MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Merge Toad City with Toad's Turnpike. (Discuss) Deadline: June 9, 23:59 GMT.
 * Merge Green Power Star with Green Star (Super Mario 3D World) (Discuss) Deadline: June 14, 23:59 GMT.
 * 3D World Toad is or isn't Toad. (Discuss) Deadline: June 16, 23:59 GMT.
 * Mario's Tennis is or isn't part of the Mario Tennis series. (Discuss) Deadline: June 19, 23:59 GMT.
 * Merge Piranhacus Giganticus with Big Piranha Plant. (Discuss) Deadline: June 21, 23:59 GMT.

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Changes to the sub-series sections
On the Mario (series) page, we separate the Super Mario Land games into their own series. The third game might've been Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 in American, but originally in Japan, it is Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land. The Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, and even Mario Advance games are in their own sub-series sections, too. All the games with New in the title also either have Bowser Jr. or Bowser Jr. AND the Koopalings ever since the first New Super Mario game for the DS and Wii respectively. So obviously there are elements limited to the New Super Mario Bros. games only in-line with each-other, and it goes without saying the Super Mario Bros. games are different from the Super Mario games.

Right now what we're doing is grouping all the Super Mario Bros. games in with not only the New Super Mario Bros. games, but also all the Super Mario games that have only one or two entries in their respective series. So doesn't it make sense to bundle any Super Mario games separate from these two series, but with each-other until at least three games of a kind are released, as we have done with Super Mario Land?

This would change the current one list to three:

Super Mario Bros. series:
 * Super Mario Bros.
 * Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
 * Super Mario Bros. 3
 * Super Mario World

Super Mario series:
 * Super Mario Bros. 2
 * Super Mario 64
 * Super Mario Sunshine
 * Super Mario Galaxy
 * Super Mario Galaxy 2
 * Super Mario 3D Land
 * Super Mario 3D World

New Super Mario Bros. series:
 * New Super Mario Bros.
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii
 * New Super Mario Bros. 2
 * New Super Mario Bros. U

Super Mario World would go into the Super Mario Bros. series because of its original name and heavy ties to Super Mario Bros. 3. Super Mario Bros. 2 would go into the Super Mario series because of its original name and weak ties to Super Mario Bros. 3. While as far as the names go this is confusing at first look without prior knowledge, the name itself is not the reason for grouping these games, as again, is the case with Super Mario Land already. The Galaxy and 3D games would not get their own sub-series sections until there is a third game in either series respectively.

As it is now, this also causes for the history sections on character pages to have a broken flow. We initiated the sub-series in the first place so that for example Super Mario Sunshine wasn't paced in-between Mario Party 4 and Mario Golf Toadstool Tour, but now a game like this might be placed in-between Super Mario Bros. 3 and its sequel Super Mario World. It wouldn't actually but this is an example of how it can and does happen in the currently stuffed Super Mario sub-series containing all the games appropriately separated above.

Finally, my major reason for this proposal is because this is totally in line with what the wiki is already doing in regards to this subject, it's just no one ever bothered to consider the context of the games instead of what they're named. This new way only considers the names in a way that makes sense with the context in mind.

Since this might be confusing even with the three sections written out above, I'll reiterate: If you support, you're supporting the creation of a Super Mario Bros. sub-series, and a New Super Mario Bros. sub-series, which removes those respective games out of the current Super Mario sub-series into the two new sub-series respectively, leaving only the Super Mario games with one or two games at this time in the Super Mario sub-series.

Proposer: Deadline: Saturday, June 14, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) A definite yes though Super Mario Bros.2 USA was originally at one point supposed to be a Mario game till Nintendo converted the original prototype to DDP and the NSMB series is a rebirth of the old 2D genre.
 * 3) Completely agree.

