Talk:Chancellor

Merge with Minister?
If the two characters are the same name in Japan, and even in the American games they both look very similar (moustache, green spots, etc.) and play similar roles in the goverment, should we merge the two pages into one? 09:40, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, there's no confirmation on them being the same character. They do look similar, though. If they had had the same name everywhere, then they could've been the same person (Thus I have merged the two Merlon pages). I don't know what to say. IMO, they seem like the same person(How'd he get demoted to Minister in PM, I dunno), but hard to say.
 * Previously, we've had this problem with Kamek. NoA named him Kamek instead of following NoJ and naming him after his species.  We wondered: should Kamek be merged with Magikoopa because his Japanese name is the same?  We decided not to based on Yoshi, Birdo, and Toad, major players who are named after their species.  This is a little different though.  Still, we didn't create separate articles for Princess Toadstool and Princess Peach.  14:48, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well... it's kind of hard, because as of phtsical appearance, the main thing is the design on their mushroom, and their Moustache. The mustaches are different colors in each game(What, did he get older in PM?), and as for mushroom design, there's just so many others with the same pattern. (As you can see, Herb T. even has the mustache going on). I think there still might be some info/proof lacking just yet to merge these articles. There might be an in-game hint of somekind, loosely connecting the two characters, but as for now, there's no sure way of knowing.


 * For now I think just linking to the other article is fine. I'd like to do as little conjecturing as possible. ;)  15:24, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The Minister and Chancellor have the same title in Japan - Kinoko Daijin (Mushroom Cabinet Minister). I think it's safe to say that they're the same character, and remember, if NoA tampers with it, he technically wasn't demoted. LinkTheLefty 15:14, 12 November 2008 (EST)
 * Plus, the only big difference in his design is the white mustache. He could have simply aged somewhat by Paper Mario. Remember, there are actually a lot more references to Super Mario RPG that got lost in translation either due to separate translators or legal reasons, so I think it's safe to say it's meant to be the same character. LinkTheLefty 22:10, 13 April 2010 (EDT)

Toadsworth
Since Stumpers wanted to know when Toadsworth was referred to as a chancellor: In Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Goombella tells the player that Toadsworth is the Mushroom Kingdom's chancellor. At least she does so in the German translation (and the German translation is based on the Japanese original). --Grandy02 17:00, 12 November 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks, Grandy! I suppose it would make sense: the Chancellor becomes the Minister, and then Toadsworth took over his old position, perhaps?  19:23, 12 November 2008 (EST)

Differences between Chancellor and Toad Minister
List of differences between the Chancellor and the Toad Minister:
 * The Chancellor has a black moustache, while the Toad Minister has a white one.
 * The Chancellor's wearing is distinctively the same as the normal Toads, while the Toad Minister wears a green shirt with a red and yellow vest (very similar to the Grass Land King's vest in All-Stars and Game Boy Advance remake.

Their Japanese names are the same, but they have some differences in appearance. 05:53, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * I think it would be speculating to merge the two just on Japanese name and on two similar roles from two very different games. 13:12, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * Still, by this logic, one could make a case that Iggy Koopa is different from Iggy Koopa. Now saying that he was some sort of prototypical Toadsworth would be speculation, but this seems more inferential to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:14, 30 August 2018 (EDT)
 * We've been over this with the Wilt Shroom and the Dried Shroom before--just because the Japanese name is identical doesn't make for a merged page. The two have enough differences in roles to warrant differing pages.  ~Camwood777  (talk)  22:06, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Also, Needlenoses and Spiked Fun Guys have the same name as Pokey in Japanese, but have a different English name. -- 03:58, 21 October 2018 (EDT)

Merge this page with Minister
The two articles are too similar to remain separate, as proven by a list of differences above, which is:
 * The Chancellor has a black mustache, while the Toad Minister has a white one.
 * The Chancellor's wearing is distinctively the same as the normal Toads, while the Toad Minister wears a green shirt with a red and yellow vest (very similar to the Grass Land King's vest in All-Stars and Game Boy Advance remake.

