MarioWiki:Proposals

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Recreate the numbered Mario Kart redirects
The recent controversy over the new Throw Block redirect threw me back to a certain proposal made almost two years ago. Yes, I'm talking about this travesty that, despite being a clear violation of the redirect policy then, and even moreso now, still somehow passed 12-7, deleting all the numbered Mario Kart redirects that could have actually helped people who wanted to know what, say, the fourth Mario Kart game was.

All the reasons given on the support side of that linked proposal are flawed. To quote my vote in that proposal: "According to Redirects, "If there's even a small chance that a redirect will help someone, it's not useless." And while there may only be one person in the world who calls them that, that's more then zero; hence, they're not useless."

That point still stands up today, and in fact, our current redirect policy, in bold text even, says, "There is no need to delete alternate name, conjectural, or spelling-mistake redirects unless they are specifically too silly or too general." It really couldn't be more clear than that.

I don't know how that proposal passed by such a wide margin, or why no one's attempted to overturn it since, but it's time to right this wrong that's haunted me for eighteen months.

Proposer: Deadline: May 16, 2019, 11:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal, my vote in the last one, and in fact literally the entire opposition in the last one.
 * 2) Reading this proposal has convinced me that those sorts of redirects are fine, as long as they help at least one person navigate the wiki. Per YoshiFlutterJump.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Yeah, I never really liked the idea of having those numbered redirects deleted. Someone unfamiliar with the franchise might want to know what the fourth Mario Kart game is and search up "mario kart 4" and find Double Dash!!, which is what redirects are for. There are still some "(series) (number)" redirects still lying around that were never taken care of either.
 * 7) Undeleting it like Blurp (Yoshi's Story) seems plausible, and redirecting is fine, but not outright deleted.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per Owencrazyboy9.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per all.

Comments
There has to be some sort of notability line we draw when it comes to making redirects. Otherwise you can use that "redirects are never useless" argument to justify all sorts of names like Mayro Kratt and Luggy. Who actually calls Mario Kart Double Dash by its numerical order on the franchise? Common sense is applied here, and I don't see the rationale for making numerical redirects convincing and they do not establish what sort of line we draw on redirects. Rather, it just seems this proposal is just "create redirects because we can". 18:51, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's all a matter of "Oh, I wonder what the fourth Mario Kart is...I'll just try typing in 'Mario Kart 4' and see what I get". Not everyone is going to have the immediate urge to type in "Mario Kart (series)" to see what the fourth Mario Kart was.  Why take them to the search page when we already know what they want?  It's inconveniencing our readers on purpose, which is counterproductive to our goal as a wiki.  And also, we don't have "Mayro Kratt" or "Luggy" because they're deemed too silly to be any use.  That's entirely irrelevant to this. - 19:08, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Except those are completely nonsensical terms, which is specifically what Redirects discourages. The numbered ones at least have some validity. 20:06, May 9, 2019 (EDT)

I guess that is a counterproposal? -- 11:39, May 10, 2019 (EDT)
 * You could call it that. This proposal aims to directly overturn the one from November 2017, and recreate all redirects that were deleted because of said proposal. - 12:18, May 10, 2019 (EDT)

Wouldn't these numbered redirects fall under being too general though? SmokedChili (talk) 04:16, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * A redirect that is too general would be one that could refer to multiple things (excluding certain abbreviation redirects). For example, MK2 could only refer to the second Mario Kart game, Mario Kart 64. Even then, as mentioned we already have other numbered redirects such as Super Smash Bros. 3.  06:03, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Okay, point taken. But both pages explaining redirects are mostly about inexact phrases and variations, and one issue I see with them is that they don't say anything about fan-made names or terms which is what "Super Smash Bros. 3" is. For being helpful to even just one person, this would also run at the risk of their search for "Mario Kart 2" causing them to misunderstand it as "Mario Kart 64 is Mario Kart 2" and at worst spreading that around because "it was on Mario Wiki". SmokedChili (talk) 10:30, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Redirects are not part of our knowledgebase.  They are merely a tool to assist someone in their search for a certain article without typing in the exact name, allowing them to skip the dreaded search page.  If someone wants to know what the second Mario Kart is, they're not going to type in "Mario Kart (series)".  No, the average person will type in "Mario Kart 2".  As I've said before, we already know where they want to go.  Why suppress the page from them? - 13:59, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * So now it's from "maybe only one person" to "the average person"? How do you know they wouldn't type something like "second Mario Kart" into the search bar instead? SmokedChili (talk) 14:57, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't know what you're talking about. "The average person" is certainly at least one person.  But if they type "second Mario Kart" they're clearly trying to go to the search page, whereas someone who types in "Mario Kart 2" likely thinks that's the actual name of the game, and clearly isn't trying to go to the search page.  There is a difference here. - 15:06, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * One person isn't an "average person" among who knows how many if he's the only one to search about "Mario Kart 2". If someone wants to search about "second Mario Kart", what's stopping us to make a redirect for that then? At least it has more basis in reality than "Mario Kart 2". SmokedChili (talk) 15:37, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

