Talk:Captain Toad

Same as Toad Brigade Captain
Why is it written here that the Captain Toad from 3D World is a different character than the one from the Galaxy games? They look exactly the same, have almost the exact same names, both appear in 3D Platfomers, the whole Toad Brigade appears in the ending of 3D World and his Galaxy theme plays in the Captain Toad levels of 3D World (and their purpose is the same too: They help to collect Stars).

He's OBVIOUSLY intended to be the same character as the one from the Galaxy games. Only change is the name, which is barely changed (1 word was removed and the rest switched). By this logic should we consider the Queen Bee from the Galaxy games to be a different character than the one from Mario Kart 7 because she's named "Honey Queen" there?

The info about the Brigade Captain needs to be merged into this article. There is literally no reason why they should be seperate (if there is then I'd gladly want someone to tell me).

It's not like this is the only time Nintendo has changed a character's name.

Besides both the Super Mario 3D World and Toad Brigade articles refer to them as the same person so why doesn't this article? it just makes no sense! User:MarioMaster720


 * Take a look at this Talk Page Proposal, and the section below it.


 * 00:45, 18 December 2013 (EST)

This is true, these guys are the same, this is exactly like the Green Stars dispute and is why i'm losing faith in Super Mario Wiki. -444MarioSonic 12/23/2013


 * May somebody add key points in that argument because I don't have the will to read through every paragraph in that "essay" below the proposal? 14:51, 6 January 2014 (EST)

If Blue Toad from Super Mario 3D World is indeed Toad, that doesn't mean this Toad isn't the same character from Galaxy
This is just silly guys, HE IS THE SAME CHARACTER, THEY HAVE THE SAME THEME SONG. So what if his appearence and name were slightly altered, Nintendo does that often. In fact, Nintendo JUST changed Toad's colors for Super Mario 3D World. Also, what says that the Toad Brigade Captain from Super Mario Galaxy is THE toad? There are plenty of other toads roaming around the mushroom kingdom. I didn't see a single reference in Galaxy that made it seem like the Toad Brigade Captain was the quintessential Toad, I think the Galaxy info should be added to this article and Toad simply doesn't appear in galaxy. (Although there are plenty of Toads with blue vests that would fill his role better than the Toad Brigade Captain...) User:Mariosonic444
 * If you disagree, you can make a TPP in a week or so to overturn that decision 15:27, 26 December 2013 (EST)

What is a TPP? (I don't usually participate in discussions) user:mariosonic444


 * It's assumed throughout the wiki that the "Toad Brigade Captain" is actually the character Toad. However, in Super Mario 3D World, the blue Toad has been officially confirmed to be the character Toad. Therefore this Captain Toad shouldn't believed to be the same as the Toad Brigade Captain because the role of the character Toad has already been filled.


 * 20:21, 28 December 2013 (EST)

Excuse me, exactly WHERE in Super Mario Galaxy is the Toad Brigade Captain referred to as THE Toad?

user:mariosonic444


 * I believe "assumed" is the key word in YoshiKong's comment. It likely has something to do with his role as the leader of the Brigade and being the most adventurous, traits easily ascribable to THE Toad. Lord Grammaticus (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2013 (EST)

I already gave my piece of mind about this on Blue Toad's talk page, and I'll say it again. I find it a stretch that Toad Brigade Captain and Captain Toad would be a different person just because we believe Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad, who himself is the SM3DW Toad. I'd like to adress YoshiKong with this: Did you ever read it further than the bolded out of these quotes from the Iwata Asks section?

''Koizumi: Talking about cuteness reminded me of how Toad used to look pretty plain, but because he gets cat ears this time his looks cuter overall. That and with how he can quickly dash around, I think he turned into an incredibly appealing character.

''Iwata: Yeah. It may be rude to his fans to say it like this, but Toad is a surprisingly popular character.''

''Koizumi: Right. There's even gameplay this time that features Toad.''

Hayashida: Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".

In this part of the interview we have both SM3DW Toad and Captain Toad referred to as "Toad", but "Captain Toad" is also mentioned when making a comment about his tune. You know, the one we heard many times when meeting Toad Brigade Captain. And now its Captain Toad's theme. It's thus legit to say that the two are the same, and it's acknowledged by the developers themselves.

