MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/41

Block on wiki = block on forum
VETOED BY THE ADMINISTRATORS The wiki administration and forum administration operate independently of each other and have different rules which are not mutually applicable. A ban on the wiki does not equate to a ban on the forum unless the user has broken the rules on both venues and vice versa.

(not sure if this belongs in Changes or Miscellaneous; please move if necessary) Normally, when a user gets blocked on the wiki, nothing happens to their forum account if they have one. Now that most people have both wiki and forum accounts, it should be considered that if a user does something stupid that gets him/her blocked on the wiki, he/she might go straight to the forum and complain about it (which isn't allowed), or do the same thing he/she did on the wiki in the forum, so therefore maybe this policy should be introduced.

Proposer: Deadline: August 10, 2013, 23:59 GMT.

Ban on both only when permabanned on wiki

 * 1) Sounds fair to me.

Ban on both in all instances for same amount of time

 * 1) Per proposal.

Ban only on wiki (do nothing)

 * 1) I think it'd be better to go for a case-by-case standard for something like this. If the user was trolling the wiki, then sure a ban on the forum as well would probably be the best course of action seeing as they'll likely do the same on the forum. However, if it's something like adding false information repeatedly or using edit summaries in a non-constructive manner then I think it'd be pretty mean to bar them for all corners of the wiki.
 * 2) Per Yoshi876; if someone's not doing anything wrong on the forum they shouldn't be banned there for malicious wiki activity.

Comments
You forgot a "Do Nothing" section, which would probably be best as there are instances of people being blocked on forum and not on wiki. If the user gets themselves blocked on the wiki, but still acts in a gracious manner on the forums then I don't see why they should be banned there.
 * The "ban only on wiki" section is pretty much the "do nothing" section; sorry if that wasn't clear. 03:39, 3 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Okay, thanks :)
 * It would probably be better if there was something like "Ban if they were using excessive language on the wiki", because that's the only way I see it working. - 04:37, 3 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Or like I said, trolling, especially seeing as there is no rule against swearing on the forum so it'd be stupid to ban them because of that.
 * I meant excessive excessive swearing on the wiki. - 07:34, 3 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Still no rule against it on the forum, so it'd be pretty mean to ban them from that for it. Only way swearing would get banned from both is through flaming.
 * I guess I should of just said flaming. But the "Do nothing" still doesn't work, as it says "Only on Wiki", when they could of been banned from the forums. - 08:23, 3 August 2014 (EDT)

I think that kind of discussion should be left to the admins themselves. You should have PMed an admin telling him the idea, and left the final decision to them instead of jumping into an open proposal.-- 05:28, 3 August 2014 (EDT)

Allow the upload of voice clips
ALLOW 14-0

So, I am a bit busy, but I will spend more time in the wiki, as how it was...OK, so, I was thinking about uploading some (NOT A LOT!) of voice clips, I mean, voice clips for people hear and see the difference between voice actors. Example: Upload a Peach voice clip from SM64 and one from SMG.

My idea is have a small number of voice clips.


 * Voice clips may be with.no background GFX/SFX.

useful places to get voices: the sounds resource, the kittycorps meowmix forums, MFGG, youtube.com, ripping (use BrawlBox, SZS modifier, etc) anx trought glitches (MK8) and SSB3DS will have a voice tool like MP games.

Proposer: Deadline: August 26, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal
 * 2) Per proposal. It is a an awesome idea. It'll be convenient. For instance we could cover most of Jen Taylor's voice clips for Peach and Samantha Kelly's Peach voice clips.
 * 3) Yeah, I think it might be nice. It's not really that big a thing, but then again wynaut?
 * 4) Now that the proposal changed, I agree with this. Sound clips are a good idea to include.
 * 5) Mmmm, yeah, why not. It's a good idea to supplement those quote pages with some voices.
 * 6) Per 'Shroom64, now that the limit is gone, I agree. 7 in total was too low.
 * 7) Next time, overhaul the proposal and start again instead of changing it without anyone knowing. Per all.
 * 8) Per proposal. Though SZS Modifier CANNOT rip SFX as far as I'm concerned.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) We should do what we did with quotes. List a few in the article itself, and link to the main voice/sound clip page.
 * 13) That's actually a great addition, and will benefit the change of voice actors during the years.
 * 14) Per all.

Comments
@Nineelevndo, I understand your oppose...or the major part it. If ripping is hard, it isn't mybproblem: who want to rip, rip. Who doesn't...doesn't rip. Also, most of them can be downloaded anywhere, you just need to credit the ripper. Also, I said a dmall amount because of PC lags. Got it? ;)
 * If we aren't going to do much of it, then I don't see a point in a major change at all if it isn't going to be actively used. - 18:08, 19 August 2014 (EDT)
 * I understand. Maybe upload a few voice clips from alot of games should be better?
 * Given the similarity and sometimes out right sharing of sound resources within a given console generation, it'd suggest considering making one long clip per either system or voice actor that includes many/all samples we have. That is, "Mario's Voice, N64" would be the track name with every voice sample from the start of the N64 era to the end, or "Charles Martinet, 1995 - 2000" with same. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 18:46, 19 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Uh that's not a good idea. Mario Kart Wii uses about 100 unique voice clips per character, we're not going to document all of them. Just document one per game, that's the best suited for the character. Ninelevendo, ripping voices is easy depending on the system. For Wii, all you need is BrawlBox and a clean .brsar from an .iso, and you can extract voices from sorts of games (Super Sluggers, Mario Party 8, Mario Kart Wii, Super Smash Bros. Brawl). 22:32, 20 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Too be honest, I was going to further suggest that the entire project be moved to the Mario Wiki Youtube account to save on storage space and to prevent us from having crazy long resource articles. But whatever gets the job done. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 04:48, 22 August 2014 (EDT)

Just so you now, there's already a class of subpages for sound clips: "List of X media" pages (like this). Right now, it's only for games and whatnot, but I suppose if enough sound clips of a character are amassed, a subpage could be used for that. However I doubt that would ever be necessary, and it's not very ideal either. Uploading sound clips of voicework in of itself isn't a bad idea, tho: just be choosy about what's worth including. -
 * OK!

