Talk:Morty Mole

Morty Moles are Mega Moles
Morty Moles was just a rename and they are Mega Moles IGN even said they were and I think they are they just have darkish brown fur as well as no glasses and the prima gudide makes mistakes on names for example sledge bro was named "Sumo Bro." in New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. 2 manual. I know they behave diffrent instead of riding there heads and there slow but it's not comfirmed that they are Seperated enemies so I kinda think this should be a section for mega moles instead of a seperate page.
 * They have separate pages because the Japanese names are different.

Excuse Me?
Why on Earth were these merged? Sure they're both giant Monty Moles, but they look different, act different, have different names in both English and Japanese, and overall are only similar in that they're large subspecies of Monty Moles. Was this discussed? I don't think it was, I never saw anything like that. This needs reversed. 01:10, 18 July 2017
 * It doesn't look like it was. In fairness, however, the new Japanese name is currently unconfirmed, and having it all as one article does solve the problem of which article if any would cover the big Monty Mole from Super Mario Maker (which is more than I can say for, say, Parabuzzy, where the winged Buzzy Beetle as of said game seems to fluctuate articles on editors' whims as a result of the older split from Para-Beetle). Still, this may not be clear-cut enough to have been done without a proposal, so if you want to formalize it with one, I think now would be as good a time as any. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole
These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole.

Mega Mole has sunglasses, a long pointy mole-like nose (which admittedly all Moles had back then) halfway up the body, a smug lower lip, were the same palette as Monty, and had a white area that goes all the way to the base of the cheeks.

Morty Mole has the same eyes as Monty, a tooth and small lower lip, a gopher-like nose high up on its body (which current Monties and the original artwork for Monties had), a red and tan palette, and said tan area only covers part of the belly.

They also act completely different, with Mega Mole basically being a moving platform that can cause damage and Morty Mole acting like Rex. They also have different names in English and ostensibly Japanese, although I still see the SMG "Monty" split from Rocky Wrench despite being even more similar and having an unconfirmed Japanese name. There's just really not enough similar about them to assume they're the same species, especially since they're both from the same subseries, and not a weird-acting Paper Mario version. As for the "Mega Monty Moles" of Mario Party: Star Rush, they should probably just remain under the regular Monty Mole page.

Proposer: Deadline: August 1, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per my comment below.

Oppose

 * 1) While the recent re-merge should've definitely been discussed first, I believe it's more beneficial to group them in the same article. Even if the names changed in both English and Japanese, take a look at just about any of the "big" enemy articles - nomenclature has irrevocably changed over time depending on debut even across regions, yet they're considered the same subject, so naming isn't necessarily the defining indicator. Take Big Goomba, for instance - it's been under several names in past appearances and gained different behaviors (in the New Super Mario Bros. series and all styles of Super Mario Maker, they notably split into two Goombas when stomped). Having enemies that were clearly differentiated by size under one umbrella makes it far easier to keep track of these things. Additionally, one article makes it straightforward to include the Super Mario Maker version of the big Monty Mole, which looks more like a Mega Mole (albeit without shades, but the Super Mario World artwork suggests the sprites' "closed eyes" were originally meant to be interpreted as shades) but acts more like a Morty Mole (with one jump to defeat instead of two like in Super Mario 3D Land). As for the design difference, don't forget that Super Mario 3D Land also used a non-standard palette swap for the Fire Piranha Plant. Overall, I think the differences can be construed as part of a long-absent enemy's reintroduction into the series. Moreover, we do have solid evidence that this is a name change - Indy is the internal name for the Super Mario 3D Land version, which as we know is the Japanese name for the Super Mario World version.
 * 2) Per LinkTheLefty
 * 3) Enemy design changes doesn't constitute different species. Also mechanics of enemies vary between games, such as Koopa Troopas in Super Mario World and Super Mario 64. They run away in SM64, which never happened in SMW. Should we split that distinction? No. Their shells also do something different in those games. Mario can surf on shells, even on lava, in SM64 while trying to do that in SMW means the shell gets pushed and can sink in lava. A split is necessary in this case, right? No again. Per all.
 * 4) Per LinkTheLefty.
 * 5) Besides color and the 2 hits, there is no difference between this and the regular size ones in 3D Land. This is not warrant enough to cause this to be split from Mega Moles (or Big Monty Mole). Per all.
 * 6) Per LinkTheLefty.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
I want to add, if the merge sticks, the article should go to "Mega Mole" per naming policy, since "Morty Mole" only comes from Prima as of now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:50, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty: I would like to bring up this. TTYD Piranha Plants had a case similar to this, with two enemies looking alike to one another, but having different names in Japanese and operating differently. They were eventually considered different enough to warrant separate articles, and going off of this, it'd be viable to split Mega Mole and Morty Mole. 17:59, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

