Talk:Flutter

Artwork
Flutter hasn't had artwork since SMW2, but recently received artwork for Mario Party: Island Tour. Unfortunately, that artwork has Mini Stars in it. Would it be better to use the more recent artwork, or better to use the older, non-specialized artwork? MarioComix (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2014 (EST)
 * You can always crop out the Ministars, but the resolution of the artwork is not big enough to put it in an infobox. 20:58, 3 January 2014 (EST)

Mario Golf World Tour
He is in it as a spectator in the eighth hole in wiggler park.
 * I've added the information. MarioComix (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Merging with Wiggler...?
I don't see a strong enough reason to merge Flutter with Wiggler. Firstly, they are unique characters, one basically being the winged form of the other (and we do discern between all different versions of enemies, after all). I am aware that they share the same Japanese name - however, "Hana-chan" basically refers to Wiggler like a proper name. It's like calling Wiggler "Miss Flower", so when Wiggler transforms into a butterfly it keeps its name "Miss Flower". Finally, we have official localisations consistently referring to them as distinct characters. By merging Flutter into Wiggler, we'd have to keep switching back and forth discussing Wiggler and Flutter within sections, and it could get messy. MarioComix (talk) 16:51, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Indeed. I'm generally for merging things with the same Japanese name that are intended to be based off each other, but this seems like a clear variation to me, like the Boo Buddy formations. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:55, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Bulbapedia gets to have separate pages for evolved forms, and we don't? smh
 * EDIT: Just because something has the same Japanese name, but a different English name, doesn't mean we go with the Japanese name. As an English wiki, the English name takes priority, and the two are different types of characters anyway. 16:58, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, no, merging these would be a really bad idea. -- 17:00, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Though they have the same Japanese name, they are very different from regular Wiggler, so I agree they should stay separate. -- 17:06, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * They are very clearly meant to be separate species. 17:09, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Well it is the same species, just a different stage of life, though I also agree to keep them separate. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:11, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's worth noting that the JP have have is from the SMA3 guide, it's possible it's been updated since then anyways since they've now appeared alongside normal Wigglers. Wouldn't be the only one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:14, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * I again, want to tell you that we go specifically on creator's intent. See here. We merged Big Bertha with Boss Bass because there is no Japanese distinction. They are intented to be the same enemy. I strongly support. -- 04:10, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'd rather have started a proposal, but, seeing the major disagreement, and we're only two to agree with that. I wonder what would Misted Wu think about it. -- 04:22, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Imo, it's a bit speculative to assume Wigglers and Flutters are meant to be the same thing, considering how many "winged X" type enemies the Mario series has. If anything, I'd assume the guide used Wiggler's name generically, similar to what Prima did with Goomba (balloon). Niiue (talk) 04:55, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * @FOY Many people have spoken here and you are the only person to say they should be merged. Until we get a platformer game where they can switch on a whim or something like that, these should stay split. Chomp may be merged as it's a completely different situation, as they have been known to seemingly switch. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:04, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Granted, the Futter Orb does seem to be called "Hana-chan Capsule", but that's because they're basically the same face but different body (and abilities). Even if by creator's intent they are meant to be the same entity, for convenience's sake we should keep them separate since Flutters would then be a unique form of Wiggler. (I still argue that "Hana-chan" is being used as a proper name here, it's like if you had a pet caterpillar and named it "Miss Flower", you probably wouldn't change its name when it turned into a butterfly. Or perhaps, a pet tadpole that grew into a frog.) MarioComix (talk) 17:44, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's also worth mentioning that we usually split out winged variants of enemies from their normal counterparts (barring Super Mario Maker). 22:58, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * To be fair, the "Hana-chan Capsule" spawns a Wiggler first. It asks you for coins and once you give it enough coins, then it'll transform to Flutter. Edit: Also, that Japanese name is shared with the English name, being the "Wiggler Capsule", and the appearance of that capsule is a Wiggler, while the succeeding orb in Mario Party 6 is renamed and changed to Flutter (Flutters at the time had pink noses). 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT)

Out of curiosity, what is its quote in the Paper Mario game when it turns into a Flutter? -- 05:24, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * The thing at the top of the page. The change itself was offscreen. Unless you meant JP version, but you didn't say that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:36, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yes, i was referring to the Japanese version. I forgot to mention it. -- 05:38, March 24, 2019 (EDT)

"We go on creator's intent." Says who? I don't remember reading that in MarioWiki:Naming. 17:50, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's the general consensus on here, and helps avoid awkward situations like this famepalm-inducing.....thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:08, March 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'd ask to to be sure about what does that Wiggler says in the Japanese version then. -- 04:17, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think you're putting too much stock in the Japanese name. While, yes, Flutters were originally called "Flying Wigglers" and could've easily fit on the Wiggler page should this wiki been made around the time of Yoshi's Island, that would not be the case today. In English, the two characters have different names, different properties, different roles, and the only connection is Flutter "evolves" from a Wiggler. There are a few cases where Wiggler can change back and forth, but even then, it's more akin to how Mario turns into Super Mario. Flutter's an improved form of Wiggler in a similar fashion to Tanooki Mario being an improved form of Mario. 14:34, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm not sure if "creator's intent" is the right phrase to go off of, but we do cover cases of inconsistent localization, which can be considered under "Name changes". Although Japanese Wikipedia uses the name 「成虫のハナチャン」 (Seichū no Hanachan, or "Imago Wiggler"), but I don't know if that is a fan-name or if there is an official source. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:27, March 25, 2019 (EDT)

