Talk:Undergrunt

Should the Undergrunts be related to Monty Mole or not?
I wanted to discuss this topic to see what the Mario Wiki thinks about the moles in Mario Galaxy being Monty Mole species or not. Yes, I do know that we classify them as unrelated as of now, but I made this proposal due to some people still thinking they are related even after the agreement of them being not. So anyways, I am curious on what this wiki thinks about these mole species being related or not. Also, whether we say they are related or not, we should not instantly say that Undergrunts are Monty Mole species or relatives to them. For now at least, we should only consider them comparable, and we will only say they are related if an official source says that they are. I think it should be by proxy to not say a species is related to another unless explicit proof says otherwise (this is why Ragumo is considered a Monty Mole relative, but not the Undergrunts).

Proposer: Deadline: December 13, 2021, 23:59 GMT December 20, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: They are unrelated to the Monty Mole species.

 * 1) I do not see why some people say that they are Monty Mole species. Nobody ever says other moles not confirmed to be Monty Mole species are related to Monty Moles so I do not see why the Undergrunts get a pass since they also have no official sources stating them as Monty Mole species. So yeah, I believe that the moles in Super Mario Galaxy were meant to be a separate mole species unrelated to Monty Mole. I only think people confused them as being related because of them being in a main series game and having a few similarities to the Monty Mole species.
 * 2) Per MontyMoleLoreMaster.
 * 3) Clearly. Just because they're moles, doesn't mean they're related. They may be comparable, but definitely being relatives of Monty Moles, or being Monty Moles at all? No, no confirmation on that. At least Ragumo had a Japanese media noting the similarity. Per all.
 * 4) Per all. At best they're just comparable, like Maw-Ray and Gringill.

Option 2: They are related or are relatives to the Monty Mole species.

 * 1) - There's too many design similarities (especially to the early days, note the cheeks) for it to be a coincidence. While I wouldn't call them a "variant" without more concrete evidence, I think relative is fine.
 * 2) They share some distinguishable traits with Monty Moles anyways (and their relatives also bear similarities with Rocky Wrenches), so I think this makes the most sense.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per Doc von Schmeltwick. This would additionally create a large inconsistency to how we treat the difference between Swoop and Bat (Super Mario Galaxy).
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Technically they are related. Per all.

Comments
I think saying they are comparable is the best option due to the similarities. And also for the fact that they are never confirmed to be related at all. Ragumo at least was mentioned of being a Monty Mole relative yet the Undergrunts were not (for all we know). I believe that Undergrunts were probably at least inspired by Monty Moles, I just don’t think they are meant to be related to them since if they were, a guidebook would most likely claim them to be Monty Mole species like Ragumo (I have not checked any Japanese guidebooks so maybe they say that they are related in those? If they do could someone check it out?). I was wondering about that German name for Undergrunt Gunner? What would that play into this? (Correction: it is not really the name of origin since it is German and not Japanese which are usually the sources of names. So it is still probably up in the air for now about the relations). MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 18:07, November 30, 2021 (EST)


