MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Allow the coverage of distinctly Mario aspects from guest appearances
According to Coverage, Nintendo Land is "not a crossover" and is therefore a guest appearance; since the game constitutes a guest appearance, it should only receive one page and the minigame pages (Donkey Kong's Crash Course, Luigi's Ghost Mansion, Mario Chase, and Yoshi's Fruit Cart) should be deleted, per the rules on MarioWiki:Coverage. However, why not change the rules? Instead of having these pages exist in a grey area, why not change things so that they, and any other subjects from guest appearances that are clearly baked in Mario iconography, can have articles? To be clear, this is not a proposal to give articles to every subject from a guest appearance: LeBron James and Psymon would still not have articles, but, for example, Nintendo Village might be eligible. These are subjects that use the Mario IP with Nintendo's express approval, if not because Nintendo themselves created them, and they're arguably more related to the franchise than some of the stuff that the wiki already covers. I don't see why we shouldn't allow them here.

Proposer: Deadline: January 4, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I'm with you on this one. Sounds like a good idea to cover Mario-only elements of any non-Mario game. And plus, why even bring up LeBron James in the first place? Come on now, I don't want an article on that, because then we might have people yelling out constantly about how the stupid Warriors blew a 3-1 lead. Jesus, man, can we just not do that?
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) The summary above sounds convincing. Per all.
 * 5) Policy needs an overhaul for these cases, and this is a step in the right direction.
 * 6) Per all, it leaves a gap in our coverage otherwise.
 * 7) - I honestly thought this was a crossover already. Per proposal.
 * 8) Per proposal.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all. Yeah, I don't think LeBron James or Mooshroom need an article, though I think subjects such as Tetris DS Puzzle Mode are deserving of one.
 * 12) Per all.

The format of the statistics in the main pages of Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
While the statistics shown in the menus of Mario Kart games have been notoriously inaccurate and sometimes even outright wrong, since Mario Kart 7 the vehicle customization screen finally shows statistics in a way that at least is directly correlated with the underlying in-game statistics: internally the games use points that are summed to determine the final values of the statistics, with each character or part contributing their own points to each statistics, and in the vehicle customization screen every time there is an increase of 1 point in a statistics, the corresponding value shown by the bar increases by 0.25. This direct correspondence between the length of the bar and the underlying sum of points in each statistics led to the main pages of Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe exclusively reporting the statistics in the format used by the games' vehicle customization screens. It must be noted that said format is actually used by the games to display the final statistics of a certain combination of character, vehicle, tires and glider, while in the main pages it is being used to display the statistics of the individual elements (characters and vehicle parts). This mismatch first of all leads to different criteria used for the characters (the final statistics obtained when using said characters with standard parts) and the parts (how the tatistics of each part compare with respect to standard parts), furthermore when discussing a redesign of the tables of statistics thanks to an automated script with, other aspects emerged: Therefore, since the current format has both advantages and disadvantages and the games actually use an alternative format, the points, which is still simple and thus could be used in the main pages I propose to review and decide which format to use for the statistics shown in the main pages of Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, between those two: In short, those are what I think are the main advantages of each format:
 * the differences between various parts and how much characters and parts contribute to the final stats are potentially more difficult to evaluate, since fractional number that, in the case of the parts, can be both negative and positive are being used to display the stats in place of integers
 * standard parts can have values which are not average in some statistics, leading to the numbers being skewed as a result, this being the case of Standard Tires in Mario Kart 8 which have maximum water speed
 * comparison between games can be more difficult, as the statistics of the standard parts are different in each game - as an example, the Standard Kart has different stats in each game, but the current format doesn't show this
 * more importantly, the current format can be misleading when trying to make considerations in the individual parts' pages, such as the ones on the Standard Kart that didn't reflect the actual statistics of the kart nor the actual contribution of the characters to the final statistics in Mario Kart 7.
 * 1) values actually used by the game (called points)
 * 2) values shown in the vehicle customization screen (what I'll call bar values)

MAIN ADVANTAGES OF POINTS
 * They are the values actually used by the game and, as such, they are not misleading
 * They allow for an easy comparison between characters and parts and between games using the points system, while allowing to easily see how much a character or part contributes to the final stats

MAIN ADVANTAGES OF BAR VALUES
 * They are the ones shown in the vehicle customization screen and, as such, they are the ones most readers are familiar with and the ones mainly used by the competitive Mario Kart community as well
 * They tend to be useful for statistics which are tiered on the integer part of bar values, in particular acceleration in Mario Kart 8 and weight in Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe

As a final note, a revision of the pages of the individual parts will have to be done regardless of the outcome of this proposal, to add the actual statistics of the parts and to see if there are other considerations which need to be corrected in light of the actual statistics of each part.

