MarioWiki:Proposals

 http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/9/9/17/f_propcopym_9045f2d.png A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code. Signing with the signature code (~) is not allowed due to technical issues.

How To
 * 1) Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
 * 2) Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 * 3) Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
 * 4) Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
 * 5) Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 * 6) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
 * 7) At any time a vote may be rejected if at least three active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
 * 8) " # " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 * 9) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
 * 10) All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
 * 11) There are two topics that cannot be decided on through a proposal: the first is sysop promotions and demotions, which are decided by Bureaucrats. Secondly, no proposals calling for the creation of Banjo, Conker or Sonic series articles are allowed (several proposals supporting them have failed in recent history).

The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: , 28 2024 (EDT)

Featured Lists
The discussion was going on over here about making a Featured List. The List over there is generally 100% complete, however since the lack of the text count and rules of our normal FA doesn't meet that standard, it cannot become featured. So, we were thinking of making a Featured List, which could make some lists such as Allies and what not to also become Featured. Some lists are well off completed, but haven't been recognised by users, such as Trophy Descriptions (SSBM) I still don't know what the standards of a Featured List would be, I want to hear other users opinions as well. So, with all that said, what do you guys think? Yes or no?

Proposer: Deadline: November 4th, 2008, 22:00

Create Featured Lists

 * 1) - Per myself.
 * 2) - As long as an organized standards system that works in accordance on some level with current featured article rules, I believe this could be a wonderful addition to the MarioWiki. So, per S-Y and my comment below.
 * 3) Per S-Y.
 * 4) - Per S-Y. However, there aren't that many Feature-worthy lists out there, so perhaps the FLs should be an occasional substitute for FAs (i.e. 4 FAs and then an FL).
 * 5) - Per S-Y.

Comments
Well, here's some standards you may like:
 * The lists must be 100% complete, containing all required descriptions and images in order to reach such a status.
 * The lists must be organized it a tidy manner, be it through a table, template, or any other means.
 * The lists must contain at least 1,000 bytes of information original to the MarioWiki, thus making the Super Mario Wiki seem more official. -- (In other words, so it doesn't look like we're just copying and pasting lists.)
 * The lists must be composed in a well-written manner. Grammar must be as correct as possible.
 * The lists must be of adequate size (10Kb?). In other words, a list pertaining to all the items in Paper Mario would be likely insufficient, but a list pertaining to all items in the Paper Mario series would be sufficient, as long as said list were to meet all of the aforementioned requirements.

Just a thought.
 * Sounds good. Just a little bit more, and this should be good to go.
 * Agreed.
 * Walkazo: That's actually a really good idea.
 * Yea, awesome idea.
 * Thanks! -

Removals
''None at the moment.

Kirby's forms
Compared to other SSB contestant pages, Kirby's article is too long because of his Forms list. I feel we should give his forms a separate page to equal it out. But i can't do it without your permission. So what do you guys think? New page or same page?

Proposer: Deadline: November 8th, 2008, 20:00

Create New page

 * 1) - Per myself.
 * 2) - There are too many different Kirbys. If more important information is to be added, the article would be way to big.

Leave it as it is

 * 1) Its part of Kirby's page. His forms are apart of him so it belong in his page. Plus we have a proposal to merge their SSB move to their page. (It like undoing the last proposal!!) Moving it is a big no no.
 * 2) - While Mario forms like Fire Mario are seperate from the main character articles, SSB info is secondary on this Wiki, so Kirby forms do not merit the same treatment.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) WTF! per all
 * 5) - 1. They would all be stubs. 2. That's unnecessary, especially when factoring in this Wiki's priority on Mario-stuff. 3. Kirby's page isn't too long. If you want to see long, go to Mario or SSBB - they're long.
 * 6) - We've really been trying to cut down our emphasis on Super Smash Bros. content (by merging, etc. rather than removing content), so this would be a step backwards.  I'm sure you didn't know that, so I'm sorry that so many people are against the proposal right now!!  However, this kind of proposal would do well on the two Kirby Wikis I know of!

Comments
Dom, I'm not saying I'm giving every form a separate page, but rather 1 page. And I'm not saying It's long, it's just longer than SSB contestant pages like Falco and Ganondorf.

Is this how you want it to look. Please see Here.

Changes
None at the moment.

