MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/48

Is it "Coin" or "coin"?
Currently, the wiki has no set standard for the capitalization of the golden that Mario and co. collect in abundance across the franchise: is it "Coin", with a capital C, or "coin", with a lowercase c? This isn't entirely clear-cut: from the games that I've looked at, there are many that do not capitalize it, including most recently Mario Party 8, Sm4sh, and New Super Mario Bros. 2, but there are also other games that capitalize it, including New Super Mario Bros. Wii and Mario Party, and there's something odd and inconsistent about listing the Red Coin, the Purple Coin, the Blue Coin, the 20 Coin, the Key Coin, and many others as being derivatives of the coin. That lowercase "coin" seems out of place, doesn't it? Lowercasing it just because it's a generic noun doesn't hold either; the Mushroom is plainly and consistently capitalized in just about every circumstances. If you're going to say it's because the Mario Mushrooms obviously aren't like the real-life mushrooms, then I'd argue the same goes for the floating, golden, abundant Coins. There is a precedent for not capitalizing the names of subjects with, for example, treasure chest (despite there being at least one in-game source that capitalizes them, but that's an issue for another time), but it's a moot point if the subject isn't generic in the first place.

This may seem like a trivially minor issue, but at the same time, this is an issue that has yet to reach a decisive conclusion. I fail to see a reason why we shouldn't strive for consistency, especially since we've already had a proposal to decide on a set spelling for minigame (spoilers: we decided on minigame).

Proposer: Deadline: September 2, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Use "Coin"

 * 1) It's hardly as if no official sources have ever not capitalized it. Per proposal.
 * 2) Per Time Turner.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) - Originally voted to do nothing as I thought this was also talking about coins in a broader term, i.e. also including Red Coins and Blue Coins. But for referring to just the standard Yellow Coins, yes, "Coin" should be capitalized (at least in instances outside of quotes).
 * 5) Per Alex, and supporting for consistency (unless "coin" is used in generic terms; see this).
 * 6) per all

Use "coin"

 * 1) See comments.
 * 2) Alternate vote here, because the games themselves almost always refer to them in lowercase. Still, silly proposal.
 * 3) Unless it's referring to a specific type in most cases, coins (and for that matter, blocks and, in at least one instance, coin blocks) have consistently been generically lowercase in RPGs.

Do nothing

 * 1) I highly doubt that there is enough definitive official sources that specifically stick to one capitalization. I'd rather stick with this option until an official capitalization is given, and right now, there doesn't seem to be. (One example of this is that I found an all-lowercase "coin" in the Super Mario Galaxy 2 instruction booklet.)
 * 2) See comments.
 * 3) While this has bugged me minorly before, this proposal is honestly kind of silly.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) This seems to be something that changes depending on the game.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per Toadette the Achiever.

Comments
If anyone has any more in-game citations for "Coin" or "coin" from any games that haven't been mentioned, then I'm all-ears. 00:16, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

@Toadette: I don't see why we should be inconsistent solely because the games also happen to be inconsistent. 00:47, 26 August 2017 (EDT)
 * @Time Turner: Changed the content of my vote. 00:50, 26 August 2017 (EDT)
 * What kind of official capitalization do you want? Is it necessary for Nintendo to make a press release declaring whether it's lowercase or up case? Through the simple fact that the names are seen in plain text, we already have an abundance of official names. It's up to us to decide how we should use the information. 00:52, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I say this is as official as you can get. Although, this could be on a game to game basis. 01:37, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

@Doc: Why? 02:54, 26 August 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it's an inanimate object that is super inconsistent as to how it's capitalized. Honestly, if you wanna go by policy, see how the latest game spells it. 01:58, 26 August 2017 (CT)
 * If we strictly followed every new game, the spelling might constantly change, and there are likely cases in which there's no adequate source for capitalization. Best to nip it in the bud, no? I also don't get your point with it being an inanimate object. 03:06, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I don't get what's acceptable about setting a standard for "microgame" but not for "coin"? 17:14, 26 August 2017 (EDT)


 * It's capitalized in the tutorial of Mario Party 2, but not capitalized in the tutorial of Mario Party 3. It's inconsistent between such close games. A better choice would be to capitalize it depending on the game, and have the higher case be more dominant otherwise (because it is a main item), but I feel this is such a minor unnoticeable issue, yet the "do nothing" option does not convince me. -- 06:30, 27 August 2017 (EDT)

