MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/31

Remove level articles of levels that have names
VETOED BY   This policy has been declared detrimental to the wiki. If anything, all levels should have their own article regardless of name.

There are no level articles for levels named 1-1 and 2-2, but there are articles for levels named Awesome and such. There have been proposals to create articles for the "non-named" levels, but they have been turned down. We want consistency right? So, I say keep consistency and merge, the "named" levels into their world articles. There isn't anything special about "named" levels besides the name. This level deserves an article as much as this one. So, as all else has failed before, neither of them deserve their own page. The only ones that should be kept are, obviously, places that have more than one level/boss fight in 3D platformers such as, Bob-omb Battlefield, Bianco Hills, Good Egg Galaxy, and Bowser in the Dark World. Easy enough to understand right?

Proposer: Deadline: September 2, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) It's my proposal, so per myself.
 * 2) Consistency is best in this situation, I see nothing special of the two different level mentioned.
 * 3) - As I've said many times before (1: most recent, 2, 3, 4, 5: earliest), levels should not get separate articles. Putting the level information on the world articles streamlines navigation and it does away with the whole "named vs. no-name" inconsistency. It also means less stubs and walkthroughs alike; the former because they'll be merged (and hopefully the short sections will then be less daunting to expand than a whole page would be), and the latter because there's a lot less pressure to make overviews long if they're sections rather than pages. However, that doesn't mean that being turned into sections will get rid of info: sections can still be nice and juicy - we just don't want the fluff is all.
 * 4) Per Walkazo
 * 5) Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Per all
 * 7) Per Walkazo
 * 8) Per Walkazo
 * 9) Just because they have names doesn't mean they're special. Also, per Miss Walkazo.

Comments
All those areas you mentioned as keeping their articles could actually be considered to be the 3D equivalents of World articles (while the missions/episodes/whatever that happen in them would be the "Levels"), which makes things a lot more straightforward: Worlds get articles, Levels don't. -

So you want to merge all of the Super Mario World levels, right?
 * Yep. Worlds get Articles, Levels don't.
 * How about Yoshi's Island levels?
 * Please read my previous comment Worlds get Articles levels DON'T.

Puns on the Mario Party articles
REMOVE PUNS 11-2 This is something that was briefly discussed on the talk page of Mario Party Advance. On the articles that cover the various Mario Party games (listed in the comments section), there is a "Puns" section that list all the minigames that have puns in their names. The question is, should we remove these sections or should we keep them? In my opinion, they should be removed, because while a few of them are puns on songs and English idioms, most of them are, as one person put it, "so obvious an intoxicated monkey could figure them out". It's crude, but it's true. Not to mention that several of us have been going around to articles and removing obvious trivia pieces, so having entire lists of these seems odd to me.

Proposer: Deadline: September 3, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Remove Puns Section

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) per GreenDisaster.
 * 3) Per GD, but shouldn't this be in removals?
 * 4) - The puns are more appropriately placed on the minigame articles themselves: there's no reason to have them cluttering up the game pages too. (And per Koopa K in regards to the placement of this Proposal.)
 * 5) Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Per all, also, we could just add the info to the trivia sections of the games as well, if it's not there already.
 * 7) Per proposal. These sections are pretty pointless in my opinion.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) We should just change the title, so per
 * 10) The lists are pretty pointless and the section should just be labelelled 'minigames' anyway
 * 11) At first I was thinking no, but then after looking at the puns they are pretty obvious and are just taking up space. I don't really see anything informative about it that can be helpful to the game or player or can be of any help. I believe this case should be left to the player to decipher it like if their walking along and hear the real world counterpart that pun references to then they connect the logic, so I find no reason to keep it.

Keep Puns Section

 * 1) Even though some of the puns are plain simple and the less straight forward ones will still be put into the minigame articles, precious work was put into the project, work in which my opinion still doesn't deserve to be deleted. Yes, some are dead obvious, but since the Mario Party series attracts a younger audience, it might not be very obvious to them. EDIT: Per Technickal's comment below.
 * 2) Per my comment.

Comments
And here are the articles that will be affected.


