MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/62

Turn the Stafy article into a disambiguation
We apologize in advance for how long this proposal is, but we wanted to make sure we covered all our bases here... Y'know, for a disambiguation article. You'll see what we mean.

Stafy, probably, does not need a full article as a character. He does not directly appear in any Mario games as himself. But like, the current state of his "article" is not much better. It currently directly redirects to his given section of the Assist Trophy section, which would be fine enough if that was all there was, right? Stafy has only made a physical appearance in Smash Bros., it's another Smash Bros. thing, pack it in, chumps, we're done! Crisis averted, and we can all go home.

...But then, Starfish exists.

Yeahhh, this guy is weird. Starfish is implied in all but direct statements to be Stafy himself in sunglasses, prancing about in Super Princess Peach in multiple distinct levels, which is, indeed, a Mario game; or at least a game with Mario in it that we give sufficient coverage for. And he's not just some background cameo, either; he makes physical appearances, he's acknowledged by the in-game Bestiary, he's even mentioned in in-game hints telling the player about his secret presence! In fact, there's been a proposal in the past to just outright merge him with a formerly-extant Stafy page. Now, while resurrecting the old page just to merge this article into it feels like a bit too much (especially since that's really just a more roundabout rename at that point), it bugs us quite a bit that this article for a character we know is heavily based on Stafy, and is implied to even be Stafy, is just... an article you wouldn't come across if you had the gull to search "Stafy" directly, and you'd get shoved right to his Assist Trophy section instead.

And then there's Densetsu no Stafy 3. Yes, that's a blue link, and for good cause; one of the levels in that game is a crossover with Wario Land 4. Wario even physically appears in it, complete with his transformation gimmicks, which Stafy must readily exploit to solve puzzles and progress through the level! This is something we cover readily, since we've determined this is a substantial appearance of Wario. It's even got a Staff page. And besides, it's not like we haven't set the precedent before that crossovers like this that are for a full level are fine before this; just look at Rhythm Heaven Megamix or Sonic Lost World. And, again... You wouldn't find this if you just typed "Stafy" and had the gull to hit "search" or press your enter key, without hearing the advice of autocomplete first. It's only marginally less hard to find with autocomplete, to be fair, but it wouldn't shock us if people are flat-out unaware this exists because they did just type "Stafy" and not think twice.

That's two entire articles we have about Stafy, both of which are, indeed, worthy of coverage on our wiki (an entire enemy in a video game for the former, and a substantially important crossover in the latter), that you'd never even know were there if you simply wrote "Stafy". This isn't even getting in to the less substantial stuff, like, say, the Yoshi Theater cameo in Superstar Saga, or the List of Mario references in Nintendo games article's subsection, or even that one SMM1 level, because frankly, 3 is already enough as-is to us.

We re-iterate; we do not think Stafy needs a full article on his own, so please don't treat us like we're saying so, thanks to his lack of direct physical appearance in-game. Starfish comes close, but it's just a little too indirect and wishy-washy for us. However, we do think that making the Stafy article a redirect to Assist Trophy, blatantly ignoring the other two articles, is... a little too extreme, wouldn't you say? And it's not like we can't just append a "see also" to Stafy's section on the Assist Trophy article, or anything. So... What if we just didn't do either of those? That's right, you read the proposal name, we're finally about to say the line. We think Stafy should be a disambiguation article.

What should it disambiguate between? Well, here's our idea:
 * His appearance as an Assist Trophy up top, as it's his most direct appearance by far. It's what most people probably are thinking of when they search "Stafy" on the Mario Wiki, so it seems only fair.
 * Starfish, in the middle; being an important, albeit indirect, appearance. (This could maybe be the first one as it's the only cameo he has in a proper Mario game? But it's still fairly obscure, and he's not overtly called Stafy, so it could honestly go either way.)
 * Densetsu no Stafy 3, a game he appears in that features a prominent Mario (well, Wario) cameo that we have coverage of.
 * If we decide it's important enough to include for whatever reason, we could maybe mention the Yoshi Theatre or the List of Mario References or the Mario Maker level articles here. Probably only the References one if we include any of these, but it doesn't hurt to ask, right?
 * Either at the very end or right below the assist trophy, link to his article on the Stafy Wiki, just as a final little courtesy thing.

