MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Separate Wii U audio files from the ones on the GBA (Discuss) Passed
 * Split the Paper Mario boos from Big Boo into a separate article. (Discuss) Passed
 * Decide if Porcupuffers are Cheep Cheeps (Discuss) Deadline: June 16, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Seperate Payday Waystation into a separate article (Discuss) Deadline: June 18, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Merge Blurp (Yoshi's Story) with Cheep Cheep (Discuss) Deadline: June 21, 2015, 23:59 GMT
 * Merge Big Bertha with Boss Bass (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Stop using the term "sub-species" on the wiki
For pretty much the wiki's entire run, "sub-species" (or "subspecies") has been used as shorthand to denote species like Gloomba or Fire Bro from the more basic species they're derived from (i.e. Goomba and Hammer Bro), but it's high time we put and end to it, and here's why:


 * 1) It's wrong - In science, "subspecies" denotes different populations of a species that are genetically, geographically, behaviourally, and/or morphologically distinct, yet still similar enough for interbreeding to occur freely when possible. What we call "subspecies" are not actually subspecies at all: they are completely different species, whether we're comparing Lakitus to Koopa Troopas or Deep Cheeps to Cheep Cheeps. There is no reason why we should so wilfully misuse very specific scientific terminology incorrectly when there are other options available like simply "type", "variation" or just plain "species". It's not like "beta elements" where there is no umbrella term and we have to make due with what readers are most familiar with: everyone already understands what "species" means, unlike the muddled "subspecies" (which even scientists argue about).
 * 2) It's speculation - It's clear enough when things are based on other things to whatever extent, but classifying some enemies as "subspecies" instead of "species" has always struck me as presumptuous. Where exactly does the line get drawn? Some things like Koopa Paratroopas are rather basic and fundamental in their own rights, with many derived species of their own, yet are still called "subspecies". And what about things like Shady Paratroopa that could be a subspecies of Koopa Paratroopas or Shady Koopas? Only a few sets of differently-coloured/powered RPG enemies and things like the red and blue PM Spike Tops really fit the proper "subspecies" definition, but we already established that we're not using science here, so all that's left are judgment calls being passed off as hard distinctions that don't actually exist in official material.
 * 3) It's misleading - Despite the liberties we're taking with the term, "subspecies" still inherently sounds like it requires close relatedness between species (based on their names and/or appearances), but for the sake of navigation and connectivity between articles, sometimes it's useful to be able to reflect the conceptual relatedness between rather different species, such as Clubbas and Chargin' Chucks being related to the more standard Koopa species. Having relaxed terminology would make this easier (i.e. potentially avoiding some TPPs and other such discussions) and result in less cross-talk between users operating on differing definitions of "subspecies".
 * 4) It's inconsistent - As well as murky definitions and three different ways to spell the term ("subspecies"/"sub-species"/"sub species") being found across the wiki, and even side-by-side in single articles, there are also plenty of cases where single subjects are being called both "species" and "subspecies". For example, Ice Piranha Plant bears both Category:Sub-Species and Category:NSMBU Species, is listed as a "sub-species" in the Piranha Plant infobox, and is part of the "species" list in . This is not good.

Between the disconnect with how the real world uses the word, and the different definitions, applications and spellings throughout the wiki, there is really only one way to sum up the use of "subspecies" around here: it's confusing, and we should get rid of it. Specifically, we should do the following:


 * Remove all occurrences of "subspecies", "sub-species" or "sub species" from the articles. Instead, everything should be called plain "species", and described informally as being based on and/or related to other species with words like "type", "variety", "kind", etc.
 * Delete Category:Sub-Species, Category:Yoshi Sub-Species, Category:Donkey Kong Sub-Species and Category:Wario Sub-Species. The equivalent "Species" categories exist for all four cases, but ideally, game-specific "Species" categories should be used to replace everything (but that's another kettle of fish altogether).
 * Replace the "sub_species" variable in with "derived_species". At the same time, "species_origin" should be replaced with "parent_species", for the sake of uniformity (there's already a "related species" variable for similar species not directly based on or providing the basis for the subject in question) and killing two birds with one stone since we'll have to fix the infoboxes anyway; this second change is from this cancelled proposal and its corresponding forum thread (both of which debate the use of "subspecies").
 * Add "subspecies" to the list of frequently misused terms.

This will affect A LOT of articles and will take time to gradually roll out, but I think it's worth doing. There is no good reason why we need to stay inconsistent, confusing and misinformed about how we go about defining the species of the Mario series.

Proposer: Deadline: June 11, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per proposal. The zoologist half of me has wanted to eradicate this accursed term from the wiki for over seven years now. No more.
 * 2) Per Walkazo. And yes, even though the term is used to described fictional species, it still gave me misinformation when thinking about actual sub-species. That's not right. I admit I am a bit pedantic when it comes to vocabulary and jargon but honestly, I'm pedantic for the very reason of being fed misinformation, which isn't the ideal way to learn things.
 * 3) Per Walkazo and Baby Luigi. Yes, that's not right. In fact, I think it should be related spiecies instead of subspiecies.
 * 4) Per Walkazo.
 * 5) Yes, remove ALL instances of it. I was misinformed about the true definition of "subspecies" this entire time I was in this wiki. This is a personal account, but if it confuses me, it's bound to confuse a lot of other readers. This wiki leads us to think "subspecies" means a derived or related organism even though the technical term is "some differences but capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring", especially provided that the "producing fertile offspring" part is the fundamental definition of a species. In that sense, subspecies do NOT denote separate species; the basic Linnaeus names have two names, but a third one is given if it's a subspecies. "Derived species", "parent species", "related species", these are all more correct and much more precise substitutes, making them vastly superior to the vague, confusing, incorrect "subspecies". In writing, we aim for precision and accuracy, and this proposed changes does exactly what is the gold standard in writing, so, as someone who admits of being very pedantic at times (the scathing criticism to singular "they" and contractions), it's not surprising that I want these changed enacted. This time, though, it's not pedantry, it's about being precise and accurate. It's been seven years, but better late than never to undo all that damage.
 * 6) Per all, but take note of the rare few official cases.
 * 7) Per all
 * 8) Per all; a nicely crafted argument. I just find it funny that we are now debating over scientific terminology in a wiki about talking mushrooms and turtle kings.
 * 9) Per proposal. (I also notice a bit of support due to the inadvertent spread of misinformation - "Beta" is rightfully considered a misused term as well, but I really do think a better label than "Beta elements" should be considered since it's a somewhat similar situation.)
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) my younger self would hate me for this Per all.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Yes! GET RID OF IT! Walkazo is indeed correct!

Comments
@SmokedChili: We can make an exception, but it's going to break consistency, and it won't be unreasonable to assume it's another species (just how people assumed all those dark-eyed juncos were separate species), and, besides, Nintendo was very wrong about terminology before (most blatantly, the most egregious and irresponsible usage of "remix" I've ever seen in official media: Super Smash Bros. 4). 15:09, 5 June 2015 (EDT)

Commenting on the Shady Paratroopa part, I think we should just use the most basic enemy and say its a derivative (or whatever word we decide on using) of Koopa Troopa.
 * I actually feel like it'd be better to say it's a derivative of both Shady Koopa and Paratroopa, rather than listing derivatives of derivatives on the most basic pages, at that makes for some potentially unwieldy lists. -
 * Per. Spiked Gloombas can be derived from both Spiked Goombas and Gloombas, easy to list it as derived from both. 23:50, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

Super Mario Land 1 and 2 confirmed apart of the main series by Nintendo: Super Mario wiki should change accordingly
For years it has been debated whether Nintendo considered the Super Mario Land games apart of the main Mario series or not. Super Mario Wiki, and rightfully so, chose that the Super Mario Land games are not apart of the main Mario series but rather considered its own series most likely because of the Nintendo sources below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzERrLY-_9s 

As one can see, Nintendo did not include the land games as part of the main Mario series titles during Mario's 25th anniversary 5 years ago. This has lead people such as myself to believe that the Super Mario Land games are indeed apart of their own series. However, as of May 29, 2015. Nintendo has updated Mario's 30th anniversary site to include all the main series Mario titles. In this list is Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins. As shown, this is included in both the American and Japanese versions of the site.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/mario30th/index.html#/history/ http://supermario.nintendo.com/#/history/

Due to this confirmation by Nintendo, all articles on Super Mario Wiki should be changed to fit this new information. Such articles as the Super Mario Series articles should be changed to add the two Land games, and articles such as Super Mario Land Series articles should most likely be deleted entirely due to their interference of the first two Super Mario Land games being apart of the main Mario series. Other changes being the chronological order of Mario titles. An example being, changing "New Super Mario Bros. is the eighth installment in the Super Mario series." To. "New Super Mario Bros. is the tenth installment in the Super Mario series."

