User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick/Archive 1

Going to be gone for a week
June 3-11, on vacation. Not sure when I'll have internet access.

Hey
Hey, its Shokora from The Spriters Resource. Good to see you here!

19:15, 10 July 2017 (EDT)


 * Ah, figured it was you! Hello!

18:27, 10 July 2017 (CT)

Categories
With this edit in mind, I would like to inform you that, per MarioWiki:Categories, pages should only have the deepest level of an applicable category. With Bēro in mind, since it already has Category:Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins Enemies, it should not also have Category:Enemies. 20:25, 14 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Whoops, sorry, I hadn't noticed that that was on there already. I guess I'm a klutz sometimes ^-^;; 19:29, 14 July 2017 (CT)
 * It's all good, it's all good! There are a lot of rules to keep in mind as you're editing, so it's okay if you slip up now and then! :D 21:45, 14 July 2017 (EDT)

Fire Squid
I'll most likely have it done early next week.

02:49, 15 July 2017 (EDT)


 * OK. And by the way, I know a bunch about cephalopods due to doing a research paper on them in 7th grade, and that's an octopus, not a squid ;). Is that an official name? 01:54, 15 July 2017 (CT)


 * Right! Well I guess I'll have to change it then ;) And no, I had to make up the names of like 80% of those enemies. For the official names, the sources are the instruction manual, Nintendo Power and what was revealed from an email to a Nintendo of America employee.


 * 03:04, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Wasn't sure since no page means no references XD. I remember the Email, but it was just the bosses, wasn't it? 02:13, 15 July 2017 (CT)


 * It was also Big Blob and Face Ball!


 * 04:47, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Ah yeah. I remember using Face Ball to surprise my Skype group several months ago, hehe. 03:55, 15 July 2017 (CT)

"why does this page even exist?"
The Big Boos were split because of this talk page proposal. 19:02, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know, and the points made don't really make a lot of sense when you get right down to it, due to the amount of enemies with behavioral differences in the Paper games, as I pointed out below it. I'd like to propose they be re-merged, but I'm not sure I'm ready enough to propose something. Oh, another thing I was wondering, is it OK for me to keep using Central Time? 18:05, 16 July 2017 (CT)
 * As long as you can properly explain your point, you're set to make a proposal. The rules are laid out on the Proposals page, but really, everything that you need to do is outlined through the basic proposal format. I'll still stand by my proposal, but you're more than free to counter it. On the subject of times, whatever pops up when you use ~ is perfectly acceptable, but when you're submitting a proposal, the deadline must be set according to GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). Conveniently, when you use, the current time in GMT shows up. So long as you set the deadline to two weeks after that date, you're set. 19:19, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

Super Mario enemy project
Are you done with the Super Mario enemy project? Wow. That whole thing just took its own course after the first edit. It was pretty much an unofficial project (at least, I think so). And plus, thanks for the help. I hope I was of use to you. 20:58, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
 * NP, and yes it was an unofficial project XD. Thank you too, I had actually forgotten Monty Mole until I saw you put that in there. And Spike Trap was quite well-written, congratulations on that :). 20:05, 16 July 2017 (CT)

Luigi Edit
HAHAHAHAH! Mario is Missing?! You've got to be kidding me! That game may have been the first official time that Luigi is the main protagonist, but I think the fans feel differently. And while I can't say what the fans feel, what I CAN say is that piece of an educational game did NOT help Luigi at all. In fact, it even screwed him even MORE into the number 2 and sidekick position! It was only Luigi's Mansion that was Luigi's first legitimate role as the main protagonist. And I was just trying to say how Super Mario Bros. screwed Luigi into the number 2 role in the first place, while Mario became a legend. I want to state that in a more informal role and less melo-dramatic role. I mean, that IS very important, right? 20:58, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Hey, I had a lot of fun with NES Mario is Missing and Mario's Time Machine when I was younger ;-; 20:08, 17 July 2017 (CT)

I guess. After all, you're what, 19 years old? (IT SAYS IT ON YOUR FRONT PAGE!) So I think you probably would have. But forgetting about Luigi's Mansion vs Mario is Missing, isn't it still important to say that Super Mario Bros. made Mario a legend and screwed Luigi into being a sidekick? 21:12, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know it says that, I put that there just last night >.> . If you want to be less melodramatic, don't do things like enigmatically saying "but this came at a cost" without explaining it, nor repeatedly saying in various ways how much It Sucks To Be Weegee. 20:15, 17 July 2017 (CT)

Common enemies and obstacles
First of all, I want to say good job on the work you've done on the "Common enemies and obstacles" chart on the Super Mario (series) page. But I have a suggestion, specifically surrounding the "common" part of the title. Enemies and obstacles like Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Thwomp, etc. are fine, as they appear frequently in the series. But do we really need to list Butterfly or Graffiti or other one time appearances? And do we really need to list every different variant of Goombas, Hammer Bros., and Cheep Cheep? Might as well include at the top. 21:29, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

I think they're fine, Alex95, but they have to be SUPER MARIO enemies, not Paper Mario enemies or some other crap. So Atomic Boos are a big no. 21:31, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That's not what I meant. The list is going too in depth on the amount of enemies being listed, to the point where it seems excessive. A "Related enemies/obstacles:" line underneath the enemy could work. 21:34, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm including enemies that are massively common within one game. Because a newcomer to the series could see any one of them at numerous occasions and be curious. Especially with enemies like Gooble and other Sunshine-one shots that appear quite frequently within it (especially the grafitti itself, given that the goop generators and force fields are outright alive). Butterfly was added primarily because it was common in SM64, but few people actually know of its destructive (and quite frankly hilarious) defense mechanism. However, I'd understand if the list were moved to its own page, with it being linked to the main SMB series page.
 * I get what it's going for, listing the enemies in the main Super Mario series. In that case, should the header instead be changed to simply "Enemies and obstacles"? 21:45, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Possibly, but I don't want it to go to the depth of including every one-game one-appearance enemy from Super Mario Land 2, which a title like that could lead to. Perhaps "Notable Enemies and Obstacles"? 20:47, 17 July 2017
 * I still feel like the table could use some more thought, but how it is now, "common" isn't really the right word to use now. "Notable" sounds good. 21:50, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

