Talk:Birdo (species)

Article Creation
WHAT!!! I WAS REPEATEDLY TOLD NOT TO MAKE THIS ARTICLE!!!- Ultimatetoad


 * Not to be rude, but the proposal that was passed said that we were to split Birdo into her character, and her species.
 * Rooben, Ultimatetoad wrote that before the proposal passed. I didn't know it either, but apparently I'm not the first to propose that this article be created.  Wild!  22:13, 11 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Whoa! Yeah, he wrote this almost a year ago! Ooops...
 * No problem! I had to check the first time I saw it, too!  23:04, 11 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Yes, of course, I was the one who told him not to create it. Back then, no one decided if we wanted to create it, if Birdo was really a species and I didn't want this article. I still want it, but the proposal was finished. Ah well. :P http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif

Stumpers' To-Do List
I know I have a big part of the article done, but I'm by no means calling it a day. We need to remove the information that is added to this article from the Birdo article. Here's my list of things to add to this article and remove from the Birdo one when they overlap: 23:04, 11 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Adding "Betrayal Most Proper" to the History section
 * Biology section
 * physiology
 * life cycle
 * abilities
 * Information from the Comics
 * Noteable Birdos (technically complete)
 * Actual Histroy (from character to species, etc.)

Hey Stumpers should I put this tag because it not finshin. Template:Construction Princess Grapes Butterfly 06:27, 12 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Not that it's really up to me, but I wouldn't think that the article would need that tag simply because the article has pretty much all the basics that it needs to be substantial for now. With the video game articles that have very little info and still need work, that's when that tag would come in handy. This article has a good portion of information, and it's mostly gonna need just little edits; perhaps the occasional add-of-bio.
 * I think I will go ahead on put the template on there. Thanks for reminding me about it!  The article technically is fine as it is, but I think its good to put the header up there until I can get information about the comics there... I don't want people to think that Birdos have appeared nowhere else! ;)  18:10, 12 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Okay. I didn't know. :o
 * Wha? You shouldn't be sorry! :D You're fine!  And doing awesome stuff around here.  22:31, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Hey, thanks! :D W00t! I done been complimented!

Yaaaay! Nice Template! Princess Grapes Butterfly 15:01, 14 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks!

Just thought I'd mention this here; I found another comic Birdos appear in, "Betrayal Most Proper". Two attack Mario and Toad when they storm Bowser's Castle looking for Wooster. Here the panel:. -- Sir Grodus 20:06, 14 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks very much!! 21:17, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

Plural
Is it "Birdo" or "Birdos"? I don't believe I've ever heard a plural used before! If that's the case, we should probably use "Birdos" because we know the plural of "Yoshi" is "Yoshies." 17:32, 14 March 2008 (EDT)

I think it plural if there more then one birdo is might be Birdos right or Birdies. Well is Yoshies have a plural sure that Birdos have plurals too. (This is too confusing!) Princess Grapes Butterfly 19:36, 14 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I would think (going by my school book) that it would be "Birdoes". That looks weird, but it says if a vowel (o) follows a consonant (d), then an "es" must be added; if it is a vowel-vowel ending, it's just "s".


 * I think the Marioverse has a different way to do this, maybe? http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif


 * Thanks, Rooben. Thing is, it lookes like "Bir -- does" now... as in "That's what he does for a living." But this is English we're talking about, and there are plenty of strange, non-phonetic things like that.  Does anyone know of any word that ends in "do" or "bo" or whatever?  13:06, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Hmm...well, all I can think of (off the top of my head) is: "Psychos", "hobos", "albinos", and "armadillos". I know there's a lot more than that though. o.0
 * Huh... in all of those, it's "os" rather than "oes"... wild. 14:16, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I totally agree!
 * Okay, so here's the deal: it's not correct either way because it has never been used in a plural context... this would even be a conjectural title article except that the Super Show has something to the extent of, "Come back with Toad, you stupid Birdo!" BUT, the precident set with Toad, the precedent sent with the words you listed (which was awesome... how did you think of all of this?), the whole "does" appearance of the plurals, and the fact that we all agree it looks better so there is no opposition, I think we can safely use "Birdos."  Awesome!  Case closed, IMO.  Thanks Rooben!  21:55, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * o_0 That's kwazy! But it makes sense. Glad I could help!
 * I'm coming in a bit late here, but I think the difference between words like "does" and "albinos" is because of pronounciation: "Do" (doo) becomes "Does" (duhs), while albino (ahl-by-noe) keeps the "oh" sound (ahl-by-nose). Since Birdo is pronounced "bird-oh", it should be Birdos (bird-ohs). English is a pain: I cound only figure this out because I'm also learning French and its pronounciation rules. - 18:56, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The pronunciation has nothing to do with it--what about echoes, tomatoes, torpedoes, heroes, and potatoes?
 * Very true - I can't believe I didn't remember those counter-examples at the time! As I said before, English is an inconsistant pain in the rear. I say simpler is better, so we should stick with "Birdos" (IMO). - 01:47, 29 June 2009 (EDT)

