MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/42

Stricter Guidelines for "References to Other Games" and "References in Later Games" Sections
DELETED BY PROPOSER

Not sure where to put this or if it even needs a proposal, but I've noticed way too many times that the "References in Other Games" and "References in Later Games" sections are used for extremely minor things (especially characters/enemies reappearing) that are probably coincedental. After all, where do we draw the line? Is every appearance of Mario a direct reference to Donkey Kong? Is every appearance of "256" a Super Paper Mario reference? Wait, what's that? The Paper Mario: Sticker Star page says it is? Uh-oh:

Mario Bros.:
 * Super Paper Mario: Super Dimentio indirectly alludes to the Shellcreepers' weakness during the final battle, when taunting Mario and his party that they shall "wallow in helplessness like upside-down turtles!"

New Super Mario Bros.:
 * Super Mario Bros. 2 - Just like in this game, Small Mario can crouch.
 * Super Mario World - an item is stored on the touchscreen, and can be summoned at any time during each level. This derives directly from Super Mario World. A Monty Mole, which first appeared in this game, appears as a boss called Monty Tank. Wigglers also appeared. Grinders don't appear in New Super Mario Bros., but spiked balls appear in the game, having the same function. Items can be held in a level, just like in the aforementioned game. Also this game features Warp Pipes that can shoot the player into the air like Cannons.
 * Mario Party 4 - Mini Mushroom and Mega Mushroom return with the same function as in this game.

Super Paper Mario:
 * Mario Bros. - Super Dimentio's simile taunt to the party after the first half of the battle has him comparing the party to upside-down turtles as they wallow in helplessness, alluding to how the Shellcreeper enemy was frequently defeated.

Super Mario 3D Land:
 * Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels: Poison Mushrooms return from this game. Mario and Luigi retain their singular characteristics (Mario is more stable and balanced while Luigi jumps higher at the cost of worse traction). The phrase "THANK YOU!!" appears in the last level, but is in English instead.
 * New Super Mario Bros.: Star Coins return as Star Medals and have a similar use (unlock levels). Some flowers and bushes have a similar design to the ones from this game. Also, some levels share a similar design. A lot of returning enemies keep their NSMB designs. Dry Bowser also returns.

Paper Mario: Sticker Star:
 * Super Mario Bros. 2: Shy Guys, Snifits, Pokeys, and Ninjis, which were introduced in this game, appear in this game. Some Pokeys are designed like their first appearance from this game as well. The main theme is a jazzy version of the credits theme with snippets of the main overworld theme.
 * Super Paper Mario: At the beginning of the game, after Mario saves one of the Toads in Decalburg, the latter will say that Bowser crumpled him up 256 times, which is a nod to the running joke in Super Paper Mario, starting with Dimentio claiming that Dimension D makes his attacks "256 times more powerful", followed by Flint Cragley's camera crew stating that the "Rainbowzilla" story was apparently told that amount of times. This number is also the number of cards in the game.

New Super Mario Bros. U:
 * Super Mario World: 3-Up Moons, Bony Beetles, Baby Yoshis, Sumo Bros., Thwimps, and Torpedo Teds return. When Mario reaches the haunted part of Soda Jungle, the screen fades into the submap similar to how it fades in and out in this game. Also, the world map is connected again and a ghost ship, similar to the Sunken Ghost Ship level, appears in this game. The Warp Pipes have a similar structure to Super Mario World. Most of the worlds are named after food again. Some of the world's features are similar to those found in Dinosaur Land (e.g. Acorn Plains having jagged mountains or Soda Jungle being one-third based on the Forest of Illusion). Super Mario World has the exact same number of exits this game has: 96.
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii: Big Urchins, Clampies, Eep Cheeps, Spiny Cheep Cheeps, Cooligans, Scaredy Rats, Huckit Crabs, Stalking Piranha Plants, and River Piranha Plants all return.

Proposer: Deadline: April 1, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) I couldn't disagree more. Reading these, minor, but interesting things were always one of my favorite things to do on this wiki. Listing references and allusions is part of the flavor and actually the mood of the original Mario game. Removing all of these would be uninformative of the rapid usage of numbers like "64", "128", and "256" in games, alongside wonderous references. This things you listed were some of the most interesting things of all about the games, how they tie into eachother. This is something a database cannot disacknowledge. These should stay.
 * 2) - As I've said in the comments twice already, a proposal vaguely calling for rules that already exist is unnecessary. Remove the proposal and just start enforcing the policy (and/or make a collab thread on the forum instead to get help with that and raise awareness).
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
So what ideas do you have with stricter guidelines? Pease give a few examples. Andymii (talk) 07:21, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Disallowing examples that are basically "[character/enemy/item] appeared again", along with things that are probable coincedences anyway because of how obscure they are. Binarystep (talk) 08:52, 25 March 2015 (EDT)

This isn't a Writing Guideline proposal so I moved to to "Changes" for now, but it should actually be removed anyway because what you want already exists, having been proposed and accepted via an October 2013 WG Proposal (after a vague proposal like this one was voted down as being useless, I might add). But like so many quality control measures around here, people don't know about it and the "references to other games" sections have become crap-filled again. While another proposal is unnecessary, making a collaboration thread on the forums would probably be a good idea to try and fix this issue across the wiki. -

I definitely think stuff like Shy Guys, Pokeys, Monty Moles etc. are no longer references to their debut games because they have appeared so many times. Perhaps the limit should be five times, and if it reappears again it shouldn't be a reference to the debut anymore? -- 11:53, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Maybe even less, like three. Nintendo these days rarely discards their characters. Andymii (talk) 15:25, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * I think the rule should be "it isn't a reference unless it's associated with the game in question". Shellcreepers appearing would be a reference, as would Fawful or Goombella, but not something as simple as "[New Super Mario Bros. enemy] appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii". Binarystep (talk) 17:55, 25 March 2015 (EDT)
 * So, something like those Jumping Piranha Plant things from SMW returning in Mario Party, but not something like "everything from SMG is back in SMG2 so it's a reference". -- 12:31, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

