MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Delete Gallery:Super Mario. (Discuss) Deadline: October 1, 2014, 23:59 GMT
 * Change the infobox image for Bowser Jr. (Discuss) Deadline: October 5, 2014, at 23:59 GMT
 * Delete List of allies. (Discuss) Deadline: October 8, 2014, 23:59 GMT
 * Split Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U into and  (Discuss) Deadline: October 11, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

New Article
I was reading New Super Mario Bros. Wii when it hit me. We should make an Article called New Super Mario Bros. (Series). I mean really, look how muuch installments we have in the series and new ones coming soon. Also, we have Mario & Luigi (series) article, a Mario Kart (series) article and a Mario Party (series) article. So why not we make one for the New Super Mario Bros. Series while it is a popular series. Also, it can provide editorial oppurtunities because millions play it.

Proposer: Deadline: September 30, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) I Support this Idea
 * 2) Per proposal. Why the heck not? I think it'd work pretty good.

Oppose

 * 1) - Pretty much agree with what Walkazo said below; the NSMB series is part of the main Super Mario series and should not be separated from the rest of the games just because the gameplay is different. With the sports series and the RPG series, they are separate from the main games, therefore being deserving of a separate article to list the games and details of the series. The main series page we have now is fine and works well.
 * 2) We're messing with the foundation of the organization of this wiki. This proposal opens up questions regarding other "subseries" as well, including Super Mario Land, Super Mario 3D "thing", Super Mario Galaxy, and other subseries like that. Your examples describe standalone series, and New Super Mario Bros. is NOT a standalone series; it's a subseries of the "mainstream" Mario platformers. If this proposal passes, we have to acknowledge the existence of this New Super Mario Bros. series, which means we have to reorganize the history sections of a whole lot of articles, reorganize the navigational templates, and other things. Consider, if the door to acknowledging Super Mario Land and Super Mario 3D "thing" is opened because of this proposal, that means further reorganization of the history sections. Call me a slippery-slope spouter, but the amount of supports already, I find kind of alarming, so I'm opposing immediately.
 * 3) The way our lists are currently set up (which, as Walkazo pointed out below, are a mess and in need of maintenance), this would require a little restructuring and will most definitely have a snowball effect on the rest of the series lists. There is also the matter of acknowledging NSMB as a serperat series, what a series is, does it mesh with our current archiving methods, what are the long term effects on the rest of the lists (the snowball effect I mentioned). As Mario put it above, we're messing with the foundation here and I'm not comfortable with messing with the ground we're standing on till I'm sure the house isn't going to fall down as a result. There are various things to consider here and I don't feel that a proposal is going to offer enough time or space to hash them all out. My recommendation is to identify the various issues people are going to have, discuss them with the community on the forums, then bring the agreed upon criteria back here.
 * 4) The New Super Mario Bros Series is a sub-series of a sub-series in a series, which the wiki currently doesn't find applicable of having a page. Changing this would, like the people above said, cause a chain reaction, and end up making a everyone confused as to what deserves a page or not. If you make a proposal on changing how the wiki deals with Sub-series of sub-series (such as Mario Kart Arcade) that sounds reasonable, then this would be a good idea. In other words, per all.
 * 5) - Per myself in the comments, and per above, and per past proposals and discussions on similar matters. The Super Mario subseries is best read about as a whole, rather than breaking it into chunks; keeping the overall subseries page but making a separate NSMB-only sub-sub-series page isn't a solution to that since it just creates redundant duplication of info. It could also have repercussions on how History sections and other aspects of the wiki are organized, but in these cases too, keeping Super Mario games together makes more sense than splitting them up or getting horribly nested sub-sub-sub-sections and whatnot. Plus, making one sub-sub-series page might lead to more and more getting made, when we should really be focusing on making the series pages we already have actually look good.
 * 6) Not that any of my votes matter anyway. What I would say has already been said. And in depth.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Those series are all larger than the NSMB series. NSMB is still a relatively small series. And per everything else.

