Talk:Anti Guy

Not Anti Guy
Just to point this out, Anti Guy's did not appear in YS. Those were Black Shy Guys. Very similar, but different. - Ultimatetoad

Yep, plus they had the flying devices on their backs, and their masks are white. - Yoshi Master

I'll note that they are very similar. 15:53, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Come on guys that pics blurry. - Yoshi Master

Well the game Wasn't the most graphic but you're still right. - User: Thirsty for Power

I've uploaded a new image of Anti Guy; its a little smaller, but at least its not blurry. -- 20:47, 18 March 2009 (EDT)
 * Actually, thats the size of Anti Guy from the game. You can make him bigger by putting [[Image:PM Anti Guy Sprite.png|#ofpx]] . Thanks.

Boss
Should he be noted as an optional boss? Stinkoman20x6 (talk) 14:03, 10 July 2017 (EDT)
 * They're just a standard, strong, and rare enemy. The game doesn't classify them as a boss. 14:31, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

Merge with Black Shy Guy
These are pretty clearly the same thing, particularly since Black Shy Guy has effectively the exact same role as "Anti Guy" here in Color Splash and The Origami King, to say nothing of how the former game's even uses the same name/spelling in the language of origin as this. This is just an outdated early localization, with the only "difference" being that the mask is kinda dark. This is the second part of my step-by-step revising of the Black Shy Guy page.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Deadline: May 3, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to May 10, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to May 17, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to May 24, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per proposal.
 * 2) - this is clearly just a localization that didn't stick.
 * 3) Per proposal. The Paper Mario series is infamous for its inconsistent translations between games.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) The "language of origin" is unneglected on this wiki. I know it took a while after Super Mario Maker released for Parabuzzy to finally merge with Para-Beetle, but that exception was already contested several times before and reached a burnout phase. Fuzzy of all things has a wilder behavioral variation within the Paper Mario series. If we don't split these currently, then I don't see why this must.
 * 6) Two more pieces of evidence: keep in mind the rhyme scheme of Shy Guy's Toy Box enemies: Spy Guy, Sky Guy, Medi Guy, Pyro Guy... They could've just done "Anti Guy" for the theme naming. Also, just like CS and TOK, Anti Guys are a species rather than an individual character, with four appearing in the game.
 * 7) After some personal thinking, along with looking at certain other articles such as Goomboss and Galoomba, I probably didn't think out my original vote reasoning well enough.
 * 8) Opposed at first, but then read the proposal again and saw that the exact same roles of them are in CS and TOK just named Black Shy Guy.

Oppose

 * 1) Merging subjects based on the "language of origin" is one thing that just doesn't do it for me. Their role isn't the exact same; in Paper Mario the Anti Guy is an optional enemy and they attack like Shy Guys except their attacks are as powerful as getting hit by a lorry, while in Color Splash and Origami King the Black Shy Guys are mandatory to be fought, and behave differently from the Anti Guy; the ones in Color Splash has the ability to dodge attacks like a Ninji, and the ones in Origami King attack with their biggest paper fans. I know it's still not the same behaviour in the latter two games, but this is just my reasoning.
 * 2) Per Keyblade.
 * 3) - Keeping this as it is helps it stand out with the rest of the Paper Mario Shy Guys. Doesn't matter what "Creator's intent" or "Localizer's intent" is on a grand basis (which is something you probably won't even know anyway unless you were in the room with them during the decision), the guy's name is "Anti Guy" and he behaves differently (and is much more notable from) the other Black Shy Guys in the series, so that is what we report on.
 * 4) The similar color scheme of both the Anti Guy and Black Shy Guy does not mean they are both equal. Alex95 and Keyblade have also made good points on their different attributes, though even if it's because Paper Mario and Color Splash/Origami King are radically different titles, there isn't much evidence to suggest that the Anti Guys are just Black Shy Guys.
 * 5) Per Keyblade Master, especially with the "getting hit by a truck vs. dodge like a Ninji" analogy.
 * 6) See my comments below.
 * 7) I feel like this would be the least confusing to our readers.
 * 8) Per Keyblade Master and Alex95.
 * 9) - Per Alex95. I feel the game establishes clearly on a few occasions that these are not to be considered the same as other, more run-of-the-mill Shy Guys.

