MarioWiki:Proposals

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Merge Mario Kart Tour Kart and Glider variants or Split Character variants: The Threequel
Oh boy, he's at it again

I understand I’ve brought this up many times before, be it through discussions or past proposals, and regardless of which solution has been agreed on thus far, I still feel this situation could be handled better. Thus I feel it necessary to revisit the whole ordeal with Mario Kart Tour’s karts and gliders. The way we cover the characters, karts and gliders is still glaringly inconsistent and it feels it gets more inconsistent the more I think about it; character alternates, kart alternates and glider alternates all share the same differences; different favorite and favored courses, differnet visual appearances and different special items/skills/item bonuses. However the characters do not get their own articles (for reasonable reasons), but the karts and gliders, despite being palette swaps, just as Yoshis or Shy Guys are, can have their own articles, creating that inconsistency between not only the character alternates as a whole, but how we naturally treat other palette swaps. And I feel we need to fix that. I’ve brought this topic up at least twice in previous proposals, with the only passable outcome being to create list articles on character variants (something I have still failed to follow through with). But with the arguments against splitting Yoshi colors, I can’t help but be bothered by how the arguments there contradict with how we handle these karts and gliders. One the main arguments being that splitting the Yoshi colors seems excessive. I still don’t understand how extra articles for different colored Yoshis is excessive, but extra articles for different colored Yoshi karts is not excessive. And while splitting Yoshi colors extends to other species, merging karts and gliders does not extend to nearly as many similar problems, with the only real one being the Mario Kart: Double Dash!! karts and several Mario Kart 8 wheel sets. Those, as well as other arguments, are here with my attempts at answering them:


 * The Karts and Gliders have different statistics: A point I feel is completely null at this point. As I’ve mentioned, character alternates feature the same differences and they are deemed too excessive to split. On top of that, again drawing parallels to the Yoshi debate, the colored species such as Yoshi, Shy Guy and Birdo have the same Tour differences, with Yoshis having even more beyond that across many other games and that’s still not enough to consider their own articles. Heck Shy Guy has variants that are a mix of coloured variants and themed variants (Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) for example, being an alternate of Pink Guy Guy while also being a variant of Shy Guy (Ninja), if that makes any sense). As such, “different stats” is either not enough to warrant a split or there needs to be a general agreement on how different said stats need to be. Until then, karts and gliders having different statistics feels like a nullified point.
 * They look different/have different names: Sure, the Magic Parasol has a different texture than the Peach Parasol, but if having gameplay function isn’t enough, then I fail to see how having a visual difference means anything. The Magic Parasol still looks identical to the Peach Parasol, just with a different visual appearance, just as Santa Mario still looks identical to Mario, just with a different visual appearance (or outfit appearance I should say). It wouldn’t be hard to list variants of karts and gliders in the same way we list variants for characters. Heck, we can list variants off in the same way we list the Mii Racing suits: a table with an image, tour debut and special skill/item bonus. As for naming, it WOULD be a viable argument if several karts didn’t follow the same naming convention as the colored alternates; Blue Biddybuggy, Green Cheep Charger or Gold Clanky Kart are literally the same concept as Blue Yoshi, Green Shy Guy etc. And that’s not even covering the fact that there are gold characters as well as gold karts and gliders. Even ignoring those names, a lot of karts are just “Insert descriptive word” “Insert original Kart name” (Grand Badwagon, Sunny Surf Sailer etc). Compare that to real life; do we consider cars completely different if they’re different colors? I’m pretty sure a blue Nissan Micra and a red Nissan Micra are still Nissan Micras. The naming of karts is generally no different than character alternates.
 * Some of the kart variants have different sizes: Again, gameplay differences of a bigger scale don’t cut it, I can’t see how this would.
 * It’s harder to pinpoint the original kart/glider: Originally, yes, it was and that was a very good point to make. But as of now, both file names and ID numbers can and have proven to be reliable ways to work around this, as we have done with the Butterfly Wings and the Dragonfly/Dozer Dasher idea. Some karts, like the Speeder (Jetsetter), which doesn’t really have a set variant name (as the first variant was just named Green Speeder) don’t really need a kart with the base name, as it kinda already exists from before. The Kiddie Karts are in a similar boat, with neither names indicating which the original variant is, but the file ID seems to point towards the Red Kiddie Kart being the original variant. Which debuts first doesn’t seem to make a difference.
 * Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Kart 8 also feature palette swapped karts/parts: Indeed they do and they should definitely be under the microscope too. However Mario Kart Double Dash’s palette swapped karts are of fewer numbers when compared to how many variants of karts are in Tour, though in all fairness, these aren’t creating an inconsistency in the same way Tour does. If we do end up merging karts and gliders, THEN it’s something to discuss and I am definitely not against discussing that and I’d fully support the idea of merging kart part variants in Mario Kart 8 (the wheels specifically, as they feature no stat differences and are only palette swaps), but right now, I would like to focus on Tour’s problem and bring up that possibility later. I will say, however, that at the moment, I’d like to leave the Gold Standard, Gold Tires and Gold Glider off the list of things to merge, as they have had consistent appearances across several games, though if the idea of merging them too comes up, I’d gladly discuss that.
 * What about other similar topics: Honestly, this proposal isn’t meant to cover and consider every instance where this happens, it’s meant to concern Mario Kart Tour. If this passes and other areas become inconsistent, we can discuss those instances separately.

