Talk:Blue Toad (character)

Blue Toad page
I created a Blue Toad page as seeing other species members like the colored yoshis having their own pages. Seeing as he is also a hero in the new game, NSMB Wii I think he should get a page. I will add more later. Pichufan93

Actually you're right. However, it's always a better idea to add all the info at once rather than "do it later".-- 18:03, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Sorry about that, I was kind of busy too. Pichufan93

Good idea! BulletBill 12:54, 7 November 2011 (EST)

Yellow Toad
What about the yellow toad? Will he get a page???

Yes! I will make him one too over the weekend (time)! he needs a good solo pic too :( Edit: I made him one now. Pichufan93

Blue and Yellow Toad's Nicknames
http://www.destructoid.com/nsmb-wii-release-bash-bucken-berry-and-ala-gold--155242.phtml

According to the article, the nicknames of the Blue Toad and the Yellow Toad, given to them by the development team, are Bucken-Berry and Ala-Gold.

...No comment. - Smashgoom202 22:51, 18 November 2009 (EST)
 * The article's author asked an unspecified Nintendo rep (not Miyamoto or another developer) who didn't really know about the tournament, but otherwise knew "a lot of stuff." The rep told about nicknames supposedly used by the Japanese developers and whispered two names that don't sound typical for Kinopio at all. At the end, the author even humourously writes "I don't know if this guy knows what he's talking about or not, but I don't care". I can't take this seriously unless one of the developers confirms it in an interview or something. It could just be a joke made by the rep. --Grandy02 12:45, 8 January 2010 (EST)

"Ala-Gold" is from: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War_The_Third_Gathers:_The_Backstroke_of_the_West so I highly doubt the rep's comment holds any water. Vent (talk) 22:19, 21 February 2013 (EST)

It's technically "Allah Gold" in Backstrokes of the West, but ermph, yeah. Since the Destructoid article doesn't explicitely states it's a joke, how about a disclaimer among the lines of:

"Destructoid's Jonathan Holmes claims that, during a press event, a Nintendo Representative told him the Toad is nicknamed Bucken Berry by the developers, though the veracity of this fact is dubious as the name given to the Yellow Toad ('Ala-Gold') may be a reference to an infamous bootleg of Star Wars: Episode 3."

?

(having read the Backstrokes of the West blog post well over 10 times, I'm ashamed I didn't make the connection myself...) --Glowsquid (talk) 22:55, 21 February 2013 (EST)

"Blue Toad" or "Blue Toads"?
Are we to assume that every instance a blue-color schemed Toad has been featured in a Mario game, it's the same one? That seems like a lot of speculation to me. Redstar 18:06, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Well he shares a lot of similarities and usually in the main story games, there is usually one blue toad and numerous red toads (the spinnoffs usually have large numbers of them). I think it's best to leave him as he is for now seeing as there is a toad species article to relate to. It also seems likely he is the same as he is often seen with the other 4 toads in most of his appearences. User:Pichufan93

Split and Merge Article
It cannot be assumed that just because a particular Toad is wearing blue, that every Toad wearing blue is the same individual. Prior to NSMBW, yblue Toads were simply generic background characters and had no real personality. Even the only personality-trait of the Super Mario Galaxy Blue Toad, of wearing glasses, is not found in this new Toad. This all suggests that they are different Toads that simply share a choice in clothing color. As it stands now, this article covers every appearance of a blue Toad, regardless of whether they may be the same Toad or not. The article also covers blue Toads "as a species", which is far too distinct a subject to cover on the same page; not to mention the different-colored Yoshi aren't considered different species, just variety.

What this proposal hopes to achieve is to split off and merge all relevant information to the correct articles to create more comprehensive and specialized topics. Information to be merged are as follows:


 * Blue Toads in a group, such as in Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy to be merged into the Toad Brigade article.
 * Blue Toads "as a species" to be merged into the Toad (species) article. Assuming different coloration is indicative of separate species is too speculative for this wiki, as well as largely-disproven due to indication of vest and cap as articles of clothing in most media. This standard is also followed for Yoshi (species), wherein differently-colored Yoshi are not considered separate species, but just variety.
 * The blue Toad of NSMBW into a new article, covering only that particular Toad. His singular nature, differing personality, and lack of a group suggests he is a new character. Suggested article names are his development name, "Boppen Berry", or simply "Blue Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)".

Proposer: Deadline: 13 February 2010

'''Please vote here, as both this page and Blue Toad must be dealt with the same way. Since any decision made for one page must be carried out on the other page, only one vote concerning the two articles will be held.'''

