MarioWiki talk:Naming

"European"
"European sources usually means the United Kingdom, but can include other countries where games are officially released in the English language." I don't understand. European media always comes multilingual. N64 games had a language selection, and GameCube, DS and Wii games use the language that your console is set to. A Wii disk is the same for the entire PAL region (Europe/Australia), just the packaging and manual may be different. - 11:16, 10 March 2011 (EST)

Not necessarily. Older games may only feature the language of the country it is released in, but I see your point about more recent games. I will omit that line.-- 12:24, 10 March 2011 (EST)

The most-common-titles policy
I don't like the new policy, its feels like discrimination to me! Just because we got more American views doesn't mean they have more priority. Why isn't this proposed before use? 16:28, 28 May 2012 (EDT)


 * It's not discrimination: that's reading too much into it. (the founder and owner of the wiki) decided the old naming method, wherein everything was North American-based, was better than the First English Name policy. I'm not sure if he posted his reasoning publicly, but what he told the admins was that the change is meant to make the wiki easier to find and use for the largest amount of readers possible. Most people know the NA titles, and will be searching for them on Google/whatever, and if we don't use those titles, we lose hits, which is bad. The users and guests are also mostly North American, and seeing as any title we use is going to seem wrong to a portion of the community, might as well try to inconvenience the least amount of people. Also, unless you're familiar with the First English Name policy and the release dates, the old method could seem a tad inconsistent, whereas using only one region's names is about as uniform as you can get. -  20:12, 28 May 2012 (EDT)

So... that's it...
You are 'americanizing' even more this webpage... that's not cool.


 * Just look above and read the paragraph. GreenDisaster 11:41, 30 May 2012 (EDT)

If our demographics change, we will use different titles.

Welcome to Mario Wiki USA Edition
Well, what can be said? This is none other than 'americanizing' the site. That is basicly 'Discrimination'. The site may have more New World viewers but i'm sure the numbers dom't multiple theirselfs litke there is nothing like The USA viewers are 10x more than European/australian viewers. And being american site builds up misleadings like now more people will think that magikoopa and Kamek is same thing. And by searching "ghost ship" I can find the "gholish galeon" page easily, there is no need to make every article American! I think next poll should be: "Are you PAL, NTSC or OTHER?" -- 03:10, 25 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Look at the second section on this page. I also explained it here, and gave a response to your earlier comment here, as well. There is no point in belabouring the issue further, because this isn't an "America-vs-the-world" thing, and the policy will not be changed. - 19:58, 25 August 2012 (EDT)

Can an admin please
Change Mole Folk to Mole (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)? -- 10:59, 5 August 2013 (EDT)
 * Thanks for pointing that out, but rather than merely updating the link, I replaced it with a better example altogether. - 16:20, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

Why is the Starshroom called a planet?
Honestly, it's a spaceship rather than a natural space object. I think it should be removed as an example from this page. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:42, 29 January 2014 (EDT)
 * Yes, that part of the policy should be updated, especially considering the recent re-evaluation of the term Mushroom World on the Wiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

Please change this sentence
"This type of name usually comes from beta elements or debugging." to "This type of name usually comes from unused data, developer interviews or development documents.". Because the current sentence is basically meaningless. --Hiccup (talk) 04:05, 25 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Thanks. --Hiccup (talk) 08:40, 25 June 2015 (EDT)

Name coverage
I am in the process of adding the French names of the locations of Paper Mario: Color Splash in the "Names in other languages" section. Some locations used different names for Europe and America (Mondo Woods = Forêt Wasabig (NOE) and Forêt Grochloro (NOA), but some locations used the same name, so I was wondering, if its the same name, how should we cover this? Should we add both, even if its the same and separate them by French (NOA) and French (NOE) or should we merge them together and just say "French". In my opinion, we should included both so this make it clear what is the name of both region.-- 19:47, 30 October 2016 (EDT)


 * Assuming you mean the template, you can use the Fre and FreM parameters if the name is identical in both regions, or FreE(M) and FreA(M) for European and Canadian French respectively.  21:34, 1 November 2016 (GMT)

Swoop
Since it is the current name, should the link to "Swooper" in the section about changing the names of articles be changed to "Swoop"? It seems odd to have an old name for a page in a section about changing the name of a page. -- 19:50, 12 February 2017 (EST)

Good catch. I've updated those titles.

