MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56

Either rename Chanterelle to Pop Diva, or rename Master Poet to Simon
This proposal's title sums it up. I know this is just one example, but this has been bugging me for quite a while since it's super inconsistent as to how we deal with these characters' names. For clarification, both of their Tattles refer to them by their stage names, and their real names are only occasionally brought up a few times at best.

Proposer: Deadline: September 28, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Rename Chanterelle to Pop Diva

 * 1) My preferred option, as per the analysis above.
 * 2) Per Tattle/common name, and also because Simon Belmont is more commonly known as "Simon" and there's a bit less conflict than the alternative.
 * 3) Per Link.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per Japanese script where these two are known only as "Songstress" and "Songwriter" while "Chanterelle" and "Simon" appear to be localization inventions.

Rename Master Poet to Simon

 * 1) I prefer this, personally.
 * 2) Preferred option.

Do nothing

 * 1) This definitely seems like something that should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket one size fits all proposal.
 * 2) On the other hand, I'm also okay with this option because Chanterelle calls herself "a Pop Diva" at one point, implying there are others, but it could just be an inconsistent translation (as the script is also inconsistent if they should be "the Pop Diva/Master Poet" or just "Pop Diva/Master Poet").

Comments
@Waluigi Time: This IS a single case. 17:22, September 21, 2020 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: Yeah, I guess the initial name of this proposal confused you a bit. Reworded for accuracy. 17:31, September 21, 2020 (EDT)

Upload images from the base game along with remakes
So what we're going to do is replace the images from games like SMAS and SM3DAS with ones from their base game, but still keep the images in their gallery, like this:

Put all the other images in the gallery.

Proposer: Deadline: September 30, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal and what Doc said here.
 * 2) Personally I think it makes more sense to prioritize showing the content in its original form, so agreed. Not to mention that thanks to Virtual Console and other re-releases, I'd argue that in the case of some remakes like All-Stars and 64 DS, the originals are more iconic and well-known at this point.
 * 3) This always bugged me, especially with Yoshi's Island.
 * 4) Couldn't agree more.
 * 5) While admittedly not as bad as the "this is a thing, but only in the reissue" style of writing, this is still a change that would do nothing but benefit (especially since a lot of environment tiles were outright changed in the SMAS redraws). A lot of older screenshot uploading priority suffered from a (rather naïve) "these ones look better so it's all we need!" mentality. In a way, this proposal is in-line with my replacing of NES port cover images with arcade materials for arcade game infoboxes. Anyways, per proposal.
 * 6) See the Choosing a Favorite Snack article as a good example for how this would work.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all
 * 9) - I assumed this is how it was already.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) I agree, much better to show the original version of the content, as often references are based on it (like the Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World), there’s still space in the pages to show how it was then remade.
 * 12) Same thoughts as Alex95. Per all
 * 13) Always thought it was weird how only SOME pages did this. I feel like remakes should be included just as much as their original counterparts.
 * 14) In my opinion there should be both the orginal and remade photos.
 * 15) Don't we do basically the same thing with Mario Kart tracks? Original in the template box, reappearances in a gallery? I thought this was just supposed to be the normal. Per all.
 * 16) This makes a lot of sense really, like some of the other people here I'm surprised this wasn't already the standard.

Comments
I think the proposal would be better worked out if it was drafted as a change to the image use policy. I think your points need a bit more fleshing out before we can officially apply it, since the title itself is a bit too vague for my tastes. There is a bunch of other articles that do bother me since they use images not in the original game, such as Super Mario Bros. and its use of All-Stars map images but I generally agree with the premise of the proposal nonetheless. 18:11, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * FYI, I'm not going through the hassle of puttting on every page that this proposal includes.  18:30, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * Um, you don't have to? I've seen plenty of encompassing proposals come and went fine without requiring usage of that template. 18:36, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * It doesn't seem vague to me, the point is just to prioritize using images from the original games rather than remakes whenever possible. I don't really think there's much fleshing out to do there. -- 18:38, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * @Ray Trace. Well, that might have been because the template was unused for a long time, and I decided to start using it again. 19:07, September 23, 2020 (EDT)

Question, would you prefer the non-base game's image also in the infobox along with the base game's instead of being in the gallery? 00:02, September 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * Doesn't matter to me either way as long as the original image is the most prominent. -- 11:26, September 26, 2020 (EDT)

I recommend two template boxes next to each other or something like merging the two in a box if possible. -- 18:33, September 29, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's what I basically just said three comments above, but I think the idea of just having the other image in the gallery is better, as said that the base game's image should be the most prominent.  19:04, September 29, 2020 (EDT)

What happens when there are two or more products that can be considered the base game? Is the version with higher resolution given priority for the infobox or do both releases get an infobox image? An example would Captain Toad Treasure Tracker's Switch and 3DS release, specifically the Super Mario Odyssey based levels. Salmancer (talk) 16:38, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
 * If there are noticeable graphical changes, then we could try to fit both in the box. (BTW, I'll archive this at around 4:00 WST.) 17:51, September 30, 2020 (EDT)

Super Mario Sunshine Minor Locations
Hello, everybody. So, recently I created Casino Delfino, previously a redirect to Hotel Delfino. There was a sufficient amount of information provided for its own article. I was unsure if it would suffice at first, and figured if Sand Cabana, Surf Cabana, etc. are deserving of their own articles, this would be about the equivalent. There are a lot of other minor locations with defined titles, including Ricco Tower, Hillside Cave, and Cliff Spring Cave, all of which currently redirect to the mission involving the location. However, I believe so along as there is a proficient amount of information detailing layout and its history in previous episodes (this, naturally, would not be identical to the information listed for the secret areas), these locations would be deserving of their own articles. Of course, before I continue to do this, I would like to see how you guys fall on the topic and if there are any restrictions or exceptions that would apply.

