Template talk:SSBU

Determine which characters count as bosses in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
There's been some issues going on with trying to classify which characters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate count as bosses and which ones don't. Well, there's a lot of disagreement going on for the past...year or so, so this proposal must will hopefully set the record straight. Here are the points I've made regarding this topic on other user's talk pages:
 * 1) Giga Bowser, Galleom, Dharkon, Galeem, Marx, Dracula, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Rathalos and Ganon (all of which appear in both Classic Mode and World of Light) have health bars at the top of the screen, which aren't the same as damage percentages or the Stamina mode health bars.
 * 2) These bosses don't have the announcer say "Ready? Go!" at the start of the battle. The announcer only starts the battle during regular Smash battles in other occurrences throughout the game.
 * 3) These bosses can't suffer any knockback whatsoever. Compare that to the other playable fighters, who can suffer knockback.
 * 4) The "so-called" bosses at the end of Classic Mode (those being a Giant Donkey Kong, a Giant Palutena and a Metal Mario, to name a few) have none of these things. These battles play literally just like any other Smash battle in the game. Not only that, most of them just use a permanent Super Mushroom or Metal Box, just like other opponents found in other character's Classic Modes (like Kirby fighting a Giant Yoshi and a Giant Wario or the Dragon Quest Hero fighting a Giant Charizard after defeating Robin for his final round) and others are literally just some playable characters back-to-back (like with the final round for both Hero and Mega Man).
 * 5) Not to mention, those "so-called" bosses aren't treated differently by the game at all. They are treated the same as a regular playable character before the battle begins. For example, in Kirby's Classic Mode, he has to fight a Giant Yoshi in Round 2 and a Giant Wario in Round 4. Before the battles, there's nothing that indicates the opponents are going to be giant-sized until after it starts. Same with the "so-called" bosses (although in Bowser's case, the Metal-Boxed Mario spawns after the regular Mario is defeated).
 * 6) The actual bosses in Classic Mode, depending on which character is selected, are not always fought for the final round. Some characters fight the boss before the final round (Mega Man, Bowser and the Hero come to mind); the actual final round for some characters is against a regular character or two regular characters, one after another (Bowser, Mega Man, Jigglypuff and Bayonetta come to mind in this specific instance).

Doc von Schmeltwick and Alex95 provided some of their own reasonings about why this isn't the case, but both of them are flawed. Doc's reasoning is that "they're bosses." No, they're not. If the game does not treat them as such and treats them like a playable character in a Mega or Metal Smash in Custom Smash or heck, even an ordinary Smash battle, then they don't count as bosses under any circumstance. If every giant or metal rival in Classic Mode was classified as a boss just because some user said so, then every single one fought in that mode would be on the template when in actuality, the bosses with health bars at the top of the screen should be the only ones on there in the first place.

Secondly, Alex95's reasoning is that the definition of a "boss in video games" is someone that is the final roadblock that stands in your way of a goal. But the thing is...literally anyone in Smash Bros. (spirits or not) could fit under that definition, Giant or Metal or not. Sure, they may have several different roles, but the permanent Giant or Metal opponents at the end of some Classic Mode routes are not bosses. Heck, on the splash screen before these battles, the game calls them the "Final Round," not the "Final Boss." For good reason, because not everyone fights a boss during the final round. That definition is also flawed in regards to other games in general, as enemies also serve the same purpose to standing in your way to a goal.

Who knows what these users here think after reading all of these points, so I'm letting you vote between three different options:

1) Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters or just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template.

Conditions:
 * The Giant or Metal playable characters and regular-old-playable characters with no changes whatsoever from the template will be removed.
 * The bosses present in that section are ones who appear in both World of Light and Classic Mode (and Galeem and Dharkon).

2) Add a new section in the template to categorize the Giant or Metal fighters and regular playable characters under a new header (something I came up of during the initial talk-page arguments).

Conditions:
 * A new section in the template will be added, which contains the Giant or Metal playable characters and others.
 * The bosses from both World of Light and Classic Mode (and Galeem and Dharkon) will be in the same section as previously if this option passes.
 * New section name suggestions can go in the comments.

3) Do absolutely nothing.

Conditions:
 * The dreaded selection and should not be chosen under any circumstances.
 * Those who select it will get vaporized by Galeem be counterpointed and persuaded in the comments below.

So, what do you think? Should the Giant and Metal playable characters fought at the end of someone's Classic Mode in a regular Smash battle count as bosses or not? Personally, I think not.

