Talk:Wilt Shroom

Merge Wilt Shroom with Dried Shroom
Same Japanese name, same function, no significant differences other than amount of HP restored (and items have restored different amounts of HP between games before). And considering how much the Paper Mario series references Super Mario RPG, it'd make sense for these two items to be intended to be the same thing.

Proposer: Deadline: September 19, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) They have different names in English, both look completely different, and they restore different amounts of HP (which may not be all that relevant, but my other points still stand). I don't understand the logic of "Japanese names instantly make it the same thing", as if the English versions mean nothing.
 * 2) SYB has a good point. Per him.
 * 3) I don't see the point to merge these two articles, especially when their appearances and English names are different. If Super Mario RPG was a Paper Mario game, I'd lean toward a merge, but they're two different games by two different developers, despite Paper Mario's being a spiritual successor. The only similar cases I can find are Maple Syrup and Honey Syrup, but they share English names across the games, so they aren't great examples. Otherwise, there isn't a great precedent to cite here other than similar Japanese names (not a strong case) and loose assumptions of succession (not a strong case either), so I'm leery about a merge.
 * 4) The Dried Shroom is a common item found that is the weakest mushroom available. The Wilt Shroom is entirely a 'joke' prize given out by Knife & Grate, plus it has a companion in the Rotten Mush which Dried Shroom does not have. The argument is that two items share the same Japanese name. May I direct your attention to Mr. E (Paper Mario) and Mr. E (Mario Party Advance). Are they the same because they share the same english name? Things share names sometimes.
 * 5) Per Mario & Shadow2
 * 6) Different design and function. English names take priority anyway.
 * 7) So you want to merge two items made by different companies, with different functions, different appearances, and different English names? yeah no thanks per all.
 * 8) - While the Japanese name is the same, everything else is different, from the appearance to the effects to the fact that unlike Dried Shroom, the Wilt Shroom isn't the worst mushroom in its game, being surpassed by both the Rotten Mush and Moldy Mush (the latter of which has the same function as Dried Shroom - recovering 1 HP). Having a separate article makes more sense and is better for searches than bending over backwards to merge this harmless little page.
 * 9) Per everyone.

Comments
It's not that English names don't matter, but Japanese names have priority in these cases. And the fact that the HP recovered is different means nothing, as shown with Fresh Pasta Bunch.
 * It's not just the names (though they're still a good argument as to these being the same thing), but these also fill the same role (shriveled old mushroom that barely restores any HP), and the Paper Mario series is notably influenced by Super Mario RPG. Binarystep (talk) 06:44, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I know Paper Mario items change effects from time-to-time, and that this is even more likely since it's from Super Mario RPG to Paper Mario, which is why I wasn't sure if it was that good of a point. I still think the very different appearance counts for something. -- 11:20, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Super Mario RPG has a pretty different artstyle than Paper Mario, though. Binarystep (talk) 20:10, 7 September 2015 (EDT)

@Shadow2 I don't see how one having a counterpart proves they're different. Honey Syrup in Super Mario RPG has Royal Syrup as a stronger variant, but the Paper Mario version doesn't, does that make them different? They even look different, Honey Syrup being red in Super Mario RPG and yellow in Paper Mario. Also, the Japanese names are the original names, while the English names are created by the translators (who don't create the games themselves). Binarystep (talk) 22:40, 7 September 2015 (EDT)

