MarioWiki:Proposals

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/Deadringerforlove/dessert1.jpg A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code.

This page observes the No-Signature Policy.

How To
 * 1) Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
 * 2) Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 * 3) *Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
 * 4) *Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
 * 5) *Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 * 6) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
 * 7) Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. The voter can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another User's vote lies solely with the Administrators.
 * 8) " # " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 * 9) All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week.
 * 10) If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes. If a proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week.
 * 11) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
 * 12) No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
 * 13) Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation. However, the proposer can request that their proposal be deleted by a Sysop at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it.
 * 14) All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a Sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
 * 15) There shouldn't be proposals about creating articles on a underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try creating a PipeProject.
 * 16) Proposals can not be made about System Operator promotions and demotions. Sysops can only be promoted and demoted by the will of Bureaucrats.
 * 17) If the Sysops deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
 * 18) No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters, and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.

The times are in EDT (UTC -4:00), and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: , 27 2024 (EDT)

Make bestiaries or not?
Ok so users have been arguing on if there should be a bestiary for enemies or not(like a collection of all the enemies from a game in one article). Really, why do we need a bestiary? I'm not the best at explaining, but my reasons on why there shouldn't be a bestiary are below.


 * 1) First of all, bestiaries are worthless because you're just deleting a list of enemies from a main article, and then putting that content into a new sub-article and adding stuff, like where the enemies appear. But why don't we just keep all that in the main article and not have a whole article on enemies and where they appear? In fact, writing about where enemies appear in main articles or bestiaries, as you can just click on the link to that enemies page and read about where they come from there!
 * 2) Some users made a huge table for the BiS enemies. I can tell that it took them a lot of work, and if the BiS enemies are put in a bestiary, than those tables have to be deleted! And there's no point of erasing great work!
 * 3) Bestiaries can make some stubs. How? Some games such as Mario is Missing, Yoshi's Cookie, Super Mario Bros., and Mario Bros. have very few enemies. Making their list in a bestiary will make a short list, resulting in an unwanted stub.
 * 4) Why do we need bestiaries when we have categories about enemies? You can just go to category:Paper Mario enemies or category: Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story enemies, then click on the link to their article, and read about where they appear.
 * 5) Wikipedia doesn't even have bestiaries! We may not be Wikipedia, but it is a much more experienced wiki. The users they probably know better than to put in bestiaries.

HOWEVER, games in the Paper Mario series and Super Mario RPG SHOULD have bestiaries because their games have psychopath thoughts/tattles and bestiaries. But yeah, no need for bestiaries on those other games. Happy voting!

Proposer: Deadline: 5, December 2009, 15:00

Bestiaries should be developed for RPG game articles only; unnecessary for other genres

 * 1) Per above.
 * 2) - Keep it!!! Bestiaries are for Paper Mario and MRPG stuff, since it actually tells about the enemies in the game. The Mario & Luigi series is RPG series and hav enemies too, but don't describe them in the game. Easy choice.
 * 3) - I'd have to go with you guys on this one. I know how hard you all worked to finish the whole thing. Per FF65.
 * 4) - Per BMB.
 * 5) Per my comments below.
 * 6) - Per all. Another thing really unnecessary. Most of bestiaries are small, poor and so-simple lists that can be created within main articles without any complication. Why making those simple things harder?
 * 7) - Per all,we don't need this,they make the pages of their respective games shorter and make the pages of the "bestiaries" a stub,Really not necessary!.
 * 8) Well, considering the fact that I think the gallery is stupid, at least I don't have to go to another article just to read info on the enemies.
 * 9) - No, it's all right in the game article. However, in RPG games we may put them in alphabetical order.
 * 10) - Per all. Only the Paper Mario series actually requires bestiaries.
 * 11) - Bestiaries are, for the purposes of this wiki, a list of enemies found in a particular game, as well as their vital statistics, locations, and a description if the game provides one. Due to the nature of bestiaries, they can be quite long and thorough, so must be split from the main article. Bestiaries, however, are not always necessary, and in fact are only really helpful for RPG games. There are currently four Mario RPG games: Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, Paper Mario, Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario. A bestiary for each would prove legitimate and useful. I oppose this proposal because it seeks to make bestiaries unnecessary for all game articles, RPG or otherwise. I agree bestiaries are not necessary for the regular platformer and puzzle Mario games, but banning them entirely from the RPG games is simply too far.
 * 12) I think the enemies of a certain evolution like Goomba and Gu Goomba, should be merged.

Comments
Is this proposal supposed to delete all bestiary articles or only those pertaining the M&L series? Lists of enemies should belong on the game's article (Paper Mario games shouldn't get any special treatment). I'd support preventing all bestiary articles.--

Uhm... Does this Proposal actually intent to change anything? If so, then the header of the second paragraph is misnamed. If not, then what's the point? - 20:12, 29 November 2009 (EST)


 * I think it's only gonna change the newly added bestiaries of M&L series. I've gotta disagree with you Knife, though. Mario and Luigi series have no bestiary, while the Paper Mario series have bestiaires (Tattles, Catch Cards, and whatever the heck they are).
 * No this counts for all articles on games. Not the Mario and Luigi series. So if the most users think that there shouldn't be a bestiary, than we will only have any, unless it is really needed(like for PM games). But if the most users want there to be bestiaries, than we'll put bestiaries for all games.


 * I'm not really too fond of bestiaries for the M&L series, but if this proposal passes, do we have to create bestiaries for SMS and NSMBW and other games?

Yes but I honestly doubt we'll have to make any bestiaries. A lot of uses didn't like the idea of bestiaries, but I made this proposal to solve an argument. I hate when people fight on the internet.


 * Yeah, but I think the bestiaires for PM games should stay.
 * Yes, because PM has tattle info and stuff needed for bestiaries. Just for the PM series.


 * Perfect! I shall vote now.

