Talk:Parabuzzy

This is the renamed Parabeetle for Paper Mario 2. All info for it is on the Parabeetle page. - Yoshi Master

How is the pic stolen paper jorge?--Fg 21:51, 23 January 2007 (EST) And why did you removed it?--Fg 21:56, 23 January 2007 (EST)


 * Someone stole it from www.themushroomkingdom.net. And you were the one who did it. Paper Jorge

Actually I didn't stoled it and I was trying to make this article more detailed by adding the image to it and are you going to put an image on this article?--Fg 21:59, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Only if we find a picture not stolen. You can put a picture with a sprite on it from a site but a picture like that (back background and text) is a NO and means it's stolen. Paper Jorge

Silence now! And add info to mine. - Yoshi Master

Pic Vote
Everyone vote for which image to use for this article.


 * [[Image:Para buzzy.PNG|50 px]]
 * 1) [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:23, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
 * 17:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
 * 17:41, 13 March 2007 (EDT)


 * [[Image:Parabeetle.PNG|50 px]]

Problem solved, keep Fg's, but add mine too.----
 * Now we just need to make sure that's ok with everyone else. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:32, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Anyway, the first pic has the image of BOTH of the other two, I'm for that one. -- Chris 17:35, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I personally like that one better too. I was just trying to give both people what they wanted.----
 * Now that I actually read what you typed (you know I was kidding, right Aipom?), that's a good idea. Give me a minute, I'll make the change and check in with the rest of you. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:40, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Can we all live with this? -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:42, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes.----

Could you unprotect the page now?----
 * Done. I keep forgetting that I can't just click Unprotect, I've gotta switch it to Default. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:47, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Name
Should this page be moved to Parabuzzy? That's what they're called in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Or are they a different species? -- 19:43, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

No this should stay as parabeetle.
 * Why? They were renamed Parabuzzy, so the page should have it's modern name. -- 19:50, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Well ask a sysop.

Just make a note of it in the PMTTYD section.----
 * I still think this should be moved, since they haven't been called Parabeetles since Super Mario Bros. 3, and Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door came out fourteen years afterward. -- 19:57, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Does anybody have a good reason as to why this page shouldn't be moved? -- 20:09, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Parabuzzy is its current official name and I think the rules are to move pages to the newest name. I  am   Confused  21:40, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

So wait, now since there's a Buzzy with wings we're gonna call Para-Beetles Buzzy Beetles? What OFFICIALLY said that Para Beetles are now Para-Buzzies? InfectedShroom.
 * According to this and this site, both "Parabuzzy" and "Para-Beetle" have the same name in Japanese, Pata Met (Met=Buzzy Beetle). Their appearance changed, but that's nothing special, especially after a very long absence. There are several enemies which were named different at least one time in English, but retained their names in the original, such as Goby (Cheep-Cheep/Pukupuku), Shy Away (Beezo/Tondariya) and Flopsy Fish (Cheep-Cheep/Pukupuku again). I would like to see those merged as well, but that's just my humble opinion... --Grandy02 13:47, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

I added info on Green Para-Beetles.
I added info on the page about Green Para-Beetles, a enemy exclusive to the Game Genie Sky Level.

Merge Parabuzzy to Para-Beetle
DON'T MERGE 3-14

Sky Koopa, Shy Away, Goby, these articles are merged because not only do they look just like Koopa Paratroopa, Shy Guy, and Cheep Cheep, respectively, they both share the exact same japanese name, and Japan is the country of origin. So may I ask why Parabuzzy remains separate? Aside from a different shell color, they look the same, and they have the same japanese name. So going by the logic that merged the articles I previously mentioned, I propose to merge this to Para-Beetle.

