Talk:Big Cheep Cheep

First appearance
Apparently it appeared in Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure, which was released before New Super Mario Bros. Seeing as this is the Mario wiki shouldn't it's first appearance in the Mario canon be its first appearance, or should it be its Zelda appearance?
 * just put both. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:17, 22 April 2013 (EDT)
 * Just did some browsing and there is nothing on it
 * Except on the Cheep-Cheep from the zelda wiki it mentions giant cheep-cheeps that appear in Four Swords Adventures.
 * But was it confirmed as a Mega Cheep-Cheep, for all we know, it's just a bog standard larger version and not a Mega one

Iterations
So, as we know, Boss Bass/Big Bertha is called "Kyodai Pukupuku" (Giant Cheep Cheep) in Japanese, corresponding to "Kyodai" versions for Goombas, Troopas, and Piranha Plants that are around today and not particularly changed, using the identifier "Deka" (big). In English, these all formerly had very creative names, but now settle on a stock "Big" title. Deka Pukupuku, however, is physically quite different from Kyodai Pukupuku, with the old design instead going to Bakubaku. While it would seem odd that Boss Bass and Big Cheep are the same, a new factor was given to us recently: the related Porcupuffer, normally not the voracious sort, eats Mario like a Boss Bass or Cheep Chomp in Super Mario Maker 2. The point I believe this gives us is attributes of behavior are relative and subject to change per developers' whim. Boss Bass was always intended as a large version of the jumping Cheeps from SMB3 with the added detail of being able to eat Mario, while Big Bertha was a large version of the Cheeps that lazily swim back and forth, with the added detail of brooding Baby Cheeps. Heck, the Baby Cheeps themselves are proof that these are just giant Cheep Cheeps, as why would they brood a baby of a different species? The smooth fins are also just enlarged from Cheep Cheeps' own non-detailed sprite for that game, which I have worked on many, many times. As more proof, the filename for the NES Remix 2 stamp of Boss Bass is "PukupukuBig," being alongside "NokonokoBig" for Big Koopa Troopa. This means that Boss Bass is still considered the "big Cheep Cheep." Now, between Kyodai Pukupuku and Deka Pukupuku, there was also the "Ōkina Pukupuku" (as called by Message Block) in Yoshi's Story, which also means "Big Cheep Cheep." This I also believe to b an early iteration of Big Cheep Cheep; it's literally an enlarged version of the Cheep Cheep render model for the game, and the red ones act like Boss Bass, with a few minor differences to account for gameplay. This type of large Cheep Cheep also cameos in Mario Gold and Super Circuit, before the current iteration appears in Four Swords Adventures and New Super Mario Bros, where they are just an enlarged version of those games' non-carnivorous Cheeps. So what happened to the eating? It was given to the Bakubaku, which in turn would made more similar to the original Big Cheep Cheep, the Boss Bass. Bakubaku was never Kyodai Pukupuku; they were the same size as Pukupuku in SM64, after all. Basically, what I'm getting to is this: both Boss Bass and Story Blurp are the same as Big Cheep Cheep and should be merged, ending this "fish" debacle once and for all. If Big Goombas can start reproducing by fission, Big Cheep Cheeps can get ahold of their appetites. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, September 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm not too sure. I'm opposed to merge any of these, but i have no arguments. -- 07:54, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As for the Boss Bass, i didn't pay attention, but i'm opposed to it anyways. See Kyodai Hanachan and Deka Hanachan. -- 08:17, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * With those, they are a distinctly different size anyways, and they aren't one of the things from SMB3, and there's that unused data thing with them. All the Kyodai of SMB3 are merged with the Deka of today.....except this. As for why you have no arguments, it's because there's no logical reason for them to stay split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Just because internal filename is "big" does not mean insta-merge. Nintendo tend to use filenames like this. (but other enemies are an incomparable situation). Blurp came out with two colors named differently, yet still lumped together, unlike Boss Bass and Big Cheep Cheep. And no, it's not because there's no logical reason to keep them split that i have no arguments, it's that i do want to counter your arguments, yet mines won't be valid with all what you said. It'll avoid speculation, unlike merging. -- 08:14, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * There is, however, logical progression with the enemy evolution - Boss Bass / Big Bertha is treated as the giant counterpart of Cheep Cheep in the original game, whose trademark behavior went to the large Cheep Cheep with a color variation (in Yoshi's Story design), which lost the behavior but stayed as a big Cheep Cheep in newer games (in traditional design). Yoshi's Story is effectively the missing link here, where they changed it to be a scaled-up Cheep Cheep but still had Boss Bass behavior. As for the internal filename being "big" not meaning insta-merge, in normal cases there'd be room for doubt - but that sidesteps the fact that the file was named within the original game's context over 25 years later, and the developers could have simply named it "bakubaku" like just about every other modern instance of Cheep Chomp. Yes, there is an exception with Wiggler due to circumstances (which, by the way, does not have this filename oddity), but on the other hand, look at an article like Mega Block (which shares the same "big" Japanese descriptors as the merged Big Cheep Cheep article would have). Honestly, I wasn't on board with this idea at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:32, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Exactly! I've been entertaining this thought for quite some time myself, but didn't want to go through with it without knowing the file name for NES Remix 2 (as pointed out previously, there's no "conceptual" in this case due to being based off a game that's multiple decades old) or actual textual proof that the "Blurps" were meant to be the same as Boss Bass and Big Cheep (which I now have). At this point, I see no reason to keep them split other than to make things "easy" at the cost of being less accurate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:57, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hmmm... -- 02:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

