MarioWiki:Proposals

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Merge M&L and PM Wiggler articles with Wiggler
Seeing Wiggly and the Wiggler from M&L PJ and the other M&L and Paper Mario Wigglers excluding Swiggler split makes me question why aren't any of these merged in the proper Wiggler article. I mean sure they have a different role from other Wigglers but they all have the same name and there really is no real reason to keep these split.

Proposer: Deadline: June 29 2016 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my reason above 🔼
 * 2) per my comments below
 * 3) - Per Baby Luigi
 * 4) Until we figure out a solid way of determining which generic enemy characters get articles, I think it's best to merge these Wigglers.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all. This is a very good idea to try!

Oppose

 * 1) The Wiggler article serves as a species page, which covers each officially recognized appearance of the Wiggler. When a Wiggler is given a specific role in a game or appearance such as appearing as a boss, they are treated as an individual character which is separate from the generic species, such as the Wiggler enemies in Super Mario World. For example, Wiggler (Super Mario Sunshine) is also a separate article. But it is given a brief section on the Wiggler page to cover a variation or character as part of the species, and then a reference is made to the main article. I believe this should always be done when Wigglers are treated as a character rather than having a common appearance such as an enemy. Sharing the same name isn't a deciding reason to merge two separate articles.
 * 2) For now I will oppose. I will give my reasoning below. There is more to this proposal than initially thought by the proposer.
 * 3) If this proposal included Wiggler from Sticker Star, I'd vote in favor. As I stated below, it and the one from Paper Jam are extremely similar in terms of both personality and role in the story, so a merge proposal that includes one and not the other is one I can't support.
 * 4) per 7feetunder
 * 5) per BazookaMario's comment bellow: "This proposal doesn't seem well-thought out." It seems pretty clear to me that this isn't going to be sorted out to the satisfaction of all parties in the length of a proposal discussion, particularly when issues that are greater and deeper than the main topic keep cropping up.

Comments
YoshiKong: So if we give a article for each time Wiggler appears as a boss, should we do the same when Wiggler appears as a playable character and give it a page each appearance of Wiggler as a playable character?-- 19:06, 23 June 2016 (EDT)


 * This issue has been discussed in a past proposal. I agree with the opposing arguments there. 19:41, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Your decision to oppose goes against a lot of what has been established in the wiki. For example, various Koopa Troopa plays specific roles in Mario Party, especially in Mario Party 4 where there's an outfitted Koopa Troopa who's the host (there's a proposal that failed to gain traction because of some dispute, despite that the game clearly intended them to be their own characters). Another example is a single Dry Bones appearing as a boss in Mario Party DS, where bio descriptions specifically list the Dry Bones as his own character in the game, where they use singular pronouns to describe him. In the Mario Baseball games, there's a specific Lakitu who plays the role of the referee, complete with his own dialogue and personality, as well as the only Lakitu appearing in the game. There's a single character called Pink Boo in Mario Party 5 where she was given her own personality as well as even given a gender pronoun, making her technically separate from her species. Calling to split all generic subjects who have been having a unique role at one point unnecessary complicates piping, and I believe it's better off to have articles such as the Wigglers from the RPGs be merged with the general Wiggler article, as, aside from the personality, the single Wiggler is just as relevant as those aforementioned characters I mentioned, yet I don't see the other enemy characters getting split any time soon. Hell, the playable Lakitu character from Mario Kart 7 doesn't even have his own article because the game bios acknowledge that he's the same guy as the guy who held races in the past despite his different shell color from the Lakitu referee. I know Mario Party is a pretty ubiquitous mention here, but it, alongside the RPGs, are the game series most defined for giving generic enemies specific roles and characters, so, we can't ignore what those two game genres did to the generic characters. 20:01, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Pink Boo's gender and personality were introduced in Mario Party 6, not 5. Nitpicking aside, shouldn't this proposal include the Wiggler from Sticker Star? It and the one from Paper Jam are so similar anyway, there's no reason to merge one and not the other. 20:45, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Yeah, probably. Giving all of the Wigglers their own page also unnecessarily complicates piping and navigation. Keeping those appearances all under one article is sufficient enough. 20:51, 23 June 2016 (EDT)

