Talk:Big Bertha

in New Super Mario Bros., ther are giant cheep-cheeps that may be same. I move that check this and confirm, or deny, this fact. HK-47 14:00, 14 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Yeah... Big Bertha is a large Cheep-Cheep. --DarkInsanity (talk)

Alright, lemme change that! HK-47 14:09, 14 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Okay. Big Bertha is not in the New Super Mario Bros. However there are five large Cheep-Cheep fish enemies:

1. Cheep-Chomp: a large blue fish that tries to eat Mario whole (like Boss Bass). 2. Mega Cheep-Cheep: a giant orange Cheep-Cheep, 3. Mega Deep-Cheep: a giant Cheep-Cheep that chases Mario. 4. Spike Bass: a spiky blowfish that jumps out of the water to attack Mario. 5. Cheepskipper: a large purple boss Cheep-Cheep that can jump on land.

Hope this helps! --Son of Suns 15:30, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

Okay, sorry for seeming like a hard-headed..... something-or-other.... HK-47 15:45, 14 June 2006 (EDT)


 * No. It's cool. :) --Son of Suns 15:54, 14 June 2006 (EDT)
 * I think the fissh from Super Mario 64 is a Big Bertha. Am I correct? [[Image:Parayoshiicon.jpg|20px]] Para Yoshi Wahoo![[Image:Parayoshiicon.jpg|20px]] 21:45, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Nope, that was a Boss Bass.

Actually, Knife, that fish was Bubba. -- Son of Suns

Dang! Which brings me on another subject. What specie is Bubba? Wasn't he that fish in Banshee Boardwalk?


 * Bubba is the species, and if it doesn't say so in the article that should be changed (it is a very old article). The fish at Banshee Boardwalk is simply a giant Cheep-Cheep. -- Son of Suns

Image
Isn't that Frog Luigi in the first pic?( Toadbert101 || Give a yell |Sez:) 23:20, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

Yes, and it has been changed. (I am going around trying to help answer un-answered questions to help the Wiki Mainenance) --Mariofan4eva 12:00, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Level 9-2 has a very large Cheep-Cheep inside a pipe, and it's not colored like the Cheep-Chomps, it's regular color and follows the players. Could it be a Big Bertha (or Boss Bass, whichever you want to call it-- I think most people call the big fish Big Bertha)? UrsulaBoi 22:20, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Yes, it does resemble a Big Bertha or Boss Bass, but with no official source, it could just be a larger Cheep-Cheep or a different-colored Cheep-Chomp. --Mariofan4eva 12:01, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

Characters who have kissed Mario
Shouldn't this article be under that category? Big Bertha does kiss Mario in Love Flounders.

SM64DS
Is it a Big Bertha or Boss Bass in Super Mario 64 DS?

SM64DS is one of my favorite games, but it does not yet have an official guide. I have gone to many official sources, but none state if the giant fish is either a Boss Bass or a Big Bertha. The official guide for the original SM64 states that that fish is a Big Bertha, but with the graphic differences and changes in SM64DS, Nintendo could have changed it. In my opinion, until an official source is stated, we should call it a Big Bertha because the original SM64's fish was a Big Bertha.

How in SMB3?
In the article, there's something that says she may passively eat Mario or Luigi. I tested it out, and, it never happened. How come? Just wondering. Thanks, in advance. --SMWFan 21:21, 19 February 2012 (EST).

Combination with Boss Bass
I have noiced that the boss bass and this article "big bertha" list the same enemy on both pages. I am just coming out and suggesting that someone who is a lot better that me at editing wiki combines these pages because "Boss Bass" and "big Bertha" are essentially the same thing.

Appearance in Super Mario 64 (DS)
Looking at the above sections, apparently "Bubba" was actually called Big Bertha in the official Super Mario 64 guide? Can someone confirm this? This may explain why the Super Mario 64 DS "replacement" is considered Big Bertha rather than Boss Bass. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:23, 25 January 2015 (EST)

Merge Big Bertha with Boss Bass and/or Merge Baby Cheep with Big Bertha
There have been attempts to merge Big Bertha with Boss Bass given their identical appearance and Japanese names, but I thought this necessitated another look. It shows the fish trying to eat Mario, so it must be a Boss Bass - but it shows a Baby Cheep with it, so it must be a Big Bertha. What this hybrid shows is that the lines were blurred even back then (the art appears to have even been made by Nintendo Power). Additionally, in Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (which again just has one entry for the giant Cheep Cheep and only briefly mentions that there is an underwater version), there is no name for Baby Cheep. Since Baby Cheep is inextricably tied to Big Bertha and is more like a short-range projectile than its own enemy, it doesn't make sense for them to remain as separate articles. The Nintendo Comics System's Bertha might be split as a character article if one of the Boss Bass options passes.

