MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Discourage drive-by templating
Improvement templates are a necessary, or at least beneficiary, eyesore but they can be subject to degenerate editing behaviours. Namely, it's very easy (and common) for editors to just slap improvement templates on pages with no or vague reasons and then leave (Template:Rewrite-expand in particular is subject to this). Not only can it be Kind of Rude when it's slapped on a recently-created article, the resulting eyesores stay on pages for years, as it's not clear to anyone but the editor who added the template what needs to be done - the Donkey Kong page has had a Rewrite-Expand notice since 2017 for vague "bad writing" and it's hard to tell what's so awful about the existing writing or what content must be added.

Through conversations on our Discord server, I've found other editors share my frustration with this behaviour. Fortunately, I believe there's an easy fix. Most improvement templates have parameters to explain in the template text why the template was added to a page, and any improvement template that currently does not incorporate this can be easily modified to have it. As such I propose, should this pass, that from this point, any improvement template added to a page must have its reason parameter filled with specific, actionable points. Emphasis on the "specific" - just saying a page has "bad writing" or "is missing images" without specifically saying what is bad about the writing or what images are missing won't cut mustard. Any currently-used instances that do not have their parameter filled (or only give a vague reason) will be removed, although it does not mean the templates can't be readded if specific reasons are listed.

Proposer: Deadline: March 6, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Require improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) was always bothered by this
 * 6) I don't see any reason why we should not do this.
 * 7) - Per (also the reason parameter should be the second one, not date or user or whatever irrelevant garbage)
 * 8) per. Also we should encourage going on talk page or linking to an existing talk page discussion, which can also serve to elaborate on points being made that can't fit on a rewrite template.
 * 9) per.
 * 10) Per proposal.
 * 11) Per all. I remember doing some edits to the Donkey Kong page and having trouble finding what was being considered "bad writing". So I ended up mostly just removing false information and fixing the formatting on the page.
 * 12) Per proposal, (maybe without the Trivia template).
 * 13) Per proposal.
 * 14) Per proposal.
 * 15) Per proposal.
 * 16) per all the users who interacted with me previously in one way or another.
 * 17) Possibly out of the scope of this proposal, but I also think that split and merge request templates without a discussion tied to them (I've seen several) should be removed for the same reason.
 * 18) Absolutely on board.
 * 19) Per proposal.
 * 20) Per proposal.
 * 21) Literally a day before the deadline, but... Per proposal.
 * 22) Per all.
 * 23) Yeah, these templates should clearly indicate how to improve the page, otherwise they're pretty much worthless.
 * 24) Per proposal.
 * 1) Per proposal.

Comments
This is probably a given already, but will this also apply to "more image" templates? Again, what kind of images required should be stated as well. 21:42, February 27, 2023 (EST)
 * Yeah, I think in spirit, this should apply. 01:54, February 28, 2023 (EST)

Two questions: Specifically what templates would be covered under this proposal? And what would happen to existing examples of unhelpful templates on the wiki already? (i.e.: Donkey Kong's page, Kamek's page) Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion (if so I do agree)? 11:17, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * The proposal does say that any templates that either don't have any reasoning or are too vague will be removed from articles. I'm assuming templates like Template:Rewrite, Template:More images etc will be the ones affected. 11:37, February 28, 2023 (EST)

So the templates covered would be the following:


 * Template:More images
 * Template:More media
 * Template:Rewrite
 * Template:Rewrite-expand
 * Template:Trivia

"Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion?"

Yes. --Glowsquid (talk) 12:41, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * Are you sure including the trivia template for this proposal is a good idea? Spectrogram (talk) 12:53, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * I almost put "Maybe it could be an exception? idk" next to it. It already identifies a specific problem so I guess it can be excluded. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:04, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * Seconding this question. The community has already discussed specific criteria for trimming improper trivia, so any problems signalled by this tag are often easy to detect and fix, even without providing specifics in said tag. 13:06, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * That makes sense. You have my vote, although I believe Trivia template should not be included. 13:36, February 28, 2023 (EST)
 * The trivia template probably could be reworked some way, maybe agree on how many trivia points in a trivia section there should be before the template becomes warranted (I'd often say about five or six). 16:00, February 28, 2023 (EST)

