Talk:King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine)

"Japan isn't always right"
Well, Japan isn't always right. Also notice that the "Boss" term has been applied to Petey Piranha (Boss Pakkun), Gooper Blooper (Boss Gesso), and Wiggler (Boss Hana-chan). That trend would likely be kept up for this one, and they were keeping it up for this King Boo. That doesn't make it separate from the other King Boo. You're all just way too gullible. Just because some of the slightest changes were made overseas, doesn't negate any such translations.

Now how do you explain Lakitu King and Giga Lakitu, hm? BooDestroyer 06:31, 15 May 2011 (EDT)

He has the same crown as the current King Boo, and it was only his second appearance...Bowser has gotten changed a little over the years, and the Koopalings are still changing. I think we should merge this with the original King Boo again. --Koopapoopa 22:34, 20 May 2010 (EDT)


 * No, the great difference lies on their japanese names, here is named "Boss Teresa", while the other is called "King Teresa".
 * ...Is it THAT great a difference? The "Boss" thing is kept up for the others in this game too. BooDestroyer

Koopa Troopas are called Koopas in most games, Terrapins in Super Mario RPG, and looked very different. Princess Toadstool is now known as Princess Peach. Also, he's still called King Boo in the US. --Koopapoopa 09:11, 27 May 2010 (EDT)

His appearance says it all.It is a complete differant person.

A change in appearance does not mean the character is different. Is the Mario in Mario & Luigi different from regular Mario because you can't see his mouth in the artwork? Perhaps a better example would be your signature, Mr bones. Dry Bones' appearance have a great deal of difference between Paper Mario and the rest of the games. They are the same species.
 * The change in appearance was not the reason for the split. It was the names Nintendo gave to them in the original Japanese version that distinguished between the two characters. Different names in the original, different characters, separate articles. - 03:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

What the heck?
Why did you separate this article? It's the same character!

The answer is right above your comment.
 * Yeah well I don't care what the japanese say


 * Mario is a Japanese production. Thus the original canon is the Japanese one. We must follow the Japanese continuity, even if the one we have is different. So King Boo and Boss Boo are different characters. Koopalmier 15:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

We do!

rename
Since the Japanese name translates to Boss Boo. Should rename this article Boss Boo instead of King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine)?
 * He has an official name in english, so that's the name we use.
 * So we're going on the Japanese name and the English name at the same time, but they contradict each other? We're doing something wrong.
 * The japanese name shows that this King Boo is a separate being. But since we have an official english name, that's the one we use.

Reason why it should be like this
This is just in case someone wants to complain abou the split. No matter which language we would follow one article would be split. If we went by the english names we would have to split the king boo from Super Mario 64 DS because he's called "BIG Boo" in english. He's called King Boo in the japanese. This should NEVER be merged again (unless a special someone orders it or we go by the english names). The king boo from Super Mario 64 DS looks more like King boo than this one. User:MarioMaster720

King Boo is always King Boo
i understand the opposing arguments, and yes they are in different lands, but then Petey Piranha. He lives on the Isle of Delfino and he was boss of the ice world in new super mario bros.! so if we are going by that logic, shouldn't Petey be split. And for Japanese, Boss is a re-accring thing in Super Mario Sunshine for the first word, the probably wanted him to fit in. He is the same, and remember: they are ALWAYS improving graphics, he may look different because of the bit type. As for super mario 64, Big Boo wasn't him, bigg Bo was a defeat-by-punching. King boo was called King boo in the DS version as far as i'm consurned, and Big Boo was there as well. So having two different looking bosses, with different ways to defeat WITH THE SAME NAME would be stupid. need i say more, I say, think of UNSPLITING, THEY ARE THE SAME! i would like to see a good come-back! 86.147.117.255 14:30, 30 January 2013 (EST)

I agree. Where is the evidence that this King Boo and the King Boo from Luigi's Mansion are the same? Is it because they look different or something? If so, that would be like giving Iggy Koopa two articles called "Iggy Koopa (Super Mario Bros. 3)" and "Iggy Koopa (New Super Mario Bros. Wii)" and giving Petey Piranha "Petey Piranha (Super Mario Sunshine)" and "Petey Piranha (Mario Pinball Land)". Does that make any sense? -signed a.k.a. Shy Troopa or  John Roberts 12:36, 3 February 2013 (EST)
 * Um the Japanese name is different implying that it's a different character thus per the precedent set by this wiki the characters are to stay split.