20:00, 12 February 2017 (EST)

Error
It says "If an identifier is needed, the text in parenthesis is determined by:" in the identifier section. Parenthesis is singular, so it should be changed to "parentheses". PikaSamus (talk) 22:12, 18 April 2017 (EDT)

Source tiers 3 and 4
Looking through the list, the third source tier explicitly mentions Prima Game Guides from pre-2007, then afterwards makes no further mention of them. I realize that the fourth tier incorporates any other Nintendo-licensed media, which does include Prima Game Guides after 2007, but I feel as if it should be reworded to explicitly mention the guides. Source tier 3 only mentioning the guides pre-2007 can lead editors to believe that guides made after 2007 are not valid sources, which can lead to more conjectural titles. Would it be possible to reword it? 03:46, 2 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The Prima guides are officially licensed by Nintendo as of 2007, so I would think so. Perhaps concurrent with the Nintendo Power's point 2? 10:57, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names
So, according to the current rules, Prima guides are treated as more official than filenames, and Nintendo Player's Guides are treated as more official than Prima. However, considering the recent Hatopop/Cheep Cheep situation, as well as the Klamber/Scuttle Bug and Scorchit/Zeus Guy issues before it, I feel there should be an exception to the source priority rule if the "better" source's name is less specific and likely incorrect than one given by a "low-priority" source.

Proposer: Deadline: October 24, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) – I agree that a lower priority source may be used if happens to be more suitable/less confusing.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) per all.
 * 5) If by "better source" you mean unique or noncontradictory name, I agree. Per all.
 * 6) of course. And in my opinion, file names should always be preferred over other sources.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Considering I supported the Hatopop name, per all.
 * 9) - These are official Nintendo sources; this feels like a no-brainer to prioritize them above Prima guides.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Everyone seems to be voting for this, so why not? I'm gonna do it too. Per all. And plus, the naming policy confuses me anyway.
 * 12) It'd definitely help in certain scenarios (for instance, if one source refers to a new variety of Goomba as simply "Goombas" instead of, say, "Barbed Goombas").

Oppose

 * 1) Under those circumstances, a proposal should be used on a case-by-case basis, as it's subjective what the "better" name is in many circumstances. Particularly as Cheep-Cheep was a better name in that case :V
 * 2) Per Doc. It depends on the name.

Comments
@Doc: How was Cheep Cheep the better name? While it came from a higher priority source, it was more confusing than the current title. Niiue (talk) 05:44, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it was more understandable on the SMS template to a monolingual English-speaker than the Japanese one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:28, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I disagree. Most people would think it's talking about the more common enemy with that name if anything. Niiue (talk) 07:17, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But it came with an identifier. And there's only one other bird enemy in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:31, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Even so, it's still less confusing to just give it a unique title. Niiue (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

What is a confusing name? Examples are fine, but especially for a policy page, you need a concrete definition. 09:24, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

In the cases of conflicts between naming I think we should revise priorities, though. While I agree about the situation of PRIMA guides not always being reliable in the names (Bomb-ombs in Super Mario Sunshine are a good example..), Japanese Official Nintendo Guidebooks might reveal official names that are consistent - a case being that of Bats in Super Mario Galaxy, whose Japanese name 「バットン」 was consistent in Japanese among both the Official Nintendo Guidebook of Super Mario Galaxy, the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. and even the Super Mario Pia, the latter being published by Pia and written in collaboration with Nintendo, and that name definitely wasn't the name of Swoops, 「バサバサ」, which was instead the name suggested by the internal name. When an official name is consistently used, this shouldn't be overlooked beause of the internal name suggesting something else. Said internal names are derived from Japanese most of the times, anyway.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * For what it's worth, the internal names for Super Mario Sunshine are inconsistent with the Pia and Encyclopedia SMB, but are actually consistent with the English BradyGames and Versus guides, so somehow those two got a hold of the internal names. The files also make a point of using the "standard" Japanese name for the enemies' folders but then using the weird new names for all of the actual files (models, animations and whatnot). I could genuinely turn this into a splitting spree, Bomb-omb/Neji Bomb et al. 10:35, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

@Lcrossmk8: I strongly discourage you from voting only to join in the bandwagon. 00:14, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

Can we change the sentence regarding calling Swoops Bats?
It seems to have been directed at the SMG2 Prima guide, but since those have been split, could it be replaced with another example, for instance Crowber? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Thanks. I've put Crowber down.


 * 05:56, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

Naming hierarchy question
With the English release of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. coming out later this year, where would it fall on the hierarchy if there's contradicting names? For example, Bat (Super Mario Galaxy) is a pretty generic name, if the English release were to change it to something else hypothetically (like "Batton", the Japanese name or something), what would be the proper protocol there, would we change the name to the Encyclopedia one or keep the Prima name? BubbleRevolution (talk) 03:13, 2 March 2018 (EST)
 * These proposals set the precedent to use legacy names whenever appropriate, so if there's a contradiction between a strategy guide and Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., the original strategy guide would take precedence in most cases since it was released concurrently with its respective game. Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. will primarily be useful to replace foreign names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:40, 2 March 2018 (EST)

Capitalization and identifiers
If two subjects have the same name but different capitalization (e.g. Red Diamond (Luigi's Mansion) and red diamond (Wario World)), do they require identifiers? I've always been unsure about this one and I need to create an article that will cause a similar scenario, so I'm asking now. 18:55, 10 March 2018 (EST)
 * Yeah, I'd say so. Having just Red diamond and Red Diamond is not great. -- 18:59, 10 March 2018 (EST)
 * I agree. It would cause issues with the search function. 19:03, 10 March 2018 (EST)