Would this be as contested if Woolsey kept the name Dried Shroom for the American release of Super Mario RPG? Because that seems to be the case with the Syrups. It's pretty much the same scenario otherwise. But why is it that some seem hung up on the fact that the English names are different? That really shouldn't matter if the Japanese names are the same. Sometimes there are translation errors. And sometimes a translator will deliberately change a few things to make it sound better. Since the translator was Ted Woolsey, who is the Trope Namer for the latter, it really could be either. Plus, the Paper Mario games carried several things over from Super Mario RPG, including Heart Points, Flower Points, and the Mushrooms and Syrups that refill them. There's no way this could just be a weird coincidence, considering the similarities of the two items. I think someone in the oppose section said something about looking into these things too much. Well not everything is just spelled out for us, unfortunately, and this is a fairly obvious conclusion. Maybe it's me, but I just don't see what else is holding us back from merging the articles. Someone brought up that the design was different and that the amount of HP healed was different, but those are dismissible, as A. Things change design all the time. It doesn't make them new; it just means they have a new design. And B. The change in points restored is changed occasionally, as I have already mentioned. I just can't think of any other reason to keep these articles separate.
 * Just throwing this out there, but doesn't the fact that Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario are made by different people actually help my case of these being the same item? It makes sense that Intelligent Systems would translate the item's name differently than Square. Binarystep (talk) 01:54, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * That's the problem, Magikrazy, you're making a lot of assumptions in this argument. Ted Woolsey possibly being wrong and very loose connections between Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG are not solid foundations to merge Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom. Sure, the Japanese names are the same, but merging on Japanese name alone makes for an inconsistent and therefore poor precedent. Plus, as I've stated in my oppose, the most similar cases are the syrups, but those share English names. I would be more supportive of a merge if the English names were the same, but they weren't, and combined with the existence of Moldy Mush and Rotten Mush, I think it's best to keep articles separate for the sake of organization and consistency. 16:52, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * First of all, thanks for responding to my comment. You make some valid points, and I did make quite a bit of assumptions. I do still feel somewhat torn on this issue due to similar Japanese names and function, though. I'm torn on this issue, and I'll remove my vote.


 * Where would this leave Rotten Mush? Shadow2 (talk) 02:17, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Rotten Mush is a seperate item altogether. It wouldn't be affected for the same reason Love Noodle Dish wasn't affected after the Fresh Pasta/Fresh Pasta Bunch merge. Binarystep (talk) 04:20, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Just like Wilt Shroom is a seperate item altogether. Shadow2 (talk) 16:42, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * That's circular reasoning. Niiue (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I just want to point out, unlike those examples you cited, Wilt Shroom and Dried Mushroom are from two different series. Paper Mario may have some nods to Super Mario RPG, but Super Mario RPG is more like a distant cousin. If Wilt Shroom and Dried Mushroom were in the same series, and if Rotten Mush and Moldy Mush didn't exist in tandem, it would be a stronger case for a merge, something I'd might support. But none of them are true, which is why I myself don't want it split. 23:48, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

@NSY: How are English names the priority? They're the priority with article names, but I don't remember a rule saying that they're the main priority when it comes to splits/merges. Besides, the English names are invented by the translators, who don't actually create the games in question. If a translator called Goombas "Shroomers" in one game, would that be a new enemy? On that note, Super Mario RPG was infamous for using different names for things than pretty much the rest of the series. (Yo'ster Isle, Shy Away, Sky Troopa, Goby, The Big Boo... the list goes on) Binarystep (talk) 04:25, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I feel that we've had this argument before. A lot of times. Including this tired "creator's intent" point. From Walkazo's point in the Cheep Chomp proposal: "splits on an English site based on different English names, when backed up by design and/or behavioural differences more significant than the likes of RPG enemy palette-swaps, is not silly". I sometimes think the translators make a good call when differentiating entities and you can't just disregard translators' intent as well. I don't think they would just change names around just for the hell of it in many cases. 16:52, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * How are Japanese names the priority? This is an English site, so why are we throwing everything out just because "Japan has it this way"? -- 10:32, 10 September 2015 (EDT)

@Marshal Dan Troop: How does it matter that they're made by different companies? I doubt Intelligent Systems was unaware of the existence of Super Mario RPG. Niiue (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * He probably meant that the games are from two different series despite the little hints at each other. 23:45, 9 September 2015 (EDT)

One major flaw here: an excuse for this merge is that "Super Mario RPG changed a lot of the names", well guess what? The Dried Shroom didn't appear until Paper Mario, which came out years after this game. He couldn't goof up the name, because there was no English name to go by. -- 10:14, 14 September 2015 (EDT)

There's a point I want to add somewhere here about Japanese names being de facto, but I don't really have a good conversation to bounce off of: you know how writers have editors? Editors are the guys that go through the writers' text and correct or comment on everything that they think doesn't work. It goes beyond spelling mistakes and factual errors; editors often make changes because they believe that what's in front of them won't work for the target audience, and the writer's too familiar with his work to realize that. More often than not, they're right. This may not always be the case, but they're editors because they know what they're doing. Point being, give the translators some credit.

