Talk:Urchin

Can someone please upload a pic of urchin from mario galaxy?

Split Mega Urchin and Mini Urchin from Urchin
I don't understand why these two things are merged because while it is true that they are in fact just bigger and small versions of Urchins they both have what I believe are official names (QUICK SOMEONE WITH A PRIMA GUIDE FOR NEW SUPER MARIO BROS. WII AND NSMB2 CONFIRM THIS) and they both show differences from regular Urchins because unlike Urchins which swim and roll both of these (I believe) don't move at all. I would also like to add that we have pages for smaller types of enemies like Micro Goomba and bigger types of enemies like Colossal Paratroopa so I fail to see why these pages should be treated differently.

Proposer: Deadline: October 5, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Split both

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per them.
 * 4) – Per proposal.
 * 5) Yes, it's Mini Urchin alright (though I don't have the NSMBW guide so I can't check that one). But I still say let's-a-split them. Per all.

Unira
According to the article, the Japanese name for these guys is Unira. I realize that, other than being sea urchins, they don't really look the same, but Unira is also the name of the sea urchins from Clu Clu Land. Is mentioning this noteworthy for the article? -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 17:30, 30 October 2012 (EDT)

Two kinds in SMW
Theres some that move on walls and some that go in straight lines. 24.187.191.151 00:16, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Split Urchin and Red Urchin
Red Urchins need an article for itself not to redirect to Urchins

^^^Who are you and why exactly is this split necessary? Red Urchins are just a palette swap after all. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 04:59, 23 August 2015 (EDT)