Dr Mario

 * For example, Dr. Mario is a disambiguation page linking to all the other uses of the title, such as Dr. Mario (game) and Dr. Mario (character)

No longer true... - Reboot (talk) 07:06, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks, it's been changed. 07:25, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Honebon
Since Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia took out the pronunciation identifiers from Honebōn's name when "translating" it, a different example will probably be needed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Switched it to Kaibādo. 16:24, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Which itself has reason to be moved to "Kai bird." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:37, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Does it? That's not how the Japanese characters are written. 16:40, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * OK, "Kaibird," forgot how spaces for this sort of thing worked. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:50, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * That's a literal translation of the name, but it's not the letters the characters spell out. Is there a different example you want to use? 16:55, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Hm, maybe I was actually thinking about how "Hokuso" should be changed to "Hawks." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:27, 13 October 2018 (EDT)

Decide how to handle internal naming
As requested by proposer.

Ok, i've seen many internal naming in this wiki, and i'd like to open this. we have been with this multiple times, and while some of them are english, some of them are simple romanizations. Proposer: Deadline: February 25, 2019, 23:59 GMT Cancelled: February 19, 2019, 11:59 GMT
 * Option 1= This will affect the "Beamer" enemies
 * Option 2=This will not affect examples such as the Beamer enemies, but definitive romanizations will be marked as another language. Bakky, Pattan (i already did it for this one though) to name a few.
 * Option 3=The internal filenames will be considered english, and will not have the another language template.
 * Option 4=All internal filenames will be considered as romanized from something english, which was written in "kanji" for example, and will all have an another language template.
 * Option 5=The "loanworded" internal filenames are the only ones which will not have an another language template.

Consider "loanworded" names, including partly romanized as Japanese

 * 1) Second (and preferred) option, as some "Beamer" enemies are named in the encyclopedia, but we can't cite it. I don't know wether they are named in the Prima guide, but their internal filename is a romanization of their Japanese name.

Consider "loanworded" names english, and consider some internal filenames simply romanized

 * 1) Per proposal. It includes the examples i gave here.