As i said before, they were going for an ongoing occurrence (petey, Glooper Blooper and the green wiggler "full steam ahead" boss guy had this occurrence as well) to have the first name:BOSS. like latin names for animals: if King boo were an animal, his genus or something like that would be "Boss", they were probably and MOST LIKELY going for that! he is the same, if anything split the King Boo of the "Luigi Series" as he looks different from every other king boo, who looked like this guy. he, like petey, can live in other places (King boo=boo woods, isle delfino. Petey= isle delfino, world 5 (NSMB). so he shouldn't be split. Japanese name was like a Genus. 86.147.117.255 14:54, 4 February 2013 (EST)
 * I don't think it should be merged for multiple reasons. First off, this one is created by Bowser Jr.. It dislikes spicy food, rules a different species of Boo, and is overall a different character. Not to mention that they look completely different. - 11:34, 18 June 2014 (EDT)

Talk Page Proposal: Merge with King Boo
I actually disagree with this but obviously this TPP needs to happen. While he is referred to as Boss Boo in the Japanese version, he is referred to as King Boo, like King Boo, in America. In addition, despite his different appearance, this is King Boo's second appearance and a beta redesign isn't out of the question. On the other hand, King Boo has always been referred to as "King Boo" in other languages except this guy, besides in Super Mario 64 DS where, in America, he was called Big Boo (but this is easily explained away as a translation error, since he has the same appearance as other King Boo incarnations). Thoughts?

Proposer: Deadline: July 2, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) per proposal
 * 2) There is no evidence that this King Boo and the LM King Boo are not the same.

Oppose

 * 1) I realize I'm supposed to support my own proposal, but this was made for other people who disagree that haven't made it yet. Anyway. This is the only incarnation of King Boo that has a different name in Japan (Boss Boo), all others are King Boo.
 * 2) First, I'd like to address the translation error from Super Mario 64 DS. It's indeed a translation error that's not intentional because in Mario Kart DS, the bosses in Mission Mode are all borrowed from that game, and King Boo is known as "King Boo" in that game rather than Big Boo. Also, I've read that this King Boo is made from goop and he dislikes spicy food, something totally different from the regular King Boo. And finally, his Japanese name is his origin name, which means he was intentionally from the getgo made to be a different character than the one from Luigi's Mansion. He also looks quite different from the other King Boo incarnations.
 * 3) Per myself up there.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all. No, just no.
 * 6) Oppose because they are different characters with different traits. Things with the same name that are different should be separated and kept that way.
 * 7) If Peanut opposes his own proposal, why make it in the first place?
 * 8) Per all. We have enough evidence to support them being separate characters.
 * 9) They are different characters. Boss Boo was likely renamed "King Boo" in other regions due to his similarities with the real King Boo. Regardless, the people who designed Super Mario Sunshine created Boss Boo as a different character, so we should consider him that, too.
 * 10) - The page was split via a TPP in the first place, so no, we didn't need to vote on it again, but anyway, per all, and per the reasons in the old proposal.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per Walkazo.

Comments
@Sean Because it has been a recurring argument on this page. I felt the need to settle it. Peanutjon (talk) 23:51, 18 June 2014 (EDT)
 * That's also not a valid reason to cast a vote, Sean. Please edit your vote to include a valid rational. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:29, 19 June 2014 (EDT)

Y'know I was kinda hoping some of the people who disagree would show up :/ Peanutjon (talk) 16:32, 19 June 2014 (EDT)
 * You could always try leaving a message directly on their talk page, to notify them of this proposal.
 * That'd probably count as fishing for votes.
 * It'd only be a violation if he asked them to specifically vote for one side of the proposal. Simply bringing attention to the proposal is harmless.

No, it not harmless. The person you tell may side with you because they might feel that if they don't, you'll get angry and do something. - 17:48, 19 June 2014 (EDT)
 * If the person feels the pressure when the pressure is absent, it's the person's problem. 18:56, 19 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I went ahead and did it. If it is inappropriate, I'll get a warning and never do it again. :) Peanutjon (talk) 22:26, 19 June 2014 (EDT)
 * It's the fact that the pressure can get to the person that makes it hard. It's fine on my standards if you know the user well enough though. - 01:17, 20 June 2014 (EDT)

I don't exactly see why this proposal is necessary. A user can look at the above comments and see why the pages are separate, and if he or she still disagrees, he or she can propose it himself or herself. 19:01, 27 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I think it's just for the purpose of setting an official standard on it to reference in case someone does attempt to split it.--Vommack (talk) 19:02, 27 June 2014 (EDT)

@Koopa Guy, read the actual article, the Japanese name bit is evidence enough. 18:39, 30 June 2014 (EDT)

