Talk:Ankoopa

Name
For future reference, the Prima guide for ML:SS refers to the Ankoopa as a "giant turtle". The term's consistent for a couple of pages, but it's hard to verify if it's consistent throughout.
 * The NP guide also refers to them as giant turtles. It's a very generic term, to the point where it seems silly to consider it an official name, but with a lack of a source for "Ankoopa", is it worth renaming the article?
 * What's the context? 16:41, 5 January 2016 (EST)
 * I can't speak for the NP guide (you'd have to ask Smasher), but for Prima:
 * "A giant Turtle[sic] blocks the passage to a cave to the right of the watering hole. (And, no, the Hammers the boys receive won't do the trick.)" (p. 58)
 * "Use Fire Tickle to make Luigi stiff-arm the giant turtles blocking the pathway." (p. 97)
 * "Barrel through the giant turtle to the east. Continue east. Knock over the giant turtle and take the yellow pipe back to the surface." (p. 98)
 * Those are the only mentions I could find.

generic or not, "ankoopa" is an invented name that makes No Sense. I'd rather have it changed. --Glowsquid (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2016 (EST)

Would it be reasonable to put in in if not put it in Big Koopa Troopa? 17:20, 5 January 2016 (EST)
 * That's definitely a conjectural name. Even if the authors meant "Koopa", they wrote "Turtle", so we're stuck with that. I also wouldn't put them in Big KT, since they have a noticeably different appearance and they all have that same dumb-sounding dialog that no other Koopa species has.
 * Honestly, I'd me much happier with "Giant Koopa (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga)" than taking "giant turtle" far too literally as the name, which is basically conjectural too (only more misleading because then there'd be no template admitting we're grasping at straws). It's like how despite a Japanese manual talking about an enemy that was like a "kikai no sakana", we named the article Mechanical Fish - it's a much more straightforward and intuitive (for the majority English-speaking readers) conjectural title than if we'd pretended the Japanese description was the name, but since it's taken (and directly translated) from an official source, it's at least better than pulling a name out of a hat. In this case, "giant" comes from the "giant turtle" descriptions while "Koopa" comes from the fact that they're Koopas, and calling a spade a spade will be less confusing for readers and better for searches and whatnot. But even though "Ankoopa" does seem to have been made up, it's all over the Internet, so when we move the page, leave the redirect intact. Finally, leaving a separate page is better than merging it with Big Koopa Troopa because there are differences between these guys and regular Koopas (the overhanging shell and sheer pudginess), plus having the game in the page title will hopefully help convince folks looking for "Ankoopa" that this is still the page for them. - 18:26, 5 January 2016 (EST)

Merge with Big Koopa Troopa
In the remake, these things look identical to Big Koopa Troopas, the Japanese name doesn't distinguish them from regular Koopa Troopas, and they don't seem to have an official English name, so we're stuck with the horribly generic, facepalm-worthy name "Turtle." For that reason, I think we should merge this with Big Koopa Troopa. Its pudgy appearance in the original game can be written off as a design oddity. 20:50, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * What about that wince-inducing "shell all the way behind the head" detail? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * What about the Cheep Cheeps in several N64 games, the Skeeters in Galaxy 2, and so many Super Mario Sunshine enemies? One-off design oddities do not a new species make. Especially when the remake seems to have settled on them being regular giant Koopa Troopas and our only other option is calling it a "turtle." 20:40, 8 February 2019 (EST)
 * I wasn't arguing, I was just bringing up an extraneous detail :P Anyways, I'm still not sure of this, through the Japanese name might be intended to be taken as a generic identifier. In the end, though, seeing these as Big Troopas may be the best we have. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'm also not sure about this, though I'm leaning towards the idea that it's more of a replacement like Puffer-Cheep and Spiny Cheep Cheep or Psycho Kamek and Dr. Toadley. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:42, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * I would agree, but there's one major difference between Puffer-Cheeps and these things: Puffer-Cheeps have a proper name. Because of that, we are catering to the whims of incompetent guide writers and calling them "Turtles." It's not a real name, it's us grasping at straws because we can't find anything better. I suppose we could only merge the remake version and consider it a replacement along the lines of Spiny Cheep Cheep replacing Puffer-Cheep. However, I just don't think that the fat Koopas are distinct enough to split without an official name. That, and I just hate having a Koopa Troopa named "Turtle" on the wiki. 20:34, 10 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not sure wether to merge it to Koopa Troopa or to redirect it into Big Koopa Troopa either. Merge to Koopa Troopa, i'd say. -- 08:03, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * I disagree most with merging it with the basic regular-sized variant because the game already has those Koopa Troopas. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:08, 9 February 2019 (EST)