And before you guys say anything, I know how this would affect the articles if we were to assume for this to be true. We'd have to stop believing that The Toad is not Toad Brigade Captain, because in this case it would mean he would also be Captain Toad. That in turn wouldn't match with this wiki's current statement that The Toad is also SM3DW Toad, because he would be two characters in the same game. Personally, I never believed that The Toad is Toad Brigade Captain, and as such I'd say if Toad Brigade Captain's is moved to Captain Toad's page, we could at least leave a small mention of The Toad being referenced in Super Mario Galaxy games. SmokedChili (talk) 05:12, 30 December 2013 (EST)
 * Edit: Removed the link in my previous post. SmokedChili (talk) 05:49, 30 December 2013 (EST)

in fact the Spanish version still name it as "Jefe de Cuadrilla Toad" which in English means "Toad Brigade Captain" I think we should move the information of the Toad from Super Mario Galaxy here

The Toad Brigade Captain was never ever referred to as THE Toad, and I'm frankly surprised anyone thought it was THE Toad. Didn't he talk as if he hadn't met Mario before? And his colour scheme wasn't even the same. The information should be merged here ASAP, it seems silly to even argue about it, they're obviously the same guy.

As for THE Toad, I think the problem is that in most games, Toad is like Yoshi, it's hard to tell which one is THE Toad, or if there even IS one. The blue Toad is the closest they've come to having a consistent look for a single playable Toad character (and is a throwback to SMB2). Fizzle (talk) 09:33, 3 January 2014 (EST)
 * Agreed, I don't even think The Toad is Toad Brigade Captain. However, we do have this policy that everything official stated is canon, and this apparently means anyone with the generic Toad profile (which can only be used for The Toad) is The Toad. And yet we have a trading card of The Toad in Super Mario Galaxy. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 14:40, 3 January 2014 (EST)

TPP: Merge Toad Brigade Captain and Captain Toad
MERGE TOAD BRIGADE CAPTAIN TO CAPTAIN TOAD 2-13-3

There was about a month ago another talk page proposal where the Toad from Super Mario 3D World was proposed to be The Toad, and it passed. As per proposal, the related info was moved from Blue Toad (character) to Toad (character), and Captain Toad was given his own article. What I don't agree with this is that because Toad Brigade Captain is also The Toad, as proved by this, the decision of SM3DW Toad being The Toad itself denies the possibility of Captain Toad being Toad Brigade Captain. Granted, it was pointed that there's no evidence to support this, which I'm questioning here. The settled proposal argued that Captain Toad is based on Toad Brigade Captain, using a quote from Iwata Asks:

Hayashida: Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".

Only the italicized part was quoted to support this. The second half that mentioned Captain Toad's theme was ignored. This theme was taken from Super Mario Galaxy, where it was played whenever Toad Brigade Captain appeared. Since Toad Brigade Captain's theme is called Captain Toad's theme, it can only mean the two are actually the one and same, rather than the latter being based on the former. This leads to my point of merging Toad Brigade Captain and Captain Toad together, as we have the developer's word to support this.

However, how this merge should be done is another issue. I'd be content if all the info about Toad Brigade Captain was moved to Captain Toad's page, but there's proof that Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad, which also means The Toad = Captain Toad. This doesn't match with SM3DW Toad being The Toad, because then we'd have a game giving the singular Toad two roles. It was also argued in the settled proposal that since SM3DW Toad is called "Toad", this supports him being The Toad rather than Blue Toad and Captain Toad not being The Toad or Toad Brigade Captain by the same logic. But is the name, which can be used of either the species or inviduals, including those who are not The invidual, really strong enough evidence to overthrow the statement that makes two characters one? If you supported Captain Toad being The Toad, that means you'd support The Toad having an alternate name of Captain Toad. Thus, there shouldn't be a problem if SM3DW Toad was moved back to Blue Toad (character) article, because of Captain Toad being The Toad.

Long story short: Toad Brigade Captain and Captain Toad are the same character based on the developer's words about Toad Brigade Captain's theme being Captain Toad's. Toad Brigade Captain is also proved to be The Toad. Options are merging Captain Toad article with Toad (character) article and moving the info about SM3DW Toad back to Blue Toad (character), moving the info about Toad Brigade Captain to Captain Toad article, or keeping them as they currently are.