Article Organization Standard
For quite some time now, we have given guidelines as to article formatting, but we have not set a single standard. This has caused many problems for the Wiki, including the conflicts over the formatting of the Mario and Daisy articles. Our previous formatting ideas came from the idea that certain sources were of a higher canon than others and thus should be separated from lower canon sources in the articles. This was detailed in Canonicity prior to its recent rewrite which removed that speculation. Unfortunately, that means that our primary article organization is based off of fanon. For example, our section on video game appearances is called “Biography,” implying that none of the sports spin-offs and alternate media sources “happened” in a character's life. Whether we believe this to be true or not, it is not the Wiki's place to make such speculation.

This presents us with a unique opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: if we establish a standard for article organization that is not based on speculation, the speculation will be removed from our articles AND the argument as to how articles should be organized will be settled.

I propose that we give each individual source a section of its own. Then, each section would be placed within its respective medium. We would have a separate section for video games, television shows, comics, the movie, etc. Furthermore, each of these sections would have subsections for each series. The central Mario platforming series would have a section, as would Mario Kart, Paper Mario, etc. For titles that do not fall into a series, they would be placed in a section called "Individual Titles" or some equivalent. Each of these sections and sub-sections will be organized by release date. So, for Mario, you would first have the video game section, which starts with the Donkey Kong series, then moves to the Mario series, and so on and so forth. However, when the events of a title has explicitly occurred prior to those released earlier in its section, such as Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island in the Mario section, it can be listed earlier. Another example would be Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins, which can be listed just after Super Mario Land.

For those who are confused, I am willing to make a mock-up of this concept. For those who still want to see the video game sources lined up in the way they currently are, please remember that Chronology was designed just for you.

Why does this idea benefit the Wiki?
 * 1) Removes speculation: Organizing by media and series is an objective concept that Nintendo often uses itself. Compare this to our current method: trying to organize events in the order that WE believe them to have happened, something that Nintendo has never done.
 * 2) Creates a standard: now that MarioWiki:Canonicity has been rewritten, we need a new standard. I also want us to have a standard that we all agree on, not one that a sysop back from the early days of the Wiki created before we had the proposals page.
 * 3) Frees us from having to connect storylines. If each appearance has a different section, we do not need to speculate and claim that "After doing this, the character did that," or worry about balancing the inconsistencies such as those between Yoshi's Island, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! and the Nintendo Comics System.
 * 4) Allows for expansion of alternate media appearances, such as those from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! It is very difficult to write about the entire series in a paragraph of a subsection in the alternate media sections as our current organization has us doing.

Proposer: (with input from Cobold, Blitzwing, Ghost Jam, and Rooben Stooben among others.) Deadline: November 3rd, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - My reasons are detailed above.
 * 2) - I think that the current way the articles are structured is rather random and not really official. The change is necessary.
 * 3) - Per Stumpers, all the way. This should finally help get articles in order – the way they should always be.
 * 4) - Per Stumpers.
 * 5) - Per Stumpers, he got inspired
 * 6) - Per all. This seems like a really good idea.
 * 7) - Per Stumpers. Less arguements and stuff are going to happen this way, and our wiki will be much neater and organized.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) - Per all, per all, per all. Period. The wiki will be greatly cleaned up with easy to access information when this proposal will be effect.
 * 10) Per Stumpers.
 * 11) Per Stumpers.
 * 12) This is a great idea and will really help with organization. Massive kudos.

Comments
Thanks, Tucayo, but I gotta give credit to the other sysops as well - it was really a group effort. I just nailed down the specifics.

