MarioWiki:Proposals

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Remove "Koopa" and other name particles from Koopaling article titles
Starting with Mario Kart 8 on Wii U hitherto the time of this proposal, Mario games have exclusively referred to Koopalings using their first names: Larry, Ludwig, Wendy etc. These games include Paper Mario: Color Splash, Mario & Luigi games, Mario Kart Tour, Dr. Mario World, Super Smash Bros. games, and Mario & Sonic games (Rio 2016; Tokyo 2020).

The Koopaling article names on this wiki do not reflect this state of affairs: currently, they use the naming scheme established in old manuals, which is stylised by way of the word "Koopa" attached as a surname or nobiliary title of sorts. Said naming scheme has seen sparse use in more recent years, being specifically reserved to ancillary material such as the New Super Mario Bros. Wii Prima Guide, this video, and most likely more--I invite knowledgeable editors to expand this list for future reference. As dictated by the source priority policy, this material should not override what the games themselves put forward. In addition, the more concise versions of these characters' names would better serve readers and contributors alike.

Given my statement above, the object of this proposal is to simply change Koopaling articles, and most pages directly related to the individual characters, to display only their first name. The page List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa is excluded from the proposal's scope, as its title reflects the character's name used in the SMB3 cartoon. The following is a list of affected pages, with target titles in brackets:

I would also like us to hash out how to phrase the opening paragraphs in their character articles; namely, whether to list the short name or the full name first. For this, I'm splitting the support option into two possible directions:
 * 1) " Larry, referred to in full as Larry Koopa and known as Cheatsy Koopa in the cartoons, [...]"
 * 2) " Larry Koopa, or simply Larry, known as Cheatsy Koopa in the cartoons, [...]"

I suppose some editors may prefer the second direction, given that it's common practice in academic and academically-modeled resources to start out an article's text with the subject's full name, and not necessarily the best known version of the name.

Proposer: Deadline: September 25, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support (option 1)

 * 1) Preferred option. Can't wait to make it easier to type out the names of these roster-padding sons of bitches.
 * 2) Per con Carne's proposal :)
 * 3) Honestly, either wording works for me, but could be best to roll with their first names only to match article titles.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) After some thought, per all and per the support voters here.

Support (option 2)

 * 1) Second choice.

Oppose

 * 1) Per Mister Wu in the comments and the previous proposal over this. The names are still sometimes used in-game with recent examples, and this largely seems to stem from the extended names just not being used in Japan. (You could bring in the "it's closer to Japanese" argument, but I don't really like the idea of using that to decide which English names should be used.)
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time. These names are still used quite frequently and don't need to be changed.
 * 3) I would agree with not referring to them by the full names for games that don't use them at all, otherwise per all.
 * 4) If the full names had been completely out of use after the first appearance or so like Boo Diddly, I would have supported this. And then there's few Koopa characters like Kylie Koopa whose first name was used in her follow-up appearance. I don't know the reason for Smash Bros. fighters having articles under their full names if they have any, but when I see an example like Wolf and Wolf O'Donnell, using full names looks valid enough and better over identifiers (like this).
 * 5) Per Waluigi Time, the names are still used on occasion enough compared to Princess Peach Toadstool.
 * 6) Per waluigi time

Comments
I'd like to remind yet again that in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate the full names are all acknowledged - they also were acknowledged in the Wii U version of Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games that featured the Theme of Larry Koopa. Also, please, proposal votes based on personal hatred do no good to the wiki, especially since the only multi slot roster "padding" the Koopalings did since Mario Kart 8 and its Deluxe version was in the now defunct Dr. Mario World and in Mario Kart Tour (where it's pretty bold to compare it to the actual padding of the variants). They share the slot with Bowser Jr. in the Smash Bros. games and they are guests in the Mario & Sonic games, meaning that they only occupy one slot. --Mister Wu (talk) 15:31, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
 * Considering the tone of my statement of disdain and the fact that I added it at the tail end of a series of arguments made in good faith, I would say that it is very clearly meant to be taken as a joke. I have no strong attachments towards any video game characters, so your accusation that I'm using "hatred" as a thrust to my argument is not only insulting, but blown out of proportion. 19:10, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
 * Fine, I take that part back (although just so you know, fan votes have been a thing in the past, so be wary that some users did vote out of attachment to characters, meaning that jokes like this one can be misunderstood). In any case, sorry for the misunderstanding.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:14, September 19, 2022 (EDT)

