MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

Add "Template:Title source"
I propose that the template needs added.

 The title of this article is official, but it needs a citation. You can help by adding a reference to the article.

Proposer: Deadline: November 27, 2017, 21:28 GMT

Support

 * 1) per proposal

Oppose

 * 1) Per Alex95. The template you're trying to propose is almost identical, if not, the same thing as the ref needed template.
 * 2) We already have a template for this purpose.  Per all.
 * 3) I'm not even sure this proposal is valid, since it's just the exact same thing as  Per all.
 * 4) Per all. I don't see a point in creating a new template when a template for a very similar purpose already exists.
 * 5) What everyone else said. Also, "The title of this article is official, but it needs a citation." How do we know it's official? If it's unsourced, it could be conjecture for all we know.
 * 6) The only solution to this "problem" is for you to not knee-jerk change "ref needed" templates into "conjecture" templates.
 * 7) We've already got a template for it, we don't need another, per all.
 * 8) Per all
 * 9) Why? No reason stated. Just create for no good reason. Per.
 * 10) This is redundant with . I seriously could not have made myself any clearer.
 * 1) This is redundant with . I seriously could not have made myself any clearer.

Comments
@7feetunder Sometimes names come from obscure portions of games that some people have seen but others haven't....see whenever Octopus (Super Mario Galaxy) gets a ref needed tag despite the name appearing in the game itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2017 (EST)
 * That's just one possible scenario. The suggested template text is assuming that every unsourced name is official. An unsourced name could easily be something someone made up, like Wario Punch. 20:50, 20 November 2017 (EST)

I copied the code for the template here. - 17:08, 26 November 2017 (EST)

A section for passed proposals
There are 15 proposals marked with "gray"/"grey" in the proposal archives. These are proposals that have passed, but whose changes have yet to be implemented yet. A few of these legitimately go back years, and yet they still remain grey. While the onus is on the proposer to make the necessary changes, there are any number of valid reasons for them not doing it yet. Regardless, the end result is that there are a bunch of changes that should be done. However, it's hard to find them when they're all buried in the archives without any easy-to-notice markers, and even if you occasionally go through the archives to find them, you'll come across some that you simply don't know enough about to properly implement. With that in mind, I propose a simple solution to this: on the main proposal page, create a section that lists every proposal that has yet to be passed. Each entry would provide a link to the original proposal, essentially the same as what we do with passed talk page proposals. On that note, I also propose to move any passed talk page proposals from the "List of talk page proposals" section to this new section to make things consistent and because frankly, it's ugly to have passed proposals mixed with proposals that are still running. The entries may also list the dates that the proposals passed (older proposals should probably take more priority) and the original proposers (to allow for quick communication with them if needed), but that can be discussed later.

In short, I propose make a new section on the proposal page that lists every proposal that has passed, but has yet to be implemented.

Proposer: Deadline: December 2, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Sounds like a useful idea, per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) - Per proposal.
 * 8) Okay, this sounds like a good idea, so count me in. But how are we gonna put this into action?
 * 9) Why not? Per proposal.
 * 10) Per all

Comments
Would it be a good idea to include the proposer's name and the proposal's passed date? We don't include either of those with the current TPPs, so I'm on the fence about it. 15:28, 25 November 2017 (EST)
 * We should include those in the first place, so yes. 15:40, 25 November 2017 (EST)