I still think dividing the video games by individual series is too much. Yes, those of us who do want to see the strictly chronological order can look on Chronology, but you could just as easily say the people who want to see the series' history can look on the Series' Pages (i.e. Mario & Luigi (series)). Plus, casual Users and Guests may not know enough to go searching the MarioWiki pages; whereas the Series Pages are mainspace and (should be) linked to on the articles themselves. Even then, all the Chronology page gives us is a list, and if we want to find out about what Mario does from game to game, we'd have to go from game to game; whereas the Series Pages offer a bit more up front. Plus, it's not rocket science to figure out Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is the sequel to Paper Mario; so if someone did want to find out what Mario did in respects to the Paper Mario series only, they'd just have to scroll down the chronologically-organized biography looking for the "Paper Mario" titles. But it doesn't go both ways: as they are now, most biography sections don't include dates; and even if they do in the future, it's harder to look around for the first thing to come after "September 1993" than the next 3-D "Super Mario...". True, that's when you'd whip out MW:Chronology; but it seems like too much hassle for half of us just to spare the other half a fraction of the time and frustration. What I'm trying to say is that we already have the option to read history by series, and we always will, so what need is there for this extra step? I agree with the proposal otherwise, so I'm not voting against it - the Wiki needs change, just not that much. -
 * Something that I was considering while writing this proposal was that, even if this isn't the ultimate fix we find, it's a good one for right now. If you can think of a better way, please, PLEASE make a proposal.  We've been banging our heads trying to figure out how to not follow any fanon while still acknowledging the fact that the overall Mario series does appear to have a continuity within it, just not a very well defined one.
 * That's one thing that poses a big problem: Nintendo has confirmed absolutely no chronological order to their different types of media. This is one of the few tasks the MarioWiki that we have do to completely from scratch. I for one, think it's well worth it, despite any obstacles we may run across.
 * By organizing by series, we can free ourselves of any conjecture we previously had to make when we clumped all the video games together. Another method would be to list appearances by release date.  However, the downside of that is that you can't place past events from later released appearances earlier in the article.  For example, we know that Yoshi's Island came before Super Mario Bros., but we don't know how Yoshi's Island relates to Yoshi Touch & Go. Is it before, after, during, or an alternate timeline?  By dividing into Mario and Yoshi series, we free ourselves up from that.
 * MW:Chronology has already established that games explicitly set at certain points in time are exempt from the release-date-order (such as Super Mario Land 2: Six Golden Coins coming immediately after Super Mario Land; and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island being set before all other games), so couldn't that be carried over to the articles? As for the muddled Yoshi series, I don't think organizing by series would make it any easier than by date (for example, SMW2: Yoshi's Island is as closely elated to Super Mario World as it is to the later Yoshi titles, which confuses things further: where does one series end and the next begin?). Yoshi Touch & Go has no plot, but what can be gleaned from the gameplay suggests it is a "retelling" of Yoshi's Island, and can therefore be listed alongside said game, like how Super Mario 64 DS is incorporated with Super Mario 64 in MW:Chronology. Lumping the games together by series is invoking as much conjecture as going by release dates; and considering all the cross-series references and carry-overs, it would seem more likely Nintendo did not mean to divide the games like this. For instance, Bowser's crush for Peach was introduced in Paper Mario and then incorporated into subsequent games such as Super Mario Sunshine, which is part of the 3-D series begun before Paper Mario was released. For this reason, listing SMS before PM would be confusing, but necessary according to ordering by series and their seniority. Super Paper Mario also references series that come after Paper Mario started (i.e. the Sammer Guy Mustard of Doom named after Fawful of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga); though you could argue these are merely jokes for the player's amusement, and not as consequential as actual plot elements. -
 * Actually, Bowser's love for Peach was introduced in The Great Mission to Save Princess Peach and then in Super Mario Adventures (it could also be argued that The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! also used this concept when Bowser wanted to marry Peach, but it was largely for political reasons).  Examples of video games taking ideas from earlier alternate media are numerous, even when it comes to references and jokes for the player: the Pal Pills were a reference back to an item from Super Mario World television show episode "Rock TV" for example, and Nintendo of America openly embraced the idea of Mario coming from Brooklyn even after Yoshi's Island contradicted the Super Show's backstory.  However, since many users (including yourself) argued against the merging of video games and alternate media sources into one big appearances section, myself and the other sysops had to think of another solution.  You're arguing that video games should be blended together because each series is not presented as its own separate continuity with different characters, locations, and themes.  Yet, I can and have argued that video games and alternate media sources should be merged for the same reasons.  Remember when I implemented that idea into Mario and his parents' articles?  As you pointed out and I agreed, it was a mess of speculation.  You also forgot something about Chronology: it's designed for users to speculate on how the sources fit together.  So, here's my and the other sysops' logic: if placing sources together in a chronological order requires speculation (for example, can you cite me specific proof that says Paper Mario came after Super Mario 64?), then why should we do it?  We're here to write about official Nintendo material rather than to speculate about it, right?  So, how can we not speculate?  We must sort by an objective standard rather than a subjective one.  We must be able to clearly say, "This source fits this real world, non-fanon condition(s)."  Rather than, as you said, base our organization on what we "gleaned from gameplay suggests,"  One early idea of mine was to sort sources by date exclusively, and making the articles clearly historical from the point of the real world?  That was one of my first ideas, but it was denied.  What the sysops and I cooked up and I am now proposing is objective criteria, and it will organize those ridiculously long appearance pages.
 * I just wanted to apologize in case my above message seemed harsh or irksome. I reread it now, and it does seem a little arm-twisty.  So, anyone who read it, know that yes, I do believe what I said, but no, it wasn't fair to say it the way I did.  I'd like to give Walkazo credit for standing up for the removal of fanon with the Mario's parents article, and I'm very grateful for it.  Otherwise, I'd probably still be pounding away at articles, speculating like crazy trying to put all the pieces together.  So, thanks, Walkazo and I hope you weren't offended in any way!