 * Mario Party
 * Mario Party 2
 * Mario Party 3
 * Mario Party 4
 * Mario Party 5
 * Mario Party 6
 * Mario Party Advance
 * Mario Party DS
 * Mario Party 7
 * Mario Party 8
 * Mario Party 9

@JORDAN DEBONO It wouldn't be totally deleted just put into the minigame article.
 * Unless it's one of those obvious ones. And how in the world is the Mario series for ages 3+? Actually, how in the world would a three year-old come onto this wiki?
 * Yea, I don't think a 3-year old would be able to type yet.
 * Let alone read what's on the articles. Also, what work? The incredibly obvious ones required no work, and everything else only needed a quick Google search to find out.
 * Really obvious ones are like, Bombsketball pun on basketball, duh, Shy Guy Says, pun on Simon Says, again, duh.

Ok look the 3+ thing was just an exaggeration ALTHOUGH all those game have 3+ on the box so you never quite know. And where will the pun article go, inside the minigame article? I don't fully understand this. Also @GreenDisaster, I was offline at the time so I couldn't respond anyone.
 * Yes. If there is a pun in the name of a minigame, the pun is mentioned in the article of a minigame unless it's one of those really obvious ones. The only thing that will be lost is stuff that we were already trying to lose in the first place.

Well that does kind of change my initial reasoning although seeing that the odds are against me and Technickal I will continue to support my vote. Thanks anyway,
 * If you're going to continue opposing it, you should at least change your reasoning to acknowledge what I've told you.

All right, if you're going to go with that angle... Currently, several of us on the forums have agreed to remove any pieces of trivia that are speculation, dumb, coincidental, or, most relevantly, obvious. And like I said, the obvious ones required no work, and the others just required a quick Google search. Besides, the point of this proposal is to remove the list of puns from the articles. You can create a separate proposal and argue about the obvious trivia there, but right now, it's irrelevant.


 * You know what, this is getting a little too confusing for me. I'll see what Technickal has to say about it. If I like his reasoning, I'll keep my vote. If not, I'll go back to remaining neutral. I just opposed because of all the articles that were going to be affected, and I'm not a fan of huge changes like that.
 * But it won't be a huge change at all. Eleven articles are going to lose a relatively small section that was mostly pointless.
 * I will see what Technickal has to say, and then I will continue from there.
 * I don't see any reason we should delete this. Of course some are ridiculously obvious (Pier Pressure anyone?). But it's fine them being in both articles. I mean, what's the harm? I also agree with Jordan's reasoning, the puns list was part of not one, but ELEVEN articles, and we shouldn't just throw it all away. My point is, the puns list works; there's no point in changing it.
 * Technickal, let me ask you a question; What exactly is lost by removing the lists? All the minigame articles already have their respective puns in their articles, as long as they're not obvious ones, so all that's really being lost is bad information that some of us have already removed on several other articles.

Create a standard on Prima guides
DELETED BY THE PROPOSER Aight, I know this is somewhat minor, but it applies to multiple articles on the wiki, so it warrants more than a talk page proposal.. I suggest that we create a standard on whether or not Prima guides should even be mentioned in articles. Prima guides up until Galaxy were all unofficial; instead, Nintendo Power handled the official guides. If I remember correctly, New Super Mario Bros. was the final official guide produced by Nintendo Power. Please correct me if I'm wrong in saying that Galaxy was the first official Prima guide. I want this to be as accurate as possible.

But I digress. I believe we should decide whether or not to include Prima's information, prior to Galaxy, in articles on the wiki. For example, on the Gloomba page, it says "In the Prima Super Paper Mario strategy guide, it states that Gloombas have the ability to poison the player, although this is false." This would be deleted, since the Prima guide is unofficial. However, on the Preying Mantas page, it says "In the Prima Official Game Guide for Super Mario Galaxy 2, Preying Mantas are called Jammyfish." This would stay, since that particular Prima guide is the official guide. If anyone wants, I can post a list of current articles that would and would not be affected.

It is my opinion that we should omit all of Prima's information (prior to Galaxy). Many a mention of Prima guides on the wiki is something that the company incorrectly stated in their guide. I think it's redundant to state something that an unofficial source got wrong. Of course, if the official source was incorrect, it absolutely should be added, thus the "prior to Galaxy" bit.

