MarioWiki talk:Naming

"European"
"European sources usually means the United Kingdom, but can include other countries where games are officially released in the English language." I don't understand. European media always comes multilingual. N64 games had a language selection, and GameCube, DS and Wii games use the language that your console is set to. A Wii disk is the same for the entire PAL region (Europe/Australia), just the packaging and manual may be different. - 11:16, 10 March 2011 (EST)

Not necessarily. Older games may only feature the language of the country it is released in, but I see your point about more recent games. I will omit that line.-- 12:24, 10 March 2011 (EST)

The most-common-titles policy
I don't like the new policy, its feels like discrimination to me! Just because we got more American views doesn't mean they have more priority. Why isn't this proposed before use? 16:28, 28 May 2012 (EDT)


 * It's not discrimination: that's reading too much into it. (the founder and owner of the wiki) decided the old naming method, wherein everything was North American-based, was better than the First English Name policy. I'm not sure if he posted his reasoning publicly, but what he told the admins was that the change is meant to make the wiki easier to find and use for the largest amount of readers possible. Most people know the NA titles, and will be searching for them on Google/whatever, and if we don't use those titles, we lose hits, which is bad. The users and guests are also mostly North American, and seeing as any title we use is going to seem wrong to a portion of the community, might as well try to inconvenience the least amount of people. Also, unless you're familiar with the First English Name policy and the release dates, the old method could seem a tad inconsistent, whereas using only one region's names is about as uniform as you can get. -  20:12, 28 May 2012 (EDT)

So... that's it...
You are 'americanizing' even more this webpage... that's not cool.


 * Just look above and read the paragraph. GreenDisaster 11:41, 30 May 2012 (EDT)

If our demographics change, we will use different titles.

Welcome to Mario Wiki USA Edition
Well, what can be said? This is none other than 'americanizing' the site. That is basicly 'Discrimination'. The site may have more New World viewers but i'm sure the numbers dom't multiple theirselfs litke there is nothing like The USA viewers are 10x more than European/australian viewers. And being american site builds up misleadings like now more people will think that magikoopa and Kamek is same thing. And by searching "ghost ship" I can find the "gholish galeon" page easily, there is no need to make every article American! I think next poll should be: "Are you PAL, NTSC or OTHER?" -- 03:10, 25 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Look at the second section on this page. I also explained it here, and gave a response to your earlier comment here, as well. There is no point in belabouring the issue further, because this isn't an "America-vs-the-world" thing, and the policy will not be changed. - 19:58, 25 August 2012 (EDT)

Can an admin please
Change Mole Folk to Mole (Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)? -- 10:59, 5 August 2013 (EDT)
 * Thanks for pointing that out, but rather than merely updating the link, I replaced it with a better example altogether. - 16:20, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

Why is the Starshroom called a planet?
Honestly, it's a spaceship rather than a natural space object. I think it should be removed as an example from this page. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:42, 29 January 2014 (EDT)
 * Yes, that part of the policy should be updated, especially considering the recent re-evaluation of the term Mushroom World on the Wiki. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2014 (EDT)

Please change this sentence
"This type of name usually comes from beta elements or debugging." to "This type of name usually comes from unused data, developer interviews or development documents.". Because the current sentence is basically meaningless. --Hiccup (talk) 04:05, 25 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Thanks. --Hiccup (talk) 08:40, 25 June 2015 (EDT)

Name coverage
I am in the process of adding the French names of the locations of Paper Mario: Color Splash in the "Names in other languages" section. Some locations used different names for Europe and America (Mondo Woods = Forêt Wasabig (NOE) and Forêt Grochloro (NOA), but some locations used the same name, so I was wondering, if its the same name, how should we cover this? Should we add both, even if its the same and separate them by French (NOA) and French (NOE) or should we merge them together and just say "French". In my opinion, we should included both so this make it clear what is the name of both region.-- 19:47, 30 October 2016 (EDT)


 * Assuming you mean the template, you can use the Fre and FreM parameters if the name is identical in both regions, or FreE(M) and FreA(M) for European and Canadian French respectively.  21:34, 1 November 2016 (GMT)

Swoop
Since it is the current name, should the link to "Swooper" in the section about changing the names of articles be changed to "Swoop"? It seems odd to have an old name for a page in a section about changing the name of a page. -- 19:50, 12 February 2017 (EST)

Good catch. I've updated those titles.