Uhm... I just want to inform you, that, should the Proposal pass in favour of the site who is leading atm, absolutely nothing will happen, because the header says "Keep as is". -


 * FF65, when you mentioned the BiS table stuff, I think that one user made it, while another user fixed a grammar problem (not trying to be selfish, just stating that fact) :) -

So do have to change something because the header says "keep as is"?
 * Wait, I have a question, does that mean that the PM bestiary will cease to exist if this is heading in the direction the atm side is on?
 * The Proposal should probably be rewritten. It seems to cause much confusion. -
 * Ok ok I fixed it a bit! Does it make more sense?
 * Well, it's more straight forward now, so I guess yes. -

There seems to be some confusion as to what a bestiary is. A bestiary is a complete list of all enemies found in a particular game, as well as the places they are located. It has absolutely nothing to do with tattle information, and in no way ends up as a stub. Really, Fawful is misleading you all as he apparently hasn't even read the current bestiary for the Paper Mario page. The intent of bestiaries are to avoid crowding main articles and expand on information that would otherwise be a list. Please, look at all the information before casting your votes. Redstar 22:23, 29 November 2009 (EST)
 * Ok forget about the stub parts. Yes, I read the bestiary for PM, a list that can be added to the main PM article but isn't. And if bestiaries don't include tattle info, than that just makes bastiaries more worthless. And putting all that in the main article won't clutter up anything, in fact, if you really want to know where certain enemies appear, than just check out their article, that simple! We don't need bestiaries, Wikipedia doesn't even have bestiaries on games!
 * We're not Wikipedia. If we were, we wouldn't even be covering half the article as it is. And bestiaries aren't worthless... The entire point of them is to clean-up the main article, because no one wants to read a list of enemies found in that game. It takes up space for more important information. Splitting that list off into its own page, as well as expanding it to include location information, both cleans up the main article and keeps information presented in a more specialized location. Really, the only reason against this is because it's a little more work. The only reason you brought it up is because you don't like the things needed to be done to make the Mario & Luigi page worth Featuring. Laziness does not excuse professional standards. Redstar 22:46, 29 November 2009 (EST)
 * If you want to continue this discussion, then do it without accusations! Everyone, maintain a mature standard of debating please! -
 * I would like to, but I don't approve of someone going behind my back and lying about what something constitutes just so they can avoid doing it. This entire proposal is based on personal misconception, which implies Fawful didn't even look at the bestiary page as an example. I just hope we can both resolve it and get people looking at the facts. Redstar 23:06, 29 November 2009 (EST)

CoinCollector: Bestiaries are not meant to be simple lists. They are a more thorough amount of information detailing locations in-game found, stats, and in-game tattle or player's guide information. These are things that should be there anyways, but if they were would take up too much room and so are moved. Several articles already do this and it's supposed to be done for all of them, but hasn't already. The only reason this is up for proposal is because Fawful and MATEO don't want to do the necessary work to make their articles worthy of Featuring, so are attempting to side-step it by creating a proposal to undermine current standard. Redstar 02:20, 30 November 2009 (EST)


 * Making a bestiary in that way is similar to create an article for each enemy found in the game. Adding too info for enemies in the game's article makes the enemies' articles themselves redundant and useless, even making an attachment on that issue. In other words, you would like to "merge" (or "copy" or whatever) the info seen from multiple articles into one...
 * It's not similar to that at all. Enemies stats differ from game to game, so in actuality this splits that information from the main articles to the related game articles, thus saving space. There is no merging at all. The main articles, such as a Goombas, for example, shouldn't be swamped with technical information from each game. It should only cover the history of that enemy throughout the games. Stats and such is better suited for the bestiary related to each game. An example of what a basic bestiary is would be the Paper Mario/Bestiary, which simply lists each enemy and the location they're found at. A more extensive bestiary is the one for Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Tattle Log). This information is individual from game-to-game, specifically the RPGs, so the RPGs are the only games affected to such a degree. Other games, such as Super Mario Sunshine, only need to be filled out in the basic way. Redstar 03:10, 30 November 2009 (EST)


 * That info fits without problems in the main article, so, why move it? in fact, I see there is no official descriptions (eg: in-game info) or something like that as to fill the "missing space" for those lists, just technical information (HP, Attack, Defense, etc) and that's fairly short. Changing over the info for the character articles will look them more formal but less dynamic - and maybe is by the fact that looks like we abused the purpose of the information tables, but that's other tale. The tattle log of Paper Mario looks like for me a walk-trough than real information... Well, that's just my opinion.
 * It should be moved because it's supposed to have all that essential information filled out, but if it did it would take up too much space. That's why bestiary pages are warranted. The problem is that the Goomba page, for example, used the correct table for an enemy while the Amazy Dayzee page does not. It uses the box associated with the RPG game. These main character pages shouldn't have all that technical information and should focus on the history, appearances, etc. The technical information should be moved to the corresponding game bestiaries, where they provide better focus and clean up the various related articles. Also, the Paper Mario bestiary looks that way because it's unfinished... It's supposed to look like the TTYD one. Redstar 03:53, 30 November 2009 (EST)
 * Hey, I made this proposal to solve arguments you know! And stop it, Redstar, here, you're calling me and MATEO lazy, you called me a liar(which I am absolutely not!), and you're telling everyone that I'm misleading them! And now you're arguing with a sysop! Just wait until Dec. 5th when more users decide. Until then, I'm done with this, I'm going to fix up my proposal's description and wait for other users to vote on which they want. I hate arguing!
 * It's called discussing, not arguing. I have perfectly valid reasons for believing you both lied and are lazy. For laziness, I discussed many points on why I felt the Mario & Luigi page wasn't yet ready for Feature-status, including splitting off the enemy list into a bestiary. Rather than give reasons not to do it, or simply split it (which was all I asked, was to split it and we could work on expanding it later) you came here and formed a proposal that, if passed, results in you not having to do it. How is avoiding work or discussion not lazy? As for lying, your initial proposal stated that forming a bestiary would delete work already done and create nothing but a stub. Both are untrue because moving all this work to a new page as-is does not delete it, and if it would become a stub, then that's because it's already a stub. Splitting it doesn't change a single thing. It can't become something unless it already is that thing. You may not have lied, but you obfuscated the facts. Redstar 09:02, 30 November 2009 (EST)
 * I made this proposal to stop the endless chat going around on those nomination pages. That's not lazy at all. My reasons on why we shouldn't make bestiaries are stated above. Therefore, we will wait for others user to make up their mind.
 * That was not chatting, that was discussion on issues relating to the article that you could have easily argued there. Instead, you formed this proposal. If you didn't like the proposed work to make the article fit for Feature-status, then you should have provided legitimate reasons against it. Instead I find this proposal a means of sidestepping professional discussion for a chance to not do the work. I don't want to argue over this, but I would like you to admit to what is obvious. Wikis take compromise and collaboration, not finding ways to get around work or discussion. Redstar 09:23, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Fawfulfury65 recently re-wrote his proposal to better explain reasons against forming bestiaries. I will now write a rebuttal to each point explaining why bestiaries are both a good idea, and why his reasons are misinformed. Here we go:


 * 1) Fawful asks why we can't just have the information on the main page. Well, truthfully, we can, but the reason why we shouldn't is because there are simply so many enemies that by naming them all, it becomes nothing more than a list. Even if they are fitted into tables, that list becomes much larger and, while more "pretty", takes up space. Splitting it to a new sub-article saves space on the main article as well as allows the information to be presented to its fullest where it won't distract from the main information. He also suggests simply clicking the enemy links to read on their main articles where they're located... Well, the problem with that is that enemies appear in more than one game. Any information on how and where they appear in this game simply won't be provided. The bestiary would provide actual locations in the game where they are found, giving far more information than can be found otherwise.
 * 2) Fawful's second point is that the current list of enemies are presented in a table, which took "hard work". I can personally vouch that the tables are very badly-written and lack in-depth information. I cannot see much of any work having been put into them at all. Regardless, these tables won't be deleted on splitting. There's no reason to, so there's nothing to fear.
 * 3) He suggests that bestiaries would create stubs for games that don't have a large amount of enemies. This is false thinking because bestiaries are only necessary for the RPG games, which both have a large number of enemies as well as a plethora of statistics for those enemies. No game articles besides the RPG ones are affected by this, because only the RPG articles need it.
 * 4) We need bestiaries because they provide quick and easy information for enemies found in a game. Categories are not a legitimate substitute because people don't often look up categories, and categories only list articles. Categories provide just as much information as using the search-function does, which simply does not work.
 * 5) Finally, Fawful points out that Wikipedia doesn't use bestiaries, so why should we? Well, Wikipedia also doesn't create articles about specific enemies, so I think that explains why Wikipedia does not apply here.

I hope all those points explain why I feel bestiaries are both necessary and logical. Perhaps a few people will change their votes, but if not, I hope you all feel you have the correct facts and are making an informed decision. Thank you.
 * Just to point out, my proposal goes for all games. Also, be aware that I am a she, not a he.
 * Sorry. I don't know how I would have known, but sorry for the presumption. To respond to the clarification of your proposal, bestiaries are currently only meant to be for RPG articles, and since your proposal is to not have bestiaries, than technically your proposal wouldn't extend past RPG games anyways. Redstar 09:40, 30 November 2009 (EST)
 * MATEO: Did you even read any of my points or look at any of the bestiaries there already are? They're nowhere near being a stub! Redstar 21:23, 30 November 2009 (EST)


 * BabyLuigiOnFire: What Gallery do you mean? And the Paper Mario/Bestiary isn't exactly something that can fit on its main page. Redstar 22:45, 30 November 2009 (EST)


 * I think she(BL on fire) meant the separate page of images (such as artwork and screenshot) found in articles like Wario or Luigi because I'm not too fond of it either.

I changed my vote because I realized this proposal changes nothing already done, and actually agrees with my initial position. It was just so badly presented I had no idea what Fawful was trying to get at, but in the end I realized we can both benefit from this proposal. Redstar 00:55, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Half of you need to re-vote, seeing as how this proposal is now changed to remove Paper Mario bestiaries.-- 14:20, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I was actually thinking we could change the PM bestiary to Paper Mario/Tattle Information because most of it is tattle info. Then all the hard work going into the sub article wouldn't get deleted if the most users decide to get rid of all bestiaries.
 * It's actually a bestiary that contains Tattle information. Super Mario RPG doesn't have Tattle information, but it does have Psychopath thoughts. There's a clear different, so bestiary is a broad term that works for all four games. Redstar 15:59, 1 December 2009 (EST)

@Redstar: You can't make a new option without defining it. What exactly are you opposing? Instead, make the header something specific like "Allow RPG bestiaries only". Also, since the proposal has been changed, those votes without valid reasons will be removed.
 * Okay, I'm tired. Are you telling me I need to oppose something more specific? I'll re-work my oppose just in case. Redstar 16:40, 1 December 2009 (EST)

No, you misunderstood me. I meant change the title of your section from "oppose" to an option more specific.

Ok I agree that it should only be for Paper Mario games and SMRPG, but no other games, so my proposal wa, once again, edited. Hopefully, now I won't have to edit it anymore. So everyone can change their vote or whatever.

Removals
''None at the moment.

Merge RPG Boss Aspects With Main Boss Articles
This proposal is for support of moving a particular type of boss minion (as explained below) in the RPG games to their related main boss article. This is because these particular minions are only encountered in battle alongside bosses, because their Tattle information suggests they are either a part of or actually are the boss, because the main boss article is lacking complete information, and finally, because the splitting of these minions has largely resulted in stubs.

The following are a list of which minions are proposed to be merged, to whom, and why.