 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, Also there are other enemies with similarities to specific species that are not considered related to said species. For example, Skeletal Fish Guards that also appeared in Super Mario Galaxy are similar to Fishbones in terms of design and functionality. However, they are not considered related to them due to no official sources claiming it. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts and Monty Moles. Yeah the Undergrunts have some similarities in design and attack patterns. But they seem to be separate to the Monty Mole species like how Skeletal Fish Guards are separate to Fishbones. If they were meant to be related, one of the English guidebooks (such as the Prima ones) would have probably confirmed it. I think Prima never claimed them to be Monty Mole species due to them not thinking they were related (since they would probably said they were related otherwise). MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 22:34, November 30, 2021 (EST)
 * Thing is, SMG "Monty" is pretty much conceptually identical to Rocky Wrench (to the point there must be some influence), and Undergrunt is derived from it (to the point that before evidence showing otherwise, the wiki made the reasonable assumption they were one-off redesigns of Rocky and Monty). Anyways, since I stand by Monty Mole being derived from Rocky Wrench, this makes the most sense to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:52, December 2, 2021 (EST)
 * I also want to point out that Super Mario-kun also never considered them related. Major Burrows appeared in the Galaxy arc and they made no reference to them being Monty Mole species or made them designed to look like them (Maruigi Khed told me). Several moles such as Guragura and Hard Hat also appeared in the manga with no design changes or mentions of them being Monty Mole species as well. On the contrary, Ragumo was designed to look like Monty Mole in volume 6. This is probably because they actually had an official source at least hinting at them being relatives. So yeah, Super Mario-kun probably makes some moles look like Monty Moles due to them having an official confirmation or similar appearance to them. But if a mole had no official sources saying they were related such as Major Burrows they would treat them as a separate species. I think this might also hint at the Japanese guidebooks also not saying this at all. If they did think Major Burrows was related, I believe they would make them designed like Monty Mole or just state it due to a Japanese guidebook saying it. I think them not stating it is probably a subtle way of them thinking they are not related, due to no official sources saying otherwise. Also about your last comment, there are other video game enemies such as Madmole that have token inspiration from Rocky Wrench’s attack patterns. I think the SMG Monty probably took inspiration from the attack patterns and nothing else. Also I don't think they look like any Monty Mole species due to nose, eyes, and even the size being to large. They just look completely separate in my personal opinion. Other moles such as the Mario RPG Moles and Cook from Wario Land 2 have similar designs to Monty Mole yet have nothing related to that species. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts due to them looking completely different and it was probably coincidental. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 22:02, December 2, 2021 (EST)
 * "Mole-looking thing that throws mushrooms from another franchise owned by another company" is different from "mole-looking thing that throws wrenches." Also, SM-K is a licensed work, so it's not that much closer to Nintendo EAD's specific vision than the DiC cartoons. It also needs said that before NSMBW standardized designs across the board, Nintendo was still experimenting how things in the series should look (note how Urchins in SMG look slightly different from later). It's the same reason we assumed (incorrectly) that Spoing and Sprangler were another Scuttle Bug redesign and that Bat was another Swoop redesign (though admittedly it was in early development). I wouldn't treat SMG Monty as a subtype of Rocky Wrench without explicit proof, but it's effectively a counterpart, and the same goes for Undergrunt with Monty Mole (note that Monty Moles leave similar mole trails in later Mario Kart games, and the reddish coloration of SMG Monty resembling SMAS's Rocky Wrench, with Undergrunt being brown like Monty Moles). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:17, December 2, 2021 (EST)
 * Well I believe if they were related, a official guidebook both either English or Japanese would just simply say that their Monty Mole species. But no guidebooks ever said that probably due to them thinking they are separate species. Also the similarities that you pointed out are a little strange. Monty Moles probably dug through the ground with trails Mario Kart Wii onwards more of an evolution to the original formula of them jumping out of their holes. I do not think Nintendo had it inspired by the Undergrunt’s attack pattern due to another point I will bring up later. SMG Montys are clearly not red, they are obviously a brown color to probably better match the Undergrunts and not Rocky Wrenches (note how they have nothing in common with Rocky Wrench in terms of design). Undergrunts being brown is also not that good of a point due to several moles in the Mario series are brown, and brown is also a very common color for moles in media so yeah no luck on that. The only similarities I can think of to the Undergrunt and Monty Mole species is that SMG Monty throws wrenches (which yes, was most likely at least inspired by Rocky Wrench, I think it probably does not go beyond just moles that throw wrenches. You also forgot that Rocky Wrenches were not really called moles often before NSMBW, mostly primarily being called turtles. However, I think they might have tried to make them more like mole-like ever since their planned appearance in Yoshi’s Island, though it is not fully 100% confirmed). And that Undergrunt Gunners have cannons like the Mario Sunshine Monty Moles. Other then those two things, they do not have much common with Monty Moles besides pretty minor similarities. I also want to point out that there was never a point in Mario history where the behavior of these moles are never used or mentioned with Monty Mole species (at least as an obvious reference). Yes, I do know that some Monty Mole species only appeared in one game, but Undergrunts reappeared in Galaxy 2 with again no references to them being Monty Mole species. Finally, one very major reason of them being unrelated is due to them not having any filenames to give say that they are related to Monty Mole (otherwise, they would probably have a reference to Pū or Choropū in their filenames). The Urchins and Bats also from Mario Galaxy at least have filenames that connect them to their species. The relationship between Undergrunts and Monty Moles is as comparable to the relationship between Skeletal Fish Guards and Fishbones due to their similarities, yet no official source confirming them being related. The Undergrunt filenames are just Japanese names for moles which probably indicates them being a totally separate species. I think that last point might be my strongest reason on why they are unrelated to Monty Mole. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:52, December 2, 2021 (EST)

It's probably too late for any big changes because there's already several votes, but I wanted to point out, I feel like Options 1 and 2 can be combined since there's always a possibility of a contradictory official source coming to light that necessitates the wiki readdress something (otherwise, it looks more like a poll, which isn't really the purpose of a proposal); Option 3 should be last since it's the status quo choice; -maybe- Option 4 could be broken down into two due to there being a difference between related and relative; and Option 5 just seems like a bridge too far and can probably be cut altogether, considering Monty Moles have never worn Undergrunt helmets and it would shake up the relation decided in previous proposals. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:32, December 1, 2021 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty, Yes I know the fifth option is incorrect, I only added it because someone still might think that way. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:02, December 3, 2021 (EST)