Wait, hold on... whose idea was it to have two pages, Blue Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii) and Blue Toad (Toad Brigade)? I saw that there was a proposal about it, but having two pages wasn't part of the proposal. And if you ask me, having two pages really doesn't make sense. First off, the pages are written as if these two toads are certainly two different characters. But there's no reason to assume that they're different; if you ask me, it's more likely that they are the same character, since Nintendo seems to be using him in several games. And second, whether there are two toads or one, there is still no problem with having a single Blue Toad page. The page could discuss blue toads in general, and it could also describe the specific roles that blue toads have in Super Mario Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros. Wii. (And in my opinion, it should also mention that these two toads could be the same.) Would there be any problem with that? There's a single page for Blue Yoshi, even though there's no proof that all blue yoshis are the same character. And everything I said here applies to Yellow Toad, too. 22:00, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Redstar's, and mines. I helped Redstar split Blue Toad, because they are different, and have different names!!! (Blue Toad (NSMBW) is Bucken-Berry, and Blue Toad (Toad Brigade) is just Blue Toad.) It is just too messy. It also said that Toad looked blue in Super Mario Bros. 2, and that it is also a species.
 * Did you read the article that's linked to above? The "Bucken-Berry" thing isn't official, it's just a name that some random representative gave, and he might have been joking. That's no reason to have two separate pages... and it wasn't messy at all when it was one article, I think. And like I said, having a single "Blue Toad" page doesn't necessarily mean that there is only one blue toad. 22:24, 1 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Still, the Blue toad in the Toad Brigade isn't brave, while the Blue toad in NSMBW is. Same thing goes with Yellow Toad. I'm going to email Nintendo to ask them if Bucken-Berry (or Yvan) is the official name for Blue Toad.
 * You can do that, but "Bucken-Berry" isn't official and has never been released by Nintendo. Maybe it isn't really the developers' name at all. And I see your point about the personalities, but like I originally said, there can be a single Blue Toad page that covers more than one toad (that's how it is with Blue Yoshi.) And second of all, they may have different personalities, but that's no reason to assume that they can't be the same character, no matter what. In fact, I think the odds are as likely as not that it's one toad. According to this wiki, the Toad Brigade was promoted to royal guards in the special ending of Super Mario Galaxy - so doesn't it make sense that two of those toads would help to save Princess Peach? 14:35, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Well, Blue Yoshi is about the blue yoshi species, while the original Blue Toad page toad about the color limitations, the Toad Brigade one, the NSMBW one, and Blue Toad as a species. The Blue Toad wears glasses in Super Mario Galaxy, he doesn't wear glasses in New Super Mario Bros Wii (or did he get contacts??). And the IGN called Blue Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii) Yvan.
 * He could have gotten contacts... that cook toad in Thousand Year Door wore contacts, so why couldn't blue toad? And IGN is an unofficial fan site, so a name given by IGN is not official at all, and isn't relevant to this wiki's format. 21:45, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
 * Well, they are still different characters, or how about let's merge Yoshi and Baby Yoshi into Green Yoshi, Super Mario 64 DS into Super Mario 64, Metal Mario (character) into Metal Mario (form), Baby Mario into Mario, and Toadiko into Toadette. The reason why we don't merge them is because merging them are stupid; they are different characters/games/etc..

This appears to be a problem only with you, CrystalYoshi. The proposal passed, and I believe it did with a vast majority. I'd definitely be willing to re-consider the proposal and revise the outcome if more people express a similar thought as yours, though at this point it seems that no one entirely minds.

I think the real problem is that both resulting articles are rather shoddy. I'm sorry, but I've been rather busy with school and personal projects, so I haven't done much more than split and do a little re-writing. Rather than worry yet again whether or not there's sufficient difference to merit the two Blue Toads and Yellow Toads as different characters, I think we should work to re-write and expand each article to a point where they can stand on their own. At that point we can certainly re-consider whether it's worth keeping them split. Redstar 17:23, 4 April 2010 (EDT)

mistake
I found a mistake in the text (such as a barrels). Should I turn it into "such as barrels" or "such as a barrel"?

IGN Confirmation
IGN confirmed their nicknames for Yellow and Blue Toad in an article after the game's release, so it's not supposedly. But I have no idea how exactly to modify the portion of the article, or where the article was, as I saw it in early 2010. Does anyone know what to do in this situation? Geekiness is an end, not a means - Bop1996 21:02, 21 March 2011 (EDT)
 * We settled it in the above discussion and also on Talk:Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. Wii). Their official names are simply Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. We also have a source for that in the article and they are named in the forums.
 * No, I'm referring to where it says, "and 'supposedly' named Yvan by IGN people." IGN released an article in early 2010 confirming that these names were indeed the ones the IGN people used, and explained them. My problem is, I can't find the article to source it for the confirmation, as it's over a year old now. Geekiness is an end, not a means - Bop1996 08:16, 22 March 2011 (EDT)

Super Mario 3D Land Appearance
Well the information for this game has been leaked, and if you look at the introduction video you will notice Mario alongside three Toads. One is a Red Toad (perhaps THE Toad?), and the other two are Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. They both seem to mirror each other in the intro in the panicking scene, and are both seen to be running with Mario on his journey to save Peach with the Red Toad. Could this be an appearance of this Blue Toad himself considering that he is a hero for NSMB Wii and there is only one Blue Toad so far? Pichufan93 16:45, 07 October 2011 (EDT)

I think that it is him. Most Toads always leave everything to Mario, Luigi (including Yoshi), but Yellow Toad, Blue Toad, along with a Red Toad have joined Mario. This is probably a hint that they are the same Toads. As for THE Toad, he already appears in the game.--Prince Ludwig 14:09, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
 * Sorry unless Nintendo says it's this particular Blue Toad we can't put it on the article cause that's speculation

Mario Party 9
It's the same as with 3D Land; what source do we have that states the playable Blue Toad from the New Super Mario Bros. games and the one that hosts the minigame stuff in Mario Party 9 are the same character? And what about Yellow Toad as well?