It may be nice to have voice clips, thing is, for all the Mario games that will come, the maximum of 7 is too low. I don't know anything on converting and stuff, but it could be nice to have them as .ogg files, just as musics. This way we could have, just like for the games page, a "List of Mario GFXs" and/or "List of GFXs from Super Mario 64". By the way, another reason for not supporting in Ninelevendo's. Why putting so effort for a such difficult thing to do when not so much people will hear it? But yes, I know that GFXs put a variety at the game and are nice to hear with music. P.S. I found a video glitch of MK8 where the music goes off and all the characters voices can be hearded, the ones when you select it. The link is www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJH3oTDwbE. Hope I helped you if the proposal pass :)
 * I would support if it was just "let voice file be uploaded", however, a subpage and limit makes lets this proposal down. - 02:25, 20 August 2014 (EDT)
 * In fact, it would be nice to have them, but per Ninelevendo, I'm neutral. Opposing would mean no clips at all.

The majority of the users on this Wiki are on either Windows XP, Vista and 7 or Mac OS X. I'd see a lag if they were on something older let's say like Windows 2000 or Windows Me, 98 and 95 but that's very unlikely since barely anyone uses Windows 2000 or Windows 9X.I'd see that some people would receive a lag but that is if they were using an old piece of shit Windows 2000,9X or NT 4.0 PC.If someone were using Windows 2000 then this site would look all garbled up and shit like that though the chance is very unlikely for someone to use such older outdated and abandoned OSes.
 * What has the majority of users using according to some random survey that you made up got to do with why we should allow voice clips that deserve a separate page? And Tsunami, opposing wouldn't mean that, it just means that it won't happen in the same detail given as the proposal states. I'm all for letting voice clips in, but a separate page, I'm not. -  07:48, 20 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, the title says "Allow the upload of voice clips"... I thinked that support means can upload and oppose means can't upload. I probabily get it wrong.
 * The title states that, but the rules in the actual proposal say some things that I wouldn't agree with. -
 * @Ninelevendo and 'Shroom 64, What I mean by my point is that if someone were to be using an older PC with an outdated abandonware OS like say Windows 2000 or NT 4.0 and Windows 9X then it may be a problem since they could barely even browse the Wiki or have trouble with clip playback or something. Besides that will all depend on their internet connection and how shitty their PC is. This is barely the case since almost everyone uses a modern OS like Windows XP, Vista, 7 and 8 or Mac OS X versions 10.6 to 10.9 or any Linux distro. You see this lag thing would make perfect sense if someone were using Windows 2000, Me, 98 and NT 4.0 or 95. So is my point very clear. It think allowing voice clips on here wouldn't be a problem.
 * I agree, but the proposal states more than just allowing them. The idea of separate pages and a 2 second rule makes this proposal fail, but otherwise the idea behind it is great. - 08:34, 20 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, OK, aside from the fact that I didn't see your comments before I wrote my oppose, assuming they were there, I get your point there, and I guess it won't inconvenience most if not all of our viewers and users. But as Ninelevendo just said, subpages aren't a good idea still. Having maybe a few on the main pages like we do with various soundtracks seems better of an idea to me.
 * OK. If we just change the rules and just allow the upload (no subpages) at all?

I like this idea...but having entire pages for this? I don't agree. What I DO agree with is using a selected voice clip to color personality sections with characters, so you know what they sound like. I think one voice clip per character on average would be great detailing personality. 20:54, 20 August 2014 (EDT)
 * Makes sense. As for showing voices changing throughout the years, which also seems like a worthwhile reason to have them, I like Ghost Jam's suggestion of splicing many little clips together into a smaller number of more substantial clips that can all fit on the main page, once more avoiding the need for subpages. -
 * You know, I don't think it's too late to rewrite the proposal, since it's the third day. If you can, modify the rules to include the suggestions Baby Luigi and Walkazo put, remove the subpages and 2-sec limit, and then I'll move my vote.

Yeah, per Baby Luigi and Walkazo, but I think more than just one is better, like ~10 and also I guess they can be put in a place like for example: In Mario's article, in section "Media", have a subsection "Voice clips", or maybe a subsection to "Portrayals" or whatever and add several ogg files: "Tōru Furuya *insert years here*", "Lou Albano *also insert years here*", and so...-- 18:23, 25 August 2014 (EDT)

Create Separate Articles for Smash Fighters
DON'T CREATE 3-10

This is an idea I had, and it's to cut back on the more lengthy articles like Mario. The Smash section for him is cluttered with his moves, Solid Snake convo and Subscape Emissary role, and I feel like it's a little too much. The Smash Wiki has an article for Mario in each different Smash Bros., so I kind of had the idea we could create a Mario (SSB) article where we can go more in depth about just his Smash Bros. roles; moves, trophy, stickers etc.

This would apply to other Marioverse characters in Smash, and doing this would cut back on the length of these already massive articles. It also allows us to redirect the Smash Bros. section for the Koopalings to Main Article: Bowser Jr. (SSB) without having to go into depth about Ludwig's moveset on his own article.

I figure this would only apply to Marioverse characters, as it's not like Link's or Pikachu's article needs to be reduced in size.