Those differences are too little to have this article remain separate.

Proposer: Deadline: December 27, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 3, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 10, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Merge

 * 1) Per Proposal.
 * 2) I'm all for having only one proto-Toadsworth article, given the similarities between the two.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal. The two characters are likely the same.
 * 5) Per all. Paper Mario had a ton of callbacks to Super Mario RPG.
 * 6) Per all, especially Glowsquid below.

Don't Merge

 * 1) Per what Bazooka Mario and Camwood777 said above. I'm also not hyped in merging.
 * 2) The Japanese name and similar appearances are a start, but I'll only support if their personalities are mostly the same too (and similar in general to Toadsworth himself).
 * 3) I don't see the real need to merge the two compared to just having two separate pages that can deal with a short paragraph of similarities. It'll avoid speculation altogether, unlike merging.
 * 4) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 5) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 6) Changed my vote, as even if there are intended to be the same person, any potential speculation should be avoided. Per all.
 * 7) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 8) } Per all.
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
I'm not too hyped in merging. -- 02:04, 13 December 2018 (EST)
 * Green cap, gold-trimmed robes, same role, proto-Toadsworth, same JP name, same lack of plot importance, all in all pretty similar. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:17, 13 December 2018 (EST)
 * Then why is his mustache white? -- 02:04, 14 December 2018 (EST)
 * Because hair grays as people get older? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:21, 14 December 2018 (EST)

The only thing left for me to agree that they are one and the same is if the Minister has roughly the same recurring personality trait as the Chancellor (and, all in all, the same personality as Toadsworth): constantly worrying about Peach's safety. 10:12, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * Chancellor definitely does, and the few times Minister is seen, that seems to be his main concern. Admittedly, during that time, everyone's locked in the castle, so that'd sorta be his job anyway. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * I don't think that's enough to draw me in. The Minister needs to be really worried about Peach almost all the time, not because he knows Peach is actually in mortal danger. 12:52, 18 December 2018 (EST)
 * He only appears at three parts of the game, one of which is with nearly every other NPC. You only get to speak with him in two instances, only one of which is repeatable after the following important event (and that instance also being very close to the end), so there's no telling how he feels for over 90% of the game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:03, 18 December 2018 (EST)

Along with other subjects like Star Hill and several recurring items, it's pretty clear that this character is one of the things that survived the transition from Super Mario RPG 2. Having said that, I've considered reapproaching the topic of having the Paper Mario subjects somehow split or distinguished from their counterparts due to Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam (I know it was put to a proposal, but it's incredibly awkward when our paper character articles list their first appearances as Paper Jam despite the name "Paper Mario" existing for the character since at least Super Smash Bros. Melee, not to mention certain other things of note like Paper Jam having Tower Power Pokey from the previous game and directly hinting at the then-upcoming paper Koopalings make it blatantly obvious that it's supposed to be the same Paper Mario in these games). Not sure how it would go about though - the cleanest method I thought of was maybe proposing to mimic the way Wookieepedia uses tabs for "Canon" and "Legends" articles, but that probably wouldn't be too feasible. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:03, 15 December 2018 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty We should (re)start the proposal IMO. Is it for splitting the Paper Mario counterparts from the original characters? -- 09:47, 16 December 2018 (EST)
 * That's the idea, with possibly an option to include items and locations (which could mean that Star Hill gets split three ways). LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2018 (EST)