My question is, what makes a character a character worthy of an individual article? What is this "specific role"? The example (Wiggler (Super Mario Sunshine)) provided is a weak one: this one has a drastically different appearance (it also turns into sand when defeated) and has a different Japanese name. 21:05, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * There's the Mario Party Advance characters... 22:07, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * According to Time Turning (here), they get articles cause "they're found in unique circumstances, interact with the player in a unique manner compared to other games, have unique dialogue, give unique items and quests..." In a sense, I understand that, but at the same time I feel like there are plenty of characters who meet these requirements. Many of the characters in Mario Super Sluggers have unique personalities, outright challenge the player to missions, a few give quests to the player. I'm not fully sure, but do we have a real way of determining which generic characters get articles? I mean characters from most RPGs are exceptions for their more unique designs, actual names and such, but what of the characters who differ very little from their parent species? 23:09, 23 June 2016 (EDT)
 * I think for characters that differ very little from their parent species, we just assume they're a member of that species and list information about them in the parent species article. Of course, Goombob, Goombetty, and Akiki will still keep their own pages, but for the other members, I think they should be remerged. The logic that Time Turner gives can be applied to pretty much anything with a dialogue and a role, including the Wiggler giving out hootenannies in Mario Party 3, the Lakitu in Mario Kart 7, the Bob-omb host for Mario Party 4's duels, the Para-Beetle in Super Mario Momotarō, and a lot of characters in Mario Super Sluggers. Keeping their articles because Goombob, Goombetty, and Akiki have their articles doesn't seem like a great justification for me. There also raises the question for articles like Yoshi, Toad, Boom Boom, and maybe even Fry Guy but whole confusion about the identities of characters named after their species is a tricky question and frequent contentious issue in this wiki. 19:49, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Honestly, the fact that Akiki, Coach, Goombetty, Goombob, and Hulu have articles should be reason enough for the rest to have articles. The characters with more generic names play exactly the same role as the ones with names, so to sweep them aside solely for their name is incredibly inconsistent. I wouldn't agree with citing other games, either, since, as far as I can tell, this is the only game to give distinct, non-general names to some of its NPC's while also giving general names to other NPC's. This game is the one setting the track record for others to follow. Beyond that, per the stuff I've said every other time this has been brought up.
 * also it's time turner
 * The names and appearance make all the difference, though, in the Mario Party Advance case. How do you know that these names are as distinct? What about Rex, Thwomp, and Dino-Torch in Super Mario-Kun (though I do think the baby Boo, the Thwomp's grandfather, its mother, and the Buzzy Beetle boss should get their own articles)? The Koopa Troopa in the Super Show that's in the same group as Mouser and Tryclyde (Mouser has his own article though)? They are named like that, you think they should get their own articles? The characters are referred to their species name. They also differ very little from their parent species. What's wrong with the alternative to make them a redirect to a section in their parent species's articles? Generic referrals are shaky at best and alleged consistency don't really convince me that much. 20:25, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * @Time Turner: My bad, sorry about the name misspelling there. 21:11, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * I'll admit, you most likely know much more about Super Mario-Kun than I do, but you're contradicting yourself in your own post when you say that you want other generically named characters to receive articles and Mouser even has his own article. I still haven't been convinced that the MPA characters shouldn't receive articles just because their names happen to be generic. A name shouldn't be the one element that decides whether or not a subject should have an article, especially when other subject have articles when their only difference is a more unique name. I mean, if I go to Mushroom Pool and I see the article mention Coach and Cheep Cheep, I may want to find out more about the characters; if I click on the link to "Coach", I get a short-but-sweet article, but going by what you're suggesting, if I click on Cheep Cheep, I'd get sent to the main article, where I'd have to sort out the unique Cheep Cheep from the generic Cheep Cheep that appear in minigames and the like. I just don't think that it makes sense.
 * I must be typing it half-asleep, but we have a consistency issue on this wiki, and I'm not sure how to handle it, that's what my questions are, especially why Mouser (The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!) is its own article separate from Mouser when Mouser is a character too... and noting the inconsistency of that page and Tryclyde and Koopa Troopa. On searching Coach, the redirect anchors are there for a reason; you'll be directed straight to the respective Mario Party Advance section. Anyway, with the logic, should those characters I mentioned have their own pages? What should the line be drawn between a generically-named member of a species compared to a character that happens to share the name of its species? 20:02, 25 June 2016 (EDT)
 * My point about linking to the Cheep Cheep species page is that MPA features generic Cheep Cheep throughout, albeit in areas that let the notable Cheep Cheep distinguish itself. For example, Reel Cheep features Cheep Cheeps, Chomp Walker and Barrel Peril feature Chain Chomps, See Monkey? features Ukikis, Amplifried features Amps, and so on. Also, the Cheep Cheep article doesn't have a specific section for Mario Party Advance, but rather a single section for the entire Mario Party franchise, which would only make directing users to the character more complicated; besides, if we're going to directly send users to the section instead of the general article, why not just send them directly to an article about the character they clicked on? Honestly, the biggest reason I'm fighting for the MPA characters is because of the existence of Hulu and Goombetty and Goombob (this one literally looks like a generic Galoomba) and the rest: I simply don't see the logic in giving articles to some, but not others. If we wanted to look at which characters deserved articles, their roles in the story, their interactions with the player, and their overall importance should require more attention than anything else, including their name. 21:14, 26 June 2016 (EDT)

