Talk:Metal Mario

Metal Mario is an enemy in Dr. Mario 64, at least that's what it says in the article. Paper Jorge ( Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.&middot;Contributions&middot; ) 20:03, 11 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Good call. I totally forgot about Dr. Mario 64. He is the final boss of the Wario storyline. Thanks. =) -- Son of Suns

how can i unlock him in MG64??

Anyone Else Get the I still wanna kill myself thing on this page? It's weird! really! User:Mecha-Boss Unit

Is he unlockable in any other mario sports games? User:Gamer2.1

Doubt it, he's not exactly what I'd call famous

Split into "Metal Mario" into two articles
This article currently covers two subjects. While related, they are distinct enough to merit individual articles and should therefore be split. These two subjects are the metal form resulting from power-ups, and the character of Metal Mario introduced in the Super Smash Bros. series and seen in other media since. The inclusion of the two on the same article is misleading, and may confuse readers into thinking the Metal Mario character is playable in games that he is not.

Due to this, I suggest we split the two subjects into two different articles. One would describe the general metal form and all characters that have used it, while the other article would only cover Metal Mario as a character that has appeared as a distinct character in multiple media.

Proposer: Deadline: January 19th, 2010, 23:59 GMT

Split into separate "Metal Mario (form)" and "Metal Mario (character)" articles

 * 1) - Per proposal.
 * 2) - Makes sense. In addition it would be better to merge Metal Wario with Metal Form, instead of Metal Mario (provided the Proposal on Talk:Metal Wario passes, of course).
 * 3) - Per All, I think that the two articles must be separated and have information of their respective games (Ex: Anyone can be Metal in SSBB <.<)
 * 4) Per Redstar.
 * 5) - Per Redstar. Also, if there's a page for the Metal Mario character, Metal Luigi should keep his own character page, with any information pertaining to the form in general going into the Metal Mario form page.
 * 6) Per Redstar

Leave un-split

 * 1) I am Zero! Leave it as is, what is metal form is going to say, it probably be a small artile. Zero signing out.

Comments
I was actually probably going to revise this proposal. If the article was renamed "Metal Form", then all the other forms would have to be moved likewise (such as "Fire Form", "Frog Form", etc.) While that is beneficial because the alternate name tag is sort of an eye-sore, it serves its purpose and I'm not sure if anyone would support such a radical change. So, I was just going to try to merge Metal Wario here and add the alternate name tag, then try to split this off into "Metal Mario (character)". However, if you think the term "Form" would be more professional for these types of articles, feel free to say so and I can create a community proposal. Otherwise I'll just revise this proposal. Redstar 03:14, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * Hm... It's definitelly an issue that needs to be talked about... However, this decision should not be something solely based on my opinion, so hopefully we will get some other comments here. - 03:23, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * @Zero: Zero, please hold off on voting until we resolve the issue of merging Metal Wario here and whether we change the naming convention for such articles. In any case, the split-off article wouldn't be any shorter than any other form article. Redstar 01:10, 19 December 2009 (EST)

The proposal seemed to have been confusing, as well as rather bloated, so I re-wrote it to clarify what exactly the proposal is attempting to do. Anyone that has voted before, or is considering to vote, please re-read the initial proposal and re-consider your position if you so choose. Redstar 22:07, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Not really. The information would literally just be split in half. Putting the same information on both pages would be both redundant and off-topic, since information relating to each subject isn't compatible. Redstar 22:35, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Each article would have about the same amount of information, though composed of different material. This article, on the form, would start with "Metal Mario is a form first introduced in Super Mario 64..." while the other article would start with "Metal Mario is a character based on Mario first appearing in the game Super Smash Bros.." This article would cover all the instances when the player can turn Mario into Metal Mario as a form, while the other article would cover all instances where Metal Mario appeared as a distinct character rather than as a form. Here, let me show you where each of the sections would go:


 * 1) Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS --> form
 * 2) Mario Golf 64 --> character
 * 3) Dr. Mario 64 --> character
 * 4) Super Smash Bros. --> character
 * 5) Super Smash Bros. Melee --> character
 * 6) Super Smash Bros Brawl --> form
 * 7) Mario Party 7 --> form
 * 8) Mario Strikers Charged Football --> form

As you can see, a near equal amount of information would go on each article. As it stands now, the same article covers both the form and the character, which it simply should not do. If Mario can't turn into Metal Mario, but can face it as a distinct character, then the two shouldn't be considered the same. Redstar 17:11, 23 December 2009 (EST)
 * Fine, you got me. But what about Metal Luigi?
 * Metal Luigi the character should keep his own page, with the general Luigi-in-metal-form stuff going on the Metal Mario form page. Same deal with Metal Wario. Also, in Redstar's above list, SSB and SSBM should both contribute information to the "form" page in the same way that SSBB does (Metal Box usage). - 01:23, 24 December 2009 (EST)
 * Redstar's the one who wanted Metal Wario to be merged, so I want his opinion.
 * Though Metal Luigi as a character makes for a very short article due to one appearance, it would merit standing on its own for consistency. As for Metal Wario; I don't see any indication of it being anything other than just a form. Redstar 18:02, 24 December 2009 (EST)
 * Sorry, I had read that Metal Wario made a stand-alone appearance in a game somewhere, but upon further investigation I discovered that you're right: its just a form. - 00:33, 25 December 2009 (EST)
 * I would merge Metal Luigi with the Metal Mario character article, and another thing is; The Metal Luigi article has information about the character and the form(The Mario Party part, if you've read the article). What to do? --
 * The stuff about the generic form should be merged, but if the Metal Mario character gets a separate page, so should the Metal Luigi character. - 22:23, 16 January 2010 (EST)
 * I agree, but so far Metal Luigi has only be a distinct character (not a form of Luigi) in SSBM. It'll have for a short article. Redstar 13:47, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Should we re-merge these?
Since these were split, we have seen Tanooki Mario, Cat Peach, Gold Mario, and MANY more in MKT appear as "distinct" from their non-powerup form. Ergo, keeping these split seems silly now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Metal Mario's a special case, though, since he has the history to back up his appearances, like his appearance in the Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Dr. Mario 64, and Smash Bros. Honestly, if the aforementioned characters also started appearing regularly as their own thing in more than one game, then perhaps we could argue that but as of now, I think it's fine leaving it the way as it is. 15:08, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Gold Mario has been appearing frequently as a standalone entity, though. To say nothing of Dry Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Not really leaning one way or the other at the moment, but Metal Mario in this case could be compared to Dr. Mario - he's the only one split because he's the "original" with an extensive history and there's sufficient info to carry an article. -- 15:37, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Dr. Mario's always considered separate, though. (Also there's a metal Dr. Mario :P). Metal Mario in Smash 1 is absolutely a reference specifically to the SM64 form (note how Meta Crystal is based off the Cavern of the Metal Cap), so I'd consider it part of the design history of the concept as a whole, which is what we really should be shooting for. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:59, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * The comparison was in the sense that Dr. Mario is the only doctor form of anyone to get his own page because the others haven't been around nearly as long with a lot less to say about them. It's a similar situation with Metal Mario and the rest of the "forms as unique-ish entities". -- 18:28, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * "Metal Luigi" has an article, though, despite as-a-distinct-entity his only appearance is a tacked-on bit to SSBM's Adventure Mode Metal Mario fight after Luigi's unlocked (and thus, is not truly independent of Metal Mario). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:33, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Do the characters in Mario Kart Tour even have their own voice clips? Aside from the one-off appearances from Tanooki and Cat guys, do any other alt come with their own set of unique voice clips? Metal Mario has, except for Mario Tennis Open and Mario Sports Superstars, and sometimes, he's just mute altogether. 19:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Dr. Mario and Metal Mario have enough material as separate characters to stand on their own. Can't really say the same for Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart or Dr. Peach in Dr. Mario World. I'm not entirely sure on Metal Luigi. 