MarioWiki:Proposals

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Split Mario Kart Tour character variants or merge kart/glider variants: Take 2
Okay, so I'm gonna try re-visiting this again. Having discussed it a bit more with others and going over things in my head, I would like to try this idea again. I would like to start with Mario Kart Tour content simply because it is a more glaring inconsistency between having the character alternates merged with their normal selves while kart and glider variants get their own articles, despite all three sharing the same differences. If we deal with this first, perhaps that could open options to other topics with similar situations to Tour. So I would like to represent the similar options along with a few additional options:
 * Splitting character variants: This would give character alternates their own articles, making them consistent with kart and glider variants. However, this does boarder on a more convoluted topic regarding characters with palette swaps (mainly Yoshis, Shy Guys and the Roving Racers) and is a much bigger topic overall that probably requires even more discussion. So I likely wouldn't recommend this option.
 * Merging kart/glider variants to their base articles: We would merge kart/glider variants to their base articles, covering them in a similar way to how we cover character variants, making the karts and gliders more consistent with characters, as well as how we handle other palette swaps, as karts such as the Blue Biddybuggy, Sky-Blue B Dasher Mk. 2 and Green Cheep Charger all share the same special skill as their parent karts, but are just different colors. However, doing this would also mean we'd likely have to consider similar approaches to several karts in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart DS.
 * Merging character/kart/glider variants into lists: This one is similar to the above option, but rather than merging them to their base karts/gliders, we'd merge karts and gliders and split character variants into lists based on what they're variants of. Consider this a similar idea to how we list off track appearances across tours; listing each variant of a topic (example: List of Mario variants in Mario Kart Tour or List of B Dasher variants in Mario Kart Tour etc). This would provide information in a similar way to how the individual articles cover these topics while also cutting down on how many individual articles we have for reskinned karts and slightly reducing the Mario Kart Tour sections for characters with a lot of alts (such as Mario and Peach). However, the one thing I noticed about this and that would be topics with only one or two alternates so this one might require more discussion too.
 * Splitting character variants into lists: As per what said, some of the karts/gliders feel different enough to have their own articles. After a bit of thinking, I can see that, but it can also relate to how tricky it is to really pinpoint the "original variant" for karts/gliders introduced in Tour. So this new option would be similar to the above option, but only apply to the characters, who are much easier to pinpoint than karts/gliders. While it still leaves a bit of an inconsistency, it at least helps de-clutter the articles of the original characters and still gives these variants a similar way of coverage to that of the karts and gliders.
 * Do nothing: We don't do anything and I hit the drawing board again to see if I can find other options or iron out the problems in the above ideas.

All this considered, I still feel we can cover Tour's variants in a more consistent way. I'm open to further suggestions or opinions, but for now, these are my ideas and possible solutions.

Proposer: Deadline: May 4, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge kart/glider variants and split character variants into list articles

 * 1) Primary option. I feel this could work if we made it similar to our "List of Track tour appearances", but gear them towards the information for each variant of a topic.

Split character variants into list articles

 * 1) I feel like the karts and gliders are different enough to be their own articles. They also have different sizes which are never noted in-game, which makes the hitboxes bigger. Minor detail, but I think this is still important. The main problem I have with this proposal are the merges. The Pumpkin Kart is a variant of the Apple Kart, but it doesn't share that many similarities. Some of the variants aren't just palette swaps, they're items with different designs which bears some resemblance to the original. I think the current way of handling these is okay and won't cause too many issues. You could also argue what is a variant of what if they are in lists. The list also features a lot of sections, and pages like these can become really long (B Dasher MK.2, the Hanufadas, etc.). I'm ok with splitting the character variants into lists though.
 * 2) I can agree to what WildWario's saying and I feel it's a good start at the very least.
 * 3) Per WildWario
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) This is the most efficient and effective option in my opinion, bar none.

Do nothing

 * 1) -- I agree with  insofar as the karts and gliders should be allotted articles individually, because it's tricky to make a concrete differentiation between variants or construe one kart as the "base" kart without looking into the game's files. I'm also opposing the creation of list-type pages for driver variants, on the one hand because there isn't any valuable information they could register beyond what the base driver's article and "Profiles and statistics" rubric already do, and on the other because they would be quite barren to begin with--picture a page that only lists Baby Rosalina and Baby Rosalina (Detective) in its entirety. Perhaps some Mario Kart Tour sections, "Mario"'s especially, could benefit from enumerating driver variants in a bulleted list rather than prose format, but I otherwise think the current arrangement works more than fine and any more additions would lead to cluttering the wiki's main space for no reason.
 * 2) Per Koopa con Carne, the current setup works fine in spite of any inconsistencies.
 * 3) Per Koopa con Carne.