This Proposal is like quantum physics - it's too confusing for me. If I understood it properly, I'd have my say in this. I am extremely dumb, but it's mainly because Stumpers is too smart...
 * You, good sir, are much too kind! But, if you can't understand it that means I wrote it badly.  Is there anything in particular you'd like me to clarify?  Is it just the reasoning for the change or would you like me to make a mock-up to show what the change will be?
 * Going back to the above conversation; to be honest, I did feel like I was being scolded for stubbornly arguing against your idea, Stumpers, but your apology was really nice - thank you! Anyway, I did find specific proof that there is some sort of inter-series continuum: FLUDD's video analysis of Mario at the beginning of Super Mario Sunshine. It first shows him jumping over Bowser in Super Mario Bros., then battling Iggy Koopa in Super Mario World, and finally him swinging Bowser around by his tail in Super Mario 64. I can't guarantee FLUDD showed the videos in the order that they occurred in the Marioverse, but it would make the most sense if it did, as computers use pretty standard organization principals (the other option would be alphabetical order, but in that case, SM64 would come before SM World); speculation aside, it still proves the three series coexist. And unlike most cross-series references, this is an actual plot device: it shows how FLUDD identifies Mario as a Koopa-fighting crusader worthy of its assistance. -
 * Aw... thanks for not being mad at me (I deserve it if you are). I've been pretty stressed out this week, so just know that I didn't mean to scold you, and that NO one, especially NOT you deserves that.  Again, I'm really sorry about that!  I'm nearly certain we can confirm that the main Mario series is definitely in a straight-shot continuity, with the two exceptions Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Land 2.  Reasons like the ones you mentioned and the continuity between the titles is pretty blatant.  Super Mario Bros. 2 (Japan) directly connected itself to be after Super Mario Bros. 1.  Super Mario Land would have taken place next by release date (and thus SML2 would come right after), which then explains Super Mario Bros. 3's storyline, stating that Bowser had been unactive for a very long time.  I'm not sure how official it is, but many users have told me that Super Mario World is apparently the bros. going on a vacation to celebrate the returned peace in the Mushroom World.  You can see, there's no down time in the story, really.  Then, after that they brought in the spin-off Super Mario Kart and the explanation of Mario's birth in Yoshi's Island.  A lot more spin-offs and real world time passed before we got our mitts on Super Mario 64.  It's between World and 64 we first start getting this messy video game continuity: the games with a storyline come out with much greater time between them and more spin-offs happen, none of which connect themselves directly with the plot of the others (but you should know, I totally think they are part of the continuity personally).  So, what I'm saying is this: the part of the continuity we KNOW is set in stone is the main series video games.  Their storylines always spell out the context, even if it's just connecting back in various ways (Sunshine showed that Mario remembered Luigi's Mansion and that F.L.U.D.D. knew of his past exploits.)  And, I would further argue that the RPG series is married at the hip as well, which itself is a straight shot continuity between SMRPG, Paper Mario, M&L, PM2, etc. as well.  Elements have spilled over greatly, and have established that they are part of the main series continuity (Kamek remembers Baby Mario and Luigi, Beanish characters in PM2, etc.).
 * So, what my message here is this: I myself am of the theory that MarioWiki:Chronology is the closest thing we can get to a continuity, and I stand by it. I would like to stress that article organization and continuity don't necessarily have to go together.  We may find it more advantageous to sort by series, we might not.  In any case, if this doesn't work out as well, rest assured the sysops and myself will keep trying to find a better way, and I'll be looking to you, Walkazo.  Thanks for all your help on the Wiki!

