MarioWiki:Proposals

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How to handle Super Mario Odyssey sub-locations
Here we go. After years of development hell, it's finally time to do this.

Super Mario Odyssey did something rather new for this franchise - it named every single Checkpoint Flag in the game. Somehow this convinced people that every single one should have its own article, and by now nearly all of them do, along with a few other landmarks. This is quite excessive. While some of them do deserve article because they're major structures or otherwise notable landmarks (we have articles on things like Shine Gate and Surf Cabana), many of them are just random, nondescript level sections that aren't notable in any way. The way we handle it now is basically like giving every planet in Super Mario Galaxy its own article.

There was a proposal about this years ago which the proposer ended up canceling. The problem with this proposal was that it wasn't clear enough about exactly which locations should get articles and which shouldn't. After that, the issue went unaddressed for years. So I went over them and organized them into groups: what we should keep, what we might want to keep, and what we should definitely merge.

KEEP: These are the areas that I think should stay. It includes three different kinds of areas.
 * 1) Towns with unique music from the rest of the kingdom (e.g. Tostarena Town, Peronza Plaza).
 * 2) Sub-areas that cause the name of the area to appear in big white text when entered (e.g. Underground Power Plant, Underwater Tunnel to the Lighthouse), or large, defined structures that contain such areas (e.g. New Donk City Hall). The only exception is New Donk City Hall Interior, which will be merged with the hall itself).
 * 3) Well-defined structures and major landmarks that don't already meet the previous criteria (e.g. Tostarena Ruins, Mayor Pauline Commemorative Park, Glass Palace). Any checkpoints that are just an "entrance" to or part of one of these greater structures (e.g. Tostarena Ruins Entrance, Tostarena Ruins Sand Pillar, Water Plaza Entrance, New Donk City Hall Rooftop) will be merged with them.

BORDERLINE: Ones I'm not quite sure about. These locations are notable to varying degrees, and may or may not deserve articles in the long run. I'm leaning towards keeping them for now since the main point of this is to weed out the really bad ones.

MERGE: Everything not listed above should be merged, but here are some specific examples:
 * Any of the "islands in the sky" that paintings lead to (Southwestern Floating Island, Diving Platform). They're just platforms with a Power Moon on them. Not notable enough.
 * Meaningless, nondescript checkpoint locations that don't stand out in any way (Tostarena Northwest Reaches, Ocean Trench East/West, Top of the Peak Climb).

'''Here is a list of sub-locations in the game (not all of which are checkpoints), and whether or not I think they're split-worthy. Note the scrolling bar on the right - I put that there to save space on the page, since this proposal is already long as it is. If that bothers you, you can look at my sandbox instead.'''

Cap Kingdom
 * Central Plaza: Borderline, kind of noteworthy, but generically named and not that distinct from the rest of the kingdom since there are hat houses in other parts and it's generically named.
 * Glasses Bridge: Keep, minor landmark mentioned in the brochure.
 * Sometimes Bridge: Borderline, context of the name is that the brochure calls it 'The "Sometimes" Bridge', meaning it's not really a name and should probably be merged later, but whatever, it's not high on my priority list.
 * Top-Hat Tower: Keep, it's a major landmark with a sub-area in it.

Cascade Kingdom
 * Waterfall Basin: Merge, insignificant checkpoint location, and the checkpoint goes away once the Odyssey takes it's place.
 * Stone Bridge: Merge, it's just a strip of land with nothing notable about other than it has a bunch of Burrbos on it.
 * Fossil Falls Heights: Merge. It's basically just refers to the upper portion of the kingdom, which includes Madame Broode's battle arena. It doesn't really stand out geography-wise.
 * Top of the Big Stump: Merge, it's just a tree stump.
 * Island in the Sky (Cascade Kingdom): Merge, painting exit location.