 * 1) The four Elemental Crystals in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, being Fire Crystal, Water Crystal, Earth Crystal, and Wind Crystal. All but the Wind Crystal are stubs, composed of mostly only a single sentence and an enemy template. These enemies are only ever fought alongside Culex, whose article already covers most of the information these stubs have. I propose merging these articles as sections of the main Culex page and creating redirects.
 * 2) The Bowser??? article to the main Koopa Bros. article as a sub-section. This enemy is not another boss, but a different round of the Koopa Bros. battle. In fact, the Bowser??? is occupied and controlled by the Koopa Bros., making it more a weapon than an actual character/enemy. It should be noted that the Koopa Bros. article contains information on all four Ninjakoopas, rather than each of them having their own page. Merging would make this article more comprehensive.
 * 3) The Tubba Blubba's Heart article to the main Tubba Blubba article as a section. Though sentient, Tubba Blubba's heart is essentially the same character as Tubba Blubba and acts as the first round to that boss fight. Dividing them gives the impression that both are bosses, despite the fact they're the same boss, as well as treats them as different characters. The heart is more like a different personality than a character. Merging with the main Tubba Blubba page completes the article and joins together the fragmented description of the two-part boss battle.
 * 4) The Petit Piranha and Lava Bud articles with the main Lava Piranha boss article. They are only ever encountered during the boss fight with the Lava Piranha. In fact, Lava Bud's Tattle description says "Lava Buds are little flower branching out from the main stem of the Lava Piranha.". This clearly points out they're only different "heads" of the same enemy. Petit Buds are spewed from Lava Buds, making them also part of the Lava Piranha. All are really the same enemy, so they should be merged to provide comprehensive information on the singular character.
 * 5) The Tuff Puff article into the main boss Huff N. Puff article. Tuff Puffs are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Huff N. Puff, and their Tattle information even says "These are the Tuff Puffs that break off when you damage Huff N. Puff." This clearly makes them the same enemy, just different "heads". Merge as a section.
 * And, finally, the Crystal Bit article into the main boss Crystal King article. Just like all the previous examples, Crystal Bits are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Crystal King. Also, like some of the previous examples, their Tattle description says " This is a Crystal Bit. Basically, Crystal Bits are just pieces of the Crystal King. You can drop 'em with ease. Their Max HP is 1 and they're only dangerous when the Crystal King spews 'em out. Their defense power is 0. These guys are pretty weak. They'll keep coming, though, until you've finally beaten the Crystal King." This clearly says they are the same enemy, just different "pieces".

In summation, here is a quick and easy list of what this proposal will accomplish:


 * 1) Remove stubs by merging them with their main articles
 * 2) Create more complete articles by piecing together all the information in one place
 * 3) Remove unnecessary division of information

And reasons why:


 * 1) The information is divided. Putting it all in one place creates more complete articles as well as removes stubs
 * 2) Many of these divisions are enemies that are either different rounds of a boss, or just their weapon. Still others are just pieces of the boss, so aren't really a different enemy

If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to use the Comments section below. Hopefully I provided enough information to make a decision. If you agree with this proposal in general, but you don't agree with some of the merges or are wary of the reason why, feel free to comment about it and we can discuss it. This is a big proposal and I don't want anyone Opposing if they don't agree with just one aspect.

Proposer: Redstar Deadline: December 8, 2009, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - Per proposal
 * 2) First off, we'll just put their tattles in the same article. Not really any harm in that. Since those enemies are controlled of part of that enemy, they should be in the same article. So per Redstar's proposal.
 * 3) - First of all for all the opposers, they are battled at the same time, asist in the battles, and has too much information linking to the bosses. Also, do we want stubs, or articles? This is too little information for both the bosses and minions to be articles beyond stubs.
 * 4) - This would combine all kinds of useful information into one place - making it easier to access.
 * 5) - Per all, we need this!
 * 6) These are stub-like articles that are just simply part of the bosses. I think it's ridiculous that projectiles or other stuff like that used by bosses have their very own article.
 * 7) - Changed vote. I recently stumbled on Straw, which technically is part of a boss. If this proposal fails, we would have to keep that article. We'd also have to split Exor for consistency (which is literally composed of body parts). Just because an enemy can be targeted and has a tattle, doesn't mean it needs an article.
 * 8) - Per Knife, mainly. Having individual articles for different parts of the same boss/enemy seems unnecessary; it's like devoting an individual article to Corkpedite's body (or the Goomnut tree in the King Goomba battle for that matter, since it can be targeted). I see no reason not to merge them, all it would do is make getting information on the respective boss fights easier since it's all in one place.
 * 9) Lu-igi board at the very least merge the crystals with Culux
 * 10) - Per all, because, some boss battles also have more than one boss, such as the Axem Rangers, it is split into Axem Black, Axem Green, Axem Pink, Axem Red, and Axem Yellow. The Shadow Sirens is split into Beldam, Marilyn, Vivian, and Doopliss (Vivian and Doopliss are debatable). Merging Booster, with his Snifits, would also be possible. Bowletta, should be merged, with Flaret, because, Flaretts (as stated in their own page,) are not even enemies, just items. Bowser??? - Per Proposal. Adding Mario Clone, to Mario, Mallow Clone, to Mallow, Geno Clone, to Geno, Bowser Clone, to Bowser, and Taodstool 2, to Peach. Merging Aero, to Bowyer. Marging Brobot and Brobot L-Type, to Mr. L, because they are both Mr. L's weapons. etc...

Oppose

 * 1) - Different tattles, different battles, different enemy, different article
 * 2) Per Tucayo.
 * 3) - Per Tucayo.
 * 4) - The enemies you have listed there are minions of a greater boss. They are affiliated with him, they take out his orders without complaints, they even may go as far as to sacrifice themselves for him, but ther are not identical with him. We cannot just say that they are the same when there is no solid proof. On the other hand, there is evidence that they are separate beings by the different tattles! Under this circumstances, merging these articles would not be recommendable. This is why I disagree! So per me, and per Tucayo!
 * 5) - Per Tucky and Edo. They shouldn't be merged, and with all these merges, where are we going to draw a line for what needs to be merged and what doesn't?
 * 6) Per Tucayo and Edo.
 * 7) Per Tucayo and Edofenrir.
 * 8) Per Tucayo and Edo.
 * 9) - Per Edo.
 * 10) - Per all.