The current rules are: Beyond that, the idea is that people should use common sense to tell the difference between recurring enemies or whatever and conscientious callbacks. Of course, many editors don't conduct themselves so selectively and just dump every possible recurrence or coincidence into the Ref and Trivia sections. Just because they do doesn't mean they should, however, and other users are already well within their rights to step in and removing all the non-references. I say again: this proposal is unnecessary. -
 * References:
 * When a unique spite, design or music theme from a past game reappears. Example: a character's sprites and the design of ground blocks from Super Mario Bros. are very recognizable if they appear in a more recent game.
 * A character, location or enemy that was notable exclusively in one game is brought back someway; a particularly strong reference would go so far as to mention the happenings from that earlier game. Example: Goombella and the University of Goom are mentioned in Paper Mario: Sticker Star, clearly referencing to Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.
 * Not references:
 * Any passing physical or gameplay resemblance where there is no actual proof that the purpose was to make a reference. Example: unless an official source proves otherwise, Super Mario 3D World doesn't refer to Wario Land 4 just because Bowser's car bears a little resemblance to the Wario Car.
 * Follow-up games aren't references to the original ones. Example: Super Mario Galaxy 2 isn't a reference to Super Mario Galaxy.
 * When a character, location, object or enemy that became common to the series reappears. Example: Shy Guys appearing in Paper Mario: Sticker Star isn't actually a reference to their debut game, Super Mario Bros. 2.

Toadbrigade5, I think you misunderstood the proposal, it's not saying not to mention arc numbers and things like that on the wiki, it's saying that "references" like "Shy Guys appearing for the millionth time is a reference to Super Mario Bros. 2", "The number 256 appearing at all anywhere for any reason is a direct Super Paper Mario reference" or "Mentioning flipped-over turtles is a reference to the original Mario Bros." are not actually references to specific games. Binarystep (talk) 06:23, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

Okay, can this be removed since the guideline already exists? Binarystep (talk) 20:52, 26 March 2015 (EDT)

Set Clear Rules as to What "Species Origin" Means
DELETED BY PROPOSER

To my knowledge, the "species origin" section on Template:Species-infobox is for the main species a subspecies is descended from (e.g. Shy Guy being the species origin for Snifit), but I keep seeing it used to mean "looks like" or "type of thing" (e.g. "Bottle" being the species origin for PET Bottom), which would be like labeling Dry Bones as a subspecies of "Skeleton" or "Turtle". And while I think this section could have a use if defined better, I'm sure some would say it could just be removed altogether, or replaced with something clearer. It's starting to look like the old "Affiliation" section of Template:Character-infobox, unrelated things are being put in it just to make the infobox slightly bigger. This may not need a proposal, in which case I'll gladly delete it, but to my knowledge, there isn't anything on the wiki actually defining what that section is supposed to be used for.

Proposer: Deadline: April 2, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Make a Clear Definition of What "Species Origin" is For

 * 1) Even though I agree with Mario, I can still see an appeaseable solution to the speculation problem.

Remove the Section Altogether

 * 1) I feel like "species origin" treads too closely with speculation. Whatever purpose it has is already served by "subspecies" (or "related species", which I think is a better name than "subspecies"). The flaw in your support is the lack of explaining "Make a Clear Definition of What 'Species Origin' is For" means since it's not clear exactly how you want to define it.
 * 2) Per LGM. I think the section is unnecessary anyway.
 * 3) Per Mario.

Rename Section

 * 1) Changing my vote, I think it'd be overused a lot less if it was renamed to "Subspecies Of" or something similar.

Comments
This is partly due to the over use of sub-species with little forethought into how it actually applies to subjects broadly or if it's even practical to call something that looks slightly different than something otherwise identical a "subset of the species. If we're being literal with the term, there should only be a handful of subspecies and it would flow counter to how we generally list things (as an example, a Paragoomba wouldn't be a subspecies of Goomba, as the wings denote an evolutionary advancement and both species are frequently found in the same regions, whereas Galoomba would be more of regional cousin). However, we use the term in such away that French Canadian's are a subspecies of both Canadians and the French. Sadly, there probably isn't easy or adequate way to solve this issue this late into the game. And let's all give a big hand to the idiot who first added the term on a whim to the wiki! I'm such a damn asset, aren't I!

What the hell were we talking about again? -- Ghost Jam 03:23, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Wings aren't necessarily an evolutionary advancement. Going off-topic, but technically, if wings weren't evolutionary advantageous, they wouldn't be considered "better". 19:51, 28 March 2015 (EDT)
 * For the sake of argument, I'd say it counts as an advancement in so far as video game logic is being applied, but not in reality of course. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:47, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

Not really important, but here are some things I found on that section:


 * Bottle
 * Golden Diva
 * Hammer
 * Large fish
 * Robot
 * Squeak (on the Squeak article)
 * Thumbtack

Binarystep (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2015 (EDT)

My idea of a "clear definition" is basically obvious, confirmed subspecies only, like how it was originally used before people felt the need to add it to everything, not things that just look kind of similar or are that type of thing. It also means broad terms like "Bee", "Pig", etc. would not be allowed under that section, for the same reason why Goombas aren't a subspecies of Mushroom or something. To be honest, I think a lot of problems would be fixed if it was renamed to "Subspecies Of", which is a lot more clear than "Species Origin". In fact, I'll change my vote. Binarystep (talk) 21:29, 28 March 2015 (EDT)


