MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/12



Splitting the Capsule article
SPLIT 14-0

There's something strange around here: The capsule from SSB and the capsule from Mario Party series are merged INTO ONE ARTICLE, but, THEY'RE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! I think we shoud split in into two articles: Orb, because it IS the Mario Party Capsule; and Capsule (SSB). Now you see, Orb is the redirect page, but this mustn't be a redirect; instead, the remaining article after the split will be an disambiguation of course. Still thinking to remain it so? There are reasons to split it:


 * 1) They look different (SSB capsules are looking like those medicine capsules (look at the Megavitamin), MP capsules and orbs are just... round capsules. You can even see what in a MP capsule/orb contains, never in a capsule).
 * 2) They ALSO work different, even because the game style differs (Orbs and MP capsules are placed on spaces, SSB capsules can be thrown anywhere).
 * 3) Effects are different TOO (SSB capsule: 1 o' the 8 chance it explodes, other seven will contain items, MP capsules and orbs will change the selected space in a Character Space, which effect will start when been stopped on).
 * 4) Color variations (The SSB capsule will always stay White/Red, the MP capsule/orb has a transperent part and a part which differs what for sort effect it has).

Have I proven truth now? Do you think so as I? Give your own opinion.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Arend}} Deadline: December 11, 2008, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - Per myself, of course
 * 2) - Per Arend.
 * 3) - The merging of two subjects who share a name but are different characters is something we should be combating per the results of the Star Rod proposal awhile back.
 * 4) - Per all
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) - Per Stumpers and Arend.
 * 8) - Per Arend, but they should be split in 3 pages, (Orb, Capsule (MP5) and Capsule (SSB))
 * 9) - Per all.
 * 10) - Per all. Why are two completely different things merged into on article?
 * 11) - Per all, especially our good old friend Logic.
 * 12) - Per all, especially Arend.
 * 13) - Per all!!
 * 14) Per all, mah boi!

Comments
To Tucayo: An Orb is just a different name for a Capsule, just as Toadstool is a different name for Peach, and we don't have an article for "Toadstool" and an article for "Peach." -- }}

Super Mario Amada Series
SPLIT 9-0

We currently have an article entitled Super Mario Amada Series that encompasses three works: Super Mario Momotaro, Super Mario Issunboshi, and Super Mario Snow White. Each was released in separate tapes and were not part of one grander three part serial, but were rather separate stories. Each was just shy of 20 minutes long, rivaling each full episode of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! in length. Now, take into account that each of those episodes currently has two articles: one for the live-action segment and one for the cartoon. Thus, the three subjects are certainly notable enough for their own articles. I should note, only Issunboshi is long enough as it stands not to be considered a stub, but each video's article could easily be made as long. Thus, I propose we split the article into: Super Mario Momotaro, Super Mario Issunboshi, and Super Mario Snow White.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Stumpers}} Deadline: December 12, 2008, 20:00

Support

 * 1) - See my reasoning above.
 * 2) - They are part of a series of three individual cartoons, just as the Paper Mario series is made up of three individual games.
 * 3) Per all. These cartoons are all based on different fairly tale stories  and they are individual not the same, so these article should be spilt.
 * 4) - Per all. Not many people have watched the movies, but there's still enough information out there to make decent articles if we're willing to work at it.
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6) - Per all, every episode tells a different story.
 * 7) - Per Stumpers.
 * 8) Alex25 - Per all.
 * 9) - Per all. Lawl, I wrote that section! :3 The Issunboshi one. :P

Comments
As an aside, the name of the article is fan-made as far as I know: Amada is the name of the company that produced them and "Super Mario Amada" was a term used by TheMushroomKingdom.net. The intro to Momotaro calls itself, "Super Mario Momotaro." If this proposal does not pass, we still need to change the title of the article. }}

Split Adventure Mode Enemies (SSBM) and Subspace Army into individual articles
KEEP MERGED 4-6