If, for whatever reason, you disagree with the "just a disambiguation" and feel he needs his own full article after this, that's fine, and we did put that as an option just in case that begins to prevail for whatever reason. However, we'd personally advise against it, because we don't feel like he's gotten quite that appearance that's more involved than brief cameos lasting only a stage/a few stages/an Assist Trophy just yet. But as for us, we feel like we've made our stance fairly clear that we could definitely bear to at least let readers know that there's a little bit more to Stafy than just his assist trophy.

Proposer: Deadline: May 15, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Convert to a disambiguation page

 * 1) - Per that very long-winded proposal about why Stafy needs a little bit more to his article, but not that much. There's a little bit more we could be pointing at than just an Assist Trophy; and while a full article feels excessive, a disambiguation page feels a lot more reasonable, and is readily expandable into a fuller article should the occasion (somehow) ever arise where that's necessary.
 * 2) I'm not entirely sure why this needs a proposal (let alone such a long one) but sure, per proposal (though the disambiguation should probably be called "Starfy" instead of "Stafy" since that's his official English name nowadays, and "Stafy" can be a redirect to it).
 * 3) A problem I have with the current coverage for Starfy and many other crossover characters that have multiple appearances is that the information about them is scattered across the wiki, but nothing helping you to find it. There's a lot here that could be talked about, but searching Starfy just redirects you to the Assist Trophy list which makes no mention of any of it. We've only recently started to address this problem by keeping the other Mario-relevant appearances on the Smash fighter lists. This is a good start but there's a lot more that needs to be done.
 * 4) I would be more inclined to make an article for Starfy on account of the Mad Scienstein article, but what really irritates me is that Starfish from Super Princess Peach is never explicitly stated to be Starfy, and could be just another member of Starfy's species, like Starly. Because the rest of Starfy's appearances not in his own series are very minor, I can see a disambiguation page with very brief descriptions of each of his appearances as working better; however, in that case, I'd prefer for the disambiguation to be comprehensive in listing Starfy's appearances in the Mario franchise, followed by Mario elements appearing in The Legendary Starfy series (since the only other case of this is Starfy himself being able to wear a costume based on Super Princess Peach). If anyone's interested, I've made a mockup of what the disambiguation could look like on my sandbox.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.

Convert to a full article

 * 1) I would also be perfectly fine with this, considering how much can talked about here even if none of it's coverage-worthy by itself.
 * 2) Second choice; per discussion in the comments below.
 * 3) Second choice; I wouldn't be against doing this either.
 * 4) - Per

Do nothing

 * 1) I don't like disambiguations for a single character. The only reason an individual character should ever have a disambiguation page would be for multiverse counterparts. Disambiguations serving to link to the character on list pages are the problem I have with Smash Wiki's disambiguations. And we're cutting down on Smash content, so it's best not to recreate pages on non-Mario Assist Trophy characters.

Comments
@Hewer: The reason the proposal is so long is, well, we effectively had to cover every apperance Stafy made in Mario-adjacent media, and then explain why we think it's fair enough that there's an article for that, but Stafy himself doesn't really warrant an article. As for the whole Starfy/Stafy thing, that's admittedly force of habit on our part; but now that you've brought it up, yes, we'd probably go with Starfy, as that's the most recent English name for him, with Stafy being a redirect. 10:30, May 8, 2023 (EDT)

