Talk:Vivian

Gender
Okay, I think we need to discuss her gender before making another overhaul, as it is tedious to search out every pronoun and replace them. Here are the problems as I see them: I hope we can resolve this quickly, as it is a very petty thing to argue over. Goomb-omb
 * 'They' is not proper grammar for referring to one person. It may be acceptable in colloquial speaking English, but never in written English.
 * 'She' is a problem, because in the original Japanese version Vivian is not a girl. (Proof?)
 * 'It' is unacceptable when referring to people. "It" is demeaning and insulting, and should never be used when referring to a person. (And is often frowned upon when referring to a pet/animal when the gender is knownn)
 * S/he, or he/she is cumbersome, as is writing Vivian over an over again.


 * I feel 'it' is only insulting when it, lol pun?, is intended to be insulting. 'They' is not necessarily improper in speech, but here I see what you mean. S'he or he/she is worse than writing the name constantly. FD09

Wait, how did we handle this with Birdo's article? We should do the same with this one, as I really haven't seen any complaints about Birdo's page yet. -Moonshine
 * We used Birdo's name a lot and 'it'.FD09
 * Lol, there are some complaints about Birdo's article. Birdo is currently referred to as "it"--which I don't think is appropriate for Vivian. Goomb-omb
 * Vivian is a she. She kisses Mario.
 * Is that sarcasm? FD09
 * Males can kiss other males, you know. Both Bowser and Booster have kissed Mario.  (Although I do agree that she would be the best choice in this case ) Goomb-omb
 * Well, at this point I think we should address Vivian as a "She" in the article except for the "Gender Controversy" section, which should remain the same. Besides, the general consensus of the readers most likley associate her with being as female, and also because Vivian was even called a she on her catch card in SPM (which has been her most recent appearance. -Moonshine
 * Yes, but it is due to this conflict that we should not refer to such characters with a gender. Also, that's American translation. It has been proven Vivian is known originally as male anyway, the problem with referring to such characters as female. FD09
 * According to the article, there is CONTROVERSY about Vivian's gender in the original Japanese version, not that Vivian is explicitly male. I feel that "it" i less acceptable here than for Birdo because Birdo is more of a 'creature', and Vivian is more of a 'person', and people are never referred to as 'it'. Goomb-omb
 * How is Vivian not a creature? Vivian is quite obviously not human. FD09

But she is sentinent. Besides, people, c'mon: VIVIAN IS FEMALE! she is called female by all other characters in PM2. It is only in the Japanese game that she is male, and this is an ENGLISH wiki. We should still mention that she was male in Japan, but other than that, what is this argument for? - Ultimatetoad


 * I agree with this, we've adapted content to be American anyway. Take the MKWii vehicles for example, we changed names like "Rally Romper" and "Aero Glider" to "Tiny Titan" and "Jetsetter" Doesn't American content (somehow) win out in things like these? -Moonshine

.....this conversation leads down an extremly bad road (trust me, I know). This is an English wiki, so the English names/definitions take precedence. This works for the Vivian article, but those other things are controversal, because they are english too..... - Ultimatetoad

Besides, didn't the other Shadow Sirens call her a girl a few times?

I think referring to Vivian as female throughout the article is fine as long as it is first acknowledged in her bio at the top of the page that she is a male. FD09


 * Fair enough.-Moonshine

FD... what? she's not a male. - Ultimatetoad
 * But she is. Vivian is acknowledged as female by other characters because her appearances leads them to believe so. That's the fact, if I'm not mistaken.FD09

But wait, her OWN sisters call her female. Heres how I understand it: Vivian is a male in the japanese version of the game. Goombella's tattle says so. HOWEVER she is female in all other versions. - Ultimatetoad

Wait wait wait wait wait wait FD, I hate to argue, but I really think you're wrong on this. EVERYONE in the english version calls her female. Her gender was changed when she moved overseas: it happens a lot, actually. - Ultimatetoad

Uhm, it is said Vivian is originally male, so she is. There's nothing wrong with stating that Vivian is actually male, regardless of nation, because she is... Confusing, but correct. No one should have a problem with the facts, and since we are still referring to her as she throughout the article, it is correct. FD09

....... confusing is right. She is only male overseas: in North America, she is female. So, basically, she is not "actually" anything, but a character whose gender changes between games/versions. - Ultimatetoad
 * What Ultimatetoad said. Plus, what you had on the article was too confusing anyway.