 * @Mario (and Ghost Jam): If something's not "better" it's usually selected against and erased from populations, rather than leading to specialization - unless it's being dragged along with a good adaptation (due to the genes being close on the chromosomes), or something that started out good and only became bad after it was fixed due to new changes or changes in the environment, etc. Anyway, it doesn't matter if differences are good or bad when determining the taxonomy of a species, just that there are differences, and Ghost Jam's completely right in that the way we use "subspecies" around here is completely wrong. Aside from some RPG enemy sets that only differ in colour, strength and attack strategy, things we call "subspecies" should simply be recognized as full species, and in the interest of uniformity and not making subjective judgment calls, it would be better to even call the biologically similar-enough things "species" too. After all, the wiki's current mix of "species" and "subspecies/sub species/sub-species" is both inconsistent (in many ways) and often just speculating about what's a full species and what's a subspecies, which, as Ghost Jam also pointed out, is frequently done wrong, and periodically leads to rather messy situations. (I.e. is a Shady Paratroopa a Shady Koopa "subspecies" or a Koopa Paratroopa "subspecies", or neither, or both, given how Shady Koopas and Koopa Paratroopas are already "subspecies" of Koopa Troopas?) As a zoologist by trade, it makes me cringe to see the word splattered around the wiki, and it is honestly on my (very long) "to do" list to see it wiped out someday, including replacing the "subspecies" header of the infoboxes with "derived species"/"descendents"/etc. But for now, to make this more on-topic, @Binarystep: imo, what you're looking for for the vague "species origin" header is "parent species" - the species that directly gave rise to a given species (in RL it refers to evolution, but here it's from a game development POV - however the idea's the same: from X came Y, by adding wings/changing the colour/etc.). I also recommend making only one rename/redefine voting header (alongside the removal and leave-it-be options) as you're potentially splitting the vote and the basic idea that it's potentially a useful header if it's fixed is pretty much the same for both options anyway. -
 * Ooo, yeah, but my point is that wings don't necessarily denote an advancement, which implies it's "better" somehow. But anyhow, what about "related species" rather than "subspecies"? You can put the alleged "parent species" on top and put all the related ones underneath without actually assuming the Paragoomba came before the Paragloomba or something like that. I mean, creation-wise, that would make sense, but it seems to be assuming that one form chronologically came before the other. Or, maybe I'm just bringing up arguments that aren't there. 22:49, 31 March 2015 (EDT)
 * I knew that wing thing was wrong when I typed it, but it was the only thing think of to get the point across (I was also going under the assumption most people get all the things involved in the species/subspecies selection process, hell I only have a cursory understanding of it). Regardless, I like the idea of the mass correction of terms and Walkazo's suggestion of derived species (or similar). -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:45, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * To be honest, I don't think "Related Species" would work for that, I think it'd be better for similar species (e.g. Li'l Sparkys are similar to Sparks, but not a subspecies). Binarystep (talk) 04:08, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Perhaps, but I think related is just specific enough to group Paragoomba and its variants or something like that. 15:55, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

You know, I'm going to withdraw this, since it doesn't really need a proposal, I'll try my luck with a forum thread instead. Binarystep (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2015 (EDT)
 * A vote would still be good in the long run, but if you want to have a forum discussion in the meantime, okay (I'll remove the proposal for you later, or maybe tomorrow, but as the discussion's still in progress here, hence I haven't yanked it yet; plus I've been really busy or the last few days). Also, keep in mind that I might just make that "no more subspecies" proposal in the meantime (if I can make the time to write, run and start enforcing it), thus forcing some name changes in the template either way, but no promises. Anyway, I feel it's worth having a specific section for the parent species that the developers spun the later species off of, since the tendency is to make longer lists alphabetical so any nested nuances would be easily lost, and in general, it's best to specifically say "this is x" instead of assuming everyone will understand that the first thing in list y is x. "Derived species" can be the counterpart that's exclusivity used for species that were based on the focal species (such as Colossal Koopa Paratroopa for Gargantua Koopa Troopa), while "related species" (or perhaps "similar species") header can be used for things that are morphologically similar to the species in question, rather than simply listing all other derivative species: we have nav templates for that. -
 * To be honest, I think the Species Origin section could be fixed, just not with that name, which is too confusing (a lot of people seem to think it means "based on", probably because of how on a lot of game wikis, "Origin" refers to a real life thing being referenced). I actually have an idea for a remade species infobox, but I don't know enough about coding to make an example on my sandbox, unfortunately. Also, in response to Mario, I actually have a WIP species chart in my sandbox, showing the most logical (based on appearances, names, behavior, and ingame/manual/guide info if available) species/subspecies relations, I'd like some feedback on it. Binarystep (talk) 20:35, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

Merge the X bosses from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team
DELETED BY PROPOSER

We have done similar things with the X bosses from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. I don't see a reason why these bosses should get serparate page when the X bosses from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story don't receive said treatment. So what should we do? Should we keep them merged or should we separate them?

Proposer: Deadline: April 12, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Serparate the bosses into sub-pages

 * 1) This honestly confuses me. Why should we serparate the optional bosses from one game and not the other?

Comments
For clarification, are you referring to pages like Big Massif X, Grobot X, and Mammoshka X (for Dream Team), and Durmite X, Wisdurm X, and Dark Satellmite X (for Bowser's Inside Story)? You're talking about a discrepancy between the two games' bosses, but they seem to be treated the same way to me. Do you want to merge them, or split them?
 * I'm talking about pages like Antasma X and the Giant Bossses whom are currently merged, unlike those pages you mentioned earlier. [[File:Koopatrol sign.gif]]ExPower[[File:Koopatrol sign.gif]] talk 08:34, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
 * In that case, we already have a proposal that allows them to be split. If they haven't been split, it's simply because nobody's gotten around to them yet. Having a second proposal is simply redundant.
 * That means that I'm deletibg this proposal. Any admin, feel free to archive this. (Thats how you delete a proposal right?) I will split them tomorrow. (For my timezone it is late and I need some sleep). [[File:Koopatrol sign.gif]]ExPower[[File:Koopatrol sign.gif]] talk 16:59, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Just so you know, users can cancel and archive their own proposals within the first three days of creation, but I'll still archive it for you: it's no problemo. -

Pie For Everyone (revist redux)
VETOED BY THE ADMINISTRATORS After much deliberation, we feel that while it's technically a pass, such a wonderful idea needs to be embraced wholeheartedly by the community before it can be enacted, so until more of you wise up and vote smart, there shall continue to be pie for no one.