Comments
Haven't we been through this? - 22:22, 22 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, exactly, the problem is that NSMB isn't actually a standalone series like the examples listed - it's a sub-series of the overall Super Mario series, and thus, giving it a series page is actually something new and has implications for how we deal with the other sub-sets of Super Mario games. Will the original SMB games they get a series? What about how NSMB is basically just a modern continuation of the oldschool sidescrollers - is it really right to split them up? What about the 3D games, or will only the one with "3D" in the title get their own series page? And what are the implications for History section orders, templates and other wiki-wide organizational systems: right now, everything's pretty consistently going by the overall Super Mario series, and I'm leery of messing around with that. Plus, series pages are currently a mess anyway: I feel like it might be better to focus efforts on fixing up the existing Super Mario series page rather than making one or more new, smaller series pages that are basically just duplicated subsets of the overall series... - 22:46, 23 September 2014 (EDT)

Well, the Super Mario 3D series and the Super Mario Galaxy series are (currently!) just duos, but I'm curious about this; We don't have a page for this, and yet its amount of games are up to par with Super Mario Advance if New Super Luigi U isn't counted, and with the current number of Mario vs. Donkey Kong if it is. Is there areason for that? Especially because the SMA games are remakes with Mario Bros. stuck on. So basically, I can't vote yet.

Aside: Sorry for the premature deletion, everyone. Seemed like an open and shut violation to me and it probably would have been if a discussion hadn't broken out between us about this very subject at the same time. -- Ghost Jam 06:32, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@Mario @GhostJam Erm... you two really have fear of changing some basics? I'm not blaming you at all, but I find it, like, a bit strange. Changing rules is a thing that sometimes in a project (MarioWiki, in this case) happens. By the by, I want to remember proposals can easily change from a win to a lose...
 * But wait, the Super Mario Advance series is just a remake collection. At this point, since NSMB series is, more than a remake, a (sub)series, what should we do? Delete that too? I don't understand the organization anymore. Please, explain it to me.

Look we made Subseries into pages such as Mario Kart, Mario Party, etc. and there is enough installments (5) so why oppose? And SMB, SMB2, SMB3 did not have the word "New" in their names so i am not saying "count them" i mean the 5 installments (NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2, NSMBU, NSLU) also this series is still pretty popular so let's do it when it is still popular.


 * @Tsunami Advance gets it own series page because it's just a remake series, not a new instalment in the Super Mario Bros. line like the NSMB games are.
 * @IggyKoopa777 Mario Kart and Mario Party are a completely separate and cut-off sub series from the Super Mario (Bros.) series, wheras the New Super Mario Bros series is a sub series of a sub series. Changing this would result in a lot of chages, and lots of them wouldn't make sense. If we take a while and work something out, then we can understand what would go where. - 08:49, 24 September 2014 (EDT)


 * @Ninelevendo What? Super Mario Bros. is a subseries? Of what? We don't have "Super Mario 2D (series)". Sorry, I don't get this at all. NSMB could also simply be a continuation of it. I recognize all pseudo-series as series, and the Super Mario series as a whole as a collection of them. I have confusion, so I will be neautral by not voting like BabyLuigi64 does.

@Iggy Koopa777 I should also add, Mario Kart and Mario Party are MUCH larger than NSMB, both have hit more than ten titles. The Mario Kart games reach a total of 11 games including arcade titles, meanwhile, Mario Party reaches 16, again including arcade games but discounting MP10. Therefore, the articles can be and are much more expansive. @Tsunami I think Ninelevendo is referring to how the Super Mario Bros. games are a subset of the Mario series as a whole.
 * And then, if the Super Mario 2D is ever recognized as a series (I know it isn't), where is it placed in the diagram I am starting figuring out? I'm thinking a diagram image should be uploaded to avoid confusion. Not the general one, we already have it. By the way, no, I won't vote again, but remain neautral.

