Talk:Bull's-Eye Bill

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article?

I have no clue.


 * Then what shall we do?


 * I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill?

Fanmade?
How do you know if an image is fan made or not? Like the Missile Bill "artwork"? Technickal 19:01, 1 December 2011 (EST)

Well that was fan made for sure. I made it, I changed the Bullet Bills color to red, that is it. If they are from Fantendo they are fan made.

Truth
Has it ever actually been confirmed that the purple Bullet Bills in Super Mario Sunshine are in fact Missile Bills? The Nintendo Power guide just refers to them as "Bullet Bills". Vent (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

In Bowser's battle they follow you.

So Super Mario Sunshine's are Missile Bills? Then why are they also found in the Bullet Bill article?

I have no clue.


 * Then what shall we do?


 * I guess remove the information from Bullet Bill?

They follow you, but unless we have a source that specifically says that they're Missile Bills, then they're not Missile Bills. Vent (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2013 (EST)

Official or conjectural ?
How is this name conjectural ? It is said that the Prima guide gave them an official name. 11:08, 22 December 2012 (EST)


 * This page has, not .--NSMBWIIEJr.png BowserJunior RULES! 19:21, 1 January 2013 (EST)

FTR, that means that it has been given an official name in one appearance, but unnamed in another.

19:27, 1 January 2013 (EST)
 * Ok, I never understood this template until now. 07:09, 2 January 2013 (EST)

Missile Bill is the real name?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0Qjqt2K_MM At minute 1:30 is called Bull's Eye-Bill. Is the official name of Missile Bill or a different enemy?--Sonic98 (talk) 11:50, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Missile Bill is the offical name alright, if it wasn't this would have a conjectural template on it. That Youtuber probably just likes calling it that, like sometimes I call Koopa Troopas "Turtles". But if it's an official trailer ...--Sonic98 (talk) 13:05, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

It could be an updated name, but I'd say wait until the game is out and there's more info since it could change before release. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Rename to Bull's-Eye Bill
As stated in the article, a Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker trailer by Nintendo calls them "Bull's-Eye Bills". We also recently had a member of the Nintendo Treehouse (the ones in charge of localization) confirm it as the official name during the World Championships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88eKjjQbeg&t=17m45s

As far as I know, "Missile Bill" was only used in a Nintendo Power strategy guide ages ago. It's clear that the enemy has been renamed.

Proposer: Deadline: July 4, 2015, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Comments
Rule 15: "Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages." It's policy to move pages to their most recent name, so there's no need for this proposal.
 * Yeah, just rename it. - 12:28, 20 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Alright then. Aokage (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2015 (EDT)

About that Citation Needed for Superstar Saga...
Over at TCRF, they do indeed have info on a raised bill blaster, though rather than saying they fire Bull's-Eye Bills, they instead make the connection that it resembles a Bombshell Bill from Paper Mario. I couldn't find any information as to if there was any name for either the raised bill blaster or its projectiles, though, so whether or not it's a Bombshell or a Bull's-Eye Bill remains to be a mystery. At any rate, though, that's where I'm assuming the data came from.

I'm not quite sure what to do with the article, though. Since it could also potentially be a Bombshell Bill, I feel hesitant to use it as our source, especially since the source makes that comparison, not the Bull's-Eye Bill one. I would make a vote, but that feels a bit too arbitrary for something like this. What do you guys think?  ~Camwood777  (talk)  22:09, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It's golden and from a stronger cannon, I'd say Bombshell would make the most sense. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It seems to be graphical data, so I'd be wary of making a call - we don't call the unused yellow Cheep Cheeps from Super Mario Bros. 3 Eep Cheeps, after all. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * But see, official Eep Cheeps came after the ambiguous-Eep Cheep. And we do mention them. So it's a different situation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We could just say the unused Bullet Bills are unnamed but have a color similarity to Bombshell Bills, kind of like we already do with Eep Cheeps. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2017 (EDT)

