Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 5

Event Matches
I think that the "description" column of the event matches table shouldn't list the game's in-game description, but one written by us describing the event match more thoroughly (like on Melee). - 17:13, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * ... you just want to complicate the things >_>
 * If it is necessary, then yes. Just using the same descriptions as the game isn't really helpful and descriptive at all, they should only be used as direct quotes. We want to create our own article on Brawl that covers it, not to showcase the game. - 16:18, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Pikachu’s Down Special Move
Hey look at Pikachu’s Down Special Move this site.
 * It appears that using the move midair will be much more important this time around. Doing that would appear to give the element of surprise and avoid people from absorbing the electricity.  21:51, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Items missing!
Major items are missing from the item list. One is the Deku Nut; http://www.brawlcentral.com/?p=items this page tells you about its effects. Also the Hothead item is missing. The "spike ball" is actually called the Unira (from Clu Clu Land) and is also described at this link. The Ray Gun and Timer Mine are also missing. This website will also provide you with some good pics of these and other items. --Sabishii Kage 01:39, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 * Strange. I thought that I added the Ray Gun some time ago after I realized that it was missing. Editing this page is a problem because it's edited so frequently (the page with most revisions on the wiki by far) that your edits might be overwritten by another user who edits it at the same time and doesn't get caught by the Edit Conflict window. - 10:04, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Wow, lol. Well, I hope that user realizes that we are missing out (if he/she cares). Especially the two new items (Deku Nut and Hothead). Another user even asked a question asking what these two items where on the item list from the game photo.

Full stage liist.
I have found a website that has a complete list of every stage in brawl, each with pictures. They are:

Battlefield-Super Smash Bros

Final Destination-Super Smash Bros

Delfino Plaza-Super Mario Bros

Luigi's Mansion-Super Mario Bros

Mushroomy Kingdom-Super Mario Bros

Mario Circuit-Super Mario Bros

Rumble Falls-Donkey Kong

The Bridge of Eldin-The Legend of Zelda

The Great Sea-The Legend of Zelda

Norfair-Metroid

Frigate Orpheon-Metroid

Yoshi's Island-Yoshi

Battleship Halberd-Kirby

Lylat Cruise-Starfox

Pokémon Stadium 2-Pokémon

Spear Pillar-Pokémon

Port Town Aero Dive-F-Zero

Castle Siege-Fire Emblem

WarioWare-WarioWare

Distant Planet-Pikmin

Smashville-Animal Crossing

New Pork City-Earthbound

The Summit-Ice Climber

Skyworld-Kid Icarus

75m-Donkey Kong

Mario Bros.-Super Mario Bros.

Flat Zone 2-Game & Watch

PictoChat-PictoChat

Elektroplankton-Elektroplankton

Shadow Moses Island-Metal Gear

Green Hill Zone-Sonic The Hedgehog

Temple-The Legend of Zelda

Yoshi's Island-Super Mario Bros. & Yoshi

Jungle Japes-Donkey Kong

Onett-Earthbound

Corneria-Starfox

Rainbow Cruise-Super Mario Bros.

Green Greens-Kirby

Big Blue-F-Zero

Brinstar-Metroid

Pokémon Stadium-Pokémon

Lucario's Final Smash
The next one changing the name of Lucario's Final Smash please adds a reference for the name to it, we are in no need for edit wars. - 11:11, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's Aurastorm. Or at least that's the article name. Btw, can't we all just wait till March 9? 19:03, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Yea, It seems like that would be the best thing to do. Let's just wait. --Sabishii Kage 22:24, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Item section
I don't like the new layout of the item section. The images are too small, and Crate, Barrel, Capsule and Party Ball(!) aren't simply the same thing. I'd say we should use the images of the items' trophies, as done in the Melee article. - 13:01, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * I think the icons are cool...
 * There's nothing wrong with them. Plus, those items are in one spot because that's how it is in the actual game. I didn't upload all of these images so they could be taken down because they don't suit a user's taste. Fixitup
 * The items are different in the actual game. They just put one icon for the item switch to turn all containers on/off. Another reason why those icons are unhandy, we should use the trophies instead. Party Balls are just simply different from capsules. - 16:06, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * I agree with Cobold on this. Sorry, Fixit, but, Trophy Images would work a little bit better. These images are too small, and as Cobold said, some items, like the Crates, are seperate.

