Talk:Cheep Cheep (bird)

Cheep Cheep
Why is this called Cheep Cheep?Cheep Cheeps are fish,not birds;and despite what they claim,Prima isn't official(well...officially Prima perhaps).Given their record of giving things wrong(like calling Chain Chomp "wan-wan" in the Mario 64 guide,or claiming the queen is dead in the Kirby 64 guide when she clearly wasn't killed),the name is clearly a misnomer,because these birds are literally nothing like Cheep Cheeps.


 * There have been many times were Prima gets things wrong, but if that's our only source of information, then that's our only source of information. 15:50, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Prima guides are official, and we use our own discretion to decide when they are mistaken. There is no other official material that names these birds at any point, therefore we use Prima by default. The Prima guides have also been used as sources for many other articles on this wiki: unless you are going to argue that the guides can never be considered trustworthy because of an occasional mistake, there is no reason to change the name at all. 15:52, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

There is when Cheep Cheep is already the name of an established species and clearly doesn't fit.Cheep Cheeps were established to be fish in the earliest days of Mario.Why would a one off enemy be given the same exact name as a well known enemy,or the same name as any enemy,especially when they're entirely different?The name is clearly incorrect,and spreading misinformation is the exact opposite of what a wiki is supposed to do.It's no different than using fanon interpretations of a character's personality that is the opposite of their canon personality.


 * 1. Please sign your comments. 2. This isn't incorrect information, this is just is just valid information that has been confusedly named. Yes, the two are very clearly different, but what other name do we have to go off of right now? 16:12, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

No,it isn't.How is it valid when Prima isn't official and they just swiped the name from a different enemy?Hell,the bird barely even qualifies as an enemy when it's clearly not an actual living thing to begin,just like the boxing glove it's nothing more than a nonsentient trap.Prima doesn't get to decide the names of "creatures" they didn't create.If you don't have a name than clearly it is an unnamed enemy and should be referred to as such.And I don't have a signature because I don't have an account.


 * According to policy, Prima is an acceptable source for names. While the two Cheep Cheeps are very different, it is the only name we have. Also, you can sign comments by adding  even if you don't have an account. -- 16:26, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Then your policy needs revisions.As a wiki,giving ACCURATE information needs to be top priority.If it doesn't come from Nintendo,and especially if it doesn't make sense,than you're doing more harm than good by using it as a source.Clearly it is an unnamed bird enemy and should be noted as such. 173.30.250.44 16:31, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Again, Prima has been used as an official source for quite a while on many pages. They also wouldn't advertise their guides as official if they weren't sanctioned by Nintendo, and you can tell because their guides have the seal of approval. As someone who owns many strategy guides, I can also tell you that Prima gets things right far more often then they get things wrong, and the Nintendo Power guides don't always get things right, either. The burden of proof is on you to fully discredit a source that the wiki has been fine using for years. 16:33, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Not to mention, it is the only name we have. We couldn't call it unnamed, because that is its name. Not like there haven't been things with the same name before. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:35, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * You're welcome to find another, more accurate source. But at the moment, this is the best name we can call it by. 16:37, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Why don't we seek out the internal object filename for this subject, and if it's usable, make an exception for it as the article title? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:39, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm for that. I remember having a discussion about this subject's name before the page was created, but darned if I remember where that is (probably on the forums somewhere). 16:55, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Official means nothing more than officially Prima.Does it make sense that Nintendo would take the name of a well known enemy and give it to a random non reoccurring enemy?Prima clearly messed up and by stubbornly refusing to admit that,you defeat the purpose of a wiki,which is to spread ACCURATE information. 173.30.250.44 16:49, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Did they mess up with the naming? Yes. But that doesn't mean that our information is inaccurate. It's just the only information that is currently available. I don't know what you're not getting here. 16:51, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Dude,if they messed up the naming than it is by definition inaccurate.Inaccurate information is inaccurate information. 173.30.250.44 16:54, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Do you have proof that they messed up the naming, especially considering that the name is used in multiple instances in the guide? Even still, so what? That doesn't make it any less official. We deal with the hand we're dealt. 16:56, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