Response to Stumpers, from Dom: Well, one thing that makes it confusing is that this is the biggest, wordiest proposal I've ever seen - there's so much to try and take in. And the huge amount of comments here proves it must be pretty complicated. I think I would get this if you made a mock-up of what the changes would be - I am a visual learner so yeah. Although I'll admit that I still look at the Proposal and it goes over my head. It would be great if you could demonstrate the changes... Man, I feel really dumb.
 * Sure, I'll work on it. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it to you before the weekend is over, though, because I'm super busy from the Saturday morning on. :O
 * In that case, I'm going to wait until I see the mock-up before I say anything else; a picture's worth a thousand words, after all. One thing is bugging me, though: italicization. So far, the game, show and movie titles are being italicized, but not the comics, which, according to this, is wrong. If we're already going to be reworking most articles for the new policy, I think it would be a good opportunity to address these sorts of trivialities as well. Anyway, pertaining to your earlier response, Stumpers, you're being far to kind; we all make mistakes and holding you to one slip-up you immediately apologized for would be wrong. -
 * Okay, here's the mock-up. You'll notice two changes if you're very familiar with the article that weren't outlined in my proposal.  I moved some text that didn't call on a particular game, such as relatives, implied birth, etc. to the top of the page.  If you guys wanted to use the introduction to give an overview of the character which could connect games, etc. together in MarioWiki:Chronology order, I don't think anyone would mind.  We need more information up there anyway, and that would allow you to talk about anything that is lost through this layout rather than the chronological one (such as Peach's birth).  The second change is that I removed an image that was making the article look messy with the new headers... not much of a change, but I still felt obligated to note it.  And Walkazo: you're absolutely right.  We should adopt that (proposal time?).

Youtube Poop
This is a very urgent proposal I've been waiting to make for a long time. It regards the "Youtube Poop" video remixes on Youtube, and the prominence of Hotel Mario and Mama Luigi in them. I have tried multiple times to insert information about YTP into these two articles, but it has been continually removed and I have been told to make a proposal on it. Those who have been removing the YTP information inserted by me and others claim that it is not suitable for this wiki because it is Unofficial and Fan-made. However, we have a page for Sightings, which certainly are not official, except for "Sightings" in other Nintendo games. "Mama Luigi" and "Hotel Mario" are two of the most Well-known and commonly used sources for Youtube Poop videos. They have Thousands of YTPs in their name, and are Synonymous with the phenomenon. In addition, the tone of the Hotel Mario and Mama Luigi articles, as well as the articles on all similar works, are written in a tone that Puts them on the same level as "Official" Mario titles, in an entirely serious manor, discussing the subjects of Well Known YTP memes without even alluding to the phenomenon. I would like to have this seen into so that we can fix these two articles and add Youtube Poop Content. Thank you.

Proposer: Deadline: November 9, 2008, 15:00

Oppose

 * 1) This is a site of offical site of the Mario series. We don't not state fad on article because it consided fanon. And fanon is false information made by the fans. Those videos are offical like you have stated if Nintendo have made those video they'll might be officla since the own all of the Mario Chatartes in the series. So what if the have a little Mario elements in those videos their still conside fanon since they are user made with make it 100% fanon.
 * 2) - Firstly, YTP is nothing but pure fanon. Nothing more, and nothing less. We do not allow fanon on this site, only official subjects. Your comment about the Sightings being fanon because they are not directly linked to Nintendo is false; the references are within official games, literature, music, television, and films, because they were created by official companies. All companies linked to Nintendo are official, all companies not linked to Nintendo are official. YouTube is not an official company; YouTube is a community that accepts all sorts of material: official and fan-made. YouTube is not a great source to get official information because of this. YouTube Poop is directly linked with YouTube. Why? Because the members of that unofficial community created it out of their imagination. Implementing unofficial work into articles that are official is barbaric in all senses. I believe the only chance YTP has at getting on this wiki, is to be implemented into the Online references page – and even that may not be possible.
 * 3) I agree with both of the above voters.  However, I would like to specify and clarify something: the references pages are for professional content, either licensed or simply parodies.  Fan creations such as those on Newgrounds, YouTube, or those posted on fan-sites, are not professional.  Also, you said, "the tone of the Hotel Mario and Mama Luigi articles, as well as the articles on all similar works, are written in a tone that Puts them on the same level as "Official" Mario titles, in an entirely serious manor."  Big question I have with that is, why shouldn't we?  Would you want us to be humorous and unprofessional instead?  It seems that your logic is, since YouTube Poop uses the content and YTP is humorous, why aren't our articles humorous and unprofessional?  I recall when this issue came up on Hotel Mario, you thought we should both have YTP information on the article, and that we also should tone down the seriousness of it.  I see now why you think that: you think Hotel Mario and other such sources are "unofficial" (yes, that's in your proposal).  You need to realize that all the content we cover is official Nintendo content with the exception of the reference pages.  The comics, TV shows, endutainment, and CDi titles were ALL licensed by Nintendo.  Official Nintendo permission was given to the publishers.  Since Nintendo gave its approval, just like it did with the games you consider official, we are going to continue to cover them with the same amount of respect and completeness, even if that means there is no place in them for YouTube Poop and other fan creations.
 * 4) ...Per All.
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6) Per All,If we make a list of all Youtube poop that has Mama Luigi or Hotel Mario ect.It's like having to make a list of everything on the internet that has unofficial Mario stuff.(Mario Flash cartoons,Hacks,ect.).
 * 7) Per all, hmmm... *is going to delete that Rainbow Road song article*
 * 8) Booster - Per all. There's waaay too many unnofficial references to Mario out there. Anyone with a computer and an imagination can make one. Only references made by proper companies are worth noting, since professional people went out of their way to reference Mario in their work, be it a TV series like The Simpsons or a professional web-toon like Seth MacFarlane's Cavalcade of Cartoon Comedy.