Proposer: Deadline: September 24, 2014 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) It'd offer a much neater look to the Mario, Bowser, Peach articles. I'd say it's worth a try.
 * 2) It seems like a useful idea to save on space, and we already have things like gallery and quotes spun off into their own pages.
 * 3) that seems legit :/

Oppose

 * 1) Very pointless, they are the same thing.
 * 2) Most characters' sections aren't even that large, comparatively or otherwise. Besides, what about non-Marioverse characters who've appeared in other media, like Link or Kirby or Samus Aran? Where will you draw the line to say which articles deserves to be split and which don't?
 * 3) This sort of thing is best kept on Smashwiki, and by going into more smash related stuff some characters would have hardly any info on them because they only appear in a smash game. Creating one article for all four smash games also isn't that great of an idea, as all the different games would have their information cluttered and split, making it confusing for readers. Also, the name Mario (SSB) would be going against the rule of not using abbreviations.
 * 4) I don't understand why exactly the Smash Bros. series needs the split. The Codec part can probably be split from its main article, each special move can go further into detail in another article. There's no need to split off Smash Bros. Smash Wiki splits the articles because the wiki goes far into depth about character move properties, how effective the character is overall, and other technical stuff we don't cover. We cover the basic stuff, and that's not so much we need to split it.
 * 5) The Mario article is inevitably huge; but as Time Turner said, we have non-Mario articles like Link, R.O.B. and others that would be comparatively weird to have an unnecessary other article for SSB. But why does Ludwig (and the other Koopalings, I guess) have his own section? It is really Bowser Jr., right? Per all.
 * 6) I know Smash wiki does it, but hey, its still the same charecter and who cares if the article is huge!
 * 7) Per all. And I would like to remember we already have links to every SmashWiki page, so they can be checked. And why can't you go depth directly in the article?
 * 8) I agree that some of our more popular articles could stand a trim here or there, but I'm not sure splitting articles up into smaller articles is the way to go about it, especially considering the snowball effect it will create. If it's simply a matter of trying to shorten articles and save space, I would think cutting down the offending sections and truncating sentences when able (both of which are supposed to be standard editing practices) would be a more succinct way of doing that, and that's the method I favor.
 * 9) - The SSB clutter has always irked me to an extent, but it would be better to just move the Codec and Special Attacks sections to the "List of Profiles and Statistics" subpages that we've already created for the longer articles.
 * 10) Per all. Again.

Comments
@Tsunami We don't really cover the technical things as, for one, it would make the section really long, but most of the terms (such as "Edge-guarding") could be considered "fan-made names". Plus, we don't really cover things like Hitboxes largely because, well, we aren't Smashwiki, our policy is different to theirs. - 01:26, 18 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Okey dokey. Thanks a bunch for the clarement :) Since our policy is different, I then don't see the point of following their. Maybe, if ever Smash Bros. will become complex over years, I will support this.

@Randombob-omb4761: I take your point, but our inclusion policy has traditionally been interpreted as "more articles are better than less articles, if we can pull it off." -- Ghost Jam 22:05, 18 September 2014 (EDT)

About the special moves, couldn't we just go back to having separate articles for them? A lot of the reason behind the merge was to minimize Smash Bros. coverage, and there was also talk of stubs being created (which used to be a very scary word). The stub argument is tosh for a bunch of reasons, but the coverage of "minor" Smash Bros aspects is an interesting point that I've always wanted to discuss. We have several characters like stage-specific ones (Ultimate Chimera, Bulborb, the Great Bay turtle) merged, which is because of their small appearances. At the same time, we have SSB enemies like Mites and Like Likes that also have relatively small appearances but are still given articles because they act as full-fledged enemies. By that same token, the special moves are constantly used and being seen, and the wiki's certainly no stranger to giving articles to special moves. After all, giving them articles would clear up some of the section's clutter.

I've prattled on about a subject that I want to discuss with no real point other than that I want to discuss it. What exactly is and isn't "minor" to the point of not covering it is something that I always wanted to discuss. Anyone else wanna make sense of what I wrote and chime in with their own thoughts?


 * We used to have separate articles for every individual Smash Bros. move. Sometime during the release of Brawl, something happened that our policy changed, probably a proposal. I'm not exactly sure why though (guessing article lengths?) or if we could change our policy back. Thoughts?
 * We've overwritten larger polices that have lasted longer in the past. Besides, like Ghost Jam said, our policy has generally been in support of more articles if possible, and it's certainly possible in this case.
 * This, guys? 15:06, 20 September 2014 (EDT)
 * That's the same proposal I linked to in my second sentence.
 * I don't know, it looks like Paper Jorge overlooked your link. 15:18, 20 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, missed it.

Active rewards
DON'T HAVE 0-13

Well I was looking around the Pie for everyone joke proposal, and one of the comments said that a reward would be nice,just not pie.So it hit me why not have a rewards program. In witch active users get rewarded for being active, or editing the most or other things. The prizes witch would be given away buy the breuacrats and could be coustom userbok towers,a signiture makeover,and other little goodies.Some stuff would be easy while others chalanging tempting users to go above and beond. Proposer: (banned) Deadline: September 28, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Oppose

