Talk:Goal Pole (secret)

Well...
Is this actually a secret exit? Shouldn't there also be a Secret Fortress article too?-- 18:08, 2 April 2011 (EDT)

We should
We should really make a NSMB section. They're in it too you know!-- 17:50, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

Move to Secret Flagpole
I would like to move this page to Secret Flagpole. As the flagpole itself is not red, only the flag. Also, it could be moved to Secret Exit because creating a Secret Fortress page would be a copy to this page. I think I need to put this in proposal form? 09:57, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Support
yep 07:46, 6 June 2014 (EDT)

Comments
We should move this to Secret Goal Pole to go along with its counterpart.

Is this needed?
I don't mean to seem rude but it feels as if the purpose of this article is to dump the Secret Exit sections of the respective articles all in one place. I mean, it's basically just a palette swap with little to it garnering its own article. Am I alone in this regard? --Grammarcheck (talk) 16:35, 25 September 2016 (EDT)
 * Criticism is invited, just as long as you're reasonable, which you are. I do agree that this article teeters on covering strategy, which isn't allowed in this wiki. Considering that Star Coin doesn't have this insane level of information and Golden Banana's list was merged into the level articles, you also have a precedent. You have a pretty strong case to remove all of that information, I myself am pretty okay with this. However, the article on the basic information of what a Red Flagpole is and what it does makes for a valid, while short, article. 14:39, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * This article is almost entirely a walkthrough, which goes against our good writing policy. As is, I don't support keeping it. 14:46, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * This article is also full of spoilers--Frábært! 20:14, 27 February 2018 (EST)
 * ...And? 20:19, 27 February 2018 (EST)
 * It does not have any spoiler warning--Frábært! 18:29, 28 February 2018 (EST)
 * As stated on About, the MarioWiki does not usually mark spoilers. -- 18:30, 28 February 2018 (EST)

Name
Is the name official? Or is it fanmade? It would appear that the encyclopedia uses it. -- 09:17, June 5, 2019 (EDT)
 * The New Super Mario Bros. and New Super Mario Bros. Wii guides flat-out don't refer to it by a direct name, but the New Super Mario Bros. 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U guides refer to it as "Goal Pole" (sometimes "secret Goal Pole"). Maybe the article should be changed to "Goal Pole (red)" or "Goal Pole (secret)"? LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:40, June 5, 2019 (EDT)

Rewrite Requested
How would you like this article to be cleaned up? Should it be organized into tables? 19:49, April 14, 2020 (EDT)

Renaming the Red Flagpole page to Secret Goal Pole
This proposal is about renaming a page that users wanted to rename for years. This page has to be rename for the following reasons:
 * It contains an unofficial names that has no source
 * The custom name is actually wrong: the flagpole is grey while the flag is red
 * It does not fit with the Goal Pole page name
 * The title does not mention its purpose of being a secret Goal Pole

This page has to be rename because the name makes absolutely no sens at all. The name is actually "secret Goal Pole" with secret as an adjective not capitalized, vut it would be capitalized in the title since it is the first word. Moreover, this name has been employed in some New Super Mario Bros. 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U Nintendo-approved guides. I do not see any reasons to not use this name. Finally, due to the fact that recently, people have ben opting the name "red flag" for some reason, I am not against them as this is also a source name that is not wrong compared to this one, but "secret Goal Pole" makes a link with the normal Goal Pole and shows directly its purpose whereas "red flag" is not clear at first glance. Both are sourced so there is not any "real" problem with any of them.

Remember, "secret Goal Pole" is an official name.

Proposer: Deadline: January 12, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) There's no source for the name "Secret Goal Pole". If a source can't be found for Red Flagpole, then I'd prefer to see the article renamed to "red flag", which actually is sourced.
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time.
 * 3) Per Waluigi Time and DarkNight.
 * 4) Per Waluigi Time. Perhaps "Goal Pole (secret)" could be consider as well to keep the name similar enough to Goal Pole? But yeah, better go with a name that is sourced.
 * 5) Per Ninja Squid. Just use "Goal Pole (secret)" since most Prima guides I own just use "Goal Pole", same as its normal counterpart.
 * 6) Not now. I suggest adding the secret identifier until we get a name for this.
 * 7) If it's not an official name, it shouldn't be used when there are official names that exist.
 * 8) Per all. It'd still be a conjectural name, then.
 * 9) Per all, no point going from one conjectural name to another.

Comments
When the proposal deals with a single page you need to make a talk page proposal instead: you put the proposal in the talk page of the article where the change should happen. Furthermore, proposals are made when there is a disagreement, so there should be a discussion before. In this case, the discussion was left open more than a year ago, without a disagreement nor a conclusion, so maybe said discussion should be revived first and foremost.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:27, December 29, 2020 (EST)) - Comment made when it was on the main proposals page.