Proposer: Deadline: September 21, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters and just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Couldn't agree with the proposal more.  There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the giant/metal fighters in the final round from generic fighters other than their giant/metal status; and heck, there are other giant/metal fighters fought elsewhere in Classic Mode.  They play out like normal Smash battles too, whereas the actual bosses are unique in that they have a health bar along the top of the screen and have no knockback.  So absolutely, per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal, especially points 3 and 5 4 and 6. If Giant Palutena is a boss, but not Giant Yoshi, solely because the former is the last round, then why aren't Dr. Mario and Mewtwo (Mega Man's last battle) listed? There's no consistency.
 * 4) We can't claim with complete certainty that this definition of a boss (a powerful last enemy fought at the end of a challenge or something) would apply to universally any game with bosses powerful enemies at the end of a level, challenge or mode. The official site only talks about "enemies", which applies to both fighters and (what we call) boss characters. At best we can say there are "final round enemies" which may either be a (beefed-up) fighter and/or a boss character. Per proposal.

Add a new section in the template and categorize these fighters under a new header relating to Classic Mode

 * 1) I'm kinda conflicted right now, so I'm going with this. I do agree that if we regard every single giant and metal character as a boss, then the bosses template will be flooded en masse with (literally) dozens of beefed-up versions of the game's playable characters. However, I also agree with the fact that any enemy that serves as the final obstruction in themed Classic Mode routes also constitute as bosses of sorts. As for naming this new section, we should call it Classic Mode-only Enhanced Fighters to clarify that it's specifically meant for all the superpowered fighters like Giant Kirby, Metal Mario, Giant Palutena, etc.

Do absolutely nothing

 * 1) I cannot hammer this home enough. Bosses is bosses. They don't need every possible attribute to be a boss, just the most important one, ie being an especially-strong opponent fought near some sort of climax. Following your logic, Jigglypuff has no bosses (which isn't true). "World of Light" has no bearing on the Classic Mode.
 * 2) - You twisted some of my words. While I did say "a "boss", in its simplest definition, is someone that stands in your way of a goal", which can mean literally any enemy ever, I clarified that it was supposed to mean "someone who stands directly at or before the goal and tries to keep you from obtaining it." You even responded to this clarification, yet didn't add it to this. Anyway, I brought up my points here, here, and here and am holding to them.
 * 3) - Per Doc and Alex.
 * 4) - Bosses don't have to have a particular attribute to be a boss. Strong, strong, strongstrongstrong oppose. They're characters fought at the end of a themed route, they count as bosses. This was resolved six months ago. Stop dragging it on.
 * 5) I don't see any reason to change anything. Per all.
 * 6) Though all six of the above points might be true, they are still de facto bosses. Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Sorry, but I don't understand your logic. Per all.

Comments
@Doc von Schmeltwick: In this example, Jigglypuff has "no" bosses (which is true). The actual bosses in World of Light also appear in Classic Mode, not counting Galeem and Dharkon. In which case, why would ordinary playable characters with permanent Giant or Metal status be boss material if you can literally achieve that same ffect in Custom Smash? @Alex95: In that case, an ordinary playable character or a playable character with status buffs normally found in Custom Smash does not count as a boss, even if they're the last obstacle before winning the Classic Mode in this case. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 16:38, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * The World of Light has no bearing on Classic Mode. Saying that Jigglypuff has "no" bosses is straight-up lying (which is reprehensible). It's an absurdly blatant call-back to a SSB boss. And it has an even more boss-like role here. Issa boss, no ifs, ands, or buts. You keep repeating that blatantly wrong notion that a character with a perm status effect can't be a boss, which is ludicrous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:45, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * What? Yes, they do. They are the last obstacle, hence boss. 17:37, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

@Alex95 and Lord Grammaticus: But those characters in question, as YoshiFlutterJump pointed out, do not fight any different than a regular Smash battle. In fact, it literally is nothing more than a Smash battle in Classic Mode and does not differentiate from the other Giant or Metal fighters fought "before" the final battle. @Doc von Schmeltwick and Lord Grammaticus: Again, Jigglypuff has "no" bosses is not straight-up lying. It's true, as both me and YoshiFlutterJump have pointed out above. Again again, why would ordinary playable characters with permanent Giant or Metal status at the end of Classic Mode be any different from another similar battle before that point in the same mode or even in a Custom Smash battle in the first place? Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 17:49, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