These things might change from time to time, but it's the company's current view that should be reflected on the articles. This is why the Super Mario Land games should now officially be considered apart of the main Mario series by Super Mario wiki.

Proposer: Deadline: June 14, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal. Due to the recent confirmation by Nintendo themselves, the wiki should have articles changed to fit this new confirmation.
 * 2) More recent stuff takes precedence. It doesn't really make sense to exclude the Land games from the main series, anyway.
 * 3) I feel like it's obligatory that we maintain the most recent official source for any information in a wiki. Right now, Nintendo considers the first two Super Mario Land games as a part of the "canon" Super Mario line of platformer games. That can change next week for all we know, and even if that does happen we have to accept the most recent official source, but this isn't something that can be ignored. It must at least be mentioned in all appropriate pages that games like Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Super Mario Land, Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island were all at one point subjectively considered a part of the main series of Super Mario games.

Oppose

 * 1) - While the 30th anniversary stuff is more recent, the fact that the 25th anniversary excluded the SML games shouldn't be ignored, and it should be kept in mind that unlike the Super Mario History 1985-2010 booklet (which is more complete than the linked-to poster and video), the 30th anniversary stuff leaves out all the remakes (i.e. SMAS and the SMA series), and the US version of the website also leaves out Lost Levels. Plus, neither celebration included all the random SMB remakes and whatnot, whereas we do need to take everything into account, from the remakes to the conflicting and ever-changing stances Nintendo takes on its material, and then organize them in the way that makes the most sense. And I still think it makes more sense to keep the SML games separate in History sections, templates and categories (this is actually a big change with far-reaching consequences being proposed here: not just Super Mario (series) and a few articles' opening lines), given how different the series is, its historic separation from the rest of the games, and most of all, the fact that the series straddles both SM and Wario Land (awkward at the best of times, but it'd be worse if no bridge series is used or acknowledged). And for all we know, the 35th anniversary will be back to separating them anyway. But I do think the SM series page should include SML (and Yoshi's Island) somehow, like how it's got the remakes listed separately - but certainly not instead of the SML series page, especially considering that WL:SML3 and VB:WL definitely aren't SM material, yet should still be grouped with the first two games somewhere, as well as in appropriate History sections (same reason why SMA gets its own series page, despite being mostly part of SM and otherwise part of Yoshi).
 * 2) Per Walkazo
 * 3) The Super Mario Land games are incredibly distinct from the "main" Mario games, mostly by dint of being developed by Gunpei Yokoi/Nintendo R&D1 rather than Miyamoto/Nintendo EAD, and our articles should reflect that. Otherwise, per Walkazo.
 * 4) Per Walkazo, in the comments and in the vote.
 * 5) Per all. While they are platformers with similar gameplay, the Land games are unique from other Mario platformers at the end of the day.
 * 6) Per all. Plus, which category will you put Super Mario Bros. 2 into?
 * 7) Judging from my argument below, it's clear to me that I'm siding with this side. An appearance in a celebration of Mario's anniversary is significant, but not enough to be a compelling reason change our core organizational structure because Nintendo decided that Super Mario Land 1 & 2 existed for once. I'll be open for another integration if Nintendo does go beyond just an anniversary game, but the mess that is Super Mario Land 1 & 2, Virtual Boy, and Super Mario Land 3, it's good as it is.

Comments
@Walkazo. Potential change does not warrant the act of keeping something the same. The wiki is to be based on current viewpoints of Nintendo which is the lore creator. It's the company's current view that should be reflected on the articles. If we were to not follow Nintendo's viewpoint, any viewpoint could be established based on the person's own imagination. "What if Nintendo decides to officially change Birdo to Ostro to avoid confusion?" This is irrelevant as it is based on what Nintendo finds true and not true. "If" cannot be a factor of whether or not we apply the land games or not. That would be based on our own assumptions and our assumptions are endless. We must use Nintendo's current viewpoint to stay relevant in the Mario franchise. If not the wiki becomes outdated with old information.
 * My point isn't that Nintendo might change their minds again, but rather, that they really doesn't give a crap about "lore", "true"ness or keeping its stories straight when it comes to Mario: they flip-flop about stuff all the time and information is often inconsistent, and as a result, the only way to maintain easy, logical organization is for the wiki to think for ourselves sometimes, like with splitting, merging and grouping enemies based on facts other than plain names, or deciding on how to organize our game pages. For in-universe stuff like the Kooplaings' paternity, our hands are tied and we need to give the new story prominence (but still mention the old story), but this is a different matter: as long as we acknowledge on all the relevant pages that Nintendo currently considers SML 1 & 2 as part of the SM series, and didn't before, whether or not we follow up with shuffling History sections, categories, lists and templates is up to us, based on whether we think it will or won't be a better way to present and organize the information. -

Whether Nintendo cares about the Mario canon or not is not for us to decide. We can mention how Nintendo used to not consider the Land games being apart of the main series, but we must also tell the reader Nintendo's current stand point. An example being starwars. The lore is changing all the time, however, the star wars wiki does not keep the old lore as canon. It mentions how it used to be canon, but supports the current standpoint of lucas film if we like it or not. There is much Mario lore that Nintendo has dropped that has been official in the past. This is not a situation like the koopalings where the creator of Mario says they are not Bowsers kids, but this is the whole company of Nintendo saying that the Super Mario Land games are indeed apart of the main series. Both in Japan, and all over the World. I know it sounds like a lot of work for us to have to update so many articles. If there is official information with no way to disprove it, it CANNOT be denied. All official Mario information must be used in Mario wiki. One could argue that the past has more info, but that does not make it relevant. Over time things become outdated and it is Nintendo that updates it. We must accept what Nintendo updates.

@Walkazo - I'm not completely confident in either choice right now, but remakes/rereleases were never a necessary mention in official celebrations since it's understood that they're not exactly the original titles (we certainly don't count them as such, either), so I'm not sure why they're factored in the counter-argument... (I must say, Super Mario 3D Land makes sense with its namesake included.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:54, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty- Indeed, the remakes have never been mentioned to be apart of the main Super Mario titles. As we all know, Super Mario Land 1 and 2 are not remakes of any main series Mario game. Unless someone has any evidence to prove that Super Mario Land 1 and 2 are not apart of the main series, and since Nintendo has stated they are apart of the main series as of now, it is only right to have Super Mario wiki state the same.