As 7feetunder proposed, would it be possible to include Template:Split, Template:Merge to and Template:Merge from in the list? 17:22, March 2, 2023 (EST)
 * Those (however inexplicably) don't even have reason parameters, so that is inapplicable here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, March 2, 2023 (EST)
 * 7feetunder said if they could only be used if there is an active discussion or proposal regarding its respective matter, which I would agree with as well. 17:51, March 2, 2023 (EST)
 * I also agree. 23:08, March 4, 2023 (EST)
 * I would agree with requiring an active discussion or proposal in order to use merge or split-related templates, as like with the templates currently covered by the proposal, I have seen occasional instances of the reasoning for the split/merge request being only stated in edit summaries. I feel like it is important for the templates to be able to link directly to discussions that include reasoning, as I feel that having to search page histories for reasoning makes it more likely for the templates to just sit on articles without getting attention. -- 23:34, March 4, 2023 (EST)
 * If someone wants to propose merge or split or rename, they should be required to actually start a discussion on the talk page or make a proposal. Spectrogram (talk) 01:55, March 5, 2023 (EST)

Trim the Smash Bros trophies page
Special:LongPages tells me List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U is the biggest page on the wiki. That's pretty weird! List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS follows it at #3, List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Brawl at #12 and List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Melee #135. I don't have any investment in making List of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! quotes the rightful new biggest page on the wiki but I think a case can be made for trimming the fat.

It's pointless content: I think the trophies page, in a way, best illustrate the follibles of treating Smash Bros like it's a Mario game that happens to have other Nintendo characters in it. There's a certain amount of sense in thinking "Well Mario is playable in this game and he can punch Joker so why not have a page on him" but by going from there and treating everything Smash Bros as it's a Mario game, you end up with a situation where spend a lot of bandwith talking about Doshin the Giant, Mach Rider, Judy from F-Zero, etc etc. Characters that have no relevance or presence in the Mario IP, but happens to have some text written about them in a crossover game Mario & co happens to be playable in.

We have a precedent for trimming Smash content: A recent proposal agreed to merge characters that don't have any substantial appearance beyond Smash Bros to list pages. It's not been enacted yet - but that's not my problem~

It's not original content: An argument to keep Smash stuff in previous discussions is that the current Smash Wiki we're affiliated with is overtly written for hardcore competitive players in mind and that our Smash Content allows for a "Simple English" alternative for people who don,t care about that stuff. Leaving aside the validity of using the perceived failings of another wiki as a factor in our content, this is so not the case here. It's all straight text dumps directly from the game - text that can be read on other websites and video slideshow of those other trophy galleries. In this instance I believe that, yeah, "just go to Smashwiki" is a valid argument.

It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki - while we may have a Link page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple.

What about stickers?: Those have a (minor, barely discernible) gameplay purpose so I thought people might object to the removal of relevant gameplay information.

What about spirits?: I thought of lumping them in this proposa, but the deal is that because of the format of World of Light, a PNG might not represent a Mario character but may involve characters, items or stages as part of the fight gimmick. I don't know what to do, so I'll let someone else do it.

Proposer: Deadline: March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Trim the Super Smash Bros trophies list to only the content relevant to Mario and related franchises

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Cut, cut, cut, cut!
 * 3) Godspeed
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal
 * 6) A bit skeptical, but per proposal.
 * 7) Per proposal.
 * 8) Per proposal.
 * 9) Per proposal.
 * 10) Per proposal
 * 1) Per proposal

Comments
How would this affect characters like Sonic or Link who would be removed from the lists but still have their own pages? Will their trophies still be in their respective profile sections? -- 13:32, March 1, 2023 (EST)
 * My gut response would be to keep them there. It's the same thing as articles mentiong random character have appeared in Captain N - why not? --Glowsquid (talk) 13:55, March 1, 2023 (EST)

What about the weird situations of some generic subjects? Mainly apple because it has a gameplay purpose, just not Mario-based. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:47, March 2, 2023 (EST)

Change the way Super Smash Bros. fighter lists are organised
If I may...

A month ago, a proposal passed to collect Smash fighters who've had no significance within the Mario franchise into lists, each list having a focus on fighter appearances in one particular game. A valuable point was made by the opposers, stating that this particular organisation obfuscates the information and disrupts its continuity, forcing readers to jump between pages to get a thorough impression on only a single character--to say nothing of the fact that any other Mario appearances they had, which are obviously relevant to the wiki, are eviscerated for no reason. The proposal advanced too far in time for me to be able to make changes to it, so I bided my time for another proposal to amend these shortcomings, hence why I personally didn't act upon it.