Thats another thing: readers will be confused if the article refers to her as both male & female. - Ultimatetoad
 * Moonshine fixed it.
 * Is Vivian really male in the Japanese version, or is there confusion in the Japanese version? I thought the three of them were referred to as majotchi or whatever, and that that was a female term?Goomb-omb

There is confusion in the japanese version, but the tattle log calls vivian male. And the current version of the article is incorrect as well: Listen, the gender of the character was changed. She is not "referred to as female in other regions to avoid confusion": in other regions, she is female. - Ultimatetoad
 * Actually, she's a boy in the Japanese version; she's just mistaken as a girl due to her appearance. She' female in all other regions.
 * So can't we just have it as "she", since she's a female in more regions than she's called male?
 * We're trying, but FD09 is trying to convince everyone into believing that she is male. (despite the fact that she's female in other regions)
 * It's settled then. If someone wants an article calling Vivian a male, then go make a mariowiki.jp :P Goomb-omb


 * Oh my gosh... I never thought this would happen with Vivian. Come on people, be serious. We are an English-speaking wiki, and Vivian is quite definitely female in English-speaking countries! 20:37, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

There's what... four different sections talking about the same thing? Anyway, I just want to ask if anyone knows what the capture card from the Japanese Super Paper Mario says. That is, if it uses a male pronoun, female, or neither. If it uses neither, darn. If it uses a male pronoun, continue the argument. But if it uses female, then that either means they decided to change it and pretend people would forget about it, it was an insult by Beldam which confused Mario and his party, or some other third thing.--Topmonhit 03:01, 23 July 2009 (EDT)
 * The silliest part of the four section thing is that new comments are put in every one of them, as opposed to the latest one. The Japanese SPM card idea is smart, though even if they retconned the male thing, we'd still include it - just like how we include Birdo's original portrayal. Not doing so would be an oversight, as we want to be as thorough as possible. The argument on the matter is closed; the gender stuff is staying, and even if there's hundreds of sections complaining about it, it's not gonna change. - 02:14, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

Since I've actually played the original, maybe I can clear up a few things. Yes, the manual plainly states that Vivian looks like a girl but is actually a boy. The article mistakenly claims that Goombella confirms that Vivian is female, that needs to fixed. She calls them 'sisters[?]' in her letter. Which is likely a reference to their first encounter in the Boggly Woods. (Which is quite different in the English version, so let me sum up it up: Beldam completely flips out when Vivian introduces them the Three Shadow Sisters, says that they're the Three Shadow Siblings and swears to punish Vivian later.) --94.22.49.215 17:56, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the info. I changed the page to try to make it clear that she's not an actual female, just that her sisters' tolerance of her gender identity seems to have increased (the Spanish version maintains this). - 18:16, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
 * Thank you. I was just about to link a screenshot of the ending here, for further proof: http://i.imgur.com/3xAVltw.jpg (Goombella only refers to Vivian by name during the whole scene, not by any gender pronoun.) --94.22.49.215 18:24, 12 March 2013 (EDT)
 * Perfect! I added a link to it as a reference on the article. Thanks so much! - 19:25, 12 March 2013 (EDT)

Here is proof that vivian is female in japan The US version of the game makes no mention of this insult and Vivian is referred to as a 'she'.

The English version unambiguously refers to Vivian as female throughout the game. This could have been done to prevent confusion with the following point... Traditionally and even today, calling a woman a man is an insult, and Beldam was trying to insult Vivian

. Beldam was clearly trying to insult Vivian there, and implying that she was unfeminine would have been a shocking insult for Vivian (at least, it would be in Japan). Going back to the first point, it can be argued that the insult was removed because the possibility of it being taken the wrong way was too great. The description and tattle logs are biased in nature.

After all, Vivian was only called a 'brother' after Mario and co. heard that comment. Remember that Paper Mario is a humo(u)rous series, and humor poking fun at Vivian's perceived lack of femininity would have been okay in Japan (but once again, open to misinterpretation in the United States). Calling Vivian the youngest "brother" could be the game's way of mocking Vivian if they were a women. There are no other references to Vivian being male in the Japanese game

. Nobody else in the game refers to Vivian as male. Vivian identifies as female, being "the youngest sister" and all. Even if she were biologically male, Vivian identifying as a woman is reason enough to support their being female. The collective name for the Shadow Sirens in Japan roughly translates to female sorcerers.

