Talk:List of Mario games

How does everyone feel about a list of cancelled Mario games? Or even a list of famous hacked Mario games? -- Ghost Jam 22:32, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
 * I think Cancelled Games, as in unique titles and not moved titles, is a good addition, but hacked games (like Super Demo World, a harder hacked 120-exit version of Super Mario World) is user created and therefore a bad idea. Wayoshi ( T&middot;C&middot;@ ) 22:40, 30 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Why not moved titles? One could add a note to the end what each game became, like on wikipedias List of Cancelled Video Games. Besides, most titles like that are alread redirected to the correct page (on this wiki). I agree with you on the point of hacked games. I was thinking more of Super Mario Bros. 3 Special and Super Mario World NES. -- Ghost Jam 23:31, 30 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I think hacked games should be listed on another page, or a section within this page. And I mean games that actually were released as game paks and sold. Red.Tide 11:17, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Technically, hacked/pirated games are considered fan games and if we start making articles about them, we might have to make articles on all fan games and... you don't want that, do you? 20:47, 6 March 2007 (EST)\\

I was talking about the ones sold for money, so actual commercially pirated ones. There's not that many of those, are there? But I somewhat agree, I don't want to write about all the crappy Game Maker and Flash games that feature Mario... Red.Tide 10:36, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Acually Bulbapedia has an article about Hacked games, but only the ones that sold for money, like Red Tide was talking about. DooPliss42 10:29, 22 July 2011 (EDT)

Remakes
Do'nt remakes deserve there own articles, instead of just redirecting back to the original game? - User: Ultimatetoad

In a few cases yes. I don't think an extra article should be made just because a game had a few extra features. A few exceptions can be made, like DKR and DKRDS. 20:47, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Maybe as a side note in the main articles, and the name of the remakes being redirecting to the main article? --Stumpers

Virtual Console....
Seiously, there should be a list of Virtual Console games there. It looks better, and some people might want to know exactly what Mario games the VC has. ~LordKenny


 * Make it hap'n, cap'n. -- Son of Suns


 * Oops, thats not what I ment. I mean already released Virtual Console games. And sure, I'll get to work on that. ~LordKenny

Help
Um guys I see that the table list for the wii looks mess up??? Princess Butterfly 18:30, 13 January 2008 (EST) Is it vandalism

Oh yeah, I noticed that a while back. It was fixed in just an hour or so. Toad allstar

Yoshi's story
How Yoshi's story a Mario game? Mario makes no appearance. Princess Grapes Butterfly 20:17, 26 January 2008 (EST)  P.S should we remove it?

Yes, feel free to remove it. Should stay only in Yoshi Games. 21:12, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Super Mario RPG & other VC games
Super Mario RPG, along with Mario Kart 64 and Dr. Mario, and probably more games by now, (see link) have no confirmation. The only "confirmation" is that ESRB has reported that Nintendo has submitted them for rating. However, they might not all appear on VC. For all we know, Nintendo will have technical difficulties with these games, and they'll never show up. And they wouldn't count as cancelled games because Nintendo has not announced them officially. We should wait until they are announced by Nintendo or the official site for Wii and/or VC games.

Red.Tide 22:56, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Then, can you please remove it from the Super mario RPG article? Because on the article, it also says that it will appear in Virtual console See here. 17:11, 28 January 2008 (EST)

SSB
Was Super Smash Bros. released on SNES as well as N64? It doesn't say so in the article.

No... I agree with you, that is weird... 15:41, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Well, it was originally planned to be (along with Super Mario FX and Star Fox 64), utilizing the FX Chip, but all of them got canceled and revived on the N64. HyperToad

Restructuring release dates?
I think it's a good idea to change the way dates are written in the table from their current convention to one that would sort better. For example changing dates from "September 9, 1983" to "1983-10-09" or something similar. This would allow games to be sorted by date effectively using the table, making it easier to follow the Mario timeline on each console.

Any thoughts on this??

