MarioWiki:Proposals

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Trim and merge Smash spirits and stickers
Just like what we did with trophies, I propose we do the same and remove all non-Mario series spirits and merge the rest with Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate). If the spirit just so happens to not be from the Mario series but includes a Mario reference in the background or whatever, it also gets to stay. Same applies to Sticker_(Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl), the article gets trimmed to only include Mario-themed stickers.

If the proposal passes, the following changes will be implemented:
 * 1) 1-500, 501-1000, and 1001-1500 get trimmed and merged with Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate) to only include Mario-related appearances.
 * 2) Sticker (Super Smash Bros. Brawl) gets trimmed the same way as spirits.

Second option: keep stickers and spirits if they also have any relevance to Mario in their statistics, obtaining, battles, etc. This option was added per 's vote, and even though I believe this approach is inconsistent to what we did with (for example) Subspace Emissary stages, I see no reason not to have it as an extra option. I would also like to ask to comment before voting next time, as people very often forget to re-read and to re-vote on a proposal, even if their vote and reasoning are no longer relevant.

Feel free to comment if you've got any issues with the proposal, I can always edit it.

Proposer: Deadline: April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Mario Wiki.
 * 2) Let's keep the focus on Mario. The 501-1000 Spirit list has nothing Mario-related in it.
 * 3) SmashWiki exists for this information. Nothing will be lost and there isn't that much context to it the Mario characters.
 * 4) - The Sticker article is definitely a holdover from a pre-SmashWiki era, so like, that's needed to be trimmed awhile ago. The spirits article should also probably be trimmed down for the same reason. And, y'know, the fact that the 501-1000 spirit list literally has zero Mario spirits on it is borderline comical.
 * 5) Per SeanWheeler's comment.

No sticker left behind

 * 1) I assume this is the "Do nothing" option; the wording isn't too clear. Anyway, many stickers in Brawl, even non-Mario ones, can be used on Mario fighters. Same with practically all spirits in Ultimate, which have the added aspect of spirit battles that may involve Mario opponents, stages, items, and music; see, for instance, the 593rd spirit, Pico, who is represented by Bowser. I wouldn't be opposed to handpicking and trimming the few completely irrelevant stickers, but I think this proposal has much the same shortcomings as the concurrent stage proposal in that it tries to paint the whole situation in broad strokes instead of taking a more nuanced view on the matter.
 * 2) Per Koopa con Carne.
 * 3) Per KCC.
 * 4) - Unlike trophies which are just logs of text copy-pasted straight from the game irrelevant to the whole "Mario punching Link" aspect, these things affect gameplay (see KCC's reasoning above and below). Admitelly I'm not sure I like the spirits page being xbox-hueg but I don't think this is the way to go.
 * 5) Per Koopa con Carne.
 * 6) Per Koopa con Carne
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
The proposal was updated on 09:11, April 13, 2023 (EDT) -

I think all the Ultimate spirits have some relevance to Mario, seeing as how Mario characters can equip and benefit from any of them, thus making them coverage-worthy. To put it another way, readers may visit the spirit pages on this wiki with the intent of finding out, for example, which spirit works best with a given Mario, DK, Yoshi, or Wario series fighter. This is consistent with the currently-enforced principle that non-Mario fighters still deserve some coverage here by virtue of the fact that Mario fighters can interact with them. On the other hand, some stickers are restricted against Mario fighters, and it's reasonable to expect readers of Mario Wiki not to find these immediately relevant to their interests. Oddballs need to be accounted for too: despite the previous statement, the Crazee Dayzee and Mario Power Tennis Bowser stickers, which are exclusively usable by Pokemon Trainer and Ganondorf respectively, should still be covered for the simple fact that they depict Mario subjects. 09:48, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
 * I do not believe this is a good reason to keep them anyway. Spectrogram (talk) 09:59, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
 * Anyone can equip spirits and stickers. That doesn't mean they are all noteworthy on a Mario Wiki. Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the Pokémon article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page. The spirit list is divided into three pages, and the middle page doesn't have a single Mario-related spirit. A few possessed Mario fighters, and a few take place on Mario stages, but there's still a lot of non-Mario clutter. If readers want full information on the stickers and spirits from Super Smash Bros, they should check Smash Wiki instead. Our Smash coverage has been practically competing with Smash Wiki and it's time to stop that. For one, Smash Wiki is a member of NIWA that specializes in Super Smash Bros. while we cover Mario. Our full coverage of Donkey Kong had led to the closure of the Donkey Kong Wiki. So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:10, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * I agree. Although, to be honest: I'm not sure even the Mario stickers and spirits are major enough to cover here. Fighters, I get. Stages, I get. But trophies and stickers and spirits are such a minor thing. It's like covering what everyone's taunts are. The Smash Wiki has an obligation to do that, yeah, but we don't. Ahemtoday (talk) 01:40, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * But that's directly Mario-related information, there's really no room to argue otherwise. By all means, we should cover the Mario characters' taunts because they're Mario characters. Should we also remove information on collectibles from Mario games because it's too minor? 03:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * We should have kept Mario taunts Spectrogram (talk) 03:52, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * We do still have coverage of taunts, by the way. -- 20:39, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