Where is the name "Secret Goal Pole" actually used? Unofficial names aren't uncommon here, we have plenty of conjectural titles here. We do have other sourced names for this, however. And the current name is still accurate, the flag is part of the flag pole. 11:41, December 29, 2020 (EST)
 * Apparently the NSMB2 and NSMBU guides use "secret Goal Pole", but never "Secret Goal Pole". They seem to just be referring to these as Goal Poles while adding secret as a generic adjective. -- 12:00, December 29, 2020 (EST)
 * As a matter of fact, the flag is part of the flagpole the same as a roof is part of a house. You cannot say the house is red if it is only the color of the roof. Moreover, the name "secret Goal Pole" (not capitalized, I apologize) is used in guides as said Waluigi Time. Finally, the current name has no source. So, why not rename it with an accurate name that is not wrong, and with a source? 1JUST1 (talk) 12:29, December 29, 2020 (EST)
 * You can edit a proposal in the first three days (well, six for talk page proposals like this one), so if you want to fix the capitalization you can do that now.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:49, December 29, 2020 (EST)
 * Hey! Got some new now. So, the name is really written as "secret Goal Pole" in PRIMA guides, which is considered to be a relatable source. Moreover, I have found that "hidden goals" was also used in the New Super Mario Bros. Wii instruction booklet. So this could also be a name, considering that this one is prior to the PRIMA one as it comes from an official Nintendo guide. 1JUST1 (talk) 18:04, January 5, 2021 (EST)
 * Hmm, to me, it doesn't really mean anything actually. Just like Waluigi Time explained to you above, they used the word "secret" as a generic adjective rather than as an official term for the name. As for "hidden goals", this is from Princess Peach's letter in this instruction booklet, where she mentions: "On some courses, there are hidden goals and secret paths that open up new places on the map!". To me, I think she was referring more to the fact that the courses have hidden goals (hidden objectives), rather than describing the Goal Pole, you know. To be honest, I think it might just be better to rename this page "Goal Pole (secret)", since they still make usage of the term "Goal Pole" for the Red Flagpole, while adding the "secret" identifier, since this is the generic adjective the NSMBU Prima guide uses to describe this goal pole.
 * Yeah, it could be better. 1JUST1 (talk) 17:16, January 6, 2021 (EST)

Decide on a name for this article
Alright, time to do this the right way. Now that we have four official names for this subject, I think we ought to choose which one works for the article title.

Proposer: Deadline: January 28, 2021, 23:59 GMT

"Goal Pole (secret)"

 * 1) My preferred option. Since two Prima guides use this name, I'd say this is fair game for source priority exception.
 * 2) I feel that this is the most consistent and accurate name.
 * 3) Is the most consistent and, if you count the Purple Toad House at Secret Island, technically in-game as part of the same "Goal Poles Reached" Record (in English; Japanese is worded differently for courses cleared and only refers to goals in the two other tallies).
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) While "red flag" is official, it's undescriptive and generic, so this conjectural title would be the better option for this wiki.

"Hidden goal"

 * 1) Since the term "Goal Pole" wasn't fully adopted until Super Mario 3D Land, I think this is specifically referring to these Goal Poles, considering several of the New Super Mario Bros. U Records still use "Goal" for short and it's closest to the Japanese Encyclopedia name.

"Red flag"

 * 1) Better go with an official name, Goal Pole (secret) is not official, it is just the term "Goal Pole" that is used in Prima guides, and the secret adjective to differentiate them.

Comments
Just for the record since this was originally mentioned after the first proposal ended: I didn't see "secret Goal Pole" in the 2 or U Prima guides (though the phrase "Goal Pole at the secret exit" or some such comes up), but I did notice that it is consistently "red-flag exit" in the New Super Mario Bros. Player's Guide, so use that or Wii manual's "hidden goal". either way "red flag" from Prima's Nintendo DS Pocket Guide has the lowest priority of the sourced names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:51, January 15, 2021 (EST)

@ the Goal Pole (secret) notation means that the actual name of the object is Goal Pole, the (secret) part is a disambiguation term used by the wiki to redirect to the various pages dedicated to objects sharing the same name, see for example Half-pipe (object). In this case, since the Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. U states Discover these secret exits and touch the Goal Pole at the end to unlock a hidden path on the World Map!, the Goal Pole term is official and Goal Pole (secret) is a valid title of this page that does not use an unofficial name.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:36, January 17, 2021 (EST)

@ It's important for you to know that the proposed title isn't conjectural, if it was it wouldn't even be allowed considering the guides use a term to refer to the secret goal poles and any term used in a guide takes precedence over a conjectural name. The adjective between brackets is a disambiguation term, it's not part of the name.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:10, January 23, 2021 (EST)