Proposer: Deadline: October 30, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal, provided there is a decent amount of information for each of these supposed articles, covering both history and layout, which I would be happy to provide.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal, seeing as we have those other articles and there's information to add on the locations themselves like accessibility.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Sure.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
Will this proposal just cover SMS, or other games with minor locations deserving of an article that hasn't been created yet? 23:42, October 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * Focusing on SMS, though maybe one or two of SM64? The only one I can currently think of is Windswept Valley, although I'm certain there are others. So, this applies to SMS and SM64. 00:35, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * Btw, this would NOT apply to generic locations such as "Pyramid" from Shifting Sand Land and "Volcano" from Lethal Lava Land as they already make up and contribute to a majority of each level and would write more or less the same. This mostly targets more minor locations with established titles confirmed either by a character or the title of an episode. Just clarifying, as I saw this brought up in a previous proposal. 10:53, October 29, 2020 (EDT)

Decide where to cover Cheese the Chao
Alright, continuing with the improvement of our Mario & Sonic content, it's time for another proposal, and this time it's about deciding where we cover Cheese the Chao. Following the guidance on Coverage, the Mario & Sonic series does receive full coverage of the Sonic-related content in relation to Mario & Sonic, which does mean that Cheese needs to be covered somewhere. At the moment, the coverage of Cheese is in a bit of a weird place- he's partly covered on Cream's page, but it's very much a half-done job there- he's mentioned in the opening paragraph, which makes it seem like the page is a split between him and Cream, but after that the page is almost entirely focussed on Cream with a few places just mentioning that Cheese appears (also, the introductory sentence for him is wrong an the rest of that article goes on to contradict that). There's also a Cheese the Chao redirect, which does just lead back to Cream's page. Cheese is also partly covered on the page for the Chao species, but it's limited to just saying Cheese appears there too. And to make things a bit more complicated, although I can't remember exactly where, I know I've seen articles which talk about Cheese like he has his own article.

Apparently the idea of renaming Cream's article to include Cheese was brought up before, but the proposal failed with what seems like some weak reasoning that basically came down to "He doesn't do much and Cream is the page's main focus, we don't need to rename the page"- despite the fact he was still covered there, and the page was treated like it was about both. Also, the example used to say that articles shouldn't be named after everything in them during that proposal is no longer valid, as the Crystal Bit has since been split from the Crystal King.

At the moment, I can't list off every appearance that Cheese has in the series, as there are so many side modes and things where he could appear and I just haven't found him yet. I think he first appears in 2012, where he accompanies Cheese at times in the Wii version, and then appears with her in the story mode for the 3DS version, where they both only appear in one episode, but Cheese does have some of his own dialogue here (albeit limited to the word "Chao"). I don't think he appears at all in 2016, but he does return to accompany Cheese in 2020 (He even gets his own artwork in this game). There are also a number of references to him in the series, but I can't pick those all out right now.

I think that there are three main ways we can go about this: I've been thinking over how to get this done for a while, but I haven't been able to come up with a single answer, so I think it's time for a proposal so we can get this straight and work out the best way to get Cheese covered properly.
 * Create a new article for Cheese- Convert the existing Cheese the Chao redirect to a full article for him, and reduce the Cheese specific content on Cream's page. Given that more often than not Cream appears without Cheese, I think it would make more sense to just give Cheese his own one so that most of the article actually has some relation to him, and I think with the differentiation of things like the references there'd be enough unique information to justify it.
 * Cover on Cream's page and rename it- Expand the coverage on Cream's page to make it more in line with the pages for the WarioWare duos (Ashley and Red, Dribble and Spitz, etc.)- add full information for him to the page, expand the infobox, fill out the gallery, etc. The page would need to be renamed to go with this, likely to Cream the Rabbit and Cheese the Chao to be in-line with all of the other Sonic character pages.
 * Cover on the Chao page- Probably not the best idea, but it's worth including as there's already some stuff there, and funnily enough Cheese is currently the infobox image there. I'd probably go about that by adding a separate paragraph for Cheese for each of the games he appears in, but there might be other ways to do it.

Proposer: Deadline: November 25, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Create a new article for Cheese