Proposer: Deadline: April 21, 2011, 23:59

Support

 * 1) I don't see what makes them different and plus we could add on the Parabuzzy section that they are called "Parabuzzy" in those games. Plus, how do you think Lava Bubble got merged with Podoboo?
 * 2) Both articles are kind of short. They both don't have red eyes like most Buzzy Beetles do. This is just like moving Mr Kipper to the Cheep Cheep article. The two have a lot in common which is why we should merge them.
 * 3) - Per proposal

Oppose

 * 1) Actually, they're fine separate since they you can see most differences such as that the Para-Beetle has no feet and has an out of proportion head compared to the Parabuzzy, also the two creatures have different attack patterns and such.(However, the Para-Beetles don't really attack at all.) Besides that would be like merging Cheep-Cheep and Deep-Cheep since they look the same but have different colors, attack patterns, and movements.
 * 2) Per UltraMario.
 * 3) Per UltraMario.
 * 4) Per all. Para-Beetles don't attack while Parabuzzies do. Plus they have slightly different looks so they should stay split.
 * 5) - Per all, and per what I said in favour of not merging the articles when it was first brought up on Talk:Para-Beetle. The proposal was incorrect in stating that they look the same besides their shell colour because one has legs while the other doesn't: that alone is reason enough to keep them separate, not to mention the behavioural differences and the fact that one turns into a Buzzy Beetle when stomped on while the other one keeps its wings. Like I said in the comments, we should split/merge things based on facts like these, rather than simply defaulting to a single region's names every time. While Japan often is the more reliable region when it comes to names, I think NoA made the right call this time, and that's all that matters.
 * 6) Per Walkazo.
 * 7) Ahh, ninja'd! Per Walkazo.
 * 8) Embarassing, but per all.
 * 9) there not the same thing even the shell color is different
 * 10) I'll put it off as simply this: two enemies only related by name and appearance.
 * 11) Para-Beetles are your friend, Parabuzzies aren't. What if Toads turned evil and changed names? Also per UltraMario.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per UltraWario UltraMario
 * 14) Per all and that is that.

Comments
And why are you ignoring the examples I listed? Ok yes, they looked the same, but they had different attacks too. Plus, what about the japanese names? --Reversinator 15:04, 7 April 2011 (EDT)

@Reversinator:Well the Japanese name may be the same as the Parabuzzy but your missing my point about Cheep-Cheeps. Anyways, I have to do homework now so I won't reply to your next comment.--UltraWario3000(talk &middot; edits)
 * And yet, I will reply. About your Cheep Cheep point, since they (presumably) have different japanese names (which, again, is the country of origin), they remain separate. If the japanese names are the same, then that means they were intended to be the same species. This is the same logic that merged Sky Koopa, Goby, and Shy Away, by the way. --Reversinator 15:13, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
 * As I said on the Boomerang Bro. TPP, everyone has the potential to make mistakes, including the Japanese. In your SMRPG examples, the translators were obviously the ones to make a mistake, since all those things are clearly the same as the species they're merged with, which is why we didn't just go with the English names. However, that's not the case here: as the opposers have noted, there are actually differences between Parabuzzies and Para-Beetles (one has legs, one doesn't; that's more than enough reason to split them as far as any biologist would be concerned). The idea that Japan has precedence over everything else worries me as much as if someone said English always takes the cake: we should go with the name that makes the most sense given all the facts we have at our disposal, regardless of what region happens to spawn that name. We should also approach everything on a case-by-case basis: being right about one thing doesn't mean they'll be right about something completely different. As long as someone official says something is different (or the same, if we're going the other way), it's not speculation to keep those things split, and I think it actually does our readers a greater service if we really think about things like this instead of just defaulting based on names alone. - 19:59, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
 * .........Am I aloud to oppose my own proposal? --Reversinator 21:37, 7 April 2011 (EDT)
 * Yes, it's been done before. See here.--Mario4Ever

Allowed =/= aloud. Don't confuse the two, please. 19:21, 8 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I'm usually a great speller, but I always mix up allowed and aloud. Oh well, this is irrelevent. --Reversinator 13:55, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

@Reversinator: You could just have it deleted like my proposal about a certain green fish that I shall never speak of again. Rotanisrever!
 * No, that would be unfair to people who would support the idea.
 * There might be only a couple of supporting people, but still. --Reversinator 13:55, 10 April 2011 (EDT)

@YoshiGo99: That proposal was an accident and I deleted that. @Zero777: What confuses me is that you opposed said proposal yet support this one, it's the same dillemna. 15Yzarkigam!
 * Alright get it through your head, Mr. Kipper is a SUB-species of cheep-cheeps, it is NOT a cheep-cheep, also parabuzzy's japanese name proves that it is in fact a Para-beetle.
 * I got that. That's why I had Walkazo delete it. However, Parabuzzy is different enough from Para-Beetle that it deserves it's own article. It's like the Boomerang Bros. from M&L:SS except in reverse. In Japan, they probably say "The American name proves that it's a regular Boomerang Bro. This wouldn't be an issue if we all spoke the same language, but we don't. From, The Magikrazy Magikrazy.png
 * I get what you're saying but I still believe that it's unnecaserry for it to have it's own article just because it looks slightly different to fit into its enviroment.