 * My point is that what works for Nintendo for their celebration stuff doesn't necessarily work for us, since they're cherry-picking lists of showy platformers while we're trying to document every single game and present all that info in the clearest way possible. They already cut out plenty of remakes and obscure games that we can't, and they don't need to worry about awkward things like SML and SML2 having a direct sequel (WK:SML3) that's also the start of a separate series, and another followup that never got finished (VB Mario Land) and wouldn't've fit in either SM or WL anyway. As long as we're basing out decisions on facts, we're allowed to make judgment calls when splitting, merging or reclassifying iffy enemy situations and whatnot, and similarly, we're also allowed to think outside the box a bit when it comes to dealing with iffy series situations. Like I said in my vote, the first two SML series games should be acknowledged on Super Mario (series) (that page is missing a lot of remakes too, but I digress), but they should remain separate when it comes to overall wiki organization. (On a side note, my guess is that SM3DL is the reason why the games are included this time around, unlike in 2010, although besides the name, like every other SM game, it has nothing to do with SML or its sequel at all.) -
 * Yeah, you do have a point in how Nintendo cannot celebrate all Mario games they acknowledge into one anniversary game, or they'll be here all day. But that they picked Super Mario Land out of all games alongside games like Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario World, and even the forgotten Super Mario Bros. 2 does feel significant. As of now, however, I'm still supporting still holding out how Nintendo really treats Super Mario Land. This is a rather big change that will affect the corresponding history section, so I feel like acting carefully is the best decision to make when it comes to this. Still, Super Mario Land being placed alongside the other major games still means something... 23:48, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

Then when do you propose is the right time? Nintendo did say that they would talk more about Mario's 30th anniversary during E3 2015, so maybe till then? I do not think we should wait to long on this. We cannot wait another 10 years to see if Nintendo still counts the land games as apart of the main series because that would make this wiki outdated. Although it is very understandable to be questioning if Nintendo will keep it apart in the future or not, it is very important to keep the wiki up to date on Nintendo's standpoint. We must focus the wiki on Nintendo's understanding. If not we would not have a wiki based on Nintendo's Mario, but rather a wiki based on what we want Mario to be. I know it is a lot of work and a huge overhaul for the wiki. Though it is very important for the readers to know about this information Nintendo has provided us. To ignore it based on our assumptions is not fair. The sooner we start editing, the more our readers know more about this information.


 * I'm on the fence. If this Super Mario Land categorization feels isolated, in other words, continues to feel discourse, as I said, it's a lot of work. I'd wait for perhaps one or two more years (not ten, where did you get that figure from?); as the Super Mario Land games are heavily disjointed from the mainstream games, more so than Super Mario Bros. 2, this work we're proposing would essentially be a waste of time and effort for our editors. And no editor would like that. I think the categorization works as it does, although I do admit that the organization is still an issue, but, logical and convenient organization sometimes works over company ideals, especially when the company can be all over the place with the Mario games. I don't think you've really refuted 'kazo's points though, as you've just reiterated what you said earlier.


 * "We must focus the wiki on Nintendo's understanding."
 * Nintendo's understanding is putting the Super Mario Land games in the same series as Super Mario series. This is the only evidence in favor of reorganizing the info, and we have several reasons to keep Super Mario Land as separate: very disjointed, obscure game, hardly any reappearances from enemies to worlds to music in the future games, and that it was left out of an anniversary game that was very limited in itself does mean something. This is why I'd rather wait and see any future actions of what Nintendo might do to the Super Mario Land series.


 * "Rather a wiki based on what we want Mario to be"
 * No, we're not saying that we're writing the Mario series as how we interpret; we're saying that we and Nintendo have different methods of organization, and Nintendo hasn't had this problem because they aren't and, so far, never required to cover the Mario series in the same scope as us.


 * " Though it is very important for the readers to know about this information Nintendo has provided us. To ignore it based on our assumptions is not fair."
 * We shouldn't be ignoring it, but my biggest problem with this proposal is changing long-established structure because "it appeared in a Mario anniversary game". Of course, that game is fairly significant, but I don't think it proves a lot. I did say it meant something for Super Mario Land to appear alongside the bigger games, but so far, it's one game. 15:44, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

Obscurity is not an excuse and can be subjective based on the person. One could argue that Super Mario bros 2 (U.S.A) is too obscure to be considered a main series Mario title, though we all know it is. Another example being Super Mario Sunshine. Very different environment, no standard Mario enemies (Koopas, Goombas, etc), and a very different gameplay mechanic involving F.L.U.D.D. Although these two games are very different from other main series Mario titles, they are still apart of the main series. Even with their mass differences, they all keep the same design, they are platformers. Super Mario land 1 and 2 are both platformers that follow heavily on the 2d Mario aspect. Mario still grabs mushrooms, still defeats enemies, still fights bosses, and completes levels in similar manner to the other Mario games.

This is not a simple anniversary game, this is an entire celebration recognizing that the Super Mario Land games are apart of the main Super Mario series. Posters, commercials, and celebration videos will all recognize this. For Nintendo to recognize these games for Mario's 30th anniversary celebration is huge. Saying it is all apart of one small game is a little extravagant. Please don't take this as rude in anyway, as I don't want to offend anyone, but fear of a lot of work shows laziness. Although it is a lot of work, it is our job to tell our readers. If it will take 1-2 years to tell our readers. We can at least delete absolutes, such as "Super Mario Land is not considered apart of the Super Mario series." As shown on the Super Mario Land (series) article.

"not ten, where did you get that figure from?" What I said was not actually sarcasm. My estimates are based on when Mario's 40th anniversary occurs. As Nintendo will most likely bring back up the main series on Mario's 40th anniversary, it makes sense for me to think that the wiki would wait that long to see if Nintendo confirmed it again. You could argue that I could have just said 5 years based on Mario's 35th anniversary. But the chances of Nintendo celebrating this big again are more low and is not as big as a 40th anniversary.


 * Well, a lot of the weird SMS things got incorporated into the both subsequent SM games and the series at large, like Petey Piranha, Bowser Jr., Toadsworth, Gooper Blooper, Piantas, Cataquacks, FLUDD references and Isle Delfino locations in spinoffs. SMS also included a few regular enemies, like Bob-ombs, Bullet Bills, Boos, Chain Chomps, Pokeys, Bloopers, Cheep Cheep, a Monty Mole boss, Peach as the damsel-in-distress, and Bowser as the final boss. By contrast, SML has Mario, (Super) Mushrooms, Star(men) and nothing else, with nothing recurring save for Tatanga in SML2 and Daisy reappearing in spinoffs only, with possible but unconfirmed Sarasaland locations to go along with her sometimes. SML2 is better off in the using-recurring-enemies department, even a bit better off than SMS, but it still doesn't add anything to the SM series, unlike SMS which was clearly embraced as from the start. The only thing it did was add Wario to the series, and the first thing he did was launch his own spinoff series with Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3, which really just emphasizes why subsuming SML into SM is a bad idea: it has as much to do with WL as the SM games, and reflecting that bridge existence by keeping it separate from both is the least awkward way to try and deal with it (with WL:SML3 either being with the rest of WL or the rest of SML depending on the content in question - but it certainly wouldn't do to put it with SM, ever). You can ignore SML and SML2 and the rest of the series will stay exactly the same (and so far, we have ignored it without issue), but the same can't be said for any of the other non-remake games; even Lost Levels added new stuff, like Luigi's different jump mechanics. -
 * Obscurity is not an excuse and can be subjective based on the person. While it is true that obscurity can be subjective, what is generally known is that the Super Mario Land are a far deviant from any Mario game, and it rarely gets mentioned in other Mario games, hence why it's perfectly appropriate to say they're obscure. The term "obscure" is a relative term regardless, and using it to describe the Super Mario Land series in comparison with other Super Mario games is reasonable considering that, as Walkazo has stated, has been barely referenced throughout the entire realm of the Mario series whereas the rest of the Super Mario games have at one point. The Super Mario platformers are a highly popular and well-known brand, the Super Mario Land, while it could be about as popular, isn't remarkable as well known as any other entry of the Mario series, and is extremely deviant from it, is fine to be its own separate thing. Walkazo has already proposed a solution to this muddy categorizing and I agree with her on using that. 23:15, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

Although Super Mario Land 1 and 2 have had less of an impact with less references, to say the Land games did nothing to add on to the Super Mario series in the future is false. Such example as the director of Super Mario Galaxy 2 and Super Mario 3D Land, in an interview with IGN. Koichi Hayashida (the director) said that when Mario shoots a fireball in Super Mario 3D Land it bounces off the wall. He said this was taken from Super Mario Land as he had so much fun having the "Super Ball" bounce off the wall in the game. Interview can be read below.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/12/making-mario-magic-the-interview

Even easter eggs have occurred from Super Mario Land. An example being in Super Mario 3D Land, one can see a flying saucer believed to be Tatanga flying through the sky. Easter egg can be seen in video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwnedFs8I8

Impact cannot be a factor whether or not the Land games are included. If Nintendo refers to the Land games as part of the main series then it should be so. Development team can also not be used as a counter argument because many other Nintendo franchises have done the same. Although the Land games were not made by EAD, that is not a counter argument. The Legend of Zelda games oracle of ages and oracle of seasons were made by Capcom, yet Nintendo refers to them as apart of the main Zelda series. If one could use the argument of impact, then oracle of ages and seasons should not be apart of the main Zelda series because it has had little to no references in future games. Another example being Metroid. Many teams have worked on Metroid such as EAD, Retro Studios, and Team Ninja. Many of these arguments cannot be used against why the Land games should not be included.

btw, @Walkazo- I can already tell we are going to be big rivals on this wiki XD.