Proposer: Deadline: September 17, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Remove Prima Information Prior to Super Mario Galaxy

 * 1) - See my statement above. (Note: First, this proposal does not mean I'll become an active user again, so don't ask. Second, I'm going on vacation for a week during this proposal; I won't check on it during that time.)
 * 2) It took me a little while to understand what you were saying. Still, once I realized, I strongly support this. Would we use an unofficial source for games now? No. So why should we use an unofficial source for the games then? Simple, we wouldn't. (BTW, I think Super Paper Mario was last one Nintendo Power did that was official.)

Do Nothing

 * 1) - Some (a lot) of the Prima guides made before 2007 are official-those have "official [something] guide" on the cover (granted, that may be a silly standard, but otoh, Nintendo would have certainly grilled Prima if they were falsely claiming their material as officialy licensed). They're "less" official due to having an additional degree of separation from Nintendo, but stuff from a pre-2007 Prima guide can still be used when Nintendo Power doesn't give anything/nobody on the wiki owns the Nintendo Power guide. For example, the name for the Wario World midbosses come from the prima guide.
 * 2) Per Glowsquid.
 * 3) Per Glowsquid.
 * 4) - Per Glowsquid.
 * 5) – Per Glowsquid.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
@Koopa K: I'll clarify with examples. EDIT: Done. -

@Glowsquid: I see your point, but I think most of the Prima guides dodge legislation thanks to their claim of "Prima's Official Guide." Anyhow, I totally see your point on the Wario World thing, but that still leaves us with the multitudes of "Prima got this wrong lol" comments. Perhaps this should be a case by case application and not a proposal. In which case I'd rather just delete this than deal with the whole thing. -

Merge the various enemy categories from Super Mario World 2 to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island
DON'T MERGE 1-7

Edibilis Boringus, Harrassimentia Phlyoverus, Projectilia Ritebakatchia, Ucantia Defeatus, Dudim Phreykunoutonthis, Mostosti Vomitonus. These articles are incredibly short without even being stubs, and could very easily be merged into SMW2. There's really not much else to say.

Proposer: Deadline: September 7, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Merge

 * 1) I'm making a statement indicating that I support my proposal.

Don't Merge

 * 1) They are officially named enemy categories and I see no reason to merge them to the SMW2 article.
 * 2) Per Raven Effect.
 * 3) Per RF.
 * 4) Per Raven. Wouldn't we have to merge the DKC ones as well?
 * 5) Per Raven and Technickal.
 * 6) Per Raven Effect
 * No, no, no, no, no; like some others have stated, I find this to be a waste of time even doing this. It's fine as it is so far.

Comments
None of the articles are a stub, so why merge?
 * The articles are pretty underdeveloped, but that doesn't mean we have to merge them - it means we have to work harder on them.
 * Not only–note that they all have the same wording, just changed category name and enemy species. It's all like a recycling.

Proposals must pass by a Majority Rule
PASSED 8-0

User:Koopa K/Draft

I can put a draft in if I want to right? Anyways, I know this was already proposed here by Super Mario Bros., but I liked the idea and changed his reasoning to hopefully satisfy the opposers. Anyways, I included a draft here to make it more clear what I am trying to say.Please read the draft before you make your vote!!! I couldn't make that previous statement more clear. "You don't have a reason" is not an acceptable oppose, because I do have a reason inside the draft. I just thought it would make it more clear. So, a brief summary would be proposals may only pass if more than half of the users voting support it. (This only affects proposals with 3 or more options.) Also, no option will be deleted under any circumstances.

Proposer: Deadline: September 10, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per the proposal and what's in the draft.
 * 2) - Per what I said on SMB's old proposal: "it'd be bad if we ever do get a circumstance where something passes without a majority ... It'd be better if the proposal [is] extended ... In other words ... all proposals [should] need a majority of the voters to support any one option before a decision is made, regardless of whether the choice is pass-fail, or [has more than two options] ... The overall gist could even be explained in the top box, rather than the rules ... instead of somewhat-vaguely saying we need a "consensus"".
 * 3) – Per the people above.
 * 4) Per Walkazo.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Seriously the pers (except for the proposer) gotta be limited and if there are enough support/oppose there is no need to post that vote if all you are going to say is per all.
 * 7) I supported the last time this was proposed and I support this one too.
 * 8) – Per proposal.

