Talk:Bowser's Brother

English name
If he's referred to as "Bowser's Brother" or "Bowser's Twin" in the SMAS player's guide, should this page be renamed to reflect that?Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Considering we don't describe Kaptain K. Rool as being the brother of King K. Rool despite there being an in-game source for that, I don't think we should. The "Family relationship" section at the bottom is good enough. 16:08, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I'm just saying that naming would give that credence as a solution...Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:37, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It's true that we name articles according to English sources first (heck, the current article's title isn't correct; considering it comes from the Japanese text, it should be Koopa Ao or Kuppa Ao), but since modern sources don't mention a familial relationship between this guy and Bowser, calling him "Bowser's Brother" seems like a misleading misnomer. 17:09, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I would like to specifiy a thing: Blue Bowser is not in Super Mario All-Stars. The other Bowser in World 8-4 has the same appearance of Bowser, he's just an unnamed character, referred to improperly as Fake Bowser on page 92 of the Official Nintendo Guidebook of Super Mario Collection (the Japanese mame of Super Mario All-Stars). He isn't a Fake Bowser, of course, since if you defeat with fireballs he doesn't become another enemy, but he isn't Blue Bowser either, since he has the same coloring of Bowser. Same for the Bowser of World 9-3, that one was actually referred to as being the real Bowser, and of course the same was said for Super Mario All-Stars, which is even more credible since this time he had the very same appearance of Bowser. From what I've seen so far only the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. started stating that the Bowser of World 9-3 is Blue Bowser; since of course it is also the most recent official source, I included also that level in the page, although I'll probably rewrite that part once I have the translations of the books I found.


 * Long story short: Blue bowser is not in Super Mario All-Stars, making that reference from NOA even more surprising.


 * Anyway, this is why I stated in the Family Relationship section The character who replaced him was also stated to be Bowser's brother in the Super Mario All-Stars Player's Guide instead of Blue Bowser was also stated to be Bowser's brother in the Super Mario All-Stars Player's Guide.


 * Regarding the naming, effectively I haven't been enforcing the rule recently in the strictest manner, although we always report the name in the way it is written in Japanese. In the case of the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario character Encyclopedia I even asked and was told to use the translated name. After all, when names with a specific Western counterpart or words which aren't personal names and can be translated are found, it makes sense to use the translation, provided the actual Japanese name is also reported. This is what I did here: 「クッパ」 has a Western counterpart, Bowser, while 「アオ」 is just an adjective, blue. This way it's more clear to the readers what the subject of the page is, so we should probably review the naming policy on this part and see if it should be changed or just no longer strictly enforced.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * So "Blue Bowser" is a one-time name that describes a single depiction of the character? He was never blue anyways, as he was originally on the greener side of turquoise. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * First of all Blue Bowser is an official name, which was even reused in the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., whether he's actually blue or not is not really relevant, as the NES had severe palette limitations anyway. We have contradictory information on whether the "other Bowser" from SMAS should be considered the same as him, the only source suggesting this is, here is 's translation:


 * "Mario Interest Academy


 * Vanished Character, Altered Character


 * Huuh? Bowser is Blue


 * A fake Bowser appears in the Famicom version of Super Mario. Since his color is blue, you can tell at a glance that he's a fake, but unfortunately in Mario All-Stars he became the same green.


 * Yoshi in Mario 3 as Well


 * In Mario 3, the kings were transformed into various animals. In the Mario All-Stars version, these animals were changed to typical Mario characters. A king who became Yoshi also appears."


 * captions:


 * "He can't be distinguished from the real thing."


 * "Obviously fake blue Bowser."


 * "Yoshi is at a place like this!"


 * "He was safely returned to the form of a king."


 * The Official Nintendo guidebook of SMAS clearly doesn't call the normal colored Bowser Blue Bowser and neither the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and the , the three most recent sources on him, mention him having a different color in SMAS, actually the body being blue is noted as being the main feature. I'm still waiting for the translation of the Super Mario Bros. Daizukan, another 1994 character book written under the supervision of Nintendo, but we have little evidence that the SMAS "other Bowser" is just Blue Bowser, and certainly not from the current sources.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2017 (EDT)