 * 1) Systems like these, besides being annoyingly tedious to manage if not automated and very easy to abuse if automated, always encourage making minor edits across a large amount of articles, rather than putting time effort into a few. They tend to be counterproductive simply because people care more about the rewards than what they're actually doing to get those rewards. Simply put, it's not in our best interests.
 * 2) As some say, intrinsic motivation is a far more powerful indication you want to aid wikis than extrinsic. I can totally see people abusing this system just for the reward and never contribute to the site again. Furthermore, isn't SEEING a page look awesome already rewarding in itself? I certainly felt great when I fixed up Miracle Book and made it featured, as well as Super Duel Mode, shouldn't that be a reward in itself? In the same way modding the game doesn't get you any rewards other than people loving you for what you have done, same should apply to this wiki. We should edit and not expect a thanks in return (though it IS appreciated, I've felt great when other editors complimented my hard work). A simple compliment can make another user's day already.
 * 3) Not only would the prizes or requirements be hard to work out, but it would lower the quality of work in the long run. Instead of people putting their back into fixing articles or adding things, they'll only do whatever is needed in order for them to claim their reward, then leave the project afterwards.
 * 4) Per all. This means I got reward because I talk a lot and do some minor stuff. If the work is big, acomplishmemt is enough (so per Baby Luigi).
 * 5) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 6) - Per Baby Luigi and Tsunami. Edit wikis because you want to, not because you want to be rewarded.
 * 7) Per all. This could be used as incentive for people to work, but too much incentive in my opinion. Honestly, using this system, I should have a reward for finally making Iggy Koopa a featured article, or maybe my and Tsunami's hard work to get Lakitu featured, but I wouldn't care. Signature makeovers are something already doable on one's own time, and custom userboxes are (aside from friend userboxes) already done. Just look at Tsunami for a whole ensemble of 'em. :) Really, others may not care about the wiki and only want the rewards, which is not at all good when our goal is to be the best Mario series wiki there is. As that is the case, we can't be flooded with users who just want rewards.
 * 8) Per Baby Luigi. Editing a wiki is not something to get rewarded for. I'm sure most people who take the wiki seriously edit and help out because they just enjoy doing so.
 * 9) Per all. We've actually attempted this in the past (very early years of the wiki). What we found is that it breeds contempt between users, encourages shoddy editing and ends with us finding someone to babysit the system to avoid abuse. In the end, it was all way more trouble than it was worth. Further comments below.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per everything.
 * 13) Per all.

Comments
Truth be told, we tried this more than twice and in various forms. First was an informal barnstar-type system where any users could award something of their choosing to another user they felt was deserving of a more robust thank you (some talk page archives for the oldest users still have a few of these left around, despite our deciding to mass delete them). This ended up creating arguments about who gave who what for what reason and then rivals handing out bad rewards ("You got the Garlic reward cause YOU STINK!" and other crap like that). This tried to evolve into a formal awards system that fell flat on it's face (partly due to left over hostility from the informal system, partly due to apprehension on part of most of the administrative team), which then became version one of the long removed Trouble Center (this one still bugs me, it had so much potential). Other methods have been discussed over the years, on all fronts. One might ask why these attempts keep falling through when larger wikis, such as and pretty much exclusively Wikipedia, don't seem to have this problem, or at least the problem is minor at best. I think it's because of the size of the communities in question. Wikipedia is pretty much a community of communities and, much like what happens in Vegas staying in Vegas, minor award based issues that pop up in various sub-communities are handled by those communities and maybe an ops if it's Friday and Jimbo has had a few. MarioWiki is a much smaller community and intensely more intimate when it comes to it's users. When Martha May Whovier next door gets a shinny new trinket fro her lawn, Betty Lou Who wants one too. But time has proven that we can't play nice about it, so let's just stick with what Walkazo and everyone else said above. -- Ghost Jam 14:46, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Even when wikis like this become much bigger that its current state, I'd still be against a rewards system of any kind. You still shouldn't expect to edit wikis to get a reward other than just being a help. People who donate or people who volunteer don't do it for a reward, they do it because it's the morally right thing to do and the reward you get isn't material, it's an intrinsic happiness when you did help out. Feeling that the wiki needs you is certainly a rewarding feeling, and I don't want any sort of rewards. It WOULD be nice, I would admit, to have a virtual image of my star in my user page but I can most certainly live without one just as well. Reputation and this good feeling you get when you help out is more of a better reward than a material one. 23:46, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * If we could get people over the hump, so to speak, this all might have worked out better. There is a certain allure to having a system in place so we can send lighthearted gifts and heartfelt thankyous to different users for different reasons. It shouldn't be the only reason editors edit, but it's ok for a certain level of adulation to be a reason for doing something, so long as it doesn't become the reason and that's where our community issues started (or it all went ignored, such as with Trouble Center version 2). I'll be honest, if I could ACTUALLY give ever one of our major editors a piece of pie or a T-shirt, I'd do it. But all I can really give is my thanks and support. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:05, 23 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Same here. I am doing a quite difficult and long thing because 1) It is important enough to be noted and 2) Since none did it, and I have some free time, why not? I also do thing for helping out and being rewarded by the nice look of the result, NOT for being recompensed (though Mario T-Shirts are always appreciated ;) . Why did I work to feature Lakitu? 1) It's my fav character, and I promised I would not let the nomination fail 2) Helping out to not make the nomination fail, since the article was in good shape. Aaaand... everything what I could say was already said by Baby Luigi. Speking of rewards, you can customize every template by copypasting and modifing the code. Points (just like reputation in some forums) could be an idea (and is the one that makes most sense), but this way the system would be too difficult to handle (still simpler of Pie for Everyone, how could one get pie if not American?). So, this is why the compliments are the best way to credit someone for their work, to feel like it's their own day (Baby Luigi's words). My day was Lakitu's Featuration.

@TripleK: You HAVE to add a reason there or else it will be removed 14:32, 26 September 2014 (EDT)

New Article
DON'T CREATE 2-8

I was reading New Super Mario Bros. Wii when it hit me. We should make an Article called New Super Mario Bros. (Series). I mean really, look how muuch installments we have in the series and new ones coming soon. Also, we have Mario & Luigi (series) article, a Mario Kart (series) article and a Mario Party (series) article. So why not we make one for the New Super Mario Bros. Series while it is a popular series. Also, it can provide editorial oppurtunities because millions play it.

Proposer: Deadline: September 30, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) I Support this Idea
 * 2) Per proposal. Why the heck not? I think it'd work pretty good.