Comments
Nice to see this revisited. So would this mean a new bullet points gets added to the top box saying "All proposals must pass by a majority, including proposals with more than two options."? I don't think we'd have to go into detail beyond that up there. Then, we can expand Rule 8 to say that "All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended if any single option does not have majority support: i.e. more than half of all votes cast must be for a single option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.", thus making sure we do elaborate on "majority" somewhere on the page. Rule 9 could also be elaborated upon to make sure that 3+ option proposals really do get clear majorities. I.e. "If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes. In other words, one option must have 50% + 3 of all votes cast. This means that if a basic two-option proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options require more precise counting of votes to determine if an extension is necessary." -
 * Yea, we can do all those things you mentioned.

Coming up with a more consistent standard for the Super Mario series
OPPOSE 2-8 The Super Mario (series) page is not governed by a consistent definition for inclusion. In particular, the first two Super Mario Land games, Wario Land, and Yoshi's Island- all of which are included on the main Wikipedia page- are absent, and it seems to me that at least a few of these games would be included were the Mario Wiki community to agree upon a clear, consistent definition for what constitutes a Super Mario title. My proposed definition would be as follows:

A platformer, either 2D, 3D, or mixed; Made by Nintendo; Features "Super Mario" in the title; Stars Mario as a playable character

The major consequence of this new definition would be the inclusion of the first two Land games onto the Super Mario (series) page. Reasons that have been provided against this inclusion have, in my mind, been very weak. Examples would include:

"The game just doesn't *feel* like a Mario game." While it's true that the first two Super Mario Land games are unique, the same can be said of Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Sunshine, both of which are included on the (series) page.

"The two Super Mario Land titles were directed by Yokoi, not Miyamoto." Again, while this is true, it's a charge that could also be directed against other games on the (series) page, such as New Super Mario Bros. 2.

"The word 'Land' in the title tells us it's a separate sub-series." This isn't tenable for two reasons. First, it would open the door to take off many other games on the list (64, Sunshine, Galaxy) that don't carry the familiar Super Mario Bros. moniker; secondly, Super Mario 3D Land is included on the (series) page, meaning it would need to be removed in the name of consistency.

"The two Land games weren't included in the Anniversary Collection Booklet." Not only does the Mario Wiki make clear that the ACB carries no weight as a source for Super Mario canonicity, it would also leave us in the dark regarding later SM games. Should 3D Land be included? NSMB2? Leaning on the ACB defeats the purpose of establishing a clear definition for inclusion on the (series) page down the road.

It goes without saying that this isn't the only definition that could be used, but based on discussion with others, it seems to be the most reasonable first step. That said, I strongly encourage a reading of this topic from the Mario Boards, started by myself, which goes into some detailed discussion about the ambiguities on the (series) page and ways to fix it: http://www.marioboards.com/index.php?topic=20682.0

Proposer: Deadline: September 18, 2012, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Consistency and clarity are essential.
 * 2) A written set of criteria is better than a literal nothing. Though I almsot abstained from voting as I don't think that specific page is even needed.

Oppose

 * 1) Per the arguments made in the thread you posted.
 * 2) LOL, Yoshi's Island and Wario Land aren't in there because THEY AREN'T MARIO GAMES. Just because they have "Super Mario" in the title does not mean its a Mario game.
 * 3) - Per my arguments in the thread (starting with this post), and in the Comments below (which is basically a summary of my posts). Also, this wouldn't just affect Super Mario (series): it also affects History sections, navigation template and categorization, Super Mario Land (series), Mario (series), and anything else that talks about the Super Mario or SML subseries - it's not a little change we're talking about here.
 * 4) – Per Walkazo.
 * 5) Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Per Walkazo.
 * 7) Per all
 * 8) – Per Walkazo.

Comments
This should be a regular proposal not a TPP.

I figured I'd make a mistake like this, although I tried to follow the guidelines as best I could. Moved to where I *believe* is the correct place... fingers crossed.