Oppose

 * 1) - It's better to have one main series of platformers: it's simpler and more intuitive to keep all these games together, and it's better for organizing things besides History and Stats sections - namely nav templates, but also categories. Having everything together also keeps all the iconic platformers up top, rather than burying the NSMB games down below tonnes and tonnes of spinoffs. While there's clearly a New Super Mario Bros. sub-sub-series, getting that layered is not worth it for organizing pages, templates and categories, and separating them into a subseries apart from the grab-bag Super Mario games just begs the question of why not have Galaxy and 3D series, especially when the alternative is grouping them together in "series" made out of miscellaneous Super Mario games we couldn't fit into any other group, which looks horribly sloppy and is not something we want to do to the flagship games of the Mario franchise. The three games thing is arbitrary: just look at Luigi's Mansion, the baseball games, Strikes and more; no, it's far better to just not open that door at all and keep them all together. And as for leaving Super Mario Bros. 2 out of the Super Mario Bros. subseries, that's just going to confuse people who reasonably trying that a subseries that name would carry all the games that share that naming scheme; the argument that the name has no effect on how we logically present out information is plain wrong. Besides, just because SMB2 started out as Doki Doki Panic doesn't make it any less of a Mario game now: Nintendo fully embraced everything it brought to the series (Bob-Ombs, Birdo, etc.), bundled it in Super Mario All-Stars alongside the original SMB:LL and the other two Super Mario Bros. games, and included it as part of the Super Mario History booklet released with SMAS Limited Edition for the Wii, making the overall Super Mario series canon, and something we must preserve. (And speaking of SMAS, where would this game even fit according to the proposed changes? And what of the Super Mario Advance ports? And I'm only guessing that all the random SMB rehashes would fit with those games.) Changing the organization of the games forming the backbone of the series and the wiki alike is not something to do lightly: countless pages will be affected by this proposal, and allowing it to pass would be a terrible mistake.
 * 2) Per Walkazo.
 * 3) Per Walkazo.
 * 4) That's a lot of writing. Per Walkazo. Yes, I did read it all.

Comments
Why is SMB2 in the 3D platformer section? - 18:30, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I mention the reason above: "Super Mario Bros. 2 would go into the Super Mario series because of its original name and weak ties to Super Mario Bros. 3." Additionally, Super Mario isn't serving as a 3D platformer section. It's serving as a section for Super Mario games that don't have more than two entries like Super Mario Land does. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2014 (EDT)

@Pwwnd123: Correct. Don't forget my mention of the Mario Advance games already being a sub-series, though, so this is in line with the wiki, I believe. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm sure that they called Super Mario Bros. 3 it's name because it was a sequel to Super Mario Bros. 2 which was a sequel to Super Mario Bros., so I don't really see why it's in a different category. - 19:17, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm positive that they called Super Mario Bros. 3 its name because they called Super Mario USA - Super Mario Bros. 2 in America for the sake of it selling better and the American team having nothing else yet to base why the two games weren't a part of the same series sub-types the wiki uses. I already went over this though. The change has greatly to do with the fact that right now the list goes by only the names of the games, which is what you're defending, when what this makes up for is the current lack of taking into consideration the games are not tied by name alone due to the regional differences pointed out. The context of Super Mario Bros. 2 has nothing to do with any of the following or preceding Super Mario Bros. games. That's why it's called Super Mario USA originally, and is very similar to the game it's made from. As I also already pointed out, names like this ruin the flow of the context of the order the current sub-series set-up causes on History sections, which again, we created sub-sections to fix the flow. Unless something genuinely confuses you, please try to actually read all what is described in the proposal before asking. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Further, if your defense for keeping Super Mario Bros. 2 in the Super Mario Bros. sub-series section is because Super Mario Bros. 3 has its name, you automatically contradict yourself in that by that logic Super Mario World should be in the new Super Mario Bros. sub-section as well, as the Japanese name is Super Mario World: Super Mario Bros. 4, which is named as being the fourth installment. Your contradiction is casued by the fact if you think Super Mario Bros. 2 belongs in the Super Mario Bros. section, you therefor suggest Super Mario World doesn't; which with what I just explains follows your reasoning as why it would. The only difference is Super Mario World actually is related to the other Super Mario Bros. games in more than name, which aaagain, is the whole point of why its in the proposed new sub-section and Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't. I think that should clear up the points you're bringing up more validly now. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:45, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * No no you're completely wrong with SMB2.Doki Doki Panic was created from the original SMB2 prototype as for a quick deal with Fuji TV however Doki Doki Panic was converted back to the originally intentionally planned Super Mario Bros.2.So in a nutshell,Super Mario Bros.2 was first created with the intentions as a Mario game but was turned in to Yume Kojou Doki Doki Panic and released as that first before being converted back to the originally intended Mario 2 and released in America as the game we know today and released in Japan as SMUSA.Besides,Nintendo decided to take the original SMB and make it harder for the Japanese audience and release that as the original SMB2 while the original SMB 2 prototype was being transformed into DDP.Hope this made a lot of sense. - Pwwnd123
 * I think you misunderstood what I said? Regardless of what Doki Doki Panic started out as, it was released years before Super Mario Bros. 2. And actually, in regards to why Super Mario Bros. 3 is called so in Japan despite Super Mario Bros. 2 in America, I realized it's actually called 3 because Japan considers Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels to be it's 2nd game. Still backs up my original point; funnily enough! UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 21:44, 7 June 2014 (EDT)