Need another main picture
The character depicted in the main picture is "the" birdo, as she's wearing a diamond ring. We need to get some random birdo. Mumbles 19:19, 30 May 2008 (EDT)


 * It'd be nice if Nintendo released official artwork of lotsa Birdos, but the current one works because, well, Birdo is a Birdo.
 * Mumbles: the Birdos in Mario Strikers Charged and I believe Super Mario Strikers as well all wore rings. It's a big oversight of the developement team.  In other words, what you are saying applies to all gimes except the Strikers games.  And don't worry -- I'll replace that image as soon as I fine one better.  21:40, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Birdos in Sports
Is it really necessary to talk about how the Birdo character represents its species in all these games? It doesn't do that for Yoshi on the Yoshi (species) page, or Toad on Toad (species). Plus its not gender neutral. I'm going ahead and removing the superfluous information, but I thought I'd mention it here anyway. - 19:07, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I included it because, if you were to write an article about a race of humanity, such as Asians, Caucasians, African-Americans, etc. you would include references to individual members of the race. Keep in mind that the Yoshi (species) and Toad (species) pages are far from complete if memory serves.  21:58, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Okay, but having sections for each sport Birdo played was a bit excessive. There should just be, say, a one-liner about how it plays which sports; but it shouldn't be the focus of the section. - 23:52, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed. I couldn't believe that I had written over 1000 characters about her and her alone.  01:21, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

new color
I was playing mario super sluggers, and in movie clip one, me and my bro both saw a tan colored birdo with a red bow. im adding it.

ok, not m best edit. if uthink the section shold be renamed colors, feel free to do so.


 * Hey, that's a good section. I'm thinking if we put a biology section or something like that, we could describe many facts about the species, including the color.  Anyway, the information is here, which is the important part - organization is just making everything look good!  Thanks!  22:00, 20 January 2009 (EST)

Super Mario Bros. 2
Should we consider each Birdo you fight as a boss in SMB2 as a separate Birdo, and individual members of the Birdo species? They each have different abilities and colors, so they can't be the same one. Redstar 14:48, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * It's true, but what will we name them? Birdo (boss1), Birdo (boss2), Birdo (boss 3), you get the idea.
 * I don't think naming them will be necessary. There's so few information for them that they could just be generally described on this page. Example: "There are x Birdos found in SMB2. Each exhibits a different ability, such as spitting eggs, fire, and doing so at different speeds. They also vary in color, going from pink to red to green..." You get the idea. But, Stumpers said on Birdo's Talk page that he believes they're the same one, though nothing official truly supports it. Redstar 16:32, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * I doubt it. How, and why, would they change colors? In real life, animals only change colors to hide, not whenever it feels like it.
 * His reasoning was they share a voice, though that could be explained by similarities in vocal-sounds in a particular species, as well as by Nintendo not wanting to hire more voice actors; and that the Birdos become increasingly agitated at the player's persistence. Without reading/hearing the actual script, I couldn't tell you if that's indicative of anything other than minions angry that they have to deal with a hero that the lower ranks couldn't take care of. Redstar 16:46, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * Just put the other Birdos in the article. I'm pretty sure nobody will argue.

The instruction manual explicitly says that the Birdo in SMB2 is a character. See this. 17:06, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * Understandable. But I'm not sure that extends to all the Birdos in the game, since it says he "likes to shoot eggs". Some of the later Birdos don't do that. I thought a fair way to go about it would be to write something like this on the Birdo page: "While the manual identifies Birdo as a character, several Birdos are encountered throughout Super Mario Bros. 2. It is unclear which exactly is "the" Birdo, though it may be the very first one fought." Redstar 17:32, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * The trophy description for SSBM and SSBB states that Birdo can shoot fireballs. 20:05, 8 December 2009 (EST)
 * Well, that settles that... But the Birdo is still a Birdo, so we should still have a Super Mario Bros. 2 section. Redstar 20:49, 8 December 2009 (EST)

Chaper 6-1 SAMMER GUYS!
Using tippi on those birds that fly down against some sammer guys call them "Birdo"s LucariosAura 11:10, 21 February 2010 (EST)
 * uh... hello? LucariosAura (used to be specialk) 05:19, 27 February 2010 (EST)
 * Be more clear about what you're talking about. No one is responding because we don't understand what you're trying to tell us. - 23:39, 5 March 2010 (EST)
 * The "Squatting Birdo" Sammer Guy in Super Paper Mario (and some other sammer guys) have birds that fly down, and they are called Birdos if you use Tippi on them. LucariosAura (used to be specialk) 08:19, 7 March 2010 (EST)
 * Bump. LucariosAura (used to be specialk) 12:16, 17 April 2010 (EDT)
 * "birds that fly down"? None of the Sammer Guys have that. There are leves that fly down, but A: Those are an intangible part of the map and B: you can't tattle them. And the ninjas that come down are called NinJoes, NinJohns, or NinJerries, and thus, not Birdos. Deleted, Nameless, and Pageless

