MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New Notice Template: refrequest
Currently, there is only one template dedicated to pages that have unsourced information, which is. However, this template is meant for tagging singular, specific instances of uncited facts in a page. My proposal is that we create a new notice template to tag articles that, in general, have multiple instances of unsourced information throughout and need citations added to them. The tag would have the tag date added to it with  and could be added to a specific article section with , similar to  and , and the tag would also add the article to a category, probably Category:Citation Needed. For example, the article on Nintendo literally has absolutely no references/citations in the article at all; rather than adding after every single individual unsourced piece of information, it would be much easier to add a notice to the top of the page indicating that the page as a whole is in need of citations. It's worth mentioning that Wikipedia itself has 2 notice templatesjust like this, as well as a refneeded template.

I actually attempted to create this template last night, but it was deleted since it was created without permission. You can see what the notice would look like here.

Proposer: Deadline: May 6, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * Eh, I don't see the harm in creating this template. Some articles could fine uses for it, specifically the glitch articles where it could list a very specific problem that rewrite template couldn't. Having a template like this can easily tell editors that the article needs better sources at a glance, and while the usage of this template is rather niche it would still serve a purpose. I'd support, because I don't see the downsides of having an extra template for citations.
 * 1) This is a good idea, and is better than repeatedly using the refneeded template. Plus, if Wikipedia has it, so should we.
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per all
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all. It won't hurt to have it.
 * 6) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) I'm sure no one else will join me, but I really think this is unnecessary. I do agree that pages like Nintendo should have more sources, although mainly just in the history section, but I don't think a garish template at the top of the page is best for an otherwise fine article. Same with the glitch pages, in all honesty I see no issues with the  being used in relevant areas. Also, should the proposal pass, I massively oppose the creation of a new category for it. It's asking for the exact same thing as Category:Citation needed, just on a more large-scale situation.
 * 2) Per Yoshi876. I held off on voting for a while, but I really don't see the need for more than one template calling for the same thing.  asks for a specific source, whereas this would cover the whole page, which I can see getting confusing as it wouldn't be clear exactly what needs to be sourced. And having both templates on the page would just look terrible and be redundant.

Comments
Wikipedia has a different policy than us when it comes to creating citations though. We're far more lenient with trusting the userbase on information they have gained from playing video games. The only articles this would be really useful in are articles dealing with real world matters, like reception sections, development, rarely trivia sections, legacy, etc which are very few articles on this wiki. I don't think this template would be as useful as it is in other wikis and having just refneeded actually works (and most of the time when we come across that, we usually just outright delete it if people can't source their claims). 14:14, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * For example, Wikipedia does not count YouTube as a reliable source, while we do, as long as the video is relevant to the questioned info. If anything, there could be a "better source needed" tag for sources that don't necessarily prove the into cited. 15:04, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * You mean like this? Niiue (talk) 03:50, 1 May 2017 (EDT)

My only concern with an additional template is we already have and we could do something more clever with it. Is there any way to put an alert at the top of the page automatically by editing the already existing template? -- 18:55, 1 May 2017 (EDT)

@Yoshi876: The point of a "garish" template is to direct editors to the main problem of the article, as being unsourced is clearly not fine. If it is being "garish", it's doing its job exactly as it is intended of informing readers of bad problems. In fact, I think it's even uglier on the flipside to what we're currently doing seeing the all over the place in the article (some articles can be mostly devoid of necessary cited sources) instead of all of those issues being congested into one template that does its job of immediately pointing out readers that a good chunk of statements that isn't sourced. It immediately notifies the reader, rather than the less apparent template. But this is an argument from an aesthetics point of view, which is, in itself, fallacious; we intentionally designed those templates to be hideous, garish, and ugly in the first place, you can't really fault it when we designed it that way to begin with. Though the new category proposed isn't such a great idea that I pretty much agree with. 15:38, 2 May 2017 (EDT)
 * A lot of our articles are unsourced, as you say we trust editors from what they find in game. Articles like Nintendo and Sega I think should be better sourced, but I don't think a template like that at the top of the page is the correct way to do so, especially since much of the information is likely to come from the same place, so in all honesty I think a would suffice rather than a template at the top, especially when not everything is going to need be sourced. I can see the point with glitch pages, but in all honesty I think a better policing system is required, rather than a template.
 * And that's why I said that its purpose is niche, but the niche purpose fills a role that the rewrite template doesn't necessarily cover. A lot of articles on the wiki can benefit from this, and this additionally includes sections where a template like this is necessary, and while it's not a lot of articles and only some sections, it's a purpose that's there (many reception sections, such as Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's, needs references). For the glitch page, some glitches can be really sworn to be true but the glitch just happened at a bad time and bad place where you couldn't capture it (though I think better glitches are those that can be replicated, sometimes glitches are caused by faults in the CD and we don't count those). Also, you're making assumptions about Nintendo's article. You're saying that it's "likely" that the information in Nintendo's article comes from one source, but that is not necessarily true in cases like these. Some details you read and some links in between events can easily come from multiple sources, try reading any article on Wikipedia, you'll understand what I mean. 16:10, 2 May 2017 (EDT)
 * My main thing with the Nintendo article is that, for me at least, not everything in it needs references. Having editing a fair few Wikipedia articles, and using sources, I am well aware that information can come from multiple sources, but in Nintendo's case what we have, is highly likely that there's a History of Nintendo website out there that can give us the needed reference. I can see the uses of the template, but I don't like the form is takes, perhaps something like would be better. That way it draws attention to the issue, but isn't so in your face about it, because I do trust the majority of our editors, and so I believe the information is valid, but could be improved by being backed up; and it's not necessarily as bad as a poorly written article, or one that lacks images.

