Talk:Fireball (Donkey Kong)

What is the source of this name? In an old NES manual, these enemies are called "Fireballs." --
 * I also think this name is questionable. It comes from the English version of the DOJO: . But the Japanese version calls it "Ojamamushi" (おじゃまむし), so "trouble bug", which is not even capitalized, is a literal translation of the Japanese name and was never used anywhere else. In the manual of Donkey Kong '94 for Game Boy, it is called "Fire", the former name of this article, in a gallery of a few enemies, so at least "Fire" is official for sure. --Grandy02 11:40, 20 December 2008 (EST)

Move back to Fireball
I admit that I originally initiated to move this article from Fireball (Donkey Kong) to the current Fire. But that was before I knew that the Foxfires have a different name. The name "Fire" comes from the Game Boy Donkey Kong manual, but it is written under a picture of Foxfire. As it isn't clear whether "Fire" only refers to Foxfire or is a collective term for both fire enemies, Fire should be moved back to "Fireball (Donkey Kong)" and everything stays as it was before. --Grandy02 11:59, 22 January 2010 (EST)

I've been researching this for a while too. Here is what I came up with from examining various game manuals:
 * Head only enemy (trouble bug)
 * Atari 8-bit: Firefox (in-game sprite looks more like below)
 * Commodore 64 (Atarisoft version): Fireball


 * creature with tail (100m)
 * Atari 2600: Fireball
 * NES: Fireball
 * Gameboy: Fire

The name Foxfire is found only in a very old unofficial strategy guide. There is one more manual that needs to be examined, that is the Donkey Kong Original Edition's manual. Any European who bought a 25th Anniversary red Wii should have a yellow manual for it. Since it is the latest, it should be the most official but I can't find any scans for it. Please scan it and show us if you have it.--Platform 07:29, 29 August 2011 (EDT)


 * I've inspected the DKOE "instruction manual" but there was nothing helpful. I don't know if official guidebooks for DK '94 or Mario vs. DK exist.  I know Mario vs. DK books exist in Japanese, but that's somewhat less important.  I am going to swap the data between Fire and Firefox pages using the official materials we have.--Platform 08:06, 2 September 2011 (EDT)

All mysteries explained
Alright, I've finally realized that Fire=Firefox. These two are the same enemy. They start out small in the first three levels until the climatic confrontation in 100m. This is why all instruction manuals only depict one or the other but not both. It also explains why they only have one name in Japanese. Since Fire is the last official name given by Nintendo of America, these two pages should be merged into Fire.--Platform 02:16, 4 September 2011 (EDT)

DKWiki
calls the 100m fireballs Trouble Bugs. I am only a DKWiki reader. I only use MarioWiki. Unshy Guy (talk) 21:04, 13 November 2013 (EST)
 * Weird. Still, I'd like to know the source of the name. Oh, according to the above comments, Trouble Bug is a literal translation that is not used anywhere else. In official games regarding Donkey Kong, they call this simply "fire". 00:42, 15 November 2013 (EST)

Drum Fire, Trouble Bug, and Fire
While I know it isn't the most accurate source regarding differences, it is worth noting that they are all listed as separate enemies [] [] [] in the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Encyclopedia. And unlike those other examples, these are all within one game. 16:03, 7 August 2017 (CT)
 * Bump. The 100m enemies, which are clearly different, were merged with the other type for an extremely bizarre and speculative reason (see two sections above). Given these two, at the very least, are separate enemies, with separate Japanese names, separate appearances, and separate behaviors, all from the same game to boot, these should definitely be split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:47, 30 January 2018 (EST)
 * From what I gather, the book seems to accidentally list together the arcade enemies (note it's labeled "Trouble Bug (Fire)"), while keeping the Game Boy enemies as "Drum Fire" and "Fire" separately. "Fire" refers to the tailed one on 100m (confirmed by the Game Boy manual), whereas "Fireball" (from the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series) now refers to the common round one. I suggest splitting "Fireball (Donkey Kong)" and "Fire", although various ports give Fireball's name to Fire. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:00, 13 July 2018 (EDT)
 * As a side note on that, I find it odd they remade the art for the normal one for the Arcade section, given their sprites were the only ones that hadn't been altered in some way. Maybe they're separate concept arts from separate game-specific Shogakukan? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:14, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

"First generic enemies in a Mario game"
I don't see why this needs to be in the opening paragraph. If not removed altogether, it should at least be relegated to another section. 15:03, August 22, 2019 (EDT)

Donkey Kong
Should it be split? -- 07:59, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * No. They're literally the same thing with a slightly different sprite – several versions of the game even use the same sprite for the fires. 09:35, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * No. Generic fireballs are generic, and these have eyes, so they're creatures. -- 09:44, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * If so, then the hills with eyes are creatures as well. The small fires have eyes as well, again failing to justify a split between "big fire" and "fire". 09:52, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * The hills are background objects, not important interactive things. Strawman argument. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:06, December 25, 2019 (EST)