Comments
I'm not sure if we can set a rule. Most of the times the internal names are Japanese names (not really romanized ones, Koopa is not the proper romanization of 「クッパ」, Kuppa, and Catherine is not the proper romanization of 「キャサリン」, Kyasarin), but there are exceptions, the most notable being the Super Mario Maker internal costume names, which were very frequently English names. We also have peculiar cases like Plessie's internal name, which is very likely based on English puns (Raidon for what is basically a nothosaur you ride on).--Mister Wu (talk) 09:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * You're right, in the sense that most internal filenames are romanized. -- 13:15, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Is this proposal really appropriate with this amount of options? 14:10, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I also feel like this proposal is more suitable as a mainspace proposal rather than a TPP as it's a major policy change that affects all of the wiki. 18:25, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * Nah, it's fine here since it really just applies to naming. But all of the internal names I've seen so far (that have been posted on the wiki, not from personal file digging) have been using English characters. So I'm not sure I understand what this proposal is going to change. 18:29, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * There's a difference between "using Roman characters" and "being an English name." Recall the Japanese playing cards that had romanized names. They aren't English names. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * The interesting part is that while in some cases you can see how the internal names are mirroring Japanese names in kana (e.g. Kinopico, where the co part refers to the Japanese 「子」, child) in quite a few other names they aren't really romanized names - they are more like the names that the Japanese kana want to represent, reagardless of whether they actually can or not (see Catherine's case, the Japanese name is「キャサリン」, which should be romanized as Kyasarin, but it actually wants to be a transcription of Catherine).--Mister Wu (talk) 20:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, i kinda agree. We can't cite the encyclopedia, and as "Whimp" is a name that originates from the wiki, the only lead is the Japanese name. The internal filename itself is a romanization of the Japanese name, and for some reasons (much like Starbag, it doesn't have the another language template. -- 00:47, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * Internal Naming? What? Luigistandrpg3.gif♠Grained Cargo 192♠ SPP - Luigi Animation.gif 13:29, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * It's to determine how to treat internal filenames, when using it as an article's name. -- 13:31, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Alex95, they're not only english letters, but these letters have also been used in other languages. -- 14:04, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * If no one else votes, would the proposal be listed as no quorum? -- 12:27, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * Yes. 20:40, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not so sure what the proposal is trying to accomplish by tackling "romanizations" in general. By definition, romanization entails the conversion of one writing system to the Roman/Latin script, and because much of it is passes in English, whether the developers are using "true" romanizations will often be indeterminate. Perhaps a better way to frame the discussion would be what to do when an internal name coincides with a known unlocalized name (e.g. Mini Wanwan), which is a more tangible method, and maybe consider the idea of implementing an "internal data" template for article titles; either way, this is too amorphous to have gone straight to proposal in my estimation. Also, since such a proposal is pretty broad, it would help a lot to get the full list of titles on the wiki that reference internal data, and know how each option would affect them. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:03, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * I attempted to make an "internal file name" template a while back, but never ended up doing anything in the end.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * My first option is on cases like Starbag, if you don't get. -- 12:26, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * If the idea is to move Petari back to Starbag, I vehemently disagree with giving Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia an inch after what it pulled. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * Pretty sure the idea is to give it the "another language" template or move it to Petapeta (the latter of which should be done anyway in accordance with policy), because it's not an English name by any description. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, exactly. Potentially the same for the more tenuous Cheep Cheep/Hatopop situation. -- 07:23, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Something as basic as Goomba isn't derived from an English word and direct transliterations do happen, but we can move Petari to Petapeta if that becomes the consensus, though I'm not sure why you seem to be validating Starbag and the other Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia names. Hatopop is trickier because it's not mentioned in official Japanese guides, "pop" adequately describes it, and it's not a Cheep Cheep in any way, shape or form. I agree there should have been a proposal first, but it's now covered by the above. Ultimately, the idea is to minimize the wiki's foreign titles, so I'm starting to think that the better approach might be to use the another language template for Japanese names we have to unofficially romanize ourselves, use a separate template for official internal data (which may or may not be romanized themselves), and leave it at that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:29, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * The example you brought up, the word that was used for the Goomba's name (along with Unagi and Sushi) is also an english word, and is given by localizers, not the original company. I'm not validating the Super Mario Encyclopedia's name, my idea was the one that Doc von Schmeltwick was sure of. -- 12:30, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * The Goomba section states that its name is derived from Italian and/or Hungarian. Also, whether a name comes from the company or localizer is irrelevant, since we're not putting a foreign language tag on, say, Super Mario Bros. Special anytime soon. What matters is the word itself, and the fact is that none of these are actually written in Japanese. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * So? Internal filenames are never intended to show up to players, and we're actually written in roman letters. -- 12:56, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Which is why they're considered last tier. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:59, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * This proposal, is to update it. -- 13:01, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Since they're last-tier, the Petapeta thing should have never even been a discussion. It should be moved to Petapeta. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * What about cases like Cuttacutta? It is onomatopoeic like many Japanese words, but as far as the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series is concerned, practically everything else is decidedly English. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:29, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Because the game was made by an american division, which most enemies had their english name (such as the Snifit) in their intenral filenames. -- 13:31, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * ^^^^^^^^ Additionally, SMG has filenames like Mogu for a mole, which are obviously Japanese and not English. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:37, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * An American division with several Japanese on staff; anyway, too many assumptions are made here for my taste as, for example, Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Mario Maker, whose core developers comprised entirely of Japanese, still used some English localizations in there. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:47, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that "Petari" isn't one of them. I personally think it should be based on relative consensus. Most DKJB internal names seemed English enough to work, but not SMG (showing that not even going by studio is a good rule, since theirs were the same). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:00, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Agreed. -- 06:51, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * While the "Petari" details can be moved to the foreign names template. -- 06:58, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * Still a very specific case for a proposal of this sheer scope, and it wasn't just one person who agreed with Petari over Petapeta. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2019 (EST)

As they are, I think it should be pretty obvious by now that options 3 and 4 are a bust, and the idea of "definite romanization" is rather loose, but can you further explain how exactly you define "loadworded" and what the practical difference is between all the other options? Also, isn't option 5 the same as option 1? And where's the "do nothing" or "case-by-case" option? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2019 (EST)

Can an admin cancel this for me? LinkTheLefty pointed out that i forgot an option, and, no decision was reached, so i can restart it at any time. -- 03:56, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Decide how to handle internal filenames: take 2
The fact that i'm restarting the proposal is that i forgot to add a "Keep-as-is" option. As we are currently deciding how to handle internal filenames, Petari is intended to be renamed into Petapeta, i'd like to reopen this.

Proposer: Deadline: March 5, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Consider "loanword" names, including partly romanized as Japanese

 * 1) My preferred Second option, as the "Beamer" enemies are named in the encyclopedia, but we don't cite it (as i checked in Google Books)

Consider "loanword" names english, and consider some internal filenames simply romanized

 * 1) Per proposal.

Consider all internal filenames english

 * 1) Out of all the proposal options, this is the one that most closely aligns with my preference - with the express addendum that we create an internal data template; otherwise, "all" is too much of a blanket statement, and the romanization options are too subjective as they are simply not working with a technical definition (as mentioned above), which is necessary for coherent, functional policy.

Add an "internal name" template

 * 1) Third, and preferred option.

