MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Merge Wilt Shroom with Dried Shroom. (Discuss) Deadline: September 19, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Merge Koopasta with Koopasta Dish. (Discuss) Deadline: September 21, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Resize the Costume Mario costumes. (Discuss) Deadline: September 30, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Revamp the images on the Trick page. (Discuss) Deadline: October 2, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Restrict (if not remove) ImageMaps

 * Draft: User:Bazooka Mario/sandbox (check this revision for any future reference if you ever need it).

ImageMap templates are images you find on articles such as in World 1 (New Super Mario Bros.) that are filled with links, where you click on a specific part of the image to go to a particular article. They're intended to help visual readers navigate the wiki and relevant games more easily, but I find their usage and implementation less than ideal. They qualify as mystery meat navigation, flashy, but user-hostile forms of linking. While the imagemaps in MarioWiki aren't as cryptic as the moon image example in the Wikipedia page, their designs are still confusing for the average reader for several reasons: they are awkwardly placed in articles and look identical to thumbnail images and their low-resolution quality (needed to fit inside the page) and lack of labels or clear borders make distinguishing between places difficult. As Wikipedia put it, "it may not be readily apparent that the image is a clickable map instead of a simple picture". They are even more difficult to use for mobile users since image maps heavily rely on hovering for labeling locations, which mobile users cannot do.

The World 1 example I listed is, unfortunately, typical of most imagemap templates: gaudy, gimmicky, and ultimately useless.

This proposal aims to address the following problems of each individual imagemaps. Deletion is usually preferred, but if you disagree for a particular ImageMap and have reasons to keep them, please state so.

It is also imperative to see comments below as well before you vote since these are not set in stone, and they can be changed even after the proposal has passed.


 * (this one is especially confusing. Extremely user-hostile for those who are not familiar with Luigi's Mansion, but probably still confusing for those who are. It would work better in an article that lists all locations in Luigi's Mansion, but such article apparently doesn't exist. This, at best, should stay in the drawing board.)
 * (see LM Mansion Map. While LM Mansion Map might be a navigational aid for those in the middle of a game (although the Mansion isn't exactly a maze either), this one makes even less sense since the Lab is a small place)
 * (this one is already covered by navigational template. Implementing this into the navigational template would just take up space)
 * (it might have use, but it's very difficult to implement this template in any other spot in the article, and it looks bad the way it is)
 * (see NSMB-W1map. That ImageTemplates are far from complete is troublesome (for the merits of Image Maps, which are already dubious anyway) but it might be good to restrict usage now before it gets out of hand)
 * (see NSMB-W3map)
 * (see PDSMBE-map)
 * (see PDSMBE-map)
 * (this one is even more confusing, and it has to be ultra-low res for it to look barely presentable, which makes distinguishing between worlds very difficult; very user-hostile image-map that should be removed)
 * (already covered in its respective article. Moreover, its location inside the level infobox makes it impossible to discern it from a normal image without hovering over its specific link points)
 * (not great, especially for those who haven't played the game. It might work for Bowser's body, but ideally, it should have labels, but the low-res nature thanks for AlphaDream makes it not worth it. It's still difficult pinpointing each location; case point, it took me, who hasn't played the game (and for those who are in the midst of playing the game, the game already provides labels to each location, if I'm correct) longer than it should to locate Trash Pit. Otherwise, it should be removed from area-specific articles due to its bad placements in those articles.)
 * (at best, it should stick to only to the game article, Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story. Even then, it looks inconspicuous and not very useful, and the in-game map probably already has those labels.)
 * (this one is bad. The low resolution makes it difficult to distinguish between each area, so I think we should just nix this one.)
 * (it's not horrible, but I question its usefulness the same way I question M&L BIS Overworld Map's utility. I'm aware that in-game, the map itself already provides pointers to where you are, making it even more useless for those in the midst of playing the game.)
 * (see M&L:PIT Overworld Map. Its in-game map also has labels and makes this one useless when it comes to wiki coverage. This one is particularly difficult to use due to its low-res nature and that certain major areas including Beanbean Castle Town are difficult to locate. Also, Beanbean Outskirts is located in a specific spot when it should surround Beanbean Castle, but I suppose that's impossible with this system. So, remove it.)
 * (Not good. Its low-res nature makes it difficult to use, as with most Image Map templates. It would work if it were bigger and had labels. Its placement in articles is just as miserable as in most Image Map templates.
 * (again, it's very difficult to distinguish between places without squinting)
 * It would probably work for general overhead articles, but only if it actually looks different from other images. It's still difficult to use since some places are bordering microscopic.
 * Utterly pointless (not to mention gaudy in Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and when you have screenshots that have this stuff in it, like in World 6 (Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island), it's also confusing.
 * It might work, but its current implementation is difficult to use and requires a microscope. It still needs to be confined to overview articles rather than area-specific articles.
 * See SMWmap; this one looks identical.
 * It might work, but confine it to general overview articles (Vibe Island in this case) rather than slapping it everywhere. It still needs to be placed in a better spot, but the low-res nature of it makes it difficult for me to think of a method where it doesn't resemble a plain image.
 * Pointless. Names are a good indicator of each place. Actually, this applies to most areas in most games.
 * Utterly pointless.
 * Utterly pointless.

