MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Split Spiny Fish from Spiny Cheep Cheep (Discuss) Deadline: May 2, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Create a template for proposal outcomes
The current coding for the proposal outcome is repetitive and cumbersome to remember every single time we need to archive a proposal, which has resulted in inconsistent headers (we first used Times New Roman, then switched to Comic Sans, and we're allowed to do that because one, there's virtually no guideline on this, and two, the coding is a crap to remember). So, exactly why isn't the outcomes in a template again? Repetitive coding is essentially template fodder, and there's no reason why we need to remember and duplicate difficult to remember coding when we can simply remember a template and use switchers to depend on the outcomes of a proposal. has created various templates in his sandbox pages to demonstrate how we can use the template to make archiving proposals easier.


 * A test on how the new template will look like.
 * Draft page for the template

In the long term, I believe this will greatly benefit users who want to archive older proposals and will make remembering the exact coding less of a hassle.

Also, this will eliminate the egregious misplacement of the notorious and extremely unprofessional Comic Sans font, which will be replaced by Verdana. Comic Sans is not a web-safe font, and any browser who doesn't have it installed will fallback to Arial and therefore look incredibly inconsistent with different browsers, whereas, Verdana is a web-safe standard font that should be used for more professional headers, especially those that notify readers the outcomes of important wiki matters. If past "minor" problems such as the misuse of subspecies and beta elements can be addressed, I don't see why it's particularly difficult to address what is essentially a design problem, which is more important to others than others, like terminology. The little things matter too.

Update: Both options have been merged into one, increasing flexibility of the template.

Proposer:, with great help from Deadline: April 26, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Implement

 * 1) - Why shouldn't we make things easier whenever we can?
 * 2) I agreed before, I'll agree now! A template is better to avoid errors and inconsistencies!
 * 3) - Per proposal. Much better than what it is currently used.
 * 4) Per all, I always found it annoying to copy-paste old codes, this template is going to make it more consistent and easier to use.
 * 5) It's worth standardizing the formatting for the proposal outcomes, especially since such text should go in a template since they're repetitive and are found in several pages, exactly what templates are for. While comic sans dominates proposal outcomes, we also have a few off Times New Roman-styled outcome text lying around, so we should fix that too. That means getting rid of the comic sans: the typeface clashes with everything else (especially since we're supposed to be a serious wiki) and, as a result, the casual, unsophisticated typeface appears ugly and sloppy, which goes against our idea that proposals should be serious matters. Years of careless handling with typefaces do not justify continued mishandling nor do years of editor oversight on what should've been a template in the first place. The only reason it is tedious to change them is the result of that error. Once the changes are done, everything will be much easier to manage, from the template itself to how proposals should be archived. I also think we don't really need to change to Verdana since the font (the colors, size, and bold, that is) does a good job at helping it stand out. Sure, it might seem all minor in the end, but the little stuff shouldn't be disregarded. We should regard every aspect of the wiki as if we care; the egregious use of comic sans gives off the vibe of carelessness. This is an easy, harmless fix. The biggest issue I find is that many of these outcomes are tucked under protected archives, but that in of itself shouldn't be a reason against this change.
 * 6) This will make things so much easier. Per all.
 * 7) Ho boy this has bothered me for ages. Per proposal.
 * 8) Per all
 * 9) Please do. This'll definitely make our work easier.
 * 1) Please do. This'll definitely make our work easier.

Comments
Maybe we can take a step further and color-code proposal outcomes similar to color legend in the proposals archive? 18:47, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * i don't know, i think it's a bit complex to remember what passed and what didn't, and over time, we might have to remember to change it. I think sticking to a three color scheme would keep those simpler. You also have to keep in mind that this also applies to TPP, not simply mainspace proposals, so more stuff gets affected. 19:02, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * It is the simplest thing currently: green passed, red failed, gray has no impact.-- 19:05, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * ---A spontaneous idea is that we could technically allow both ways of using the template.-- 19:09, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't be 100% opposed to this, but wouldn't it overcomplicate things? 19:10, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I did it with a slight modification. If you feel that this creates an inconsistency you can revert it, it's your idea after all.-- 19:13, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I'm a stupid layperson, so it's pretty unclear to me what you changed. 19:15, 18 April 2016 (EDT)

"Comic Sans is not a web-safe font, and any browser who doesn't have it installed will fallback to Times New Roman"

