MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/47

Merge Redundant Paper Mario Items
There are several items from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door which are clearly intended to return in Super Paper Mario, but have different pages due to having different English names. Considering that they look identical and usually have the same name in every country except the US, they should probably be merged as per the precedent set by more proposals than I can count. As for the items having slightly different effects between games, that happens all the time.

Here's a list of the proposed changes:


 * Koopa Bun would be merged with Koopa Dumpling
 * Mango Delight would be merged with Mango Pudding
 * Mousse Cake would be merged with Mousse
 * Omelette Meal would be merged with Omelette Plate
 * Shroom Roast would be merged with Roast Shroom Dish
 * Spaghetti would be merged with Spaghetti Plate

If there are any I missed, let me know.

Proposer: Deadline: April 5, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I would question whether or not this proposal is necessary, but either way it would be nice to have a single proposal to point towards should the issue ever come up again.
 * 3) I am wondering about whether it should be a proposal. Either way, Spaghetti and Spaghetti Plate are the only ones mentioned that actually have a big noticeable difference. Besides that, Roast Shroom is slightly different texture from Shroom Roast. That said, I am not 100% sure if we should merge Spaghetti and Spaghetti Plate, but I am 100% ok with the others merging.
 * 4) If they have similar attributes, then a merge is totally acceptable. It's possible name changes can occur over time, after all.
 * 5) Almost all of them look very similar to each other, and, since multiple proposals that are very similar to this have been made before, I support these merges. The only one that I am not 100% sure about is Spaghetti and Spaghetti Plate, since they have big differences in their appearance.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all. Besides, we have Duel Glove, Ztar, and Fluffin' Puffin as notable precedents. Hopefully you'll understand what I mean by clicking the links.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.

Allow users to make a user subpage for 'Shroom sections
I made a proposal that would allow users to make a sub page filled with all of their 'Shroom sections. (See the proposal archives) Only I voted so it was 'NO QUORUM'. I am asking for more users to vote, not just me.

In the page, users would copy their section from an issue of The 'Shroom and paste it onto their page (unless if there is a way to translude it). Users can choose what sections to put in it. They can put either all of their sections, their favourite ones, or have one section and replace it each time they write for The 'Shroom. Users can slo choose to link sections if they want to.

This would make it easier to find sections made by a certain user without wasting time looking through the archives. This page will also make it easy to count how many sections a particular user has written.

Proposer: Deadline: "April 6, 2017, 23:59 GMT"

Support

 * 1) Per my prioposal.

Oppose

 * 1) This wouldn't be a good idea in the long run. Many 'Shroom writers, such as myself, have written massive sections in the past, or have simply written a very large amount of sections. Transcluding whole sections into a userpage would lead to said pages easily taking up 100k+ bytes, reducing load times and clogging up the wiki. Userpages simply made for linking to sections seem rather unnecessary as well, as it could just as easily be done on the writer's main userpage.
 * 2) Per Lord Bowser. Also, the rules say that subpages that serve the wiki can be created in addition to signatures and the like. Having a separate page filled with 'Shroom sections wouldn't really serve the wiki.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) – Per LB. Users may reproduce (a reasonable number) or link to written sections on their main userpage if they wish.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per Lord Bowser and Shokora.

Comments
You forgot to title your proposal, by the way. 14:26, 30 March 2017 (EDT)

I want to point out, regarding the "make it easy to count how many sections a particular user has written", we do have this. -- 03:52, 31 March 2017 (EDT)

Repurpose
As highlighted by in this forum post, the necessity of the  template has come under question. His main concerns are that it seems redundant to hand out when a user overly edits in their userspace, and that the template itself is too wordy and takes too long to get to the point. also mentioned that many users with high userspace edits often have it due to experimentation with wiki coding, which is a productive use of editing if it is meant to go onto official articles.

These two reasons is why I propose a restructuring of the userspace template; removing the too many userspace edits reason, and just sending out (in)formal reminders for that instead on a case-by-case basis. I also propose reformatting the template so that it only covers genuine violations of the userspace policy and gets to the point faster. This way, the template won't need to be handed out so liberally, and it will better get the attention of those in violation of the policy.

Proposer: Deadline: April 12, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Repurpose the template

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) Per Lord Bowser. The userspace warning has always seemed odd among the other warning templates. It's just too lengthy.
 * 3) per all.
 * 4) It's always felt kinda large and long to me.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) While it seems detrimental to retire the temple altogether, it also seems pointless to not improve it. Perhaps it should only be issued if A) the user in question makes more than five or six major edits (500 bytes or more) to their userspace, and B) these edits all have little or no relevance to the project (such as, you know, using the wiki as a web host). While the status quo isn't the worst (Bulbapedia, for example, has an even stricter (and maybe an even more "needlessly patronizing") policy on userpages), I'd say it's definitely worthy of improvement.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per myself and Baby Luigi in the linked forum thread.
 * 11) - Per all; trimming it down and making it clear when (not) to use it is a needed improvement to the template
 * 12) Having experienced the overuse of this reminder first hand (although it was overturned by an Admin almost immediately), I agree we need to make more clear what type of situations this reminder should be issued in. Per all.
 * 13) Per proposal.
 * 14) Per my comments

Leave as is

 * 1) You can say that a userpage is a great place to practice MediaWiki syntax but we should encourage redirecting those people's attention to do that in Sandbox. Keeps attention off the user namespace. There is a reasonable argument that, in general, Bulbapedia is too strict. In general, I feel that MarioWiki is too relaxed. I think we can find a happy middle ground, but this proposal as it stands right now isn't it.

Comments
@Toadette the Achiever - I don't propose removing it entirely, since it can still serve a legitimate purpose. I just wanted to retool and rewrite it so that it would only be issued in the case of userspace policy violations, and informal reminders being sent out in the case of excess unproductive userspace edits. This would increase to formal reminders and warnings if it persists, similar to the current policy in place. 19:02, 5 April 2017 (EDT)

Something lacking is the link to Special:Editcount. This is clearer than Special:Contributions because one page keeps count of edits while the other lists each edit made by the user. Here's me: For new users, Special:Editcount is more useful while for long time users or frequent editors, Special:Contributions is more useful. -- 19:10, 5 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Special:Editcount/Wildgoosespeeder
 * Special:Contributions/Wildgoosespeeder

@Wildgoosespeeder - It is important to remember that many users, including yourself and myself, have their own personal sandboxes under userspace, used for things such as template drafts, policy drafts, experimentation, and so on. All of these edits add up on Special:Editcount under the User row. Encouraging people to use the wiki sandbox when you have your own personal one is contradictory and borderline hypocritical. 04:15, 6 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I am aware, as I do the same thing. I thought we were talking the main page only (no slashes), the page where we can personalize to our liking. Sub pages are the exception, as long as they serve the wiki. -- 04:39, 6 April 2017 (EDT)

If anyone was curious, I've created a potential new userspace template on my sandbox. Feel free to comment on anything that should be changed within it. 04:48, 6 April 2017 (EDT)


 * Damn Wildgoosespeeder, you've got more edits than me :'( @Lord Bowser, that proposed template seems fine. Like Template:Sigfix, the wording around the policy is very general, which leaves it to those who are issuing the reminder to personally advise the user on exactly what they've done wrong (such as excessive userpage edits, creating unnecessary subpages). 08:13, 6 April 2017 (EDT)

