Talk:Big Cheep Cheep

First appearance
Apparently it appeared in Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure, which was released before New Super Mario Bros. Seeing as this is the Mario wiki shouldn't it's first appearance in the Mario canon be its first appearance, or should it be its Zelda appearance?
 * just put both. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:17, 22 April 2013 (EDT)
 * Just did some browsing and there is nothing on it
 * Except on the Cheep-Cheep from the zelda wiki it mentions giant cheep-cheeps that appear in Four Swords Adventures.
 * But was it confirmed as a Mega Cheep-Cheep, for all we know, it's just a bog standard larger version and not a Mega one

Iterations
So, as we know, Boss Bass/Big Bertha is called "Kyodai Pukupuku" (Giant Cheep Cheep) in Japanese, corresponding to "Kyodai" versions for Goombas, Troopas, and Piranha Plants that are around today and not particularly changed, using the identifier "Deka" (big). In English, these all formerly had very creative names, but now settle on a stock "Big" title. Deka Pukupuku, however, is physically quite different from Kyodai Pukupuku, with the old design instead going to Bakubaku. While it would seem odd that Boss Bass and Big Cheep are the same, a new factor was given to us recently: the related Porcupuffer, normally not the voracious sort, eats Mario like a Boss Bass or Cheep Chomp in Super Mario Maker 2. The point I believe this gives us is attributes of behavior are relative and subject to change per developers' whim. Boss Bass was always intended as a large version of the jumping Cheeps from SMB3 with the added detail of being able to eat Mario, while Big Bertha was a large version of the Cheeps that lazily swim back and forth, with the added detail of brooding Baby Cheeps. Heck, the Baby Cheeps themselves are proof that these are just giant Cheep Cheeps, as why would they brood a baby of a different species? The smooth fins are also just enlarged from Cheep Cheeps' own non-detailed sprite for that game, which I have worked on many, many times. As more proof, the filename for the NES Remix 2 stamp of Boss Bass is "PukupukuBig," being alongside "NokonokoBig" for Big Koopa Troopa. This means that Boss Bass is still considered the "big Cheep Cheep." Now, between Kyodai Pukupuku and Deka Pukupuku, there was also the "Ōkina Pukupuku" (as called by Message Block) in Yoshi's Story, which also means "Big Cheep Cheep." This I also believe to be an early iteration of Big Cheep Cheep; it's literally an enlarged version of the Cheep Cheep render model for the game, and the red ones act like Boss Bass, with a few minor differences to account for gameplay. This type of large Cheep Cheep also cameos in Mario Gold and Super Circuit, before the current iteration appears in Four Swords Adventures and New Super Mario Bros, where they are just an enlarged version of those games' non-carnivorous Cheeps. So what happened to the eating? It was given to the Bakubaku, which in turn would made more similar to the original Big Cheep Cheep, the Boss Bass. Bakubaku was never Kyodai Pukupuku; they were the same size as Pukupuku in SM64, after all. Basically, what I'm getting to is this: both Boss Bass and Story Blurp are the same as Big Cheep Cheep and should be merged, ending this "fish" debacle once and for all. If Big Goombas can start reproducing by fission, Big Cheep Cheeps can get ahold of their appetites. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, September 1, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm not too sure. I'm opposed to merge any of these, but i have no arguments. -- 07:54, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As for the Boss Bass, i didn't pay attention, but i'm opposed to it anyways. See Kyodai Hanachan and Deka Hanachan. -- 08:17, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * With those, they are a distinctly different size anyways, and they aren't one of the things from SMB3, and there's that unused data thing with them. All the Kyodai of SMB3 are merged with the Deka of today.....except this. As for why you have no arguments, it's because there's no logical reason for them to stay split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Just because internal filename is "big" does not mean insta-merge. Nintendo tend to use filenames like this. (but other enemies are an incomparable situation). Blurp came out with two colors named differently, yet still lumped together, unlike Boss Bass and Big Cheep Cheep. And no, it's not because there's no logical reason to keep them split that i have no arguments, it's that i do want to counter your arguments, yet mines won't be valid with all what you said. It'll avoid speculation, unlike merging. -- 08:14, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * There is, however, logical progression with the enemy evolution - Boss Bass / Big Bertha is treated as the giant counterpart of Cheep Cheep in the original game, whose trademark behavior went to the large Cheep Cheep with a color variation (in Yoshi's Story design), which lost the behavior but stayed as a big Cheep Cheep in newer games (in traditional design). Yoshi's Story is effectively the missing link here, where they changed it to be a scaled-up Cheep Cheep but still had Boss Bass behavior. As for the internal filename being "big" not meaning insta-merge, in normal cases there'd be room for doubt - but that sidesteps the fact that the file was named within the original game's context over 25 years later, and the developers could have simply named it "bakubaku" like just about every other modern instance of Cheep Chomp. Yes, there is an exception with Wiggler due to circumstances (which, by the way, does not have this filename oddity), but on the other hand, look at an article like Mega Block (which shares the same "big" Japanese descriptors as the merged Big Cheep Cheep article would have). Honestly, I wasn't on board with this idea at first, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:32, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Exactly! I've been entertaining this thought for quite some time myself, but didn't want to go through with it without knowing the file name for NES Remix 2 (as pointed out previously, there's no "conceptual" in this case due to being based off a game that's multiple decades old) or actual textual proof that the "Blurps" were meant to be the same as Boss Bass and Big Cheep (which I now have). At this point, I see no reason to keep them split other than to make things "easy" at the cost of being less accurate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:57, September 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hmmm... -- 02:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

