MarioWiki:Proposals

Italics formatting of boat names, fictional products, and others
A disagreement between and me has started in Talk:The Princess Peach, a talk page concerning a ship (not the princess herself!) in Paper Mario: The Origami King. I and others advocated italicizing the name of the ship as it is consistent with MLA standards.

LinkTheLefty, however, argued these points:
 * The suggestion to italicize ship names contradicts with Naming: "Italics are used in main and gallery namespace page titles in the same way that they are used in text."
 * The in-game name for the ship is not italicized, and we shouldn't be italicizing names that Nintendo doesn't italicize to "fix" their formatting.
 * The Manual of Style makes no mention of italicizing boat names.
 * MLA may not be a relevant standard to follow as it is not explicitly stated to be followed in our wiki. Additionally, style guides such as AP Stylebook or U.S. Navy Style Guide does not italicize ship names.

I hope I have accurately summed up LinkTheLefty's points. If I have misrepresented their comments or left out any important points being made, please let me know.

I, however, disagreed, arguing the following points:
 * I do not see a contradiction. "Text" in the cited sentence refers to the content of an article, not in-game text as I assume that's being argued. The sentence in the naming guidelines refers to the wiki's requirement to italicize the titles of the subject to be consistent with the game text. For example, Mario Party 4's article needs to include to italicize the article header per policy.
 * The text in a video game medium is different from in an encyclopedia and thus is not subject to formatting standards that we have. Additionally, video game medium tend to not italicize in-game names. I cite non-italicized game names from the tips from Super Smash Bros.. There is also mention of Super Luigi series. Finally, we already italicize implicit names in the big list in List of implied entertainment which are likely not italicized in the in-game text.
 * If our Manual of Style already takes elements from MLA (which is does by advocating italicizing "games, series, movies, television programs, albums (music) and publications (print: comics, books and magazines) [...]") but does not explicitly state adhering to MLA), then we should be expanding what needs to be italicized to include ship names and other applicable titles, even if they are fictional, in accordance to MLA (Wikipedia italicizes fictional titles too, see ; I assume it's reasonable to use Wikipedia as an example).
 * If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard. I do concede that there are some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki (such as minor grammar and spelling errors in [sic quotations needing to be silently corrected] while we include [sic] even for minor grammar errors).

My proposal is to amend our Manual of Style to add italicizing titles not already mentioned in our Manual of Style, but outlined in the MLA guidelines. We should have it be policy to italicize ship names, play names, artwork, web publications, and anything else not already mentioned in our Manual of Style. If MLA is not relevant, then we should be at least following a bit of what Wikipedia does, as we're an internet wiki that is designed similarly to Wikipedia. We also must include names of fictional elements such as fictional books, fictional games, and so on. I believe this is simply just a policy update to keep up with increasing standards with this wiki over time.

Even if this proposal is rejected, there has to be some clarification of what should not be italicized, and if it is rejected, I'm going to try to get a discussion running on what we can agree should not be italicized.

Proposer: Deadline: December 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT January 2, 2021 23:59 GMT January 9, 2021 23:59 GMT

Change the guidelines

 * 1) I think it's reasonable to italicize ship names and I do think policy should be updated to reflect any other applicable titles that need to be italicized and are not explicitly mentioned in our Manual of Style.
 * 2) I think it's reasonable enough.
 * 3) I was the one who decided to italicize ship names. I think it's formal writing and it should have been done earlier, honestly.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all and MLA FTW.
 * 6) Per all. Just because were not Wikipedia doesn't mean we can't do some things like Wikipedia. And using proper and professional formatting isn't "being fancy for the sake of being fancy", it's being formal.
 * 7) - per all
 * 8) Per all.

