Talk:Electro-Koopa

Split Electro-Koopa into three articles
The three Electro-Koopa variants described in this article, I feel, are distinct enough to get their own pages. They certainly have fairly drastic different appearances and different behavior. Finally, they're not treated as interchangeable compared the different Koopa/Snifit/Shy Guy colors. Splitting this article will also be generally better for linking instead of just lumping all of them under piped links and vague "Electro-Koopa(s)".

Proposer: Deadline: November 9, 2015 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - This has bugged me forever for the reasons mentioned above, I just never bothered doing anything (besides complaining on the forum the other day, anyway, which inspired the proposal, so yay). The green one also has a different Japanese name, as extra incentive to split.
 * 2) - Per Walkazo.
 * 3) - Per all. This page looks like a catalog of electro-koopas in its current state.
 * 4) Per all, especially considering how the green variant is one of a kind.
 * 5) – Per all.
 * 1) – Per all.

Comments
When it comes to ascribing names to the species, are we just going with "Electro-Koopa (red/blue/green)"? The guides that I have (Nintendo Power and BradyGames) both refer to the blue variety as Electro-Koopas and don't have much else for the other ones (NP vaguely calls them turtles, BG calls them "Denki Nokonoko", which is just a romanisation of their Japanese name and is thus to be taken with a grain of salt). The game has vague "Look out for Electro-Koopas!" from a couple of NPC's, but that doesn't provide anything for the green guy.
 * I think going with (red/blue/green) modifiers is the ideal route to go although I don't know if that really violates policy or not. 22:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Colours will work fine: simple and straightforward. There's already a precedent for it too, thanks to Chap (blue) and Chap (green) from SPM. - 22:48, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
 * Also the Blue Mouse and Purple Mouse from Luigi's Mansion.

Slightly off topic here: while I agree with this proposal, it reminds me of a proposal I made a while back on splitting Green and Red Koopa Troopas (which, if anyone recalls, was so unpopular that people actually accused me of making a prank proposal). So why is this very similar proposal suceeding? The same reasoning could be given to both Electro-Koopas and Koopa Troopas: different looks and different characteristics.

Also, (I don't mean to be rude), Bazooka Mario left this nice comment back on the Koopa Troopa proposal: "I don't appreciate the dismissive attitude because you can technically make a point that two enemies that look different and behave differently should be given separate articles." Um... why doesn't that apply here? I'm probably just missing a really obvious point, so someone please enlighten me. --Andymii (talk) 00:52, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
 * For starters, the Electro-Koopas have different physiology as well as very drastic behavior. The blue one is small, sticks out its head more, has a thing on its head. It throws its shell, and Mario has to spray its shell to give it a taste of its own medicine. The red one has a build similar to a Buzzy Beetle. It patrols on fences, so Mario has use an attack on the other side (a nicely placed kick or a ferocious butt stomp) to fry them into soup. Finally, the green one is similar to the red one, but much bigger, like a boss (its Japanese name is "King Electro-Koopa"), and it's sleeping, but still causing havoc on the Ferris Wheel. Mario has to kill it in a similar fashion to the red one, but with a well-placed kick.


 * The Koopa Troopas, on the other hand, have only one minor difference which is mere ledge behavior and slightly different stats in the Baseball games. Their aesthetic differences is only their color. The Koopa Troopa colors are interchangeable, and unlike this article, the Koopa Troopa article isn't split into sections on red Koopa, green Koopa, blue Koopa, etc. since it would get redundant quickly. Generally, though, the Koopa Troopas are identical regardless of color as in Mario Strikers games, Mario Excitebike, Paper Mario, and Super Smash Bros.. Finally, the ledge behavior thing isn't restricted to Koopas, since Snifits and Shy Guys also have this trait, but I don't think it would be wise to split between Red, Gray, and Pink Shy Guys/Snifits. Koopas appear in such a great amount of games compared to the confinement of Electro-Koopas as well, so I feel the cases here isn't very good.


 * Hope I cleared up for you. 14:39, 1 November 2015 (EST)

Re-merge red and blue back here
So with the new Mario Portal clarifications (retroactive or otherwise), I have a few changes planned that I can take off the backburner, and it all starts with this.