Comments
The recolored karts in Double Dash!! and DS shouldn't be anything to worry about, as all such karts have different stats from their base karts. ShootingStar7X (talk) 16:15, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * That is primarily what I think too, but it was brought up in the past so I thought it was worth mentioning, mainly because Tour doesn't follow the same stat rules that traditional MK titles do, but they still feature differences between karts through skills, rarity and favorite/favored courses, which are kinda like Tour's equivalent to "stat differences". If it poses no issue in the future, then it's nothing to worry about, but I brought it up just in case it could be a factor.

While I agree with the need to be consistent with the Characters, Karts and Gliders, but regarding the Karts and Gliders that are brand new to Tour, it becomes hard to pinpoint which of the articles need to be merged with which ones. For instance, this wiki regards Butterfly Wings as a variant of Butterfly Sunset purely because Butterfly Sunset was released first, yet the name Butterfly Wings sounds more like that's actually the original Glider while the name Butterfly Sunset sounds like a variant of the Butterfly Wings (we know that variants can appear before the original: Dasher II came out way before Cucumber, for instance). Additionally, does the Dozer Dasher count as a bulldozer-attachment variant of the Firefly (which in turn is a yellow variant of Dragonfly), or is it its own thing? Arend (talk) 16:53, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * I did talk about this on Discord and while it's hard to "officially" pinpoint some of the karts and gliders introduced in Tour, I feel the steps are to look at theming. Yes, the Dasher II came out before the Cucumber, but the Cucumber is an established kart from before Tour so I feel that's easy to explain. As for the Butterfly Wings, well sure it was introduced second, but it represents the most basic theme of the idea: butterfly wings. The Butterfly Sunset feels like a sunset themed version of the Butterfly Wings. The way I see it, we can either deduce by basic theming, though that would boarder on speculation and can't really help if a themed variant debuts before any knowledge of a "base" version or we can treat the first debuting variant as the base, even if some cases (i.e. the Butterfly Wings or the Sushi Racer) feel obvious on which is the base. As for the Dozer Dasher versus the Dragonfly, I personally don't think the Dozer Dasher is a variant of the Dragonfly. It has a similar design, sure, but a distinct difference in what it's based on. Looking at almost every kart variant there is, the only differences rest in their color scheme or their wheels. Despite the similarities, the Dozer Dasher has a more distinct visual difference from the Dragonfly in the fact that it's based on a bulldozer rather than a tractor and has a scoop on the front instead of a plow on the back. That being said, I don't believe the Dozer Dasher is intended to be a variant of the Dragonfly, more or less being it's own thing with the Dragonfly's design in mind. But if that boarders on speculation, then I can reason with treating it as a variant of the Dragonfly.

What would an example of an entry in a list article be? 19:12, April 27, 2022 (EDT)
 * I can definitely make one to give an idea of what I’m thinking of. I’m kind of thinking of using what the articles currently have and making them more of sections rather than full on articles.
 * @Bazooka Mario: Here's an example of what I had planned for list articles. It basically does merge all the information present on the articles themselves, which I think could help avoid large paragraphs on the main pages.
 * I see, and yeah this does seem very feasible. Though I didn't expect it to look the way it is. I was kind of expecting more like a compact, but useful enemy table from the bestiary pages. 21:13, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * A thought of mine did gear towards some sort of template akin to the bestiaries, I think that would work even better. I'm just wondering how to go about that. Maybe I could try exploring with that, but I still gotta learn more about how to make those kinds of templates (haven't really had to make one yet so I gotta figure all that out). 22:37, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

There's obviously a certain risk when covering a mobile game, especially now with recolor variants popping up, and on a wiki that cover everything and anything Mario. You want to cover any nook and cranny (no pun intended) as possible, but at the same time containing information so that it doesn't overflow. I haven't yet decided, but merging the kart and glider variants has me conflicted. If we merge those variants together, the page will become so long that if Mario Kart Tour continues on for a another couple years editing these pages could be a nightmare, especially to mobile editors that have to add this information in.

And that's the risk of covering a mobile game: they throw literally everyone at you and you have to cover whatever they throw, resulting in large content of bloat. The navbox for Mario Kart Tour perfectly demonstrates this problem; so much of the navbox content is filled with vehicle parts, courses, and drivers, not to mention the large chunk dedicated for "Notable landmarks and areas".