Should we base ourselves on the actual Bull's Eye Bills introduced in New super Mario Bros. Wii for this page?
Right now, we are grouping together either enemies that are just red Bullet Bills (Mario Party 8) or that are stated to be Bullet Bills, but behave like Bull's Eye Bills (Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Advance 3). As far as the latter cases are concerned, both the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. (on page 99), the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Sunshine and even internal data confirm that those of Super Mario Sunshine are just Killers (as far as internal data is concerned, those used in pinnaBeach1 are called killer, those used in coronaBoss are grouped under bathtubkiller). Same for those of Super Mario Bros. 3, with both the Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario advance 4 as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. explicitly mentioning the U turn abilities of some Killers in the descriptions. The same case is seen in Super Mario Advance 3, where the Nintendo Official Guidebook again groups them under Killers using the name Red Killers for the ones capable of following Yoshi. While it's highly likely that the Search Killers were based on those red Killers able to follow the player, I wonder if we should be more strict and just leave a mention of their predecessors in the introduction, considering how the properly distinguished Search Killers appeared in New Super Mario Bros. Wii.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Then what should we do about Missile Bill (which technically wasn't necessarily "red" in its original appearance, just flashed to the player's palette, which in most cases would make it red)? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I agree to merge the Super Mario Bros 3 and Yoshi's Island to Bullet Bill. It is POSSIBLY a callback though for the New Super Mario Bros. Wii appearance. What should we do about Purple Bullet Bill? Should we merge it to Bullet Bill as well, or should it be on its own article? -- 13:03, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I don't agree at all. While Pia lists only from NSMBW-onwards, it is based entirely around names things had at the time of the respective game, and as you pointed out, Mister Wu, there is a high probability that the writer simply wasn't made aware of name changes when doing whatever they did for research. While they were considered a Troopa-like color/behavior difference back in the day, so was Circling Boo Buddies, which Mario Maker has made objectively distinct name-wise, and it's certainly the same entity as the previously non-distinguished-in-Japanese thing. If anything, this leads more credence to the idea of merging Boss Bass with Cheep Chomp. Using guidebooks (and especially internal data) from before they were officially split to "prove" that they're the same as Bullet Bills is full of fallacy, as the name "Search Killer" and Japanese distinction didn't exist yet, which has no bearing on whether it does now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:06, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Disagree with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp. -- 13:10, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Doesn't really matter here on how well that part's agreed with, that's the least important part of that comment. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2019 (EST)

"Early Japanese sources treated them as a simple color and behavioral variation of the generic Bullet Bill, akin to green and red Koopa Troopas, but began treating them as a fully-separate entity in New Super Mario Bros. Wii." Well, that's confusing and unhelpful. Looking at the merge/split templates on the the page and what info we have, I'm really not sure. We have Red and Green Koopa Troopas merged, yes, because they share the same name; though Brawl named them differently, Smash 4 gives them the color identifier. Maybe we should do that, give "Bullet Bill (red)" a page? 13:33, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * How is that confusing? They called them Killers back then. Now they don't. They're a flashy chasy Bullet Bill, and as such this seems similar to the previous idea of renaming the monkey Grinder to "Ukiki (Yoshi's Island series)" a page before it was decided to just merge it to Ukiki, as Nintendo seemed to have done the same. Anyways, following this "using old sources to decide how we do articles for subjects that have been repurposed in some manner that conflicts with said old sources" logic, we might as well create individual articles for the "classic" Koopalings since they were Bowser's kids back then, and that's different from Nintendo's current interpretation too. But that idea is picky and rather asinine, isn't it? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:42, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Indeed, it wouldn't solve anything and just cause more confusion than there already is. 13:56, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I'd like to remind you that hyperbole arguments make a certain impact, but are rather unhelpful for conversation. In this specific case, you chose a poor example, as each Koopaling had retained their Japanese name in New Super Mario Bros. Wii, this actually being one of the very few untouched aspects of them. It's basically the opposite case as the one we are seeing dealing with here, where we are assuming that subjects with different Japanese names are the same.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * It was not intended as hyperbole, actually, as I was not referring to the specific set of changes, but more the general idea. Anyways, didn't Japanese SMM call Circling Boo Buddies "Teresa Clock" or something after they had previously just been identified as "Teresa?" Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:50, 7 March 2019 (EST)