Toa 95 (talk)

I doubt this one as well. We have no information that they are they are the same. Should we just delete the information or keep it or say that they may not be the same Toad. -User:O O


 * Guys, just leave things the way they were.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2013 (EST)

TPP: The "Blue Toad" in Super Mario 3D World
The game Super Mario 3D World, which is due to be released in the coming days, features a playable character which is considered a Blue Toad. But, there has been much recent discussion throughout the site on whether this Blue Toad is a Blue Toad, or the character Blue Toad. Some points were brought up that as the game included gameplay and character abilities which directly reference Super Mario Bros. 2. In this game, Toad's playable NES sprite was blue, but nevertheless we consider it to be the character Toad. The playable characters seen in Super Mario Bros. 2 include Toad, Peach, Luigi as well as Mario, and this is the same line-up as seen in Super Mario 3D World. So... if we can use SMB2 as a precedent, then why is there a discrepancy? The reason for that is that there was another playable Toad character revealed, known as Captain Toad, who is dressed as the Toad Brigade Captain from the Super Mario Galaxy series. Since this appearance of Toad throughout the Galaxy series was believed to be the character "Toad" himself, then it seemed plausible to also assume that the look-alike which appears in SM3DW is also the character Toad. However, there is currently no official source which backs this claim up. This appearance of the captain is officially known as "Captain Toad", not "Toad Brigade Captain". Even in the Iwata Ask, the similarities between the two were acknowledge, and it was stated by developer Koichi Hayashida, that the idea of Captain Toad was based on the concept from SMG.

Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure,"

The apparel and color is irrelevant when taking into consideration how there is a conflicting official source of the identity of this character. This brings me to my next point. In terms of the "Blue Toad", there are no official sources which refer to it as such. It's simply called "Toad" on the official site, as well as the Iwata Asks. So therefore, why is all the info on the "Blue Toad (character)" page, and all links describing this Toad lead to this page? We need to reach a consensus on this controversial matter, and I feel that this proposal would be the best means to solve that.

Proposer: Deadline: December 4, 2013, 23:59 GMT

Create a Captain Toad article, and move the info at Blue Toad (character) to the main Toad article

 * 1) – I personally feel that this is the most logical option. "Captain Toad" is portrayed in a different way to how it was seen in Super Mario Galaxy and the sequel. With the new title of "Captain Toad", along with his new role in the game, I believe it's worthy of an article.
 * 2) Per proposal. I strongly agree with creating a Captain Toad article. As for Toad, we can just say something about how his appearance in this game is based on his appearance in SMB2, though that acts as an excuse. If there's a source confirming this as the reason for the design change, I'd like to see it.
 * 3) Agreed, as some may know I have always considered this to be Toad, due to the fact that there is no official sources saying Blue Toad.
 * 4) Thank goodness someone actually did this, this whole Blue Toad thing has been bugging me to no end. Per proposal.
 * 5) - Per YoshiKong: seems like the most logical course of action.
 * 6) Per YoshiKong, it does make more sense.
 * 7) Good idea, per all.
 * 8) We should retain some of this information regarding Super Mario 3D World on this page to prevent some disagreements (after all, this Toad is a blue-colored Toad). Otherwise, if this Toad = Toad, then we should heed to this.
 * 9) I always thought of "Blue" Toad as Toad himself, and also there's no official source calling him "Blue Toad". It bugs me Captain Toad is merged with the "Toad" article.
 * 10) Per all
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per YoshiKong.

Create a article
This may be an alternative option, as we have the article Blue Toad (Super Mario Galaxy) for the differentiated Blue Toad in that game.


 * 1) I think this is actually most logical, since all it takes is a new article, and it would have more information.

Comments
There's still a debate going on on whether the Blue Toad is THE Toad or not? I'm not really getting the proposal. DonnyKD (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2013 (EST)
 * Many people think it is Blue Toad despite the official sources saying it's the Toad, so this proposal has probably been designed to address that.
 * I'm 98% sure its Blue Toad since Red Toad is already in the game as an entirely separate character. But, whatever anyway. DonnyKD (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2013 (EST)

The Playable Toad is the Toad Character
I know that a proposal has recently passed to address this but I recently checked the European website for Super Mario 3D World and Toad's bio confirms that the playable Toad is the Toad Character, not Blue Toad. Here is the official profile:

http://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Wii-U/SUPER-MARIO-3D-WORLD-765385.html

"Toad is the fastest of the four friends, so he’s the best bet in situations where speed is essential. Princess Peach’s loyal servant and Mario’s lifelong buddy, Toad is a plucky little fellow who’s tougher than his size implies!"

07:45, 6 December 2013 (EST)


 * So then, who's Captain Toad? The Toad or just some other Toad? Actually, I'd like to hear a case of a Toad switching their cap, because I never seen that happen. DonnyKD (talk) 11:45, 7 December 2013 (EST)
 * Just because you never saw a Toad have their cap switched before doesn't mean that it can't happen. The point is that the blue Toad is The Toad. He has always been referred to as Toad in all sources including in-game and I provided proof with his European bio that confirms him to be Toad. The only reason you seem to disregard this is simply because Toad is wearing blue. No one knows why they made him blue. Maybe the wanted to make a reference to his SMB2 color sprite or maybe they wanted to give him a much more distinct color from the others, etc. We don't know it's all speculation, but the playable Toad is indeed The Toad.

As for Captain Toad, ever considered that he is a completely different character? They officially call him Captain Toad and as YoshiKong pointed it in his proposal, the Iwata Asks said that the idea of Captain Toad was based on the concept of SMG. He also appears a bit more different from the Toad Brigade Captain, given that he wears an explorers outfit and he carries a large bag on his back. Plus no other sources ever called this Toad as The Toad. Going by this, the playable Toad is The Toad while Captain Toad is a completely different character. The proposal is right from the way this is being handled. 08:39, 8 December 2013 (EST)

Sorry, but I have to question how this link proves SM3DW Toad is The Toad, and not Blue Toad from NSMB games. Canon in Mario games is not most tightly knitted, and it may change depending on how the developers see it (like they did with the Koopalings). Actually, does that description even point it out to be The Toad? I certainly don't see it. Toad species is already known to be loyal to Peach with many Not-The Toads being her servants. As for "Mario’s lifelong buddy", we know from the NSMB games that Blue and Yellow Toads are at least good friends with Mario Bros.. Therefore, that official text could be linked to both The Toad and Blue Toad, and Yellow Toad if he was a solo playable Toad. Which, by the way, would also expand to the lone playable Toad to be called just Toad.