 * Big long rant time: I'm trying to reproduce my key points from the thread, so that it's all in one place, and after this, I (hopefully) won't be making any more big blocks of text (I already delayed studying by two hours for this: if I keep it up, I'll totally fail my tests... not to mention, put you all to sleep).
 * First of all, that Anniversary booklet is just as valid a source of info as any other officially-licensed product of Nintendo and we should use it as such (not "lean" on it, just use it as one of many things to consider when determining the series). Also, the fact that it can't tell us anything about what happened after its publication would be a ridiculous reason to write it off.
 * Secondly, the argument that keeping the SML games based on their name means SM3DL has to be removed too is rather flawed. For one thing, it doesn't contain "Super Mario Land" in its name, and even if it did, separating it would mean everything else about the game was ignored. The game wasn't designed as a continuation of the SML subseries: the plot, enemies and power ups are all Super Mario series staples, and the level designs (indeed, the game itself) are meant as an hybrid between the free-roaming 3D platformers and the linear sidescrollers of the Super Mario subseries, while the name is an homage to SML, nothing more. Clumping games into series requires looking at the game as a whole; if they share a common element in their name, that gives us official grounds to say "yes, this is a series", but we don't have to, and on the flip side, games with differences in their names don't have to be kept apart, but it gives us the means to do so if the big picture suggests that we should. The "Super Mario Land" name gave us a means to separate the games (while the games themselves provide the reasons to separate them, which I describe in the third-last paragraph), and while one could try to separate "Super Mario Bros." by the same logic, they and the other "Super Mario whatever" platformers (2D, 3D or otherwise) have so many common elements, the logic of separating them ends at the names.
 * Now, that's not to say there aren't differences within the subseries, of course. SMB2 was recycled from another game so its plot is admittedly a departure from the usual "save Peach" story, and SMS changed things up a little too, but unlike SML, many of the new species, characters and other aspects of these games reappeared in later Super Mario games (i.e. Bob-Ombs, Pokeys, Ninjis, Pidgits, Bowser Jr., Toadsworth, Cataquacks and the Piantas), with a number of other things becoming fixtures in the Mario universe as a whole (i.e. Birdos, Shy Guys, Petey Piranha, Gooper Blooper, Isle Delfino, Shine Sprites and F.L.U.D.D.), whereas SML and SML2 only gave us Daisy (who's not in any Super Mario games) and Wario (only in one Super Mario game: SM64DS). So no, the same can't be said for SMB and SMSs' uniqueness compared to the SML titles.
 * SML may have had the same "one-track sidescroller through various worlds to save a princess" outline as the SMB games of its era, but it used completely different characters, enemies, setting and gameplay elements (the vehicles and Super Ball). SML2 may have then brought familiar Super Mario species into the mix, but it had a whole new plot and a new "choose the world you want to do first" approach to the game. And, by the time we get to SML3, the subseries has morphed into a while new subseries: the Wario Land subseries, with a new protagonist along with a new plot, new enemies, new setting and new characters. WL:SML3 still has "Super Mario" in its name, but it's definitely not a Super Mario game anymore, and rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out while the others remain nestled in the Super Mario subseries, giving them their own series allows the last installation to remain with the first two. And the three SML games should be kept together, not because of their names, and certainly not because of their gameplay (seeing as each one is radically different from the next), but because they are explicitly linked together by plot, with the "Story" section of the SML2 manual referencing SMLs plot, and SML3s manual referencing SML2 by name. That's more than enough reason to keep the three games together, and it's also another difference between them and the Super Mario games, which don't make nearly as much effort (if any at all) to link themselves to one another.
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * SML may have had the same "one-track sidescroller through various worlds to save a princess" outline as the SMB games of its era, but it used completely different characters, enemies, setting and gameplay elements (the vehicles and Super Ball). SML2 may have then brought familiar Super Mario species into the mix, but it had a whole new plot and a new "choose the world you want to do first" approach to the game. And, by the time we get to SML3, the subseries has morphed into a while new subseries: the Wario Land subseries, with a new protagonist along with a new plot, new enemies, new setting and new characters. WL:SML3 still has "Super Mario" in its name, but it's definitely not a Super Mario game anymore, and rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out while the others remain nestled in the Super Mario subseries, giving them their own series allows the last installation to remain with the first two. And the three SML games should be kept together, not because of their names, and certainly not because of their gameplay (seeing as each one is radically different from the next), but because they are explicitly linked together by plot, with the "Story" section of the SML2 manual referencing SMLs plot, and SML3s manual referencing SML2 by name. That's more than enough reason to keep the three games together, and it's also another difference between them and the Super Mario games, which don't make nearly as much effort (if any at all) to link themselves to one another.
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * As for Yoshi's Island, it has the "egg-as-'o'" title logo that was established by the game Yoshi three years before SMW2:YI was released, making it part of the Yoshi series right from the get-go. Like the SML games, it wasn't in the Anniversary booklet, so we have evidence tat Nintendo doesn't consider it a Super Mario game (again, we wouldn't make a decision based on that, but a fact's a fact, and it should not be overlooked). And more importantly, it doesn't have much in common with the Super Mario titles from an in-game perspective: it has a completely new story and new gameplay, aspects of which are re-used in subsequent "Super Mario"-less Yoshi games, but not the Super Mario subseries. And it doesn't even fit your criteria properly, since it doesn't star Mario as the playable character: it stars a gang of Yoshis, with Baby Mario becoming playable for brief interludes with the Super Star item.
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -
 * Aaannnnd, I think that's everything I need to say. Hopefully I didn't forget any key points... Anyway, that's all for now, thanks for reading. -