Oppose

 * 1) - Pretty much agree with what Walkazo said below; the NSMB series is part of the main Super Mario series and should not be separated from the rest of the games just because the gameplay is different. With the sports series and the RPG series, they are separate from the main games, therefore being deserving of a separate article to list the games and details of the series. The main series page we have now is fine and works well.
 * 2) We're messing with the foundation of the organization of this wiki. This proposal opens up questions regarding other "subseries" as well, including Super Mario Land, Super Mario 3D "thing", Super Mario Galaxy, and other subseries like that. Your examples describe standalone series, and New Super Mario Bros. is NOT a standalone series; it's a subseries of the "mainstream" Mario platformers. If this proposal passes, we have to acknowledge the existence of this New Super Mario Bros. series, which means we have to reorganize the history sections of a whole lot of articles, reorganize the navigational templates, and other things. Consider, if the door to acknowledging Super Mario Land and Super Mario 3D "thing" is opened because of this proposal, that means further reorganization of the history sections. Call me a slippery-slope spouter, but the amount of supports already, I find kind of alarming, so I'm opposing immediately.
 * 3) The way our lists are currently set up (which, as Walkazo pointed out below, are a mess and in need of maintenance), this would require a little restructuring and will most definitely have a snowball effect on the rest of the series lists. There is also the matter of acknowledging NSMB as a serperat series, what a series is, does it mesh with our current archiving methods, what are the long term effects on the rest of the lists (the snowball effect I mentioned). As Mario put it above, we're messing with the foundation here and I'm not comfortable with messing with the ground we're standing on till I'm sure the house isn't going to fall down as a result. There are various things to consider here and I don't feel that a proposal is going to offer enough time or space to hash them all out. My recommendation is to identify the various issues people are going to have, discuss them with the community on the forums, then bring the agreed upon criteria back here.
 * 4) The New Super Mario Bros Series is a sub-series of a sub-series in a series, which the wiki currently doesn't find applicable of having a page. Changing this would, like the people above said, cause a chain reaction, and end up making a everyone confused as to what deserves a page or not. If you make a proposal on changing how the wiki deals with Sub-series of sub-series (such as Mario Kart Arcade) that sounds reasonable, then this would be a good idea. In other words, per all.
 * 5) - Per myself in the comments, and per above, and per past proposals and discussions on similar matters. The Super Mario subseries is best read about as a whole, rather than breaking it into chunks; keeping the overall subseries page but making a separate NSMB-only sub-sub-series page isn't a solution to that since it just creates redundant duplication of info. It could also have repercussions on how History sections and other aspects of the wiki are organized, but in these cases too, keeping Super Mario games together makes more sense than splitting them up or getting horribly nested sub-sub-sub-sections and whatnot. Plus, making one sub-sub-series page might lead to more and more getting made, when we should really be focusing on making the series pages we already have actually look good.
 * 6) Not that any of my votes matter anyway. What I would say has already been said. And in depth.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Those series are all larger than the NSMB series. NSMB is still a relatively small series. And per everything else.

Comments
Haven't we been through this? - 22:22, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, exactly, the problem is that NSMB isn't actually a standalone series like the examples listed - it's a sub-series of the overall Super Mario series, and thus, giving it a series page is actually something new and has implications for how we deal with the other sub-sets of Super Mario games. Will the original SMB games they get a series? What about how NSMB is basically just a modern continuation of the oldschool sidescrollers - is it really right to split them up? What about the 3D games, or will only the one with "3D" in the title get their own series page? And what are the implications for History section orders, templates and other wiki-wide organizational systems: right now, everything's pretty consistently going by the overall Super Mario series, and I'm leery of messing around with that. Plus, series pages are currently a mess anyway: I feel like it might be better to focus efforts on fixing up the existing Super Mario series page rather than making one or more new, smaller series pages that are basically just duplicated subsets of the overall series... - 22:46, 23 September 2014 (EDT)

Well, the Super Mario 3D series and the Super Mario Galaxy series are (currently!) just duos, but I'm curious about this; We don't have a page for this, and yet its amount of games are up to par with Super Mario Advance if New Super Luigi U isn't counted, and with the current number of Mario vs. Donkey Kong if it is. Is there areason for that? Especially because the SMA games are remakes with Mario Bros. stuck on. So basically, I can't vote yet.

Aside: Sorry for the premature deletion, everyone. Seemed like an open and shut violation to me and it probably would have been if a discussion hadn't broken out between us about this very subject at the same time. -- Ghost Jam 06:32, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@Mario @GhostJam Erm... you two really have fear of changing some basics? I'm not blaming you at all, but I find it, like, a bit strange. Changing rules is a thing that sometimes in a project (MarioWiki, in this case) happens. By the by, I want to remember proposals can easily change from a win to a lose...
 * But wait, the Super Mario Advance series is just a remake collection. At this point, since NSMB series is, more than a remake, a (sub)series, what should we do? Delete that too? I don't understand the organization anymore. Please, explain it to me.

Look we made Subseries into pages such as Mario Kart, Mario Party, etc. and there is enough installments (5) so why oppose? And SMB, SMB2, SMB3 did not have the word "New" in their names so i am not saying "count them" i mean the 5 installments (NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2, NSMBU, NSLU) also this series is still pretty popular so let's do it when it is still popular.


 * @Tsunami Advance gets it own series page because it's just a remake series, not a new instalment in the Super Mario Bros. line like the NSMB games are.
 * @IggyKoopa777 Mario Kart and Mario Party are a completely separate and cut-off sub series from the Super Mario (Bros.) series, wheras the New Super Mario Bros series is a sub series of a sub series. Changing this would result in a lot of chages, and lots of them wouldn't make sense. If we take a while and work something out, then we can understand what would go where. - 08:49, 24 September 2014 (EDT)


 * @Ninelevendo What? Super Mario Bros. is a subseries? Of what? We don't have "Super Mario 2D (series)". Sorry, I don't get this at all. NSMB could also simply be a continuation of it. I recognize all pseudo-series as series, and the Super Mario series as a whole as a collection of them. I have confusion, so I will be neautral by not voting like BabyLuigi64 does.