As for Captain Toad, I find it a stretch that Toad Brigade Captain (considered to be The Toad himself,) and Captain Toad would be a different person based on their appearance. The quote from Iwata Asks provided above actually proves the opposite:

Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".

You know that theme. It's even referred to as Captain Toad's theme. Make whatever you want out of that. SmokedChili 19:33, 29 December 2013 (EST)

in the Spanish versions of Super Mario 3D World: the "Captain Toad" is named as "Jefe de Cuadrilla Toad" which in English means "Toad Brigade Captain" this indicates that Captain Toad is actually the same Toad as was in Super Mario Galaxy. so I think the Toad Brigade Captain is a different character and is not true Toad as the article says.

@SmokedChili: Descriptions such "Peach's loyal servant" has always been used for bios of the The Toad character and guess what? They use the same description again on a character named TOAD. Blue Toad and Yellow Toad have never gotten descriptions like this and "Mario's Lifelong Buddy" only works on Toad because he has been around since the beginning. Attemtping to associate this description with Blue Toad is grasping at straws. All the evidence points to this Toad being the Toad character, but some of you people choose to ignore it just because he wears a blue cap. I already explained above that we don't know why they made his cap blue, but all the sources favor this character to be Toad. In fact, no one can rule out the possibility that Toads can change their clothing to another color as Toad himself has done a few times. Plus official NSMBW and NSMBU websites name the blue Toad as BLUE TOAD. The official website of SM3DW as well as in-game call this one Toad. Why not just call him Blue Toad in this game if it's not the Toad character? Why does Blue Toad use Yellow Toad's fire flower costume when he has his own costume?

You bring a strong point with Captain Toad, however, all sources have ever called this Toad as Captain Toad where as the playable one has been called Toad. In fact, the Iwata asks calls the playable Toad as Toad, like all other sources:

"Talking about cuteness reminded me of how Toad used to look pretty plain, but because he gets cat ears this time his looks cuter overall. That and with how he can quickly dash around, I think he turned into an incredibly appealing character." 19:43, 1 January 2014 (EST)
 * @Smasher345: So if a Toad is called Toad, he is The Toad? Or rather, if a Toad is referred to with The Toad's name, he is The Toad? Which leads to, Toads called Toad are collectively The Toad as long as he has other titles. So I'll look at this from the point: The use of the name of The Toad can be applied to Toads with other names.
 * I've got two points for this. First is from the section of the Iwata Asks we have quoted many times already. There we have this quote by Koizumi: "There's even gameplay this time that features Toad." He's talking about Captain Toad's levels, and this line comes directly after talking about SM3DW Toad. Before that, Iwata stated this: "It may be rude to his fans to say it like this, but Toad is a surprisingly popular character." The point is, both are referred to as Toad. We have no true definiton of which one is The Toad here.
 * Second point comes from here, the official NSMBU site. The story section states that the Mario Bros., Toad and Peach are enjoying a dinner until Bowser and Koopalings attack with their airships. The problem is that The Toad is not there, it's actually Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. Which means that in addition to their usual names, either one can be called The Toad because they are called Toad, trademark included. So which one is it? We may never know. But it again makes the status of The Toad very ambiguous.
 * Then there's this part of the "no other name" issue. We have a source that at least implies The Toad being Toad Brigade Captain, but we also have a source linking the latter to Captain Toad. However, Captain Toad can't be either of them because there are official sources only calling him Captain Toad and because SM3DW Toad is already considered to be The Toad by this same logic. Furthermore, we have games such as Mario Superstar Baseball and its sequel where a Red Toad is given the usual Toad description, and this apparently connects him to The Toad. On the other hand, both Blue and Yellow Toads are given similar text in their NSMBW bio, and neither is The Toad nor called Toad (expect that one time), but this also means they can't be in any other games as a lone playable Toad because The Toad already has all the signs of him filling that role. By this logic, it is okay on this wiki to merge generic or invidual Toads with The Toad as long as the name and profile match, efficiently giving him a name and appearance change in some cases, but the same can't be done for other invidual Toads, because the The Toad's name and profile can only be applied to The Toad, even if a Toad in question looks more like the other invidual Toads than The Toad. Granted, I have brought up evidence that seems to have gone unnoticed with these discussions, but now there's no reason to ignore it either. To further emphasize my point, check the "Game World" section of the European SM3DW site you linked. The Toad House description calls the Toad living there Toad. Does that make him The Toad? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 08.25, 2 January 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: This is how at has always been when it comes to knowing who The Toad is. If a Toad is called Toad, chances are it's most likely Toad, as that is his name. The playable Toad in 3d World is the only one to always be called Toad, all the others as you said, are only used in one instance. They will occasionally use "Toad" in the singular sense to refer to others since that is the species that they are. They commonly do this with generic enemies such as a Koopa Troopa in the spin-offs for their profiles. With all this evidence you are providing, you are basically trying to prove that there may not be a Toad character, which is wrong as there is one. According to your logic, the Toad that is playable in many spin-offs, such as Mario Kart and Mario Party, is a generic Toad, just because that Toad called Toad and it can be used for any Toad.. Despite there being an ambiguity with the way the term "Toad" is used, we use common sense to know which one is The Toad and which ones are different Toads.
 * Your point on the NSMBU website is moot because it's obvious that those two Toads are different characters, especially when they've been officially named Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The use of "Toad" there is a catch-all term for both Toads, even if it has the trademark. The Super Mario Galaxy trading card actually further proves my point that the description of being "Peach's loyal servant" is only ever used on Toad. Show me some other evidence that a description like that was used for another Toad. The red Toad in the baseball games is the Toad according to his Card Bio. If you want to try to argue that the Toad playable in many spin-offs is just a generic Toad, be my guest, but I highly doubt it would be changed here as the descriptions seem to imply is Toad.
 * Also your point on the term Toad being used for only The Toad, that is correct because that is his name. If the playable Toad is Blue Toad, then there is no reason to just change Blue Toad's name to Toad if "Blue Toad" is already his official name. On top of that, if this was Blue Toad, as you try to prove, then why does he use Yellow Toad's fire costume as opposed to his own? Furthermore, the ability to run fast has commonly only been associated with Toad just as how the ability to make enemies larger or change the environment has only been associated with Kamek.
 * Another point I want to make is that you seemingly associate the playable Toad with Blue Toad just because of his appearance. You are aware that there are other Blue Toads that look alike right? Because if thats the case, then the Blue Toad in Super Mario Sunshine and the one in Super Mario Galaxy with the glasses is the Blue Toad character and there is no evidence to suggest that. As I said before, the evidence suggests that the playable Toad is indeed the Toad character. So that leaves one question, why did they make him blue in this game? The answer is we don't know, but being blue doesn't automatically make this Toad as the Blue Toad character. I pointed out before that Toad himself has changed his clothing before such as in Super Mario 3D Land and the baseball games in which he wears red. It is likely that the cap Toads where can be changed as Super Mario Strikers seems to imply it is an accessory that they wear and the Paper Mario series show some hair sticking out underneath their caps. It's also possible they wanted to reference his SMB2 sprite in which he was blue due to graphic limitations, further supported by the many SMB2 references. I firmly believe the reason they made him Blue is to give him a more distinct color from the rest of the playable characters, especially when it comes to power-ups. This would make it easier for players to tell apart who is who between Mario and Toad. Of course it's speculation so I can't mention that in the article but I think this is the likely scenario. 18:22, 2 January 2014 (EST)