Admins have decided that the table needs to contain only the common enemies seen throughout the Super Mario series, not any of the one-shots. The separate page itself has already been deleted. 15:58, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Proposals
Just a heads up, when making proposals, be sure to add above the proposal so it is categorized under Category:Unresolved talk page proposals and the deadline is added. Additionally, the proposal should be added to the list of TPPs on the Proposals page. 17:21, 18 July 2017 (EDT)
 * OK, I was looking under "Proposals" under Community to the left and hadn't seen that part. I do now, it was in a different section. 16:23, 18 July 2017 (CT)

Mario's Time Machine
To be honest, have not played the NES version of Mario's Time Machine at all, partially because I'm already working with the SNES and PC versions and mostly because I didn't realize that it had several points in common with the other version. Thank you very much for filling in the gaps! I'll try to pick up the game myself at some point so that you won't need to scurry behind me anymore. 16:06, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Thanks, it's been a long time since I played it, but I remember a few things about it. 13:09, 19 July 2017 (CT)

RE: Coverage
This discussion web is going to get confusing. I suggest following my talk page or, preferably the latter. I was hoping to keep this between Alex95 and me. Doesn't look like it. -- 18:48, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Probably because what's going on is such a horrific departure from the MarioWiki I've known and loved for nearly a decade. I'm going to defend what I think is right quite staunchly on this. 17:58, 19 July 2017 (CT)

HEY, DOC! You're not alone! I agree with you strongly! I've got your back! 19:02, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Thank you :) 18:03, 19 July 2017 (CT)

2D, 2.5D, 3D
Just because it's a 2D game with 3D graphics doesn't make it a 2.5D game. The term is used for games like Super Smash Bros. or Yoshi's Story, where the player is limited to four directions, but the camera is angled to show a wider plane. New Super Mario Bros. games do not do that. 19:22, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Actually. there is no clear-cut definition. It typically refers to 3D graphics on a 2D plane, be they models or prerendered, like in DKC, or 2D graphics on a 3D plane, like in mode 7 based games, like Super Mario Kart. 18:24, 19 July 2017
 * You just gave yourself some perfect examples to the contrary. Donkey Kong Country has its camera angled where you can see the tops of the ground, rather than a ledge Super Mario Bros.-like. I think Super Mario Kart would also fall under 2.5D as it's not either 2D or 3D exactly. Either way, New Super Mario Bros. doesn't look like those. 19:27, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I was just going by the Mario series >.> Sonic 4 and Sonic Rush are other examples. Klonoa games are another example, even the Gameboy Advance ones. Paper Jam is an example. All the NSMB games are examples. There is no clear-cut definition; it's a mixture of 2D and 3D. 18:29, 19 July 2017
 * Wikipedia says that 2.5D are visuals with angled three graphics, like Kirby 64 and again Super Smash Bros. ...Yet goes on to say games with 3D graphics in a 2D plane are considered 2.5D as well, even listing games like New Super Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong Country in the same category. I don't get it, but I guess I'll go with it. 19:36, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It's pretty easy to understand. If it's kind of 2D and kind of 3D at the same time, it's 2.5D. It desn't matter in what way it is on either of them, it's really just a generic term. 18:54, 19 July 2017

Super Mario series debunked
Hey man, I want to say, you've done a hell of an amazing job with the "Common and notable enemies in the Super Mario series" project. You really deserve to be an administrator just for that. And as before, I hope I helped you out a lot. That thing was AWESOME! 20:44, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Heh, thanks. It'll probably get trimmed, but if it does, I can at least still look at it in the history. 19:46, 19 July 2017 (CT)

RE: Coverage
On 's talk page, you said:

Thank you for ending that.