I think that number of user space edits alone does not determine whether a user is editing their user space too much. For example, a user may use a sandbox to work on a very big project. This would not be in violation of policy because it is helpful to the wiki. What is not allowed is making a very large number of edits on pages that are not helpful to the wiki, such as a main userpage, while making little to no mainspace edits. I think that the template cloud be rewritten to make that clear, as well as adding detail about other types of userspace violation. -- 08:56, 6 April 2017 (EDT)

Discourage OGG Extension (Not Format)
The *.ogg extension is a generic extension to describe the *.ogv and *.oga file formats. To put that into perspective, that would be like clumping all *.jpg, *.png, and *.gif file extensions to be under *.img or something *.html, *.xml, and *.rtf formats to be included with what we expect of the *.txt extension. Yes, those files all contain easily readable text if opened in Notepad, but it would be very hard to tell each file apart if all HTML, XML, and RTF files all had the TXT extension instead. To make things more easily identifiable on MarioWiki, I propose that *.ogg be a discouraged extension for a file of this type when uploading. Sure, MediaWiki can detect the MIME type regardless of extension, but that's not immediately clear when sifting through categories.

Xiph.Org Foundation, the developers of OGG, recommend the extensions I am proposing. VLC Media Player already registers all known extensions of this standard. My guess is back in the day, OGG was just audio (such as DX-Ball 2) but things were getting more complex so they needed to have a better extension to represent the complexities of the standard and discourage the old extension.

To be clear, I am not looking to discourage the format, just the one extension of the format. OGV and OGA are perfectly safe. There are around 1,000 files to check and move. Let's get them changed before we end up with a insurmountable amount of files to make changes to. I think Pywikibot can do this stuff automatically.


 * Files tested to be moved successfully:
 * File:SMS Opening.ogg to File:SMS Opening.ogv
 * File:VBWL-Title Screen Theme.ogg to File:VBWL-Title Screen Theme.oga


 * Categories to sift through (recommended order to do them in):
 * Category:Fair use video samples
 * Category:Fair use music samples


 * Affected templates that need consideration:
 * - Update it to allow for OGV and OGA as well? Code for row one but apply similar code for each row after it:
 * - Behaves like  but for OGV only
 * - Behaves like  but for OGA only
 * - Only works for files with extension OGG. Deprecate it?


 * Related proposals:
 * Proposals/Archive 29

Proposer: Deadline: May 02, 2017, 23:59:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) My browser (at least the one I use the most as I also have Google Chrome, but I not really going to mess with ogg) doesn't even support OGG, OGA, or OGV. But, OGA and OGV are very different from each other. Banning use of OGG for both audio and video sounds good. But, what about applications if they ever become part of this wiki? What will happen to those? (I am only asking to point out all possibilities.) As for vandels that happen during this, there is a option not to show/hide bots which I have chosen to hide them and this is the only thing I have chosen to hide due to when bots work, it makes a lot of changes reflected on Recent Changes. Overall, I will support this decision.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Nothing wrong with encouraging a better extension than a blanket one. The proposal previously supported a complete ban on .ogg which was too extreme for my tastes, but this is something I could get behind.
 * 8) I'm now convinced that this proposal will succeed. Per Baby Luigi and my comment below.
 * 9) If this simplifies life for the Wiki editors and staff, I support the idea. It is recommended by the Xiph.Org Foundation anyway.
 * 10) I'm in the same boat as Yoshi; my Browser (Firefox is what I'm using currently) doesn't even support .OGG files. I definitely support this idea.

Oppose

 * 1) There is apparently no technical difference between .oga and .ogv, while there are differences between .png, .jpg, .gif, etc, which renders that point in the proposal moot. I can't really imagine a scenario where only having .ogg would hinder the wiki in any aspect, and besides, .ogg files are relatively infrequently uploaded and used here. Banning the .ogg extension in place of .ogv and .oga seems like a lot of hassle for little benefit, as like you said, thousands of files would need to be moved; however, even more articles than that would have to be edited in order to correctly reflect the moved files, which is a pretty big task even with bots. This is a good idea on paper, but the benefits of implementing this seem to be outweighed by the sheer level of editing that needs to be done across every article that uses .ogg files.
 * 2) Per Lord Bowser. It indeed sounds rock-solid on paper, but if you think more deeply about it, why would it even be necessary to ban one extension when the two umbrella extensions work very similarly to each other, yet are used differently? If anything, I say we ban OGA and OGV because sometimes having less options can actually benefit and relieve more than harm. Unless you can give some other reason for banning OGG, I'm afraid I'll have to oppose.
 * 3) The idea to split the sound files and video files into their own compartments sounds like a good idea on paper, but I think the creation of another category specifically dealing with .OGV versions of .OGG would be more useful in the long run, as we don't have to bend backward to change this rather common file extension across the wiki. As the above two stated, I think too much energy required is worth the hassle of what amounts simply a name change with very little benefit to it whatsoever. Furthermore, .OGG is the default extension for many programs I use such as VLC and Audacity, and I think it's just too much of a hassle going through the extra step of renaming the extension to meet these proposed standards. If you want to rename extensions from .OGG to .OGA or .OGV, no one is stopping you, since that's technically allowed, but I don't support an official, outright ban on .OGG formats either.

Comments
Sort of related...do we still need ? I thought browsers supported this by default. -- 17:43, 25 April 2017 (EDT)
 * With HTML5 supported video playback with the version of MediaWiki MarioWiki uses, that feature seems worthy of . -- 18:01, 25 April 2017 (EDT)

And what exactly is the difference between .oga and .ogv? Is it really significant enough to warrant banning the .ogg extension? This should really be further elaborated upon for those less experienced. 03:01, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Technically, no difference between *.ogg, *.oga, and *.ogv. They are all defined by one standard, as I linked at the very beginning of the proposal. For MarioWiki, it would make maintenance easier by making all files by the standard easily identifiable by file extension rather than by MIME type. We should assign *.og a  for  a udio, assign *.og v  for  v ideo, and forbid *.ogg rather than use the extensions interchangeably with audio and video data streams. By posing these restrictions, we can integrate and  better than what is currently being done with the restrictive  for *.ogg files only. -- 04:33, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * No article editing required because the templates force .ogg, .ogv, and .oga for, , and respectively. Only one edit will take place, on . The rest is moving. You don't specify the extension if you use the template. Not sure why but OK. All that needs to be done is the move bot work, which I have my credentials hooked to, so this work is all me. I have done thousands of edits before at a time with Category:Beta Images by moving the remaining hundreds of images to Category:Pre-release and unused images. It got done in two hours or so. If a vandal runs rampant during the transition, I immediately stop the bot so that way Special:RecentChanges doesn't render the vandal unnoticed. -- 17:33, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

, this is just a browser issue. Chrome supports MP4, WebM, and OGG/OGV/OGA. Internet Explorer just MP4 (automatically) and WebM (with a codec installation by Google). For some reason, Internet Explorer forces you out of being able to play OGG/OGV/OGA. Just open up the file in an external application, such as VLC Media Player.