@Smasher345: If it's so easy to tell which one of the race of the generic characters is The generic character, who is also this generic character, that generic character, generic character's friend, generic character jr., poor generic character from streets and the special generic character by using common sense, then which one of those Kameks in Super Mario 3D World is The Kamek? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 19.06, 2 January 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: Did you not see me say how the term Toad is used? When I said common sense using the term, that more often than not means it will be supported with a description which is how we can tell if it's Toad or not. I said nothing about telling which Toad apart by appearance (Which is actually what you are doing with Blue Toad). Obviously Kamek doesn't appear in SM3DW. All of those are generic Magikoopas. Don't think I wouldn't know that you tried to make it seem that Kamek would appear in the game just because they are called Kameks in Europe. Magikoopas are called Kameks in Japan so this is the reason for the use of the term Kamek. You also didn't even address my other points where as I addressed yours. Also, going by what your trying to do, I'm going to ask, are you trying to say that there is no Toad character? 19:23, 2 January 2014 (EST)

@Smasher345: I was never against The Toad being his own character, but rather the generalization of other Toads being The Toad. And here's something worth adressing about Kamek. Since we both know about there being only Magikoopas, who are currently known as Kameks in PAL version, in SM3DW, this means the same could as well apply to earlier games. Like Mario Party 9, where we have Kamek, a.k.a. Magikoopa in America, as a playable. This answers the certain question about him, and it's not "Why is Kamek a generic Magikoopa in NA version?" it is "Why is a generic Magikooopa Kamek in PAL version?" The answer is that it's not The Kamek, but a generic Kamek, a Magikoopa.
 * This is the point I'm trying to drive home here. If Kamek as his own character can't anymore be proven to be The Kamek with just his name and profile, the same goes for The Toad. I mean, how does this wiki know that Toad who got robbed by Nabbit in Layer-Cake Desert in NSMBU is The Toad, who looks identical to those other Toads living in their own houses or giving Mario free items when fireworks are triggered? The name Toad can refer to The Toad, other invidual Toads (as seen on Game World part of European SM3DW site) or Toad species, it's a name with multiple meanings. Its meaning, and the meaning of those descriptions, are ultimately about the intented context. You wanted me to give evidence for The Toad's description used on other Toads? Here's what's said about Blue and Yellow Toads on official European NSMBW website: "As loyal servants to the Mushroom Kingdom throne, there's no way the Toads are about to sit back and watch Bowser and Co. bring their unsavoury schemes to fruition. Toads have aided Mario on plenty of adventures in the past, but this time around they're not just letting Mario know the princess is in another castle - they're coming along for the ride!" This matches with The Toad's description quite well. Peach's loyal servants, helpful friends for Mario, the context, it's all there.
 * As for Blue Toad having no need to be called Toad because he is already called Blue Toad, that's because he had a buddy, who is known as Yellow Toad. SM3DW Toad is the only playable Toad of the bunch. That's two Toads in these games vs. one Toad in that game. It would only naturally make sense since it's just one Toad and the only Toad, without the need of differiating him from the other Toads.
 * And then this whole Captain Toad issue. I have given proof that connects him to Toad Brigade Captain, who is also The Toad, of which we also have proof. Yet he can't be either, because we have a playable Toad just called Toad in SM3DW. But really, that's all the proof for that? That and the Toad profile I have proved to be interchangable, generic for any Toad? That's direct statements vs. indeterminable proof. Which means Captain Toad is more likely to be The Toad, which overrides The Toad being SM3DW Toad, who is either Blue Toad or Toad of his own. Oh, and for some implications, early SM3DW footage showed Captain Toad with The Toad's icon before it was changed to the current. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 06.40, 2 January 2014 (EST)


 * But how about the "Mario's lifelong buddy" thing on the official website?