Proposer: Deadline: December 2, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Merge Both with Boss Bass

 * 1) These are all closely related, and as the red Cheep Cheep was versatile in Super Mario Bros. 3, it makes sense for their big counterpart to be somewhat similar.

Merge Big Bertha with Boss Bass

 * 1) Symbiosis or no, I think it'd be silly to merge the infant form with the giant form, with the regular Cheep Cheep still being separate. Besides, it has its own vague personality in Nintendo Comics System, and there are other enemies who only appear when linked with a specific other enemy, like Baby Blooper. But yes, Big Bertha and Boss Bass seem to just be versatility-based variations of each other.
 * 2) Due to how similar the two enemies are and the reasons stated in the proposal, keeping Big Bertha and Boss Bass split does not make much sense, and thus should be merged. However, Baby Cheeps should still remain split, as per Doc von Schmeltwick.
 * 3) Per Doc von Schmeltwick, I'm going with this option as my secondary choice.
 * 4) Per proposal. They seem like the male and female versions of the same species.
 * 5) This is much like the Koopa Troopa thing without the color difference, and both have Japanese name. + Baby Cheeps are unnamed in Japanese sure, but are the babies of the Big Bertha.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Big Bertha and Boss Bass were considered to be the same enemy in the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4 and they continue being considered the same enemy in  recent sources. As for the small fishes, they are mentioned in the guidebook, I'll post both description in the comments.
 * 11) Per all.

Leave Split

 * 1) Let me invalidate some arguments here: 1.tHeY aRe sO sImiLaR: Yes, they actually look exactly the same. It's not like there are any other enemies who are the same, but in a group and are split | or are the same, but they have a different behavior | or have the same japanese name | or are just a bigger or smaller version | or only differ in stats. 2. ThE aRtWoRk ShOwS A BoSs bAsS WiTh A bAbY cHeEp: That means it's not accurate as they are in the game and that someone made a mistake, but why should the drawer even care about this in the first place and why are we even taking artworks as an argument for something like that? 3. bIg bErThA AnD bOsS BaSs sEEm tO jUsT bE vErSaTiLItY-bAsEd VaRiAtIoNs Of eAcH oThEr: Great, that speaks for either both the split and merge option or for none of them. Pick one. I just wanted to say that we shouldn't merge everything that has the same japanese name or looks the same. As I've shown with all these links, this is not something that HAS TO BE merged. The japanese name is not everything a species has and we have to take something like a completely different behavior into consideration for decisions of merging and splitting articles.

Comments
Shouldn't there be an option to do nothing? It's not like the recent Meta Ridley situation where keeping all pages split would be against previous proposals. -- 19:35, 18 November 2018 (EST)
 * Just fixed that a minute before you brought it up since I almost forgot to include it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:38, 18 November 2018 (EST)

This doesn't affect the proposal at all, but I'll point out that all the red Cheep's versatility-based variations involve jumping; the "swim back-and-forth" ones were green. Just a little tidbit there. Anyways, more importantly, when this is over, will it be immediately possible to propose to merge Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp, or will that need to wait 4 more weeks? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2018 (EST)