Applications? You mean like *.exe, *.zip, *.rar, *.7z? That's 's decision and I don't blame him for it.

People have brought up to flag my account as a bot temporarily but I don't use the bot often enough for it to be worth it. -- 18:21, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * When I say applications, I am referring to something else the OGG covers which can be viewed on the Wikipedia site provided. 18:26, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm not entirely sure how MarioWiki can take advantage of those added perks of the OGG standard. Because of how the four media templates are coded, we just create additional templates for each extension and amend the switch.


 * .ogg
 * .ogv
 * .oga
 * .ogx
 * .ogm
 * .spx
 * .opus


 * If I really had my way with the four templates, I would delete the subpages and code everything into . -- 18:56, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

Xiph.Org Foundation recommends the extensions I am proposing. -- 18:56, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

Again, I'll be doing the work to get things up to standards. It's a one time deal. Title changed so the file extension is acceptable but should be moved to a better extension. -- 20:39, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Yeah...dissuasion is usually better than an outright ban. 21:02, 26 April 2017 (EDT)
 * @Wildgoosespeeder, I've read everything, and I understand what you want to do, but I don't entirely understand why. First, you mention that "it would make maintenance easier by making all files by the standard easily identifiable by file extension rather than by MIME type." From an organizational standpoint, it makes sense, but what do you mean by "maintenance," and how does keeping the .ogg extension currently complicate things? Second, you said that "by posing these restrictions, we can integrate and  better than what is currently being done with the restrictive  for *.ogg files only." Is there only an organizational benefit here, or am I missing the bigger picture?
 * Proposal now has a reason to move over each file to the extension based on standards by Xiph. Consider each subcategory of Category:Media by game. They contain a mixture of audio and video under the extension OGG in most cases (only five uploaded files are up to Xiph's extension standards). I also explain a better example with text files why keeping the OGG extension is a bad idea. Right now, is calling  only 30 times. With the switch code I can implement very easily,  could call, , or  depending on the   specified. The OGA and OGV templates were proposed, passed, and created, just never properly implemented. Also, Media table/OGA and Media table/OGV isn't transcluded very much compared to media table/row. The special thing about templates and categories is that if you edit the template to change its category, it affects all places it is transcluded, autosorting everything in Category:Pages with media files to go into Category:Pages with audio files and Category:Pages with video files. -- 21:55, 26 April 2017 (EDT)

, you don't even need to do it through Audacity. You can just use Windows Explorer (or equivalent file manager) to change the extension or redlink with the OGA/OGV extension and upload the source file that kept OGG. File contents doesn't change. Just the file name extension. This is similar to how you can upload a file with the *.jpg extension onto a file using *.jpeg because File:New Nintendo 3DS and New Nintendo 3DS XL.jpg can exist separately. -- 21:09, 27 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Just as I suspected. So it's just like changing a notepad file to a .bat file, nothing would really change if I edited the extension. Thanks for clearing that up. 22:55, 27 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Exactly. To make it even more clear, MediaWiki would have thrown an error if I were to move an PNG image to a page with a JPEG extension for example. I tested OGV and OGA moves with two OGG files, described in the proposal, and MediaWiki didn't throw any errors. -- 02:14, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

Create Template:Pmitem-infobox
I've noticed that pages for Paper Mario series items don't really have a consistent format, usually having either Template:Item-infobox or Template:Recipe-Infobox. The problem is, neither template works very well, especially in terms of documenting the items' descriptions between games (the item infobox looks bad with multiple descriptions stacked on each other, and the recipe infobox doesn't even have a description field). Because of that, I propose that we create a new infobox for Paper Mario items, that way it's easier to document series-specific info in a convenient way.

Here's the current draft in my sandbox, which is mostly incomplete at the moment.

Proposer: Deadline: May 4, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Sure, but we would have to get rid of recipe-info box because it repeats everything already mentioned, while what is proposed will bring new info as well. I also like the proposed name better than the recipe one.
 * 3) Sounds like a good idea to me. Per proposal.
 * 4) Per all. Would the Template:Recipe-Infobox be necessary anymore? All of the pages it is used on are Paper Mario items, and the new infobox would repeat certain information.
 * 5) That definitely sounds fine to me. I also agree that Template:Recipe-Infobox would no longer be needed should this proposal pass. However, I wonder if we can do the same to the Mario & Luigi series, since the items listed are also in need of an infobox. Nonetheless, it's a good idea, and I see no reason to oppose in the long run.
 * 6) I don't know why we don't have this already. Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) The new template makes more sense, so I approve!
 * 9) What about Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Paper Mario: Color Splash? I know they use Battle Cards, Stickers, and Things, but could they be integrated somehow?
 * 10) Per Proposal.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
I think it should really be called, since I don't see why this can't include the Mario & Luigi series as well. 20:28, 28 April 2017 (EDT)
 * I plan to make it easier to implement series-specific sections if necessary, though. Niiue (talk) 23:22, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder: I wouldn't worry about that too much at the moment, considering that the Stickers/Battle Cards don't currently have their own pages. Niiue (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2017 (EDT)
 * @Niiue: Perhaps then it would be better to create as well...? Maybe both could be created, but then I think they would have to match the respective color schemes for navigation templates.  11:14, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds good. Niiue (talk) 16:16, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

New template
Like many other readers of Super Mario Wiki, I have made the big mistake of reading the "Story" sections of game pages. This section gives spoilers that don't make the game as fun. I propose that we make a template that warns users for spoilers. This template would go directly beneath the "Story" heading in game articles. Also, if this proposal is successful, I would like to know how to make this template, so please post here on my talk page.

Proposer: Deadline: May 12, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) Honestly, I don't see the harm in this. Every other game wiki I've been to has some variant of it, after all.

Oppose

 * 1) – Per the arguments in this proposal. Essentially, entire articles could be spoilers. And as an encyclopedia, we should be presenting information as professionally and candidly as we can.
 * 2) Spoilers in general, why are people so picky with plot details being revealed, even to the point of trying to get others to censor their own material? Also, how much time must pass for it to not be considered a spoiler anymore? Oftentimes, reveals are out of context. Reading text isn't as compelling as playing the game itself or watching someone else play. It's much more fun wondering how the conclusion is reached rather than seeing what the conclusion is. With something like the Mario games, we all know how things go. When has there ever been a plot twist? Spoilers are a mess that observers created and is out of control. In the context of a wiki, too much editing with little pay-off.
 * 3) Almost the whole wiki contains spoilers. This would mean that almost all pages would require the template. Instead of doing this, it would make more sense to put a message on the front page (if we should do anything at all).
 * 4) Per all. Almost every page would require the template, and About already warns that the Wiki coverage includes unmarked spoilers.
 * 5) Per the proposal Shokora mentioned.
 * 6) per all.
 * 7) Per all. I'm not even sure if this proposal should be here, considering it's contradicting a past proposal.
 * 8) Per All. This entire wiki is a spoiler. If people want to avoid spoilers, they might as well stay of the internet, spoilers are everywhere.
 * 9) - Per the About page. It already warns that there can be spoilers. General disclaimer there. If you want this template made, we're going to have to rewrite policy.
 * 10) Per the reasons it got removed in the first place.