Over the last year, since we last came together to discuss the often mentioned and regularly requested "pie button" feature, I've been submerging myself into the community to find what you, the users, actually want. More than that, I've been practically pestering my fellow admins on what they actually think of the my suggested pie creation and distribution system, why they felt it wouldn't work, the possible benefits and long term costs of such a system and how we can bring it all to the people.

Taking all the feedback into account and reviewing the results of the past proposals, here are what I have identified as the key concerns:


 * 1) Selection. Not of pie fillings, but of just pie itself. Some stated cake was better, other suggested they would support the idea if milk was offered.
 * 2) Difficulty. This seemed to be the chief concern among my fellow admins, that it would take a large number of resources to set up and that the slightest miss-step will bring the whole thing crashing down.
 * 3) Practicality. A few were concerned that pie, or indeed any food, would be a poor motivator or reward for hard working editors.
 * 4) Dumb/Silly/Stupid. I believe this speaks for itself.

I've crunched the numbers, looked over our resources and I think I've found a solution for all of these points that I hope will quill any further concerns. Now, before we get into this, let's be clear that this is an early draft of ideas for a work in progress. Positive feedback would be the most helpful in rearing the project to it's full potential.

Here is what has been carried over from the previous two proposals, with edits to match current ideas:


 * A single editor may only make use of the pie button once every 24 hours, due to constraints on the currently proposed delivery system (detailed below).
 * Each piece of pie will cost $3 American (or it's equivalent in your home countries currency). This is to cover basic delivery services. This price may need to be adjusted as the project fleshes itself out.
 * Third point to help make proposal look less like I just suddenly decided to do it at 3am, when in actually I've been thinking about this for a week, but I come up with my best ideas under time related pressure.

And to the concerns listed above:

1. I don't think it would be that much of an issue to expand out selection to cover other pastries, perhaps even instituting a "pay for custom" type system in case someone wants something we either don't offer by default or just never thought to add to the list. For this tentative list, it has been suggested that we offer:


 * Doughnut (suggested flavors: jelly (various), glazed, whole wheat & bovine laxative)
 * Cake (suggested flavors: angel food, chocolate, soylent green & Surge(TM))
 * Warm milk (suggested flavors: strawberry, chocolate, vegetable & soy)
 * Pie (suggested flavors: cherry, apple, Dippy's Home Made Sen-pie & Willem Dafoe).

This list is likely to change as the project matures and actual prices are worked out, but I feel this is a good start.

2. To the point of difficulty, I fully accept that the "pie haxoring" method was a bad idea, both for reasons of assuming wiki syntax is stable enough to do anything beyond confusing new editors and for the need to trust Wayoshi to do anything that would be classified as "not ticking off half the wiki staff" (paraphrasing). I have since Rube Goldberg'd a new creation and delivery system that I think makes full use of our resources while also not overtaxing our administrative team.


 * Step 1. Making the pies. I almost feel like I don't need to go into greater detail here, mostly because we are a close community of involved peoples and maybe a bit because I couldn't come up with an adequate way to segue into this one, but the pastries will of course be hand baked by our very own Crocodile Dippy. Perhaps this isn't known to some, but Dippy is a world renown baker and I am proposing we put her underused skills to work for the wiki. It should be noted that this isn't intended as a reassignment of her current position, but an addition to her current responsibilities on the wiki, with the authority to draft editors as needed Thunderdome-style.


 * Step 2. The delivery system. Again dipping into our talented staff pool, many of you know that our very own Walkazo is a Zoologist of some merit. Using her amazing science driven druid powers over nature, my current plan is to have her entrance a flock of carrier birds and a herd of large damn moles who will then deliver ordered pastries in a timely fashion. Distance won't be a problem as Walkazo is an all knowing druid-magician hybrid and can summon creatures to any spot on the planet with a flick of the crazy huge shotgun you see her hauling around in every picture.


 * Step 3. The currency exchange, payment processing, all the little financial things. For that, we have Paypal. Yeah, that's it, Paypal, no joke here, move on.

3 & 4. For both the naysayers and generally negative people in the community, I say the following: I hear you. I hear your complaints, your detraction's and your concerns. Perhaps we don't see eye to eye, but I am here for you. I've been here for you for years and I know how to help you fully understand the untapped potential pie presents for us. Out in NIWA square (so that our brother and sister wiki's can make use of it as well), I am having a small, four foot high by four foot wide pole installed. This part is rather complicated and full of jargon, but a sign will be installed next to said pole so that those who are otherwise concerned with how "dumb" this idea is can present their opinion via an open forum method I'm calling the "sit and spin".

My friends, my family, let me be clear. This is no vanity project. I really feel that the power presented by a full stomach will allow us to reach higher than ever before, to become one of the most powerful wiki's on the internet and to truly reward those among us honestly deserve it. I ask you to think of your fellow editors when voting. I ask you to think of what you want out of the wiki when voting. I ask you to think....of pie.

Proposer: Deadline: April 8, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Pie For Everyone

 * 1) I'm currently hungry so this seems like a great idea!
 * 2) This is a great idea and I'm surprised this hasn't happened yet. Per proposal.
 * 3) Name one other wiki that has pie for everyone.
 * 4) I never get pie anymore.
 * 5) I could go for a nice plate of 3.14 and... oh wait, wrong pie. Eh, who cares. I support both pie and pi.
 * 6) If this fails for the third(?) time I will lose all faith in humanity. It's PIE, PEOPLE!!!!!!!
 * 7) - My flocks of giant (and/or adorable) pie-carrying birds are at your disposal (and so is my shotgun).
 * 8) It will help me in my bird watching, and I'll get some sweets in the deal. It's hard to pass up a genuine treat like this!
 * 9) Equal distribution of wealth.
 * 10) From the depths of my Bake Cave, my minions and I work hard to ensure our pies are of the highest quality and standard for any Mario recolour's consumption. All to make Ghost Jam-senpai notice me~
 * 11) Lol wy not.
 * 12) Considering the grievous lack of pie in the past, this is the best possible way to make sure our members have the energy they need to keep editing.
 * 13) I feel like this can only go well.
 * 14) Think about the possibilities here. With the ability to quickly and cheaply summon pie, we will no longer have to leave our computers for such minor interruptions as "preparing food" or "going to school" or even "getting a real job". With this massive increase in editing time, production will also see a huge increase. With this surge, the quality of our wiki would increase so much that we would take over the wikiverse! This proposal will lead us to WIKIVERSE DOMINATION! Anyone who truly loves MarioWiki will support this proposal!
 * 15) After careful research I have determined that the cake is in fact not a lie and tastes delicious.