Just chiming in to say I'd also be in favor of a merge. 04:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Thanks, anyone else who supports or opposes, please chime in too so I can tell how popular this is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:37, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think the Yoshi's Story Blurps are Big Cheep Cheeps, as regular ones appeared in that game and had the same design, except obviously smaller, so I support that being merged (Also, I think their appearance in Mario Golf should just be merged with Cheep Cheep). As for Boss Bass, I'm not really all that sure, but I'm thinking no on that one for now, since they do act different and have a different design (distorted pupils, bigger mouth, smaller fins). 16:43, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The fins proportional to the main Cheep Cheep's would take more tiles to animate, which on the NES is a major factor. Note how Big Koopa Troopa had a disproportionately large shell compared to the normal one. As for the big mouths, that's just behavioral, and the Story red ones act basically the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:08, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * So that leaves the distorted pupils, which could be a minor design change... 17:41, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The eyes already had to be scrunched a little to make room for the mouth, and probably to make it clear from the get-go they were dangerous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:58, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The only way i can see a merge working, is if the wording is handled similarly to what we have currently in the Bull's-Eye Bill page. -- 06:29, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Except it's not an inspiration or divergence, it's the same thing with different behavior and a redesign. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think we can do it that way if it's easier to follow, though in regards to the idea of merging one but not the other, I think the case for merging both is stronger because a visible evolution would be seen in the merged article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

The Yoshi's Story Big Cheep Cheeps have a name, Big Blurp (or just Blurp), so I'd be wary of merging them. Boss Bass can be merged, it's just a Big Cheep Cheep that can eat you. 11:41, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * "Blurp" seems to be just that the translators misread "Pukupuku" as "Bukubuku." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:44, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * That doesn't change the fact that they have a name that isn't Big Cheep Cheep, in-game. I stand by my thoughts on the whole Bull's-Eye Bill fiasco: using a Japanese source before an English one to determine if an enemy is related to another, when the wiki prioritizes English sources, is ridiculous. 11:47, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * It is actually a pretty common mistake even for professional translators to misread Japanese diacritics, which is how Cheep Cheep kept getting confused with Blurp for a while (it's not an issue exclusive to Yoshi's Story). Also, in response to the "ridiculousness" of using Japanese sources on an English wiki - the entire Mario franchise is, predominantly, a Japanese franchise. Yes, there are select games made by western developers, but that's the exception, not the rule. Just as we prioritize English sources from western-made games (the minority), we prioritize Japanese sources from Japanese-made games (the majority). Inconsistent translation is also the reason for most (but not all) name changes, not accounting for previous localizations, and thus strictly adhering to localization would cause needless confusion. Let others be concerned with "Englishness" of their own wikis; that's not how we handle things here. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also note how Galoombas had, in English, "a name that wasn't [Galoomba] in-game," but that doesn't mean it should be split. Heck, so did Cheep Cheep itself. And that's not even getting into when it is and isn't hyphenated. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'd be fine with merging them, then. 13:56, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