I'm kind of confused why you said that. Did you think I was doing something wrong? It was a civil discussion that didn't result in bad behavior but rather a disagreement. I'm sure that felt the same way. Hope to clarify that. -- 23:41, 19 July 2017 (EDT)
 * What you were suggesting was rather upsetting, I myself actually did find out about a lot of other franchises thanks to this site's coverage. A main reason this site needs that much coverage? Number one, almost all those other franchises are part of the Mario Universe or owe their existence to Mario, and number two, of the franchises in crossovers like Smash Bros., Mario is the most popular and expansive. Would have been far preferable if the discussion had never happened in the first place. 22:44, 19 July 2017 (CT)
 * Actually, Mario owes DK because Donkey Kong (game) was the first game, as I pointed out in my talk page, but that's besides the point. I never considered to be the ultimate Nintendo wiki, which is what I think you are suggesting. I would leave that up to the Wikis participating in NIWA and Nintendo Wiki. No doubt Mario had an impact on Nintendo's existence. Just don't be afraid of disagreement. It's perfectly OK to have discussions like the one you participated in. Happens here all the time. As long as it doesn't result in bad behavior, everything said is fair game. -- 00:07, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Template:MTM
About the recent template you just made... I was already working on it. It's still incomplete, as I'm adding to it as I progress through the game, and I didn't want to create it with so much missing information. I'm not mad at you or anything, and I really should have made it myself a long one ago, just wanted to explain things. I'm on mobile now and I really need to get some sleep soon, so I won't be able to quickly respond to anything, but I do have one concern about the template: among the locations you listed was "Kitty Hawk". Obviously, in real life, that was the location of the Wright Brothers' monumental flight, but in-game, I don't think that the location that Mario visits is ever specifically called "Kitty Hawk". Who knows, maybe for one day the Brothers' plane was in another town for a couple of days and that's when Mario time travels there. It's unlikely, obviously, but to say that it's definitely Kitty Hawk is technically speculation. 01:29, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * If memory serves me right, it physically looked like Kitty Hawk. 00:31, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Also, looking at your templates, Paradise isn't in the NES version. Bowser just kinda runs off. 00:33, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Also, I think one of the message blocks says it's Kitty Hawk. 00:36, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I just recently went through the game myself, but I'm really sleepy, so I'm likely not remembering it properly. Another thing, though, with the "treasures": in-game, they're only called by a short name. It's not the "Olympic Torch", it's just a "Torch", and it's not "Armstrong's US Flag", it's just a "Flag". The wiki tends to be strict about names, and when the name of each object is spelled out as Mario picks them up, there's not much wiggle room. 01:46, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Yes, but the Current "Flag" article was solely about Ghandi's. I was actually going by the names listed in the main article. 00:47, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * The Gandhi flag article can have its identifier moved to something that would allow the US flag to also have an article without issue. Though names are strict, identifiers can be created and changed as needed. 01:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Really, all I can say is, you shoulda told me in your previous message, when it became clear I was interested in the series. I in no way blame you, but I had no idea "in-progress" things were even a thing, otherwise that's where I'd have kept my enemy thing perhaps indefinitely. 01:03, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * Nah, it's totally my fault. If I realized that you were also working on a template, I would have mentioned my own work ASAP. I should have definitely made that stuff more public. 02:09, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * TBH I made mine just within the last hour or so by copypasting the NSMB template and heavily editing it...though it's the first template I made that was more than just copypasting and deleting parts of the result, like the Spike one I made out of the misc. Koopas one...though I change the color on it blunderingly, but effectively... 01:15, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm pretty sure that everyone makes templates through copy and pasting. It's easier than making it from scratch, and the code's freely available for use. Personally, that's how I've always done it. So long as you don't leave any traces of the old template behind (which I may have done at one point...), it's all good. 02:21, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I actually mainly made this because of how much you were working on this game, I wanted to help some more ^-^;; 01:27, 20 July 2017 (CT)
 * I sincerely appreciate any help that you can offer, honest. The template puts me in a bit of an odd position, as early on, I had actually planned on splitting the NES and SNES versions of the game into separate articles, but now that I'm seeing how few elements the NES version has, plus the number of points in common between the versions, I'll likely need to rethink that. 02:34, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I ended up making a few changes the template. Besides adding in some missing stuff like Aristotle or Independence Hall, the most notable changes that I did were merging the "Protagonists" and "Historical Characters" headers into one "Characters" header, and I changed the "Historical Locations" header to simply "Locations". There were only two protagonists in the first place, and Yoshi does so little that I'm hesitant to even call him a protagonist. Besides, this way it won't be necessary to place legitimate characters and locations like Paradise and Bowser's mother into a miscellaneous section. I also want to change the item sections in some way, mostly to work in the non-important items, but also because there's a lot of redundancy between the SNES and PC sections. Ideally, we'd mark the version-exclusive stuff with some sort of symbol ( is a good example of this), but at the same time, there's also overlap. There are some things that only appear in the PC version, some (read: a lot) of things that appear in the SNES and PC versions but not the NES version, and at least one element that appears in the NES and PC versions while skipping the SNES version. Trying to have different symbols for each scenario would be too confusing and Not Good, but leaving things as is would be too redundant and Not Good. Maybe it would be best to split the NES version, after all... 14:34, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I've finally filled my mock-up template of the SNES/PC version with every possible element. I've imported what I can to the existing template (mostly characters and locations), but the items are still an issue. Besides the redundancy I mentioned before, there's also no neat place to insert the non-"artifact" subjects, like Rat Trap or Backscratcher. I'm still on the fence about splitting the template; do you have any thoughts on how the template could be reworked?  12:06, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Simple. An "Other Items" section. 15:44, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * That still doesn't resolve the issue of redundancy. Again, it's common practice to distinguish new features with an asterisk, not by creating different sections for every version that result in reams of elements appearing multiple times. 18:11, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I suppose that could work, especially since SNES's items are all in MS-DOS verison, but not vice-versa, and having them together but not doing that could lead to confusion for owners of SNES version...But I think it would probably still be best to have NES and other share a template. We could always use that cross symbol to denote NES-only elements... 17:14, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * What about Koopa Troopa? They appear in both the NES and PC versions, but not the SNES version. 18:17, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It would get an asterisk for MS-DOS and a cross for NES, I suppose? 17:20, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * If the symbol is supposed to denote that a given element only appears in one game, then having two symbols for the same element just seems odd. 18:26, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I would think of it working more like a Venn diagram in that regard. 17:33, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * I can see that. Another point, if you don't mind continuing this discussion: what about having all of the items, "treasure" and non-treasure, in one section, like in my mock-up? There's precedence for splitting items that flat-out act differently, like in, but every item in MTM is basically the same. 18:53, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That'll probably do. The only reason I had them split in the first place is due to the differences in importance and version, the latter of which was because it was easier for me to make and could easily be remedied with the symbol usage, and the former of which I didn't know was an issue, because I didn't know there were any non-artifact items in the non-NES versions aside from Mushrooms. 17:57, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * All right, I think all of my issues have been settled. Do you want to take care of adding the info, or should I? 19:15, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * You should probably do it, as I am unfamiliar with most of the other items. Just make sure nothing gets lost, I'll double check afterwards. 18:37, 22 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm on it. 19:46, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Done! Some of the item names are wonky because of different items sharing names, but I'll work on them as I go along. Now I just need to make the 70+ articles on that template. I am ecstatic. 20:34, 22 July 2017 (EDT)
 * So, um, I'm on my phone right now, and as it turns out, the crosses I used for symbols in the template become a lot more... biblical. I'll try to swap them for another symbol tomorrow. 01:08, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * What? It's sacred to me :\. 01:14, 23 July 2017 (CT)
 * So sorry to bother you again, but I wanted to discuss the inclusion of Neil Armstrong. The sprite of the astronaut is clearly just an edited version of Mario's sprite, and to me, it looks ambiguous enough that no amount of comparing it to real photos could let us draw a definite conclusion. Anything more would veer too far into speculation, in my opinion. Besides, the hint blocks don't give any indication as to the astronaut's identity, and talking to him doesn't reveal anything (unlike with Shakespeare who definitely confirms that he is himself). Maybe the astronaut's actually Collins who snuck onto the Moon for a few seconds. That's astronomically unlikely, I know, but if we don't have any concrete evidence as to the identity of the astronaut, we can't say anything definitive about him. 15:27, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I either didn't realize you could talk to NPCs in that game or I had forgotten o.o . In any case, if you want to remove it, go ahead, but remember, Neil Armstrong is the one that people actually remember as the "first man on the moon," and Buzz Aldrin is forgotten by a surprisingly large number of people... 19:24, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'm well aware of that, but as long as there's ambiguity, we really shouldn't speculate, especially when there are two possible and equally probable answers. Also, the only reason I found out you can talk to them is because I happened to read the manual. Pressing start while in front of an NPC lets you "talk" to them, but really they're glorified hint blocks. They're also really annoying to talk to when they run off-screen in and instant and are instantly defeated if they touch an enemy no matter how much you try to use save states... Bleh -_- 21:01, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Pretty sure they respawn if you go off-screen again, but enemies don't.... 20:04, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes the enemy respawns, sometimes they don't. I've found that running to the right doesn't cause the NPC to spawn (at least with Shakespeare and the astronaut), but moving slowly to the right will often result in you being too slow to save them from the enemy. Sometimes. Maybe. It's all up to the whim of this wonderful game. 21:06, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Eh, I still have a lot of nice memories from when I was young and played it technically-illegally on online emulators because I didn't know better, but what are you gonna do? At least it had a good Bowser battle, unlike NES MiM, which I'm still not convinced was Bowser at all. Now as for all the intricacies of how it works, I can't really remember, but I do have some sprites I have collected from some website I could upload as .GIFs. 20:10, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Maybe I'm just more cynical partially because the SNES/PC games have worn me down and because I'm playing this solely for the wiki and every time a character introduces themselves, I know that I'm going to make an article for them. Whenever I can, I do take the time to research background information and compare what's in the game to what happened in reality (at least for the SNES/PC games, because the term "artistic liberties" is putting it lightly). Even with mundane items like the paint can, I ended up looking into when modern paint cans were first created. This is completely and utterly a self-inflicted problem, I know, but that doesn't mean I can't try to soften the impact. In any case, if those images are still in good quality, they'd be handy for the wiki (although only upload them as .GIFs if they're animated). Incidentally, the "unnamed" samurai also says this, so that's one more article for the list... 21:20, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * They are currently in a PNG format in a document and look as they do in the game, with all the poses, and I have unFREEZ to animate them. The colors may not be raw, but that's hardly anything new for the wiki, judging by the list of enemies for Wario Land 3 and Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3... 20:25, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * Pardon, but I don't quite understand the comparison to WL3 and SML3. Is there something wrong with the images for them on the wiki? 21:29, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Colors aren't as the appear in game. For WL3, the Red Prince Froggy is doing a pose only the Grey Prince Froggy ever does, and the white area on Fire Robota should be yellow. As for WL:SML3, some of the sprites use the greenish palette that the GB screen looks like it uses, but does not internally use, such as for Maizo. I also changed Yoritomo to Minamoto no Yoritomo, after doing some research and concluding that's the full name. 20:32, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * I'll defer to your judgement when it comes to the WL games, then. I also looked into Yoritomo, but I only added "Yoritomo" as a link because I was thinking of Duke of Alencon, where their full name isn't given in-game despite them obviously having one so you roll with what you got. On the other hand, I also linked to several characters that aren't given names at all in-game but obviously have them in real life (mostly the wives of historical figures), so you're not wrong in using his full name for the link. As far as I know, there isn't another example of this situation across the entire wiki, so we're creating the rules as we go on. 21:43, 24 July 2017 (EDT)