Regarding "speculation," please recall that there is a difference between speculation and inference. If it were speculation, there'd be little-to-no ground to stand on, but with inference, a leap of logic can be made if there is enough evidence without an official statement of "these are the exact same characters." Please remember the principle of "show, don't tell." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:14, 20 December 2018 (EST)
 * "Enough evidence". There is not enough evidence. This is speculation on two characters on two very different games. Paper Mario may have nods to Super Mario RPG and original intention may be Paper Mario being a sequel to Super Mario RPG but Paper Mario turned out to be a very different game and has its own continuity and series. We can write information about those nods, but to say they're the same, I think, is a stretch. 20:44, 23 December 2018 (EST)
 * What happened to the "continuity" by Color Splash? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:55, 25 December 2018 (EST)
 * There was clearly a continuity in the original games though, which technically stuck around by Sticker Star thanks to the Goombella cameo. -- 22:46, 25 December 2018 (EST)
 * That continuity wasn't lacking in SMRPG, not only through this, but through things like Star Hill/Shooting Star Summit and the castle having a surrounding village. Back in those days, anything was basically assumed continuity with

every other thing, hence Luigi's diary mentioning a few of the random spinoffs. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:49, 25 December 2018 (EST)

I have no idea why having the SMRPG and PM depictions of Star Hill on the same page was uncontroversial, but the idea that two characrters who have similar appearances, identical roles in the respective games they appear in, very similar personalities for their brief speaking role, one of them appearing in what was originally intended to be a sequel to the other character's game and which retains multiple overt and subtle links to its original lineage, and who have the same name in the source language of both games may infact be the same character is just too radical of a leap of logic to make. --Glowsquid (talk) 10:04, 28 December 2018 (EST)
 * The proposal had far less votes, for starters (4 votes), and the page history has shown that there has been action to merge the Star Hills too. I feel there's a consistency problem with how we deal with two otherwise different objects with shared names/traits with two failed attempts to merge Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom. I find it strange we don't have articles on the separate Star Hills in addition to a page about Star Hill location, but we do, as well as having a one big page on them, on the different Rainbow Roads, Luigi's Mansions, Mario Circuits, and so on... Anyhow, I find it far more useful if we had separate pages on the Star Hills or the Toad Towns in addition to one big page, as we've done with some recurring locations; it'll help cut down article bloat and we have more leeway for detail. But that's a different subject, and tbh, not sure if it's even applicable to Chancellor. 13:18, 4 January 2019 (EST)

Merge to Minister: REDUX
These characters not only have the same lang-of-orig name and role between games of which the latter is an intentional spiritual successor to the former, they have a very similar appearance, the exact same personality, and basically the same speaking patterns. Let's compare some lines:

Without further context, these could easily come from the same character in the same game. And considering we have Dried Shroom, Ultra Shroom, and Shooting Star Summit merged with their SMRPG iterations, this split seems like an odd relic.

One last thing, I checked, and "chancellor" and "minister" are effectively synonyms, being both vague terms for "head of government." They can contextually carry different connotations, but definition-wise it's up to one's own preference. In that respect, the English "names" are functionally the same too, so there's really no reason to not merge pre-Toadsworth exhibit A to pre-Toadsworth exhibit B.

Proposer: Deadline: April 4, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to April 11, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to April 18, 2022, 23:59 GMT Extended to April 25, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per
 * 2) - Per proposal. I think it makes sense to cover the green-capped mustachioed toad minister in Super Mario RPG and the green-capped mustachioed toad minister in the spiritual successor to Super Mario RPG in the same page.
 * 3) - After some thought and a few more points raised in the comments, I'm leaning towards support. Sure, this might not -literally- be the same character for reasons I've gone over, but I want to bring up another Super Mario RPG-crossing proposal: Shaman. Technically speaking, Shaman might be owned by Square Enix, and so the similar Paper Mario characters can't officially be called the same Shamen, even if they are an allusion to them (this might be why they were retired after the first three Paper Mario games). Despite this, the proposal decided to keep classing the Paper Mario characters as Shaman characters. We can't have it both ways: either similar arguments apply here, or we rethink if the Paper Mario characters ought to be wholly separate entities as well.
 * 4)  - Per LinkTheLefty's points really. I also mentioned my big deal in the comments.
 * 5) Initially opposed, but after looking closer, I do agree to a merge now. After all, Japanese names aren't the sole split-n-merge decider, just look at Bull's-Eye Bill. We ain't making a page for all of its variants despite the Japanese name, nor are we re-arranging everything Big Boo-related because of its Japanese names.
 * 6) - per proposal
 * 7) - Per proposal, specifically the point about items/locations in both games not being covered separately.

