MarioWiki:Proposals

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc.
"Truck Moving cargo trucks appear on GCN Mushroom Bridge. Stationary cargo trucks appear on the road in GCN Mushroom Bridge R, GCN Mushroom Bridge R/T, New York Minute T, New York Minute 4T, and Bangkok Rush; they also appear on the sidelines in Tokyo Blur 3, Tokyo Blur 4, New York Minute 3, New York Minute B, Los Angeles Laps, Los Angeles Laps 3, Bangkok Rush, and Bangkok Rush 2, as well as in these courses' R, T, and R/T variants where applicable."

The number of courses listed in this paragraph was getting so wild that I had to condense it with the "as well as in these courses' variants" statement. Problem is, this sacrifices specificity. The proposal aims to introduce a guideline whereby lists of this ilk are more digestibly integrated in prose writing. To this end, I propose two options, each based on a format already used on some articles; the preferred format will be applied when the amount of courses listed is 7 or higher.

Option 1: Bullet-point lists

The subject's general description for a particular game is followed by a bulleted list of courses in said game, like so: Slippa

Slippas appear in fifteen levels:


 * Jungle Jaunt
 * Freezing Fun
 * Simian Swing
 * Deck Trek
 * Tire Trail
 * Riggin' Rumble
 * Tricky Temple
 * Snake Charmer's Challenge
 * Mountain Mayhem
 * Spiky Tire Trail
 * Kong Krazy
 * Construction Site Fight
 * Fast Barrel Blast
 * Skyscraper Caper
 * Oil Drum Slum

If a subject displays different traits across one game, such as having different colours or behaviours, and these traits are described on one article as opposed to being split between articles (e.g. Bandits/Coin Bandits in Yoshi's Island), each course in the list is followed in brackets by whatever variations of this enemy appear in the course. In other words, if a subject has traits X, Y, and Z across levels A, B, C, D etc. in a game, then the level list has the following form:
 * Level A (X variation)
 * Level B (Y variation)
 * Level C (X variation, Z variation)
 * Level D (X variation, Y variation) and so on, and so forth.

Option 2: Courses show up in-line when hovering/tapping a certain phrase

When the seventh course is reached in a list, the courses listed from that point on are being integrated in a piece of hoverable text.

Maw-Ray

They are found in Piranha Plant Cove, Piranha Plant Cove 2, Piranha Plant Cove 3, GCN Daisy Cruiser,.

Notice that the phrase "and some of their variants" has a dashed underline. Putting your cursor over it (on desktop) or tapping it (on mobile) reveals these course variants.

If the number of courses slated to be included in hoverable text is too small (e.g. the seventh course is the only one left to mention), previous courses in the list can be integrated in the hoverable text at the editor's discretion.

~

Note: Neither guideline will apply where a subject's course appearances are described individually, like in the Skewer article.

Proposer: Deadline: June 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

 * 1) Not the biggest fan of using hover text for large swaths of important information,  I do agree with reformatting the big sentences though, and I am voting for this potion since it's
 * 2) mobile users won't be able to use the second one.
 * 3) I don't think it's very necessary to standardize this format, but organization and consistency are nice anyways. I personally like lists, and, as stated above, they don't affect mobile users, so this choice makes sense.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
I do not see the point in standardizing it, really Spectrogram (talk) 14:09, May 25, 2023 (EDT)
 * If you don't see the point, then I suppose you could vote for the "It doesn't matter" option. Or is that not what that's for? 10:51, May 26, 2023 (EDT)
 * Why should I? Abstaining is a better option when the proposal doesn't ruin anything if it passes. Spectrogram (talk) 10:58, May 26, 2023 (EDT)

Clarify how to italicize merchandise titles in articles
This is what Manual of Style currently states regarding italicization of media titles in articles: The wiki has decided it proper to respect all games, series, movies, television programs, albums (music) and publications (print: comics, books and magazines) by italicizing all of their titles...

This policy does a good job covering the vast majority of media (i.e. all digital games, audiovisual media, and print media), with the only type of media not covered being physical merchandise. All of this media is listed in Template:Merchandise, which has led me to notice inconsistencies in how the titles of merchandise are italicized. For example: This proposal aims to fix these problems by standardizing how merchandise is italicized. I've tried to keep the proposal as simple as possible; my apologies if this is unnecessarily complicated.
 * Despite both being board games, Mario Kart Wii Grand Prix is italicized, while Monopoly Gamer is not.
 * LEGO Super Mario only italicizes the name of the Super Mario franchise and not the name of the LEGO brand, but Super Mario Backpack Buddies leaves the entire title unitalicized, including the Super Mario franchise name.
 * None of the food media have italicized titles (i.e. breakfast cereals such as Nintendo Cereal System and Super Mario Cereal, and other packaged food such as Sunshine Biscuits Super Mario Bros. Chocolate Cookies and Keebler Mario Kart Fudge Stripes.
 * The Video Game Super Stars action figure brand is italicized, but other unique brand names, such as Trading Card Treats, are not.