--Benchamoneh 15:07, 19 November 2008 (EST)

I could help...
I think I'm some kind of use because I know the release dates for Europe:
 * Mario Power Tennis Wii-release - 6th March
 * Mario Super sluggers - June 2009

A few notes on this page
- 12:43, 15 September 2009 (EDT)
 * 1) I'm unsure what to do with the Nintendo Power segment of the Game Boy Colour. I commeted it out for now. We could make a list of all those games released only in Japan, but we only have one release date for SMB Deluxe, but not for the entire rest.
 * 2) What to do about the e-Reader segment? Keep it as is? Change it?
 * 3) Why are no Wario and Donkey Kong games on the list, but Yoshi games even up to the completely main-series unrelated Yoshi's Story? Not to mention Smash Bros. games. Does this have any consistency?
 * 4) What to do about games that don't have pages anymore, like NBA Street V3 and SSX Tour?
 * 5) What about WiiWare, DSiWare and Virtual Console games? Should they be here or on their own pages?


 * Something is better than nothing, so all the Nintendo Power games should at least be listed.
 * The e-Reader segment should be formatted like the rest of the page, since it looks sorta bad as-is.
 * Since this is a "Games" page and not a "Mario Games" page, it would make the most sense to have all the sub-series titles listed here as well as the core games and Yoshi) - including Super Smash Bros.
 * If the pages were deemed unworthy (for lack of a better word) of separate articles, they're probably not true Mario games and would best be placed in the Video game references page instead of the Games page.
 * Virtual Console games are just re-releases, so leaving the page as-is (with linking to the VC page) seems alright. Games released on WiiWare and DSiWare, however, should be listed, since those platforms are as valid as the consoles and handhelds themselves.
 * Or at least, that's what I think - hope it helps! - 17:50, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

So should Nintendo Power games also be formatted the same way as the rest? (I agree on everything else) - 18:06, 15 September 2009 (EDT)


 * All Mario Nintendo Power releases are worth listing. There is a site called NinDB that has all release dates for the Nintendo-published Game Boy and Super Famicom titles. It is as private website, but the webmaster told that he found the dates at Nintendo Japan's now defunct Nintendo Power website, and I trust him. He knows his stuff.
 * Should be formatted like the rest. For the release dates, NinDB is helpful again.
 * I think all games should be covered there, including Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario, and crossover games.
 * Actually, SSX on Tour still has a (very short) page. I think both this one and NBA Street V3 deserve articles, since Mario, Luigi and Peach are full-fledged characters and even playable, but only with general descriptions of the games and what Mario references are in. No articles on unrelated sportspeople, places and so on (except for special places like Nintendo Village).
 * Agree with Walkazo.

--Grandy02 05:27, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

What I wonder is what all the Game & Watch games are doing here (see DSiWare). How are they Mario-related? Ndb looks helpful, I'll have a look at what holes I can fill. It won't help us getting Australian release dates though, which are currently the biggest hole on this page.

Also what should be do about the "other" section? Arcade & Virtual Boy are fine, but do we need consoles like Intellivision have the same table style? - 08:13, 16 September 2009 (EDT)
 * I brought up the Game & Watch issue here, I agree that they shouldn't be handled like "true" Mario games, except for those that belong to the series, but as mini-games. The only reason for articles on Helmet, Ball, Fire and so on is the inclusion in the Game & Watch Gallery series. On the Wario Land EU release date, the Finnish Nintendo website also has several EU release dates for 80s and 90s games, including Game Boy titles. It says April (like NinDB), so I think this month is appropriate. Hm, Australian release dates are indeed hard to find. I checked Nintendo.com.au in the Internet Archive, but found almost no dates for games released prior to 2002. That they replace the dates of released games with "Out Now" isn't helpful, either. Maybe it has simply been not documented for the public. We could at least write "Released" if an Australian release is known, for example if an Australian box is available at MobyGames (example).


 * Another question, which also affects other pages, is there a reason that the US are always the first column? The only understandable reason would be that most visitors are from this region, but in this way, Europe had to be the second column, since there are more users from there than Japan. In my opinion, Japan should be first, since most games are released first there and because it is also the country of origin of most Mario games. --Grandy02 12:56, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

You DO know how much work it would be to rearrange the columns now that everything has been filled in? If you want to have a different order, it'd be best if you went ahead yourself. I don't think that the huge amount of work that would be needed to change it way exceeds the benefit we would get from that.