Re: KoopaK's opposition -> Respectfully, you've failed to grasp the opening arguments. The point of this proposal is that the Super Mario (series) page needs to adopt a clear and consistent standard- whatever that standard may be. Perhaps you believe the Super Mario moniker is enough to constitute a SM game; perhaps Mario needs to be a playable character; perhaps you have a radically different standard in mind. What needs to be implemented is a standard, and the one I've provided- which only adds the two Super Mario Land games, not Wario Land or Yoshi's Island- seems like a small but productive first step towards some much-needed consistency.

Re: Walkazo's opposition -> I've addressed your points at length elsewhere, so rather than repeat myself, I'll simply target the few concrete points you make (as that wall of text is absolutely swimming in ambiguity and subjectivity save for a handful of arguments) to demonstrate why there's little substance to your multi-variable, "cladogram" approach.

1) The ACB booklet is either a) an authoritative source for determining which games are SM games, or b) not an authoritative source for determining which games are SM games. There is no middle ground. Because the Mario Wiki makes clear that no source is more "canon" than any other, the necessary conclusion is that the ACB should be treated as non-authoritative for the purpose of canonized compilation. And again, even if it were treated as authoritative, it would still be silent on later games- meaning we'd need to come up with a clear definition anyway.

2) The rest of your rambling boils down to two points of focus, neither of which are remotely objective: feel and impact. The difference between Super Mario Land and Super Mario Bros. 2, you say, is that the latter introduced new things that became staples of the series; it doesn't matter if SML fits the common-sense criteria for a Super Mario game (name, genre, playable character, developer), since, according to your definition, the game didn't have enough lasting impact to warrant inclusion. If you want to be consistent, however, this feel / impact approach is still going to demand some pretty major changes on the Super Mario (series) page. Take Super Mario Sunshine, for example: doesn't feel a thing like Mario 64, and didn't have a lasting impact on the Super Mario series. Why is it on the series page? Or take a game like Super Mario Land 2: feels very similar to a traditional SM platformer, and did have a lasting impact on the Mario franchise in the form of Wario. Or what about a game like 3D Land? The series has never had a hybrid 2D/3D platformer before, and as the game introduced little new- it was largely a SMB3 homage- those same "feel" and "impact" arguments could be leveled here as well. There's a woeful lack of consistency in your approach. Which brings me to my third point...

3) You continue even now, weeks after our first exchange, to ignore my requests for providing any clear definition for what games to include on the Super Mario (series) page. Leaning on rhetorical flourishes like "Consider all the factors!" may make your arguments persuasive to some, but it also makes them hollow, and if the Mario Wiki values clarity and consistency- and I can't imagine any reason it wouldn't- you need to make your standard clear. Is your standard complicated? That's fine. Is your standard multi-variable? That's fine. Tell us what it is.