I was honestly thinking about doing a proposal like this myself, but in broader terms. The way the archive is set up is jumbled, even though it's separated by year. I was thinking it could instead be separated by the proposal's outcome, i.e. all the passed are in one section, the failed in another, etc. That way it'd be easier to find the proposal you're looking for, rather than guess and checking through the numerous years. 15:58, 25 November 2017 (EST)
 * Personally, if I'm looking for a specific proposal, I'm doing so by topic (i.e. CTRL+F) with no idea whether it passed or failed, and I imagine that a lot of people use the archive without being completely aware of the proposal's outcome. Besides, how would you handle proposals that themselves failed, but whose changes were later put into effect (and vice-versa)? 16:11, 25 November 2017 (EST)
 * That would be the "etc." thing, every type of proposal would have its own section. But say you don't know if the proposal passed or failed, and you don't know the name of it nor when it ended. You just want to check to see if the proposal exists, to see if it's still in effect or if it needs to be tried again. imo, it'd be easier to sort through a section of similarly concluded proposals rather than a rainbow of randomness. They'd still be sorted by date within the section, however (oldest on top, newest on bottom). 16:43, 25 November 2017 (EST)
 * How are you searching for something if you don't even know its name? Heck, not even any keywords? 16:45, 25 November 2017 (EST)
 * Whoop, meant to delete that because it sounded stupid to me, too. Yeah, CTRL+F would work with keywords, but my color seems like a better assortment to me. I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference, but it'd be easier to look through. 16:48, 25 November 2017 (EST)

@Lcross: Literally in the proposal. 22:25, 25 November 2017 (EST)

Mario Kart series Truck articles
Following the recent creation of the Bus and Car (obstacle) articles, the next required article is the Truck article, however, after some discussion with, we are currently unsure how to go about covering it. While there are some Trucks which function similarly to Cars and Buses, simply causing the player to spin out, the returning Toad's Turnpike in Mario Kart 8 now includes two types of trucks which have different functions. One of these is the purple truck with a surfboard on the back, which players can use as a Ramp, and is noticeably absent in Battle Mode, and the other is the larger truck which also has a ramp on it, as well as a Dash Panel and a Glider Panel, again missing in battle mode. As Mushroom Car, Bomb-Car and Car all have different functions and don't share an article, I personally think that these should go the same way, however Mario jc has suggested that they should all be included in one option. There are three potential ways we go about covering this:
 * Option 1: Cover it all in one article. Make one article for all Trucks, and cover different types within each game's respective section, similar to the Mario Kart Wii section in the Car article.
 * Option 2: Create three different articles. Make separate articles for regular Trucks, Ramp Trucks and Glider Trucks (Though the article's titles may change).
 * Option 3: Create two separate articles. One for regular Trucks, and the other to cover both types of Ramp Truck (Again, the title may change), with differences described on the page.
 * Option 4: Do nothing. Self-explanatory, don't make any articles whatsoever.

Proposer: Deadline: December 3, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Option 2

 * 1) My preferred option, per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal (and we probably should give Glider Panel its own page).
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - Per all. (Why don't we have a Glider Panel page?)
 * 5) All three of these trucks serve different gameplay purposes, have a unique design (not merely just a texture difference) about them, and thus should get their own article.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all, including the "Glider Panel" article. Does that mean we should create a article for the "Antigravity Panel" as well?

Option 3

 * 1) I'm equally happy with this option too.
 * 2) Glider ramp doesn't have its own article, so I'm leaning here.