Big Boss Boo
So, as we know, this entity shares its Japanese name with one of the many Japanese names for Big Boo, which itself is clearly the same basic thing in all but possibly Dark Moon (where it's seemingly Boolossus). Anyways, I feel it's likely a good idea to go ahead and merge this to Big Boo and treat the "King Boo" name as a localization goof brought on by the appearance (on a related note, note how the actual King Boo was called Big Boo in Super Mario 64 DS, which already had Big Boo). There's also the possibility of splitting those Big Boos here, but that would be ultra messy, because both other iterations also have an alternate name, and the SM64 one's alternate name is shared with the Mario Party 2 one. As such, I feel merging this to there would be the better idea. Now, to deal with possible counterpoints: Anyways, tell me what you think. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:54, October 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * "It's design is not just an enlarged Boo, it's distinct."
 * Neither have a few other iterations, notably the original, which not only looked totally different from normal Boo face-wise, but was blue. And in a later appearance, one was made of a huge crumpled ball of paper. Not to mention how Big Boos were the angry-eyed ones in SMW2 while the normal Boos were happy. Also, most importantly, this is Super Mario Sunshine, in which previous enemy designs just don't matter.
 * "There's no other previously recurring entity to act as a boss in Sunshine aside from Bowser."
 * While it wasn't a boss beforehand, Monty Mole existed as an enemy, and I'm starting to give the idea of Phantamanta just being an ultra-permutated version of SM64's own electrified Manta Ray some consideration (which itself is indicated by the JP and SMS guide names).
 * "'Boss' is just a stock identifier among JP names for Sunshine bosses."
 * True, but they purposefully used "Boss Teresa" alongside an off-model "Boss Pakkun" in Mario Pinball Land later, and there's no reason for them to not remember the Sunshine Boss Teresa so soon after. And only referencing a previous "Boss Teresa" when it itself had a valid alternate name they could have used wouldn't make sense either.
 * I can only say that the Super Mario Pia agrees with you:

ボステレサ ボスとして登場する巨大テレサ. 『スーパーマリオサンシャイン』では大きなベロを出している. 登場作品 S64,SMS
 * The picture is that of the Super Mario 64 Big Boo (I can provide a scan if you need it). I personally preferred steering away from taking this claim into the wiki as that book made a lot of bold claims and the thought of the shared name being the reason of them being merged never escaped my mind, with the redesign of all the enemies in Super Mario Sunshine not allowing us to understand if they were really meant to be the same or just different Boss Boos.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:50, October 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I understand that, but I feel the Mario Pinball Land Boss Boo seals the deal there. It's a fairly generic-looking Big Boo in a game released quite shortly after Sunshine, and as previously stated, includes a rather odd looking Petey Piranha. Anyways, I'm not suggesting it is the exact same entity as the SM64 one, but another piece of the Big Boo concept's design history. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:59, October 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Sleepy Boos in the Super Mario Sunshine Perfect Guide guide book is the only source they were called Big Boos and there Japanese name is actually "Debu Teresa" meaning "Fat Boo" which represents their lazy nature as the game doesn't feature actual Big Boos at all. The only actual Big Boo is that particular one you fight as a boss too. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 15:18, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Interesting scenario. I'm not sure about how to proceed either. -- 13:40, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Question about Super Mario Pia - does it also list Big Boo / Atomic Telesa separately from the SM64 / SMS boss, or is it not mentioned at all? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:20, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Well, this is one of the odd entries you found, on page 61:

でかテレサ

巨大化したテレサ. 体は大きいが、そのほかの能力は通常のテレサとさほど差はない.

登場作品NSMW,3DL,NSM2,NSMU
 * It's not like there is a separate entry for Atomic Teresa, those are just omitted...--Mister Wu (talk) 19:59, November 3, 2019 (EST)

I don't see how the localization is a goof. If anything, the Japanese name is the goof. This Boo wears a crown, so he's arguably more connected to King Boo than Big Boo. This King Boo is also created differently than any other Boo, being made out of graffiti, to mimic King Boo. 16:03, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * I feel the crown is more a gag, akin to the "can't someone suck them all up with a vacuum" joke. More of a nod to LM than an actual appearance. Also, the statement is that all SMS enemies (aside from possibly blue Cataquacks) are mad from goop. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:05, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Goop, graffiti, same thing. The crown being a gag makes no sense. While that line is obviously meant to refer to Luigi's Mansion, why give the Boo a crown if it's not supposed to resemble King Boo? 16:12, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Resemble yes, be no. It looks like King Boo as a joke, but isn't actually King Boo. Heck, the crown might have even been added as an afterthought. This isn't even a guide name in this case, it's called "Bosu Teresa" in the in-game mission title. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:39, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * It likely was a nod to Luigi's Mansion King Boo, but the in-game name indicates that it wasn't intended to be the same character, unlike the "Big Boo with a crown" King Boo that we had since Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and who was named King Teresa from the start. Like we noted before, in Super Mario Sunshine the appearance of the various enemies is deliberately off and deceptive, so it's probably better to err in the side of caution here - maybe this boss Boo was intended to be King Boo, or maybe it was intended to just be one of the various bosses Boo like the one fought in Super Mario 64, with a very different appearance.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:17, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * For what it's worth, its internal name is "btelesa" (root/data/scene/delfinoBoss.szs/scene/btelesa), so it's at least intended to be a "Boss Telesa". LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:20, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * To add to this, in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! we have the driver/kingteresa folder, so even in terms of internal names there is this distinction between the two characters.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:59, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Interestingly, in Super Mario 64 DS, Big Boo and King Boo are the same object (BOSS_TERESA), with the crown toggled. That might explain why he's called Big Boo. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:21, November 6, 2019 (EST)

