MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/21



Replace Featured Images with the 'Shroom.
DELETED

What I am about to propose is that we put the FI on hiatus and replace the template on the Main Page with a 'Shroom template. The reason why is because there have been many proposals on altering the FI. And Tucayo made a very good point. Any more alters to the FI will put the FI on hiatus. And when I made an proposal on removing the Did You Know section, Tucayo suggested a Shroom template to be put on the Main Page. So I propose that we will replace the Featured Images with the Shroom.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|KS3}} Voting start: 22:32, 28 April 2010 Deadline: 23:59, 5 May 2010

Support

 * 1) per myself

Oppose

 * 1) - Per my past comments and my comment below.
 * 2) Per every single reason and every single comment throughtout all the FI-removal proposals that want to keep it.
 * 3) - Per me. Shroom will replace Community.

Comments
It has been decided between admins, and Steve aproved, that The 'Shroom will replace the Community box :)


 * How many times is this stupid thing going to come up?! The only reason that there are so many proposals for the alteration of the FIs is that people keep on bringing it up! How about we stop bringing this up. Anyways, if Tucayo is right, then this proposal sems pretty worthless now. Three or four of those proposals were made by you, for your information. Do you want the Featured Images to go on hiatus. Do you want the main page to be filled with mindless text. And don't say that the logo and ads count as pics because we've discussed this already. If I wanted to read all text and no pictures, I'd just plop open my U.S. Literature and U.S. History book and read.
 * Most of the proposals that you listed weren't for putting Featured Images on hiatus, so they don't apply. Counting this one, there are three proposals for getting rid of Featured Images; one by Time Q, two by you. Once voting starts, I'll just state every reason to keep it like with the past three proposals. And besides, your proposal is invalid, since Tucayo stated that The 'Shroom will replace the Community box.

Can we just delete this then?
 * I guess we can. Do you want to delete it, or should I do it?
 * Go ahead if you wish.

}}

Image Standard for "World" Articles
USE LEVEL SCREENSHOTS 0-10-0

I was breezing through the (lovely) "world"-type articles recently (World 8 (Super Mario Bros.), Mt. Teapot, World 5 (New Super Mario Bros.)), and I noticed two types of images used for levels in the articles. The first, seen to the side, shows the level in its entirety, sprite-mapper and all.

The second shows a simple screenshot of the game, in the level. Two examples can be seen to the side.

I propose that we make a standard to use one or the other in all world/level articles. Please note that this only applies to the images attached to the "level" sections of the "world" articles.

(Side note: this is not an attack on the work of any user; it was simply something I noticed while I browsed the wiki.)

{{Scroll box|content= Proposer: {{user|Bloc Partier}} Voting Start: 00:33, 28 April 2010 Deadline: 23:59, 5 May 2010

Use Image Type 2

 * 1) -- I believe this is more official-looking and less like a strategy guide. We are not a guide, and simply must give information about each level. A screenshot can easily be used to show a specific part of the level mentioned in the description. It also makes for a nicer compliment to the text, as it can easily be viewed without clicking on the image to see the whole of the level. Lastly, many spritemaps are made by non-wiki users who put their name on the map; this looks very unprofessional and is, if copyrighted, illegal.
 * 2) Per BP.
 * 3) Per F65.
 * 4) Per PB, my comment and also they are nicer to look at.
 * 5) The entire map layout looks like a real mess and it's as ugly as Baby Luigi's face. The other one, however, is basically more efficient and it doesn't look like it got screwed up and whatever.
 * 6) - Per BP and because nobody likes having to click on an image (and wait for it to load) and then having to click again to view it in full size just to find out what is going on in it. Readers should be able to see what's in an image while reading the article it is used in, which is simply not possible with giant images with impractical dimensions.
 * 7) - Having a standard is always a good thing. I choose this variant because I think it is more representative.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.

Comments
I don't see how this is going to work out. I think that the first image should be used in the infobox right now and the latter should be used in the level descriptions. Take the worlds of NSMB right now, they look perfectly fine and use both types of images.
 * What the NSMB articles use in the infoboxes are pictures of the map screens of the respective worlds. This is about maps of individual level layouts being used in the world articles rather than unmodified in-game screenshots (like the NSMB articles also use).--
 * D'oh. There goes me misunderstanding a proposal...again. I don't know, as long as the map images aren't stolen, I see no problem.

I think that both images can be used, one in infoboxes and the other one in the article, but as BP said, some of the full-level images may even be copyrighted, we don't want to use copyrighted content without permission, do we?

So the proposal is saying that we should have either a screenshot or a map for the images in all the world articles? If that's what it means, than I think we should have a map for the first image in all the world articles. Problem is, what if we can't find an image of the map?
 * The proposal is saying that the individual levels in the World articles should either consistently use screenshots from the respective level or complete layout maps of the levels. The first image (used in the world's infobox) could still be an overworld map in either case, if that's what you mean with "map"; as I understand the proposal, this is solely about the images used for the individual levels listed in a world article, as the articles are currently inconsistent on whether they use screenshots or layout maps to go with the level descriptions. If you mean the first level listed should have a complete layout and the rest only screenshots, I don't really understand how that would make sense.--
 * Oh I get it now. Thanks.
 * @Vellidragon: You've got it perfect. I edited the proposal to make it more clear.

So...to put it nice and short...you are proposing the images in the article all be of one type. The other ones can still be located in the gallery section, correct?
 * Well... I don't like the copyrighted level maps on the articles at all. I would propose to delete them entirely. However, this proposal does not discuss what to do with the leftover images, so I suppose that they would, indeed, be put in a gallery at the bottom.

I like how type 2 give you a better idea of how the level looks "in play", but the maps could be useful. Although, we aren't a walkthough site. Is there possible a walkthrough site in need of some nice maps? It would be a shame to remove them and make them inaccessible (and isn't being an encyclopedia all about making information accessible?), but I can see how they don't belong. I guess, perhaps, if the images were "donated" to a separate level maps project we could just get rid of them.
 * Technically, we don't even own the maps. They've mostly been made by other people not even affiliated with this site who made the maps for places like vgatlas.com. We don't have the power to "donate" them, like you say, and they are still accessible on the mapping sites, as far as I know. We're not removing any original information by removing the maps.
 * I didn't think the wiki did really "own" them at all (which is why I didn't bother asking for permission to archive them). I guess there are enough map sites already, and game guides are pretty accessible and often include maps anyway. Although I think there are a few cases where maps might show something better to show an area, this is mostly for larger areas in the RPG games and not the platforming games this proposal seems to be dealing with.