Giant DK's served as a boss of sorts in SSB before like Metal Mario has, and is clearly intended to serve the same role here, unlike most other Giant/Metal fighters. Ultimate's classic mode routes are all clearly themed, and using a boss character from the original Smash Bros. as the final fight clearly fits into that theme and, in my opinion, shows that it's intended to be the route's boss. For me, it's simple as that - nothing says a boss battle in a game has to be that dramatically different from any regular fights, though some of them naturally will be. -- 17:58, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * I already rebutted those points. 18:09, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As have I. He's on a broken record regarding it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As have I. I really feel that unnecessary repetition is not a good way to convince people that you are right and they are wrong, especially when done for half a year. 21:45, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * All that's doing is making it seem more and more like the motive for starting this proposal was to be "right" about something more than anything, and that irritates me to no end, especially if it turns out to be true. -- 21:49, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Precisely my thoughts on the matter. You said it better than even I could. 21:50, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, pretty much. 22:57, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Being frank, I was getting that impression even as I glanced at the convo that preceded this prior to the proposal being made. I didn't wanna say anything initially, but I'm currently in no mood to pull punches. -- 21:52, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

@7feetunder: They were listed, but then someone removed them. tbh, they fit the bill as well. 18:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

Pretty sure that saying what basically amounts to "do not pick option three because option three is bad" is not kosher under any circumstances. 22:02, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually, it is. Isn't one of the major components of proposing something to try to convince others to agree with your statements? In that case, saying don't pick this option is perfectly fine - it's even been done in other proposals...not just this one. Oh and one more thing..."Anyone fought at the end of a Classic Mode route automatically makes it a boss." That's not true at all. I would suggest re-reading my points again because I specifically say what makes a boss a boss. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 22:08, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Except those are lies because that is the only thing that makes a boss a boss. I suggest you take time to look at an actual definition, like the ones that we have repeatedly told you. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:25, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * You calling me a liar? If anything, "your" points are lies. Not only that, the previous Smash games made it perfectly clear which bosses are bosses, this one included. Why will you refuse to admit that the bosses are not the regular playable characters at the end of specific Classic Mode routes?! In fact, what does the official strategy guide say about these "bosses"? Are they considered bosses like the ones in World of Light or are they not? – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 22:35, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * You continue to ask the same questions and get the same answers. You are being incredibly stubborn about this. Your points have all been countered, but you don't want to listen and continue to bring them up. ""your" points are lies" is very discourteous and doesn't actually solve anything. 22:57, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Chill out, Owencrazyboy9. Trying to influence votes is not courteous at all. Same goes for calling someone's valid reasons lies. 23:33, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * "Isn't one of the major components of proposing something to try to convince others to agree with your statements? In that case, saying don't pick this option is perfectly fine - it's even been done in other proposals...not just this one."


 * See, what you're forgetting in making that statement is that you're expected to convince other people to agree by presenting a strong and well-reasoned persuasive argument that supports the position AND properly addresses counterarguments and other views. , while not instantly invalidating, is very much not a strong persuasive argument - in practice, it not only betrays an inability for the argument to achieve the latter, but registers as just plain poor form across the board. Among other things, it implies that people will simply fall into agreement with nothing but enough repetition, which can be considered insulting to the audience's intelligence. (The phrase "alright, we get it, now what?" comes to mind for me.)

So I feel that if you could at least try to meet some of us halfway and understand where we're coming from, there would be infinitely less vitriol. -- 02:30, September 8, 2019 (EDT)

How about we, instead of arguing incessantly about what a "boss" is (and for that matter, arguing about arguing), look at the actual definition provided by our list of bosses article?

"This is a list of bosses, powerful video game enemies found in levels. They are usually fought at the end of a level, world, or chapter. Most of the time, the player cannot advance to the next level until the boss is defeated. However, there are certain exceptions to this rule. Bosses are usually much more difficult and take more time to defeat than the other enemies in that level or world."

Notice the focus on power over where or when they're fought, and the usage of the word "usually" regarding the latter. The assertion that bosses are solely defined by coming at the end of an area (or in this particular case, mode) is complete rubbish. They generally do, because that's where it typically makes the most sense to put a boss battle, but it's not a requirement, let alone "the only thing that makes a boss a boss." Plenty of bosses do not fit that criterion at all, such as Rayquaza, Hoohooros, Gloomtail, Cackletta's first battle, and Roy Koopa in Paper Mario: Color Splash. In other words, the entire premise of the opposition's argument is reliant on an easily disprovable fallacy.