To recap, this is the information we know currently: I think with this information we can determine that, at one point, they were considered flavors of the same enemy, and at around the Game Boy game, they were given their own names. However, they've yet to reappear in another game together. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * There are two different designs for the fireball enemies in the arcade version and most home ports of Donkey Kong - the one in 100 m is unique in that it is slightly larger and has a tail, but some ports use only one design instead.
 * There is no known manual that distinguishes the enemies, with either one often generically referred to as a "fireball" in original material.
 * In the Family Computer version manual, both types are called 「おじゃま虫」 (ojama mushi, "trouble bug"), although only the 100 m type is pictured; later, on the Dairantou Smash Brothers X website, the 75 m version is labeled as 「おじゃまむし」 (ojama mushi, "trouble bug").
 * Wikipedia claims that the common variant is named 「ひのこ」 (Hinoko, "small flame") while the 100 m variant is trouble bug in particular, and that the enemies were renamed in Game Boy Donkey Kong, but I haven't found anything to corroborate it, so take that with a grain of salt for the time being.
 * There is one known Japanese source that distinguishes them with three entries: 「おじゃま虫 (ファイア)」 (ojama mushi (Faia), "trouble bug (Fire)"), 「ドラムカンファイア」 (Doramu Kan Faia, "Drum Can Fire"), and 「ファイア」 (Faia, "Fire"). Of the three, only the first is labeled as being from the arcade game, while the other two are from the Game Boy game. As mentioned above, this is likely Shogakukan again making an unneeded entry based on the names they were given, hence why the arcade variant includes parenthesis. Note that the entry for Faiachū specifically mentions Drum Can Fire.
 * The larger, tailed variant is named "Fire" (ファイア, Faia) in the Game Boy Donkey Kong manual, as stated.
 * The smaller, round variant is named "Fireball" (火の玉, Hinotama) in the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series.
 * Since they were split in that book (with the book's other splits being not within the same game), have different sprites, and a noticeably different behavior, I think they should be split here too. I've been wanting this split for over a year now, hence the talk page section above. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:06, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * Same. But let's just bring a consensus before doing anything. -- 15:35, December 25, 2019 (EST)
 * The only thing is that re-releases of the original Donkey Kong still call them generic "fireballs" as seen in NES Remix and Playing With Power: Nintendo NES Classics, but if we count the Game Boy Donkey Kong as the latest non-emulated appearance, then there's room to split as long as we make a note that earlier appearances group them; if not, then the article should probably be renamed "Fireball (Donkey Kong)" anyway since it's the common, recent, in-game name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:12, December 26, 2019 (EST)

Decide how to handle this enemy
Please read above, but to summarize: both designs of the enemy are generically referred to as "fireballs" in Donkey Kong home ports (some of which remove one of the designs), while Japanese material for Game Boy Donkey Kong refers to them with separate names (with the manual referring to the larger, tailed variant from 100m as "Fire" in all regions), and the Mario vs. Donkey Kong appearances use "Fireball" for the smaller, rounded design. It's clear that an effort was made to distinguish them for the Game Boy game, though both designs have yet to reappear in the same game together outside of emulation. The proposal will handle the situation in one of several ways. The first option will split the article into "Fire" and "Fireball (Donkey Kong)". The remaining actions will rename the article to "Fireball (Donkey Kong)", but the details differ: the first method will still refer to the 100m variant as Fire in all appearances (including before they receive their unique name), the second method will refer to the 100m variant as Fire in the Game Boy game only, and the third method will refer to the Game Boy appearance as Fire in general. The last option will simply leave the article as Fire and not enact any changes, which I don't recommend since Fireball is a more recent, in-game name. See also: Kuro.

Proposer: Deadline: February 4, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Split

 * 1) - Per Doc.
 * 2) Latest game to feature them together considers them different, they look different, they act different. However, in this case, the title shouldn't just be "Fire," but "Fire (100m)."
 * 3) Per Doc.
 * 4) Per Doc.

Move to Fireball (Donkey Kong) and refer to the 100m variant as Fire

 * 1)  Latest game to feature them together considers them different, they look different, they act different. However, in this case, the title shouldn't just be "Fire," but "Fire (100m)." Sorry, I didn't mean to put this here, try to be more clear with your headers, they kinda blend together.
 * 2)  Per Doc.

Move to Fireball (Donkey Kong) and refer to the 100m variant as Fire for the Game Boy game only

 * 1) It makes sense for them to share the same article given their intertwined history, and this method can save the potential confusion if more home port differences are delved into further down the line.

Comments
@Doc & Niiue: It sounds like you meant the total split option above (though, I believe the Fire/ball enemies act slightly differently in all four stages, at least in terms of how and where they spawn - I'm not sure if their hit box even changes with their appearance). LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:14, January 26, 2020 (EST)