Whatever. If I recall, a similar incident had occurred before, and the people not on my side got their way, so I doubt this'll be any different. Just to be completely fair though, there should be a proposal. Regardless of the outcome, I won't complain. Fixitup
 * The thing with the icons is that you can actually see the article pretty well, whereas when we keep using trophies, it's a lot more difficult to see. But... I could see making an exception for the party ball only.  I mean, couldn't you just specify the differences between containers?  18:10, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, and there's obviously enough room too. Fixitup
 * Fixitup, why don't you make that edit just to show them what you're talking about. I think it should be pretty quick.  21:06, 3 March 2008 (EST)

We now have ALL of the official artwork for the Items in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Who thinks we should replace the Images in the image section of this article with the Official Artwork?
 * Yeah, the official artwork from today's Dojo article would fit best. - 10:13, 5 March 2008 (EST)
 * This isn't fair at all! You guys didn't even have a proposal about that change! Until there is a proposal, and everyone agrees on one thing, it should stay with the other images. Fixitup
 * I don't think we need a proposal about every tiny thing, we could simply solve issues as they should be in the first place... not by a fight vote, but my talking and persuading. It was neither me nor Pokémon DP who went ahead with the change. - 15:56, 5 March 2008 (EST)
 * 1. Uploading dozens of images that get replaced with no fair reasoning is not a SMALL issue. 2. I didn't insinuate it was you or DP that made the change, I was simply following the posts at hand ('you guys' can refer to anyone). Fixitup
 * Righto, I backup-linked the images from my user space so that they don't get devoured by the unused images hunters (a.k.a people like me) while we're resolving this. - 16:18, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Some Items don't have icons, that's the why the artworks are better

Fixit, its not that we don't appreciate your work. Its not like that at all. You went through a lot of trouble to upload those images, we understand. But, you have to understand, you aren't always the one with the right answer. Official artwork works better than tiny icons from the game. Sorry, but, it just seems a bit more logical to use the official artwork, but, that's what I think of the situation.

It's ok, seriously. I understand the situation. I was obviously just upset because I wasted my time on uploading those icons. Also, I think there should be some notification in the article that certain items aren't the same as others, as items like keys cannot be selected for free play and such. Fixitup

Sounds good to me! Thanks for understanding. And, don't worry, your work on uploading those images was appreciated. ;)

How to unlock the other stages
I'm sure we could wait and all but GameFaqs and BrawlCentral have the info on how to unlock the stages not told on Smashbros.com. BrawlCentral has some good pics you can use too. Here are the links if you wanna edit them in: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/wii/code/928518.html or http://www.brawlcentral.com/content.php?p=hidden_stages --Sabishii Kage 01:05, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Bosses
I was wondering if we could move the bosses down from the story and into the modes section. If they're telling part of the story, I'm sorry, I haven't read it for spoiler purposes, but right now it seems strange that we'd be listing them before anything else about the game. 16:39, 5 March 2008 (EST)

"Make your own music!?"
Whoa whoa, I just read that next to the Electoplankton stage. I think we all need some clarity here. By make your own music do you mean that there's a feature under the options or something thats like a music maker? Or does bouncing on certain things in the stage make music and you just make it as you play? Or can you just simply play any song from MyMusic there? --Sabishii Kage 23:05, 5 March 2008 (EST)


 * Turns out Hanenbow/Electroplankton has no music at all other than fish music and stuff like that. The user probably meant something about choosing any music from MYMUSIC. http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif

Mr. Saturn
I hereby officially propose the removal of the following line from the description of Mr. Saturn: "When the user throw Mr. Saturn into a solid object, he gives a little cry of 'puuu!'" Reason: Irrelevant. 11:42, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * no way, it's an information and isn't irrelevant, all depends of what you think it's Irrelevant.
 * Then, could you please elaborate why it is so important? Or should be descripe sound effects everywhere? - 14:42, 7 March 2008 (EST) "When Mario springs, you can hear a "boing" sound."
 * Besides, the old description was more professional-sounding. --Trogga 14:49, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * This is ridiculous, I like the sound effect descriptions. They make me happy. Leave them be and find something more important to remove. --Sabishii Kage 14:54, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * This probably belongs on the item's page. The item section here is just for big ideas, I always thought.  18:05, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Guys, that line describing its sound effect is highly irrelevant to THIS article. However, there is another article that could use this information.
 * Like I said above. :) ...so you're not alone in this view. 20:44, 7 March 2008 (EST)

2 flippin days
2 days before BRAWL comes out here:-) --Blue Koop 23:56, 7 March 2008 (EST)

This talk page is for discussing problems with the article and ways of improving it, not to discuss how awesome the game is, or to remind us when the game is released.

