Talk:Vivian

Gender
Okay, I think we need to discuss her gender before making another overhaul, as it is tedious to search out every pronoun and replace them. Here are the problems as I see them: I hope we can resolve this quickly, as it is a very petty thing to argue over. Goomb-omb
 * 'They' is not proper grammar for referring to one person. It may be acceptable in colloquial speaking English, but never in written English.
 * 'She' is a problem, because in the original Japanese version Vivian is not a girl. (Proof?)
 * 'It' is unacceptable when referring to people. "It" is demeaning and insulting, and should never be used when referring to a person. (And is often frowned upon when referring to a pet/animal when the gender is knownn)
 * S/he, or he/she is cumbersome, as is writing Vivian over an over again.


 * I feel 'it' is only insulting when it, lol pun?, is intended to be insulting. 'They' is not necessarily improper in speech, but here I see what you mean. S'he or he/she is worse than writing the name constantly. FD09

Wait, how did we handle this with Birdo's article? We should do the same with this one, as I really haven't seen any complaints about Birdo's page yet. -Moonshine
 * We used Birdo's name a lot and 'it'.FD09
 * Lol, there are some complaints about Birdo's article. Birdo is currently referred to as "it"--which I don't think is appropriate for Vivian. Goomb-omb
 * Vivian is a she. She kisses Mario.
 * Is that sarcasm? FD09
 * Males can kiss other males, you know. Both Bowser and Booster have kissed Mario.  (Although I do agree that she would be the best choice in this case ) Goomb-omb
 * Well, at this point I think we should address Vivian as a "She" in the article except for the "Gender Controversy" section, which should remain the same. Besides, the general consensus of the readers most likley associate her with being as female, and also because Vivian was even called a she on her catch card in SPM (which has been her most recent appearance. -Moonshine
 * Yes, but it is due to this conflict that we should not refer to such characters with a gender. Also, that's American translation. It has been proven Vivian is known originally as male anyway, the problem with referring to such characters as female. FD09
 * According to the article, there is CONTROVERSY about Vivian's gender in the original Japanese version, not that Vivian is explicitly male. I feel that "it" i less acceptable here than for Birdo because Birdo is more of a 'creature', and Vivian is more of a 'person', and people are never referred to as 'it'. Goomb-omb
 * How is Vivian not a creature? Vivian is quite obviously not human. FD09

But she is sentinent. Besides, people, c'mon: VIVIAN IS FEMALE! she is called female by all other characters in PM2. It is only in the Japanese game that she is male, and this is an ENGLISH wiki. We should still mention that she was male in Japan, but other than that, what is this argument for? - Ultimatetoad


 * I agree with this, we've adapted content to be American anyway. Take the MKWii vehicles for example, we changed names like "Rally Romper" and "Aero Glider" to "Tiny Titan" and "Jetsetter" Doesn't American content (somehow) win out in things like these? -Moonshine

.....this conversation leads down an extremly bad road (trust me, I know). This is an English wiki, so the English names/definitions take precedence. This works for the Vivian article, but those other things are controversal, because they are english too..... - Ultimatetoad

Besides, didn't the other Shadow Sirens call her a girl a few times?

I think referring to Vivian as female throughout the article is fine as long as it is first acknowledged in her bio at the top of the page that she is a male. FD09


 * Fair enough.-Moonshine

FD... what? she's not a male. - Ultimatetoad
 * But she is. Vivian is acknowledged as female by other characters because her appearances leads them to believe so. That's the fact, if I'm not mistaken.FD09

But wait, her OWN sisters call her female. Heres how I understand it: Vivian is a male in the japanese version of the game. Goombella's tattle says so. HOWEVER she is female in all other versions. - Ultimatetoad

Wait wait wait wait wait wait FD, I hate to argue, but I really think you're wrong on this. EVERYONE in the english version calls her female. Her gender was changed when she moved overseas: it happens a lot, actually. - Ultimatetoad

Uhm, it is said Vivian is originally male, so she is. There's nothing wrong with stating that Vivian is actually male, regardless of nation, because she is... Confusing, but correct. No one should have a problem with the facts, and since we are still referring to her as she throughout the article, it is correct. FD09

....... confusing is right. She is only male overseas: in North America, she is female. So, basically, she is not "actually" anything, but a character whose gender changes between games/versions. - Ultimatetoad
 * What Ultimatetoad said. Plus, what you had on the article was too confusing anyway.

Thats another thing: readers will be confused if the article refers to her as both male & female. - Ultimatetoad
 * Moonshine fixed it.
 * Is Vivian really male in the Japanese version, or is there confusion in the Japanese version? I thought the three of them were referred to as majotchi or whatever, and that that was a female term?Goomb-omb

There is confusion in the japanese version, but the tattle log calls vivian male. And the current version of the article is incorrect as well: Listen, the gender of the character was changed. She is not "referred to as female in other regions to avoid confusion": in other regions, she is female. - Ultimatetoad
 * Actually, she's a boy in the Japanese version; she's just mistaken as a girl due to her appearance. She' female in all other regions.
 * So can't we just have it as "she", since she's a female in more regions than she's called male?
 * We're trying, but FD09 is trying to convince everyone into believing that she is male. (despite the fact that she's female in other regions)
 * It's settled then. If someone wants an article calling Vivian a male, then go make a mariowiki.jp :P Goomb-omb