Proposer: Deadline: January 2, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Use points

 * 1) - While bars are more familiar to players, points show the statistics more accurately, which I think is what should be used.
 * 2) the idea that most readers are already familiar with bar values is not really correct. most readers are familiar with the in-game system of bar values, which they might assume is identical with the wiki's system. but that is not a correct assumption, and cannot be. the in-game system is used to rate a combination of a character and three vehicle parts, while the wiki's system is used to rate each character or part individually. the mapping between the two is based on some fairly arbitrary decisions that readers can easily gloss over without understanding their implications for interpretation of the reported values. the upshot is that although the bar value format feels familiar to readers, because it resembles the in-game system, this feeling is inaccurate and misleads readers into believing that they understand the system when they actually do not. we have already seen the result of this: the claim linked above that the standard kart "doesn't offer any stat changes due to the main stats relying more on the weight class of the character and is shared for all characters" is completely wrong, and this is a direct result of an editor attempting to reason about the bar values system while having misunderstood it. this is a weakness that the point system lacks: because it does not falsely seem to be immediately familiar, users are less likely to incorrectly assume that they understand it when they do not, and more likely to read adjacent explanations of how to properly interpret the data as it is presented regardless of which system the page uses, it will need to include some such text to explain the system to uninformed readers, and readers who opt to ignore this text are likely to come to inaccurate conclusions regarding part statistics. since readers must read and understand this text to correctly use either system, it makes sense to use whichever of the two systems is most helpful to those who do understand it. this is clearly the point system, which allows users to easily understand how each individual part affects the overall stats of a build, cross reference the stats of a part with the translation tables here, and compare parts between mario kart 8 and mario kart 8 deluxe to see how their stats have changed. none of these tasks can easily be done with the bar values system. meanwhile, the main presumed advantage of the bar values system is that it's likely to feel familiar to readers. but as i've shown, this feeling does not mean that most readers actually understand it, and may actually be harmful to their ability to learn to use it
 * 3) Accuracy should take priority over familiarity. Readers would be better off with a foreign yet accurate display of information than a familiar yet flawed display, and it would be better to take the time to learn how to read it than simply go with what they already know, especially if the latter is inaccurate. Using the bar system would defeat the purpose of us being a wiki -- a reputable source of information -- due to said system having inaccurate data. Per 2257.
 * 4) Point values are better because they accurately measure the statistics of a certain part. It's also advisable that the maximum value should be present as well, so that the bar charts are truly obsolete. Per 2257.
 * 5) - Per 2257.
 * 6) Per 2257.
 * 7) Per 2257.
 * 8) per 2257
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all, especially 2257.

Use bar values

 * 1) You know, if readers are familiar with the bar values, and if the competitive Mario Kart community uses them, then I'm going with bar values. Anyway, that is some of the most detailed in-depth stuff I've read yet on this wiki. I'm gonna have to take a look at it again to make things a little clearer for me.
 * 2) Per Lcross.  The games use bars, and bars are easier for players to understand, so we use bars.

Comments
Why not both, like how we have for the Mario Kart Wii vehicles like Standard Kart M (but done better)? 17:55, 26 December 2017 (EST)
 * Dingo-DONGO. I like that idea. The problem is, how are we going to implement thatt? 18:07, 26 December 2017 (EST)
 * I personally tried that, and I was asked to just report one set of stats. We can of course include two sets of tables, but that would be additional vertical scrolling. In short, unless you can come up with a new layout that manages to do that more clearly, this simply isn't going to happen again.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:33, 26 December 2017 (EST)
 * If only one set of stats is what's been asked, then we may as well just use one for now. 19:30, 26 December 2017 (EST)

Does Tetris DS count as a guest appearance?
Once upon a time, a proposal deemed that Tetris DS was irrelevant to the Super Mario Wiki, and should therefore be deleted... except that was four years ago, and the article still remains. Now it just sits in limbo or something, and that's not satisfying to me. To me, Tetris DS is about on par with Nintendo Land in terms of Mario content. From the six games, half of them prominently feature Mario characters and integrate them into the gameplay, especially with the Standard game's multiplayer items and the Yoshi's Cookie Puzzle game. If you say that the Mario aspect only affects the visuals and not the gameplay, and therefore shouldn't be covered here, then I'll ask why Nintendo Badge Arcade and Minecraft are covered at all, or even why Nintendo Land is covered when its line-up includes a game of tag and moving a cart around. Also, that clearly ignores the multiplayer items. Simply put, this game has more than enough Mario-related content to justify its coverage on the wiki.