This proposal would give individual enemies listed in each of theses their own pages, reversing this previous decision. I am proposing this for several reasons. First, according to Canonicity, there is no official canon, so we should not discriminate between different types of enemies in the greater Mario franchise. Additionally, the Importance Policy says there are no restrictions on the number of articles that can be made for each sub-series or cross-over series. Fifty detailed articles (including descriptions, attacks, behaviors, locations, etc.) is better than a sub-par list that limits our knowledge of what some users may see as vital subjects. We should not be prejudiced against different series connected to the main Mario series; they are all equal in the wiki, and some users may find such information valuable. Why should their way of consuming the greater Mario franchise be denied by the wiki? A few articles about fifty or so Smash Bros. enemies is not going to overwhelm the wiki with Smash Bros. content, seeing that there is probably over a thousand Mario enemy articles, enemies that might have less information than the Smash Bros. enemies could potentially have. Plus we still have articles on all the Smash Bros. stages and items, so why not enemies? In the end all these enemies will be separated into their Smash Bros. related categories, so such information will still be separated from the main group of Mario enemies.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Son of Suns}} Deadline: December 13, 2008, 20:00

Support

 * 1) - Because I believe in a Mario Wiki that is open to various ways of appreciating the greater Mario franchise.
 * 2) - Per SoS.
 * 3) - Though there was a proposal to merge the Adventure mode enemies in one, I'm on this side.
 * 4) Per SoS.

Oppose

 * 1) - This is a Wiki designed for the Mario universe.  Enemies that have no involvement in the Mario universe should not have separate articles (ReDeads, Octoroks, Like Likes, Topis, Polar Bears, Subspace Army).  I know this, because I once did an article for a minor non-Mario character (Panther Caroso and Leon Powalski to name a few) and got in trouble for doing it.  If this were the Smash Wiki however, THEN it would be a different story.
 * 2) - I've visited many other videogame wikis, and I noticed one thing.  Super Mario Wiki goes into more depth over cross-overs than any other videogame wiki I know.  For example, the Zelda wiki does not have an article for Mario even though he appeared in all three Smash Bros. Games with Link, Nintendo Monopoly with Link, a cameo appearance with Link in Captain Rainbow, and had a few cameo appearances in Zelda games. Besides, if one wanted to look up Smash brothers enemies, wouldn't it make more sense to look it up on the smashwiki?
 * 3) - Per all. We are a Mario Wiki, and we need to show more focus on the Mario series than any other. Covering all things in the Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario series are perfectly fine because they are extremely closely tied with the Mario series, but the Super Smash Bros. series is more of a Nintendo series than it is an actual Mario series. Certain Mario aspects may be found within the Super Smash Bros., sure, but those games aren't anymore tied with the Mario series than than they are with the Metal Gear, Metroid, and Zelda series.
 * 4) Per all. We arn't the Smash Bros wiki or Nintendopedia.
 * 5) - Per all. There may not be an official canon surrounding the games, but there is a difference between Mario (et al.) titles and Super Smash Bros. I'm also worried this might open the floodgate to many MORE articles about outer-series aspects found in SSB. There's still so much that needs to be done about our Mario content, and we should focus on that before getting side-tracked with SSB stuff.
 * 6) - Per all. I am aware I was the one who fought for making individual articles on SSB content in the past, but now I realize that we were putting TOO MUCH focus on the SSB series. Special moves are definitely more important than individual SSB-restricted enemies, but they were still merged with their respective character articles. So, yeah, I think SSB-restricted enemies should all be merged into one article so we don't become too much of a Mario (featuring Super Smash Bros.) Wiki.

Comments
Haven't there already been heaps of discussions about this very topic?
 * Yes, there were. There was a proposal for merging the enemies, which passed.
 * This proposal would reverse that decision. --
 * So that previous Proposal is now being undone - making the first one pointless... ooooooookay then... 0_o
 * Wikis are about change. We don't always get things right the first time around. --
 * SoS is right. Our main Page was also different first, and we had an older logo.
 * It's like everything is a paradoxical enigma... my computer chip brain hurts. Reversing a decision does not bring back wasted time, I'm just saying that. I have nothing against the Proposal, in case that's what you thought.
 * Might I suggest adding a link to the SmashWiki on those pages if this proposal doesn't pass? We'd be linking to another wiki that supplies a lot of information on the SSB series, which would help people realize that we should focus more on the Mario series. ...But, again, this is just a suggestion in case the proposal doesn't pass.
 * Good idea. External linking is always a good move, especially when it's to our fellow Wikis (who knows, maybe they'll even return the favour some day). -