Just chiming in to say I'd also be in favor of a merge. 04:04, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Thanks, anyone else who supports or opposes, please chime in too so I can tell how popular this is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:37, September 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think the Yoshi's Story Blurps are Big Cheep Cheeps, as regular ones appeared in that game and had the same design, except obviously smaller, so I support that being merged (Also, I think their appearance in Mario Golf should just be merged with Cheep Cheep). As for Boss Bass, I'm not really all that sure, but I'm thinking no on that one for now, since they do act different and have a different design (distorted pupils, bigger mouth, smaller fins). 16:43, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The fins proportional to the main Cheep Cheep's would take more tiles to animate, which on the NES is a major factor. Note how Big Koopa Troopa had a disproportionately large shell compared to the normal one. As for the big mouths, that's just behavioral, and the Story red ones act basically the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:08, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * So that leaves the distorted pupils, which could be a minor design change... 17:41, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The eyes already had to be scrunched a little to make room for the mouth, and probably to make it clear from the get-go they were dangerous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:58, September 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * The only way i can see a merge working, is if the wording is handled similarly to what we have currently in the Bull's-Eye Bill page. -- 06:29, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Except it's not an inspiration or divergence, it's the same thing with different behavior and a redesign. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think we can do it that way if it's easier to follow, though in regards to the idea of merging one but not the other, I think the case for merging both is stronger because a visible evolution would be seen in the merged article. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

The Yoshi's Story Big Cheep Cheeps have a name, Big Blurp (or just Blurp), so I'd be wary of merging them. Boss Bass can be merged, it's just a Big Cheep Cheep that can eat you. 11:41, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * "Blurp" seems to be just that the translators misread "Pukupuku" as "Bukubuku." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:44, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * That doesn't change the fact that they have a name that isn't Big Cheep Cheep, in-game. I stand by my thoughts on the whole Bull's-Eye Bill fiasco: using a Japanese source before an English one to determine if an enemy is related to another, when the wiki prioritizes English sources, is ridiculous. 11:47, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * It is actually a pretty common mistake even for professional translators to misread Japanese diacritics, which is how Cheep Cheep kept getting confused with Blurp for a while (it's not an issue exclusive to Yoshi's Story). Also, in response to the "ridiculousness" of using Japanese sources on an English wiki - the entire Mario franchise is, predominantly, a Japanese franchise. Yes, there are select games made by western developers, but that's the exception, not the rule. Just as we prioritize English sources from western-made games (the minority), we prioritize Japanese sources from Japanese-made games (the majority). Inconsistent translation is also the reason for most (but not all) name changes, not accounting for previous localizations, and thus strictly adhering to localization would cause needless confusion. Let others be concerned with "Englishness" of their own wikis; that's not how we handle things here. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:42, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also note how Galoombas had, in English, "a name that wasn't [Galoomba] in-game," but that doesn't mean it should be split. Heck, so did Cheep Cheep itself. And that's not even getting into when it is and isn't hyphenated. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:34, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'd be fine with merging them, then. 13:56, September 10, 2019 (EDT)

So we seem to agree on merging Blurp... Although I'm still not sure about Boss Bass. Are there any official sources that describe them as Cheeps, but bigger? 15:22, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * As previously stated, their NES Remix 2 filename is literally "PukupukuBig," which given the nearly 30-year gap means they still consider them the same. They're in the same boat as the other "big" enemies from SMB3, even though they never appeared alongside them in-game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:58, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't think an internal filename should be considered one of our most valid sources... Also, what do you mean as "being in the same boat"? Are they classified as big enemies somewhere? I'm not completely against the merge, but I'd like some more proof if I were to support it... 16:13, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * A filename isn't a great source if it's a wholly-new game, where their vision from the outset may be different from the final product, like this, this, this, this, this, or this, but again, I must iterate: this is taken wholesale from a game that was over 25 years old at that point, meaning their vision for it was pretty well set in stone. Anyways, as proof that they were considered "large Cheep Cheeps" at the time, one is used as Giant Land's representative for the credits of SMB3 (despite not appearing in gameplay there). And again, it's an edited version of a scaled-up sprite for that game, including the smooth fins. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:18, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * Okay, I think a merge would be fine. I also forgot about them being associated with Giant Land in the credits. 16:35, September 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * A wording similar to the Bull's-Eye Bill page could work to more easily follow how big variants of Cheep Cheeps have evolved over time. -- 05:13, September 13, 2019 (EDT)

I also noticed that the Boss Bass's other appearances were merged with Cheep Chomp. Is there a source for them being the same? 14:51, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * The Japanese name is Bakubaku, and they predate it being colored purple. Note that the SM64DS and NSMB ones are literally the same model but recolored. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Is a proposal necessary? There has been a major agreement on merging Boss Bass (and Big Bertha), and the Blurps here. -- 02:03, September 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Given how much of a point of contention it's been in the past, then yes. I'd like to get at least a few more people saying something one way or the other before I do anything, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:15, September 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Now that we have further evidences, i'd agree merging it, and explaining how it has evolved. I'd also wait for more consensus to show up first. -- 10:20, September 17, 2019 (EDT)

