MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63

Reconsider Nintendo's website filenames being used as a source
See this proposal for full context. Nintendo is sadly known to make mistakes in their filenames found on their websites (especially Play Nintendo). I think we can all agree there is zero reason to believe these files should have the same priority as number 4 in the acceptable sources for naming policy, but I also believe we shouldn't throw them away. If Nintendo blunders, we mention it. If this proposal passes, the following changes will be implemented:
 * 1) Nintendo's weird website filenames can be added either as trivia or in the same section as internal names, but these names shouldn't be anywhere near the first paragraph.
 * 2) In a potential unforeseen case where the website filename is the only name Nintendo provided, it will occupy the last 7th place in acceptable sources for naming (yes, even below the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia)

Redirects, on the other hand, is something I'm unsure about.

Proposer: Deadline: August 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support, use these names as redirects as well

 * 1) No harm done by using redirects, unless we want to obliterate these names off the wiki.
 * 2) Honestly, I still don't really get why the last proposal had so much vehement opposition just because "no one thinks these are the actual names". While that may be true, it's not like we're trying to make these the article titles - I'd obviously agree if that was the proposal, but I don't really see the harm of making a note of these on pages like we usually strive to do with all the official information we get. And I tend to support redirects for any names that have been officially used, since having more redirects is completely harmless - it's potentially helpful and never a hindrance, so again, I don't see a problem.
 * 3) If we can distinguish them from the games’ internal names, I think that these names can be a nice addition to the pages.
 * 4) Since the original option was, evidently, not in-line with what we were expecting, this one seems at least closer with our original intent. While these should be low-priority due to their obscure nature, but there's no harm in acknowledging that they exist in the first place.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.

Only cite them in case of no other source being available

 * 1) I don’t know how often this might happen, but if a filename is the only source we can work with for a given name, it shouldn’t be discounted.


 * 1) In the extremely unlikely case that the Nintendo website's data is the one, the only authority on a name, we may as well use it; otherwise, though, we can probably get away with discounting them. After all, these are names you'd only encounter by prodding at the site data.


 * 1) Per Koopa con Carne.

Oppose

 * 1) I actually think it's a good idea to cite web filenames as a recourse when absolutely nothing else comes in clutch, and I support mentioning the original filename of a wiki upload on its file page as it still defines the image in an official capacity, but the overall course of action proposed here still puts too much stock in this kind of material. Per some of the opposers to the previous proposal.

Comments
@Camwoodstock: Why is it that the obscurity of the names means we should ignore them? There's plenty of obscure content on the wiki, if anything it makes it more interesting to note them if it's obscure and not many people know about them. I don't understand why this proposal and the previous one were opposed with arguments along the lines of "too obscure, no one will see these" when that's never been a factor in anything else on the wiki to my knowledge. 05:31, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I was bewildered by this argument in the previous proposal too. It's nonsense, as the wiki already cites no shortage of material you'd normally have to look really deep into finding--and it seems weird to think a filename for an image that is readily available on Nintendo's website is somehow more obscure than a section in some '90s player's guide that is not sold anymore. However, I'll grant you that there are still some reasons to argue against the use of these filenames as sources of information, namely that those who help piece together promo material aren't obliged to demonstrate a staggering amount of professionality in the way they represent Mario concepts, and are not what you'd construe as an authority on such. 05:47, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * Indeed, hence why I don't think we should make these page titles or otherwise give them much credence, but noting them in trivia sections and the like seems like it should be fine to me as this is still official material, and it's certainly not like we usually tend to ignore promotional material like these websites. 06:21, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * We should probably clarify that we specifically mean our vote in the sense of, if there is zero other authority for a name, we can use it as a last resort, as it is still a valid name. Not "discard" it as in "it gets ignored outright the moment more authoritative name arrives", heavens no! But if a more definitive name exists, it should get priority over the website name for stuff like, y'know, article names, while the website name can remain as a redirect if it doesn't conflict with anything. Apologies for not being very clear. 22:39, August 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * So you agree with making redirects for the file names but are supporting the option to not create them? This just makes me more confused. The support options here aren't to regard these as a high source of authority, just to make them redirects and make a note of them on articles like we usually do with alternate names. 09:01, August 21, 2023 (EDT)
 * ...Okay, now we're confused, OOPS. We voted that because we thought the option was to consider those a valid name, but only as the second-to-lowest priority, literally only beating out the Encyclopedia; as better names from higher priority sources follow suit, we follow our standard protocol from there. If that's not what the option meant (and it's seeming like there is, indeed, a semantic difference, but we wanna make absolutely certain first that's the case!), we can change our vote as need be. And, once again, sorry for the confusion. 10:20, August 21, 2023 (EDT)
 * The option you voted for does not allow these files to be used as redirects, and the Enclyclopedia names would actually take priority over these weird web filenames. I should have made it clearer, but it's too late to edit the proposal now Axis (talk) 10:35, August 21, 2023 (EDT)
 * Our bad. Changin' our vote then! 10:40, August 21, 2023 (EDT)