I believe in the long-term we should consider splitting content as to be easier for the editors to distribute information and for the reader to gain a perfect understanding of that content. It's also very important that we balance what information we want on these kart/glider pages, so that it may not become too overbloated. I could also suggest using the Cargo extension for MarioWiki, though I feel like using the extension may become a headache for editors that had not gained experience with using Cargo (like I did with Nookipedia). 21:08, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * The thing is, keeping all the variants merged does look cluttered. Like look Mario's article for example. The man has over 20 variants, more if you really want to include Metal Mario, Ice Mario and Builder Mario. That entire paragraph listing his variants looks kinda cluttered from my point of view. But at the same time, splitting them could open a few other potholes in the form of other palette swaps in other games. Something that was noted in my first attempt is that some of the variants are palette swaps, Yoshis and Shy Guys, and the question was why should we just split off the Tour variants? Cause especially in the case of the Yoshis, who have had several appearances, many of which with notable differences as an individual playable character, it would look weird to have a Red Yoshi page, but not include any of the other times that a Red Yoshi appeared distinct from Yoshi himself, as well as the overall debate over whether or not they should be split or merged. I do strongly think that list articles, while they do have a lot of sections, are still more organized than how the character pages cover them and would still cover them in a similar way to how the currently split articles do. 22:37, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * My comment was in regards to the karts/gliders being merged. It had nothing to do with characters, which I agree that splitting may work in their favor. My original comment was concerned over how this may go in the long-run, since mobile games only end when the developers or publishers tell it to end. With Mario Kart Tour the third-highest grossing mobile game by Nintendo only behind Animal Crossing: Pocket Camp and Fire Emblem Heroes, I feel like this game may last possibly into 2024, its five year anniversary. But from there, how will these list pages for variants be with all the new content being added? Because while your idea here looks great on paper, what will this look like long-term? My major concerns are long TOCs that are the result of the number of variants for each Kart/Glider, how mobile editing will go following the merger, and if the merger will have any impact on the page loading times in part thanks to the number of images having to be rendered. That's what I'm conflicted on, if Karts/Glider variants should even be merged with their original other in the first place. 23:46, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * It's true that the game is constantly updating and adding new things and it's inevitable that any lists regarding individual content in this game are going to be long. But from the way I see it, these variant lists will likely be little to no different than how we handle the List of "Track name" Tour appearances. As of currently, DS Waluigi Pinball has 28 appearances across MKT's life, the most out of any track and that number is only going to get bigger too. Kart/glider lists could get that long too, but that's kinda what the comparison is; almost any list for individual topics in MKT will likely end up being long. Thinking about it, if we do end up making list of character variants, Mario's own list is going to be massive too. But I feel that, regardless, it's still a better step forward in finding better and more consistent ways of covering this content. Now I don't use mobile all that much for this site, so I can't really say much for loading times for images, but if I may ask, how would this be any different than the track appearances across each tour?

@WildWario: Would I be able to add that option now? I forget if I'm allowed to alter a proposal after making it or not or if I have a set amount of time where I can do so. Because to some degree, I'd like to do something about how character variants don't get articles, but kart and glider variants do, as that's the main inconsistency I'd like to deal with. I personally still believe that most of the kart/glider variants are still just palette swaps. I haven't noticed a size difference between variants unless it's being used by characters with a clear size difference (like Toad to Bowser or something like that, as their frame size does change based on character). 22:37, April 28, 2022 (EDT)


 * I think you can do that during the first three days of the proposal. About the kart sizes, some of the variants have different sizes. I'll upload an image to your talk page later.  22:49, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * That would be much appreciated. An example would help. And thanks for the suggestions too, I appreciate it.

@Koopa con Carne: Okay, if we decide to do nothing, I have a suggestion for that too. Perhaps we can list off the variants in a similar way to how we do the Mii Racing Suits? Images along with their special items (and perhaps their Tour debut). I feel that could be reasonable for cutting down on the otherwise bloated paragraphs. 16:50, April 29, 2022 (EDT)
 * Provided this is the proposal's outcome, I personally think it would work that way. This is just my opinion, though--I sense other users may prefer other set-ups, so another proposal may need to be motioned on particular ways to itemise these variants on the same article as their base subjects. (Again, only in the "Do Nothing" scenario.) 17:22, April 29, 2022 (EDT)

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