MarioWiki:Proposals

 http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/9/9/17/f_propcopym_9045f2d.png A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code. Signing with the signature code (~) is not allowed due to technical issues.

How To
 * 1) Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
 * 2) Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 * 3) Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
 * 4) Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
 * 5) Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 * 6) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
 * 7) At any time a vote may be rejected if at least three active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
 * 8) " # " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 * 9) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
 * 10) All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
 * 11) Proposals can not be made about System Operator promotions and demotions. Sysops can only be promoted and demoted by the will of Bureaucrats.
 * 12) There shouldn't be proposals about creating articles on a underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try creating a PipeProject.

The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: , 27 2024 (EST)

New Features
None at the moment.

Removals
''None at the moment.

Splits & Merges
None at the moment.

Use First Official English Title for Articles
Although we are an English wiki, we are first and foremost an international English wiki, reaching out to English speakers from all over the world, including many non-native speakers. However, some of our de facto naming practices for articles have shown a heavy North American bias. Therefore, I believe we should create a rule stating that the name of articles should reflect the official English name from their region of first release. All official English names would be stated in the introduction of course; only the title would change. For example, Mario Strikers Charged would be changed into Mario Strikers Charged Football, as that game was released in Europe before North America. Similarly, articles about subjects from games released in Europe or Australia before North America would also have their titles changed. In this case, the kart articles from Mario Kart Wii would change to their PAL titles (example: Daytripper becomes Royal Racer). Games and article subjects first released in North America would keep their original titles. I feel this is the best way to resolve any conflicts about different English titles from around the world - release dates are the most objective standard we have.

Proposer: Deadline: February 17, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - Per above.  This should help us curb American cultural imperialism at the wiki while simultaneously fostering a spirit of internationalism. =)
 * 2) - Though resistance is futile, I must say that this is one of the most biased Proposal discussions ever, since 99.9999999999% (OK, a little bit less) of the users here are American. Per all of Son of Son's reasoning.
 * 3) - Per Son of Suns. The American bias here is enormous, I remember there was a proposal to clear the wiki of British spelling... And it almost passed!
 * 4) - Per SoS. Wikians here are native britons, germans, etc.
 * 5) Lu-igi board 05:52, 16 February 2009 (EST) per all. AMERICANS AREN'T MOST IMPORTANT!!!
 * 6) - Per SoS.
 * 7) Per Clyde1998 (I'm brazillian :))
 * 8) Per all. There's no other fair way, and　it's not like there wouldn't be redirects under the other titles... Yes, I'm from the USA. The "racism" coming from certain people in opposition to this proposal is ridiculous.
 * 9) - Per all.
 * 10) - Per Son of Suns. Also, taken from my comment below, just because the site was created by an American resident does not mean the wiki shouldn't be internationally balanced. The only inconsistency this would create would be among people who are used to the American names. Overall, on a global level, this would actually make the wiki much more consistent.
 * 11) - Per all.
 * 12) - Per all.
 * 13) - Per all. I was gonna oppose it, but you guys convinced me.

