Talk:Electro-Koopa King

Perspective
Why is this written as a species article when it's an individual, recolored, enlarged, asleep example of the red variety? It should probably be rewritten as a character article. Do the Prima, Nintendo Power, or Shogakukan guides indicate it's actually a species? Because unless they do, there's no reason for this to be formatted this way. Particularly with the Japanese name indicating it's a "King" of sorts. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:52, 7 July 2018 (EDT)

Name
So, if it isn't named in-game, i guess it's in the Prima guide? -- 02:08, April 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * And besides the Prima guide, do any guide mention it at any point? -- 08:02, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's basic inference what the name is. Why do we need a citation needed? 18:46, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Because it's a specific entity and the JP guide distinguishes it with a boss-like name. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:03, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Versus Books calls it the "Giant Koopa" on page 70 and Prima Games calls it the "Huge Red Electrokoopa" on pages 21 and 96; BradyGames refers to it as the "Denki Nokonoko" and "Koopa" on pages 82 and 83, respectively, but those would seem to generic terms for any given Electro-Koopa, and Nintendo Power simply calls it "the turtle" on page 72. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:21, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't think we should really adopt Prima's name. I think this is a case where common sense beats a source. I'd go for Giant Koopa if we really have to use such source, but I like the older name of just Electro-Koopa with a green identifier more. 18:38, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Technically though, it is a huge version of the red ones....it's just not red itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm with BM on this. There is no reason an obviously green thing would be called red in a more credible source. Prima never ceases to amaze me with their baffling incompetence. 23:12, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Giant Koopa is taken as it's already an older name for Big Koopa Troopa, and the alternatives mean the title would have to use an identifier, which the current situation avoids (also, in my opinion, Prima's guide is the best one out of the four, and it wouldn't be the first time I'd say they have Nintendo Power beat, either). LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:22, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * Normally I'd agree with an anti-identifier mentality, but not when it requires that we use an outright misleading and confusing name. If we wanted to avoid an identifier that badly even just using the Japanese name would be an improvement. 23:36, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * But as Doc says, it's a huge version of the red ones in particular. If anything, the name is really too literal, though I think seeing the "Huge" in front of "Electrokoopa" should make it mostly self-explanatory which of the three types it's actually referring to. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:50, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's a huge, green version of the red one, sure, and you're correct that the name Prima takes is way too literal, though they miss the giant koopa in the room, the color. I say Huge Electrokoopa or Electrokoopa (green) are my best bets, and I really don't like the current one at all. 01:18, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * What exactly is the context of how the name is used? Is it like "Get past all the Red Electrokoopas to beat the Huge Red Electrokoopa on top?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:58, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * Good question. "Huge Red Electrokoopa" is used precisely twice: once as an all-caps header on page 21 among Bothersome Big Bosses in Characters and Enemies, and again in normal text on page 96's Boss Characters tab. The rest of the text varyingly describe it as a "giant Red Electrokoopa" (on page 21's description), "massive Red Electrokoopa" (on pages 101 and 103) and "large Red Electrokoopa" (on page 103). LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:45, June 25, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'll also add: the internal name for Huge Red Electrokoopa is "amiking", which is derived from "aminoko" (Red Electrokoopa) and not "dennoko" (Blue Electrokoopa). The Japanese name is "Dennokoking", but in this context, "Dennoko" appears to be a contraction of the Japanese name for either Electro-Koopa (Denkinokonoko). LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:21, July 6, 2019 (EDT)
 * Excuse me, but how in hell would Prima be incompetent for calling it a huge version of its parent species? I think you're overstepping some boundaries in here. It's a concise name, but is only a misnomer by saying that it is red, and it's clearly derived from the red ones. -- 04:22, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Congrats on stealing my comment aimed at you on the Bull's-Eye Bill talk. Is unamused.😒 Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:32, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Oops... I coincidentally said the same thing. -- 04:41, July 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, while its Japanese name is Den Noko King, its internal filename is "Amiking", which confirms it to be derived from the red ones. -- 13:32, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Doesn't even need that much for confirmation, anything beyond a 3-second glance can tell its model is identical to the red ones, but larger and shaded green. The only real difference is the unique behavior. I'm honestly surprised it has a unique file name, maybe originally it was intended to be more different. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:37, July 11, 2019 (EDT)