RE: Big Boo vs. Paper Big Boo
I have played Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. Let's keep this in the relevant thread. -- 04:39, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Frankly, Atomic Boo is just one big mess where Naming made things more complicated than it needed to be. I've had a few debates with other users with the policy, and from what I can gather, the impression is that the policy as infallible or is a de facto standard. I tried to legitimize some exceptions to the rules that made more sense, but failed. The policy also has issues with other users liking to split articles for very minor differences between enemies from different installments. Originally, Atomic Boo was its own enemy, then Paper Mario: Sticker Star was released, and now the article is being discussed for merging by taking TTYD and SPM with it. The policy is good, but can cause a few quirks with article naming the longer that keeps covering Mario content, which keeps it from being great. I do not specialize in article creation but rather screenshot, sprite, and some 3D render supply, so it's going to take someone way more familiar to re-evaluate the policy. I speak from article searching experience. -- 02:14, 26 July 2017 (EDT)

English names
I wouldn't be surprised if several of the entries on my list were outdated, but at the same time, Pokey Sprout isn't one of them. It's still being listed on the Pokey Head page as an official name without a citation, so it'll stay there until a source is found or it can be reasonably concluded that it is not an official name. 17:23, 20 July 2017 (EDT)

Vandals
Undoing vandalism is all well and good, but I recommend you not say anything in your edit summaries when doing so. It can antagonize the vandal, and ultimately give him the attention they're looking for. It can also lead to some faults on your end as well sometimes. And there's no need to give a warning to a vandal if what they're doing is blatantly vandalism and they aren't going to listen to reason. Just a heads up. 12:29, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The reason I did that is because at first, I wasn't sure if they actually trying to vandalize or not, since "Paper Mario 64" is often used as an alternate name, thought typically with actual spacing. It quickly became clear that they were indeed attempting to vandalize, though, but I wanted to give them a bit of benefit of the doubt in spite of the rash of vandalisms that happened last night. 14:46, 21 July 2017 (CT)

