MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Remove Zelda Wiki as an interwiki link
Before I continue, please note that I am not trying to insult anyone or ask to unlink from Zelda Wiki's articles entirely. I'm just proposing to remove  as an interwiki link, and am curious to hear what the others think of this idea. If the consensus is oppose, like my proposal on allowing link to Fandom wikis, then at least we know, and it could perhaps set a precedent (like my aforementioned proposal set the precedent of a case-by-case basis for possible follow-up proposals).

While it is true that many of us here do not like Zelda Wiki, I feel that, regardless of opinion, it is redundant to have a specific interwiki link for ZW, primarily because Wikia/Fandom itself has an interwiki link, and their specific wikis can be linked to from the Wikia template. Zelda Wiki has been on Fandom for three years ever since the Gamepedia acquisition, and are just as much owned by them as the other wikis on Fandom. The only difference is that Zelda Wiki is in NIWA (they pass themselves off as independent when all of us know that's not true), and NIWA itself originated from Zelda Wiki if you look into the history.

However, at the same time I have a few reserves about them being removed as an interwiki link. My main reserve is over the NIWA template, which would need to be edited to have ZW specifically change to Fandom. Another thing is that Mario Wiki is a part of NIWA (might not be on the best of terms at this point), and there are editors here who edit on other wikis, especially WiKirby and Nookipedia, so having Zelda Wiki as an interwiki link would be a way to acknowledge that it is still a member (and the original founding member) of NIWA.

What would be an ideal way to acknowledge that Zelda Wiki is a part of NIWA, which Mario Wiki is in, but that Zelda Wiki is no more "independent" than other wikis on Fandom itself? If this proposal does not pass, I still wonder how we can address such a distinction. Also, like I said, Zelda Wiki has been owned by Fandom for a few years.

Proposer: Deadline: April 28, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per reasons listed above.
 * 2) If we have to start somewhere, let's call a spade a spade.
 * 3) I agree. I really don't care if it's "a lot of work", because if that mattered we'd be over-turning every unfinished proposal for being "a lot of work".

Oppose

 * 1) I really don't see any benefit to this. The whole thing is a lot of work for what will be visually and functionally be the same, and seems more like it's just trying to make a statement than anything. Similarly, you could argue that we don't need Wikipedia interlinks because of Template:Wp (or vice-versa), but the amount of effort involved in swapping things out is very high compared to the benefit which is practically zero. Also, what if ZeldaWiki ends up moving off of Wikia in the future? Unlikely, admittedly, but then we'd have to go back and reverse all the changes instead of an easy swap of just changing the destination of all ZeldaWiki links.
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time, doing this wouldn't really result in anything.
 * 3) This is generally more of a NIWA responsibility than MarioWiki, so I think this proposal falls out of scope. I do not think it'll be a lot of work as claimed, however, as I believe a bot or something similar can take care of any repetitive tasks like this. As for the possibility of readding links, it'll help if we could instead redirect links, but this requires finding a new Wiki for the Legend of Zelda to associate anyway, which this proposal doesn't concern with.

Comments
I did try to make this proposal not look like a statement, although it might have inevitably creeped its way in. Part of why I did the proposal is to see others' thoughts on this idea. Results May Vary (talk) 15:06, April 21, 2022 (EDT)

Admittedly (talking to Bazooka), I wanted to make a proposal to replace all the ZW interwiki links with Zelda Dungeon Wiki interwiki links, although ZW is a better wiki name as the latter attaches their fansite name. If anything I hoped ZD Wiki would inherit the Zeldapedia name at this point. Results May Vary (talk) 07:45, April 22, 2022 (EDT)

Create an article for Classic Mode
I am proposing the creation of Classic Mode, the main mode of the Super Smash Bros. series in each of its installments. Generally, I've noticed with Super Smash Bros.-related modes that if they only appear in one game, they're covered on the page itself, which is understandable (although a separate talk page proposal of mine gives reasons for recreating Adventure Mode: The Subspace Emissary, exclusive to Super Smash Bros. Brawl). There are articles for some modes, such as Break the Targets and Home-Run Contest, which are featured in several Super Smash Bros. games. Home-Run Contest is no different for each fighter, including Mario ones, whereas Classic Mode has differences per fighters, or even a set path, in most of the Super Smash Bros. installments. I'll make a paragraph for each Super Smash Bros. game, highlighting their Mario-related content in Classic Mode (including differences for fighters).