 * That is hardly any influence to the Mario series other than an extremely minor nod and a speculative Easter Egg. Hardly anything from Super Mario Land 1 & 2 has been put in later Mario games, down right to the music. Walkazo is correct: Super Mario Land is a heavily disjointed Mario game with no impact in most Mario games. It's great that it has its section in an anniversary game, showing that Nintendo hasn't completely ignored it, but based on how little impact it has made, it might not even exist. :/ No, we editors aren't pretending it didn't exist or it's a "fake" Mario game.


 * In this case, impact on the entire series is a good indicator on how the Land games should be grouped. Nintendo hasn't had any official word on it, so we're left to organize with our own standards. Unlike Mario, The Legend of Zelda games have an established canon, and the Oracle of Ages and Seasons games are included within the official timeline; all Mario games are ambiguously canon, even Hotel Mario and Mario is Missing, even though those aren't acknowledged by Nintendo. We're not using developer teams as an argument here (except for l337star, who brought it up, but that's a reason the games are so distinct rather than "it's developed by these guys, so it's a different game"; his argument still has problems, but it's not my main thrust) and I wasn't intending to either. As we stated, Nintendo doesn't need to cover the Mario series in the same scope as we do. As for your argument "fear of a lot of work shows laziness", you're oversimplifying it. What I'm arguing is this proposal is, as I stated earlier is "this proposal is changing long-established structure because 'it appeared in a Mario anniversary game'." It's not a very compelling reason for me or other editors apparently, to start devoting hard work. We will devote hard work to wikis, if you see from our previous proposals. Finally, the final argument is how we have Super Mario Land 3, which is the first game in a new nonMario series. You haven't proposed any solutions to that potential problem if we have the Super Mario Land games integrated into the same section as Super Mario Bros. 2. It might be convenient for Nintendo to select only Super Mario Land 1 & 2 to showcase that "yeah, they exist", but we have to consider all three Super Mario Lands and that's a problem for us.


 * In the meantime, it's good you're here for a discussion because it's not very often we have a user willing to go on long debates. :) 00:49, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

I should be in bed, but I love my Mario talk so here comes another novel XD.

Once again, influence is subjective. How much we say somthing influences something else to determine if it fits with something is always debatable. Either way, influence should not be a counter argument. Something could be influential or not at all, but that does not make it any less relevant. Yes the Land games have many elements that are different. But at it's core it still plays very much like any standard Mario game.

"The Legend of Zelda games have an established canon, and the Oracle of Ages and Seasons games are included within the official timeline; all Mario games are ambiguously canon." This is not true if Nintendo themselves say Super Mario Land 1 and 2 are canon. Which they are. According to the Hyrule historia, it says that Nintendo may change the Zelda timeline at any time. So Zelda does not have a completely established canon either.

As for a solution for Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3. We can treat it like we do with Yoshi's island : Super Mario world 2. We obviously do not have a "Super Mario World series" article. We have a Yoshi series article and "Super Mario World 2" is in it. We can just leave Super Mario Land 3 (Wario Land) in the Wario Land series article and delete the Super Mario Land Series article to put the Super Mario Land games in the main series article. There would be no need for their own section as other main series Mario titles are series with in themselves as well. The Super Mario Galaxy series, the New Super Mario Bros series, the Super Mario Bros series, the 3D series, etc. Despite these all being a series with in a series, there is no need for a "Super Mario Galaxy" series article because it is apart of the main series.

Glad you like having me debate. If there is no one to challenge anything, things don't always progress. That is why I, the biggest Mario nerd is here.
 * Just as long as we nerds have a civilized debate, I'm fine for that. In fact, I need to go to bed sometime soon. I really don't like one-sided proposals because I fear group-think may take over, and that's bad. :)


 * Influence is subjective, but also relative. We measure influence on how it has impacted future Mario games in terms of appearances and mechanics in later games; let's work from that. Super Mario Land, in that definition, has little influence on future Mario games. Its soundtrack (like its first level), is catchy, but unrecognizable. The invincibility theme is the can-can theme. We have sea dragons shooting fireballs, zombie Pionpis from the Chai Kingdom; the games look and sound very exotic. Oh, Super Mario Land is still a relevant game, don't get me wrong, but it's an obscure game by Mario standards; if it wasn't relevant, we wouldn't be having this argument! Anyhow, why can't we use influence as an argument? We sometimes use consistency and logic for our approach for organization, and Super Mario Land 1 & 2, being very different games, we use that kind of approach, especially with Nintendo's very minimalist approach with the Mario canon.


 * Speaking of Mario canon, I haven't stated that Super Mario Land 1 & 2 aren't canon. I meant to the say that the entire Mario series, subseries and all, has no established canon, so all games/comics/TV shows/film have ambiguous canon, although some subseries have their own set of continuity, most notably, Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi. Meanwhile, while Link timeline is, of course, subject to change as Nintendo sees fit, it's still far more established than the Mario canon, so it's clearer which game is canon and which game isn't. Again, subject to change, but it's unlikely Nintendo is going to overhaul The Legend of Zelda 's rather convoluted timeline any time soon. It's a different argument from what we're talking here, though, but just throwing it out, and I'm not going to go further into that one. It's in another castle.


 * The issue is that we can easily separate the two games; two games isn't quite enough to make it a series while three games are. Two games are simply a game and its sequel. Your proposal would be an easy solution if Super Mario Land were two games, but it's three games, so Super Mario Land 3 has to be included with the first two games because of the title (it's a horrible title, I agree) and not to confuse our readers. I understand where you're coming from, though, as I do want to incorporate Super Mario Land into the main Mario games because they are indeed 2D Mario platformers, and Nintendo has never acknowledged them as spin offs, so perhaps they are technically mainstream games, but I'm also uncomfortable on defining them as "mainstream" games because of their little impact and very self-contained continuity. They do look like weird bootlegs from another planet if you think about it, due to how it's been pushed to obscurity and hardly any Mario game, if at all, references them, and it's only now that they've been actually mentioned in an anniversary game. 02:36, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Though let us not forget that influence is not only the use of future elements, but also by the influence of the player. I could argue that the impact and influence of Super Mario Land 1 and 2 have been huge on players across the world. In fact, you say they're so obscure, yet Super Mario Land is the 4th best selling Mario game of all time selling a whopping 18.14 million copies and the sequel being the 10 best selling at a huge 11.18 million. If we were to use the argument of impact (which I argue there is none), Super Mario Land is still regarded among millions of people and still remembered and being bought to this day via 3ds e-shop. If the land games were indeed so obscure...

1. No one would remember them (though millions including us do) 2. It would not have sold very much at all (18 million is huge) 3. People would not be buying it today (yet thousands still do via eshop)

So I find the value argument invalid because the Land games have a huge influence on gamers and Nintendo alike. You may argue that the impact of the games have worn off and not as many people remember it, however, this is not true as modern videos such as bentalfloss's have shown that videos on Super Mario Land gets millions of views even to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAtWQ_xn0kI


 * And Brentalfloss's Dr. Mario video has 3 million more views - doesn't mean we're gonna make that part of the central SM series too. Not including SML in the SM series isn't saying it's not "canon" or a bad game that no one cares about or anything like that, it's just wiki organization, based on the subject matter of the game, the name, the conflicting info Nintendo pumps out over the years, and the context of the other games. Also, just off the top of my head, seeing as Mario only appears in WL:SML3 it makes more sense to lump it in with the rest of the SML games rather than making a separate WL series History subsection. The three games are also one of the few cases of explicit continuity in the entire Mario franchise, with each game directly referencing the events of the previous game, including WL:SML3, so it is important to have a series page linking the three games together under one roof. Plus there's the fourth, unfinished game, VB Mario Land, which wouldn't fit in either SM or WL series pages, and which is the exact sorta thing which shouldn't be left to wallow without a parent series (or a convenient place in History sections for a "this almost happened too btw" aside), since that'll be the only way most readers will probably hear about it at all, and spreading info is kinda what we're here to do. -

You are contradicting yourself. Your counter argument for why the Super Mario Land games should not be apart of the main series, despite what Nintendo says, was that it is not relevant (or not relevant enough) through influences to count. That is what you said correct? Then if I am not mistaken, when I proved that the Super Mario Land games do have enough impact, you counter by saying Dr. Mario is also relevant. Dr. Mario is never referred to Nintendo as being apart of the main series at all (as we know very well).