Considering this is another one of those infamous merge proposals being based solely on Japanese name, I'm going to have to oppose here. However, I'm not against the idea that this discount King Boo wannabe is just the Sunshine equivalent of Big Boos. My issue here is that this guy is too distinct of an entity for me to feel comfortable merging into a generic enemy article. I know the "unique appearance" argument would be handwaved away because it's Sunshine, but nevertheless, it's there, and combined with the unique English name (and we are an English wiki) makes me feel that this is a Big Boo character, not just a generic Big Boo. -- 17:04, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Same. I'm not seeing the reasons behind merging a distinct character (with its own English name) into a generic enemy article. 17:08, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Parabuzzy was also treated as "another one of those infamous merge proposals" just a few short years ago, but then Super Mario Maker happened and now Super Mario Maker 2 outright calls them Para-Beetles, so localization isn't nearly as constant as you want to make it out to be. That said, why not alternatively move the Boss Telesas from Big Boo to this article? Also, I want to point out that we have a Big Boo boss article for Super Mario World. If this merges, so should that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:28, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * Additionally, if a "distinct character" is the only example of a particular subject in a game (especially a single game), then it's that game's interpretation of said subject. Sort of like how there's only one large Chain Chomp/Unagi/Dorrie/Klepto/Manta Ray/Wiggler in SM64, yet they are considered part of their respective species article. Actually, it's exactly like that. Toad, Yoshi, and Kamek at least appear alongside "unnamed generic" members of the species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:52, November 3, 2019 (EST)

On closer inspection, I think a bit of a mix-up happened here. In the Japanese version of Super Mario 64, the Big Boo is actually referred to as 「おやかたテレサ」 (Oyakata Teresa) in the title for Go on a Ghost Hunt, which is the name reused for Mario Party 2; however, in the title for Big Boo's Balcony, it's instead described as 「ボステレサ」 (Bosu Teresa), which is more in line with 「ボスどんけつ」 (Bosu Donketu, Big Bully). I think it was supposed to be named Oyakata Teresa since that's what it's called in the Super Mario 64 section of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., even when describing the mission with "Boss Teresa" in the title on page 88. On page 85, its description also called it 「大きなテレサ. 」 (A huge Boo.) - the same description as all the other incarnations of Big Boo in the rest of the book, meaning that the Sunshine Boos are not described as such. Also note that oyakata can translate to "boss" (or "chief," "master," etc.), which is probably why it's alternatively referred to as the Boss Teresa. Basically, it was Super Mario Pia that took the name of the latter mission literally and interpreted them as the same entity. A similar thing happened with Big Piranha Plant, in which Pia listed a SM64 appearance seemingly based on the Japanese title of the Pluck the Piranha Flower mission, despite the fact that it's actually Big Fire Piranha. Pia has a somewhat spotty track record when it comes to listing appearances, mostly due to not being made fully aware of name changes. Mind, this doesn't explain why the obviously Big Boo of Super Mario Ball reused the name from Super Mario Sunshine, but it does at least put more doubt in the assessment of Pia. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:21, November 6, 2019 (EST)
 * I'd always taken it to be that the "Go on a Ghost Hunt" one was the owner of the house and as such a "special" one, given he gets the narrative introduction in his level after the Boos are defeated and nothing of the sort happens with the other two. Both names are in-game and seem to be "proper" in their writing. And I'm not pushing that the Sunshine one is individually the same as anything from SM64, I'm saying it's an evolution of the concept like any other previously-shown SMS thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:02, November 6, 2019 (EST)
 * Could be, but Encyclopedia attributes all three to Oyakata Teresa and makes no direct mention of Boss Teresa outside of the Super Mario Sunshine section. Of course, some of the names between the Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS guides are slightly different, so maybe it's indeed referred to as Boss Teresa in one of them, but my impression is that either it was meant to be taken as a quick descriptor or it might've been a placeholder that was overlooked after finalizing the name elsewhere (with a word that is ostensibly a Japanese equivalent). It would be better to confirm the case with more sources. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:55, November 6, 2019 (EST)
 * Do the mission titles lack spaces entirely in-game? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:38, November 6, 2019 (EST)
 * A space structure is present and generally used as you'd expect, but some of the emphasis is off; for example, "Can the Eel Come Out to Play?" emphasizes Kyodai Utsubo instead of just Utsubo, and "Chip Off Whomp's Block" weirdly emphasizes King instead of Battan King, and as already mentioned, Kyodai Packun Flower in "Pluck the Piranha Flower" probably wasn't intended to be its actual name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 01:47, November 7, 2019 (EST)
 * OK, so what about Mother Teresa the Bossy? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, November 7, 2019 (EST)
 * Both fit in-game space structure, but in my opinion Boss Teresa is inconclusive as a name or the intent until we can check guide sources, especially since Encyclopedia's wording implies it isn't the same as Sunshine Boo. LinkTheLefty (talk) 02:00, November 7, 2019 (EST)
 * I vote no, because King Boo talks about one character in one game; Big Boo talks about an entire Boo species. Scout1534 (talk) 20:27, December 7, 2019 (EST)
 * Except the "Big Boo" sections for Yoshi's Safari, Mario Party 3, Paper Mario TTYD, Super Paper Mario, SMG2, Luigi's Mansion DM, Paper Mario SS.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:30, December 7, 2019 (EST)