With that said, the present proposal isn't meant to overturn the nitty gritty of the one before it. Before I list the specific stuff that I'm proposing to change, here's a recap of what's gonna stay put:
 * Obviously, the fighters are still gonna be compiled into lists, with "main article" links to pages for Mario characters and those who had some relevance in the franchises this wiki focuses. The list of affected articles is the same as in the previous proposal.
 * Detailed move listings are going to be laid to rest, or at most condensed into a fighter's appearance section (if that isn't the case already).
 * To avoid inflating these lists, no "profile and statistics" sections will be moved over, especially considering the concurrent proposal to remove trophy information for non-Mario fighters.
 * Contrariwise, information on The Subspace Emissary and Classic Mode routes are going to be covered within these lists, since they may involve Mario elements. To potentially clarify, just as in the current status quo, they will be covered in sub-sections of their respective game appearances. (e.g. "Subspace Emissary info will go in a section under Brawl's.)

Now, onto the proposal's actual matter:
 * The fighters will be organised by the Smash game in which they debuted. Fighters who debuted in the og Super Smash Bros. game will be listed on one page, as should be the case with Super Smash Bros. Melee, Brawl etc. (with Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U debuts covered on a single list). By extension, instead of splitting their individual Smash appearances between different pages, fighters will have all Smash-relevant contained on one page (e.g. "List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros." will have Pikachu's appearances in all Smash games).
 * If the size of these pages and consistency with similar Smash-relevant pages is a concern, the proposal's Support option will be split into having all other appearances in Mario-media covered as well (dubbed "Option 1") and having only the Smash information covered.
 * All or the majority of images related to one fighter's game appearance will be moved into a designated gallery sub-section within its respective appearance section. This is done, in part, to avoid image clutter; however, if you think one or two images are representative enough to be shown front and center in a section, you may so choose, albeit this is up to each user's or group of users' discretion. The images in question include any images that would potentially be orphaned as a result of purging the move lists. (e.g.: An image of Ness's PK Fire move from Brawl will be placed along with all the other Brawl images in Ness' "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" section.) Whether these images or a part of them are necessary to the wiki's well-being is up for another discussion; this proposal only advocates a place for them in the meantime.
 * As an exception, the fighter's main artwork for their most current Smash appearance (as of today, Super Smash Bros. Ultimate) is placed at the top-right of the fighter's section, since it's representative of the character's current state in the series. A caption stating that it is the character's artwork from  should also be included with the image.
 * As part of Option 1, miscellaneous images from other Mario media will be collected into a Gallery section under a character's "Appearances in other Mario-related media" section. The gallery section will have the same tier as the individual Mario game appearances.

A suggestion, nevertheless not obligately imposed by this proposal, is that each fighter who is covered into their own page should have a short, concise statement about an aspect in the Smash series, as per Empty sections. Something along the lines of "This fighter is available by default in, while they are unlockable in ." would work, I think, since it's often the first thing mentioned about a fighter in a given Smash appearance.

All of the changes in Option 1 are exemplified in a userspace page I prepared specially for this proposal, which you can view here: User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. As a point of comparison, you can visualise what the previous proposal espoused at this page: User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters in Super Smash Bros.

Proposer: Deadline: March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT

List fighters by debut Smash game (and include other Mario-related appearances)

 * 1) Imma go with this one, seeing as how this is the Mario Wiki after all, and List of Super Smash Bros. series objects already has info on the F-Zero machine in Mario comics.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) I strongly prefer this method of splitting the fighters over the method established by the previous proposal, as it keeps information about each fighter together on one page, rather than splitting information of each character across five pages. I also do not see harm in keeping additional Mario related content.
 * 4) If we're going to do this, this is a much better organization method.
 * 5) While I would much rather prefer a different option of keeping all characters on one page (while keeping Mario-related appearances), for the sake of article size I'll go with the majority.
 * 6) Per Waluigi Time.
 * 7) This will be much more useful.
 * 8) This will be fine for me.
 * 9) Per Waluigi Time

Merge Mario Kart Tour Kart and Glider variants or Split Character variants: The Threequel
Oh boy, he's at it again