Proposer: Deadline: January 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Merge Captain Toad with Toad (character) and move current Super Mario 3D World info about Toad to Blue Toad (character)

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) The main Toad is red not blue.

Move info about Toad Brigade Captain from Toad (character) to Captain Toad

 * 1) I'll probably be the minority vote here, but this quote from the developer: "[...]in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes 'ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-'." hints that Toad Brigade Captain and Captain Toad is the same character. There are no sources confirming that Toad Brigade Captain is the same as "Toad", so that opens the possibility of a reasonable merge, and Super Mario 3D World somewhat disproves this notion (that Brigade Captain guy is Toad). In other words, ToadBC.png = Toad Brigade Captain Artwork - Super Mario 3D World.png, and ToadBC.png =/= Toad Solo MK7.png, and Toad Solo MK7.png = Toad Artwork - Super Mario 3D World.png
 * 2) Per Mario
 * 3) Per Mario the developers OFFICIALLY declare it as the same character. and even has the same name in Spanish ("Jefe De Cuadrilla Toad") "Jefe" means that the Leader or Captain and "Cuadrilla Toad" is the Spanish name of the Toad Brigade also for my comment in below seccion.
 * 4) Per Mario
 * 5) Per Mario
 * 6) – Per MarioYoshi2 in the comments: he's the only one that's actually making sense to me amongst all this nonsense.
 * 7) Per Mario as well as my own comment: the latest and most official information we have is that Toad and the Toad Brigade Captain are not the same character.
 * 8) Per MarioYoshi2.
 * 9) Per Mario.
 * 10) Per Mario. I never believed they were the same due to lack of evidence.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Toad Brigade Captain =/= The Toad, never has, never will, not enough evidence, one trading card does not a canon make, I'm afraid. He always felt like a unique Toad separate from the generic main Toad anyway. Aside from that, it's clear that the Toad Bridage Captain is Captain Toad.

Do nothing about them

 * 1) Per the proposal previously per'd.
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per all.

Comments
So.... here's a visual help for this.

=

but

=

and

=

so

= ?

So Toad, the character, is playable in two places at the same time in Super Mario 3D World!!!! :O 14:39, 6 January 2014 (EST)

@SeanWheeler: Maybe Toad changed his vest and Mushroom Cap.

Is the mushroom cap a hat or part of Toad's head? SeanWheeler (talk) 15:00, 7 January 2014 (EST)
 * I think Magikrazy is over-analyzing it a bit too much. 15:01, 7 January 2014 (EST)

I have found a new evidence that Captain Toad and Toad Brigade Captain are the same person near the end of Iwata Asks Koizumi reads '''Koizumi: That's right. We've made use of the technology cultivated through Mario Galaxy, and characters like Rosalina and Captain Toad, who came about through those games play a new role. Super Mario 3D World is the form we chose to have a greater number of people enjoy that, so I think this is the present culmination of 3D Super Mario games'''. the part in italics confirms that the Captain Toad and Toad Brigade Captain are the same character and also confirms that Toad Brigade Captain is a different character and is not the real Toad. and he says: "characters like Rosalina and Captain Toad, who came about through Those games" in that part confirms that this character originated in Super Mario Galaxy and we all know Toad (true) did not originate in that game.


 * ^ That one paragraph is a lot more logical than all the nonsense spam here.


 * 21:06, 7 January 2014 (EST)


 * Eh... this paragraph backs up my point further so. Don't call the essay spam, but a stratospheric brick wall of text that ultimately leads to nowhere. 21:09, 7 January 2014 (EST)

@YoshiKong:I was trying to make sense in the least words possible. :'( 21:18, 7 January 2014 (EST)


 * @Lefty: A picture is worth 1000 words, and I wasn't prepared to comprehend 6079 words in your vote. MarioYoshi2 only had 159.


 * 21:22, 7 January 2014 (EST)


 * And my 8,010 words in my comments is somehow tolerable? :( 21:25, 7 January 2014 (EST)


 * I think so. It depends how much free time people have to properly go over it.