What to do with this article
This is a continuation of the above discussion in proposal form. To sum up, here's a rundown of the current situation:
 * The fat Koopa Troopas in ML:SS are redesigned to look exactly like Big Koopa Troopas in the 3DS remake.
 * These things do not have a known official name in English. Prima generically called them "Turtles." So thanks to their infuriating incompetence, we have a Koopa Troopa named "Turtle" on the wiki.
 * The Japanese name does not distinguish them from ordinary Koopa Troopas.

The way I see it, we have four ways to deal with this issue:


 * Merge with Big Koopa Troopa: My preferred solution. It gets rid of the "Turtle" issue, and the fatness can be considered a one-off design oddity. Mutliple enemies in Superstar Saga had off-model designs, so this is hardly a stretch.
 * Merge with Koopa Troopa: I don't agree with this at all for reasons mentioned in the above discussion, but I'll add it for the sake of completeness.
 * Consider the appearance of Big Koopa Troopas in the remake a replacement of the original species: Some species/characters were replaced in Bowser's Minions (Puffer-Cheeps with Spiny Cheep-Cheeps, Mecha-Chomps with Mechakoopas), so we could treat this like a replacement rather than a redesign. If this passes, A Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions section will be added to the Big Koopa Troopa article stating that they replaced the fat Koopas and BM will no longer be considered an appearance of the "Turtles." This doesn't get rid of the "Turtle" problem, though.
 * Do nothing: Self-explanatory.

Proposer: Deadline: February 26, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Merge with Big Koopa Troopa

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I'd see no harm in this.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) That "Turtle" name we have shouldn't have been a thing to begin with despite the Prima guide being a complete fuck up.
 * 5) Per above.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per the original Hammer Bros. being Sledge Bro vultures. And literally being "big" versions of the Troopa NPCs, even if obese and malformed in the shell, as well as the wholly generic JP name.
 * 10) I was kind of conflicted about this at first, but I see no reason as to why I shouldn't support this.

Merge with Koopa Troopa

 * 1) The Japanese guide simply considers them as a normal Koopa Troopa, so this seems to be the most appropriate option for me. Merging it with the big one speculative, and it be better if we merge it to Koopa Troopa.

Consider the appearance of Big Koopa Troopas in the remake a replacement of the original species

 * 1) Wait, the case of Spiny Cheeps? Definitely, it was originally a Porcupine fish, and is now a Spiny Cheep Cheep. And let's say, it was originally an oversized normal Koopa Troopa before being the actual big variant. Also, yes, Mechakoopa replaced the Mecha Chomp. And by extension, per Mister Wu's comments.
 * 2) Just discovered that they had a different official name back then, different name and different appearance likely means that they were their own thing back then
 * 3) Per poorly-timed evidence.
 * 4) Per Mister Wu's evidence.