The original split was due primarily to the fact that the giant green one was not given any distinction despite it being a unique entity and a pseudo-"boss," putting it in an awkward situation. Now that the Electro-Koopa King has its own, non-misnomer name, this is no longer an issue, so we can focus on the two standard enemies, which are officially treated as nothing more than color variations of the same creature.

Admittedly, the blue and red are not simple texture/vertex color swaps like most color variations, but the same can be said of the jumping and not-quite-eating Cheep Cheeps. Cheep Cheep colors are oddly not listed on the portal, despite Cataquacks' being on there (and those being actual retextures). On that subject, the respective JP text gives the Cataquacks more distinction than the Electro-Koopas due to only the latter using (identifiers) between them, though this may be due to Noki dialogue referring to the colors in-game (note the English site uses parentheses on both).

The separate file names indicate the red ones were originally just intended to be vanilla Climbing Koopas, though this is clearly not the case in the final, where they are more of a loose counterpart, but treated as the same basic thing as the blue Electro-Koopas. I personally feel we should reflect the official classification here and put them in one article.

Proposer: Deadline: September 4, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per
 * 2) Per proposal and how we normally handle colour variants.
 * 3) The game itself plainly calls them "Electro-Koopas" as seen in their article quotes, with no mention of color. I still think that the infobox details can be left more or less the same if we denote the color in parenthesis (just swap climbing Koopa as a relative of the red one instead of its parent species), otherwise I have to agree.
 * 4) If green and red Koopa Troopas, with their extremely long list of distinct appearances, can have a single article discussing them both, so can these colors of Electro-Koopas.
 * 5) They could have given the two types their own names, but they didn't. Also, people keep comparing "colour variants" to green and red Koopas, but the two colours of Paragoombas in Super Mario Bros. 3 behave very differently from each other...
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) I'm kinda in conflict with this regarding their different appearances and behaviors, but the rest seems to check out.

Oppose

 * 1) Makes more sense to me search-wise to split. I think the different colors + significantly different physical appearance + significantly different behavior is enough for a split. The Cheep Cheeps mentioned are not all that different. Also the Electro-Koopas may be mentioned only generically but it seems to encompass both types, sort of like a hypothetical "Watch out for the Bullet Bills" and you have Gold Bullet Bills, Purple Bullet Bills, and Guided Bullet Bills, all part of split articles, thrown in the mix. I'm also not fond of the potential inconsistency in having the boss Electro-Koopa split and these two merged.
 * 2) When it comes to color variants, there's usually one thing that determines if we split them; how different they are functionally. The red and green koopa troopas are only different in that one walks off ledges and the other doesn't, whereas these two electro-koopas have very different behavior(besides blue being smaller and red being larger, the blue one walks on land, chases Mario and can throw its shell, while the red one climbs on cages, ignores Mario, and behaves like a Climbing Koopa, and also the red one lacks hair). If function can say that we can keep the RPG enemy variants split, then it can say that we can keep the Electro-Koopa variants split. And if the Cheep Cheep colors aren't even split on the portal but the Electro-Koopa variations are, I think that's telling us that the cheep cheeps are not comparable to this(also note how the two Cheep Cheep colors weren't distinguished with even a "species (color)" name in any source in any language). Plus, Mario Portal also refers to Bowser's Brother as "Fake Bowser (blue)", when for all we know Japanese sources have distinguished Bowser's Brother from Fake Bowser in varying degrees for decades by now.
 * 3) Per Somethingone
 * 4) Per all. As time goes on I'm less convinced that recolors being split is a bad thing and more convinced that the line of thinking is being used a bit too liberally.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all
 * 7) This just isn't as straightforward as it appears to be. Per all.
 * 8) Once again, I feel conflicted, like a mere week ago. Again, their appearances and behaviors are very different from each other; it's not just a mere palette swap with a minor behavioral change. I suppose it's just a really weird situation in which two distinct enemies are labeled separately merely by color, because if the blue ones were called just "Electro-Koopa" and the red ones were called "Climbing Electro-Koopa", everyone would've agreed to keep the two split (and it would've been less weird to call the green Electro-Koopa King a Climbing Electro-Koopa than a Red Electro-Koopa).