Comments
Glider ramp probably doesn't have its own article for the same reason that every behavior Cheep Cheep is capable of in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Yoshi's Island doesn't have an article each. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:17, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * False equivalence, especially considering how both appear in the same game under different names with different appearances. 17:19, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * I'm not saying I agree with that logic, I just don't particularly think it needs its own article, given it is seemingly covered both under ramp and glider. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:29, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * Doesn't that logic apply to everything? There's a certain amount of overlap between plenty of subjects. The point of giving it a unique article is that the writing can focus on it and add any needed detail. 17:39, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * What, in that they're blue and activate the glider? Do we need an article on the single blue mushroom trampoline that does the same thing in Mushroom Gorge? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * And yet Mushroom Car and Bomb-Car are fine with you? 17:44, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * One is derivative of a Bob-omb and the other's basically a vehicular ? Block in the shape of a mushroom, so yes. And before you ask, Wiggler Bus is different from other buses in its segmented and size-changing nature, making it more like a road-based train. But this seems more like splitting pink/blue Shy Guys or green Cheep Cheeps or the red bright magenta Paratroopas from Yoshi's Safari. Trucks with ramps on them are still trucks with ramps on them, particularly if the variation only appeared in one game. (And no, that gutter trash remake doesn't count as separate.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:50, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * Personally, I'm all for a Glider Ramp article- I often try to link to one, and I think it really should be separated from the Dash Panel article- it doesn't actually give a speed boost, unlike the other ones. The Mushroom can probably be included in that article- I thought it just had a Glide Ramp on, not that the Glider launched from bouncing on the Mushroom (I rarely take that route), but hey, you learn something new every day! Information in the article can include courses it appears on and their locations, design and minor design changes between games, the Mushroom, and other uses of the ramp (The truck we're trying to sort out now), etc. Time for another proposal! BBQ Turtle (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * But you see, then we're back to square one: including the information for the vaguely-derived thing on the same article, but this time, there's even more differences. Now tell me, do the Ramp Truck and Glider panel trucks have official names? ALso, what about the three-wheeled pickup trucks from Wuhu Resort? Trucks aren't all semi trucks, you know. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2017 (EST)

Removals
None at the moment.

Remove the Mario & Sonic header templates
There are seven templates that are used exclusively for events in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games: M&S-Athletics, M&S-Aquatics, M&S-Archery, M&S-Gymnastics, M&S-Rowing, M&S-Tennis, and M&S-Skeet. All of them are 100% pointless and should be dealt with. For starters, Fencing is completely missing from this deal for no explainable reason. If you say that's because Fencing only has one event tied to it, then automatically, the majority of the templates would also be deleted, since they too only cover a single event. Athletics, Aquatics, and Gymnastics are the only ones that cover multiple events, and even then, Gymnastics has a grand total of two. You don't need an entirely separate template for two articles. This is to say nothing of how none of the other games in the series have these templates or anything that resembles them, and really, they shouldn't. They only add an image to the top-right corner (which also creates ugly overlap with the FA template), which then links to the appropriate event category, and that's it. The categories are already on the pages in the first place, and the infoboxes already mention what kind of event it is. There is nothing to be gained from these templates, especially when they cover so few pages.

The most obvious solution (and most preferable, to me) would be to simply remove them, and have our readers actually look at the article for information rather than a small image in an obtuse location. While it would be possible to merge the templates into one (somewhat similar to Template:Button), which would solve the problem of having a bunch of scattered templates covering so few pages, they would still be wholly redundant and pointless. If someone thinks that the images are crucial to the articles, then they can be worked into the infoboxes, but otherwise, they're just wastes of space.

Proposer: Deadline: November 26, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) - Never once had a reason to use them. Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal, as well as my exchange with Time Turner in the comments section.
 * 5) Per proposal.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) - Per proposal. For the record, I do recommend the images being integrated into the article, possibly in the infobox.
 * 8) They've never appeared in the series in the same form again and they do look quite a mess, per all.
 * 9) Per all

Comments
Shouldn't this be a multi-option proposal, since you mentioned maybe working the templates into the infoboxes? 12:57, 19 November 2017 (EST)
 * I mentioned including the images into the infobox. I don't see why we can't both do that and delete the templates. 13:07, 19 November 2017 (EST)
 * Maybe someone else can :T Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:45, 19 November 2017 (EST)

Overlapping abbreviations in navigation templates
In the previous proposal about navigation templates, I noticed Template:G&Wario and how its name is totally inconsistent with every other name. It was presumably named that because "Template:G&W" could be confused with Template:Game & Watch, but that's not how we resolve overlaps. For example, since "SMS" could refer to either Super Mario Sunshine or Super Mario Strikers, their corresponding templates are written out in full, as Template:Super Mario Sunshine and Template:Super Mario Strikers. There are very few examples of this on the wiki, but in almost every case besides G&W, each name is written in full (the other exception being Template:WWS). With that in mind, "G&Wario" should be moved to Game & Wario to resolve the inconsistency.