4) Lost in Walkazo's ramblings is that I'm *not* advocating including Wario Land / Yoshi's Island into the Super Mario (series) page. Only the first two Super Mario Land games will be added. I do wish people would make sure to read the opening post carefully before commenting or voting.

Just one question: Isn't any criteria we come up with for determining what belongs in the Super Mario series inevitably going to be fan based? I know Nintendo cannot be expected to fill in the gaps every single time, but still it seems like we're just accepting/rejecting things into the Super Mario series based on our personal perceptions of what a Super Mario series game should be. I don't think it's a really important page, it's in that weird zone between Mario (series) and the respective sub-series like the Super Mario Bros. (series). I'm not arguing whether or not Nintendo considers Super Mario to be a separate series (because it's pretty clear that they do), but given the ambiguity what belongs in the series, I wouldn't mind if it was scrapped altogether.-- 00:53, 12 September 2012 (EDT)

Re: Knife -> You're right in that any standard we use is going to be unofficial, but assuming the Super Mario (series) page stays up (since this particular proposal doesn't question the merits of the page), the choice for now is one between a) an explicit, consistent definition, or b) something else. You'll also note that, as of writing, no standard has been given by the other side. Which means there are only a few possibilities for explaining the status quo: 1) There isn't currently a consistent definition for the Super Mario (series) page; 2) There is a consistent definition, but individual members are unwilling or unable to make it publicly explicit; 3) There is a standard, but it isn't consistent. Those voting for the Opposition should seriously reflect on how allowing this kind of ambiguity (whereas even the main Wikipedia page adopts a clear, consistent standard) will reflect on the integrity of the Mario Wiki, since I can't for the life of me think of any other such list that would go to such trouble to avoid definitional clarity.


 * Sorry about the Yoshi's Island thing (including it was partially me covering all the bases, but I also forgot about your third line by the time and was just using the opening line as reference by that point), but I didn't think you were trying to include Wario Land in there: hence I said "rather than splitting up the "SML" games in order to keep this last one out", i.e. rather than your strategy, which would merge the first two into the Super Mario subseries and leave the third one out. But speaking of extra games, doesn't the "made by Nintendo" criteria exclude Super Mario Bros. Special and All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros., since, to my knowledge, they were just licensed by Nintendo? That point either needs clarification or you need to add those games to the list of changes. You also need to start using "canon" the same way as the wiki: being "canon" just means that it's official - it has nothing to do with being authoritative, and it does not come into play when dividing up the official info into subseries (from Canonicity: "The canon of a franchise is a system of classification that separates official media products from unofficial media products [...] Any officially licensed appearance [...] are considered official [and] all official sources can be considered canonical and should be treated as such by all users [...] However, this does not mean any source of information is more canonical than the other. In no way should the organization of wiki articles be considered an assertion of what is canon in the Mario series."). The booklet is official so it is canon and we can use that information, however it is not all or nothing, since we still have the ability to make organizational decisions given the sometimes-conflicting info at hand; that's why we can separate things like King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine) from King Boo: the English name's the same, but everything else is different, so we decided they are different, and used the fact that their Japanese names are different as official grounds for splitting the page accordingly (both names are "canon", but one makes more organizational sense than the other). As for the rest of the discussion, I stand by my argument that what constitutes a Super Mario game can't be boiled down to a single elegant line; I agree that the games need to be (officially-licensed) platformers that include Mario as a playble character and which have "Super Mario" in their names in order to be Super Mario games, but the standard should not end at that. The enemy/character/whatever roster, plot and gameplay (power ups, stage select, whatever) are just as important to consider as those "must have" criteria (and some of it, like how many enemies reappear, could even be boiled down to cold hard numbers and not just qualitative observations), but either way, I disagree that looking at all the variables and making grouping decisions based on the number of similarities and differences that occur in those variables from game to game should be written off as inconsistent "rambling". The more info that is taken into account the better, because the resulting group members will have more in common with all the other members than if a broader definition was used and included less-closely-related subjects. Finally, regarding Knife's comment, having the "Super Mario" games grouped together is very useful for History sections as it keeps the main, popular platformers together, up at the top of the Histories, rather than letting the newer sets of games get buried under all the random spin-offs.-