Comments
@Tucayo: Lava Piranha before and after becoming covered in fire gets a different Tattle description... Does this make the two different enemies? No, it doesn't, and many other enemies are of the same circumstances. Many of these proposed merges have Tattles that specifically say they are a part of, or the same being as the enemy. The different body parts of Exor aren't divided among different articles, even though they each have different stat-spreads and tattles (Psychopath Thoughts). Likewise, all of these "minions" or extensions of the main boss are fought in the same battle, not different ones. Redstar 16:51, 1 December 2009 (EST)
 * Thanks for noticing, we should split Exor.
 * Uhh, yeah. I don't think anyone's going to support splitting a character just because they have different points of attack. But if this proposal fails, I suppose it would extend to Exor. I suppose next you'll want to make individual pages for the Koopa Bros.. Redstar 16:57, 1 December 2009 (EST)
 * Of course we wouldnt split Exor, that was sarcasm. Its a single enemy.

Quote Edofenrir: "And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal." Well, yes. I go to Lord Crump's page and see a section very vague. If I want the whole story, I have to go to the Magnus Van Grapple page. Why do I need to jump around to get all the information? Magnus Van Grapple is not a character, and is not a boss... Lord Crump piloting it is, so the experience should be told from his perspective, not from an inanimate object. This proposal changes little. All it does is move all the information to one place where it is the most productive. Redstar 17:18, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Just to be absolutely clear, are you proposing that the 8 cases listed above should be merged, or that those and all similar cases should be merged?

BMB: Yea, we dont want stubs, we want artciles, so lets expand those, merging is not a good solution.
 * I'm only proposing this for these 8 specific cases. There may be similar situations, but those won't immediately be affected. They should at least be discussed on their respective pages, though, if someone deems a similar merge necessary.

@FunkyK38: The line will be drawn quite cleanly. Merges will not occur all over, rendering this Wiki a copy of Wikipedia. There will still be articles dealing with a singular topic, hotlinked from main articles. The only reason these are brought up is because they are all aspects of the same enemy, just different "attack points", so to speak. Dividing them is unnecessary and only serves in spreading information which should be read in one place. Redstar 21:58, 1 December 2009 (EST)

After reading over my list of suggested merges, I've decided that Chompy to Tutankoopa and Shy Squad to General Guy could easily be cut. They, to a degree, are individual enemies so are more on-the-fence compared to the other examples. Would anyone change their vote in favor of this proposal if these two were removed? Redstar 22:06, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Wait a sec, I'm not understanding. The Proposals page never had a removal of votes section. Why this proposal have?

Alright, now you are fighting dirty. The rule you are refering to applies only in case of bad-faith or reasons that are so blatant that the wiki cannot support them. This rule is in no way a green card for expelling other people's opinions of their value. Tucayo's vote is valid, and mine was too! Stop this attempts to rig the Proposal! -
 * The section is not simply for bad-faith votes; it is also for votes with no given reason and I'm afraid your vote falls under that category. Your vote was: And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal. I disagree. per Tucayo. Where is the reason in that? If you want Magnus Van Grapple merged with Lord Crump or not then say so but do not put it as a vote.
 * I disagree with the removal of Tucayo's vote. Nintendo is horrendously vague about so many things (Bowser vs. Dry Bowser, anyone?), so believing that a sentient heart (or whatever) is a character unto itself is a perfectly valid opinion. Tucayo belives they are separate beings - and so must the people per-ing him - and so believes they deserve separate articles; this is a perfectly valid reason to oppose this proposal. It's not misinformation, it's just one way of looking at things; you got a problem with it, take it up with him, but it's not enough to call a vote over. -

Walkazo: Until further notice there is not removal of removal of support/oppose votes nominations or comments sections. If you wish to have either of these things done then propose it here or on the admin boards but don't just go ahead and do it. I disagree with the removal of Tucayo's vote but there should be no comments placed there at all.
 * I'm sorry redstar, edofenrir's vote is valid as it pers tucayo's vote which is also valid so I will not be able to vote to remove it (thought the rest of the vote is invalid)
 * The abuse of democratic values that were given to the users of this wiki in this Proposal is shocking. This foul display of abuse to gain personal advantages utterly disgusts me. I am disappointed. -

I believe that people should be able to vote about what they think without fear of their votes being rendered, "invalid" and getting removed. The people of this wiki should be free to vote about what they see fit, and neither Tucayo or Edofenrir's votes are invalid.
 * I agree ATM but unfortunately what if I added the vote GOOD IDEA, I SUPORT LULZ!!!!!!!!!!!!? That vote would have necessary removal but, as edofenrir said, this function should be reserved for that function only - that is why I have removed my vote to remove his vote.

In the past, I saw votes saying "Good idea" that were not removed. Why these are being now?
 * The rules were changed
 * There was always a rule against votes like that, but sometimes there was simply no one around to remove them. -

How exactly is Tucayo's vote "not specific"? He's stating the fact that they are different enemies, so they get different articles. Just because he didn't write it in a textbook fashion (i.e. "They are different enemies with different tattles, thus they should have different articles") doesn't make the vote invalid. --
 * For everyone else, I don't understand what the big deal is. The option is there to remove votes, and three people voted. Obviously, two people agreed with me. That is very democratic, and Edo's vote was simply "I disagree". He should have provided a better reason then that, which he now has. As for my response to Stooben, Tucayo's vote is misleading and has two incorrect points. He states that these enemies are different, and fought in different battles. They are not. They are fought only in the same battle, and their tattles say they are part of or actually are the boss. So, he's lying. Saying their Tattles say they're different enemies is wrong. His vote has two wrong points to two valid ones, so the whole thing should be removed and, if he so chooses, re-added with entirely valid reasons. I don't want people to read his vote and think all those points are true when they're really not. If they're really such different enemies, then why do the Crystal Bits tattle say "They are pieces of the Crystal King", Tuff Puffs say "They break off from Huff N. Puff", and Petit Piranha's says "They are flowers that grow off the stem from the Lava Piranha"? Since when are pieces of my body not considering me? They also say that these different Tattles are indicative of different enemies... Well, then we should get to work splitting the different forms of Smithy and Exor, as well as any other boss that has multiple body parts and a different Tattle for each. Clearly, if my hand has a different description from my chest, they're not a part of me and different entities. They should be split for consistency. Redstar 04:45, 5 December 2009 (EST)

