MarioWiki:Proposals

Either restrict usage of or don't use NTSC or PAL on articles
It's common knowledge to mention regional differences between versions of the same game across the globe and there's nothing wrong with that. You know what is, though? Using the terms "NTSC" and "PAL" when it actually wouldn't really apply that well in the first place.

First of all, NTSC and PAL would really only apply for the older (analog) TV sets back in the day. Newer HDTVs don't really use the analog NTSC or PAL video standards anymore, instead going for digital standards like ATSC, ISDB or DTMB, for example.

Second of all, NTSC and PAL are mainly used to denote which video standard is used for TVs, not so much for video games (except for rare cases in which the content is exactly the same as the American version, where the only difference is game speed thanks to the PAL format in question).

Not only that, but several people are still insisting on using NTSC and PAL for certain cases when it really wouldn't make sense (for example, this revision of the Shifty Shrine article). This needs to change.

I'm proposing to replace either any or most instances of "NTSC" or "PAL" for video game regional differences with "American English" or "British English" whenever mentioned in articles. My reasons as for why are as follows:
 * The Game Boy, DS and Switch systems are region-free, meaning any game can work on any regional system.
 * Most translations into American and British English are basically almost identical (e.g. Kirby: Triple Deluxe, Mario Party 8, etc.). There are the rare few (Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U, The Legend of Zelda: Tri Force Heroes, for example) that are completely different in many ways.
 * For the most part, only Europe, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand use the PAL standard for older video game consoles (before the Wii U). Japan, China, Korea, the US, Mexico and Canada use the NTSC standard for those games. Stating the PAL or NTSC version for games whose releases are on newer consoles that use 1080p graphics (Wii U and Switch, currently) or on portable systems (Game Boy, Game Boy Colour, Game Boy Advance, Nintendo DS or Nintendo 3DS) is just inaccurate.

I foresee so many ways this proposal could go in these two weeks so I'm adding multiple options. These options could be the one with the most votes at the end instead of just one, so they are there just in case. If you guys have any suggestions for other options before the end of the first week, then that would be great. The currently available options at the moment are the following:
 * 1) Replace any instance of NTSC and PAL for video game regional differences with American English and British English, respectively. My preferred choice.
 * 2) Use American English and British English for articles that relate to games for the portable systems and the Wii U and Nintendo Switch, but use NTSC and PAL for everything else. My second preferred choice.
 * 3) Do absolutely nothing. I suggest that we do not pick this option under any circumstance.

Proposer: Deadline: "March 29, 2019, 23:59 GMT"

Option 1: Use the American English and British English terminology wherever possible

 * 1) My preferred option.
 * 2) I think this would simplify our life in the long term, taking us away from terms that are more and more losing usage and are problematic when used here even in the implied meaning of region due to Japan adopting NTSC as well, making the term NTSC region again an imprecise term
 * 3) After some thinking, yeah, maybe use this instead. After all, some of the newer users may be confused by the "NTSC" and "PAL" terminology, so it's best to inconvenience the least amount of users possible.

====Option 2: Use NTSC or PAL only for articles that relate to the older home consoles (NES, SNES, N64, GCN and Wii) / Use the British or American English terminology for handheld consoles, the Wii U and the Switch====
 * 1) Second preferred option. After all, NTSC and PAL only apply to the analog TV sets.
 * 2) NTSC/PAL is valid distinction for older home consoles.
 * 3) Second valid alternative, requires us less work and the older home consoles had effectively a PAL/NTSC-only output

Comments
From what I've seen, people don't say that they're "NTSC" or "PAL," but say "NTSC region" or "PAL region," which works as a shorthand way of denoting the regional split where differences tend to crop up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:43, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Uh, interesting. Never knew that until now (either that, or I never really saw that crop up that often). For the most part, whenever people mention it, they usually say "NTSC version" or "PAL version." – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 21:58, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, NTSC region and PAL region are barely used on this wiki, if at all. There's also the issue that NTSC is used in Japan as well, so I can see why NTSC region isn't really used that much.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:38, March 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * I've mostly sen it in regards to the original Luigi's Mansion, where it is a difference in-line with said TV parameter differences. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, March 14, 2019 (EDT)

I don't really see a need for this proposal, personally. If there's inaccurate terminology being used on the wiki, it should be fixed on a case-by-case basis. I'm sure there's cases where NTSC/PAL is accurate, cases where American/British English is accurate, and cases where neither phrasing would be accurate and something else would need to be used. -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 13:21, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * There's actually a need of this proposal since the usage of those terms stems from rules written in the glossary. Considering how NTSC and PAL output are at this point almost completely phased out, it makes sense to consider a revision or an update of the glossary.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:13, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

New features
None at the moment.