Comments
@Niiue: We are not every other wiki, though. Every wiki has their own rules. 12:22, 5 May 2017 (EDT)

Create templates for the Super Smash Bros. head images
I've noticed looking though Equipment that all of the head images for the characters in Super Smash Bros. look kind of tedious to type out. So, I thought it'd be easier and more efficient to have templates for the heads instead.

The code would be like for the Mario image from Super Smash Bros. Melee, which would turn out like this:. Currently, it's all linking to the image itself and, again, is rather tedious to type out:.

Codes would be as follows for each game (and just substitute "Mario" for the character):
 * would lead to SSBMarioHead.png
 * would lead to Mario SSBM.png
 * would lead to Mario_SSBB.png
 * would lead to Mario Head SSB4.png

In many cases, like the linked Equipment page above, these would be great to have. They're quick, efficient, and consistent. Unlike how the Equipment page is set up, where the coding is everywhere... These can be useful in several charts, either already created or could be created, where we would need to show only the head of the character for easy reference.

Proposer: Deadline: May 18, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per me.

Comments
I don't understand why this would be only for Super Smash Bros. characters. In the wiki, multiple instances of this is already used, like in Mario Kart 8, Mario Kart 7, Superstar Challenge. I personally don't see much benefit for this template. 00:03, 12 May 2017 (EDT)
 * ...Oh. I was thinking too single-focused here, it looks like. Completely forgot there were other games that used these types of mugshots. I could repurpose the proposal to cover everything like this, but.. oh, boy, that would be a lot of mugs to work with... Um, yeah, I think this was a good idea, but I'm just going to cancel this. I obviously didn't think this all the way through. Maybe I'll suggest this again in the future when I have all the facts and options straight. 00:18, 12 May 2017 (EDT)

New Notice Template: refrequest
Currently, there is only one template dedicated to pages that have unsourced information, which is. However, this template is meant for tagging singular, specific instances of uncited facts in a page. My proposal is that we create a new notice template to tag articles that, in general, have multiple instances of unsourced information throughout and need citations added to them. The tag would have the tag date added to it with  and could be added to a specific article section with , similar to  and , and the tag would also add the article to a category, probably Category:Citation Needed. For example, the article on Nintendo literally has absolutely no references/citations in the article at all; rather than adding after every single individual unsourced piece of information, it would be much easier to add a notice to the top of the page indicating that the page as a whole is in need of citations. It's worth mentioning that Wikipedia itself has 2 notice templatesjust like this, as well as a ref needed template.

I actually attempted to create this template last night, but it was deleted since it was created without permission. You can see what the notice would look like here.

Proposer: Deadline: May 6, 2017, 23:59 GMT May 13, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * Eh, I don't see the harm in creating this template. Some articles could fine uses for it, specifically the glitch articles where it could list a very specific problem that rewrite template couldn't. Having a template like this can easily tell editors that the article needs better sources at a glance, and while the usage of this template is rather niche it would still serve a purpose. I'd support, because I don't see the downsides of having an extra template for citations.
 * 1) This is a good idea, and is better than repeatedly using the ref needed template. Plus, if Wikipedia has it, so should we.
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per all

Oppose

 * 1) I'm sure no one else will join me, but I really think this is unnecessary. I do agree that pages like Nintendo should have more sources, although mainly just in the history section, but I don't think a garish template at the top of the page is best for an otherwise fine article. Same with the glitch pages, in all honesty I see no issues with the  being used in relevant areas. Also, should the proposal pass, I massively oppose the creation of a new category for it. It's asking for the exact same thing as Category:Citation needed, just on a more large-scale situation.
 * 2) Per Yoshi876. I held off on voting for a while, but I really don't see the need for more than one template calling for the same thing.  asks for a specific source, whereas this would cover the whole page, which I can see getting confusing as it wouldn't be clear exactly what needs to be sourced. And having both templates on the page would just look terrible and be redundant.
 * 3) See my reason below.
 * 4) Per Yoshi876 and Alex95. It's more important to let users know what specifically needs fixed (so they are better able to do it) than it is to let to know that something needs fixing. Doing the latter in this case makes it more difficult to determine whether or not citation issues have been (accurately) addressed down the line without someone poring over and interpreting the citation policy after every potential problem sentence. I would say that if an article requires users to do that, then that article has bigger issues than the source(s) of its information.
 * 5) - Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) – Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per Alex95 and my comment below.
 * 10) Per all. Just because Wikipedia has it, doesn't mean the wiki should have, and as there won't be many pages that use this, it won't be to helpful.

Comments
Wikipedia has a different policy than us when it comes to creating citations though. We're far more lenient with trusting the userbase on information they have gained from playing video games. The only articles this would be really useful in are articles dealing with real world matters, like reception sections, development, rarely trivia sections, legacy, etc which are very few articles on this wiki. I don't think this template would be as useful as it is in other wikis and having just ref needed actually works (and most of the time when we come across that, we usually just outright delete it if people can't source their claims). 14:14, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * For example, Wikipedia does not count YouTube as a reliable source, while we do, as long as the video is relevant to the questioned info. If anything, there could be a "better source needed" tag for sources that don't necessarily prove the into cited. 15:04, 29 April 2017 (EDT)
 * You mean like this? Niiue (talk) 03:50, 1 May 2017 (EDT)

My only concern with an additional template is we already have and we could do something more clever with it. Is there any way to put an alert at the top of the page automatically by editing the already existing template? -- 18:55, 1 May 2017 (EDT)