 * 06:46, 3 January 2014 (EST)

@YoshiKong:As I said, intended context. Like how the introduction text of Toad Houses in SM3DW have different words in NTSC and PAL versions, but mean essentially the same. Actually, let's look at this from gameplay perspective. In some games, mostly New Super Mario Bros. games and Super Mario 3D Land, Mario is accompanied by Toads in the intro. When Bowser's plans are realized, Mario springs into action, and so do the Toads. In the latter, these Toads are found everywhere providing Mario with items. How friendly of them, I say. Anyway, in-game actions say that Toads are very devoted friends to both Mario Bros. and Princess Peach, and will help them anyway they can, but get scared easily. Every Toad in Super Mario games is like this, including Toad in Super Mario Galaxy games as Toad Brigade Captain.

Bottom line is, Mario is a dear friend to Toads, he's there for them, and they're there for him, together helping each other to foil whatever Bowser's up to. That's why generic Toads are so easy to associate with traits that are thought to be exclusive to The Toad on this wiki. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 10.47, 2 January 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: I can see what you are saying. I'll start with the point of Kamek. I actually agree that the playable Magikoopa in Mario Party 9 is just a generic Magikoopa due to the evidence of the species being called Kamek in Europe. Unfortunately, the people in this wiki are convinced that the character is Kamek. I actually tried to argue in Kamek's talk page that the Magikoopa boss faced in Super Princess Peach's page isn't Kamek. Despite the fact that that the name of the boss is Giant Kamek, there was evidence that it wasn't Kamek such as the fact that this boss has a different Japanese name, looks different, and the glossary even says "A Kamek made huge by magic." Despite claiming all this, people just ignored it and didn't even bother arguing against the point at all, therefore leaving the info the same. Now I can see why you are arguing this and it does indeed apply to Toad as well. The term Toad does indeed cause too much of an ambiguity, and either side could potentially be right. The problem is that the wiki is convinced that most of the descriptions of a singular Toad is assumed to be The Toad, especially if a similar description is used for another singular Toad. Unless stated by Nintendo otherwise, the wiki is going to leave it like this to avoid having to rewrite all of the article of the Toad species. Doing this potentially means that there is no Toad character, since your argument pretty much means that the playable Toad in many spin-offs could very well just be a generic Toad.
 * In addition, despite you claiming that Captain Toad is most likely the Toad character with the statement that you provided, your argument that the term "Toad" can be used for any individual Toad can also be used against Captain Toad being The Toad. No one would have known that the Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad if it weren't for the SMG trading card. However, the people are convinced that the description of the card is the reason why the Toad Brigade Captain is the Toad. If the description of the card is no different from the other descriptions that can be used on any individual Toad, then how do we know that the Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad when it could also just be another Toad according to what you are arguing? This is the kind of ambiguity people are trying to avoid and that is why they associate similar descriptions to The Toad.
 * I can also bring up the fact that Toad has his own Japanese name, where he is called キノピオ (meaning Kinopio). The Toad species' Japanese name is Kinoko. People used Toad's Japanese name to figure out who is The Toad. A conflict, however, came up when they used Toad's Japanese name for both Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The Japanese trailer of SM3DW and pretty much in-game call the playable Toad as キノピオ or Kinopio, which is The Toad's Japanese name. The difference, however, is that Blue Toad and Yellow Toad's Japanese names include the color in addition to Toad's Japanese name. Blue Toad is called Ao Kinopio while Yellow Toad is called Kīro Kinopio. Going by this, one can easily conclude that the playable Toad is most certainly The Toad and that the names of the two other Toads is in fact, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. The use of Kinopio likely means that the name of a Toad has the word "Toad" as part of their name. 15:16, 3 January 2014 (EST)