Oppose

 * 1) Per LinkTheLefty, but also I just think it's speculation to say any two characters are the same definitively until it's officially confirmed.
 * 2) Speculation again. In any case, LinkTheLefty's reasoning is even better.
 * 3) Per LTL.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all and my previous statements, and initial thoughts above. I also still stands my thoughts.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all, but this is just a leaning, as I can see the case brought forward as well that he is the same character.

Comments
I also want to add, in Japanese, both the Chancellor and the Minister have a penchant for referring to Mario as 「マリオどの」 (Mario-dono, Master Mario) - just like Toadsworth. However, there's only one thing that doesn't add up. In Paper Mario, at the beginning of the Peach scene between chapters 5 & 6, Twink muses how Peach has gotten bolder about sneaking around lately, and then she sarcastically responds: "I'm behaving like a delicate princess, just like the Ministers taught me to!" And yes, this plural is present in the Japanese version: 「だいじんたちの いいつけどおり ちゃんと お姫さまらしく おしとやかに してるわよ」 note 「だいじんたち」 (Daijin-tachi, Ministers). This indicates that there is/was at least one other Minister, but we simply don't see any others - unless that's alluding to the off-screen, Super Mario RPG one as a separate character. What do you make of that? Additionally, I'm unsure about Chancellor's copyright sitch: he's derived from Nintendo-owned Toad but he may be considered an original character, and as far as I know those belong to Square. EDIT: Oh, another thing related to speech patterns: in the Japanese version of Super Mario RPG, the Chancellor often refers to himself in the third person - he doesn't appear to demonstrate that quirk in Mario Story. EDIT2: Also, it turns out that their Japanese names aren't completely identical like it was believed for the longest time: the Chancellor is 「キノコ大臣」 (Kinoko Daijin, Mushroom Minister) while the Minister is the simpler 「だいじん」 (Daijin, Minister) - I think the confusion stemmed from "Toad Minister", which looks more like localization of the former rather than the latter. Granted, I should mention that Super Mario RPG shortens 「キノコ大臣」 to 「大臣」 sometimes, but it's likely due to text space, and again, there's still the other matters. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:04, March 21, 2022 (EDT)
 * With the copyright thing, since Nintendo owns the species and he's such a generic idea for a character, that most likely wouldn't matter (though it could explain Toadsworth). As for the truncated title, that's likely to do with how little importance he has in PM's plot. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:20, March 21, 2022 (EDT)
 * Okay, since I don't know Japanese, I'd like to ask: does 「だいじんたち」 necessarily imply a group of ministers? I ask because I was just putting some stuff into DeepL, and I noticed 「マリオたち」 being translated as "Mario and his friends", and something like "the Minister and the others" would make more sense in this context. Blinker (talk) 18:48, March 23, 2022 (EDT)
 * Good point. Yes, that's another way to read that. Let me just say for the record that I'm more neutral about this merge than necessarily opposed to it: to recap, I think there's a case for (reminiscent design [down to the mustache shape and posture], similar role in the castle [one of the Princess's top aides], prototypical Toadsworth quirks ["Mario-dono"]) and against (different Japanese speaking styles [Woolsey might've even tried to preserve the original third-person quirk as a "royal we" in English though it slips on occasion and it's not obvious since he's hardly ever alone], slightly changed/simplified title [in the game at least, not accounting for any guides], potential legalities [could it factor into why Toadsworth's appearances by extension have been more sporadic?]). LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:10, March 23, 2022 (EDT)