Giant Donkey Kong and Metal Mario in SSB do not come at the end of anything either, and we consider them bosses too. So maybe the real issue here is not the inclusion of giant/metal characters that are fought on the last round, but the exclusion of ones that aren't. Adding the non-final giant/metal characters would honestly be more consistent with our navigation templates for SSB and SSBM, which similarly list things like Giant Kirby and Metal Luigi. That should be added as an option. (For the record, the SSBB template does not follow this format, only listing bosses with health bars and not things like Giant False Diddy Kong. That will likely need fixing depending on the result of this proposal.) So, for me, it's either include giant/metal characters regardless of them being the last fight, or don't include them at all. 02:50, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * While that argument is far more well-thought-out and stated, I still must say that they are being put on the exact same level as the other bosses for over 50 other fighters, and saying those few that use the others are exceptions because so-and-so is bilge. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:38, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know being at the end of a route isn't the only thing that makes a boss a boss. But in Smash Bros., that's what a boss is in regards to Classic Mode. I agree on adding additional bosses to templates who fit this role. 12:05, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I don't think I'll be changing my vote (since Giant DK and Metal Mario ARE "mid" bosses, and particularly because of Alex's response: not every boss will be at the end of a stage/world/what have you, as I don't think the opposition is arguing that, and it depends on the game anyway; but the ends of stages/worlds/etc. are usually where you see them). But I can say with utmost confidence that Seven's argument for his position is at least far more compelling in its nature. -- 00:31, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

Okay. 17:36, September 15, 2019 (EDT)
 * 1) They aren't bosses because they have no healthbar: No? Even a cursory glance at Smash 4's Master Core will tell you the opposite.
 * 2) They aren't bosses because Xander Mobus says "Ready, go!": And it isn't just because of a programming oversight? I'd rather not assume things.
 * 3) These bosses have no knockback: The game would be pretty easy if the bosses were launchable, since you would be able to launch them off the stage before depleting their health.
 * 4) The bosses have "none of these things": First, overuse of bold italics is normally considered bad form, as both are used for emphasis, so using bold italics basically makes you look like you're quite literally screaming "this ain't a boss". Second, boss battles don't need to have some specific criteria. Giant DK and Metal Mario are both callbacks to Melee.
 * 5) They're not treated differently from the characters: My reasoning above applies here as well.
 * 6) They aren't always fought at the end: No matter where they're fought, they're still powered-up foes.

Determine which characters count as bosses in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate: Round 2
Here we go again!

I tried to bring up this issue a few years back claiming that not everyone fought at the end of Classic Mode counts as a boss. Despite me providing my reasonings as to why I felt that way, the proposal was met with lots of opposition, finishing things off with a 4-0-9 vote against the notion. I figured I'd give this yet another go-round to hopefully enact these changes compared to what happened last time and address any and all complaints brought up previously.