@Yoshi876: The point of a "garish" template is to direct editors to the main problem of the article, as being unsourced is clearly not fine. If it is being "garish", it's doing its job exactly as it is intended of informing readers of bad problems. In fact, I think it's even uglier on the flipside to what we're currently doing seeing the all over the place in the article (some articles can be mostly devoid of necessary cited sources) instead of all of those issues being congested into one template that does its job of immediately pointing out readers that a good chunk of statements that isn't sourced. It immediately notifies the reader, rather than the less apparent template. But this is an argument from an aesthetics point of view, which is, in itself, fallacious; we intentionally designed those templates to be hideous, garish, and ugly in the first place, you can't really fault it when we designed it that way to begin with. Though the new category proposed isn't such a great idea that I pretty much agree with. 15:38, 2 May 2017 (EDT)
 * A lot of our articles are unsourced, as you say we trust editors from what they find in game. Articles like Nintendo and Sega I think should be better sourced, but I don't think a template like that at the top of the page is the correct way to do so, especially since much of the information is likely to come from the same place, so in all honesty I think a would suffice rather than a template at the top, especially when not everything is going to need be sourced. I can see the point with glitch pages, but in all honesty I think a better policing system is required, rather than a template.
 * And that's why I said that its purpose is niche, but the niche purpose fills a role that the rewrite template doesn't necessarily cover. A lot of articles on the wiki can benefit from this, and this additionally includes sections where a template like this is necessary, and while it's not a lot of articles and only some sections, it's a purpose that's there (many reception sections, such as Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's, needs references). For the glitch page, some glitches can be really sworn to be true but the glitch just happened at a bad time and bad place where you couldn't capture it (though I think better glitches are those that can be replicated, sometimes glitches are caused by faults in the CD and we don't count those). Also, you're making assumptions about Nintendo's article. You're saying that it's "likely" that the information in Nintendo's article comes from one source, but that is not necessarily true in cases like these. Some details you read and some links in between events can easily come from multiple sources, try reading any article on Wikipedia, you'll understand what I mean. 16:10, 2 May 2017 (EDT)
 * My main thing with the Nintendo article is that, for me at least, not everything in it needs references. Having editing a fair few Wikipedia articles, and using sources, I am well aware that information can come from multiple sources, but in Nintendo's case what we have, is highly likely that there's a History of Nintendo website out there that can give us the needed reference. I can see the uses of the template, but I don't like the form is takes, perhaps something like would be better. That way it draws attention to the issue, but isn't so in your face about it, because I do trust the majority of our editors, and so I believe the information is valid, but could be improved by being backed up; and it's not necessarily as bad as a poorly written article, or one that lacks images.
 * Nintendo's article is only an example. What about the other company articles, or the people articles? Or development sections? Also, you're also making more assumptions: considering Nintendo is a huge, well-known company, many articles have been written about its history, Wikipedia's take on it dismantles your argument about a single website covering Nintendo's history. In my opinion, having no sources is just as bad as a poorly written article: if the poorly written article is correctly sourced with good information, we can believe it. However, with a well-written article with dubious sources, it's misinformation, and misinformation is arguably worse than no information. I also don't like the template being, it's far, far too subtle when dealing with a clear, pronounced error with the article. 16:35, 2 May 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm finding it hard to decide. tells a user specifically what spot needs a source, but this new template would be bigger and less subtle and more likely to alert users when something really needs attention. Then again, tons of ref neededs all over a page would probably draw attention too. But having this template would be far easier than running around a page placing ref needed. But even if we did have this template, we'd still need to use ref needed to specify what needs sourced, unless literally the entire article is unsourced information, an unlikely event. In the end, the template would only be an extra alert to pages that are heavily unsourced. But experienced users can spot pages like that without a template and more experienced users are also more likely to know where to find sources. So the template is pretty unnecessary.
 * 10:26, 8 May 2017 (EDT)
 * I'll have to abstain, since I'm really not sure how useful the template will be. 18:48, 8 May 2017 (EDT)

Either merge into, or remove the transformation section from
These two navigation templates always confused me, and I'm not sure which one is better over the other. Therefore, I propose that we discuss the purpose of these two templates before any action is taken regarding them.

Proposer: Deadline: June 3, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Remove the transformation section from

 * 1) To be honest, this is my preferred option. It seems that  is mainly focused on providing navigation between different-colored Yoshis, not necessarily different Yoshi transformations., on the other hand, is long enough, and navigates between enough Yoshi transformations to warrant its own template. Of couse, we could merge the templates, but that seems pointless, considering 's sheer size. Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - I don't think "every" power-up should be removed, just the ones that specifically refer to transformations (i.e. get rid of Car, but keep Mega Yoshi, etc.). Never mind. Wasn't thinking clearly last night, but all of the transformations in the Yoshis template are "morphs" of some kind. So per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Thought this was a two options vote. This option seems to be moving transformations from  to . I support this if that is the case. Makes way more sense that way.
 * 8) Per all. We have a  template for a reason.
 * 9) Agreed, it's better to have a more complete list of morphs in a dedicated template.
 * 10) Per proposal
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per all.
 * 14) This is the most sensible option. The transformations are little more than power-ups and feel out of place in the Yoshi template.
 * 15) Per all.

Comments
@Alex95: ...Then why not vote for that option? Niiue (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2017 (EDT)
 * 'Cause I'm a dunce and can't read. But does that work better? Just rename the "Power-up Yoshis" to "Other Yoshis" or something? 21:15, 27 May 2017 (EDT)
 * @Alex95: I can see your idea working. 16:09, 28 May 2017 (EDT)
 * Actually, never mind. They are all transformations. I was thinking of something slightly different. 18:20, 28 May 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder: I... really don't see how that's similar at all. Niiue (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2017 (EDT)
 * I think I made a mistake with my vote. Misread this as a two vote proposal. Sorry. -- 18:13, 28 May 2017 (EDT)

Remove the eleventh featured article/list standard
"11. [An article must] be of reasonable length and not marked as a stub."

This is the eleventh and final standard that must be followed for featured articles and featured lists, as described on Featured articles, and it is completely unnecessary. For starters, it is too vague to be of any practical use, and it would be difficult to use our current featured articles for comparison since they have wildly different sizes. Mt. Teapot, Mystic Forest, Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, and Mario Sports Superstars clearly all have different lengths, and yet they're all featured articles. If we tried to be strict and set a minimum character count or word count, then we're only going to promote articles that have been stretched and padded out solely to meet the minimum count. Needless to say, that is bad. With that in mind, why should we look at the length of an article to judge its quality? There are plenty of articles that are long, but they haven't been featured because they're missing information or their writing isn't good or their images are blurry or they have an improvement tag or for a myriad of other reasons based directly on the article's content, all of which are already covered by the other featured article standards. An article's length has next to nothing to do with its content and quality, so why should it be used to judge articles that, and I quote, "represent the best the Super Mario Wiki has to offer"?

Finally, there's already a proposal that discusses lowering the size requirement for featured articles (which was also my original idea apparently although I genuinely don't remember it), and it passed. Since the proposal was four years ago, it's hard to see how much of it is still in effect today, but my proposal clearly hasn't come from nowhere, and this is to say nothing of the recent forum post and the replies therein that inspired me to make this proposal. Simply put, the eleventh standard is too vague to be useful and is redundant with the other standards, and that is why I want it to be removed.

Proposer: Deadline: June 11, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 18, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 25, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.
 * 2) - Per proposal.
 * 3) Sure. Per all.
 * 4) This rule really has no purpose. Featured articles are about quality, not length. If a stub is a good article, it should still be featured. There is absolutely no reason why this rule should not be removed. Additionally, if there is a proposal that passed for this 4 years ago, then this proposal doesn't need to be here. Remove the rule, end of story.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) To keep this being discussed further, I am going to balance the votes to be 6-6 (as of Sunday, June 11th, 06:21 GMT). I am only going to support if the rule will be "[An article must] not be marked as a stub" because reasonable length is arbitrary and subjective. Stub means missing information, not short article, so a featured article needs to mostly be complete, if not fully complete.
 * 7) Per all
 * 8) Per all. My only concern was that the  part shouldn't be removed, but that part is already covered by rule 5.