Before I vote, I want to mention that even if these two are separate characters, that doesn't change the fact that it's another Toad chancellor and that they could just be more than one, just like Petey Piranha and Birdo. Take for instance the Sand Birds which was determined to be merged. To be fair, LTL's points and the fact that even Hewer feels that this is pure speculation are giving me the idea to oppose. Wikiboy10 (talk) 07:24, March 25, 2022 (EDT)
 * Actually, I think that's a fair point to bring up too. There are plenty of articles where the subject isn't always literally the same, but because of extreme conceptual similarities they are covered in the same article (Sand Bird is your example; I can point to the "Big" series of enemies, which are self-explanatory size variants where devs don't necessarily have to reference each other to reach the same point, as well as shared locations and common game elements within reason, etc). Though I don't think it's too often that this applies to a character specifically unless it's a species rep, whereas here we have subjects with the same job. I do want to point out that my glance at online Japanese circles, which tend to be somewhat strict with name/design changes such as formerly considering Lady and Pauline to be separate characters until they were yelled at politely told otherwise in Pauline's Smash trophy, do generally consider the Chancellor/Minister to be the same character, and don't even bring up name differences, so I could be missing a guide or something. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:57, March 25, 2022 (EDT)

@Ray Trace: it's less about it being the same character (which I didn't agree with) and more about it being the same concept. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:04, April 24, 2022 (EDT)

Comments

 * So, most of the opposing votes were for LinkTheLefty having opposed this proposal, but LTL found that the Chancellor/Minister are considered to be the same character by Japanese guides. Now what do we do? PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:53, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * To be clear, I was really neutral until I realized the support was approaching it from the angle of the proto-Toadsworth concept/role rather than as literally the same character, which I had some reason to doubt. I do intend to follow through with another Shaman proposal at some point for internal consistency now that it didn't pass again - that wasn't idle talk. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:08, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Merge with Minister: Take 3
Giving this a shot. Above, I mentioned that after the second proposal's failure, I'd make another Shaman proposal for consistency. What changed? Goomboss. That merge has been tried several times, but finally succeeded in no small part due to Swallow's suggestion. So, I'd like to apply that reasoning here. I've changed my mind mid-proposal last time, so I've laid out my support and oppose reasons in the comments, which you can refer to if you need a refresher. But to get to the point, the bottom line still stands: whether or not these are literally supposed to be the same individual is not the true takeaway here, but rather, it is that both characters are the same proto-Toadsworth concept. They serve the exact same role, and the mannerisms of both portrayals are extremely similar to Toadsworth, especially in Japanese versions. In the end, covering prototypical Toadsworth in one article is reasonable. Unlike the above proposals, I'm adding a vice-versa option: merge Toad Minister with Chancellor instead, so that Chancellor will be the title of the merged article rather than Toad Minister. The main reason for this is that "Chancellor" has more screentime and has dozens of instances where his name shows up in game text, whereas the full name "Toad Minister" only shows up in a single semiobscure line of text (Goombario's Tattle) and "Minister" outweighs it few more times, so the latter was probably the intended name all along.

Proposer: Deadline: December 31, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge Chancellor with Toad Minister

 * 1) Primary choice: similar roles, similar Japanese names, similarly minor compared to the rest of their respective games, similar cap spot color, and also the fact that Paper Mario was originally intended to be Super Mario RPG 2, so of course Paper Mario has a couple concepts originally from Super Mario RPG, such as the Merlon family being directly inspired from the Shamans, and the Shooting Star Summit having a nearly identical Japanese name to that of Star Hill (and is merged with said article, as is Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time's Star Hill). I'm fine with either option, but I pick this one as primary because "Toad Minister" is the more recent name; plus that SMRPG's translator Ted Woolsey has given classic enemies completely different names that only appear in SMRPG (such as Cheep Cheep to Goby).
 * 2) Primary choice per Arend.
 * 3) Primary choice, per Arend. And the Goomboss merge shouldn't have happened, but this is long overdue.
 * 4) Per Arend.
 * 5) Per Arend.