It'll actually fallback to the default Arial typeface, so that's not a valid point. 20:41, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * whatever 21:33, 18 April 2016 (EDT)
 * It will depend on the browser really, it can be either but something completely different as well. Inconsistent just the same though. 14:12, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
 * @Mister Wu: tie is basically no-quorum, I created that because it is certainly easier to write than no-quorum, even if it is technically incorrect. The end result is the same. In reality, the template defaults to the no-quorum if you don't specify/specify something incorrectly.
 * @Baby Luigi: right now, if you specify a color (red,green,gray/grey) in the first parameter you can use the second format, otherwise you default to the first format. The usage didn't even get a slight change. And the template edit is just ~55 bytes. Fundamentally I removed the second version so this proposal can focus on the idea of implementing a template in the first place.-- 05:13, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Sounds good. I think I'll just remove option 2 and I'll reset the votes considering that options have been changed (but not the proposal itself). btw, which link to the coding itself is the updated one, so i can link it to my proposal? 10:57, 19 April 2016 (EDT)

Merging option 2 in makes me slightly tempted to oppose. As I said in my original vote, "More parameters might be slightly more complex to use, but make it much less likely that things will end as a mess of inconsistency all over again." I really think this is a serious misstep... - Reboot (talk) 11:07, 19 April 2016 (EDT)


 * @Baby Luigi: It's already been updated. The template draft stayed at User_talk:Megadardery/2 and the usage doc stayed at User_talk:Megadardery/1.
 * @Reboot: The usage didn't get the slightest modification, it was simply merged with the other version. You can use whichever you want. The parameters stayed as simple as they were. Check the usage page again.-- 11:12, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I think his concern is that the extra parameter is overcomplicating things. Like, he would like things to be kept consistent. Besides, uh, is there any use for the color parameter option? I think the simply "passed" or "failed" covers all bases when dealing with proposals. 11:15, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * exactly, it is just a different way to use the same template. I told you that you can revert it if you want, I don't mind which way the template is implemented, I only care that a template is implemented.-- 11:23, 19 April 2016 (EDT)


 * Nothing to do what *I* would do, and everything to do with what "random percentage of userbase" would do. Basically, I think if there was only one set of fixed options, it would stop things devolving into a ****ing mess all over again. Having the open "option 2" variables available means things will go wrong.
 * IOW, I think having "option 2" available as well is a Bad Idea if the idea of this is consistency. It should be either/or, and since there's a finite number of outcomes, best to have them locked-in as in "option 1". - Reboot (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2016 (EDT)

Hm, I don't think option 2 is even necessary either, given how superior and cleaner the first one is. The outcomes in the first template are already color-coded and there seems to be no real reason to use different colors outside of red, gray, or green. My suggestion was just a passing thought, but even then, there shouldn't have to be a separate color parameter. 19:12, 19 April 2016 (EDT)

Reorganize species designations in Koopa (species) and Koopa Troopa
See one of Walkazo's essays for a start.

Note: Unless otherwise stated, all referrals here to "Koopa" are intended to mean the Koopa family that consists of turtle-like creatures; examples are Koopa Troopas, Hammer Bros., Lakitus, Shellcreepers, Buzzy Beetles, Spike). The Koopa Troopa species, often shortened in the games as "Koopa", will be referred as the full name; examples are Koopa Paratroopas, Dry Bones, Koopa Striker,

Throughout the wiki's history, there has been confusion surrounding the Koopas as a group of turtle-like creatures and the Koopa Troopa species, mainly how and where to categorize species in these groups. Since there isn't clearly defined taxonomy and "Koopa Troopa" is often shortened to "Koopa", there is always an unclear way of handling these two pages, and, as a result, they're a total mess (with the misuse of subspecies terminology aggravating the situation). The Koopa (species) article, for instance is wildly inconsistent and incomplete. The derived species list under the infobox includes several sorts of stuff including the basic parent species such as Hammer Bro. and Koopa Troopa (not all of them), but also sometimes derived species from them including Ice Bro. and Beach Koopa. By containing several Koopa Troopa derivatives, the article focuses on Koopa Troopas, which feeds into the confusion and leads users to think that this page is redundant with the Koopa Troopa article. The Koopa (species) is needed though, as Bowser, the Koopalings, and Bowser Jr. are not defined aside from being part of the Koopa family, and it would be convenient that other turtle-like Koopa species such as Lakitus, Hammer Bros., and Buzzy Beetles be placed under this article rather than get awkwardly lumped with Koopa Troopas.

The common question is, "What is the difference between a Koopa and a Koopa Troopa?" The logical answer would be that "Koopa" is an umbrella designation to turtle-like creatures in the Mario series. Koopa Troopas are the most common member under this Koopa family. The current state of these articles, however, fail to adequately answer this. While it's true that Koopa Troopas are often shortened to "Koopas" because they're the quintessential Koopa, the focus on Koopa (species) should not be Koopa Troopas. The article instead should cover all creatures that are deemed Koopas (including derivatives), logically or officially, and organize it by basic species. To avoid having it becoming a souped up category or list, the species and their variants will have a short description. Here is one example: There is a section on Lakitu showing a short paragraph on the basic enemy, and Lakitu's variants are listed as one-liner annotated bullet points (the header for this section should be "Lakitu variants" or "Other Lakitu species", though, not just "Lakitus", for the sake of being technical). Unfortunately, the late Walkazo had not brought up the issue of derived species from derived species such as Dull Bones nor is there a discussion on species derived from multiple sources such as Shady Paratroopa. I do, however, suggest that we nest these kinds of species as a double bullet point under their parent species, and creatures with multiple parents are listed twice, similar to how we organize List of species. Check this revision of my sandbox for an idea.

