MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/53

Split Diddy Kong Pilot into Diddy Kong Pilot (2001) and Diddy Kong Pilot (2003)
Hi, this is Results May Vary. I am the administrator of the defunct DK Wiki. So one thing I've noticed is the mess on the Diddy Kong Pilot page--it covers two versions of Diddy Kong Pilot that are actually entirely different from each other. And it makes merging the 2001 and 2003 pages more difficult. The two are so different that the 2003 build is even more similar to Banjo-Pilot. I remember there's some history as to why Diddy Kong Pilot was entirely reskinned along the way. The 2003 version of Diddy Kong Pilot was from that year, according to the original title of the YouTube gameplay video. Unfortunately, for unknown reasons, the YouTube account is gone, and the only information we have left from that time are via forum threads such as The RWP or NeoGAF. Thanks for reading.

Proposer: Deadline: January 19, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) I started this proposal.
 * 2) This page had no proposal until now! Thanks Results May Vary! Anyways, the two are really different, per proposal.
 * 3) - Per proposal. The two builds are vastly different.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) It should be  and  if you ask me, but otherwise, per proposal.
 * 9) Per all, they're two very different builds.
 * 10) Per all. The 2001 version is more Mario-based, while the 2003 version is closer to the Donkey Kong sub-franchise.
 * ya, sure
 * 1) Per all.

Comments
Is this really a good idea? We have all sorts of genre-jumping tech demos and such in the pre-release and unused content articles, after all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:12, 15 January 2019 (EST)
 * The only difference is that both games were never released. Results May Vary (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2019 (EST)
 * You meant "similarity", right? 23:28, 15 January 2019 (EST)
 * Yeah and that both games are "prerelease and unused content". Results May Vary (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2019 (EST)
 * They are also both within the plane-flying genre, they just had a complete overhaul. It's basically a scrapped alpha/beta and another one built from the ground up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:34, 16 January 2019 (EST)

Delete certain Game & Watch game articles
Currently, we have several articles for Game & Watch games that have no relation to the Mario series. Unlike other Game & Watch games we cover, these do not have "Modern" remakes featuring Mario elements, and do not appear as microgames, or if they do the articles neglect to mention them. Most, if not all, of these articles are only justified by the flimsy connection of them being playable in the Game & Watch Gallery games alongside other Game & Watch games which do have Modern versions featuring Mario elements and have earned their place here. However, Game & Watch Gallery 4, which most of these games are included in, also has a port of the Zelda Game & Watch game which we do not cover and instead link to ZeldaWiki for. We don't have articles for the non-Mario minigames in Nintendo Land, or games like Duck Hunt which were bundled with Mario games in the past, so why should we have these? It could also be argued that some of these games influenced Mr. Game & Watch's moveset in Smash, but I don't think that's a valid reason to keep these considering our lessened Smash coverage.

If this proposal passes, the following articles will be deleted: This would also prevent the currently-redlinked Dynamite Jack and The Wily Bomber articles from being made, as they are only characters who appear in these games.
 * Bomb Sweeper
 * Climber
 * Judge
 * Life Boat
 * Safe Buster
 * Spitball Sparky
 * Tropical Fish

Proposer: Deadline: January 27, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) This has always bugged me a lot. Does not belong here at all.
 * 3) After some thinking, yeah, I don't really see why these pages are needed after all. Per Waluigi Time.
 * 4)  This section of MarioWiki:Coverage stated that we do not cover games that are included in packages such as Duck Hunt, and while these games are playable in the Game & Watch galleries they do not feature Mario characters or themes, and Mario characters cannot be played in them either, making them completely separate from anything Mario related besides from being packaged with other Game & Watch games with a Mario-themed modern version.
 * 5)  what ^ said
 * 6) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) I'm against outright deletion. Also, Dwhitney is working hard on these pages. Why not instead merge these to their respective page like we did for Destroy Them All? And by extension, Alex95's comments.
 * 2) Per Coverage. "In all cases, these crossovers are given full coverage: everything appearing in the games gets articles." And the Game and Watch Gallery series is considered a crossover. The fact that most, if not all, of these Game & Watch games are unlockable rewards makes them different than a typical pack-in title. See also Jetpac for another example of a non-Mario game which is covered because it appears in one (albeit in an arguably more important capacity).