I have absolutely no authority here, but personally I think it's best to keep it as it's own page. If someone is looking for the King Boo from Mario Sunshine, they're not gonna think to look at the Big Boo page, if anything they're going to look at the King Boo page, although I don't think that this character is the same as either of those two, seeing as it has a unique design. Sure, a redirect from the King Boo page to the Big Boo page is just a small inconvenience, but it's the same for Sunshine King Boo how it is right now. Also I have no idea if I am doing this right or if I just missed something Superfroakie82 (talk) 17:17, May 1, 2020 (EDT)
 * You're doing it right, don't worry. Anyways, I'm holding off on this for now to see in any more information that points either way can be scrounged up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:23, May 1, 2020 (EDT)

Oppose, yeah sure they are similar but Big Boo isn’t a fake thing created imagery. Also, Chorobe, the Monty Mole in Sunshine makes a lot of sense for having it’s own article. 174.244.115.62

He has a crown, therefore he's a separate character. The end, as far as I'm concerned. - AwdryFan1997 (talk) 13:12, January 8, 2021 (EST)
 * Letting the Japanese name (or "language of origin") be the absoloute deciding factor in cases like this will just make things a lot more confusing to a majority of readers.
 * I have seen complaints about this, but while I can understand using various criteria to decide and thus keeping any decision about this on hold for now, we have to face how if you deal with the Mario franchise you might eventually have to deal with the Japanese language. That the wiki and most of its readers are English and thus might find the Japanese sources confusing is a problem of ours, the franchise itself was created and now is handled by Japanese employees of a Japanese company and as such inevitably the official Japanese sources take precedence over the rest.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:36, January 8, 2021 (EST)
 * In my opinion, a major part of the issue with putting so much stock in the Japanese (or whatever the language of origin is) names alone is that it assumes those developers are infallible and never give the same name to multiple subjects that are intended to be different, whether intentionally or accidentally (or on the other side of the coin, give different names to what is meant to be the same subject). We see it happen all the time in translations so I don't see why it can't happen in the original versions. In this case, King Boo is a Big Boo, but is he a unique individual or just Sunshine's iteration of a standard Big Boo? Unfortunately we'll never know for absolute certain barring a statement from the developers since no other Big Boos appear in the game, though I will note that Big Boos almost always behave identically to normal Boos, which King Boo clearly doesn't. Either way, I'd prefer to keep this split per my stance in the recent Lava Piranha debate. -- 19:07, January 8, 2021 (EST)
 * Indeed, we didn't move the page even though they have the same Japanese name and an official source (the Super Mario Pia) stated that they are the same boss. They are too different and it looks like we really need developers' input on this one. Still, keep in mind that we're dealing with Super Mario Sunshine, and Nintendo explicitly stated that the enemy there have a different appearance (even further explaining that this is due to them stemming from Bowser Jr.'s graffiti, that in the case of this boss effectively matches his defeat animation). We can't fully rely on just appearance and behavior as well.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:35, January 8, 2021 (EST)