@FanOfYoshi, your right, but I wanted to add that they barely have any similarities to that of Monty Moles. The only major one they have is SMG Monty attacking like a Rocky Wrench. Most of the other similarities might have been loose inspiration to them like with some other enemy (like how Suu acts like a Thwomp or Skeletal Fish Guards acting like Fishbones), but I do not think it was like meant to make them fully related. They have a completely different design and behaviors (mostly), and nothing in the game files that hint at them as Monty Mole species (like how Morty Mole had Indy in their filename to indicate that they were based on Mega Moles). Super Mario Galaxy had a ton of weird enemies, so I believe that the moles seen in the Galaxy games were most likely made to be a separate species of moles unrelated to the Monty Mole species that people just confused with them (like how Super Mario RPG had a separate species of moles to use as NPCs with no relations to Monty Mole). The points you made are extremely valid, but I wanted to add on with my thoughts as well. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 22:26, December 6, 2021 (EST)

I am surprised how mixed the results were. I did want to add one thing really quick, despite SMG Monty acting like Rocky Wrench, they do not appear in any airship levels. This game was meant to be a big return for airships, yet, SMG Monty never appears in any of those levels. I find it weird how they made an entirely different mole enemy that acts like Rocky Wrench to only not use them in any airship levels, despite this game trying to be the big "return" of airships. Personally, New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Super Mario 3D Land defiantly felt more like big returns to airships then Galaxy ever tried to be. Plus, those two games actually had Rocky Wrenches and not an unrelated Mole species that copied off of them. I know that they are definitely not Rocky Wrenches or even being related to them, but I just wanted to point this out. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 14:01, December 11, 2021 (EST)

I want to add one last comment before the proposal ends. Monty Moles rarely are ever featured in space areas. The only times the species have ever been to space were the two Monty Mole Constellations in Mario Party 9 and Island Tour, Mischievous Mole digging through the moon, and finally, appearing on a few small asteroids alongside a big Monty Mole in the Yoshi’s Crafted World level The Countdown Begins. Monty Moles are rarely seen in space, and considering that Undergrunts only appear in the Mario Galaxy games, I think it makes it more obvious that they are unrelated. Undergrunts seem like a separate species of mole that appear only in space, with Monty Moles being more on earth. This actually explains why they are never referenced to the Monty Mole species, it is because they are an entirely different species of mole far away from the Monty Mole species. I think this is even more solid evidence to say that they are not related. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 18:04, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure setting has absolutely nothing to do with the two enemies; Undergrunts are featured in a level with a blue sky filled with fruit and caterpillars eating it. Plus, the same thing applies to Swoop and the bats from Super Mario Galaxy (even sharing the same Japanese name as them) and they're still considered variants. 22:57, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * The setting point is understandable. But the difference between comparing the bats and Swoop over Undergrunts and Monty Moles is that with the bats they do have an official filename that shares a Japanese name with Swoop. Undergrunts on the other hand have no filename that hints at them being Monty Mole species. If they were planned to be related, they would have probably used a Monty Mole-like filename instead of just generic Japanese mole names. Both the bats and Undergrunts are in Mario Galaxy, so maybe it was intentional for the bats to be related to Swoops, but the Undergrunts to stay separate to Monty Mole. Besides, the Undergrunt species barely have anything in common with the Monty Mole species besides some similarities. The only major thing they share is a mole that throws wrenches and that is about it. Undergrunts are also never compared to Monty Mole species in any official English or Japanese guidebooks I know of (unless I am wrong). MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:09, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * They're relatives of Montys, where those enemies names are inspired by Monty Moles, so I think they're related by proxy. 23:12, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * Their Japanese name is just "Mogu" with no hint of something like Pū for example with most other Monty Mole species (not all of them apply to the Pū rule but still). The Monty name came from the Prima Guide, so it could have been an accidental translation error (like the Sumo and Sledge Bro mistake). The other Moles are just referred to as moles so it could be just a generic name. Besides, they act like Rocky Wrenches and not Monty Moles. They are also never referenced in being Monty Mole species in future games with no new additions to the species attack patterns or something. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:17, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * Bro, I believe that we can’t just say this Mole species is 100% a Monty Mole species. There is no official confirmation so I believe that they are unrelated. We should only treat species as related if they have any official confirmation that states it, we should not call enemy species with no official confirmation as related with no full proof. So do not put the Undergrunts as Monty Moke relatives cause they are not. There is nothing that states them being related so we should not say they are related without proof of something calling them related (like with Ragumo). At least the Bats have confirmation, the Undergrunts have nothing. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:33, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * Please don't coerce voters into your side by claiming your stance is the correct one around here. Use proper argumentative techniques to persuade voters rather than assert your position as the only correct one here. 23:50, December 13, 2021 (EST)
 * Sorry about that, I just don’t think that these Moles are related, nor should we consider then related despite no official sources claiming it. I do not think we should just say their relatives straight away. I would at least wait until an official source says that they are related. Otherwise, we should just say they are comparable for now. No offense or anything, just want to make sure that we do not jump the shark and make such a bold claim with nothing backing it. Do you agree that this is the best option to do? MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 23:55, December 13, 2021 (EST)