However, a while back (in another proposal that involved standardizing names), I actually suggested doing what G&Wario's doing now, with the last word being written in full while the rest of the name is abbreviated. It was shot down in a later discussion by an admin, but now that we have an inconsistency to resolve, I thought that it would be worth bringing it up again. Using the half-abbreviated approach saves on space while still preventing confusion, but at the same time, it's kind of unwieldy and isn't particularly intuitive. With all of this in mind, there are three options: move G&Wario and the other exceptions (WW and WWS) to follow the other templates' examples (option 1), move the other templates to follow G&Wario's example (option 2), and do nothing (option 3). We definitely shouldn't do nothing, since that would leave us with an inconsistency for no good reason, but beyond that, the other options are open for all.

Proposer: Deadline: November 27, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Only move the exceptions

 * 1) - Per proposal. This should set a standard as well, with any templates being similarly abbreviated being moved to the games' full name.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Per all.  Obviously this is the better option.
 * 6) At this point, it's better to give the full names rather than an half-abbreviated name that isn't anyway as short as a fully abbreviated name and inevitably adds some arbitrariness in how this should be handled.
 * 7) Seems like the best way to go around this, per all.
 * 8) Per all

Comments
Affected templates:
 * Template:Game & Watch
 * Template:G&Wario
 * Template:Mario Sports Superstars
 * Template:Mario Super Sluggers
 * Template:Super Mario Sunshine
 * Template:Super Mario Strikers
 * Template:WarioWare: Touched!
 * Template:WarioWare: Twisted!
 * Template:WWS
 * Template:WW
 * Template:Yoshi's Safari
 * Template:Yoshi's Story

What about Template:WWS? That's for Wario's Woods, and it's also inconsistent with everything (Template:WW is for Wario World). 19:51, 19 November 2017 (EST)
 * I didn't even know about that one. Into the pile it goes! 19:55, 19 November 2017 (EST)

I want to vote option 1, but what about future similarly abbreviated templates in the future? Should this set a standard of some kind? 22:54, 19 November 2017 (EST)
 * However this ends, it'll be a signal for future editors on what they should do, just like my previous templates about colons and ampersands. 22:58, 19 November 2017 (EST)

Option 1 still makes no mention of what to do with WW and WWS if it passes. 23:45, 19 November 2017 (EST)
 * Ah. Right. Because I wrote the proposal when I thought that G&Wario was the only exception. One moment, please... 23:47, 19 November 2017 (EST)

@Time Turner: You forgot to vote on your own proposal. - 09:42, 23 November 2017 (EST)
 * This was intentional. 00:06, 25 November 2017 (EST)

Delete certain numbered Mario Kart redirects
Looks like someone went a little redirect-happy since the release of Mario Kart 7. There are several numbered Mario Kart redirects that just don't seem necessary. I get the purpose of them: since MK7 means Mario Kart 7, then MK1 should mean Super Mario Kart, right? Since any Mario Kart title prior to Mario Kart 7 don't actually have a number in their title (other than Mario Kart 64, but that was a system number), these redirects are pointless. The MK64, MK7, MK8, and MK8DX redirects will remain because they do have a number in their title, but everything else should go.


 * Affected redirects
 * MK1 (Super Mario Kart)
 * Mario Kart 1
 * MK2 (Mario Kart 64)
 * Mario Kart 2
 * MK3 (Mario Kart: Super Circuit)
 * Mario Kart 3
 * MK4 (Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)
 * Mario Kart 4
 * MK5 (Mario Kart DS)
 * Mario Kart 5
 * MK6 (Mario Kart Wii)
 * Mario Kart 6