Comments
The main issue I have with fully merging with Big Koopa Troopa is that the "big" enemies are scaled-up versions of the normal-sized enemies, whereas these Troopas also (originally) had different proportions and so I don't think that is exactly what the creators were trying to evoke (for example, a Fat Guy is not a Mega Guy). Additionally, that option still wouldn't completely resolve the issue of calling them "Turtles" since using contemporary names is part of policy, and since "Big Koopa Troopa" didn't enter use until nearly a decade later, we wouldn't be calling them Big Koopa Troopas when referring to Superstar Saga. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:42, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * Most instances of "turtle" seem to be lowercase, though, indicating it wasn't intended as a definite name. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:47, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * I think there's no perfect solution in this case because it's the remake that's throwing a loop in this as well as Prima guide not helping at all and probably being counterproductive. I'd much prefer if we could keep information on the Superstar Saga Koopa and the remake Koopa in one spot if we can. It'll help with the searches and all. I also need to point out that the remake should count as "updated" information because we did rename that Boomerang Bro. to Beanerang Bro, so that argument on "since the name isn't used a decade earlier, we shouldn't be messing with the continuity [or something like that]", to me, is not really solid to me. 23:53, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty: That policy you cited also specifically says not to take Prima's blatant research errors at face value. And calling Koopa Troopas "turtles" is as blatant as it gets. If this merge happens, the proper "name at the time" would be "Giant Koopa," not "Turtle." As for the Fat Guy and Mega Guy point, well, it's easier to distinguish those because they are both officially named. The fat Troopas of ML:SS are not. Without that, I just can't take fatness as an indicator of an entirely new species. It's not like we consider Heff T. a member of a "Fat Toad" species, he's just a Toad who happens to be fat. 01:41, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * I strongly disapprove of merging to Big Koopa Troopa! Isn't there an option to merge the original version's part with Koopa Troopa, and the remake's part with Big Koopa Troopa? I'm waiting more evidences to show up, such as the remake's Japanese name. IMO, it'd be too difficult to turn into a redirect, and for which one. -- 01:39, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * That seems like a needlessly complicated solution to me. The Japanese name seems to me more like a case of the guide not being specific rather than an indication that they're ordinary Koopa Troopas. There are regular Troopas in the game, they just wear uniforms, and they're much smaller than the fat Koopas. The Japanese name for Big Koopa Troopas isn't consistent anyway. 02:00, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * The Japanese name isn't consistent when it is considered as a separate entity, while this is not considered as a separate entity. Until we have more proofs on that (asking Nintendo isn't a very good idea though), it would determine wether it should be merged with Big Koopa Troopa, or vindicate merging it with Koopa Troopa. Does someone understands Japanese to read the text? -- 12:51, 25 February 2019 (EST)

Sorry that I forgot to check until now, but the Nintendo Official Guidebook of the original Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga on page 78 and 81 doesn't call them 「ノコノコ」, but rather 「ノコッタス」, a name I can't find in this wiki and thus maybe an original name for a different species. Therefore, the argument that they were changed in the remake has some evidence backing it up.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:28, 26 February 2019 (EST)
 * So is it Nokottasu? One unrelated thing, what are the Japanese names of a Blurp-like fish and the Sharkbone. Do they have the same Japanese name, or do they have different Japanese names? -- 06:43, 26 February 2019 (EST)
 * It is Nokottasu, on page 75 they are introduced for the first time, actually:

道をふさぐノコッタスはダッシュで倒して進もう

②の石橋 の向 こう側 に立 っているノコッタスをダッシュで倒 せば、先 へと進 める. なお、ノコッタスは、ここ以外 にもいろいろな場所 にいるので、見 かけたらぶつかってみよう.

Caption:

じゃまなノコッタスをダッシュで倒 したら、マップを上 へと進 んでいき、Ⓐの土管 をめざそう
 * the fishes are known as 「スナプク」 and 「スナジロー」, so Sand Cheep is actually the appropriate name, while the shark just has an own name.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:28, 26 February 2019 (EST)
 * Should i make a counterproposal in four weeks, given that its Japanese name turns out to be "Nokottasu"? -- 11:30, 26 February 2019 (EST)
 * A new proposal must be done, since the premises of this proposal are incorrect. We now have no evidence that they were originally intended to just be Koopa Troopa, and the name given by Prima just reflects the lack of an English name given by Nintendo of America, likely due to the name of the species not being mentioned in the game.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:52, 26 February 2019 (EST)

Split Nokottasu from Big Koopa Troopa
Here we go again. Six weeks ago, I made a proposal that resulted in this article being merged with Big Koopa Troopa, the reason being that these things seemed to be nothing more than large, overweight Koopa Troopas that lacked a distinct name. However, it turns out that they do have a unique name, at least in Japanese. Of course, since this information came to light at the last possible second, it was too late to change the outcome of the proposal. It's time to remedy that.