To recap in lots of plentiful paragraphs:
 * 1) Giga Bowser, Galleom, Dharkon, Galeem, Marx, Dracula, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Rathalos and Ganon (all of which appear in both Classic Mode and World of Light) have health bars at the top of the screen, which aren't the same as damage percentages or the Stamina mode health bars. Of note, one user tried to use Master Core as an example of a boss with no visible health bar. The proposal was deliberately not taking that into consideration; it was focused solely on the bosses in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.
 * 2) These bosses don't have the announcer say "Ready? Go!" at the start of the battle. The announcer only starts the battle during regular Smash battles in other occurrences throughout the game, including for any giant or metal opponent in Classic Mode, even if it's at the end of a certain character's route.
 * 3) These bosses can't suffer any knockback whatsoever. Compare that to the other playable fighters, who can suffer knockback (even if it takes a while to do so for giant and metal characters).
 * 4) The "so-called" bosses at the end of Classic Mode (those being a Giant Donkey Kong, a Giant Palutena and a Metal Mario, to name a few) have none of these things. These battles play literally just like any other Smash battle in the game. Not only that, most of them are essentially a playable character under the effect of a permanent Super Mushroom or Metal Box, just like other opponents found in other character's Classic Modes (like Kirby fighting a Giant Yoshi and a Giant Wario or the Dragon Quest Hero fighting a Giant Charizard after defeating Robin for his final round) and others are literally just some playable characters back-to-back (like with the final round for both Hero and Mega Man). They may be neat callbacks to certain games but that alone does not make them bosses.
 * 5) Not to mention, those "so-called" bosses seem to not be treated differently by the game at all; treated the exact same as a regular playable character before the battle begins. For example, in Kirby's Classic Mode, he has to fight a Giant Yoshi in Round 2 and a Giant Wario in Round 4. Before the battles, there's nothing that indicates the opponents are going to be giant-sized until after the starting countdown. Same with the "so-called" bosses, in which even SmashWiki does not consider to be actual bosses. Make of that what you will.
 * 6) The actual bosses in Classic Mode, depending on which character is selected, are not always fought for the final round. Some characters fight the boss before the final round (Mega Man, Bowser, the Dragon Quest Hero and Sephiroth come to mind); the actual final round for some characters is against one or more regular characters at once or a series of regular characters, one after another (Bowser, Mega Man, Jigglypuff, Bayonetta and Terry come to mind); sometimes it's a fight against a regular playable character and then the boss (Pikachu and the Pokémon Trainer both come to mind).
 * 7) Before the last round in question, the game calls it the "Final Round." Even if the Japanese version calls it the "Boss" round, not everyone fights a boss at the end of their Classic Mode and some face it before that point, as discussed above. Might be another source of confusion or they could be getting confused from some "All Boss" YouTube videos which include the so-called ones already described.
 * 8) Some users claimed that certain opponents count as bosses because of their powered-up nature or that a boss is the last obstacle for completion. The reason why some may think this way is because of the general assumption that "anyone fought at the end of an arcade-style mode is a boss." And while it is true for certain games (Shadow Kirby being the final boss of the Single-Handed Mode in Kirby Fighters 2, for instance), it isn't the case for others. And one of those others is, of course, some of the Classic Mode paths in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Not to mention, in general, enemies also serve the same purpose to stand in your way to accomplish a goal. It doesn't have to be an end-of-stage or mid-boss. Another user provided what we, the wiki, define a boss in the list of bosses article. While it is usually true for most games in the series, we need to take a look at some exceptions and not the rule, with the Classic Mode in Ultimate being one of those exceptions.

Your three potential options are the exact same as last time:

1) Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters or just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template.

Conditions:
 * The Giant or Metal playable characters and regular-old-playable characters with no changes whatsoever from the template will be removed.
 * The bosses present in that section are ones who appear in both World of Light and Classic Mode (Giga Bowser, Ratahlos, Galleom, Master Hand, Galeem, Dracula, Marx, Ganon, Crazy Hand and Dharkon).

2) Add a new section in the template to categorize the Giant or Metal fighters and regular playable characters under a new header.

Conditions:
 * A new section in the template will be added, which contains the Giant or Metal playable characters and others.
 * The bosses from both World of Light and Classic Mode (Giga Bowser, Ratahlos, Galleom, Master Hand, Galeem, Dracula, Marx, Ganon, Crazy Hand and Dharkon) will be in the same section as previously if this option passes.
 * New section name suggestions can go in the comments.

3) Do absolutely nothing.

Conditions:
 * The dreaded selection and should not be chosen under any circumstances.
 * Those who select it will be counterpointed and persuaded in the comments below.

With all that out of the way, it's time to place your vote! Should regular and/or permanent giant or metal variations of playable characters fought at the end of a Classic Mode count as bosses or not?

Proposer: Deadline: April 30, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters and just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template

 * 1) My preferred option and the one that makes the most logical sense.

Add a new section in the template and categorize these fighters under a new header relating to Classic Mode

 * 1) My second preferred option. Assuming that some of you still want to include notions like that in the table, then might as well be in a separate section instead of grouped together with all the other actual bosses.

Do absolutely nothing

 * 1) Nothing has changed. "No" means "no." I also fail to see why that Smashwiki thing gets a bold-and-italic as if that's some sort of ultimate (no pun intended) proof, considering they are a fan-based wiki like us, and one I have a negative opinion of regarding their methods anyway.
 * 2) - Per doc

Comments
If the game does not consider Giant or Metal variations of characters or even actual playable characters as bosses, then might as well agree with the game and not deal with any semantics. So, if someone can look into the game files and see if the "so-called" bosses (like a giant Donkey Kong, a metal Mario, etc.) really are classified as such, then share your findings in the comments below and I'll update the proposal if needed. The same applies if your findings result in those characters "not" being considered as such. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 23:18, April 15, 2021 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick: What do you mean "nothing has changed"? All my points still apply and those points still point to the "so-called" bosses not counting as such. As I've stated in a comment, if someone could look through the game's code and see if the game considers them as such or not, then I can change this proposal accordingly. If that isn't the case over the course of these next 2 weeks, then we should agree with the game and not go through any semantics as I've discussed. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 23:32, April 15, 2021 (EDT)