 * 1) Per proposal and the points raised above.
 * 2) Hey look mom, it's my ancient proposal! Considering that Cream and Cheese aren't nearly as joined at the hip as the WarioWare duos (even Ashley's appearances without Red are pretty sporadic), this seems like the best option.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
I think the Chao's name is just "Cheese", hence "CREAM THE RABBIT & CHEESE " here. If it has its own article, it should probably be "Cheese (Chao)". Although, can we have an option for covering on Cream's page and not renaming it? Ditto for Froggy. Reason being that Sega doesn't usually give them separate character profiles. Also, if the Mario & Sonic series gets "full coverage", doesn't that mean Flicky and the like should have their own article too? LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:00, November 18, 2020 (EST)
 * Alright, I'm not entirely familiar with the Sonic series so I didn't know about the name thing- I'm sure I've seen him referred to as Cheese the Chao somewhere, but I might be wrong about that. So if he's only consistently referred to as Cheese, then yeah, we can call the page that (It might need to be Cheese (character) though, looking at MarioWiki:Naming). I've tried to avoid the non-renaming option as otherwise I think we'd either end up with the messy situation that we have now, where the page is poorly balanced between the content for the two characters, or would end up becoming a misleading title, where the whole thing is clearly talking about the pair but is only named after one. And yes, I am thinking about getting something done for the animal friends, particularly as you can speak to a number of them within the Tokyo '64 in the story mode of 2020. I'd want some time to get together a list of all of them first and I'm still thinking about whether to give them individual pages or a big group one yet. I'll get to that eventually, there's still a lot of other stuff to do, but it is on my radar. BBQ Turtle (talk) 06:40, November 19, 2020 (EST)
 * Well, if "Cheese the Chao" is ever used as a full name, it's so rare that it should only belong in the infobox (Sonic New Network does that while citing...a sticker book?). Anyway, I'm more asking for a status quo option because that's the norm, not because I necessarily believe that's the right option. I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the Olympic games, so I think it's best for me to abstain for now. I imagine if Flickies and company were to share an article, it'd be based on their Wii U trophy title, Fauna [of Windy Hill Zone]? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:56, November 19, 2020 (EST)
 * I think it's too late for me to add it now, but if this goes to a no quorum I can add it on to the next one. That could be a potential name for it, yes, but there could be some other ones floating around- There's a badge in 2012 for the "Audience" which says "Sonic's animal pals have come from the forest to cheer!", so that's another two potential names right there. It just all needs a bit more research, so it's not something to worry about until the future, but if you come across anything else it'd be helpful to know. :) BBQ Turtle (talk) 05:08, November 23, 2020 (EST)

I need to see a case that Cheese the Chao has to receive a separate article compared to the WarioWare pairing. I don't think it helps Cheese's case that the WarioWare series is granted full coverage, which didn't prevent Red from having his own page, while crossover scope is much more limited. 15:22, November 25, 2020 (EST)

Decide where to cover Froggy
Yes, this does need to be a separate proposal from the Cheese. Froggy is handled differently, as he only appears in one episode of 2012 3DS to my knowledge aside from a couple of references, but the coverage policy does mean that he needs to get some proper coverage somewhere. Froggy isn't really covered properly anywhere at the moment, and is just limited to being mentioned in relevant places, so a place to have information on the character is s good idea. I think it comes down to two options- either give him a new page entirely, or rename Big's page and cover him there. Personally, I'd lean towards giving him his own page, as most of the content on Big's would have little to no relation to Froggy, and within his appearance, Froggy does do some stuff independently from Big. The other option is to just put him on Big's page though, but it would need to be reworked to reflect the fact that it is about both of them, like the shared WarioWare articles for characters like Kat and Ana and should probably be renamed to something like "Big the Cat and Froggy" if this was to be the case. This is another thing that I've been struggling to make a decision on for a while, so I though it was time to get it to a proposal and work out where to go from there.

Proposer: Deadline: November 25, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Create a new article for Froggy

 * 1) Per proposal and the points raised above.
 * 2) Froggy? Where are you? Per my reasoning on the Cheese proposal.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all. Froggy is definitely not like the WarioWare Duos at all.

Make a category for actresses featured in the Mario franchise and in real life
(This has been moved over from a section on Talk:Main Page due to violating TPP rule #4.)

I think a separate category for actresses would be good because there would be no pages for actresses in the Actors category, plus it would be helpful to people looking for just actresses by having that category available instead of having to search through the Actors category.

Proposer: Deadline: December 12, 2020; 23:59 GMT

Support

 * Per myself.

Oppose

 * 1) Personally, I don't think the organization is that bad right now; besides, this might open up a can of worms for categories of "such-and-such male characters and people" versus "such-and-such female characters and people", which would be too complicated.
 * 2) Per Archivist Toaddette. I don't particularly think it could be so bad right now, and it feels like it could require a huge move.
 * 3) There's only 19 pages in the Actors category, I don't see why it needs to be split.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Actors can refer to females too.
 * 6) Per all, it's only a small category and I've seen "actor" used as a gender neutral term fairly often (Usually I only see "actress" used when it's absolutely necessary to differentiate male and female). Also, from a quick look there only seems to be three pages that would make use of the actresses category, which I believe is the absolute bare minimum and suggests a split isn't necessary.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
I think it's a better idea to rename the category, "Actors and Actresses" but personally, I view the word "actor" as a gender-neutral term. 17:43, December 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Per Ray Trace on the renaming. 19:33, December 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Agreed Benjaminkirsc (talk) 12:29, December 6, 2020 (EST)

Reorganization of Mario Kart sponsor lists
Okay, this has been a long time coming. Yes, I know this is something that BBQ Turtle has been working on for quite some time now, and I still do appreciate her desire to fill a previously unfilled gap in our coverage, but this isn't about removing any coverage. It'll be about reorganizing our coverage.

See, as of right now, one-time Mario Kart sponsors are listed in "", whereas recurring sponsors are listed in List of recurring sponsors in the Mario Kart series. While there's nothing inherently wrong with this form of organization, it still has one major problem: there could end up being so many recurring sponsors that the latter list couldn't possibly fit them all without becoming bloated and tricky to navigate efficiently. Fortunately, I have a simple solution in mind: I propose that all of the sponsors listed as recurring sponsors be moved back to the respective list articles of the games they debut in, and said lists be renamed to "". That way, no list is any more exhaustive than it absolutely needs to be.