Alternatively, Boss Bass is Cheep Chomp and had some twists and turns in transition to its current appearance, while Big Cheep Cheep is a new enemy taking the place as a big variant of Cheep Cheep. Big Blurps could be either, not really sure about which, since they came after Bakubaku but have its man-eating trait, or maybe it's just a big Cheep Cheep variant of Yoshi's Story. SmokedChili (talk) 09:25, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * But again, Nintendo seems to currently consider Boss Bass to be the same as Big Cheep Cheep given the internal name in the NES Remix games. It seems at this point like after SM64DS decided to mix up the two similar creatures (like with the monkeys), they just kept the traits they shared to the SM64 enemy while making Big Cheep Cheep more like a big Cheep Cheep. (This would be so much easier if they'd decided to color Cheep Chomp orange in NSMB instead of purple...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:28, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Or the internal names are like that in respect to the source material they're used for and have no bearing on other iterations, much like how "Bowser's kids the Koopalings" story is still used in SMB3 related stuff like in this 30th anniversary feature from Famitsu. We know they're Bowser's kids there, but we also know that's not the current story, so it has to be specifically SMB3 stuff. So for Boss Bass, it was given the internal name based on its Japanese SMB3 name. But its similarity to Cheep Chomp in behavior and appearance, not to mention the link via Yoshi's Island DS, are more proof than an internal name, which are something only this wiki appears to consider for connecting subjects on a grander scale. SmokedChili (talk) 14:36, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * How about the Yoshi's Story ones? For the record, it's not just "Blurp," it's "Big Blurp." The site used just "Blurp" to fit in with its storybook rhyme. Anyways, they're just "Big Pukupuku" there, act like Boss Bass, but look like big Cheep Cheeps. Additionally, why would they care about following the story at the time in a thing that's not even viewable without external hardware not intended to be used for simply playing the games? Cheep Chomp is less the "current iteration of Boss Bass" and more "the dumpster they put all of Big Cheep Cheep's old annoying traits." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, September 18, 2019 (EDT)
 * Actually, checking through some Japanese YS videos made me notice how spaces are a common feature in the writing of the game. This writing style is important, because it disproves "Ookina Pukupuku" as a name since adjectives are very often separated with spaces, and おおきな プクプク is written just like that. Thus the context of the English message box should be "a big Blurp" instead of "a Big Blurp", and all they have for Japanese names are "Akapuku" and "Aopuku" from the guides. SmokedChili (talk) 10:33, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * If they're so common by the game's standards, why is that disproving? And even if it's not technically a name, the role is still there, and the description is essentially the same as the ones with actual names. That it's described as such and acts like a gameplay-altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:52, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Point is that whenever a Japanese text has so many spaces, it's to make the text easy to read especially for children. But whenever we see names for Mario characters, they are always written together, as is Japanese text in general. Just try look at the Japanese Yoshi's Story character and enemy lists. The fact that none of the names have spaces in them makes おおきな プクプク all the more suspect. As for the role, just because something from game 1 shares the role with something else from game 2 and the former is even based on the latter means nothing if the end product is different. Like Rotten Mushroom, known internally as "Poison Mushroom". So while Akapuku and Aopuku are the big YS Cheep Cheeps, just because they're similar to Boss Bass, the SMB3 big Cheep Cheep, doesn't make the two the same. On the other hand, by your logic, that Bubba/Cheep Chomp is described as such and acts and looks like an altered Boss Bass can't be coincidence. SmokedChili (talk) 12:18, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * OK. Regarding the YIDS one, this was after Baku had been made to look like the SMB3 enemy in 64DS and the "literally just a giant Cheep Cheep" iteration of the "big Cheep counterpart" concept had been established, not to mention Yoshi's Island loaned enemies tend to act off (looking at you, Piranha Plant). Still good points. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:01, September 19, 2019 (EDT)
 * Hmmm... The Rotten Mushroom concept. -- 02:16, September 20, 2019 (EDT)

Further info: in the Game & Watch Gallery 2 iteration of Parachute, a Cheep Cheep that is identified as a simple, generic Cheep Cheep appears with Boss Bass's attack, jumping low out of the water, mouth agape in ordr to eat people. Furthermore, it looks just like the SMW Cheep Cheep when not jumping, but looks like a Boss Bass (complete with angry squint) when jumping, supporting that Boss Bass is just intended as a large Cheep Cheep. Heck, normal Cheep Cheeps jumped with mad squints and open mouths in SMW2 as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:19, October 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * They squint in Yoshi's Island? I didn't see that detail. -- 12:25, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, whenever they jump in a sideways arc with an engine-rotated sprite. See here, right next to the Jean de Fillet. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:17, October 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * As current discussion is going on with certain ideas such as "Rotten Mushroom concept" (which is also the case for Dragoneels), i think that i'm going to think a little bit. -- 02:08, October 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * You don't need to use quotes when you're the only one who's referred to it by that name (which is also strange since it's far from the first or even most notable example....) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:16, October 17, 2019 (EDT)
 * Anyways, a proposal might be necessary at this point. -- 05:12, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