I want to limit unnecessary voting options, so if one thing comes out of this, it's clear that the titles of physical tabletop games (board games, card games, and others such as Donkey Kong Jenga) should be completely italicized, because they are objectively games just like any digital game, and they should thus fall under existing italicization policy. What's left is to decide how the titles of other merchandise types should be italicized, if at all.

As a clarification, only official merchandise titles should be considered for italicization, i.e. titles that are clearly displayed on the merchandise's packaging, on the item itself, or otherwise from a reliable source, such as the manufacturer's website; a title from a source such as an Amazon or eBay listing is too unreliable, and a unitalicized, general description of the item can be used instead in those cases.

There are three notable features of many Super Mario franchise merchandise: Note that in this context, brand names should not be confused with the names of the companies that manufacture and/or sell the brands, such as First4Figures, Mattel, or Taco Bell; these should be left unitalicized. As an example, Freiberger is a company, Pizzatainment is one of their brands, and Triple Salami Explosion is one of the products sold under that brand.
 * Unique brand names used to distinguish a series of merchandise, most commonly with collectibles such as the Super Mario Trading Card Collection, Nintendo Super Secrets, and the aforementioned Trading Card Treats.
 * Names of games and series in the Super Mario franchise, as well as the franchise itself. These should already be italicized per existing policy.
 * Product names used to title each item in a series, such as the Burger King "Donkey Kong Time Racer" toy. A product name can also be given to standalone items, such as the Mushroom Bank. Because these are almost used simply to describe a product in the same way as an unofficial brief description, I believe these can safely be left unitalicized. I haven't included many options regarding these to keep voting options to a minimum, though please let me know if there is a valid argument against this.

Because of these features, I see four possible choices for italicization of the titles of non-tabletop-game merchandise:
 * Completely italicize the entire title, just like the other media already described in MarioWiki:Manual of Style.
 * Italicize any unique brand names and Super Mario games or series, but do not italicize any other words.
 * Only italicize the name of a Super Mario game, series, or the franchise if it appears in the title, but do not italicize any brand names or other words.
 * Do not italicize the title at all.

My personal choice from these options would be to italicize the names of any unique brand names and Super Mario games or series, but leave any other words unitalicized. I believe this would be the best balance between leaving all merchandise titles subject to a lack of standardization and brazenly italicizing merchandise titles where it may be unwarranted, though I can see a valid argument being made for most of the other options.

The option that receives the most votes should be explicitly listed as a guideline on MarioWiki:Manual of Style, under the "Italicizing titles" header. Please bring up any points of confusion or contention in the comments.

Proposer: Deadline: June 16, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Fully italicize titles of tabletop games, and italicize only the names of unique brands and Super Mario games or series otherwise

 * 1) Per proposal.

Fully italicize titles of only tabletop games, and do not italicize titles of other merchandise

 * 1) Wikipedia italicizes board and card games and doesn't capitalize other merch. I don't really see the point in italicizing franchise names within the name of another product which could possibly already have some italicization going on.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Change full names of crossover characters to the more often used shortened versions in article titles
This proposal is similar to this one about Conker the Squirrel and this one about Professor Elvin Gadd, except this time, the targets are the many Sonic the Hedgehog characters who appear in the Mario & Sonic games. In these games, the characters are almost always referred to by their shortened names (e.g. Sonic and Tails), but for some strange reason, the wiki article titles don't reflect this (e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog and Miles "Tails" Prower). This is also true of Sonic's Super Smash Bros. appearances, which simply call him "Sonic". Speaking of which, I'm lumping Fox McCloud into this proposal too for the same reason: the Smash games always just call him Fox.