I understand I’ve brought this up many times before, be it through discussions or past proposals, and regardless of which solution has been agreed on thus far, I still feel this situation could be handled better. Thus I feel it necessary to revisit the whole ordeal with Mario Kart Tour’s karts and gliders. The way we cover the characters, karts and gliders is still glaringly inconsistent and it feels it gets more inconsistent the more I think about it; character alternates, kart alternates and glider alternates all share the same differences; different favorite and favored courses, differnet visual appearances and different special items/skills/item bonuses. However the characters do not get their own articles (for reasonable reasons), but the karts and gliders, despite being palette swaps, just as Yoshis or Shy Guys are, can have their own articles, creating that inconsistency between not only the character alternates as a whole, but how we naturally treat other palette swaps. And I feel we need to fix that. I’ve brought this topic up at least twice in previous proposals, with the only passable outcome being to create list articles on character variants (something I have still failed to follow through with). But with the arguments against splitting Yoshi colors, I can’t help but be bothered by how the arguments there contradict with how we handle these karts and gliders. One the main arguments being that splitting the Yoshi colors seems excessive. I still don’t understand how extra articles for different colored Yoshis is excessive, but extra articles for different colored Yoshi karts is not excessive. And while splitting Yoshi colors extends to other species, merging karts and gliders does not extend to nearly as many similar problems, with the only real one being the Mario Kart: Double Dash!! karts and several Mario Kart 8 wheel sets. Those, as well as other arguments, are here with my attempts at answering them:


 * The Karts and Gliders have different statistics: A point I feel is completely null at this point. As I’ve mentioned, character alternates feature the same differences and they are deemed too excessive to split. On top of that, again drawing parallels to the Yoshi debate, the colored species such as Yoshi, Shy Guy and Birdo have the same Tour differences, with Yoshis having even more beyond that across many other games and that’s still not enough to consider their own articles. Heck Shy Guy has variants that are a mix of coloured variants and themed variants (Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) for example, being an alternate of Pink Guy Guy while also being a variant of Shy Guy (Ninja), if that makes any sense). As such, “different stats” is either not enough to warrant a split or there needs to be a general agreement on how different said stats need to be. Until then, karts and gliders having different statistics feels like a nullified point.
 * They look different/have different names: Sure, the Magic Parasol has a different texture than the Peach Parasol, but if having gameplay function isn’t enough, then I fail to see how having a visual difference means anything. The Magic Parasol still looks identical to the Peach Parasol, just with a different visual appearance, just as Santa Mario still looks identical to Mario, just with a different visual appearance (or outfit appearance I should say). It wouldn’t be hard to list variants of karts and gliders in the same way we list variants for characters. Heck, we can list variants off in the same way we list the Mii Racing suits: a table with an image, tour debut and special skill/item bonus. As for naming, it WOULD be a viable argument if several karts didn’t follow the same naming convention as the colored alternates; Blue Biddybuggy, Green Cheep Charger or Gold Clanky Kart are literally the same concept as Blue Yoshi, Green Shy Guy etc. And that’s not even covering the fact that there are gold characters as well as gold karts and gliders. Even ignoring those names, a lot of karts are just “Insert descriptive word” “Insert original Kart name” (Grand Badwagon, Sunny Surf Sailer etc). Compare that to real life; do we consider cars completely different if they’re different colors? I’m pretty sure a blue Nissan Micra and a red Nissan Micra are still Nissan Micras. The naming of karts is generally no different than character alternates.
 * Some of the kart variants have different sizes: Again, gameplay differences of a bigger scale don’t cut it, I can’t see how this would.
 * It’s harder to pinpoint the original kart/glider: Originally, yes, it was and that was a very good point to make. But as of now, both file names and ID numbers can and have proven to be reliable ways to work around this, as we have done with the Butterfly Wings and the Dragonfly/Dozer Dasher idea. Some karts, like the Speeder (Jetsetter), which doesn’t really have a set variant name (as the first variant was just named Green Speeder) don’t really need a kart with the base name, as it kinda already exists from before. The Kiddie Karts are in a similar boat, with neither names indicating which the original variant is, but the file ID seems to point towards the Red Kiddie Kart being the original variant. Which debuts first doesn’t seem to make a difference.
 * Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart 8 also feature palette swapped karts/parts: Indeed they do and they should definitely be under the microscope too. However Mario Kart Double Dash’s palette swapped karts are of fewer numbers when compared to how many variants of karts are in Tour, though in all fairness, these aren’t creating an inconsistency in the same way Tour does. If we do end up merging karts and gliders, THEN it’s something to discuss and I am definitely not against discussing that and I’d fully support the idea of merging kart part variants in Mario Kart 8 (the wheels specifically, as they feature no stat differences and are only palette swaps), but right now, I would like to focus on Tour’s problem and bring up that possibility later. I will say, however, that at the moment, I’d like to leave the Gold Standard, Gold Tires and Gold Glider off the list of things to merge, as they have had consistent appearances across several games, though if the idea of merging them too comes up, I’d gladly discuss that.
 * What about other similar topics: Honestly, this proposal isn’t meant to cover and consider every instance where this happens, it’s meant to concern Mario Kart Tour. If this passes and other areas become inconsistent, we can discuss those instances separately.

