Talk:Mario & Luigi (series)

should this really have an article, well theres only two games? Koopa-Troopa

Yes. It's a series. It needs an article. End of story.

And now there's a third game. I'll add a blurb about it. CrossEyed7 02:55, 2 October 2008 (EDT) And now there's a forth game. -

SSBB
Why is Brawl mentioned in this article? It's not from the series, therefore it shouldn't be there. Fawfulfury65
 * This is an encyclopedia. It is not uncommon that games are mentioned in other articles, and not to mention it clearly states the relation between Brawl and this series. A Link to the Present 19:43, 21 January 2011 (EST)

Problem
Because of the M&L3 part of the article, the SSBB and boxs part is not right. Could someone fix that, please ? Koopalmier 08:29, 20 September 2009 (EDT)

Do you mean that the infobox is in the way? I can fix that. Also what's with the big spaces between the games. I'm fixing those right now. Fawfulfury65

Trivia move
The trivia about bowser helping the bros. should not be in the trivia section, but in the "similarities between the games". 23:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Uhh... there is no trivia section anymore.


 * This post was from 2010, so you didn't have to respond to it, M&L.-- Hyper [[File:YI Red Yoshi Animated Sprite.gif]]   Yoshi  14:17, 8 January 2012 (EST)

I know... but I wanted to say something anyway.
 * Hey, how come Fawful has two links yet Mario and Luigi only have one? We should either delete the second Fawful link or create another Mario and Luigi link.M&amp;L Beware my fury! 19:52, 27 January 2012 (EST)

similair between games...
in all three the games, bowser tries to kidnap peach, but fails

There is also at least one pair of characters similar to Mario and Luigi, with the older member of the pair being or wearing the color red while the younger one is being or wearing the color green. WarioMan1983

Similarities between this and the Paper Mario series
I think there are enough similarities between this series and the Paper Mario series to warrant a new section. For example, the third instalments of both games feature 2D platforming, a psychotic antagonist who spouts similes and self-destructs after being defeated to destroy the protagonists towards the end, Bowser as a newly playable character, et cetera. What do you think, and where would it go? ~Harpesian~

Baby Bowser
I bit trivial I know, but wouldn't Baby Bowser fit more in the minor antagonist section than the main antagonist section? I dunno, it just seems that Baby Bowser is more fitting with Midbus and Popple in terms of appearance and presence, and he just wasn't really a major villain in PiT.


 * I agree: if no one opposes, feel free to change it.


 * 02:19, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
 * I also think it'd be better to move his entry. - 02:21, 8 July 2013 (EDT)

Antagonist Bowser
Should'nt Bowser be in antagonists? -

Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam Artwork
Are we considering the artwork released in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, part of the series or not? I tried to upload the artwork for Mario, Luigi, and Starlow from Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam to the Characters section but they were reverted back to their Mario & Luigi: Dream Team artwork by another user. So, I just wanted to know why that was and if there's some type of policy? --Pokeguy721 (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
 * It's not that, it's just that we don't replace character images in their respective infoboxes until the game is released, as per the guidelines in, outlined by this line: "Note that the infobox cannot be updated while a game is still upcoming: it can only be changed after the game is released." It would be reasonable to assume it carries over to here. Hope that helps, and sorry if you had any confusion on this! 22:41, 18 June 2015 (EDT)

Similarities Between The Games
In the part where the playable characters say "Nintendo" when the game boots up, Mario and Luigi also say that in Bowser's Inside Story.

Also, could you say that in every game, before one boss battle, Luigi tries to leave, but is stopped by someone.