Proposer: Deadline: December 13, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) This seems like the best way to go about it. The page is already getting very long as-is, not to mention it's theoretically possible for every single sponsor in the series to eventually end up on this page.
 * 5) Per proposal- when the decision was made to organise the pages like that, the Mario Kart 8 sponsors weren't getting reused left right and centre to make most of them recurring ones, and the actual recurring ones were relatively few and far between, so switching to a system like this seems like a good plan.
 * 6) Was about to propose that the sponsor lists should be named "List of Mario Kart 8 sponsors" to be consistent with the other listicles (like List of Mario Kart 8 media) but I suppose with this change, the wording would be inconsistent with the recurring one.
 * 7) With Mario Kart Tour reusing so many sponssors from Mario Kart 8, it only makes sense to have all the sponsors grouped by game where they originated.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all. I would also like later game mentions because they are still in that game, but it isn’t necessary.

Comments
Something else I forgot to mention: Should this proposal pass, the recurring sponsors list will be retooled into a disambiguation-esque page entitled "". 13:18, December 6, 2020 (EST)

Delete “List of [TV show title] episodes featuring [Character]”
While I was browsing the page for Candy Kong, I happened upon the article “List of Donkey Kong Country episodes featuring Candy Kong”. I clicked on the article (which had been flagged for needing to be rewritten), and realized that the article is unneeded. All of its information could be put on the Candy Kong page in a condensed format. There are other pages like this for Mario and Donkey Kong, and a deleted one for Mouser. Personally, I think we should merge the content in the articles into the character’s article and deleting the pages.

Proposer: Deadline: December 27, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Delete the articles and merge their content

 * A paragraph per episode isn’t needed, just a couple of sentences saying what they do in the episode and how they contribute to the plot.
 * I can see why we have them, but I honestly don't see any reason we can't just merge the info into the main articles. I know this sounds a little hypocritical with my philosophy of shorter, more concise articles, but I think we can include the info elsewhere. There really isn't a need to have these to begin with, honestly. They just feel unnecessary.

Keep the articles

 * 1) I don't think a blanket deletion of these is a good idea. Some characters don't need them, but other characters like Mario and Bowser, who play major roles in nearly every episode of the cartoons they appear in, would have very long sections in their already massive pages. I'd prefer this to be handled on a case-by-case basis. That can be said, I'm open to re-merging in the future if it can be demonstrated that characters with lots of appearances could have sections of reasonable length.
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time, I do not feel that a complete blanket deletion is the best way to go about it. I have explained more of my reasoning in the comments below.
 * 3) Per Waluigi Time. I think case-by-case is the way to go.
 * 4) Per.

Comments
While I can see the case for minor characters such as Mouser getting merged, the reason those pages were created was to keep plot summaries off the page, with major recurring characters in mind. Perhaps there can be a case made for summarizing a role these characters get followed by a simple bullet list of episodes characters appear in however, in a similar vein to how Skewer has a bullet list for all official Super Mario Maker courses it appears in. 15:39, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * That could also work.

I feel like articles for major such as List of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 episodes featuring Mario are acceptable due to the length of their original articles, though a major issue I see with the pages currently is that the sections seem to describe the full plot of the episode, rather than just the character’s role. I feel it would make sense to keep major character pages and rewrite them to focus on the character, though one page that I’ve always been unsure of its necessity is List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa, since none of the other Koopalings have an article like it, and there is not much information on it. -- 18:12, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * I think that's because the Mario, a starring character, has his role is tied strongly to the plot. I think the way to go might be like how Wendy does it, at least for recurring characters. In Mario's case, might as well say he appears in all but one episode and then point out which episodes he doesn't have much of a role in. 18:26, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * Yeah, I think the Koopalings don't necessarily need separate pages, though I don't like the current presentation on Wendy's. -- 18:28, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * I can definitely see your points there, and I agree that would probably be a better way to go about it. I do feel that the way Wendy’s page deals with it could use some rewriting, though. -- 18:36, December 20, 2020 (EST)

Allow/create categories for images and media by website
I got a little ahead of myself when I created the YouTube Images category and I feel like there should have been some discussion first. This category in particular contains images of material that is currently hosted on YouTube, such as these screencaps and the hundreds of thumbnails we have of Mario DiC cartoon uploads. The rationale behind this category's creation was that just as we have categories of images from many publications, including a third-party one, and even from a certain website, so too there should be categories dedicated to media published on third-party platforms. Should this proposal pass, more categories like the YouTube Images one will be created, such as one for images originating from Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and other sites (posted by both Nintendo-operated and third-party accounts). If a picture is uploaded by official accounts across multiple platforms, said image will be categorized by all these platforms.

The proposal exludes media ripped from official game websites, as these are more suitable to be categorized by related game.

Proposer: Deadline: January 2, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Create categories for specific websites; include only images from official or approved accounts

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Sure, why not.
 * 4) Yeah, sure.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Eh.

Create categories for specific websites; include any image that originates from these websites (personal images, 'Shroom images, video screenshots of officially unapproved uploads etc.)
Non-thumbnail screenshots of DiC cartoons uploaded by DVD distributors like WildBrain will not receive a website category, as their content largely overlaps with unapproved uploads.

Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others
A disagreement between and me has started in Talk:The Princess Peach, a talk page concerning a ship (not the princess herself!) in Paper Mario: The Origami King. I and others advocated italicizing the name of the ship as it is consistent with MLA standards.

LinkTheLefty, however, argued these points:
 * The suggestion to italicize ship names contradicts with Naming: "Italics are used in main and gallery namespace page titles in the same way that they are used in text."
 * The in-game name for the ship is not italicized, and we shouldn't be italicizing names that Nintendo doesn't italicize to "fix" their formatting.
 * The Manual of Style makes no mention of italicizing boat names.
 * MLA may not be a relevant standard to follow as it is not explicitly stated to be followed in our wiki. Additionally, style guides such as AP Stylebook or U.S. Navy Style Guide does not italicize ship names.