No. You may have a case for merging Blurp with Boss Bass, or maybe Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp, but the two and Big Cheep Cheep are completely different. While Boss Bass and Blurp can eat the player character, Big Cheep Cheep is simply a big Cheep Cheep. Its Japanese name being the same as Boss Bass's doesn't make it the same character. The attributes are completely different. 18:01, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Boss Bass wasn't interested in eating the player while underwater. It was passive underwater, like SMB3 Cheep Cheeps, and aggressive on the surface, again like SMB3 Cheep Cheeps. And besides, since when do normal Cheep Cheeps swell and explode violently? Short answer: they don't. They continue to have unique properties, but they no longer have the "eating" one, because it was given to that now-purple creature that was once based off the SMW Blurp. Following your logic, perhaps we should split Grand Goomba from Big Goomba, since, ahem, "while Big Goomba can split into smaller Goombas, Grand Goomba just gets crushed immediately upon being stomped." Additionally, as I pointed out above, Porcupuffer has now been a quick surface-swimmer, Spike Bass, literally a big Cheep Cheep, and Cheep Chomp. These are very different properties (and even the same differences!) and I don't see you wanting to move them either. I've already addressed this and you argue points I disproved in the opening argument. Sorry if this is coming off as rude, but this just annoys me extraordinarily that you'd just give a blunt "no" followed by arguments I addressed a month ago, something I personally find to be extraordinarily rude. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:54, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Sorry for the bluntness, I didn't intend for that to be rude. I just state what I have in mind. I also didn't read the entire conversation, because it's incredibly large, so I was just going off of the first paragraph, but I may have misunderstood some things.
 * I never encountered a Boss Bass underwater, you might be thinking of Cheep Chomp or Big Bertha. Boss Bass has only been a surface fish so far, while Big Cheep Cheeps cover both fields. Yes, Big Cheep Cheeps have gained additional properties, but one thing I don't recall Big Cheep Cheep doing is eating the player character in any of its appearances. Since Cheep Chomp's introduction, that trait has been only applied to it, effectively replacing or is the same thing as Boss Bass.
 * For Porcupuffer, it's obviously the same character with the same design, it just gained a few new traits over the years. I don't know why you would think I'd want to split that. Probably the same thing with Big Goomba. 20:52, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Big Bertha is underwater Boss Bass. We merged them months ago. Boss Bass is a large counterpart behaviorally to the red Cheeps in SMB3, Big Bertha is for the green Cheeps (despite being red, likely because a green mouth interior would look weird). Anyways, Cheep Chomp, from what I can tell, was intended to be derived from Blurp in development (hence the specs in 64, the fact that its JP name looks more like that of Blurp's, and that the "Cheep Cheeps" in SM64 look more like orange Blurps, probably getting a name change in late development). Regardless, the NES Remix file name is also there for you to consider (PukupukuBig instead of Bakubaku, though it has been noted this might be a time capsule effect). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:00, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * "We merged them months ago." My bad, I didn't notice that. I thought we still had that as a separate article. I apparently took no part in the proposal that merged them, for some reason, and never had a reason to look up Big Bertha since then until now. But that just seems confusing to me, merging four characters into one (Big Cheep Cheep, YS Blurp, Boss Bass, and Big Bertha). Doesn't that just seem like too much? 21:09, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Could say the same about normal Cheep Cheep. Aside from Cheep Cheep/Cheep-Cheep, it's been Goby, Flopsy Fish, Bub, and Bubba, most of which have varying stylizations just like the above four. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:43, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, Big Bertha was most likely intended to replace the passive -agressive Green ones. -- 06:39, October 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't agree with any of this (retroactively disagreeing with the Boss Bass/Big Bertha merge), but a proposal should happen at this point. 21:28, October 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Why don't you? If Boss Bass and Big Bertha shouldn't be merged, neither should the jumping and swimming Cheep Cheeps from SMB3, since they're enlarged versions of those with an extra quirk added to not be boring. They use the exact same sprites, even! Why some people prefer to base all view on the subject off flavorful Nintendo Power text from the 80s that has been long since abandoned in official lore and contradicted the language of origin even back then is beyond baffling to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:48, October 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Same. I am extremely baffled by that. And yes, they should have been merged in the first place ever since we discovered its Japanese name. Not keeping ONE and the same enemy with a different behavior and English name separate. -- 08:29, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Different English name and different behavior usually means split, not merge. I don't see any reason as to why these should be merged. They all have differing behavior and English names, and merging something based on the Japanese name alone is ridiculous. I'm for splitting Big Bertha and Boss Bass. 09:30, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * The only thing that seems to be the same to me is the Japanese name, and in my opinion, they should keep separate pages due to their different English names and behaviors. At this point, as proposal needs to be created to make an actual decision. -- 09:58, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Your arguments are based on speculation. This is a Japanese series. -- 10:02, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Reasons for merging Big Bertha with Boss Bass are already explained in the proposal. The only thing to add is, if Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia was properly localized, it would still list them together. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:07, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * @FOY: While Mario may be a Japanese series, this is an English wiki. Therefore, basing a merge solely on a Japanese name is ridiculous. also it's "subjective", not "speculative" 10:12, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Again, I differ you to Cheep/Flopsy Fish/Bub, all of which have been merged. Boss Bass and Big Bertha are from the same game and, ahem, use the same graphics, and if this is about the Big Cheep and Boss Bass, you said above you'd be fine with merging them, TDS. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:13, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Since no one is checking the proposal for its opening statement, I'd just like to ask TheDarkStar which one - which seems newly drawn for the " English " guide - is supposed to be. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:20, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Well, it looks like a Boss Bass, but the Baby Cheep nearby shows that it's a Big Bertha. (As an aside, I'd be perfectly fine with merging all this into Boss Bass, which has actually tried to devour Mario, unlike Big Cheep Cheeps.) 10:24, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Large-sized normal Cheeps have. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:26, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * The problem with declaring it as Boss Bass or Big Bertha, if split, is that this merged depiction does not cleanly fit into either (" English ") description for them. See what I'm getting at? LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:35, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * I had supported the proposal to merge Boss Bass and Big Bertha due to their similar appearances and certain resources seeming to support that they were the same, but I oppose merging them with Big Cheep Cheep, as I feel the only similarity is the Japanese name. -- 10:32, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * The behavior's been replaced with a less-creative one, but conceptually, they are the same thing (an enlarged Cheep Cheep). Besides, how about how the mistranslated "Blurps" are literally just an enlarged Cheep Cheep that acts like a Boss Bass? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:40, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * As, sorry, TheFlameChomp. I misunderstood your argument, which could have made me confused if i remembered that you participated. -- 11:53, October 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * Previous agreement was more than the disagreement, if you want to know. -- 03:31, October 31, 2019 (EDT)
 * Previous agreement was more than the disagreement, if you want to know. -- 03:31, October 31, 2019 (EDT)

I'll do my best to summarize since this somehow got on the topic of Boss Bass and Big Bertha. Let me just clarify that it's not just Japanese names being the reason they are merged (since having the same name alone is not enough); it is the fact that they are treated as the same thing in numerous profiles, have that blur the lines even in the English localization, and are intended to be larger versions of the game's ordinary Cheep Cheeps (which themselves have behavioral variations). While we can't cite it, I'd even say Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia handled it pretty well in this instance, under Boss Bass on page 50: "It swims along the surface of the water and attacks by jumping. If found underwater, call them Big Berthas." (I'd venture a guess that this may have been the work of the book's less infamous translator.) Also, a correction: Bubba / Cheep Chomp is indeed bigger than Bub / Cheep Cheep in Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS. With that out of the way, to be honest, I can see the arguments for what to do with Boss Boss in relation to Big Cheep Cheep and Cheep Chomp.