In Super Smash Bros., the mode is named 1P Game. It features three minigames, Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish!, with the former two having a different layout for each fighter. Metal Mario is a unique fighter in this mode, as Metal Boxes would only debut in the second game, and is even given his own stage to fight on. The stages are always accessed in a consistent order, with the Mario franchise-related battles being the Yoshi Team (stage 2), Mario Bros. (stage 4), Giant Donkey Kong (stage 6) and, as aforementioned, Metal Mario (stage 9), so four of the battles take place against Mario fighters, with one of them specifically featuring Metal Mario and a unique stage for him (Meta Crystal).

In Super Smash Bros. Melee, the mode is named Classic, and while the characters and stages are now randomized, the set up remains the same (like how Master Hand is fought at the end or that Snag the Trophies is the sixth stage). The opponent fighters are always fought on a specific stage representing their franchise (e.g. Mario is fought at either Princess Peach's Castle or on Rainbow Cruise & Luigi is always fought in one of the Mushroom Kingdom stages). A majority of the Giant battles have more than 50% chance of fighting a Mario character (Mario, Yoshi, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Donkey Kong, and Bowser), and they make up 6 of the 10 possible opponents (the others being Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, and Young Link). There is a Metal battle, and the scripted fight with Metal Mario has been moved into Adventure mode (something that can be noted on Classic Mode article if it's created). A few of the unlock rewards are Mario-related (like the DK Jr trophy or Dr. Mario) and, of course, the fighter-specific trophy won from completing the mode. The congratulations message at the end is different for each fighter as well (and Adventure even has their own congratulations message for each of the fighters).

In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Classic Mode's layout is randomized per franchise (e.g. a Yoshi or a DK battle always occurs on stage 2). Just like in Super Smash Bros. Melee, there are a few Mario-related unlock rewards (aside from the character-specific trophies), such as the Paper Mario trophy or Luigi in an unlock match if no continues have been used. As usual, with Mario having several series and a few related franchises, the Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong franchises are also part of the randomization (Wario is randomly selected in Stage 10 between either it, Metal Gear, or Sonic however).

In Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS, Classic mode has paths, many of them being marked by a random franchise symbol, giving more control as to which path to take. For instance, if one were to take the path with the DK symbol, the opponent and stage from that franchise is selected. In Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, Classic is set up like a tournament, and while the game randomly selects the fighters, one can see whom they can fight before starting the battle (and a faint preview of the stage where the battle occurs is shown beneath them). Also take note how the opponent and stage are not always from the same series, even in single-opponent battles (e.g. there's a possibility of fighting Mario on a The Legend of Zelda stage).

In Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, every fighter has their own predetermined path in Classic Mode and even their own titles (e.g. Donkey Kong's Classic Mode path is "Journey to New Donk City"). A majority of the fighters fight Master Hand at the end. In the case of Mario and Captain Falcon, the final boss is Giga Bowser.

So yeah, as demonstrated above, Classic Mode is different between each of its appearances, and when I listed the differences and instances of when the game randomizes things, I used Mario-related elements as an example. Let me know if I've missed anything Mario-related in this proposal.

Proposer: Deadline: April 23, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per reasons stated above.

Oppose

 * 1) Classic Mode is so wildly different between games that I just think it's covered better on the individual game pages. Also, the amount of Mario content doesn't really matter, given that there are recurring modes in Mario games we don't split such as Time Trial.
 * 2) Per Hewer
 * 3) Per Hewer. It's rare for game modes to warrant separate articles as is, so a game mode from Smash is even harder to justify an article for.
 * 4) I'm leaning towards Hewer on this one.
 * 5) Per all, plus, given we're trying to limit Smash content on the wiki a bit, this seems like a step in the wrong direction.
 * 6) Per all, since directly Mario-related modes often do not even get articles, and I also prefer to limit Smash content rather than expand it.