Include the date a proposal was withdrawn within the proposal (when applicable)
When it comes to the proposal archives, in which we write down the date each proposal ended, it's standard to use the date a proposal was canceled by its proposer or withdrawn for whatever other reason, rather than the proposed deadline (as documented here). This makes sense: it wouldn't be accurate to say that a proposal had concluded a week later than it actually did, and the point of the archives is that we're documenting each proposal exactly as they played out (which is why we make note of proposals that themselves failed but whose proposed changes later passed, and vice-versa). With that in mind, why do we only make note of this in the broad archives and not within the proposals itself? Sure, it's possible to find the date it was canceled by going through the page's history, in the same way it's also possible to find the original proposer through the history page, but we still make note of it within the proposal itself. Leaving only the proposed deadline by itself is also rather misleading and non-informative, considering that any users reading through the proposal wouldn't be able to obviously tell when it actually closed. Even with the proposal outcome saying it was canceled, that doesn't help people find out when it was canceled. We should strive for accuracy, especially when all we'd need to do is make note of one more date.

The changes I have in mind would only be applicable to proposals that were canceled before their deadline, obviously. First of all, the Deadline section would be renamed to Proposed Deadline, with no changes to the date. Secondly, a section called Date Withdrawn would be placed underneath the Deadline, documenting exactly when the proposal was canceled. Ideally, this would include the time in GMT to match the Deadline, but for simplicity's sake, this proposal will only ask that the day needs to be documented and not the time. The details may be subject to change through future discussions, but the main change is clear: within the proposals, document when they were canceled.

Proposer: Deadline: September 9, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) - Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Per proposal.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per proposal, especially considering a few recent talk page proposals ended up getting cancelled way earlier than the original deadline.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all.

Comments
Should this apply to all cancelled proposals regardless, or all proposals cancelled after September 9? 13:46, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The plan is to make this retroactive. If the goal is to be accurate, it wouldn't do us much good to ignore ten years of proposals. 13:47, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

On that note, my plan also involves editing the proposal archives, which I can't actually do since they're protected. Should this proposal pass, the pages' protection restrictions can be temporarily lifted so that I can make the necessary changes, or an admin can make the edits themselves, whichever works best. 15:23, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

Remove letter-number labeling from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon mission article titles
Currently, our articles for the missions from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon include the letter-number labels in their titles (e.g. A-1: Poltergust 5000, A-2: Gear Up, B-1: A Job for a Plumber). Why? We don't do this for New Super Mario Bros. U, Super Mario 3D World, Paper Mario: Sticker Star, or any other game with world-level labeling where the levels also have proper names. I don't see a single reason for this one game to be the sole exception to this. It's just a blatant, glaring inconsistency.

Proposer: Deadline: September 10, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) It's no more a part of their names than W1-1 is for Warm Fuzzy Plains. I don't see the difference between this and this. Per proposal.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all
 * 7) The opposing argument (no offense) seems unconvincing, and Sticker Star is a perfect example. Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) It's the official naming scheme. Just create/keep redirects for the prefix-less version.
 * 2) The stage titles in Super Mario Sunshine had various colors too, and no one's making a big stink about that. The colors don't matter.

Comments
@Alex95: No they aren't. The letter-number labels are colored differently than the mission title, and the results screens omit the labels entirely. 16:44, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It doesn't matter, because the game DOES list them like what you just said, by letter-number. In other words, the game DOES list the missions as A-1: Poltergust 5000, A-2: Gear Up, and so on and so forth. I don't get the point to this proposal. 16:47, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Actually, that would matter. SM3DW has the world-level number, but it's not part of the title. I'll double check what the game does myself and come to a decision later. 16:49, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Also, as shown in the video Time Turner linked to, levels in Sticker Star are listed similarly, and the colon doesn't appear to be in the name at all. -- 16:51, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We are NOT talking about some YouTube videos, as much as I think Emile is one of the best, if not the best, YouTube LPers around. We're talking about what the GAMES say. And as far as I'm concerned, the very labeling you want removed is how Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon labels its missions, so you basically want to remove part of the official name of something, which goes completely against policy. 17:11, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The videos are literally showcasing the games through footage directly captured from the games. How are we not talking about the games? 17:15, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * You're talking about how the videos themselves are named, not the game levels. If you look closely, you'll see that the levels are named as they should be (A-1: ...., A-2: ...., etc). 17:19, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * No, I am talking about what the videos themselves depict, especially considering I included timestamps. 17:20, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