Dream Team Unwinnable Battle
There is an unwinnable battle in Dream Team! It's the one against Bowser and bat Antasma. At the end of the battle, Bowser has a giant purple flame that knocks the Bros. out cold. It's unwinnable and the sentence that says it isn't should be changed, right? - 14:26, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm not seeing where that sentence is. Regardless, are you sure it's unwinnable? Is it story-related to have the bros. lose? 14:31, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There is a section "Similarities between Games", and it says that all games except Dream Team have an unwinnable battle. If you've played Dream Team, you might remember that after Bowser knocks the Bros. out with his purple flame, Eldream comes and helps them out of the Dream World. - 14:38, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I've never played Dream Team, which is why I'm asking this question :P Okay that sounds plot-relevant, but I want to make sure: is it possible to avoid the flame? 14:41, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I think he means after the fight ends, not during the fight. I've played that section multiple times and I still remember it after all this time. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Okay, if the event occurs after the fight, then the battle itself is technically winnable. 14:49, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * So Bowser and Antasma leave the battle and then in the following cutscene Bowser breathes the purple flame. Here's a video: .  It will start at the right time (I hope you don't care about spoilers). However, that doesn't show the scene with Eldream, so here's another link: .  It may not exactly be unwinnable (as it shows the victory screen), but it should at least be noted. BTW, I actually got an edit conflict when I posted this comment. - 14:58, 7 October 2017 (EDT)
 * If it isn't already, the event can be noted in Dream Team's plot section. Mentioning the event itself here works, too. 15:17, 7 October 2017 (EDT)

Cover
should the fact that starting with Bowser's Inside story the games cover of the game cases are just altered variations?Pikmin theories (talk) 20:18, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

Another Similarity between All Five Games
I’m telling you that in all five games, there are battles that give players a limited number of turns or amount of time to defeat the boss before a Game Over.

Superstar Saga: Roy, Wendy and Larry.

Partners in Time: Elder Shrooboid in it’s Larger Form.

Bowser’s Inside Story: Fawful Express.

Dream Team: Pi’illodium when it’s about to explode.

Paper Jam: King Bob-Omb

About Bowser Jr.'s Journey.
Hi people. Is Bowser Jr. considered now a main character of the series due to the release of this minigame on Bowser's Inside Story? For those who don't know, he has an artwork. Regards.--62.151.100.188 15:08, 1 January 2019 (EST)HyPab03
 * Considering that Captain Goomba is considered a main character, We can safely assume Bowser Jr. counts as one too.--Thatguy62 (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2019 (EST)

Tutorial "bosses"
(I'm putting this on this talk page since it's a common thing across the franchise, save Paper Jam.) Our game articles currently list the one-off "tutorial" fights as "bosses." Almost all of these have normal fight music and normal enemy defeat effects (if they don't just crumple over or flee). The fights I am talking about are Bowser and Fawful (first fight) in Superstar Saga, Baby Bowser and Jr. Shrooboid in Partners in Time, Bowser (first fight), Midbus (first fight), Broque Monsieur, and Broggy in Bowser's Inside Story, and the (fake?) Antasma in Dream Team. Of these, the only one to not use the normal enemy battle music is Antasma, instead using his leitmotif from the rest of the game, and the only ones to use the "boss defeated" enemy effects are Broggy and Antasma (while some actual bosses don't even get that). Additionally, none of them aside from maybe Fawful are really encountered as an actual boss fight (ie the difficult fight acting as the climax of an area), as all are simply tutorials for game mechanics with a character (usually named Toadsworth) butting in and freezing time to instruct on timing, with nearly all being scripted events that are impossible to fail. In essence, they are no more "bosses" than the similarly unique tutorial fights against the Elite Goombules or the Hammerhead Bros. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:04, August 1, 2021 (EDT)
 * I should point out that Junior Shrooboid does use the boss theme, and in the Bowser's Inside Story remake Bowser uses the boss theme instead of the normal battle theme. 05:16, August 1, 2021 (EDT)
 * Noted, but it still uses the "normal enemy" defeat animation, which normally only applies to bosses when they are in a group. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:55, August 17, 2021 (EDT)

Stop considering tutorial fights "bosses"
See the above section, where they are listed. Almost all of these are treated as scripted unique enemy encounters used solely to introduce a mechanic and as such no not really fit the definition of a boss, and with few exceptions, most also have normal enemy battle themes and defeat effects (if any defeat effects). The only ones to have boss music are PiT's Junior Shrooboid, DT's inexplicable Antasma (which uses his theme), and BiS remake's meeting-room Bowser; the only ones with boss defeat effects are Broggy and the unexplained Antasma. Basically, the majority of these at least are no more bosses than the Elite Goombules in BiS, and only marginally moreso than SS's Hammerhead Bros. in that they are defeated at all.

To recap, these are
 * Superstar Saga:
 * Bowser
 * Fawful 1
 * Partners in Time:
 * Baby Bowser
 * Junior Shrooboid
 * Bowser's Inside Story:
 * Bowser 1
 * Midbus 1
 * Broque Monsieur
 * Broggy
 * Dream Team:
 * Antasma 1

I'm including options base on the music and effects due to those being usually indicators of boss status.