 * If we really wanted to support our "fellow" wikis, we would move all our content to Wikia. Wikia would allow easy access between different wikis on Mario series, the Donkey Kong series and Smash Bros.  However, since we are an independent wiki, we have the option of building an inclusive community that encompasses a wide variety of series around a central concept (in our case Mario).  Smash Bros. is one part of this greater concept, and it doesn't serve the needs of our users to direct them to wikis not about Mario when we could easily support such content here. --

We have content about Itadaki Street DS, Captain Rainbow, and Doki Doki Panic all games very loosely tied to the Mario series. However we cover them all though Mario has much stronger ties to Super Smash Bros. than any of these games. Without Mario, we would not have Super Smash Bros. He is the core franchise of the series, and we are doing a great disservice to the Mario series, Nintendo, and this wiki by limiting article creation of Smash Bros. subjects. Again, users not interested in Smash Bros. do not have to read or edit these articles, and they will always be in their strict categories. You don't have to accept Smash Bros. as "canonical." However, since Nintendo has not stated what is canonical and what is not, many users may feel that Smash Bros. is strongly tied to Mario, and this connection becomes an important part of engagement with both series. By giving importance to one type of enemy over another, we are disempowering users and potential new writers. I strongly believe allowing users to work on more Super Smash Bros. articles is of greater benefit to the Mario Wiki and the content of the main Mario articles. It is not becoming "side-tracked" as Walkazo describes it, but invites users with special knowledge into the wiki, knowledge they can apply to both Smash Bros. articles and Mario articles. While someone's main interests may be in Smash Bros., they may also be big fans of the Mario series. However, if we say Smash Bros. is unimportant, then these writers will be less inclined to work on our wiki, both Smash Bros. and Mario content. On the other hand, if we open up our wiki to others, we can create an even better database of Mario knowledge, and foster a more inclusive Mario community. --
 * SSB already has more coverage than those three crossovers. We only have articles on Captain Rainbow and Doki Doki Panic themselves, not on the non-Mario aspects they include (as far as I've found). As for Itadaki Street DS, aside from the game's article we have pages about the playable characters (same as SSB), other characters that affect gameplay (pretty much the equivalent of Assist Trophies), and nothing more. As for "disempowering" people, there's nothing stopping them from writing nice big sections in a greater article about the non-Mario enemies. We're not saying SSB is unimportant, we're saying it's less important than Mario, and seeing as we're the Super Mario Wiki, that's not an unreasonable judgement-call. And if someone does get offended by that, do we really want them (and their stinky attitude) in our community? -


 * We have already established that Super Smash Bros. is of "lesser importance" than Mario according to the Importance Policy, but the importance policy also states that this not mean that the number of articles for particular series can be regulated. And I am very offended by your last comment, as it infers that some people are lesser, that they have a "stinky attitude," just because they want more recognition for a particular part of the greater Mario series (Super Smash Bros. is even included in the chronological overview of our Mario (series) article).  We should be open to lots of different people with different views, not labelling them and judging them.  We should be an accepting community, not a close-minded one that leaves out others because it does not match what "we" really want (whoever this supposedly unified "we" is anyways). What is important to the "Mario" series is not clear-cut, but a relative concept.  Indeed Subspace Emissary enemies may be more connected to Mario then the enemies of other related series, including the Donkey Kong and Wario series.  Subspace Emissary enemies actually worked alongside Bowser, and his Goombas and Koopas - that is they are explicitly connected to the main antagonist of the Mario series.  Many enemies from the Donkey Kong series and Wario series can't make a similar claim.  Mario and Smash Bros. are extremely interconnected.  Even the name Super Smash Bros. is directly related to Super Mario Bros.  These connections are very important, and I believe this wiki should not be effacing such connections. --
 * Just for information: The name Super Smash Bros. was made up for the western market, the original name only shares the word "Bros." (in tons of franchise names) with Super Mario Bros. (Dairantō Smash Brothers, literally "Great Melee Smash Brothers", is the franchise's Japanese name). Sorry for nitpicking, I couldn't resist. ;-) --Grandy02 12:44, 13 December 2008 (EST)