Comments
I think we should review Coverage but common sense tells me that those articles really aren't needed. 15:47, 21 January 2019 (EST)
 * I'm against outright deletion. -- 03:56, 22 January 2019 (EST)

@FanOfYoshi: Yes, work was put into them, but that's a moot point if they're not related to the Mario series. They shouldn't be merged either, as they have no place here. Someone could make an original write up of the entire history of Link in every Zelda game on his page, but it's not relevant to the Mario series so it would be removed regardless of the effort put in to make it. Besides, everything on this wiki is work, so how is this different than deleting, trimming, or rewriting any other article? -- 10:44, 22 January 2019 (EST)
 * Also, years ago the wiki covered the Banjo and Conker games because of their debut in Diddy Kong Racing, but all those articles were later deleted because the community decided they really weren't spinoffs of the Mario series at all and had no place here as a result, which was a lot more work down the drain than this would be. -- 10:48, 22 January 2019 (EST)

Considering I was the one to tell Dwitney to make these, I should probably weigh in here. In MarioWiki:Coverage, the Game & Watch series is marked under two sections: Crossovers and Guest Appearances, both of which we cover. I suppose it could also fall under Package Deals, which we only cover the Mario aspects of. This was a bit of a confusing matter for me, and Flagman apparently appears in Wario Land II according to Doc von Schmeltwick. I think this is something we could cover, but if consensus is we shouldn't, Nintendo Wiki could use them, so they shouldn't be deleted immediately. 10:51, 22 January 2019 (EST)
 * I do think our stance on covering the Game & Watch series should be changed, since aside from the Mario-themed remakes the rest of the minigames are ports. Super Mario Bros. was packaged on the same cartridge as Duck Hunt and World Class Track Meet, but we don't cover those games. Nintendo Land is full of other original minigames (which would make them more worthy of articles than the Game & Watch ports in my opinion, although I don't think they should be covered either) that we don't cover. I think the Game & Watch games are the same situation, so I don't see why they should have special treatment. -- 10:59, 22 January 2019 (EST)

@1337star: Jetpac at least appears in what's more than basically a minigame compilation. Flagman, another Game & Watch game, also appears in Wario Land II and as a microgame in WarioWare: Touched!, and was exempt from this proposal for similar reasons. Personally, I don't think the Game & Watch games should be considered crossovers at all. What makes them more important than Nintendo Land, for example? -- 14:41, 25 January 2019 (EST)


 * The version of Flagman featured in Wario Land II is a remake in the same style as the "Modern" games in the Game and Watch Gallery titles, so it wouldn't be a valid target for deletion under this proposal anyway. In any case, you're correct in that they aren't really crossovers; they're remakes of the original Game and Watch titles with a Mario paint job, like Doki Doki Panic/Super Mario Bros. 2 or Panel de Pon/Tetris Attack. The only difference is that unlike those games, the original version of the games are also included and some of the games (the ones covered by this proposal) have no Mario counterpart. But as unlockable minigames in a Mario title, I feel these games should be covered. It's a tenuous distinction, but one I feel is important. After all, what's really the difference between these Game and Watch games and the Pyoro minigames from the WarioWare titles other than the fact that the Game and Watch games happened to already exist in real life first? Both are unlockable minigames having very little to do with the main content of the game they are featured in. (As an aside, all of our articles on non-Mario Game and Watch games should probably focus more on their status as minigames in the Game and Watch Gallery games and not the real games they were based on.) -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 15:42, 25 January 2019 (EST)
 * Honestly, we should probably be covering the Game & Watch games in the same way we cover Super Smash Bros. content. 16:01, 25 January 2019 (EST)
 * I don't think your argument works well considering you're throwing out a big difference. At least Pyoro and his minigames originated in the Wario series, which we cover fully. However, I do agree with you that if these articles stay the information about the original games should be trimmed/removed altogether. -- 16:26, 25 January 2019 (EST)
 * Yeah, I meant "more or less", not "completely" like Super Smash Bros. 16:28, 25 January 2019 (EST)
 * Jetpac is essential to be played and completed if one wants to complete DK64. It is necessary to obtain the Rareware Coin. Playing through to the end of DK64 will unquestionably force the player to play it. The G&W games without Mario remakes are not as essential to the game they are a part of. They are extra, bonus content, equivalent in my mind to Duck Hunt and World Class Track Meet. As Waluigi Time mentioned, as well, Pyoro was created in WarioWare and is a product of the WarioWare series. These G&W games had no connection to Mario when they were envisioned, created, and sold. For me, I like to hit the 'Random Button' on this wiki when I'm bored and read something Mario-related to pass the time. It's always stuck me as very, very strange that one could hit the Random button and get a page about Tropical Fish. It was even worse in the past when I would hit the button and get Goldeen, Aether and Hyrule Castle all in a row, but thankfully some of that has been trimmed. I think trimming these articles is a good step in the same direction. Furthermore, if we were to go by the logic of including games because they're included in games we cover (a la Jetpac > DK64), then wouldn't we need an article about all of the Masterpieces included in SSBB and SSB4? That would be crazy. Shadow2 (talk) 19:54, 25 January 2019 (EST)