@SeanWheeler: "Anyone can equip trophies and stickers" Straight up false information and disingenuous argument. Trophies are aesthetic collectibles with virtually no gameplay purpose, and stickers can have restrictions on which characters they can be applied to. "Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the Pokémon article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page." That proposal states that Poke Ball Pokemon will remain on the wiki precisely because they can interact with Mario, they'll just be relocated to the Smash items page; it's the general Pokemon page that will be deleted since it has no relevance to Mario whatsoever--it's as if the wiki had an article on the Aegis blade because two Smash fighters are personifications of this object. "So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash." The Mario Wiki is not beholden to some mysterious NIWA-wide standard on how to cover Smash information. It is free to exercise its own discretion in that regard, and the situation definitely has more facets to consider than "these concepts weren't made for a Mario game". 07:17, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

I don't think "can interact with Mario characters" is a reasonable criterion for coverage. Surely, then, we should be listing all the characters' moves - up tilts, down smashes, back airs, and all - on the basis that Mario characters can be hit by them? Ahemtoday (talk) 14:07, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * They already are, they're just condensed into the fighters' Super Smash Bros. appearance sections--see for instance Mr. Game & Watch. No essential information is lost from these fighter merges, it just isn't being described in as much detail as it used to be (e.g. aesthetic aspects). 14:13, April 18, 2023 (EDT)


 * Just fixed the typo where I accidentally said "trophies." Still, there's hardly anything noteworthy about an interaction with Mario characters in gameplay when you can use any other character with no difference. The amount of damage from attacking Mario with Samus Aran's back-air would be no different from hitting Fox McCloud with the same move. The weights may vary a bit, but we'd be overanalyzing non-Mario moves. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * They interact with Mario characters in a crossover game and that makes them fully eligible for coverage, period. Note that by "coverage" I don't necessarily mean "dedicated page" as the organisation of non-Mario subjects should be decided on a more case by case basis, but it is certainly not at all intuitive or conducive to start splitting hairs on just how minor these gameplay interactions are. 19:32, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * You've made the proposals that merged the Smash fighters into lists and you supported the proposal to trim the trophy list. Why are you against trimming the stickers and spirits? The list of spirits was so big that it was split into three, and the middle page completely lacked Mario spirits. Shouldn't the stickers be trimmed away for the same reason the trophies were? So what if Mario characters can equip them? Trophies are items in Brawl and Smash 4 that can be picked up by Mario characters. I think the non-Mario stickers that are useless to Mario characters and the non-Mario spirits that doesn't use anything Mario related in their battles should be trimmed away. SeanWheeler (talk) 20:08, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
 * Stickers and spirits have a gameplay purpose that can affect the stats of Mario characters, however small that effect may be. I don't know where you got that I'm against trimming the stickers, because I clearly said right at the start of the discussion that I'd encourage them being trimmed away as long as they depict a non-Mario subject and are usable only by non-Mario fighters. As for the trophies, if I remember correctly from Brawl, you pick up generic trophy stand-ins whose character is only revealed by the end of the battle or minigame, certainly this being the case with Smash for 3DS--and the wiki already has an article for the general trophy item, which Mario, indeed, can interact with. 20:34, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

Merge every Super Smash Bros. stage into game-specific lists
It's official, the premise is that the Super Mario Wiki is not a Super Smash Bros. wiki. I was wondering if we can merge every stage into game-specific lists:



The following pages will be affected:

The following pages will not be affected:

Proposer: Deadline: April 19, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per updated proposal. Please make sure to also explain what would be done with all that extra information (if anything).
 * 4) Actually, as I'm looking at those stage pages, they are pretty short, and far more suitable for a list page than the characters. The longer ones can be trimmed a bit.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) We have merged the fighters, items, and other stuff from this series, we might as well do this. Since the supporter didn't do a good job of explaining why this needs to happen, our stance on Super Smash Bros. is that it's not in the same vein of crossovers in comparison to Mario & Sonic. Honestly, I feel the opposition's reasoning is just based on how poorly this proposal is written, rather than because we shouldn't do it.

Oppose

 * 1) You have made zero effort to elaborate on various aspects of this merge, such as whether this merge involves minutiae like pertinent images, song tables, profiles etc., but most outstandingly, the proposal, intentionally or otherwise, makes a tacit statement that the Mario series stages themselves would also be merged together with the others, which is basically where my opposition is most strong. I assume this is a follow-up to the fighter proposal, which would imply that it aims to round up non-Mario Smash subjects of a particular nature into one page, in which case even a simple statement along those lines would have gone a long way towards clarification. You're basically relying on your voters' guesswork to sort this thing out.
 * 2) Per Koopa con Carne, and lumping 3DS and Wii U into the same page is also a strange decision since they introduced almost completely different stages to each other.
 * 3) Per all. I get how we are trimming down our Smash Bros. coverage, however you are going to need to be more specific on how this is going to work.
 * 4) Per all.