Additionally, regarding the "Boss Bass: Male::Big Bertha: Female" thing, only Big Bertha's (outdated if all merges succeed) English name really seems to indicate this; in fact, if Wikipedia's article is any indication, most fish to do so are male. As for the comic, a single character does not have bearing on a whole species anyways. Basically, behavior seems to solely be a location thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2018 (EST)
 * Nintendo Power's descriptions do support the male and female distinction, but they also invented the names to begin with (and have the artwork that contradicts themselves and supports the Japanese interpretation). As for the broader Boss Bass / Cheep Chomp idea, I would honestly be satisfied if the wiki stopped at Boss Bass / Big Bertha and Bubba / Cheep Chomp for now, but you can go ahead and make the proposal afterwards if you want. As I said before, I can definitely see similarities to what happened with Grinder/Ukiki and Himan/Mega Bros. (Sledge Bro). I don't believe you have to wait four weeks since these have technically been separate proposals, but that's my way of looking at it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:25, 20 November 2018 (EST)
 * Ukikis are related to Grinders, ressemble them, and what i think off, they replaced them. Sure the internal filename does call them "osarusan", but even the Japanese name is Ukiki. -- 06:51, 20 November 2018 (EST)
 * We merged them way before the Yoshi's New Island filename was known, but newer games clearly use Ukiki's name with Grinder's design ever since at least Mario Party 7 (I think Mario Superstar Baseball even uses the N64-based design and Mario Super Sluggers updated it to the current version), not to mention that was originally done in Super Mario 64 DS and they serve the exact same interchangeable role in the Yoshi games. What's most likely the case is that either Ukiki was supposed to be its own enemy but got composited into Grinder later on, or Ukiki and Grinder were always intended to be the same thing but were hindered by the graphical limitations of Super Mario 64 at the time (compare the early 3D incarnations of Thwomp, Swoop, Cheep Cheep, etc.). The earlier spinoffs like the Mario Party games based several designs on the N64 models for a while, which suggests the latter. Initially, we planned to keep them separate and rename Grinder to "Ukiki (Yoshi series)", but that proved too messy to sort out. Also, the Japanese title of Ukiki Jammin' calls them by their classic name despite the [[Media:Yoshi New Island Shogakukan P18.jpg|Shogakukan guide]] for Yoshi's New Island calling them by their modern name, so there's that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:21, 20 November 2018 (EST)
 * And you see, that "composited" thing may be what happened with Bakubaku. We don't know if the original was intended to be Kyodai Pukupuku with a name that wasn't a misnomer, but because of 64 DS and YIDS, it's pretty clear that they are they same thing at this point, at least retroactively. YIDS especially, given the behavior. As for the "smoothness" to their fins, that's how Cheep Cheep's SMB3 sprites looked too, (I work with SMB3 sprites as a hobby) and they were trying to base them off of that, and as Spiny Cheep Cheep's artwork (which was in the manual) for the same game shows, other Cheeps had similar fins in artwork as well. So basically, it's art evolution based on how the regular Cheeps appear in the specific game. The only similar Cheeps I don't think should be merged are the MP1 eating Cheep Cheeps, the "Blurps" of Yoshi's Story (though they're similar enough I'm waiting for evidence to eventually show up), and the pink Cheep Cheeps from Sunshine (which was formerly grouped with "Bubba" on here anyway). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:48, 20 November 2018 (EST)
 * I was going to propose it first, but Mario jc said that even that when they have the same Japanese name, the behavioral differences are enough to have them separate. Well no, it's just like the Koopa Troopa thing. -- 00:28, 21 November 2018 (EST)
 * Please note that he ended up undoing his own edits. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:44, 21 November 2018 (EST)
 * Well, actually, this doesn't proof that they are separate. -- 08:47, 23 November 2018 (EST)

@VOIDTHIS: 1) It's more than they have the same Japanese name, since they also consistently share the same exact profile in Japanese sources. As an example, I have a Japanese Yoshi's Story guide by Takarajimasha, and even it lists enemy entries for Propeller Shy Guy and Fly Guy on page 10 separately despite sharing the identical name Propeller Heihō. Also, whenever subjects we split happen to share the same name, they generally tend to not be from the same game or product. 2) The official "Boss Bertha" artwork is a valid reason to revisit this topic that hasn't been mentioned previous times. 3) A lot of people are picking one, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:07, 23 November 2018 (EST)
 * 1) Wait... Yoshi's Story guide? It would have been a good point if Big Bertha and Boss Bass had the same profile in that guide, but they don't even exist in that game. You can hardly compare a Yoshi's Story guide with japanese sources. 2) I agree with you, it was not a bad idea to bring up that artwork. And why did you even write this? You brought that up, I invalidated it and now you say it was a valid reason? You act as if I said that you should have never written that. Only because I want to refute that argument does't automatically mean that it was a dumb one. 3) Doc used this argument to argue for the merging option, even though it can also count as an argument for the splitting option or for none of them. The Pick one was just there to let her choose if that would count for both or for none of them. It was also a joke, because it wouldn't have changed anything, because it would either be 1:1 or 0:0 which are both a draw. 17:27, 23 November 2018 (CET)
 * 1) I think it's a good comparison because it's an example of a Japanese source treating a similar subject with the same name as a separate one, whereas that never happened with Boss Bass and Big Bertha. Here is the most recent description from Super Mario Pia and Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. for 巨大プクプク (Giant Cheep Cheep): 「水面を移動し、ジャンプして襲 いかかってくる. 水中にいることもある. 」 (Moving along the water surface, it jumps to attack. It also exists underwater.) It considers Boss Bass and Big Bertha to be one and the same, behavior difference or not. Also, we had early trouble getting their appearances sorted out until it was eventually decided that Boss Bass is the maneater and Big Bertha is the mouthbreeder, but since the official Japanese distinction is that there are surface and underwater types, that puts the odd appearance of the underwater maneater into question unless you want to consider that yet another fish. 2) Generally speaking, it is discouraged to redo a settled proposal unless you can present new information, which is exactly what I did by illustrating a point with the artwork. That's also why I added the Baby Cheep option. 3) That doesn't really apply to Baby Cheep if that's what you're suggesting. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:50, 23 November 2018 (EST)
 * That also means that they are the same thing. -- 02:16, 25 November 2018 (EST)