I agree on putting "released" in the Australian column. - 07:07, 17 September 2009 (EDT)
 * Okay, I know, just a suggestion. It is true that it doesn't change much with regard to the effort. Well, maybe some day. Anyway, should the "Released" for Australian releases also be put into the infoboxes in the actual articles? --Grandy02 07:48, 17 September 2009 (EDT)

Alleyway?
I didn't see Alleyway on this list. Shouldn't it be here? I mean, it is a Mario game, isn't it?. Originally, Mario wasn't in the game. To familiarize the game with Northern Americans, the box-art was changed so that Mario was on the cover. In the game itself, there isn't much mention to him. Still, I suppose this still counts as a Mario game, so I will now make a link for Alleyway.
 * I think it should have its article. -- 18:44, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Pinball?
Should Pinball (video game) have an article? I know it has hardly anything to do w/ Mario but at least hes in the bonus stage along w/ pauline.---Its-a-me Yoshi! 01:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh wait never mind I just found it.Its-a-me Yoshi!

3DS
Add 3DS section in handhels.
 * It was added.

How come we have to have separate articles
I have noticed that Donkey Kong and Wario have separate articles for their list of games but how come Yoshi games, a few Donkey Kong games, a few Wario games etc., get to stay on the list shouldn't all games just go on one big list and not be seprereted into another article.

Release Dates
The release dates are difficult to understand for example I sometimes mistake the month for a date etc. (2010 / 12 / 31 equals 2010 = year / 12 = month / 31= day), couldn't it be changed for example (2010 / 31 / 12) year, day, and month or, 12 / 31 / 2010) month, day, and year that would make it a lot easier to understand. User:Jjrapper100

Cancelled?
Do we have any proof that New Super Mario Bros. Mii is cancelled? I know that it is a tech demo, but is there an official source that proves that the game is cancelled? 12:13, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

There's no source but it's a Tech Demo and Tech Demos rarely get turned into a commercial game. User:Jjrapper100

Nope there's still no word about Super Mario Bros. Mii being cancelled. It's probably comming out a few months after the Wii U. User:NintendoLuigiGuy

Can someone please remove the "Games highlighted in yellow are upcoming?" part
It's obvious. I can't remove it or else my browser will reduce the article to 32kb. Thanks. WikiofSmash&quot;It&#39;s called society, ever heard of it?&quot; 17:28, 2 August 2011 (EDT)
 * Nevermind. WikiofSmash&quot;It&#39;s called society, ever heard of it?&quot; 17:29, 2 August 2011 (EDT)

Discuss
NO MERGE 3-8

I wanted to know if we could merge all Mario, Donkey Kong, and Wario games into one article and make a separate article for Mario, for example called List of Mario games and still keep List of Donkey Kong games and List of Wario games the reason for this is because the name of the article is Games shouldn't that mean all games go here and not just Mario games. If not just rename the article List of Mario games.

Proposer: Deadline: September 9, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per Proposal.
 * 2) - As what I assume, this proposal is about copying every game on this page (mostly Mario games only) to, and combining every single video game article, including the Donkey Kong and Wario games that have their separate page for games. Not a bad idea, in my opinion.
 * 3) Since all of the Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario games are essentially Mario series games, it would make sense to put them all on the same page. We could still make headings to split the different sub-serieses, but, for the most part, all the games should be listed in one article. Per Arend. @Opposers: Read Walkazo's comment. We are not merging all of the game articles, just duplicating their information and listing them on one page. Therefore, some of your arguments are invalid.