 * Haha, no problem. Nitpicking is a good thing!  Regardless, I still think the two series are extremely interconnected.  Oh, and Grandy02, you may have noticed that I changed the Adventure Mode Enemies article to not be a simple list of trophy information.  I think Stumpers said in an earlier proposal about merging SSB special moves that we can't lose content through the merge.  So I remerged that "lost" content back into the Adventure Mode Enemies article.  At the very least, regardless if we are divided on whether SSB elements should have individual articles or not, the content of the series should not be compromised.  As individual articles or as one larger merged article, we should provide as much detailed content as possible for all related subjects. =) --

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The 'Shroom
KEEP IT 3-15

This wouldn't be a full "removal" per say, that is – we wouldn't delete all of the pages, but maybe put a cascading protection on all of them, so it would end up being a joyful anachronism...

But let's be honest. Only 1/9 articles besides Director-related stuff was put in on time yesterday. Ever since I quit Directors don't do what they're supposed to do – recruit new writers, as the current director would say, AGGRESSIVELY, and not firing the ones that can't meet a deadline. All of this has led to declined activity the past two months, making it a shame to the sidebar. It's time to make it a thing of the past.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Wayoshi}} Deadline: 14 December, 15:00

Bai-Bai Nao

 * 1) – All in all...there is little need, demand or even care for the entire project now.
 * 2) Per Wayoshi. Failed project is failed.
 * 3) Per all.

Me No Wantz It 2 Go

 * 1) - I wasn't the greatest or more authoritative director YESH YESH YESH, but that's no excuse to penalize possible competent directors or the users who posted their sections in timely manner. Beside, considering comments you left some times ago, I am fairly sure you're only doing this to troll me.
 * 2) - Per Blitz.
 * 3) Per all. Long live The 'Shroom!!! They're still users that read and also work on The 'Shroom.
 * 4) - If it isn't hurting anyone, why should the 'Shroom end? Besides, life and other Wiki needs should come before the Shroom, so I think you can excuse the majority of my fellow writers who, like me, have finals coming up or in process.  I know that's why my Travel Guide isn't in (not to mention the Mama Mario article)
 * 5) - Per my comment below.
 * 6) - Per my comment below.
 * 7) - All our hard work gone? That's depressing, even for an emo like me :_: Also read my comment below.
 * 8) - Per Stooben's comment below.
 * 9) - Per all. Just because people hand it in late, doesn't mean we have to shut down the whole project. (Amost) Everyone gets it in at some point, and having it in late is better than not having it in at all.
 * 10) - Per Luigi001
 * 11) - Per Blitzwing. The 'Shroom is pretty important at times.
 * 12) - Per Blitz and Stooben's commentary
 * 13) - Per all.
 * 14) - I've never been late for the shroom (there was an error regrarding the forum, but still) we try our hardest, mbut we do have other things to do in our lives. As long as I still get my warning, I think the Shroom will be fine.
 * 15) - Why would we do this? It's a disgrace to people who put lots of work into it!

Comments
So, this proposal is just about firing the people who cannot meet the deadline, and protecting all the 'Shroom pages? Nvm, Wayo told me that we will stop creating issues and protect the old ones. So the 'Shroom will go down. I need some time to think my vote over :/ -
 * Right – I simply mentioned that the failure to fire incompetent writers led to this proposal. 12:49, 7 December 2008 (EST)
 * Wut!! Firing all the people who cannot meet the deadline but what if they're just an few hours late or a day late. Wut!!!! Closing down Teh 'Shroom but...

I'd like to point out that most sections weren't late yesterday: It was my own failure to update the page in a timely manner, which I apologize for.