Are Birdos all female?
Aren't all Birdos female just as all Yoshis are male? I mean, you never see any female Yoshis, and you never see any male Birdos. Mario24 (talk) 09:49, 11 August 2012 (EDT)

Actually, the genders of both species remain ambiguous.--Vommack (talk) 13:28, 11 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Actually, male and female Yoshis have both appeared, although there is still some ambiguity in other cases. The character Birdo started off as a male who wanted to be female, and even though it's not as simple anymore, it's still evidence that Birdos are divided into the two genders. Besides, taking the lack of males as a sign that there are no males would be highly speculative even without the Birdo character stuff. - 23:14, 12 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Also a male Birdo appeared in the cartoons Cheepy.

about the MK7 appearance
the only place where it is mentioned that they appear in MK7 is in the "latest appearance"

Infobox art
Would it not make more sense to use the blue or yellow Birdo art from MKT? I know it's not the signature color but at least it's more typical to the Mario franchise as a whole compared to Strikers. 73.147.234.34 19:02, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * I have to agree, it just seems rather misleading and easily mistaken to be the character Birdo. I think the Light-Blue Birdo should be in the info box, while the Yellow one can appear in the section of Mario Kart Tour in addition to having a gallery for the Birdos as well. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 19:41, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Personally, I see this as more proof the pages should be merged outright. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:49, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * So it can be cluttered with more info on Birdo's page? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 20:43, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * No, because this page is a cluttered embarrassment and having this info on Birdo's page would give this info the cohesion it needs. It's not about biographies or anything like that, it's about concepts. That's why Dry Bowser can b both a form of Bowser and a separate character who is a "family friend" at the same time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:50, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah but like Yoshi's, Birdo's are a species along with one being the particular character, so logically Yoshi himself should be merged in the species article vice versa. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 21:03, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yoshi has actually appeared as a species in a plot-important capacity. Almost all of these are background or otherwise generic appearances. Heck, the fact that they say "Birdo (light blue)" rather than "Light Blue Birdo" implies it is the "main" Birdo, as that is how they parse "costume" characters, not recolor species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:08, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Except multiple Birdo's appear in the background usually as audience in the Mario spin-offs. Yeah but Birdo (Light Blue) doesn't really confirm they are the same character though. Red Koopa (Freerunning) and Gold Koopa (Freerunning) would be the same Koopa Troopa but they are definitely not the same characters since they separately appear in Super Mario Odyssey. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 21:16, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick: Out of curiosity, why do you consider Birdo a different situation than Jaxi, which you're currently trying to split even though that species is even less prevalent than Birdos? -- 21:20, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * In Jaxi's case only one shows firsthand signs of life at all. In this case it's whatever the adaptations wants, whether there even is a species or character. Also, @GameMakerGuy How on Earth is "multiple in the background" not in the "background or otherwise generic appearances" I mentioned? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:22, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * There are still multiple colored Birdos in the Mario Spin-offs, yes their roles aren't big compared to the Yoshis but they are still their own species as well. Also, Penguin Luigi isn't called Luigi (Penguin) so does that make him separate just because of not having a punctuation? The variants aren't even consistent to the names. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 21:52, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's an established power-up, like Gold Mario, Ice Mario, or Metal Mario (who also needs merged with his "character" article per Nintendo's own official interpretation). Regardless, the fact that they haven't had an important role and are identical in every way but color is why they should be merged. Look at Dorrie's page and see how the "character" and "species" are seamlessly on there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:15, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well yeah because there is not a noble character. Especially for some reason, characters like Goomba (Mario Party Advance) has his own page despite being a Goomba. Well either way, I'm not agreeing to this because then the page is going to be cluttered on Birdo's article, since the species will have too much info for their roles different from the regular Birdos (such as appearing in some of the Mario & Sonic series where they have a roles in those games, where regular Birdo isn't or a cameo). Another thing, Peachette is listed as a variant to Peach on the Mario Kart Tour article despite being a powered-up form to Toadette and not having text like "Peach (Peachette)" or "Toadette (Peachette)". --Gamermakerguy (talk) 22:33, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * That is those games' interpretation of the Birdo concept. The MPA pages were split under faulty logic, IMO, as those are also that game's interpretation of the respective subject. Also what do you mean, "not a [notable] character?" Dorrie was originally depicted as a character before being changed to a species where the blue one is still called "Dorrie" by name. As for Peachette, that, like Penguin Luigi, is an established power-up, but uses Peach's base model and basic animations, not Toadette's. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * When was that confirmed? Other than just one appearing in Super Mario 64 and Mario Party Advance? Unlike Yoshi who appeared with his species in their debut, Super Mario World. Peachette in model is a variant to Peach but there is no concrete evidence she is a costume for Peach even if she is the so called "variant" to her when she is a powered-up version to Toadette. Yet Toadette and Peachette are separate together in Mario Kart Tour, much like Bowser is to Dry Bowser, despite also being a form for both of them for the sake of just appearing for the game. Then the same should also be done to have Shadow Mario be merged to Bowser Jr's article just because Shadow Mario doesn't appear in games as much anymore while Bowser Jr himself does more so and Peachette being merged to Toadette's article. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 22:55, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'm not suggesting to merge transformations to the base character, just concepts to the same concept o.O Also, it's been confirmed that not every instance of the "Toad" or "Yoshi" character is the same as any of the others. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:00, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * I do know that the Green Yoshi (could be the same particular Green Yoshi not the character but another one or possibly more other Green Yoshis when playing in Bowser's Castle or the Extra levels or for the GBA version, the secret levels) in the Yoshi's Island games is not Yoshi himself and with some other games. But how does it not qualify for Birdo when some games have both Birdo herself even as a playable character while some games that have her such as in the Mario Baseball there is more species in audience, Its just like with the Boom Boom and his species issue where its either they are implied to be the same one or there could be more especially one level in the World-e levels of Super Mario Advance 4 has two of them together. Even Yoshi and the species are going to be majorly cluttered, even though the species article is a major mess as it is. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 23:11, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Boom Boom is another that should be merged outright (moreso than this one, actually, because there are times when US English and British English are at odds over interpreting, showing how little it matters). Also, in the baseball thing, the audience ones are purely cosmetic as far as gameplay goes, and can be mentioned as a foonote easily. Much like the team members who have their species in the audience. Toad, Yoshi, and Kamek/Magikoopa have had enough major roles as character and species individually to stay split at this juncture, but Birdos and Boom-Booms just leave us with a multi-article mess. This has always been an eyesore of a page to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:19, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * The Birdos from the audience are indeed cosmetic, you're not wrong about that, despite the Mario Striker games having differently colored Birdos along with other species as side kicks for the Captains and yet Yoshi himself is a captain and not his species (except in the audience too). Especially Toad himself (other than Toadette) is not playable in the Mario Baseball games while his species who are mostly just NPCs that always don't get big roles either in most games. So what if the Birdo species don't have a big role anyways? Birdo herself never even gets big roles these days compared to the past other than just appearing in Mario spin-offs now. Man these pages are messing up my memory. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 23:27, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * This is why I think they should be merged. They aren't specifically relevant as a species or a character, but as a concept. Besides, if we assume all pink Birdos are the "character," that would include the one on Strikers Peach's team, except that one's no more relevant than any of the others other than getting the artwork. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:31, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well of course there is more pink Birdos and the ones from Strikers is a different story too, just like how there is more Green Yoshis while the character is a green one. But usually the only one in the spin-off games is the playable ones themselves, yet there are sometimes more of them in the audience or not, the Birdo species in Super Mario Bros. 2 are implied to be either a species or one character but there is no concrete evidence for any of them. I can understand why the Yoshi articles are separate. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 23:39, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * The SMB2 sections is another reason to merge these. It's sloppy on two pages, and doesn't quite seem right anyways. Not to mention redundancy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:41, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * I still don't see a really good reason why this needs to be split anyways "just" because their role isn't significant as you think. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:01, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * The reason it should be merged is it's sloppy and the small amount of things it covers can far more succinctly be on Birdo's main page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:15, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's not the only reason its sloppy, it's also because its missing a lot of information about their full history in all the games they appeared in, it doesn't even mention anything about the Mario & Sonic games either which there role is big in since they are rivals in a couple of the games. I found sloppy articles and fixed them up, though it costed a lot of time and heavy research to find them, I did this with Birdo's Egg as well. The article jsut needs a fix up really, because I know Birdos appear in more games then just what we are seeing in the articles. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:22, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but they're not big appearances (and so few provide infobox artwork for it...) anyways, another great example is Koopa Kid. It's a playable character, a shopkeeper, and what amounts to an arbitrarily large species of background or hindrance NPCs all at once, and it only gets one article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:39, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well, Koopa Kid has the distinction of all individuals having the exact same appearance. Regardless, if the Birdo pages are to be merged, my primary concerns are: 1. Would it be written in a way that focuses on Birdo as the individual, and brings up their species appearances when they occur (e.g. In the Mario Baseball series, multiple Birdos appear in cutscenes. - think of how Bowser is clearly an individual, but for his Mario Maker sections, it would say "multiple Bowsers can be placed on one level")? 2. If this passes, I expect other pages to get merged, for example, Flutter and Flutter (character), effectively changing the Wiki's "rules" again. MarioComix (talk) 00:50, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's because Koopa Kid is both a species and they can split themselves as we saw in Mario Party 5 via Story Mode. That made sense for it to be their own primary article. There is more than just artwork that needs a gallery you know, especially there is some sprites, icons and screenshots for them to show, merging the Birdos articles are jsut going to get ridiculously more confusion then it already is. Look Mario Kart Tour is still being supported so more colored Birdos can still likely come with more artwork to come even if it's reused from Birdo's artwork from Mario Party 9, which is only for budgeting reasons. Besides Koopa Kid doesn't appear anymore compared to the Birdo species and Koopa Kid was ONLY in some of Hudson's Mario Party games. Even Yoshi and his species being merged will be a major clutter and be way too much of a read as well. I'm really concerned about this too. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:51, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I have already said multiple times Yoshi has enough relevance as both a character and a species he should stay split for now ._. As it stands, this page is a scrapheap and always has been, while Birdo's "character" page is...OK, but it'd be a more full overview of what constitutes Birdo if they were merged. Why should the SMBSS and NCS be separate from the main Birdo page? That's what constituted a Birdo in those media, after all, there was no alleged "individual character" there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:49, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Well logically the Yoshi and species should be merged too, it would be way too unorganized and inconsistent to merge the Birdos and along with other species being merged with the character without VERY strong reasons. Because there are a lot of Birdos and in the The Super Mario Bros Super Show!, none of them are a particular character other than the notable members on the list such as Cheepy and his mother which are different characters and only for that episode. There were no other Yoshis in the Super Mario World Cartoon, just Yoshi himself and is the main character, unlike the Birdo species in the The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:06, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * No, it wouldn't. Again, there is a very large amount of information on both that actually do work as full articles in that case without leaving out important pieces of design history. This page, on the other hand, feels more like a "and here's the rest hidden away" to Birdo's main article than an actual standalone article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:11, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Yes but then the rest of pages will be misleading and out of place without stronger reasons why they should be merged or separate. You're acting like Birdos are hidden as an audience all the time when these days Nokis and Piantas have been in audience and not getting much roles nowadays either. They used to be important, Birdos used to be important but now they ahve been simple background characters now. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:36, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's not a good reason to keep them split. This eyesore of a page makes huge jumps time-wise and has just so little to cover that it bothered me 10 or so years ago, and still hasn't had enough improvement to change my mind on this. It would flow better as an article if it were merged. That's not misleading, that's just how it is. We should describe things how Nintendo depicts them, and what they depict currently is not a "character" and a "species," but an adaptable concept. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:39, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Because nobody either had the time, didn't notice, unmotivated, patients, etc. What good is this going to do by merging this anyway? It's not going to make a huge difference but cause more of a bigger mess! The article for Birdo herself won't be as relevant anymore because then you would be adding irrelevant info to what is about her but it's also going to talk about the species themselves too often. The other issue is that Birdo herself doesn't appear as often let's say for Yoshi. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:49, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * This page being split is the only mess to be had regarding this. Birdo isn't some consistently portrayed individual with a deep biography, ergo, talking about the species is hardly irrelevant. Now, I need to sleep. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:04, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * You're the only the one that says its a mess. MarioComix isn't wrong on what he is saying either. Give me a load of reasons why it would benefit better to be merged then? Night. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 03:25, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * This displays an enormous time gap, there's barely any information to cover or images to display due to the fact that a majority of the later ones are background appearances, the only time they have an actually relevant role the "character" is absent (which to any casual reader would instead make it look like that info is missing from Birdo's own page)...there's plenty of reasons. "One's a character and one's a species" isn't a reason to keep them split at this point, it's an excuse. Scrooge200 agrees with me on this too, and we almost never agree on splits and merges. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Then the readers including casuals are going to think that the species of Birdo's are all the same character when that is not true at all or better yet just clones to her when they are not at all just because there is more of them with a super similar appearance, seriously not a great idea than what you're making it to be. Okay one person agrees. But that's not it so far. Yes they are a background characters usually but they sometimes appear in some games as playables or rivals both of the Mario Strikers, Mario & Sonic (London, Sochi, Rio (both versions), Mario Kart Tour. So I once again still don't see the reason good enough. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 14:49, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