Common issues:
 * Difficult-to-distinguish locations
 * Bad placement, especially within more area-specific articles (placement in overview articles are not great either).
 * Redundant.
 * Aside from a tiny i icon, looks identical to normal images.
 * Due to the over reliance on hover-text, mobile users cannot benefit from Image Maps.

This is a writing guidelines proposal because there is a policy page dedicated to this under the writing guidelines category. Again, some ImageMaps may be worthy of keeping (I have doubts though), but if so, then it must caution users when making ImageMaps and they need to be implemented in a manner that doesn't highly resemble normal images, perhaps a special border around the image with the label "image map", no thumbnail framing, and located in a more conspicuous spot in the article. Either way, all Image Maps have their issues and I can't say I like they way they're implemented here. I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections.

Proposer: Deadline: September 18, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) All Image Maps, in my opinion, are highly flawed design aspects in our wiki. I used to think they are useful for the visual learners (including me), but they have only disappointed me so far for these above reasons. I think deletion or at least a highly confined usage will work for them. This is "Writing Guidelines" because it's a major change in one of our policies if it passes.
 * 2) Per Bazooka Mario.
 * 3) Per Mario.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal
 * 7) I've changed my mind. Through the comments, Bazooka Mario has made it very clear what the goal of this proposal is. I still think this proposal isn't perfect, but I think we've made some decent progress that warrants my vote.
 * 8) - Image Maps are good for orientation in the directory articles (game and overall world/place pages), but not as alternative navigation templates on the specific location/level pages. See my comments about which ones should be scrapped or saved, but overall, a proposal to rehabilitate their use and fix the policy page is one I can get behind, and the draft is well enough along at this point for me to formally support.
 * 9) Per all.

Oppose

 * # Okay, hear me out. I agree with what's been said, and I agree that image maps are a mess. However, I don't think removing some without further thought is a good idea. This is the type of thing that can be changed, improved, and fixed. I'm not the best at coding, but I'm sure there's a way to make image maps appealing to everyone. If we try improving image maps and it doesn't work, ah well, maybe then we can think of removing them. But for now, give it a chance. After all, it's not the idea that is flawed; it's the presentation. Also, see my comments below. They are arguebly just as important.


 * 1) Per all, Andymii in particular.

Comments
Not that I disagree with what's being proposed, but if you're going to make a writing guidelines proposal, don't you need to make a draft?
 * Well, I'm not sure what the draft might look like as of yet, but the policy page implies that the process of writing a draft can be done during proposal process (that "writing guideline proposals are given two weeks as opposed to one so as to allow sufficient time to perfect the document.") Also, my proposal aims to either nix or highly restrict their usage, something I don't feel is worth potentially splitting the vote (I can go with either one), so I'm not 100% sure what's supposed to be in the draft yet, or if there is a call for a draft. It was difficult for me to determine if this proposal is about general change, removal, or a writing guideline, but I stuck with writing guideline since it involves potentially (emphasis on potentially) changing a MarioWiki policy or making it moot. In other words, I'm highly uncertain. 18:48, 4 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Okay, I got the draft down. That might be a start. 19:32, 4 September 2015 (EDT)

These are kind of useful. What will we do if they get removed or restricted? (talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 00:23, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
 * They are not useful as I explained above, and for these reasons, they are a user-hostile design that shouldn't be in this wiki in their current state. 15:35, 5 September 2015 (EDT)

