MarioWiki:Proposals

List of talk page proposals
None at the moment.

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Split articles/keep articles split if they have notable name and appearance changes. Merge articles if they have the same name and not enough changes from the original.
Currently, the wiki does not have a clear set guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled. If this proposal goes through I believe it will friendlier for new and exisiting wiki users as it allows content to be searched outside Mario Wiki and covered more cleanly.

I propose that articles covering similar should be split in the following conditions.


 * If there is a name change. This should be the most important factor in deciding an article split, as search engines such as Google rely on the name the most.
 * It is considered a different entity by the game itself in addition to the name change. Direct replacements such as Power Star to Grand Star can be covered in the original article. Moves used by different characters count.
 * If there are design differences in addition to the above, such as with Daisy Blossom and Goombo.
 * If the same name is shared, but there are significant differences to the point where a seperate article is needed to cover them all. Examples like Mario and Sonic games from Wii to DS count.

Articles possibily affected include: Daisy Blossom, Daisy Bomber, Daisy Parasol, Azure Roller, Cyber Slick, Goombo and the ports of games with the same name such as Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and Luigi's Mansion.

Proposer: Deadline: October 27, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Not only do I think pages such as Azure Roller and Daisy Blossom should be split from Roller and Peach Blossom because they have different names and look different, they also don't appear in every game and share every single detail. Azure Roller appears in different CPU controller karts and time trials, and Daisy Blossom is all flowers and daisies and the background and frames are completely different, and also doesn't appear in games before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. There is also the issue of how search engines such as Google cannot easily link Daisy Blossom to Peach Blossom and a user searching up the move will not get relevant results unless it's on a seperate page. There are a lot of people searching up wheels such as Retro Off Road and Cyber Slick. For games such as Captain Toad Treasure Tracker and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze with the same name and a lack of drastic sweeping changes, I think they should be merged and exclusive content covered in the article itself, then it would be friendlier if Switch owners are looking for the content.

Oppose

 * 1) The statement that there's no policy on splitting pages with the same name is downright false; policy and consensus have stated that if something has gameplay differences, it's splitting time. Azure Roller being merged to Roller doesn't even need a proposal, just a talk page discussion. Finally, this all seems like a knee-jerk reaction to the Daisy Bomber page being converted back to a redirect, seeing as it happened just yesterday.
 * 2) Per DarkStar and my principle towards opposing proposals that are purely reactive and/or prioritize forcing through a user's personal opinion over all else. In support of the later, it's evident that the proposal's claim (at least prior to any editing) of the wiki lacking "a guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled" is poorly researched to the point of being blatantly false - for starters, we have this proposal regarding ports, and with regards to slightly different entities and games bearing the same name, we have this section on the "Naming" page of our writing guidelines and the "New Article" guideline on titling pages for ported games, which I believe may have served as a basis for the aforementioned proposal.
 * 3) per the above, but it really seems too subjective/non-concrete to me. I think it would create more inconsistency over less due to not being able to tell alternates in-page and alternates new-page. - 11:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * 4) This proposal is extremely vague and your list doesn't even come close to how many articles this would affect, and is also confusing since it doesn't even mention which articles would be split and which ones would be merged if this passed. You're painting with far too broad of a brush here, matters like this should only be settled on a case-by-case basis. Also, like I told you before, having a different name alone is not an instant reason to split articles (on the other side of the coin, having the same name is also not an instant reason to merge articles) and would unnecessarily undo countless proposals over the years. I get that you really want Daisy Blossom to be split for whatever reason, but this is going way too far.
 * 5) As much as I'm actually extremely uneasy about merging Roller and Azure Roller, this proposal is just too vague to even consider supporting. Per all.
 * 6) To make my point clear, I do love echo fighters. However, that doesn't affect that fact that echo fighters are officially clones, and that point should be made clear as the proposer seems to think that the wiki has a bias against echos when it doesn't, as the only reason that they're treated differently is because of what they are officially considered. As a wiki we do not have any bias towards different characters, and reason why we would treat some differently is due to something official. On the other side though, this proposal seems to be made out of spite without much thought. Per all.
 * 7) Per everyone. Way too vague for my support.