Comments
Keep in mind that Funky Fishing is very different between Donkey Kong Country's Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance releases yet they share an article, although one could make the case that it's for a Mario-related game. Results May Vary (talk) 15:32, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * To be fair, I think Funky Fishing (GBC) / Funky's Fishing (GBA) is a prime candidate for a split following the expected pass of the Donkey Kong Country remakes proposal, and it's a minigame instead of a main game mode. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:54, April 16, 2022 (EDT)

Also, if the information cannot be presented in Classic Mode article, does it get presented on the SSB series article (assuming this proposal fails)? Results May Vary (talk) 15:44, April 16, 2022 (EDT)
 * It would be presented on each of the individual game articles, considering how different Classic Mode is between games. 15:53, April 16, 2022 (EDT)

Time Trial is listed as an example of a mode that doesn't have its own page, but Battle Mode does appear to be split (it has seen also one drastic variation being the Mario Kart 8 one, but you can argue Battle Mode, at least Balloon Battle, doesn't differ as drastically as Classic Mode); Super Duel Mode also has its own page but I do agree that it has enough content and would weigh down Mario Party 5 more than Classic Mode in those respective pages. As BBQ Turtle said, I'd still not really support this proposal on grounds that it's a creep on Super Smash Bros. and I just don't think Classic Mode is quite notable enough for a MarioWiki article. 20:45, April 16, 2022 (EDT)

Create a Smash Bros. DOJO!! images category and/or an Official screenshots category
So something that I've been trying on the SSB Wiki is a category of the official Smash Bros. DOJO!! images (as well as their higher quality press variants), which is categorized within an Official screenshots category. Smash Bros. DOJO!! was a notable official website where people would get official information and updates on SSB Brawl before and some a bit after its time of release. This proposal is not asking to extend the SSB coverage, but there's a large number of screenshots on the website that feature Mario characters and stages, including ones of them using items (such as the Cracker Launcher). Even if it's not SSB Brawl, it would be useful to keep a record of all the official screenshots from either press kits or from Nintendo directly and then include them on this website (even if some may inevitably be JPG files).

Even if there were subsequent proposals to further simplify/trim SSB content (hence the reason why I made the wiki), we could at least emphasize the Mario-related content within the SSB series (for instance, in the Adventure section of the SSB Melee article, I noted yesterday how the first two stages represent the Mario and Donkey Kong franchises respectively and that the final boss, Giant Bowser, is from Mario and even its exclusive form, Giga Bowser, being exclusive to the SSB games), and the Smash Bros. DOJO!! images category would keep a record of all the Mario-related images on the SSB DOJO!!. There have been times when there have been different screenshots between the different languages of Smash Bros. DOJO!! (such as the Home-Run Contest; although the screenshot features Lucas and Pikachu, neither from Mario, it shows how the American English screenshot uses the imperial system whereas the British English screenshot uses the metric system [ft and meters respectively]).

There might be more that I'm missing, but I think these are at least the basic points, and more can be noted within the comments. Keep in mind I did note how even if there were proposals to further simplify the SSB coverage (which I would oppose personally) the Smash Bros. DOJO!! images category would at least keep a record of the multitude of Mario-related images posted on that website (including the higher quality press variations). In fact, it could even be used as a point for others to simplify SSB coverage (which, again, I'd oppose) to point out the Smash Bros. DOJO!! images with Mario-related elements within them.

On a side note, SSB Melee's Japanese website was called Smabura-Ken, which is Japanese for Smash Bros. DOJO!!, so if we are to make an image category from that as well (this can be decided after the proposal), would it be called [https://smashbroswiki.com/wiki/Category:Sumabura_ken!!_images Sumabura ken!! images]?

Proposer: Deadline: April 22, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Create both

 * 1) Per reasons stated above.
 * 2) Per proposal.

Create only the Smash Bros. DOJO!! images category

 * 1) Though only relevant to one game, it bore somewhat more of a reputation compared to the average promotional website, in no small part due to it hosting Sakurai's update feed. Therefore, making a category for images that specifically originate from it conforms to a previous, passed proposal. I'm not sure about making an "Official screenshots" category, however, largely because it would entail the huge undertaking of going over each screenshot, hunting down some press kit and whatnot that it's sourced from, and dropping it into the category accordingly. It's not a bad idea--I believe that it wouldn't conflict with the fair use screenshot categories--but I reckon the process should have already been in place long ago to make it viable.
 * 2) Per Koopa con Carne.
 * 3) Per Koopa con Carne.
 * 4) Per K the C.
 * 5) Per Koopa con Carne.

Create a The Legend of Zelda series article and/or a "Related series" category
This proposal is a follow-up to my The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening proposal below and possibly a fallback option in the event that The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening does not get its own article. Currently, it and other non-Mario franchises exist in the form of a category (such as Category:The Legend of Zelda series), especially if they have been featured within the Super Smash Bros. games. None of these categories fall under "Related series," which list the franchises and/or series that have crossed over with Mario before but are otherwise not a part of the overall Mario franchise (perhaps Porple can make a distinction for Related series categories and articles for like Super Smash Bros. series respectively). If Related series isn't created but The Legend of Zelda series is (I'll still leave the option below, as Related series would apply to more series/franchises), then it would go under Category:Game series as if it were part of the main Mario franchise when it is actually not.