Consider, if you will, how Mad Scienstein is handled. It seems relevant here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:05, May 8, 2023 (EDT)
 * That's... A really good point, actually. Mad Scienstein is unequivocally considered fine enough to have his own article, despite originating from a non-Mario game under a name that got localized vastly different here in English. If nothing else, that's more than a sound reason to us to give Starfy something more than a redirect to Smash and nothing else. Don't know if we're on board for a Starfy article yet, but we can't blame anyone if our treatment of Scienstein sways others. 14:11, May 8, 2023 (EDT)
 * I really don't see how Scienstein is relevant here, seeing as unlike Starfy, any of his individual crossover appearances would have been enough for full article coverage on their own. 12:54, May 9, 2023 (EDT)
 * From what we'd assume; Mad Scienstein debuted in From Whom The Frog Bell Tolls, and later cameo as an enemy in Wario Land 4 before appearing elsewhere as cameos. Starfy debuted in... well, Stafy, and then made a cameo as an enemy in Super Princess Peach and made cameos elsewhere--though notably, a good chunk of those cameos were before Super Princess Peach, not after. Both also have different names in their appearance as an enemy (Arewo Shitain-hakase -> Mad Scienstein, Starfy -> Starfish). 13:10, May 9, 2023 (EDT)
 * Actually, Sceinstein was an enemy in Wario Land 3, with a slightly alternate design (presumably under mind control, as he's Rudy's main minion in Dr. Mario 64, which uses the same design). In Wario Land 4, Scienstein is a throwable object in the secret rooms, and has a design that harkens back to that of his initial appearance in For Whom the Frog Bell Tolls. Mad Scienstein in Wario Land 3 seems definitely the best comparison with Starfish from Super Princess Peach: an enemy that is implied or outright confirmed to be a character from a more obscure Nintendo game, except with a slightly different design and name (Mad Scienstein's Japanese WL3 name is Mad Shitain, as opposed to the Dr. Arewo Shitain he has in both WL4 and Frog Bell Tolls). 14:19, May 9, 2023 (EDT)

Move Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and other related species
(I made this proposal here and not on the talk page since this doesn't just affect the main Banzai Bill page but also the other species)

You may have noticed Banzai Bills are occasionally getting called "Bomber Bills" on occasion. At first, it seemed like either a strange case of censorship (regarding the LEGO sets) or a translation error (such as the English Mario Portal website). However, with The Super Mario Bros. Movie using this term now, I am heavily convinced that Bomber Bill is the new name. To explain, let me detail the history of Banzai Bill's renames.

LEGO Mario Sets In the LEGO Super Mario sets, the Boomer Bill Barrage set includes Banzai Bills for you to add to your sets. As the set's name suggests, they are renamed "Boomer Bills". Why the name changed is unknown, but as just2good mentions in his censorship video, the word "Banzai" is a Japanese war cry. Now this rename isn't the only case of renames as they refer to Parabombs as "Parachute Bob-ombs" which has yet to appear in a mainline game or a feature-length movie. The LEGO set incident wouldn't be the best reason to rename them since it seems like it was just a LEGO thing. LEGO doesn't like to dip its toes into military themes unless it's fantasy (Star Wars), likely being a case of aiming the sets toward a family audience. And then came the English Mario Portal.

English Mario Portal The Japanese Mario Portal website has the option to view certain elements of the page in English. The English localization on this website is intriguing, mainly because it took names from the Mario Encyclopedia, which also plagiarized the Mario Wiki. One of the odd things about it was the Banzai Bill translations. Their names are Bomber Bills. The Bull's-Eye Banzais are Bull's-Eye Bomber Bills. The Cat variation is Cat Bomber Bill. However, Gold Banzai Bill and Mad Banzai Bills are not localized yet.

Now this website isn't perfect; there are some errors and kinks in terms of translations, and at that time, the term Bomber Bill had not appeared. But what was interesting was that it was somewhat a combination of the word "bomb" and "boomer", like the LEGO sets. That is particularly strange, but it wouldn't suggest a rename. Well, that is until now.

The Super Mario Bros. Movie '''Now this section will contain spoilers. If you have yet to see the movie, I strongly suggest you do. It's a decent flick and does a proper job of adapting the Mario games into a story, and it does lack some of the severe flaws in other Illumination films.'''

In this movie, Bowser is about to launch a giant Banzai Bill onto Peach's Castle. But here's the riveting thing; Bowser says, "Launch the Bomber Bill and DESTROY THE MUSHROOM KINGDOM!!" Woah, what?! Bowser just used the term "Bomber"! What does that mean? Well, the implications seem to be clear now. What seemed like censorship on LEGO's part or an odd translation goof on the Mario website, we now have a significant, full-length movie telling us it's a Bomber Bill. I didn't know about it until I randomly stumbled upon it on its page.

The goal of this proposal It's pretty clear what this proposal is about: Moving Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill and making similar, relevant changes to its subspecies. The short story, the Bill has recently been referred to differently in its last few appearances. It could be possible to join Podoboo and Swooper for pointless name changes. I don't know about specific arguments people could have for keeping the old name. However, the one possible side point I could hear is that Banzai Bill is in Super Mario Maker 2, and unlike other Mario enemies, Banzai was in effect for a long time. And that is true, but the recent attempts at not calling this thing a Banzai Bill piqued my interest here.