@KS3: Did you even read the whole conversation? This proposal will not change anything about either comment you're referencing. >_>

I am Zero! I'll like one where if it is possible to make both of those types appear on the page; this might prevent stubs. Zero signing out.
 * It won't cause stubs. It would just be replaced by the second type.
 * Uh... how is changing an image supposed to cause stubs?
 * I am Zero! No I'm saying why don't we put both the screenshot of the level and the image of the whole level on articles. I'm not saying changing an image will create stubs I'm saying if there are some level articles that are stubs adding two images of the level may not make them stubs anymore. Zero signing out.
 * Adding images to an article is a very poor way to expand stubs... Besides, look at some of those world articles. There's not enough room on each level to add two images to each section.

The image of the whole level is shrunk drastically, making it nearly impossible to see it clearly without enlarging it. However, I don't like Image 2. Even though we are not a strategy guide, most people are visual learners. Most descriptions of levels are pointless to me if I can't see the picture of it. }}

Items and enemies order
ABC 7-0

I noticed a lot of items and enemies in articles like Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy 2 are just ordered randomly, which it a pain in the ass to navigate. We already has a proposal on the list of character relationships, and it won ABC. We pretty much are going to do the same thing with the items and enemies.

ABC is that we order the items and enemies in alphabetical format

Chronological is which appears first. The ones that appear first goes first, and the ones that appear last appears last in the article. If 2 appear at the same time, then it will be organized in alphabetical.

Importance is how important that item/enemy is. The most important item/enemy goes first and the least important one goes last.

EDIT: It won't affect bosses, in case if you don't know

{{Scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|KS3}} Voting start: 23:10, May 2 2010 Deadline: 23:59, May 9 2010

ABC

 * 1) most convenient, and few other games' enemies are organized ABC
 * 2) I am Zero! ABC order will be the easiest way to navigate for those who don't know much of the Mario series. Zero signing out.
 * 3) - Per comment below. Really the only way that makes sense, and it's already being done like this in various places.
 * 4) I agree.The ABC is the best order I can thik of.
 * 5) - ABC order is pretty much the only way, chronological is just too hard to memorize and you can never tell what's more important - a Goomba or a Koopa Troopa.
 * 6) - Per all.
 * 7) Neither of the others seem to make sense.

Comments
As I have stated on the characters proposal, sorting anything by "importance" is extremely subjective. Chronological seems overly complicated and isn't even possible for non-linear games. Alphabetical order is basically the order used for pretty much anything except appearances in a History section (as they can easily be arranged chronologically just by looking at the release dates of individual games/other media). The navigation templates already put these things in alphabetical order in fact, and some articles, like the Super Mario Galaxy article (at least the "Returning Enemies" section of it) attempt an alphabetical order as well (though parts of it apparently got messed up here). I would like to know though, would the outcome of this proposal would affect bosses as well?--
 * It will affect bosses as well.
 * I'm tempted to oppose because of this. Bosses should be listed in the order they appear in the game. There is a very clear boss order in most games, and this order would be far easier to navigate than alphabetical.
 * There is a less clear boss order in other games, however, like in Wario Land II, so those would probably have to be listed alphabetically. If the bosses with a clear order were listed in order of appearance and those without listed alphabetically, there'd be inconsistencies, which may not be the best thing either :\--
 * I knew someone would bring up this one. I'm pretty sure it's clearer than you think; if you look on the game's article, the levels are lined up very orderly. The bosses could be lined up equally to the level layout. Also, the fact that there is a clear "main" route in the game means that there is also a clear "main" boss encounter order. The other bosses are lined up with another chapter and should be included in the same order as the chapters above. If that makes sense.

Uhm... I don't know why they weren't in alphabetical order... They're supposed to be. They are in almost every other game. }}

Splitting Final Smashes
NO SPLIT 1-5

Yes, i know very recently we tried to split ALL the SSB moves, but i am proposing we split ONLY the SSBB Final Smashes to separate pages. They wont be stubs, since they have a trophy, foriegn name, and a large description. Does anyone agree?

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Raphaelraven497}} Voting start: 18:23, May 6 2010 Deadline: 23:59, May 13 2010

Split

 * 1) Per me.

No Split

 * 1) Why split the page? It's nice to look at all in one page without having to constantly click on the links. Besides, Super Smash Bros. Brawl's Final Smashes are technically moves too. It makes no sense to split a move from a move article.
 * 2) I am Zero! Per LGM (that doesn't stand for Little Green Men). Zero signing out.
 * 3) - We dedicate enough space to SSB information; separate pages for each Final Smash is excessive, and as LeftyGreenMario pointed out, navigation is easier using the current setup.
 * 4) - I agree with Walkazo.
 * 5) Per LGM.

Comments
Urk, wrong section? This should be in a talk page proposal.
 * It is not in the wrong section. It is proposing the final smashes to be split from the character articles into separate articles.

Btw, i am not going to vote on it because if we split the final smashes, we'll have to split all the rest of the moves, which would result in a lot of stubs, and if we don't, then we'll have to merge all the rest of the moves into the articles.


 * "All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the Wiki should still be held on this page." This is dealing with a specific group of articles.
 * There are a lot of recent proposals which deal with a specific group of articles that are still on here (the FI ones, the one on the Catch Cards, the Super Mario Advance one, the Main Page ones, etc.)
 * Those proposals all deal(t) with "massive amounts" of changes, as does this one, so this is/was the most appropriate location for them. -

}}

Critical Reception
NO CHANGE 2-0-5

I noticed something when I was browsing some articles about games. Some articles have a "critical reception" section while others do not. These sections do not describe the content about the game, but they do include how well the game did. My question is, what should we do with this section? It breaks the consistency of the game articles, and it is not a requirement on the articles. Should we remove this section, add this section to all game articles, or should we do nothing?

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|LeftyGreenMario}} Voting starts at: 1:00, May 7 2010 Deadline: 23:59, May 14 2010

Add them!