Pages that will be renamed by this proposal:
 * Fox McCloud -> Fox
 * Sonic the Hedgehog -> Sonic
 * Miles "Tails" Prower -> Tails
 * Knuckles the Echidna -> Knuckles
 * Amy Rose -> Amy
 * Shadow the Hedgehog -> Shadow (character)
 * Vector the Crocodile -> Vector
 * Blaze the Cat -> Blaze
 * Silver the Hedgehog -> Silver
 * Rouge the Bat -> Rouge
 * Espio the Chameleon -> Espio
 * Jet the Hawk -> Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)
 * Jet -> Jet (Mario Tennis: Power Tour)
 * Wave the Swallow -> Wave
 * E-123 Omega -> Omega
 * Sticks the Badger -> Sticks
 * Cream the Rabbit -> Cream (character)
 * Charmy Bee -> Charmy
 * Big the Cat -> Big (character)

Redirects using the full names will be kept, of course.

Proposer: Deadline: June 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) The only part of this we'd hold contention with has been addressed, and after reviewing the list again, these all make sense to us. Now, admittedly, we didn't go scouring the list of every character article on the wiki, so there might be a few we're missing; but we can definitely address those as the crop up, and these are the vast majority of the ones we can think of anyways.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) P e r       p r o p o s a l.
 * 7) Per. Also, characters who have name like Jimmy Thang are using their common nicks (Jimmy T instead of Jimmy Thang). We also have Penny instead of Penny Crygor (and Dr. Crygor not Doctor Crygor), so I will whollily and happily support short nicks names for third partiers.

Oppose

 * 1) There are some crossover characters with shortened names that overlap with Mario subjects. And using the series name to disambiguate just emphasizes how non-Mario they are. If Sonic the Hedgehog is going to be moved to Sonic, then shouldn't Jet the Hawk be ? Actually, if there's proof of their full names somewhere in a Mario crossover like in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl trophies, then their page names should remain the same. The Sonic logo in Smash is proof that Sonic is Sonic the Hedgehog from Mario's perspective, so Sonic's name has to stay and every other crossover character whose full name was stated.
 * 2) Per Seanwheeler. After reading the comments I personally find this change to be unnecessary. And as Sean points out in the comments, names like Fox are generic and can confuse new editors.

Comments
Jet from Mario Tennis should be prioritised over the Sonic character as he is a Mario character. 13:40, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * Seconding this. We should probably make "Jet (MT:PT)" be just "Jet", and "Jet the Hawk" can be "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)". We'd be glad to support if that was addressed, but otherwise... Wow, that's a potential bit of Wiki Jank waiting to be discovered 10-odd years from now. ;P 13:54, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * I thought of that, but I wasn't sure what identifier to use for Jet the Hawk since he's made multiple appearances (and for some reason I thought there was already a case of a crossover character with priority over a Mario character, but looking at the articles we have I guess I was remembering wrong). I'll settle for "Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)" though as it's consistent with Slime (Dragon Quest) (as well as the former Steve (Minecraft) and Roy (Fire Emblem) articles). I've changed the proposal. 14:04, May 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * Works for us! 14:15, May 28, 2023 (EDT)