Just a reminder that new comments always go on the bottom, lest this becomes a total mess. Anyway, as long as a set of games has three or more entries, it can get a series, that's not the problem here: the real question isn't "how much", it's "what". I.e. should a sub-sub-series of the Super Mario sub-series (of the overall Mario series) get a series article like its parent sub-series and other sub-series (like Mario Kart and whatnot), or is that going to cause organizational issues and inconsistencies between articles and series pages, duplication of information, and/or a snowball effect of sub-sub-series pages for increasingly blurry game groupings? I.e. should the original SMB games get a page too? Should SM64, SMS and the Galaxy games be grouped together as the more open-world platformers? Should the 3D games go with them because it's also 3D even if it's a bit more sidescrollery? If they make a third Galaxy game, will it get a separate series page? If they make a third 3D Land/World/etc. game, will it get a page? If they make a 3D Galaxy game then what do we do? And going outside the Super Mario games, should the three Mario Kart Arcade GP games get a page? Or the Super Mario Fushigi arcade party games? Do we really want to start prying open these cans of worms when the series pages we can agree on are already in rough shape? Anyway, the points about there already being a Super Mario Advance (series) are fair, and part of me feels like it'd be easier to just delete that page, but it's a bit different in that it's also got the Yoshi's Island remake in there, so it's not purely a subset of Super Mario-only games. It might be best to have a separate discussion/proposal about that series page... - 16:27, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@TsunamiIt has less to do with fear of change and more to do with apprehension over overhauling an already incomplete system. The fact that we only have one main-sub-series page is endemic of the problem and most of us just aren't comfortable letting it spread without having a discussion about the long reaching effects of such a change. Also, I disagree with this comment at the bottom thing. I can't speak for anyone else, but I find this @[PERSON] crap harder to follow than just having a standard reply indent. -- Ghost Jam 20:27, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

@Mario @GhostJam Erm... you two really have fear of changing some basics? I'm not blaming you at all, but I find it, like, a bit strange. Changing rules is a thing that sometimes in a project (MarioWiki, in this case) happens. By the by, I want to remember proposals can easily change from a win to a lose...
 * I'm not afraid to change the basics. But this proposal is changing how we organize the wiki, and I don't really like to change multitudes among multitudes of history sections. Plus, it does invite discussions about those other "mainstream" platformer subseries like Super Mario Land. Our system isn't superbly flawed either, so it gives me and several other editors much less incentive to work so much with so little payoff.
 * As far as I remember, 'kazo, isn't Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island considered part of the "mainstream" Mario platformer games by some guys at Nintendo? 21:44, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but the consensus was that the wiki was gonna keep it separated for organizational purposes, citing the different gameplay, and the Yoshi Egg logo, and other things like that as reasons why it has more in common with the Yoshi series that followed it, rather than the SM series that spawned it. Plus, it's not in the SMASLE "Super Mario History" booklet (the other three SMA games were included), which is pretty much our only concrete official published Nintendo weigh-in on what's pat of the "Super Mario" series; iirc, Miyamoto said they consider it part of the main series (or something like that) in an interview, which wasn't worth uprooting the wiki's organizational system. And still isn't. -
 * Sorry for bugging you. I couldn't find an argument against that statement, since I'm also really iffy on that sort of stuff. I don't know how I missed conversations regarding that. So yeah, there's always a new person who needs an explanation. ^^' 22:13, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The debate was two years ago and was mostly exhausting walls of text by me and rebuttals laced with nasty little barbs from the other guy. The forum thread specifically about the interview actually ended up getting locked and thrown in topic storage, it got so badly derailed. -
 * Thanks for letting me know. I think it was during the time of my temporary year-long departure (please don't ask why), so yeah, I missed quite a lot there. 23:20, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Well, it ended in no change, so you didn't really miss much more than a messy debate. @Ghost Jam: I've seen some really screwed up Comments sections, like with people inserting new arguments about a point that was already discussed below, and posting three new comments when one could be done, and whatnot, and overall, it can make conversations/stances look circular or contrary or just plain messy. It's much easier to just always put stuff at the bottom, and indenting can still be used in addition to "@whoever:" for extra continuity (i.e. if a conversations' very indented and then someone comes and makes some unrelated (unindented) remark, just ignore it and stick with the indenting, although it breaks down if there's lots of remarks between the old post and the response). -

Ok. Let's clear up this confusion. I am NOT talking about old school games like SMB or SML. I mean NSMBU, NSMB, NSMBWii, NSMB2 and and NSLU. And Can't anyone notice the title is called New Super Mario Bros. (Series) notice that "New" part there?, yeah, that is what i am talking about. It says it right there New Super Mario Bros. (Series). NOT Super Mario Bros. (Series).
 * That's not the problem. The problem is by acknowledging a new subseries, we have to rewrite history sections for a whole ton of articles. Plus, just because it has "new" doesn't mean it's a subseries. By the logic, Super Mario Land and Super Mario 3D "thing" and Super Mario Galaxy may qualify as additional subseries, which will we will further have to accommodate for the changes. 17:13, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * The thing you don't understand is that the word "New" doesn't mean that it's a different series, it is still part of the Super Mario [Bros.] (series). - 17:33, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * We're talking about how we would handle it with other sub-subseries games; we can't make a proposal for one without it affecting similar things.
 * Which is why I suggested moving this to the forums where an organized discussion can take place. Bring the results of that discussion back to here and we'll vote on it again. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 19:27, 27 September 2014 (EDT)

@Ninelevendo Look there is many differences also note that Super Mario Advance is made into a Series article But Wait!, it is just remakes. Also is it in 2D, do you see it's power ups in the old school version?