I'd actually like to take this a bit further by questioning Peach and Daisy; as of right now their article names are "Princess Peach"/"Princess Daisy", but much like how very few, if any, modern games ever refer to the Koopalings by their full names, very few, if any games references Peach and Daisy by their titles in game. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Golf, Smash Bros, they all just refer to them as Peach and Daisy. And if the fact that it's a title has anything to do with it, why isn't Bowser's article named "King Bowser"? I'd wager we could probably move their articles to just Peach and Daisy for the same reasons.
 * Origami King actually does use "Princess Peach" quite a bit: for example, there's Olivia saying "My brother and Princess Peach must both be in there..." and Bowser says "Anyway, where's Princess Peach?", both in the endgame. 19:37, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
 * The "Princess" title is still widely in use, such as in TOK as Scrooge said and on the Play Nintendo site. It would seem that only roster-heavy spin-offs refer to them with only their personal names. 19:42, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
 * That example does help me see the difference in this situation, mainly cause I'm comparing a title to a full name. I guess it makes sense that Peach and Daisy use their princess title cause it's a title. And it makes sense that the Koopalings don't go by their full names often cause that would literally be like going up to your best friend and using their full name just to refer to them. So from a realistic standpoint, it makes sense that games like Paper Jam or Color Splash don't just have everyone referring to them by their full names in dialogue like they would when referring to Peach as "Princess Peach" (I guess it's also worth mentioning that in Color Splash, Peach's introduction does use her full title while the Koopalings don't use their full names.) That being said, using spin-offs like Mario Kart might not be the best examples, since most characters go by their standard names anyway.

@Opposition: The amount of media that refers to the Koopalings using only their first name (including, as mentioned in the proposal, almost every single game they appeared in during the last decade) far surpasses the number of instances where their full name is used. Participants to the previous proposal brought up isolated, relatively minor instances of the Koopalings' full names being used, particularly in merchandise and print media, and treated them as top-priority sources despite going counter to what the naming policy says. In the spirit of hopefully convincing people that it's misguided to do so, I raise another piece of merch, the Super Mario Trading Card Collection, released in April 2022 (so pretty recent), which respects the naming model used in games. Shouldn't it similarly be taken into consideration, and be measured against a random Larry Koopa toy and a Monopoly set? Because it's clear that merchandise releases are not consistent among themselves in the least, so why not turn to what the games already very clearly establish? 19:10, September 18, 2022 (EDT)
 * The thing is, they're not contradictory (or even different, technically) names, and it's not even really an inconsistency. Sometimes they use the full name, other times they use a shortened version. I don't see any harm in using the full one if it's still in use. -- 19:51, September 18, 2022 (EDT)

@Opposition: I'm challenging someone to explain why "the names are occasionally used" (in things like Smash Bros. and merchandise no less, which as I've demonstrated above aren't even consistent with themselves) is being so strongly bandied around as an argument against designating the names that are put front and center in most appearances of these characters to their wiki articles. So far, zero proper rationale has been given for the former direction in either of the three proposals that have concerned this matter, other than a couple of arguments that can be best defined as mental gymnastics. Nobody is arguing that we should get rid of the names altogether, just that using them in such a representative fashion isn't the proper way to go--and I've already proposed two methods to handle their full names in their lead, because, much like LinkTheLefty has previously stated, these names are significant enough to deserve a mention as such. That doesn't mean Squirps is a contender for a move to "Prince Squirp Korogaline Squirpina" though. 10:30, September 21, 2022 (EDT)

Merging non-Mario Smash Bros. series bosses and the remaining enemies. Round 3!
Good evening!

I think this is going to be my last Smash Bros. proposal, see the other two here and also [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Merging_Smash_Bros._objects:_Round_2! here too].