Super Mario Galaxy Oddities
Super Mario Galaxy Urchins may not be the same enemy. According to the Super Mario Galaxy section of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., their name is actually 「ウニゾー」 (126), or Unizō, and they have a land variant called 「陸ウニゾー」 (128), or Riku Unizō. Oddly enough, in the Super Mario Galaxy 2 section of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., their name was changed: 「ウニラ」 (159) for the underwater version and 「陸ウニラ」 (161) for the land version, instead matching the usual Unira (Urchin). The former is further supported by the game files of both, where "Unizo" and "UnizoLand" are separate objects. It seems as though they were originally intended to be separate species, at least before Super Mario Galaxy 2 material. If nothing else, this is grounds for splitting the land counterpart, so the question is whether to split one or both. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:59, 9 December 2017 (EST)
 * I've always noted they look distinctly different from other versions, having a different array of spikes and a face that isn't in the ":o" expression the other ones have, not to mention the more aggressive behavior....heh, at this point, maybe the old wiki's slapping "cosmic" on the front of every SMG enemy for differentiation was a bit more accurate than it seemed.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:00, 15 January 2018 (EST)
 * An update on this situation: I've since checked out the internal files of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and in it, Urchin is called "Unizo" (dvd:/1 Data/files/Object/unizo.arc) and Big Urchin is called "Big Unizo" (dvd:/1 Data/files/Object/unizoBig.arc). This "missing link" further indicates that the developers thought of Unizo as redesigned Urchins before Super Mario Galaxy 2. That, and the English name is unchanged, so completely splitting the Super Mario Galaxy version may be unnecessarily confusing. I still think Land Unizo should be a derived species, though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, 16 January 2018 (EST)
 * Their original Japanese name being Unira, therefore, does the Super Mario World section in Super Mario Encyclopedia calls them by their original name, or are also called Unizo? I'm just interested. -- 05:37, 1 December 2018 (EST)
 * Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. uses the name Unira everywhere (including Super Mario Galaxy 2) except for Unizo in Super Mario Galaxy. I don't think that the Super Mario Galaxy / Super Mario Galaxy 2 discrepancy is a mistake since this Shogakukan book uses the original names for each game in separate sections for the most part (with few noticeable exceptions like Keronpa Ball, which is a replacement name based on the fact that the featureless Kuromame from Super Mario 64 became the derivative "Keronpa" in Super Mario 64 DS, which is otherwise unreferenced since Snufit's Japanese name was reverted) . On top of that, the name Unizo is, so far, used internally in all subsequent appearances of Urchin, including the Big Urchin from New Super Mario Bros. Wii and the Small Urchin from New Super Mario Bros. 2 - it just doesn't make sense for those enemies to persist using a different enemy's label or for a holdover to last this long. My guess is that Unizo was created with the intention of being a new enemy, then they realized that a sea urchin enemy already existed and it was soon given the same name and instead treated as a redesign (maybe consciously as early as English localization), but even then the Japanese developers still use Unizo as a pet name of sorts anyway. Ultimately, knowing that it's far from a one-off thing means it wouldn't be a clean split. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:00, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * So you mean that they were intended to be different enemies? -- 06:24, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * Maybe, in the sense that Grinder and Ukkiki might have been intended to be different enemies at first. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * Have you any internal filenames for the NSMWii NSM2 and NSMU? -- 07:07, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * They all share the same name: "unizo" (Big Urchin is "unizoBig" and Small Urchin is "mini_unizo"). LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:15, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * I think the "Keronpa Ball was renamed as such because it was originally featureless" is not a particularly valid thing to say, as Flame Chomp itself was featureless at the time for the most part as well, only getting a face for about two frames to shoot fire. But that's just my little rant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * I'm just saying we'd have never made the connection if it weren't for the new name or appearance, and it took until Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. to amalgamate it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:15, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * If you suggest splitting the red Urchin, then i'd say it would go by "Urchin (red)" given what i said on the Mini Wanwan talk page. -- 11:39, 8 February 2019 (EST)
 * Unlike the small Chomp, neither guide directly identifies it as "Urchin" at any point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:43, 8 February 2019 (EST)
 * "Urchins are spiky blue fish that Mario must face in an underwater challenge in the Beach Bowl Galaxy and a land mission in the Freezeflame Galaxy. They roll along the seafloor or ground trying to poke Mario with their spikes. There are also red Urchins in lava areas that Mario can hit with a fireball or trick into falling into the lava." The trading card description. And since red is not capitalized, it's not intended to be a proper noun, and is considered to be the same, so Urchin (red) could work there. -- 11:46, 8 February 2019 (EST)
 * The "Riku" adjective in its Japanese name "Riku Unizo" and "Riku Unira" might suggest that it is a subspecie as it doesn't use an identifier, and "Riku", as i already mentioned, is an adjective. -- 03:33, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * Other than that, let's see what people think about the Ground Urchin. -- 11:59, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'd be fine with using "Urchin (red)" as the Japanese distinction is land-based rather than color. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:01, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * While "Unizo Land" could be in the template. -- 12:04, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * If i see no objection on it at this point, we can split it without any problem, or proposal. -- 08:26, 10 February 2019 (EST)
 * Also, i'd prefer we leave the SMG info as they still have the same color, including the spikes, and still have the lips. I know many enemies we're off model in this game. What do you think about the red Urchin? I mean, i'm for splitting one. -- 12:40, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * Just the red/land Urchin. As mentioned above, "Unizo" has a peculiar history as a name for Urchin and its derivatives, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 materials quickly changed it back to the usual name anyway. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:18, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * Like i said, if there are no objections on it. -- 13:48, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * I checked with Niiue about the source priority exception proposal, and was told that this would still count as "Land Unizo". LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:48, 17 February 2019 (EST)
 * Per what i said on the Mini Wanwan/Chibi Wanwan talk page. Let's just keep-as-is for now. -- 11:23, 17 February 2019 (EST)
 * Perhaps i could make a counterproposal on the Super Mario Encyclopedia source priority proposal, as i'd prefer it depends on guides rather than internal filenames having the priority. Let's say keep as-is until either a Super Mario Encyclopedia proposal to cite part of the book or stop making exception for the priority source for now. I don't want to say that "Land Unizo" is the english name while "Land" is a "loanword" and "Unizo" being the Urchin's Japanese name. -- 13:20, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'll be blunt - your spontaneous MarioWiki:Naming proposals ended up going nowhere (and I supported the internal template), so it probably wouldn't be a great idea to flood that talk page with more proposals. If you'd like to pick up where you left off, I highly recommend first opening a discussion next time. Also, I think your concepts of loanword and romanization are loose, and your stealththought? strikethrough usage is incorrect. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:33, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * Speaking of that split, shouldn't it be Riku Unizo or Riku Unira, given how we didn't rename Mini Wanwan into Mini Rolling Wanwan? I've got into a great detail over why the encyclopedia is extremely and fundamentally flawed. -- 06:24, 2 March 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not sure why we would want to go with the untranslated "Riku Unira" when we have a translated "Land Unizo" name (the former will even confuse casual readers with Unira). If anything, I suggest "Urchin (land)". LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * I said either go with Riku Unizo or Riku Unira. Please note that the internal filename has "Unizo", and given the source priority, this is why i suggest this. We're they properly named in-game? (quote, name mention) -- 07:51, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * No, but they were properly translated (not localized) by the game developers themselves. Anyway, this has gone on long enough, so I've put it to a proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)

Split the ground Urchin
As discussed, there is a second type of Urchin in Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2, which isn't named in the Prima Guides. One option is its internal name in both games, which is a direct translation of its first Japanese name. The other closest mention is on the trading card, which calls it a red Urchin. A third option is available for Riku Unira, which is a romanization of its more recent Japanese name. A fourth option has been included for "Urchin (land)", which is a compromise to feature an identifier based on the plain English internal name. This proposal will determine which of the four names it will get for the split.

Proposer: Deadline: March 22, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Split as "Land Unizo"

 * 1) My preferred choice, as the second option gives the impression that it's a color variant when splits on that basis are generally discouraged and the third is untranslated and may give the idea that it's related to Unira.

Split as "Riku Unira"

 * 1) Should be either this, "Riku Unizo", or "Urchin (land)", given that Land Unizo is not this enemy's english name by any definition.