You know what, we'll see what happens in the Paper Mario for the 3DS. In Paper Mario games, enemies tend to look different than their non-paper version (Like Dry Bones). BUT, in the recent PM3DS pics (NOT the one shown on E3), the enemies seem to resemble more their non-paper counterpart. I mean, just look at the Dry Bones of This screenshot. That looks more like This, and not like this. Who knows that Parabuzzies look different, too. If they look the same as Para-Beetles, then a merge IS NEEDED. Do they look different, then it's not that necessary.

@YoshiGo99: Mario and Luigi have a lot in common so should we merge them? Yoshi waker   20:14, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Uh...
This should really be merged with Para-Beetle. They have the same Japanese name (Pata Metto) AND the same German name (Parakäfer), and the minor differences in behavior/appearance (losing their wings when jumped on, actually attacking, having legs), can be explained by RPG physics (it wouldn't really work as an enemy if you stood on it like a platform...). A lot of enemies act differently in RPGs, anyway. We merged Podoboo and Lava Bubble despite one being a jumping, almost indesctructible obstacle and the other being a floating, easy to kill enemy, which is even more of a difference than one simply having legs. Binarystep (talk) 20:52, 1 March 2015 (EST)

Merge Parabuzzy With Para-Beetle
They have the same name in Japanese and German, indicating they're supposed to be the same enemy. As for the differences such as having legs, losing their wings when stomped, actually having an attack, etc., that's likely due to RPG physics (how would a platform enemy even work in PM). Besides, it wouldn't be the first time an enemy was redesigned for the Paper Mario series, just look at Lava Bubbles, which have more differences (body shape being completely different, floating instead of jumping, being easy to kill instead of almost indestructible, spitting fire to attack).

Proposer: Deadline: March 23, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per my reasons stated above.

Oppose

 * 1) Parabuzzies are meant to be a sub species to Buzzy Beetles and are specific to the Paper Mario series. Saying that said these types of enemies are just redesigns to fit the feel of a game is not a really good reason. Using that, I could suggest we merge Ice Piranha Plant to Frost Piranha cause Ice Piranha Plants act just like Frost Piranhas or merge Sky Guy with Fly Guy just cause they're both flying Shy Guys. Also I feel using same other region names as a reasoning to merge or split things is getting out of hand. Overall, I'm pretty sure Parabuzzies aren't meant to be Paper Mario versions of Parabeetles, they are meant to be different. Basically, per the proposal above me that I completely missed when writing this vote.
 * 2) According to the Para-Beetle article, they make a cameo in TTYD as a statue on a fountain. Parabuzzies also appear in TTYD, so therefore both Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies are known to exist at the same time in one game, so Para-Beetle =/= Parabuzzy.
 * 3) Per all. According to Parabuzzy article, they bear some resemblance to Para-Beetles, but unlike that species, Parabuzzies have legs in addition to wings. Like other Buzzy Beetles. So I think since the physical of the enemy is different, they need to stay separate.
 * 4) - Per the last TPP that tried to merge them, and also per what I said on Talk:Para-Beetle for good measure. While some languages give them the same name, other do not and as with all other TPPs concerning this sort of thing, we are free to choose whichever language(s) makes the most sense given the facts. And the facts are that one species has legs, one species does not; one species loses its wings when stomped and turns into Buzzy Beetles, the other does not; one species are harmless flying platforms, the other kind are damage-dealing enemies; they also have different shell colours (although this is a minor detail). While the Japanese names usually get it right, in this case, the English translators were correct to give these two obviously different species different names, and we should use those different names to maintain our separate articles.