Proposer: Deadline: April 24, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Stop considering any of these boss fights

 * 1) - Per
 * 2) - 100% agreed with classifying tutorial encounters as a unique type that's neither an enemy nor a boss, per comments below.
 * 3) Agree with classifying tutorial encounters as a completely separate thing. We could even create a category for them.
 * 4) I agree with the proposal, and I feel like the opposition is not stating any valid reasons to oppose.

Do nothing

 * 1) This is just being arbitrary and picky to me.
 * 2) I personally don't think it matters too much if we consider them bosses or not, regardless of their status as tutorial bosses. We don't stop considering Welcome To Yoshi's Island a level, even if it's a tutorial level you only play once.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Agreed with Tails777
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
Is there any meaningful gain we get from the semantics here? It seems kind of pedantic and the issue itself isn't much of an issue. 03:46, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * It's been annoying me for a long time? Anyways, calling something a boss when by all factors it's not is disingenuous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:57, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * I want to side with guides again here, but it's actually pretty inconsistent. Fawful on the Koopa Cruiser to be a boss by the Superstar Saga Player's Guide (32 & 126), and he and Bowser are considered bosses by the Superstar Saga Prima guide (page 32 note: "The only enemies not found in this chapter are the game's Bosses. Any enemy Mario and Luigi must defeat to progress through the Superstar Saga storyline is considered a Boss enemy."). The Partners in Time Player's Guide is inconclusive (Baby Bowser and Junior Shrooboid have blurbs like minor bosses and notable enemies and don't have a "BOSS" label like major bosses). Then the Bowser's Inside Story Prima guide does something interesting by considering 1st Bowser (147), 1st Midbus (148), and both Broque Monsieur and Broggy (150) to be enemies, separate from the bosses section that starts on page 172. Finally, the Dream Team Prima guide is inconclusive (1st Antasma isn't listed among either enemies or bosses). I wonder if maybe they can be considered unique "tutorial" characters since the guides flip-flop on this over time. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:33, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * I'd be happy with adding a "tutorial" encounter type. We could also list PM things like Goombario, Eldstar, Prof. Frankly, and Goombella like that. I'd also be for ditching that bold/underline thing in favor of listing them, since some entities have multiple roles. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:39, April 10, 2022 (EDT)

@Tails We don't consider it a "boss" level though. The fact remains that these are tutorial encounters, not tutorial "bosses." This would be like considering Professor Frankly in TTYD a boss. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:39, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * That's a fair point, though at the same time, Frankly's tutorial fight is entirely optional. All these fights are still mandatory. While I still don't think it's a big deal on if they're considered bosses or not, I don't deny there are good reasons not to consider them as such (mostly the way they end and the inconsistent music themes, especially with Partners in Time.) For now, I'm kinda wagering on "It's not exactly harming anything".
 * It will harm even less to change them. I personally consider it a nuisance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:07, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * IDK we already have a backlog of passed TPPs. This isn't really straightforward to implement, you'll have to look through the pages. Is it worth rummaging through the wiki and making sure the thing is passed all for the sake of precise semantics? 16:20, April 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * In a word: yes. If it hadn't needed a proposal, I'd have already done so myself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:39, April 10, 2022 (EDT)

I am a tad miffed that the opposition here amounts to "why do you even care lol" rather than any actual reason these should be considered bosses. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:53, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * So in the event this proposal fails, should the Bowser's Inside Story tutorial fights be reclassified as enemies and the first Antasma fight in Dream Team be flat-out removed, per the game guides? The opposition has yet to address this. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:02, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * Opposition never said anything about doing everything per the guides. I will say that having a section for tutorial bosses is a much better solution than trying to lump these with standard enemies. This proposal probably should have reflected something along those lines because I probably would have supported if it did. 15:07, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * I decided to walk back on my absolute opposition, but I defintely agree that a separate tutorial boss designation is better than simply lumping them together with regular enemies. I would be more likely to actually support that, as I feel that the tutorial bosses are still distinct even if they do differ from regular bosses. -- 15:42, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * It feels like in the end, they qualify as bosses. 16:55, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * Not in any way beyond being characters with speaking roles that can't be re-fought, which is...not what a boss is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:47, April 16, 2022 (EDT)