Proposer: Deadline: January 4, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Yes, it is a guest appearance (and therefore, keep the page)

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I guess I will support this one, but holy smoke, are you a proposal machine or what? You keep belching these out like factory goods on the conveyor belt every day.
 * 3) Should be a no-brainer, per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) - Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Per proposal, to me Mario content in Tetris DS is no different from Mario content in Smash Bros.
 * 8) Per all.

No, it is not a guest appearance (and therefore, delete the page)

 * 1) The games mentioned besides Tetris DS are governed by a very black and white policy. I have also wanted to stir up discussion to no avail. I don't think the game is the issue. It's how we cover crossovers, which isn't satisfactory, because we end up covering non-Mario things. It's a very hard call due to the current complexity of the Mario universe intertwined with other video game universes.
 * 2) Per Wildgoosespeeder.

Comments
@Wildgoose: What are you talking about? What's so black-and-white about the policy that it completely annuls Tetris DS from having an article? 00:30, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Watching playthroughs of Tetris DS, NES games are used as a background theme as you play Tetris, which Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 3, Donkey Kong, and Yoshi's Cookie for some examples. This sounds like a guest appearance to me. -- 00:46, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Yes. That is the point of the proposal. 00:47, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * But wanting to allow it anyways (at this time 3-1 vote to keep) means the policy is very black and white about this, but not just with Tetris DS. Policy needs to be reworked for these instances. NES Remix, Tetris & Dr. Mario, and others all have issues with policy. Not just Tetris DS. -- 00:56, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * I think I knew where I confused myself. I want Tetris DS to be considered a cameo. I just looked at Densetsu no Starfy 3 and that makes a little more sense to cover levels where Wario makes a physical appearance. In Tetris DS, you don't interact with the themes, but in Densetsu no Starfy 3, Wario interacts with Starfy. -- 01:08, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * And what about the multiplayer items? 10:40, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * List of Mario references in Nintendo video games
 * Just some examples found in List of Mario references in Nintendo video games. There's likely many more. Does that mean these games deserve their own article? -- 11:38, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * How are they relevant to my point? 11:43, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * I read the section about multiplayer items, and there is a level of interaction with the Tetris universe. My point was we have many games that don't have articles and there are physical appearances of Mario universe people or things in them that has influence in those universes. This supports my other point that policy is very black and white, leaving people to grasp at straws to cover either by separate article or merge contents in list articles. -- 11:50, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * You still haven't explained how the policy is black-and-white in the first place. And frankly, what if I say that those games should have articles? What then? 11:55, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * It's either full coverage (mainstream or crossover) or some coverage (guest appearance or cameo). I don't think this is satisfactory for crossover or guest appearance. Instead of two "modes" of coverage, we need four. Also, you have another proposal going addressing issues with this policy as well, so I think you understand somewhat of what I mean that I think policy is very black and white. -- 12:05, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Seriously, what are you talking about? 12:23, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Can you elaborate what's not clear to you? -- 12:41, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Go basic here: what do you mean by "black-and-white"? 12:48, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * No grey area. The games in question don't fit the full coverage or partial coverage policy completely. -- 13:40, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * How so? 13:57, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * We've had multiple discussions before, like with the creation of Minecraft that I can immediately recall. -- 14:57, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * And yet Minecraft is being covered on the wiki. What are you talking about? 15:29, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Yes, it was covered. I wasn't trying to outright stop its coverage. However, the current way it is being covered just doesn't feel right compared to other games. The point is just because it features Mario characters or references it doesn't mean it is a Mario game. If that were true, the List of Mario references in Nintendo video games shouldn't exist and should be split into separate articles. -- 15:38, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * The point isn't that it's a Mario game. The point is that it has content that is relevant to the wiki. 15:56, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Not arguing that it has relevance. I am arguing the presentation just isn't quite right. -- 16:00, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * What would be right for you, then? 16:02, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * A merge to the references list or a general guest appearance article. Since guest appearance, link to the appropriate NIWA wiki article, or Wikipedia article if the game is not a Nintendo property. In the case of Tetris DS, it's a reference and not a guest appearance, although policy isn't definitive on that. -- 16:17, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Why shouldn't we give them individual articles? 17:01, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * It feels like we are giving these games the same precedence as regular normal releases. -- 17:15, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * One page and dedicated coverage of clearly Mario aspects, versus every single subject within the game getting an article. They are not the same. 17:34, 28 December 2017 (EST)

Shouldn’t this be a TPP? - 17:57, 28 December 2017 (EST)
 * Hypothetically, if Tetris DS didn't already have a page, then the proposal would have definitely gone here. I think this kind of stuff is better suited for here, anyways, as it sets a visible precedent for what future games may or may not be considered as guest appearances. Besides, my other guest appearance proposals have all been here. 18:08, 28 December 2017 (EST)