About long-absent enemies being reintroduced, I'd like to point out that Nintendo typically sticks with the old design when they do so, even when it would make more sense to redesign them, except for in the Galaxy games. The best example would probably be Sumo Bro, which looks nothing like any sort of Hammer Bro, and this also applies to some old enemies redesigned for Galaxy, but returned to old design afterwards, such Porcupuffer and Mechakoopa's NSMBW appearance (they both look like the original artwork). It mostly carried into the 3D series as well, notably with Chargin' Chucks. The only real exceptions I see are Bony Beetle, Bully, and Scuttlebug, but they still act in the same manner as their prior appearance, while Fish Bone uses the old design with a different behavior. And most "Big" (agh such an unoriginal appellation) enemies look exactly the same as their small varieties. Ones that look significantly different still have different names entirely, like Banzai Bill, and the larger Monty Moles in Maker are more akin to the separate "Mega Monty Mole" species. And if we're using artwork to say that the first Monty Mole was supposed to have shades, it's worth noting that the same artwork used the tiny gopher nose, and had the face mush higher on the body than Mega Moles, as well as lacking Mega Mole's distinctive mouth. 17:01, 18 July 2017 (CT)

I would also like to point out that them being the same is nothing more than speculation, which is not allowed here, especially not in that capacity. 14:41, 19 July 2017
 * As a matter of fact, the fact that the whole thing's based off of speculation should allow them to be split without a proposal. 02:47, 20 July 2017 (CT)

@Lord Bowser: I'm not sure if that case is really comparable, since that enemy (and the other referred to) appeared in the same game together, and an RPG at that. Here, it's one big Monty Mole variant from an older 2D platformer and one big Monty Mole variant from a newer 3D platformer over two decades later. The major difference being that there are separate reactions to being jumped on, which can occur between 2D and 3D platformers (for example, Piranha Plants can be jumped on in most 3D platformers, whereas they couldn't in 2D ones) or just as easily over time (the aforementioned Big Goomba).