The proof is that it's already the name of an enemy and makes no logical sense.Again,no it isn't official.Because it didn't come from Nintendo.Saying it's official despite a very clear mess up would be like saying Gannon is the official spelling of Ganon because we messed up in the first Zelda localization,except that has actual ground because it was done by NINTENDO and not a third party that makes guide books.Use common sense. 173.30.250.44 17:02, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * When there's no other official source that gives us the information we're looking for, Prima is valid. It may not have been officially endorsed by Nintendo until 2007, but it is always a valid source of information. Additionally, "Gannon" was corrected in later games, but that's not the same case here. The point of the matter is this is the only name we have to go off of right now, and whether you feel it's correct or not is not our problem. 17:06, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Is it really that illogical for a bird to be named cheep cheep? Like that's a pretty common bird sound

Sunshine was released long before 2007,meaning that argument holds even less ground than it already did.Your own argument admits that the guide was not endorsed by Nintendo meaning it is by definition it is not a valid authority.That isn't debatable.If you don't have an official name,then it's an unnamed enemy.Refusing to acknowledge that is plain unprofessional and at this point obnoxious.And yes,it is illogical because there's already an enemy with that name. 173.30.250.44 17:16, 9 October 2017 (EDT)


 * What's "Obnoxious" is people demanding we make exceptions to our policy when there's no exception to be made in said instance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:18, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

You're trying to force an obvious invalid and unofficial name and refuse to acknowledge it as such.I've every right to call you out on that when you run a wiki. 173.30.250.44 17:19, 9 October 2017 (EDT)


 * And you also have every right to not do it in the most pretentious manner possible. And just because one thing shares its name with another doesn't make it invalid. See how we run King Bill? There's a reason for that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

And you're choosing to purposely ignore the fact that I've pointed out multiple problems with the naming it has to avoid admitting the name is erroneous.There's nothing pretentious about pointing out the stubbornness is obnoxious at this point 173.30.250.44 17:27, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * You've yet to show proof that the name is invalid, only your errant speculation. 17:37, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Here's a thought: If this rubbish keeps up any longer, I'll ban you for disruptive behavior, not following the guidelines we have set on our naming policy ("A name from an officially-licensed Prima Games Strategy Guide (when they were published concurrently with Nintendo Power) is also an acceptable alternative"), and not listening to the clearly valid information that experienced users who have been editing this wiki a lot longer than you have are giving you, which is perfectly acceptable to do according to our blocking policy. Deal? 17:38, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

It isn't speculation that the guide wasn't endorsed by Nintendo,nor is it speculation that it's invalid to give to completely different enemies the same name.Even trying to rely on your King Bill argument doesn't work because those are the same type of enemy,whereas a fish and likely nonliving bird are completely and totally different creatures.So no,it's no speculation that that isn't valid as a name.It's common sense.And banning someone for pointing out the problem with an article in the talk page only proves my point about this being completely unprofessional.Someone points out your mistake,so you resort to banning?Making a discussion on clearly inaccurate naming isn't disruptive at all.Disruptive would be vandalizing the article instead of talking about it.But go on.Ban me.You only prove my point that you're obnoxious and unprofessional with how you run your wiki,and a coward to boot. 173.30.250.44 17:46, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Do you see that red sticker at the bottom? That's a sticker calling the guide an officially licensed Nintendo product and definitive proof that it was endorsed by Nintendo. Your entire argument is based on an untrue misconception. 17:48, 9 October 2017 (EDT)


 * What you're doing is being annoying and ordering us to do things that the rules state we shouldn't do. And then you have the gall to call us "cowards" for having an actual system in place that works. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:50, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm fine with being a coward if that means the right course of action is taken. Disruptive behavior is anything that is ultimately proving to be unhelpful, which this is becoming. Our naming policy says that any Prima guide is a valid source of info if that information is the only available information, and you are very clearly not listening to the users that are trying to help you understand our policy. Last chance, man. Drop it. 17:52, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

What I'm doing is pointing out the flaws with your wiki and rules.You are cowardly.Not because you refuse to change the rules or the page,no that's just the obnoxious part.No,you're cowards because you resort to banning when your question about using invalid info.Pointing out the flaws in your system is unbecoming?Sure pal.Keep telling yourself that while ignore the problems with your system. 173.30.250.44 17:56, 9 October 2017 (EDT)
 * The sticker still shows that the guide's officially endorsed. 17:57, 9 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Except there isn't a problem in this regard. Bye bye. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:58, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