@Iggy Koopa777 I should also add, Mario Kart and Mario Party are MUCH larger than NSMB, both have hit more than ten titles. The Mario Kart games reach a total of 11 games including arcade titles, meanwhile, Mario Party reaches 16, again including arcade games but discounting MP10. Therefore, the articles can be and are much more expansive. @Tsunami I think Ninelevendo is referring to how the Super Mario Bros. games are a subset of the Mario series as a whole.
 * And then, if the Super Mario 2D is ever recognized as a series (I know it isn't), where is it placed in the diagram I am starting figuring out? I'm thinking a diagram image should be uploaded to avoid confusion. Not the general one, we already have it. By the way, no, I won't vote again, but remain neautral.

Just a reminder that new comments always go on the bottom, lest this becomes a total mess. Anyway, as long as a set of games has three or more entries, it can get a series, that's not the problem here: the real question isn't "how much", it's "what". I.e. should a sub-sub-series of the Super Mario sub-series (of the overall Mario series) get a series article like its parent sub-series and other sub-series (like Mario Kart and whatnot), or is that going to cause organizational issues and inconsistencies between articles and series pages, duplication of information, and/or a snowball effect of sub-sub-series pages for increasingly blurry game groupings? I.e. should the original SMB games get a page too? Should SM64, SMS and the Galaxy games be grouped together as the more open-world platformers? Should the 3D games go with them because it's also 3D even if it's a bit more sidescrollery? If they make a third Galaxy game, will it get a separate series page? If they make a third 3D Land/World/etc. game, will it get a page? If they make a 3D Galaxy game then what do we do? And going outside the Super Mario games, should the three Mario Kart Arcade GP games get a page? Or the Super Mario Fushigi arcade party games? Do we really want to start prying open these cans of worms when the series pages we can agree on are already in rough shape? Anyway, the points about there already being a Super Mario Advance (series) are fair, and part of me feels like it'd be easier to just delete that page, but it's a bit different in that it's also got the Yoshi's Island remake in there, so it's not purely a subset of Super Mario-only games. It might be best to have a separate discussion/proposal about that series page... - 16:27, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@TsunamiIt has less to do with fear of change and more to do with apprehension over overhauling an already incomplete system. The fact that we only have one main-sub-series page is endemic of the problem and most of us just aren't comfortable letting it spread without having a discussion about the long reaching effects of such a change. Also, I disagree with this comment at the bottom thing. I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this @[PERSON] crap harder to follow than just having a standard reply indent. -- Ghost Jam 20:27, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@Mario @GhostJam Erm... you two really have fear of changing some basics? I'm not blaming you at all, but I find it, like, a bit strange. Changing rules is a thing that sometimes in a project (MarioWiki, in this case) happens. By the by, I want to remember proposals can easily change from a win to a lose...
 * I'm not afraid to change the basics. But this proposal is changing how we organize the wiki, and I don't really like to change multitudes among multitudes of history sections. Plus, it does invite discussions about those other "mainstream" platformer subseries like Super Mario Land. Our system isn't superbly flawed either, so it gives me and several other editors much less incentive to work so much with so little payoff.
 * As far as I remember, 'kazo, isn't Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island considered part of the "mainstream" Mario platformer games by some guys at Nintendo? 21:44, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but the consensus was that the wiki was gonna keep it separated for organizational purposes, citing the different gameplay, and the Yoshi Egg logo, and other things like that as reasons why it has more in common with the Yoshi series that followed it, rather than the SM series that spawned it. Plus, it's not in the SMASLE "Super Mario History" booklet (the other three SMA games were included), which is pretty much our only concrete official published Nintendo weigh-in on what's pat of the "Super Mario" series; iirc, Miyamoto said they consider it part of the main series (or something like that) in an interview, which wasn't worth uprooting the wiki's organizational system. And still isn't. -
 * Sorry for bugging you. I couldn't find an argument against that statement, since I'm also really iffy on that sort of stuff. I don't know how I missed conversations regarding that. So yeah, there's always a new person who needs an explanation. ^^' 22:13, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The debate was two years ago and was mostly exhausting walls of text by me and rebuttals laced with nasty little barbs from the other guy. The forum thread specifically about the interview actually ended up getting locked and thrown in topic storage, it got so badly derailed. -
 * Thanks for letting me know. I think it was during the time of my temporary year-long departure (please don't ask why), so yeah, I missed quite a lot there. 23:20, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, it ended in no change, so you didn't really miss much more than a messy debate. @Ghost Jam: I've seen some really screwed up Comments sections, like with people inserting new arguments about a point that was already discussed below, and posting three new comments when one could be done, and whatnot, and overall, it can make conversations/stances look circular or contrary or just plain messy. It's much easier to just always put stuff at the bottom, and indenting can still be used in addition to "@whoever:" for extra continuity (i.e. if a conversations' very indented and then someone comes and makes some unrelated (unindented) remark, just ignore it and stick with the indenting, although it breaks down if there's lots of remarks between the old post and the response). -

