Talk:Dancing Spear Guy

Difference between Spear Guy and Dancing Spear Guy?
Where in Yoshi's Island DS is the difference between Spear Guy and Dancing Spear Guy made? 13:15, 2 January 2007 (EST)

In the Player's Guide.

How come the article title says Cannibal Guy but it says Dancing Spear Guy in the article itself? 13:57, 14 September 2008 (EDT)

Merge

 * 1) - Per below comments. (Temporary. Still looking into Japanese-language names)
 * 2) - Dancing is an action. An action like dancing does not make a difference. An action like flying does.

Leave un-merged

 * 1) - Per me
 * 2) - Per comments below. Different appearance, completely different attack/movement pattern, only the English localisation refers to both by the same name.
 * 3) - They appear in the same game, where they are introduced as two different types of enemies. That's all what's needed to have two separate articles. Merge these, and you have to merge many more.

Comments
They're visually-identical, are in the same games, and the only place they're named differently is a guide (published by which company?). Just because they're dancing doesn't make them a different enemy. If that were true, then the sleeping Piranha Plants in Super Mario 64 would have their own article. Merging this into the main page under "==Dancing Spear Guys==" would keep it all in a clean, more informative place. Redstar 15:39, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * Then we should merge Paratroopa with Koopa, shouldnt we? I quote, "are a variant of the Spear Guy", therefore, are not the same enemy. -- 15:54, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * Paratroopas have wings, Koopas can't fly. They're different "sub-species". Spear Guys have the exact same appearance and both are capable of dancing, just one is and one isn't. Redstar 15:58, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * THis is basically the same as your proposal, so, unless it passes, its a no.
 * Dancing Spear Guys are an entirely different type of enemy appearing in the same game as regular Spear Guys, and they differ from regular Spear Guys in appearance in more than one way, the only real similarity being part of their name (and that isn't even true in at least one non-English language), their mask and the fact they're holding a spear. There is also no evidence that regular Spear Guys would be "capable of dancing" as well, since they never do; there is no way for a Spear Guy to become a Dancing Spear Guy. They shouldn't be merged.--vellidragon 16:12, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * I own Yoshi's Island, and they're identical. The article does say their appearance was changed for the sequel, which would suggest they wanted to differentiate between the two, but the point is they're a variety of the same species, rather than sub-species. What I meant by "capable of dancing" was that, if we were in their "world", I'm sure they could easily sway their hips and jump around. They're fully capable of doing something that the supposed "Dancing" Spear Guys can. Many enemies in the Mario series sleep and then attack, but we don't divide them as different "Sleeping" and "Lucid" sub-species. Dancing is merely an action one is currently doing, not a factor contributing to an entirely different enemy. Redstar 16:23, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * Read page's 2 first comments --
 * The animated sprite in the article is from Yoshi's Island, and it's quite clearly not identical to the regular variety. We don't divide sleeping and awake enemies because sleeping enemies can wake up, but non-dancing Spear Guys cannot start dancing. May as well put all kinds of Shy Guys in a single article by your logic because they could change their outfit and attack/movement pattern; fact is that they don't, so they are treated as seperate enemies and have their own article each.--vellidragon 16:38, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * Dancing Spear Guys and Spear Guys are just sub-species, but that doesn't mean they should be merged because they attack differently, they look different, they move differently, and stuff. I have Yoshis Island and Yoshis Island DS, and I never found them to be similar at all.

@Redstar: Your example is flawed because the sleeping Piranha Plant would have to have an official name to even be considered a separate sub-specie. @Tucayo: Redstar's proposal affects nothing outside of the 8 articles he proposed to be merged, pass or fail.- 16:57, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * I don't see any difference between the two, excepting for the yellow cloak and the lack of a shield... And the shield could be explained because of the difficulty in animating its movements.


 * @Tucayo: Which player's guide? The one for Yoshi's Island, or Yoshi's Island DS? And which company for each, since both Nintendo and Prima printed a guide for each game. If it's Nintendo, then I'd be more than happy to agree to their statements if its explicit, and not just "These are dancing Spear Guys, that dance." It would have to actually treat them as different enemies, and not just a dancing Spear Guy.


 * @Vellidragon: You don't seem to understand my logic. I in know way want to merge the different Shy Guys into one article because they're all sub-species of the main species, Shy Guy. However, Dancing Spear Guy isn't a sub-species of Shy Guy... it's a variety of Spear Guy. It's a sub of a sub.