(indent restart) This is a green Electro-Koopa, yet we're calling it red. This is just ridiculous. Moving it back to Electro-Koopa (green) would be the best choice for simple clarity. 15:32, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, this is a stupid name. I have no idea what was going through their heads when they wrote this. Wouldn't Giant Koopa also work as a valid name? -- 17:25, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * Giant Koopa is one of Big Koopa Troopa's old names, so IDK how that'll work. "Huge Red Electrokoopa" is a clear case of a name not following common sense at all and is misleading at the same time, so let's move it already. 17:34, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * I must emphasize that this is an enlarged version of the red kind, and not the blue kind. I don't think the guides ever call it "Elecro-Koopa" specifically. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:55, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know that, but, and I cannot stress this enough, the Electro-Koopa is green. It may be a large variant of the red Electrokoopa, but it is green. The current name is misleading and makes no sense. I'd prefer a non-misleading identifier name over a misleading guide name. 09:41, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * If you really want to move Huge Red Electrokoopa to Electro-Koopa (green), then the consistent thing to do would also be to move Red Electrokoopa and Blue Electrokoopa to Electro-Koopa (red) and Electro-Koopa (blue), respectively. Move one of them, move all of them. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:35, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Problem is, those have sourced names that aren't disgustingly misleading. We had "Electro-Koopa (green)" next to "Blue Electrokoopa" and "Red Electrokoopa" for years and nobody took issue with that. If it's not broken, don't fix it. 15:55, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Never mind, they were called "Electro-Koopa (color)" for years. I'd be fine with moving them back, really. 15:58, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * The name is not misleading, though. It is not trying to say that the Huge Red Electrokoopa is red. It is just saying that it is a large version of the Red Electrokoopas, which it is, even if it is green. 16:06, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know it's a large Red Electrokoopa, but the name calls it red, when it is green . I'd go into more detail, but at this point I'm just repeating myself. 16:09, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * I know that. But the "red" in its name is not referring to its color, it is just referring to what enemy it is a larger version of. 16:13, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, Hootie the Blue Fish is clearly purple, but that didn't warrant any argument. Names can be misleading. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:12, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hootie's blue, the purple is just the lighting. Huge Red Electrokoopa can mean both "it's huge and red" and "it's a huge Red Electrokoopa". If a name is misleading, it should be changed. Readers of the article may be confused by the name. 17:47, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hootie is very much purple, if anything, the blue is the lighting o_O. There's no red light to make it look purple in its environment. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:27, August 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * The and  templates exist for a reason. If we want to, we can even make "Green Electrokoopa" and "Huge Green Electrokoopa" redirect, because as shown with recent proposals unoffical name redirect are fine if they help users find the article they need. Going for an identifier is not the way to go.  12:04, August 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * If the idea is to move this page back to Electro-Koopa (green), i (much like LinkTheLefty) vehemently disagree giving the encyclopedia an ounce of chance. -- 08:51, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * At this point, a proposal is probably needed. -- 08:53, August 19, 2019 (EDT)

Determine wether to rename this page or not
So here above, is the discussion. While the Prima guide calls it "Huge Red Electrokoopa" twice, the other times use generic descriptors not capitalized instead of "huge". While it is green, it refers to which Electro-Koopa it is a large variant of. The other guides call it "Giant Koopa", while the Nintendo Power guide incompetely does not properly name it and generically refers it as "turtle". The encyclopedia calls it "Electro-Koopa (green)", however, that's because of us, since it wasn't called as such anywhere, and it's Japanese name isn't Denki Nokonoko (midori) either. Depending on the consensus, i will vote.

Proposer:

Deadline: September, 5, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to September, 12, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 19, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 26, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Move back to Electro-Koopa (green)

 * 1) Most straightforward name of the bunch.
 * 2) Easy to understand. Makes more sense than anything else here.

Move to Giant Koopa (Electro-Koopa)

 * 1) From the start I thought this was the most reasonable option, with Big Koopa Troopas being the only thing in the way, but the identifier takes care of this problem. While Huge Red Electrokoopa technically makes sense as a name, I'm not at all a fan of how misleading it is at first glance and how confusing it is to get to the proper conclusion; "it's not an Electrokoopa that's big and red, it's a Red Electrokoopa that's big and green." I also see no reason to throw away the English names we have in favor of a Japanese one.
 * 2) Per Waluigi. "Huge Red Electro-Koopa" just doesn't make sense is misleading. I do think "Electro-Koopa (green)" or "Green Electro-Koopa" would be a better name, but that was conjectural and that darn encyclopedia just copied the name from us. This choice makes the most sense in my opinion.
 * 3) Per both.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Second choice.
 * 6) Per all, particularly OMF.

Move to Dennoko King

 * 1) Although it's not as straightforward as I'd prefer, this feels like a better option than "Giant Koopa (Electro-Koopa)".
 * 2) I don't really like either of the other names; this seems like the best option to me.
 * 3) Per all.

Do not move the page at all (Don't do anything)