@Walkazo: "Having everything together also keeps all the iconic platformers up top, rather than burying the NSMB games down below tonnes and tonnes of spinoffs." But as the wiki states, there is no canon. And putting it before a spin-off game is a simple matter of making it that any platformers series section goes before a spin-offs.

"And as for leaving Super Mario Bros. 2 out of the Super Mario Bros. subseries, that's just going to confuse people who reasonably trying that a subseries that name would carry all the games that share that naming scheme; the argument that the name has no effect on how we logically present out information is plain wrong." It does have an effect, but this wiki also tends to take original Japanese context ahead of things that come after. The name does have an effect, it's just that this considers the original name and the context of the game.

"Besides, just because SMB2 started out as Doki Doki Panic doesn't make it any less of a Mario game now" Then why do we separate Super Mario Land?

"And speaking of SMAS, where would this game even fit according to the proposed changes?" It could go in the Super Mario Bros. sub-series section, considering it shares most ties with that. Super Mario 64 DS already goes after or with Super Mario 64 on history sections. This is along the same lines as a remake.

"And what of the Super Mario Advance ports?" They already have their own sub-section, which I mentioned.

"Changing the organization of the games forming the backbone of the series and the wiki alike is not something to do lightly" I know, but with all I pointed out, it merely goes in line with the way the sub-series already works, it just organizes it more appropriately. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I still stand by my proposal, but I figured I should bring some other points to you. Since you are against separating these three sections, are you then in the mindset that Super Mario Land games should be merged to it? Or how you mentioned the Super Mario Advance games, merging them to it? Heck, even the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi series? I know you can point out the differences, but I believe I pointed out that the series I'm suggesting to be separated are different in their own right. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * So how exactly do I contradict myself if I never agreed with this system in the first place? - 23:10, 7 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Organization =/= canon (it says as much in bold in Canonicity); most readers probably care more about Super Mario tiles than Mario Tennis or whatever, so it's easier for them if it's near the top; keeping everything together also makes it easier: that's the goal of the wiki - to be a reader-friendly database. The Japanese stuff doesn't actually overrule English: everything is equal, and when things conflict, we're supposed to use what makes the most sense and try to report all of the sides of the story objectively. For SMAS, I meant in Histories and with respect to the Super Mario games, not the overall "Mario (series)" page, since in practice, they work nothing like the other subseries you listed there (currently, since they're essentially ports, they're usually just listed with the parent game, which works fine imo), and your proposal didn't really address them or the random All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros.-type games, and thoroughness is very important with stuff like this. As for Super Mario Land, that was the center of a rather hairy proposal back in 2012. You can have fun reading all the big essays in the comments and on the forum posts linked to if you want to, but basically, the SMASLE booklet doesn't include them as part of the Super Mario series and doing what Nintendo does is better than making things up, and while SMB2 has been completely integrated into the Super Mario series, SML has not, at all: they're not comparable. -