I will not remove neither modify my vote, because I know it is perfectly valid. In the worst of the cases, I can just per Edo ;)
 * And yet, Edo's vote is still leaving much to wonder about. What exactly is this "solid evidence"? Likewise, how is your vote "perfectly valid"? You say they're different enemies, and different battles... Why and how? I've offered undeniable evidence supporting the contrary, while your vote simply states something and doesn't back it up. I felt Edo's vote and yours lack merit, and at least for Edo's I got two votes and that of an admin. How exactly is that "rigging" it? If MATEO and MG1 were socks, yes. But they're not. They're two people that agreed, and one person with authority-bound honor... You said that I was close-minded in that chat, but you're the one that has so far refused to offer any explanation for your opinion. I've explained my reasons and revised my proposal many times over, yet I'm the close-minded one? Please, all I'm asking is for a legitimate rebuttal, and not just a disagreement. You're biding your vote for MG1's Koopa proposal below, until the difference between Koopas and Koopa Troopas is defined, so why can't you define the difference between your own reasons? Redstar 11:16, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * For the record, none of the people who voted to remove Edofenrir's vote were administrators. And even if they were, it wouldn't matter, as this does not change the weight of a vote. Also, why did you think you can remove a vote that was supported by a valid reason? The rule said that a vote has to have no merit or be cast in bad faith. You've said yourself that Tucayo's vote had some merit, so it wasn't not eligible for removal under that rule.
 * He basically said that he doesn't want to merge the articles because they deal with different individuals. I got it, many other users got it, I'm sure everyone should be able to get it. Every information you need is up there, so use your eyes and read it! If you still say you don't get it then, then you probably don't want to get it to have a point to remove it. On a side note I recommend you to learn more about democratic values, and how abusing them leads the entire system to collapse. And please, don't type a respond to justify everything (once again). Use this energy to think about what other people told you, and what you attempted to do here. If you are not ready to do that, I have nothing more to say to you. -
 * @Twentytwofiftyseven: I'm fairly sure MG1 is an admin of some sort. And Tucayo's vote holds two invalid points contrasts by two valid ones, so shouldn't that make the entire vote invalid?


 * @Edofenrir: You and Tucayo say they're different individuals, but neither of you have provided a reason as to why while I have provided their Tattle descriptions which explicitly say they are the same individual... I also know as much about democratic values as I need to, and I in no way abused them. How did I? I used a system already in place, I put up a vote, and two people besides myself voted. If I was "abusing" it, then I wouldn't have received anything. You're the one abusing it through your position of sysop and basically changed the rule to negate true democracy and put the power to remove votes only in the hands of sysops. If sysops are voting, and sysops have votes that should be removed, then how is it democratic if no one can vote? It can only be "discussed" now... And after the discussion, then what? Is there a private vote for only sysops? I don't understand how that is any more democratic than what we already had, but you claim was somehow "rigging". Redstar 12:39, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Your comment just showed me that you don't care about what other people tell you. I see no point in going on, since you don't even want to reconsider. I'm not that eager to waste my time talking to someone who won't listen. Good afternoon. -

Redstar: I am not an admin of any sort unless you mean on userpedia and could we please, as Edo said, drop this subject? The admins are coming out with an advancement on rule #4 and we just have to trust them on that; wait a couple days until the rule has come out and then propose it.
 * Edo, I don't even know what you're talking about. You keep accusing me of all these things and getting heated over a simple proposal. You're the one that's being rude and not listening... I mean, just look at the edit history. You say "Eat it" as the summary for editing your vote. Is that any way for a sysop to behave? You're supposed to be professional and courteous, yet you rudely attack me and accuse me of all these things. I'm just trying to help improve the wiki in ways I believe would be good. MG1, sorry, I thought you were one. On Bulbapedia, welcome templates are automated and any of that stuff is only handled by admins. Redstar 12:59, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Well, as admin it is my duty to be impartial, and that's why I didn't give you a warning for nominating my vote to be partially removed (which is btw the same as proposing to rewrite my vote, which is a heavy violation the rules). As a human being it is my right to be pissed to have my vote and the vote of a friend of mine assassinated by dubious usage of rule no. 4. I also have to ask you to quote correctly. I said "Eat this" in a joking way, when I rewrote my vote. And now, as MG1 said, this discussion should be ended. I suggest you to re-read what I said, what Walkazo said, and what Stooben Rooben said at your talk page. -

Redstar: as an administrator, i order you to drop this. If you continue this you will get a warning. Thanks and have a nice day.
 * You're ordering me to drop something that happened six hours ago? >_> Redstar 21:38, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Yes, I AM.
 * Why is that even necessary? I've been here for the entirety of those six hours, so it should be obvious it was already discontinued. Redstar 21:46, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Because there is no reason i could know you were here all that time.
 * The Recent changes page says which users are currently online. I'm currently online, and have been for six hours. Six hours have passed since the last comment on this page. Quite obviously, I had no intention of responding. Redstar 21:52, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Just a little pointer for everyone before this discussion is ended for good: The user list at the recent changes sometimes acts buggy and does not always acurately display who is online at that time. It's not the best source. -

@luigi-board: Would you mind expanding your reason a little? You're either entirely for it, or entirely against. Any modifications should be handled in the Comments, which I can consider for modifying the proposal. Redstar 15:39, 7 December 2009 (EST)


 * Sheesh you guys like to argue with each other! Maybe we should put a limit on how long a proposals comments section should be, since someone is making them way longer than they should be. All this about whose vote is good or not. Half the comments aren't even for the said proposal!