Remove information about Captain N: The Game Master + Captain Rainbow from non-Mario subjects
Currently, Coverage considers Captain N: The Game Master a guest appearance. However, for some reason, editors have decided that this means we should also cover appearances in the show of non-Mario characters that have crossed over with the Mario series in other more relevant media. Additionally, whenever Captain N is referenced as a subject's first appearance, it is mentioned as "Mario-related media", which I think is inaccurate based on our coverage policy, although this is only done on three articles, while the rest ignore the show in their infobox entirely.

This feels strange and outside the scope of our wiki, and doesn't make sense when Captain N's only relevance to the Mario franchise is that Donkey Kong and a few Donkey Kong Jr. enemies appear in a few episodes, along with the usage of Warp Zones. It's also inconsistent with how we cover other guest appearances; Densetsu no Starfy 3 is considered a guest appearance, but we no longer have an article on Starfy following our shift in Smash coverage. Nintendo Land and Nintendo Badge Arcade don't mention appearances of characters from other franchises on their articles. I did find two other exceptions; Little Mac and Takamaru's articles both mention their appearance in Captain Rainbow. Little Mac's article also mentions his playable appearance in Punch-Out!!, but that's kind of iffy in my opinion and should be saved for another time.

Therefore, I propose that coverage of Captain N: The Game Master and Captain Rainbow for subjects not originating in the Mario franchise be removed.

This would potentially affect the following pages:
 * Affected by removing any Captain N: The Game Master content (Options 1, 2, 3, and 4):
 * Dr. Light
 * Dragonlord
 * Ganon
 * Link
 * Princess Zelda
 * Ridley
 * Slime (Dragon Quest)
 * Affected by removing all Captain N: The Game Master content (Options 1 and 4):
 * Dr. Wily
 * Dracula
 * Mega Man
 * Pit (character)
 * Simon Belmont
 * Affected by removing Captain Rainbow content (Options 1, 2, and 5):
 * Little Mac
 * Takamaru

My apologies if this is confusing, I've accidentally made a sort of tangled mess here. Leave any questions in the comments and I'll be glad to sort them out.

Proposer: Deadline: March 23, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Remove all Captain N and Captain Rainbow information

 * 1) Per proposal.

Option 2: Remove Captain N information for characters that do not interact with Mario elements and Captain Rainbow information

 * 1) My second choice.

Option 3: Just remove Captain N information for characters that do not interact with Mario elements

 * 1) It is pretty harmless to mention a third party character's appearance in a third party game that we cover, as Mario characters appear in Captain Rainbow. As with Captain N I agree with not covering their appearances in episodes that are not Mario related however I do feel like we should still cover their appearances in episodes where they interact with Mario-related things. Per Glowsquid.
 * 2) My second second choice.
 * 3) I think this is the best option, as we sometimes still cover guest appearance-related subjects on their own articles; see Nintendo Village and Mario Chase as an example. But since Mario characters do appear in the show, I'd say removing all information would be counter-intuitive and have no real benefit. The Captain Rainbow information is also needed, I feel.

Option 6: Do nothing

 * 1) - I personally think it's Neat and harmless to have an aside saying among the lines of "oh btw this guy is in Captain N/Captain Rainbow/other weird crossover" as long as it doesn't go too in-depth. Furthermore, a good chunk of the characters listed in the affected article list do interact with the Mario-relevant elements of Captain N (see below) and those are interractions are perfectly within the scope of the wiki to describe, so unless that is ammended, I'll have to oppose anyway.
 * 2) Per Glowsquid.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per Glowsquid.
 * 5) Per Glowsquid.
 * 6) It is pretty harmless to mention a third party character's appearance in a third party game that we cover, as Mario characters appear in Captain Rainbow. As with Captain N I agree with not covering their appearances in episodes that are not Mario related however I do feel like we should still cover their appearances in episodes where they interact with Mario-related things, and as this proposal's options only account for completely exterminating information on third party character's appearances in Captain N, I have to fully oppose for now. Per Glowsquid.

Comments
fyi, even if this pass, I would strongy recommend against removing the Captain N info from the pages about the show's core cast (which is to say, Simon Pit and Mega Man) and Dr. Wily since they all interract with Donkey Kong at some point. Infact, one of the show's episode is about Simon Belmont getting knocked on the head, wake up thinking he's Donkey Kong Jr. and going out to find his "father". So yeah, bad idea. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:49, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

Per requests, I have changed the proposal to add an option to keep information about the characters who interact with Mario-related elements in the show. -- 15:15, March 16, 2019 (EDT)

Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 fiery counterparts
A while ago, I asked if "Fiery Gobblegut" is the name of the fiery version of Gobblegut found in Battle Belt Galaxy, and he said that the name is unofficial. Since it has also come to our attention that the fierier version of King Kaliente from Bowser Jr.'s Lava Reactor does not have its own separate article, I propose we do any of the following:  Split the fiery King Kaliente from King Kaliente. I strongly suggest doing this, as these versions of the bosses are actually more differentiable than the "X" bosses from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story and Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, which we already have split. Merge the fiery Gobblegut with Gobblegut. I strongly suggest not doing this, for the reasons listed above. Do nothing. I could not have opposed this any more. Allowing this option to pass would cause a horrible inconsistency that would worsen the quality of how we handle alternate versions of enemies and bosses.  Proposer: Deadline: March 24, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Option A

 * 1) My preferred option, for reasons already stated.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) I see no good reason to not split King Kaliente's scorched form, if the queen Hisstocrat is split from the normal Hisstocrat, and that the fiery Gobblegut is split from the normal Gobblegut.
 * 4) As long as the fire versions of the bosses that are called the same as their regular forms have a good identifier such as (fire) I am fine with this. Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Actually, it turns out that the "fiery" King Kaliente not only has a different Japanese name (「オタキング（黒）」, Black King Kaliente), but also its own , so I'm going to agree with the split.

Option B

 * 1) Secondary choice, per comments below.
 * 2) While a Prima guide is not a go-to, my secondary vote would be to merge the two Gobbleguts, as it is somewhat suggested that they are the same, even if the source is a bit iffy.

Option C

 * 1) As I said below, the secondary King Kaliente is no more different from the initial one than the recurring bosses in Super Mario 3D World, ie having different textures, acting slightly more aggressive, and being in a different place, which is not uncommon for recurring bosses in video games as a whole. That to me seems like splitting off every Boom Boom behavioral difference from New Super Mario Bros. U, or at least the intermediate and final Koopaling battles in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Perhaps even the different Birdo colors. The Gobblegut thing at least includes the addition of an incendiary exponent not present whatsoever in the initial fight, which cannot be said about King Kaliente. Additionally, the English title of the second Kaliente mission refers to it as the same entity, and I have not seen any evidence that the JP version considers them separate. Nor have I seen evidence that the Gobbleguts are definitively intended to be the same entity (particularly as, again, the "burning" thing comes straight out of nowhere.)
 * 2) Per Doc von Schmeltwick.
 * 3) Per Doc.
 * 4) Per Doc.
 * 5) Yeah, King Kaliente should not get split, per the English title card, King Kaliente's Spicy Return. Unlike Fiery Gobblegut, the second fight involves clearly the same character.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) I'll stick with this option for now as my primary vote.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all. The English title card implies them to be the same character, not unlike Knot-Wing the Koopa and the other Woolly World bosses who have multiple boss fights. And with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, we've seen multiple Gobblegut-like entities (well, technically statues), leaving a precedent for there to be multiple Gobbleguts.

Comments
While I'm not sure how to vote on this proposal quite yet, I'd like to point out that the mission name for the second King Kaliente battle is King Kaliente's Spicy Return. This seems to imply that King Kaliente is indeed the same character in both galaxies. -- 19:05, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * That's exactly what I meant to say in the Option C sentence. Same applies to Gobblegut, though. 20:02, March 17, 2019 (EDT)

Does the scorched Kaliente have its own JP name in any official source? The English mission name indicate's it's the same entity, while it is unlikely at best that Fiery Dino Piranha is the same entity as its counterpart. The JP mission title doesn't seem to indicate either way, does Jr.'s JP dialog or anything from a JP official guide specify? Additionally, the only behavioral difference seems to be he gets more aggressive faster (ie a typical recurring boss thing), with every other difference being from the environment (meteors, sinking platforms, etc). I'd support merging the Hisstocrats and leaving the SMG bosses as-is due to this, as it seems far more in-line with that than with Gobblegut. An incendiary exponent is much different from "goes raagh faster in a different place." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:16, March 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, IIRC, the normal Hisstocrat and the queen Hisstocrat were found once together. -- 03:02, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * You do recall correctly, so the current situation with them may be fine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:57, March 21, 2019 (EDT)

