MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Determine whether reused artwork is a reference
Right now, whenever a piece of character artwork is remade/reused, it's considered a reference in the references section. But I say... why? It's a practice Nintendo's been doing for years, and the poses are always very generic. I don't think anyone at Nintendo says "Hey, remember that Mario Party game from 10 years ago? Let's reference it by reusing Bowser's character artwork!".

Because there's several variables, there are a few different options for this proposal:
 * Only reused artwork is a reference: Only instances where the exact artwork is reused will be considered a reference.
 * Only remastered artwork is a reference: Only instances where the artwork is remade will be considered a reference. For example, Wario's artwork from Mario Party: The Top 100 would be a Super Mario 64 DS reference because it's a remake of his older artwork.
 * Neither are a reference: Self-explanatory, all mentions of reused artwork in any form would be removed from the references sections.
 * Both are a reference: Nothing happens, both continue to be considered a reference.
 * Determine on a case-by-case basis: Artwork reuse being a reference would be determined on a case-by-case basis, similar to other elements of games like reused enemies.

Proposer: Deadline: August 30, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 6, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 13, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Only reused artwork is a reference

 * 1) - Per my original thoughts.
 * 2) - Per proposal.

Only remastered artwork is a reference

 * 1) Remaking an artwork is at the very least giving a specific nod to an element of a game, if not the entire game. Artwork is an element as much as sprites or quotes.
 * 2) Per Baby Luigi's comment. At this point, artwork from the Mario Party games has been reused so many times, it's hardly a reference anymore.

Neither are a reference

 * 1) Per proposal + my comment on the previous take.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) - Per all
 * 7) Don't see why they are a reference

Determine on a case-by-case basis

 * 1) This proposal is clearly better off as a discussion, but I'm going for this option since it's at least an opener for further discussion.
 * 2) Gonna vote here as well since this option now exists, and I see the merits of both.
 * 3) The context surrounding the artwork is far more important into establishing whenever it's a reference. In many contexts, however, especially related to more general artwork, which are later to be used as stock work, this is not true. For instance, it's silly to say that the artwork that appears in New Super Mario Bros. is a reference to Mario Party 6 since it appeared in Mario Party 6 first (if not earlier). If there is important information about how the artwork is reused, especially if it's reused prominently the point it's associated, it should be instead be noted in the file page as well as be categorized in the file page as artwork for those multiple games (e.g. that Mario artwork should be considered Mario Party 6 AND New Super Mario Bros. art). But there are other instances of art where I'd argue that it would be a reference; Mario & Luigi and Mario Strikers art, for instance, are highly stylized so their appearances in other games are references. Even iconic art like the Super Mario Bros. pictures should probably be recognized as a reference if it appears anywhere else. Another reason context matters much is if hypothetically, Super Mario 64-era Mario artwork gets reused. Back then, it's used in more general promotional advertising so its being reused in similar games would've not really been a reference. But it's no longer getting used, so if one sees it in a newer game, would it be a reference? I'd really say if it's more case-by-case especially if artwork start receiving diminished use in the future as rendering technology continues improving and designs continue evolving. So far, a lot of the GCN/Wii/Wii U era art is getting used, even after being re-rendered, but there might be an interesting argument in the future once the that era art stops becoming stock.
 * 4) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 5) Per all
 * 6) Some are references, perhaps, like Bazooka Mario's point about unique art styles, but some are stock artwork. Usually the latter. Really, the best course of action is not to make a solid rule and decide for each image as the issue comes about.
 * 7) - Second choice.
 * 8) - Per Bazooka Mario, and the discussion in the comments. It's like how bringing back a Goomba wouldn't count as a Super Mario Bros. reference, whereas bringing back something like a Hooligon might count as a Super Paper Mario reference.
 * 9) - Per Bazookario.

Comments
I think this should be applied in the same mannerism as we already handle references for policy: referencing Super Mario Bros. because Goombas appear in the game is ludicrous, so saying that Baby Luigi's artwork in promotional material are all references to Mario Kart Wii (which in turn is a reference to Luigi's pose from DDR: Mario Mix) is a bit ludicrous. So in that way, I accept remaking/remastering artwork only when it reuses artwork from that specific game instance, such as Bowser's very specialized, dancing artwork that isn't reused all that often to begin with being reused for Mario Sports Superstars. Artwork such as Waluigi's crouching pose, Yoshi's running pose from Mario Party 8, ie any artwork that gets reused very often, should not be labeled as references. 13:25, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yes, by then it's stock artwork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:27, 23 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I'll also add that some artwork gets edited without it being necessarily a reference: Bowser Jr.'s artwork in Mario Party: Star Rush is an edited version of his artwork in Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, but that doesn't mean that they wanted to reference said game. Actually, I frankly don't think that in most cases the artwork which is reused or remastered is a reference to the original game for which the original artwork was made. I'd rather talk about sourcing in these cases, but we don't have any way to make this distinction at the moment.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:40, 23 August 2018 (EDT)

I say that I don't like any of the options in this proposal. My conclusion is this: some reused artworks are references, many of them aren't, but that doesn't mean no reused artworks aren't references to past games. 16:57, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Agreed; it's better if this was case-by-case, rather than catch-all. 17:01, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I've added a fifth option, since this seems to be a popular opinion. -- 17:28, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * The problem I have with it is that it's pretty vague. 17:42, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it is pretty vague. I like the idea, but since it's too vague, I don't think I can vote for it. For me, most should follow under what I voted for. 17:38, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