Keep the current setup

 * 1) While I agree with a clearer naming policy for internal data in theory, none of these options are very practical, so I'd rather we continue to generally classify them as "development names" with room for deeper discussion on a case-by-case basis until a more objective approach comes along; as it is, the implementation of this proposal could only end up creating more problems than it solves.
 * 2) Since internal filenames can be either English or Japanese, I think this proposal is just too complicated for any other option to pass.
 * 3) - I'm not really seeing a problem with how we have things now. Internal name's aren't the highest priority on the naming list, but we use whatever it is named as in the file name regardless. Doesn't have to be in English.
 * 4) I feel it would make more sense to keep things the way they are, as I feel that the other options would over complicate things.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
LinkTheLefty is planning to rename "Petari" into Petapeta. -- 07:43, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * It being suggested as per the above comments doesn't necessarily mean I definitely plan on it since there was some disagreement on how to handle it in that subject's talk page. Also, I believe cancellation falls under rule 7: "No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:42, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * Not really. 09:12, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * I see. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * If the proposal was cancelled, it means no decision was reached, so a new proposal can be started immediately. 12:06, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * It almost seems like a loophole since one could say cancellation is a decision in and of itself, but I see it's been done. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Here was the template I came up with:  The title of this is official, but it comes from an internal file name. As such, it potentially reflects an early point in development that may not be the intended name by the final product, may be a developer nickname not intended to be officially used, and may not be in English. If an official name from an English source is found, the should be  to its appropriate title. -Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * Cool! Should i wait the proposal to pass, or i can create the template anytime soon? -- 02:09, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Given I made it, I should probably make it when I have permission from the higher-ups to. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Added a "add an internal filename template" option. -- 07:46, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'd remove "file" since that's not always true (possibly adjust it to "internal data" if that is a preferable general term). It is also slightly too wordy, so I'd suggest simplifying the two "intended" parts so that it flows as one concise point (could just remove the whole "developer nickname" bit because it would seem already covered by the prior "intended name" statement). Other than that, it looks good overall, though I'm not entirely sure if the last sentence is completely relevant anymore (ditto with the another language and conjectural title templates) because these proposals mean that it is no longer paramount. Anyway, if there is approval, I'll switch my vote. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:50, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * That says, i regret having voted "Do not allow the book the be cited" in the first place. I disapprove the red Urchin being split under the name "Land Unizo", as "Land" is "loanword", and Unizo is its Japanese name. Anyways, like i said, i don't think that a SME counterproposal to cite part of the book would work, given the margin of votes of the original. -- 07:55, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not even sure that's sufficient because, while we have a pretty good grasp of article titles directly taken from us, we don't know the extent of which was from elsewhere. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:11, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, you kinda misunderstood what i was asking. I was actually asking if we should make it at anytime, or only when the proposal passes. -- 12:22, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Either when it's given admin approval or the proposal passes in that manner, which ever comes first (if at all). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Will it affect most of the Donkey Kong Jungle Beat enemies, such as Bakky, and some Super Mario Galaxy enemies, such as the "Beamer" enemies, and Mandibug Stack to name a few? -- 04:57, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * Forgot to mention... @LinkTheLefty, you see the "Kassar Brock" internal filename you used, to say that the Message Block's english name is "Perry Block"? Well, no, this doesn't prove anything, as it is a romanization, and Nintendo of America did not give them a name. Speaking of it... Is it really the Message Block, or is it another type of block that acts similarly? Maybe check in the Shogakugan guide, to see if it calls them Message Block, or Kassar Brock, no? -- 05:06, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * "Perry Block" came from an earlier edit of the article, so adding a reference was fine (though maybe should have been added to be safe). The names aligned, so I believed the original editor was using legit info. Unfortunately, the Super Princess Peach Shogakukan guide is rather basic and doesn't mention it. Anyway, change "internal filename" to "internal name" for the reason I explained, and I'll agree to your template option. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:47, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * What should we do about it? Should it stay on Message Block, or should it have its own article? It seems to reference more the umbrella than the Message Block, given its internal filename romanization. -- 06:48, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * That should be a discussion on the Message Block talk page. Please remove "file" from name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:50, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * Problem is, by definition of "internal," any name from within the game itself in any capacity is technically "internal." Mayhap "internal coding name" or "internal data name?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:28, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * I think "internal data" is a valid alternative, though now I'm starting to wonder what other examples of development names we use and if such a template would be better suited more broadly. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:51, 21 February 2019 (EST)

 The title of this is official, but it comes from a pre-release source or internal data. As such, it potentially reflects an early point in development or developer nickname that may not be the intended name by the final product, and may not be in English. If an official name from a post-release acceptable English source is found, the should be  to its appropriate title.
 * I still think the "developer nickname" thing is valid to an extent. For a non-Mario example, a Crash Bandicoot game apparently had two enemies given vulgar insults for internal names. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * There's also this. Niiue (talk) 20:28, 21 February 2019 (EST)