 * Oh my gosh... I never thought this would happen with Vivian. Come on people, be serious. We are an English-speaking wiki, and Vivian is quite definitely female in English-speaking countries! 20:37, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

There's what... four different sections talking about the same thing? Anyway, I just want to ask if anyone knows what the capture card from the Japanese Super Paper Mario says. That is, if it uses a male pronoun, female, or neither. If it uses neither, darn. If it uses a male pronoun, continue the argument. But if it uses female, then that either means they decided to change it and pretend people would forget about it, it was an insult by Beldam which confused Mario and his party, or some other third thing.--Topmonhit 03:01, 23 July 2009 (EDT)
 * The silliest part of the four section thing is that new comments are put in every one of them, as opposed to the latest one. The Japanese SPM card idea is smart, though even if they retconned the male thing, we'd still include it - just like how we include Birdo's original portrayal. Not doing so would be an oversight, as we want to be as thorough as possible. The argument on the matter is closed; the gender stuff is staying, and even if there's hundreds of sections complaining about it, it's not gonna change. - 02:14, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

How Could She Not Be Female?
That's just freaky. It seems EXTREMELY obvious by her appearance that she is female, and she is attracted to Mario. I doubt Nintendo would create a homosexual character...I can't imagine them doing that.

Also, only her 1st battle stats are there...


 * Homosexual would mean that one has attraction for a person of the same sex, but Vivian is (in the original) obviously a male who wants to be a female, which makes her some kind of transgendered character (like Birdo). Nintendo (and Intelligent Systems) are Japanese companies, and in Japan, characters with alternate sexual orientations are common in popular culture, there are even a whole categories of anime and manga focussing on characters of this kind. --Grandy02 11:34, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, fair enough...that's very confusing that the Japanese version has a different perspective on this character (avoided using "he" or "she.") I think that when they translate the game to English for us people, they should keep things the same unless they make absolutely no sense in English. Obviously that would sound a bit weird to us with our different culture, but maybe they changed it to avoid controversy.


 * Four Words, or one abreviation: the ESRB. Them and that wonderful "suggestive themes" blanket statement.  01:47, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I personaly belive that due to the fact that most regions refer to Vivian as a female, that should make her/him a her. However, because in Japan she is a he, and Nitendo is Japanese, Vivian should be a male. Her and or His name is Vivian, which is a boys name, as well as the apperance of a girl, makes Vivian a girl. Possibly.

Thanks for clearing that up. >_> I can't even tell which gender you support. 18:52, 24 December 2008 (EST)
 * Don't be sarcastic, 'tis not nice. Anyway, if she's biologically male but identifies with being female, that makes her transsexual (though "transgendered" works too). According to the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, transsexuals should be identified with the gender they identifies themselves with (see here), meaning there is no reason why Vivian can't be called a "she" in the article. Same goes for Birdo. - 19:23, 24 December 2008 (EST)


 * Again, very good point. I would also like to note that there are not any "gendered" pronouns in Japanese (such as "he" or "she"), which can complicate translating games into other languages that contain such pronouns (like English). --


 * Actually, there is 彼 kare, as well as 彼女 kanojo, which mean he and she, respectively. But they aren't common.  Actually, Japanese has a lot of pronouns with genders, it's just that pronouns in general are not very common.  01:51, 26 December 2008 (EST)


 * Right, totally. So they probably don't appear in video games that often. --

In Spanish
At least in spanish (or is it "european"?) version, its told in the game that Vivian is a MALE that disguises as female. In the description of the character says it. Also, his/her sister talks about him/her as a boy. Goombella´s description does as well...
 * I don't recall that in the German version. Looks like some translations decided to keep the original Japanese story while others changed it. - 16:21, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ok, yes. I remember that in the game his/her sister said that "he likes to think that hes a girl but hes really a boy". It seems that is not present in other european countryes.

Drmgin 12:40, 20 January 2009 (EST)

remove gender part
I am thinking about removing the gender part. I have researched this, and concluded: Vivian was NOT a male in the JAP version. Beldam's referral to her as a man was merely an insult. It is an insult to say a female looks like a man. JerseyMarioFreak 00:15, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Vivian is indeed a girls name (Vivian Vance, I Love Lucy, anyone?)

And Walkazo, who gives a flying *CENSORED* what GLAAD says? They should all be thrown in prison!!! JerseyMarioFreak 00:24, 9 February 2009 (EST)


 * That doesn't even make sense. Not only is your comment extremely offensive, but the Mario Wiki is committed to having complete coverage of the Mario series in all its forms.  As her sex and gender change between versions of the game, we need to document this. --
 * Agreed. Although I hate to admit it, Vivian was a guy in Japan. Although that paragraph is somewhat cryptic, we need to include it in the article because it was part of the history of Vivian.
 * Okay, I rewrote the whole section, so hopefully it's a lot clearer now. I'm afraid I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, so I couldn't really comment on how they approach gender identity in their media (I know it's a bit more fluid and less squirrelly than in mainstream North America, but I couldn't find any solid references to cite on the matter, so I left it out). Hopefully the link to Wikipedia's bishounen article makes up for my Western outlook on transgendered pronoun usage. - 18:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Another Quote, Possibly Better?
I think instead of the quote used at the beginning of the article, we could use this one from Vivian. "Your name was stolen? I see... Well, I guess that happens from time to time..." I think it is funnier and kind of tells how interesting the game gets :P If you all don't agree, that's okay.