20:00, 12 February 2017 (EST)

Error
It says "If an identifier is needed, the text in parenthesis is determined by:" in the identifier section. Parenthesis is singular, so it should be changed to "parentheses". PikaSamus (talk) 22:12, 18 April 2017 (EDT)

Source tiers 3 and 4
Looking through the list, the third source tier explicitly mentions Prima Game Guides from pre-2007, then afterwards makes no further mention of them. I realize that the fourth tier incorporates any other Nintendo-licensed media, which does include Prima Game Guides after 2007, but I feel as if it should be reworded to explicitly mention the guides. Source tier 3 only mentioning the guides pre-2007 can lead editors to believe that guides made after 2007 are not valid sources, which can lead to more conjectural titles. Would it be possible to reword it? 03:46, 2 July 2017 (EDT)
 * The Prima guides are officially licensed by Nintendo as of 2007, so I would think so. Perhaps concurrent with the Nintendo Power's point 2? 10:57, 2 July 2017 (EDT)

Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names
So, according to the current rules, Prima guides are treated as more official than filenames, and Nintendo Player's Guides are treated as more official than Prima. However, considering the recent Hatopop/Cheep Cheep situation, as well as the Klamber/Scuttle Bug and Scorchit/Zeus Guy issues before it, I feel there should be an exception to the source priority rule if the "better" source's name is less specific and likely incorrect than one given by a "low-priority" source.

Proposer: Deadline: October 24, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) – I agree that a lower priority source may be used if happens to be more suitable/less confusing.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) per all.
 * 5) If by "better source" you mean unique or noncontradictory name, I agree. Per all.
 * 6) of course. And in my opinion, file names should always be preferred over other sources.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Considering I supported the Hatopop name, per all.
 * 9) - These are official Nintendo sources; this feels like a no-brainer to prioritize them above Prima guides.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Everyone seems to be voting for this, so why not? I'm gonna do it too. Per all. And plus, the naming policy confuses me anyway.
 * 12) It'd definitely help in certain scenarios (for instance, if one source refers to a new variety of Goomba as simply "Goombas" instead of, say, "Barbed Goombas").

Oppose

 * 1) Under those circumstances, a proposal should be used on a case-by-case basis, as it's subjective what the "better" name is in many circumstances. Particularly as Cheep-Cheep was a better name in that case :V
 * 2) Per Doc. It depends on the name.

Comments
@Doc: How was Cheep Cheep the better name? While it came from a higher priority source, it was more confusing than the current title. Niiue (talk) 05:44, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it was more understandable on the SMS template to a monolingual English-speaker than the Japanese one. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:28, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I disagree. Most people would think it's talking about the more common enemy with that name if anything. Niiue (talk) 07:17, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But it came with an identifier. And there's only one other bird enemy in Sunshine. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 07:31, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Even so, it's still less confusing to just give it a unique title. Niiue (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

What is a confusing name? Examples are fine, but especially for a policy page, you need a concrete definition. 09:24, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

In the cases of conflicts between naming I think we should revise priorities, though. While I agree about the situation of PRIMA guides not always being reliable in the names (Bomb-ombs in Super Mario Sunshine are a good example..), Japanese Official Nintendo Guidebooks might reveal official names that are consistent - a case being that of Bats in Super Mario Galaxy, whose Japanese name 「バットン」 was consistent in Japanese among both the Official Nintendo Guidebook of Super Mario Galaxy, the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. and even the Super Mario Pia, the latter being published by Pia and written in collaboration with Nintendo, and that name definitely wasn't the name of Swoops, 「バサバサ」, which was instead the name suggested by the internal name. When an official name is consistently used, this shouldn't be overlooked beause of the internal name suggesting something else. Said internal names are derived from Japanese most of the times, anyway.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:15, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
 * For what it's worth, the internal names for Super Mario Sunshine are inconsistent with the Pia and Encyclopedia SMB, but are actually consistent with the English BradyGames and Versus guides, so somehow those two got a hold of the internal names. The files also make a point of using the "standard" Japanese name for the enemies' folders but then using the weird new names for all of the actual files (models, animations and whatnot). I could genuinely turn this into a splitting spree, Bomb-omb/Neji Bomb et al. 10:35, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

@Lcrossmk8: I strongly discourage you from voting only to join in the bandwagon. 00:14, 12 October 2017 (EDT)

Can we change the sentence regarding calling Swoops Bats?
It seems to have been directed at the SMG2 Prima guide, but since those have been split, could it be replaced with another example, for instance Crowber? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Thanks. I've put Crowber down.