Merge Wilt Shroom with Dried Shroom
They have the same Japanese name, nearly identical effects, and it'd be consistent with the other Super Mario RPG mushroom merges. As for them restoring slightly different amounts of HP, the same thing happened with both recurring syrups, as well as all three mushrooms.

As for the argument that Wilt Shrooms are different because the Paper Mario series doesn't have equivalents to Rotten Mush/Moldy Mush, that's like saying Super Mario RPG's syrups are different than their Paper Mario equivalents because Royal Syrup doesn't exist in that series. It's irrelevant.

Proposer: Deadline: September 3, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Given the existence of green Maple Syrup, "They look different" isn't really a valid argument. Especially when they look virtually the same (greyish/brownish more conical mushroom).
 * 3) Per mentioned consistency with other RPG items. If we're going by recovery amount differences, this varies all the time depending on the game; Super Mario RPG Ultra Shrooms even have more in common with Superstar Saga / Partners in Time Max Mushrooms since both recover all HP (and while separate in Japanese, have identical English names). I just don't see why the line is drawn here.
 * 4) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) They're different enough items to warrant this not being done. Despite having the same purpose, they are not the same entity. 1-Up Hearts and 1-Up Mushrooms the same in all but appearance and name, but nobody would dare make a proposal to merge those, and for good reason; because they're different enough, by the different appearance and name.
 * 2) Y'all rely too much on a single name from a single language. Per all of the previous and current opposition.
 * 3) Per Walkazo on the original proposal.
 * 4) So you want to merge two items made by different companies, with different functions, different appearances, and different English names? yeah no thanks per all.
 * 5) Per original opposition and Chester Alan Arthur's comment.
 * 6) Personally, I think the English name difference alone is a valid reason to keep this article split. With there being three types of "useless" Mushrooms instead of one, I think that this Mushroom wasn't intended to be the precursor to the Dried Mushroom, but rather, the Dried Mushroom taking inspiration from the collective three "useless" Mushrooms and just condensing it into one. Also, the argument regarding Royal Syrup is pretty much a nonsequtitur. The Royal Syrup is a different type of item from the Maple Syrup because it's a stronger variant of the syrup, it's similar to hypothetically, the best Mushroom is called the Max Mushroom while the next game introduces a Golden Mushroom variant. For this, the Wilt Shroom here doesn't even restore the minimum amount of HP like the Dried Mushroom, with that honor going to the Moldy Mush. So, I just think this proposal is too much of a stretch for me to support.
 * 7) Per all, especially Baby Luigi.
 * 8) Appearance wise, it is not the same. And per all.
 * 9) - Per all.

Comments
@TheFlameChomp: So, how is this any different than merging Bad Mushroom/Poison Mushroom, Mid Mushroom/Super Shroom, and Max Mushroom/Ultra Shroom? Niiue (talk) 18:50, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

@SuperYoshiBros: So should the SMRPG Honey/Maple Syrup be split because Paper Mario doesn't have Royal Syrup? Niiue (talk) 19:28, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * You're bringing stuff up that they haven't even mentioned? 19:42, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, it is true I supported the other merges. However, I feel that the original opposers bring up some good points. -- 19:43, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * How is this situation any different, though? The main arguments against merging are the different English names and the fact that they're from different series, both of which apply to the previous merges. Niiue (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * These are different things that heal different amounts that come from completely different companines the idea that because they share the same Japanese name they must be the same in absurd. That' what the only similarity besides the fact that they heal an amount of HP.
 * Except there's precedent for this. Niiue (talk) 21:39, 20 August 2017 (EDT)