Pie For No One

 * 1) pie killed me and my family i cant let it kill ppl again
 * 2) If you're not going to offer a sprinkles option for the doughnut feature then expect an angry mob from me. You wouldn't want that, would you?
 * 3) I don't like pie. # Love the cake, but you gotta have it so Peach delivers it to me personally. I'm the reason this wiki exists, SO CATER TO ME YOU PIECE OF JAM. Also, since you have no choice to choose which species of bird to deliver me the cake (love me some Aphelocoma californica cake studded with whole peanuts), I have to oppose even if I'm not so important. # Per Kart Player 2011. Also, it's a joke proposal. # No it's not.
 * 4) Since you (and me now) voted twice, it clearly is.
 * 5) I don't eat pie, I don't like cake, I don't drink milk and me liking doughnuts is not enough reason for me to support this. Include pancakes or otherwise the good sir in the comments is completely right; this proposal is a joke.
 * 6) Sorry, but I don't think the system will work. Let's face it − even though Ghost Jam is trying to make a workable system, but how are you going to get a valid address? What if someone accidentally hit the "Pie" button? What if someone jokefully hits the pie button over and over, in fact, so much the admins get terrifically annoyed? No matter how "perfect" you make it, this system won't work.
 * 7) No ice cream option equals no go, gho jo.
 * 8) Add ice cream, or else you will pie! (Also, I'm afraid of people abusing the option for throwing instead of eating.)
 * 9) There are far, far, far too many problems with this proposal. It would take such a long time to list them all, but they should be plain to see. # I'm not very active here, so no one should have pies D:.
 * 10) Also voting twice, because everyone agrees with me.
 * 11) } This could end world hunger, but pie is a sugar-loaded fat bomb that will forever endanger the survival of this wiki. If it was pasta I would most definitely support.
 * 12) I will say no pie and that is a per all!

Comments
This is purely a joke, like the last two proposals just like them.
 * What made you guess that, eh? 14:52, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I think it's for real 15:04, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Indeed. One does not joke about pie. -
 * Get out, you shameless sockpuppet. Bring me in the REAL Walkazo and demand her that we include A. californica in this proposal or it's totally no deal. 15:21, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I will do my best to summon some Scrub jays for this enterprise should you ever push the pie button. -
 * Oh, sweet! :D 15:34, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

Chocolate Mario's head looks delicious, by the way. 16:22, 1 April 2015 (EDT)

@Super-Yoshi: It is my understanding that pie is vindictive and doesn't like being voted against. Just saying. @Baby Luigi: A sprinkles option could easily be worked in. :D @Kart Player 2011: While pie is the focus of the proposal, it's not the only thing we'll be offering. Check point number one of concerns. -- Ghost Jam 20:18, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
 * If it's not worked in and if it's not guaranteed I will not change my vote. 16:03, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

As an add-on to this proposal, I suggest we round up all the non-patriots who oppose this proposal, and therefore the growth of the wiki, and ban/execute them. --Vommack (talk) 12:12, 6 April 2015 (EDT)
 * But look what cakes and doughnuts did to Wario! Granted, he deserves such a fate, but we don't! The success of this proposal will only lead to creating fat monstrosities like that! Therefore, the un-success of this proposal will be very, very sad but will save the citizens of MarioWiki from becoming as ugly as Wario. Also, there is still no ice cream, so I guess everyone must pie, except that I still have no clue what that means.
 * Not necessarily, all we need to do is exercise to get rid of the calories and such, if people can't do that then it'll be entirely their fault if they end up looking like Wario.
 * I hear Fawful has a treadmill that will burn calories almost instantly. If you don't believe me, just ask Bowser.

New way to cite YouTube videos
ACCEPTED 10-0

There are many YouTube citations in the wiki that are displayed just like an URL or a "[1]" or something like that. I propose we adopt a way to cite YouTube videos in "References" sections, apart from the external website citation covered by the Citation Policy.

As suggested, it would work as follows:


 * Channel name. (Year, month day of publication). [link to the video using its title]. YouTube. Retrieved [date the reference was added].

Example: "Nintendo. (January 14, 2015). Wii U - Mario Party 10 Trailer. YouTube. Retrieved April 3, 2015."

Proposer: Deadline: April 17, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) - My proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) I guess this will have to do so, yes to that and per all!
 * 4) - Per proposal. More regulation of citations is always desirable, especially now that this suggestion's consistent with the exiting website format.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) This makes sense, so per proposal.
 * 7) No format is better than this one, no matter how hard you try.
 * 8) I like how this makes pages look neater.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) I appreciate new efforts to formalize citation policy. If this passes, I will be happy to help reformat existing youtube citations.

Comments
Good idea to set a specific standard for YouTube videos, and suggesting we include the channel and post date, although for consistency, I think the overall citation should be a bit more in line to our current desired format for websites: "Nintendo. (January 14, 2015). Wii U - Mario Party 10 Trailer. YouTube. Retrieved April 3, 2015." Also, if a video's taken down, it's of no more use to us and needs to be replaced as a citation. If it's region-blocked, that might be worth noting before the retrieval date, although even then, it'd be more ideal to find a reference everyone can see. -


 * OK, thank you. Can I edit the example and change it to yours? -
 * Yes, of course! -
 * Thanks!