There are many other Wigglers to move. These should be considered for merge as well. Although I agree with the merge, I am going to oppose until we consider the other Wigglers I mentioned. If there should be more to consider, refer to Category:Wigglers. -- 20:49, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Wiggler (Mario & Luigi: Dream Team)
 * Wiggler (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)
 * Wiggler (Paper Mario: Sticker Star)
 * Wiggler (Super Mario Sunshine)
 * Big Wiggler (maybe)
 * Wiggler (Super Mario Sunshine) is distinct (note the dramatically different appearance and Japanese name), so it should not be merged. Big Wiggler shouldn't be merged either, otherwise we wouldn't have articles for other giant versions of enemies such as Big Boo and Mega Goomba. 21:03, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * ^Yep, literally just what I was about to say. 21:05, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Grey areas with that Sunshine Wiggler. Definitely difficult to work with to make a Wiki cohesive. I guess you have a valid point about giant enemies though. What about Klambers and Scuttlebugs? I consider the official Nintendo guides a better source than Prima, if they are both available, which they are for this thing. -- 21:07, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * For the record, I'm not going to support proposals that start mass-merging articles, such as the larger variants. The wiki has taken on a "more-the-merrier" approach to articles, and I'd generally like to support that.
 * I'm for creating more articles but I feel that some article creation here is not really called for or feels forced, just to say we have x amount of articles. I think more effort should be with the creation of wanted articles than worrying about splits to create more articles. -- 23:01, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Maybe Fawful's Minion should consider reinstating this proposal so that it includes all the RPG variants of Wiggler instead of those he mentioned? 21:14, 24 June 2016 (EDT)

@Time Turner I'm not trying to sound rude here but did you vote? 21:13, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * For now, I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. Besides, someone mentioning Mario Party Advance is basically a cue for me to come in. 21:14, 24 June 2016 (EDT)

@Baby Luigi Will Do. 🙂 21:17, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * You forgot about the one from Sticker Star. 21:30, 24 June 2016 (EDT)
 * This proposal doesn't seem well-thought out. 20:02, 25 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Also, Time Turner votes when he wants to vote. Simple. 20:03, 25 June 2016 (EDT)
 * @LeftyGreenMario Okay Mario. 😏 00:18, 26 June 2016 (EDT)
 * Here are my two cents about this: The 'more the merrier' approach the wiki have been slowly taking is not something I support. It feels more organized when all incarnations of a character are in one big article. The only thing that should be split are clearly identified characters, that includes both drastically different designs (This, but not this) and characters that are identified as characters, maybe by a different name. However, I feel this proposal needs more thought though, so I wish if the admins withdraw the proposal until it's more thought and studied.-- 08:49, 26 June 2016 (EDT)
 * @Ghost Jam: Not meaning to tell you what you should do or anything, but wouldn't vetoing the proposal be a good idea in that situation?-- 10:20, 28 June 2016 (EDT)

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