Do not change

 * 1) Per myself in The Princess Peach talk page and summarized points. All I'd add is that it's not just the text within video games that hasn't been italicizing ship names, but also Nintendo Power and related guides as far as I'm aware. Additionally, I'm still not sure why MLA style in particular should be adopted when even certain other styles disagree and have other ideas. Personally, I think a fan wiki can easily afford to adopt and discard the conventions that work best for it in its own Manual of Style, and as-is is closer to our goal of being as official as possible. Also pointing out observations in the comments below such as the full-on rejection of enforcing MLA in proposals and discussions, shortsightedness of modeling ourselves after other wikis that don't have the same goals, science fantasy/fiction vehicles unnecessarily affected in accordance, etc. And for those repeating that the MLA is just more "formal" - the MLA was designed with the express intent of academic/scholarly purposes. Those who drafted our Manual of Style understood that there are other valid ways to suitably formalize and knew to draw the line at overcorrection.
 * 2) - Having ship names in the mix would probably be confusing considering we've only been italicizing media names and nothing else. "The Princess Peach" is not a media. I think the point of italicizing titles is to make it clear on what's media and what's not (though I see the Super Luigi series is an outlier here, given it is not a real piece of media).
 * 3) - Although this is something the Kingdom Hearts Wiki does (for the ships in the Pirates of the Carribean worlds), doing it here would be a bit too much.
 * 4) Per all who disagree. I like the idea of italicizing the names, don't get me wrong, but if a multimillion-dollar company like Nintendo doesn't bother with MLA, why should we? It feels like we're going out of our way to be less accurate. And, yeah, again, let me re-emphasize the "per all" thing, we're not Wikipedia and we shouldn't hold ourselves up to the MLA standards. We're MarioWiki, we're independent, and we're well past the days of being overly fancy for the sake of it. If the ship names were italicized in the games themselves, by golly would I want us to do so as well. But they don't, so, let's just not.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per everything LTL wrote on this topic (I will also say that the suggestion WIkipedia is in any way a standard to be followed is fundamentally offensive to me.)
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per LinkTheLefty on the issue of MLA, and I also do not agree with using the standards of other wikis such as Wikipedia to determine our own standards.
 * 9) - Per all. I can see the logic behind it and I know very little about systems like MLA, but I think keeping italics just for real-world media as it is now feels more consistent and makes a lot of sense. As for the formality argument, I really don't think most people who visit the Wiki will really notice or care if ship names etc. are italicised or not.
 * 10) - Per all.

Comments
Alex95: According to guidelines, this won't lead to italicizing shop names and locations as they're not normally italicized. See Wikipedia as a bit of a guide to see how things will get italicized (note that ship names are indeed one of the few things not in the big list of long works that are italicized). There seems to be a reasoning behind the italicization of ship names (here). Whether a work is fictional or not seems irrelevant, as, again, I cite List of implied entertainment.