All that being said, I think the options are simple. While I do feel there’s a general agreement on how we cover character alternates, for the sake of keeping all options on the table, I will still include the idea of creating articles for character alternates.


 * Split character variants into their own articles: Character alternates like Mario (Santa), Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Dry Bones (Gold) will get their own articles, just as kart and glider variants do. However, as previously noted, this does open up a lot of further inconsistencies, such as how we cover colored variants of characters or even the topics of power-up variants other than Mario (Tanooki Rosalina, Cat Peach, heck even Dr. Luigi).
 * Merge Kart and Glider variants to their parent articles: Kart and Glider alternates, such as the Blue Badwagon or the Shell Parachute, will be merged with the kart/glider they spawned off of, with the variants being listed off in a similar manner to how character alternates are listed off on character pages or how Mii Racing Suits are listed. A separate gallery section can be added to each page to showcase variants. In terms of which are the parent topics, we can easily use file names or IDs to determine this, though many of these variants are pretty easy to spot.
 * Do nothing: We decide to leave everything as is.

I have made a complete list of each kart and glider and the variants they have on my work page. If there is anything I missed or anything to question, let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: March 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Split Character Variants

 * 1)  I agree that we need to treat these things consistently, but I think we need to go the other direction. Aside from the arcade games and Live, which Nintendo does not seem to consider part of the main series, there's little precedent for character "variants" outside of that set by Tour itself. There's just the different colors of Yoshi and Shy Guy for Download Play stuff up until 8, which has... well, still Yoshi and Shy Guy colors, but also the different Villager genders. 8 Deluxe introduces Gold Mario and BotW Link, but also splits the Villagers and Inklings. That's all of two costumes that actually stayed costumes instead of getting their own spot on the character select. And one of them's unlockable and the other one's a post-launch update, so neither of them are exactly "normal". It falls to Tour, then, to set the precedent for how the series treats "costumes"... and it treats them all as their own characters. And why shouldn't it? The other games have stuff like Dry Bowser and Tanooki Mario and Pink Gold Peach, and they've all been listed as separate characters despite being exactly as different as your average Tour variant. This is unlike palette swaps, which have a much stronger precedent of not having their own space on the character select. To summarize: the handheld games set a precedent for color variants not being separate, so they should stay merged. In the entire rest of the main series, in and outside of Tour, non-color variants are treated like separate characters, and therefore they should be split.
 * 2)  No, I don't think this is the right call.
 * 3) Per this.

Merge Kart and Glider Variants

 * 1) I still support this idea. It's easier and more consistent with how we handle the character variants and other palette swapped characters.

Comments
Would articles on separate character variants detail any prior history of that variant? Like, would Mario (Chef) have separate sections on the outfit's appearances in Yoshi's Cookie and Super Mario Odyssey? 08:54, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * Honestly, for those cases, I wouldn't say so. Mario dressing as a chef in Yoshi's Cookie is merely for the theme of the game and Super Mario Odyssey, it's just a costume with no gameplay features. Neither appearance treats the outfit as anything special; Mario's still Mario, just dressed as a chef. It can easily be mentioned that the outfit is based upon said appearance, but otherwise, it would only cover Tour as that's the game it has an actual functional difference from normal Mario (different special item, different favorite/favored courses, different availability across the game's history). I am aware that if we do split variants, it could cause further inconsistencies, such at the commonly mentioned palette swaps or even the power-up variants. But I wanted the option to be there for people who believed it was a better course of action and if it passes, we can work out inconsistencies from there.

@Spectrogram Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your vote. You say you don't think this is the right call, but you're voting for splitting the character variants. Are you merely saying that merging karts and gliders isn't the right call or is there a typo/miswording in there?
 * Pretty much Spectrogram (talk) 10:17, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * Okay, just clearing that up.

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.