The first piece of evidence is that the internal filename for the Boss Bass stamp in NES Remix 2 is content/Heri2/cmn/miiverse/HankoTgaUSEU.zlarc/Hanko_SMB3_PukupukuBig.tga (and it's the same in NES Remix Pack). Piranhacus Giganticus / Big Piranha Plant and Grand Goomba / Big Goomba have similar treatment. However, there could be other reasons for this rather than deliberately connecting with Big Cheep Cheep; for instance, "Big" could just be an oversimplified translation of Kyodai rather than "Giant", which may have also partially been the reason why Giant Land was known as Big Island. It should also be noted that internal naming conventions are all over the place in the NES Remix games and include a mix of old and new names in addition to regional versions, although regarding Super Mario Bros. 3 content specifically, it does use the original Japanese names outside of the big enemies (for example, Ultimate NES Remix uses SMB3_M_ATK_FATBROS_W4.Crsm for Sledge Brother, as opposed to Mega Bros). So it is certainly worth considering, but we shouldn't put too much stock in it by itself.

Secondly, the appearance of big "Blurps" in Yoshi's Story can show that such an evolution took place. These Cheep Cheeps mostly look like larger versions of the game's Cheep Cheeps, but the red one has behavior that is much more reminiscent of Boss Bass. Additionally, a Japanese Message Block header describes it as 「おおきな　プクプク」 (Ōkina Pukupuku, "Large Cheep Cheep"), where the English text describes it as "Big Blurp". It should be noted that, as mentioned by SmokedChili, this is technically not its name, but it does at least indicate its role and function in my opinion.

Third, as Doc explains, the behavior of Cheep Cheeps in general is fluid and not wholly constant. As such, even regular Cheep Cheeps among others have demonstrated biting behavior and other characteristics generally thought to be specific to Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. That said, I believe that the reason for Cheep Chomp's background cameo in Super Mario Maker 2 is a developer's joke of Porcupuffer taking on its usual traits. As an aside, Cheep Chomp's internal name in this game has not been found yet (it could be of interest if there is some remnent of Boss Bass), but it could literally be part of the background and not a separate file.

On the other hand, there have been attempts to merge Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp in the past, but for the sake of brevity and time, I'll just point to the latest proposal. I also want to add that, while it isn't explicitly stated as it isn't entirely comprehensive with listing every single appearance, I do find the [[media:SMP_page_62_excerpt.png|Super Mario Pia description]] of Cheep Chomp as 「巨大なプクプク」 (remarkably similar to the Japanese name of Boss Bass) to be fairly suspicious. Lastly, I would be remiss if I did not mention that Kyodai Hanachan set a certain precedent that not every Kyodai (Giant) subject must be shared with its Dai / Deka (Big) counterpart, despite the terminology being used somewhat interchangeably.