Comments
We already split subjects with different names and appearances, such as with Goombo. Regardless, arguably Daisy's special moves are different than other variants, as Daisy is labelled as an echo fighter, contrary to other examples of variants which are often treated as their own separate thing. Due to that there is less ground to split Daisy's special moves when they are literally part of a official clone of a character. Regardless, the "and if there are less than four variants" thing is unnecessary, as really if a thing should be split than it should be split, merging stuff just because there is a lot of things would just be confusing and would pad out articles for no reason. 09:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

There are more differences between Daisy's moves and Peach's moves than Goombos and Goombas. I believe Daisy still have a seperate Movelist page in the game than Peach has. In New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were similar enough to be merged and not seperately selectable in game, and literally call the same model. They have seperate pages on the wiki. Echo Fighters are more like how you copy a file and it still takes up extra space on your harddrive, rather than creating a file shortcut. The original Japanese meaning even references how derivative numbers are still different numbers despite being copied from. -- memoryman3 09:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * There isn't more difference though. If anything, that just comes off as biased. As for Blue and Yellow Toad, you can actually select either of them. The reason that they are in the same slot and thus cannot play as both Blue and Yellow Toad is because Toadette took the slot the Blue Toad had. They have separate pages on the wiki simply due to their previous appearances regardless. If you copy a file it is still the same file, and the comparison has nothing to do with wether or not Daisy's move should be split.  09:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * Even if you could select Blue and Yellow Toad in different slots, the only difference between them is the color of their mushroom cap. No gameplay differences and no design differences other than that, Nintendo explictly kept them as similar as possible. They are still seperate pages. Like Peach and Daisy's moves the game appearances are a bit different. As for the copying thing, if the file is changed a bit, for all intents and purposes it is a different file. For Blue Toad and Yellow Toad I would probably keep them split for the search engine reasons.--MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png memoryman3 09:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

I have updated the proposal to more clearly reflect what I mean, and how this could be applied wiki wide. This is not reactive. -- memoryman3 10:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Been following the matter on the talk page, and this is rather poor form to say the least. -- 10:32, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Generally poor form to make a proposal when you've been unanimously opposed on the talk page beforehand. 10:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Explain how Daisy's moves don't deserve their own pages when they have been given their own pages ingame, plus content such as the identical Mario Kart wheels, Goombo, and the two Toads allowed to have their own pages with even less differences? That does not make any sense to me. We can very easily merge Goombo with Goomba as it is just the Super Mario Land variant of a Goomba with an appearance change. -- memoryman3 10:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * Explanation.


 * Azure Roller doesn't need a proposal, just a quick discussion.
 * Daisy's specials are practically identical to Peach's save for visual effects.
 * The Toads are separate characters, not the same toad in different hats.
 * That is my explanation. 10:44, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

In addition, Goombo and Goomba have different Japanese and English names, were explicitly described as relatives, and variants of existing enemies already have precedents for splitting. Try again. -- 10:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, but Daisy's moves arguably fall under the Goombo and Goomba variants. Daisy's moves, whilst behaving the same as Peach's moves, have differences including visual effects. Visuals are still a difference worth noting. If Daisy's moves looked a bit different and had the same name it would make sense to keep them merged. However the naming being different means that in order for the move to be properly represented across the web, it needs to be split into a new article. If you type Daisy Blossom into Google you don't get relevant images easily, unlike with Peach Blossom. Additionally. Daisy Blossom does not appear in any other Smash game other than Ultimate. They are also technically seperate moves, such as how Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are seperate characters. Daisy is not a Peach costume, she is unlocked seperately. It is the same thing for Azure Roller and normal Roller. Different unlock times, different appearances, different names, different wheels. A split makes sense even though the function is the same. -- memoryman3 10:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * It makes no sense to make a duplicate page just to note the difference in visuals. 10:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * The pages will not be duplicate pages however. Daisy Blossom's past edits had notable changes such as new images, new descriptions, and how it relates to Daisy's past instead of Peach's past. Daisy Parasol would show Daisy's 8 different parasol designs and how she uses it in her entrance animation and not her taunts and victory animations. The articles would also not be cluttered with references to previous games, like how Cyber Slicks and Azure Rollers don't reference Mario Kart 7. I plan to also revamp the Peach special pages along with this. --MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png memoryman3 11:04, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * Have to second DarkStar here: The matter regarding the Final Smash will probably change when sufficient proof of differences beyond the visuals and character references (which are tied to the visual appearance, if I recall correctly) is put forth on the Talk Page where things were initially being discussed the day prior to this proposal. The same should apply for the rest of the special moves in question as well, I'd imagine. Much more pertinent is the fact that how we handle enemies and how we handle fighting moves are two entirely different baskets of eggs, and using the splitting of similar-but-differentiated enemy variants as a basis for splitting move variants that have not been sufficiently differentiated doesn't strike me as a particularly sound argument. -- 11:13, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