@Toadette the Achiever, please note that the letters used are not only english letters, but are used in multiple languages. -- 10:22, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * Like i said, i added an "internal filename template" option, for those who are interested, and think that most internal filenames are romanized. -- 02:18, 22 February 2019 (EST)

-- 02:32, 22 February 2019 (EST)

Done! -- 02:47, 22 February 2019 (EST)
 * Worked on the template. I kinda feel that this proposal should be cancelled and immediately putted into effect. -- 10:06, 22 February 2019 (EST)
 * The only exception i can see is the Mario vs Donkey Kong enemies. -- 10:35, 22 February 2019 (EST)
 * Great job, stealing a template from someone else's private workspace, after I told you specifically above to wait for me to make it if the admins say it should be made. >_> Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:30, 22 February 2019 (EST)

Reopening up something: Source priority proposal and regarding the above
So regarding the above's first proposal, we are sometimes using the internal filename as a priority when each guides refer the subject to as a thing with the same name. But regarding that, i wonder wether that should have happened. Should this proposal really have passed, given that i would have liked that it depends guide by guide for the more and the less specific names. -- 09:38, 10 March 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, this discussion isn't only about the source priority proposal. -- 06:27, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
 * I'm not folllowing the issue. The conjecture and another language templates are written with the express goal of ideally having minimal usage whenever possible, and the internal data provides a method to meet that purpose regardless of the source priority exception proposal due to falling under development names. Personally, I would have preferred to do things on a more case-by-case basis in retrospect, but I don't think the Land Unizo situation (a proposal) should be the catalyst for readdressing it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:35, 11 March 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the Ground Urchin and the source priority proposal: I wouldn't say that "Land" would make it more english. The proof that land is a loanword, because the two Super Mario Land game articles didn't have the foreign names template applied to a section, and... I'm repeatedly telling you that the internal filename partially contains the Urchin's Japanese name.