I hope I have accurately summed up LinkTheLefty's points. If I have misrepresented their comments or left out any important points being made, please let me know.

I, however, disagreed, arguing the following points:
 * I do not see a contradiction. "Text" in the cited sentence refers to the content of an article, not in-game text as I assume that's being argued. The sentence in the naming guidelines refers to the wiki's requirement to italicize the titles of the subject to be consistent with the game text. For example, Mario Party 4's article needs to include to italicize the article header per policy.
 * The text in a video game medium is different from in an encyclopedia and thus is not subject to formatting standards that we have. Additionally, video game medium tend to not italicize in-game names. I cite non-italicized game names from the tips from Super Smash Bros.. There is also mention of Super Luigi series. Finally, we already italicize implicit names in the big list in List of implied entertainment which are likely not italicized in the in-game text.
 * If our Manual of Style already takes elements from MLA (which is does by advocating italicizing "games, series, movies, television programs, albums (music) and publications (print: comics, books and magazines) [...]") but does not explicitly state adhering to MLA), then we should be expanding what needs to be italicized to include ship names and other applicable titles, even if they are fictional, in accordance to MLA (Wikipedia italicizes fictional titles too, see ; I assume it's reasonable to use Wikipedia as an example).
 * If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard. I do concede that there are some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki (such as minor grammar and spelling errors in [sic quotations needing to be silently corrected] while we include [sic] even for minor grammar errors).

My proposal is to amend our Manual of Style to add italicizing titles not already mentioned in our Manual of Style, but outlined in the MLA guidelines. We should have it be policy to italicize ship names, play names, artwork, web publications, and anything else not already mentioned in our Manual of Style. If MLA is not relevant, then we should be at least following a bit of what Wikipedia does, as we're an internet wiki that is designed similarly to Wikipedia. We also must include names of fictional elements such as fictional books, fictional games, and so on. I believe this is simply just a policy update to keep up with increasing standards with this wiki over time.

Even if this proposal is rejected, there has to be some clarification of what should not be italicized, and if it is rejected, I'm going to try to get a discussion running on what we can agree should not be italicized.

Proposer: Deadline: December 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT January 2, 2021 23:59 GMT January 9, 2021 23:59 GMT

Change the guidelines

 * 1) I think it's reasonable to italicize ship names and I do think policy should be updated to reflect any other applicable titles that need to be italicized and are not explicitly mentioned in our Manual of Style.
 * 2) I think it's reasonable enough.
 * 3) I was the one who decided to italicize ship names. I think it's formal writing and it should have been done earlier, honestly.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all and MLA FTW.
 * 6) Per all. Just because were not Wikipedia doesn't mean we can't do some things like Wikipedia. And using proper and professional formatting isn't "being fancy for the sake of being fancy", it's being formal.
 * 7) - per all
 * 8) Per all.

Do not change

 * 1) Per myself in The Princess Peach talk page and summarized points. All I'd add is that it's not just the text within video games that hasn't been italicizing ship names, but also Nintendo Power and related guides as far as I'm aware. Additionally, I'm still not sure why MLA style in particular should be adopted when even certain other styles disagree and have other ideas. Personally, I think a fan wiki can easily afford to adopt and discard the conventions that work best for it in its own Manual of Style, and as-is is closer to our goal of being as official as possible. Also pointing out observations in the comments below such as the full-on rejection of enforcing MLA in proposals and discussions, shortsightedness of modeling ourselves after other wikis that don't have the same goals, science fantasy/fiction vehicles unnecessarily affected in accordance, etc. And for those repeating that the MLA is just more "formal" - the MLA was designed with the express intent of academic/scholarly purposes. Those who drafted our Manual of Style understood that there are other valid ways to suitably formalize and knew to draw the line at overcorrection.
 * 2) - Having ship names in the mix would probably be confusing considering we've only been italicizing media names and nothing else. "The Princess Peach" is not a media. I think the point of italicizing titles is to make it clear on what's media and what's not (though I see the Super Luigi series is an outlier here, given it is not a real piece of media).
 * 3) - Although this is something the Kingdom Hearts Wiki does (for the ships in the Pirates of the Carribean worlds), doing it here would be a bit too much.
 * 4) Per all who disagree. I like the idea of italicizing the names, don't get me wrong, but if a multimillion-dollar company like Nintendo doesn't bother with MLA, why should we? It feels like we're going out of our way to be less accurate. And, yeah, again, let me re-emphasize the "per all" thing, we're not Wikipedia and we shouldn't hold ourselves up to the MLA standards. We're MarioWiki, we're independent, and we're well past the days of being overly fancy for the sake of it. If the ship names were italicized in the games themselves, by golly would I want us to do so as well. But they don't, so, let's just not.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per everything LTL wrote on this topic (I will also say that the suggestion WIkipedia is in any way a standard to be followed is fundamentally offensive to me.)
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per LinkTheLefty on the issue of MLA, and I also do not agree with using the standards of other wikis such as Wikipedia to determine our own standards.
 * 9) - Per all. I can see the logic behind it and I know very little about systems like MLA, but I think keeping italics just for real-world media as it is now feels more consistent and makes a lot of sense. As for the formality argument, I really don't think most people who visit the Wiki will really notice or care if ship names etc. are italicised or not.
 * 10) - Per all.
 * 11) Per all
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
Alex95: According to guidelines, this won't lead to italicizing shop names and locations as they're not normally italicized. See Wikipedia as a bit of a guide to see how things will get italicized (note that ship names are indeed one of the few things not in the big list of long works that are italicized). There seems to be a reasoning behind the italicization of ship names (here). Whether a work is fictional or not seems irrelevant, as, again, I cite List of implied entertainment.