Split as "Urchin (land)"

 * 1) An alternative to the above three.
 * 2) My preferred choice. You didn't really get my point. I didn't use the "it is an english name but is made by Japanese people" argument. I said that "Unizo" isn't the english name. Also, for the SMBS items, it worths nothing.
 * 3) Since we do have an English name for it, I think this is the logical choice.
 * 4) That works for me, since English names usually take priority anyways.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
Aren't there an option to split it as "Riku Unizo" or "Urchin (land)"? You may have not noticed the mention i gave to these names. -- 08:07, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * Riku Unizo is the older Japanese name and directly corresponds to Land Unizo (and "land" is, "by any definition", English), and you didn't respond to my "Urchin (land)" suggestion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:11, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * We renamed "Chibi Wanwan" into "Mini Wanwan". I pretty much agree with "Urchin (land)", and we renamed Petari to Petapeta. The crew that made the name DOES matter. Btw you can find my loanword concept loose, idc, and shouldn't we move Pattan to its direct romanization "Patan" given the Petari/Petapeta and the potential Garigari/Gorumondo case, since it's not its english name by any definition either  . -- 08:17, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * Yes, because Mini Wanwan is technically more common. The Petari and Garigari situations are minor in the long run, and are off-topic since they have been/are being dealt with. And you should care that you're applying the wrong definitions of loanword and romanization because it seriously risks spreading misinformation. As for it mattering if the name came from Japanese people or not, good luck convincing anyone that Wing and Lucky Star are actually in another language. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:40, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * It means something because you can't have it both ways; either Japanese are capable of forming English words or they aren't (which has more or less been your suggestion). LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:59, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * Please take a look at Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins. Also, please note that i told you that there is "Unizo". I don't really get your definition of an "english" name, and also, forgot to say, the TicoComet internal filename, along with "Pattan" and other SMG enemies internal filenames are romanized, and for some reason, they don't have the another language template. IMO, both examples should have been named to the direct romanization (except for the Comet word).  -- 05:41, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * Not sure what those games have to do with anything because the former had a minimal localization altogether and the latter had localization effort only put into its manual. Localization is not the same thing as translation. An English name as used by the wiki is something that is generally considered actual English or used by the official English translators, and if they choose not to localize what they translate like they did with Super Mario Land, that's on them, not us. Yes, we are aware that internal sourcing is somewhat of a grey area, but recent attempts to have a broader discussion about it and put something into policy failed, so the best we can do is determine each case individually. In this situation, we could go with Urchin and have an article identifier, but we also have a conflicting proposal on source priority exceptions, which is why Land Unizo would be the result. And I'll remind you that other examples like Needle Plant are, in no way, shape or form, a "romanization" of the Japanese name - a romanization is not the same thing as Japanese translating the language themselves. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:08, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * I said that Needle Plant is merely placeholdery, and is not intended to be the actual name. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat did have internal filenames "englishized", but most of them are too generic. Kiba Pig Poppo wasn't entirely englishized though, and i feel that it is nonsensical by itself. Mini Iga and Bakky are total romanizations just like Karikari and Kamikami. Wait, the source priority proposal? I'd have liked to make a counterproposal, since i'd prefer a guide-by-guide basis. -- 08:00, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * Except Needle Plant isn't a placeholder since it's still in use (and that's not what you indicated earlier), and I already went over how Mini Iga and Bakky aren't real . Anyway, this is going nowhere here. If you still have issues about particular cases, I'd suggest taking them to the appropriate talk page. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:21, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * I mostly disagree with splitting it as Land Unizo because of the "Unizo" part of the internal filename. Please note what said on the Gorumondo talk page with the invented "Iron Noko" example. It wouldn't be much of an english name with that "Unizo". -- 13:41, March 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, while the crew that made internal filenames did not matter for Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, it DID matter for most unnamed Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 enemies. This includes: The "Beamer" enemies, Ball Beamer/Bolt Beam, Jump Beamer and Ring Beamer/Beam. Jump/Sentry Garage/Guarder, Fire Pressure, Mandibug Stack, this Urchin and Pattan. Particularly the last one, as its not the enemy's english name in anyway, shape or form. It is a romanization of the Japanese name. (that could have been changed to the direct romanization if that becomes the consensus, but i don't think so). Yes, i know that it is Hepburn romanization, but that does not make them the enemies's english names. Anyways, a question. When you said that neither guides call it an Urchin, do you mean that it doesn't get a proper mention, or it isn't mentioned at all? -- 09:56, March 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * "TicoComet" is also one of these case. It isn't settled yet, since it's not the character's english name either. I'd rather have chosen "Comet Chikko". I already brought up the "Iron Noko" example. -- 05:01, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * If say, a water (or even a fire) variant of the Monty Mole is internally named "WaterChoropu" or "FireChoropu" depending on which variant it is, there are loanwords. But, it has the Japanese name of the Monty Mole, so no, Land Unizo/Unizo Land is NOT that Urchin's english name. -- 13:17, March 18, 2019 (EDT)