 * 1) Per all. I think this is just to plain stupid. Come on, man. I mean YouTube Poop?!?!? How come people get so desprite to make stupid articles about stuff that is just is for entertamint. It's not realy soposed to be taken as real!!! Can we add this to BJAODN?

Comments
As I stated earlier: even this might be a stretch, but the only possible way I could see getting YTP on this wiki is to put it here.

EXACTLY. ALL of those things mentioned on that page are UNOFFICIAL and FAN-MADE. What makes YTP any different from them? Also note: a search for "Hotel Mario Youtube Poop" on youtube returns OVER 7000 RESULTS, and a search for "Mama Luigi Youtube Poop" returns OVER 10,000 RESULTS, and those are just the videos that explicitly label themselves as such. There are many more Hotel Mario and SMW poops than that. I think that's pretty notable.

No matter what it is still fanon srsly. No there offical!!! (

OKAY, then, by that logic, you're saying we should delete all of the references pages?
 * Moleman: Duh. That's why I gave you a link to the page. And, it doesn't matter how popular, nor does it matter how notable you believe they are – they aren't official. That's why I gave you the link to that page. The rest of the reference pages are official, because they come from official media.

No there offical not fanon. If there were then the SysOp would of eased it.
 * Companies made them user mank them offical. If a user for youtube made a video (Like the Super Mario Z junk) it conside fanon on this wiki.

The number of results from a given search does not make it any more official. Notability is one thing. Officialness is quite another.
 * Yup. (Not if it even past 1,000,000,000,000 it still fanon.)
 * If we used notability, we wouldn't be including information on characters like Bowser's Sister.
 * I think I should just change my vote to say "Per Stumpers". (Kudos.) I also agree with what Phoenix Rider said. If someone were to type "Mario Party 9" or "Mario Golf Wii" into Google, and received 10,000+ hits, would that make it "official"? No. It would make it notable that people want it, not official because people say it could happen or because they made a fan-based version of it.
 * They rumors. Which is also fanon like Paper Mario DS and Super Princess Daisy.

A: You say that the references pages are only for "professional content", that is predjudice. On the internet referances page, you cover the Mario parody made by Seth McFarlene, and since that and YTP are both made under the same circumstances on the same site, what makes them any different? B: Hotel Mario is no more "official" or "canon" to the Mario series than the cd-i Zelda titles are to the Zelda series. It was only Liscensed by Nintendo, they nod no involvement in making it, and it is NOT considered canon to the franchise. Neither is the SMW show or any of the other liscensed material covered here. C: What I mean when I talk about the articles on such things being written too seriously, look at the Mama Luigi article. THE IMAGE IS NOT THE PICTURE OF LUIGI SAYING "That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario!" and you go over the plot summary as if it was as canon as Super Mario World the game. The Mario cartoons were nothing more than a shameless and poorly made attempt to cash in on the success of Mario, and the ONLY reason Nintendo liscensed the characters to them is for MONEY. But, now in modern times, they have found a new audience and found a new place in culture, thanks to Youtube Poop, otherwise they would be forgotten. And yet you still refuse to even mention it, yet you have articles on CHARACTERS WHO ONLY APPEARED IN ONE EPISODE OF THE SERIES.