The official object name for this enemy is called a "Hatopop". I hope this settles things. 23:29, 9 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Not really? You came to a consensus to this off-site where some of us couldn't participate? That's not an English name anyways. Toy should have done this through proposal where everyone could participate. Not what you did. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:12, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * MarioWiki Discord isn't exactly considered "off-site". Time Turner and I conducted original research to obtain the file name of the enemy on Discord. I didn't feel like repeating points made there, but most of the administration, including Glowsquid, supported the move, and I support it as well. In fact, the file name for this enemy actively points to the theory that it was indeed an error in the Prima guide's part. Let's not lose our heads over this. 01:40, 10 October 2017 (EDT)


 * I consider it off-site since I was never invited, and really this should have had an actual talk page proposal. EDIT: Anyways, when are we going to start calling Winged Strollin' Stu, Sleepy Boo, and Jumping Blooper by their file names. Consistency...... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:42, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I'd say this is a special case since the Prima name was unnecessarily confusing, which is a problem the other articles you mentioned don't suffer from. Niiue (talk) 01:55, 10 October 2017 (EDT)


 * If it's a point of contention and there's more people asking for this to be discussed further on-site, you could hold a retroactive talk page proposal. You know, just to make it official. - 02:28, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

Hatopop filename
I know this discussion lasts from one year, but Hatopop is an internal filename. Since internal filenames are only romanizations of Japanese names, Hatopop may not be the english name of subjects. -- 10:45, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Ps:I mean that Nintendo is from Japan, and each internal filenames are romanizations of the Japanese name. Hatopop is from the internal filename, and may not be the english name of the subject. Would it make it from a non-english source with the another language putted it? -- 11:05, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * The name is spelled out using English characters. So I don't think so. 11:12, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Internal filenames are actually romanizations of Japanese names. As mentioned in the article "hato" is the Japanese for pigeon. -- 11:19, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Sure, but the name is not written with Japanese characters, which is when the other languages template comes into play. If the name is written with English characters, even if it's a romanization, it is still in English. 11:33, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * I think it's likely that it's romanized, as Japanese romanization is very common in internal file structures (most of internal file and datamines and all are written in latin alphabet, in English). I noted this in the reference. 16:08, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * So, would it make the Japanese name 鳩ポップ? -- 16:15, 29 October 2018 (EDT)
 * No, because those characters are not what's actually used. 17:36, 29 October 2018 (EDT)

Recently, internal filenames have been deemed another language if the name itself has a full or partial foreign origin, and with the hato part having clear Japanese roots, I think we should consider doing the same for Hatopop. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:14, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * Since there is a definitive english name, shouldn't we move this back to Cheep Cheep (bird)? -- 14:20, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given the above discussion and the source priority exception proposal being made in response, I'd recommend against it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:30, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the one to have a more case-by-case basis, i cancelled it due to you suggesting to do it on the talk page. Maybe should we make either a proposal on this page to move it back, or on MarioWiki talk:Naming, but i'd prefer not to flood it with more proposals. -- 14:37, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * I honestly forgot that one of the four official guides called them "Cheep Cheeps", although it seems generally agreed to have been mistaken rather than deliberate. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:55, April 3, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think that it's delibarate. Any guide references the internal filename, or none mention it at any point? -- 02:10, April 4, 2019 (EDT)

Puncher
Should it be split? Or is it complicated by the fact that the Cheep Cheep is not mentioned in the encyclopedia? -- 12:20, May 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Better yet, why not keep them in the same article (being introduced under the "Cheep Cheep and Puncher" description in Prima, having the same in-game function, likely both meant to be said "trap" in Encyclopedia), but rename the article to Puncher? That would kill two birds with one stone. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:26, May 14, 2019 (EDT)
 * Do they have separate filenames? -- 02:33, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the Cheep Cheep, is it mentioned in guides other than the Prima guide? -- 02:34, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Their filenames are exremely similar: Hatopop's are hatopop_appear1.bas, hatopop_appear1.bck and hatopop_model1.bmd, and Puncher's are puncher_appear1.bas, puncher_appear1.bck and puncher_model1.bmd (another example of these guides referencing internal sources). And no. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:39, May 15, 2019 (EDT) LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:39, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * IIRC, it only pictures the Puncher. -- 02:43, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, is there a video where i can find the Puncher? -- 03:25, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Double-checked the encyclopedia, it's also called Trap, since we did not cover the name "Puncher" prior to a few months. -- 16:06, August 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Should we start a proposal? -- 09:31, August 5, 2019 (EDT)