This proposal will not end speculation such as determining Sumo Bro. and Hammer Bro.'s relationship, but it will clear up the confusion between Koopas and Koopa Troopas which lead to illogical statements such as assuming Bowser or Lakitu are types of Koopa Troopa.

Some changes on categorizing Koopas and Koopa Troopas have already been set in place, but this proposal should set these changes rolling into a more organized and concrete form.


 * In short
 * Koopa (species) will include all Koopa creatures. We organize by basic species, alphabetically, and in derived species, we use bullet points followed by a short description.
 * Koopa Troopa will include only species that are or are a type of Koopa Troopa. This means we remove references to Hammer Bros., Magikoopas, Mechakoopas, and Spinies in the list. What is under the Koopa Troopa article infobox should be something like or the in the related species section in the Koopa Troopa gallery page.

Proposer: Deadline: April 26, 2016; 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) If this proposal passes, we can expect to clear up confusion that have plagued wiki editors for years, outlined in the Koopa (species) talk page and in Walkazo's essay page I mentioned earlier in this proposal. We can improve the quality greatly of the Koopa (species) article and somewhat of the Koopa Troopa article once this is completed.
 * 2) Per proposal
 * 3) - Per proposal.
 * 4) - Clear definitions are always preferrable over ambiguity. Many pages on this wiki have the problem that they're trying to cover several widely different subjects where one would suffice. If this proposal helps to alleviate that problem, I am all for it.
 * 5) Independently from the simple organization matter, I definitely support this idea!

Comments
Isn't this why we have the and  templates? -- 21:57, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I believe the issue is more complex than that, though I guess we could make good use of those templates in the meantime. 22:09, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Done. -- 23:32, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Good, now we need to apply major edits to fully clear the confusion once this proposal passes. 19:03, 20 April 2016 (EDT)

I've seen the sandbox, and I'm wondering if it would make sense, in the case of multiple species, to cite the main species among the derived ones, with a "The family of the X species" title to the list (maybe it should be genus, but probably family is easier to understand and, most importantly, its taxonomic sense can be removed to avoid biological speculation). Also, what about an image for each family?--Mister Wu (talk) 22:00, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Well, the paragraph of information already pertains to the main species in the sandbox (which is taken from late Walkazo's prototype), unless you mean derived species with their own derivatives including Paratroopas and Dry Bones. Oh, we can always put the image in each family, no hurry for that. 22:09, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Just a matter of classification - you talk about the generic characteristic of the family and then you list the species - which means that also the species that gives the name to the family is in, just like the red fox (Vulpes Vulpes) is among the other foxes. In your example, you're giving the link to Hammer Bros. in another place, which might be confusing.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:16, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Pardon? Je ne te comprends pas. I organize this by parent species, not necessarily by generic characteristic. Parent species are generally the most well-known of the family so it would make sense to have a paragraph on them and then have the minor derived species with a small description listed underneath. If that's what I'm getting from you. 22:52, 19 April 2016 (EDT)
 * In the case of Hammer Bros., the description is generic enough that it would also fit Boomerang Bros., Fire Bros. and Ice Bros. as well, so it can be interpreted as a description of the members of a family. Which would make sense, this is how it is usually done: you give generic description that fit almost all the members of the family and then list the species. In this case, it would make sense to have the species that give the name to the family in the list. But really, it's just a minor matter on how you want to organize.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:01, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I believe I get what you're saying. I do, however, think that it can work both ways. We can list the parent species in one bullet point and just add other bullet points underneath them, but you'll getting into level 4 bullet points, if anyone is okay with that (me, I don't have an issue). Anyhow, either way works. I think I'll be doing the way you suggested, though. 19:03, 20 April 2016 (EDT)
 * I don't think it's always needed to do this, Hammer Bros., Fire Bros., Boomerang Bros. and Ice Bros. could stay on the same level, as they really are variations, while of course Shiny Hammer Bros. would stay as a further level of Hammer Bros. If in some cases (Lakitus and Koopa Troopas come to mind) we indeed end up with a parent species and only derived species, you might use your current layout and just say something like "species derived from X" instead of the single bullet point with many level-2 species. But in the end, I think it's just a case-by-case scenario, just do what you think is better while following Walkazo's suggestions that are indeed a good classification (after all, she studied these topics with passion and dedication!) and, if something else comes to my mind, I might use the sandbox to propose a different classification so that ultimately we can see what works better. This is also why in the end I already voted.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:04, 20 April 2016 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.