It doesn't matter anyway. The levels aren't named Poltergust 5000 or Gear Up or etc, they're named A-1: Poltergust 5000, A-2: Gear Up, etc. It's their official name, and we always use the complete, official name of something. Your proposal is gonna go against that. 17:23, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

@7feetunder: Okay, so I played a level. The identifier is just that, an identifier. It also does show at the results screen. They aren't part of the title, but it would be helpful to have these identifiers should something else with the same name show up, like Poltergust 5000 or Sticky Situation. Though the same could be said about adding the identifiers to the other mentioned games... 17:23, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Exactly what Alex said. Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon uses identifiers, but for the other games, the world-level number isn't part of the title. 17:26, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We don't include identifiers to future-proof. Barb isn't "Barb (character)" just because another Barb might show up, and I could provide many more examples if requested. If it's a unique name, people will know what we're talking about. 17:28, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * OK, I looked again. When I said the results screen omits the label, I was looking at a boss mission, which are all labeled with a skull and no letter on the level select screen and nothing on the results screen. Apparently, the regular missions do include the labels. But the colors are still different, the colon is still not there, and again, it's just a W1-1-style identifier and not a part of the proper title. 17:37, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I totally contradicted myself when I said it's just an identifier. That's the very thing you're trying to clarify isn't part of the actual title. However, since the game uses the identifier in every instance of the mission name, it appears to be both. 17:41, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * If the identifier is meant to be taken as part of the title proper, then why are the labels and names colored differently in every instance they appear together (IIRC)? 17:47, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I don't know, aesthetics, man. Visual appeal. 17:52, 3 September 2017 (EDT)

I ultimately got tired of relying on videos and just whipped out my copy of the game, and here's what I confirmed: @Doc: By that same token, Road to the Big Windmill isn't called "Episode 1: Road to the Big Windmill". 18:21, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I couldn't find any instances of the mission names occuring independently from the labeling, but they were always colored differently.
 * The boss and bonus missions are not labeled. On the selection screen, they have no letter-number labels, but skull and ghost icons respectively (just the icons, not A-Ghost, B-Ghost, etc.). On the results screen and touch screen (tap the little notebook paper icon in the bottom right corner), there's nothing, just the name of the mission. So our labeling of those isn't even accurate to the game. You could argue that that's a cause to remove the labels from those alone, and leave the regular missions as is, but the obvious inconsistency created by this, combined with the above point, really leads me to believe that the labels are not meant to be taken as part of the title and are just meant as identifiers. 18:28, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * OK. Those are on different lines though, ie "Episode 1" is placed above "Road to the Big Windmill",although many of the names seem to have come from the SMS guide. If it calls them with "Episode #" parsed in, they should probably be moved to those. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:44, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The only ones that come from a guide are the "hidden" missions (like the red coin missions for the secret sub-levels), the Delfino Airstrip missions, and Corona Mountain's only mission, which aren't named nor labeled as episodes in-game. And if you wanna talk about placement, let's go back to Sticker Star. In that first video Time Turner linked, you can see that W1-1 is to the left of Warm Fuzzy Plains, just like the labeling in Dark Moon. The Toad at the very beginning of the area clearly refers to it without the label, so it isn't part of the actual name. The size and font of the W1-1 label is different, but I don't see how that's any different from the colors being different in Dark Moon. 19:05, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * "To the left" is extremely different in comparison to "over". Also sorry, I can't watch the video because I'm at home and have dismal bandwidth here. Sorry. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Which is why I specifically brought up Sticker Star. Both that game and Dark Moon put the label to the left of the name, and not over it like Sunshine. Yet we don't label Sticker Star levels, and for good reason. 19:37, 3 September 2017 (EDT)
 * And what might that be?Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:05, 7 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I already explained that. Sticker Star's in-game dialogue omits the world-level identifiers whenever the area names are mentioned. They're not a part of the name, so there's no reason to treat them as such, especially when we don't have an ounce of precedent for it. 00:41, 9 September 2017 (EDT)