Oppose

 * 1) No merge!
 * 2) Now I understand what you want to do, but you said that you wanted to merge the games, and not the lists of games. But here's the thing; if you want to merge all the games into one article, why do you want to keep the Mario games separate? Heck, technically, all of these games are Mario games, so really, making a separate "List or Mario games" will do nothing.
 * 3) Crazy talk is crazy.  Per all.
 * 4) Even were this not convoluted and difficult to really comprehend, any way I can figure it to make sense still violates every ounce of common sense I have. It seems to contradict itself, and therefore I cannot support.
 * 5) Why stop there? Why don't we merge all the characters into one page? The places. The items! The Species! THE Allies! THE ENEMIES! THE SPECIAL MOVES!!! Let's just throw everything into one article! My bottom line is, we need detail (extensive, that is) on every game. If we went around throwing similar stuff into one article, we'd look lazy and not willing to actually do research. I end my speech the same way most users do, PER ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL! Thank you for your time, try the veal, don't forget to tip your waitresses.
 * 6) I really think that the Donkey Kong series and the Wario series need full articles. Per all.
 * 7) No way.  I've said 1,000 times, a Wario game or a Donkey Kong game is just as much a Mario game(or should I say Mario series game) as SM64.  No merging!!
 * 8) - I don't really get what this proposal is trying to accomplish.  The Donkey Kong and Wario games may be part of the Marioverse, but they should stay separate in their own lists.

Comments
I have no clue what in the world you want to do. All I understand is that you want to merge all the Mario, DK, and Wario articles into one article. Which would be insanely stupid.
 * I think we should make a article having all Mario, DK, and Wario games into one and make a seprete one for Mario called List of Mario games.
 * Please use proper grammar and spelling. It would make it so easier to understand what you're saying. And sign your comments. --Reversinator 12:20, 26 August 2011 (EDT)
 * Sorry about that I was in a rush anyway I fixed it.

Let me get this straight: the proposer basically wants to move this article to and use this page to combine all or the series games into one big collective list?-- 19:08, 26 August 2011 (EDT)
 * From what I can decipher, yes. --Reversinator 19:21, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

So you want to move all of the game articles (including this one) into one collective article? That's just crazy talk.
 * No, he means what Knife said. Nothing is being merged or lost, just duplicated: this content is being copied to another page, while content from the other "List of Games" pages is being copied and added here. Right now, this page only lists Mario (and Yoshi) games, while the Donkey Kong and Wario games have their own separate list pages (List of Donkey Kong games and List of Wario games, respectively). What Jjrapper100 wants to do is make the Mario games also have their own separate List of Mario games, whereas this page will have Mario, Donkey Kong and Wario (and Yoshi, and supposedly everything that doesn't fit into one of these series too, like SSB, hopefully), all in one spot. This isn't actually a bad or crazy idea: there's no reason for the Mario games to hog centre stage while the other series are sidelined; our coverage policy gives them equal standing, after all. Really, the only real issue with the proposal, aside from the unclear wording, is that it doesn't include Yoshi or directly address the other few non-central-Mario-games that are here (like SSB, SSX On Tour, Nintendo Puzzle Collection (a crossover compilation). Captain Rainbow (another crossover), and a few random Wario titles) so there will still be inconsistency. - 18:03, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
 * I still think it's crazy.

Why didn't you remove this guys, wouldn't this be a joke proposal?
 * The nicer assumption is that it's just really badly written, making everyone think it's proposing something ridiculous, whereas it's just talking about a few list pages, which isn't a joke. Of course, if it is trying to merge everything and it somehow passes, I'm sure the other admins will all agree that it would be in the wiki's best interests if we veto the proposal and leave all the articles intact. Until then, it's being voted down anyway, and unless the proposer comes back and confirms it's just the list pages, I'm sure most folks will continue to vote oppose. - 22:38, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
 * Now I see the non-joke part of the proposal.

So the proposer tried to improve the proposal, but they're not allowed to actually change the proposal text so it was reverted. This was the updated version (new stuff in bold): I wanted to know if we could duplicate all Mario, Donkey Kong, and Wario games into one article and make a separate article for Mario, for example called List of Mario games and still keep List of Donkey Kong games and List of Wario games seprete the reason for this is because the name of the article is Games shouldn't that mean all games go here and not just Mario games. If not just rename the article List of Mario games. This way we have a List of Mario games, List of Donkey Kong games, List of Wario games and Games were I want to merge all games there and we'll have four seprete acticles. Too bad it doesn't actually clarify anything... - 21:45, 1 September 2011 (EDT)

Donkey Kong Racing?
Should there be proof there was a cancelled game? I do not see it on the page. User:JWad
 * It's on List of Donkey Kong games, Jjrapper100

Nintendo 3DS Remake of Super Mario Sunshine
Haven't you heard of the Nintendo 3DS remake of Super Mario Sunshine?

