Talk:Morty Mole

Morty Moles are Mega Moles
Morty Moles was just a rename and they are Mega Moles IGN even said they were and I think they are they just have darkish brown fur as well as no glasses and the prima gudide makes mistakes on names for example sledge bro was named "Sumo Bro." in New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. 2 manual. I know they behave diffrent instead of riding there heads and there slow but it's not comfirmed that they are Seperated enemies so I kinda think this should be a section for mega moles instead of a seperate page.
 * They have separate pages because the Japanese names are different.

Excuse Me?
Why on Earth were these merged? Sure they're both giant Monty Moles, but they look different, act different, have different names in both English and Japanese, and overall are only similar in that they're large subspecies of Monty Moles. Was this discussed? I don't think it was, I never saw anything like that. This needs reversed. 01:10, 18 July 2017
 * It doesn't look like it was. In fairness, however, the new Japanese name is currently unconfirmed, and having it all as one article does solve the problem of which article if any would cover the big Monty Mole from Super Mario Maker (which is more than I can say for, say, Parabuzzy, where the winged Buzzy Beetle as of said game seems to fluctuate articles on editors' whims as a result of the older split from Para-Beetle). Still, this may not be clear-cut enough to have been done without a proposal, so if you want to formalize it with one, I think now would be as good a time as any. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:38, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

Split Mega Mole from Morty Mole
These need split up again. the only similarities between the two is that they're large Monty Moles and have three strands of hair, but neither of them even have the same design as Monty Mole.

Mega Mole has sunglasses, a long pointy mole-like nose (which admittedly all Moles had back then) halfway up the body, a smug lower lip, were the same palette as Monty, and had a white area that goes all the way to the base of the cheeks.

Morty Mole has the same eyes as Monty, a tooth and small lower lip, a gopher-like nose high up on its body (which current Monties and the original artwork for Monties had), a red and tan palette, and said tan area only covers part of the belly.

They also act completely different, with Mega Mole basically being a moving platform that can cause damage and Morty Mole acting like Rex. They also have different names in English and ostensibly Japanese, although I still see the SMG "Monty" split from Rocky Wrench despite being even more similar and having an unconfirmed Japanese name. There's just really not enough similar about them to assume they're the same species, especially since they're both from the same subseries, and not a weird-acting Paper Mario version. As for the "Mega Monty Moles" of Mario Party: Star Rush, they should probably just remain under the regular Monty Mole page.

Proposer: Deadline: August 1, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per my comment below.

Oppose

 * 1) While the recent re-merge should've definitely been discussed first, I believe it's more beneficial to group them in the same article. Even if the names changed in both English and Japanese, take a look at just about any of the "big" enemy articles - nomenclature has irrevocably changed over time depending on debut even across regions, yet they're considered the same subject, so naming isn't necessarily the defining indicator. Take Big Goomba, for instance - it's been under several names in past appearances and gained different behaviors (in the New Super Mario Bros. series and all styles of Super Mario Maker, they notably split into two Goombas when stomped). Having enemies that were clearly differentiated by size under one umbrella makes it far easier to keep track of these things. Additionally, one article makes it straightforward to include the Super Mario Maker version of the big Monty Mole, which looks more like a Mega Mole (albeit without shades, but the Super Mario World artwork suggests the sprites' "closed eyes" were originally meant to be interpreted as shades) but acts more like a Morty Mole (with one jump to defeat instead of two like in Super Mario 3D Land). As for the design difference, don't forget that Super Mario 3D Land also used a non-standard palette swap for the Fire Piranha Plant. Overall, I think the differences can be construed as part of a long-absent enemy's reintroduction into the series.
 * 2) Per LinkTheLefty

Comments
I want to add, if the merge sticks, the article should go to "Mega Mole" per naming policy, since "Morty Mole" only comes from Prima as of now. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:50, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

@LinkTheLefty: I would like to bring up this. TTYD Piranha Plants had a case similar to this, with two enemies looking alike to one another, but having different names in Japanese and operating differently. They were eventually considered different enough to warrant separate articles, and going off of this, it'd be viable to split Mega Mole and Morty Mole. 17:59, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

About long-absent enemies being reintroduced, I'd like to point out that Nintendo typically sticks with the old design when they do so, even when it would make more sense to redesign them, except for in the Galaxy games. The best example would probably be Sumo Bro, which looks nothing like any sort of Hammer Bro, and this also applies to some old enemies redesigned for Galaxy, but returned to old design afterwards, such Porcupuffer and Mechakoopa's NSMBW appearance (they both look like the original artwork). It mostly carried into the 3D series as well, notably with Chargin' Chucks. The only real exceptions I see are Bony Beetle, Bully, and Scuttlebug, but they still act in the same manner as their prior appearance, while Fish Bone uses the old design with a different behavior. And most "Big" (agh such an unoriginal appellation) enemies look exactly the same as their small varieties. Ones that look significantly different still have different names entirely, like Banzai Bill, and the larger Monty Moles in Maker are more akin to the separate "Mega Monty Mole" species. And if we're using artwork to say that the first Monty Mole was supposed to have shades, it's worth noting that the same artwork used the tiny gopher nose, and had the face mush higher on the body than Mega Moles, as well as lacking Mega Mole's distinctive mouth. 17:01, 18 July 2017 (CT)

I would also like to point out that them being the same is nothing more than speculation, which is not allowed here, especially not in that capacity. 14:41, 19 JUly 2017