Name
Isn't "cheep" a common onomatopoeia for the sound a bird makes? If so, the name "Cheep Cheep" may just be a case of the author A. not realizing other Cheep Cheeps existed or B. going "oh hey i'm-a-gonna give this name to another enemy that happens to make the name 'Cheep Cheep' make sense". Just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention. 17:22, September 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I thought everyone knew that already... 18:01, September 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I think you REALLY would've benefited from reading the talk page, because this has already been thoroughly discussed. -- 18:11, September 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I was more trying to express the point that yes, this was a logical name, but it doesn't work because of the source priority exception. 18:14, September 26, 2019 (EDT)

Rename?
So, my point last time, was in the same case as Petari/Petapeta. It is also comparable to Kiba thing, because it only is partially translated (although "pop" exists in Japanese), and using "it uses English characters", is invalid, since French, Spanish, Italian, German and so on and so forth, all use the same characters. Jump Beamer, isn't comparable, as while it's actually its Japanese name, the words are taken from English (it's present in the game's files too), and isn't a partial translation. If we have Petapeta moved back to its Japanese name (it doesn't have any Japanese name), why can't we move this back to Cheep Cheep (bird), I know source priority is a thing, but Hatopop is not English, and it has a definitive English name, and is not actually related to Cheep Cheep. Unless i'm missing something, it does have an English name. -- 08:25, November 26, 2021 (EST)
 * Yeah, to me "Cheep Cheep" was just a cute name that the author of the Prima guide came up with because the first version of an enemy is a small green bird. If it has an English name, then we should use the English name and not some file name just because the first little guy isn't a fish. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 12:23, January 3, 2022 (EST)
 * Cheep Cheep is the only English name. -- 13:12, January 3, 2022 (EST)

Move back to Cheep Cheep (bird) and/or split Puncher
Ok, so i'm REALLY annoyed by this. First: No, Hatopop is not an English name, nor is it the subject's English name. And no, these letters (more specifically the Alphabet) aren't English, they have been used in many other languages, like my native language, French. It also includes, Italian, Spanish, German, etc. And JUST because it has "pop" in it, doesn't make it English. Take Kiba Pig Poppo (why was it called Tusk Butapoppo, when it should have been Kiba Butapoppo? i'll message Toa 95 about it later, since you don't translate Japanese to English like this, it only applies to loanwords), for example. It was given the another language template, due to only being partially translated. And yes, i know "priority exception" is a thing, but Cheep Cheep is the ONLY English name. And yes, i agree that Discord was off-site. If i had an account before all that happened, on this wiki as a whole, i'd have opposed. Proposer: FanOfYoshi Deadline: August 16, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Rename to Cheep Cheep (bird), and split Puncher

 * 1) - Puncher is usually angled, and as such seems to be intended to launch the player, while Cheep just pushes. As for moving back from "Hatopop," that's a matter of course since I was so adamantly against it being moved in the first place back in the day and still believe file names in JP-developed games are only title material if in recognizable English for at least most of the name's length.
 * 2) Second option, per Doc von Schmeltwick.
 * 3) Per Doc. "Cheep Cheep" clearly only applies to the bird version, so including the boxing glove with it seems off. We split the Wario World enemy variants for a similar reason.
 * 4) This option is fine with me as well. It's not like Pianta and Chuckster, where the latter is just a named variant of Pianta with next to no differences whatsoever (other than flinging Mario).
 * 5) Primary choice, per Doc. It's kind of weird to use an internal name for an obstacle we know the English and Japanese names of (at least, English for the bird, and Japanese for the glove)
 * 6) No matter how weird or unfitting the name is, it's called Cheep Cheep officially. And yeah, I don't know, the Puncher is different.
 * 7) One is a bird that jumps out from a wall, while the other is a boxing glove that punches upward, so I feel as though the two should be split off at the very least. Per Doc.