Given the above, I believe a proposal should use multiple options: merge Boss Bass and Blurp (Yoshi's Story) together with Big Cheep Cheep, merge Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp, or simply consider Boss Bass to be a predecessor to both Big Cheep Cheep and Cheep Chomp, with room to decide what to do about the Yoshi's Story Blurps in a follow-up proposal if one of the latter two are chosen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * I'd vote for it being a precedor. -- 11:30, November 3, 2019 (EST)
 * There is the additional issue with Big Cheep Cheep being used as an obstacle in a Yoshi's Story-inspired stage in a Mario & Sonic game, as seen here, which could be a nod to/appearance of "Blurp." At the same time, the same challenge includes an enlarged Bullet Bill that isn't Banzai Bill, so that might not be the best example. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:50, November 4, 2019 (EST)
 * Does that Cheep Cheep try to swallow characters whole? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:07, November 5, 2019 (EST)
 * I don't think so, which is another reason I'm less inclined to believe that one's an intentional callback. A the same time, that might be too "overpowered" for that role. As an additional note, I'm curious over he Japanese script for the hints in the Abandon Ship and Cheep Cheep Chase minigames, as the behavior (especially in the former) is a dead ringer for the "aggressive" type of Boss Bass. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:49, November 5, 2019 (EST)
 * Clarification on Super Mario Pia: The line about Cheep Chomp is in its entirety 「巨大なプクプクの仲間」, which would be "a giant Cheep Cheep member". The Japanese SMB3 manual uses the same wording 仲間達 nakama-tachi for Piranha Plant and Hammer Bro. variants, with 達 used for pluralization. The same scan also has Piranha Plant's bio which names Big Piranha Plant and Prickly Piranha Plant, and the former is called 「巨大なでかパックンフラワー」. SmokedChili (talk) 09:31, November 5, 2019 (EST)
 * I see. There's also the concept of Sledge Bro not being just a big Hammer Bro, but it's not comparable with Boss Bass. -- 10:29, November 12, 2019 (EST)
 * How much options will the proposal need? -- 04:16, November 24, 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not quite sure. I'm considering putting it on the Blurp page as it seems that's the least likely to be controversial. They would be 1: Merge to both Big Cheep Cheep and Boss Bass, 2: Merge only to Boss Bass, 3: Merge only to Big Cheep Cheep, 4: Merge Boss Bass and Big Cheep Cheep and leave Blurp unmerged, and 5: Do nothing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:35, November 24, 2019 (EST)
 * Seems good to me. -- 11:26, December 31, 2019 (EST)
 * Anyways, this discussion hasn't been on since November, hence why i'm opening it. Also, it's unsettled. -- 08:42, January 2, 2020 (EST)
 * OK, well having played SMM2 now and making a whole level themed after Porcupuffer, I'm once again assured this is the right path. If Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp were the same thing, they'd have used it for the enemy instead, since on the surface it acts like Boss Bass and below it acts like Cheep Chomp. Why give some other enemy both behaviors if they were both the behaviors of one enemy to begin with? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:13, January 2, 2020 (EST)
 * I don't know. -- 08:21, January 3, 2020 (EST)
 * Something that still puzzles me is the Bessie Bass situation. A basic fact about the Yoshi's Island series bosses is that, generally speaking, they are larger versions of regular enemies. Big enemies that already exist, like Big Boo and Hefty Goonie, become even larger, meaning that it's not the regular variant in those cases that transform into bigger versions. Since Big Cheep Cheep doesn't appear in these games (having only appeared in a platformer months prior), and Boss Bass is meant to be the equivalent of a big/giant Cheep Cheep, it makes sense that Bessie Bass represents both Cheep Cheep and Boss Bass - except that the game's Boss Bass is supposed to be Cheep Chomp. What if Boss Bass was not a misnomer, but rather the localization's way of directly interpreting Cheep-Chomp as Boss Bass, deciding to simply translate it by the then-more popular name? Granted, things could have changed by then and maybe they would have done stuff differently now, but if that was their thought process, it suggests that Cheep Chomp is a rename that is a result of the more standard Big Cheep Cheep soon completely supplanting Boss Bass as the large variant (with Bubba possibly a remnant of when the Super Mario 64 fish were designed as Blurp-like), or at least it may have been the stance at the time. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:10, January 3, 2020 (EST)
 * I pretty much doubt so. -- 11:04, January 4, 2020 (EST)
 * It wouldn't be entirely unprecedented if that were the case. Recall the Grinder situation. When Ukkiki/Ukiki was introduced in Super Mario 64, it seemed to be based on an older enemy but otherwise appeared to be a new one (although this may have been the result of N64 graphics at the time). Later, Ukiki was given Grinder's design in the DS remake, which soon stuck around, and then took Grinder's role in the Yoshi games, effectively merging them. In this scenario, Bubba/Cheep Chomp was also intended to be a new enemy directly based on an older one, but then in the DS remake onwards, it was given a design closer to Boss Bass in an attempt to remove Blurp-like features and consolidate them. The finer details aren't precisely the same, but there are enough similarities to draw comparisons. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:49, January 5, 2020 (EST)
 * As for Ukiki, it had some details that hinted that it was intended to be similar, such as the cat-like mouth, similar appearance to the in-game sprite, etc. -- 08:01, January 5, 2020 (EST)
 * The monkey also had both names in use simultaneously at one point (Yoshi's New Island), so I realize that it's not a perfect parallel, but I think it's at the very least possible that Bakubaku and Boss Bass were considered one and the same during the brief period it was colored red rather than purple. This might explain the replacement of the big Cheep Cheep with the red Bakubaku in Banshee Boardwalk. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:26, January 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Like I've been saying, 64DS conflated a lot with its redesigns. They may have tried to consider them the same at that point, but Nintendo since undid that by making a "normal" Big Cheep Cheep and recoloring Cheep Chomp. So they consider 64DS-Baku different from Boss Bass in hindsight, sorta like renaming Kuromame to Keronpa Ball. The monkeys, however, got so thoroughly entwined it doesn't seem Nintendo's too sure where to draw the line. Anyways, regarding the fish, the 64DS devs probably thought it should be the same as "Big Pukupuku," while the NSMBDS devs decided it shouldn't, despite using the same model. The SM64DS enemy may have been "Big Pukupuku" in that narrow window of time, but further developments on the species retroactively made it different. Sort of a development retcon, like (with the example FoY likes to use) a nonspecific variant of Boo Guy being later specified as "Relay Heiho." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:24, January 5, 2020 (EST)
 * There is still [[media:SMP_page_62_excerpt.png|this nugget]] that describes Cheep Chomp as 「巨大なプクプク」 (Kyodai na Pukupuku), which is almost certainly a deliberate reference to 「巨大プクプク」 (Kyodai Pukupuku), the Japanese name of Boss Bass. Super Mario Pia might not have the best track record when it comes to precisely listing appearances, but I imagine the descriptions themselves probably came from Nintendo officially instead of being newly written up by Pia. Note that the book dates after Cheep-Chomp was established with its modern purple coloration (which might have initially been to better distinguish it from Mega Cheep-Cheep on a Nintendo DS screen rather than to intentionally distance itself from the red-colored design), though it may have been taken from an earlier source. Also, the idea of a "development retcon" is interesting - if that is indeed the case with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp, how can you be sure that it has not happened with the reinvented Big Cheep Cheep? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:13, January 15, 2020 (EST)
 * Because of the NES Remix thing. While I acknowledge a similar case exists with the Sledge Bros., giving the old name when it's currently the name of a totally different enemy doesn't make sense. And given the original idea for Boss Bass itself was "large Cheep Cheep with no-frills name (in language of origin), a concept shared with modern Big Cheep Cheep but not Cheep Chomp, the entity "Big Pukupuku" simply had its unique aspects (which ultimately amounts to "a slightly altered version of the game's normal Cheep Cheep behavior and an altered design to facilitate that") given to a different enemy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:52, January 15, 2020 (EST)
 * Regarding NES Remix - it's definitely possible that the developers were deliberately connecting the original Kyodai Pukupuku / Boss Bass with the modern Dai/Deka Pukupuku / Big Cheep Cheep. It's also certainly possible that indieszero was only working within the scope of Super Mario Bros. 3, as research on newer games may not have been part of the assignment given by Nintendo, and the Japanese developers loosely translated Kyodai as "Big" in English rather than the standard "Giant" definition, explaining the Super Mario Bros. 3-related filenames and causing PukupukuBig to be incidental. At this juncture, it's hard to discount either possibility. Given the convoluted developmental history, couldn't one also make the case that red Bakubaku = Boss Bass = Big Cheep Cheep, with original Bakubaku (Bubba) and purple Bakubaku (Cheep Chomp) perhaps as their own offshoots? LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:55, January 15, 2020 (EST)
 * Problem with that is that the SM64DS Red Baku and the NSMB Purple Baku literally share a model and programming (other than adapting it to a 2D plane). The original Baku acted a lot more effectively than the one in the remake, admittedly, but that seems simply the logical thing to do with an already-OP enemy on a system with a handicapped control scheme. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:23, January 15, 2020 (EST)
 * Speaking of the reskin, did the fins also change? -- 04:48, February 2, 2020 (EST)
 * Yeah, SM64 had all Cheep fins red and blurp-like, SM64DS made the side ones wingy, the tail fins three-lobed and yellow, and gave the final version of the iconic yellow mohawk dorsal fin. For reference, in SMB3, they were all round, blunt, and white, while NSMB used the same models as SM64DS while recoloring Baku's dorsal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:10, February 2, 2020 (EST)
 * I actually mean between SM64DS and NSMB Bakubaku. -- 11:55, February 15, 2020 (EST)
 * Oh, they did not. aside from color of dorsal and tail. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:58, February 15, 2020 (EST)