@Smasher345: For a Toad to be The Toad, that's where I use a combination of set physical appearance, in-game portrayal and written evidence, taking one or another first and then expanding using the others. It may not be different from other users here, sure, but I am stricter in this sense. To give you a clear picture, I consider the red-spotted, blue-vested Toads to be the "control group" of Toad species, as that used to be their only design. The occurence of the control group in different games vary from just one such Toad (SM3DL and some spin-offs) to them inhabitating every single area (NSMB games). Among this control group, there is The Toad, who will be easy enough to recognize if he's the only control group Toad. That's where I use the rest of the ways to see if they expand his appearance or role, and in case of SMG, he becomes Toad Brigade Captain.
 * Speaking of him, as you said, how would I indeed know if he is The Toad based on my own arguments? Maybe he really isn't, because The Toad is still a generic Toad, which all have barely their own definitions, if any. Toad Brigade Captain, on the other hand, stands out well enough because he is defined clearly as the captain of his brigade. Frankly, even with acknowlegded evidence, I don't believe Toad Brigade Captain is The Toad as defined here, but I do believe he is Captain Toad by my personal opinion and evidence that points to it.
 * But really, even if people here try to prevent ambiguity by making other Toads The Toad, that would be from certain viewpoint manipulating evidence to preserve a status quo, which in this case is "All Toads called by the name of Toad are The Toad, who we define as his own character". I've been thinking about it, and based on these conversations I have come to a conclusion that the article Toad (character) and that which defines it is outdated. I'd prefer to change it into Toad (general), with the definiton of "This page contains all major Toads who go simply by the name Toad and their extensions based on official material". It would give freedom to have SM3DW Toad there, it would give a chance to keep Toad Brigade Captain there based on that trading card, it could also give a chance to move Captain Toad to that article, or move Toad Brigade Captain to Captain Toad's article. Really, the only big change would be article definition change, which wouldn't change the article itself. Because, you know, a bunch of Toads generally defined as The Toad would still be a bunch of Toads, just without that definition which feels like "forced ascertainty" to me.
 * Even if that won't be accepted, my point about Captain Toad being The Toad via their connection to Toad Brigade Captain still stands by this wiki's definition of The Toad. The problem is just SM3DW Toad, whose name and profile are lesser evidence to me compared to Toad Brigade Captain's theme being called Captain Toad's theme by the developers. Long story short, it's a loophole in common sense.
 * And about those Japanese names... I know about Toad's, and I think I knew what the Toad species' was. So your right about that, but I remember also seeing very recently someone saying on another talk page they were called just "Kinopios" in developers' notes. I'll see what I can discover about this around the net. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 08.30, 5 January 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: I suppose that could work for all Toads if the article were to be created but I doubt the wiki would accept it. You are right about the statement pretty much confirming that Captain Toad is the Toad Brigade Captain. However, do know that people associate the Toad Brigade Captain with Toad because of his description, you can even see how people argued about it in Toad's talk page. The Toad Brigade Captain's in-game portrayal can't really be used to connect to The Toad as that is the first time a Toad has been shown with the role of a captain. The appearance wouldn't have helped neither as many Toads can appear with the red color as well. This is why they used the description which matches descriptions used on the past for The Toad. Currently, the playable Toad in SM3DW has a bio that also matches this description and "Mario's lifelong buddy" is just too much of a strong description to be used on just any ordinary Toad except The Toad, who has appeared since the very first Super Mario Bros. game. This Toad also has The Toad's known ability to run fast and is called Kinopio in Japan. I'm currently checking to see about the use of Kinopio on the NSMB Toads as well, to see if it is true that developers used Kinopio on those Toads. I won't deny the possibility of this Toad to be Blue Toad, but this wiki is known to just make assumptions for Blue Toad. Ever since Blue Toad has been introduced, the wiki has all of a sudden started assuming that every single Blue Toad that makes an appearance is automatically considered the Blue Toad character when there is no evidence to prove otherwise. The same is done with Yellow Toad. They have already done this for both Mario Party 9 and Mario Party Island Tour, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do it again for another game. However, it certaintly does create a conflict of which Toad is The Toad, the playable one or Captain Toad. The developers statement would imply that Captain Toad is indeed The Toad, especially when the Toad Brigade Captain is considered The Toad on this wiki. On the other hand, the playable Toad can also be The Toad due to his bio description, constantly being called Toad, having the fast running ability, and the use of Kinopio in Japan. Making one the Toad, contradicts the other.
 * On a side note, I want to mention that if the developers really wanted to establish the Blue Toad character and if it is him in SM3DW, then they would have indeed used his fire color costume. You did say that the use of "Toad" and Yellow Toad's fire costume is used on Blue Toad because he is the only one playable out of the Two Toads from the NSMB games and that pretty much wouldn't have made a difference. But by your logic, Luigi should have just used Mario's fire costume color in New Super Luigi U, since that was Luigi's original fire costume and Mario doesn't make an appearance at all, so it wouldn't have made a difference either. That can possibly mean that this playable Toad could just be a different Toad or it could also be The Toad based on a couple of evidence. Plus, as The Toad is the most iconic and most established of all Toads, it wouldn't be surprising if they decided to use him to represent all Toads, which would explain the use of Blue Toad's color and Yellow Toad's fire costume.
 * Honestly, none of us wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't Nintendo making one individual of a generic species have the same name as his/her species and giving them the same appearance as their species with no unique visual characteristics. They have already done this with Toad, Yoshi, Birdo, Boom Boom, and Kamek. And on top of that, they cause even more ambiguity by just simply slapping the term of the species on some individuals as if that is what their name is instead of using the plural form or saying things like "A Toad" or This Toad." I personally believe this was a bad decision on the developers part and unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it would be changing anytime soon. 13:22, 6 January 2014 (EST)

jesus christ. --Glowsquid (talk) 14:22, 6 January 2014 (EST)

Blue Toad = Red Toad?
Are you guys really going with the idea that the blue-spotted Toad in SM3DW is the same character as the red-spotted Toad in previous games (and for the recond, Toad in SMB2 has always had red spots canonically)? Despite the fact that the red-spotted Captain Toad appears at the end of SM3DW with what is obviously the Toad Brigade sans blue Toad (because blue Toad is already with Mario)? And despite the Super Mario Galaxy collector card bio of Toad that states that he is the Toad Brigade captain (unlike that European website bio of blue Toad which just states that blue Toad is Peach's loyal servant and Mario's lifelong friend, which could easily apply to multiple Toads)? And despite the picture of the Toad Brigade in Mario Galaxy that shows Captain Toad wearing a blue vest? And despite the fact that we have no reason to believe that the mushroom caps are not physically part of the Toads' head's, and thus not changeable?