Comments
@Keyblade Master Considering the same creative team (Intelligent Systems) seems to consider them the same thing (and Anti Guy's JP name is literally just "Black Heyho"), it seems rather clear-cut to me. "Creator's intent" will always trump an inconsistent "localizer's intent." Regardless, adding additional behaviors in a game 16 or so years later hardly makes them a different thing, especially when at the core they're still just a more difficult variation of a basic enemy (which also had different behavior in all three games. Of course the derivative's going to have different behavior if the base does). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:58, April 19, 2021 (EDT)
 * Sorry if you've already answered this question, but what is your proof that they are considered the same thing? 10:48, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * It's a much bigger leap in logic to say that "Black Heyho" and "Black Heyho," both of which are trickier versions of the respective game's "Heyho" are different than to say they are the same, particularly when the same dev team is working on them. What more "proof" do I need? It seems like common sense to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:18, April 20, 2021 (EDT)

@ArchivistToadette You supported this idea here, though. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:18, April 20, 2021 (EDT)

I was initially on the fence about this one; it is far from the worst Japanese name-centric merge suggestion I've seen. After all, Anti Guy is little more than a palette swap that just happens to be really powerful, and the "Triple Anti-Guy Assault" in Bowser's Castle proves they're a species rather than an individual. However, not only is this the only time black Shy Guys have been portrayed this way, the later Paper Mario games are quite distanced from the older ones (honestly, Mario Party 5 acknowledges the first PM more than later PM games do), meaning the developers of CS and TOK weren't necessarily thinking about Anti Guy when they put black Shy Guys in those games (though there's no proof that they weren't either). On top that, the repeated "language of origin" arguments are simply not convincing to me, never have been, never will be. Koopa the Quick is not a distinct character in Japanese, yet we still have an article on him for multiple good reasons. And what about Red Spike Top? You know, that thing that's totally the same thing as a regular Spike Top but is somehow separate because "regular" Spike Tops in TTYD and no other PM game (or any other game I can think of off the top of my head) are blue for some reason? I'm open to changing my mind on this, but it'll take some very compelling evidence. 16:09, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * Why are you acting as though my secondary point is my main point...? Also, in case you've forgotten, I supported merging Red Spike Top. Koopa the Quick also isn't a good example since normal Troopas appear as "enemies" in the same game and are clearly distinct. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:17, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * When I said "repeated" I wasn't referring to you specifically, but the votes supporting the proposal (particularly LTL's) focusing heavily on the "language of origin" point, which tends to turn me off simply by nature. I should have been clearer about that; I was trying to avoid bloating my already sorta lengthy comment because I originally intended it as my vote reasoning.
 * I know you supported the Red Spike Top merge. Again, I should have clarified this, but the comment was more directed at the proposal itself than you specifically. The point I was trying to make was that regardless of your support (and me proposing it to begin with), the proposal still failed, which makes the case against Anti Guy worse in my eyes, because I have a hard time seeing that PM-specific palette swap as a separate thing and not this.
 * As for Koopa the Quick, it wasn't meant to be a perfect comparison to Anti Guy, but simply an example of how Japanese names don't always dictate how we cover things. But based on your response, it's sounds like you're saying you would totally support merging him with Koopa Troopa if there were no "regular" Troopas in the game. 16:57, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * Your last point is good for future reference. If only one member of an otherwise recurring species appears in a game, this individual being almost indistinct from other members of its species down to sharing the same Japanese name, do we merge its hypothetical article to the article that describes the species in general terms? I think we need to set a standard with this situation. 17:12, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * If there weren't normal Troopas, he'd probably have been merged before I joined the wiki. And I'd probably support it. After all....his name is still "Koopa" in English. NPCs are admittedly in a bit more of a wishy-washy situation though, considering how MPA ones are currently handled. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:17, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
 * @7feetunder: For reference, my "language of origin" remark in my supporting vote was directed more at the first opposing vote (Keyblade Master's) than Doc's proposal. Regarding Red Spike Top, I think color variations in RPGs are a somewhat trickier situation than they are otherwise. I'd probably have included an extra option to merge Red Spike Top with Spike Top and split the default blue Spike Top as "Spike Top (blue)" covering The Thousand-Year Door and Super Paper Mario, except that no longer factors the recent blue Spike Top in Super Mario Maker 2. That's neither here nor there, however. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:50, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * The main reason I think that is to hopefully avoid confusing the majority of readers who are used to having this split already and don't know about the Japanese name. Fuzzies is a pretty bad comparison, since they have the same name in all languages and look the same as in the other games, so they clearly are supposed to be the same thing. My vote reasoning was more pointed at their behaviour anyway. 09:03, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * If we operated on that logic, I don't think this wiki would look quite the same. Anti Guy doesn't even look much different from the usual depiction of a Black Shy Guy (which was only established one game prior) - as noted, the mask is slightly darker, but this may be more due to palette limitations, as individual sprites in the first Paper Mario have a more limited range of colors than later games. This might also be due to lighting, but darker Shy Guys in Mario Kart DS seem to have a darker mask too, at least going by in-game model screenshots. As for Fuzzy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't named in most other languages until Paper Mario anyway, so there aren't many previous localizations to compare. And I agree with Doc regarding base enemy changes between games. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:39, April 21, 2021 (EDT)