Another thing: in the Super Mario Maker games, enemies and objects are generally very design-accurate to the game styles. There's some remarkable attention to detail overall, such as Rocky Wrench originally having a shell up to a point or Hammer Bro becoming a Sledge Bro instead of a "Big Hammer Bro"  when enlarged. Despite this, Big Cheep Cheep in Super Mario Bros. 3 style looks standard and doesn't resemble Boss Bass. I find this a strange omission given the other Cheep Cheep skins. Would you consider this an oversight, or is there something to it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:52, February 18, 2020 (EST)
 * Note how Big Goombas split in two. Can't talk now, get back to you later. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:24, February 18, 2020 (EST)
 * OK, I'm back now, so time for excruciating detail. The "big" enemies in SMM are all based off the NSMBU versions when applicable, with the sole exception of Big Deep Cheep and another type of exception covered below. This is why Sledge Bro still looks different, because as of NSMBU, it's still distinct-looking. Additionally, the amount of enemies that actually change functionally between styles is quite small, those being Bowser, Goomba/Galoomba, Koopa Troopa, Piranha Plant, and Dry Bones. In each of those other than Bowser, the offending party is for the SMW style, and in all of these, the differences extend to the big versions. And note how other than the big versions of those enemies, none of the "big" enemies have any unique characteristics from their counterparts in any one style, and aside from the NSMBU-based ones have any behavioral differences with their smaller counterpart. Also, this would mean enlarging them in the SMB style underwater would turn it into a spawner of smaller enemies, which is an even more drastic change. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:11, February 18, 2020 (EST)
 * Well, in most games in the mario series it is not refered to as Big Cheep Cheep, it is known as Boss Bass. Just putting my two cents in. 08:28, May 16, 2020 (EDT)