 * "A fake Bowser appears in the Famicom version of Super Mario. Since his color is blue, you can tell at a glance that he's a fake, but unfortunately in Mario All-Stars he became the same green."
 * "he became the same green."
 * "he became the same green."
 * Became. As in he (one character) was one way before, but was in a different state later. But still the same character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Please, read everything I write. Blue Bowser is both a past and current name, used both in the Super Mario Complete Encyclopedia as well as the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros., Bowser's Brother isn't - it was exclusively used in the Western SMAS guide to refer to a character we aren't even sure it is the same character, as current sources don't make this claim at all.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * And "Bowser's Brother" is the only English name for the character with this particular placement in the game, and policy dictates that English names get the foremost treatment, regardless of age. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:55, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Policy can be overcome if we make a proposal out of it. 22:56, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * That's different because alternate names for Scorchit and Klamber were English anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * A talk page proposal might work, though, so we also see if we should enforce the Japanese naming rule strictly instead and use the romanized Japanese name, putting it as third option.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It occurred to me that technically the most recent name is "Bowser Imposter," as the SSBfWU tip was specifically referring to this...Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * And "fake Bowser" in that sense could simply mean "Bowser Doppelganger," and not refer to the specific things we have under Fake Bowser. The way it's worded in that blurb you gave makes me lean towards that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, the term 「ニセクッパ」 is used both, as well as a 2015 official book, the . SSB4 actually uses the same term too, 「にせクッパ」. So, in the article I'm almost sugar coating it by saying he's considered akin to a Fake Bowser, they use for him the very same name used for Fake Bowsers! And while he doesn't become another character when defeated with fireballs unlike the proper 「ニセクッパ」, for unknwon reasons since the Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia they preferred using this inappropriate term until the release of the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. finally used a definition and a term more in line with what the game shows - a character on his own separate from Bowser (he's fought before him in World 8-4) and distinct from the Fake Bowsers (he doesn't become another character when defeated with fireballs).--Mister Wu (talk) 20:08, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It'll probably be "Blue Bowser" once the English translation of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. comes out (unless it's been canceled). LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:16, 6 October 2017 (EDT)

And now that we cannot use Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, I support moving the article to Bowser's Brother. There is going to be an inconsistency with the name either way since the family relationship is contested and Super Mario All-Stars changed its color from the namesake blue (and we do have at least "Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia" suggesting it's the same one), so we might as well take the path of least resistance and go with the only one from an English source. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:03, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * Wait, you mean that the romanization of his Japanese name is Blue Bowser, and not Ao Kuppa? Or is it translated? I'm supporting the renname. -- 06:54, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * The subject has at least three different listed Japanese names (maybe more since it doesn't seem like it was ever given a real name), and Blue Bowser is more like a "localized" approximation of two of them, even though policy dictates that it should have been Koopa Ao, Nise Koopa or Koopa (Ao). LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:07, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * Due to the débâcle of the English translation of the Encyclopedia, you can use that name from the English Super Mario All-Stars guide, since using Blue Bowser at this point would mean following the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. I just ask you if you can specify, in the introduction here and when he's mentioned in paragraphs of the other pages, that he's blue colored (e.g. the blue-colored Bowser's Brother), since the current material since Super Smash Bros. for Wii U consistently agrees on this being the defining feature of the character and the outdated English name we'd use fails to convey that - it rather focuses on his identity at the time. Hopefully Super Smash Bros. Ultimate will give us a more up-to-date name, but at this point we can't really rely too much on that either...--Mister Wu (talk) 10:49, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * "Blue Bowser" isn't accurate to begin with, since he's not really "blue" anyways, but dark teal, having the exact same palette encoding as the regular Bowser, just with the values in that slot differing due to location. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:13, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * It might not be the most accurate name with respect to the game's sprite, but the various official material that refers to the him in the FDS version of Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels consistently states that he's blue when it refers to his color. Remember that we aren't using the Bowser's Brother name because it better reflects what the character is - if anything, that name currently is a lot more inaccurate than Koopa (blue)! - but because our policy prompts us to do so.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * And Hootie the Blue Fish is clearly purple, except when flashing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * It's not just that his Japanese name is Blue Bowser, he's outright stated to be blue in official material, in a repeated and consistent way. We can't ignore this as it would go against the wiki's policy of reporting what is said about the character in official material. In any case, I readded in the main page the actual colors of the NES sprite for clarity. Keep in mind that the Bowser blue palette swap in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U is stated to use his actual colors (even in the Japanese text), meaning that there's now an updated coloration of him more in line with his name in the Japanese Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros..--Mister Wu (talk) 21:19, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * Done, the blueish coloration should be mentioned wherever it's applicable. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:47, 27 November 2018 (EST)
 * Thanks a lot!--Mister Wu (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (EST)

All-Stars unused palette
https://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_All-Stars#Unused_Palettes

TCRF states:

"At ROM addresses 235E3 (Super Mario Bros.) and 73447 (The Lost Levels) in the North American version, the palette above can be found, which isn't loaded anywhere. It is a perfect fit for Bowser's sprites: In the original Famicom Disk System version of The Lost Levels, the first Bowsers encountered in Worlds 8-4 and D-4, as well as the one encountered in 9-4, use an alternate bluish palette with darker skin, resembling this palette. This palette swap is often referred to as Bowser's brother in official material. However, all Bowsers in All-Stars use his standard green palette."