Ok. Let's clear up this confusion. I am NOT talking about old school games like SMB or SML. I mean NSMBU, NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2 and and NSLU. And Can't anyone notice the title is called New Super Mario Bros. (Series) notice that "New" part there?, yeah, that is what i am talking about. It says it right there New Super Mario Bros. (Series). NOT Super Mario Bros. (Series).
 * That's not the problem. The problem is by acknowledging a new subseries, we have to rewrite history sections for a whole ton of articles. Plus, just because it has "new" doesn't mean it's a subseries. By the logic, Super Mario Land and Super Mario 3D "thing" and Super Mario Galaxy may qualify as additional subseries, which will we will further have to accommodate for the changes. 17:13, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The thing you don't understand is that the word "New" doesn't mean that it's a different series, it is still part of the Super Mario [Bros.] (series). - 17:33, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * We're talking about how we would handle it with other sub-subseries games; we can't make a proposal for one without it affecting similar things.
 * Which is why I suggested moving this to the forums where an organized discussion can take place. Bring the results of that discussion back to here and we'll vote on it again. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 19:27, 27 September 2014 (EDT)

@Ninelevendo Look there is many differences also note that Super Mario Advance is made into a Series article But Wait!, it is just remakes. Also is it in 2D, do you see it's power ups in the old school version?


 * Do you see Super Paper Mario with turn based battles? Yet it's still a Paper Mario game. Do you see 4 separate characters in Mario Party 9? Yet it's still a Mario Party game. The fact that it's different is a flawed argument. The New Super Mario Bros. Series is a series within a series. Therefore splitting this would question things like the Mario Kart Arcade series. - 22:46, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Actually, keeping the Mario Kart Arcade series together with the entire Mario Kart series is a debatable argument 18:36, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I'd argue for splitting the Arcade series into another series. It wouldn't have as much as a ripple effect since it's a much narrower scope, but... eh? 18:51, 28 September 2014 (EDT)

@Superfiremario: Size doesn't get factored in as much when it comes to separate series. Mario & Luigi, Mario Strikers, and Mario Baseball have less games than the collective New Super Mario Bros. subseries. Just letting you know. 22:43, 28 September 2014 (EDT)

Ok, lets explain something. First, We made Paper Mario into a series page and it has only 4 installments and there is huge differences in this so called "Series". plus the 3DS adaptation is called New Super Mario Bros. 2. Wait wait wait?!, New Super Mario Bros. 2 notice the 2 part there?, it sounds a lot like a series.
 * I don't get the analogy. From its debut, New Super Mario Bros. is originally something like a "revival" of the traditional 2D Mario platformers. It spawned several sequels bearing the name "new". I agree that New Super Mario Bros. is a sub-subseries, but we're not arguing about that. We're arguing on whenever it deserves its own series page. The way the wiki is structured, we put all the "mainstream" Mario platformers into one group, and I think this organizational structure is going swimmingly. Now, if we were to create a separate series page, we have to reorganize our history sections. Not only this, this proposal will invite discussion on whenever Sunshine and 64 should be grouped as a subseries, whenever the Super Mario Land games should be grouped, whenever the Galaxy games should be grouped, and whenever the Super Mario 3D Land/World games should be grouped. That's the fundamental part of my and several other opposers' arguments, and you're consistently not getting that point.


 * Finally, such subseries page is redundant with Super Mario (series). Now, now, we do have redundant subseries pages including DK (series), Konkey Dong Country (series), but that's a problem we're trying to deal with and adding this subsubseries as an article is going to add on to our headaches. 23:12, 28 September 2014 (EDT)


 * I think the overall DK series (containing DKC/L, Konga, plus other things like Barrel Blast, etc.) is more akin to the overall Mario series rather than any one of its subseries, so it having subseries isn't an issue like the Super Mario subseries potentially having sub-sub-series. Similarly, there's overall Wario and Yoshi series, both of which can have subseries (Wario already does, with Wario Land, WarioWare and standalone things). Categories and Coverage both reflect this "big 4" approach. -
 * One thing: You keep mentioning other series that get pages (Paper Mario, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario & Luigi) but they are standalone series. The four are part of no bigger karting/racing, party, or RPG series. As commonly agreed upon, New Super Mario Bros. is an extension/revival of the original quartet of Super Mario Bros. games. Therefore, it is considered a subset of the whole Super Mario Bros. series. It's not that we don't think of the games as a series (oh and by the way, numbers aren't everything in determining a series, look at Paper Mario) but it's a smaller set of another.

I doubt this proposal will pass, oh well, at least i tried. Dreams do not come true every day.
 * If you'd take the advice we're giving you, your dream may come true someday. You're facing two main problems here:
 * 1. This has the potential to turn into something bigger than can be contained in a single proposal. It needs to either be split up into a wider discussion or several more proposals. I'd go with the discussion first.
 * 2. You're fighting the proposal process itself, whether you realize it or not, so you pretty much lost this on day one. This relates to the last point pretty heavily.
 * If you think this change is best for the wiki, address the concerns we've stated and work for an amicable solution. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:33, 1 October 2014 (EDT)
 * I lost it after a while too. I HAVE to discuss about this with someone...

Create articles for the assist trophy characters
CREATE 7-0

With the influx of SSB4 articles coming in, it needs to be decided now more than ever what to do with the Assist Trophy article. There are a lot of new assist trophies in the newest installment, and that's resulting in more names being added to the ever-growing list. It's gotten to the point where having a list covering all of them simply isn't enough. There are so many avenues of information that could be covered: relevant information on their original seires, their trophy and sticker descriptions, more detailed explanations of their abilities and interactions in fights (especially when some of the new ones basically act as CPU fighters)... These are all things that could easily be done if they were given separate articles. Besides that, there's one thing I'd like to mention.

To put it succinctly, we're giving articles to nearly every other character in the Smash series: the Adventure Mode enemies like Topis and Like Likes, the Subspace Emissary enemies like Mizzos and Floows, the Smash Run enemies like Cuccos and Darknuts, and pretty much every boss that isn't "this character +1 height" (Duon, Giga Bowser, Yellow Devil, etc). They range from being mindless with a single attack to requiring strategies to dodge around their attacks. The assist trophies, on the other hand, encompass all of that and have the added bonus of being items. If we're going by wiki standard, that's two reasons in one why they should have articles.