 * 05:56, 10 October 2017 (EDT)

Naming hierarchy question
With the English release of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. coming out later this year, where would it fall on the hierarchy if there's contradicting names? For example, Bat (Super Mario Galaxy) is a pretty generic name, if the English release were to change it to something else hypothetically (like "Batton", the Japanese name or something), what would be the proper protocol there, would we change the name to the Encyclopedia one or keep the Prima name? BubbleRevolution (talk) 03:13, 2 March 2018 (EST)
 * These proposals set the precedent to use legacy names whenever appropriate, so if there's a contradiction between a strategy guide and Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., the original strategy guide would take precedence in most cases since it was released concurrently with its respective game. Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. will primarily be useful to replace foreign names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:40, 2 March 2018 (EST)

Capitalization and identifiers
If two subjects have the same name but different capitalization (e.g. Red Diamond (Luigi's Mansion) and red diamond (Wario World)), do they require identifiers? I've always been unsure about this one and I need to create an article that will cause a similar scenario, so I'm asking now. 18:55, 10 March 2018 (EST)
 * Yeah, I'd say so. Having just Red diamond and Red Diamond is not great. -- 18:59, 10 March 2018 (EST)
 * I agree. It would cause issues with the search function. 19:03, 10 March 2018 (EST)

Dr Mario

 * For example, Dr. Mario is a disambiguation page linking to all the other uses of the title, such as Dr. Mario (game) and Dr. Mario (character)

No longer true... - Reboot (talk) 07:06, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
 * Thanks, it's been changed. 07:25, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Honebon
Since Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia took out the pronunciation identifiers from Honebōn's name when "translating" it, a different example will probably be needed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Switched it to Kaibādo. 16:24, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Which itself has reason to be moved to "Kai bird." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:37, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Does it? That's not how the Japanese characters are written. 16:40, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * OK, "Kaibird," forgot how spaces for this sort of thing worked. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:50, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * That's a literal translation of the name, but it's not the letters the characters spell out. Is there a different example you want to use? 16:55, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Hm, maybe I was actually thinking about how "Hokuso" should be changed to "Hawks." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:27, 13 October 2018 (EDT)

Decide how to handle internal naming
As requested by proposer.

Ok, i've seen many internal naming in this wiki, and i'd like to open this. we have been with this multiple times, and while some of them are english, some of them are simple romanizations. Proposer: Deadline: February 25, 2019, 23:59 GMT Cancelled: February 19, 2019, 11:59 GMT
 * Option 1= This will affect the "Beamer" enemies
 * Option 2=This will not affect examples such as the Beamer enemies, but definitive romanizations will be marked as another language. Bakky, Pattan (i already did it for this one though) to name a few.
 * Option 3=The internal filenames will be considered english, and will not have the another language template.
 * Option 4=All internal filenames will be considered as romanized from something english, which was written in "kanji" for example, and will all have an another language template.
 * Option 5=The "loanworded" internal filenames are the only ones which will not have an another language template.

Consider "loanworded" names, including partly romanized as Japanese

 * 1) Second (and preferred) option, as some "Beamer" enemies are named in the encyclopedia, but we can't cite it. I don't know wether they are named in the Prima guide, but their internal filename is a romanization of their Japanese name.

Consider "loanworded" names english, and consider some internal filenames simply romanized

 * 1) Per proposal. It includes the examples i gave here.