 * Do you see Super Paper Mario with turn based battles? Yet it's still a Paper Mario game. Do you see 4 separate characters in Mario Party 9? Yet it's still a Mario Party game. The fact that it's different is a flawed argument. The New Super Mario Bros. Series is a series within a series. Therefore splitting this would question things like the Mario Kart Arcade series. - 22:46, 27 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Actually, keeping the Mario Kart Arcade series together with the entire Mario Kart series is a debatable argument 18:36, 28 September 2014 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I'd argue for splitting the Arcade series into another series. It wouldn't have as much as a ripple effect since it's a much narrower scope, but... eh? 18:51, 28 September 2014 (EDT)

@Superfiremario: Size doesn't get factored in as much when it comes to separate series. Mario & Luigi, Mario Strikers, and Mario Baseball have less games than the collective New Super Mario Bros. subseries. Just letting you know. 22:43, 28 September 2014 (EDT)

Ok, lets explain something. First, We made Paper Mario into a series page and it has only 4 installments and there is huge differences in this so called "Series". plus the 3DS adaptation is called New Super Mario Bros. 2. Wait wait wait?!, New Super Mario Bros. 2 notice the 2 part there?, it sounds a lot like a series.
 * I don't get the analogy. From its debut, New Super Mario Bros. is originally something like a "revival" of the traditional 2D Mario platformers. It spawned several sequels bearing the name "new". I agree that New Super Mario Bros. is a sub-subseries, but we're not arguing about that. We're arguing on whenever it deserves its own series page. The way the wiki is structured, we put all the "mainstream" Mario platformers into one group, and I think this organizational structure is going swimmingly. Now, if we were to create a separate series page, we have to reorganize our history sections. Not only this, this proposal will invite discussion on whenever Sunshine and 64 should be grouped as a subseries, whenever the Super Mario Land games should be grouped, whenever the Galaxy games should be grouped, and whenever the Super Mario 3D Land/World games should be grouped. That's the fundamental part of my and several other opposers' arguments, and you're consistently not getting that point.


 * Finally, such subseries page is redundant with Super Mario (series). Now, now, we do have redundant subseries pages including DK (series), Konkey Dong Country (series), but that's a problem we're trying to deal with and adding this subsubseries as an article is going to add on to our headaches. 23:12, 28 September 2014 (EDT)


 * I think the overall DK series (containing DKC/L, Konga, plus other things like Barrel Blast, etc.) is more akin to the overall Mario series rather than any one of its subseries, so it having subseries isn't an issue like the Super Mario subseries potentially having sub-sub-series. Similarly, there's overall Wario and Yoshi series, both of which can have subseries (Wario already does, with Wario Land, WarioWare and standalone things). Categories and Coverage both reflect this "big 4" approach. -
 * One thing: You keep mentioning other series that get pages (Paper Mario, Mario Party, Mario Kart, Mario & Luigi) but they are standalone series. The four are part of no bigger karting/racing, party, or RPG series. As commonly agreed upon, New Super Mario Bros. is an extension/revival of the original quartet of Super Mario Bros. games. Therefore, it is considered a subset of the whole Super Mario Bros. series. It's not that we don't think of the games as a series (oh and by the way, numbers aren't everything in determining a series, look at Paper Mario) but it's a smaller set of another.

I doubt this proposal will pass, oh well, at least i tried. Dreams do not come true every day.
 * If you'd take the advice we're giving you, your dream may come true someday. You're facing two main problems here:
 * 1. This has the potential to turn into something bigger than can be contained in a single proposal. It needs to either be split up into a wider discussion or several more proposals. I'd go with the discussion first.
 * 2. You're fighting the proposal process itself, whether you realize it or not, so you pretty much lost this on day one. This relates to the last point pretty heavily.
 * If you think this change is best for the wiki, address the concerns we've stated and work for an amicable solution. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Ghost Jam[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 01:33, 1 October 2014 (EDT)

Removals
None at the moment.

Changes
None at the moment.

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.