Keyblade Master: There has to be a reason Kingdom Hearts Wiki does this? Why can't MarioWiki do it? 18:42, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * Different Wikis don't have to have the same rules as each other. They even allow strategy writing while we don't.
 * I understand there's a precedent for italicizing ship names. I just think we should keep it to media titles, for this wiki, so people don't think The Princess Peach is a book title or something. 18:47, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm fairly certain context clues help out identifying what the title is rather than glancing at a name, as it can be argued that you could also mistake Super Luigi series as a video game series and not a fictional book series. 18:50, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * Fair enough. It's a personal preference, then. 18:51, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * (ec) Keyblade Master: This is true that our policies and styling should not mirror wikis just because other wikis do it, but I'm asking for why this needs to be different in MarioWiki than in other wikis? We do have certain formatting consistencies across wikis, including italicizing game names and bolding the first instance of an article name in the body text, and my reasoning for this is that there's a sort of implicit formatting professional standard that emphasizes readability and consistency.
 * (ec) Italics will not introduce confusion. Chances are, many readers already know names for ships are already in italics as it's widely practiced (even if not always consistent) in other wikis, and even if MarioWiki is their first exposure to an italicized ship name, they can easily take inferences from context clues what the Princess Peach refers to and learn that ship names are in italics. Furthermore, italics already encompass many different kinds of works and is always reliant on context; Donkey Kong Country: Rescue on Crocodile Isle is referring to a book but can easily be interpreted as a title for a video game without any context or prior knowledge of the media. 18:58, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm not sure how Kingdom Hearts handles things (preliminary glancing suggests that series also doesn't italicize ships but there are so many different games and versions it may not be consistent), but I don't think it was sufficiently answered why the wiki must adopt this aspect of MLA style specifically when Nintendo themselves demonstrably do not. Other styles are just as valid if not moreso for the general purposes of a wiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:22, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * Nintendo is inconsistent with italicizing game titles: they don't do it for in-game text either, especially in Smash Bros. bios for characters where game titles are left unitalicized. I don't think they're the ideal model to look to when it comes to formatting things in an encyclopedic fashion because they serve a different medium: it's unnecessary for them to italicize things for in-game purposes. 14:53, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * But I still fail to understand what makes going further with MLA style ideal for this encyclopedia. There's a difference between italicizing subjects that exist in the real world and italicizing subjects that have never been officially italicized as they simply don't exist. In the end, it's a stylistic choice that not everyone universally uses - so again, why even enforce MLA in particular? Consider also that the topic of MLA has come up several times in the past, and each time it was decided not to strictly use it. Also, I understand that not all in-game text supports italics - which is why I am additionally referencing manuals, Nintendo Power, and related guides and supporting material, where it would have made the most sense to italicize these things (for example, here is the "SS Tea Cup" on the Wario Land II website). Different styles are meant for different purposes - for example, the U.S. Navy Style Guide specifies not to use "the" before a ship's name, running counter to "the Sweet Stuff" and "the Princess Peach" among all other mentions - so is it really our role to fix what, by most accounts, isn't broken? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:12, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * I realize that we're not explicitly using MLA but I think italics for works and the odd ship name is the way to go and in terms of general formatting, I think it's best to follow closer to that. I don't think it's that much of a major change but I'd like to see text for ship names appear similar to the ship names in Wikipedia, as well as fictional works. Citations should be formatted by the way and there's agreement that we need the formatting here and I'll still pressure featured articles to have proper sourcing. I think style guides can be inconsistent and some game guides don't italicize ship names, but I'm not really seeing the connection we have to make between game guides and wiki compared to looking at examples from big wikis. I will ask, however, about the reasoning for format to begin with: why do we bold the first instance of the subject in an article? Why italicize game names at all? Why even encourage italics for practically all major works (quotations for smaller works) and stop at ship names (as well as names for things not mentioned in our Manual of Style including web publications and artwork; what if a famous pop artist creates a titled work about Mario? should we not italicize even if it's not explicitly spelled out in the Manual of Style?) even if ship names are usually included? Why put dates in citations in parentheses? Why forbid the use of 2nd person? Why discourage contractions? In the end, this might just boil down to fundamental disagreement on how to format prose, but I feel the reasons for stopping at ship titles are reliant on nonencyclopedic styling from other sources, that we aren't adopting MLA (which is technically true it appears but I do not see the harm in using its suggestions especially when other encyclopedias do this) and the argument that we aren't Wikipedia (this needs to be backed up to why we should deviate here; only example given was the formatting on a video game article name regarding NiGHTS into Dreams which I do not think is a strong case against italicizing ship names and fictional works), which I do not agree. 