 * As I said, and as that backs up what I said, you could simply make it so that the platforming games are listed before any sort've spin-off. Heck, you could even just make it so that they came before the already subbed-series like Mario & Luigi in case they didn't come out first. The order of that seems less important than how the current Super Mario grouping where most other games are just shoved in cause they're platformers or considered "main" in a canon grouping that doesn't exist. This better disregards a fan idea of canon and simply groups the games that are tied together in apparent contexts. If that's the reasoning you might as well just call it Mario platformer series. So if what a booklet is what this comes down to, did that group Super Mario Sunshine or Super Mario Galaxy or any of the New Super games with those other games? Whatever past-proposals there were, if you're going to argue that Super Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 64, even, go in the regular Super Mario series sections, so should a series like Super Mario Land, because with how I group it in the proposal, it's pointed out that those two new sections are justifiably different in terms of what follows what. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:33, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * And I didn't address a game like All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros. because as of now it wasn't listed in the Super Mario series section anyway, so whatever new section it may best apply to is simply where it would go, and would've obviously been addressed if the proposal was passed. I didn't group the games as they are currently, that's why I'm making this proposal in the first place. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Games are organized by release date since that's the most objective way to present information. The presence of a Super Mario series (which is canon, not fan theory, thanks to that booklet: one of the few times Nintendo's given us concrete organizational info to go off of besides names alone should not be ignored or diminished) allows us to keep later games up top without breaking from the release-date order, but to do so without the justification of a subseries would be nothing but value calls on our part, and we can't do that, because that is drifting into fanon territory. I.e. we don't put other platformers like Luigi's Mansion, SPP, WL or Yoshi's Island up top: they slot in where their release dates let them go. The booklet included SMB, SMB2, SMW, SMAS (wherein the SMB:LL info is covered), SM64, SMS, NSMB, SMG, NSMBWii, SMG2, SMB Deluxe, SMA, SMA2, SMA4, SM64DS, and Classic NES Series: SMB (it only goes up to 2010, hence nothing more recent); no SML, just the core Super Mario games and the remakes (besides the old, random, SMB rehashes like All Night Nippon, but we can include them because they are unarguably just alternate versions of the original game: it's not a value judgment or anything, it's bald fact). I gave reasons why SML shouldn't be part of the SM series: it's not in the booklet so Nintendo doesn't consider it part of the SM series, and there's no strong ties to the rest of the SM platformers so all that's linking it is the name and genre, and there's lots of completely unrelated "Super Mario" games (SMRPG, Super Mario Bros. & Friends: When I Grow Up, SMK, and lots of unrelated platformers (LM and whatnot). There's more reasons in the old proposal: I'm not getting into them now because I have very little time and it's very muddled and it's tangential to the main problems with the proposed changes, which I already went through at length in my vote. -

Create mother articles for Mario Kart tires & gliders
Looking back at a nearly 2-month-old proposal by, I noticed that there's no mother articles for tires or gliders. Therefore, I propose that we create the said articles, so that they have a little info, as well as direct links and photos of the tire and glider customization from 7 and 8.

Proposer: Deadline: June 12, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Does this really warrant a proposal?
 * 4) I think it will be useful! Good idea!
 * 5) This is a great idea! I have been thinking about doing this for a while, but never got around to it, but now it is in a proposal, we can actually do it! It would also keep all the parts much more organized. Per proposal.
 * 6) We have kart articles, so we should have tire and glider articles.
 * 7) Ditto.

Comments
@Stonehill In your proposal, could you add creating a page entitled ? I think this would also help with your idea and it would keep all parts on one page. 13:47, 5 June 2014 (EDT)

What Ninelevendo said. For the most part, a proposal isn't necessary to create and article, just make it if you think you can pull it off. If it doesn't work out, people will step in and it'll be handled. -- Chris 17:10, 5 June 2014 (EDT)

@Mario7 The problem with this is, the wiki may have had such a combined page, but it was probably removed or split.  At last, the rock fell.

Oh well...At least it's a step in the right direction!!!  At last, the rock fell.