Since I proved that Super Mario Land has enough impact, and since we know Nintendo says they are apart of the main series. You are now saying they can't because of organization? I believe I gave a solution to the organization problem. If you want to use organization as a counter argument, you must counter my solution and why my solution does not work. If not, then you have nothing to counter with, which in turn means you have no means of viable information to argue with.

If I am able to completely and successfully counter you, then that means you do not have a good reason to vote. I may be mistaken but according to the rules, if you do not have a good reason, your vote does not apply. And all those saying "per Walkazo" do not have a vote either because they do not have a good reason (if your reason is not good that is). Once again, I believe if I am able to counter all of your arguments, then your, and everyone else's vote that applies to you, does not count. Please address me if I am mistaken by this rule.


 * Why are you saying that Super Mario Land 1 and 2 are not the main series of Nintendo? That is not true. Plus, your arguments are not going to change anyone's votes. It's our own choice to vote what we want to vote.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 14:20, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * They're an important part of the overall Mario franchise/series, but not the specific, central Super Mario series. Same with Dr. Mario, although my point there was more that popular parody YouTube videos are a poor way to measure relative importance of any given game. I mean, the most popular Mario meme is Weegee, yet no one's saying Mario is Missing! is a seminal work of gaming art. You're not countering my opinions, just offering different opinions; people so far seem to share my opinions more than yours, and for that perfectly valid reason, they are voting "per Walkazo". Lucky for me, unlucky for you, stop whining about it - that's how proposals work. -

I find the comment "whining" to be inappropriate for this situation. Whether I contradict your arguments is not up to you or me, but up to an administrator. If an administrator finds that I do indeed disprove your argument, then it will have to be accepted (according to rule 5). Although right now you do have the more popular vote, that is true, ideas of popularity does not make the idea right. An example when everyone once thought the world was flat. You have also been on this wiki as opposed to me who is new, which could in turn give a biasness to your character rather then the problem at hand.

"They're an important part of the overall Mario franchise/series, but not the specific, central Super Mario series."

Tell me, how are they not apart of the Main Super Mario series?
 * Ok, stop there. I'll disprove your "everyone believed the world is flat" argument right there. Even that analogy is not correct at all. The Ancient Greeks always believed that the Earth was round, and even calculated the Earth's circumference. The educated Europeans believed that the world was round too. Hell, Columbus didn't sail to the Americas to prove it was round, he and the Spanish government who funded it already was well aware the Earth was round. It was the uneducated who thought it was flat, but honestly, they couldn't care less regardless it was that or that. I could argue the same with the geocentric vs heliocentric theory theory, and why the Galileo gambit doesn't work when trying to disprove an argument that appeals to popularity, but I'd go off in a tangent.
 * Walkazo IS an admin here, in case you hadn't realized. She's an admin who disagrees with you. Hell, she's a bureaucrat, a step above a sysop. However, you don't need to be an admin to come up with sound arguments. If you come up with sound arguments, more people will side with you.
 * Lastly, this isn't an appeal to popularity. This is us agreeing with Walkazo's rationale rather than yours.
 * By the way, Tell me, how are they not apart of the Main Super Mario series?. I thought we explained to you how it's deviant from the Super Mario series and hasn't been referenced. The overall Mario franchise means the entire Mario series while the "Super Mario" series refers to the platformers such as Super Mario Bros., Galaxy, etc. 15:34, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * It is a Mario Game. You are overreacting, this is not really something to complain about. Like Walkazo said, this is what proposals are about: voting on your opinion. Please stop arguing. It is important in the Mario series so it should just stay as it is. PowerKamekSig.jpg

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 15:29, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * PowerKamek, please don't stifle reasonable debate by handwaving that it's a children series of video games. Ok thanks. 15:35, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

I am a Mario nerd. That is what we do, over care about Mario :p. You have no opposition to deny my reason. Since you don't, I have every reason to continue. That is how proposals work. One proposes, one denies, one challenges the denied with a counter to move forward their proposal, and if one finds a problem with their counter, they counter back. This continues until the opposed or the proposed is proven wrong, or until the time for debate is expired. As far as I know the talk for this proposal has not expired. I still await my counter.

So I ask specifically, how are Super Mario Land 1 and 2 not apart of the Main Super Mario series?
 * They aren't. We've said a million times they're not because *insert reason* here. Go look at Walkazo's support again and some of her comments, she's highlighted exactly why they don't fit in the main Super Mario series. 15:41, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

@PowerKamek Fair enough on the world is flat analogy, I should have used another example. But to continue the overall debate.

"I thought we explained to you how it's deviant from the Super Mario series and hasn't been referenced. The overall Mario franchise means the entire Mario series while the "Super Mario" series refers to the platformers such as Super Mario Bros., Galaxy, etc."

According to my counter I have proved that it is referenced. I have also countered that references do not qualify it being apart of the main Mario series. Could you reiterate why these arguments of mine are wrong?
 * Your only proof is simply, "Nintendo put it in their anniversary game". Walkazo has already dismantled that argument on why it doesn't work, considering how Nintendo is inconsistent with their claims at points. I'd argue that references to other Mario games DO qualify as it being apart of the Mario series. Every single game in the Mario series except for Super Mario Land has referenced each other at least once. What does Super Mario Land have? The physics of the super ball? That UFO that is so-called "Tatanga's Ship" as if all generic UFOs are Tantanga's Ship? We've already countered all of your points at this point, you're just reiterating it again and claiming victory. Daisy, who wasn't brought back to reference Super Mario Land? As Walkazo said, it eventually branched off and became Wario Land, it makes more sense to make it its own series primarily because it generated a sequel where Wario was the main character. Your arguments aren't wrong, but they're weak. 15:58, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * "Though let us not forget that influence is not only the use of future elements, but also by the influence of the player. I could argue that the impact and influence of Super Mario Land 1 and 2 have been huge on players across the world."


 * We're arguing about Nintendo's view on the series and our organizational standards. Please stick it to that. People can easily integrate Super Smash Bros. into the Mario series "canon", and Smash Bros. does seem like a game that would be part of a Mario anniversary game. Smash Bros. even had more of an influence in the series because of Luigi's moves in Mario Sports Mix and Mario & Sonic. What we're arguing is its impact on the series, not its sales numbers. Hotel Mario is famously bad. A lot of people know about that game or at least the Mario nerds, but it in itself has extremely little impact in the Mario series asides from a cute minigame name (Hotel Goomba). It has even less of an influence than Super Mario Land, but I honestly think Hotel Mario is more infamous than Super Mario Land is famous.


 * "Since I proved that Super Mario Land has enough impact, and since we know Nintendo says they are apart of the main series. You are now saying they can't because of organization? I believe I gave a solution to the organization problem. If you want to use organization as a counter argument, you must counter my solution and why my solution does not work. If not, then you have nothing to counter with, which in turn means you have no means of viable information to argue with."


 * That's our argument from point one: the wiki organizational structure. As I repeat myself here, we're changing a core organizational structure here simply because Super Mario Land 1 & 2 appear in an anniversary game. A mention in an anniversary game is quite significant, but Nintendo has to cherry-pick and showcase several aspects of the Mario series; they leave out a lot of games, and even smaller series like Mario Kart, they have the Mario Kart arcade games left out (Mario Party has its own set of arcade games, but they're more like ports from Mario Party 5 and 8). My sister has been proposing splitting the Mario Kart arcade games in the similar way Super Mario Land is for the same reasons: it's a disjointed game with little-to-no-impact in the Mario Kart series. You haven't proved at all that it has impact other than personal experience and sales figures. We've been talking about influence within the Mario games and you were defining it to mean sales figures and player base (and that's relative; try conflating that with Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Galaxy). That has some relevance to our wiki, but its long-term influence helps us determine how integrated within the mainstream Mario games it is. And it's not really.