21:00, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * The change from NiGHTS into Dream... to Nights into Dreams is one I can only charitably describe as braindead idiocy, but if you want more examples of Mario Wiki articles that would be butchered under Wikipedia standards, a lot of titles should probably be considered generic within their context - meaning that we would uncapitalize the names of ape, bear, bees, chicken, cobra, cook, drill bit, ghost, hog, hot dog stand, unagi, poison mushroom, poltergeist, raccoon, sea turtle, shadow, small spider, snake, twister, urchin, among dozens of others. Then what? Do those names become unusable, or are we merely "fixing" Nintendo's "mistake"? Is that not going to put off readers expecting something more out of this wiki and have for years seen this corner of the Internet as being next to official to their interests? Frankly, becoming more like other wikis means going down a rabbit hole that I'll refuse to part of, so let's try to keep the discussion about "MLA style and its merits" instead of "MLA style because of Wikipedia". Now, our Manual of Style certainly does use a few elements of MLA*, but previous attempts to adopt MLA wholesale have been shot down (the main argument against this, by the way, isn't that we shouldn't properly source citations, but rather that such templates are too restrictive to one arbitrarily "right" style, promote unnecessary elitism, would be too cumbersome to enact, etc.). As for a reason for not italicizing ship names that doesn't boil down to "this is my personal preference"? Well, aside from the idea that it is not our place to "fix" Nintendo's fiction (interpretations are one thing, but corrections are another), keep in mind that said fiction is a fantastical video game franchise with outlandish things such as fanciful airships, barrel aircrafts, vehicle transformations, and advanced spaceships - are we really going to italicize all of these too despite how silly we will look? And if not, "why stop there" if it's MLA? If so, what about cases like the multipurpose Dribble Taxi, where there's no clear idea on if it should be unitalicized like most other automobiles or italicized like most other vessels? I just think this is much more trouble than it's worth. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:25, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * You are misinterpreting the goal of that citation proposal. The template would have been used in the same vein as in that it would have been an option for editors who opt for some formatting consistency. Also, promoting "elitism"? I see that as adhering to more academic conventions.  07:37, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * There are many other reasons it lost as sorting through all those comments is outside the scope of this discussion and, frankly, irrelevant (anyone is urged to read through and decide for themselves if those reasons are justified in their free time, hence "etc.", but I'm not the only one who disagrees with the notion that it must mean we do not encourage proper citations) - it serves as an example of MLA being brought up and rejected by other users in the past. I will address the "academic / looking to Wikipedia" angle as I feel it is relevant here: the simple fact is that we are not an academic resource, and . Furthermore, Wikipedia has a motto called . How about ? That would mean many things like Dayvv Brooks and NOA emails are out the window. ? Our stance is basically backwards from theirs. Among a myriad of reasons, modeling ourselves after Wikipedia (or most other wikis for that matter) does not suit the goals and needs of the Super Mario Wiki, which is to accurately represent all things Mario. It does no one any favors to get wrapped up in the trivialities of the formatting originating from more general wikis. Let's not use this as an excuse to sidestep active issues though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:23, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * I will not disagree that this wiki has certain fundamentals that differentiate us from Wikipedia, such as our focus on original research--which I attempted to address in some capacity several years ago. However, us having a much lighter verification system (nonetheless dictated by the scope of our wiki) does not mean we should ignore certain conventions that are telling of a, dare I say, professional and believable medium. While wikis are generally unacceptable in academic sources, let's not forget that they in and of themselves are collections of research made by a community of users, which asks for certain conventions to be put in place. The bottom line is that this wiki is made of constants and variables; we are compatible with Wikipedia in some areas and in others we are not, and if something they do wouldn't harm our wiki or contradict its manual of style, I personally see no reason not to borrow from them. 09:10, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * The thing about the video clip proposal is that I believe it falls under in-game/media references, which are generally removed or considered unneeded (I do personally think we can change it a bit, but that's neither here nor there). That brings us full circle, however: why the need to borrow this aspect from MLA? I've been asking this since almost the start but I still don't have a satisfactory answer ("I'm not 100% sure" didn't exactly inspire confidence). If there are "some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki" then why the push to be more like Wikipedia? It shouldn't mainly be because it's popular on other wikis, since it's been demonstrated how being much more like Wikipedia would only cause upheavals. Why does that style make this wiki more "professional" over other styles? I think a far more valuable trait on a wiki like this is internal consistency; a regular reader should not flip through game worlds and have to wonder why one level is suddenly the odd one out or find inconsistent italicization between a similar-themed nickname and real name. What about quotations? Those are already in italics, so we are losing detail when we are adding italics to things that don't already have them outside of quotes (this is already a minor annoyance of mine with about templates, but I digress). I realize this is anecdotal, but I've seen the Super Mario Wiki referred to as the "gold standard" in casual conversation within the past year or so. Let's keep it that way. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:15, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * From what I understand, the subject we refer to as "The Princess Peach" on the wiki is the overarching area around the actual ship, not the ship itself. If so, this would make it a similar case to levels and WarioWare microgames named directly after certain games, such as Super Mario Kart (microgame), which we do not italicize on grounds of it not being the game Super Mario Kart. So too we wouldn't italicize The Princess Peach (and any other gameplay area names based on ships, such as Gangplank Galleon (world)) as it is not the ship itself. This eliminates the possibility you mentioned of leaving readers confused as to why one level stands out among the rest; any mentions of the actual ship will, however, be italicized if the proposal passes, and that applies to S.S. Caviar, Daisy Cruiser and Gangplank Galleon as well, along with all the other ships in the Mario universe. Also, can you provide examples in print or digital media where Nintendo italicized game titles? The Wario Land manual you offered above does not format the game's title in any distinctive way, so the point that the S.S. Teacup should remain unitalicized according to that falls asunder. 13:45, December 16, 2020 (EST)