Mixed-group names typically tend to be more masculine; for example, in Spanish, once a group has a single male in it, it must be referred to in the masculine plural "ellos" and can only be called in the feminine plural "ellas" if it is made only of woman. A similar situation occurs in Mandarin, where a mixed-gender group is referred to using the masculine plural 他们 (ta1men) and can only be referred to in the feminine plural 她们 (ta1men) if it is made only of women. Japanese being such a gender-oriented language, it would be odd for a group with one male member to be referred to by the name "The Sorceresses", especially if Beldam was intent on "calling Vivian out" on their being male. Which side is correct? There is no consensus as to whether Vivian is male or female. Personally, I feel there is no hard-hitting truth. There are those oddball people who say Vivian is a hermaphrodite, genderless, or intersexual, but there are few arguments to support those views. I personally consider Vivian to be female due to having first played the American version of the game, but I could accept a male Vivian as well. In any case, there is no need for ridiculous flame wars over this subject (as have existed).


 * Different localizations depict her differently: Beldam isn't saying Vivian's unfeminine in the Japanese version - she literally spells out that Vivian is a boy. Trying to say that Goombella's tattles are biased by what she heard rather than telling the truth is way to speculative: wiki policy is to report the facts as they are, and the fact is that the Japanese tattle says Vivian is the younger brother, whereas Vivian herself considers herself a "sister" - being one sex physically but identifying as another makes you transgender, and to simply say "she's female" is to ignore the full story. The English version whitewashes this plot out because Japan is a lot more liberal about LGBT issues than numerous English-speaking nations: the fact that folks are constantly trying to censor this page is testament to that. So yes, in the English version, Vivian is female, plain and simple, but in other versions, including the original Japanese, she is male-to-female transgender, and the article reflects that. - 20:00, 1 April 2014 (EDT)

How Could She Not Be Female?
That's just freaky. It seems EXTREMELY obvious by her appearance that she is female, and she is attracted to Mario. I doubt Nintendo would create a homosexual character...I can't imagine them doing that.

Also, only her 1st battle stats are there...


 * Homosexual would mean that one has attraction for a person of the same sex, but Vivian is (in the original) obviously a male who wants to be a female, which makes her some kind of transgendered character (like Birdo). Nintendo (and Intelligent Systems) are Japanese companies, and in Japan, characters with alternate sexual orientations are common in popular culture, there are even a whole categories of anime and manga focussing on characters of this kind. --Grandy02 11:34, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, fair enough...that's very confusing that the Japanese version has a different perspective on this character (avoided using "he" or "she.") I think that when they translate the game to English for us people, they should keep things the same unless they make absolutely no sense in English. Obviously that would sound a bit weird to us with our different culture, but maybe they changed it to avoid controversy.


 * Four Words, or one abreviation: the ESRB. Them and that wonderful "suggestive themes" blanket statement.  01:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I personaly belive that due to the fact that most regions refer to Vivian as a female, that should make her/him a her. However, because in Japan she is a he, and Nitendo is Japanese, Vivian should be a male. Her and or His name is Vivian, which is a boys name, as well as the apperance of a girl, makes Vivian a girl. Possibly.

Thanks for clearing that up. >_> I can't even tell which gender you support. 18:52, 24 December 2008 (EST)
 * Don't be sarcastic, 'tis not nice. Anyway, if she's biologically male but identifies with being female, that makes her transsexual (though "transgendered" works too). According to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, transsexuals should be identified with the gender they identifies themselves with (see here), meaning there is no reason why Vivian can't be called a "she" in the article. Same goes for Birdo. - 19:23, 24 December 2008 (EST)


 * Why are we under any obligation to follow those guidelines?


 * Again, very good point. I would also like to note that there are not any "gendered" pronouns in Japanese (such as "he" or "she"), which can complicate translating games into other languages that contain such pronouns (like English). --


 * Actually, there is 彼 kare, as well as 彼女 kanojo, which mean he and she, respectively. But they aren't common.  Actually, Japanese has a lot of pronouns with genders, it's just that pronouns in general are not very common.  01:51, 26 December 2008 (EST)


 * Right, totally. So they probably don't appear in video games that often. --

Wow, everyone forgets this... At the trouble center, the trouble by Goom Goom the Goomba (Looking for a Gal) We find out that when you try to hook them up, the reason for their incompatibility is and I quote "Whoa! You sure are cute...But um... That shadowy goth thing is a bit... (pauses) Creepy! There, I said it!" (end qoute) Vivain's reaction to this was (quoting again)"You're not doing much to impress me either,bud!" (ending quote) Thus proving the inevitable point that Vivain is a girl who got insulted by her sister Beldem by calling her a dude. We can look it as a continuing joke as Luigi never being recognized by anyone, it's the same in Japan!! Plus, in Super Paper Mario, she is referenced as a female as a catch card (We gotta catch this early, otherwise is going to be the Birdo crisis all over again!) I hope this settled the debate! --Cha0z Slayer 02:48, 29 November 2009 (EST)
 * Is that a joke? Not only does that not settle anything, but if you wanted to settle this early you would've had to have replied over a year ago. lol wtheck FD09