@Mister Wu Does the little blurb paint them as separate entities? How about the JP version of the game itself? Anyways, that's a color identifier, which the guide also uses (inconsistently) with color-varying enemies (which also tend to get their own artwork). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:03, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * They surely aren't inconsistent when it come to these Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 variants, so we don't have to worry about that.
 * This is the description of the Black King Kaliente
 * オタキング(黒)
 * パワーアップしたオタキング. メテオストライクも降らせてくる.
 * And this is the description of Bowser Jr.'s Lava Reactor and of King Kaliente's Spicy Return, on page 133:
 * クッパJr.クリーチャープラント
 * 溶岩でおおわれた、オタキング(黒)の待ち受ける惑星.
 * 溶岩惑星のオタキング
 * 足場が不安定な溶岩の上で、オタキング(黒)とバトル.
 * For comparison, since it was brought up, this is the descrription of Black Gobblegut, on page 159:
 * ガブリュウ(黒)
 * 炎の体を持ち、火の玉を降らしてくるガブリュウ. 長い体の赤い部分が弱点.
 * and this is the description of Snacktime for Gobblegut, on page 167:
 * 灼熱!怒りのガブリュウ
 * ハラペコチコで異なるルートへ. 灼熱 状態となったガブリュウとバトル.
 * As far as the game and the Encycloepdia are concerned, Black King Kaliente and Black Gobblegut are treated in the same manner:
 * The Encycloepdia states that they are variant of a previous boss with gameplay quirks (meteor strike is named for Black King Kaliente, fire body and falling fireballs for Black Gobblegut)
 * It also gives them a new artwork in both cases
 * The name of the mission featuring them just contains the name of the original boss
 * The description in the Encyclopedia then names the variant, except in the case of Gobblegut whose black color is not mentioned
 * That's all we might say about it, but there is a plot twist actually: page 58 of the Super Mario Pia that describes King Kaliente:
 * オタキング
 * 炎やバブルを放つ巨大なタコの姿をしたポスモンスター. 体の色が黒い仲間も登場した.
 * The use of 「仲間」 clearly tells us that the one with the black body is considered a different individual.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:03, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't trust Pia over a game itself. Unless Jr.'s dialog in the JP version of the Lava Reactor indicate it's a new individual, I'm sticking with C and potentially B. Anyways, Meteors are an environmental thing that really don't get going until the third phase of the battle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:43, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * Junior calls it "his King Kaliente" in JP version. Make of that what you will. SmokedChili (talk) 08:18, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * "His" King Kaliente? -- 09:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given the name in the JP version, that would be "My Otaking," which might indicate that "Otaking" is not an individual, but a specific subtype of Octo, like a queen bee or something. Or it could be just a power-mad spoiled brat emperor wannabe calling his minions through twisted terms of endearment. Who knows. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:40, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * The name of the mission featuring them just contains the name of the original boss
 * The description in the Encyclopedia then names the variant, except in the case of Gobblegut whose black color is not mentioned
 * That's all we might say about it, but there is a plot twist actually: page 58 of the Super Mario Pia that describes King Kaliente:
 * オタキング
 * 炎やバブルを放つ巨大なタコの姿をしたポスモンスター. 体の色が黒い仲間も登場した.
 * The use of 「仲間」 clearly tells us that the one with the black body is considered a different individual.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:03, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't trust Pia over a game itself. Unless Jr.'s dialog in the JP version of the Lava Reactor indicate it's a new individual, I'm sticking with C and potentially B. Anyways, Meteors are an environmental thing that really don't get going until the third phase of the battle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:43, March 21, 2019 (EDT)
 * Junior calls it "his King Kaliente" in JP version. Make of that what you will. SmokedChili (talk) 08:18, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * "His" King Kaliente? -- 09:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given the name in the JP version, that would be "My Otaking," which might indicate that "Otaking" is not an individual, but a specific subtype of Octo, like a queen bee or something. Or it could be just a power-mad spoiled brat emperor wannabe calling his minions through twisted terms of endearment. Who knows. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:40, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Junior calls it "his King Kaliente" in JP version. Make of that what you will. SmokedChili (talk) 08:18, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * "His" King Kaliente? -- 09:31, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given the name in the JP version, that would be "My Otaking," which might indicate that "Otaking" is not an individual, but a specific subtype of Octo, like a queen bee or something. Or it could be just a power-mad spoiled brat emperor wannabe calling his minions through twisted terms of endearment. Who knows. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:40, March 22, 2019 (EDT)

I know that Prima Guides aren't the go-to for naming, but if it helps in any sense, the Prima Guide for Super Mario Galaxy 2 simply refers to the fiery Gobblegut as "a fired-up version of Gobblegut". The wording would suggest that this is the same Gobblegut, but again, it's a Prima guide. Not sure how far we should run with that.
 * Eh, I don't think that really helps since you could easily interpret it both ways. -- 12:29, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'd assume we wouldn't turn to the English copy of the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia for much? Given the controversy around English translations and such, but just in case, I did want to mention that the book has a more set name for Fire Gobblegut (being just that) while King Kaliente is only listed as "King Kaliente (Scorched)".
 * It's not possible to rely on that, in any case we have the original Japanese text above. They both have the same naming scheme, name of the boss (black). Actually, the Japanese text doesn't even use Gobblegut (Black) in the description of the mission, it only uses Gobblegut, while King Kaliente (Black) is specifically mentioned in both the description of Bowser Jr.'s Lava Reactor and in the description of the mission.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:35, March 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, let's not. -- 03:02, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's just too complicated. -- 13:01, March 23, 2019 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.