Andymii: This proposal is not wholly about removing Image Maps, it's simply restricting their usage at best if in case there are reasons to keep one or two. As I said, "I prefer if they were deleted and at least placed back in the drawing board so it doesn't look at bad as it is now, but all-out-deletion may be too much, so I'm open for suggestions and objections." I'm saying that even at best, we should send Image Maps back to the drawing board to allow them to get improved so we can readd them when needed. Image Maps as they are are abused and look terrible in most articles they are in, mostly scrunched below the infobox, hidden at the bottom of the article, or being redundantly placed directly next to the list of levels. They're the gaudiest part of our wiki and thus, they don't improve our credibility. 15:35, 5 September 2015 (EDT)
 * And even if Image Maps are highly flawed in design, our Writing Guidelines for Image Maps set them up to be low-res and inconspicuous and I already pointed out those problems in my draft. 15:36, 5 September 2015 (EDT)

Good points, but I don't think we really know what we will do next. You've listes some image maps with comments, but most of them are just "this is useless" (okay, more detailed than that, but, ya know.) I'm always open for change, but I don't think this has been completely thought through. Not that I'm saying all our changes should be black and white, but I'm genuinelly unsure here what's going to happen next. --Andymii (talk) 00:13, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I think the likeliest change would be keeping ImageMaps within generic location articles (like Bowser's Body, BeanBean Kingdom) while removing Image Maps from level/world articles. Remember, they can always be reimplemented, but I just don't like their current state right now. I'm emphasizing on "if not remove" part of the proposal title. See, that's what a draft is for, and that's why "Writing Guidelines" go for two weeks, for me to think and allow people to point out suggestions and other comments. 01:15, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Oh, I'm sorry. I had a misunderstanding. You're thinking of deleting the maps from level/world articles and keeping them on generic location articles. I actually think that's a good idea. I wish I supported.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 10:08, 6 September 2015 (EDT)
 * You can remove your opposition vote and support the proposal instead, you know. - 12:07, 6 September 2015 (EDT)

So I finally got enough time to look at this proposal properly (except for the writing guideline draft: I'll try to get to that tonight or tomorrow) and go through the templates one-by-one, and here's my thoughts, grouped by map type / verdict for clarity:


 * - Keep: it'd be good for Luigi's Mansion (place) and Luigi's Mansion. But I'd suggest redesigning it to that all 5 levels are vertically arranged (rather than two columns), with a bit of blank space between each as buffers so that it's clearer that they're different floors.
 * , - Scrap: too small to be worth-while.
 * }},, , , , - Scrap: the labels are in the images already; just have the regular images on the pages rather than all the trouble of a template.
 * ,, - Keep: since there's branching pathways it's not completely intuitive what the numbers always are, and provided all the worlds get them, they could be used in both those articles in the infoboxes (P&D is fine but the NSMB infobox needs to be wider to be legible) and the game pages (i.e. stacked in the "Worlds" sections next to the descriptions, rather than just single world examples).
 * ,, , , , , , , , - Keep: not all the area names are intuitive, and the maps will fit on the game and location pages well enough (in place of mere images, and at large-enough sizes, not scaled down). The only issue is that larger areas should have more than one tiny clickable area (e.g. add multiple link sites for Beanbean Outskirts, and all the NSMBU areas, etc.).
 * - Keep: it's good for Bowser's body and the M&L3 game article since then you can match up the locations to the nodes (otherwise long windy directions are needed since it's not intuitive at all a lot of the time; that'd be fine for individual location articles, but it'd be too much all in one place).
 * - Scrap: duplicate of

Overall thoughts: The overworld maps are good for game and place articles (Beanbean Kingdom, etc.), and the world-specific maps are good for the world articles and the game articles, as long as all the worlds have them. When a template is used on an article, it should be used in place of a mere image of the map; this will often mean putting the template in the infobox, which should be fine as long as the infoboxes aren't obscenely wide (but most templates are only about 400 px or less wide, which would be fine for an infobox, and should be clear enough to be readable and useable). If the names of the places are right there in the level/world select screens, no template's necessary to tell readers what place is what. - 16:45, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I'll get around to some revisions, but do you think how Image Maps are placed are a problem? That ImageMaps aren't immediately discernible from simple images is an issue. I think the infobox might need some revision to let readers better know that these are Image Maps. 18:19, 7 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Just include a "click the level icons/areas/etc. to go to the relevant articles" note as a caption (no  following the template) for the images in infoboxes, and when images aren't in infoboxes, like in game pages, just mention it in the text or the thumbnail notes (depending on whether it's formatted as a thumbnail or not - anything that goes in infoboxes shouldn't be). -  18:55, 7 September 2015 (EDT)