 * @Knife: My example wasn't meant to be taken to heart. My point is that if the official, Nintendo, guide suggests they are a different enemy, it's good. But if it just says they dance, then it shouldn't be taken as a differentiation. Also, I removed two of the articles I proposed to be merged from my proposal. You might want to check out which ones those are, and maybe reconsider. Redstar 17:01, 2 December 2009 (EST)


 * @Knife: Wouldnt that be inconsistency then?
 * @Redstar: I dunno, perhaps any will work.
 * My point is that Dancing Spear Guys are sufficiently different from regular Spear Guys to have their own article (in fact, they are clearly described as an entirely different type of Shy Guy in the German strategy guide for Yoshi's Island; it appears to be only the English translation that even calls them "Dancing Spear Guys"); Shy Guys on Stilts have their own article since they are a different type of enemy than regular Shy Guys, why shouldn't Dancing Spear Guys, which are considerably more different from regular Spear Guys than afforementioned Shy Guys on Stilts are from regular Shy Guys, have their own article? The fact they have a different name (which is not being used as an alternative name for the other variety) alone should be enough to classify them as seperate enemies, actually.--vellidragon 17:13, 2 December 2009 (EST)

Just for the record, the names of Spear Guys and Dancing Spear Guys in Japanese are 「ヤリホー」yarihō and 「ヤリヤリダンサー」yariyari dansā, respectively. The former is a portmanteau of 「槍」yari, which means spear, and 「ヘイホー」heihō, which means Shy Guy. The latter is simply "Spearspear Dancer" (This kind of ABAB construction is common in Japanese). Make of it what you will. 22:00, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * @Vellidragon: Stilt Guys deserve their own article because they're a sub-species of a main species. "Dark" and "Hyper" enemies deserve their own articles because they're a sub-type of a sub-species. Dancing Shy Guy isn't even a sub of a sub; it's merely a regular Spear Guy with a different form of movement. I also don't see how you feel Dancing Spear Guys are "considerably" more different from regular Spear Guys than Stilt Guys are to Shy Guys... Stilt Guys have an entirely new theme (stilts), while Dancing Shy Guys have no difference from regular Spear Guys besides the fact that they dance.


 * @Twentyrwofiftyseven: Thank you, Twenty. That is helpful, but I'm really not sure which way it favors... I wonder what the enemies are listed as, or even differentiated, in the game's coding?


 * For anyone involved, I've compiled a list of points that suggest there's no difference between the two. It's not much, but at least it might stir of discussion:


 * 1) Spear Guys return in Paper Mario. One of their moves is "Dance", which allows them to call for other Spear Guys to come to their aid. This proves Spear Guys are completely capable of dancing, even though some of them don't in Yoshi's Island.
 * 2) In Mario Party Advance, you can be challenged by a female Spear guy named Hulu to a match of synchronized dancing. Her and all other Spear Guys in the area, Spear Thicket, are noted to be Spear Guys. Clearly Spear Guys can dance.
 * 3) While not Spear Guys, their counterpart from the Beanbean Kingdom, Chuck Guys, also have a move similar to the Paper Mario Spear Guys that calls in more Chuck Guys upon dancing. Just because they have this move, they're not a different enemy when they use it. I don't become "Singing Redstar" upon singing.
 * 4) In Yoshi's Island DS, the level Spear Guys' Village Found! features both Spear Guys and "Dancing" Spear Guys. The name of the level isn't "Spear Guys' and Dancing Spear Guys Village Found!; it's just "Spear Guys". While not suggesting they are the same enemy (an easy shortening, since they both share those two words), it easily implies that they can at least be considered the same enemy. This level also featured Spear guys that stand in place, neither walking or dancing, that prod Yoshi when he moves by. Under your logic, these simply actions of a singular enemy should be divided into three articles: "Walking Spear Guy", "Dancing Spear Guy", and "Prodding Spear Guy".