 * "I find the comment "whining" to be inappropriate for this situation. Whether I contradict your arguments is not up to you or me, but up to an administrator. If an administrator finds that I do indeed disprove your argument, then it will have to be accepted (according to rule 5). Although right now you do have the more popular vote, that is true, ideas of popularity does not make the idea right. An example when everyone once thought the world was flat. You have also been on this wiki as opposed to me who is new, which could in turn give a biasness to your character rather then the problem at hand."


 * From my experience, debates don't work like that. The voting system might not be the best system since it can be so one-sided sometimes, and it's determined by sheer numbers rather than discussion, but in the long run, compelling changes do happen. You're misinterpreting our rules, which removes arguments only if they're wholly non sequitor and nonsensical; people will find your interpretation to argument akin to censorship or taking down a straw man and then removing the vote. Outright removing voting will have flaws too, since some debates go on for way too long. That being said, I'm still not convinced by your arguments, and by arguing with you further, I'm inclined to side with the janitor (my playful jargon for "admin", by the way). The main reason Walkazo is getting votes is that she makes well-thought-out arguments (I'm not a janitor like her either, just an experienced user, and I do quite frequently get perred, not all the time though; heck, I've argued with Walkazo before).


 * "According to my counter I have proved that it is referenced. I have also countered that references do not qualify it being apart of the main Mario series. Could you reiterate why these arguments of mine are wrong?"


 * One negligible bouncing fireball mechanic and a dubious "cameo" does not an influential game make. References alone do not qualify, but we're talking about overall long-term impact, not easter eggs or relevance or if it's a "true" Mario game. 16:00, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * To add to the last "reference" bit, plenty of inarguably non-SM games are referenced by the main series too, so the existence of SML refs, while worth considering, doesn't automatically invalidate the opposition position at all. And on that note, for the record, when proposers make it clear that they're ignoring the opposition's points, stop making new arguments and resort to ignorant and insulting gambits like "well, you're just wrong and everyone who mindlessly agrees with you should have all their votes removed too", all the while moaning in the edit summaries about how it's taking so long and gonna be so hard for them to win, then yes, it is "whining", so I stand by what I said earlier, in case anyone else questions my judgement on that matter. -
 * Yeah, those are called red herrings, the creation of new seemingly relevant opinion and arguments that divert the original argument. Thenintendostooge, debates are always hard to do, but you have to acknowledge that the opposing side has a valid viewpoint and a patience meter, and they think their side is superior to yours as you think yours is to theirs. That inherent bias makes it extremely difficult to win each other over, but the point of this debate is to perhaps convince those "on-the-fence" rather than each other. 16:24, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

@Baby Luigi- (btw, it is going to take a while to respond to all of you if you all respond at once so be patient ok? :) "Nintendo put it in their anniversary game". Wrong, I did not argue that. The games are not appearing in any anniversary game AT ALL. It is on the official Super Mario bros 30th anniversary website, not a game.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/mario30th/index.html#/history/

"Every single game in the Mario series except for Super Mario Land has referenced each other at least once." Please tell me why it is required for there to be an reference if Nintendo says it is official on their website?
 * Ok, so it wasn't a game, it was a website.....so how does that take down my point at all? Oh wait, it really doesn't.
 * We already told you, please reread our arguments. 16:18, 9 June 2015 (EDT)
 * As we said multiple times, "One negligible bouncing fireball mechanic, a dubious "cameo", and a mention in an anniversary site do not an influential game make, especially when the previous anniversary has left out said game. References alone do not qualify, but we're talking about overall long-term impact, not easter eggs or relevance or if it's a "true" Mario game." Okay, my original argument had slightly different words, but it's not a different argument. 16:28, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

@Walkazo- "To add to the last "reference" bit, plenty of inarguably non-SM games are referenced by the main series too, so the existence of SML refs, while worth considering, doesn't automatically invalidate the opposition position at all."

How is it fair to say it needs relevance, but to criticize me when I try to prove its relevance by saying non confirmed games are relevant as well? The difference between the games you are trying to list is that the relevance is not used by Nintendo. Super Mario Land is.

"stop making new arguments and resort to ignorant and insulting gambits like "well, you're just wrong and everyone who mindlessly agrees with you should have all their votes removed too", all the while moaning in the edit summaries about how it's taking so long and gonna be so hard for them to win, then yes, it is "whining"..."

First off, it is wrong to quote what I never quoted such as "well, you're just wrong and everyone who mindlessly agrees with you should have all their votes removed too". I never said that. Second, I never insulted anyone, I am trying to have a fun clean debate here. Third off, I am not making new arguments to avoid other ones. As you can see, all of my counters have been to counter your ideas, not to start new ideas. Fourth off, I am not moaning, I am countering which I have every right to do. Fifth, I never "whined" how about how long for this debate to go on. Honestly I find it fun. I find that you are being very hurtful so lets go on a good note and debate over the proposal at hand. :)


 * Don't take it personally, but we've been trying to counter your arguments too, and, as I said, both of us have a patience meter. Walkazo viewed your edit summaries not very positively, and I can't say I disagree. That being said, I've already gone over that you've misunderstood the rules. The problem is that from what you're saying, you think you're winning the argument and "illogical votes should be removed". I've already explained that our rules don't work like that. 16:55, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * Walkazo is not wrong; and all of our votes should'nt be removed just because you think you're right and we're wrong.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 16:38, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

@Everyone I have noticed some people have gotten a little upset with me (as most people do). Sorry if I offended you in any way. I am just trying to defend my proposal. I am new to this site and I feel rather hurt right now (I am a touchy guy). I just want to improve this wiki. So don't feel like I am against you. If there are too many people who do not like me I will delete my account. ;-;
 * We're not offended, but I personally feel we're not really advancing in this argument. Don't take it personally, but I think whatever feeling you're getting from Walkazo and I and several other users is simply the ebbing patience within this argument. Just look how long this comments section is. But again, we've tried refuting your points and we view you as bringing up new points that are not relevant to the original debate. There are a lot of other things in the wiki you can do right now, but we're not going to ban you or label you as a heathen any time soon. It's just your argument we feel is weak; we're not hating on you. :/ I've successfully and unsuccessfully argued with people like Walkazo before, so just consider this debate as part of a much bigger learning process. 16:53, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

I just suppose I am a little disappointed and sad. I have been reading this wiki since I was 12 (I am 17 now). I thought when I joined this wiki I would make friends, that's all. I thought I could find others like me that love the Mario franchise so much that they would talk about anything Mario. I just feel I am turning you against me. I don't want to be hated or seen as stupid because someone disagrees with me. I want to make friends and have fun. I just feel... really hurt right now and I don't know if I belong here :(.