So we seem to agree on merging Blurp... Although I'm still not sure about Boss Bass. Are there any official sources that describe them as Cheeps, but bigger? 15:22, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * As previously stated, their NES Remix 2 filename is literally "PukupukuBig," which given the nearly 30-year gap means they still consider them the same. They're in the same boat as the other "big" enemies from SMB3, even though they never appeared alongside them in-game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:58, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't think an internal filename should be considered one of our most valid sources... Also, what do you mean as "being in the same boat"? Are they classified as big enemies somewhere? I'm not completely against the merge, but I'd like some more proof if I were to support it... 16:13, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * A filename isn't a great source if it's a wholly-new game, where their vision from the outset may be different from the final product, like this, this, this, this, this, or this, but again, I must iterate: this is taken wholesale from a game that was over 25 years old at that point, meaning their vision for it was pretty well set in stone. Anyways, as proof that they were considered "large Cheep Cheeps" at the time, one is used as Giant Land's representative for the credits of SMB3 (despite not appearing in gameplay there). And again, it's an edited version of a scaled-up sprite for that game, including the smooth fins. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:18, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Okay, I think a merge would be fine. I also forgot about them being associated with Giant Land in the credits. 16:35, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * A wording similar to the Bull's-Eye Bill page could work to more easily follow how big variants of Cheep Cheeps have evolved over time. -- 05:13, September 13, 2019 (EDT)

I also noticed that the Boss Bass's other appearances were merged with Cheep Chomp. Is there a source for them being the same? 14:51, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * The Japanese name is Bakubaku, and they predate it being colored purple. Note that the SM64DS and NSMB ones are literally the same model but recolored. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Is a proposal necessary? There has been a major agreement on merging Boss Bass (and Big Bertha), and the Blurps here. -- 02:03, September 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given how much of a point of contention it's been in the past, then yes. I'd like to get at least a few more people saying something one way or the other before I do anything, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:15, September 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Now that we have further evidences, i'd agree merging it, and explaining how it has evolved. I'd also wait for more consensus to show up first. -- 10:20, September 17, 2019 (EDT)