 * 1) Per Koopa con Carne, this needs some serious elaboration rather than just "merge everything".
 * 2) Proposal fails to even mention Mario-related stages and what would be done with extra information.
 * 3) Per Koopa con Carne, this proposal is unclear on too many aspects currently to consider supporting.
 * 4) While I like that we're cutting down on Smash Bros. content, those lists of fighters give me flashbacks of the Banjo and Conker series pages, so I don't want the stages to be given that treatment. I'm honestly quite confused about which non-Mario characters gets their own pages and which ones are sections of the fighter lists. And it's unclear with this proposal about what happens with the Mario stages.

Comments
@Teh Other, note that you still have three days to edit the proposal. Spectrogram (talk) 09:15, April 13, 2023 (EDT)

@Wikiboy10 It's not only poorly written, even this needs specifics on what exactly will happen. The proposal reasoning implies it will impact absolutely everything which is not a very good way of going about this sort of thing. 15:07, April 13, 2023 (EDT)

Funnily enough, I just removed my vote because now I realized the biggest flaw with this proposal: Would this include the Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, and Wrecking Crew stages too? Please clarify that. Wikiboy10 (talk) 15:10, April 13, 2023 (EDT)

Why should the stages be merged and not playable characters? I think the stages are like the second most visible aspect of Super Smash Bros. 01:16, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
 * The fighters have been/are being merged already. 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT)

@Teh Other Could you clarify what exactly you intend to happen with the 3DS and Wii U stages? The proposal is still unclear about that. 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I think that's important too. I'm about to revote for this once it's more clear. We definitely need to merge the stages now, but we need better information. Wikiboy10 (talk) 11:26, April 14, 2023 (EDT)

Create an article for
Punch-Out!! and its original version Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! are currently considered cameos on this wiki. What separates cameos from guest appearances is that cameos have no overall effect on the game. It's when the thing lacks any role in the gameplay or story. The Zelda games may have a Mario enemy appear. Still, they are non-Mario enough to be somewhat distanced from the Mario games, so the games do not get a page, except for Awakening, which only got it because of Mamu's involvement in giving one of the items to Link. As for the NES version of Punch-Out!!, Mario appears in this game as the referee, which means whenever one of the boxers is down, Mario will come up and start counting down from ten. He tells the fighters to fight once the match begins.

So why is this considered a cameo? Mario blatantly appears and plays a role in the gameplay: being Little Mac's referee. His appearance would easily be a cameo if he had just been in the background watching the fight. But because Mario does have a significant role in being the referee, a rather important thing in boxing, the wiki underplayed Mario's role in this game. Sure, he isn't playable or is a boss, but he isn't just in the background. I always wondered why the wiki considered this role unimportant when it's more than just a background appearance. I guess it's because he isn't playable. Still, not all guest appearances have to make a Mario character playable, as recently proven with Sonic Lost World. (And on a minor note, Punch-Out!! Wii is weirdly in the references section despite being a guest appearance).

This proposal aims to reclassify the NES version of Punch-Out!! as a guest appearance. This option would mean that we get a general page detailing the game and detailing Mario's role as the referee. The page will also cover both game versions since they are the same in terms of Mario content. We won't create pages for Little Mac or all the fighters that appear in the game. Sorry, Mike Tyson.

I have a sandbox for the opening paragraph of this game. I haven't played much of the NES version, so I'm unsure how I would describe the gameplay.

Proposer: Deadline: April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Consider Punch-Out!! (NES) as a Guest Appearance

 * 1) Per Proposal

Consider Punch-Out!! (NES) as a Cameo

 * 1) This is a stretch, honestly
 * 2) Per Spectrogram, I'm not sure why you're emphasising so much that Mario being the referee is a major role in the gameplay when all he really does is stand at the side sometimes and wave his hands.
 * 3) NES Tennis is very similarly considered just a "cameo" game, despite Mario's active role as the referee in that game. Heck, in that game, he's not only always on screen (albeit not always proactive), he's also on the Game Boy version's cover art! Since NES Tennis is still just a "cameo" game (at least, as of writing it is), it feels only fair to keep this game on even footing with it considering Mario's similar role across both games. (Besides, Mario characters have made cameos in other Punch-Out!! games, both before and after the NES game, and the sole exception for "ones that got articles" was Wii, since Donkey Kong is a full-on opponent.)
 * 4) Mario's wearing a completely different outfit. And in Wreck-It Ralph, Tapper looks exactly like Mario. What if the referee was just a knock-off character?
 * 5) The role of the referee in boxing doesn't really impact the fact that Mario doesn't play any role other than just appearing as the ref. He doesn't truly impact the gameplay like Donkey Kong does in Punch-Out!! on the Wii.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
I feel the example for Sonic Lost World is flawed since there's an entire theming going around this to make this more of a guest appearance. I still think Mario is a cameo in this game despite having a tangible gameplay-related role here. 01:18, April 14, 2023 (EDT)

Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! is not the original version. The original version is the gold Famicom cartridge that was given to some contestants of Family Computer Golf: U.S. Course. This one lacked Mike Tyson and had Super Macho Man as the final opponent. There are three versions of the game with three different bosses. That being said, would this proposal also affect Tennis? Mario is a referee in that game as well.--Platform (talk) 05:54, April 14, 2023 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
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