(restarting indent) "Then the readers including casuals are going to think that the species of Birdo's are all the same character when that is not true at all" - But with the current setup, we have it as though all of the Birdo "characters" are the same individual being when that is not true. The inconsistency over whether she's a transgirl or a biological female speaks enough to that. See, with Yoshis and Toads it's still a relevant path through the design history, but here, we go straight from Western supplementary adaptations to mid-GCN era stuff, with almost everything that follows amounting to "funny color Birdo appears in a crowd somewhere" or in MKT's case, "funny color Birdo appears and is treated in every way like normal Birdo." That doesn't tell us how the Birdo's design or characterization works or evolved, it's merely separating upon lines that become flimsier the closer you look at them. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:03, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * There is no concrete evidence that these colored Birdos are the same character anyways and neither is it a fact or confirmed which is also why it seems out of place to include them in Birdo's article. Also there isn't just colored Birdo's that are species there are other species who are characters in media as well. People are going say like oh Cheepy and his mother is Birdo, Thunder Birdo is Birdo, etc. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 15:53, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * ....I think if anyone was gonna do that, they'll do so regardless of our setup. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Hmm...Well I'm still a bit concerned about this merge, not because I don't want it too, but just how flimsy it could become without noticing issues. I now wonder what the others will think about this move though. Also where did Scrooge200 say he agrees with you on merging this, I don't see it on any one you two's talk pages? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 16:31, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * It was on Discord. Regardless, all it would take is writing and viewing on a case-by-case basis, which is how Nintendo usually treats this sort of thing anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I see now and did anyone else agree then? And how does Nintendo exactly treat it like that? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 16:48, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Nintendo seems to basically treat these as ideas. That's why Toad, Boom Boom, Birdo, Yoshi, Kamek/Magikoopa, Dorrie, and many many others are treated as interchangeably a character and/or a species (or ambiguous cases like Boom Boom in SM3DW). This partially stems from the modifier "a" not existing or having an equivalent in Japanese (ie, "Birdo" vs "a Birdo"), but it can be found in RareWare's things too (Klump and Krusha's descriptions vs enemy implementation, for example). Now, for a long time, we've separated characters and species, though it is becoming clear that this is not necessarily the right ways to go. Even the most solid ones (Toad, Yoshi, and Kamek) have had large shake-ups in that regard at various points, but I want to save considering those for last as best we can. Birdo, Boom Boom, Klump, and Krusha are currently split along rather tenuous lines, thus causing the actual distinctions to delve into speculation and otherwise user-interpretation at times. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:59, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I seriously don't know what else to say anymore...Well good luck I suppose if people are mostly going to agree on this, if it ever gets merged for whatever reason. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:18, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Birdos Sprites, Models, Screenshots - Important
Hi, across almost every single games, we miss some pictures in the Birdos Gallery. I will talk of that here, because this make no sense to talk about that in every games we miss some Birdos pictures. Due to high activity here, I will list games I notice we miss some pictures, hoping someday somebody will see that and brings pictures we miss. Here we go!