Re: Walkazo -> No worries about the Yoshi's Island / Wario Land mix-up; I just wanted to make clear that those games are not in line to be added with this new definition if accepted. Just the first two Land games, by nature of their genre, developer, title, and playable character. The new definition would indeed exclude SMBS and ANNSMB as being "unofficial" Mario games, in the same vein as Hotel Mario, but I considered this a minor change (the one major change being, as I mentioned previously, the addition of the first two Land titles). Only two more points to address here:

1) Returning to the ACB, it is not "canon" in the sense that I'm using the word: namely, that it does not operate as an authoritative source on which games are Super Mario titles and which aren't. If it were, then we'd be left in the dark not only regarding the games released after the ACB, but also regarding remakes and ports, which go unmentioned (Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Bros. Game & Watch, etc.)- not to mention SMBS and ANNSMB would also find themselves excluded.

2) Your "holistic" approach comes at the price of inconsistency, subjectivity, and lack of clarity / verifiability. I do appreciate your honesty with this last post, because you yourself have now made clear that the Super Mario (series) page is currently organized without clear standards. Never mind arguments that the definition may be complicated or multi-variable; as of right now, a definition doesn't even exist. Though you're free to provide one at any time, it doesn't seem like that's a priority for you.

This is where argument ends and where opinion begins: either you opt for a standard that is without clear definition or consistency and operates based on "feel," or else you opt for a standard that sets up some reasonable, but clear and consistent, conditions for being considered a Super Mario game proper. [In other words, this is the main Wikipedia approach vs. the current Mario Wiki approach.] There's nothing else I can add on the matter beyond the observation that many people- much more than I expected- seem content to accept a status quo that lacks any kind of structure. A few days left, so we'll see where people fall on this dispute.


 * I say again, you should really use "canon" the way it's supposed to be used around here: using a unique definition for a buzzword like that is potentially misleading to voters. The argument is over, but I would like to point out that qualitative decisions are not necessarily inconsistent and unclear if they're done right (i.e. is all the games get the same criteria put to them). Besides, while the threshold of how different one game is to the rest is subjective, a lot of the criteria that are innately being taken into consideration when deciding "is SML too different to be a SM game?" are just as cut-and-dry as "is Mario playable?" (i..e Luigi? yes/no? Peach? damsel/playable/no. Plot = save Peach? yes/no/different princess. Setting = Mushroom Kingdom/other. Super Mushrooms? yes/no/different function. % of enemies that appear in other "SM" games?). Given enough time one could map all these details out and come up with some arbitrary numerical cut-off for how many differences a game can have, or whatever, but that's tedious and unnecessary when we can simply do it in our heads. It may not be a concise definition, but it's worked for years, and I think it can continue to work for the wiki. -

Seeing as I've been extremely clear as to what I mean by "canon," I doubt anyone is confused. Although since we're on the topic of misleading voters, I should mention that you continue to tiptoe around the fact that you haven't provided a standard. You're right that a complex definition can be made, but you've yet to do so, and this "holistic" approach is a tidy way to dodge the question. As I said before, it seems clear that consistency isn't a priority for this Wiki, which is disappointing to say the least; I'd expect a Wiki dedicated to the Mario games to at least meet the standards of clarity of the official Wikipedia page. As you said, though, this confused approach has been the standard here for quite some time, so it'd make sense that people would be resistant to change; it's just too bad that the change in question is a clear positive. EDIT 2: Just got a moderator warning for something waaaaaaaay less confrontational than my first edit here, so better safe than sorry. Let's just leave my closing thoughts at this: even still, no standard has been provided. Walkazo's argument is as follows:

1. We don't have an explicit standard for what constitutes a Super Mario game, so we'll evaluate things based on "impact" and "feel." 2. What is this standard, you ask? idk lol

This particular proposal submission won't go through, but hopefully it will sit with people, get their minds churning a bit, and realize that the current approach is irredeemably flawed.