Comments
By the way, are the Bullet Bills on your radar? I would disagree with moving the gold one around, but maybe it's time to rethink Bull's-Eye Bill a bit? LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:12, August 21, 2022 (EDT)
 * Bull's-Eye in general is a bit tricky due to the case of the Killer 3 Bs' naming history, though at the very least I think the black and blue "Guided Bullet Bills" can be merged to Bull's-Eye Bill. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:11, August 21, 2022 (EDT)

I'm a bit conflicted by this. On the one hand, blue and red Electro-Koopas not only look different, but behave differently too, and their internal names suggest they're different species. On the other hand, all names outside of the internal ones do suggest they're the same species, plus it's plain weird to call the Electro-Koopa King a big Red Electro-Koopa when it's obviously green. I suppose I'll still support the proposal; it's just that for just color varieties of the same enemy, they still look and behave differently from each other, and that kinda throws me off along with the internal names being different. Arend (talk) 09:20, August 21, 2022 (EDT)
 * The Cheep Cheep colors and Winged Strollin' Stu / Swipin' Stu (which reminds me, probably ought to be the next ones) also have different internal names and behaviors. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:30, August 21, 2022 (EDT)

@Hewer funny how you're in full support for this proposal but opposed my Snow Cheep Cheep proposal I did a while back, which had even more reason to merge Snow Cheep Cheep to Cheep Cheep than the two electro-koopas do(namely how the only difference functionally is that Snow Cheep Cheep can survive cold water and it's design is also just a texture swap, whereas the Electro-Koopa have unique designs and completely different functions).

@LinkTheLefty Yoshi's Story referred to all its variations of Shy Guys as simply "Shy Guy" in-game and in the Power guide, and there's things like A Downhill Battle in SMM2 which refers to all the variations in it as simply "Goomba". Sometimes games can refer to variations of a main species generically as the main species.

@ThePowerPlayer "...with their extremely long list of distinct appearances,..." Could you please clarify what you mean? The red and green colors of Koopa Troopas have been shown to be the same thing (or at least interchangeable in design and behavior) numerous times before(The Paper Mario series, Super Mario Land 2, Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Odyssey, Mario Kart Tour, Mario Tennis Aces, heck you could even count all the times the red and green colors appeared together in-game without any sort of identity distinction), much more so than they have been shown to be distinct. 09:50, August 25, 2022 (EDT)
 * Bit of a late reply but my logic is that even though I wanted Snow Cheep Cheep to be split, it's merged now and I'd rather we were consistent with this throughout the wiki if most people think we should merge these variants (and also I think of Snow Cheep Cheep as more like a Deep Cheep kind of situation than just the differences between red and green Cheep Cheeps but that's besides the point). 04:39, August 29, 2022 (EDT)

@Somethingone - Regarding color variants being split on Mario Portal: keep in mind that it's mainly showing off pictures of the enemies. It's not describing them beyond that. When there's a version of the enemy in a different state, it's limited to two pictures. In Encyclopedia, it shows off the blue one in its normal state and while it's attacking with its shell off, and the red one hanging off a fence in two different ways. Given that Portal shares a lot of similarities with Encyclopedia (though makes a few corrections of its own like a few Land 2 names), the listing is presumably a holdover from that, but neglected to carry over the second set of pictures. In fact, the Bullet Bills have only one entry in Sunshine's original Shogakukan guide, probably because listing each with their own paragraph would just be padding, so game material is demonstrably fluid with regards to color-variant entries. That final sources (including the game itself) give them the same name but only differentiate by color instead of some other feature is a conscious effort. Also: "Yoshi's Story referred to all its variations of Shy Guys as simply "Shy Guy" in-game" - no? Here is a text transcription: it refers to the regular Shy Guy as well as Flying Shy Guy, Shy Guy On Stilts, Black Shy Guy, and White Shy Guy. One Message Block even mentions that normal Shy Guys can change color when Yoshi does a ground pound. The only edge case is an instance of "limbo Shy Guy" (which is bamboo dancers in the Japanese version) and potentially the bandana-wearing Shy Guys on the pirate ship (though if the Japanese name of "Shy Guy Ship" is any indication, the subject is named after the pirate ship, not the Shy Guys). LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:36, August 27, 2022 (EDT)