The Legend of Zelda is a specific case, given how many times it has featured Mario-related elements within its games (like Mario enemies having guest appearances within The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening), often shares a development team with those creating a Super Mario series title around the same time (e.g. Super Mario Odyssey and The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, although this does not signify any relation to Mario but just adds to my point of how Zelda is often developed concurrently with Mario), or even a complimentary release (such as how Game & Watch: The Legend of Zelda released a year after Game & Watch: Super Mario Bros. and is parallel in how it is created).

The degree of how The Legend of Zelda-related media is connected to Mario has varied; for instance, the television series has some direct connection to the Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, particularly in the form of advertisements and mentions within the Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, but is made clear that the two are separate, whereas Nintendo Cereal System has both Mario and The Legend of Zelda within the same box. Some publications, such as Nintendo Adventure Books and the Game Boy Advance book series, while they are not Mario-specific, feature both Mario and Zelda books within the series, so both franchises have often been outsourced together (perhaps most famously, the Philips CD-i games or the aforementioned DiC Entertainment cartoons of Zelda and Super Show!). I'll get to describing some of the game-specifics in another paragraph, but the short explanation to this paragraph is that Mario and Zelda have been outsourced to third-parties on different occasions, especially in the 1980s & 1990s.

It would be convenient to have a History section in a The Legend of Zelda series article that lists every time when The Legend of Zelda has been outsourced alongside Mario or when ideas from Mario games were reused/used instead in Zelda and vice versa, although the finer details to the The Legend of Zelda series article can be worked out if this proposal were to pass (and yes, per the ZD Wiki/Triforce Wiki External links proposal, we'd add link for both of those alongside the usual ZW link in the NIWA box as well as in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening article, provided that proposal passes), as there are several ideas and ways of how one could go about it and would probably require a group effort to really put the article all together.

Link's Awakening aside, there are other instances of guest appearances within the Mario franchise, as early as the first The Legend of Zelda itself (with Manhandla), especially with enemies and sometimes even hazardous objects (like Fire bars). However, creating an article for every The Legend of Zelda game with a guest appearance and/or derivative would be possibly going overboard (at least for the time being), so they would fall under The Legend of Zelda series article itself (particularly under a Games section or something). Again, finer details can be worked out after this proposal, but we could possibly have infoboxes for some of the other Zelda games with guest appearances (like The Minish Cap) to reflect that these are still games with a guest appearance whereas if a Zelda game only consists of cameos (Ocarina of Time comes to mind) it would not have an infobox, possibly as distinction between cameo & guest appearance, but again, the details can be worked out later. I probably mentioned this in the Link's Awakening proposal, but Capcom games (Oracle of Seasons/Ages, Four Swords, and The Minish Cap) have had a tendency to reuse Mario enemies or even introduce them (such as Lakitu in The Minish Cap). Hyrule Warriors, which is not a part of the main The Legend of Zelda series, features a derivative of the Ball & Chain item that features Chain Chomp). In this case, should we call the article The Legend of Zelda (franchise)? This can also be decided after the proposal.

Oh, before I forget, Mario & Zelda Big Band Live also features both Mario and Zelda like the Nintendo Cereal System.

Proposer: Deadline: April 21, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Create both

 * 1) Per reasons listed above.

Create only The Legend of Zelda series article

 * 1) We know that the developers exchanged a fair amount of concepts between projects in the early days, such as Fire Bars and Chain Chomps originally being designed for Zelda but ending up in Mario games first, and while the latter is more recognizably Mario, the former became just as much of a Zelda element. As this is/was a recurrent practice, having one general article makes much more sense to me than a particular game.
 * 2) Second option