Regarding internal filenames: I see that we have the "Beamer" enemies. Next are Jump Guarder (which isn't a "Beamer" derivative) and Fire Pressure. Regarding the "Beamer" enemies... Why did you remove the another language template and outright use the romanized Japanese filenames as a "proof" that it is the subject's english name? Same should be done with Fire Pressure. Regarding Jump Guarder: it could have been kept as Jump Garage, given that internal filenames are rather low priority. -- 08:56, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * Just to clarify one point: just because it's from a Japanese source, it doesn't meant that the name is in Japanese language. If you look at the HUD of the Japanese version of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga or Paper Mario: Color Splash, there are a few English words there. Similarly, some Japanese names are actually just English names.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:46, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
 * Please note that there is a difference between an english name, and a romanization. I do not have particular issues with Electric Pressure, though, i kinda feel saying that it is the subject's english name is basically citing the encyclopedia... I'd have liked to override the source priority exception proposal I know at least one example that has been moved from its correct english name to its romanized Japanese filename for far more arbitrary reasons.  Regarding that failed idea, it'd be better to wait for a consensus to agree for the internal template (which is a can of worm, and i'm a bit stressed about reopening it) Also, i wouldn't say that "Hepburn romanization" would make it more english. -- 08:00, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think it's better to explain what I mean. Fire Pressure is not the Hepburn romanization of 「ファイアプレッシャー」, said romanization of is Faia Puresshā. The thing is, the Katakana here aren't giving a unique name, they are trying to transcribe in Japanese what is an English name used in Japan, Fire Pressure. Not all the internal names are romanized, quite a few of them aren't romanized names at all. As an example, Catherine, Killer, Haamer Bros. are all English names that are used in Japan. They don't even have an exact match in Katakana, as you can see from their actual Hepburn romanization: Kyasarin, Kirā, Hanmā Burosu. The equations name used in English speaking countries = English name and name used in Japan but written in Latin script = romanized name are imprecise and, in the case of the second equation, often wrong.--Mister Wu (talk) 16:55, March 28, 2019 (EDT)
 * To clarify on the red Urchin internal filename part, i used "While it contains an english loanword, it wouldn't be much of an english name due to reusing the Urchin's Japanese name", not "It's english but it came from Japan" at all, which is what i tried to clarify earlier in the proposal. -- 11:56, March 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Which is more or less the same argument used on this talk page. -- 12:48, March 29, 2019 (EDT)
 * Anyways, given how we split the red Urchin, i kinda feel a counterproposal on the source priority exception should be made via Proposals, then we'd see what to do about that failed idea. -- 13:07, March 31, 2019 (EDT)
 * Another thing LinkTheLefty... Why did you remove the "another language" template on the Beamer enemies pages, and use their romanized Japanese filenames as a "proof" of being their english name? Regarding Jump Guarder, i suggested to move it back to Jump Garage given that the internal filenames are a low priority, and we have cases we already dealt with. For the source priority exception, i made a proposal to make a more case-by-case basis. Then, we'd decide what to do on that failed idea. -- 10:38, April 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * We've tried to explain legitimate romanization to you multiple times (even within this very section), and I've already mentioned that these instances are most certainly unambiguous English words. I reiterate: As a general rule of thumb, if it's legible to an English reader and doesn't require a translation, then chances are, it's English. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:55, April 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, the reason i made a proposal for a more case-by-case basis on the source priority proposal on Proposals is because i don't want to flood this page with more proposals. Also, regarding that failed idea, it's better to wait until a consensus agrees with that. -- 10:59, April 2, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding romanized filenames, i saw your edits on Karikari and Kamikami here and here, which you unexplainedly used the romanized Japanese filenames as a "proof" of being their english name. I later readded the another language template to both. -- 02:38, April 12, 2019 (EDT)
 * To be more specific, i ask you a question on why did you do that. -- 07:53, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * You are asking about outdated edits which, after more recent discussions, I no longer support. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:08, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Still i'd like to make another counterproposal attempt for the source priority exception... Regarding the red Urchin, i wasn't clear on that part. I meant to say "Please note that Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins use "Land" in both their English name and their Japanese name." Regarding that Propeller Piranha édit, it wasn't really clear about what you were trying to do there. I thought you were making obvious that they were the same as previous iteration, while it was obvious. And no, i wasn't validating the encyclopedia in the Petapeta talk page, i just said i've round nothing about new names. Also, what did you mean by the red Urchin's internal filename was "translated", when it contained Unizo, which is the Urchin's Japanese name ? -- 06:49, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I was cleared up on the usage of "Propeller Piranha" (which technically didn't have the name "Hootie the Blue Fish" in Yoshi's New Island) by Doc von Schmeltwick, and the fact is that "Land" could have been usable in lieu of "Riku" for Urchin/Unizo; it probably would have been treated as a partial translation like Kiba Pig Popo, but you're asking about a multiple-choice proposal that passed one way fair and square (with an option that I supported as an alternative no less). It's not a current issue or really relevant anymore. I'd be open to revisiting the source priority exception, but you should figure how this affects current exceptions and how to address them. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:04, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Should be a more case-by-case basis? Regarding that Urchin thing, given the wording used ("based on the plain English internal name"), i misunderstood what you were trying to do there. (I really shouldn't flood this talk page with more proposals, since it should be a discussion for that internal filename template. -- 09:55, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * Regarding the "legible to an English reader" thing, please note that there is this template, so they Can understand what it means. Also, what does "Iga" means in Mini Iga? -- 09:58, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * I find it still relevant because i have issues with some internal filenames. Maybe one specifically for the template? Regarding the source priority exception, i'd think it'd be more reasonable to make a proposal for it to have a more case-by-case basis, given what you said about current exceptions (which makes me think of Scorchit and Klamber). -- 13:03, April 26, 2019 (EDT)
 * @LinkTheLefty : "(with an option that I supported as an alternative no less)": Not really? There was a major disagreement to change anything. "It's not a current issue or really relevant anymore."  Yes , it's  still  an issue, and it is  still  relevant, because like i said, i still particular issues with certain internal names. -- 05:04, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, we're lucky enough that most of the Donkey Kong Jungle Beat enemies's internal filenames are translated (like Rolling Frog, Black Fairy, Snow Mole). Some of them are not acurate translation, but are still plain english (like Pea Frog, within the "Puchi" being mistranslated as "Pea" rather than "Petit") And some of them are literally just romanization of their Japanese name (Karikari and Kamikami). -- 05:11, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yes really, I did support the current title for the land version of Urchin; the comments were veering off-topic and I see you brought it up again on the blue Lava Bubble talk page. Please let it go, it's a done proposal that actually ended to both our satisfaction. Anyway, it has been decided now that direct romanizations like Garigari are considered Japanese, and translating "Puchi" as "Pea" (obviously referring to size just like Mame Kuribō) isn't a horrific choice. If anything, it should make it more evident that a decent amount of those names weren't direct romanizations, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:20, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * I don't really have an issue with Pea Frog. -- 08:21, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, the red Urchin isn't really relevant anymore at the time being. -- 08:22, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
 * Then your wording doesn't work, as i thought you were talking about the proposal i made regarding how to handle internal filenames, which is what is still relevant. Also, maybe a proposal specifically for the template? Regarding the other extent of the encyclopedia (which i don't care anymore), it'd be best to wait for Super Mario Maker 2's release, since i plan to split the Innertube and Ice Skate variants of the Goomba at some point. (see the Goomba talk page) Regarding my Mini Iga issue a while back, Special:Diff/2602342 was also because "Iga" has a Japanese root, unlike "Mini". -- 08:35, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * The possible Japanese root of "Iga" doesn't really fit the context of the enemy, so it comes across as a . LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:58, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
 * Is it really a bad idea to restart another proposal regarding the above? -- 15:25, June 19, 2019 (EDT)