Create an article for Tetris 99 and add it to the list of games
Tetris 99 currently does not have an article on this wiki, and I believe one should be created and the game should be added to the List of games, List of games by date, and List of games by genre articles. The game features many Super Mario- and Nintendo-themed elements, including from Luigi's Mansion 3, Paper Mario: The Origami King, Super Mario All-Stars, Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury, Mario Golf: Super Rush, WarioWare: Get It Together!, and Mario Party Superstars.

There is direct precedent for this in the form of Tetris DS. Like Tetris 99, Tetris DS features many Super Mario- and Nintendo-themed elements, and as a result, it has an article on this wiki and is included in the List of games, List of games by date, and List of games by genre articles. Examples of other games that feature Super Mario elements and thus have articles and are in the list of games articles include Minecraft, Rhythm Heaven Megamix, NES Remix, NES Remix 2 , Ultimate NES Remix, Nintendo Land, Captain Rainbow, SSX on Tour, and NBA Street V3.

Proposer: Deadline: August 26, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Given a large amount of Mario themes present in this game, there is enough content to justify creating a full article on this game.
 * 3) Tbh, we have an article for the Nintendo Badge Arcade even though it's a Nintendo game with the extent of Mario-related appearances being practically Mario-themed skins. This game appears to have more Mario-inspired content than that, and even comes with its own soundtrack (which is more than something like SSX on Tour and NBA Street V3). In context of the puzzle game (where there wouldn't be playable characters to begin with), I'd say the changes are enough to warrant an article, especially with the high amount of Mario content it did receive.
 * 4) Per Ray Trace.
 * 5) Per Ray Trace. After thinking about it this makes sense.
 * 6) Was formerly on the fence, but after thinking about it, this really isn't out of the ordinary at all. In the interest of narrowing down any specific details, though, if we've got stuff like Art Style: PiCTOBiTS (a game that mostly features cameos and a few Mario items as pivotal game mechanics), Densetsu no Stafy 3 (a game that is otherwise linked to a single series, but has a full Wario Land 4 crossover level), and especially the aforementioned article on standard Tetris and Nintendo Badge Arcade, both of which feature as primarily cameos but have notable things beyond that (The Tetris cameos had a hand in later titles like Tetris Attack, and y'know, Badge Arcade has the multi-time niche fandom anomaly that is Crazy Galaxy), Tetris 99 fits just right in as another one of those guest appearances we can give some level of coverage.

Oppose

 * 1) I think this is really stretching what can be considered a guest appearance. It doesn't have you playing as Mario characters like many of those examples do, and the Mario elements it features don't even directly affect gameplay or get interacted with, it's just skins based on other games that change visuals and sounds. I'd say it fits better on the list of references.
 * 2) per Hewer. I get that they are a lot of effort put in them, but it doesn't really modify the gameplay. Let, if the Tertis blocks were maybe replaced with Mario blocks, maybe? I mean, Just Dance was voted a guest appearance but that was because of the effort of the music videos. Even if I would agree with you, you don't try to explain how it is more than a skin. Because that's how it feels to me.

Comments
Please note that there was just a proposal that determined that the NES Tetris does not count as a full appearance or a guest appearance but rather a standard reference; it includes direct appearances of Mario, DK, Luigi, Bowser, and Peach outside of gameplay. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:02, August 19, 2023 (EDT)