Clones
A certain someone keeps removing the Clone sentence from the respective Clone Character articles. Flick through Recent Changes, and you'll notice he's been in an edit war on almost all those pages. So, since he thinks he's the only right person, I believe the public should decide wether or not the Clone Characters in Brawl are actually Clones or not. I posted this here, since it refers to all the Brawl Clone Characters in general.
 * "since he thinks he's the only right person" wrong. a lot of people say it, and you dont have brawl, you cant stand an opinion at it. I, however, can explain why they arent clones

If you remember correctly, Jorge - who has the game - also fought your opinion that they aren't clones. I'm just saying, as a Wiki, all the Users should be able to decide if a dilemma like this occurs. I'm not reverting your edits, mind you, I'm waiting to see what others have to say first.
 * "I'm not reverting your edits, mind you", I know, but they aren't clones.
 * Okay, let's think about this: what is the definition of a clone? They can have different stats, such as speed and attack (Cap'n Falcon --> Ganondorf) as long as they have the same special moves.  I think that's how it's been with the Brawl "clones" right?  14:14, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * hmm, no, you can see ganondorf side b is diferent from cpt falcon
 * Not having played the game, I can't say. Who changed from Melee, Ganon or Falcon?  20:58, 16 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Ganondorf is MUCH less a clone now. He is even heavier, has a couple of new smash moves, and his special moves are even different. His Dark dive can do dammage on it's own (as in he doesn't actually have to grab the opponent to do damage to characters in SSE and to hit targets and such) and his Flame Choke is no longer a clone of C. Falcon's Raptor Boost; he now takes off at the player and when he connects he grabs the opponet by the neck, holds them in the air, then laughs and makes an explosion blow them away. There's probably even more differences but I need to play with him more first. Falcon is almost exactly the same except his Falcon Punch can be 180'd in mid-move and has a larger hit radius. Melee had clones imo too, but in Brawl I say there are no clones. Fox, Falco, and Wolf for example may have the same general ideas for their moves (and final smashes of coerce) but are TOTTALY different characters. --Sabishii Kage 02:14, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Totally different? That one made me laugh. Having at least one move the same makes them not totally different. There are less similarities between movesets in Brawl, but there are similarities, big similarities still. Call it "clone" or not, but don't argue against them. E.g., Link and Toon Link are very similar. - 08:28, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Wolf IS tottaly different
 * He has the same Final Smash. One equality => not total (with one t) difference. I didn't say anything more, I don't know the characters. But "totally different" is still an exagarration. - 11:38, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * just da landmaster, and the wolf's landmaster is different

Why don,t we simply say "X characters are moves similar to X character blablabla."? I'm pretty sure "Clone" is a fanmade term, anyway. --Blitzwing 16:30, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Wolf is considerably different compared to Fox, and is not a clone. However, Toon Link and Link have identical moves, up to the final smash. None of the effects of the attack differ, (damage percent does not count) and thus Toon Link is a CLONE. Although changed a little in the new game, it's debatable to whether Falco is a clone of Fox, however.
 * boomerang =/= gale boomerang, clawshot=/= hookshot, his backward aerial is different, too. His down aerial makes a wave when landing. and people, clones = same moveset (ALL) without difference but the effects


 * They changed Wolf's moves. They changed Falco's moves. And with Luigi Tornado, Luigi's much different. But then there's Toon Link. They barely changed him. Sure the arrows go straight and the boomerang just hirs player and bounces back instead of using a tonrado and bringing them closer and stuff but yah. They have the same moves, same Final Smash which works exactly the same, same bombs and same Up B. They didn't change him much! Other than arrow, boomerang and yes of course statistics (he's faster yet weaker) he's a clone. Just because two moves are slightly different, he is still a clone. A proposal should be made, no? http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif And the Clawshot/Hookshot doesn't make that much of a difference.


 * I agree with Jorge. Wolf and Luigi are out of the question, and Falco has been changed some since Melee. As for Toon Link, he is a clone. Clone doesn't mean Identical moveset. If it were, it would be the same character. Just like Mario = Mario (der). Although the names of the attacks are different, the functions are very similar. Conclusion: Toon Link is a Clone.