Also, I must that making this proposal during the elector direction is the best/worst fraking lack of timing I ever saw. --Blitzwing 12:57, 7 December 2008 (EST)

A) I've been thinking about this for awhile, so this isn't a personal attack or any c-rap like that. B) There's no point to give a new director a chance, because the pieces are now all too disjointed. 13:09, 7 December 2008 (EST)
 * ...I don't really see the point in doing this. The 'Shroom was made as a community activity for any willing users to participate in. If users don't send in their sections, they get fired – unless, of course, they have a good reason for not sending it in. So maybe all of the sections aren't getting sent in on time, or even at all. That's not entirely the Director's fault; a large part of the blame should go to that section's writer, (unless, like I said, they have a good reason for NOT sending in their section(s).) I for one, have always sent in my sections on time, except for when I was on hiatus. Why is this? Because I think that The 'Shroom is a vital part in bringing the community together. I make my sections unique to make the readers feel more welcomed to other parts of the paper. If we have users that don't send in their sections without a good reason, then they need to be replaced by more responsible users. Sometimes, life gets in the way of things: You have to remember, almost all members of The 'Shroom are kids, so they have to worry about school, homework, chores, they could be grounded, they have friends, whatever. Life gets in the way, and that's understandable. If it's something as simple as "I didn't feel up to doing it this month", then they aren't an extremely responsible party. Getting rid of The 'Shroom will likely make a huge dent in the community of this site. While encyclopedic efforts are our number-one priority on this site, (no doubt), we wouldn't have an encyclopedia if it weren't for our members. And if our members didn't communicate between each other, or see what one another is capable of, then our encyclopedic intake would drop dramatically. The effort one puts in his or her section can also be looked at for what they could do as a Sysop. If their sections are neatly-written, are sent in on time (or a little late with good reason), and they show a good amount of responsibility, that can be looked at as a sort of key to what they could do as a Sysop – of course, they would have to follow the other guidelines. Nonetheless, The 'Shroom is a great part of this site, and it makes it really unique from all other wikis out there...especially all other Mario Wikis. Let a new director have a chance; maybe things will clear up a little more. IMO, The 'Shroom could be in a lot worse place than it is now. -- 15:43, 7 December 2008 (EST)
 * St00by made a lot of good points, but I see your point too Wayoshi. Sure, the Shroom's popularity and amount of coverage has been declining, but rather than shut it down completely I just think that a few major changes have to be made. First of all, every writer that has been tardy with their articles repeatedly, which nowadays is just about everyone, should be replaced. And we're also having a new director election at present, and a new director could obviously help with the release enforcement problems you mentioned. So I think a new director, new writers, and a redesigned community newspaper can effectively restore the 'Shrooms popularity. After all, Mariowiki is doing nothing but grow, so if we can restore the newspaper to its former glory it will be twice as popular as it ever was. Definitely worth keeping it around for a while. 23:37, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Question: Which section was the only one put in on time yesterday? Was it mine? Because I put it in myself as Blitzwing hadn't got round to it yet... Also, if we improve it then surely more readers will be interested... won't they?

InfectedShroom: I do read The 'Shroom.

He's not the only one. Sheese appreciate the facts that some users read The 'Shroom. (And maybe guest now and then read The 'Shroom)

I read it too. I would join if there were anything open, so there is still care.

The 'Shroom/Sign Up There are a few spots open.


 * Eh, fine. You all are right. I'll go all indifferent and remove my vote. :P

Answer:The 'Shroom/XXII/FTMV was the first thing added to this month's 'Shroom.
 * Thankyou for answering. Does that mine was the second section submitted!? Huh?
 * Nope. Yours wasn't turn in second. MarioWiki:The 'Shroom/XXII/Good Game, Bad Game was turn in second.

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Mario Cameos Outside of Mario Games Page
NO "CAMEOS" PAGE 1-8

I have recently been reading a lot of online stuff and watching a lot of television stuff. Also I have been playing some non Mario and non Nintendo games seeing Mario and other characters appearances. I think that we should make a page that states the cameos of all the Mario characters in Telivision and other Game Media. Please support me in this.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer Luigibros2 Deadline December 23, 2008, 17:00

Oppose

 * 1) - I oppose for a number of reasons. First, we already have those pages - References, Video game references, Television references, etc. Second, besides those references made by Nintendo, all others are unofficial, and unless they are extremely notable, we don't need to keep track of everything.  References made by other companies and fans are just as unofficial, and they either shouldn't be covered by this wiki or every piece of Mario fan work should also be included.
 * 2) - Per Son of Suns. I don't really think appearances outside of Nintendo franchises can necessarily be considered official, unless permission was given to that party by Nintendo.
 * 3) - Per Son of Suns.
 * 4) - I agree with Son of Suns - how would this be different from references.
 * 5) - Per SoS. We should only allow official stuff published by official people, if you know what i'm saying.
 * 6) - Per Son of Suns.
 * 7) - Per Son of Suns.
 * 8) Per all.