Proposer: Deadline: November 30th, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - Per me.
 * 2) I don't think I've seen anyone actually refer to these Mario Kart titles as their numbered variations, like ever. No one ever calls Mario Kart Wii "Mario Kart 6", they call it "Mario Kart Wii", because it's far easier for our average player to remember the system it is on rather than the order the Mario Kart games were released on (I'll guess the order Mario Kart: Super Circuit is on, is it the third one or the fourth one?). On this case, knowing the exact order of the Mario Kart title means that you should already have prior information of Mario titles here and thus, you don't need the redirect. These redirects are pointless and I think they should be deleted. On the flipside, we don't call Windows versions prior to 7 like, Windows XP having a Windows 6 redirect or anything, and this shouldn't apply here.
 * 3) Per Baby Luigi. Nobody thinks of the non-numbered Mario Kart games by what number installment they are. If people don't know the actual title, then they are going to remember the game by what system it was for, since none of the games were numbered prior to 7, each system only has one Mario Kart game, several of them are even named after the system, and returning tracks are labeled by system in later games. There is absolutely no reason to expect a newcomer or outsider to be familiar first and foremost with what order the games came in, aside from the ones that are actually numbered.
 * 4) I strongly agree with Baby Luigi's reasoning. No Mario Kart games until 7 were numbered, except 64, but still it refers to the Nintendo 64, not the 64th game in the series. Also kind of agree with 7feetunder's system remark in the vote above mine. In other words, per all.
 * 5) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 6) Even if there was a case where someone remembered the installment number of a game but not the actual name, it shouldn't be too hard to go to Mario Kart (series) and figure it out themselves. Well, there goes the only oppose I had...
 * 7) I get the numbers of them muddled up sometimes, and if people are unfamiliar with the series they are unlikely to know many of the numbers except for the blatantly obvious ones. Per all.
 * 8) I never really thought about it this way, but I did like to think of titles like Mario Kart DS as Mario Kart 5, and Mario Kart Wii as Mario Kart 6. However, I got to agree with Baby Luigi's reasoning here; it only makes sense that we would recognize games by their system and not by the order that they were released.
 * 9) Per all, especially Baby Luigi.
 * 10) Per all

Oppose

 * 1) To be honest, I only remember Mario Kart DS as the fifth game in the series and not by it's actual title. It's situational, but I do think that these redirects have value.
 * 2) per Time Turner.
 * 3) Since Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 are official names and, keep the unofficial names as redirects.
 * 4) Per all. Saying "nobody" thinks of them in that manner is like saying "nobody" liked Mario Kart 8 original. It's just not true, and not anyone's position to say.
 * 5) Sorry Alex95, but I can't support. Reason? Per all.
 * 6) I know it's a bit late to switch sides, but I've been thinking about this a long time.  According to Redirects, "If there's even a small chance that a redirect will help someone, it's not useless."  And while there may only be one person in the world who calls them that, that's more then zero; hence, they're not useless.  Per all.
 * 7) If someone doesn't know what the 3rd Mario Kart is, for example, he will type Mario Kart 3 and fall on the page of the 3rd Mario Kart so we should keep this.

Comments
@Time Turner: You used the wrong word in your vote. It's supposed to be "its", not "it's". "It's" means "it is", while "its" means "of it". - 13:36, 23 November 2017 (EST)
 * ಠ_ಠ -- 14:08, 23 November 2017 (EST)
 * Its very unfortunate that you might effect that comment (yeah alex95 it's "affected" redirects not "effected"). 15:29, 23 November 2017 (EST)
 * Fixed. 15:33, 23 November 2017 (EST)