 * 1) I am Zero! Doesn't sound like a bad idea, in fact, we need those. Zero signing out.
 * 2) - Per Grandy02's comment too, I think that this could be good for the wiki.

Do nothing!

 * 1) - If a game garnished some sort of noteworthy reception, odds are it already has a Critical Reception section, or will eventually be given one. Not all games merit one of these sections, however, so adding them to all the pages wouldn't really accomplish anything; meanwhile, removing them from the articles that do need them would be stripping the wiki of valuable information. Therefore, it would be best to do nothing as far as a blanket policy goes: instead, take the middle-road and deal with the sections on a case-by-case basis.
 * Per Walkazo.
 * Per Walkazo; Was originally going to vote this way. If there's something special to say about the critic's reception, then someone will think to add it. Wikipedia already has sections (and charts) on this for many (if not all) games.
 * 1) - Per Walkazo.
 * 2) Per Walkazo and Grandy02's comment.

Comments
I don't know. Though we are supposed to list information concerning game, we aren't a gaming site either that lists what other people think. Sure, I asked that question before in Mario Party 8 and the guys said it was fine, but the other articles don't use it either, and I'm not 100%. I'll wait and see what these administrators will say.
 * When an article doesn't have a reception section, it's just because nobody has added it yet. That something is not in all articles doesn't mean that it should be removed. It's not just what "other people" think - we don't cover fan opinions, but how people of professional media saw the game - media that have connections to the gaming industry and are officially given copies by the companies to review them prior to the release. --
 * Absolutely. Per Grandy02.

I really think we should only have them where there is something noteworthy to say about it. Most games eventually turn into a mixed bag. Some people like it, some don't. More often now people are reviewing classic / retro / older games. Sometimes they do better later, as the player did not expect anything from the hype. Sometimes they do worse. I think we would need to have a strict definition of "critic". I dislike Super Mario 64, I could go post a video on YouTube right now about everything I dislike about it, use my own video as a source and then post that it became one of the games future games were compared to despite being unoriginal, uninspired dreck. I think it would become too difficult to police.
 * Also I would like to add that The Sims 2: Pets got a horrible critic reception because it was difficult to actually kill your pets, which really just shows critics kinda missed the whole point (although I would give it a bad review for other reasons...)
 * Using your video as a source wouldn't work. As said, things that were simply brought up by fans aren't covered. And many games I know of haven't turned into a "mixed bag." For example, most games of the Super Mario Bros. series, the 3D Mario platfomers, the Wario Land and WarioWare series have almost only received favourable reviews by the major (English-language) sites and magazines (of course, there will always be some critics who disagree). I think the list at Wikipedia is a good reference on what can get in and what not. If there is a lack of the sources mentioned there, most notably for classic games, it can always be decided on a case-by-case basis. --
 * Well it isn't part of the proposal itslef, and for some reason I keep reading proposals as though they are what we should do and how we should do it (which most aren't). Anyway, I guess if someone feels and article would be improved by having this section, there's no reason not to have it. I am against adding it just because it's on a template though. I'm not really sure this would need a proposal, anyway.

A lot of reviews from the "professional media" people are (very) flawed and maybe even biased (according to a lot of people).
 * That's not ours to judge. Reviews from official sources sort of belong to a game's history, and it doesn't matter how such a review is written (If I could just go around and strike subjects I don't like here because I deem them unprofessional, there wouldn't be much left of this wiki). Also "a lot of people" doesn't sound like a very objective source to me either. -

}}

List of Appearances
NO QUORUM 2-0-0

Several articles such as Princess Daisy, Dixie Kong and Bowser Jr. have a list of Appearances. These should be in all character articles (except characters who only appear once) or not there at all.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Commander Code-8}} Voting starts at: May 8, 2010, 22:35 Deadline: May 15, 2010, 23:59 2010

Add Lists In

 * 1) Per my Proposal.
 * 2) Per Commander-Code 8.

Comments
Once again, just like Critical Reception, nobody has bothered to add the sections to the article. It isn't inconsistency, it's laziness or just that people don't know every appearance.


 * I read the manual of style and I've seen no critical reception section listed there. Well, it doesn't matter, there are a lot of other common sections not listed there. The more, the merrier! (I guess :P)

Don't worry guys, I'll be more than happy to add the lists in.
 * Then do so, I don't think you need a proposal to do something that is already being done...
 * I just wanted to see how many people agreed.

}}

Limit Number of Articles Any Given User Can Nominate for FA Status
SET LIMIT 9-0

I propose we limit the number of articles that a user can nominate at one time. When a user is able to nominate as many articles as he or she wishes, the articles often end up neglected and contain many opposes that never end up being fixed. The newly added feature to quickly delete nominations is helpful, but we have far too many nominations from the same users that end up never being featured because the user gives up on the article they nominated. I propose that this limit be three (3) articles at one time. As soon as an article passes or fails, the user can nominate another article.

Some examples of these nominations are: Featured Articles/N/World 5 (New Super Mario Bros.), Featured Articles/N/Princess Peach, Featured Articles/N/Donkey Kong Country.

{{scroll box|content= Nominator: {{user|Bloc Partier}} Voting Start: May 9, 2010, 00:29 Deadline: May 16, 2010, 23:59

Support

 * 1) - I am the proposer. As such, my reasons are above.
 * 2) Per BP. This makes the system a lot less cluttered.
 * 3) - Per BP
 * Per BP's reasons.
 * 1) Per BP.
 * 2) Per all. (I'm fine as long as it doesn't affect past nominations.)
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - I'd even go as far as saying that one nominated article per person is sufficient, but well... I'm satisfied with this, because it is a step in the right direction.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
@KS3: When you read this, please don't take it personally. There have been plenty of instances in the past where people nominated a ton of articles and then failed to support them. It was just now that I decided to make a proposal about it. I'm so sorry if I offend you, but I really feel that a limit should be created.

@Everyone: I feel that you might not like the low limit of three articles. I'll be willing to negotiate something else if you would like, but act fast. I only have about a day to change the proposal.