Don't you think "Shadow (character)" might be confusing due to the existence of Shadow the Dog, a WarioWare character? 18:57, May 29, 2023 (EDT)
 * I doubt it, since that article isn't using the title Shadow. If it was then the identifier would need to be more specific, but as it stands, I think Shadow (character) works fine. Compare Leo and Leo Luster, where no identifier for Leo works fine because the other Leo uses a full name. It's not a perfect comparison since in Shadow's case we need an identifier because of the SMRPG enemy but it gets the point across. (Speaking of which, I noticed that Ninja is another crossover character sharing a name with an SMRPG enemy, except they share naming priority. Maybe there's a case to move the current Shadow article to "Shadow (enemy)"?) 19:15, May 29, 2023 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler No offence, but did you even read the proposal before opposing? I am suggesting to move Jet the Hawk to Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog). There's precedent for this with articles like Slime (Dragon Quest) and Ring (Sonic the Hedgehog). And there's also precedent for moving full names to shortened versions, like Conker the Squirrel, Professor Elvin Gadd, Princess Rosalina, and the Donkey Kong Country animal friends. I'm not saying that the full names don't exist or that we should remove all mention of them, just that we should move the article titles to the more common names (we aren't about to move Mario to Mario Mario or Bowser to King Bowser Koopa). 05:39, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Realised I misunderstood your comment about Jet, but I still disagree because the franchise is called Sonic the Hedgehog, it's just the character I'm suggesting to move to his more common name in the games he crossed over with Mario in. 05:44, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Slime (Dragon Quest) and Roy (Fire Emblem) had their series title because they were only known by one name. Conker, according to the proposal that moved him barely had any reference to officially being called "Conker the Squirrel" in his own series. Sonic's full name, Sonic the Hedgehog is quite famous as that is the title of his series and he is called Sonic the Hedgehog in just about every media he's in. And while the character select screen in Smash simply calls him Sonic, his trophy is called Sonic the Hedgehog. So really, Sonic should not be moved. And neither should crossover characters with well known full names. "Big (character)" is too generic. "Big the Cat" tells us that the page is about the Sonic character. The crossover page names are fine with their well known names. We don't have to limit them to what Mario would call them. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:36, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Seeing as we're only covering the characters as they appear in Mario media, I think it makes perfect sense to go with the significantly more commonly used names in said media. It's the same principle as why we can't use quotes or artwork for crossover characters that aren't from their crossover appearances, and why the naming policy says we should ignore name changes of crossover characters unless these changes appear in Mario media. 14:46, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * And if these full names have appeared in Mario crossover media and they have the common name as a subject in the main Mario series, it would be better to disambiguate by using the full name heard in the crossover instead of using parentheticals. If we ever get an article about a species of, the Smash character shouldn't be or . He should be Fox McCloud, as his last name was confirmed in Smash through his Melee trophy and in Solid Snake's codec conversation. And Sonic is quite commonly known as Sonic the Hedgehog. If a character's full name is not stated in Mario crossovers, sure, I'd support them being called only by what Mario knows them as. But popular characters that have their most well known names said in the crossover should not be moved to generic names. That's why the proposal to move the Koopalings to their first names failed, because Palutena referred to them by their full names in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. And besides, we might as well move Princess Peach and Princess Daisy to simply Peach and Daisy if we're going to just go by common names. This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:33, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Honestly, I've considered moving Peach and Daisy to their shortened names (Daisy especially since she's rarely ever called "Princess Daisy") and I still wholeheartedly support that Koopalings proposal, but those are separate discussions. "This proposal is pretty much asking us to move the crossover characters to their playable names from Smash and Mario & Sonic" - indeed, that's my exact goal, and I really don't see the issue with it. Shortening the names to be more accurate to what they're usually called doesn't make them "generic names". Once again, I'm not saying the full names don't exist, just that we should use the more common names, which we have precedent for. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, seeing as this argument is starting to go in circles. 21:16, May 31, 2023 (EDT)
 * Well, in my opinion, full names (while omitting middlenames) are better titles for wiki pages than just first names, especially on a wiki that has pages on everything that appears in a multimedia franchise including crossover characters. And yeah, calling Fox McCloud simply "Fox" does make the name generic, especially when editors of a Mario Wiki wouldn't immediately get that it's the Star Fox character until they see the infobox picture on his page. And besides, it's better for SEO to use the best known names that aren't just one word. Mario could stay the same because he's the trope-namer for the One Mario Limit and his last name also being Mario was debated for years. Bowser can keep his name because despite there being a Doug Bowser running Nintendo, has anyone actually called him "Bowser Koopa?" Fox McCloud in Super Smash Bros. media has the Melee trophy, Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance confirming his name. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:55, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

Lol, this is starting to look more like a colab'd professorial thesis (whatever that is) than the comments section of an unremarkable proposal on a wiki about a series of children's video games, do you see how much this sentence is sticking out? BOWSER... (talk) 16:54, June 1, 2023 (EDT)
 * Trust me, this is nothing out of the ordinary. 17:06, June 1, 2023 (EDT)
 * Wowy, I guess I'm pretty new around here. BOWSER... (talk) 17:26, June 1, 2023 (EDT)

While I do agree with the proposal in theory, I have a thought: correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't this line of reasoning later be used to remove "Kong" from all of the Kong characters' names (save Charlie Brown Donkey Kong)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT)
 * Their names almost always include "Kong" in them, so I seriously doubt it. 19:09, June 2, 2023 (EDT)


 * Yeah. A lot of people have their first names as their commonly used names. So taking the common name rule too literally like this proposal and the Koopaling proposal would reduce a lot of character pages to one-name articles. That rule about names most commonly used probably should be reworded as names not being too rare. I haven't played any Donkey Kong games, so if the Kongs are reduced to just their first names, they could lose their identity to me, because I know them better as the names from this wiki. So really, we shouldn't be taking the common name rule to be that we call everyone by the short names they are constantly called, and we definitely shouldn't use parentheticals when those characters have a longer name available. Fox has been called Fox McCloud in Mario crossover media as recent as Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Even his Fighter Spirit was named Fox McCloud. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:38, June 2, 2023 (EDT)