Another update: for Super Mario World depict what is clearly Boss Bass looking simply like a large version of  (note the non-slanty eyes), while  for Super Mario World 2 show a large-sized Flopsy Fish with a smaller open mouth, though for all we know that might be an unused boss-type thing. Lunge Fish existed as a weird worm-looking thing in prototype revisions, so this may be an early example of the developmental behavior starting to simplify as more enemies were made. The former sprites in particular are near identical to Yoshi's Story "Blurps." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:39, July 26, 2020 (EDT)
 * One thing I want to add is that Porcu-Puffer had different, rounded eyes in the early Super Mario World assets, strongly resembling what would have been the game's version of Boss Bass. This likely means that when Boss Bass was axed, the redesigned eyes were nixed entirely and the Super Mario Bros. 3 eyes of Boss Bass were given to the final version of Porcu-Puffer to retain the connection in some way. Another thing that may be pertinent to this discussion, also related to recent developments: apparently in the Super Mario 64 source files, Bub is "puku" and Bubba is "buku" - in other words, from the Japanese names Pukupuku (Cheep Cheep) and Buku Buku (Blurp). This means that Cheep Chomp was intended to be derived from the Super Mario World Blurp after all, explaining why it originally had shades. Additionally, apparently in the Yoshi's Story source files, Cheep Cheep is "minipuku" (compare miniteresa) and the Yoshi's Story Blurp is "pukupuku</tt>". This explains why the game just refers to the latter as 「プクプク」 (Pukupuku, Cheep Cheep), which the translators misread as 「ブクブク」 (Buku Buku, Blurp). It's not clear which actor references Spiny Fish, but it might be "buku</tt>", which would explain why the game's version of Spiny Cheep Cheep looks so different; there doesn't seem to be a reference to Togepuku at any rate. There's also something called "teppou_gun</tt>", which I presume is the water shot from Blue Blurp. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:00, August 4, 2020 (EDT)
 * Interesting. Regarding the Story file names, it sort of makes me think of how Galaxy gives Prickly Piranha Plant the "normal" file name while the normal one has a "small" file name, though in this Cheep/Blurp case post-release sources seem more vague about the distinction. Related, are the files for the other "Huge Island" (and for that matter, Tiny Island) enemies more along the lines of "Big/Small [x]?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:24, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Like Super Mario 64 DS, it doesn't seem like it and rather the in-game engine resizes them, though keep in mind that some are saying that the source isn't complete. There are plenty of early names that weren't left over in Super Mario 64 DS either, but on the topic of large enemies, the one that stuck out to me is that the game's Monty Mole is internally referred to as "indy</tt>" of all things. Given the Argonaut Yoshi was found in an INDY folder, my first thought is that it must be some kind of in-joke, but the reason for that is because of the line of computers (nicknamed "Indy" since they supposedly wouldn't "go" as in they were known to be slow) that Star Fox/Super FX models were made in. So unless Monty Mole was originally supposed to be larger, I don't really get the significance of Indy. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:59, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * I had figured that it was simply in-engine parameter differences, though the slight behavioral differences had me curious. That Indy bit amuses me, since it's similar to Morty Mole's situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:40, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * One more thing about the Monty Mole: it, like many other enemy models, is set at hmsScale(0.25f)</tt>, which if I'm understanding it right means that the model is compiled to output a quarter of its original size. So it could very well be the case that the model was intended for an actual Indy, but they decided to consider it a Monty Mole when it was shrunken to around Mario's size (ironically CHOROPU</tt> became slightly larger than Mario in Super Mario 64 DS). If that's true, that means that the developers really did consider Mega Mole to just be a big Monty Mole, though I'm not sure where exactly Morty Mole fits into this. That aside, with a broader history of the Super Mario 64 and Yoshi's Story filenames, I have no more reservations about moving the Boss Bass information to Big Cheep Cheep. The only suggestion I'd add is keeping Boss Bass as a disambiguation page, much like the Bubba disambiguation page, because the name also refers to two subjects. Only question I have is: should we consider Cheep Chomp a derivative of Blurp in light of buku</tt>, Big Cheep Cheep because of Super Mario Pia, or both? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:14, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * (Coulda had sunglasses at one point and removed 'em when they decided to use it for the "normal" type...) Honestly, probably both. Additionally, given the findings on Porcupuffer's prototype eyes, it should probably be considered a Big Cheep Cheep variant too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:18, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * (Its eye texture is labeled as indy_eye_txt</tt> though...) I was thinking the same thing about Porcupuffer, possibly promoting Spiny Cheep Cheep from comparable to relative or second parent as well. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:36, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * (Unique design relative to other Monty Moles anyways (and as such may have had a different model still at some point) and could have changed the texture image or had it 2D on the front, but regardless, neither here nor there) And on that note, any interesting file name for Spike Bass, or is it just Igapuku there too? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, August 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * (Some of the asset filenames like "big-killer" make me wonder if the developers just wanted to be a bit more creative for the big enemy names in Super Mario World though.) Actually, interestingly, it's togepuku</tt>. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:36, August 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * (Fair, but we did get a "Big Bullet Bill" in M&S since then.) Guess we should consider that a variant of Spiny Cheep Cheep, then? It does look kinda like an edgy version of the Yoshi's Story design... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:39, August 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * (True, but I figured that was an anomaly like Mega Hammer Bro in Mario Kart Tour, which would otherwise be Sledge Bro.) Sounds good. I think all of these relation changes can be made independent of moving Super Mario Bros. 3 Boss Bass and Yoshi's Story Blurp info to Big Cheep Cheep, though I'll leave Spiny Cheep Cheep's exact relation to Porcupuffer to your discretion. Honestly, I think there is enough evidence to just do it if there wasn't a history of previous proposals. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:26, August 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'm honestly also kinda on the fence about Porker and Toge's relation. While it could have simply been designed as the Boss Bass version of Spiny Cheep Cheep (which it essentially is), the lack of that key bit of conclusive proof, the JP name being different enough it could be either "creative freedom" on naming and design or simply incidental, and the fact that NSMBW keeps their designs separate indicates "related" may be the thing to do. Granted, said game also makes Spiny Cheep as aggressive as Porcupuffer. SMM2 has Porcupuffer able to be enlarged and no Spiny Cheep, but obviously, it can be a variant/derived without necessarily being simply "a big version." I'm probably going to flip-flop on this a lot in the future, but for now, probably "relatives" is the thing to do (unless further down the line proto SMW Spiny Cheep sprites are found). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:41, August 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * Anyways, I created a little timeline of the design changes. It's really quite smooth in how it changes! Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:36, August 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Looks good. By the way, is the Super Mario World one the proper palette or custom colors? LinkTheLefty (talk) 03:30, August 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * It's the game's red palette, which I applied myself but is still valid as far as the tile assets are concerned. Normal Cheep Cheeps use the game's yellow palette, even the early ones (which are the SMB3 ones with forward eyes and added shading), due to using the shared "dark orange" shade up top. Since Boss Bass doesn't have dark orange mapped there, the yellow palette doesn't work for it. Since AFAIK no coded version of them has been found, any palette is technically a guess. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:08, August 9, 2020 (EDT)

Probably intended to be a redesign of the Boss Bass, in SMW. -- 13:08, August 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * No "probably" about it, has sprites for an open-mouthed one as well. The SMW2 one could be either an eaty one or not, as the seeming lack of animatable frames indicates it's probably unfinished. Regardless, the thicker outlines on the lips and fins indicate it was likely going to be rotated like the thick-lined open-mouthed ones in the final. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:21, August 9, 2020 (EDT)