Bloc Partier, I think you should change the proposal. Maybe you should make it so when a nominated article is opposed a lot more than supported by a variable amount and if it never gets bumped again (unless it's for more opposing) for a variable amount of days, the nomination should get archived. Maybe I should explain it in fewer words? I put a variable because I'm not sure what's the correct amount.
 * Well, that doesn't even pertain to anything I'm already trying to do here. There already is the two-month deletion rule. I'm trying to get rid of the frustration that occurs when a user nominates a ton of articles and then never sees them through to their featured status. The nominator should be responsible for getting the article featured, and if they are unable to see it through, then they shouldn't be able to nominate so many articles.

Does it affect previous nominations or from this point on??
 * From this point on.

Let's say I make three nominations. How long will I have to wait?
 * "As soon as an article passes or fails, the user can nominate another article." – On a different note, I just thought about making exactly such a proposal. We so need it.

Another question. This doesn't affect Unfeature nominations in any way, right? (In my opinion it shouldn't, since you can't just nominate tons of articles to be unfeatured, because you need valid reasons.)
 * I agree with Time Q.
 * Yeah, it won't affect Unfeaturing. If we need a rule to affect it, we can do it later.

@KS3: I feel like I should mention that if this passes, you won't be able to nominate anything until you only have two active pending nominations... Only until the rest are gone will you be able to nominate once again. }}

Make Main page's changes in one day
KEEP OLD ROUTINE 4-6

I'll explain clearly: We know we change the information shown in the Main Page periodically (specially for the featured article, image and DYK), but I see a small problem in that we make this in different days (FA for saturdays, FI for thursdays and DYK for - what day?) and sometimes we ignore the time for the change. In this proposal I want to Make the habit to change some things in the Main page on the same day. Considering that...


 * 1) All the rutinary changes should be applied on the same day, preferably, starting on saturday, where we make the changes for the Featured Article, Image and DYK zones.
 * 2) Changing in this way would give an advantage for a more reliable habit, and also make an active contribution for the so-questioned "Did You Know..." box.

Sure, this won't apply for the other boxes of the page (Pipe Plaza, Proposals and News) since those changes depend on what's going from the sources.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Coincollector}} Voting start: May 9, 2010, 18:12 Deadline: May 16, 2010, 23:59

Change Routine

 * 1) - Per my prop.
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per all, what else to say? Uhhhh...
 * 4) - I need to support because Coin' is right, per all.

Keep Old Routine

 * As commented below, I don't think this is necessary. I like the fact that the Main Page is updated at least twice a week rather than just once, and there have never really been any problems with this.
 * 1) - Per Time Q.
 * 2) Luigi=awesome - Per users above.
 * 3) - Basically per Time Q, but there's another thing: Updating those sections on a more or less regular basis is far more stressful than someone who never did it can imagine. If you now force a tight schedule on these persons, this will mean even more stress and, as a result of this, a much higher quit rate. Risky proposal is risky, so no.
 * 4) It would be very stressful to the people who edit it plus it would dramatically increase the quit rates, so this proposal is very illogical.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments?
I don't think this is necessary. We have never "ignored" the time for updating the templates (well, never for FIs, and once for FAs in... how many years?).


 * Neither me (well, just I can't make the updates regularly cuz my connection is down or I have another important bussiness). I think that was from my thoughts. Just look my two considerations and think is this could work or not.

}}

Limit the number of times a talk page proposal can be extended
NO LIMIT 2-7

Currently, the rules state that a talk page proposal can be extended by it's proposer at the end of it's deadline if neither sides exceed the other in three votes. This mean, though, that the proposal can be extended an infinite number of times, so long the proposer is attentive. I propose that a talk page proposal can only be extended two times before it's archived as No Quorum.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Reversinator}} Voting start: May 9, 2010, 21:00 Deadline: May 16, 2010, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per myself.
 * 2) Per Reversinator.

Oppose

 * 1) – I disagree with your proposal. Did you even stop to think why we extend proposals and talk page proposals if they tie or there is no majority? We extend them so a solution can be found. The proposer should have the choice to keep the proposal up. Some proposals actually bring up good arguments or cover highly debated issues. If a solution cannot be come to via the voting part of the proposal, then the comments section can be used as a structured and organized way to state opinions or attempting to reach a compromise; which the talk page proposal could be archived then or be rewritten to reflect the changes to reach a solution/compromise. Putting a limit on how long it can stay will not help with anything.
 * 2) - Per SMB. Removing the TPPs won't remove the problem they were trying to solve.
 * 3) - Agreeing with SMB here. This procedere would only lock out the people who see a problem and doesn't affect the problem itself other than blocking it from view. Shoving a smelly pile of dirt under a carpet won't make it any less smelly.
 * 4) Sure, the TPP section is getting kinda cluttered, but that's the (rather small) price to pay for a better wiki.
 * 5) ––  Per all.
 * 6) - Per SMB.
 * 7) - Per all. Wouldn't someone just re-propose them anyway?

Comments
Does it affect past TPPs?
 * It is just about TPPs --

Can't they just re-propose it later then? I think the idea was to keep one copy until it was finally eventually entirely resolved.
 * But technically, the proposal could stay on the wiki indefinitely, meaning that the Proposals page will look pretty stretched.


 * SMB: How about the Shooting Star Summit, Sherbet Land, and WarioWare:D.I.Y. proposals that have been up forever and are reaching another extension?
 * Those need to be dealt with... There is obviously a disagreement about the article/talk page proposals, so a compromise needs to be reached, as opposed to jusat killing whatever discussion has already gone on.

}}

Beta/Proto
NO QUORUM 0-2

I've noticed a few beta pages/ references around but I was always fasinated by the developement of games and im sure other people are to so I was hoping that a page could be created organizing all the information from all the beta games

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Olivora}} Voting start: 14 May, 2010, 06:36 Deadline: 21 May, 2010, 23:59

Oppose

 * 1) Per Time Q's comment, and it remembers me of the old Glitch page.
 * 2) per KS3 and Time Q's comment.

Comments
How do you mean? We already have a page that shows shows a list of all the beta elements pages we have? .
 * Yeah. We also used to have exactly such a page you're proposing, but we split it.

}}

Main Page Overhaul
OVERHAUL IT 16-0

Hm... How many "Main Page" proposals have we had? :P Although this proposal could technically be categorized under Changes, I put it under New Features because it will bring back and reform a process that was discarded last year, as well as making a new template to go on the Main Page (although it was already approved by Porple, I'd still like to see the user's opinions on this).