The Super Smash Bros. series has had several bosses and enemies. Most enemies have already been merged a long time ago, however, some still remain and should probably be merged as well. I also propose to merge bosses that have nothing to do with Mario (Giga Bowser and Giant Donkey Kong (the page is yet to be recreated at the time of writing this per another proposal) will be untouched). It was also previously established that cameo appearances do not justify keeping a page. Some bosses like Dracula appeared in Captain N, but it's a guest appearance, so it doesn't count. Also some bosses have quite a bit of information, but I did check how it'd look as one page and it looks alright.

As always, if I made a mistake or you want something removed/changed/added from/in this list, leave a comment and I'll change this proposal accordingly. Also feel free to comment asking for a new option to be added.

List O
The following bosses will be merged into a collective article:
 * Duon
 * Marx
 * Dracula
 * Ganon
 * Crazy Hand
 * Dharkon
 * Rathalos
 * Galleom
 * Master Hand
 * Galeem
 * Rayquaza
 * Porky Statue
 * Porky
 * Tabuu
 * Master Core

Non-bosses:


 * Fighting Polygons - merge with Battlefield
 * Fighting Alloy Team - merge with Battlefield
 * Fighting Wire Frames - merge with Battlefield
 * Fighting Mii Team - merge with Mii; see comments
 * Shadow Bug - merge with the list of objects; see comments
 * [Removed per comments] False Character was removed from this list per

Proposer: Deadline: September 21, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge all

 * 1) Let's see how this one goes.
 * 2) i fail to see why not
 * 3) Yes, please.
 * 4) Personally, I don't think these characters are any more relevant than the explosives you can pick up and chock at various characters.
 * 5) Bosses are stuck to basically side-modes of these games. They have less of a presence to Smash Bros. than the several items.
 * 6) The bosses here don't really have a strong enough connection to Mario to warrant articles here.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) This proposal already called for the merging of several bosses to begin with, even though nobody actually implemented it (particularly non-final Subspace Emissary bosses; the proposal was made several months before Ultimate came out). Given that and my general stance on Smash coverage, per proposal.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all.

Merge all except Crazy Hand, Dharkon, Master Hand, Master Core, Galeem, Tabuu

 * 1) Second choice.
 * 2) This is my second choice, as I can understand keeping these bosses due to them having a larger role than the other ones. Considering a previous proposal already called for the removal of some of the other mentioned articles, I definitely think they should be merged.  Edit: I have decided that this is actually my main choice, as I do see value in keeping articles on these specific bosses.
 * 3) - I can accept these terms.
 * 4) - Some people think these are just regular bosses, but hear me out. Brawl and Ultimate have plots involving the bosses, and they play a role with the characters, including the Mario characters in it. For instance, we cover the snow spirits from Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games. That game is also a crossover (though, unlike Smash, the Mario elements are much more robust).  It has a story mode, and the snow spirits are characters that tie the plot together. In The Subspace Emissary, Tabuu is the one who is pulling the strings on everything in the story, and Master Hand is a secondary character in the whole thing. I feel the other ones (like Porky and the two Smash original accomplices) are a bit too minor. They don't even have fleshed-out personalities or backstories in the game. The World of Light's two main villains are indeed the ones who control the story. We know their essence as well, unlike Dracula, who only appears as a boss and has no other clear role in the story. I'm against fully merging these bosses as it seems too general to ignore the more critical boss fights. At that point, we are treating the Smash games like a guest appearance. I am also against keeping every single article, though, as not every Smash boss is vital, as I mentioned earlier.
 * 5) Second Choice. Like Doc I can accept these terms. This is a good compromise that keeps the pages for the story-relevant characters. Edit: Like TheFlameChomp I have decided to make this my first choice after further thinking about it.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) After some thought, I realize I can accept these terms as well.
 * 8) Per Wikiboy10. They are characters, not enemies, and have enough impact on the story and, more importantly, the Mario characters in it to warrant full articles.
 * 9) Per all, especially TheFlameChomp and WikiBoy10. These articles are notable enough to be separated from each other.
 * 10) Per all.