The fact that the blue Toad in SM3D World is called "Toad" instead of "Blue Toad" just means that his name is also Toad. The Toads' colors have never been stated to be a part of their names. Buddy Christ (talk)


 * This has already been discussed extensively above, but I personally am not fully satisfied, either. However, I will state that Toad's cap can possibly be removed as if it were a hat (though I personally always saw it as part of his head, given it is homologous with the heads of real-life mushrooms and because Toadette's pigtails come from her own "cap". It'd be weird if she could just take it off). In addition, whenever the Toad from Super Mario 3D World is brought up, he is always simply referred to as "Toad" and official descriptions of the character suggest it is the Toad, not the Blue Toad from the New Super Mario Bros. series. (Here's an example of what I'm referring too: Nintendo UK, Super Mario 3D World.) Others have argued that the reason why Toad has blue spots in 3D World is in homage to Super Mario Bros. 2: like 3D World, the title featured Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad as playable characters, and in this title, Toad's sprite was blue, not red. While I agree that is a sound and probable explanation, I'm still a bit skeptical because Nintendo never clarified this at all (probably because Mario canon is not their priority when developing their games).
 * Here's what I personally think is true: the playable Toad in Super Mario 3D World was originally the Blue Toad from NSMB, but changes during the game's development cycle changed how the developers interpreted the blue-spotted Toad as the Toad. My reasons for believing this are as followed:
 * 1. Peach was originally not going to be a playable character in Super Mario 3D World (reference:Polygon interview with Yoshiaki Koizumi]. It was only decided later on in development. This is an interesting piece of trivia: knowing how Nintendo prioritize gameplay innovations first-and-formost - and knowing that 3D World's biggest draw was being a multiplayer 3D Mario game, it was likely designed to be a 4-player game right from the start. But if Peach was not playable, who was the fourth playable character originally going to be?
 * 2. Based on the previous observation, I feel like the jump from the single-player 3D Land to 3D World is very similar to how New Super Mario Bros. Wii - another 4-player platformer - succeeded from the original single-player New Super Mario Bros. on DS. NSMBW was the game that introduced Blue Toad and Yellow Toad as playable characters alongside Mario and Luigi for 4-player co-op.
 * 3. From the previous two observations, I think Super Mario 3D World started development with Mario, Luigi, Blue Toad, and Yellow Toad as playable characters. Peach was a later addition that resulted in Yellow Toad being scrapped. Blue Toad remained, but was simply dubbed "Toad" because specifying that he is "blue" is unnecessary: he is the ONLY playable Toad. This decision likely made them realize the similarities between SMB2 and their game, so they decided to adopt Blue Toad as the Toad instead. I'm also guessing that it was around this time that Captain Toad began to take on his own identity. I think the character as he appears in the Galaxy games was supposed to be the Toad, but in 3D World it was conceptually odd to have the same character both in regular levels and through this special Captain Toad levels, in addition to looking distinct from one another.
 * To answer your original question, I do think the Toad in 3D World was originally Blue Toad, but in execution is the original Toad.Nintendo101 (talk) 23:09, 19 June 2017 (EDT)

Mario Party Toads
This was raised several sections up: is there any confirmation that the Blue Toad and Yellow Toad hosts in the Mario Party series are the same ones from the NSMB series? Do they actually say "Hi I'm Blue/Yellow Toad" in-game or anything? 19:58, 2 December 2018 (EST)
 * Yeah, these always seemed iffy to me, like the same thing as saying "all playable Koopa Troopas are the same Koopa Troopa", for example. -- 20:00, 2 December 2018 (EST)

Remove/split information about the Mario Party series from Blue and Yellow Toad
Despite being brought up twice before, no one has been able to produce any proof that Blue Toad and Yellow Toad from the NSMB games are the same ones that appear in the Mario Party series; we also have no proof that the Blue and Yellow Toads within the Mario Party series are even the same character in each game. Therefore, it is nothing but speculation and the same situation as "this character must be Toad/Yoshi/Kamek/etc." which we've been trying to avoid. I have two suggestions for what to do with this:
 * Remove the information entirely. I personally prefer this solution, as like I said it's speculation that it's the same Toad every time. I also don't necessarily feel that they have an important enough role to have their own pages.
 * Split the information off onto their own pages. This would provide somewhere for the information to go, and would be consistent with Green Toad (Mario Party 9).

Also, if this proposal passes, the pages could be moved to the identifier (New Super Mario Bros. series), or something similar, which is a much better identifier than just (character), as other Toads named Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are obviously characters as well.

Proposer: Deadline: July 15, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Remove the information entirely

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) I always thought this setup was weird. Information on the MP Toads can just go on the Toad (species) article; it's not like they're more important than, for instance, the colored Toads from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon.

Split the information off onto their own pages

 * 1) My second choice.
 * 2) Per proposal. This seems to be the most plausible option.

Do nothing

 * 1) Second option, in case the second option does not pass.

Comments
My view is to merge them into Toad (Playable).--Tyughvbn (talk) 02:19, July 2, 2019 (EDT)


 * But the Mario Party Toads mentioned in the proposal aren't playable. 02:30, July 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think it's more appropriate to distinguish importance by playability, and if they're not playable, it doesn't seem to require separate pages, or you can create another Toad (host) page. Anyway, if can't prove that they are the same character, it should be named according to the nature of their work.--Tyughvbn (talk) 02:55, July 2, 2019 (EDT)