Capitalization rule
According to Naming: "The words in the title must be capitalized the same way they are from the source, unless it is a proper noun. Proper nouns are capitalized no matter how it is in the source...Exceptions to the proper noun rule can be made if there is some special reason why the proper noun is uncapitalized." What exactly is the purpose of this rule? I think it's unnecessarily confusing, and nowadays can lead to totally avoidable situations such as this one. Why not just have the words capitalized the same way they are from the source, period? It just doesn't seem to be completely applicable for official names anymore unless it is revised to be more about creating a conjectural title. LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:10, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, that... doesn't make any sense. I've never seen us capitalize something against how it shows in a source. 17:17, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think that's for like if someone's name is lowercase'd or something. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:52, April 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * You mean like if Mario's name was written as "mario" in an off place? I think we can reasonably deem such cases as typos. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:04, April 26, 2019 (EDT)

The usage of old names in articles regarding Japanese names
Do Japanese names count as well? I'm asking this due to the ongoing Bull's-Eye Banzai situation (see talk page), the Nipper Dandelion, the Piranha Pod, and the Clampy, the 3 latter of which are going against policy. Also, another question... Is the Clampy mentioned in the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 2 guides? If so, what are the options? If so, what are they called? -- 10:33, July 22, 2019 (EDT)
 * Neither guide mention it at all
 * One guide calls it generically "clam", while the other guide doesn't mention it.
 * Both guide generically call it "clam"
 * One guide gives it a name, and the other calls it "clam"
 * One guide gives it a name, and the other doesn't mention it at all.
 * Both give it a name
 * Or should we make a counterproposal on the usage of old names in articles proposal instead? -- 11:14, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * For the Nipper Dandelion, a proposal has decided so, so i think another proposal is needed to counter that, so we can use its Japanese name on its appearances prior to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. -- 12:23, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Naming policy does not address special cases of subjects receiving an English name sometime after they've gone by a foreign name, so what we have here is an "unwritten rule" wherein a foreign language name is treated akin to an unofficial conjectural title as an exception to chronological consistency due to the Nipper Dandelion proposal. As for Clampy, the closest mention in on page 130 of the first game's guide: "That clam against the outer seawall snaps its shell open and shut, taunting the little penguins with its prize. Mario must swim over to the clam and wait for it to open up. When it does, swim forward and pick up the Star Chip." That's why I also disagree with removing Clampy's original reference - yes, it's an "in-game name", but it didn't receive its current name until much later and even then it didn't appear in-game until way afterwards, making it misleading. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:05, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think a proposal is needed to determine wether Japanese names are acceptable in the old names. -- 16:26, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * The thing is, a Japanese (or any other language) name is not the old name of a subject, it's a subject's name in another language. I strongly oppose this idea, and stand by my thoughts during the Nipper Dandelion fiasco; "Passing off a Japanese (or other language) name as a subject's former name in the same vein as Bloober/Blooper or Toadstool/Peach feels misleading. It was never called that in English, we just had to fall back on it because there was no other option, and documenting it as a subject's historical name just doesn't seem right." Bull's-Eye Banzai, Nipper Dandelion, Piranha Pod, and Clampy are all perfectly acceptable names, and ignoring those names for certain games just because they didn't have a name at the time is ridiculous. -- 17:04, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Agreed. 17:06, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * I'll reiterate my response as well: "It is not explicitly disallowed in policy (note that the use of an English name "regardless of the source" is in reference to the title of the article, which is separate from using legacy names whenever appropriate), and Japanese and English name changes certainly do not have to coincide with each other." Besides, it seems we already have this idea in practice right now with certain articles like the Mad Scienstein, which we refer to as Arewo Shitain-hakase in reference to Wario Land 4. Of course, you can say that is a unique case since they are sort of like different "forms" of the same subject (and because the character originated from elsewhere), but I'll add that Bull's-Eye Banzai's case is also a little different from Nipper Dandelion, Piranha Pod, and Clampy because it did have a name in use, just not a very intuitive one. So really, the current implementation is on a case-by-case basis, though I think policy should be clearer about it regardless. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:21, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * I think the B-E Banzai should be "King Bill" in that section because it's an English name and "Clampy" should be referred to as such throughout, as the file name for a JP-developed game is nowhere near on the same "tier" of "English-ness" as "Clampy" by any measurement, and treating them as equal is absurd. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:28, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Agreed with LinkTheLefty. -- 18:45, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Also, out of curiosity, what is the Clampy's internal filename in Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Glaaxy 2? -- 18:49, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * Whoops, I wasn't really paying attention when I mentioned Bull's-Eye Banzai and just listing off the enemies mentioned, yeah that's clearly a different situation altogether and doesn't really have anything to do with this. I still stand by my point for the other three. Mad Scienstein is a bit of an odd situation and should be an exception rather than the rule. -- 18:52, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
 * What about Subcon (species)? -- 04:17, July 25, 2019 (EDT)