Is there evidence that the Nintendo 3DS remake of Super Mario Sunshine is announced?

Discuss#2
OPPOSE 4-5

I wanted to know if we could duplicate all Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi games onto the article called "Games" which already exist then make a separate article for Mario, for example called "List of Mario games" as well as one for Yoshi called "List of Yoshi games" and still keep the acticles List of Donkey Kong games and List of Wario games separated from "List of Mario games" and "List of Yoshi games", and "Games". The reason why I want to do this is because the name of the article is "Games" shouldn't that mean that all games here on MarioWiki go there and not just MARIO GAMES and YOSHI GAMES. If the proposal pases then there will be five seperete game articles one by the name of, "Games" which like I said already exist, the second one will have to be created and named by, "List of Mario games", a third will also have to be created and named by, List of Yoshi games, and a fourth one by, List of Donkey Kong games, and a fifth one by "List of Wario games". So if the propasal passes what I want to do is duplicate all games from the articles "List of Mario games", List of Donkey Kong games, and List of Wario games and still keep their original articles but all their games will be duplicated onto the article "Games" which already exist however we will have to make one for "List of Mario games" and another for "List of Yoshi games". If this proposal passes the "Games" article will include all Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi games respectively, but it wouldn't delete Mario's, Donkey Kong's, Wario's, and Yoshi's games list articles just duplicate their game information onto the article "Games".

Proposer: Deadline: June 28, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per Proposal.
 * 2) - Per what I said in the comments of the last proposal and this proposal. "Games" implies all games, not just Mario (and Yoshi) games; the current setup, with only Wario and Donkey Kong getting kicked out onto their own segregated lists, is inconsistent. The arguments against the change make little sense. Yes, this page would become longer, but not "ridiculously" long (things like Mario (series) are far more unwieldy), and it certainly doesn't mean that no one will read it: having big list of all the games can be quite useful sometimes. Besides, the new, separate, Mario and Yoshi lists would each be smaller than this page, so if someone only wants to see the hundred-plus Mario games without the couple dozen DK and Wario games cluttering it all up, they could still do that (and vice-versa, since the Wario and DK pages will remain as they are, only now they'll be joined by a Yoshi page too). Also, all the pages use the exact same template: all that would need to be done because of this is copying and pasting and fixing some numbers - it won't cause issues with the templates at all, so I have no clue where that argument's coming from either. There are a lot of things that make the wiki look bad; this change will not be one of them.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per Walkazo.

Oppose

 * 1) This is unnecessary. If we duplicate all of the articles into one article it will make the pages ridiculously long and will also cause some issues with the templates. After all, it is a list of games.
 * 2) Causes clutter, redundant, template problems, and makes pages ridiculously long(Who would read such a thing?). Also, anyone who goes to the article has all the lists neatly at the top of the page.
 * 3) Per SKmarioman.
 * 4) - Per Vommack.
 * 5) - No, no and no. The list would be ridicously long,there would be problems with the templetes and we already have the lists neat and seperated. Plus it made the wiki look bad.