How so, it's literally the same thing. Goomba and Goombo have no differences beyond visuals and character references. Exact same thing with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. You can easily merge Goombo with Goomba and no one would bat an eye. I have already put many arguments as to why Daisy's moves have merits to be seperated, and to be honest none of the reasons against it strike me as compelling or more substantial than "Daisy's just Peach in orange", and how in general there's an bias against Daisy in the wiki due to her fans. I've already provided external reasons such as search engines not correctly referencing Daisy Blossom and visual differences being important. When people are looking for Daisy Blossom, I'm pretty sure they DON'T want pictures of Peach's trophies -- memoryman3 11:22, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * If Daisy Blossom getting "proper web representation" is your main concern here, SmashWiki already covers it on its own page. And no, that's not a good reason to split, the "X wiki does it so we should do" argument has been shot down many, many times over the years. I don't know how many times we have to tell you that every single one of Daisy's moves is functionally identical to Peach's, the only differences are visuals which aren't enough to warrant a separate page. I'd also like to point out that, with the exception of her Final Smash, not even SmashWiki splits Daisy's moves and specifically mentions that there's no difference between them, and this is the same wiki that explains specific amounts of frame and knockback trajectories. Ultimate has been out for almost a year, if SmashWiki hasn't found any differences between Peach and Daisy's moves that actually affect gameplay, there aren't any. -- 11:36, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Gameplay is not an argument. In fact I would say that basing it only on gameplay is unfair, when there are visual differences that affect areas such as Google Images. Or how an end user is looking for a specific variant. In that case we can say that there's no difference at all between Blue Toad and Yellow Toad and that they don't deserve seperate articles. But we split them, because when someone is looking for Blue Toad or a specific variant of a wheel, they are looking for information on that Toad or wheel specifically. Merging Daisy's named moves benefits absolutely no one except the people who REALLY dislike clone characters in fighting games and think they should be erased. -- memoryman3 11:58, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * I noticed you curiously skipped over my suggestion that you first prove there are more than visual-based and character-reference differences, and WT's rebuttal seems to indicate why, but in any case, I'll add that your statement on Goomba and Goombo is a circular argument - as stated previously, they also have different names and a statement from a notable source (Nintendo Power) that indicates they're related but not exactly the same. And again, splitting/merging enemies and attacks aren't handled with the same exact policies - and to boot, there have been numerous cases of pages for heavily similar enemies being split upon the basis of a different Japanese name. Furthermore, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are very visibly two distinct characters that have both clearly appeared separately from each other, and are thus treated separately regardless of whether or not they serve the same gameplay function. As you just said in contradiction to your earlier point, gameplay is not an argument, and once we humor that notion and remove it from the equation, there are only visual-based differences to distinguish Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom - thus no split.


 * In fact, you seem to be using only gameplay roles as the basis for suggesting that the aforementioned articles should be merged, with the implication that if Daisy Blossom isn't going to be split, then neither should those. This is a poorly constructed line of logic, per what I've just stated above: they're established as different characters by official material, with enough differentiation between them that is established by more than visuals. E.G. Goomba and Goombo are split on the basis of being similar-yet-distinct creatures with different names that exist in different locations, as has been established with many other regional variants (Beanbean Kingdom says hi), and Yellow and Blue Toad are split per being two different Toads that we see literally standing next to each other through the various cutscenes of the New Super Mario Bros. games they appear in, as has been established by viewing said scenes for at least five seconds. Therefore they deserve articles, contrary to what your opinion on that is.