Super Mario Strikers (2005) :

- Pink Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Peach)

- Red Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Mario)

- Orange Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Daisy)

- Yellow Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Wario)

- Green / Dark Green Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Luigi)

- Light Blue Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Yoshi)

- Blue / Purple Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Waluigi)

- Brown Birdo T-Pose Model (Team Donkey Kong)


 * It can be interesting to got Audiences Members too, since Green Birdos in the audience is not the same colour as the Playable Dark Green Birdos. That is one proof it's possible there is 2 Different Green Birdo existing. Note that depending of the Stage, Audience Members can change colours. Also, Brown Birdo only appear in this game, so it can be very interesting to report it.

Mario Strikers Charged (2007) :

- Red Birdo Banner from the Bowser Team

- Red Birdo Banner from the Bowser Jr. Team

- Red Birdo Banner from the Petey Piranha Team

- Orange Birdo Banner from the Daisy Team

- Orange Birdo Banner from the Yoshi Team

- Yellow Birdo Banner from the Bowser Team

- Yellow Birdo Banner from the Bowser Jr. Team

- Yellow Birdo Banner from the Petey Piranha Team

- Light Blue Birdo Banner from the Daisy Team

- Blue / Purple Birdo Banner from the Donkey Kong Team

- Blue / Purple Birdo Banner from the Diddy Kong Team

- Unused Yellow & Blue Birdo Banner from the Peach Team (if it exist)

Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games (Wii – 2011), (3DS – 2012) :

- Pink Birdo Icon

- Blue Birdo Icon

Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games (2013) :

- Team Birdo Icon

- Pink Birdo Head Icon

- Pink Birdo Head and Shoulders Icon

Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (Wii U & 3DS – 2016) :

- Red Birdo Icon

- Yellow Birdo Icon

- Green Birdo Icon

- Light Blue Birdo Icon Icon

- Blue Birdo Icon

Mario Kart Tour (2019 - 2020) :

- Yellow Birdo Pack pose (probably) on Yoshi Circuit Background (this image doesn't exist yet)

Mario & Sonic at the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games (2019) :

- Red Birdo Head Icon

- Blue Birdo Head Icon


 * Others Birdos Heads Icons if they exist. The Page about the game miss details about which colours that exist for Supporting Characters in General.

