MarioWiki:Proposals

List of talk page proposals
None at the moment.

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Split articles/keep articles split if they have notable name and appearance changes. Merge articles if they have the same name and not enough changes from the original.
Currently, the wiki does not have a clear set guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled. If this proposal goes through I believe it will friendlier for new and exisiting wiki users as it allows content to be searched outside Mario Wiki and covered more cleanly.

I propose that articles covering similar should be split in the following conditions.


 * If there is a name change. This should be the most important factor in deciding an article split, as search engines such as Google rely on the name the most.
 * It is considered a different entity by the game itself in addition to the name change. Direct replacements such as Power Star to Grand Star can be covered in the original article. Moves used by different characters count.
 * If there are design differences in addition to the above, such as with Daisy Blossom and Goombo.
 * If the same name is shared, but there are significant differences to the point where a seperate article is needed to cover them all. Examples like Mario and Sonic games from Wii to DS count.

Articles possibily affected include: Daisy Blossom, Daisy Bomber, Daisy Parasol, Azure Roller, Cyber Slick, Goombo and the ports of games with the same name such as Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and Luigi's Mansion.

Proposer: Deadline: October 27, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Not only do I think pages such as Azure Roller and Daisy Blossom should be split from Roller and Peach Blossom because they have different names and look different, they also don't appear in every game and share every single detail. Azure Roller appears in different CPU controller karts and time trials, and Daisy Blossom is all flowers and daisies and the background and frames are completely different, and also doesn't appear in games before Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. There is also the issue of how search engines such as Google cannot easily link Daisy Blossom to Peach Blossom and a user searching up the move will not get relevant results unless it's on a seperate page. There are a lot of people searching up wheels such as Retro Off Road and Cyber Slick. For games such as Captain Toad Treasure Tracker and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze with the same name and a lack of drastic sweeping changes, I think they should be merged and exclusive content covered in the article itself, then it would be friendlier if Switch owners are looking for the content.

Oppose

 * 1) The statement that there's no policy on splitting pages with the same name is downright false; policy and consensus have stated that if something has gameplay differences, it's splitting time. Azure Roller being merged to Roller doesn't even need a proposal, just a talk page discussion. Finally, this all seems like a knee-jerk reaction to the Daisy Bomber page being converted back to a redirect, seeing as it happened just yesterday.
 * 2) Per DarkStar and my principle towards opposing proposals that are purely reactive and/or prioritize forcing through a user's personal opinion over all else. In support of the later, it's evident that the proposal's claim (at least prior to any editing) of the wiki lacking "a guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled" is poorly researched to the point of being blatantly false - for starters, we have this proposal regarding ports, and with regards to slightly different entities and games bearing the same name, we have this section on the "Naming" page of our writing guidelines and the "New Article" guideline on titling pages for ported games, which I believe may have served as a basis for the aforementioned proposal.
 * 3) per the above, but it really seems too subjective/non-concrete to me. I think it would create more inconsistency over less due to not being able to tell alternates in-page and alternates new-page. - 11:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * 4) This proposal is extremely vague and your list doesn't even come close to how many articles this would affect, and is also confusing since it doesn't even mention which articles would be split and which ones would be merged if this passed. You're painting with far too broad of a brush here, matters like this should only be settled on a case-by-case basis. Also, like I told you before, having a different name alone is not an instant reason to split articles (on the other side of the coin, having the same name is also not an instant reason to merge articles) and would unnecessarily undo countless proposals over the years. I get that you really want Daisy Blossom to be split for whatever reason, but this is going way too far.

Comments
We already split subjects with different names and appearances, such as with Goombo. Regardless, arguably Daisy's special moves are different than other variants, as Daisy is labelled as an echo fighter, contrary to other examples of variants which are often treated as their own separate thing. Due to that there is less ground to split Daisy's special moves when they are literally part of a official clone of a character. Regardless, the "and if there are less than four variants" thing is unnecessary, as really if a thing should be split than it should be split, merging stuff just because there is a lot of things would just be confusing and would pad out articles for no reason. 09:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

There are more differences between Daisy's moves and Peach's moves than Goombos and Goombas. I believe Daisy still have a seperate Movelist page in the game than Peach has. In New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were similar enough to be merged and not seperately selectable in game, and literally call the same model. They have seperate pages on the wiki. Echo Fighters are more like how you copy a file and it still takes up extra space on your harddrive, rather than creating a file shortcut. The original Japanese meaning even references how derivative numbers are still different numbers despite being copied from. -- memoryman3 09:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * There isn't more difference though. If anything, that just comes off as biased. As for Blue and Yellow Toad, you can actually select either of them. The reason that they are in the same slot and thus cannot play as both Blue and Yellow Toad is because Toadette took the slot the Blue Toad had. They have separate pages on the wiki simply due to their previous appearances regardless. If you copy a file it is still the same file, and the comparison has nothing to do with wether or not Daisy's move should be split.  09:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * Even if you could select Blue and Yellow Toad in different slots, the only difference between them is the color of their mushroom cap. No gameplay differences and no design differences other than that, Nintendo explictly kept them as similar as possible. They are still seperate pages. Like Peach and Daisy's moves the game appearances are a bit different. As for the copying thing, if the file is changed a bit, for all intents and purposes it is a different file. For Blue Toad and Yellow Toad I would probably keep them split for the search engine reasons.--MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png memoryman3 09:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