How is that fair?
 * Characters who only appeared in one episode deserve to be mentioned, cause theyre official. St00by also said the closest YTP will get is on the online references page aswell.

No matter what you say about youtube poop is still fanon, fanon and more fanon. Also per S-Y
 * Moleman: 2 of your 3 points are entirely invalid. Point A) That's why I gave you the link to online references and said that it might go there. Point B) Nintendo gave those companies the licensing and all the necessary permission to use Mario in Hotel Mario. If Nintendo gave the permission, it is official. Whether there is no canon or not is entirely debatable as there is not proof of canon in almost all Mario games. Point C) Articles are to be written professionally no matter what. The image of Mama Luigi is there because it is the most notable scene in that episode; not because it's funny.

He changing the subject every time no matter what (Unless Nintendo was invole in it) youtube poop is fanon.

Moleman, put it at this if we put a list of all the Youtube poop that has to do with Mario and put it in the References page it will load too long and basically make people mad and it will be hard to edit the References page.

Plus that it could the page freeze on old computures.

Thanks, Stooben. I thought your point above was good to, and I'll just say, per Stooben in that case. I'd like to clarify something however: Moleman is NOT suggesting we list every YouTube Poop as I understand it. Rather, he wants us to acknowledge their existence. Now, Moleman, you said that you feel that way because the shows, etc. were just cash-ins with no cultural impact, and that their popularity and worth are now increasing because of YTP. I'd like to suggest that you are likely somewhere between 10 and 16 if you feel that way, and/or you didn't have (cable) TV when you were growing up. Had neither of these conditions been true, you would know that to the enormous number of people who at the time were children saving Princess Peach for the first time in Super Mario Bros., the television shows were big. As time went on, they declined in popularity and impact, yet Super Mario World played a major role in the Mario series as a whole. Just because you didn't experience the television shows and the CDi titles when you were first becoming interested in the series doesn't decrease their worth. The shows are still selling very well on DVD considering their age, remember. This is actually a big problem in all Nintendo series today: many gamers who weren't gaming during the NES or SNES days (myself included for the NES) believe for some reason that a substantial amount of official material cannot be canon for some reason or another. However, since immersing myself in the old shows, comics, etc., I've discovered that there are only a few contradictions, usually on par with the contradictions made between video games.

"Look at the Mama Luigi article. THE IMAGE IS NOT THE PICTURE OF LUIGI SAYING 'That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario!' and you go over the plot summary as if it was as canon as Super Mario World the game. The Mario cartoons were nothing more than a shameless and poorly made attempt to cash in on the success of Mario, and the ONLY reason Nintendo liscensed the characters to them is for MONEY."

'''LOOK AT THE Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time ARTICLE. THE TRIVIA IS NOT SAYING''':"Due to the fact that the Shroob invasion is not remembered by any characters, even Toadsworth, the invasion may not have actually been intended to happen in the past. Since E. Gadd's memory was actually rearranged by the events taking place in the past, the Shroobs may have actually been attacking the present, but been sent to the past by the time holes made by E. Gadd's time machine." '''AND YOU GO OVER THE END OF THE ARTICLE AS IT WAS AS CANON AS THE OTHER RPGS. PiT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN A SHAMELESS AND POORLY MADE ATTEMPT TO CASH IN ON THE SUCCESS OF MARIO AND THE only REASONS Nintendo LISCENCED THE CHARACTERS TO ALPHA DREAM IS FOR MONEY brrrrrraggHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

I HATE THAT GODAMN GAME, article is too serious. '''LET'S INCLUDE ALL THE INTERNET PARODIES, OUT OF PLACE SNARKY REMARK AND EVERY CRAP WE CAN FIND. '''

I really recommend reading this before you makes anymore assumption about that "canon" thing. --Blitzwing 06:58, 3 November 2008 (EST)
 * Moleman, please remain civil and try to refrain from cursing. It's a proposal: it's nothing to get so upset about.

Yeah, Blitwing is right. Please read Canonicity. If we only treated games you consider worthwhile, that would be very complicated: soon every user would have a different list of games we should be covering with seriousness. Can you imagine how unfair such a system would be?