Phew. Thanks for stepping up and shutting that vandal down, man. I probably could have done it, but I was sleeping at the time. 15:49, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

RE:Mario Boards Presentation
Yes, this is an annual thing. We are currently on the tenth annual awards, so if you couldn't make it this year, there is always next year! As for the custom sprites, you can always show them off in the forum's Fan Creations board any time you want to. 17:02, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

Bird
I had reverted your coverage in the bird article, as those instances of birds you mentioned violate the generic subjects policy we set up. We cover Super Mario Sunshine birds because they serve a gameplay purpose in that game, with them dropping items depending on the color. 16:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Furthermore, if you want to add the bird that steals your artifact in Mario's Time Machine, feel free to create an article for it. Bird (species) currently serves as a double redirect I'd like to take care of, so it would be great if it got changed to Bird (Mario's Time Machine). 16:36, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * An easier solution would just be to have the "Bird (species)" article as it was. There is no logical reason to have them separate. They typically wait around and fly away when you get close to them. Butterflies are lumped together, even though some of them turn into explosive black spheres, some can be eaten for items, some can be touched for star bits, some are caught for minigames and some serve no purpose. That's far more variation than with the birds. This split shouldn't have happened and that is a fact. I'm not mad because I'm the one who rewrote the page and you did that, I'm annoyed that it was split even though it logically shouldn't have. 17:05, 21 July 2017 (CT)
 * Yeah, well, the Mario is Missing birds sere a gameplay purpose as well, and whatever policy was violated there is certainly violated by the Butterfly page. And the 3D Land birds don't deserve their own articles if the others don't. 16:57, 21 July 2017 (CT)
 * The reason I've created an article about the bird in Super Mario 3D Land being separate than the one in the Super Mario Sunshine article is that they have an extremely consistent design across many different games, which is most certainly deliberate (unlike the butterflies, which don't have deliberately consistent designs) and to be distinguished from the ones that appear in Super Mario Sunshine, and also the reason they hadn't received an article before is that, yes, they're ambient elements, but their appearance in Mario Sports Superstars serves a gameplay purpose. Also, if the butterfly article has issues with generic subject coverage, then the article should be rewritten to meet the criteria established rather than use it as a guideline to further continue misusing policy. 18:22, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

DKJR
Category:Forms specifies that it's to be used with changes that appear "when power-ups or items are used". It's definitely been misused in some places, but there are also fringe cases like Dino Rhino, Hoopster, and other enemies, who are tagged with the category because the SMB3 Kings were transformed into them by their magic wands (one of the kings also transforms into DK Junior). I still don't know why Hammer Bro and Piranha Plant are tagged, though... 19:33, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * They should probably be left, due to the capture feature of SMO... 19:06, 23 July 2017
 * But Mario doesn't transform into the enemies, he just takes control of existing ones. It's like he has a Pokeball. 20:12, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

Koopalings
For which image? 22:03, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The first. As for the torches, that's Roy, Ludwig, Larry. nd the statues, the top row is Wendy (or perhaps Bowser), Roy, Ludwig (or perhaps Wendy), Wendy, second is Ludwig, Iggy, Roy, Iggy, third is Ludwig, Wendy. 21:08, 23 July 2017.
 * Actually, the one on the right in the first image has Larry's face and Lemmy or Iggy's hair. Leave it to a third party to mess things up like that. But Lemmy had fangs in SMW... 21:10, 23 July 2017.
 * And this is why I'm asking Mr. Wu. Not that your help isn't appreciated, but he definitely seems like my best bet when it comes to anything Koopaling-related. 22:12, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The thing is, the best bet really regards what Koopalings appeared in each version of the game. The fact that they mixed some attributes makes it annoying, but the rainbow hair and the fact that it's not Iggy makes it a safe bet to say it's Lemmy. 21:13, 23 July 2017.
 * In any case, I've already asked him. 22:20, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

EPIC FAIL!
AW, MAN! The Super Mario enemy project went for NOTHING! Dang it! It was an awesome project and full effort, though. It's a pity it game-overed. 23:08, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Well...not exactly... 01:11, 24 July 2017 (CT)
 * It's looking good so far. Still some things that need adjusted, like when info or images refer to games outside of the main Super Mario series. 10:51, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The (arbitrary) order of importance I used was: High-Quality 3D Main Series image->High Quality 3D Spinoff image->Medium Quality 3D image (used for when there's enough pictures the blurriness doesn't show)->2D Image->Screenshot. I also preferred one I felt had the most "personality" over say, age, like with the Chain Chomp. 18:46, 26 July 2017 (CT)
 * Okay, that's fine. List should really only have one image, though, and should be an image from the actual main series. Additional images are better left to the article itself. 19:50, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * It's also a general rule that the most recent image is used for a given subject (unless it has outside elements, like characters in karts, unless that's the only artwork available for them). The wiki hasn't tried deciding if an image with personality should take priority. 19:53, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I just think an image of a Chain Chomp charging or getting ready to charge should take priority over a Chain Chomp simply existing, even if that's the most recent, because it tells more about it. The alt images I showed were primarily alternate designs from 64 and Sunshine, again with the intent of helping new users identify them if they played those games and otherwise have little to no knowledge on the subject. And Hammer Bros. has two for fairly obvious reasons. 19:16, 26 July 2017 (CT)

New Super Mario Bros music is awesome
What do you think of the New Super Mario Bros games' music these days? A lot of people say it is overused, but I'll say it right now, the complete soundtrack of New Super Mario Bros Wii, New Super Mario Bros 2, and New Super Mario Bros U is one of the best soundtracks in the entire Mario franchise. New Super Mario Bros's soundtrack is just below. 23:59, 26 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I personally prefer the DS version's Castle, Desert, and Underwater themes. The rest are about the same, but Wii and on have better final boss music. 23:02, 26 July 2017