 * While I'd be content to leave this as-is if that's the consensus, it just seems the two are just too alike to keep apart. The Spear Guy has shaped-up nicely after my work expanding it, but the Dancing Spear Guy article is a bit short. Merging it into the main Spear Guy article would complete both sides by providing all the information in one place. There's very little reason not to merge, and a whole lot of reasons for it. But I look forward to any rebuttals on keeping as-is. Redstar 11:49, 3 December 2009 (EST)


 * For the reason alone that the names of dancing and "non-dancing" Spear Guys differ in both English and Japanese, I won't support a merge (and in original Japanese, the name difference is even more notable). And gameplay-wise, they act very different in Yoshi's Island, too (while Lantern Ghost is effectively a visually altered Shy Guy, the difference between the Spear Guys is much more evident). In case of the Paper Mario and Mario Party Advance appearances, nothing speaks against incorporating the behaviour of related enemies. They are still two differently acting enemies in Yoshi's Island with different names in both the original version and the localization. --Grandy02 12:16, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Per Grandy -- 12:21, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * In this discussion so far, you have been the only one to support the merge, so I don't see why you would determine that there would be "a lot of reasons" to merge especially since you keep bringing up points that can easily be invalidated with the fact that Spear Guys and Dancing Spear Guys only have similar names in the English translation and nowhere else, so they would barely even be related in the official canon. Also, I would like to see your explanation to how a Shy Guy on Stilts counts as more of a sub-species than the Dancing Spear Guy since all it is is a regular Shy Guy who is walking on stilts.--vellidragon 12:26, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * I say this discussion is pretty much decided, so I am out of this :) Cya -- 12:35, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * It's been a discussion of only four people so far, myself included, with only several other people offering tid-bits. There's plenty people on here that can support or oppose, so I'm just offering my points. I determined there's a "lot of reasons" and I told them all above. None of the points I brought up can be invalidated by that fact, only countered. A good reason can't be invalidated by another good reason; one has to be bad... I don't personally consider the Stilt Guy a sub-species, but that's the way it already is and I don't feel it should be merged with the main Shy Guy article. While a Stilt Guy may just be a "Shy Guy on stilts", a Dancing Spear Guy is just a Spear Guy that's dancing. Both are rather trivial reasons to differentiate between the two, but the difference is that since Spear Guy is already a sub-article of Shy Guy, then a sub of a sub makes sense to merge. There's more benefit article-wise then there is downside. I'm not saying there aren't reasons against it, but from a strictly wiki-standpoint, it makes sense. The only reasons against, while valid, make little sense because they keep information segregated when it makes far more academic sense to keep them together. A sub of a sub is just poor standard. Redstar 12:38, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * It doesn't exactly make sense to merge them from a strictly wiki-standpoint since the decision to merge them would be based purely on speculation; there is no evidence in canonical sources that the Spear Guys and Dancing Spear Guys from Yoshi's Island would be the same kind of Shy Guy. The fact one is named "Dancing Spear Guy" is because the translators gave it that name during localisation; no other sources besides this particular English name translation even point towards any sort of relation between the two enemies in Yoshi's Island. The fact that Spear Guys may be able to dance in later games doesn't retrospectively change anything about Yoshi's Island, since there aren't any dancing ヤリホー in that game, the dancing Shy Guy types are named ヤリヤリダンサー.--vellidragon 13:02, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Okay, probably not from a wiki-standpoint, but from a presentation of information standpoint. Whether they are completely different enemies or sub-species of Shy Guys or what, they still have an exact likeness, wield the same weapons, appear in the same games, and appear in the same places. Surely you can't deny that among all the enemies of any Mario game, these two are pretty close and very little in their differences. One dances, one doesn't. This isn't Goomba compared to Dark Goomba or Hyper Goomba. Those are definite, deep down in their make-up, real-world evolutionary differences. To say that these two examples are on the same level as those are ludicrous. If they're to keep separated, we might as well split Spear Guy into "Walking Spear Guy" and "Prodding Spear Guy". Redstar 13:12, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Walking Spear Guys and Prodding Spear Guys aren't different enemies. You keep basing your argumentation on the fact that they are named Dancing Spear Guys, while it has been mentioned several times that being named that in the English version of the game does NOT have to mean that they actually are Spear Guys because that is NOT what their original name was, giving them that name was a decision made by the translators. Grinders from Super Mario World and Grinders from Yoshi's Island have exactly the same name in English without being related at all. And this is a Wiki, it's not about in-universe evolution of enemy creatures, which has never ever been explained in any way in canonical sources and would thus be pure speculation, but about the fact that they are clearly intended as two different enemies in Yoshi's Island from all the official information that can be acquired on them.