First off, I say that we rid the Main Page of the (actually heavily debated) Featured Image process and replace it with the Polls again (the system of selection was the reason it was removed; however, I think that a solution has been created).

Also, I feel that we should replace the Community template with a 'Shroom template. I am proposing this because, although Porplemontage already approved of this change, no action has been taken and no design for the new template has been come up with. I have a design I'd like to propose, and I will show that later on.

 Featured Images v. Polls  There are many problems with the Featured Images selection process. There have been a ton of proposals made to create rules, amend current policies, and how to fix the process. I find it funny... nay, ironic, how the same people who say that the system works and that we should not make changes to it are the ones making proposals to fix the system so that it can survive another week so that their favorite little character can star on the Main Page!

There are, from what I've seen from a recent proposal, many repeat nominations. There are also problems with some users about "fan votes"– that is, people who go voting on an image not for the quality of the image or because they feel it would do the Main Page some justice, but rather because their favorite character is in the image. There are also quite a few users that feel the system itself does not work at all (such as me).

Some feel that we should not feature images because they are not our creations, while others say that it brightens up the Main Page and makes it better. Overall, these are contested issues that are really never resolved; a proposal to fix it up is made, results in a tie for a week or two, and then no change is made when the proposal passes because one person felt that we should stick with the status quo.

This enough is proof to me that the F.I. system does not work. I know many will say that the Poll selection system never worked when it was around, but I would like to propose a new selection system for Polls:

We should create a special committee called the "Poll Selection Committee," with seven members; one of them being a chairman/chairwoman. Why seven? Well, it has enough people so that different opinions can be registered, yet there will almost never be a tie when all the selectors vote. Polls would be selected every two weeks, giving enough time for everybody to make decisions for the next poll.

The Chairperson would be almost like a regular committee member, except that in the case that if one of the committee members resigns or is fired, the chairperson gets to choose the leaving member's replacement. If a chairperson resigns, he or she can choose his or her replacement.

In order to fire a committee member (perhaps for disorderly conduct on the wiki or inactivity), a vote must take place among the other committee members (which should mean that there are six people involved in the vote). Four out of six of the committee members in the firing nomination have to agree in order to fire that member.

Chairperson elections would take place in the community after 26 bi-weekly polls are released (which should be the equivalent of about a year, when bi-weekly is interpreted as one poll every two weeks), to ensure that the Chairperson does not hold that position as long as they want to hold it against the will of the community. The incumbent Chairperson at that time can seek reelection, and can run as many times in the future as they want, though.

The committee would also have their own private forum board to discuss the polls, so that all discussions and decisions can be recorded in it for organized discussion and future reference.

Here is a summary of the things this proposal will change:


 * Replace Featured Images with Polls
 * Establish a committee in charge of the poll selection (explained in detail above)
 * Replace Community template with The Shroom template

A link to a test page for how the Main Page would look after these changes are made can be found here.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: Wiki Administrative Staff Voting Start: Sunday, 16 May 2010, 1:48 GMT Deadline: Sunday, 23 May 2010, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) – I think this will improve the wiki.
 * 2) - Per the proposal.
 * Per SMB
 * 1) -- Per SMB.
 * 2) &mdash; Per SMB.
 * 3) Everything seems fine by me. I'm a bit sick of FIs now too.
 * 4) - Per proposal.
 * 5) - Per us =D
 * 6) I love and hate the Featured Images. Featured Images made me go to this wiki. However, it's very flawed because the image featured is based on subjective tastes, which shouldn't be there when deciding when a picture is good. Besides, some cruddy images got featured because of nostalgia, hype, and/or bias. >_<The only really bad thing about this proposal is the blandness of the main page.
 * 7) - I still have a bad feeling, but I think it will be better. Let's just do it and hope that everything listed above goes as planned...
 * 8) I am Zero! I loved the PS page, that was the funest of them all, that was one of the reasons why I became a user here. Though I disagree with removing the community page and replacing it with the 'Shroom is just my opinion; in that case it doesn't really change that much and part of it is just a mini-pipe project section. I support. Zero signing out.
 * 9) Per all. However, I think that replacing the community temp with the Shroom Box doesn't make sense for obvious reasons. The main reason is there is a link right here. <--- (It may not be here though, but look to the left.) I also agree with adding the featured image to the Music/Art Section of the Shroom. I still hope the main page has color and that the polls are not completely pointless...
 * 10) Good idea. But how will we find out whos a sysop! Good Idea, though.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Poll and shroom tamplate huh?It's good for a change.
 * 13) Per all

Comments
I kind of missed out on the whole discussion about this, but why are we bringing back polls? Wasn't there a proposal before to get rid of them?
 * Did you read the proposal thoroughly? The poll system was ridden of by the Admins a while ago because it was horrible. One proposal to bring back the polls recently was shot down because it didn't suggest any changes or improvements from the old system. However, we suggest a completely new version of the poll selection process.

Time Q would be very pleased with this proposal.
 * I hope he is. By the way, I had to remove your vote, KS3. It isn't past the first 24 hours, so only the proposer(s) (the Admins, in this case) can vote until tomorrow (unless I am mistaken). Of course, you are invited to add your vote back tomorrow at or after the voting start time.
 * I live in Central Standard Time, and it's Friday at 22:17 at CST. Add 6 hours to that and you get Saturday at 4:17 at GMT. So, technically, I can vote, unless they made a mistake in the proposal.
 * Hm... I think I made a mistake. I'll have to double check.

By the way, why 24. 26 bi-weekly polls is much closer to one year than 24.
 * My math was off, I guess. Also, you were right about the mistake in the proposal... I forgot that it was already the 15th in GMT. My apologies.
 * No problem.