The Japanese dialogue in Paper Mario: Sticker Star points to Flutter being an adult (「大人 」) Hana-chan as well as its true form (「本当 の姿 」), this is good for us as they're kept distinct enough that we don't have to worry too much about them having a different name in English, though both of them being Hana-chan is something that we have to keep in mind should Nintendo pull another Mario Power Tennis case. They definitely are not a different species.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:37, March 25, 2019 (EDT)

According to List of characters in Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition, there is both a "Wiggler & Flame Chomp" and "Flutter & FLame Chomp" unit. I wonder how the Japanese version handled that. MarioComix (talk) 21:53, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * According to this site and this site, their names are Wiggler & Flame Chomp (larva) (「ハナチャン・ケロンパ(ようちゅう)」) and Wiggler & Flame Chomp (imago) (「ハナチャン・ケロンパ(せいちゅう)」).--Mister Wu (talk) 22:46, March 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Wikipedia Japan is unreliable (unless they found an actual source, i kinda wonder what does it says about the Spiked Fun Guy and Needlenoses), as far as i can tell. -- 03:09, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * That's not Wikipedia, ergo your response makes no sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:25, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * No need to go on with the "ergo" part, still it's correct to state that my response didn't mention the Japanese Wikipedia, rather two independent online sites about Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition. Since I couldn't find a video showcasing these units, I tried looking at the Japanese online sites that listed the units. The two I found are two different sites that are nonethless consistent on these names,it is thefore likely that those are the actual names used in the game. The name used for Flutter is also similar to the one found in the Japanese Wikipedia by, so the game is possibly the source of said name as well.--Mister Wu (talk) 07:40, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Gotcha covered. Names match. SmokedChili (talk) 12:18, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Thanks!--Mister Wu (talk) 14:50, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * If those names are basically referring to the forms as "Wiggler (larval)" and "Wiggler (grown-up)" (a bit of interpretation there on my part), then I think it would be fine to keep Flutter separate, but make it clear that they are specifically the grown form of a Wiggler rather than a derived species (even though the rules for that are a bit loose). MarioComix (talk) 23:05, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Eh, not really. All the more reason to use "entity" instead of "species." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:24, March 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Indeed, going by that infobox, we should keep Wiggler and Flutter together to not imply they are a different species, I'd personally just leave Derived and Related so we don't need to find a proper term and keep things simple, without particular assumptions.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:11, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * The merge isn't a bad idea, but it also inevitably opens up a can of worms for merging other winged enemies with their non-winged counterparts, which is one of the reasons why I'd strongly advise against doing this. Heck, I'm surprised you didn't even mention Beach Koopa, as they too have a similar Japanese name as their counterparts and are even less differentiable from their counterparts (not that I'd agree to merge that page either). 15:23, April 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * The fact that there is a Japanese distinction [Hana-chan (larval) and Hana-chan (imago)], in a game released as recent as 2015 (versus something from ten years prior), indicates that there is a strong basis to keep Wiggler and Flutter separate. Not only does this work for functional purposes (where Wigglers and Flutters differ in role and function in various games), but it's basically what we already do with things like Piranha Plant and Piranha Plant (potted). MarioComix (talk) 22:17, April 17, 2019 (EDT)

It's established that "species" is treated loosely in terms of Mario creatures, referring to any separate entities. Again, argumentum ad creatorsintentium is such a meaningless and vapid argument, can you stop using it? It's not a substitute for actual argument. In this specific case, it's completely counterproductive for us as an English wiki that documents clearly separate entities that happen to share a Japanese name. 16:27, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Another problem with rigidly going to "creator's intent" is that many more recent arguments with it don't take into account the simple fact that intent can and usually does change. Quite regularly. Thy may have been intended as a simple alternate take on Wiggler back then, but at this point, they're clearly intended as distinct, but close entities. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:29, April 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * And sometimes, localizers make the more sensible call. It happens. Perhaps Japanese name should be used as a crutch for more ambiguous cases, but it just doesn't stand on its own. English name should take priority as most people would look up a creature based on an English name from, perhaps, a guide that has the name, and not from a Japanese guide or an otherwise obscure source. Flutter gets its own page, people aren't going to be confused about its relationship with Wigglers. 17:41, April 16, 2019 (EDT)

Well i agree on this Flutter is just a form. not a completely different character.
 * For what it's worth, the internal name for this form of Wiggler is called "HanachanImago" in Yoshi's Crafted World, which is a title where younger Wigglers do not exist. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:08, June 24, 2019 (EDT)