Editing Standards
Sorry to bother you, but there's something you should keep in mind as you're editing: articles are to be written in present tense. For example, "jumping on their backs repeatedly will give him five more coins" is future tense, as saying that someone will do something means that the event is only happening in the future. In the example above, "jumping on their backs repeatedly gives him five coins" works fine. 19:44, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
 * I know. I just forgot there XD. 21:04, 28 July 2017
 * Ah, beg your pardon then. Actually, while I have your attention, do you prefer being called "Doc" for short or "Schmeltwick" for short? 22:50, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Doc or Docky is good. 23:56, 28 July 2017

For the record, I call him Doc, and he has no problem with it. 23:05, 28 July 2017 (EDT)

RE:Meowth
Okay, you're right on the nose, but Meowth does have a gem on its head and is a different species altogether. We've noted connections to the Pokémon franchise before between characters and enemies, but we've always marked them as unintentional unless proven otherwise. 22:04, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Coin, gem, whatever. I knew what I was thinking about, it's a shiny object anyway.
 * Yes, they do look similar, but again, it's nothing really worth noting. I've seen edits that claimed, say, Koopa Troopas look similar to Squirtles. Pokémon is full of creatures, you could make a connection to just about any of them between it and Mario. 22:10, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Princess Shroob DEBUNKED
Doc, she DOES speak English. Remember in Gritzy Caves, after you beat Petey Piranha and go into the second-to-last room of the area? Yep, while you're there, the disguised Princess Shroob says just what you'd normally expect from Princess Peach, and in the exact same way. The Mario Bros think it's Peach, and they open the door and find her.
 * I don't recall that. I remember the real Peach appearing in Gritzy Caves for a bit at the stadium, and Shroob basically miming everything. Besides, how would she talk with a glop covering the entire face? Only times I remember Shroob speaking is whenever she talks in their language, and at the very end, speaking with subtitles. And you say this was behind a locked door? Coulda been the real Peach then, then Shroob pulled a switch in the interim. Or a recording. If she could speak English, she'd have done it at the end instead of speaking with subtitles. 16:27, 31 August 2017 (CT)

Wait, so you're telling me that while the Mario Bros were one room away from Princess Peach in Gritzy Caves and she was behind a locked door, Peach yelled for the Mario Bros to help her, and just in time, Shroob pulled a switch and disguised herself as Peach? That's just bull. That had to have been Princess Shroob the whole way. The game even implies it! 17:35, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * That's the implication I got from it. If she could speak then, she'd do it the entire time. And don't call other people's interpretations "bull." That's a fast path towards penalization. 16:38, 31 August 2017 (CT)

Sorry for that, I wasn't trying to insult you. I just considered the idea preposterous...unless...well, maybe. But I think the current story is that Princess Shroob was behind the locked door all that time, because I don't know how the Shroobs could have pulled that off that fast, and under the Mario Bros' nose too while at it. So that means Princess Shroob must have spoken English. I might want to see what Alex95 thinks about this. 17:42, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

"the Hotel Mario of the Mario Kart series"
Harsh, but I don't get the comparison. Hotel Mario is a standalone project made entirely by a third-party, and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is a revamped version of one of Nintendo's own games. Are you just saying that they're both bad games? 18:52, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * 8 DX makes Mario Kart: Super Circuit, with its abysmal physics and GBA-resolution, look like Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door in comparison simply due to its conception. Instead of having a new MK game as usual, Mario Kart 8 DX adds about five new characters and a functioning battle mode to MK8, and vaguely tweaks the graphics. Thing is, I have the Wii U game and all of its DLC, and I don't think it should cost 60 USD for me to get 5 new characters (none of which are Petey Piranha) and a Battle Mode I'll never use, which would be wonderful as DLC for the original. I think that they should have it so that if the Nintendo profile confirms ownership of the original and DLC, the online price of DX should be bounced down to say, 15 USD. Do they do that? I don't think so. Not to mention the "paid internet" the Switch has, as opposed to the free internet the 3DS and Wii U have. I know the other companies do it for a steeper price, but I'd expect that from them, since Microsoft gaming has been a terrible company from the get-go, with no exclusives other than what they tortured RareWare into making, and Sony has been bad since the PS2 was discontinued and they decided to focus on grimdark bilge. I consider MK8DX to be one in a series of recent bad choices by Nintendo. They are as follows:
 * -The existence of Twilight Princess DX (which was solely created as a way to shoehorn Wolf Link into BotW);
 * -Making Breath of the Wild into a non-formulaic Elder Scrolls-esque game with an absurd amount of restrictions (no recovery hearts; AoL was fine, you didn't need to do it again!) and having the forest creatures be the ugly Koroks instead of the adorable Kikwis (which are established as natural hiders) and messing up the Rito's position of "only half-human race in Hyrule." Not to mention most of the "innovative" things in it were actually lifted straight from Skyward Sword, which few people played due to the glitch-ridden Skyrim being released around the same time. From what I've seen, BotW is an acclaimed hot mess.
 * -Discontinuing the NES Classic, I have a controller for it, but not it itself. It apparently works for the Wii U, thankfully. Still, jerk move, Nintendo.
 * -C&D'ing "Another Metroid 2 Remake" only to show off their own. I don't particularly like Metroid, and the creator of the franchise apparently didn't want it C&D'd, but still, that was someone's many-year-long project. He supports the new Nintendo game, but still, hateful move there, Nintendo.
 * -Heck, C&D'ing anything that isn't a straight port, really. You guys should be flattered.
 * -Changing so much in MM3D, while admittedly a bit earlier, was still bad. They deliberately left in as much as the original for OoT, but for MM (which I consider the best video game in history), they changed an enormous amount. Yes, I'm looking at you Molgera fight. And you, Zora Link swimming. Bad.
 * Really, ever since Iwata died, there's been a lot of bad decisions, although a few were made before that. So that's my ramble for the day. 18:13, 31 July 2017.
 * Clearly, you have stronger feelings on the subject than me (although the BotW stuff sounds like nitpicking to my untrained ears). 19:24, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Whatever. Also, Blockhoppers are listed as robots due the their robotic appearance (their eyes and legs) and the clanking and ticking noises they make. 18:30, 31 July 2017.
 * That seems tenuous to me - I thought they just looked like Black Mages in blocks - but I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. 19:34, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
 * Edit: Just saw your Block description. I like it, but I'm not sure about the inclusion of enemies. Neither Block nor Template:Blocks cover any enemies on them. 19:35, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

What? Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is AWESOME! It's even better than MK8! I don't get what's bad about it at all. I mean, I read your explanation above, Doc, but that makes MK8 DX EVEN BETTER! How is that bad? Sorry if I'm a little edgy, I just haven't heard a person say that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is actually bad, or even that it approaches the level of Hotel Mario. 19:27, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it adds about $14 worth of things to MK8, and does nothing else. But it's $60 to get basically a tiny expansion pack for some inconsequential characters, slightly tweaked graphics, and a legitimate battle mode I'd never use. I'd forgive it all if they offered a discount for the online purchase for owners of MK8 original, but as it stands it is not worth anywhere close to $60 for an owner of MK8 original and its DLC. 18:34, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Are you sure about that, my boy? I would DEFINITELY pay the extra money JUST to get the best Mario Kart game ever. But that's just me. And plus, how are King Boo, Bowser Jr, and Dry Bones inconsequential? Every character in Mario Kart other than (GRRRRR!) Pink Gold Peach contributes a lot to the series. And why would you not use a legitimate battle mode? Is it just you, I guess? I'm really sorry, but I hate it when Mario fans get so picky and nostalgia-blind that they basically pick apart every new game, or just new thing, or decision that Nintendo makes. It just annoys me to the last degree, especially when I consider games like Mario Party 9 and Mario & Luigi: Dream Team, or even Super Paper Mario of all games to be actually good, although I do consider the original, traditional formulas to make for better products. I'm sorry Doc, you're a great friend and all, and I know you have your opinion, but I get annoyed when fans just get picky like that. 19:47, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * It's not worth $60 to get $14 worth of stuff. And by "inconsequential," I mean "not Petey Piranha," and this isn't a "new" thing, it's a game released a few years ago with 7 new things added for $60! They coulda just DLC'd it so people would buy the original, instead of basically brushing off owners of the original. I find it to be an outrage. If they wanted to remake a Mario Kart game, it shoulda been Super Circuit, it needs it. As for your talking about Mario Party, I don't care. I don't have people to play with, except my little brother who hates multiplayer. That's also why I don't care for battle mode; no one to play with, and no actual reward. And about "picky," I consider SMB2 (US) and Sunshine to be great games, even if they shook up the formula a lot. The same goes for Zelda 2 (but currently not BotW). But, my original point stands, as an owner of the original, I don't think it's fair to shell out $60 for what amounts to almost the exact same thing. Within 3-4 years, even! 19:00, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Hmmm...OK, I'm starting to see what you think. Battle mode is a waste because you can't play multiplayer and there's no reward, and you must really like Petey Piranha, which I can understand and relate to, because I like Petey too. But the thing is, he's not the only character that matters; in fact, he's just one out of a whole bunch of them. And plus, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe IS a unique thing. Of COURSE it's going to be a port of Mario Kart 8, so I think that should have been expected. But at the same time, it just brings so many new ideas, and just these little details that polish it to absolute perfection. And by "picky", I know people who are so nostalgic with the Nintendo 64, they even consider Mario Party THREE to be the LAST GOOD MARIO PARTY (I'm not yelling, or even mad, I'm just trying to emphasize my point). There are some people who are so driven with rage and are so paranoid, that they think that Nintendo's games in every series are declining, EVER SINCE FROM THE FIRST TO THE MOST RECENT. Personally, I don't like that, and I consider it just crazy and stupid. For example, some fans might think Superstar Saga is the absolute best, Partners in Time is good, but worse than the first, Bowser's Inside Story is mediocre, and Dream Team is complete garbage (just an example). It's just wrong, and to see that extend to EVERY series, even those that are doing exceptionally well to this day, makes me feel edgy, and even a little mad at the worst times. So just trying to clear the air, don't get angry at me. But I do think it's a little shaky to consider a game bad for paying more for almost the same content, because I think Mario Kart 8 Deluxe 1-upped the phenomenal original by a mile. 20:24, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Still not worth $60 additional dollars. That's my entire problem with it, is that it's too much to charge owners of the original. As for Mario Party, I played about 2 hours of 7 at my cousins' house when I was like 7-8? And a few hours of DS on a friend's DS when I was like 14? I don't have experience with it. Superstar Saga I haven't played, though I resent how overused the wonky graphics are in fanworks. 19:30, 1 August 2017 (CT)

Taxonomical Arguments
Fair enough, then. 15:21, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * If you're deleting all of those categories from the templates, are you also going to be the one adding them back to the necessary pages? 16:46, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I suppose so, but many have overlap. Should it be alphabetical for all media portrayals listed, mixing games and cartoons together? 15:48, 1 August 2017 (CT)
 * The general order is outlined here. Simply put, species at the very top, misc. categories (jobs, etc.) after that in order of most important to least, then every piece of media comes after that. Books, games, cartoons, and the rest all get treated equally, and it's entirely in alphabetical order. 16:53, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door edit
DUDE! Kolorado was a student of Professor Frankly! Why did you remove that? That was useful! 22:15, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Edit: Sorry, I just now realized you understood what that meant. I take that back. 22:18, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Super Mario 64 DS is the BEST!
What do you think of Super Mario 64 DS? I think it's one of the best Mario games ever, even better than the original game. I love it. 22:32, 1 August 2017 (EDT)
 * It's the reason I got a 3DS to begin with. I never had a previous-model DS, but I wanted a later one....Wanting it was a huge motivation to get Mario games in the first place, as I had grown up with a PS2. Lots of games on it, though. 21:35, 1 August 2017