Judging by the archive of proposals, there's always been a... worry, for lack of a decent word, about covering Smash Bros. articles. There have been proposals to merge and remove and split and delete, all with varying results and decisions, but all arriving to the generally same conclusion: we should cover the Smash series, but within reason. With that said, our standards for what is "within reason" change. There are two proposals up there for not having articles for the Adventure Mode and Subspace Emissary enemies (that have passed, mind you), and yet, there have been recent proposals overriding them. What we can accept for articles has changed, and having articles for the assist trophies is definitely something that we could accept.

Proposer: Deadline: October 18, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Create the articles

 * 1) I support my proposal..
 * 2) Per proposal. I know we have SmashWiki and stuff, but all those elements appeared at least once in the Mario series: because of this, they need coverage. What about items then? I remember when I linked the page to another wiki to not display a red link, but got changed because there was need of a page. Why items get this nice treatment and Assist Trophies not? Having info about them is good, especially because some of them may have got a strange behavior (I didn't understand Kawashima at all). Also, per policy, thus Walkazo and Yoshi876 in the comments, plus Time Turner.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Finally. Yeah. I want this since they appear in mario game, and I don't care how minor they are. Many, like Mother Brain, already recieved mentions in mario series, like samus's qoute from SMRPG and Woster's list of people who think mushroom king is idiot. So this is good idea.
 * 5) Per Proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Per Proposal.

Comments
Then what about Pokémon? They should be treated the same way as the Assist Trophy characters. Aokage (talk) 14:38, 11 October 2014 (EDT)
 * The Assist Trophies alone are a huge step, after many proposals have tussled about it. We'll start off here and then, depending on how this goes, we can move on to the Pokemon.
 * I highly dunno: however, I still think they should get the same treatment of everthing else.

How about special moves? How are we going to deal with the currently spotty coverage of it? 15:17, 11 October 2014 (EDT)
 * One major issue about a crossover series that's been argued about for years at a time, please.
 * This is SmashWiki stuff in my opinion. Unless we don't merge it with MarioWiki (very likely it will never happen) we should have the basic coverage about it and lead to SmashWiki.

This is something I can't decide on. I won't vote (for now) but I'm curious to see how this ends.


 * What other NIWA wikis cover doesn't really matter: all our DK info's also being covered by the DK Wiki, but that doesn't mean we should chop it out of our coverage. In fact, according to our coverage policy:
 * "even series that can stand alone as their own series (i.e. SSB) are considered to be partner series of the Mario games. Therefore, all these crossovers are given full coverage: everything appearing in the games gets articles."
 * Bolded for emphasis to show that, technically, the Assist trophies already could (should?) be given pages within the wiki's official coverage scope. We just haven't gotten around to it yet for one reason or another, but now's as good a time as ever to address the issue, and doing it by proposal is the best way to make a solid decision on it given the back-and-forth history we've had with our SSB content. -
 * Again, another subject, but what about something more abstract, like special moves? 18:41, 12 October 2014 (EDT)
 * What did we do with moves? If we start making moves articles, we should make some for knockback, shield... doing so means we would include everything in SmashWiki. And SmashWiki's method to explain things is different from ours: SmashWiki really looks like a straegy guide, while MarioWiki is againist looking like a guide. I find good what we're doing already: give some coverage on the moves and giving the main link to SmashWiki.

What would be the point of this? Are we giving any other real information other than who they are and what they do in the game? - 01:26, 13 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Looks like not making them is breaking policy. This is the point of making them: they appear in Mario media, and we must cover them. Those info are enough.
 * But what he's saying is that they're very minor. Just saying "Oh, they appear in games that prominently enough feature Mario, so let's make an article" isn't good enough.
 * And? Certain enemies in the Mario series are minor, should we delete them? No, policy states that the Super Smash Bros. series gets full coverage, which would mean making articles for things relevant to it, like the Assist Trophies.
 * I'm... not exactly sure what part of this you're questioning. I already gave plenty of examples about what could be included in their articles, and they'd follow the standard used for nearly every other Smash-centric character, which I also mentioned. Who they are and what they do is also the kind of information we would include in any other article, regardless of who the character is, so... help me out here, Ninelevendo.
 * @BabyLuigi64 Minor? Wait, what? They're not minor at all. The only circumstance where something is minor enough to not deserve an article is a beta SMS enemy: it never appeared anywhere but in a beta. In my opinion, everything that has a relevance higher than never appeared/not-Mario element that only made 1-3 cameos deserves an article: basically, everyone ever appeared prominently enough in a Mario game. Assist Throphies are prominent enough, or I'm totally wrong?
 * What I mean is, these are trophies that you pick up, throw, and then summon some random who-knows-what that attacks for a few seconds, and then vanishes. How isn't it? These also aren't enemies (in many cases, they're not items (they spawn from). They're minor for Smash Bros. at least to me.
 * That's the definition of at least half of the wiki's items and special moves (hyperbole, but it's not far off), and no matter how obscure the character itself may be, and most of them are certainly not, and no matter how much of an actual enemy they still are, they are still there, doing things, and because they have a presence and they do things, they deserve articles. Look at the NPCs frolicking around in Flipside like Harold or Puck. These guys do absolutely nothing but act as background, scenery so that the player doesn't think the area looks bare. Yet, they have names, so they have articles. Here, the assist trophies are individually collected and activated, all have varied and practical uses, and all make a difference in the fight. Yet, we don't have articles for them. Even in the grand scheme of Smash Bros., they are certainly not minor, and I could point you to a thousand examples of what is truly minor.