Is Raphaelraven497's vote valid? He is opposing because he likes the Featured Image and Community box templates. He provides no reason as to why these proposed changes would be bad for the wiki. @BMB: You do realize that a new poll system is being proposed, not the old one, correct? The committee would be run by those who are dedicated to getting polls posted up and the such. Plus, more time for discussion about polls is allowed (as opposed to 6 days of discussion and a poll being selected on the 7th day, there are 13 days of discussion and the poll gets posted on the 14th day). If I'm correct, also said that a new board on the forum can be made so that the committee members have a private place to discuss coming up with polls. So it would probably eliminate the problems you stated.
 * "Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., ' I like this idea! ' " I think it's invalid.
 * @SMB: Yes, I do realize that this is not the old poll thing that we are talking about. But if I'm correct, and from other Main Page templates we have, it is going to drag over time, and it will just be annoying to update it, and I do realize that your going to constantly discuss it, but I can still see that happening. The slow part, well, I'm not so sure about, but I'm sure there will be some slowing down at the beginning if this happens. Now the last part is all I want you to read. This is fan stuff, a thing that is better as part of the Fun Stuff in the 'Shroom rather than the main page. The main page is suppose to look perfessional and suppose to help show what is so great of our Wiki. At least the FI and the Commiunity thing shows a better example of that then the poll box and the 'Shroom template.
 * @BMB: What do you mean by "drag over time"? A schedule will be set up, and it will be every other week. It won't be too effort-wasting to have to archive a poll and stuff every other week. Featured Images don't show any effort other than just a ton of bias and opinion into which images we have. The Community box uses DPL coding, which has shown to slow down our Main Page (see the Quote of the Day proposal from before). This proposal should both reduce some load time, and show actual effort going in to the Main Page. And the polls add something that our Main Page doesn't have now: interactivity. I think that the biggest things that makes the poll win over the images is that it adds more depth to our Main Page, and it shows the creativity of our wiki. The 'Shroom box will both advertise our official newspaper (which it desperately needs in these times), and the 'Shroom has the Pipe Plaza (which will soon be the place to find community happenings and events). And the Music & Artwork team of the 'Shroom can easily replace the Featured Images process, and showcase many more images in one month. I think it works out well if this proposal passes.
 * @SMB: ........those are very good points that I didn't think of. To tell you the truth, I would love to add it back as long as it is better than the old ones, and FI could just be in the M&A section of the 'Shroom. Yet, I don't know why, but I just have a twinge of something in my gut telling me this is not going to go well. But other than that, it is a decent idea.

I'm torn. FIs were the main reason why I came to this wiki in the first place. But another thing is that polls are fun, nice, and creative things. Are you sure we're going to axe it totally? It does add a bit of color to the main page and Wikipedia has their very own FIs. If we are going to remove it, at least (as suggested above) place it in the Shroom since it will look good on that particular section.

I'm curious, but what would happen if things doesn't turn out as expected? I'm not saying that this was unprepared or not tested, but I'm just saying what if it becomes a total mess like the previous poll system or the FI voting system? What are we going to do?
 * Wikipedia has FI's because they have users that take pictures of (non-copyrighted) interesting things in extremely high quality. Have you ever seen the way Wikipedia images get featured? It's a ridiculously complex and taxing process. No image here would ever make it over at Wikipedia. Please, do not try to bring in the Wikipedia argument. Also, the Main Page has color. I really don't understand why people think the FI's add color, since there is a nice rainbow of colors on the setup of the page itself. And if the system does begin to break down, we will surely be there to fix it before it completely goes down the tube.
 * Ok, I really did not know that Wikipedia fact since I don't know anything about anything. And the "colorful" thing is my opinion of the main page, don't take it as a fact. It's just, for me, that pictures are more interesting to look at than colors on a template. And now that I think of it, the Main Page shouldn't be a place of great art anyway. It should be a place of navigation, updates, interesting stuff, etc., but then, that's my opinion.
 * I want to add that Wikipedia's process is incredibly complicated. In my opinion, even ZW's one is. WiKirby chooses a random image, but I don't think that would work fine...
 * @BMB: I'm sorry, I feel that I may have come off as a bit rude. Please, forgive me. I just was trying to toss my opinion out there. I value yours, and I thank you for sharing it. ;)
 * Tucayo, the WiKirby FI is like the Quote of the Second that we used to have on here.
 * Yeah, thats why it wouldn't work. --}}

YouTube Channel
DON'T HAVE 3-12

When I first joined the wiki, I was clueless about everything, more or less. I didn't know how to do anything or what this meant or what that meant. I still don't know how to do some things, and the help section didn't really help me. So, I propose we make a YouTube channel, with videos on it to help new users to learn about the basics of the wiki, and to show existing users some cool tricks and things to put on their userpages. It can also update about Mario series news. Zelda Wiki has a YouTube account, so does Bulbapedia. Plus, the username SuperMarioWiki is avaliable, so it would be easy for everyone to find.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} Voting start: 12:30, June 7 2010 Deadline: 23:59, June 14 2010

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) I think this would be a good way too show people things!
 * 3) Cool! Upload me some videos!

Oppose

 * 1) Per FireBabyLuigi11 below. We have articles for that. It would be lots of unnecessary work for people. I see no problem with the articles we currently have or any reason to make videos.
 * 2) Per FBL11. You could also ask a sysop.
 * 3) Ask an admin if you don't understand something. You can also use Sandbox to experiment a little.
 * 4) - This is unneeded.
 * 5) Although most of us are visual learners, try experimenting using the preview button or the sandbox. I was very confused at the beginning, but I got the hang of it.
 * 6) Per myself. Again...why do we need videos if we got articles. My work here is done!
 * 7) The articles, I believe, are adequate. As far as I know, the wiki context is pretty similar throughout wikis as well, so you can also look around the web. I don't think it is necessary, per all.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) - It seems too confusing and too much work. There are too many things to handle, such as The 'Shrrom and the Forum, and not to mention this site. There would have to be more and more admins chosen, which adds to the workload.
 * 10) What will we do with the youtube account? I'm sure that if you want a youtube account you can create it yourself, like what Wayoshi did. The wiki has too many things to do to bother with Youtube. btw, per all.
 * 11) Per all, and even though we're trying out best to spread the word about this place, I doubt going the YouTube route would be of any help in the cause.
 * 12) - You know what, per me in the comments section

Comments
Um...... we have all of these in articles. Why do we need them in videos?
 * Things are much easier when explained with videos.
 * but MrConcreteDonkey, how would we make the videos? I'm sure noone wants to reveal their identity or voice. Uneeded.
 * We could subtitle it or use a text to speech.