Yoshi edit
We just had this discussion. That's got to be Yoshi the character, he literally appears right in the game. And this time, he's actually the green Yoshi you play as throughout the game. Come on now, if the article literally says Yoshi the character debuted in the game, then we have to include him. How is that speculation? We KNOW Yoshi the character is actually a character in this game. 18:09, 2 August 2017 (EDT)
 * He's already there, above the "colored Yoshis" section. Were you just not paying attention? 17:11, 2 August 2017 (CT)

Aw, s**t. I'm sorry about that. I wasn't paying attention. But anyway, can you say for absolute certainty that the first Yoshi in Super Mario World is Yoshi? I hope so, because if not, then I think I'm starting to doubt what I've known about Mario for a long time. 18:15, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

The most bizarrely well-known
I always hate when people use "odd", "strange", or "bizarre" to describe anything in an article. This is a series where people eat mushrooms and flowers to gain abilities, the main villain is a spiky turtle/ox that stands on two legs, the main hero is an Italian plumber from Brooklyn who never does any plumbing besides two games, and at one point he accepted a stolen book from an orphan in front of Charles Dickens' doorstep. Those words are completely meaningless here. You've done good work on the Koopa article, especially with all of the maintenance and clean-up. The one criticism I can offer is to not make so many edits to one page in rapid succession (it's one of those things the wiki doesn't like). If you can, try to preview your edits first. 20:11, 2 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I do that routinely, it's just that there's always another thing in a place I didn't notice, like the caption for the image at the beginning, for instance. Also, I often just edit by section, particularly when the section's so bad it'll take up a lot of the edit summary. 19:14, 2 August 2017
 * Imagine editing Mario or another huge article section-by-section. Plus, editing the article as a whole lets you see how images and headers wrap around text. As many snarky comments and extra clarification that you want to add, sometimes it's okay to just say "Added x section, did some clean-up". 20:20, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Bowser voice clips
Who voiced Bowser in the Nintendo 64, early GameCube games, and some rare DS games? It never says in any of the wiki's articles. 23:55, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Falling Star
Do you have any plans for Falling Star? I wrote down every instance of the ghosts being mentioned on the talk page, if that helps you in any way. 21:46, 3 August 2017 (EDT)
 * I'll get to that. I still have to finish getting the categories for the detranscluded templates, but I'm also busy preparing for college, which starts in less than 10 days.  20:48, 3 August 2017 (CT)
 * I get that. Registration for college is in a week, myself, and a lot of stuff's still up in the air. 21:55, 3 August 2017 (EDT)

Projects
I happened to take a look at your Projects page. Do you mind if I give my thoughts on a couple of the things you have there? 21:58, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Go ahead, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'll put much stock into any criticism, constructve or otherwise. I just moved into college, having it a bit rough emotionally. 21:08, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Mhm, I understand that. I don't want to harshly criticize what you have there or anything, but still, feel completely free to take everything I have to say here with a grain of salt: for the Eulipotyphla category, while I personally like the idea, the wiki had a push to make category names simpler and more convenient for readers, so I'm not sure if a technical name like "Eulipotyphla" would be easily accepted (totally on board with you, though!); for the Beanish template, I actually made a point of removing the Beanbean Kingdom enemies from that category (and I'm fairly certain that was based on a discussion, though I can't seem to find it at the moment), and having a species category that lists things that aren't a part of that species seems... weird to me. Barring the navigation templates that are modeled after the other species templates without covering species themselves, like, I can't think of another example that's close to what you have there. 22:18, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Note that "Beanish" isn't sited, and as such it's left rather ambiguous what exactly it refers to, especially with the massive variation regarding physical appearance the NPCs of Superstar Saga displayed. I took it to mean any bean-like creature, that is to say any beanish creature. IE the sentient beans of Beanbean. 21:27, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * I'd consider that to be too vague, especially with enemies like Sharpea or Troopea. They don't have anything that obviously and ties them to the other enemies besides a bit of green coloring, and I don't think that's strong enough to tie them to Queen Bean or Prince Peasley. Most members of a species have an obvious visual connection to one another, so I'm not entirely comfortable with something this ill-defined. 22:32, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Yet Lakitufo is still defined as a Shroob, for some reason. 21:33, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Yep, I don't like that template/category either. I kinda get also listing the "Shroobified" creatures alongside the proper Shroobs, especially since most of them have "Shroob" in their name, but Lakitufo is such an edge case that I'm tempted to remove it from the template right now. Same deal with Swiggler, being next to Shroobs doesn't automatically make you a Shroob (also, its intro paragraph calls it "a large, Shroob-created, bio-mechanical robot", and I want a citation for at least three of those words). 22:40, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * For the record, some of Swiggler's sprites clearly show plugs and sparks coming out of it, so there's that. Niiue (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Swiggler has Shroob-like eyes, so it has that going for it. Lakitufo always bothered me being included on their, I mean Piranha Planet is an alien in that game too, but it's not classified as a Shroob. Only reason I put Lakitufo on the template was because it's listed as one in other locations, and it uses Spiny Shroopas (which are what, Oerlikon Frogs?) as weapons. As for why the unused "Scoot Bloop" is listed as Shroobified, that really bothers me, as the only evidence of that is that it's in the data for Vim Factory. 22:12, 13 August 2017 (CT)
 * Also, Swiggler's Japanese name is a play on their version of Shroob, so it counts. 22:15, 13 August 2017 (CT)