I think Art Style: PiCTOBiTS should be a good comparison for games that don't have playable Mario characters or interactible Mario elements. If the answers to these questions are comparable to Art Style: PiCTOBiTS, then we could say it is a guest appearance. Also take a look at the proposal Doc von Schmeltwick linked, as what is and isn't a guest appearance is very much up for debate. What do you think? Axis (talk) 12:10, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * How many themes/levels are Mario themed?
 * Are there sounds/music borrowed from the Mario games?
 * And most importantly, how much of a game do these levels/objects/themes occupy compared to non-Mario elements?
 * For the last point, the Mario themes are only some in a plethora of themes based on Nintendo Switch games that are exclusively available in limited-time events, so I don't think it gets a great score there. And from what I can tell from its article (I haven't played the game), it seems like Pictobits does feature interactible Mario elements in the form of coins and POW Blocks. 12:37, August 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * As resident Pictobits-head, we can vouch that you do in fact use Mario items to an extent (you can collect coins very obviously modelled off of SMB1, and there's the POW block as a mechanic). So, there's definitely a stronger argument for Pictobits over Tetris 99, as you can directly interact with both of those (you spend coins, and as mentioned, the POW is an outright mechanic of the game). 22:37, August 20, 2023 (EDT)


 * In addition to the Super Mario elements already mentioned, Tetris 99 does actually feature Super Mario elements in gameplay. In the Super Mario Bros. level, Empty Blocks fill the bottom of the playing area when other players attack, and the player must destroy them with tetrominoes before they get too high. In the Donkey Kong level, the bottom fills with barrels. In the Super Mario All-Stars level, the bottom fills with Hard Blocks. In the Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury level, the bottom fills with brick blocks. In the WarioWare: Get It Together! level, the tetrominoes themselves have Wario, Ashley, Young Cricket, Kat, 9-Volt, 18-Volt, and Mona on them. Further, in the Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario All-Stars levels, the player can earn up to four Super Stars when they defeat other players. In the Donkey Kong level, you earn Hammers. In the Luigi's Mansion 3 level, you earn Polterpups. In the Paper Mario: The Origami King level, you earn coins. In the Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury level, you earn Cat Shines. In the WarioWare: Get It Together! level, you heard the Golden Coin from Wario Castle. In the Mario Party Superstars level, you earn Stars. Tetris 99 also features several arrangements of Super Mario musical themes not heard in any other game. The Super Mario Bros. level features original arrangements of the "Ground Theme", "Shiro BGM", and the "Course Clear" themes, and the Donkey Kong features original arrangements of the "Game Start", "25m" and the "Hammer" themes. Additionally, the Luigi's Mansion 3, Paper Mario: The Origami King, Super Mario All-Stars, Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury, Mario Golf: Super Rush!, Warioware: Get It Together!, and Mario Party Superstars levels feature several original musical themes from each of their respective games, as well as a wide variety of Super Mario sound effects. ToxicOJ (talk) 16:43, August 23, 2023 (EDT)

@Ray Trace: "In context of the puzzle game (where there wouldn't be playable characters to begin with)" I beg to differ. 18:55, August 23, 2023 (EDT)

Trim requirements for elemental creatures categories
This proposal follows from the responses on Talk:Koopa Troopa. Currently, the requirements for these categories are for the subject to either be composed of an element or use it in some way, and more recently the latter has led to some arbitrary cases that may only be exclusive to one or very few games, for example Bowser is under Category:Poisonous creatures for some of his attacks in the first two Paper Mario games causing Poison, and Koopa Troopa is now under Category:Water creatures for a water-based animation in Mario Power Tennis. This proposal aims to ditch the second half of the requirement of these categories; only if the subject is clearly composed of the subject may the category be used.

PROPOSAL EDIT: Addition of another option to keep the second half but tighten it. This will lead to usage of the categories if the subject isn't composed of the element but is still strongly associated with it such as Bowser remaining categorised under Fire creatures for his fire breath, and one-off RPG enemies that cause status effects with these elements such as Poison Pokey and Flamin' Stooge.

Proposer: Deadline: September 16, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Remove second half entirely

 * 1) Secondary choice
 * 2) Per proposal. Second choice.

Tighten the second half

 * 1) Primary choice
 * 2) Primary choice. Per proposal.
 * 3) Makes sense to us.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per myself, as I originally proposed it lol. Jokes aside I would prefer a more defined wording on where the line would be drawn.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) Honestly I'm iffy on the existence of these category at all since for example in the poisonous creatures category, they're either composed of creatures that can cause a poison status effect in RPGs or characters that can spit purple fluids. It spans across too many games of wildly different genres and idk, it just doesn't sound right at all when something like a Sniffle Thwomp occupies the same category as a Malboro.
 * 8) Categories should be reworked yeah. We should be calling several of the poisonous creatures "VENOMOUS". 😤

Do nothing

 * 1) - I find it rather difficult to be "clearly composed of [poison]," myself. That category is primarily for things that cause the poison status effect, are mentioned as being poisonous in their name or description, or are capable of spitting poison projectiles. The only examples I can really think of are Poison Bubble, maybe Mokura, and possibly some Pokémon. It also makes sense to have things that can cause the burn status to be listed as fire creatures, things that can freeze be listed as ice creatures, and so on and so forth.