The account name "Super Mario Wiki" appears to be invalid by Youtube's naming standards. It also refuses to accept "SuperMarioWiki". -
 * Oh...INVALID...I thought that meant it wasn't taken. Well, if we did, we would have to abreviate it, like SMarioWiki or something like that. Not sure why, it has enough letters and no user has it (The username on YT).
 * Maybe THEMARIOWIKI is a not taken, why don't you guys try it?
 * TheSuperMarioWiki is avaliable. And anyway, SuperMarioWiki is not taken but is invalid still...
 * We could do MarioWiki.
 * There are other Mario wiki sites. We would want to be denoted from others.
 * What about MARIOWIKINIWA? This is the only Mario wiki that is a part of NIWA right?
 * That is correct. The Mario Wiki is still the only one of NIWA's founding members without an account.

Though I don't think this the best way to go about it, the Help section does need, ahem, help. I can never find what I'm looking for when I occasionally go over there for a bit of assistance.
 * Yes, I agree.

What about text. That could be a problem. Different countries, Diferent languages, and also....who would make these? Porple Montage?
 * Well, if you go really hardcore about the rules, this would mean the person who has to create those videos is, as per rule #10, the proposer himself, MrConcreteDonkey. To be honest, I highly doubt this proposal is going to come to fruition. -

@KS3: I already have my own YouTube account. I am proposing for this one because the current help section we have is not good enough and videos are a more accurate ways to explain things to anyone who is stuck. The only really useful part of the help section is the signature part, the rest is hopeless. The glossary is just a list of all of the articles on the wiki, and has NO useful terms and SHOULD NOT be in there and the vandalism help page is just a load of rubbish.
 * I have to agree with Donkey there. tHe glossory is a list of every article on the wiki, and the vandalism help gives untrue info. However, the CSS help page was a big help to me.


 * Wow, that page is actually really helpful.

@7.T.c.w7468: Sometimes adequate is not good enough. We need the Super Mario Wiki to be the best it can be, and currently having an 'adequate' help section wouldn't be as good for us as having a good help section, or, as my proposal explains, videos to give detail on how to do these things.
 * OK, I abstain from voting on this until I learn how we could do this. There are only a few possibilities: One user could make an account and have loads of work to do on his own so the user had better be willing (who would be willing anyways?), we create a common account and put the username and password on a page in MW but then trolls could destroy the channel with stupid things or we create an account for just a select few members who would make the videos. The latter seems to have the highest potential but it would still be a lot of work and we'd have to have people who knew wiki stuff very well and would be active for a long time in case of any new functions/changes to policy. If we make any of those three options (or a fourth one) available, I will support.
 * @BPK, Bowser's luma, Fawful and FBL: Could you guys rethink your reasons? Correct me if I'm wrong but youtube videos just may be a little more effective than articles. Out of all the people in this world, how many know how to navigate around a wiki? How many will type "MarioWiki:Help" into the search box? How many will know to click a link? And then, if their question isn't there, how many will know how to use a talk page? Wikis are complicated things when you first get to them. Now, compare that to youtube. Millions of people already use/know what youtube is and how to use it. All you do is type the name of the video (no complicated namespaces) and then click on your favorite result - it's google in another form. Youtube would be much more convenient for help pages if we could get all that done.

}}

Images in Categories
SUPPORT 12-0

Some users may know that I do a fair bit of work on image galleries. It can take a long time becuase you have to search to every page that's linked to the subject you're making a gallery on and it takes a long time. So I am proposing that we put images in the category of the game (or TV series and comics) To eg. make it easier for a user to find an image of the boxart of Super Mario Bros. 3.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Commander Code-8}} Voting start: 7:54, June 4 2010 Deadline: 23:59, June 11 2010

Support

 * 1) Per my Proposal
 * 2) Makes sense.
 * 3) This will make finding images easier.
 * 4) This will make it easier for everyone.
 * 5) Per everyone. Bulbapedia does that and it works great.
 * 6) Per all. This is a fantastic idea.
 * 7) Per Commander Code-8. It'll be easier unlike this explanation.
 * 8) I think it would be a lot easier just to go to a category to view lots of images rather than having to search all over the wiki for one image.
 * 9) Sounds good, per all.
 * 10) - Per all.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Brilliant per all!

Comments
You have a good point, just lemme make a suggestion, perhaps you could rename the proposal to something like "Categorizing Images", the current name confused me a little bit :/
 * Unfortunately I'd got on after the voting time started so I can't make any changes.
 * You can still edit it until 3 days after voting start.

A question, what would the categories be called? For example, "Super Mario Bros. 3 Images"? --

Wouldn't this be just like galleries?
 * Galleries use selected images, while those categories would include every image for a game available at Super Mario Wiki. Not to mention that various game pages still don't have any galleries at all. --

Grandy02: We don't need categories such as "Super Mario Bros. 3 Images". Most games have a category of their own, So we'll just put them in those categories rather than making new ones.
 * No, we won't do that. This would mess up the category system even more than it is already. Just make a separate category for those image collections. -
 * I agree with Edofenrir. Putting all images into the game's main category would also cause an increase of loading times for the respective pages, even though if someone isn't looking for the images. --
 * You guys make a good point. I agree with you.

}}

Interactions in Smash Bros. Characters articles
NO CROSS-SERIES RELATIONS 1-6

Most of the main character articles have an interaction with other character section. I've been looking at some of the articles about Smash Bros. characters, and I thought we could do a similar thing on those articles. (eg have a section about Fox's interaction with Falco and Wolf.) Personality and Descriptions could also be done. Doing this could possibly Feature some of these articles.

Note: The interactions will only be about characters that actually appeared in a Mario-related game. So we won't have ones about Link's interaction with Midna etc. (But things such as Pit's interaction with Palutena and Snake's interaction with Roy Campbell are fine.)