All that being said, I think the options are simple. While I do feel there’s a general agreement on how we cover character alternates, for the sake of keeping all options on the table, I will still include the idea of creating articles for character alternates.


 * Split character variants into their own articles: Character alternates like Mario (Santa), Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Dry Bones (Gold) will get their own articles, just as kart and glider variants do. As per comments below, this, for the time being, will exclude colored alternates like Blue Yoshi, Pink Shy Guy, etc and focus more on the established characters like Mario, Daisy, Wario etc. Alternates like Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Toad (Party Time) are still viable to be split, as they are directly based on the characters themselves, while something like Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) will be worked into a Shy Guy (Ninja) article.
 * Merge Kart and Glider variants to their parent articles: Kart and Glider alternates, such as the Blue Badwagon or the Shell Parachute, will be merged with the kart/glider they spawned off of, with the variants being listed off in a similar manner to how character alternates are listed off on character pages or how Mii Racing Suits are listed. A separate gallery section can be added to each page to showcase variants. In terms of which are the parent topics, we can easily use file names or IDs to determine this, though many of these variants are pretty easy to spot.
 * Do nothing: We decide to leave everything as is.

I have made a complete list of each kart and glider and the variants they have on my work page. If there is anything I missed or anything to question, let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: March 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Split Character Variants

 * 1)  I agree that we need to treat these things consistently, but I think we need to go the other direction. Aside from the arcade games and Live, which Nintendo does not seem to consider part of the main series, there's little precedent for character "variants" outside of that set by Tour itself. There's just the different colors of Yoshi and Shy Guy for Download Play stuff up until 8, which has... well, still Yoshi and Shy Guy colors, but also the different Villager genders. 8 Deluxe introduces Gold Mario and BotW Link, but also splits the Villagers and Inklings. That's all of two costumes that actually stayed costumes instead of getting their own spot on the character select. And one of them's unlockable and the other one's a post-launch update, so neither of them are exactly "normal". It falls to Tour, then, to set the precedent for how the series treats "costumes"... and it treats them all as their own characters. And why shouldn't it? The other games have stuff like Dry Bowser and Tanooki Mario and Pink Gold Peach, and they've all been listed as separate characters despite being exactly as different as your average Tour variant. This is unlike palette swaps, which have a much stronger precedent of not having their own space on the character select. To summarize: the handheld games set a precedent for color variants not being separate, so they should stay merged. In the entire rest of the main series, in and outside of Tour, non-color variants are treated like separate characters, and therefore they should be split.
 * 2)  No, I don't think this is the right call.
 * 3) Per this.
 * 4) You know what, sure. I've said before that the Tour variants are basically just that series' version of power-ups, so why not? We can keep all the information on each variant in its own dedicated place, and it's an easy way to document the history (if any) of that variant beforehand.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) While I'm still a bit more on the idea of merging karts and gliders, as to be consistent with all character alternates, I'm still open to the idea of splitting character variants too.