Wow, I didn't realize how terrible Image Maps is... Anyway, I looked over the draft, but there's so many problems with the source material, I gave up on trying to succinctly comment and just did a whole new draft for the policy parts, based on some of your comments on your draft page, and also things that I said here, and extra bits that occurred to me as I was working. Let me know what you think. - 21:55, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I was wondering why it seems so... amateur to me, nothing against Megadardery (he's not a native speaker if I recall correctly). Yeah, my draft probably isn't the best, so I just made comments here and there. Well, is it fine if I incorporate the draft soon? I still have yet to look over it, but at a glance, it seems fine... 00:07, 10 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Yep, if you wanna use my draft, feel free to copypasta it (and then make any fixes or further changes if you see fit, but for clarity, I'd use separate edits than the initial moving of the content). If this passes, I can update the protected policy page for you and ensure the appropriate credit is given to both of us in the summary. - 18:39, 10 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Okay, I've done it, and I've included some (not much!) commentary on some points. It's mostly for clarification or other questions. 15:53, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Cool. I updated my page to better explain the default link stuff), and also made the "no fan images" part of the main point rather than a subpoint unto itself (but I think it should still be explicitly said to make absolutely sure people get the point). As for the size/clarity one, the subpoint gives examples already, so more aren't necessary. EDIT: I also made a few grammar tweaks on top of your changes, shown here. - 17:06, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
 * That's what I thought the extra bullet point was meant to hammer in readers, but I think how you merged it is a better idea. One more statement that isn't made very clear to me is the one that starts with "Locations that are widespread in the map[...]". I'm not sure why I haven't commented on this earlier, but later reading it, I kind of go "huh?". 17:43, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Like how in, all the areas are pretty large, yet once the text disappears after you hover-over part of the area, it doesn't appear again as you waver the mouse around the rest of the large area - so I feel like in these cases, it'd be good to break the areas into smaller chunks so the text can come up more than once and show it's all the same place. Plus, as been mentioned before, places like the Beanbean Outskirts are all around the castle, but only have a link underneath in , so multiple links would be good for those as well. - 18:05, 12 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Beanbean Outskirts is a good example to provide for this then. I couldn't find the link for it myself, so I speak from personal experience. Thanks for the clarification! 18:26, 12 September 2015 (EDT)

Okay, so I went ahead and rewrote the bottom half of MarioWiki:Image Maps too - to the best of my abilities, anyway, but I'm pretty sure all the coding stuff is right. - 20:51, 15 September 2015 (EDT)


 * sigh, all my hard "bad" work. Actually, it was a terrible thing I did with the Image Maps. So yea, the draft Walkazo came up with is 100 times better :) Anyway, regarding the actual proposal, I don't agree with removing all the imagemaps as Bazooka proposed, I prefer to go with Walkazo's suggestion, I wasn't very keen on the NSMB and YIDS style map, but since it was made by one of the admins (or a formal admin), I didn't give it much of a thought, I felt it provided a faster way to move if you know which page you are going to go to, saving you the trouble of writing the link in the search bar or something. But now that I think about it, the images looks ugly the way they are. Anyway, regarding the bigger maps, especially Luigi's Mansion. Not only because that I made them (and I make perfect ImageMap templates, mind you :P) . But because they actually help to navigate faster between rooms, and show users a very good layout of the mansion, better than any lengthy description. I could manually add text to the rooms to make them easier to see (because the game doesn't nativally show names, or at least the name of the rooms you are not in). But it's a gray area editing screenshot, so avoiding it is better. Also, hovering over any part of the mapimage will show the link location in almost all modern browsers in the lower left corner of the screen. If not, waiting like 1 second will show you the target name under the cursor. So whatever the imagemap is, it's not worthless. But if it causes troubles or ugliness, then off with it. If the names of the location is the thing that annoys you, I think going over all the games and getting screenshots of the maps with the labels shouldn't be very impossible.-- 07:52, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Don't be too hard on yourself. I thought about you when I made this proposal and I was pretty guilty, but in the same time, their design bothers me. As stated in the proposal title, the "if not" part is only an option if people really do think they should be removed, but my main point is to amend them, and if they cannot be amended, then they should be removed. I'm aware that you can hover over the area to get their names, but it's fairly time-consuming, and mobile users can't do this. I do think labels might work (and it can; Superstar Saga has ingame labels that we can possible screencap off and upload it on this wiki). The problem with my proposals is that my ideas and thoughts tend to be half-baked, and I'm grateful that we're allocated two weeks to sort out those kinds of things. 18:07, 18 September 2015 (EDT)

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Add "bugs and" or "and bugs" to "List of glitches in"
First, my reasoning is bugs and glitches are not the same. A bug is a minor glitch (like a short-lived audio glitch, which would be considered a bug according to this proposal), whereas a full-blown glitch is something that is longterm, causes a game to freeze, and so on and so forth. For example: this is what would be considered a bug, but this would be a full-blown glitch.