You can't modify a proposal that's more than 3 days old.
 * Alright, thanks for telling me.
 * And @ WaluigiGuy: I appreciate your support, but your suggestions are a little too extreme, in my opinion. Some of those should be merged, but to different articles, I think. If this passes, we'll at least discuss some of those before doing anything about them, okay? Until then, can I ask you to make your reason more in line with accepting the examples already given? I don't feel too comfortable being supported if it directly extends to other articles. Redstar 21:11, 7 December 2009 (EST)

What's a Koopa?
I think that the pages Koopa and Koopa Troopa should be merged together because, frankly, what on earth is a Koopa? The page lists all of the sub-species of Koopa Troopas and that could be done on the page Koopa Troopa or not done at all because it is not necessary. When I think of Koopa, I think of turtle enemy-thing in Mario but this page does not describe the turtle-enemy thing, it describes its sub-species and all of those subspecies descriptions are one sentence long with ! I think that Koopa=Koopa Troopa and I'm sure you will agree.

Proposer: Deadline: Friday December 11th, 2009 (8:00 EST)

Merge

 * 1) - Per above
 * 2) Per MG1
 * 3) marioguy has made a good point also, the "koopa" article is pointless, simply pointless, because "Koopa" is just another name for Koopa Troopa.

No Merge

 * 1) - No. Koopa is not the same as Koopa Troopa. Koopas are species, while Koopa Troopas are sub-species.
 * 2) The Koopa article is information on other Koopas (Hammer Bros., Dry Bones, Paratroopas) and the Koopa Troopa article is about a type of Koopa, Koopa Troopa. Look over those articles again, they are about two different things.
 * 3) - Having a catch-all Koopa page is good, since Bowser and Lakitus aren't anything like Koops or KP Koopas, but there should still be a separate "Koopa Troopa" page for the species. Saying the "Troopa" just refers to them being soldiers is just splitting hairs - are all Hammer Bros. brothers? Unlike Bowser's unnamed species, at least the little guys have a title that has been applied to their kin and no one else - unlike "Koopa" which has many meanings - and ignoring that would be foolhardy in the face of all the other organization issues Nintendo forces upon us (like Bowser's species).
 * 4) - Per Walkazo. It'd make more sense in this case (to me, anyway) to leave Koopa Troopa at it's current location, than move it to Koopa and move the current Koopa article to . Besides, "Koopas" has been used several times in Mario games to indicate the species of Koopa. (And what is "Koopas" but the plural form of "Koopa"?)
 * 5) - Per Walkazo, and Stooben Rooben.  pretty much sums up how all the arguments as well.
 * 6) - Per Stooby boy and Walka girl.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Merge unnecessary. Simply re-write the Koopa article to more clearly describe the Koopa group, rather than identifying them (incorrectly) as a species.

Comments
I was having a discussion on a similar topic just yesterday, concerning the Hammer Bros. I think the entire thing is sort of speculative since the page amounts to more than a cherry-picked list of various turtle-like enemies, entirely excluding other candidates. If it was truly extensive, it would list a lot more. But by the same token, it'd be speculation because who knows what a "Koopa" really is? The manual says "Koopa tribe", but the term "American" covers a lot of different races and ethnicities. Whether they meant "Koopa race" or "Koopa social-group", who knows. I feel a complete overhaul of the way we classify the enemies is in order. I really don't feel Boomerang Bro., Sumo Bro., Fire Bro., etc. should be considered "sub-species" of Hammer Bro. Related (as in similar, not blood-related) enemies, yes, but the current terms really deliver inaccurate connotations. Care to make this proposal a bit more general, MG1? If so, I'd be happy to support. Redstar 11:56, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * Reversinator: Aren't enemies species as well? Redstar: It's easy, Koopa and Koopa Troopa are the same thing. Koopa is like an expanded ==Sections== section for Koopa Troopa.
 * ...I guess so... Fine, I'll change my vote.

Super Mario World indeed lists Koopa Troopas simply as "Koopas" in the credits, which would suggest that only those are called "Koopas" and the enemies that aren't directly related to the Troopa are not. I don't think the Koopa article can be merged with Koopa Troopa like that however, since the majority of species listed in it are, in fact, quite clearly not Koopa Troopas. What it would need is a title change, or possibly a complete removal in favour of the Koopa Troop article.--vellidragon 12:28, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * As I said, cut the speculatory-fat and rename it "Koopa tribe" (as you were great to bring up). I'm sure there would still be speculation involved, but far less. The name issue needs to be resolved the two articles' subjects re-defined, anyways. Redstar 12:31, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * Will someone please explain to me What a Koopa is? This is why I named the proposal what I named it, because I have no idea what a koopa is. As far as I know, Koopas don't exist and are just another name used for Koopa Troopa. Whether they're listed as Koopas or Koopa Troopas in the credits, they're still the same thing and that thing can be renamed, like redstar said, after we figure out what they are.
 * I believe "Koopa", as suggested by the "Koopa tribe", is meant to encompass all the various turtle-races into a singular group. (Though, as far as we know, Piranha Plants could be Koopas as well under the "tribe") Koopa Troopas are just the catch-all, generic Koopa, which is why they can be called just Koopas. (Like in many sci-fi works, humans are so common that they're the "standard" in judging appearance and so on). I always just took the term Troopa, and thought it meant Koopa Troopas were "troopers"... Perhaps it's just a title? They're Koopas, unless they're a member of the Koopa Troop, in which case they're "Troopas". Does that make sense? Redstar 12:48, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * As far as I'm aware, "Koopa" in the Japanese games has always been no more than a name; that of Bowser, to be exact. The mention of a "Koopa tribe" and names like "Koopa Troopa" are afaik exclusive to the English localisation (Koopa Troopas for instance are named Noko-Noko in Japan, Koopa Paratroopas are Pata-Pata), and I don't think it has ever been officially stated what a "Koopa" would be according to the translators. The closest information we can get is the Koopa Troopas being referred to as Koopas in SMW's ending, which as Redstar pointed out may just as well mean they are the most common members of a Koopa tribe (which would include other sub-species as well) as it may indicate that Koopa and Koopa Troopa refer to the same thing. No real clarity seems to come from official sources.--vellidragon 13:04, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Vellidragon: That's what Koopa (disambiguation) and are for :P Redstar: All of that goes under Koopa Troop.
 * The Koopa Troop is the personal army of Bowser's (hence the "Troopa" part applied to Koopas that fight for him... Not that no Koopa that isn't sided with him has the Troopa part). The Koopa tribe would be a more broad grouping covering all Koopas regardless of political alignment. Redstar 13:49, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * I agree with you on that part but we are straying off topic here, whether Koopa Tribe should be created or not is a topic for later discussion, right now we're talking about merging two articles together and I think we should get back to that.
 * King Bean: Can you elaborate on that?