Split the remaining Mario Party and Mario Party 2 minigame variants from each other
Building off of a discussion and proposal from the Balloon Burst talk page, I'm proposing we aim to split off the rest of the mini-games shared between Mario Party and Mario Party 2. While many of those games play almost identically between both games, many of them still feature various rule differences. Few examples:


 * Hot Rope Jump in the first game is a survival minigame where everyone must jump 20 times (40 in Mini-Game Island). Anyone who hits the rope loses and pays the people who didn't hit the rope money. In Mario Party 2, it becomes a last man standing game.
 * Crane Game in the first game gives the solo player only one chance to grab something or someone, with the money they earn varying based on who or what they catch. In Mario Party 2, the solo player must grab everyone and is given the option to grab clocks to extend the timer.
 * Grab Bag in the original has everyone stealing each other's money. In Mario Party 2, it's a battle mini-game where everyone grabs pre-disposed Mushrooms and one lucky target gets a golden one worth three points and the aim is to just have the most mushrooms.

Those are just a few examples. Several other games feature differences too. And while there is the argument that "they still play the same at the core", a few things to counter that are the fact that both Mario Party: The Top 100 and Mario Party Superstars actively acknowledge the different versions of each minigame, regardless of whether or not they had differing names or not. The Top 100 featured the MP2 version of Handcar Havoc while Superstars featured the MP version. And this extends to games with differing names, such as Hexagon Heat and Desert Dash to Mushroom Mix-Up and Dungeon Dash. And finally, this would be consistent with several other minigames; the aformentioned ones that share the same basic concept, but have different names to the notable examples of Bowser's Bigger Blast and Beach Volleyball, which appear similar to identical to Bowser's Big Blast and Beach Volley Folly. All that being said, I don't think it's that unreasonable to split the rest of these minigames into their own articles.

The following is a list of minigames that would be split:
 * Hot Bob-omb
 * Crazy Cutter
 * Face Lift
 * Skateboard Scamper
 * Platform Peril
 * Grab Bag
 * Bumper Balls
 * Tipsy Tourney
 * Bombs Away
 * Shy Guy Says
 * Hot Rope Jump
 * Slot-Car Derby
 * Bowl Over
 * Crane Game (minigame)
 * Bobsled Run
 * Handcar Havoc

As for the naming convention, I simply say we use the game as the identifier (Crane Game (Mario Party) to Crane Game (Mario Party 2)). It may not be how we covered Balloon Burst, mainly because many of the minigames share the same catagory. Some could follow similar suits (Crazy Cutters (4-Player) to Crazy Cutters (Battle)), but I feel the titles work best. If anyone has any further thoughts or suggestions, let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: June 9, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Technically, these are the same minigames across two different games, so it just seems a bit odd to separate them seeing as there isn't too much to distinguish the different versions. I don't really see why we can't keep them on the same page and list the differences of the minigames anyway. Now, I would suggest improving the clarity and completeness of the existing articles, but separating the appearances altogether just seems a bit unorganized.

Comments
So is the idea that this would move Balloon Burst (4-Player) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party) and Balloon Burst (2 vs. 2) to Balloon Burst (Mario Party 2)? I'd support that but I don't think the Balloon Burst proposal is technically old enough to change the names. 14:35, June 2, 2023 (EDT)
 * Actually, the idea of moving Balloon Burst's name is not covered here; that would remain unaffected. This is just the idea of splitting minigames from both Mario Party and Mario Party 2 that are still merged together. I guess I should've made a list of those minigames. As for the naming, I was just mentioning it to show I'm aware that it's not following the naming idea I had. But when the time comes that we can change that, I'd openly support that move too. Heck I tried to suggest it on the proposal itself.

I'm also noticing a few games that are similar to the point where absolutely nothing changes (Tipsy Tourney, Shy Guy Says, Slot Car Derby etc). If people are opposed to splitting all of them, I can make an option to only split those that feature significant changes.

@MegaBowser64 Part of the reason I'm proposing this is because we already have many minigames that are already split, despite being nearly identical. Mushroom Mix-Up and Hexagon Heat feature no gameplay differences between versions, the only reason they're split is because they have different names. And we just recently split Balloon Burst too, which also had the same gameplay focus as in Mario Party, with the only difference being the change in category, going from a 4-Player minigame to a 2-vs-2 minigame. Otherwise, the goal is still to burst the balloon fastest and the controls are identical. And with that minigame, even the name itself was the exact same. Beyond those examples, Desert Dash and Dungeon Dash play the exact same, Tightrope Treachery and Rainbow Run play the exact same, and Mario Bandstand and Toad Bandstand are in the same category as Balloon Burst; play the same, but different category.

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.