Since I was asked, this is what I further found about the Bullet Bills in Super Mario Bros. 3 and about the Missile Bills:
 * The Super Mario Zen Hyakka, a Shogakukan book written in collaboartion with Nintendo, in the Super Mario Bros. 3 section, on page 192, mentioned the Ōfuku Killer(「往復キラー」, Round Trip Killer) in the bio of the Killer
 * The Perfect Ban: Mario Character Daijiten on page 63 mentioned the ōfuku type in the bio of the Killer
 * The Nintendo Official Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (in my case the 25th Anniversary of Super Mario Bros. version, but it's a reprint of the original one) on page 194 has a brief description of the Killer that, as usual for Nintendo Official Guidebooks, stresses their ability to cahnge trajectory in a few cases
 * The Nintendo Power Strategy Guide of Super Mario bros. 3 introduces the Missile Bills stating Bullet Bills with a red hue will travel back and forth in search of their target
 * The Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. Wii names the Search Killer Missile Bill in the Basics/Pipe Cloggers section
 * Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker gives a new English name to the Search Killer: ''Bull's Eye Bill', the current name of the page

At this point it's clear that there is conflicting infromation between Japanese names and North American localization, in a situation similar to that had with Big Bertha and Boss Bass, which are split in the Nintendo Power guide but not in the Japanese Nintendo Official Guidebooks, have one of the names repurposed for an enemy that has a different Japanese name, the latter of which eventually ends up having its own English name. I'd like to remind that keeping the enemies that are not named Search Killer in the History section has a precise implication: that those enemies are just Bull's Eye Bills that weren't yet renamed. This is why I want to reexamine the evidence, in particular because even if we ignore the different name given in the early character books, Nintendo in Japan rather considered the behavior of some Killers of Super Mario Bros. 3 that of changing direction or making a U-turn (or a round trip). Furthermore, the purple Bullet Bills of Super Mario Sunshine have homing capabilities, but not only the name, their appearance as well is different, with red not being among the colors of the Bullet Bills that follow Mario. In the case of Mario Party 8, the homing behavior reportedly isn't there, just the red color is that of Bull's Eye Bills. The one case that has similar behavior and appearance is that of Super Mario Advance 3, yet I wonder how much we are allowed to state that they are not-yet-renamed Bull's Eye Bills or rather the precursors on which the actual Bull's Eye Bills were based.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * I have no idea what the case for Mario Party 8 is, but I will point out that the homing capabilities of the purple Bullet Bill only differ from than of the SMB3 enemy in that they don't give up. That is to say, they still make U-turns. The whole thing seems less a replacement on the concept and more a refining of the concept to me, combined with greater technical capabilities they wanted to take advantage of, as the NES wouldn't have been capable of the current behavior (particularly on a graphical level, as sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the SNES, and mass sprite rotation wasn't a thing they could do until the Super FX chip), and the old "round-trip" name not being accurate for an that homes more freely. Anyways, if we are going to split Missile and Bull's-Eye Bill, I still feel that the purple Bullet Bill should go with the Missile Bill and not Bullet Bill, as they act far more similar than most Sunshine enemies and have a red flash, just limited to the nose. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2019 (EST)
 * Ahem... -- 02:27, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Except that unlike that, the so-called "originals" never showed up again, unless you want to say that "Search Killer" was the SMW2 unused asset but not the SMB3 enemy. Even the SMM ones act like the NSMBW ones, with the SMB3-style SMM ones using colors near-identical to the color they flash to in small or super Mario is being played as in SMB3. Additionally, SMG Bats didn't even look like Swoops, while in this case, the only off-model appearance is from the game where every previously-used enemy was majorly off-model. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:25, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * I meant to point out your comment in response to Camwood777's vote. -- 04:52, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * That was a year and a half ago. Anyways, the blinky red nose seems indicative of the blinky sometimes-red appearance in SMB3, and I had forgotten then just how similar their U-turning thing was. I suppose there's one other difference, in that the SMS ones explode rather spectacularly, but all Bills do in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:01, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * One can change their mind in the meantime. This is a complex matter, and since we don't work at Nintendo, we can't have a definitive answer on whether a renaming happened or not. I'm presently worried by the status of the page as it seems to put together enemies based on not so clear criteria (that's mainly due to Mario Party 8 that uses an appearance-based criterion, if someone has that game that part should be reviewed as soon as possible). I also think we're making bold claims right now in the History section, although we can't really fault anyone since it was the Prima guide that made that connection first and foremost. This is why I'm asking to see what we can do. Merging with the Bullet Bills page is a solution, I'm wondering if we can alter the page structure so that the inclusion of the previous Mario-seeking Bullet Bills is less of a claim that they are the same thing and more of an observation of how they are the likely predecessors of the Bull's Eye Bill(e.g. by adding a Possible/Likely predecessors section).--Mister Wu (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * The internal names don't always add up - for example, the Bullet Bill in Super Mario Galaxy is "HomingKiller" internally, which more accurately describes the soon-to-be-named Bull's-Eye Bill. Also, we have another example of a Bullet Bill type previously being grouped together in Japanese sources but clearly separated more recently (Bouncing Bullet Bill). Though the Zen Hyakka information is new, so that could change things. If we do split Missle Bill and Bull's-Eye Bill, I also suggest leaving the red Bullet Bill from Yoshi's Island as Bull's-Eye Bill, as they are functionally the same thing and those book sources don't cover that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:32, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * I personally disagree with that. I'd rather organize these Bullet Bill variants by using case-by-case analysis for each game and, based on that, decide if the variants will be merged with Bullet Bill article or split into their own. To explain how I'd intend this, Missle Bill would be either covered in Bullet Bill's SMB3 section or given its own article, Purple Bullet Bill would be covered in Sunshine section, and the red Bullet Bill in SMA3 section while the similarity to Bull's-Eye Bill would be noted. SmokedChili (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Why splitting the SMB3 information into its own article if it is considered to be the same thing? -- 09:13, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * We've one reference now, Super Mario Zen Hyakka, that gives the Super Mario Bros. 3 type a unique name. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Do they disappear after a couple of seconds in YWW? -- 10:00, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Judging from YouTube, no they don't, but this is again behavior refining, given the previous Yoshi appearance was in the super-secret last level of a GBA remake. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2019 (EST)
 * Is Ofuku intended to be taken as a proper noun or not? -- 06:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)
 * Yes, Ōfuku Killer is in quotations, and the quote states that's what it's called. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:33, 8 March 2019 (EST)