Comments
Except we have no proof they're meant to be a subspecies other than the English localization. Also, Japan is the country of origin, not just some "other region", hence why the wiki goes by the Japanese names. Also, how is saying they're a redesign not a good reason? There are no major differences between Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies other than RPG physics. Binarystep (talk) 03:51, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

In fact, just to prove my point, here's a short list of enemies that were changed in Mario RPGs:


 * Bill Blasters
 * Main series: Called Bill Blasters, indestructible, and are double-ended
 * Super Mario RPG: Called Blasters, can be killed, and are double-ended
 * Paper Mario series: Called Bill Blasters, can be killed, and are single-ended
 * Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga: Called Bill Blasters, can be killed, and are double-ended


 * Cheep Cheeps
 * Main series: Called Cheep Cheeps, and jump out of the water to attack
 * Super Mario RPG: Called Gobies, and can fly for short periods of time
 * Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga: Called Cheep Cheeps, and turn into Puffer-Cheeps if jumped on


 * Koopa Paratroopas
 * Main series: Called Koopa Paratroopas, and lose their wings when jumped on
 * Super Mario RPG: Called Sky Troopas, and don't lose their wings when jumped on
 * Paper Mario series: Called Paratroopas, have shades, and lose their wings when jumped on


 * Lava Bubbles
 * Main series: Called Podoboos, almost indestructible, and jump out of lava to attack
 * Super Mario RPG: Called Sparkies, can be jumped on, floats, and spits fire
 * Paper Mario series: Called Lava Bubbles, easy to kill (but still can't be jumped on), floats, and spits fire
 * Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga: Not specifically named as far as I know, indestructible, and jump out of lava to attack


 * Micro-Goombas
 * Main series: Called Micro-Goombas, and usually can't directly harm the player
 * Super Mario RPG: Called Goombettes, and can actually attack
 * Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time: Not specifically named as far as I know, and disguise themselves as Mrs. Thwomp

Would you say any of these should be split because of their differences? Binarystep (talk) 05:22, 9 March 2015 (EDT)


 * There are more differences between a Para-Beetle and a Parabuzzy than those enemies. Bill Blasters are named the same and act the same in pretty much every game, save for the fact you can kill them (which is a common thing for most enemies in an RPG game). Cheep-Cheeps have some additional features to them, though still generally act the same, same with Koopa Paratroopas. The only ones I see questionable are Lava Bubbles and Micro Goombas, but not by much. Most enemy differences are limited to slight name change and RPG suiting changes, nothing really major. Parabeetle and Parabuzzy differences are still pretty notable.


 * What major changes are there? The only differences are the name (which isn't even that different), losing their wings when jumped on (RPG physics), legs (result of RPG physics), shell color (which happened with Spike Top too), and having an actual attack instead of contact damage (RPG physics). Binarystep (talk) 06:56, 9 March 2015 (EDT)

SuperYoshiBros, can you provide proof of that besides an anonymous, unsourced claim in a wiki article? I also saw it claimed once that Space Food heals more HP in the X-Naut Fortress, which was also not true. Besides, smaller non-boss Bloopers appeared in the Boswer segments in that game, does that mean the TTYD Blooper should be split? And again, why are we suddenly disregarding the fact that English is the only language where there's a difference made between Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies? Binarystep (talk) 11:13, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * That information has been there since 2011, if it was false it probably would've been removed by now. However, if someone can prove me wrong I will happy to remove my vote. -- 15:03, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Also, Bloopers are still Bloopers, even if they're a different size. It's obviously still meant to be a Blooper. Parabuzzy and Parabeetle are different - they look and act different. Also, all of the differences you've discounted as "RPG logic" which seems to border on speculation to me. -- 15:13, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * What I meant was, as the Paper Mario games are RPGs instead of platformers, an enemy that is also a platform would simply not work. As for having an actual attack instead of contact damage, that's definitely not speculative, as it happened with Goombas, Koopas, etc. Binarystep (talk) 16:19, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * But what about the fact that Parabuzzies have legs? How is that "RPG physics"? And Parabeetles don't turn into Buzzy Beetles when you stomp them, but Parabuzzies do. -- 16:31, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Para-Beetles are essentially platforms, which wouldn't work in an RPG, so they turn into Buzzy Beetles instead in the Paper Mario series, which is also consistent with other winged enemies. As for having legs, that's a very minor change, and is only present so they can turn into Buzzy Beetles when stomped. This is basically what happened with Podoboos/Lava Bubbles, only the differences between Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies are even more minor. Binarystep (talk) 21:05, 9 March 2015 (EDT)
 * Para-Beetles can easily be made platforms in a Paper Mario game: line them up and instead of Mario engaging a battle with one, he actually walks on it. The elements of a platformer can easily be incorporated into an RPG.
 * They could've also made Bill Blasters part of the background to be closer to platformers, but they didn't. Does that mean we need a new page for Paper Mario series Bill Blasters because they're nothing like their platformer versions? Binarystep (talk) 04:52, 10 March 2015 (EDT)