Comments
If we go with simply tightening the second criteria, how would this affect Mini Goomba, which I brought up in the preceding discussion? Disregard this—I didn't notice the "one-off" in the proposal. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 18:12, September 9, 2023 (EDT)

What do you think should be defining terms for "tightening" the second half? Like, where would we draw the line? 19:10, September 9, 2023 (EDT)
 * Mostly if it's an element the subject never uses outside of the game or series where it does, as has been brought up with Bowser and Koopa Troopa. 19:14, September 9, 2023 (EDT)
 * If that's the case, then how would this option affect instances of a subject using an element across multiple series, but it's not a frequent attribute in their overall history? Case in point, Bowser being under Category:Electrical creatures for his usage of electricity in Hotel Mario, the opening of Super Mario Galaxy, and—although it's not mentioned on his character page (likely because it's via the Star Rod and not natural here)—Paper Mario. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 08:52, September 10, 2023 (EDT)

Delete the and  templates
It's been four months since My last proposal to create interwiki templates to various wikis (like NIWA) has been declined, and the and  templates are still there. In fact, the Super Mario Wiki does not need these. Like Steve said, when the prefixes work just fine. If you don't want to type things twice, just do either  or  ; the following will work: Mario for Wikipedia and Mario for Fandom. Just like that!

Proposer: Deadline: October 2, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal

Oppose

 * 1) Just because there is a relatively short alternative way, it doesn't take away from the fact that the template names are even shorter. Especially the Fandom one.
 * 2) Per Axis.
 * 3) *cough* *sigh* "There is no point in change for the sake of change."
 * 4) Per Axis. The template names are already as short as they can get short of full-on one-letter templates of borderline incoherence, and we probably don't need to lengthen these names arbitrarily if anyone editing these already understands WP is Wikipedia and Fandom is... well, Wikia/Fandom. Besides, it saves time in inserting these links and in some extreme cases (read: basically any scenario involving Fandom articles) can even shrink the overall page size--both of those are very good things to have on particularly large articles!
 * 5) Per all, these templates are some added convenience that have no reason to be removed, and having just two such templates that are commonly used and easy to remember is quite different to the labyrinth of abbreviations suggested in the previous proposal (not that I really feel very strongly either way about the inclusion of those other templates, I just don't see the need to remove the ones we already have).
 * 6) Per all. I don't really see the point of doing this.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) the amount of times ive used the wp template specifically is just too many times to even make a change like this be merely plausible.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all. In addition,   lengthens to   after the page is saved, creating more visual clutter when someone later edits the paragraph.
 * 11) Per all.

Comments
Axis@undefined Doesn't that logic mean the previous proposal should have passed, though? The templates proposed there had shorter parameters to type out, but people decided it was unnecesary. Shouldn't the same apply here? 13:31, September 25, 2023 (EDT)
 * Well, and  are very commonly used and quite nifty interwiki link templates (the former because, well, it's Wikipedia, and the latter because it's the largest and most well-known wikifarm that hosts thousands of wikis: linking to a specific wiki on Fandom is in itself a bit complicated as it is, too). That whole laundry list of the previous proposal, though... they're mostly there just because they're NIWA wikis. Some of them, such as for Zelda Wiki and Nookipedia, make sense to have a template for, since Super Mario has some connections with Legend of Zelda or Animal Crossing, and thus interwiki links would be commonly used, but then there's those for Wapopedia, Dragalia Lost Wiki, and Kovopedia, which represent series that barely have any connection to Mario, and so is barely linked by this wiki, so in turn the template would barely be used as well. Not to mention it's a lot of suggested shorthands to keep track of. In such a case, it would be easier to just type kovopedia:Magical Vacation whenever the one occasion we have to link to one of these games makes itself apparent  21:37, September 27, 2023 (EDT)

Do not rename articles until the relevant media has released
What this proposal aims to enforce is that if a subject is confirmed to have a new name in an upcoming game, the article must not be moved to the new name until the game has released. A prime example is the recent situation with Psychopath, which the Nintendo of America Twitter account referred to as "Thought Peek" for the remake and the article was immediately moved, but was since moved back to Psychopath as it might not be a proper confirmation of a new name, so this proposal should also prevent jumping the gun like this. The new name can still be mentioned in the article, but as stated must not be the article title until the game's release regardless of source.