 * Honestly, got to react on this even though this is what, nearly 3 years old. Yes, Vivian is male in Japan, Spain and other dubs. Yes, Vivian would actually be Homosexual, even though he prefers to be female. The key thing here would be that Vivian is a guy, and has a crush on another guy, thus in that view, homosexual. Besides, Yoshi would also be considerd homosexual like that. So that would already be 3 Homosexual characters in the Mario games. Of course, not being able to imagine Nintendo to make Homosexual characters makes no sense, and honestly, kind of insulting as well. In Japan and Europe, homosexuality is common in media and culture. Let me state it like this, Nintendo does make and have a lot of homosexual characters, the odds of them being openly stated like that in American versions however, is slim. Hence why Japan and for example, Spain had Vivian keep his/her own gender. Dark Gamer 11:51, 10 December 2011 (EST)
 * Actually, if she's physically male but identifies as female, that makes her a heterosexual transsexual MTF female, not a homosexual guy (see here), and the female pronoun should be used when talking about her. - 22:47, 10 December 2011 (EST)
 * All I tried to say with that is that Nintendo does make Homosexual/Transsexual characters and doesn't have a problem with those, as in Japanese and European popculture, as it was being said earlier in this conversation how Nintendo wouldn't make any homosexual characters, which I found offensive to begin with, as it was being stated like it would be something odd. Dark Gamer 10:20, 11 December 2011 (EST)

In Spanish
At least in spanish (or is it "european"?) version, its told in the game that Vivian is a MALE that disguises as female. In the description of the character says it. Also, his/her sister talks about him/her as a boy. Goombella´s description does as well...
 * I don't recall that in the German version. Looks like some translations decided to keep the original Japanese story while others changed it. - 16:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ok, yes. I remember that in the game his/her sister said that "he likes to think that hes a girl but hes really a boy". It seems that is not present in other european countryes.

Drmgin 12:40, 20 January 2009 (EST)
 * It is. I have the French version. And if German and France call her as a guy, I think it's the same for other PAL regions. Koopalmier 05:53, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

in the italian version is an ex male--Koopakingdomking 18:20, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

remove gender part
I am thinking about removing the gender part. I have researched this, and concluded: Vivian was NOT a male in the JAP version. Beldam's referral to her as a man was merely an insult. It is an insult to say a female looks like a man. JerseyMarioFreak 00:15, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Vivian is indeed a girls name (Vivian Vance, I Love Lucy, anyone?)

And Walkazo, who gives a flying *CENSORED* what GLAAD says? They should all be thrown in prison!!! JerseyMarioFreak 00:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)


 * That doesn't even make sense. Not only is your comment extremely offensive, but the Mario Wiki is committed to having complete coverage of the Mario series in all its forms.  As her sex and gender change between versions of the game, we need to document this. --
 * Agreed. Although I hate to admit it, Vivian was a guy in Japan. Although that paragraph is somewhat cryptic, we need to include it in the article because it was part of the history of Vivian.
 * Okay, I rewrote the whole section, so hopefully it's a lot clearer now. I'm afraid I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, so I couldn't really comment on how they approach gender identity in their media (I know it's a bit more fluid and less squirrelly than in mainstream North America, but I couldn't find any solid references to cite on the matter, so I left it out). Hopefully the link to Wikipedia's bishounen article makes up for my Western outlook on transgendered pronoun usage. - 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Another Quote, Possibly Better?
I think instead of the quote used at the beginning of the article, we could use this one from Vivian. "Your name was stolen? I see... Well, I guess that happens from time to time..." I think it is funnier and kind of tells how interesting the game gets :P If you all don't agree, that's okay.

If you would like, you can do it. Just edit the Template: Quote. It should look like this:

gray


 * Personally, the current quote sounds better and matches Vivian a bit more, as it's the time where she gets the confidence to finally stand up to her older sister.


 * I agree.

An answer from Nintendo?
Came here after noticing a lot of discussion recently about Vivian. While most of it is in good taste, the strange argument over her gender is always brought up. Maybe we can send an email to Nintendo using their Japanese support email? I don't see why they can't answer this question for us. (I did send NoA an email about this, shh... I got a response saying they can't answer questions relating to the Japanese release, but did confirm Vivian's description lists her as a girl) If someone fluent in Japanese can send Nintendo an email, we could resolve this gender debate. At the very least they'll see there's still interest in Vivian.