If anyone would still like to debate, I am open but it seems I can't sway anyone. When the proposal expires I will wait 4 weeks repurpose it (I think that is the amount of time you have to wait to repropose right?) Because I am such a stupidly touchy person, I would rather not have any mean arguing and hurtful comments. Thank you.
 * If you're going to repurpose it, chances are, it will get shot down the same way again unless you can offer a sound rationale on why we should support it. Also, don't take any of these personally. I don't hate you. The only users I hate on the site are wandals and trolls. 17:26, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

@BabyLuigi- I believe that if Nintendo confirms it is should. I suppose we will have to wait until the idea of the Land game being in the main series list become more apparent. Not today, but some day the wiki will place the land games in the main series list. This might have come up really suddenly by Nintendo. So it might take the wiki a couple of years to change enough for the wiki grasp the task. Slowly but surely. I just made enemies out of Mario players like me. That is really hurtful to me for some reason. Maybe I am overreacting but I just feel so sad right now.
 * To be blunt, you pretty much are overreacting. This is coming from a sensitive user by the way who takes criticism personally even though I'm trying to train myself to not take criticism towards myself as a fatal wound to my inner self-esteem. I'm open to the suggestion that Nintendo could be a bit more proactive in the future in adding Super Mario Land into future installments and stuff, but that's for the uncertain future and the best thing is to stick to what we know now and let time tell what will happen. It's reasonable to assume that it will most likely not get referenced further. By the way, no users are enemies to each other unless you're a wandal or a troll. You haven't done anything that would consider me to dislike you, so far. All you did was debate. Not very good, frankly, but it's not enough to earn contempt from me. Trust me, there are far more worse users than you, the ones that truly deserve my contempt. You're not one of them. 17:50, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

I don't want your contempt, and I don't want to be friends with you, but I do not want to be your enemy either. I can tell people like you and I are very different. Having very different ideas of when something should be considered. That does not put you any more above or below me. That makes us equal. And as such I think you should treat my, and everyone else's argument as equal to yours. I think I know why I got sad. I got sad because I thought I would find people who thought of me as their equals. Mario fans talking about Mario stuff. Though when I felt you turned against me, I felt my fellow brethren were looking down on me. I don't want to be friends simply because I have a similarity with someone, but because I enjoy expressing my similarity with that person. I don't get that with you and I can tell you don't like me very much. That is life, and I should just man up. I have been criticized many times on the internet very harshly without feeling a thing. Though when I felt like a fellow Mario fan offended me, that really hurt me and that never happens. I don't think you can understand and that is ok (I am a very weird individual :p). Honostly, talking personally to a guy I just met is weird. Do something new everyday.


 * Does that include me? I don't like people hating me either.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 17:55, 9 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Well let's see...do you add nonsense text just to revert them after with a bogus edit summary? Do you wandalize pages that can be undone with a click? Do you create countless sockpuppets "attacking" the site persistently without accomplishing anything substantial? If none of the above, then I don't hate you. 18:01, 9 June 2015 (EDT)


 * Nope, none of those.

(talk|contribs) Kamek Power! 18:07, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

"I just suppose I am a little disappointed and sad. I have been reading this wiki since I was 12 (I am 17 now). I thought when I joined this wiki I would make friends, that's all. I thought I could find others like me that love the Mario franchise so much that they would talk about anything Mario. I just feel I am turning you against me. I don't want to be hated or seen as stupid because someone disagrees with me. I want to make friends and have fun. I just feel... really hurt right now and I don't know if I belong here :(."

It wasn't my intention to sound unwelcoming and mean. I freaking love the Mario franchise too, why was I here for, like, 5 years still going by silly Mario-related monikers? You got to remember though, don't take this debate personally. Please don't lose sleep over this. We can still be friends. Remember, nobody is perfect and I'm not trying to attack you as a person. I'm only going after your argument and nothing else on this whole matter. See, we agree on the beta nomenclature on another proposal. I myself have made and supported proposals that have miserably failed before, and as I said, it feels bad to lose, but it's all part of getting the experience and the learning process. You're not a stupid person, and I do understand the whole premise of this argument, which is why I used qualifiers a few times. The act of starting a discussion like this is considered a good thing since it gets our thinking caps going. If I was harsh on you, then I'm sorry. I don't want to lose any new potential editors over a silly, convoluted debate like this. 18:21, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Thank you so much. This made me feel a whole lot better. I just want to be in a place where I can share my Mario knowledge from the franchise I love so much. And if there are people like you that are willing to have me, I will be happy to stay. :) I don't know what came over me, I just felt a little sad that is all.
 * That's great! No one here wants to lose a new editor. Being a new editor is tough, but once you learn the debating style and get experience, it's going to be much easier to take the losses and frame arguments that I and Walkazo may agree with one day. 18:42, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

"''I don't want your contempt, and I don't want to be friends with you, but I do not want to be your enemy either. I can tell people like you and I are very different. Having very different ideas of when something should be considered. That does not put you any more above or below me. That makes us equal. And as such I think you should treat my, and everyone else's argument as equal to yours. I think I know why I got sad. I got sad because I thought I would find people who thought of me as their equals. Mario fans talking about Mario stuff. Though when I felt you turned against me, I felt my fellow brethren were looking down on me. I don't want to be friends simply because I have a similarity with someone, but because I enjoy expressing my similarity with that person. I don't get that with you and I can tell you don't like me very much. That is life, and I should just man up. I have been criticized many times on the internet very harshly without feeling a thing. Though when I felt like a fellow Mario fan offended me, that really hurt me and that never happens. I don't think you can understand and that is ok (I am a very weird individual :p). Honostly, talking personally to a guy I just met is weird. Do something new everyday.''"

Nobody is feeling contempt for you. There is no reason you should feel guilty about this, honestly, but you should consider it as a learning experience. We're not attacking you as a person. We're disagreeing with your reasoning. You need to learn that the Mario fanbase is a very diverse group, which means very diverse viewpoints. Frankly, it's naïve to assume we're going to agree with each other on all issues, but you know what they say? Variety is the spice of life. It's great to have dissenting viewpoints and a civil discussion on how the Mario series should be organized because that leads to a better understanding of the Mario series for the both of us. Also, the reality is that not all arguments are equal. Some carry more weight than others, and some people can word what they're arguing much better than others. Creating balance for the sake of balance is a fallacy. That arguments aren't equal, that's the heart of the debate. If both of our sides are equal, then we shouldn't be arguing in the first place. Instead we're arguing and trying to convince one side is superior to the other. It hurts to be criticized, as you feel ostracized, stupid, and generally disliked, so it's understandable to be frustrated. Don't be so hard on yourself, though, because that's what you're doing. You're not stupid, acting maliciously, or being hated. As I said, losing a debate is hard, but don't lose sleep over this and instead learn from your mistakes. It's not about winning or losing the debate, it's ultimately about improving the quality of information we Mario fans convey and enjoy, and if it leads to a better understanding for both our viewpoints, then it's a good debate. 18:42, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Very true, but I do find it possible for two people arguments to be equal if both cannot completely prove the point, thus creating an endless debate. Either way, it does not matter. What matters is moving on and expanding the wiki for the good of the readers. Sorry for being such a soft spot earlier. It just came over me and it was weird. Once again, thanks a lot for the help, friend.
 * It's all right. And yeah, those happen too, and those are always tricky arguments. Just look at Captain Toad and that argument, lol. That's even more confusing than this argument. XD 18:59, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Oh my Gosh you're right XD.

what the fuck happened here --Glowsquid (talk) 19:20, 9 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Discussion!
 * A really convoluted one. ;P It's surprisingly tamer than other wiki arguments I've seen though. That comment kind of came off as rude though. 19:28, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Ban the term beta * and rename pages in the Beta namespace
There was a proposal suggesting to change the name of the "beta elements" page to something more accurate. Despite being close to succeeding, it was vetoed by the admins with the reason being that "it's not meant to be taken literally" and "it works".

Except. no. The suggestion was perfectly cogent, the rationale provided for the veto was bad and the proposal should never have been reversed. Here's why

1: It's a bad, innacurate term: "Beta" in programming language refers to a specific state of development, a prerelease build that's feature-complete and is being bugtested. It's not even a particularly representative term: the beta period happens near the end of development, long after ideas suggested in pre-production are shot down, games are overhauled, unique characters and objects are removed... etc, which is what the "beta" pages usually cover.

Some may argue that "language evolves" and that "beta as it is used here is not meant to be taken literally", but I don't think it's a strong arguments. Sites focused on the documentation of unused/prelease content such as Unseen 64 and TCRF have mocked the usage of "beta" as a catch-all term and lower-quality ressources that use it that way. Other fan wikis like SegaRetro also do not use "beta" as a generic term. Fact is, "beta" is nowhere near accepted in professional circles and that's what the wiki claims to be - a professional ressource. Furthermore, why would you use an inacurate and potentially misleading term when dozens of accurate, non-misleading alternatives exist?