19:25, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * You're still ignoring that Dr. Mario is still only split from basic Mario, while this is Metal Mario split from what is already Metal Mario. Please note the Dry Bowser comparison, who can be literally Bowser with flesh removed in one game and simply be "an old family friend" in another. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:34, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Even so, one Metal Mario is a power-up (that isn't even exclusive to Mario, but it's the same pattern as Tanooki Mario) and the other is a separate character from Mario. Both are going to have different attributes. They are two different things with the same name. 19:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * They're the same concept, which for a fictional limited-continuity franchise is how we should be grouping things. Again, see my description of the Dry Bowser situation: he can be both explicitly an alternate form of Bowser and explicitly a separate character from him, but we don't have "Dry Bowser (form)" split from "Dry Bowser (character)," nor should we. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:07, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * ...Where is it explained they are the same concept, when they act completely different? That is not how we group things. Should we merge Headbonk Goomba with Goomba? They both headbonk and are both Goombas, even though they look different, are named differently, and act differently due to the genre they are found in?
 * Dry Bowser has pretty much stood as a separate character all on his own, with the only time he appears as a form of Bowser being New Super Mario Bros. In every other instance (at least from my understanding of New Super Mario Bros. 2), he appears as his own character separate from Bowser. So a split wouldn't really make sense there. 21:30, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * 3DL, MP10, and BJJ, too. Also, your Goomba thing is flawed: the name here is the same, they look identical (and make the same "clang!" in SM64 and SSB iirc), and act the same in that they are "Mario but heavy." Also, the design histories affect each other, as I have pointed out. Headbonk Goomba was merely a cross-genre behavior callback that used the SMAS SMB castle palette as a subtle nod. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * I don't think Bowser actually turns into Dry Bowser in 3D Land, Dry Bowser just appears and nothing causes it iirc.
 * One other thing that is keeping me from agree with this merge is that Metal Mario as a character is specifically Metal Mario. No other character in the Mario games has had a metal counterpart aside from Pink Gold Peach, which is her own thing that... really came from nothing. For the power-up, anyone can become metal in the Mario Party and Super Smash Bros. series, and Wario can become metal in Super Mario 64 DS. Even if you ignore Super Smash Bros., Metal Mario as a character is capable of standing on his own. 22:00, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Even going off that, I'd say most of those cases can still be merged. The sole exception to that would be Metal Bowser, perhaps, but he could be made a footnote or split off outright (we have a "Super Bowser," after all...and the differing contexts between that and Super Mario aren't too far removed from this). Also, note how circumstance has caused some of our character and species articles (comparable situation IMO) to become merged, like Wiggler, Draggadon, and Dorrie. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * The article would just be a mess, you really want it to go back and forth between power-up and character? Also, why is Metal Bowser the outlier? That's just as relevant as Metal Zelda, unless there's a non-Smash form I don't know about. 22:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Because Metal Mario still exists in an identical capacity, ergo is the same situation for why Fire Mario covers Fire Rosalina? Metal Bowser is there because of a Mario Party cutscene thing. Also, again, I don't see this as much of a "character" as an "alternative appearance" of Mario, a la Baby Mario appearing alongside normal Mario. He gets his own article, but treating him as a "separate character" from Mario is silly. It's a concurrent alternative take, which is easily cohered with the powerup. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, April 5, 2020 (EDT)
 * Furthermore, the "character/power-up" split is completely arbitrary with Metal Mario's SSBM trophy, which doesn't bother distinguishing the two at least in English. SmokedChili (talk) 10:52, April 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * Indeed! This means the current setup is in open defiance of Nintendo's own take on the matter. Personally, I don't think that's the right thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:48, April 6, 2020 (EDT)