The "hypothetically confusing our readers" logic is one I really don't like; you could say the same for putting the SMW Galoombas back fully into the Goomba article. And shouldn't our role be to clear up confusion by having the same subject be on the same page rather than perpetuate it by keeping them split? If that's your primary reasoning, you're by default saying you believe they are indeed the same thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:37, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'd rather you didn't refer to it as "logic", and honestly I'm not sure I'm mentally prepared to keep going with this discussion. I may just need to think more clearly about all this. 12:56, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * This is coming off as a severe level of "don't question my opposition," which I do not appreciate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:22, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * I just want to point out a logical error with leaving Anti Guy as-is: as mentioned in the proposal, this is Doc's second step in revising the Black Shy Guy page; the first step is handling Yoshi's Story information (I will recheck guides later before redeciding my stance on it). Now, Anti Guy is considered a variant of Black Shy Guy. However, if the first step succeeds either way but the second step fails, wouldn't Black Shy Guy have technically debuted after its variant? If that alone isn't "confusing to readers," I don't know what to tell you. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:58, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * That's more of an argument that this proposal should have waited until the YS one was over than it is an argument for merging Anti Guy. 17:53, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * Well, the split in question has happened now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:26, May 17, 2021 (EDT)

@Scrooge200: While your second statement is a legitimate point (I even mentioned it in a previous comment), that first bit is not evidence, it's blatant grasping at straws. Your claim that the Shy Guy's names rhyme isn't even true; it blatantly ignores that "pyro" has a second syllable and assumes that "Medi Guy" is pronounced with a hard "I" when "medic", the word it's clearly derived from, is pronounced with a soft "i". And where do Groove Guy, Stilt Guy, and General Guy fit in this theme naming that only exists in your imagination? 18:21, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * Still, it applies to at least half of the enemies here; also Pyro Guy and Medi Guy if you're willing to stretch it a bit, because there aren't other fitting descriptions for them that rhyme with "guy." I still feel Anti Guy is just a translation invention, especially considering that him, the CS Black Shy Guys, and the TOK Black Shy Guys have completely different manners of speaking. 18:32, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
 * I'm not willing to stretch it a bit. If you have to "stretch it", it's probably not good evidence. Counting General Guy and Big Lantern Ghost (but not Kammy's summoned chest guardians), only 4 out of 12 enemies (including the regular Shy Guys) in SGTT fit this alleged rhyme scheme. "Sky Guy" and "Spy Guy" were likely chosen to sound similar to "Shy Guy", but that doesn't mean there's a theme. You already have much better points, so I don't know why you're trying to sell this Swiss cheese "rhyming" argument as evidence. 18:51, April 21, 2021 (EDT)

@Stooben And you're saying the CS and TOK ones are? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:57, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
 * Color Splash and The Origami King seem to establish their use of Black Shy Guys to be just enemies (barring an exception in Violet Passage where one is a mini-boss, but the same type of Shy Guy is then again encountered later in Fort Cobalt as just a generic enemy). Paper Mario establishes Anti Guy(s) to be a more fearsome foe that are only included in the game as optional bosses. The boss battles cannot be fled from, and Goombario's tattle goes as far as to let the player know "hey this guy is so tough that it's earned the moniker Deadly Guy", which I feel further exemplifies their difference from a Black Shy Guy. If Anti-Guys would have appeared as a generic enemy, I would probably feel differently. 19:25, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
 * Same can be said about Hammer Bro in SMRPG. Basing splits across role differences between games is flimsy at best. (Also, their PM battle music is the "tough normal enemy battle" theme used in certain encounters with, say, Putrid Piranhas and Magikoopas rather than a "boss" I'd say). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:32, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
 * Duly noted about the music. Are there generic enemies (like Magikoopa and Putrid Piranha) that appear only in a setting where the player cannot flee from battle, though? It's been a minute since I last played Paper Mario and can't recall. Also, since you bring up Hammer Bro, what is your opinion on this article that is split based on their role difference in that game? 20:55, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
 * I personally see that Hammer Bro thing as merely an artifact from when that article was "L33T H4MM3R BR0Z" and that it could be merged now probably seeing as they are the sole representatives of that game. As for other enemies like that, I believe most alternate Magikoopa colors are only found in such scenarios, even the red, green, and white ones which appear as (slightly altered) generic enemies in TTYD. Maybe Duplighosts too, but I could be wrong on that one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:04, May 17, 2021 (EDT)