There are several technical issues with this proposal that I want to point out before further voting and discussion happens, and this is directed at the current options and the way they are worded.
 * The options are skewed towards your biases and need rewriting, especially Option 1, the one you're in favor in. Rewrite option 1 to say "They are unrelated to the Monty Mole species", remove the phrase regarding "concrete information".
 * Option 2 is vague platitudes and is not a viable proposal option. Statements such as "I think" or "I believe" or "It might...." should never be options in a proposal where you vote because you believe strongly in a position, and the results are required to have a concrete effect.
 * Option 3 is not a viable position to pick. Nobody cares that you don't care about the subject matter at hand, and there would be little tangible result if there was a voter who voted for that option, when the point of a proposal is to attain voters to change the wiki around. If you don't care about the subject matter, then don't vote, simple as that.
 * Option 4 and 5 need rewording and needs to be condensed to be a more digestible position. Option 4 should just say "They are relatives of Monty Moles species." 5 can just say "Undergrunts are Monty Moles".

Please fix these problems to make your proposal much more presentable. 00:08, December 14, 2021 (EST)

From your vote, I think they are related to Monty Moles. It’s quite obvious due to similar behaviors and similar design. I recommend giving a stronger vote.
 * They don't have much in common with Monty Moles since they have barely look the same, and they have completely different attack patterns to (excluding SMG Monty) which are never used in any future game by Monty Moles. They are also way bigger to them being the size of Mario. It seems like their a separate mole species with some inspiration on Monty Mole, but nothing more then some similarities. The SMG bats at least have an official source saying they are Swoop species, there is nothing like that for the Undergrunts. I think they should only be comparable at most, unless an official source states that they are Monty Mole species (like with Ragumo). They should only be called relatives or species of them if an official source says it, we do not say they are related only for similarities (that is why we only said they were comparable in the first place). For now, it seems like Undergrunts were made to be a separate species of moles. Also, one of them being named Monty is not a full proof answer for most likely being something from being probably an error from Prima Guide. The Prima Guide for Galaxy 1 never compared to them as Monty Moles and mostly just called them moles. Also, their Japanese and filenames only use generic words that mean mole like "Mogu". There is nothing in any Japanese sources that say that even hint at a relation to Monty Mole. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 10:18, December 14, 2021 (EST)

Also, don't we not consider a species related to another unless there is an official confirmation that says they are related? The Mario Galaxy moles are not confirmed to be Monty Mole species at all (and no, one of them being named Monty does not count), so why should we consider them related when no official sources state them as such? That is also why comparing the relationship between Monty Moles and Undergrunts to Swoops and the SMG Bats is a bad comparison since one has an official source saying they are related and the other does not. Saying that Undergrunts are Monty Mole species is like saying the Mario RPG moles are Monty Mole species. Neither of those two species have official sources saying that they are related even if they very loosely look similar to Monty Moles. So I do not see why the Undergrunts should get a pass for this when other moles have similar behaviors and designs and are considered unrelated. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 12:30, December 14, 2021 (EST)

Another thing I wanted to mention is that Monty Moles and Undergrunts barely look similar to each other. Undergrunts are at least twice the size of Monty Moles, Undergrunts have more triangular and bigger claws compared to Monty Mole’s more smaller claws, Undergrunts have multiple teeth while Monty Mole only has one tooth, Undergrunts have bulgy eyes instead of Monty Mole’s more closed eyes (even when Monty Mole’s eyes do open, they still look less bulgy), Undergrunts have more mouse/rat-like noses which do not even closely resemble the Monty Mole noses seen in Super Mario World besides being long, Undergrunts have whiskers on their nose while Monty Moles have them on their face, Undergrunts have cheeks on their face which Super Mario World Monty Moles had on the side of their face instead, and finally, Undergrunts are a much darker brown compared to Monty Moles. Undergrunts do not even closely resemble Monty Moles in anyways besides small similarities like a belly pattern. I do not see why people think that Undergrunts are meant to look like Monty Moles, since it is clearly obvious that they look completely different just by comparing the two. This could also probably be intentional to make them look different to Monty Mole, since like I said, their file and Japanese names have no hints of them being Monty Moles and are just generic mole names. Which probably subtly states that they are a completely separate species of moles meant for space with no relation to Monty Mole. So yeah, Undergrunts barely even resemble Monty Moles or even their Super Mario World design. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 20:37, December 14, 2021 (EST)