Walkazo, should we make a "Spike Top (Paper Mario)" page because they have a different colored shell than in the platformer games? As for one being "harmless flying platforms" (which actually hurt you from the side if I remember right) and the others being damage-dealing enemies, similar changes happened with a lot of enemies. Look at Goombas, for instance. In platformers, they walk toward you. In TTYD, they headbonk you. Does that make them seperate enemies because one just uses contact damage and the other actually attacks? No. It's RPG physics, because RPGs have slightly different rules than platformers. And again, it's not that "some languages give them the same name, others don't", it's that all of them do except English. That logically indicates they're supposed to be the same thing. Should we split Podoboo and Lava Bubble again because one's an obstacle and one's an enemy? Binarystep (talk) 04:52, 10 March 2015 (EDT)

In fact, looking at the talkpage for Lava Bubble, it appears you voted in favor of merging Podoboo and Lava Bubble. So now I'm curious, how is "floating, spitting fireballs, and being enemies instead of obstacles" less of a difference than "design more consistent with other Buzzy Beetles"?Binarystep (talk) 05:01, 10 March 2015 (EDT)


 * I did say the shell colour was a minor detail; alone, it wouldn't be enough justification for a split (as I've said elsewhere), but it'd be an oversight to no point out that it is one of the things that separates them. All this "RPG physics" stuff is barely more than speculation, and it's selective at that, seeing as Para-Beetles' wings don't fall off, whereas that usually is a consistent trait of flying enemies in both RPGs and platformers (Paragoombas, Paratroopas). On the other hand, the plain-as-day observation that "one has legs and one does not" is not some hand-wavable possible side-effect of a genre shift - it is a clear design difference, and is (and always will be) my main argument for keeping the species separate. The fact that the enemies are both in contemporary games also undermines any non-genre-based argument that Parabuzzies are updated Para-Beetles. There's only three languages with names known for both species, so it's not "all" vs. English, it's two vs. one, and what naming scene we side with isn't a majority-based system anyway: it's case-by-case based on which language makes the most sense and will allow us to present the information in the most logical way. Usually, the majority gets it right, but not always. The Podoboo / Lava Bubble situation is particularly screwy given that the English name seems to have changed so that the "jumping out of the lava" enemies are now (usually?) named the same as the Paper Mario enemies (then there's the occasional oneshot names like the PM-precursor "Sparkies" of SMRPG), plus the fact that the design and behaviour/function in the non-PM appearances is highly variable (i.e. Mario Party seems to have them function many different ways from game to game, or even minigame to minigame). The TPP was three years ago so I can't remember the logic behind my vote back then, but looking at it now, my feeling is that given how inconsistent the enemy is in general, the simplest thing to do is to use the one consistent thing there is (the Japanese name) to put everything all in one place. Unfortunately, the article itself is in a rather sorry state: it's unclear which games call it what, and the appearances aren't thoroughly documented, which defeats the purpose of having everything in one place to compare, contrast and track the enemy through the ages and subseries and genres - but the hope is that that'll be fixed one day. Anyway, the point is, the Podoboo / Lava Bubble issue is very different from the clean-cut matter of Parabuzzies vs. Para-Beetles, so how I voted there isn't really relevant to how I voted here. It's all case-by-case. - 11:05, 10 March 2015 (EDT)