This isn't touched upon anywhere on the article and I think at the very least should be mentioned somewhere, maybe in the Trivia section.
 * Interesting! That's a very recent addition to that page, being added in May, hence why it's not on here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:33, August 21, 2021 (EDT)

Do not consider Bowser's blue Super Smash Bros. costume as an appearance of Bowser's Brother
This article covers each and every blue recolor of Bowser in the franchise, but Bowser's blue costume in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is treated as a reappearance because one of his fighter tips seems to claim it as being Bowser's Brother. Although it's not uncommon for separate characters to occupy alternate costume slots (see Koopalings), I do not agree with this interpretation. Here's the text:


 * "A Bowser Impostor?! – In Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, Mario fights a blue fake Bowser before the real thing. That blue fake is his eighth color in this game!"

For comparison, two fighter tips from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate explain the origins of Meta Knight's seventh and eighth alternate costumes, but they clearly state that they are references, not appearances of the characters themselves:


 * "Galacta Knight – Meta Knight's seventh color variation is based on Galacta Knight, who makes an appearance in Kirby Super Star Ultra and is said to be the strongest warrior in the galaxy.
 * "Dark Meta Knight – Meta Knight's eighth color variation is based on a shadow version of Meta Knight, Dark Meta Knight, who appears in Kirby & The Amazing Mirror."

With the lack of a unique name given to the blue Bowser fighter, it is clear that the developers only intended to make a reference, as is the case with most Smash Bros. alternate costumes. The way I see it, the Bowser quote comes off as sloppy writing/translation and insubstantial proof of a technical appearance. (It could even make a better case for being the brother's Spiny imposter in World D-4 instead...)

Passing this proposal would move Super Smash Bros. information in with the rest of the blue recolors.

Proposer: Deadline: June 14, 2022, 23:59 GMT June 21, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Don't think this proposal is needed; looks like we just need some minor wording changes and all.
 * 3) Per Bazooka Mario.

Oppose

 * 1) - Can't really argue with the game's own wording, and unlike cases such as the Daisy costume, Bowser and this entity started as the exact same coded object anyway. (I do wonder why this has been getting more relative support so far than my Deep Cheep proposal, which was of the same idea but didn't have the in-game naming aspect to throw a wrench in it at all.)
 * 2) I agree with Doc. The Japanese text doesn't really suggest a translation mistake having happened, and ultimately from a technical point of view in all his appearances Blue Bowser was just Bowser, his different color just stemmed from the local palette of the area. As such, it makes sense for the developers to say that the blue-colored texture swap of Bowser is Blue Bowser, rather than just a reference like in the case of the Daisy recolor of Peach.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
For reference, we do actually have the Japanese text of the tip, from Super Smash Bros. for Wii U: にせクッパ!? 『スーパーマリオブラザーズ2』には、青いクッパが登場する. 倒すとその先にいつもの緑のクッパがいる. 『スマブラ』では8Pカラーで青いクッパになる. I'm not sure if we can really translate the verb 「なる」 as "is based", the closer we could say is "act as", but we should probably translate that verb as "becomes", i.e. Bowser becomes Blue Bowser with the 8P color.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:59, May 31, 2022 (EDT)
 * Thanks for this. Sounds more like a transformation than a tag team. Would either "embody", "signify" or "perform" be viable? 15:58, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

Regardless of what happens I'd prefer for the information to remain in the history section. The other section talks about other blue recolors of Bowser, but we know that the Smash alt is based on Bowser's Brother thanks to the tip. -- 11:56, May 31, 2022 (EDT)
 * That's fair. 15:58, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

Since there are no votes and it is very early, I have removed the last sentence in my proposal. Please let me know if this is wrong. 16:19, May 31, 2022 (EDT)
 * It's allowed to alter TPPs within three days of making them, you're good. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:27, May 31, 2022 (EDT)

As Waluigi Time said, I feel it's a similar situation to Daisy-colored Peach where the color is clearly not an appearance of the character, but a reference, but it should still be mentioned in the article. Similar example is Mario's brown-tan/white recolor being a reference to Foreman Spike; DK's white recolor being later appropriated as a reference to Super Kong despite the recolor predating Super Kong. 20:34, May 31, 2022 (EDT)
 * I agree 100%. I never said it should be outright removed. 04:57, June 1, 2022 (EDT)