I just checked YouTube, and in the MP8 minigame, all the Bills home in to a very limited extent. Moreso than Brawl, less so than most other "homing" depictions. It's more of a very wide curve. EDIT: It's most comparable to the ones in Super Mario 64, in that it's on a single plane like the "u-turn" ones, but without the u-turn itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, 8 March 2019 (EST)

It is additionally noteworthy, and related to the "Homing Killer" internal name above, that in Galaxy 2, some Bullet Bills home like in the first Galaxy, while others don't, and the only visual difference is that the homing ones briefly flash red eyes when they catch sight of the player. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * Furthermore, it is worth noting that in some games, Bull's-Eye Bills act similar to the SM64 enemy, and that the Cat Bullet Bill (which dos so as well) is identified as a Search Killer internally (itself likely a Goropu-Indy situation). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:19, 10 March 2019 (EST)

A timeline on platform Bill homing: -Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2019 (EST)
 * SMB3/SMA4-Missile Bill/"Ofuku Killer": Flashes different colors a la Invincible Mario (black, orange, and red in remakes), U-turns along a flat plane, gives up after a few turns
 * SMW2/SMA3-"Red Killer": Solid red, biting animation, follows along all planes of movement, shrinks into nothingness after a while, is unused in original
 * SM64/SM64DS-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, turns quickly and loosely on a flat plane
 * SMS-Purple Bullet Bill/"Killer": Purple with red blinky nose, U-turns along a flat plane, persistent
 * SMG-Bullet Bill/" Killer": Black with red eye flash upon detection, follows along all planes of movement upon detection
 * NSMBW-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Red with slight glow, follows along all planes of movement
 * SMG2-Bullet Bill/" Killer": Same as SMG
 * NSMBU-Missile Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBU
 * SM3DW-Cat Bullet Bill/"Neko Killer/Search Killer": Is a cat, follows quickly and semi-accurately along flat plane
 * CTTT-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along flat plane (apparently, I don't actually have this game)
 * SMM-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red and from red blaster, follows along all planes of movement, SMB3 style looks like the shade Missile Bill flashes to if Small or Super Mario.
 * YWW-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Red, follows along all planes of movement
 * SMR-Bull's-Eye Bill/"Search Killer": Same as NSMBW
 * SMO-Bullet Bill/"Killer": Black, follows slowly and accurately along flat plane