EDIT, PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING: I get the feeling a lot of people are going to see this and completely misunderstand my motive here, I'm not saying that we should completely ignore or distrust all pre-release marketing, this proposal is solely aimed at returning subjects in games and if they are eligable for a rename, all I hope to accomplish is establishing a rule like with latest appearances and infobox images, in that the move doesn't happen until release. Obviously it would be impossible to apply this to new subjects and I would not try and halt the creation of those articles, any form of official pre-release marketing for those would be perfectly acceptable.

Proposer: Deadline: October 5, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal
 * 2) Not even just for games, content overall. Not to dig up old cases (and not to sound insensitive or anything), but we've | jumped the gun before on upcoming content so I support the idea of waiting until everything is fully known before making any moves.
 * 3) Per all. Doesn't seem like it could hurt, it's not like keeping the older name for a few months is the end of the world...  Or is it? 
 * 4) This seems sensible enough and consistent with how we generally handle upcoming media in other areas. Also saves us the headache of fixing things a second time if a pre-release name differs from the final product, which is always a possibility.
 * 5) Per all. Also there's always the chance of differences between American/British English localizations to take into account as well.
 * 6) This makes sense. As anyone acutely familiar with game development will tell you, things change mid-development, even (and in some cases especially) after promotional content says something about the game, all the time. And even if things don't change, all it takes is one blunder of cyclical reporting to accidentally trip people up anyways--remember God Slayer Bowser? Better safe and wait for the game to release than pre-empt it and get caught with our proverbial pants down if they walk back on it for whatever reason. And as Herobrine mentions, Nintendo has held different English translations between American English and British English for awhile now--who's to say this isn't another case of exactly that?
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Let's just say that I have unfortunate reason to believe that the retranslation situation is in a way more precarious position than all of us would've liked, but since I really should not get into that here/now/ever, I'll just say "I agree it's a good idea to treat everything as a placeholder until release" and leave it at that. (Also, I thought this was already standard practice.)
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) The Mario Party 5 bonus disc demo had early minigame names, ""Pale Piranha" was a last minute change, and so on, and so forth.
 * 12) Per all.
 * 13) Per all, and i just agree in general.
 * 14) Per all.
 * 15) Agreed, we can’t be sure of the final name until the actual release.

Oppose

 * 1) I can understand not immediately moving based on one social media post, but this easily has the potential to just seem silly if a rename is ever made very clear in pre-release material. This would also create a bit of an inconsistency with pre-release material being acceptable for the names of new subjects but not returning ones. This should probably be case-by-case in my opinion.
 * 2) I see no reason to distrust official social media and other pre-release marketing material in cases like these.
 * 3) Per PaperSplash's reason.

Comments
@PaperSplash I'm not saying to distrust official social media and pre-release marketing, I'm just saying to hold off from moving article titles until release like with latest appearances and infobox images. 15:56, September 28, 2023 (EDT)
 * Then why hold off? And apologies for misunderstanding, but I didn't know how else to interpret "it might not be a proper confirmation of a new name". It makes sense to wait until release for latest appearances, and while I don't necessarily agree with our current rule on infobox images I can see the reasoning for there, but I don't here. I don't think the DS Mario Circuit edit Tails777 cited is a good enough argument for a policy change across the board because Mario Kart Tour and the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass have a rather unique situation of having content released (and seemingly developed) concurrently. (Also said edit and the reason given for it in the edit summary feel rather contradictory to me...) This also isn't like God Slayer Bowser since we're dealing with an actual official source here. I'd also like to point out that Nintendo had largely put a stop to separate American English and British English localizations by the beginning of the Switch era; pretty much all the games that still have them separate are ports of games that already had them separate and are seemingly kept that way for consistency more than anything. (And even then, there have been exceptions like Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury where the original game's British English localization was discarded anyway.) The only comparable situation I can think of where the English localization ended up going back on a rename from pre-release to post-release is the Fishman ("Merman") spirit from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (which didn't end up affecting us either way since it's not a Mario character, but I'll still concede on this). That's what we should be looking at if anything. PaperSplash (talk) 22:18, September 28, 2023 (EDT)