Oppose

 * 1) - Sorry, Son of Suns, I'm going to have to oppose this proposal for three reasons (1) The founder of this wiki as well as the HQ of this place is based in the United States (if I'm not mistaken), (2) the majority of visitors are in the United States area, I believe... and, (3) for game articles, we usually make sure to place different titles in there anyway (basically at the start of the articles themsevles). So, once again, I'm going to have to say "no deal" on this front.
 * 2) - Your overall goal for internationalism is highly considerate and very thoughtful towards our viewers who are from locations outside of North America, but I have to oppose. My reasons are that inconsistency in an encyclopedia (especially one of high standards, such as ours), is very unprofessional. Mentioning the PAL regions' names for games and objects in the opening sentence of an article is good enough; it still keeps this valuable information, yet it keeps all of our articles consistent. If I'm not mistaken, this proposal would also get rid of . I'd also like to note that Wikipedia, an encyclopedia with a much larger user base, and an even higher page view ratio does not do this. All articles have a North American English name, so long as there is one to provide. (An example is that Mario Strikers Charged is not called Mario Strikers Charged Football.) I'm not saying that we should follow Wikipedia to a tee, but overall, I feel that the inconsistency will only cause confusion and unprofessionalism throughout the site.
 * 3) - MeritC is correct that the website operates out of the US and most of our users (by far) are North American.  I oppose this simply because of how confusing such a regulation would be to implement.  For the editors: It would require users who wish to use the linking function to memorize where each title was originally released and whether each subject's first appearance was released in North America or Europe first to avoid linking to redirects.  Furthermore, we would have to comb through the entire Wiki, conforming it to this new standard.  It's going to be very messy and confusing without some way to monitor which articles have been updated and which ones have not.  For the readers: We'd simply be confusing them, especially in the time it would take us to update the Wiki for this new policy.  It's going to lead to a large amount of clicks just to find out that, for example, Mario Strikers Charged Football is NOT a new game where Mario and friends play American football, but rather our new name for a subject that we previously called Mario Strikers Charged.  Yes, it's a hassle for our non-US editors and readers to have to check around for the American names of subjects, but it's easier than making every contributor find out the correct name according to this policy.  And, for the record, I'm not being an imperialist. :)  If most users here were from, say, the UK, I'd be up for using the UK names.
 * 4) - Per all.
 * 5) - Yah, most of the people wouldn't even know the other titles for the articles. I think it would be safe to say that we should just leave them the way they are, they aren't causing any problems are they? Like the old saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And also Per all.
 * 6) I disagree the proposal in response for all - Also, it's better use the official north american names since the wiki was created in North America, don't you think? Use "original english name regarding to the region that the game was created" sounds pretty "weird" :/ (a word that you don't expect certainly).
 * 7) - Per all. Sometimes it's a pain to cow down to the American standards (I cringe each time I read "colour" as "color"), but you've just gotta grin and bear it.
 * 8) - I don't like to flame so I'll just say "per MeritC", or as I like to say, Merit Badge for MeritCool!!!
 * 9) - Per all.
 * 10) --PER ALL OPPOSITION. GO USA!!!  actually it is a terrible idea, it would make the wiki ripe with inconsistentcies.  This wiki was founded in the USA by a Steve from my state of New Jersey.
 * 11) - If you live in a PAL region, you just have to write on the search button the game you want in your region. Ex: if you write Mario Strikers Charged Football, it will redirect you to your game, so I don't see the problem. It was a choice to make the Wiki more understandable, the creator could have put the PAL names, but it is in NA name. If it was in PAL names from the start, there would be another proposal to say that the Wiki need to have the name in English. (Sorry if I have done any mistake in grammar English is not my first language)
 * 12) - Per all.
 * 13) This will make things inconsistant, like stooby said. You would be wondering whether to look for an american, japenese, or other type of title. Yes, I am american, but that really hasnt influenced me.

Comments
To respond to MeritC:


 * 1) The founder of this wiki is not only from the United States, but from the Earth. The wiki itself is "based" in a global communications network.
 * 2) That's a big assumption. I would say a majority of our visitors are from outside the United States.  Besides, we will always have redirects of any American English name to the game or subject article, so American visitors won't get list, and...
 * 3) ...the game articles, as I stated above, will have both names in the intro. Only the title on the top of the screen would be the first international English name.  So European titled articles will have both European and American English names in the intro, just as American titled articles will have both American and European English names in the intro.

Again, this is not for every article - only those subjects which were released in a different English region before the United States (and most of the time, the titles are the same anyways). --
 * Actually, MeritC is right on point 2... last I heard. I believe Steve can shed more light, but the last time I saw the figures we are ridiculously US-based in terms of readership.  15:10, 10 February 2009 (EST)

I must say this proposal really remind me of the whole Super Mario Strikers/Football move fiasco with ALTTP. Anyone remember that? --Blitzwing 15:40, 10 February 2009 (EST)
 * Yeah. Who could forget it?  Luckily there's much less accusation involved here.  17:56, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Son of Sons, you're a legend. Yet another reason I've mostly retired from this Wiki: I'm sick of this American superiority. And also, the time sig code stuffs up when I use it >_>

Thanks Dom. This is exactly my point - we are turning off our international friends because changing things would be "too confusing," even though the way things are now could be as confusing for international users, and even downright offensive or discriminatory. Basically, keeping things as they are can prevent users from editing, as the titles we use discriminate against users of certain backgrounds. Having an official policy in place that finds a compromise for all English-speaking peoples is the best course of action to encourage more users to edit, and for more users to feel welcome at the wiki.