Oppose

 * 1) The purpose of the Featured Articles system is to be applied to the best articles on the wiki. There are many articles that are very well-written and that meet all the requirements, but shouldn't be featured because they are very short and therefore cannot be the best articles on the wiki. I think an article needs to be long enough to be featured, but there should not be a specific number of bytes because articles vary due to images, tables, etc. and reasonable length can vary between different types of articles. I support 's page. I agree that the rule should be changed but not removed.
 * 2) Strong oppose: This entire proposal has its foundation on a logical fallacy. Honestly, I think removing featured article size requirements altogether would be disastrous for Featured Articles in MarioWiki. It's far better to revise the guideline that outright remove it all together. This is really a sledgehammer situation to a problem that can easily be solved through compromise. Also, per my comments below.
 * 3) Per Baby Luigi. Her point has motivated me enough to change my vote. Change it, but don't outright remove it. Even if an article was featured as a stub, the very little information on it would be contradictory to the purpose of featured articles.
 * 4) Changing my vote. Per Baby Luigi. The rule should be changed, not removed. (I was a bit confused when I supported. :P)
 * 5) Per Baby Luigi. I have changed my mind, as I agree that it is better to change the rule than remove it completely.
 * 6) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 7) – In what circumstances could a stub qualify as a featured article? Per all.
 * 8) After thinking it over, I gotta side with Oppose, per my reasons below.
 * 9) This is a highly divisive issue, and I wasn't sure what side I aligned with better, but I'm going to cast a vote for oppose for the time being. I feel like the best way to go about this is to go with a case-by-case thing, instead of an overarching rule. Length and length alone shouldn't exclude an article from being featured, but the rule shouldn't be removed entirely; otherwise, we could have stuff like Ronald B. Ruben up for nomination (thanks ). Even if someone does lack common sense and we get very short articles nominated, it's extremely unlikely that there will be a unanimous vote to have said very short articles featured. The other ten rules for featured article standards are clearer and less open to interpretatiom, while rule 11 is, as it currently is, very vague. Rewording it or going with a case-by-case standard would be the best approach for this matter.
 * 10) - I agree this is vague, but it should be reworded, not removed (which can be discussed in full elsewhere). The info about  should be removed, as I feel that would fall under rule 5, ultimately be redundant. A case-by-case basis would be better, like Lord Bowser said.
 * 11) Per Alex95.
 * 12) After lots of holding off, I've decided this is the best course of action. Glowsquid and Baby Luigi's comments helped convince me. I think that a well-written article with detailed, comprehensive information that is also lengthy is more impressive to a reader than a short article with the same attributes. To use an analogy, a person is more likely to choose a large bowl of delicious ice cream over a small cup of the same ice cream, despite the two containing ice cream from the same carton.

Comments
So, to confirm, articles of any size would be able to become featured as long as they meet the other ten requirements, right? -- 21:46, 3 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I'll agree with Steve on this point. 22:00, 3 June 2017 (EDT)
 * From experience writing essays in high school and college, word count and character count is in no way an indication of quality because I could ramble on about something instead of writing something that actually says something accurate and straight forward. As the saying goes, less is more. I mean I really stretched to meet minimum requirements. For a real life example, most politicians don't even read bills before they vote on them because they are ridiculously long! As of right now, I am neutral and not voting. -- 23:13, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Our featured articles guidelines already discourage padding to meet out minimum requirements. Again, if an article was padded out only to give the false impression that it is sophisticated it easily fails. My argument is that writing should definitely be focused on quality, but the quantity of the quality is also something that should be taken into account when it comes to designating articles as the "best" in MarioWiki. 23:22, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * In general, I find the whole system biased trying to showcase articles because we the contributors are biased liking Mario games. I don't really consider MarioWiki literature but rather a database of knowledge. Featured articles do nothing to enhance the database. -- 23:28, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * To me, I see Featured Articles as an example of how an article should ideally look in MarioWiki, so we have a goal to work towards to when we improve articles and our writing overall. Setting a clear, visual goal helps me and other editors look out at what other articles do that work and what doesn't work. The concept of Featured Articles is how I got inspired to write Mario Party: Star Rush and Mario Sports Superstars anyway. 23:36, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Keep in mind that some articles become unfeatured because something went wrong when trying to follow writing guidelines. I'm not sure how an article can get into such a disheveled state but couldn't it be argued that someone could take wrongful inspiration if the upkeep of featured articles is not kept? -- 00:24, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Some articles are unfeatured mostly because of outdated writing styles that editors have overlooked. Like, in 2015, I've unfeatured Mario Kart 64 because that article looks totally barren today back when it was originally featured, standing up to articles such as Mario Kart 8 or Mario Kart Double Dash. I'm not saying all featured articles are a caliber of quality, but a decent amount of them are and they're enough inspiration to work at my hardest. 00:34, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

@YoshiFlutterJump: The proposal linked to is referring to decreasing the the size an article needs to be to become an Featured Article, not about removing the rule, so this proposal still is necessary in order to remove the rule. Also, stubs cannot become featured articles, as a featured article cannot be tagged with any sort of improvement tags, which includes. -- 14:35, 4 June 2017 (EDT)

@Supermariofan67: Why can't a short article be the best? If it follows all of the other standards to a T, I frankly don't see why the content should be outright ignored. What about its length says anything about the article itself? 16:27, 4 June 2017 (EDT)

I'll try to rebuke several things brought up in this proposal.

If that were the case, the Featured Article nomination would easily fail because it doesn't pass the "well-written" rule that is put up there easily for that reason, and therefore, would not be fit as a Featured Article. This is a strawman of imposing a minimum size guideline, and obviously, we're not going to feature articles that are flowery or padded out just for the sake of meeting just one rule out of the rest of rules that are there to keep things in check. It's like badly formatting images just so the article can meet the image requirement. A minimum size requirement rule assumes that the article is already well-written and covers everything about the subject. My idea is to make it, y'know, a guideline. Have say 2,000 words give or take 100 or 50 or whatever.
 * If we tried to be strict and set a minimum character count or word count, then we're only going to promote articles that have been stretched and padded out solely to meet the minimum count.

I'd argue that length is an element of quality for an article to be featured on MarioWiki, just like how something should be well-written or something should have high quality images to be considered to be featured. We feature articles because they provide meaningful, detailed content, they represent the best MarioWiki has to offer. The best means that all factors have to be taken into account, and for this, we're not looking at just its length as you're implying. Many articles have barriers to prevent them from passing to be featured on the main page, even if they're written the best they could. If they lack images because they're too obscure to be found, they can't be featured. Shorter articles have their length as their barrier of entry, and this barrier prevents us from calling any article the "best" on MarioWiki. There's plenty of fish in the sea for MarioWiki, and having a minimum size limit rule picks out only the best and biggest fish, which is supposed to be the Featured Article's original purpose. There's a huge reason that most Featured Articles are long and detailed, it's because they provide content in both size and quality, and there's a reason shorter articles like Culex are in the vast minority. And finally, this argument fails because it's a false dichotomy. This is not a binary problem, an article can be BOTH large and have quality content, it's what separates the longer FAs from the very, very short ones, and what I think is a huge quality difference between the two.
 * With that in mind, why should we look at the length of an article to judge its quality?