Rename to Cheep Cheep

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) "Cheep Cheep" may be more commonly used by the recurring fish enemy but it's much less confusing to our readers than something like "Hatopop", which is half Japanese romanization and half English loanword. I'm unsure about Puncher, as from what I can tell they both are extremely similar in a lot of ways.
 * 3) I'm not happy about it either, but "Cheep Cheep (bird)" feels more straightforward in the end.
 * 4) I feel like renaming this article definitely necessary, but I'm not too sure about spliting "Puncher", so this option works with me.

Split Puncher

 * 1) Secondary choice. If anyone is opposed renaming it to a name that's already shared with a well-known enemy, at the very least split off the boxing glove trap from the cuckoo clock bird trap. Both "Cheep Cheep" and the internal "Hatopop" refer to birds, which a boxing glove simply is not.

Don't do anything

 * 1) I'm not seeing a new compelling case here. If our readers are confused, well, that's what  is for, which is already done in the page. Sometimes, we have to make the judgement call here, and I still feel the naming scheme from Prima is too problematic to stick to it. The proposal's entirety relies on the argument that "hatopop" is not an English name, which, well, it's true; no one has ever claimed otherwise, per the  template on our page.

Comments
If you want to seem less agressive here, then just say you were "annoyed" at the situation, and do not say stuff like "that stupid I.P". 08:55, August 2, 2022 (EDT)

One comment, "these letters aren't English, they have been used in many other languages" is a strawman argument; every time we've had a filename in the greater Mario series, it's either been a Japanese romanization or an English word (or sometimes both). 09:07, August 2, 2022 (EDT)
 * @Somethingone, i'm referring to the letters themselves, not the words. The alphabet, more specifically. -- 09:12, August 2, 2022 (EDT)
 * Yes, those letters are used by other languages, I'm just saying that the words from the file names have never been anything other than Japanese or English before. 09:13, August 2, 2022 (EDT)

If it stays merged it should probably be moved to "Trap" since that seems to be the umbrella term and the only one written sources use other than Cheep Cheep. Generic, sure, but Zelda's got some pretty good mileage out of an obstacle just called "Trap." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 09:56, August 2, 2022 (EDT)
 * Would that mean we keep the another language template, since we can't cite the English encyclopedia (it's also trap). -- 12:35, August 2, 2022 (EDT)
 * Hard to say since it's a loanword. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, August 2, 2022 (EDT)

@Bazooka I don't understand you point here. If we are fully aware that the current name is from another language & that "Cheep Cheep" is in English, is non-generic, and is actually descriptive(it's a noise birds make), then we should move it to that name and use an identifier. That's what our naming hierarchy is. And Prima's "problematic naming scheme" isn't really relevant in this case since Klamber is named as such. (And before you bring up "identical name source priority" or anything like that, please note that Klamber and Scuttlebug are both still rustling spiders while the "Cheep Cheep" here is a completely different species from the common Mario franchise enemy) 21:13, August 2, 2022 (EDT)
 * It's technically descriptive but it's quite an eyebrow raiser of a name similar to "Huge Red ElectroKoopa". The idea that it's descriptive sounds like post-facto reasoning personally to me, although I can understand so, just don't agree with it. 00:25, August 3, 2022 (EDT)
 * I don't think it's comparable to Huge Red Electrokoopa. That name falls under the dubious category of "technically correct but still blatantly unfitting" due to it actually being green. Cheep Cheep is a perfectly fitting name for a bird thing, more than it is for the staple fish enemy, honestly. In fact, if there's a place other than the Mario franchise where "cheep cheep" isn't primarily associated with birds, I don't know it. A more apt comparison would be the Spinies from DKC2, which have nothing to do with the staple Mario enemy but are hardly unfittingly named. 01:13, August 3, 2022 (EDT)
 * Not to mention that Cheep Cheep is the only English name, for the subject, let alone Puncher. -- 08:23, August 3, 2022 (EDT)

Question: under "Names in other languages", it states that the Japanese name, "Trap", is "explicitly [used for] Puncher" (the boxing glove), which was used for the Shogakukan Mario encyclopedia from 2015. But what does that mean for Hatopop/Cheep Cheep (the bird)? Does it use the same Japanese name as Puncher, or does it use a different Japanese name at all? If it uses a different Japanese name compared to Puncher, it might help with the fact that these two need to be split. Arend (talk) 15:34, August 7, 2022 (EDT)
 * That means it's being used as an umbrella term for both and "Puncher" is just the one that was pictured. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:48, August 7, 2022 (EDT)