Merge Super Mario Land series, Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Run into "Super Mario" series
I know we had this same sort of proposal three years ago, but I feel it's time we bring it back into light, considering there's two more games to consider now, and also just that I feel this warrants a second discussion. To put things simple, as of late, Nintendo has acknowledged the two Super Mario Land titles as part of the main Super Mario series, including them in 30th anniversary material, and listing them alongside the other Super Mario titles on their main website. The distinction between "main games" and "additional games" is a pretty blurred one, if not completely non-existent! But to keep things safe, I'll go ahead and list a few counter-arguments, clarifications, and other additional material I believe may be necessary:


 * Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land would not be counted. It is not listed as part of the Super Mario series in any official Nintendo material, and is more akin to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island than anything else.
 * Not every game with "Super Mario" in the title will be included. - Again, only things counted by Nintendo in 30th anniversary material and things listed on the official website. No Super Mario Kart, Super Mario Party, and ostensibly Super Paper Mario here.
 * The argument against Super Mario Land & 6 Golden Coins - These titles currently aren't included, as they were not included in the 25th Anniversary material. However, I feel we should consider the 25th Anniversary material in this case the same way we consider Jumpman the Carpenter and Princess Toadstool: something that may have been true at one point, but ultimately is disproven by more recent material. Generally when it comes to a case like this, you take more recent material, especially when it comes from an official source.
 * The argument against Run and Maker - These two titles are currently not included on the account that they diverge heavily from traditional Super Mario gameplay. While this is true, we still should probably take note of official word from Nintendo, by including them alongside the rest. And really, when you get down to it, Super Mario Maker is focused on platforming when it isn't focused on stage-designing, and Super Mario Run could just be considered a traditional Mario game adapted to a new platform, much like how Super Mario 64 adapted the series to 3D.

Relevant pages are Super Mario (series), Super Mario Land (series), Super Mario Land, Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run. While this does affect dozens more, these are the most significant titles.

Proposer: Deadline: September 17, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Merge all four titles into the Super Mario series

 * 1) Per everything I said above.
 * 2) PLEASE. And regarding the "Land games not being in the 25th anniversary book" thing, that's obviously simply because there's no reason to interview Miyamoto, Tezuka, and Kondo about a game they didn't create.
 * 3) It always looked odd that Super Mario 3D Land was part of the Super Mario series but not the other portable game it was named after. Per Nintendo.
 * 4) Changing vote, per LinkTheLefty's comment below. Keep in mind that the Super Mario Land games may still need their own section, given that they appear in the 30th anniversary material but not the 25th anniversary book, and were both developed by a different team anyways. It should also be noted that there were even more opposing arguments in the previous two proposals that may still need to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, per all.
 * 5) I say we merge these titles with the Super Mario series. I've been reading through various articles, and I've noticed many inconsistencies. For example, Sledge Bro's article lists its Super Mario Maker / Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS appearance as a part of the Super Mario series, while Bowser's article DOES NOT list the aforementioned game as one of his Super Mario series appearances. I'm fine if both Super Mario Land games still have a series article of their own, but seriously, we should include said games, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run as part of the Super Mario series, because they aren't all that different from the "main" games. It even says so here. Per all.
 * 6) Per all.  Differences in gameplay aren't a substantial reason to discredit a game from the main series.  Super Mario Bros. 2 plays very differently from any other main series game, yet it's clearly a main series game.  I say, these are too.
 * 7) I do feel this makes sense to do if Nintendo includes the games with the Super Mario series. Something like this is definitely necessary, as I have seen inconsistencies on articles about where these games are listed (sometimes Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run are listed with the Super Mario games, and sometimes they are alone).
 * 8) Per all.

Keep the titles separate, as is now

 * 1) Per the opposes for the last two times this was proposed. Yes, I know Doc von Schmeltwick already tried to clear up the confusion as to why the Super Mario Land titles weren't included in the 25th anniversary book, but that isn't the reason I'm opposing. According to Walkazo's respective votes in this proposal and this proposal, the 30th anniversary stuff leaves out remakes and Lost Levels, while the 25th anniversary book doesn't. Also, is there any official confirmation at all that Super Mario Run is part of the main series? Unless both of these issues are resolved, I'm afraid I'll have to oppose any changes to the series pages.

Comments
To clarify my oppose vote a bit, I'm not opposed to including Super Mario Run in the series page, I just want to know if Nintendo has officially considered that game as part of the Super Mario series. Of course we can't rely on 30th anniversary info since that was about a year before Super Mario Run, but is there anything else? Go ahead, I'll wait. 09:02, 10 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The Japanese and English official websites include Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run as part of the main Super Mario series, as well as the two Super Mario Land games; admittedly, The Lost Levels was removed from the latter, but given its release history in the west and how it's billed as a "special version of the original" instead of a numbered sequel, it's understandable (also note that Super Mario USA is listed in Japanese release order on the original site, which pushes technical release chronology). As for remakes like Super Mario 64 DS, I'm unsure how that was ever a factor when we already list them in subsections. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:11, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

"and is more akin to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island than anything else." But isn't that also regarded by Nintendo as part of the Super Mario series? 20:47, 10 September 2018 (EDT)
 * No, that's why it's not listed on Mario Portal. Miyamoto said years ago he considers it part of the "core series of platformers," but that's a bit vague. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2018 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.