Sand Kingdom
 * Tostarena Town: Keep, it's a town.
 * Tostarena Ruins Entrance, Tostarena Ruins Sand Pillar, Tostarena Ruins Round Tower: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Moe-Eye Habitat: Borderline, arguable minor landmark.
 * Jaxi Ruins: Keep, notable structure with a sub-area in it.
 * Tostarena Northwest Reaches: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Desert Oasis: Keep, landmark that stands out from the rest of the area.
 * Southwestern Floating Island: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Inverted Pyramid: Keep, major landmark and major sub-area.
 * Underground Temple: Keep, major sub-area.
 * Deepest Underground: Keep, technically qualifies as a major sub-area. I think it should be merged with Underground Temple, but I'll decide that with a different proposal.

Lake Kingdom
 * Courtyard (Lake Kingdom): Borderline. Generically named, but it's semi-notable I guess?
 * Water Plaza Entrance, Water Plaza Display Window, Water Plaza Terrace: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Viewing Balcony: Merge, painting exit location.

Wooded Kingdom
 * Iron Road: Entrance, Iron Road: Halfway Point, Iron Mountain Path, Station 8: Parts of a greater structure, merge together as.
 * Sky Garden Tower: Keep, major landmark and sub-area.
 * Forest Charging Station: Merge, it's just a place where Steam Gardeners get charged. Not exactly hugely notable and the existing article has very little content.
 * Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Part of a greater structure, merge with.
 * Observation Deck: Merge, generically named and not too distinct, existing article has little content.
 * Iron Cage: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Deep Woods: Keep, major sub-area.

Lost Kingdom
 * Swamp Hill, Mountainside Platform, Rocky Mountain Summit: Merge, insignificant checkpoint locations.

Metro Kingdom
 * Main Street Entrance: Merge, insignificant checkpoint location.
 * Rooftop Garden: Merge, it's just the top of some building that happens to have grass and a few bushes on it.
 * Construction Site (Super Mario Odyssey): Borderline, arguable minor landmark.
 * New Donk City Hall Plaza: Borderline. It's actually kind of nondescript outside of the New Donk City logo in the ground in front of the hall, and could maybe be merged with the hall, but BL just to be safe.
 * Part of a greater structure, merge with New Donk City Hall.
 * Mayor Pauline Commemorative Park: Keep, major landmark.
 * Outdoor Café: Borderline. Generically named, but at least it kind of stands out.
 * Heliport: Merge. It's just a heliport.
 * Isolated Rooftop: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Keep, major sub-area.

Snow Kingdom
 * Shiveria Town: Keep, it's a town.
 * Icicle Cavern, Hollow Crevasse, Wind-Chill Cavern, Snowy Mountain: Keep, they're all major sub-areas.
 * Snowline Circuit: Keep, race track and major sub-area.
 * Keep, race track, currently not on template but should get an article.
 * Snow Kingdom Clifftop: Merge, painting exit location.

Seaside Kingdom
 * Lighthouse: Keep, generically named, but it's still a notable landmark.
 * Underwater Tunnel to the Lighthouse: Keep, major sub-area.
 * Glass Palace: '''Keep, major landmark.
 * Rolling Canyon: Keep, unique area that stands out from the rest of the kingdom.
 * Hot Spring Island: Keep, minor landmark.
 * Keep, minor landmark with a minigame inside.
 * , : Merge, insignificant checkpoint locations.
 * Above Rolling Canyon: Merge, there's a Power Moon near here, but it's not a landmark or anything.
 * Diving Platform: Merge, painting exit location.

Luncheon Kingdom
 * Peronza Plaza: Keep, despite having "plaza" in its name, it's more of a town having unique music and everything.
 * Path to the Meat Plateau: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Meat Plateau: Merge, it's just the spot where you capture a piece of meat and Cookatiel takes you to the top of the volcano.
 * Start of the Peak Climb: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Top of the Peak Climb: Merge, nondescript checkpoint location.
 * Salt Pile Isle: Merge, just a tiny platform in the lava that isn't noteworthy in any way.
 * Floating Sky Island: Merge, painting exit location.
 * Remote Island in the Lava: Merge. It has a painting to the Mushroom Kingdom and a couple of Power Moons, but it's generically named and not geographically distinct.