I have updated the proposal to more clearly reflect what I mean, and how this could be applied wiki wide. This is not reactive. -- memoryman3 10:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Been following the matter on the talk page, and this is rather poor form to say the least. -- 10:32, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Generally poor form to make a proposal when you've been unanimously opposed on the talk page beforehand. 10:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Explain how Daisy's moves don't deserve their own pages when they have been given their own pages ingame, plus content such as the identical Mario Kart wheels, Goombo, and the two Toads allowed to have their own pages with even less differences? That does not make any sense to me. We can very easily merge Goombo with Goomba as it is just the Super Mario Land variant of a Goomba with an appearance change. -- memoryman3 10:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * Explanation.


 * Azure Roller doesn't need a proposal, just a quick discussion.
 * Daisy's specials are practically identical to Peach's save for visual effects.
 * The Toads are separate characters, not the same toad in different hats.
 * That is my explanation. 10:44, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

In addition, Goombo and Goomba have different Japanese and English names, were explicitly described as relatives, and variants of existing enemies already have precedents for splitting. Try again. -- 10:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Yes, but Daisy's moves arguably fall under the Goombo and Goomba variants. Daisy's moves, whilst behaving the same as Peach's moves, have differences including visual effects. Visuals are still a difference worth noting. If Daisy's moves looked a bit different and had the same name it would make sense to keep them merged. However the naming being different means that in order for the move to be properly represented across the web, it needs to be split into a new article. If you type Daisy Blossom into Google you don't get relevant images easily, unlike with Peach Blossom. Additionally. Daisy Blossom does not appear in any other Smash game other than Ultimate. They are also technically seperate moves, such as how Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are seperate characters. Daisy is not a Peach costume, she is unlocked seperately. It is the same thing for Azure Roller and normal Roller. Different unlock times, different appearances, different names, different wheels. A split makes sense even though the function is the same. -- memoryman3 10:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * It makes no sense to make a duplicate page just to note the difference in visuals. 10:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * The pages will not be duplicate pages however. Daisy Blossom's past edits had notable changes such as new images, new descriptions, and how it relates to Daisy's past instead of Peach's past. Daisy Parasol would show Daisy's 8 different parasol designs and how she uses it in her entrance animation and not her taunts and victory animations. The articles would also not be cluttered with references to previous games, like how Cyber Slicks and Azure Rollers don't reference Mario Kart 7. I plan to also revamp the Peach special pages along with this. --MK8DX_Daisy_Icon.png memoryman3 11:04, October 20, 2019 (EDT)


 * Have to second DarkStar here: The matter regarding the Final Smash will probably change when sufficient proof of differences beyond the visuals and character references (which are tied to the visual appearance, if I recall correctly) is put forth on the Talk Page where things were initially being discussed the day prior to this proposal. The same should apply for the rest of the special moves in question as well, I'd imagine. Much more pertinent is the fact that how we handle enemies and how we handle fighting moves are two entirely different baskets of eggs, and using the splitting of similar-but-differentiated enemy variants as a basis for splitting move variants that have not been sufficiently differentiated doesn't strike me as a particularly sound argument. -- 11:13, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

How so, it's literally the same thing. Goomba and Goombo have no differences beyond visuals and character references. Exact same thing with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. You can easily merge Goombo with Goomba and no one would bat an eye. I have already put many arguments as to why Daisy's moves have merits to be seperated, and to be honest none of the reasons against it strike me as compelling or more substantial than "Daisy's just Peach in orange", and how in general there's an bias against Daisy in the wiki due to her fans. I've already provided external reasons such as search engines not correctly referencing Daisy Blossom and visual differences being important. When people are looking for Daisy Blossom, I'm pretty sure they DON'T want pictures of Peach's trophies -- memoryman3 11:22, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
 * If Daisy Blossom getting "proper web representation" is your main concern here, SmashWiki already covers it on its own page. And no, that's not a good reason to split, the "X wiki does it so we should do" argument has been shot down many, many times over the years. I don't know how many times we have to tell you that every single one of Daisy's moves is functionally identical to Peach's, the only differences are visuals which aren't enough to warrant a separate page. I'd also like to point out that, with the exception of her Final Smash, not even SmashWiki splits Daisy's moves and specifically mentions that there's no difference between them, and this is the same wiki that explains specific amounts of frame and knockback trajectories. Ultimate has been out for almost a year, if SmashWiki hasn't found any differences between Peach and Daisy's moves that actually affect gameplay, there aren't any. -- 11:36, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Gameplay is not an argument. In fact I would say that basing it only on gameplay is unfair, when there are visual differences that affect areas such as Google Images. Or how an end user is looking for a specific variant. In that case we can say that there's no difference at all between Blue Toad and Yellow Toad and that they don't deserve seperate articles. But we split them, because when someone is looking for Blue Toad or a specific variant of a wheel, they are looking for information on that Toad or wheel specifically. Merging Daisy's named moves benefits absolutely no one except the people who REALLY dislike clone characters in fighting games and think they should be erased. -- memoryman3 11:58, October 20, 2019 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.