Alternatively, Boss Bass is Cheep Chomp and had some twists and turns in transition to its current appearance, while Big Cheep Cheep is a new enemy taking the place as a big variant of Cheep Cheep. Big Blurps could be either, not really sure about which, since they came after Bakubaku but have its man-eating trait, or maybe it's just a big Cheep Cheep variant of Yoshi's Story. SmokedChili (talk) 09:25, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * But again, Nintendo seems to currently consider Boss Bass to be the same as Big Cheep Cheep given the internal name in the NES Remix games. It seems at this point like after SM64DS decided to mix up the two similar creatures (like with the monkeys), they just kept the traits they shared to the SM64 enemy while making Big Cheep Cheep more like a big Cheep Cheep. (This would be so much easier if they'd decided to color Cheep Chomp orange in NSMB instead of purple...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:28, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Or the internal names are like that in respect to the source material they're used for and have no bearing on other iterations, much like how "Bowser's kids the Koopalings" story is still used in SMB3 related stuff like in this 30th anniversary feature from Famitsu. We know they're Bowser's kids there, but we also know that's not the current story, so it has to be specifically SMB3 stuff. So for Boss Bass, it was given the internal name based on its Japanese SMB3 name. But its similarity to Cheep Chomp in behavior and appearance, not to mention the link via Yoshi's Island DS, are more proof than an internal name, which are something only this wiki appears to consider for connecting subjects on a grander scale. SmokedChili (talk) 14:36, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * How about the Yoshi's Story ones? For the record, it's not just "Blurp," it's "Big Blurp." The site used just "Blurp" to fit in with its storybook rhyme. Anyways, they're just "Big Pukupuku" there, act like Boss Bass, but look like big Cheep Cheeps. Additionally, why would they care about following the story at the time in a thing that's not even viewable without external hardware not intended to be used for simply playing the games? Cheep Chomp is less the "current iteration of Boss Bass" and more "the dumpster they put all of Big Cheep Cheep's old annoying traits." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually, checking through some Japanese YS videos made me notice how spaces are a common feature in the writing of the game. This writing style is important, because it disproves "Ookina Pukupuku" as a name since adjectives are very often separated with spaces, and おおきな プクプク is written just like that. Thus the context of the English message box should be "a big Blurp" instead of "a Big Blurp", and all they have for Japanese names are "Akapuku" and "Aopuku" from the guides. SmokedChili (talk) 10:33, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * If they're so common by the game's standards, why is that disproving? And even if it's not technically a name, the role is still there, and the description is essentially the same as the ones with actual names. That it's described as such and acts like a gameplay-altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:52, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Point is that whenever a Japanese text has so many spaces, it's to make the text easy to read especially for children. But whenever we see names for Mario characters, they are always written together, as is Japanese text in general. Just try look at the Japanese Yoshi's Story character and enemy lists. The fact that none of the names have spaces in them makes おおきな プクプク all the more suspect. As for the role, just because something from game 1 shares the role with something else from game 2 and the former is even based on the latter means nothing if the end product is different. Like Rotten Mushroom, known internally as "Poison Mushroom". So while Akapuku and Aopuku are the big YS Cheep Cheeps, just because they're similar to Boss Bass, the SMB3 big Cheep Cheep, doesn't make the two the same. On the other hand, by your logic, that Bubba/Cheep Chomp is described as such and acts and looks like an altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. SmokedChili (talk) 12:18, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * OK. Regarding the YIDS one, this was after Baku had been made to look like the SMB3 enemy in 64DS and the "literally just a giant Cheep Cheep" iteration of the "big Cheep counterpart" concept had been established, not to mention Yoshi's Island loaned enemies tend to act off (looking at you, Piranha Plant). Still good points. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:01, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hmmm... The Rotten Mushroom concept. -- 02:16, September 20, 2019 (EDT)

Further info: in the Game & Watch Gallery 2 iteration of Parachute, a Cheep Cheep that is identified as a simple, generic Cheep Cheep appears with Boss Bass's attack, jumping low out of the water, mouth agape in ordr to eat people. Furthermore, it looks just like the SMW Cheep Cheep when not jumping, but looks like a Boss Bass (complete with angry squint) when jumping, supporting that Boss Bass is just intended as a large Cheep Cheep. Heck, normal Cheep Cheeps jumped with mad squints and open mouths in SMW2 as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:19, October 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * They squint in Yoshi's Island? I didn't see that detail. -- 12:25, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, whenever they jump in a sideways arc with an engine-rotated sprite. See here, right next to the Jean de Fillet. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:17, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * As current discussion is going on with certain ideas such as "Rotten Mushroom concept" (which is also the case for Dragoneels), i think that i'm going to think a little bit. -- 02:08, October 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * You don't need to use quotes when you're the only one who's referred to it by that name (which is also strange since it's far from the first or even most notable example....) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:16, October 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Anyways, a proposal might be necessary at this point. -- 05:12, October 28, 2019 (EDT)