop sees your suggestion and likes your idea, it might get realized shortly after. We (including myself) tend to hold a lot of Proposals for such things that easily could be suggested otherwise lately. -
 * I felt free to apply vellidragon's suggestion to this page. I hope it looks appropriate for everyone this way. -

We could get rid of the "... have at least one section under construction" line on the MarioWiki Community template and replace it by unresolved talk page questions. Naming articles under construction on the Main Page makes no sense at all IMO, since usually someone is working on them and they do NOT need other contributors at the moment.
 * If I recall correctly there are construction templates on pages that remained untouched for quite some time, but that's beside the point. You are basically right, we should consider to swap those. -

}}

Birdo's Sex Revisited
DELETED

It's a long proposal, but please read it before voting. No "tl;dr"'s please. T_T

Way back when, we had a proposal to refer to Birdo as female in all situations. The result was a 15-1-0 blowout in favor of "She". One argument that many agreed on was that calling transsexuals "it" is offensive to transsexual people. But if we dwell into the depths of English grammar, we find that animals should be refered to as "it", rather than he or she. However, this argument may also be argued back with the fact that Birdo is an anthropomorphic character, which may have different guidelines regarding pronouns. But also, Birdo is refered to both as female in some games and male in other games. In this proposal, we're trying to determine whether Birdo is acatually female or not. Brido dresses like, speaks like(minus the low voice), and attempts to act like a "Girl", but is Birdo really "Female"? Gender may refer to what the person wants to be, establishes themselves to be, and what other people perceive them to be, but Sex is the actual bodily organization of the organism. Remember, Birdo is an animal, not a person. Birdo may be a girl on the outside, but what is she actually on the inside? This proposal prosposes that Birdo should be refered to as "it" in all situations. The thing is, some sources say Birdo is female while others say Birdo is male. Some argue that it's male in Japan and female everywhere else. I don't believe we should discriminate between countries on this. Each source is an individual element, and nationality should be disregarded. Basically, there's no difinitive evidence proving which sex Birdo truly is. Some sources say this, others say that. And they're both as official as the other. Nintendo appears to contradict with itself and thus Birdo's sex is unknown. Although some American sources say female, and this is an American wiki, other sources from other countries say otherwise. We should judge this situation based on the entire world, not just one language, and so Birdo should be called "it".

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Garlic Man}} Deadline: 17 January, 2010, 20:00

For lack of evidence, refer to Birdo as "it" for the moment

 * 1) -- Per proposal.

Assume that Birdo is Female without conclusive evidence

 * 1) -- You are right by saying some American sources refer to Birdo as she and I think since this is an American wiki that we should go by our American sources, not by other country's sources. Also, most of the info just stated about Birdo's sex should be put in the gender section on her page.
 * 2) - Before I get to the actual point: Birdo is an animal as much as Mario is. She's a sapient being, and therefore qualifies as a person. Everything else would be just an elitist glorification of humankind. As for the actual question: We need to make a diversion here. A diversion between gender (mentally) and sex (bodily). We know Birdo's gender to 100%: It's female, in every version (because she identifies as such). Her sex on the other side remains unclear up to this point. However, Though the body is a part of oneself, the decisions an individual makes is what forms a character. A transgender is what he/she decides to be, nothing more, nothing less. Therefore, the character Birdo is female, and should be refered as such.
 * 3) - Edo already stated much of what I would have, and I applaud this wiki for its understanding of the subject. The Birdo article already works well as it is, so switching over wouldn't benefit it in any way.
 * 4) per the Edo.
 * 5) - Per Edo. In any case, "it" would not be a solution for adressing someone whose gender you don't know, and referring to a male-to-female transgender person as "he" is discriminatory. It's fine the way it is.

Comments
We also can't ignore her voice in Mario Tennis (N64). Just sayin'.


 * I think she's a girl, because in Super Mario Advance, I think, when the character encounters her she says some sat=ying of some sort with a feminine voice rather than a masculine one. And aren't there different colors of Birdos as their are of Yoshis? Like in Yoshi's Story when choosing which Yoshi to be, the pink has the pink (or was it white) Yoshi has the most feminine voice while the Black Yoshi has the most masculine. At this point, I neither support or oppose.

@Edo: Firstly, if you read the proposal, I clearly said we're trying to determine Birdo's sex, not her gender. But going by your arguement, do we really know that Yoshi is male as well? Yoshi has a high voice, lays eggs, etc. But, at this point, we are only considering Birdo to be female because we think she is. Is she? Nobody knows, besides the fact that she seems to act like one, but there are no standards of being a "girl". Koopas, according to your definition, are also people, "sapient beings", but yet we refer to the turtles as "it". "They can bounce along the ground or hover back and forth with their wings, which will fall off if the Koopa Paratroopa takes damage, turning it into a normal Koopa Troopa." Why don't we call Koopas male? Because there are multiple? There are multiple Birdos, too, if you remember. The real reason as to why we don't call them male is because we don't know. If we knew, we would call them by whichever gender they are. However, when it comes to Birdo, we assume she is female, but the definition of "Female" is: "A member of the sex that produces ova or bears young." Birdo is Feminine, not Female. I don't know if any of you know about Eddie Izzard, but almost all of his performances, he cross-dresses, speaks like a female, etc, etc. Nobody recognizes him as female, however. He shows every characterstic of being a female on stage, establishes himself to be female, but alas, he is male. Birdo could actually be a transvestite, which are refered to as their actual sex, not the sex they assume themselves to be, but again, we don't know. I'm not trying to say Birdo is female or Birdo is male. I'm saying we don't know.
 * We're not referring to Birdo as female because "we think she is", but because it's appropriate in either case. Referring to a transgender person by their physical sex is not respecting their status as transgender. We don't know Birdo's physical sex, that is correct; in fact, it is probably different depending on which language a source is in, but why do we have to refer to her by her physical sex to begin with, other than possibly insulting transgender visitors to the wiki? Wouldn't it be sufficient to state in the article that it's unknown whether Birdo is physically female or transgender, but refer to her with the only appropriate pronoun (she) throughout the article?--vellidragon 10:59, 10 January 2010 (EST)

@YoshiDaisyfan: I specifically mentioned the thing about the American Wiki, but if we were to do that, we would have to change every Mario Kart Wii article and Mario Strikers article back to the American versions from the European versions. There was a proposal regarding that a while ago.

As opposed to what the "Oppose" section title says now, we do have evidence that Birdo wants to be female, don't we? Birdo would in any case either be female or male-to-female transgender. She would have to be referred to as "she" in either case; calling a male-to-female transgender person "he" (or female-to-male "she") is just discriminatory and rude (suggesting they should be called "it" even more so).--vellidragon 10:40, 10 January 2010 (EST) }}