Comments
I'm not sure if we can set a rule. Most of the times the internal names are Japanese names (not really romanized ones, Koopa is not the proper romanization of 「クッパ」, Kuppa, and Catherine is not the proper romanization of 「キャサリン」, Kyasarin), but there are exceptions, the most notable being the Super Mario Maker internal costume names, which were very frequently English names. We also have peculiar cases like Plessie's internal name, which is very likely based on English puns (Raidon for what is basically a nothosaur you ride on).--Mister Wu (talk) 09:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * You're right, in the sense that most internal filenames are romanized. -- 13:15, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Is this proposal really appropriate with this amount of options? 14:10, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I also feel like this proposal is more suitable as a mainspace proposal rather than a TPP as it's a major policy change that affects all of the wiki. 18:25, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * Nah, it's fine here since it really just applies to naming. But all of the internal names I've seen so far (that have been posted on the wiki, not from personal file digging) have been using English characters. So I'm not sure I understand what this proposal is going to change. 18:29, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * There's a difference between "using Roman characters" and "being an English name." Recall the Japanese playing cards that had romanized names. They aren't English names. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * The interesting part is that while in some cases you can see how the internal names are mirroring Japanese names in kana (e.g. Kinopico, where the co part refers to the Japanese 「子」, child) in quite a few other names they aren't really romanized names - they are more like the names that the Japanese kana want to represent, reagardless of whether they actually can or not (see Catherine's case, the Japanese name is「キャサリン」, which should be romanized as Kyasarin, but it actually wants to be a transcription of Catherine).--Mister Wu (talk) 20:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, i kinda agree. We can't cite the encyclopedia, and as "Whimp" is a name that originates from the wiki, the only lead is the Japanese name. The internal filename itself is a romanization of the Japanese name, and for some reasons (much like Starbag, it doesn't have the another language template. -- 00:47, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * Internal Naming? What? Luigistandrpg3.gif♠Grained Cargo 192♠ SPP - Luigi Animation.gif 13:29, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * It's to determine how to treat internal filenames, when using it as an article's name. -- 13:31, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Alex95, they're not only english letters, but these letters have also been used in other languages. -- 14:04, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * If no one else votes, would the proposal be listed as no quorum? -- 12:27, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * Yes. 20:40, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * I'm not so sure what the proposal is trying to accomplish by tackling "romanizations" in general. By definition, romanization entails the conversion of one writing system to the Roman/Latin script, and because much of it is passes in English, whether the developers are using "true" romanizations will often be indeterminate. Perhaps a better way to frame the discussion would be what to do when an internal name coincides with a known unlocalized name (e.g. Mini Wanwan), which is a more tangible method, and maybe consider the idea of implementing an "internal data" template for article titles; either way, this is too amorphous to have gone straight to proposal in my estimation. Also, since such a proposal is pretty broad, it would help a lot to get the full list of titles on the wiki that reference internal data, and know how each option would affect them. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:03, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * I attempted to make an "internal file name" template a while back, but never ended up doing anything in the end.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * My first option is on cases like Starbag, if you don't get. -- 12:26, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * If the idea is to move Petari back to Starbag, I vehemently disagree with giving Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia an inch after what it pulled. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * Pretty sure the idea is to give it the "another language" template or move it to Petapeta (the latter of which should be done anyway in accordance with policy), because it's not an English name by any description. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2019 (EST)
 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, exactly. Potentially the same for the more tenuous Cheep Cheep/Hatopop situation. -- 07:23, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Something as basic as Goomba isn't derived from an English word and direct transliterations do happen, but we can move Petari to Petapeta if that becomes the consensus, though I'm not sure why you seem to be validating Starbag and the other Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia names. Hatopop is trickier because it's not mentioned in official Japanese guides, "pop" adequately describes it, and it's not a Cheep Cheep in any way, shape or form. I agree there should have been a proposal first, but it's now covered by the above. Ultimately, the idea is to minimize the wiki's foreign titles, so I'm starting to think that the better approach might be to use the another language template for Japanese names we have to unofficially romanize ourselves, use a separate template for official internal data (which may or may not be romanized themselves), and leave it at that. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:29, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * The example you brought up, the word that was used for the Goomba's name (along with Unagi and Sushi) is also an english word, and is given by localizers, not the original company. I'm not validating the Super Mario Encyclopedia's name, my idea was the one that Doc von Schmeltwick was sure of. -- 12:30, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * The Goomba section states that its name is derived from Italian and/or Hungarian. Also, whether a name comes from the company or localizer is irrelevant, since we're not putting a foreign language tag on, say, Super Mario Bros. Special anytime soon. What matters is the word itself, and the fact is that none of these are actually written in Japanese. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * So? Internal filenames are never intended to show up to players, and we're actually written in roman letters. -- 12:56, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Which is why they're considered last tier. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:59, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * This proposal, is to update it. -- 13:01, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Since they're last-tier, the Petapeta thing should have never even been a discussion. It should be moved to Petapeta. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:11, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * What about cases like Cuttacutta? It is onomatopoeic like many Japanese words, but as far as the Mario vs. Donkey Kong series is concerned, practically everything else is decidedly English. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:29, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Because the game was made by an american division, which most enemies had their english name (such as the Snifit) in their intenral filenames. -- 13:31, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * ^^^^^^^^ Additionally, SMG has filenames like Mogu for a mole, which are obviously Japanese and not English. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:37, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * An American division with several Japanese on staff; anyway, too many assumptions are made here for my taste as, for example, Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Mario Maker, whose core developers comprised entirely of Japanese, still used some English localizations in there. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:47, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Regardless, it's pretty clear to me that "Petari" isn't one of them. I personally think it should be based on relative consensus. Most DKJB internal names seemed English enough to work, but not SMG (showing that not even going by studio is a good rule, since theirs were the same). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:00, 16 February 2019 (EST)
 * Agreed. -- 06:51, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * While the "Petari" details can be moved to the foreign names template. -- 06:58, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * Still a very specific case for a proposal of this sheer scope, and it wasn't just one person who agreed with Petari over Petapeta. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2019 (EST)