 * In addition, you're trying to use an amendment to wiki policy to enact some arbitrary form of "one true wayism" that conflates multiple wide and distinct established proposals, guidelines and precedents and blatantly flies in the face of them for the sake of trying to obtain a desired result on a small subset of articles and correct some perceived "innate bias" against a given character. The problem with this is, even assuming said bias existed, this would be categorical overcorrecting in the other direction: the existence of said bias being invoked as the basis for this is dubious to begin with per a simple application of Hanlon's Razor (i.e. it's infinitely more believable that the page isn't split due to policy than due to some imagined character-based bias), and overall the wiki has done pretty well in regards to ironing out character favoritism and its opposite. In addition, the correction of supposed bias in scenarios like this is very often a flimsy cover to enforce a more "preferable" one; nothing is being done with Daisy's special moves that wouldn't have been done with any other moves of the same nature, and attributing this to a desire for clone characters to be """erased""" is patently nonsensical and without merit, not least because (if I recall correctly) Daisy was among one of the more popularly desired characters for Smash, as was the case with many other newcomers and Echo Fighters.


 * Finally, even ignoring that the stated "web search engine optimization" motive is evidently an ad hoc explanation trying to cover for the other less substantiated ones rebutted above, it would likely be far from high on the list of this wiki's priorities, well below maintaining a standard of encyclopedic integrity. And last I checked, I highly doubt that standard is worth sacrificing on the altar of Google results. -- 12:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

That does not explain why the seperate wheel designs in Mario Kart are still covered seperately despite only having decal differences. I am not objecting to these but Daisy's is literally the only case of differently named moves being used on different characters, in a different list of games, being merged. I'm not arguing that every similar move and object should be merged. I'm arguing that they should stay seperate and Daisy's moves should be seperated too. The establishment of them being different is straight in game, where Daisy Bomber and Peach Bomber have their own pages. Smash in itself is not a traditional fighter either. -- memoryman3 12:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * Simple: Tires have separate articles because Mario Kart 7 and 8 established the trend of tire choice affecting vehicle performance. And if you didn't object to them, then why invoke them at all and go so far as to claim some of those instances don't deserve articles?


 * In addition, Daisy's likely seems to be the only case because she's the only Echo Fighter in Smash who's native to the Mario franchise - AKA the main reason her moves are covered on their own articles like all the other Mario characters; if other cases come up, they will receive the same treatment, and in fact I recall Dr. Mario used to receive the same treatment prior to determining that his moves were different enough from Mario's to warrant splitting coverage accordingly. Smash not being a traditional fighter has no bearing on this, and more to the point was never brought up by anyone else before you mentioned it. -- 12:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

That...still doesn't explain the wheels in Mario Kart. One user already explained merging the palette swapped wheels made them uneasy, despite them being identical in every other way. Also, I think being an Echo Fighter is not a good reason to merge the moves, when they are not exactly the same. Fighting game fans do have an inherent bias against clone characters and it ripples everywhere from message boards to tier lists. What benefit is there to keeping Daisy's moves merged, and do they outweigh the drawbacks, if there are even any? I agree though, I don't think I have made my point clear and this proposal is too vague. -- memoryman3 12:35, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know I said I'd support merging the recolor tires, but I'm starting to go back on that because of one reason, and that's the fact that they're Mario Kart 8 variants of tires that were previously introduced in Mario Kart 7, and merging them might be a bit messy. And no, this isn't the same thing as Daisy Blossom being introduced in Ultimate. Tires in Mario Kart have differing stats from game to game, and it would be awkward having a section talking about stats in Mario Kart 7 when that specific tire didn't even exist yet. Meanwhile, Peach Blossom has changed very little since its introduction in Brawl, and doesn't have any game-specific sections that would make Daisy Blossom's inclusion on the page feel awkward. Also, I don't think many users on this wiki hate clone characters. Personally, I welcome Echo Fighters because it gives a chance for more characters to get in the game. -- 12:43, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * Peach Blossom's operation has changed notably between game to game however. In Brawl, it spawned thirteen small peaches, and did not affect users airborne. In Smash 4, it affected users airborne in exchange for shorter range and sleeping time, it also got completely redrawn and summoned three large peaches. Ultimate's variant had significantly increased sleeping time and new aesthetics in the background. Peach Bomber has changed drastically between games (startup, distance, damage, effects and knockback) and had custom move variants that Daisy's version obviously lacks. Peach Parasol also got tweaked quite a bit. Of course, information such as the trophies do not relate to Daisy's variant at all. --MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png memoryman3 12:51, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * And again with the circular arguing. On top of differences between MK7 and 8, the wheels are all distinct from each other and have a tangible effect on gameplay (i.e. changing the overall stats of the kart they're used on) that is not universally shared among each wheel type. The palettes of said wheels contribute absolutely nothing towards that, and thus are safe to merge. In short: tire choice affects vehicle performance, and the only way that doesn't explain it is if you didn't read it to begin with.