No change

 * 1) - Personally, I feel this is taking it a bit too far. The bosses are treated as major cast members, and with cases like Rathalos where it has every role except playable, it's just spreading one thing onto different lists.
 * 2) Per Doc and Waluigi Time's comment. I'm okay with merging the Fighting Teams to Battlefield/Miis, but I kinda feel the bosses are okay on their own.
 * 3) Per Doc; on these list things, I feel like I'm convinced that plot-relevant character is where I draw the line(for now at least, might make my own proposal if I change my mind). Also because the precedence of this passing would mean a list page of all the playable characters would be next and that would look even more awkward, but that's an issue for another time.

Comment
Why is Fighting Mii Team being merged with the list of Smash Run enemies? Yes, they appeared in Smash Run, but they also appeared in Classic Mode and in their own game mode in Smash Wii U. Wouldn't it make more sense to merge them with the Mii article if anything? 16:37, September 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * Good point. Done Spectrogram (talk) 16:54, September 14, 2022 (EDT)

I think false characters should be left alone since three of them are Mario-relevant. -- 17:32, September 14, 2022 (EDT)

Actually I'd be fine with merging the non-bosses specifically for consistency with everything else, I'm just iffy on the bosses. 20:13, September 14, 2022 (EDT)

Thing is, why are we putting more stock into these characters just because they are plot relevant or that they are characters? From strictly a gameplay standpoint, I'd argue that they are less relevant to Mario as a whole than the gameplay-altering items that all got merged into one article. In fact, you could argue that the stages are less plot relevant than the bosses and should get merged, but I'd argue against merging those in that I view them with secondary enough importance after playable characters. 20:13, September 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * How are the items that were merged in any way more relevant to Mario or let alone do more gameplay-wise than the bosses? The bosses all have like >= 5 different attacks on top of their plot relevance while all the items do only one thing whenever they are used. I don't see how something like the Franklin Badge is more Mario-relevant in any sense than the bosses of the series? 20:53, September 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * Items do various numbers of things when used. Bombs are single-use, battering items grant a new set of grounded attacks, Pokeballs have many things that can happen from them. Plot in Smash Bros tends to be relegated to side mode if not nonexistent. 21:42, September 14, 2022 (EDT)

I would like to add that I have no plans to make further Smash proposals, especially when it comes to fighters or regular stages. Fighters were already merged with their attacks. Spectrogram (talk) 00:58, September 15, 2022 (EDT)

Shadow Bug should have been merged with objects, since it's ultimately just a substance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:11, September 15, 2022 (EDT)
 * I'll edit it, if someone disagrees, leave a comment. Spectrogram (talk) 04:19, September 15, 2022 (EDT)

Could you include an option to not split Crazy Hand, Dharkon, Master Hand, Galeem, and Tabuu? I feel since this is a crossover game, I feel we should include the plot-relevant villains in these games. The other characters I didn't mention here that are Smash originals don't really play that significant of a role. Everything else I feel is just fine to split off since they are mostly just generic mooks. Wikiboy10 (talk) 14:55, September 15, 2022 (EDT)
 * I disagree, but I've included it as an option. I don't think there is any reason to keep them unmerged, they're honestly the same as other bosses. Spectrogram (talk) 15:03, September 15, 2022 (EDT)
 * What about Master Core? Shouldn't it be included in that second option too? 15:13, September 15, 2022 (EDT)

Merge Kings and Queens
When it comes to categories, we forbid using gender-based ones due to them being broad. Yet kings and queens (which cover male and female monarchs) are the exceptions right now. Princes and princesses also have this same problem, but I feel we might as well cover these first. Here are two ideas I proposed.

 Merge them into Royalty  Kings and queens are part of royalty in general, so merging them into this category could work. The only downside is that kings and queens are specific, which could go to the next option.

Merge both and create a new category: Monarchs This is probably the second best choice. However, I'm unfamiliar with the term and could be misusing it. After all, Princess Peach is considered a ruler over the Mushroom Kingdom despite not being a queen.

Proposer: Deadline: September 27, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge into Royalty

 * I'm currently unsure about the other option, ATM. Perhaps I'll be convinced once I see more votes.

Merge into Monarchs

 * 1) I see zero reason to merge them into royalty. These are very different categories.
 * 2) Per Spectrogram.

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.