2: It leads to muddy, vague writing. Whenever you see "beta" used on other pages, its catch-all nature muddies the information. "Dread Kong did not exist in the beta version of Donkey Kong Jungle Beat" - nevermind that referring to a singular "beta version" betrays a gross ignorance of how game development works, what's the "beta" in question? A preview in a magazine? A proto leaked on the internet? Something suggested in pre-production that was rejected and never programmed into the game? Banning the generic beta and forcing editors to be more specific (as opposed to the current wishy-washy stance that "we know it's bad, but we still use it because reasons I guess") will improve the quality of the information.

3: The "grandfather clause" is never a good excuse: Similar to this case, "sub-species" is a long-used term that was found to be innacurate and cause inconsistencies, and the current community concensus is that it should be replaced despite its longstanding nature. "It's what we've always used" is not a good refutation when the usage of a term is proven to lower the credibility and quality of the information, as is the case here.

As a replacement, I propose beta pages to be renamed List of prerelease and unused content. "Prelease" perfectly encansuplates the varieties of content that's not present in the final code, and it's wordier, yes, but not overly so. Generic mention of "beta" should not be robotically replaced with a generic "In prelease/unused content of [game]", but rather with a specific term ("magazine preview", "prototype", "unused"), with a piped link to the "List of..." pages.

( * : This of course doesn't apply to actual beta builds, but as none of the specific builds documented here are specifically said to be real betas, that precision is kinda irrelevant.)

Proposer: Deadline: June 15, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Move beta pages to "List of prerelease and unused content" and ban the generic "beta" in mainspace articles

 * 1) Simply because something works does not make it professional or the most efficient. The simple term beta used on the wiki goes against basic definition and term of the word that is beta.
 * 2) "Beta" probably could be validated if it was actual developer terminology that refers to a specific point of development or build, but since Nintendo doesn't and won't do that publicly, I am completely okay with Beta banning for those reasons. Per proposal.
 * 3) I am okay with this. Beta is a bad term and I think that term may be better. It's a little long, but I like it. Per Glowsquid.
 * 4) Okay, I'll let it out: I felt cheated when I saw that veto and I agree that it should've never happened, and it should not happen again. This poorly-handled veto deserves all the criticism it gets for using administrative powers to shut down legit debate. Anyhow, nonstaff user's opinions aside, by keeping the term "beta" as "a-okay", we're contradicting our own policy, the Good writing's frequently misused terms. This policy will cause confusion for newer users by saying it's not okay to use "beta" while in the same time, using that term in the same way. Now, I'm feeling confident to lambast the staff team's reasoning and decision, hear me out. This is the reasoning: "'Beta' was never meant to be taken literally as the specific beta version, but as a convenient umbrella term synonymous with 'pre-release'. It works perfectly well as-is; there is no need to change the name." This reasoning has several problems. "It's never meant to be taken literally" is dodging the basic argument, that "the terminology has never been a problem in the first place" when that there was an entire proposal about it that garnered massive support (only to be shut down by a handful of people) about the usage of that term. It doesn't matter if we "intended" the term to be "taken literally"; this term certainly confuses, misleads, and misinforms our readers, just as how "subspecies", apparently, is never meant to be taken literally in this wiki. The usage of "beta" as a convenient umbrella term is the entire problem with that forsaken word. We have a much better umbrella term "pre-release and unused elements" that is not only far superior, but does not flirt with the line into pedantry. *breathes* Okay, pardon my bitter tone, I'm still a bit miffed over that, but I support this proposal as much as the subspecies eradication proposal. They're both about precise and accurate word usage and so the reasoning behind the two should be reasonably similar.
 * 5) Glowsquid's reasoning makes sense and the proposed change sounds agreeable.
 * 6) There's a fine line of difference between being "pedantic" and being "outright wrong" when it comes to terminology, and this clearly falls in the latter case by the reasoning Glowsquid provided. Per Glowsquid and Mario, they've already stated what I was going to say.
 * 7) I supported this the last time, I'm supporting it this time. Per all.
 * 1) I supported this the last time, I'm supporting it this time. Per all.

Comments
@Mario - I agree with practically everything that has been said on the matter so far, and there's not much for me to add besides the fact that using the term as loosely as Mario Wiki does is definitely looked down upon in certain circles (and indeed, there is still quite a lot of rogue instances of "beta" that require cleaning up regardless of this); however, while I don't feel your sentiments are wrong, it's worth acknowledging that it was a bureaucrat who decided to initiate this second proposal. I believe that counts for something! LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:30, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * That's true. :) However, I feel like if I attempted a redux like, it might get vetoed. Oh well, I guess you can't win by doing nothing. 15:51, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

@Glowsquid, you should probably correct your support header, "prelease" to "prerelease" 15:17, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * It makes for a terrible pun though. http://forum.mariowiki.com/Smileys/default/dk.gif 15:30, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

Use explanation text to explain pronouns and whatnot in quotes
Let's take a look, for example, in this section of the List of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door quotes. I see that, since Princess Peach is referenced many times, there are many "you"s linking to her article, and this is just to indicate that she is the one being referenced. But it doesn't seem right to use links for this purpose, because for what I know they are supposed to support navigation. Plus, since regular articles usually use only one link to some subject (on the first mention), it would be nice to do the same with quotes.

So, I propose that, whenever a subject must be identified in a quote (except on the first mention), we use This kind of explanation to identify it.

So, this quote from Super Paper Mario:
 * "If he thinks you are the hero, you probably are. I think..."

Would become:
 * "If he thinks you are the hero, you probably are. I think..."

Proposer: Deadline: June 16, 2015, at 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) I really don't see the issue of using links to link to character articles? Adding links to character name certainly doesn't create any problems whatsoever, and what you're doing is basically stripping away the link function, since these two function essentially the same: hovering over a name to show a character's name. I'm not exactly against this, but I see this as a pointless change so I'm just going for the do-nothing option, which is essentially this vote.
 * 2) - The span stuff is a huge pain to use, where as links are easy and do no harm. The wiki's studded with blue overall (or whatever colours you have your skins set to: not our fault if they links are garish), and cases like the example where "you" gets liked twice shouldn't happen anyway since the first link establishes who it is. Other times, context can tell us who's the subject matter, or perhaps the identity might not matter, just the soundbite itself for the sake of the speakers' character, so even links wouldn't be necessary. Other times, parenthetical context can be provided to explain the quotes, again without links. Overall, it's really not as bad as the proposal makes it out to be.
 * 3) That would make sense, but the problem is that the links are showing what characters they mean. In the game, it doesn't show the characters names, but since this is the Mario Wiki, it has more information on everything. I would say, "per all".
 * 4) People would like to know what characters the quote is referring to. Per all.
 * 5) I wouldn't support outright banning the span stuff, but there's no point in using it when it's a pain to implement it (I use it for furigana inputting). I understand how this alternative is attractive rather than redundant links, but I'd stick with the simpler brackets.

Comments
Perhaps we can compromise by replacing all first instances (in general) with links and then making repeated instances with the explanation text fields? 21:48, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Even so...what does that do that links can't? 21:50, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Isn't that accomplishing the same thing with less convenience? It just seems like an unnecessary step to me. What's the downside/negative aspect of having the links in the first place?
 * @Baby Luigi: it's less of an eyesore than techno-color links all over the place (and maybe mobile users don't have to worry about accidentally touching them or something). We don't link every text in the gallery pages for that same reason, so maybe we can use those fields instead. However, as Time Turner said, it's another piece of wiki code to memorize and incorporate. 21:53, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Techno color links? You mean two colors, blue and black? That's not an eye sore at all. Perhaps we can limit the linking to once per pronoun referral but that's about it. It's not that much of an eyestrain unless this wiki uses the yellow color to link things. I don't know how mobile users work though. 21:56, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * That's exactly what I mean. And what I mean by techno-color links, look at the example in the proposal: two links to Mario's page is a bit ludicrous. If those links are meant to give clarification, then we shouldn't have to solely rely on them; stuff like explanation text wrap exists. 22:04, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I still don't see the problem in that? You're making this a bigger deal than it really is. It's still only two colors, blue and black, and it links just as much as any other article on the wiki does. 22:06, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I was exaggerating myself here in terms of "gaudy links", but yeah, it was hard to tell. Sorry for that. 00:54, 9 June 2015 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.