Comments
SOs not fan work there would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much I'm only talking about like the game apperances and T.V.-- 13:09, 16 December 2008 (EST)


 * But what's the difference between a reference in a piece of distributed fan work and a reference in a piece of distributed work made by a non-Nintendo company? Both are unofficial. --
 * The Difference is - You said it yourself - One of reference is in a "Distributed work made by another company", which is more relevant than a random newground flash. I swear this whole "not official guuurrrrrr" hysteria will ends with the Hotel Mario and Mario Bros. Special articles being delete since they're not made by Nintendo and thus are not official (AKA: Nebulously defined criteria used to exclude everything the one who used it doesn't like). -- 15:42, 16 December 2008 (EST)
 * I thought things were considered official (on this site) as long as they were licensed by Nintendo.


 * Exactly. The difference is those two games were authorized by Nintendo (I believe).  Work by fans and random references by whoever are not necessarily authorized.  Why is a work distributed by another company more relevant than a flash animation?  I'm sure more people know about Super Mario Bros. Z than the "Video Games" song by KJ-52. That piece of fan flash animation has a greater impact on how the Mario series is viewed than some random song by a band no one has heard of.  Plus Super Mario Bros. Z is copyrighted material to Alvin Earthworm and Nintendods Productions.  How is that different than any other company? Fan works are being leaved out of this wiki because they are not considered official, or "nebulously defined criteria used to exclude everything the one who used it doesn't like." --

The one that should go is Publications References, at least the cover part, i mean, its not relevant that Mario appeared in a cover, and we shouldnt be including all the covers Mario appears in, because Mario has appeared like in 100 covers in the Mexican Club Nintendo, and we are not going to include them all, are we?
 * Agree, also wondered about the cover references. There are countless magazine issues all over the world which had Mario on the cover. --Grandy02 09:53, 17 December 2008 (EST)

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Merge Arwing and Wolfen
KEEP SPLIT 0-5

Where do I begin with this one? First off, the Arwing and Wolfen aren't Mario related at all (or part of the sub-species). They should be removed all together. But I digress, it is part of the Super Smash Bros. games. However, the Wolfen is VERY obscure. It only barely appears as a platform in the Venom stage of Super Smash Bros. Melee (it is so obsceure that I thought it was just another Arwing). Therefore, I propose that the Wolfen should be put as a sub-article in the Arwing Article.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Jaffffey}} Deadline: December 23, 17:00

Oppose

 * 1) - First, you are ignoring the other functions of Wolfen.  They also shoot fighters in the Corneria stage and is part of Wolf's entrance. Second, even though you don't think they are different, to some users (like me) they are very different subjects and would not make sense to have one as the sub-section of another.  A Wolfen is not a type of Arwing, nor is an Arwing a type of Wolfen.  While Paragoomba would make sense merged as a section of the Goomba article, as they are related species, the same cannot be said for Arwings and Wolfens, as they are not related.
 * 2) - While I would support a motion to merge minor cross-over topics, such as both the Wolfen and Arwing, into series pages (so, "Subjects from Star Fox series" or something), I don't support the merging of specialized cases such as this proposal is advocating.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Correct me if i am wrong, but arn't arwings for  the Star Fox team and wolfens for the Star Wolf team? If so, they are two different "species" even if they look alike. Dooplis and duplighosts look alike and act alkie but they have different persinalitys. This is almost the same case in wolfen and arwing, as they are used by different people.
 * 5) - Per Stumpers.

Comments
"Not Related"? ... Well, they're two kind of spaceships that appears in the same series, they do the exact same thing and appears in the exact same places. Seems pretty related to me. --Blitzwing 17:03, 16 December 2008 (EST)


 * My point is you can't say one is the off-shoot of the other, so how can you merge them under one title (which you could do with all the Goomba sub-species and the Goomba article)? According to the official trophy descriptions, they are two different types of starship. --


 * List of Starships in Super Smash Brothers Brawl, which could draw in a few other articles as well. --

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