To Stooben Rooben: Actually, this system would not be unprofessional, but highly organized. We would base article titles on official release dates, which looks much more professional than keeping to one "region," which is highly opinionated and connected to perceptions of superiority. If anything, our articles would be more consistent, as we would base everything on release dates. And this would not get rid of the other language template - that is for subjects that don't have an official English name but a name in another language. This proposal is only referring to subjects with two or more official English names. And actually you are incorrect about Wikipedia. Some articles actually use the European title, such as wikipedia:Yoshi's Universal Gravitation and wikipedia:Wario Land: The Shake Dimension. They don't have consistency, but we could if we used a release date policy. This would make the wiki less confusing and more professional.

To Stumpers: You have to consider how confusing everything already is for other users. Perhaps we should be trying to learn other titles on both sides. And of course this will affect much of the wiki, but that's the point. The whole point of the wiki is to change as needed. Stooby's recent template proposal is going to effect thousands of articles. But it passed, and now Stooby and perhaps others have to implement the policy and update all the articles on the wiki to reflect it. Regarding this proposal, I would be willing to edit all articles as needed - a PipeProject could even be created. Again, that's the purpose of PipeProjects - to organize massive changes to the wiki. And wikis are supposed to educate people - I would be happy for people to learn Mario Strikers Charged Football was not a new game but the first English name of Mario Strikers Charged, just as I would want someone to learn that King Koopa from the cartoons is based on Bowser from the video games, as King Koopa redirects to Bowser. We would actually be teaching people something. And making things harder for non-US users is pretty discriminatory - things should be equally "hard" for everyone. --

Alright, so my point about Wikipedia being solely American-titled was flawed. I concur with that. And maybe it wouldn't be unprofessional; I wasn't trying to jump the gun when I said that. But I would like to note one thing that you said that I find to be highly flawed. "Even though the way things are now could be as confusing for international users, and even downright offensive or discriminatory." Yeah, that may be so; I won't argue with you there. But, in that same sense, isn't this proposal possibly discriminatory or offensive to non-English languages? Say a game is released in Japan first. Its Japanese title, not the English translation mind you, should be said game's article title. (For example, The Lost Levels would be renamed "スーパーマリオブラザーズ2".) I hope you don't take offense to this comment, as none is intended, but that's just the way I see it.


 * Yeah, that's why I noted at the beginning of the proposal that we are an English wiki, which of course leads to discrimination against people that speak other languages. This proposal, along with everything else on this English wiki, is discriminatory in that regard.  However, within the English-speaking world, which we specifically cater to, we should be as free of discrimination as possible. --

Although I have to oppose the proposal, I do think that this website sometimes shows wwwaaayyy to much bias toward America. You guys aren't as high and mighty as think you are. Besides, its 'colour', not 'color' people! I'm from Australia. Its epically awesome. Getting to the point, some articles actually have better names in one region, for example, Wario Land: The Shake Dimension sounds better than Wario Land: Shake It!.

I'm ashamed that Walkazo supported and said we non-Americans should just accept this sh... er, stuff. But anyway, just thought I'd say that SoS's comment above this makes perfect sense - if we were catered to a Japanese audience, we wouldn't even be called the "Super Mario Wiki" - we'd be the *insert Japanese words*. Oh, and this proposal reflects some major cultural issues in the non-virtual world.

Knomaj: "Color" and "colour" are both correct. And before you say anything, I'm Brazilian, not American. I don't wanna start a war between the NTSC and PAL regions. About Stooben's point: He is right. If this proposal passes, we shouldn't discriminate non-English languages. So, if a game was first released in Japan, we should put its title in Japanese. For example, Mario Party DS, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Super Sluggers, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, Mario Power Tennis would have their titles translated into Japanese. And I'm sure there are other games that were first released in Japan.