Here are the two descriptions from the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4: 巨大プクプク マリオに追 いついて、巨大 な口 で飲 みこむ. 飲 みこまれるとミスになってしまう.

プクプク(子) 巨大 プクプクの口 の中 から飛 び出 す子 プクプク. 体 は小 さいがダメージを<span class=explain title="う">受 ける.

These two definitely show that Kyodai Pukupuku is both Boss Bass (description of Kyodai Pukupuku) and Big Bertha (description of the Child Pukupuku), and give a name as well as a small description to those small Cheep Cheeps that jump out of Big Bertha's mouth.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2018 (EST)
 * You mean that Super Mario Pia lists Cheep Chomp (Bakubaku) and Big Bertha and Boss Bass (Kyodai Pukupuku) in separate entries? -- 04:54, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * Actually, you misunderstood what I wrote in my comment above. The Super Mario Pia is a book published during the Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary, while the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4 is the official Japanese guide of Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3, written soon after the release of said game. In this guide, Kyodai Pukupuku is explicitly stated to be both the fish who tries to eat Mario and the mouth-brooding fish. The little Cheep Cheeps that live in the mouth of Kyodai Pukupuku are given a name and a description, as well. The Super Mario Pia, on the other hand,, starting with Super Mario 64 and omitting Super Mario Bros. 3. Since Super Mario Bros. 3 is listed as a game they appeared in, I think it's better not to assume that the book says anything about Boss Bass and Big Bertha.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:48, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * I was actually asking if Kyodai Pukupuku had a separate entry from Bakubaku in Super Mario Pia. -- 10:11, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * As I said above, the Super Mario Pia only has the entry of Bakubaku, stated to be introduced in Super Mario 64, Kyodai Pukupuku is not in the book.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * Additionally, the book omits several instances of Spiny Cheep Cheep appearing from its section due to unusual behavior, so it's not an end-all source. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:15, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * I never said it was, I didn't even bring it up, as I actually posted the descriptions of the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Advance 4. I'd like the discussion to focus on this new piece of information instead.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:57, 26 November 2018 (EST)
 * While i agree the artworks don't represent exactly what's in-game, the description, appearance, and exact Japanese name make Big Bertha and Boss Bass the same thing. I also mentioned above where it's a similar case to Koopa Troopas but without the color difference. -- 01:50, 28 November 2018 (EST)
 * This page will be turned into a redirect, and the link on the Boss Bass page will be changed into a bold text. For the pages Big Bertha appear in like SMB3, will you make, as for making two separate entries, or you will merge entries by saying   "Boss Bass appear underwater and chase Mario in attempt to eat him. Big Bertha are found underwater, and spit out Baby Cheeps"? -- 10:53, 28 November 2018 (EST)
 * We report the English names used back then in the relevant pages, so we'll just use  links. If we cite the guides of the time and use links, we'll do the same.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:53, 28 November 2018 (EST)
 * There were attempts to merge them, but they opposed due to the behavior. I don't even know why they voted oppose because of the behavioral difference. It's more like Koopas. I wonder why were these two articles split in the first place. -- 00:50, 30 November 2018 (EST)
 * Because policies have gone all over the place over time, and additionally, it wasn't always known that the Japanese names were the same. Additionally, it was considered more important to go with some sort of "English name canon" back then instead of initial creator's intent. Though I suppose that factors into my first point. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:16, 30 November 2018 (EST)