If it's taken down, shouldn't we add a notification that the link isn't working anymore rather than remove it? 15:07, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Hmmm, maybe a template would be a good idea to add, rather than just removing things and replacing them with  - at least that'd show there used to be a concrete reason for why we say what we say. -
 * We probably need that template prior to this proposal since I came across a few dead links in the references, and I didn't want to remove them, but I had no other way of notifying that the link is dead. 16:10, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

What if I don't want to have a channel name displayed as a reference on this wiki? Because I made one reference where I directly recorded the damn thing and it has my name as a channel name in it. 16:06, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I believe it was her real name too... 16:10, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * If you don't want people to be aware of your real name, you probably shouldn't put it in a place where anyone can see it. Besides, they'd see it once they follow the link to the video.
 * Google Plus gave me the account name that I never really wanted in the first place that's how I got it. 17:08, 3 April 2015 (EDT)
 * That's frustrating, but shouldn't you be able to change the channel name? Stuff online seems to say you can... -

If we have dead videos or region-locking issues, we could always abuse the exemptions we have as an encyclopedia to reupload the videos to the official MarioWiki account. -- Ghost Jam 20:46, 3 April 2015 (EDT)

Here's my example if it passes: If I want to see the trailer for 200cc in Mario Kart 8, then it will look like this: "Nintendo. (April 1, 2015). Wii U - Mario Kart 8 200cc is Here! Trailer. YouTube. Retrieved April 4, 2015." That will happen! -

Create Template:organization-infobox
NO QUORUM 3-0

I've noticed that pages on organizations or groups either don't use infoboxes, or use Template:species-infobox (Snowmad and Tiki Tak Tribe were the pages I first noticed this on), listing species employed by the organization as sub-species, which looks...odd. Besides, we have infoboxes for other things, like locations, organizations aren't any less important.

Proposer: Deadline: April 23, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Who opposes their own proposal?
 * 2) That makes sense. Per Binarystep.
 * 3) - Per me in the comments. We don't absolutely need it, but it's not like having it would be a bad thing.

Comments
We already have one.--Vommack (talk) 17:18, 16 April 2015 (EDT)
 * That's for RL companies, so it wouldn't be an even worse fit. Although in all honesty, as long as people aren't stupid and only use the "first/latest appearances" and "notable members" headers and not the ones that make no sense, works fine. But I also suppose a different template wouldn't hurt, seeing as we also have, ,  and even , among others. But what exactly do you (Binarystep) want as the new template? It's not good enough to just ask us to approve something without even a vague clue about what you have in mind. -  17:23, 16 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Oh. Yeah, that makes more sense than what I was thinking. The species infobox still work alright though.--Vommack (talk) 17:24, 16 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Maybe we should use the same template as the one which is used by the Koopalings for the Tiki Tak Tribe, but for the snowmad, I'm not sure...-- 17:27, 16 April 2015 (EDT)

I'm not good enough at HTML to make an example, but here are the parameters I'd want it to have:


 * leader - the character in charge of the organization (e.g. Bowser for Koopa Troop)
 * members - notable characters employed by the organization (e.g. Bashmaster for Snowmads)
 * employed_species (probably needs a better name) - species frequently employed by the organization (e.g. the various Tikis for the Tiki Tak Tribe)
 * first_appearance - self-explanatory
 * latest_appearance - self-explanatory

Binarystep (talk) 17:35, 16 April 2015 (EDT)


 * "member_species" might be a better name. Also, for "leader", what happens if leadership changes over the course of a game or going from backstory to a game? And I don't mean things like Bowser getting temporarily usurped but getting back control of the Koopa Troop by the end - more like odd situations like the Shroobs where Princess Shroob was more of an interim leader for the majority of the game, or coups that actually stick. Would both leaders get listed, with parenthesis saying "(first)"/"(former)"/"(current)"/"interim", etc.? And in which case, should that header perhaps read "leader(s)" (but still be coded "leader" for simplicity)? -
 * Either list the most recent leader only, or list multiple ones with brackets to clarify. Binarystep (talk) 20:10, 16 April 2015 (EDT)

Merge post-Special Zone enemies or Split Goomba (SMW:SMA2) and Pokey (SMW:SMA2)
MERGE 5-0

It seems a little incongruous that the Super Mario World enemy skins are split but the Super Mario Advance 2-exclusive ones are not. At the same time, besides the alternate names in the SNES version, there isn't any real sign to consider these different enemies. I think the case for merging is stronger, but I'll leave the option to instead split the rest of them.

Proposer: Deadline: April 24, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Merge post-Special Zone enemies to original enemy articles

 * 1) It was always an aesthetic difference to begin with, and merging eliminates at least one conjectural-titled article.
 * 2) It's true that some sources individualize them, namely the SMW credits and the Mario Mania guide, but these are nothing more than reskins. There are absolutely no differences between them besides the way they look. Also, if them being recognized as individual enemies is what we use as our justification, that'd be quite a slippery slope to follow, considering other enemies that are also individually recognized (case in point, the Green/Red Koopas).
 * 3) I'm going to approve this one because they are part of the original enemies so, per all!
 * 4) I was actually planning on proposing this a while ago, but never got around to it. Per all.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
Exactly how many articles are being affected here? Merging a lot of uniquely-titled and different-looking things could potentially lose us search traffic... And please provide links, instead of expecting everyone to run around searching for the relevant pages and sections themselves: it's literally part of Rule 1 at the top of the page. -
 * I don't think the search traffic argument holds water in this case. People aren't googling en-masse for obscure enemies sprite-swaps featured in one game, and if they do, they're very likely to have heard of the wiki through other means. --Glowsquid (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2015 (EDT)
 * @Time Turner - Mario Mania is kind of vague about it, although it does imply that a bit with the "A New Cast" heading at the end.
 * @Walkazo - If we go with the first option, the following articles are affected: Jumping Pumpkin Plant, Pidgit Bill, Mask Koopa, and Para Mask Koopa (the latter being the conjectural one I mentioned). If we go with the second option, it will keep these pages split and also add the enemies changed in the Game Boy Advance port - the sunglasses "Goomba" (as it was called) and its derivatives, and the stone-like Pokey. The third option, which I've mistakenly left out before, just keeps everything the way it is. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:02, 17 April 2015 (EDT)

