Talk:Undergrunt

Should the Undergrunts be related to Monty Mole or not?
I wanted to discuss this topic to see what the Mario Wiki thinks about the moles in Mario Galaxy being Monty Mole species or not. Yes, I do know that we classify them as unrelated as of now, but I made this proposal due to some people still thinking they are related even after the agreement of them being not. So anyways, I am curious on what this wiki thinks about these mole species being related or not.

Proposer: Deadline: December 13, 2021 23:59 GMT

Option 1: They are most likely unrelated to the Monty Mole species, due to no concrete info saying otherwise.

 * 1) I do not see why some people say that they are Monty Mole species. Nobody ever says other moles not confirmed to be Monty Mole species are related to Monty Moles so I do not see why the Undergrunts get a pass since they also have no official sources stating them as Monty Mole species. So yeah, I believe that the moles in Super Mario Galaxy were meant to be a separate mole species unrelated to Monty Mole. I only think people confused them as being related because of them being in a main series game and having a few similarities to the Monty Mole species.
 * 2) Per MontyMoleLoreMaster.
 * 3) Clearly. Just because they're moles, doesn't mean they're related. They may be comparable, but definitely being Monty Moles, or being Monty Moles at all? No, no confirmation on that. At least Ragumo had a Japanese media noting the similarity. Per all.

Option 2: I think that they are unrelated to Monty Mole, however, I believe an official source somewhere might say that they are related

 * 1) I personally think that this makes the most sense.

Option 4: They are most likely related or are relatives to the Monty Mole species, due to some of the similarities or the German name.

 * 1) - There's too many design similarities (especially to the early days, note the cheeks) for it to be a coincidence. While I wouldn't call them a "variant" without more concrete evidence, I think relative is fine.
 * 2) They share some distinguishable traits with Monty Moles anyways (and their relatives also bear similarities with Rocky Wrenches), so I think this makes the most sense.

Comments
I think saying they are comparable is the best option due to the similarities. And also for the fact that they are never confirmed to be related at all. Ragumo at least was mentioned of being a Monty Mole relative yet the Undergrunts were not (for all we know). I believe that Undergrunts were probably at least inspired by Monty Moles, I just don’t think they are meant to be related to them since if they were, a guidebook would most likely claim them to be Monty Mole species like Ragumo (I have not checked any Japanese guidebooks so maybe they say that they are related in those? If they do could someone check it out?). I was wondering about that German name for Undergrunt Gunner? What would that play into this? (Correction: it is not really the name of origin since it is German and not Japanese which are usually the sources of names. So it is still probably up in the air for now about the relations). MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 18:07, November 30, 2021 (EST)


 * @Doc von Schmeltwick, Also there are other enemies with similarities to specific species that are not considered related to said species. For example, Skeletal Fish Guards that also appeared in Super Mario Galaxy are similar to Fishbones in terms of design and functionality. However, they are not considered related to them due to no official sources claiming it. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts and Monty Moles. Yeah the Undergrunts have some similarities in design and attack patterns. But they seem to be separate to the Monty Mole species like how Skeletal Fish Guards are separate to Fishbones. If they were meant to be related, one of the English guidebooks (such as the Prima ones) would have probably confirmed it. I think Prima never claimed them to be Monty Mole species due to them not thinking they were related (since they would probably said they were related otherwise). MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 22:34, November 30, 2021 (EST)
 * Thing is, SMG "Monty" is pretty much conceptually identical to Rocky Wrench (to the point there must be some influence), and Undergrunt is derived from it (to the point that before evidence showing otherwise, the wiki made the reasonable assumption they were one-off redesigns of Rocky and Monty). Anyways, since I stand by Monty Mole being derived from Rocky Wrench, this makes the most sense to me. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:52, December 2, 2021 (EST)
 * I also want to point out that Super Mario-kun also never considered them related. Major Burrows appeared in the Galaxy arc and they made no reference to them being Monty Mole species or made them designed to look like them (Maruigi Khed told me). Several moles such as Guragura and Hard Hat also appeared in the manga with no design changes or mentions of them being Monty Mole species as well. On the contrary, Ragumo was designed to look like Monty Mole in volume 6. This is probably because they actually had an official source at least hinting at them being relatives. So yeah, Super Mario-kun probably makes some moles look like Monty Moles due to them having an official confirmation or similar appearance to them. But if a mole had no official sources saying they were related such as Major Burrows they would treat them as a separate species. I think this might also hint at the Japanese guidebooks also not saying this at all. If they did think Major Burrows was related, I believe they would make them designed like Monty Mole or just state it due to a Japanese guidebook saying it. I think them not stating it is probably a subtle way of them thinking they are not related, due to no official sources saying otherwise. Also about your last comment, there are other video game enemies such as Madmole that have token inspiration from Rocky Wrench’s attack patterns. I think the SMG Monty probably took inspiration from the attack patterns and nothing else. Also I don't think they look like any Monty Mole species due to nose, eyes, and even the size being to large. They just look completely separate in my personal opinion. Other moles such as the Mario RPG Moles and Cook from Wario Land 2 have similar designs to Monty Mole yet have nothing related to that species. I believe the same can apply for Undergrunts due to them looking completely different and it was probably coincidental. MontyMoleLoreMaster (talk) 22:02, December 2, 2021 (EST)

It's probably too late for any big changes because there's already several votes, but I wanted to point out, I feel like Options 1 and 2 can be combined since there's always a possibility of a contradictory official source coming to light that necessitates the wiki readdress something (otherwise, it looks more like a poll, which isn't really the purpose of a proposal); Option 3 should be last since it's the status quo choice; -maybe- Option 4 could be broken down into two due to there being a difference between related and relative; and Option 5 just seems like a bridge too far and can probably be cut altogether, considering Monty Moles have never worn Undergrunt helmets and it would shake up the relation decided in previous proposals. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:32, December 1, 2021 (EST)