Create neither

 * 1) No offense, but this is going a teensy tiny massive amount of distance too far. The "Related Series" category you're proposing just sounds like an attempt to stretch our coverage barrier as thin as it can. Where does the line of "Related Series" and "Mario Element cameos in it" end under this proposed idea? Same Development Team? Uses elements from Mario? Some sort of dialogue hinting at it? It can be stretched as far thin as it can under these circumstances, and I feel like our current "List of Mario References in X_MEDIA_SUBGENRE" pages handle this situation better than any supposed "Related Series" category could. Also, how is the SMO point valid? Nintendo EPD just makes anything Major Nintendo, and I feel like us making pages for every non-Mario thing they made would just be a million miles overboard. And besides this, I feel like this is the start(or heck even mid-start considering recent proposals) of a super slippery slope; if we make articles for everything that's even 0.00000001% Mario related, why don't we make articles for everything ever? Making pages for the LOZ series for crossing over with Mario and having some ideas from it would lead to us doing the same for things like Sonic, which has a closer connection to Mario during the 90's "war" and shares a spin-off with Mario, and we'd just be pushing and pushing the border of "what qualifies as Mario?" until it breaks. Why not make articles for all the series that are costumes in SMM? or all the franchises in SSB? Or on other series that have similar scenrios to Zelda but a lesser extent(ex. Desentsu no Stafy with its assets in SPP and Wario in one of its games, Rhythm Heaven for being more and more prominent in the Warioware series, Duck Hunt for being grouped with SMB back in the NES days, and so on)? And why not franchises related to those related franchises? Why not make articles for every series Mario cameos in? It goes on far too long. We don't need to make full-fledged articles for everything with nods to Mario in it.
 * 2) per Somethingone.
 * 3) Per Somethingone. Of course Nintendo's two most popular franchises will reference and promote each other on occasion, but this is going overboard.
 * 4) Per Somethingone. I'm not sure what new I could add the conversation that hasn't been said.
 * 5) Per Somethingone.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all. Recent proposals have been made with the intent to place restrictions and cut down on the wiki's Super Smash Bros. content, which suggests an intent within the community to cut down our coverage of topics that are less directly-related to the Mario franchise. There is no problem with having limited coverage of games with Mario-related aspects, such as Densetsu no Starfy 3 or even the proposed The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening article. There are defintely plenty of references to Mario in The Legend of Zelda series as well as other Nintendo series, but I feel that covering those stretches our coverage policy and I feel that a line should be drawn there. Articles related to those series generally have links to outside coverage of the series, and honestly I feel that that is enough for series that are not directly connected to Mario.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per.
 * 11) Per all. Zelda is a completely different franchise from Mario only connected through Easter Eggs and Smash Bros.

Comments
I understand that a "The Legend of Zelda (franchise)" article would detail convergent points in the developments of both it and the Mario franchise, but what distinction would there be between a "Related franchises" page, as delineated by the proposal, and the current List of Mario references in Nintendo video games? I don't recall there being as much overlap in the development histories of Mario and other franchises as much as there is between Mario and Zelda (both have largely been the responsibility of a few internal divisions), and outward, fictional references (e.g. DK barrels appear in whatever Kirby game) are already covered by the aforementioned list. 14:22, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * Very good point. The way I imagined it is like, with Legend of Zelda, the cameos are specifically listed on List of Mario references in Nintendo video games, the guest appearances moved to the Zelda franchise article, and being added directly beneath the The Legend of Zelda series section on that references page. The distinction would be "what makes a cameo and what makes a guest appearance," so if Mario only ever cameoed in a game or its series, it would not count as "Related series/franchise." Results May Vary (talk) 14:32, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * To Somethingone, I know we don't need article for everything with slight nod to Mario (makes me think of Generic subjects as well), but I was noting how The Legend of Zelda series has GUEST APPEARANCES of Mario enemies within their games (not to be confused with CAMEOS), and doing a series approach rather than individual games (for time being) could concentrate/organize the information better. Related series in NO WAY implies that Zelda is a part of Mario -- it just highlights the Mario-related aspects, primarily the guest appearances, whereas cameos,while also mentioned, are an added bonus (as the References page is for that). Results May Vary (talk) 14:39, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * And that's also an issue. Who's to say that Mario-franchise enemies and characters have never and will never appear in other series? Going back to my vote and under this proposal's reasoning, Wario makes a Guest Appearance in DnS and has an impact to the gameplay, so why not make an article about its entire series? Rhythm Heaven shares many characters with Warioware (like how Young Cricket is the star of one of its games), so why not make a page for that entire series? The Sonic franchise has its own spinoff shared with Mario, and has a much more eventful history with Mario than Zelda, so wny not make a page for the Sonic series? What about the franchises that made Guest Appearances in Mario Kart 8, or all the Mario elements added recently to Animal Crossing? These things can go on and on forever, and I feel like pushing our coverage specifically for Zelda would not only stretch our coverage, but be inconsistent with every other series that have had/made guest appearances from/with the mario franchise. Somethingone (talk) 14:55, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * I get your concern. As for Guest appearances of like Animal Crossing in Mario Kart 8, that could be noted on the Animal Crossing series category, as there's nowhere near as much history between guest/cameo appearances within Mario. Also, Mario and Sonic, yes they were rivals, and Olympic Games aside, there's little direct connection between Mario and Sonic, especially within the other games (also consider Nintendo and Sega are diff companies). The Mario vs Sonic in the 90s was a sub-war of the main console wars of that era as well. Also, Densetsu no Starfy 3, while did have Wario as guest appearance, I think the rest had just cameos. Results May Vary (talk) 15:02, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * Here's the problem with those examples you listed: all of those guest/crossover appearances are pretty much basic 1:1 representations of how they appear in their original series/games; Zelda appearances, on the other hand, tend to "Zelda-ify" the Mario enemies and make them their own interpretation (some of them, like Fire Bars and Lava Bubbles, go under alternate names, even in Japanese). Link's Awakening might have one of the most Nintendo IP references, but it's far from the only game to do this; it doesn't even have things like Podoboo Tower or Head Thwomp, which evolve the distinctly Mario-derived concepts further. The Switch remake does, however, mostly preserve the original Zelda-twisted nuances inherent in their designs, i.e. it does not "modernize" them like in, for instance, the Mario & Luigi remakes. In my assessment, this is not comparable. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:59, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