Staying neutral for now... On one hand, they look different and are officially named. On the other hand, the guide that named them is the same guide that acted like every behavior of Chargin' Chuck was its own species. If these are going to be merged, shouldn't the different types of Boo Buddies (except Block, as it does something other than move differently) be merged as well? Binarystep (talk) 23:37, 17 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Chargin' Chucks and Boo Buddies could also probably be addressed at some point as they might be considered another example of incongruity, but this proposal is specifically about the enemies whose graphics change by completing the Funky course, not including ones given separate identification in guide material. It's not quite the same thing, especially since Chargin' Chucks and Boo Buddies have different interactions with the player. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2015 (EDT)

Use "wide image" templates for level maps and the like
CREATE 5-0

In pages about levels or worlds such as this, this and this, since the images showing the maps are wide, they are displayed in a very small size, making them hard to see clearly unless you click the image.

Well, Wikipedia has a template, which can be useful for cases like these. We could use both the 100% wide and 45% (or another size) wide variations, depending on the case.

Proposer: Deadline: April 25, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) My proposal.
 * 2) Per Mr. Ice Bro.
 * 3) - Per proposal: scrollboxes for images can be pretty handy.
 * 4) I love this idea! It makes it so one does not have to click on an image to enlarge it; plus, you get a clearer image.
 * 5) A great idea indeed! I'll approve this proposal with a per all!

Stop Listing Sub-Species on Generic Real-World Species Pages
PASSED 5-0

I've noticed that a lot of species pages (like Cooligan or Snaps to give two examples) are listed as "sub-species" of generic real-world species (e.g. Bee, Crab, Penguin), instead of being labeled independent species. At first, this makes sense, as they're clearly based on said species, but if you consider that we don't call Koopas a sub-species of Turtle or Goombas a sub-species of Mushroom, it starts to look inconsistent. I've also noticed the reverse happening, where real-world species articles have long sub-species sections consisting of every species that resembles it, even though that is literally not what "sub-species"/"species origin" means at all. While I'm not saying we should delete all real-world species pages (though the ones that consist of "background thing what looks like species" should probably be removed), I don't think we should list species from the games as being directly related to them, as there's a difference between a real-life inspiration and an in-universe relation.

tl;dr not everything has to be a subspecies of something, infoboxes don't have a minimum length.

Proposer: Deadline: April 26, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) Per Binary.
 * 3) Per both on this case!
 * 4) per
 * 5) Per Binarystep.

Comments
Note that real-world species could still have "Related Species" sections, and list species based on them there. Binarystep (talk) 20:03, 19 April 2015 (EDT)

Create Template:Organization-infobox
CREATE 7-0

I've noticed that pages on organizations or groups either don't use infoboxes, or use Template:species-infobox (Snowmad and Tiki Tak Tribe were the pages I first noticed this on), listing species employed by the organization as sub-species, which looks...odd. Besides, we have infoboxes for other things, like locations, organizations aren't any less important. The last proposal was a vote short of passing, so I'm reposting this to get more attention.

Proposer: Deadline: May 1, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) - Per what I said in the last proposal.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all. Species and organizations should be differentiated.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) I am going to approve on this one with an example for the Koopa Troop: The leader of the group is Bowser, the species is a Koopa, and the members of the group are Bowser Jr., the Koopalings, Lakitu, and more! So, I'm approving this proposal!
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
For reference, the parameters (aside from the obvious ones included in every infobox) would be: Binarystep (talk) 22:08, 24 April 2015 (EDT)
 * leader (the character in charge of the organization)
 * member_species (species frequently employed by the organization)
 * members (notable members)

Create Template:Pmitembox
DON'T CREATE 2-4

I've noticed we're using Template:Recipe-Infobox for Paper Mario series items, which leads to saying things like that Repel Gel or Yellow Berries are "Made by Tayce T.", which looks weird. Besides, a Paper Mario item infobox would give us a convenient place to list the non-HP/FP-related effects of some items, maybe even what enemies drop them, etc.

Proposer: Deadline: May 2, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) This sounds like a really good idea and could be helpful in the future. Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) Per Megadardery's comment below, even if it isn't exactly an opposing vote. Would rather see a redesign of the current infobox.
 * 2) Unneccessary, see my comment below.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - Per Megadardery. We have enough maintenance projects in need of completion already: we don't need to add superfluous template replacement work to the to-do lists.

Comments
Not voting -yet- but you know that the "Made by" parameter is optional. I would prefer if we used that Recipe-Infobox template for all the items in the PM series with a few more tweaks (ignore the name of the template), like adding a description parameter. And potentially adding a "Gotten from" (seriously don't have a clue on what to name this, as this should fit both cases: the item being dropped by an enemy, or being bought from a shop) as another parameter. What I am getting at is that instead of a new template -especially because it is already used in many non-recipes items-, we can use the existing template but with a few modifications (again, ignore the name of the template.) If you want to know how it would look like, I can make a draft. But again, not all the information should be in the infobox, some can be left to the article.-- 19:50, 25 April 2015 (EDT)


 * Even another look into this, makes me feel that dropped by, or bought from is unnecessary. In extreme cases, he article should have covered that. Many Items can be dropped, or bought from various enemies or shops respectively. This could become a clutter if every single instance is put into the infobox, and if not, and simply listed as "Various", it becomes very unneeded. So, I think, should be used instead for this purpose, with little to no modifications. (Maybe only the description)-- 08:44, 28 April 2015 (EDT)

Make Template:Questionable-source
NO QUORUM 1-1

I've noticed a lot of pages with names that are technically sourced, but use unreliable sources like the Super Mario Daijiten (see: Most Wario Land enemies/bosses). Since putting a citation and marking it with refneeded could look confusing, my solution is an easy-to-understand template at the top of the page, something like this.