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|Commander Code-8}} Voting start: 9:14, 12 June 2010 Deadline: 23:59, June 19 2010

Support

 * 1) Per my Proposal

Oppose

 * 1) Seems pretty pointless to me. We're the Super Mario Wiki, not the Super Solid Snake Wiki or the Super 'how well does Kirby get on with Pokémon Trainer' wiki.
 * 2) - The "Relationships with Other Characters" sections are actually dissuaded: only really major character interactions deserve sections (i.e. Mario's relationship with Peach can be written about, but Yoshi's relationship with the Princess should not get a section), and nothing in the Super Smash Bros. series qualifies by those standards (as far as the Mario series goes, at any rate).
 * 3) - MCD has the right idea, I believe there was a proposal about keeping only the Mario-related information in these exact pages and I supported that proposal for the evident logic: we are a Mario wiki.
 * 4)  I agree with MrConcreteDonkey.
 * 5) Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Well, we are the Super Mario Wiki, so we should focus on Mario related things not other Nintendo or Sega related things.

Comments
I'd also like to point out that with the new NIWA, we have enough connections that they can go to ZeldaWiki or Bulbapedia to find the relations between Link and Zelda instead of barking up the wrong tree and finding the prize by mistake (metaphors FTW).

If this fails, we will have to delete the relationship with Sonic from Mario's page.
 * Mario's relationship with Sonic was already removed from the page long ago.--

}}

Move Galleries from Main Articles into Gallery Articles
PASSED 12-3

My second proposal.

What the name of the proposal says. I would like to propose the action of moving galleries from Main articles into Gallery pages. This type action will reduce the unnecessary downloading of images for guests and users focusing on reading material, and simply take away the biased feelings of attempting to pick the "best" images for the article. This is in response of this overlooked comment by User:NARCE, but took a different approach.

Unfortunately, I've already done this action prematurely - with articles that includes Mario, Super Mario 64, Bowser, and Mario Party 6. My apologizes for doing that.

This change will occur only for large galleries (such as Mario Party 6), or existing galleries in the article that has it's own Gallery page (look at Mario, SM64, and Bowser). This won't effect on game/handheld consoles - since it doesn't "fit".

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: {{User|RAP}} Voting start: 20 June, 2010 - 00:40 Deadline: 27 June, 2010 - 00:39

Support

 * 1) - I am the proposer who wrote this.
 * 2) Per RAP.
 * 3) - Per RAP; anything to ease loading strains on poor old computers like mine. Plus, the articles already have images, so having a "preview" of the main gallery seems kinda pointless (especially if images are put in the preview and the actual gallery: repetition takes away from these types of presentations).
 * 4) If I understand correctly, RAP is proposing that we either have the gallery on the page itself, or in the gallery page; so that we don't have a small gallery on the page and then a bigger gallery in a gallery page. And I agree: It seems a tad disorganized to me to have a gallery in two places (or have a whole gallery in one place and part of one at another). Also, per Walkazo.
 * 5) As a prominent gallery maker, I think this proposal is a good idea. Per all
 * 6) It's kind of stupid how we have a section of the gallery on the article, but the whole thing on the gallery page. That's what RAP proposed, I guess. However, I want to see what the gallery contains; MS&G said the small gallery is a preview for the gallery page.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - I agree. Per the proposal.
 * Per RAP.
 * 1) - Per all.
 * 2) I always liked galleries in the main articles, but this is crazy. It needs to be separated, per all.
 * 3) I'm noticed~ But yeah, my comment basically sums up my reasoning.

Oppose

 * 1) frankly i dont want to have to go to an entirely new article just to see 1 or 2 pictures for articles with many lik eg. :mario, princess peach, yoshi, but there are only thosr for the main characters and such i completely disagree with this because i think it would be a huge hassle and most people would probably think that a tab in the contents section saying "gallery" only to find a redirect. i personally think that is a huge waste of space
 * 2) let me say that I totally disagree with theyoshiegg. However, I'm afraid many articles will have to be unfeatured due to lack of images. Besides, each gallery page only has about 200 views.
 * 3) Per theyoshiegg. For a person who is visiting the wiki but is not a user they may become confused. It is easy enough to find an image now.

Comments
Isn't this what we already do, RAP?
 * As I said, all large galleries will be moved to their gallery articles - existing galleries will be deleted and be replaced a link to the full gallery of images. If we "supposedly" done this before, explain why we still have sample list of a gallery and a link to a full gallery in the main article. For example, Super Mario Galaxy (large gallery), and Yoshi (two seperate galleries, one in the main article where a sample list of images, and the other the full list of images in the gallery - aka Gallery:Yoshi). -- 03:14, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * SMB: Actually he's proposing to set the bar between Title/Gallery and Title for the location of images if I read it properly. We currently follow both policies and he's proposing that we do one policy for big galleries, one for smaller ones though IDK what he defines as a "big" gallery...*looks at RAP questioningly*
 * I talked with him in chat. He confirmed that I was correct. 05:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That is, essentially, what I said by "setting the bar" - something cannot be both below and above the bar. P.S.No-sig policy I've been going through a routine in which galleries in character articles can't have more than 8 screenshots and 16 artworks. Think of it as just a preview of what the main gallery page contains.

This is like making a gallery page for the characters' images (and similar things), and using a link that leads to them (like the quotes, glitches and beta links in game articles) right?
 * Indeed so. @theyoshiegg: Use common sense when deciding if you want to move the gallery to a new page. Mario's FUNdamentals is a good example, I just recently found these images and uploaded them in MarioWiki. Since there's nowhere to put them, I simply leave them there. Making a link to like Gallery:Mario's FUNdamentals is simply ridiculous. -- 01:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, BPK: If the articles were featured because of image content in the gallery section, they should not have been featured - the image content should have been in the main sections of the article and AFAIK RAP is not proposing we eliminate screenshots from the main sections of the article - just the screenshots and artwork in the gallery.

@BluePikminKong497: How is this supposed to unfeature articles? We're simply taking large galleries and moving them to a separate page. Also, it doesn't matter how many views they get, especially because most gallery pages are pretty new.


 * I guess that people are going to skim over articles and miss that tiny gallery section that blends with the rest of the article. I've overlooked the gallery too several times in the articles RAP modified.

@Bowser's luma: We could have a link to the pages' galleries in their articles.
 * Actually surfers and new users have a tendency to not know what a link is - he made a good point there.

I found something absurd, from BPK, that implies that having less images is detrimental to a featured article. In all intents and purposes, less is more in this case to a point. The gallery should not have anything to do with the article's quality. The only thing images should effect is how they're utilized in the article. As it is, the gallery is just something tacked on at the end. - NARCE 03:49, 27 June 2010 (UTC) }}