 * Yes, both "color" and "colour" are correct. And Paper Yoshi, you are incorrect about the proposal.  If this proposal passes, we would still use English titles.  That's what the proposal explicitly says.  There would have to be another proposal to use Japanese titles or titles in other languages. --  P.S. Many games were released in Japan first, especially games from the good old days...(nostalgia trip)...

This proposal is clearly a direct response to my comment here, so I'd thought I'd reply, even though I'm not voting. I am sorry that Americans believe they are superior. We are not. We are lazy, unproductive people with no work ethic whatsoever. I am truly sorry about that. I wish I could change it. I really have nothing else to say about this proposal, as I would prefer uniformity with the names, but I don't believe we should use all American names. So yes, I am sorry. But I have nothing else to add.

This needs to be said: all these calls of "American superiority/inperialism" and some such are unwarranted generalizations against our American users, and it's beginning to border on bad faith and personal attack. I hardly see why this proposal is becoming a free pass to generically bash the blanket term "American" while forgetting that some of our most dedicated users who made the Wiki what it is today are American. This is not a black and white issue, as anyone who actually read both the oppose and support sides knows. The opposers are not automatically being pig-headed Americans and the supporters are not automatically being free, forward-thinking globalists. No matter which side you fall on, there are pros and cons to the issue. And, if you'd like to find out more about them, they've already been written about in depth above. So, here's what we all need to do: please assume good faith, as our policies state, and reread both the supports and the opposes to familiarize yourselves with reasons for each side that go beyond "YAYZ-AMERICA!!!11!!" and "BOO-IMPERIALISTS!!!!111!!", because this argument should not be about which nation you're from. To respond to SoS, I am aware of PipeProjects and the Wiki's goals, but I think about it like this: there is so much that still needs to be improved upon on this Wiki (yes, including the templates). I just couldn't justify taking away a substantial amount of user energy and time for what ultimately is going to be a very minor change when there is so much other work to do, just like I couldn't justify the outlawing of non-American spellings.
 * OK, I suppose I was a bit too wide with my accusations. There are a lot of great, selfless American people out there. And a lot of them are editors and admins of the Wiki. I am truly sorry if I offended anyone; I was simply saying that a lot of Americans in general do have a "superior" attitude towards other nations. I am glad that these people do not often edit the wiki. Dang, I fell like an idiot now... I should have kept my mouth shut. >_>

No worries Bloc Partier. I think it is important that we get our feelings and ideas out into the open, for better or for worse. And thanks Stumpers. We do have to remember to keep good faith. I believe we are all trying out best most of the time. The purpose of this proposal is not to attack people on either sides, but to debate wiki policy as it is connected to the heated issue of cultural imperialism. And to respond to your comment, I guess it's a matter of personal sense of importance. I feel this proposal would bring MAJOR change to the wiki, and may be more important than some of the other things that need to be done. Indeed I feel such a move could increase traffic from English-speakers in other nations. (Chicken or the egg, right? Do a majority of Americans work on the wiki, thus justifying American titles?  Or do American titles discourage editors from other countries, allowing Americans to assume the majority?)  Anyways, yes, it is important to keep good faith. We are all working to make the Mario wiki the best source of Mario information (in at least the English-speaking world). Debates and changes are important, but so is respecting and helping other users. =) --

I see your point, Son of Suns. So I'll remove my oppose, but I'm not gonna support the proposal. I just don't know what should I do. Support? Oppose? Neither? So... Good luck for you. Just solve this "little war".


 * Block Partier - thanks for the apology. Don't feel like an idiot, okay?  My comments were an attempt to refocus the argument, not to point a finger at you.