Side note, I also seem to recall that one of the early games (I'm thinking The Legend of Zelda or The Adventure of Link) was tentatively pitched as "Mario Adventure" (not the "Death Mountain" working title), but I can't seem to find that info at the moment. If true, that must've been very early on in development, when Shigeru Miyamoto wanted Mario to be his signature "Mr. Video Game" character and before the themes got finalized. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:47, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * And Miyamoto also pitched Splatoon as a Mario game at one point, doesn't mean we make a Splatoon series page. Somethingone (talk) 15:15, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * This wasn't the main basis of the argument -- it was just a sidenote that he gave (to all the other points that I made within the proposal above). Results May Vary (talk) 15:21, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * And I'm allowed to refute their side note just like a normal argument point. Somethingone (talk) 15:30, April 14, 2022 (EDT)
 * Sure, but I did stress that it's according to memory. It comes across like you have an axe to grind here. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:59, April 14, 2022 (EDT)

Opposers - By all means, please elucidate why a series article is out of the question but Link's Awakening below apparently is not. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:25, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
 * Link's Awakening in particular has a lot of specific references to Mario for it to count on the same level as, say, Captain Rainbow, but I don't think some cross-promotions and shared developers are enough to extend that to the whole series. By this logic we could also have an article on the Punch-Out!! series because of Mario as the referee and Donkey Kong as an opponent, but instead we only cover the Wii game because it's the most relevant to Mario. 06:35, April 15, 2022 (EDT)
 * Again, though, Zelda has had recurring Mario elements for such a long time that it's practically to be expected, especially the 2D games. Link's Awakening is notable, sure, but it also has more references to other Nintendo properties than other games in the series on top of that, including Kirby's Dream Land, The Frog For Whom the Bell Tolls, and even the SNES version of SimCity. If anything, that's the game with the so-called cross-promotions (though I wouldn't really call it that outside of maybe the side-scrolling sections trying to be reminiscent of Super Mario Bros.). That's why I don't particularly agree with a specific game being covered, but would instead prefer a generalized solution (which would include said game). Further, I don't buy the presented earlier for the reasons I explained. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:09, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Ignoring that I think "follow-up/fallback" proposals shouldn't run concurrently with whatever they're related to, I think the focus of this proposal is misplaced. Unless it was already done in the past, it should be on deciding where the series fits as outlined in the coverage policy. That would not only make future action clearer, but it would also alleviate concerns about where the line is drawn. 12:43, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Just also going to note that I'm tired of seeing The Legend of Zelda within the source text mainly because of the uppercase identifier (ZW does uppercase for section header & identifier), so another perk of this passing would be that there could some less of that. Results May Vary (talk) 15:48, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Another thing is that, Link's Awakening aside, the Zelda games (specifically some of the earlier 2D ones) are not "references" with their inclusion of Mario enemies, so if if a series page isn't going to be made, would individual articles be made then (if List of Mario references in Nintendo video games were to cover ONLY cameos)? Would seem redundant, or would there be a smaller-scale article? Not sure. Results May Vary (talk) 18:23, April 15, 2022 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.