 * 21:28, 7 January 2014 (EST)
 * Which is probably not enough. People NEVER have free time. 21:42, 7 January 2014 (EST)

The only source for the Toad Brigade Captain being Toad is the SMG trading cards, which weren't released worldwide as far as I know, and may very well have stated the Toad Brigade Captain is Toad simply because there is artwork for Toad but not for any of the brigde members. Speculation aside, let's take a look at a more important source, information coming straight from Nintendo. The New Super Mario Bros. Wii and New Super Mario Bros. U character is officially referred to as Blue Toad. The Super Mario 3D World character is officially referred to as Toad. Captain Toad and the Toad Brigade Captain are the same character, as we know from the Iwata Asks. I think this is clear enough: as of now, Toad and the Toad Brigade Captain are separate characters, even if the most official source we had said otherwise before. Koopalmier (talk) 21:36, 7 January 2014 (EST)
 * If it's true that the only source for Captain Toad being The Toad is one trading card, that's clearly not enough evidence, at all. He can be a generic Toad without being THE Toad, and a trading card is not exactly word of god by any stretch of the imagination. Fizzle (talk) 12:28, 18 January 2014 (EST)

Who says Toad, SM3DW Blue Toad, and Captain Toad can't all be seperate characters?
 * SM3DW Toad is sort of heavily implied to be THE Toad (from SMB2 at least), however you're right, it's perfectly possible he's just Blue Toad from NSMB as well. Captain Toad is definitely his own thing, though.

Further confirmation...
The notes included in the Super Mario 3D World soundtrack released on Europe's Club Nintendo (and presumably on the original Japanese release too) confirm without question that Captain Toad is the same captain from Super Mario Galaxy. As if it wasn't already obvious, of course. But thought this was worth mentioning. Fizzle (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2014 (EDT)

Captain Toad = Toad?
Isn't Captain Toad just the character named Toad? They're both red and share the same characteristics. The Prima guide says they are the same, too. No game featuring Toad has Captain Toad in it (or vice versa), so I'm pretty sure Nintendo meant for them to be the same character. Andyni (talk) 9:00, 11 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Not this again.... 20:57, 11 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Nope.
 * Okay, we have information from official bios and developer words that the playable Toad in 3D World is Toad. That leaves Captain Toad to be his own character.
 * "Hayashida: Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called 'Captain Toad's Adventure,' in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes 'ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-'."
 * Developers' words take priority over Prima guide, so we're going with that. 21:11, 11 June 2014 (EDT)
 * That would mean Toad changed his mushroom cap's color, though. (talk) 1:54, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

How does that quote from Hayashida indicate that Captain Toad is not the same character as Toad? The developers have indicated numerous times that they consider all Toads to be the "character" of Toad. I think this wiki is just giving a very strict interpretation to some very vague and inconsistent statements. Buddy Christ (talk)
 * It implies that Captain Toad is his own identity, which makes Captain Toad Captain Toad. Otherwise, you'd be making more assumptions than what's established here, which I'd rather not do. 23:20, 15 September 2014 (EDT)

They see Captain Toad as a new "character" in that he has a new name and design, just as how they see all Toads as the same "character" as long as they have the same name and design. It's the same as how Nintendo labels Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario as separate "characters" even though they are the same individuals as regular Peach and Mario. The developers at Nintendo obviously aren't using the term "character" as a synonym for "individual person". Buddy Christ (talk)
 * The way you define "character" actually depends on the context, and I don't think your conclusion that "all Toads are the same 'character' as long as they have the same name and design is correct. "Character" in Mario Kart 8 context describes a separate slot in the roster (e.g. 36 playable characters, not 34 playable character plus two reskins of Mario and Peach). We have little information why Nintendo decided to place those two as separate slots, although something as meager as "they have different stats" can be an okay reason. Therefore, Nintendo's decision to place Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach as separate slots in Mario Kart 8 bears no relation to Captain Toad's identity. Captain Toad, still, in my opinion, is his own character. 23:40, 15 September 2014 (EDT)

But look at this quote:

'''Koizumi:Talking about cuteness reminded me of how Toad used to look pretty plain, but because he gets cat ears this time his looks cuter overall. That and with how he can quickly dash around, I think he turned into an incredibly appealing character.'''

'''Iwata: Yeah. It may be rude to his fans to say it like this, but Toad is a surprisingly popular character.'''

'''Koizumi: Right. There's even gameplay this time that features Toad.'''

Hayashida: Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".