Bowser's Kingdom
 * Souvenir Shop: Merge. It's basically just a floating island with a Crazy Cap on it, but there's a back door with a secret room inside. And there are seats and stuff... Anyway, it's generically named, and we already have a Crazy Cap article.
 * Island in the Sky (Bowser's Kingdom): Merge, painting exit location.
 * Third Courtyard (Front), Third Courtyard (Rear),, Main Courtyard Entrance, , , , Beneath the Keep: Merge. They're basically different islands and parts of the castle. The Main Courtyard Entrance is where Hariet and Topper and are fought. They're generically named, and they're not really landmarks, just different parts of the level. They're exactly the sort of thing I would compare to SMG planets.
 * Merge: The RoboBrood battle arena. Some New Donkers show up and decorate it a bit later. Otherwise, same as above.

Moon Kingdom
 * Ringing-Bells Plateau: Merge. Nondescript checkpoint location, despite the fancy name.
 * Quiet Wall: Merge, it's just the entrance to the fake link|Underground Moon Caverns.
 * Ever-After Hill: Merge, totally featureless path to the Wedding Hall aside from a red carpet.
 * Wedding Hall: Keep. Major landmark, important story location.
 * Keep, major sub-area.

Mushroom Kingdom
 * Yoshi's House: Keep, already a notable subject before SMO.
 * Peach's Castle Main Entrance: Merge, it's just the entrance to Peach's Castle.
 * Mushroom Pond: Borderline, it's kinda small and the article has little content, but it's not generically named and it's distinct from the rest of the area.
 * Goomba Woods: Keep, geographically distinct location.

Dark Side
 * Rabbit Ridge Tower: Keep, major landmark and sub-area.

There are three options: keep the "keepers" only, include the "borderlines", or everything. Every kingdom article will have a "checkpoint locations" section added to it, sort of like how we handle planets from SMG, with most of the unnecessary articles' content being merged there. Note that this proposal is preliminary - if we keep the "borderline" articles, we can always weed out the ones we don't want with later proposals. Conversely, later proposals can call for the recreation of articles previously deemed unworthy. There is absolutely no perfect solution to this problem, since in several cases, what qualifies as "notable enough" to have a page is subjective. However, we need to draw a line, and I don't want to make 50 proposals just to merge SMO checkpoint flags.

Proposer: Deadline: September 28, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Only split the locations marked "keep"

 * 1) Per proposal.

Split "borderline" locations as well

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Seems the best idea to me for now.
 * 3) I think Fossil Falls Heights, Rocky Mountain Summit, Path to the Meat Plateau and Ringing Bells Plateau shouldn't be merged. Same with most of the locations in Bowser's Kingdom.
 * 4) Per Proposal.
 * 5) I believe this is the best option, as I agree that several of these articles cover areas that are not really notable. I do feel, however, that it makes sense to cover the "borderline" areas, as I feel the ones listed still have some importance. I am a little bit conflicted on the idea of merging every single location in Cascade Kingdom and Bowser's Kingdom, though.
 * 6) Per all. Also, having a list of checkpoints on their respective kingdom's page seems to be a good fit for the long-overdue coverage on each kingdom's Odyssey location.
 * 7) Per proposal

No checkpoint left behind

 * 1) Seems like the most consistent option to me. Even if some of these places aren't too important, they still make for decent articles. I also feel that a lot of information would be lost if these articles were to be merged.

Comments
Let me know if I missed anything - there's a lot to cover here. 00:53, September 21, 2021 (EDT)

@Hewer: Quite a few of them really don't make for decent articles. Most of the "island in the sky" articles are just "It's a platform in the sky. You get there through a painting in [other kingdom]. There's a Power Moon and a Checkpoint Flag. The end." While there's nothing inherently wrong with short articles, I think it's much more logical to just cover them on the kingdom articles like we do with SMG planets. A lot of these are really trivial, just being featureless platforms and random nondescript chunks of level no one would dream of splitting if SMO didn't name every checkpoint. Even then, a lot of the names are generic. Nintendo probably only named them all for player convenience; I seriously doubt they intended things like "Heliport" and "Top of the Big Stump" to be seen as very important locations. Not everything with a name deserves an article (e.g. the Banana Bird caves in DKC3). 18:28, September 21, 2021 (EDT)

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