@Doc von Schmeltwick: I stand fairly strong by my statement that because the extremely low amount of people who do use it, to the point it may as well be nonexistent, we may as well create redirects for misspellings of Mario games instead, as they'll be more useful for our readers than these redirects, which has never ever been officially coined by Nintendo, not in their games themselves, and we don't create redirect articles for Super Smash Bros. 1, 2, and 3 either (I just found out that we DID create redirects for Smash Bros. articles and they SHOULD get deleted as well), despite having redirects for Smash 4. Searching "Mario Kart 3" on DuckDuckGo has led to only one accurate result and that's from Wikipedia, who has also created a redirect page that I don't agree with either. In Google search, Mario Kart: Super Circuit isn't listed at all, with the first result directly being our Mario Kart series article and the Mario Kart series article being on Wikipedia. The same story happens with the rest of the Mario Kart games. On the other hand, Smash 4/Super Smash Bros. 4 may not be the official title, but searching it on Google actually yields substantial results that users are looking for, because it's a term that's actually used, unlike Mario Kart 3. 14:25, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * clearly i'm just chopped liver 14:30, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * "If there's even a small chance that a redirect will help someone, it's not useless."-Redirects. Ah, I see, breaking the rules. Tsk tsk tsk. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * Yes, search traffic and results say that you are. 14:34, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * Rules are meant to be broken and honestly, with a vague interpretation like that, the policy page directly contradicts itself with restricting the creation redirects at the same time. 04:25, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * I don't see why we should knowingly and willingly make it harder for any number of people to access information, no matter how small that number may be. Yes, there's Mario Kart (series) as an alternative, but that's not immediately obvious, especially with new readers. 14:36, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * "Meant to be broken," eh? Well then you shouldn't have a problem with me spamming messages making fun of your choice in favorite character on your talk page, because surely the rules in our courtesy policy were meant to be broken! I'm saying that's a weak argument by all accounts. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:52, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * We already do this by not creating every single redirect that we could think of for a particular game simply because we might leave a minority of people who do refer to the game like that (Super Mario Wii redirects to Super Mario Galaxy, but Super Mario Wii U, Super Mario 3DS, Super Mario Bros. 3DS, Super Mario GameCube, Super Mario GCN, Super Mario 1, Super Mario 2 (which redirects to Super Mario Bros. 2 and not Super Mario Sunshine), and more examples not listed do not exist as redirects for a reason, it's because no one refers to the games like that, and frankly, Super Mario Wii should be deleted as well, because there are TWO Super Mario Wii games), and especially what we did with the Leet Hammer Bros. article. 14:44, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * We don't have those redirects not because nobody refers to them by those titles, but because there's potential confusion as to what the reader may be looking for. Redirects even mentions this: "First mario game" is an unnecessary redirect specifically because there are multiple games that could be considered the "first". These redirects do not have that issue, not when all of the games have a clear, sequential order. Also, pardon, but I don't understand your point about the Hammer Bros. 14:48, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * That still doesn't explain why we don't have redirects on Super Mario *system name*. Also, the Hammer Bros. example was just an example on why we don't have redirects for every potential combination of name, despite your argument being that there will always be a small amount of people who will use said name and that we will willingly leave them out when we delete redirects. 14:51, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * Um, Leet Hammer Bros. and Leet Hammer Bros are redirects. Even L33t Hammer Bro. Obviously this is a bad example. 14:54, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * The redirects for those Hammer Bros. were ridiculous, going beyond anything that a reader would reasonably search. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to remember a game by its numbered place in the series, again especially considering how the Mario Kart games have an obvious sequential order. Also, "Super Mario 3DS" could refer to New Super Mario Bros. 2 or Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS or Super Mario 3D Land, and so on and so forth. 14:56, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * How are they ridiculous? They outright call themselves "L33T HAMM3R BROZ." in game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:36, 26 November 2017 (EST)
 * Oh. I see. As for the reason why Super Mario Wii redirects to Super Mario Galaxy, it is because it is actually named that in a book, although it was saying the game was called that in South Korea, but it is that way nevertheless.It even goes as far as mentioning Super Mario Wii on the Super Mario World page. 15:10, 24 November 2017 (EST)

I tagged Super Mario Wii with. - 16:03, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * Why? 16:05, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * Because it is an "unnecessary and ambiguous redirect". No one refers to SMG like that, and it can also refer to NSMBW and SMG2. - 16:25, 24 November 2017 (EST)
 * Oops, didn't see Yoshi the SSM's comment. - 16:26, 24 November 2017 (EST)