I am not asking to actually change the existing content of the articles in such a manner. What I'm trying to say is, like, in the case of Hotel Mario, that game IS widely considered poor, non canon, and a discrace to the mario series like the CD-i Zelda Titles. THE WAY THAT THE GAME IS TREATED WHEN TALKED ABOUT IN THAT ARTICLE ONLY Seems out of place when it is the only content of the article. If I had my way with the article, I would keep everything that is already there intact and add a "reception" section that adresses the poor reception to the game and its cutscenes and diologue, and of course Youtube Poop. Same with the Mama Luigi article. And as for the page of internet references, I KNOW THAT I CAN'T SIMPLY ADD A SECTION FOR YOUTUBE POOP TO IT AND LEAVE IT LIKE THAT, because it lists so few things as it is, and leaves out many, many OTHER, non YTP Fanworks.

The way I would see fit to adress this is to CREATE A STANDARD FOR FAN FICTION based on prolificness and popularity for inclusion on the references page, and would need the help of many users to do so. Seeing as how hard this would be, I would prefer that we ADRESS FANON IN ARTICLES IN TRIVIA AND/OR RECEPTION SECTIONS, SEPERATE FROM THE MAIN CONTENT, which I would do with Mama Luigi and Hotel Mario. I would not want to list EVERY internet parody, only the most popular ones that have a fanbase.

ONLY GAMES THAT ARE PUBLISHED BY NINTENDO ARE CANON. Games liscensed to other companies and other-media spinoffs are OFFICIAL, but not CANON. The reason I am aggravated about this is because you cover ALL of these things on the same level of maticulous detail and disregard for notability and importance that you do with the canon games, yet YOU REFUSE TO EVEN MENTION YOUTUBE POOP OR ANY OTHER FAN-MADE WORK, even if it's seperate from the "official information".

Okay, I may not have been clear enough in what I said before. I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE THE EXISTING CONTENT OF ARTICLES. I want to ADD real-world content to the articles, to BALANCE the ridiculous level of detail in which official content is covered, About the REAL-WORLD reaction and legacy to the them.

Rather than try and change our stance, it would be much better for you to start your own Wiki that covers the fan-made (fanon) additions to the Mario series. It seems like you believe we hold the entire Mario series sacred. However, you'll notice that we have a section called "Critical Reception" on a bunch of the game articles, and that is for you to post professional critic reviews about the titles, the movies, etc. It's not good enough to just say that generally the fanbase believes something to be poor and non-canon. That's just another way of saying "I believe something is poor and non-canon." Generalities are the bane of unbiased writing. We're striving to make the most professional encyclopedia possible, and to do that our writing must be unbiased. And please, try to understand: there is no official canon in the Mario series, so no title can be non-canon.

@Moleman: Closing your ears and shouting "NAH NAH NAH NAH NOT CANON!!! NAH NAH NAH" doesn't put you in a good light. Neither do RANTING IN ALL-CAPS AND BOLDING IT SO IT'S EVEN MORE OF AN EYESORE.

Finally, I'd like to point we're merely an encyclopedia about the universe of a fat Italian plumber, and that you should just relax. --Blitzwing 15:43, 3 November 2008 (EST)

Moleman is right in a sense. Homstar Runner isn't nessecarily offical, but it's on the Sightings page anyhow. But, come on Youtube Poop? Sheesh, gimme a break. Plus, even if the proposal passes(which it probaly won't), it would take forever to make such an article. I agree Mama Luigi and Hotel Mario are common sources for Utoob Poop, but that doesn't mean it deserves an article.


 * Slightly changing the subject here: could it be possible to add the YTP (only the major ones: Mama Luigi, Hotel Mario, etc.) to the Online references page? I was thinking it might be able to, but I hardly ever edit those pages, so I wouldn't know.
 * I could see making a section on Internet memes... provided we'd have to dig deep down into the YouTube Poop community for the person who started it, his/her motivation, etc. It would be a very hard section to write, as Internet memes as minor as these aren't documented very often (compare to Numa Numa, which made it into Newspapers, for goodness sake).  WHOA!  Here's a solution for Moleman: if you can find us an article (from a respectable fansite, professional website, or in print) that acknowledges YouTube Poop, bring it to us.  That would change the issue considerably.
 * Thanks! Yeah, that would take a lot of work. I'll try to research as much on YTP as I can. Also, pertaining to Stumpers' last comment, if you were to find a page on a professional website, it could change the odds of your proposal considerably. ("Could" being the operative word there.)