 * And again, not only is MarioWiki not the place to try to correct biases against particular characters presumed or otherwise (because Righting Great Wrongs™ is not our job period, and should not take priority over encyclopedic integrity), the bias you're citing against this specific clone character is a non-factor in the moves receiving their current coverage. That's why I've referred to it with the air of "alleged bias" - not because it literally doesn't exist, but because there's absolutely no tangible proof of its influence on the matter at hand. And with regards to the matter at hand, the discussion should have remained on the article's Talk Page, rather than used as a not-at-all-solid basis for enacting a vague policy change that steps on the toes of several well-established policies and guidelines before it. I will likely be making my cases there as well later on.


 * The merge is not done for the sake of some arbitrary benefit, but because it is in accordance with established policies, guidelines and precedents on covering such things, which dictates it is not substantially differentiated enough to warrant a split. (Clarifying Edit: Peach Blossom has had various changes between games, yes - but Daisy Blossom has not, as it is directly based on the version used with Ultimate, and there has yet to be any proof of difference between those two versions, making the changes to Peach Blossom between games irrelevant.) And as we've painstakingly outlined, the drawbacks of blatantly and selectively ignoring these policies, guidelines and precedents in favor of a poorly-justified split whose reasoning has been shown to be thoroughly unsound rebutted far outweighs any of the similarly-debated-and-rebutted imagined benefits. -- 12:57, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

That falls apart when you realise that quoted from the wiki itself, The only difference between the Roller and Azure Roller is the azure palette and the gray screw-like rims, surrounded by a yellow outline., Absolutely no stat differences whatsoever. Many wheels in Mario Kart have identical stats, yet they are seperated for consistency. By that precedent, all of Daisy's named specials should be seperated for encyclopedic intergity and a lack of bias. Arguing against it is essentially identical to arguing against WaluigiTime's point of keeping the wheels seperate.-- memoryman3 13:02, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

I wasn't going to comment further, but here's an Omega Tyrant-style deconstruction.

Currently, the wiki does not have a clear set guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled. No? Many discussions have decided by consensus that similar entities with different names should be merged. If this proposal goes through I believe it will friendlier for new and exisiting wiki users as it allows content to be searched outside Mario Wiki and covered more cleanly. You forget about the existing in-wiki search tool. ''If there is a name change. This should be the most important factor in deciding an article split, as search engines such as Google rely on the name the most.'' That's already a candidate for moving by policy. Also, why do search engines matter? The wiki is listed pretty high up on most searches, so it's kinda unnecessary. ''It is considered a different entity by the game itself in addition to the name change. Direct replacements such as Power Star to Grand Star can be covered in the original article. Moves used by different characters count.'' That's also normally a split, if it has gameplay differences. If there are design differences in addition to the above, such as with Daisy Blossom and Goombo. Goombo's been confirmed to be related to Goombas. They are not the same thing. ''If the same name is shared, but there are significant differences to the point where a seperate article is needed to cover them all. Examples like Mario and Sonic games from Wii to DS count.'' That's already a split too. 3/4 of this list is completely unnecessary, and the other quarter is dubious at best. 13:33, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

I agree about most of this propsal being vague. I want to delete it and make a talk page proposal on the relevant article. -- memoryman3 13:44, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.