The proposal Time Turner linked to looks really flimsy to my eyes today, I really wouldn't cite it for serious reasons. Also, in my thread, most responses were against the Good Articles idea, and no one has bothered even refuting my comments on how quantity can be linked to quality if you think about it. I'd also per Glowsquid's comment in that thread, "It's like, if you think there's a minimum length needed for front page exposure, that's fine, and it's a principle nearly every print media operates on, but "featuring" content will always be exclusionary in nature." Removing a minimum word limit is not how print media operates on and we shouldn't ignore why they have a minimum word count, aside from using false dichotomy arguments that quality and quantity have to be separate qualities of an article. 16:59, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I've messaged Steve so that he can participate directly in this discussion. 20:18, 4 June 2017 (EDT)

I think the "stub" part could be removed, as that seems to also fall under Rule 5. "There are plenty of articles that are long, but they haven't been featured because they're missing information or their writing isn't good or their images are blurry or they have an improvement tag or for a myriad of other reasons based directly on the article's content, all of which are already covered by the other featured article standards." In this case, then they should remain unfeatured. Not because of the length, but because they should be tagged for improvement or the images need to be replaced, etc. I agree padding should be removed when noticed, but if they have other problems, then length isn't the issue. I do think articles should have length to them, for example, nothing like Water Bomb and has headers that describe what the subject is, infoboxes if needed, images, etc. However, length should probably be of the lowest priority when it comes to article content, but still be considered. If there isn't anything more to add, then there's nothing more to add. Not sure how I'm voting on this, but just putting in what I think. 22:42, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Really, the issue of prioritizing length all depends on the article itself. When it comes to being detailed about media, a longer length should just come naturally as a result of being comprehensive and detailed. I do agree that good writing and formatting should be stressed over length, but length cannot be ignored outright either, which is what this proposal is proposing to ignore, as people here think quality and quantity are two mutually exclusive aspects of a Featured Article when they're not at all. 23:02, 4 June 2017 (EDT)

I am going to bring up the Bible. I know not every one believes it, but it is one of the largest books and it is considered one of the bests. So, this does show quality and quantity to be near equal. But, let me show you two different things. The first is the incomplete Bible. This Bible is a little less than the Bible, but you wouldn't know that unless you compared them. This incomplete Bible drops in quality, too. The second is child Bible. This may sound like an incomplete Bible, but the difference is it is meant for children. It has the quality of the Bible it comes from without the quantity. The only time quality and quantity aren't related. Now to translate this to articles. There will be long articles with good quality, and long articles with no good quality. If we bring in short articles of good quality, they won't make much difference. And, by the way, there would be an indirect length standard. Why? We would not want a whole article or a lot of it on the front page, which would only happen if it is just an intro. 22:42, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I really don't understand your point. Can you (or someone) clarify, please? 23:24, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I think he's saying that it doesn't matter the length as long as the quality is good? 23:26, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I have already argued that length does play a factor in terms of designating what is considered the best. Assuming that your article is well-written and not artificially long, a long length should be considered a positive quality, not a negative one, as typically, long length naturally comes from the article being comprehensive and detailed, which is what we're aiming for with featuring articles on the main page. Also, I think the Bible analogy isn't correct: there's a myriad of reasons children's Bibles would be simplified and abridged, and this doesn't relate to how we feature articles here. 23:31, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Yes, Alex95. Also, the incomplete Bibles also use padding by not removing the number of the verse that was removed altogether. And children's Bible is the closest thing to small articles that relates to the Bible. Sorry if the relation between isn't perfect. 23:38, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I see that whole analogy more analogous to regular Wikipedia and Simple Wikipedia than smaller articles and bigger articles here, where Simple Wikipedia is like the children's Bible where content has to be abridged and simplified for a different audience, that's why I think your analogy doesn't work. 23:43, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * That may be true, but before now, I never heard of Simple Wikipedia. Also, it is the closest thing of small being a good quality. And by the way, when I say children's Bible, I also include lessons for any age group and messages, which are shorter than reading the entire Bible through, though I may not refer to them directly. 23:53, 4 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I mean, I understand your point. I definitely agree that quality should be emphasized over quantity and that longer doesn't necessarily mean better. Padding is a sign of terrible writing. However, this is a standard every single MarioWiki article wants to have; in terms of featuring it in the main page, size of the article definitely should be taken into account, as it's a different standard than the typical fare of how an article should look in MarioWiki. 00:03, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I think I got an idea. Go find 6 articles (requirements below) and make a comment of which articles they are. Don't ask why, just do it. I will explain after you do that. For me, I am going to bed. Oh, and the deadline is June 7 at noon according to the time the Wiki uses. You comment on what you got at that time if you can't find all. Ps. Rules below refer to feature article rules. 00:20, 5 June 2017 (EDT)


 * 1) an article you feel meets rule #11 and the rest of the rules
 * 2) an article you feel meets rule #11 and breaks at least one of the other rules
 * 3) an article you feel falls short of rule #11 (but not too short), but meets the rest of the rules
 * 4) an article you feel falls short of rule #11 (but not too short), and breaks at least one of the other rules
 * 5) an article you feel is very short, but meets the rest of the rules
 * 6) an article you feel is very short, and breaks at least one of the other rules.
 * King K. Rool, Goomba, King Boo, Mario Kart DS, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Hammer Bro. Mario Strikers Charged, Baby Peach, Baby Luigi, Baby Mario, Super Smash Bros., Dixie Kong, Petey Piranha, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Bros. Deluxe, List of Collectibles from Mario Party DS, Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, Sticker (Super Smash Bros. Brawl), WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!, Super Mario 64 DS, Mario Super Sluggers, Diddy Kong Racing, Assist Trophy, Paper Mario, Wario Land II, Donkey Kong (Game Boy), Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, List of Bonuses in Super Smash Bros. Melee, Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!, Chain Chomp, List of Tayce T. Recipes, Donkey Kong Country, Mario Kart: Super Circuit, Toadette, Mario Sports Mix, Mario Superstar Baseball, Coin Rush, Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, Mario Party DS, Mario Kart 7, Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Duel Mode, Ashley and Red, WarioWare: Smooth Moves, Pauline, Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Mario Tennis Open, Mona, Blooper, Iggy Koopa, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Dr. Mario, List of Zess T. recipes, Donkey Kong 64, WarioWare: Twisted!, WarioWare: Touched!, Mario Kart 8, Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash, Mario (franchise), Wiggler, Mario Party: Star Rush, Equipment, Donkey Kong (franchise), Super Mario 3D World, Koopa Paratroopa, Mario Sports Superstars, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, Banzai Bill
 * Lakitu, Kamek, Dry Bones, Mama Mario, Mt. Teapot, Nintendo DS, Wii, Rice Beach, Bramble Scramble, Yoshi's Island DS, Mystic Forest, Mario Party 9
 * Ganondorf, Badge (this article was featured for completely different reasons than it looks today), Miracle Book, Rosalina's Storybook
 * Dimentio, Kolorado, Doopliss, Smithy
 * Baby Daisy, Geno, Kiddy Kong, Culex, Vivian, Koopa Bros.