Proposer: Deadline: September 20, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Change

 * 1) per my own proposal.

Leave as is

 * 1) - Seems too similar and minor to bother changing all these titles, and mouthful "_ and _" names are less than ideal in general. The only reason we're stuck with "pre-release and unused" is because there's no nice umbrella term, but I feel like the broad meaning of "glitch", like how we currently use it, is more widespread and accepted than "beta" was, with a lot of (if not most) folks using it and "bug" interchangeably.
 * 2) Per Walkazo. Better off staying how they are.
 * 3) Per Walkazo, as well as Baby Luigi in the comments.
 * 4) I think it's totally fine to create a page called Bug and redirect it to Glitch, but beyond that, I feel the definitions here are a smidge pedantic, unlike the far more confusing "subspecies" and "beta".
 * 5) Walky said it better, but I don't see the point. Bugs and glitches are already near synonyms and I doubt anyone's getting confused.

Comments
I'm on the edge with this, but your description is wrong. The term of a bug and glitches is not defined on how damaging of a scale they are (both can cause game-breaking things, it depends on what component of the game experiences that or that), but the processes that caused them. Glitches, I believe, are things that the game developers did not intend/over-looked that are performed by the player, while a bug is a problem in the coding of the software itself. But since we do use "pre-release and unused" for that, I don't see why we can't add "bugs" to the title description. However, most people say those two interchangeably, so I do think it's verging in pedantry. 16:52, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I wasn't talking about the level of damage but the significance of a glitch. And while they are interchangeable, that is only in speaking. On the wiki, however, the two should have different meanings. RoyNSMBU.png Roy Koopa 16:57, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * It's still not dependent on the magnitude of the glitch. As I said, the term is defined more of processes that caused the error in the game rather than how significant they are, as both are fully capable of crashing the game or whatever, so it's really hard to define terms that way (like, a minor clip bug could cause the rest of the game to be unplayable, because you cannot advance due to it). And tell why they should? I have said why they should not; because it's for the convenience of searching for these articles and because it's used interchangeably in normal speak. Compared to beta elements, that is. I've also stated why we should, to be consistent with the pre-released and unused content article. 17:01, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * About the minor clip bug, that would call for a reset of the system/software. As for the convenience of searching bit, if someone doesn't know we only use the term "glitches" and looked up "List of bugs in," they would get nowhere. As you might be able to see, this proposal is more for the help of readers who have no intention of editing, anons who edit, and new users. RoyNSMBU.png Roy Koopa 17:12, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Exactly, you've proved my point on why we don't define the terms solely because of how big and game-changing they are. There are far too many variables and parameters we have to define; saying the processes that caused this and this error is a better way to define "bug" and "glitch" rather than how significant it is, and "significant" is a pretty loose and relative term. Also, I think we need more redirects in general with the whole lists thing, like List of minigames articles needs more redirects. 17:16, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * What if I added an option to say "Redirect 'List of bugs in' to 'List of glitches in'"? RoyNSMBU.png Roy Koopa 17:20, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Maybe? Maybe not. I don't know about this. 14:58, 14 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I don't think anyone would object if you created Bug as a redirect to Glitch although "bug" can mean other things. 15:08, 14 September 2015 (EDT)

I don't think there is a need to split the vote between "bugs and" and "and bugs". Just a simple support would suffice so determining outcomes would be simpler. 17:14, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Do you mean have the voters post their opinion in the vote? RoyNSMBU.png Roy Koopa 17:15, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I mean, you can merge your "bugs and" and "and bugs" choices into one support vote. They're pretty much the same thing, so there's no need to mull over the order of the elements. 17:23, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

@Walkazo Adding two syllables is not a mouthful imo. Six syllables (I counted) is though. Roy Koopa 17:28, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * You're not adding just syllables, but extra spaces and characters. It makes the title and links look more clunky. 18:11, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * ummmm...how does it make a link clunky? RoyNSMBU.png Roy Koopa 21:12, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
 * In the navigation templates mostly, so you mostly have to resort to piping there. And considering that it's not all that necessary, then I'm not sure if it's worth lengthening the name like that. 14:58, 14 September 2015 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.