Removals
None at the moment.

Discourage OGG Extension (Not Format)
The *.ogg extension is a generic extension to describe the *.ogv and *.oga file formats. To put that into perspective, that would be like clumping all *.jpg, *.png, and *.gif file extensions to be under *.img or something *.html, *.xml, and *.rtf formats to be included with what we expect of the *.txt extension. Yes, those files all contain easily readable text if opened in Notepad, but it would be very hard to tell each file apart if all HTML, XML, and RTF files all had the TXT extension instead. To make things more easily identifiable on MarioWiki, I propose that *.ogg be a discouraged extension for a file of this type when uploading. Sure, MediaWiki can detect the MIME type regardless of extension, but that's not immediately clear when sifting through categories.

Xiph.Org Foundation, the developers of OGG, recommend the extensions I am proposing. VLC Media Player already registers all known extensions of this standard. My guess is back in the day, OGG was just audio (such as DX-Ball 2) but things were getting more complex so they needed to have a better extension to represent the complexities of the standard and discourage the old extension.

To be clear, I am not looking to discourage the format, just the one extension of the format. OGV and OGA are perfectly safe. There are around 1,000 files to check and move. Let's get them changed before we end up with a insurmountable amount of files to make changes to. I think Pywikibot can do this stuff automatically.


 * Files tested to be moved successfully:
 * File:SMS Opening.ogg to File:SMS Opening.ogv
 * File:VBWL-Title Screen Theme.ogg to File:VBWL-Title Screen Theme.oga


 * Categories to sift through (recommended order to do them in):
 * Category:Fair use video samples
 * Category:Fair use music samples


 * Affected templates that need consideration:
 * - Update it to allow for OGV and OGA as well? Code for row one but apply similar code for each row after it:
 * - Behaves like  but for OGV only
 * - Behaves like  but for OGA only
 * - Only works for files with extension OGG. Deprecate it?


 * Related proposals:
 * Proposals/Archive 29

Proposer: Deadline: May 02, 2017, 23:59:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) My browser (at least the one I use the most as I also have Google Chrome, but I not really going to mess with ogg) doesn't even support OGG, OGA, or OGV. But, OGA and OGV are very different from each other. Banning use of OGG for both audio and video sounds good. But, what about applications if they ever become part of this wiki? What will happen to those? (I am only asking to point out all possibilities.) As for vandels that happen during this, there is a option not to show/hide bots which I have chosen to hide them and this is the only thing I have chosen to hide due to when bots work, it makes a lot of changes reflected on Recent Changes. Overall, I will support this decision.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Nothing wrong with encouraging a better extension than a blanket one. The proposal previously supported a complete ban on .ogg which was too extreme for my tastes, but this is something I could get behind.
 * 8) I'm now convinced that this proposal will succeed. Per Baby Luigi and my comment below.
 * 9) If this simplifies life for the Wiki editors and staff, I support the idea. It is recommended by the Xiph.Org Foundation anyway.
 * 10) I'm in the same boat as Yoshi; my Browser (Firefox is what I'm using currently) doesn't even support .OGG files. I definitely support this idea.