 * 1) As I said before, the current name is still accurate, and while misleading, the  and  templates (at least the former, the latter may be merged depending on the results of that page's proposal which I support) exist to help with potentially misleading names. Plus, if we really want to evade confusion, we can create redirects such as "Green Electrokoopa" and the like, which is now acceptable considering recent proposals. In fact, the Giant Koopa name has a small amount of potential confusion with it not specifying that it is specifically an Electrokoopa, and the much more well known Giant Koopas could lead readers to think that this enemy could not possibly have the same name and thus would not even look at the page. Regardless, I don't want to sacrifice a unique name without an identifier for clarity when we can have clarity via other means, even if it being moved to Giant Koopa is not the end of this world. Electroopa (Green) is not an option I support at all though, we should never prioritize a conjectural name other official ones, unless said names are plagiarized (which Giant Koopa and Huge Red are not, but Elecrokoopa (Green) was actually stolen). Same with the Japanese name, we should go for good (not stolen or generic) English names over a name in another language.
 * 2) Every possible name is terrible, but this one's probably the least clunky, even if it has the red/green problem.
 * 3) Even if on the surface it seems inaccurate, it still is accurate in that the species itself is called "Red Electrokoopa" in English. Additionally, from what I can tell it was never identified simply as "Electro-Koopa" itself, making that title inaccurate from an official literature-standpoint. "Huge Red Electrokoopa" is not "inaccurate," per se, it's simply a misnomer, which happens plenty (Buzzy Beetle and the "sized" Boos from SMRPG for example), even in real-world species names (take the amount of species that have "-fish" or "-fly" in their names despite not being fish or flies). In fact, it's only a misnomer on the surface, because again, it is a huge version of the red ones, and is even defeated the same way.
 * 4) Per all. To expand on the clunkiness of the other names: Electro-Koopa can refer to any variant (which is partly why the disambiguation page has references) and the proposed identifier came from us, and Giant Koopa was also taken and the articles' "about" template already mentions the situation adequately; while Dennoko King doesn't have these problems, we should still maintain an effort to adhere to the "another language" template's phrasing "If an official name from an English source is found, the article should be moved to its appropriate title," despite recent exceptions. Also, I meant it when I wrote that Red Electrokoopa and Blue Electrokoopa should be moved if this does.
 * 5) Per all, my thoughts above, and especially LinkTheLefty. I also feel that the source priority exception proposal shows its flaws now, and should be overriden so that the English name takes priority.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Second choice.

Comments
@Niiue We're not just considering the names themselves, but also the sources for them. "Electro-Koopa (green)" was a conjectural name that the Distasteful Encyclopedia took from us. The other names are official, but are from different sources. 11:42, August 21, 2019 (EDT)

Why do the first two options use "Electro-Koopa" and not "Electrokoopa?" "Electrokoopa" is what the red and blue ones use. 14:43, August 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * From the looks of things, "Electro-Koopa" was the only spelling used when talking about the species as a whole. 14:47, August 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Now i understand that you should kill it during its sleep, despite the fact that it's called "King". -- 02:16, August 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Uh, ja? Did you make this proposal without knowing how it works? o_o Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:29, August 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * I did know about it, but i didn't know that it wouldn't not wake up until seeing a video. -- 04:53, August 29, 2019 (EDT)

Boss
So considering other bosses in the franchise have spent their entire battles asleep or otherwise unable to directly attack, "get through a challenging gauntlet and defeat the helpless boss by doing something trivial" is an actual boss type, and it is given the "king" name, singular focus in a level, and the goal is met when it is defeated, should we consider this too to be a boss? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:19, September 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * Under "Bothersome Big Bosses" on page 21 of the Prima guide: Piranha Plant in Generator, Petey the Piranha Plant, Gooper Blooper, Wiggler, El Piantissimo, Sand Bird, Mecha Bowser, Monty Mole, Great Sunflower, Huge Red Electrokoopa, Manta, King Boo, Eely-Mouth, Coin Fish, Shadow Mario, Bowser Jr., Bowser. It also says that "Some are nasty, a few are friendly, but all are large and imposing!" which is probably why the sunflower is listed. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:04, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * Wow, I'd say the Snoozas, Chomplets, and Chomp are better candidates than some of those (following the Piranha Flower train of thought). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:21, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * Bosses usually have their own cinematic and a special music that plays and special animations and whatnot when you defeat them. This is definitely more of an "elite" Electro-Koopa but I don't think it qualifies IMO as a boss, but whatever they say, I'll roll with it. 16:09, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't put much stock in that list if it considers a platform, a set of coins, and a friendly NPC "bosses". -- 16:46, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * Given that Prima's list of "bosses" is a total joke (the Great Sunflower, really?), I'm gonna say EKK is not a boss. "King" does not necessarily mean boss (see: Lakitu King and King Coin Coffer), and all it does is sleep. At least the Big Bully, which is barely a boss itself, actually fights back. You can't even compare EKK to Beef Cloud, since the gimmick of that fight is that he heals himself in real time while asleep and you have to counter that. No thought goes into "fighting" EKK, it's all about reaching him. 17:54, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * My vote goes to considering this a "notable enemy" rather than a boss, quite like with Squiddicus. 18:33, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * OK well since this convo decided to only move on while I was at work, I want to point out that the music and cinematic situation is the same as Monty Mole's. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:51, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
 * I'd be fine reconsidering Monty Mole's boss status too, honestly. (Although it does take three hits to defeat, not sure if that matters at all.) Although before we go any farther, are there any other sources that specifically label bosses besides the Prima guide? -- 12:22, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
 * I suppose Montinger Z could be considered the same manner of "strong target enemy" as Astro-Lanceur and Yoofoe, though that also calls into question half of what we have listed as bosses for Super Mario 64, which do have official basis, and will egg me into bringing up Clerk, Manager, and Director's treatment in-game as one-time generic enemies again. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:53, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
 * Just wanna point out Astro-Lanceurs are not "target enemies"; they're just treated like normal enemies. 11:16, October 2, 2022 (EDT)