Note : I just want to make it simple for you and me, so please I don't want to argue about Pink Birdo Pictures shouldn't be report here, cause games I'm talking about are already games Pink Birdo is clearly a members of the general species, cause there is other colours variations of Birdos in these same games. Pink Birdo as a member of Species is reported here with Super Mario Strikers and Mario Strikers Charged, so we have to do same with other games Pink Birdo appear as member of Species. Ouimet (talk) 10:00, April 19, 2020
 * Thank you so much for this info. It will really come in handy. I've now listed the green and brown Birdos along with the Yoshi Circuit screenshot from Mario Kart Tour featuring the yellow and light-blue Birdos in it. The rest will need to be uploaded whoever wants to do that job. It'd be a while until I get that job done myself. As far as I know, there is no unused Yellow & Blue Birdo Banner from Peach's Team in Mario Strikers Charged files. Also did I see in the audience of Super Mario Strikers that there is a purple Birdo with an orange bow? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:58, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
 * You're Welcome! I think too. I notice your humble contribution, along with the black and white Birdos, but do you know where there is evidence for these two? I personally check a lot of games Birdos appear and didn't see any black or white Birdos yet. I think we should source where we are based on, since if there is no reference to source the Brown Birdo, it's easy to pass aside the game Brown Birdo appear, for example. Talking about the Purple Birdos that appear in the Audience on the Mushroom Kingdom Fields, I think we can say yes. It will really comes more clear when one person will take data from every characters that appear in the audience. I just want to precise we don't have to focus on assorted secondary colour like the Orange Bow to describe Birdos Species since clothing can change depending on which Fields are the Audience Members or which Teams are the Sidekicks and nobody as my knowledges studies yet every Birdos occurence in all the Super Mario Strikers's 7 Fields. Yeah I see that, we will need to add the picture of the standalone Yellow Birdo, like we did for standalone Pink Birdo in the New York Background and the standalone Light Blue Birdo in the Vancouver Background. Thanks for the info for the unused Yellow & Blue Birdo Banner from Peach's Team in Mario Strikers Charged, I won't touch the advise just in case somebody do a confirmation it didn't exist based on the data. Ouimet (talk) 14:54, April 20, 2020 (ET)
 * I've seen White Birdos only in Mario Strikers Charged in the audience such as |here, same for black but i can't find an image or GIF the black ones appear in the background, the models resources has a texture of their black color for the Birdo audience. Brown Birdos appear on DK's Team in Super Mario Strikers but that's the only game that color appears in. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 19:41, April 28, 2020 (EDT)

Nintendo Comics System
This article currently lists Birdo as a species but not a character for NCS. However, while it is true that two briefly appear in the background of "Betrayal Most Proper," only one is shown in "Bedtime for Drain-Head," which came first. Should we instead consider that one the individual character (until the hypothetical eventuality of a full merge, of which it should be noted would be consistent with how Mouser is presented)? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, April 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * Hmm good point there, maybe for now we should only mention those two Birdos on this article. My only concern is that I'm honestly not sure if that one from "Bedtime for Drain-Head" really is supposed to be Birdo herself but it may likely be the case, given it's dialogue role and part of the plot as well. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:33, April 24, 2020 (EDT)

Merging this with Birdo
(this is my first proposal ever so I'm sorry if I'm doing it wrong)

Per Doc von Schmeltwick's comments above. When Nintendo includes Birdo in games I strongly doubt that they are even considering whether it's a character or species. It's the same thing just with different roles and sometimes colours, and sometimes there's more than one. Essentially I think of this like the Shigeru Miyamoto quote about the characters fulfilling any role depending on the situation. Also, some of what's on this page is essentially fan speculation about whether Birdo is or isn't a species in a particular appearance, such as the Super Mario Bros. 2 information being on both pages (while I am aware there is conflicting evidence about whether those Birdos are the same, we could entirely avoid that problem if it was all in one page, and if anything it's just further proof that they aren't too bothered about whether Birdo is a species or character). The rest of the history section (besides the show) is saying that Birdos are in crowds with no gameplay effect and there are playable Birdos of different colours treated like normal Birdo, which can all easily be mentioned on the main Birdo article. Overall I think that there is much less reason to split here and much less information for each individual article than with Yoshi, Toad and Kamek/Magikoopa, and that this page should be handled in the same manner as other pages which simultaneously cover a character and a species like Draggadon, Koopa Kid and Dorrie. I also think it's worth noting that many spin-offs have 'individual members' of generic enemy species being playable, sometimes without others of that species being in the game.

Proposer: Deadline: April 23, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal and Doc von Schmeltwick's comments above.
 * 2) Probably would have gone with Boom Boom first to establish more precedence first, but yes. The SMB2 section's split is downright unhelpful information-wise.
 * 3) per all.
 * 4) Sure.