 * Of course. When I started this whole clone thing, I tried to leave everyone out of the talk except for Toon Link. He's the only one I will consider true clone. http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif
 * Didn't Sakurai say that he was going to avoid repeat characters? He hasn't said anything different yet, has he?  And then the clone term is a conjectural term anyway... I honestly don't see the problem with noting the similarities in movesets, then moving on.  20:09, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * No, he didn't. Fans put it into his mouth. A.k.a "rumor". - 20:11, 17 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Indeed. Te rumor also said that there were 50 characters in the game. Hmm... http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot; http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif
 * Jorge, I'm sure you know this, but just because one rumor was based in fan speculation doesn't mean they all are. For example, the "rumor" that I am currently searching for the source of seems to have at least some roots in this radio interview.  I found you guys a French site, so the translation is off, but you'll get it.  Basically the article claims (maybe you know something about the website?) that Sakurai promised to change Falco so that he wouldn't be a "clone."  Now, if this is really where it all came from, I'll be disappointed.  I'm still looking for the quote that I sincerely believe Sakurai said at some point in time.  It was something to the extent of knowing that people were dissapointed with use of characters based off of other characters, and that he would like to avoid them this time around.  I'll let you know if I have any luck.  21:37, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Okay, so here's the deal: I just realized that the arguement over whether or not this is a rumor is null. What we should be debating is whether the use of a fan-made term is acceptable on a Wiki that typically condemns fan creations as "non-canon" (see Canonicity).  I'm hearing from the vocal members of the support side of this arguement that only special moves matter, yet when we change our focus to another wiki, such as Smash Wiki, they've created "semi-clones" -- characters whose special moves are the same but A button attacks are different, which is exactly what we're seeing in McVader's arguments.  In other words, this entire argument is pointless -- the definition of this unofficial term varies by website.  So, we can either rely on it and cause confusion on the part of the reader, or we can include a few more words on each page to describe that Ganon's special moveset closely replicates Captain Falcon's, but his normal attacks are different.  Your choice.  21:47, 17 March 2008 (EDT)


 * If Sakurai said it, then that must mean the word "clone" is not an unofficial name, no? And if that's so, then how do we know who's a clone, who's not?http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt> http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3473/linkswordmi2.gif

Hmmm... If Sakurai DID, in fact, say something about "clones" in Brawl, then the term is not fan-made. We have no proof on this, however. We have no proof "clone" is an official term. We have no proof that "clones" are decided by similar special moveset. We have no proof that "clones" are decided by moveset and statistics as a whole. I finally realize, we have no proof on ANY of this. As such, I propose we just replace "??? is a clone of ???" with "??? has a similar moveset to ???, but has a few notable differences", or something like that (maybe go a bit more in-depth). We are supposed to make articles longer, anyway.
 * Exactly. The word clone just encourages shortness and no depth of thought, y'know?  By the way, I'm sorry if I'm seeming short tonight.  I've got a really weird cold.  Anyway, Jorge, the quote I'm looking for doesn't mention clones, but he talks about characters who are copies of others.  So, I say go with DP until something comes up that's official.  02:01, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Since it's ALL a matter of opinion, I think none of them should be called "clones", but rather, "character with similliar movesets", because that's what Wolf, Toon Link, Luigi, Falco, and Ganondorf are! HyperToad
 * wolf just has a similiar ( not much ) special moves
 * So? His moves arn't 100% original still. HyperToad Maybe you should read my last comment harder.
 * By this logic, Pichu wasn't a clone of Pikachu as well, because it did damage to itself with them. So either you call all clones, or nobody. - 12:09, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Isn't that interview fake? I mean, it said Ridley and Bowser Jr. would be playable, and Mr. Game & Watch and the Ice Climbers would not. --Trogga 15:20, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think that interview is of issue anymore -- everyone agrees (I think...) that even if Sakurai brought up "clone" characters, he didn't call them that directly. Cobold: If it's all or none, I choose none.  I'm not a fan of fanon terms without definite definitions anyway.  Yesh... all of those non-intentional puns.  15:52, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, it's not clear if Sakurai actually said "clone", or whatever he used to describe similar characters were fan-interpreted as "clones". Also, Ganondorf is far, far from a clone. His moves may look similar to Falcon's, but Ganon is an entirely different character, meaning the effects of the moves, Ganon is a lot bigger, slower, more powerful, and Falcon is slimmer, swifter, and less powerful. They are out of the question. Along with Luigi.

lol jorge, take out da protection of toon link page and that opinion that he is a clone
 * It's not clear if Sakurai said anything on the matter. We need a proposal, ASAP.... maybe I'll do the honors.  18:30, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

SSE Levels?
Should we add pages for the levels of the SSE on the wiki and add a level list to the Brawl article?

Home-Run Bat
Let's get this straight. Is the Home-Run Bat from the world of Smash, or EarthBound? There is a home-run bat in EarthBound, so why is it not from the Mother series? Torngentleman2 12:02, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Important in this case is what the trophy lists as first appearance. In Melee is said that the first appearance of the Home-Run Bat is Super Smash Bros., so it's officially not from EarthBound. The Brawl Trophy seems to do alike. - 12:07, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Costumes
Should costumes be said on the character pages? I am asking here since it isn't just for one character.Alphaclaw11 12:35, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * You can mention Mario's Fire Mario outfit, but "alternate green outfit for Zelda", "alternate red outfit for Luigi" and things like that don't need to be mentioned explicitely. - 12:41, 18 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I just meant stuff like Mario's fire and wario outfit. Wario's mario outfi, Link's dark link outfit, ectAlphaclaw11 12:45, 18 March 2008 (EDT)