Okay, how about this: Koopa is the species name for the generic-turtle enemies in the game, namely "Koopa Troopas". "Troopa", however, is a job title or position. Koopa Troopas are members of the Koopa Troop, making them troopers. This is supported by the Koopa Paratroopas, who take their name from paratroopers, or parachuting soldiers. This suggests that normal, wingless "Troopas" are also soldiers... Also take into account the RPG games, where we get most of our information. Enemy Koopa Troopas are specifically said to be working for Bowser. Compare this to Kent C. Koopa, an enemy that works alone, and note that his Tattle information calls him simply a "Koopa". No "Troopa" part. All the non-enemy Koopas in Koopa Village and, later, in Petalburg, are simply called Koopas. It seems highly likely that the difference is Koopa is species, and Troopa is title/position, much like the various "Bros." enemies carry the weapon or technique they use as a sort of job position-title. Redstar 17:54, 4 December 2009 (EST)
 * Fawfulfury: I have read the articles over again, again and again and, whether you like it or not, Koopas and Koopa Troopas are the same thing; just because the article is a list of different types of the sub-species of Koopa Troopas doesn't make it a valid article in the slightest. I could very well put under almost every single one of those sections! The article has many tiny sections displaying stuff that, if it should be here at all, should be under . If you still believe in your cause; what's a koopa? I'll tell you what it is, it's a Koopa Troopa; that article was obviously made by someone who didn't know we had an article on Koopa Troopas already.
 * What makes that so "obvious"? I'd rather say the article was made by someone who believed "Koopa" to be a collective term for all the turtle-like enemies in the Mario games, which may or may not be true, since the games are rather vague on that.--vellidragon 12:57, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Walkazo: Would you consent to having these articles merged but a "List of Koopa Troopa Subspecies" made? Because I think most people that type in "Koopa" are looking for a Koopa Troopa and not a list of their subspecies. We could add the list of subspecies to Koopa (disambiguation).
 * No, because calling anything a "subspecies" is pure speculation: we can justify calling things like Chargin' Chucks "species" on the Koopa page because of their unique biology, but that's not the case with things like KP Koopas, Dark Koopas, Shady Koopas, Mask Koopas, here for why this is the case; it's a long essay, but I tried to make it interesting for all you non-biologists.) Why should we create a speculatively titled List page when the Koopa page is a perfectly good platform to list not only the types of Koopa Troopas, but of all Koopas, which, unlike the list-template, hasn't been done yet? The same goes for adding a list to the disambiguation page. There's a link to Koopa Troopa in the first paragraph of the general Koopa page, as well as a link to the disambiguation page, and making one extra click of the mouse is not going to inconvenience anyone looking for the Troopas. It might even teach them something about Koopas in general if they choose to read the Koopas page first - especially if we clean it up a bit. The potential value of an annotated list of Koopa species far outweighs the benefits of saving that space with a merge and using templates and categories to list things instead; my reasons why are included in the essay I linked to above (primarily in the last two paragraphs), which also has an example of what the page could look like with a little expansion. -

Can we at least establish that Koopa is not a species and that Bowser's article should not be classified as having the species Koopa? That is the real reason I made this proposal anyways...
 * Well, the Koopa page has been re-written and expanded a bit. "Koopa" is no longer presented as a species. Redstar 00:52, 6 December 2009 (EST)
 * It's not a species. It is (IMO) a fan-made subject used to describe the generic creatures carrying shells on their backs. I have no idea why we have someone categorized as one but I plan to change that.
 * I didn't say they were a species.
 * @KingBean: Koopa Troopas aren't sub-species. They're simply Koopas working as soldiers (troopers) for Bowser. This is supported by the Paper Mario Tattle descriptions.
 * @Walkazo: It's not splitting hairs, it's fact. And none of the Bros. enemies are brothers; it's a title. The comparison to Troopas is moot. Redstar 18:59, 6 December 2009 (EST)

Make a Limit for the Length of Comments on this page
Okay, I know I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but I'm going to be the one to do something about it. The proposal comments have gotten ridiculous. Comments aren't supposed to be these insanely long paragraphs that argue with what the other users may say. It takes a long time to scroll down all the comments, and then it's hard to even find where one proposal starts and one ends (At least that's the impression I get)! And it's just missing the point when half the comments in the section are not even about the said proposal! Here's what I want to do about it:
 * I'm not trying to silence other users who have a short and sweet opinion, but I want the users who drag it out too much to STOP. Comments should not be whole paragraphs like the ones above. I want to reduce the length to, let's say, 4 to 6 sentences.
 * Comments that have nothing to do with the proposal should be deleted. This includes arguments about deleting votes. That stuff should be done on Talk Pages.

Proposer: Deadline: Monday, Dec. 14, 2009 (8:00 EST)

Shorten Comments

 * 1) -Per me above.
 * 2) I completely agree with Funky!!! Removing votes comments belong on talk pages! The comments section should only be for questions and answers, and just stuff that won't make huge conversations/arguments.

Comments
Hmm... I don't know if limiting the comments to four to six sentences is the right solution... Though I fully agree with you that the comment sections have gotten very long and hard to overlook. I will think about this for a while. -
 * Well, I suppose I could change that to "not making it a huge arguement" like FF65 said above... If enough users feel that way I can change it.
 * I don't think a limit is necessary, since sometimes length is necessary to elaborate on a point. I would approve moving all Comments to respective sections on the Talk page, or a specific "MarioWiki: Proposals/Comments" page, however. Redstar 21:13, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I always thought that separate sub-pages were a good idea. I brought it up on the talk page a long time ago, but I guess it fell through.

How about a show/hide tag? Or a scrollbox?