Options:
 * Split only the original game's Troopas: Nokottasu will only refer to the fat Troopas from the original game. This is the equivalent to the third option on my previous proposal (which probably would've been the winning option had that crucial info come earlier...).
 * Split the Troopas from both versions: This would revert things back to how they were before my previous proposal passed, only we won't be calling them turtles anymore.
 * Do nothing: Retain the results of my previous proposal.

Proposer: Deadline: April 10, 2019, at 23:59 GMT

Split only the original game's Troopas

 * 1)  The remake ones are clearly just normal Big Koopa Troopas, while the original game's Troopas have the pudginess and the doofy eyes and are the only ones confirmed to have this name.
 * 2) Since the Nintendo Official Guidebook of the remake hasn't been written, I guess we can just follow the material we have, plus the visual evidence that in the remake they no longer have a unique appearance. Sorry for looking late into that book.
 * 3) Unless a guide ends up being written later (fairly unlikely), then I consider this to be the safest option.
 * 4) Indeed. Though, IIRC, there was at least one instance of "turtle" capitalized despite not being in the start of the quote. LinkTheLefty asked to someone for the remake's internal filenames. What do we do about Presenter?
 * 5) Per all. This seems like a good compromise.
 * 6) Nokottasus have a unique design, while in the remake they seem to be almost definitely replaced with Big Koopa Troopas. This case seems more like what happened with Dr. Toadly. Nokottasus should be the split page's name, due to "turtles" being generic and not a proper noun. Per all.
 * 7) Per all.

Split the Troopas from both versions

 * 1) The above needlessly splits information that does not have to be split - as of now, we lack any conclusive proof that the remake replaced them with functionally-identical Big Koopa Troopas, and we're going by the redesign only, which is somewhat subjective. The article for the turtle can be expanded to include a list of locations (much like the mole already has in its own Superstar Saga section), which would be best to contain all in one spot.
 * 2) Second option, per LinkTheLefty.

Comments
Does the remake have a JP guide that may be more definitive? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I tried looking for it, but from what I found no guide has been written, not even the Nintendo Official Guidebook.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:28, March 26, 2019 (EDT)

Just to clarify: Turtle is likely capitalized. From what we have seen with Bats and Moles, it looks more and more likely that this naming is not really the fault of Prima or a sign of incompetence, but rather a generic species name used in place of a specific Japanese name that lacks a proper English equivalent. In Japan, Bats are known as Batton, Turtles as Nokottasu and Moles as Presenters (with the beginning of the name, Pu, likely referencing Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles). I'm wondering if we'll see other cases like those three, in which case we should consider a wiki-wide proposal to deal with them.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:45, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * It looks like we're fixing a mistake we made above. LinkTheLefty asked to what are the remake's internal filenames. -- 08:00, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * It was, although I don't think we're going to get an answer in time at this rate. I should note that most of the filenames in the other DS and 3DS games have not been useful. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, March 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * According to Time Turner's comment way up at the top of this page, it's "giant Turtle" once and "giant turtle" the other two times. In other words, there's no consistency in the capitalization. And yes, it is a sign of incompetence, at least in this particular scenario, since even if they didn't know the name of this specific species, they should still know better than to call Koopa Troopas "turtles" ("giant Koopa Troopa" would have been a better generic term to use). They even do this with enemies that have well-established official English names, such as calling Gnawties "Beavers." 22:06, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yes, from what I've been able to tell, most instances are "turtles" instead of Turtles (which is only a Prima mention), and all instances of Moles are "moles" in both guides. Using Nokottasu as the article title may be preferable, and whichever way it goes, Presenter should probably get the same treatment. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, March 29, 2019 (EDT)

In case you need a source for the name, here is .--Mister Wu (talk) 19:31, March 29, 2019 (EDT)