Proposer: Deadline: May 11, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my reasons stated above.

Oppose

 * 1) - It would be better to just have something like Wikipedia's "better source" template to flag iffy refs: then it could be used for situations besides just the ones affecting article titles, like how the new  template can be used for too-vague print refs.

Comments
I have another idea for the template that says something to the effect of "Some of the sources cited on this page are unreliable, replace them with better ones if possible", would that be better? Binarystep (talk) 15:54, 4 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Like a -style notice template? That idea has a bit more merit, but I feel like it's better just sticking with the system flagging the specific problems: no need to advertise twice over that we suck at citing our sources for the most part. -
 * I suppose, but refneeded implies a lack of a source, while this is more "better source needed". Binarystep (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2015 (EDT)
 * Like I said in my vote, we should just make more templates like refneeded (rather than banner notice templates) for flagging both less-than-ideal sources and broken links, hence "refneeded system". -
 * Ah, alright then. Binarystep (talk) 16:55, 7 May 2015 (EDT)

Stop Using the "Super Mario Daijiten" as a Source
KEEP 1-5

Let me preface this by saying that the "Super Mario Daijiten (Big Dictionary)" has proved to be correct on some other occasions in the past. However, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So, what is this "Big Dictionary"? To put it simply, it is us, but in Japanese: it's a compilation of everything in the Mario series (and the Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario series) with some information about them. Naturally, this includes all of those obscure enemies from the older platformers, like Scubi, Bībī, Sutāzu, and many more, though these names were either taken from or changed to ones from the Daijiten. One immediate problem is noticeable: Japanese names are hard to search for. Names taken from Japanese sources are (supposed to be) written out not with a translation, but with the romanization, avoiding the problem of subjective translations. This also includes any special characters with macrons above them, and this results in links being difficult to use with them, for the simple reason that a very large portion of readers wouldn't be able to type these letters, and the wiki isn't able to recognize substitute letters, so "Sutazu" would not work as a link or a search term for "Sutāzu", and it's a tedious process to get to the article of relevance. There's also the point of English and Japanese names looking rather messy side-by-side, though that's mostly personal preference. Of course, these points are completely ignored if they're the only official names that we can find, and therein lies the problem.

As mentioned above, the site is basically us with a different language, and that includes the fact that it is a fan site, subject to all of the follies that editors can employ. If it doesn't explicitly display that the name is from an official source, listed here, it cannot be used since it could easily just be a made-up name. Even if other similar sites share the name with the Daijiten, if they don't have an official source, it doesn't count: they could have easily taken the name from each other, validating the name by virtue of lazy editing. Even besides that, however, there's no reason for all of the names for a certain game to be correct if a few of them turn out to be correct. For example, I've picked up the Prima guide for Yoshi's Island DS, and it turns out that most of the enemies from that game (on this wiki, at least) take their names from this guide - emphasis on most. Scorchit, originally "Zeus Guy", and Toober Guy, originally "Tube Guy", went under different names between the guide and the wiki, but since some of the other names were backed up with "is good is from book", all of them were thought to come from the book. This is faulty logic and using such a broad generalization really can't be healthy for the wiki.

While I understand that some of the conjectural names weren't very descriptive (Dōryī, for example, was "Plant"), I'd rather have a million "Birds" and "Crabs" than a name that is not only hard to link to and search for, but a name that has a good chance of being just as conjectural as the other names. Even for a site that's had a good track record, I feel like allowing the site to be used for all names is just opening the floodgates for name-related debacles, and I'd rather avoid that. Note: this proposal, if it succeeds, would involve removing all names that are currently "sourced" with the Daijiten, as well as renaming articles with those names to English variants.

Proposer: Deadline: May 14, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Remove it

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Do not remove it

 * 1) - It would be a waste to wholesale dismiss the Daijitan as a resource and potentially move countless pages away from legitimate names to pure conjecture (and scrap dozens if not hundreds more  entries) just because it's been wrong a few times. We're no better than them when it comes to making periodic mistakes, rampant eschewing of citations, and the occasional rogue user just making stuff up: we might as well tell people to ignore us as a resource too. It would be better to simply be transparent by citing them whenever we use them and marking those citations as less-than-ideal with a "better source" template, the same as we would with Wikipedia references or any other iffy, yet better-than-nothing references. The anti-Japanese arguments are meaningless: we will always have Japanese and other non-English names to deal with, mixed in with the made-up English names (and/or in the foreignname templates). Redirects get around the macrons without any grief for searchers or editors who don't want to bother copy and paste a macron from somewhere else for the link, and policy actually says redirects should be created for that reason: any macron-bearing pagename without a redirect is an oversight.
 * 2) Changing my vote, per Walkazo. Removing names that are possibly correct and replacing them with names we made up is a horrible idea.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all!

Comments
As passing this proposal would mark many of our articles as conjectural titles, one strategy we could employ is to see the references of each page on the Super Mario Daijiten (if there is one). That way, we can see still use the Daijiten to indirectly get official information, which we can in turn cite. Andymii (talk) 16:44, 10 May 2015 (EDT)
 * I made the assumption that, if the Daijiten used sources, we would have used them in the first place instead of citing the Daijiten. It's a fair point to make, though, but I'm not exactly fluent enough to navigate the site, and some online translation probably won't help. Would you happen to be able to go through the site?

Unfortunately, no. I guess it is up to our Japanese-fluent users to help us out now. However, there is a function though on Google Translate that translate whole entire websites, so that might be useful in getting the general idea, maybe even enough so we can get official information accurately without knowing much of the language. Andymii (talk) 09:50, 11 May 2015 (EDT)

Just noting here that I retracted my vote in favor of removing it. I agree with Walkazo's argument enough to change my mind, but not enough to fully cast a vote either direction now, as it hinges on a type of template that we currently (to my knowledge, at least) do not employ. -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 14:51, 11 May 2015 (EDT)
 * The template exists now, for the record. -


 * Neat. -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 16:28, 13 May 2015 (EDT)