Oppose

 * 1) There is apparently no technical difference between .oga and .ogv, while there are differences between .png, .jpg, .gif, etc, which renders that point in the proposal moot. I can't really imagine a scenario where only having .ogg would hinder the wiki in any aspect, and besides, .ogg files are relatively infrequently uploaded and used here. Banning the .ogg extension in place of .ogv and .oga seems like a lot of hassle for little benefit, as like you said, thousands of files would need to be moved; however, even more articles than that would have to be edited in order to correctly reflect the moved files, which is a pretty big task even with bots. This is a good idea on paper, but the benefits of implementing this seem to be outweighed by the sheer level of editing that needs to be done across every article that uses .ogg files.
 * 2) Per Lord Bowser. It indeed sounds rock-solid on paper, but if you think more deeply about it, why would it even be necessary to ban one extension when the two umbrella extensions work very similarly to each other, yet are used differently? If anything, I say we ban OGA and OGV because sometimes having less options can actually benefit and relieve more than harm. Unless you can give some other reason for banning OGG, I'm afraid I'll have to oppose.
 * 3) The idea to split the sound files and video files into their own compartments sounds like a good idea on paper, but I think the creation of another category specifically dealing with .OGV versions of .OGG would be more useful in the long run, as we don't have to bend backward to change this rather common file extension across the wiki. As the above two stated, I think too much energy required is worth the hassle of what amounts simply a name change with very little benefit to it whatsoever. Furthermore, .OGG is the default extension for many programs I use such as VLC and Audacity, and I think it's just too much of a hassle going through the extra step of renaming the extension to meet these proposed standards. If you want to rename extensions from .OGG to .OGA or .OGV, no one is stopping you, since that's technically allowed, but I don't support an official, outright ban on .OGG formats either.

Comments
Sort of related...do we still need ? I thought browsers supported this by default. -- 17:43, 25 April 2017 (EDT)
 * With HTML5 supported video playback with the version of MediaWiki MarioWiki uses, that feature seems worthy of . -- 18:01, 25 April 2017 (EDT)

And what exactly is the difference between .oga and .ogv? Is it really significant enough to warrant banning the .ogg extension? This should really be further elaborated upon for those less experienced. 03:01, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Technically, no difference between *.ogg, *.oga, and *.ogv. They are all defined by one standard, as I linked at the very beginning of the proposal. For MarioWiki, it would make maintenance easier by making all files by the standard easily identifiable by file extension rather than by MIME type. We should assign *.og a  for  a udio, assign *.og v  for  v ideo, and forbid *.ogg rather than use the extensions interchangeably with audio and video data streams. By posing these restrictions, we can integrate and  better than what is currently being done with the restrictive  for *.ogg files only. -- 04:33, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * No article editing required because the templates force .ogg, .ogv, and .oga for, , and respectively. Only one edit will take place, on . The rest is moving. You don't specify the extension if you use the template. Not sure why but OK. All that needs to be done is the move bot work, which I have my credentials hooked to, so this work is all me. I have done thousands of edits before at a time with Category:Beta Images by moving the remaining hundreds of images to Category:Pre-release and unused images. It got done in two hours or so. If a vandal runs rampant during the transition, I immediately stop the bot so that way Special:RecentChanges doesn't render the vandal unnoticed. -- 17:33, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

, this is just a browser issue. Chrome supports MP4, WebM, and OGG/OGV/OGA. Internet Explorer just MP4 (automatically) and WebM (with a codec installation by Google). For some reason, Internet Explorer forces you out of being able to play OGG/OGV/OGA. Just open up the file in an external application, such as VLC Media Player.

Applications? You mean like *.exe, *.zip, *.rar, *.7z? That's 's decision and I don't blame him for it.

People have brought up to flag my account as a bot temporarily but I don't use the bot often enough for it to be worth it. -- 18:21, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * When I say applications, I am referring to something else the OGG covers which can be viewed on the Wikipedia site provided. 18:26, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm not entirely sure how MarioWiki can take advantage of those added perks of the OGG standard. Because of how the four media templates are coded, we just create additional templates for each extension and amend the switch.