Merge Kart and Glider Variants

 * 1) I still support this idea. It's easier and more consistent with how we handle the character variants and other palette swapped characters.
 * 2) Per proposal, and I just can't imagine pages for the character variants being anything but a mess. Seeing as they're currently adequately covered in one or two sentences on the main characters' pages, I'm having a hard time imagining full articles being made for these variant characters (especially the Tour-original outfits), and to my knowledge it's not consistent with any other game we cover.
 * 3) I would much rather prefer this over the splitting option, as all these character costume things are just that; costumes that characters wear. They did not make a different character that looks and acts like Mario but with a different outfit, they simply made Mario change his clothing. Replace "Mario" with any other MKT character, and it works out the same way. We don't split the costumes from SMO, or the endless combinations of enemy stacks you can make in SMM, or all the ghost outfits in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, etc. Plus, the parameters the split option entails ("include other appearances of this costume it is based on on the page with the MKT instance of the costume") would inadvertently lead to us splitting off the Luigi's Mansion instances of King Boo from the regular King Boo page, something that nobody but a few IPs have advocated for in the past as they are otherwise treated as the same thing.
 * 4) Per proposal; also, as Hewer and Somethingone said, splitting off all character variants would make quite a mess, and is something we don't really do for any other variant outside of Tour. I cannot really imagine why anyone would rather split every character variant (even with the passed proposal of just making them list articles being a fine enough option as it is) just to not deal with the merger of many karts and gliders, and the difficulty of determining which kart/glider is a variant of which.

Do Nothing

 * 1) Secondary choice. I'd rather not do anything at all than split off all character variants. As explained above, it would just be a clunky mess that would be inconsistent with how we deal with variants in any other game.
 * 2) Per Arend, second choice.
 * 3) Well, in stark contrast to y'all two, I'm putting my second choice here because I feel that merging the karts and gliders would be a mistake. I can live with merged characters (easily, since some very good points have been raised about awkward situations that would come up) but I just think merging things that, unlike characters, have never been shown as anything but separate options with the same importance as the original, isn't the way to go.
 * 4) Second option as well, because I reeeeally do not want the other option to pass.