Keyblade Master: There has to be a reason Kingdom Hearts Wiki does this? Why can't MarioWiki do it? 18:42, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * Different Wikis don't have to have the same rules as each other. They even allow strategy writing while we don't.
 * I understand there's a precedent for italicizing ship names. I just think we should keep it to media titles, for this wiki, so people don't think The Princess Peach is a book title or something. 18:47, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm fairly certain context clues help out identifying what the title is rather than glancing at a name, as it can be argued that you could also mistake Super Luigi series as a video game series and not a fictional book series. 18:50, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * Fair enough. It's a personal preference, then. 18:51, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * (ec) Keyblade Master: This is true that our policies and styling should not mirror wikis just because other wikis do it, but I'm asking for why this needs to be different in MarioWiki than in other wikis? We do have certain formatting consistencies across wikis, including italicizing game names and bolding the first instance of an article name in the body text, and my reasoning for this is that there's a sort of implicit formatting professional standard that emphasizes readability and consistency.
 * (ec) Italics will not introduce confusion. Chances are, many readers already know names for ships are already in italics as it's widely practiced (even if not always consistent) in other wikis, and even if MarioWiki is their first exposure to an italicized ship name, they can easily take inferences from context clues what the Princess Peach refers to and learn that ship names are in italics. Furthermore, italics already encompass many different kinds of works and is always reliant on context; Donkey Kong Country: Rescue on Crocodile Isle is referring to a book but can easily be interpreted as a title for a video game without any context or prior knowledge of the media. 18:58, December 12, 2020 (EST)
 * I'm not sure how Kingdom Hearts handles things (preliminary glancing suggests that series also doesn't italicize ships but there are so many different games and versions it may not be consistent), but I don't think it was sufficiently answered why the wiki must adopt this aspect of MLA style specifically when Nintendo themselves demonstrably do not. Other styles are just as valid if not moreso for the general purposes of a wiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:22, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * Nintendo is inconsistent with italicizing game titles: they don't do it for in-game text either, especially in Smash Bros. bios for characters where game titles are left unitalicized. I don't think they're the ideal model to look to when it comes to formatting things in an encyclopedic fashion because they serve a different medium: it's unnecessary for them to italicize things for in-game purposes. 14:53, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * But I still fail to understand what makes going further with MLA style ideal for this encyclopedia. There's a difference between italicizing subjects that exist in the real world and italicizing subjects that have never been officially italicized as they simply don't exist. In the end, it's a stylistic choice that not everyone universally uses - so again, why even enforce MLA in particular? Consider also that the topic of MLA has come up several times in the past, and each time it was decided not to strictly use it. Also, I understand that not all in-game text supports italics - which is why I am additionally referencing manuals, Nintendo Power, and related guides and supporting material, where it would have made the most sense to italicize these things (for example, here is the "SS Tea Cup" on the Wario Land II website). Different styles are meant for different purposes - for example, the U.S. Navy Style Guide specifies not to use "the" before a ship's name, running counter to "the Sweet Stuff" and "the Princess Peach" among all other mentions - so is it really our role to fix what, by most accounts, isn't broken? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:12, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * I realize that we're not explicitly using MLA but I think italics for works and the odd ship name is the way to go and in terms of general formatting, I think it's best to follow closer to that. I don't think it's that much of a major change but I'd like to see text for ship names appear similar to the ship names in Wikipedia, as well as fictional works. Citations should be formatted by the way and there's agreement that we need the formatting here and I'll still pressure featured articles to have proper sourcing. I think style guides can be inconsistent and some game guides don't italicize ship names, but I'm not really seeing the connection we have to make between game guides and wiki compared to looking at examples from big wikis. I will ask, however, about the reasoning for format to begin with: why do we bold the first instance of the subject in an article? Why italicize game names at all? Why even encourage italics for practically all major works (quotations for smaller works) and stop at ship names (as well as names for things not mentioned in our Manual of Style including web publications and artwork; what if a famous pop artist creates a titled work about Mario? should we not italicize even if it's not explicitly spelled out in the Manual of Style?) even if ship names are usually included? Why put dates in citations in parentheses? Why forbid the use of 2nd person? Why discourage contractions? In the end, this might just boil down to fundamental disagreement on how to format prose, but I feel the reasons for stopping at ship titles are reliant on nonencyclopedic styling from other sources, that we aren't adopting MLA (which is technically true it appears but I do not see the harm in using its suggestions especially when other encyclopedias do this) and the argument that we aren't Wikipedia (this needs to be backed up to why we should deviate here; only example given was the formatting on a video game article name regarding NiGHTS into Dreams which I do not think is a strong case against italicizing ship names and fictional works), which I do not agree. 21:00, December 13, 2020 (EST)