 * .ogg
 * .ogv
 * .oga
 * .ogx
 * .ogm
 * .spx
 * .opus


 * If I really had my way with the four templates, I would delete the subpages and code everything into . -- 18:56, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

Xiph.Org Foundation recommends the extensions I am proposing. -- 18:56, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

Again, I'll be doing the work to get things up to standards. It's a one time deal. Title changed so the file extension is acceptable but should be moved to a better extension. -- 20:39, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah...dissuasion is usually better than an outright ban. 21:02, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * @Wildgoosespeeder, I've read everything, and I understand what you want to do, but I don't entirely understand why. First, you mention that "it would make maintenance easier by making all files by the standard easily identifiable by file extension rather than by MIME type." From an organizational standpoint, it makes sense, but what do you mean by "maintenance," and how does keeping the .ogg extension currently complicate things? Second, you said that "by posing these restrictions, we can integrate and  better than what is currently being done with the restrictive  for *.ogg files only." Is there only an organizational benefit here, or am I missing the bigger picture?
 * Proposal now has a reason to move over each file to the extension based on standards by Xiph. Consider each subcategory of Category:Media by game. They contain a mixture of audio and video under the extension OGG in most cases (only five uploaded files are up to Xiph's extension standards). I also explain a better example with text files why keeping the OGG extension is a bad idea. Right now, is calling  only 30 times. With the switch code I can implement very easily,  could call, , or  depending on the   specified. The OGA and OGV templates were proposed, passed, and created, just never properly implemented. Also, Media/OGA and Media/OGV isn't transcluded very much compared to Media/row. The special thing about templates and categories is that if you edit the template to change its category, it affects all places it is transcluded, autosorting everything in Category:Pages with media files to go into Category:Pages with audio files and Category:Pages with video files. -- 21:55, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

, you don't even need to do it through Audacity. You can just use Windows Explorer (or equivalent file manager) to change the extension or redlink with the OGA/OGV extension and upload the source file that kept OGG. File contents doesn't change. Just the file name extension. This is similar to how you can upload a file with the *.jpg extension onto a file using *.jpeg because File:New Nintendo 3DS and New Nintendo 3DS XL.jpg can exist separately. -- 21:09, 27 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Just as I suspected. So it's just like changing a notepad file to a .bat file, nothing would really change if I edited the extension. Thanks for clearing that up. 22:55, 27 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Exactly. To make it even more clear, MediaWiki would have thrown an error if I were to move an PNG image to a page with a JPEG extension for example. I tested OGV and OGA moves with two OGG files, described in the proposal, and MediaWiki didn't throw any errors. -- 02:14, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

Create Template:Pmitem-infobox
I've noticed that pages for Paper Mario series items don't really have a consistent format, usually having either Template:Item-infobox or Template:Recipe-Infobox. The problem is, neither template works very well, especially in terms of documenting the items' descriptions between games (the item infobox looks bad with multiple descriptions stacked on each other, and the recipe infobox doesn't even have a description field). Because of that, I propose that we create a new infobox for Paper Mario items, that way it's easier to document series-specific info in a convenient way.

Here's the current draft in my sandbox, which is mostly incomplete at the moment.

Proposer: Deadline: May 04, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Sure, but we would have to get rid of recipe-info box because it repeats everything already mentioned, while what is proposed will bring new info as well. I also like the proposed name better than the recipe one.
 * 3) Sounds like a good idea to me. Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all. Would the Template:Recipe-Infobox be necessary anymore? All of the pages it is used on are Paper Mario items, and the new infobox would repeat certain information.
 * 5) That definitely sounds fine to me. I also agree that Template:Recipe-Infobox would no longer be needed should this proposal pass. However, I wonder if we can do the same to the Mario & Luigi series, since the items listed are also in need of an infobox. Nonetheless, it's a good idea, and I see no reason to oppose in the long run.
 * 6) I don't know why we don't have this already. Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) The new template makes more sense, so I approve!
 * 9) What about Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Paper Mario: Color Splash? I know they use Battle Cards, Stickers, and Things, but could they be integrated somehow?
 * 10) Per Proposal.

Comments
I think it should really be called, since I don't see why this can't include the Mario & Luigi series as well. 20:28, 28 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I plan to make it easier to implement series-specific sections if necessary, though. Niiue (talk) 23:22, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder: I wouldn't worry about that too much at the moment, considering that the Stickers/Battle Cards don't currently have their own pages. Niiue (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2017 (EDT)
 * @Niiue: Perhaps then it would be better to create as well...? Maybe both could be created, but then I think they would have to match the respective color schemes for navigation templates.  11:14, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds good. Niiue (talk) 16:16, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.