15:34, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Wow. very good list. *looks at the articles. Notices that they are featured articles.* You know that you can also include non-feature articles as well. Seems kinda bias too, but then I said feel. 15:47, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Well if articles aren't featured yet, they probably don't meet all of the rules yet. It's easier to select what is already featured than analyze some articles. 16:05, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I can totally agree with that. 16:11, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Ok, fine. I wonder how many people agree with this list. 16:23, 5 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Look, after compiling this list I've realized this: we have 97 Featured Articles. If 3, 4, 5 were to be excluded due to their questionable length and this is going to be excluding the shorter listicles like Miracle Book and Rosalina's Storybook, only like, 12 articles out of 97 would be unfeatured due to the rule. That's only a paltry 12% of all Featured Articles. If we cut it down to just 4 and 5, it'd just be 10 articles. There's a reason articles like those are in the minority. 16:55, 5 June 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder: That's what the opposing side is arguing. 08:52, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I am aware. The vote is neither for nor against but because of the two-choice voting, strategic voting took place to maximize discussion, because of how split people are. My best advice for is to ask permission from sysops to cancel the proposal and continue discussion (with ) over on MarioWiki talk:Featured articles or something. -- 14:17, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Your vote already complicates things, since this proposal would be extended regardless of your vote, considering the proposal has more than 10 votes and thus, needs a margin of three votes from one side to pass in the first place. 14:57, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Again, aware. Instead of needing two more votes, brought it back to needing three. That's not the point. The point was to keep the discussion going for as long as possible. This is quite a controversial change, and the current proposal isn't sufficient for both sides. Needs to go back to the drawing board. -- 15:29, 11 June 2017 (EDT)

I will not vote so as to keep discussion flowing for another week or so, but I don't think outright removing the rule is a good idea. Length isn't a factor in quality of an article, but we shouldn't just throw around the Featured Article status to any Kart article just because it's well written. I don't like the idea of a set in stone "it must be this long or absolutely no feature", but not having a length rule will just oversaturate the Featured Article list with well written but tiny articles about Paper Mario NPCs and Mario Party items. How will that make us look? Really, I think the best thing to do when it comes to article length is use your common sense. If it doesn't look too short to you, go ahead and nominate it. The worst that can happen is it's not featured. Yeah, this rule ends up excluding some well written articles. Oh well. If your goal when writing articles is only to get them featured, then you're wasting your time. Magikrazy (talk) 14:06, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * In my opinion, having well-written articles should already be the default goal of all articles in MarioWiki in the first place. We should already try writing articles to the best of our abilities, that's why we tag pages with improvement templates. Featured Articles is another standard above the standard we try to aim for with regular articles in MarioWiki and in this case, length should definitely matter for that higher standard. 14:54, 11 June 2017 (EDT)

People throw around feel-good statements like "Length shouldn't a factor as long as the article is well-written", and to be honest, I think it's kind of, for a lack of a better word, deluded. If you're going to focus all eyeballs on a specific page for a week of time, length *absolutely* does matter. The Featured Article spot is basicallly marketing for the wiki. It exist to retain new readers and fidelize existing ones. People who nominate articles may have a different agenda for doing so (likely vindicating their efforts on writing a page or to publicize their favourite character), but even there's an underlying goal of having an article exposed to as many people as possible because someones want to. You impress people by having up-to-date information on the latest games, with fancy and creative ways of presenting statistics lsited or unlisted, or having an exhaustive and accurate description of every media a 20-years old character has appeared in. You don't impress people with three-paragraph articles about Paper Mario NPCs.

Ultimately I agree with Baby Luigi's statement that articles being well written (... and accurate) should be the baseline expectation, not something to throw a shiny sticker at. A page like Goombob is fine. Indeed it may be "better" that a bloated article that looks superficially "big" and "impressive" at a first skimming, but reveals itself to have clumsy writting and poorly-organized information. But a page like that isn't what you use to show you're the definitive Mario fansite out there. --Glowsquid (talk) 19:31, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * To a degree, length matters (such as making sure statements are detailed enough), but there does come a point where there are too many words and you lose your audience's attentiveness (TMI), which is often why we split articles. Strive for quality over quantity. I think word count falls on a bell curve to determine effectiveness of the article's ability to convey information. The right amount of words varies from article to article. -- 20:14, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * "but there does come a point where there are too many words and you lose your audience's attentiveness (TMI), which is often why we split articles." This is blatantly, hilariously wrong and I have no idea how you came to reason this is the reason articles are split. --Glowsquid (talk) 20:33, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Many galaxy pages are getting split into mission subpages. I figure the reasoning is to separate missions from what is found in the galaxy. Same thing is happening to Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine places and missions. Other kinds of splits include List of Mario references in video games, which a proposal passed to split them into 1st and 3rd party. We have a policy page how to tell us if an article needs to be split. That just means there are too many words on the article page and needs to be split into digestible chunks. -- 20:58, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * The mission pages are split by site owner's edict they should be (for more ad revenues, consistency with level pages for the 2D games, etc etc.). The reference pages and 99% of page splits on the wiki are done because the uncropped page is Too Big to comfortably load on low and mid-range computer rigs. No pages were split "to hold the audience's attention" as you claimed. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:10, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * But there are splits that are occurring on pages that can load on low to mid range computers. Take Skeeter and Skeeter (New Super Mario Bros.). They were split because the attack changed. That would be like creating an article for Ukiki holding a cactus thing and an Ukiki holding a bomb. Ad revenue, well, you kind of got me there, except why not split the long articles so you can make more ad revenue? More page navigation means more ad revenue, which seems to be against the interest of long articles. Do you have hard data to support that readers aren't overwhelmed? From my experiences, people in general often complain about having to read walls of text and would rather have a shorter version of what they are reading. -- 21:26, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * For the quick, "shorter version", that sort of info usually goes into infoboxes. The wiki is not meant to hold reader's interests, it is to provide information. Level of interest varies on the person. Also, that's what section headers are for: for readers to easily find the info they are looking for, despite the length of the article. 21:32, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Attentiveness means to pay attention to details, and if there are too many details, it becomes very hard to keep information straight. I think it was confused for active reading and attention span. -- 21:38, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * Wildgoosespeeder, our job isn't to entertain writers. It's to inform them. If they're too lazy to read comprehensive information, they're in the wrong place. 21:35, 11 June 2017 (EDT)
 * I think you misread my statements. I never claimed entertainment. -- 21:42, 11 June 2017 (EDT)

Also it seems my commen went over your head because I never implied articles should artificially be padded or that being more lengthy is innherently "better". The opposite even. My point is that a page specifically linked to the front page for its quality should be both "big" and good. --Glowsquid (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2017 (EDT)

I posted all this in Discord, so I'm just gonna copy/paste what I said there (save typos and whatever):

"I think this sort of thing would be decided on a case-by-case basis, like what LB said on his oppose. If it's well written and has enough detail to adequately state what the subject is, then great. But we probably wouldn't nominate articles like Bumble V or whatever. The current issue with Culex is, I think, probably a good representation here. It has solid information, describes what the subject is, and the history around him. It is also of considerable length, imo. Whereas Bumble V is well written (from what I can tell, anyway), but is rather short as it really only appeared in one game (though so did Culex), so there isn't much about it. All in all, the ultimate decision would boil down to the nomination process itself and what other users would have to say about it. I do think the stub thing in rule 11 should be removed, as I think that's covered in rule 5. As for rule 11 itself, I'm not so sure...

"Point I'm trying to make is: Length should be considered, but the size of the article should be taken with some common sense, you know? If it's a well-written article, but only one paragraph long, it probably won't be nominated. Whereas if the article is over 30,000 bytes long, but is a complete mess and info is jumbled, it wouldn't be nominated either. I feel like this proposal is a waste of time, tbh. Everyone has different opinions over what counts as a "long article", that it should be decided on the proposal pages itself."

I would vote to support the removal of the rule, but at the same time, I feel the rule should be rewritten. 00:29, 12 June 2017 (EDT)

Since it looks like we're gonna get another extension, I'd like to re-iterate that Featured Articles are only a showcase of our best articles, not our whole enchilada. Magikrazy (talk) 10:09, 19 June 2017 (EDT)