 * Actuallu, I think a page called "Kart Parts" would be better. - 17:05, 6 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Actually, I'm not so sure about making that page. It doesn't really stand out to me, and if you want to make a proposal about it, it's fine, but you'd have to wait a month.  At last, the rock fell.

Write quotes with ambiguity in a more formal manner
That is to say, for example, a quote written like this:

He told me to follow you around this place.

Is instead written like this:

'' [ Bowser ] told me to follow you around [ World 1 ]. (said to Mario)''

Proposer: Deadline: June 12, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Oppose

 * 1) Why would you change quotes to incorrect and confusing quotes?
 * 2) Nope, in this way quotes lose all their fashion! Completely supporting Ninelevendo!
 * 3) I see your point, and while it is more formal to do that in some instances, the way they are done now are considered correct under the right circumstances, which they are.
 * 4) Per myself in the comments, we'll be supplying false quotes if we follow this.
 * 5) - Best to just leave listed quotes exactly as they were in the source material, otherwise it makes the information less authentic and useful, even if the changes are marked with square brackets (which is already done when using quotes in articles to back up statements and whatnot).
 * 6) - Per all, our current method serves our needs better.
 * 7) That's not what the quote is, and... it's kinda strange, so Per everyone.
 * 8) There would be a policy against this already. Per Ninelevendo, Mario7, Yoshi876, Walkazo, and Koopakoolklub.
 * 9) The links, while sometimes kind of dumb, clarify who or what the speaker is referring to, so it's NOT ambiguous as it is claimed here. Altering quotes just makes it more confusing, not less.
 * 10) - We are here to quote everything as is and we think it is defying a rule that everything must be taken from the original content and it is incorrect. That just makes everything fabricated. Per everyone.

Comments
What is this trying to accomplish exactly? And since when do we write You? - 01:53, 5 June 2014 (EDT)

I need this explaining, because it looks like you're changing the example quote to something different, which means that it is no longer a quote from that game.

In general this would only be needed in cases where the subject isn't clear, but we generally don't use quotes like that where quotes are needed, in fact I can't think of any off the top of my head. Can you provide me with a link to any articles where this is going to make a difference? -- Chris 03:41, 5 June 2014 (EDT)


 * I knew this would happen. :P But anyway, here are some examples of what I'm talking about:  RickTommy (talk) 04:19, 5 June 2014 (EDT)
 * My issue is that looking at that, you have changed some of the comments by removing "he's" and replacing them with "Bowser" or whatever, thus changing the quote and making it incorrect.
 * The thing is, that's the formal way of writing quotes with ambiguity - by changing pronouns to the name of the character they are referring to, and putting them in square brackets. RickTommy (talk) 04:24, 5 June 2014 (EDT)
 * The thing is though, that is how the quote is said so if we transcribe it like your way we'll be supplying false quotes.
 * Not precisely. A quote is still fundamentally correct if all that is changed is a "btw, context" to the reader, court documents and reporting outlets use this method, as clarity is more important than keeping a few He's and She's. That said, I wanted an example because I didn't think we had many articles that used quotes that would need and our current method of just linking indicators off to relevant articles seems to be working fine with less visual clutter. -- [[Image:Shyghost.PNG]]Chris[[Image:Shyghost.PNG]] 17:05, 5 June 2014 (EDT)

@RickTommy I have another solution for you. Try taking cues around the links of the quotes. They should tell you which context is which. Stonehill (talk) 20:31, 5 June 2014 (EDT)

I guess we should reproduce the quote as much as possible.. In case of the undefined subjects, we have one of the two options: If we have an article on that subject, we can use pipe-linking to remove any doubts about who exactly is that subject? [e.g: Bowser : "I hate him very much."]. There, we kept the quote and identified the subject.. Otherwise, If we don't have the subject as an article (I cannot think of use of that here), we can add something about who the character is talking about [e.g: Guy1 : "If I didn't return by 11:00, he is going to kill me for sure." (About his father)] or if that is not acceptable, we can use something like that. (i.e: "If I didn't return by 11:00, he is going to kill me for sure.) In all cases, we don't have any reason to change the quote.-- 07:27, 6 June 2014 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.