Merge Toad Minister with Chancellor

 * 1) Per the rationale that pushed the Goomboss merge but I really will revisit Shaman if this fails again.
 * 2) - Per my "concept, not individual" preference.
 * 3) Secondary choice.
 * 4) Honestly, this is less about a character and more about generic chancellor-type characters that have similar broad names. If these chancellors had two completely different names (like the first one being Bob and the other being Tom), I think this would be a different story.
 * 5) Secondary choice.

Keep Chancellor and Toad Minister split

 * 1) Per the previous opposition, this is still speculation without hard official evidence and that's not something I think we should be basing merges on, even if they're similar characters. Similarity =/= the same thing. I also fail to see what Goomboss changes, as I feel like that merge had more solid evidence in its favour than this.

Comments
@Hewer: How was the Goomboss merge any more compelling, considering that the Chestnut King was completely off-screen and was described (albeit embellished) in a totally different manner? I know the translations in other languages had a hand in it, but it'd be unfair to point to that as a reason since official European localizations of Super Mario RPG don't exist, and even they somehow did, they would be much more limited owing to practices and restrictions at the time (for comparison, only two SNES RPGs, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest and Secret of Mana, had the budget to have their own cartridges produced with Japanese, English, German, and French text). LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:39, December 18, 2022 (EST)
 * I think Goomboss made more sense because of basically all the support arguments on that proposal, mainly the identical names in every non-English language and that the game repeatedly mistranslated references to the first Paper Mario throughout (which to my knowledge isn't a factor here). Had the Chestnut King name been correctly translated, there would never even have been debate surrounding whether to merge them. In this case though, as far as I know there's nothing to indicate anything was mistranslated here since the names appear to be different in Japanese anyway, and just as you said there are no other translations to suggest they're the same. The fact that there are no other translations just means there's less evidence here than in the Goomboss case, I don't really understand your comment about 'unfairness'. Given that the main thing the Goomboss merge had going for it, the matching names in other languages, are missing here, and the only other evidence to merge them I can see is that they are similar, I still think a merge would just be too speculative. 09:15, December 18, 2022 (EST)
 * Comparing non-English/Japanese languages just isn't applicable here since those are nonexistent and wouldn't even be realistically comparable under the right circumstances (in contrast, Nintendo starts later cramming more languages with their own fonts and formats into single N64 cartridges, and by GCN space and money was less of an issue entirely). There are actually more things than you'd think that are off in localization about Super Mario RPG, as Square members were the ones in charge of translation, not Nintendo, so you do get misunderstood references to older games and other stuff. The Chancellor does share the (also more common) shortened form of his name with the Minister if you factor that the Japanese Paper Mario dialog uses less kanji to give it more of a storybook feel. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:41, December 18, 2022 (EST)
 * If the other translations for SMRPG don't exist or wouldn't be trustworthy, that doesn't then make TTYD's other translations less notable. They still helped to prove Goomboss and Chestnut King as one and the same, and I think the fact that there is no such evidence here means we should default to keeping these split because they aren't officially confirmed to be the same, not to merging them based on similar Japanese names alone. Innocent until proven guilty, or in this case, different until proven the same. As for SMRPG's English localisation, that doesn't really matter considering Paper Mario was the second of the two games, so it would be the one to reference SMRPG, and I can't think of any other references to previous games that the first Paper Mario mistranslated (but this is a bit of a tangent considering the Japanese names are different anyway). 15:28, December 18, 2022 (EST)
 * Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, or in this case, European translations of Super Mario RPG versus Paper Mario. FYI, the English Paper Mario localization also missed several references to Super Mario RPG (which I'd chalk up to different teams' level of familiarity). As for the Japanese names being different: in the strictest possible interpretation? “Yes.” In reality? Japanese phonetics flip between writing systems all the time if you glance around a bit, so no, not in any meaningful way. I have the Super Mario RPG Shogakukan guide, and even it only refers to the character as 「」 (Daijin, Minister) on pages 37 and 38. I don't happen to have access to the Paper Mario Shogakukan guide, but the point stands: the Minister's name matches the Chancellor's common name in Japanese. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:51, December 19, 2022 (EST)