Comments
Would articles on separate character variants detail any prior history of that variant? Like, would Mario (Chef) have separate sections on the outfit's appearances in Yoshi's Cookie and Super Mario Odyssey? 08:54, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * Honestly, for those cases, I wouldn't say so. Mario dressing as a chef in Yoshi's Cookie is merely for the theme of the game and Super Mario Odyssey, it's just a costume with no gameplay features. Neither appearance treats the outfit as anything special; Mario's still Mario, just dressed as a chef. It can easily be mentioned that the outfit is based upon said appearance, but otherwise, it would only cover Tour as that's the game it has an actual functional difference from normal Mario (different special item, different favorite/favored courses, different availability across the game's history). I am aware that if we do split variants, it could cause further inconsistencies, such at the commonly mentioned palette swaps or even the power-up variants. But I wanted the option to be there for people who believed it was a better course of action and if it passes, we can work out inconsistencies from there.
 * I'd say yes, though it would be fairly brief. Taking inspiration from another part of Tour, the national landmarks: appearing in Tour is not enough for a landmark to get its own page, but for any landmark that does because of an appearance in (for example) Mario is Missing!, its article has a section its appearance in Tour. I think these variant articles could do something similar. Ahemtoday (talk) 16:25, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * I'd also support including those other appearances. If we have an article on a subject, all of its appearances should be included, even if individual ones aren't necessarily article worthy. Omitting them is just going to be confusing. (It's worth noting that this is the approach we took with Builder Mario. We didn't make an article on it until it became an actual power-up in SMM2, but its earlier appearances where it's just a visual difference are included.) -- 17:32, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * I have no conflict over splitting the character variants at all, but my only concern rests in the fact that this will affect the colored alternates like Yoshi, Toad, Shy Guy and Birdo and I'm aware there has been a common disagreement on that stance. As previously, I do still support this, but I know others may not. In the case of the Yoshi species especially, that would basically mean they get their articles back, since most of them are playable in Mario Kart Tour with the same qualifications as any other variant.
 * Well, like I said in my vote, they differ from other variants in that they have a lot more precedent as "variants" within the series, which otherwise (in the same games, even) treats likes of Metal Mario and Cat Peach not as "variants". Given that, I think it's defensible to keep the color variants merged while splitting the other variants. Ahemtoday (talk) 19:43, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * That's kinda the thing, Yoshi, Toad and Shy Guy have the "Color name" "Species name" deal going while Birdo has the same naming convention as the rest of the variants, suggesting the colored Birdos are variants in the same way that Mario (Santa) is to Mario. On top of that, Shy Guy has two variants that split off into colored variants as well; Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) is named as if it's a variant of both Pink Shy Guy and Shy Guy (Ninja). And while there isn't a Shy Guy (Explorer) yet, there is a Light-Blue and Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer), so if we were to just bypass the colored alternates, what would we do about those examples? Do we just relegate every version of Shy Guy to the Shy Guy article or do they get treated the same as every other alternate? And do we treat Birdo differently because they are named the same way as the other variants being split?
 * I think it's pretty clear what's a color variant and what's not, regardless of in-game terminology. Birdo colors are colors of Birdo. Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) is a color of Shy Guy (Ninja) and could get covered there. A "Shy Guy (Explorer)" could cover both Light Blue and Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)s. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:39, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * I will say, though; I understand the desire to also split the colors into their own article, and that also seems like a fair way to do it. If my option and a complete split were separate options on this proposal, I'd vote for both. (And honestly, as I sit here typing, it's growing on me.) But splitting the colors has consequences that extend far beyond Mario Kart Tour, so I think it might need its own dedicated proposal. (That said, a split may also have far-reaching consequences on how we handle powerups, so maybe I'm being a bit hypocritical here.) Ahemtoday (talk) 20:39, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * I agree; working with colored variants is beyond the scope of this proposal. And while I was thinking of making a separate option, I think it's best, for the time being, to focus on the established characters. The colored Yoshis can stay with the Yoshi (Species) article while things like Yoshi (Reindeer), Yoshi (Kangaroo) etc can be split. But I still think that it's really worth considering colored characters like Yoshi especially. I know a recent proposal failed to split them, but I myself will always stand by them being enough to have their own articles, as they have had consistent appearances across the whole franchise that have gameplay differences. For now, I think I'll specify that splitting character alternates will exclude colored alternates. I'm pretty sure that should be fine, as it's less than 3 days since I started this.
 * Edit What are the thoughts on the Mii Racing Suits? Should those just remain with the Mii article or are they worthy enough for a split?
 * The Mii Racing Suits strike me as much more similar to costumes than colors. Even the basic colors would seem quite odd to me lumped together on the Mii article if the others were split. Having an article for "Brown Mii Racing Suit" also feels odd, though... Not sure how to handle that. Ahemtoday (talk) 05:09, March 7, 2023 (EST)

@Spectrogram Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your vote. You say you don't think this is the right call, but you're voting for splitting the character variants. Are you merely saying that merging karts and gliders isn't the right call or is there a typo/miswording in there?
 * Pretty much Spectrogram (talk) 10:17, March 6, 2023 (EST)
 * Okay, just clearing that up.

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