 * Oh, no hard feelings here. :) And you certainly succeeded. ;)

this proposal rules! in fact, maybe extreme american styles should be removed from the articles themselves.

a good example would be in some of the luigi's mansion articles:

"Luigi had to pull out his trusty vacuum and suck in the critters."

how informal is that? Lu-igi board 06:00, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * .. Since when American=Informal? --Blitzwing 06:50, 16 February 2009 (EST)

I have to admit my total astonishment at the amount of biased remarks made in this proposal, both from Americans and non-Americans. The fact that we're so viciously torn over such a simple issue really proves that this site has a lot of issues to work out. Yes, I will confess that a good portion of Americans are total asses, and it's saddening that all Americans are automatically classified as that by a lot of people. It's also extremely saddening that the amount of Americans that feel all others in their country are inferior. Humans are equal, one way or the other. We're all born the same way, and we all die. It's proof that a lot of aspects found throughout the world are really immature when a small internet community becomes this torn over article titles. --


 * Stooben Rooben: I don't know what your exact definition of "asses" would be, but saying that Americans are lazy etc. is a total stereotype, and there are good and bad people in any country(that comment wasn't directed towards you, Stooben, it was to stereotypers in general. I know you are not one). To get to the point, this proposal is not about superiority, and nationality should have no effect on making a decision for the proposal. I see both sides of the argument, but saying that the Wiki was originally created by an American does not give the opposing side an advantage, because everybody can acess and edit the wiki, no matter where they live. I haven't taken a stance on this issue yet, but I'm going to soon. --
 * Mario wasn't even created by Americans. But that really has nothing to do with it, considering people of every country play Mario. Just pointing out. But as Shiancoe said, superiority has nothing to do with it
 * Shiancoe: Replace "are" with "can be" and it might make more sense. I'm an American, but I absolutely hate the country I live in, so please forgive my harsh comments. I know that nationality and superiority have really no place in this proposal, but I can't help but notice that a lot of people are saying biased remarks; I won't quote any of them for obvious reasons, but by looking at users' comments, it's easy to find them. I'll take my definition of "asses" to your talk page, however, because I don't want to go too off-topic here. Personally, which ever side of the proposal wins won't affect how I feel about the site. The only reason I am opposing as of now is because I can't help but feel it would make inconsistencies. (I have OCD; I can't stand not having things 100% symmetrical.) So, I don't want anyone to feel that all the world hates each other; that's not what I meant by my comment. (I can tell you didn't feel that, but there may be some that do.) Yoshario: Very true. --
 * Consistency is usually a good indicator of proffesionality. We all understand this, but I beleive there is some controversy on the definition of consistency. The opposing side's reasoning is (If I am not mistaken) roughly "If all of the articles are based on one country/source, this is consistent." Of course, this may be true. However, it is only to that of people who are used to seeing the American titles, buying the games, and playing them. My reason for support of the proposal is that for non-American users, seeing everything in American names may be inconvenient. If this wiki was a domestic American wiki, of course, all names should be American. However, this is an international wiki, with users from the UK, Austrailia, and even other non-English speaking countries. By naming the article and objects in the article by the first region the game is released in, this makes the article naming "fair", meaning international consistency. For example, if Mario Kart Wii is released in the UK before the US, the American names are merely a translation, or a new naming of the originals. The UK names appeared first in front of the world ' s eyes, not America ' s eyes. So, technically, the UK names, in this case, should be the "official" English names of the articles. --
 * I see your point, but I'd have to go with Stooben on this one. I like things the same through and through. If we decided to use all UK or Australian or even Japanese names, I'd be totally cool with it. But using the names from multiple sources? I just have a lot of trouble with it. Oh well, I guess it's just my OCD creeping in. I'll still see how this proposal turns out without voting, however. ;)