Comments
Remember to put at the top of your proposal if you make one on a talk page. GreenDisaster 09:05, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
 * It was already done. Jjrapper100 11:40, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

This should be calling for a new "List of Yoshi games" page to be created too - that way all the four main series get their own pages, rather than everything else being listed twice while the Yoshi games are only in "Games" (or jammed into the Mario list). That would make things completely fair and consistent. - 09:50, 14 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Great idea this is what I call a clever idea I'll be adding this into the proposal thank you very much Walkazo. Jjrapper100 11:40, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Just to clarify for the sake of anyone who might misunderstand, this is proposing that we convert this page, Games, into a complete list of Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi games. In its current state, this page only has Mario and Yoshi, whereas the other two series have their own separate pages: List of Donkey Kong games and List of Wario games. These two pages will not be deleted as a result of the master list's creation - quite the opposite, actually, since we will add to their number by creating a List of Mario games page and a List of Yoshi games page, essentially recreating this current page under a different name ("List of Mario games"), while at the same time getting rid of the inconsistency that sees Yoshi merged with Mario while DK and Wario are separate. This results in a total of five pages, one for each series, and one central list of all the series mixed together (and including any games that don't fit into one of the four series, like the crossover SSB series or Captain Rainbow). That way, both people looking through the games by series and those looking through all the games as a whole will have lists catering to their needs. - 14:37, 23 June 2012 (EDT)

Hacked games sold for money ?
I think that the idea written on the top of this page is a good one. We should create a subsection of this page or a new page listing the unofficial, unlicensed, hacked Mario games. Of course, they are non-canon so we shouldn't talk about them in others articles. 13:06, 10 November 2012 (EST)
 * Short list :


 * Super Boy I (MSX/Sega SG-1000)
 * Super Boy II (Master System)
 * Super Boy III (MSX)
 * Super Boy 4 (Master System)
 * Super Boy IV (Master system)
 * Somari (Famicom/Nes)
 * (Game Boy Color)
 * Super Mario World NES (NES)
 * Super Mario World/Super Mario Bros. (?) (Sega Genesis)
 * Super Bio Man 4 (MSX)
 * Dr. Hello (MSX)
 * Super Mario Bros. 2 (Megadrive)
 * Super Mario World (Megadrive)
 * Super Mario World 64 (Megadrive/Genesis)
 * Kart Fighter (Famicom/Nes)
 * Super Mario World (Famicom)
 * World Heroes 2 (Famicom)
 * Dian Shi Ma Li (Famicom)
 * JY-120 (A) 1998 Super 45-in-1 Multicart (Famicom)
 * Super Mario & Sonik 2 (NES/Famicom)
 * Super Donkey Kong (Famicom)
 * Super Donkey Kong 2 (NES/Famicom)
 * Super Donkey Kong '99 (Megadrive/Genesis)
 * Super Mario 4 (Game Boy)
 * 260-in-1 Multicart (NES)
 * 1998 Super HIK 4-in-1 (Famicom)
 * 100 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 83 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 225 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 1997 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 9999 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 9999999 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 10000000 in 1 (NES/Famicom ?)
 * 1000 in 1 Multicart (NES/Famicom)

I also must check these ones... For some of those I don't know if they are only roms or actual games sold for money.
 * There was a proposal about this a while ago, and it failed hardcore. --Glowsquid (talk) 14:29, 10 November 2012 (EST)
 * Ok, so I think I have no chance. But this proposal wanted to create pages, add informations in other pages about those games, and I agree that it is a bad idea. I talk about a subsection, or a small article. After all, we have all kind of references pages and they are absolutely not Nintendo-related (except for Video games reference, but they are not all Nintendo-related). 15:07, 10 November 2012 (EST)
 * At the Super Mario Wiki, we only post official licensed stuff I'm afiad. NSY


 * Coverage


 * 05:58, 11 November 2012 (EST)


 * I understand, that's perfectly legitimate, but explain me the difference between an article/a subsection talking about unlicensed games, and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 references pages. If Mario appears in the Simpsons, it is non-canon, not Nintendo-related and unofficial. But we still have 9 pages who talk about it. 06:03, 11 November 2012 (EST)

Mario references in popular culture are covered, not home-brews.

02:13, 16 November 2012 (EST)

The N/A meaning
This should be used only for games that really never were released in a specific region, not for every game where the official release date couldn't be found, especially for AU releases. It's better to have "???? / ?? / ??", or if some details are known, something like "2002 / ?? / ??" can be used, instead of "N/A" which signifies that the game was never released at all.

3DS table
I moved Donkey Country Returns 3D lower down in the table, but accidently messed up some colouring, could someone make it right?