@Doc von Schmeltwick: The Mega Monty Mole in Mario Party: Star Rush isn't a species, but apparently one Monty Mole that was enlarged by Kamek (though I'm not sure if that was originally the case in Mario Party 10). It's a reference to the transformed Yoshi's Island bosses, which were always "Big (Mega) [Enemy]" instead of various names in Japanese. That and similar bosses could be considered their own characters, but I suppose they are adequately covered by their minigame articles right now, so it's possibly deemed unnecessary. Meanwhile, due to this proposal keeping the "unique" enemy variations from having their own article, taking a third option for the Super Mario Maker version of the big Monty Mole isn't wholly feasible if the article splits; each "existing" enemy variation goes to their respective obvious equivalent, but having two articles means it won't really belong to either one (or may nebulously shift between them depending on any given editor's preference, which was a preventable concern with a certain other subject I mentioned above). Therefore, splitting the article will result in some poorer coverage, which isn't ideal. Regarding the Monty Mole and Mega Mole design differences, the sprite work in Super Mario World is a little rough around the edges since it was an early SNES launch title (see the Koopalings' in-game palettes, wherein nearly all of them completely differ from artwork before and since). There isn't concept artwork of the Mega Mole - it's probably just intended to be a magnified Monty Mole like Super Mario Maker eventually did, but that last part is only speculation. Bottom line is I don't think it very much serves us for the content of big enemies to be strict, otherwise we'd have multiple more big enemy articles based on exact size/name/behavior/appearance changes that'd be difficult to manage. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:05, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The smaller sprites in SMW were horrible, yes. But it was pretty clear that Monty Mole was intended to have some design differences from Mega Mole, like Mega Mole's hair, smug expression, and vastly different attack pattern. Every other "Big" enemy has shared its attack pattern with the "normal" variant, with the only differences being ones that regard immunities or shaking the ground. Which means Mega Mole is different from a simple "magnification" of Monty Mole. And again, the only way to conclude that Mega and Morty are the same is with some rather large leaps of logic, which is still not allowed. 03:10, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * The big enemies in Super Mario World are a bit more creative than the ones introduced in Super Mario Bros. 3, so it could just be that the idea to make them all more "uniform" like they were previously didn't yet come to mind. Another thing...what you call speculation, I call observation. What, precisely, makes equating Mega Mole to Morty Mole a bigger (no pun intended) stretch compared to the other examples I and others have mentioned so far, in your viewpoint? LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:15, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * As I've already said, the fact that they look and act both different from each other and from their "small" species. Goombas and Big Goombas always act the same as each other. Koopa Troopas and Big Koopa Troopas always act the same as each other. Boos and Big Boos always act the same as each other in platforming games, except the specific boss from World. Cheep Cheeps and Big Cheep Cheeps always act the same as each other. And they always look like blown up versions of their regular-sized versions (except Sledge Bro), and as I pointed out earlier, neither Mega nor Morty truly look like simply large Monty Moles. They both have differences in shape of various subtleties, different behavior from Monty Moles, and different names in English and Japanese. Even if one Japanese name is unconfirmed, it's still apparently enough to separate "Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)" from "Rocky Wrench." Honestly I think that Bowser has more in common with President Koopa in behavior than Mega Mole does with Morty Mole. All you are doing is speculation, because there's more evidence to them being different than there is to them being the same. 05:00, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * One question - what do you make of the internal name of the Super Mario 3D Land enemy being the same as the Super Mario World enemy (also, Monty corresponds to its unsourced name)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Well that changes things around a bit. But it's worth noting that this Wiki decided that "Spiny Cheep Cheep" and "Spiny Fish" were different despite the fact that they had the same Japanese name, and the fact that Panser and Volcano Plant have the same Japanese name, Boss Bass's Japanese name is now the same as Cheep Chomp, though it was formerly similar to "Big Cheep Cheep", along other enemies having similar cases. But I suppose that's pretty solid evidence. 14:11, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Panser and Volcano Plant are listed separately in a Japanese art book, so I think that's enough to consider them coincidental like these two, this or that (though the same source bizarrely splits others like Sidestepper, Fighter Fly and Pauline, but the writers were probably either just unfamiliar with the earlier arcade games or didn't take any name changes into account). Side note, said book does have Mega Mole artwork, but it's likely newly-illustrated from the sprite rather than the concept since it's not in the player's guide. The others you've mentioned...I personally don't fully stand by them for the most part (Spiny Fish if I remember was reproposed before complete awareness of the Japanese, etc.), but that's another discussion. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, I'm a lot less persistent about this now that I know that they have the same Japanese name....does "Indi" have an actual meaning, such as regarding moles? If so, I'd like to point out that Un-fun guy.jpg monstrosity has the same Japanese name as [[File:Old Pokey 64.png]] this monstrosity. Although saying that Pokey's been through some design changes would be an understatement I suppose. 10:07, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I can't think of an obvious meaning for "Indy" at the moment, but one thing's for sure - it's a pretty deliberate and unmistakable name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:20, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Internal name doesn't necessarily mean it's the Japanese name. At this point I'm neutral about this proposal, but when I get the answer from Mister Wu about Morty Mole's Japanese name, I may vote. --SmokedChili (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Possibly, but the file nonetheless still tells us that the Super Mario 3D World developers clearly considered it an update of the original Super Mario World enemy. If the names are different in the book, also keep in mind that Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. apparently lists all the "legacy" names for each game at the time of print and doesn't retroactively apply newer names to older games (resized ones in this case). Japanese go through name changes just like English, as we've seen many times. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:05, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Update as in "give this a new name and appearance", or update as in "make a new thing using the old thing as a precursor"? Because first, Toad Balloons in NSMBW were originally green coins and are still called that internally (here's a link to confirm it on some level). Second, the latter can be actually argued for the already much-deliberated Cheep Chomp, which the 30th anniversary memorial book indirectly separates from Boss Bass by not listing SMB3 in its bio.
 * Btw, Mega Mole and Morty Mole's Japanese names are indeed different in the ESMB book. SmokedChili (talk) 04:53, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * We don't have any evidence here that suggests the developers switched gears mid-development and consciously made an entirely new thing over what they had. Internal names are fine within reason, and it undoubtedly reflects the result in this case (a big Monty Mole is a big Monty Mole). As I've mentioned, the way that Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is organized is that it lists and relists enemies for each separate game category, using the name that was used in game and guide material at the time of the original game's release; it doesn't list an object once and only once along with the first appearance like we do with wiki articles, so it's not a good source if you’re looking for name changes like I've demonstrated with the art book. By that logic, you can also say that it indirectly states that all the big enemies in Super Mario Bros. 3 didn't return in later games ("Kyodai" [Giant] in SMB3 was changed to "Deka" [Big] by NSMB & Galaxy), which would be splitting hairs and make a mess of things. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:46, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Note that saying that the "Deka" enemies are the same as the "Kyodai" enemies would mean that the original Boss Bass and Big Bertha are the same as Big Cheep Cheep. Which they aren't. It's a different type of "larger" enemy, marked by a difference in behavior and appearance. Much like Mega and Morty. 16:48, 23 July 2017 (CT)
 * In Japanese, Boss Bass was already renamed sooner than New Super Mario Bros. - it went from "Kyodai Pukupuku" in Super Mario Bros. 3 to "Bakubaku" in Super Mario 64 (DS) and Yoshi's Island DS (meaning that, yes, it's still considered the same thing as Cheep Chomp, but Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. preserves the original names in each game section). The others (Grand Goomba, Gargantua Koopa Troopa, Colossal Koopa Paratroopa, and Giant Piranha Plant) didn't have that precedent when their Japanese names were being shifted, and are very obviously the same thing. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Which is the exact reason I said "the original". 17:32, 23 July 2017 (CT)