 * The change from NiGHTS into Dream... to Nights into Dreams is one I can only charitably describe as braindead idiocy, but if you want more examples of Mario Wiki articles that would be butchered under Wikipedia standards, a lot of titles should probably be considered generic within their context - meaning that we would uncapitalize the names of ape, bear, bees, chicken, cobra, cook, drill bit, ghost, hog, hot dog stand, unagi, poison mushroom, poltergeist, raccoon, sea turtle, shadow, small spider, snake, twister, urchin, among dozens of others. Then what? Do those names become unusable, or are we merely "fixing" Nintendo's "mistake"? Is that not going to put off readers expecting something more out of this wiki and have for years seen this corner of the Internet as being next to official to their interests? Frankly, becoming more like other wikis means going down a rabbit hole that I'll refuse to part of, so let's try to keep the discussion about "MLA style and its merits" instead of "MLA style because of Wikipedia". Now, our Manual of Style certainly does use a few elements of MLA*, but previous attempts to adopt MLA wholesale have been shot down (the main argument against this, by the way, isn't that we shouldn't properly source citations, but rather that such templates are too restrictive to one arbitrarily "right" style, promote unnecessary elitism, would be too cumbersome to enact, etc.). As for a reason for not italicizing ship names that doesn't boil down to "this is my personal preference"? Well, aside from the idea that it is not our place to "fix" Nintendo's fiction (interpretations are one thing, but corrections are another), keep in mind that said fiction is a fantastical video game franchise with outlandish things such as fanciful airships, barrel aircrafts, vehicle transformations, and advanced spaceships - are we really going to italicize all of these too despite how silly we will look? And if not, "why stop there" if it's MLA? If so, what about cases like the multipurpose Dribble Taxi, where there's no clear idea on if it should be unitalicized like most other automobiles or italicized like most other vessels? I just think this is much more trouble than it's worth. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:25, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * You are misinterpreting the goal of that citation proposal. The template would have been used in the same vein as in that it would have been an option for editors who opt for some formatting consistency. Also, promoting "elitism"? I see that as adhering to more academic conventions.  07:37, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * There are many other reasons it lost as sorting through all those comments is outside the scope of this discussion and, frankly, irrelevant (anyone is urged to read through and decide for themselves if those reasons are justified in their free time, hence "etc.", but I'm not the only one who disagrees with the notion that it must mean we do not encourage proper citations) - it serves as an example of MLA being brought up and rejected by other users in the past. I will address the "academic / looking to Wikipedia" angle as I feel it is relevant here: the simple fact is that we are not an academic resource, and . Furthermore, Wikipedia has a motto called . How about ? That would mean many things like Dayvv Brooks and NOA emails are out the window. ? Our stance is basically backwards from theirs. Among a myriad of reasons, modeling ourselves after Wikipedia (or most other wikis for that matter) does not suit the goals and needs of the Super Mario Wiki, which is to accurately represent all things Mario. It does no one any favors to get wrapped up in the trivialities of the formatting originating from more general wikis. Let's not use this as an excuse to sidestep active issues though. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:23, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * I will not disagree that this wiki has certain fundamentals that differentiate us from Wikipedia, such as our focus on original research--which I attempted to address in some capacity several years ago. However, us having a much lighter verification system (nonetheless dictated by the scope of our wiki) does not mean we should ignore certain conventions that are telling of a, dare I say, professional and believable medium. While wikis are generally unacceptable in academic sources, let's not forget that they in and of themselves are collections of research made by a community of users, which asks for certain conventions to be put in place. The bottom line is that this wiki is made of constants and variables; we are compatible with Wikipedia in some areas and in others we are not, and if something they do wouldn't harm our wiki or contradict its manual of style, I personally see no reason not to borrow from them. 09:10, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * The thing about the video clip proposal is that I believe it falls under in-game/media references, which are generally removed or considered unneeded (I do personally think we can change it a bit, but that's neither here nor there). That brings us full circle, however: why the need to borrow this aspect from MLA? I've been asking this since almost the start but I still don't have a satisfactory answer ("I'm not 100% sure" didn't exactly inspire confidence). If there are "some Wikipedia guidelines not strictly followed in our wiki" then why the push to be more like Wikipedia? It shouldn't mainly be because it's popular on other wikis, since it's been demonstrated how being much more like Wikipedia would only cause upheavals. Why does that style make this wiki more "professional" over other styles? I think a far more valuable trait on a wiki like this is internal consistency; a regular reader should not flip through game worlds and have to wonder why one level is suddenly the odd one out or find inconsistent italicization between a similar-themed nickname and real name. What about quotations? Those are already in italics, so we are losing detail when we are adding italics to things that don't already have them outside of quotes (this is already a minor annoyance of mine with about templates, but I digress). I realize this is anecdotal, but I've seen the Super Mario Wiki referred to as the "gold standard" in casual conversation within the past year or so. Let's keep it that way. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:15, December 14, 2020 (EST)
 * From what I understand, the subject we refer to as "The Princess Peach" on the wiki is the overarching area around the actual ship, not the ship itself. If so, this would make it a similar case to levels and WarioWare microgames named directly after certain games, such as Super Mario Kart (microgame), which we do not italicize on grounds of it not being the game Super Mario Kart. So too we wouldn't italicize The Princess Peach (and any other gameplay area names based on ships, such as Gangplank Galleon (world)) as it is not the ship itself. This eliminates the possibility you mentioned of leaving readers confused as to why one level stands out among the rest; any mentions of the actual ship will, however, be italicized if the proposal passes, and that applies to S.S. Caviar, Daisy Cruiser and Gangplank Galleon as well, along with all the other ships in the Mario universe. Also, can you provide examples in print or digital media where Nintendo italicized game titles? The Wario Land manual you offered above does not format the game's title in any distinctive way, so the point that the S.S. Teacup should remain unitalicized according to that falls asunder. 13:45, December 16, 2020 (EST)

@Glowsquid: How is following some of Wikipedia's guidelines "fundamentally offensive" to you? This proposal doesn't automatically call for a sudden following of Wikipedia standards to the letter. 14:09, December 16, 2020 (EST)
 * The last bullet point in the main proposal textstates "If MLA is not relevant, then we should be following styling standards from other wikis. Wikipedia is a major wiki and it italicizes ship names, so I believe it makes sense to try to follow Wikipedia in that regard." The main thrust of the proposal may not be "We should do it because Wikipedia does it" but the quoted is an implication that Wikipedia's adoption of the standard, in some way, legitimizes it or makes it preferable. I am stating my disagreement with that idea. --Glowsquid (talk) 16:48, December 16, 2020 (EST)

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