"References" not quite right
This sentence from the "References" section isn't quite right, and I can't figure out how to change it: 'In the Spanish version of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, during her Tattle for Vivian ("Bibiana" in the localization), Goombella originally uses a female pronoun for Vivian ("la") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine pronoun ("el") instead: "¡Es Bibiana! La más pequeña del Trío de las Sombras... Bueno... EL más pequeño [...]"' "El" and "la" are articles, not pronouns, and this overlooks the feminine and masculine versions of "pequeño". I think something more like "Goombella originally uses feminine terms for Vivian ("la más pequeña") but then corrects herself and uses the masculine version ("el más pequeño") instead..." would probably be better. Karma (talk)
 * Thanks for catching that! I've fixed the reference to what you suggested. - 20:00, 1 April 2014 (EDT)

the proof that Vivain is male in the Japan version is not the Japan version so we can't used that as proof and  here are the reasons why Vivian is female in the Japan version  Beldam calls Vivian a man as an insult. You know, saying she's so ugly she looks like a man. Goombella also goes along with the joke in her tattle log because she was just told by Beldam that Vivian is male. In the English translation of the game, they changed the joke entirely, saying she's "pug-ugly", since the joke wouldn't have translated very well. Seeing as how this is such an issue, they were right to change it. The collective name for the Shadow Sirens in Japan roughly translates to female sorcerers.

Mixed-group names typically tend to be more masculine; for example, in Spanish, once a group has a single male in it, it must be referred to in the masculine plural "ellos" and can only be called in the feminine plural "ellas" if it is made only of woman. A similar situation occurs in Mandarin, where a mixed-gender group is referred to using the masculine plural 他们 (ta1men) and can only be referred to in the feminine plural 她们 (ta1men) if it is made only of women. Japanese being such a gender-oriented language, it would be odd for a group with one male member to be referred to by the name "The Sorceresses", especially if Beldam was intent on "calling Vivian out" on their being male. There are no other references to Vivian being male in the Japanese game

. Nobody else in the game refers to Vivian as male. Vivian identifies as female, being "the youngest sister" and all. Even if she were biologically male, Vivian identifying as a woman is reason enough to support their being female. The description and tattle logs are biased in nature. After all, Vivian was only called a 'brother' after Mario and co. heard that comment. Remember that Paper Mario is a humo(u)rous series, and humor poking fun at Vivian's perceived lack of femininity would have been okay in Japan (but once again, open to misinterpretation in the United States). Calling Vivian the youngest "brother" could be the game's way of mocking Vivian if they were a women. calling a woman a man is an insult, and Beldam was trying to insult Vivian. Beldam was clearly trying to insult Vivian there, and implying that she was unfeminine would have been a shocking insult for Vivian (at least, it would be in Japan). Going back to the first point, it can be argued that the insult was removed because the possibility of it being taken the wrong way was too great. in the end goombella concludes that vivian is a girl in the japanese version  also Hooktail is called a guy in the tattle log and every one called her a dude so Goombella called Hooktail a guy and when it find out that he was a she Goombella was to lazy to change her info  and this is from a comment i have seen  on youtube i'am not sure about this comment but i will post it here any way vivian is female, they translated it wrong like they did with poison from final fight. they do not know how to translate properly and this  Another point is, in their japanese name i believe is "The Sorceress's" Now in japanese, if just one male is in a group of people, then the term would be changed to a masculin term like "The Sorceror's" A group term is only female if everyone in the group is female. Since the Shadow Siren's japanese name is "The Sorceress's" That means all members of it must be female. If Vivian were male, they would be called "The Sorceror's"


 * As I told you last time, Vivian identifying as a female makes her transgender in the Japanese and various PAL translations; close-minded reactions like this is why they had to censor it to just plain female in the English version. Beldam calling Vivian a boy was explicitly spelled out in red katakana: it's meant to be taken literally, and the Japanese LP I watched had the Japanese player taking it as such. The fact that so many different languages all maintain the "boy who identifies as a girl" point, yet giving it different spins, also show that it's true. In fact, in the Italian version, Vivian says that she's not a real sister, but feels like a woman and is proud of it too: can't get any less ambiguous than that. The facts speak for themselves, so please stop trying to argue otherwise (especially if all you're gonna do is cut and paste chunks of your older post, like you did here, which is bending rules): all it comes off as is transphobic ranting at this point, which has no place on the wiki. - 20:13, 9 May 2014 (EDT)