@TheFlameChomp: Again, what makes this any different than the last merge? Niiue (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I feel that in the original proposal, there was more supporting the merged than having the same Japanese names. For example, Bad Mushrooms and Poison Mushrooms are both poisonous, Super Shrooms and Mid Mushrooms both heal more than normal Mushrooms, but less than Max Mushrooms and Ultra Shrooms, which heal high amounts of HP. However, I feel the only similarities between Dried Shrooms and Wilt Shrooms is that they have the same Japanese names and are dried up. This is at least my opinion on this. -- 22:06, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * It doesn't help that these Mushrooms shared their same coloration as the ones they merged with, especially Bad and Poison Mushroom. 22:08, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I mean, Wilt Shrooms have the same shape as TTYD/SPM Dried Shrooms, so. Niiue (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * The shape doesn't really matter that much, since Mario series Mushrooms share a universal shape. What other way will they convey a dried Mushroom? 22:15, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * The way PM64 did it? Niiue (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Comparing the SMRPG enemies to this is entirely a false equivalence. The enemies were being compared to an entire franchise in which they've made multiple appearances in numerous forms, and whose visual design are obviously identical. Here, you're compared an item that appeared in one game to an item that appeared in three games. 22:49, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Wilt/Dried Shrooms have the same purpose as being useless healing items, the only real difference is that SMRPG has two worse variants. Niiue (talk) 22:11, 20 August 2017 (EDT)
 * And 1-Up Mushrooms and 3-Up Moons serve the same purpose as giving lives to the player, the only real difference being that one of them gives more lives. It's easy and meaningless to generalize like that. 08:04, 21 August 2017 (EDT)
 * False equivalency, those have way more differences than Dried/Wilt Shrooms. Niiue (talk) 14:39, 21 August 2017 (EDT)
 * But that's not what you brought up. You made a vague statement that offered no details as to the intricacies of each item while passing it off as something that perfectly defined both of them. I did much of the same. 14:59, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

@Chester Alan Arthur: If we have these split due to separate developers, why is Maple Syrup still on one article, despite looking different as well? 00:40, 21 August 2017 (CT)
 * Not particularly a fan of that, either, but at least that has the same name in both games (though perhaps the names in other languages only apply to one of the games). 08:04, 21 August 2017 (EDT)
 * From what I can tell, it has the same name between games in all languages, not just English. Niiue (talk) 08:19, 21 August 2017 (EDT)

Merge to Dried Shroom, mark III
I'm going to contest the previous proposals' failure a bit. The first one's was more understandable, as the wiki's coverage on mushrooms in general was vastly different than now, but I digress. Reasons they have failed include points such as "they don't look the same," "they restore different amounts of HP," "the different English name is enough to keep them split," "Dried Shroom is a replacement for all three dud shrooms." I'm going to go through this a little.
 * First of all, regarding appearance, Dried Shroom looks more like Wilt Shroom's artwork than any of the other mushrooms look like their respective counterparts. Not only do the colors differ on the upper two levels, the flat-capped, thin-stalked design of the SMRPG mushrooms is completely at odds with the SMB3-shaped Paper Mario ones. Dried/Wilt Shroom, meanwhile, stays a tall, thin, conical, dull brown mushroom.
 * Regarding the HP differences, again, the same can be said for the three "good" mushrooms. HP amounts in general are smaller in PM due to its simplified nature.
 * Regarding the English names, once more, the same can be said for Max/Ultra and Mid/Super. The games were localized by different people, though as PM started as a successor to SMRPG, the four mushrooms of the same lang-of-origin names and order of HP-restoration amounts is definitely intentional. The "Dried Shroom" name likely just plays into its relevance in Dry Dry Outpost in PM64.
 * Regarding its relation to the other trash mushrooms, so what? Having two even worse bad mushrooms when, due to the simplified HP amounts mentioned above, the amount this one restores is rock-bottom anyways, having further "dud prize" mushrooms is redundant. (As implied here, both are used as "dud prizes," be they by Knife&Grate Guys or Rip Cheato.) It's also kind of redundant to have four pages where we could more accurately have three, but I'm digressing a bit again. Convergent evolution is a thing we can acknowledge without needlessly separating things.

So no, it's not just the Japanese name I'm going off (even I don't support merging, say, Rotten Mush and Rotten Mushroom), but the shared role in a successor-type game (unlike the totally different roles in two completely unrelated games the aforementioned two items have).

Proposer: Deadline: September 15, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per
 * 2) Per Doc.
 * 3) Per proposal.