Oppose

 * 1) Birdo stands as a unique character enough on her own. In contrast, try coming up with unique information about an individual Dorrie, Draggadon, or Koopa Kid and see how far you get. There's probably some work that could be done with these articles, but I don't think a full-blown merge is a good idea.

Comments
@Waluigi Time: While there is quite a lot of information about the Birdo character since she often appears in games where no other Birdos appear, there seems to be a much smaller amount of information about Birdo as a species, as the page lengths show, and almost all of the appearances covered on the species article either treat the Birdos exactly the same as regular Birdo or are just insignificant cameos in crowds comparable to how, for example, Shy Guy can be both an individual character being played as and multiple insignificant crowd members at the same time. Unlike the examples I gave of shared character and species articles where there seems to be more to say about the species than the character, it's the other way around here, and what is present on the species article would be easy to incorporate on the character article, compared to Yoshi, Toad and Kamek/Magikoopa where each article has a large amount of distinct information. 12:55, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * I guess I didn't read the proposal closely enough and thought this was an attempt to merge the character into the species rather than the other way around. (Probably not much of a difference, honestly, but in my mind it's an important distinction) So you're planning for the Birdo article to still focus mostly on the character while also mentioning instances in which other Birdos appear? -- 15:29, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * Yes, and also possibly an explanation in the opening paragraph about how Birdo is usually portrayed as a distinct character but other Birdos sometimes appear and may have different colours, akin to the Koopa Kid and Dorrie articles' opening paragraphs. 15:45, April 9, 2021 (EDT)

Looking at the concerns that I brought up before, the 1st one seems to be cleared (as explained above, how Birdo is usually portrayed as a distinct character and then mentioning in which games multiple Birdos are seen). My 2nd one is how to deal with fringe situations like Flutter and Flutter (character). I would argue that such (character) distinguishers should see to be eliminated, as I don't see much purpose in excluding a minor character's information from their species page when they share the same name. Essentially, Birdo can't be the only page seeing this merge (besides Boom Boom also), and I expect that we should move to properly establish rules to explain which pages are merging and why certain (species) or (character) pages would be moving out of fashion. MarioComix (talk) 16:31, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * I would support merging Boom Boom for similar reasons to the ones I gave about Birdo in this proposal (his situation is kind of comparable to Koopa Kids'). As for the rest, I understand merging all the Mario Party Advance character articles for specific instances of a species as an NPC; keeping those split is quite comparable to splitting, say, Koopa Troopa between the 'character' playable in spin-offs and the species, which would be bad since they are the same thing just like Birdo here. However, I do have one issue with merging the MPA characters and it's the ones with unique names like Akiki and Goombetty. We could also merge them with their species, since there's about as much to say about them as the generic ones, but that would be going against the policy of giving all named NPCs pages, which was done for things like the Paper Mario series. So no matter what we do about the MPA characters, there'll be inconsistency (if we merge only the generic ones then it will be inconsistent with the unique ones staying split, if we merge the unique and generic ones it will break the named NPCs policy, and if we do nothing then that will be bad as stated above), and I'm not sure which option I think is best. There are also other similar articles like Goomba (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars character), but in cases like those there is some unique information which I'm not sure would fit on the main Goomba article, and the line between character and species for one-time NPCs tends to be much clearer than cases like Boom Boom and Birdo who reappear in any capacity the developers want. Then that leaves Yoshi, Toad and Kamek/Magikoopa which all easily have enough separate information to be on two different pages. So, I think a major deciding factor on whether to split character and species should be if there is enough information about both to warrant separate articles, which I don't think the MPA characters really have. 17:09, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * The ones with unique names can stay; notably, Goomba (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars character) has a unique Japanese name, whereas the above-mentioned Flutter and Goomba (Mario Party Advance) do not. There's also Goomba (Mario Party 4), but he has a unique design and so can stay separate. In my opinion, it's not necessarily inconsistent to have some MPA characters split off and some not; after all, any "species" playable character in a spin-off doesn't have their own page. So I think splitting them out is fine. MarioComix (talk) 19:32, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * The only potential hangup I can see is Hulu, who despite looking like a Dancing Spear Guy is referred to as Bamboo dancer in Japanese. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:12, April 9, 2021 (EDT)
 * Hulu is definitely a messy situation. We can't quite assume they got the Japanese names wrong; however, if we're dedicating a page to Goomba (Super Paper Mario character) I think having a page for an English-named NPC is acceptable. After all, Hulu's Japanese name is technically different since it's not romanised in plural, whereas, say, Hammer Bro's "names in other languages" section indicates that it's always romanised as "Hammer Bros." MarioComix (talk) 22:02, April 9, 2021 (EDT)