These articles will get these renames.: These articles will keep their names currently.:
 * Banzai Bill to Bomber Bill
 * Bull's-Eye Banzai to Bull's-Eye Bomber Bill
 * Cat Banzai Bill to Cat Bomber Bill
 * Gold Banzai Bill
 * Mad Banzai Bill
 * Banzai Bill Cannon

The reasons are that they have yet to get an English translation. If they appear in future games and have the name Bomber Bills, we still call the cannons Banzai Bill Cannons if they aren't named in-game. If a new name for them comes out (like Bomber Bill Blasters), we call them that in their appearances with Bomber Bills as we did with Paragaloomba.

Proposer: Deadline: May 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT Date withdrawn: May 18, 2023

Support

 * 1) Per proposal and The Super Mario Bros. Movie

Oppose

 * 1) I dunno, the name "Banzai Bill" has still been used fairly recently (like with Parabomb), and the movie is not 100% one-to-one with the games either. I'd wait until the games use "Bomber Bill" as well.
 * 2) I'd rather wait and see if at least one more game uses this name first, then I'll be more convinced Nintendo have settled on this as the new name.
 * 3) The Super Mario Bros. Movie actually has a few naming oddities like Blue Shell and Blue Mushroom, as well as calling the Tanooki Suit a Raccoon Suit. Lego Super Mario is also a bit of a stretch to use as evidence since it doesn't use Banzai Bill or Bomber Bill. Since we're yet to see this name in a source that doesn't have oddities like this, and the name "Banzai Bill" was still in use recently, I'd rather wait until the name gets used in more sources (preferably an actual game). I'll gladly support if the name ends up consistently getting used, though.
 * 4) - Per all, we'd definitely give it at least one more instance of Bomber Bill over Banzai Bill--preferably in an actual game--before we put it to a vote. Banzai Bill was still in use as recently as Super Mario Maker 2 and Dr. Mario World in 2019, after all. also we still call lava bubbles "podoboos" out of habit
 * 5) I'm with the "wait for the actual games to start using it" camp.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Oppose until it's used in a game.
 * 8) I heard Bowser call it the Banzai Bill in the movie.
 * 9) Not a regular occurrence and I think it's too early to make that call just yet.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) I kind of expected to see a proposal about this, but "Banzai Bill" has still been used fairly recently in games and I would prefer that it is used in the context of a game before changing it.
 * 12) Per all. We should only change it if the games started using the name Bomber Bill instead of Banzai Bill.

Comments
@Seanwheeler He definitely says "Bomber". 16:21, May 17, 2023 (EDT)
 * Nah, he said "Banzai." If he said "Bomber," I would have been confused. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:29, May 17, 2023 (EDT)
 * Oh, goodness, is this gonna be the next Yanny/Laurel? We haven't seen the movie/don't have plans to, so we can't vouch for one side or the other... ;p 01:04, May 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * Regardless of what they were called in the movie, as other people said the name change haven't been made into the games yet. Also, LEGO called them Boomer Bills, not Bomber Bills, which leaves the Japanese site translated to English as the last source for "Bomber Bills." This proposal doesn't have any ground to stand on. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:38, May 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * Oh boy, who would prevail: "Banzai" or "Bomber"? I have not watched the movie for the second time, so I don't know if ever I hear King Koopa utter banzai, or bomber. 05:28, May 18, 2023 (EDT)

I've seen the movie in theaters, the English version with Dutch subtitles to be specific. I'm pretty sure Bowser said "Bomber Bill", and I theorize that they were called "Bomber Bill" on the Mario Portal because of the movie. But regardless if he actually said "Bomber" or "Banzai", the movie still has several other inconsistencies that don't match one-to-one with the games (e.g. in the movie, Donkey Kong is Cranky's son, whilst in the games, he's Cranky's grandson). This is true for the names of several things as well, as Hewer stated before. So it doesn't really matter whether or not Bowser did call them "Bomber Bills", as the movie and the Portal aren't sufficient enough to rename the page of a character that's been used fairly recently and quite often. The most important thing is that we need to see the games themselves using said name, too, before we do anything. 06:20, May 18, 2023 (EDT)