--vellidragon 13:21, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * I'm not basing my arguments on their English name, but, rather their Japanese name. According to Twentytwofiftyseven, their names are exactly the same in Japanese. "Spearspear Dancer", as it will. I also didn't mean to imply that real-world evolution was in any way a canonical argument. I was using logic. Logically speaking, as well as canon names, clearly point out that a "Dancing" Spear Guy is a much different thing compared to a "Dark" Goomba. An action does not automatically denote one thing as an entirely different other thing. Redstar 13:33, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * "Spearspear Dancer" is in no way similar to "Spear Guy". It's not a dancing Spear Guy, it's a Spearspear.--vellidragon 13:39, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * How is "Spearspear Dancer" unlike "Spear ho"? (I'm unsure what exactly "ho" means, but I don't think it translates to "Guy".
 * "hou" is simply the second half of heihou, the name of the Shy Guys. I used "Guy" here to make it clear that "yari hou" (yari + second half of "heihou") amounts to about the same thing as "Spear Guy" (spear + second half of "Shy Guy"). And how is Spearspear Dancer anything LIKE Spearhou? It would have to be Spearhou Dancer if the intention was for it to be the same as a Spearhou except dancing. Since it's Spearspear Dancer, that means it's not a Spearhou, simple as that.--vellidragon 13:51, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * As far as I can tell, the "ho" means "garment", referring to Shy Guy's robes... Spearspear Dancer is like Spearhou, because, quite obviously, they both have the word "spear" in them. Can you not see that? Are you just ignoring it? I think the spear part is far more important than the ho part, which was removed as redundant. Ho, being a title and a passive noun, would do little use in a new word that already has a noun "Spear" and a verb "dancer". The ho was removed because it was redundant, and the second spear added to suggest the enemy was a variation of, or expansion, of the previous "spear" enemy. Redstar 13:54, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * And "Boom Boom" is like "Boom Guy" because they both have "Boom" in them, and they are the same thing because the "Guy" was redundant? Spearspear Dancers are named such because they have a spear, not because they're Spear Guys.--vellidragon 14:00, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * What do those have to do with anything? Those are English translations/renames, correct? You said yourself English names don't matter. And if that's why Spearspear guys are named that way, then why does the "dancer" part matter? Or for that matter, why does the "ho" part of Spear ho matter for, if the spear part is the only important one? You're twisting this whole thing around, and dismissing your own arguments. Redstar 14:06, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * I was pointing out that it's illogical to claim that two enemies are the same thing because they share a part of their name. "Yari" is an everyday word, it refers to a Mario enemy just as much as the English word "spear" does. Yaridovich is not a Spear Guy because he has Yari in his name.--vellidragon 14:09, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Yari isn't an everyday word... I doubt people talk about blades in everyday-conversation. Besides, is not Yaridovich a spear-wielding enemy? Names are important, and I pointed out that Dancing Spear Guy is clearly meant to be derived from Spear Guy because they removed the "ho" indicator and repeated the spear, creating a double-noun that indicates the connection. Redstar 14:13, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * "Everyday" in this usage doesn't mean the word is actually used every day, it means it's just a normal word of the Japanese (in this case) language. Yaridovich is indeed a spear-wielding enemy, that's why he has yari in his name; not because he's a Spear Guy. I fail to see how the Spearspear is supposed to be "clearly meant to be derived from Spear Guy" since 1. unless you know the person who designed the game's enemies, there is no way to tell which one was invented first, and 2. you stated yourself that it is missing the "hou" part, and as such is just as related to the Spear Guy as Boom Boom would be to Boom Guy.--vellidragon 14:17, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * I stated, and explained, why it's missing it: it would be redundant. The double-spear functions as a reminder of the common word to each name, "Spear". No one is reading it as "Spearspear Dancer" in Japanese, they're reading it as "Spear Guy, dancing". Redstar 14:22, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Citation needed.--vellidragon 14:27, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Like, what would do? Would a native-speaker/reader of Japanese, or a learned-speaker/reader? Or would I have to go up to a language professor? I can manage all of that, but I can't contact the people who made the game and ask them. Redstar 14:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * Since you are claiming that a native speaker would understand the two names as the same thing, a native speaker's opinion on them would be the only thing that can lift it to anything more than pure speculation.--vellidragon 14:37, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * I can get you both a native-speaker's opinion as well as that of a professor of language development currently living in Japan. Would those be enough to settle this proposal, either for or against? Redstar 14:39, 3 December 2009 (EST)