As they are, I think it should be pretty obvious by now that options 3 and 4 are a bust, and the idea of "definite romanization" is rather loose, but can you further explain how exactly you define "loadworded" and what the practical difference is between all the other options? Also, isn't option 5 the same as option 1? And where's the "do nothing" or "case-by-case" option? LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2019 (EST)

Can an admin cancel this for me? LinkTheLefty pointed out that i forgot an option, and, no decision was reached, so i can restart it at any time. -- 03:56, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Decide how to handle internal filenames: take 2
The fact that i'm restarting the proposal is that i forgot to add a "Keep-as-is" option. As we are currently deciding how to handle internal filenames, Petari is intended to be renamed into Petapeta, i'd like to reopen this.

Proposer: Deadline: March 5, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Consider "loanword" names, including partly romanized as Japanese

 * 1) My preferred option, as the "Beamer" enemies are named in the encyclopedia, but we don't cite it (as i checked in Google Books)

Consider "loanword" names english, and consider some internal filenames simply romanized

 * 1) Per proposal.

Consider all internal filenames english

 * 1) Out of all the proposal options, this is the one that most closely aligns with my preference - with the express addendum that we create an internal data template; otherwise, "all" is too much of a blanket statement, and the romanization options are too subjective as they are simply not working with a technical definition (as mentioned above), which is necessary for coherent, functional policy.

Keep the current setup

 * 1) While I agree with a clearer naming policy for internal data in theory, none of these options are very practical, so I'd rather we continue to generally classify them as "development names" with room for deeper discussion on a case-by-case basis until a more objective approach comes along; as it is, the implementation of this proposal could only end up creating more problems than it solves.

Comments
LinkTheLefty is planning to rename "Petari" into Petapeta. -- 07:43, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * It being suggested as per the above comments doesn't necessarily mean I definitely plan on it since there was some disagreement on how to handle it in that subject's talk page. Also, I believe cancellation falls under rule 7: "No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old." LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:42, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * Not really. 09:12, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * I see. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:00, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * If the proposal was cancelled, it means no decision was reached, so a new proposal can be started immediately. 12:06, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * It almost seems like a loophole since one could say cancellation is a decision in and of itself, but I see it's been done. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2019 (EST)

Here was the template I came up with:  The title of this is official, but it comes from an internal file name. As such, it potentially reflects an early point in development that may not be the intended name by the final product, may be a developer nickname not intended to be officially used, and may not be in English. If an official name from an English source is found, the should be  to its appropriate title. -Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2019 (EST)
 * Cool! Should i wait the proposal to pass, or i can create the template anytime soon? -- 02:09, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Given I made it, I should probably make it when I have permission from the higher-ups to. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2019 (EST)