@Glowsquid: How is following some of Wikipedia's guidelines "fundamentally offensive" to you? This proposal doesn't automatically call for a sudden following of Wikipedia standards to the letter. 14:09, December 16, 2020 (EST)
 * The last bullet point in the main proposal textstates "If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard." The main thrust of the proposal may not be "We should do it because Wikipedia does it" but the quoted is an implication that Wikipedia's adoption of the standard, in some way, legitimizes it or makes it preferable. I am stating my disagreement with that idea. --Glowsquid (talk) 16:48, December 16, 2020 (EST)

Rethink our approach for Smash Bros coverage
Our offical coverage policy states that we provide full coverage for the Super Smash Bros. series. However, I do not believe this can be viable anymore. The SmashWiki has served as the primary soruce for Smash Bros. content, and Google Search shows most of MarioWiki's pages related to Smash Bros. relatively low. The traffic favors more in SmashWiki than on MarioWiki in terms of Smash Bros. content.

Another big problem is we have huge articles such as ‎List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U that cover a lot about Smash Bros. than Mario itself. I am aware that Mario's huge presence in Smash Bros. warrants this series to be on this wiki, but there needs to be huge changes to how we cover this series. There are several methods that I propose:


 * Narrow Smash content down to only fighters. Each fighter will have to be shorten so as to not overlap largely with SmashWiki. Any content unrelated to fighters will either have to be merged into the main Smash Bros. pages or serve as redirects for SmashWiki.
 * Narrow Smash content to only Mario-related topics. This means that fighters like Isabelle and Sephiroth will no longer have dedicated pages and instead serve as redirects to SmashWiki. Any other Smash Bros. content not related to Mario will have to merged with the main Smash Bros. pages and serve as redirects or be removed entirely.
 * Remove any side-content related to Super Smash Bros. These removal will be on a case-by-case basis, so pages such as the list of trophies/stickers/spirits and Palutena's Guidance could be up for elimination if decided.
 * Leave all Smash content alone and focus to shorten the pages. This is so the information on this wiki does not overlap with SmashWiki.
 * Do nothing about our coverage.

These are various methods to take under consideration. Our coverage for Smash Bros. will have to be addressed.

Proposer: Deadline: February 22, 2021 23:59 GMT

Remove side-content related to Smash Bros

 * 1) I don't think we should eliminate all of Smash Bros. on this wiki, but we should keep it short and only include important Smash Bros. content such as fighters, stages, and bosses. As for what to do to how we handle fighter and stage pages is up for another discussion, but side-content such as ‎List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U should be removed.

Split the tour appearances of every Mario Kart Tour course
Mario Kart Tour course pages currently house information related to the individual tour appearances of their respective courses such as their order of appearance in cups and their case-by-case highlighted drivers, karts and gliders. With the large number of tours that have been released and will continue to release, these pages end up having an excessive amount of highly-reccurent or similar information that may increase load times and make them uncomfortable to scroll through. To solve this issue, I propose that we split said tour appearances into separate pages related to every course. These new pages can be named something like "List of SNES Mario Circuit 1 tour appearances in Mario Kart Tour", with the console of origin mentioned beside the title as in-game, though if there are objections against this particular preference I'm adding a separate option to have the console mentioned in brackets and only for courses that share a name such as Rainbow Road (SNES) and Rainbow Road (3DS).

Proposer: Deadline: March 5, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support (format course titles with console prefixes like in the game)

 * 1) I prefer this option as it seems more consistent.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) I agree with the split of the lists and I think that using the full names showed by the game is preferable.
 * 7) Per proposal.
 * 8) Per proposal.

Support (include console names in brackets and only for courses that share a name)

 * 1) - If it needs to happen, I'd rather the title be consistent with our naming scheme.

Comments
While I do support doing this to courses with many tour appearances, I do think that there should be a certain amount of tours that a course would have to be in to split. This is because splitting the page when the course has only appeared in one or two courses is silly: doing it only after it appeared in four or more tours would make more sense. 19:27, February 25, 2021 (EST)
 * I think two appearances can constitute the minimum for a page. Silly as it may seem, a list with only two entries is still a list, and these pages are expected to grow steadily over time. 19:37, February 25, 2021 (EST)

I feel like we'd run into the same problem, but on a different page. Using the Mario Circuit 1 example, there are fourteen charts with many images on them. I realize the point of this is to move the load times (which don't seem that bad) off the main Mario Circuit 1 page, but I don't feel like there's enough content to really justify doing so. Not like how Gallery:Mario was split, which is just... really large no matter what you do with it.

Regardless, if it does get to that point, we already have a policy page that agrees with you. 00:30, February 26, 2021 (EST)
 * The article size guideline specifies that pages with more than 100kb of code should “almost certainly be divided”, and going by Special:LongPages, there are already quite a few course pages that exceed that size, including but not limited to Yoshi Circuit, Waluigi Pinball (DS) and Shy Guy Bazaar. It’s evident these articles are largely occupied by charts, so naturally these should be split off before anything else; the resulting pages exceeding 100kb themselves at some point is not relevant since the article size guideline doesn’t apply to lists. This proposal aims for a consistent treatment between all course pages, so if the three aforementioned pages are to be split, the other MKT-relevant course pages should follow suit. 01:00, February 26, 2021 (EST)

I'd get rid of the "show" collapsibility, too. We don't do that for tables and it just forces users to click on an extra link, especially unnecessary on a page dedicated to tour appearances. Unless this was already in mind. 06:36, February 26, 2021 (EST)
 * I find the collapsibility option to be useful at the moment as it increases the readability of an article, but I do agree it should be removed if the charts are split to different pages since they would then form about 2/3 of the content in each page and would thus require an expanded focus. 09:48, February 26, 2021 (EST)