"this travesty" I'm hurt. I'm not sure if I want to support going back on my proposal yet, but I do think there should be a line drawn here somewhere. Fan-created terms specifically meant to be a redirect (not a conjectural term that was moved from a page and became a redirect) I don't think should be made. Using "Throw Block" as an example, it's actually pretty vague and it can refer to any throwable block. 15:44, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * As you said the conjectural part of the redirect policy is vague and should be cleared up, as it could refer either to long-time conjectural wiki names or all conjectural names. If it is cleared up then it would be much easier to determine which redirects should and should not stay. Thinking about it, I do now agree the Throw Block is too general and should be deleted, but I think that the numbered redirects could genuinely help someone, and thus should stay. Anyways, if the numbered Mario Kart redirects cannot stay, then the other unofficial numbered redirects such as Super Smash Bros. 3 cannot either. I also agree that a line should be drawn, but the problem is where. 16:45, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I wasn't really calling the proposal itself a "travesty", that was more directed toward its passing, as it still somehow passed despite the opposition having far stronger reasons than the support, and the fact that it wasn't exactly supported by policy. The policy does say, or at least imply, that unless a redirect is too silly or general, it's a redirect worth creating.  Maybe "Throw Block" does cross the line of too general.  But the numbered kart redirects could actually be useful to someone and definitely wouldn't take someone somewhere they wouldn't want to go.  There's nothing to be lost in making redirects, anyway.  So why not have them? - 16:56, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I am not sure where to draw the line, either. There are a few situations that are best handled case by case. And with the current policy, we shouldn't have too much trouble figuring out what stays and what doesn't. Numbered games seem like a good way to redirect people want to know the nth game of a series without them needing them to search the series pages, but it isn't necessary for all series. We don't need it where series entries are not important (like Mario Golf and Mario Tennis). It is best to treat redirects case by case. 17:25, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * This was brought up in the previous proposal, but due to Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 being numbered more casual fans may not know the more complex names in the series and assume that all games in the series are numbered, similar to the classic mainline Mega Man and Mega Man X series' games. I think that game series that already have some numbered entries should have numbered redirects regardless, but series with consistently unique names such as the ones you mentioned above would not really need numbered redirects except for maybe the first entry of those series if they have the series' title as their title such as how some people call the original The Legend of Zelda "Zelda 1". The redirect Super Smash Bros. 3 may not be needed, though, as due to the game's popularity pretty much everyone knows its actual name, Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Anyways, it is a good idea to treat redirects case-by-case. 17:51, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Perhaps the numbered redirects could be recreated, idk. They aren't exactly "fan-created" per se, I guess, considering MK7 and MK8 refer to previous titles. I do think a fan created term should not be created purely for redirect's sake, but that's a discussion for another time. 23:07, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

Just to clarify, what is the list of redirects you'd like to make and what would be the source for that list? Even though I have an idea for both the answers, I think having them explicitly given is very important for this proposal.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:20, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * If this passes, all redirects that were deleted in the last proposal will be recreated here. - 23:13, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * It'd be admins that'd impliment that proposal IMO, as they can undelete pages, so the previous histories of the redirect don't get lost. -- 03:57, May 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * There's no need to preserve the practically nonexistent histories of the redirects. It's fine, I can do it myself. - 14:30, May 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Eh, I don't see a problem with restoring them if need be. 16:12, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Decide on a phrase to describe crossover appearances with the Mario franchise
The way non-Mario character infoboxes describe their crossovers with Mario is currently inconsistent from page to page. For example, Squirtle's appearances with Mario are described as "crossovers with the Mario franchise", while Sonic the Hedgehog's are described simply as "crossover installments". The goal of this proposal is to decide on a particular formula from those available on the wiki. Here's the options:
 * Crossover installments: to me, this is too vague. It seems like it could refer to any crossover installment, not necessarily linked to Mario.
 * Mario crossovers: This is not too bad, but it puts too much emphasis on Mario, and the Super Smash Bros. games, for example, aren't all about Mario.
 * Mario franchise crossovers: Same as above, but it's more explicit as to what kind of "Mario" it refers to (not the character).
 * Crossovers with the Mario franchise: This seems to be the best way to put it, but the downside is that it occupies a lot of space in the infobox.
 *  (NEW) Mario-related media: Seems to be popular and frankly, it describes crossover appearances perfectly without making use of nerdy jargon ("crossover").

And, the guest star of the show:


 * Do nothing.

Feel free to add any other options that you can think of below.

A rather minor proposal, I know, but it's small changes like these that make a difference! Or not. Maybe I'm just an organizational maniac.

Proposer: Deadline: May 18, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Mario franchise crossovers

 * 1) My preferred option.

Crossovers with the Mario franchise

 * 1) I think this one would work

Mario-related media

 * 1) my preferred choice
 * 2) I think this one would work best as it would also work for characters who appear in non-crossover Mario games as cameos or as guest characters (Such as Pac-Man, whose first Mario-related appearance is Mario Kart Arcade GP, or the Final Fantasy characters in Mario Hoops 3-on-3).
 * 3) - I asked for this, so I'm voting for it. Per BBQ Turtle.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per BBQ Turtle.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per BBQ Turtle.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all.

Do nothing

 * 1) Per FanOfYoshi.
 * 2) I see no reason to change anything at all.

Comments
Would "Mario-related media" work as an option? @HEROMARIO, your vote is very vague. What does it mean? 15:35, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * I added it. 07:47, May 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * Why do we have to change anything at all? -- 13:19, May 13, 2019 (EDT)
 * It's always professional to find a rule for situations like these and be consistent with it. That said, I have a terrible time deciding things by myself unless I have someone else's opinion, so I made a proposal. There was once a proposal to remove the colon in title abbreviations used in the code of certain game-related nav templates. It might seem minor, but the punctilious nature of the proposal itself stresses that this wiki is (to a great extent) serious business. -- 19:27, May 13, 2019 (EDT)