 * Yeah, just like Stooben said, this proposal does reveal some world issues, and it's totally freaking me out to see what this proposal's doing. People I'd usually rub shoulders with here are getting pretty negative. :O I wonder if we should make a proposal about no anti-regional comments/stereotypes on the proposals page?  This issue will be with us for a long time and I'm really worried about how everyone's feelings about each other are going to change.  I hope I'm not alone in thinking that, just maybe, what people see here will start them thinking that the American crowd is sticking its tongue out or that the European crowd is doing the same.  For the record, though, if it's any consolation, I see US users on the support side and international users on the oppose site, so at least we're not polarized on that bit, right?  I'm not sure if this is out of line, but in an effort to keep this proposal from causing any lasting damage can I ask that the following users edit their votes: Twentytwofiftyseven - please remove the comment about racism.  You're thinking of regionalism.  By using the word racism, you're accusing people (although I'm not exactly sure who) of not wanting to use the European names because we believe our genetic background is superior. Lu-igi board: the all caps implies yelling, and this is supposed to be calm atmosphere here.  No one, on this proposal at least, has said that Americans are the most important country. JerseyMarioFreak - your whole comment feels harsh.  Please remove the "GO USA!" statement and consider rewording the entire comment.  Thanks everyone!
 * The negative comments is a problem, and should be solved separately sometime else as its own issue. Also, not all for support are international users, if by international you mean "Non-American". I don't think JerseyMarioFreak's comment is offensive to anybody, either. Most people all proud of our countries, and I would assume good faith that he is just being supportive, not arrogant. --
 * Generally being proud of where you come from is fine, but not in this context - as Stumpers said, it's got an edge to it when you take into account that this whole thing is threatening to turn into an ugly round of my-country-is-better-than-yours. This isn't a debate about which region deserves the right-of-way, it's about which way is best for the Wiki as a whole - that's why we vote: to determine which way is better for the larger amount of users ("The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."). -
 * Ah, yeah, I may have been a bit hasty. I didn't really mean "racism," I'm just a bit bothered by... whatever subtext is going on here.  And so, I wrote something stupid.  I honestly didn't mean to be offensive, and if I was, I'm sorry.  As for the proposal itself, however, I still feel it would be unfair to elect the USA as the canonical namer of English Mario games.  How do we know that the wiki is mostly dominated by Americans?  And now that I think of it, why can't we have the articles under both titles?


 * To be blunt Walkazo, that philosophy you just quoted can be easily used to keep people of different races, religions, sexualities, nationalities, etc. down for being in the minority. Sometimes the needs of the few by far outweigh the needs of the many. --
 * All philosophies can be perverted to meet sinister ends, and everything anyone says can be twisted. I didn't mean to sound discriminative, but democratic: if the few outweigh the many, then what's the point of the popular vote? -


 * I know...but in a proposal like this, we need to analyze such philosophies that have led to mass discrimination in the past and present under the banner of "democracy." --

Twentytwofiftyseven: that would be very reasonable. So, for example, Mario Strikers Charged would be moved to Mario Strikers Charged Football/Mario Strikers Charged, right? (note: first released in Europe, so the European title comes first) I suppose that still would cause some inconsistency problems, but it's just answers everyone's needs right now, and I don't think someone linking the order wrong would look too unprofessional... so maybe we don't need to worry about that. It definitely removes the initial problem of new users coming onto the Wiki and being confused about which naming standard we're going off of. What does anyone else think? Oh, and Walkazo: democracy in a nutshell right there. That's why it's so important for the minority to be heard, so that a freethinking majority can know their plight - so go proposals. :P 00:14, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * Actually, I was thinking of something totally different, but I like your idea better. :p Only problem is that it would create some huge article titles, and a lot of new users wouldn't understand the policy... 01:46, 17 February 2009 (EST)


 * Yeah there would be huge titles. Plus it doesn't really make sense to include two official English names in the titles.  If we did that, Magikoopa would be Magikoopa/Koopa Wizard, Geno Blast/Battling Borealis, etc.  The title should be the best representative English name for the subject.  Remember, both (or more) English names for a game are official and indeed interchangeable.  That is, it is not contradictory to refer to Mario Strikers Charged as Mario Strikers Charged Football throughout an article, just as it is not inconsistent to switch between the proper nouns Peach and Toadstool when writing about Princess Toadstool. --
 * 2257 - what were you thinking of then? If you've got something that would be more intuitive, shout it out!  P.S. SoS, wouldn't that idea make everyone happy, though?  What's wrong with long titles anyway?  08:37, 17 February 2009 (EST)


 * The problem is, where do you cross the line? Lots of subjects have lots of English names, so do they all go up there?  Monty Mole would become Monty Mole/Gopher/Chubby.  I don't think that looks very good (and neither does Wikipedia; they either choose the North American name or the PAL name).  We've already had an article title be cut down for being too long.  --

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.