They refer to both blue Toad and Captain Toad as the "character" of Toad interchangeably, insofar as they are both Toad. They are obviously using character in the "design" sense of the word, rather than in the "individual person" sense. Captain Toad and blue Toad are different "characters" insofar as their names and design differ, but they are the same "character" insofar as their names and design are the same. The use of "character" in this interview has absolutely nothing to do with which Toad is which specific individual. Buddy Christ (talk)


 * Yeah, I'm expecting that point to get brought up, especially Koizumi's second line. I think the developers are using "Toad" loosely, as a shorthand form of "the Toad species". That's based on my interpretation anyway. As an example, though, I can say the same thing for my argument for Toad for Smash Bros.: "he has appeared playable a lot of times recently", even though I'd rather be saying "A Toad character has been playable a lot of times recently" to avoid smartass comments like "That's not Toad himself". For the former statement, I think the same applies here. 00:00, 16 September 2014 (EDT)

But the point is that they clearly use the word "character" to refer to Toad, and then refer to both blue Toad and Captain Toad as being that "character". Later in the interview they say that Captain Toad was a new "character" introduced in Super Mario Galaxy, and there's no reason to think they are now using "character" in a different sense. They are obviously referring the Captain Toad persona, not the individual red Toad that has now adopted the Captain persona. Just like if you were to ask them what game the "character" of Dr. Mario first appeared in, they would likely say Dr. Mario for the NES. Basically, this wiki's entire stance on Captain Toad is based on a specific interpretation of what was said in a loosely worded interview, even though we have multiple published sources (which I think should be taken as more official than quotes from an interview that were not published or officialized by Nintendo as an entity) that state that Captain Toad is the original Toad. You also have the fact that Captain Toad is red, while the original Toad is also red, while blue Toad is obviously not red.

And to further support my argument, earlier in the interview they refer to the multiple Mario's created by the Double Cherry as "multiple characters".

Miyamoto: Before we made that, we had always had the idea of one player moving multiple Marios, but we never tried it out because we thought it would be too taxing, control-wise, to move multiple characters all at once with one stick.

'''Iwata: That's right. The first time I saw it, I thought, "What? Can you control that yourself?"'''

Miyamoto: You control multiple characters, but they move in unison, so it's like there's one more stuck to you-like in an old shooting game.

Are we to take it that each Mario duplicate created by the Double Cherry is a unique individual with their own hopes, dreams, and aspirations that are squashed when the duplicates inevitably disappear?

And they also refer to the Miis and the Ghost Mii as "characters", even though they are in fact player avatars.

'''Motokura: There's something called a Ghost Mii Character. This time, Mario goes to the Sprixie Kingdom to rescue the Sprixie Princess. There, your Mii character or the Mii characters of other people online show up as Sprixies. When you clear a course, the ghost of the person who cleared it will replay through that gameplay.'''

So it seems pretty clear to me that they are not using "character" in the specific sense this wiki is interpreting it. Buddy Christ (talk)


 * Buddy Christ's making the most sense here. From reading many interviews with Japanese devs over the year, it's obvious to me whatever the original Japanese equivalent is is much looser and refer to recurring elements and generics as much as it does to actual, erm, characters (for another Mario-related example, see that Donkey Kong Jungle Beat interview where Koizumi calls "the banana" a character). Putting so much weight in such a vague statement is kinda silly.


 * Of course, some may argue Captain Toad is still a separate persona worthy of its own page, Mr. L-style, and jesus christ, that's an headache I don't want to get into. --Glowsquid (talk) 09:07, 16 September 2014 (EDT)

I agree that Captain Toad is still worthy of his own page, with a simple unbiased mention (on both the Captain Toad page and the original Toad page) of what sources list him as being the original Toad (The Galaxy bio card and the prima guide). I also think the blue Toad from Super Mario 3D world should get his own page, separate from the main Toad page, in which the homage to the SMB2 sprite is noted (but a homage is all it is, because Toad was NEVER meant to be blue in SMB2, his sprite just appeared that way due to graphical limitations. In all artwork, and in future remakes of SMB2, Toad has ALWAYS been red). Buddy Christ (talk)

And now we even have Toadette as Captain Toad's partner in Treasure Tracker. I think that even further supports the notion that Nintendo regards Captain Toad as the main red Toad from the spinoffs. Buddy Christ (talk)