MarioWiki:Proposals

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r149/Deadringerforlove/dessert1.jpg A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code.

This page observes the No-Signature Policy.

How To
 * 1) Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
 * 2) Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
 * 3) *Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
 * 4) *Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
 * 5) *Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
 * 6) Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
 * 7) Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the Comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. The voter can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another User's vote lies solely with the Administrators.
 * 8) " # " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
 * 9) All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week.
 * 10) If a proposal has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes. If a proposal reaches the deadline and the total number of votes for each option differ by two or less votes, the deadline will be extended for another week.
 * 11) Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
 * 12) No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
 * 13) Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation. However, the proposer can request that their proposal be deleted by a Sysop at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it.
 * 14) All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a Sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
 * 15) There shouldn't be proposals about creating articles on a underrepresented or completely absent subject, unless there is major disagreement about whether the content should be included. To organize efforts about completing articles on missing subjects, try creating a PipeProject.
 * 16) Proposals can not be made about System Operator promotions and demotions. Sysops can only be promoted and demoted by the will of Bureaucrats.
 * 17) If the Sysops deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
 * 18) No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters, and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.

The times are in EDT (UTC -4:00), and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: , 27 2024 (EDT)

New Features
''None at the moment.

Removals
''None at the moment.

Merge RPG Boss Aspects With Main Boss Articles
This proposal is for support of moving a particular type of boss minion (as explained below) in the RPG games to their related main boss article. This is because these particular minions are only encountered in battle alongside bosses, because their Tattle information suggests they are either a part of or actually are the boss, because the main boss article is lacking complete information, and finally, because the splitting of these minions has largely resulted in stubs.

The following are a list of which minions are proposed to be merged, to whom, and why.


 * 1) The four Elemental Crystals in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, being Fire Crystal, Water Crystal, Earth Crystal, and Wind Crystal. All but the Wind Crystal are stubs, composed of mostly only a single sentence and an enemy template. These enemies are only ever fought alongside Culex, whose article already covers most of the information these stubs have. I propose merging these articles as sections of the main Culex page and creating redirects.
 * 2) The Petit Piranha and Lava Bud articles with the main Lava Piranha boss article. They are only ever encountered during the boss fight with the Lava Piranha. In fact, Lava Bud's Tattle description says "Lava Buds are little flower branching out from the main stem of the Lava Piranha.". This clearly points out they're only different "heads" of the same enemy. Petit Buds are spewed from Lava Buds, making them also part of the Lava Piranha. All are really the same enemy, so they should be merged to provide comprehensive information on the singular character.
 * 3) The Tuff Puff article into the main boss Huff N. Puff article. Tuff Puffs are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Huff N. Puff, and their Tattle information even says "These are the Tuff Puffs that break off when you damage Huff N. Puff." This clearly makes them the same enemy, just different "heads". Merge as a section.
 * And, finally, the Crystal Bit article into the main boss Crystal King article. Just like all the previous examples, Crystal Bits are only ever encountered in battle with the boss Crystal King. Also, like some of the previous examples, their Tattle description says " This is a Crystal Bit. Basically, Crystal Bits are just pieces of the Crystal King. You can drop 'em with ease. Their Max HP is 1 and they're only dangerous when the Crystal King spews 'em out. Their defense power is 0. These guys are pretty weak. They'll keep coming, though, until you've finally beaten the Crystal King." This clearly says they are the same enemy, just different "pieces".

In summation, here is a quick and easy list of what this proposal will accomplish:


 * 1) Remove stubs by merging them with their main articles
 * 2) Create more complete articles by piecing together all the information in one place
 * 3) Remove unnecessary division of information

And reasons why:


 * 1) The information is divided. Putting it all in one place creates more complete articles as well as removes stubs
 * 2) Many of these divisions are enemies that are either different rounds of a boss, or just their weapon. Still others are just pieces of the boss, so aren't really a different enemy

If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to use the Comments section below. Hopefully I provided enough information to make a decision. If you agree with this proposal in general, but you don't agree with some of the merges or are wary of the reason why, feel free to comment about it and we can discuss it. This is a big proposal and I don't want anyone Opposing if they don't agree with just one aspect.

Proposer: Redstar Deadline: December 8, 2009, 17:00 Extended: December 15, 2009, 17:00

Support

 * 1) - Per proposal
 * 2) First off, we'll just put their tattles in the same article. Not really any harm in that. Since those enemies are controlled of part of that enemy, they should be in the same article. So per Redstar's proposal.
 * 3) - First of all for all the opposers, they are battled at the same time, asist in the battles, and has too much information linking to the bosses. Also, do we want stubs, or articles? This is too little information for both the bosses and minions to be articles beyond stubs.
 * 4) - This would combine all kinds of useful information into one place - making it easier to access.
 * 5) - Per all, we need this!
 * 6) These are stub-like articles that are just simply part of the bosses. I think it's ridiculous that projectiles or other stuff like that used by bosses have their very own article.
 * 7) - Changed vote. I recently stumbled on Straw, which technically is part of a boss. If this proposal fails, we would have to keep that article. We'd also have to split Exor for consistency (which is literally composed of body parts). Just because an enemy can be targeted and has a tattle, doesn't mean it needs an article.
 * 8) - Per Knife, mainly. Having individual articles for different parts of the same boss/enemy seems unnecessary; it's like devoting an individual article to Corkpedite's body (or the Goomnut tree in the King Goomba battle for that matter, since it can be targeted). I see no reason not to merge them, all it would do is make getting information on the respective boss fights easier since it's all in one place.
 * 9) Lu-igi board at the very least merge the crystals with Culux
 * 10) - Per all, because, some boss battles also have more than one boss, such as the Axem Rangers, it is split into Axem Black, Axem Green, Axem Pink, Axem Red, and Axem Yellow. The Shadow Sirens is split into Beldam, Marilyn, Vivian, and Doopliss (Vivian and Doopliss are debatable). Merging Booster, with his Snifits, would also be possible. Bowletta, should be merged, with Flaret, because, Flaretts (as stated in their own page,) are not even enemies, just items. Bowser??? - Per Proposal. Adding Mario Clone, to Mario, Mallow Clone, to Mallow, Geno Clone, to Geno, Bowser Clone, to Bowser, and Taodstool 2, to Peach. Merging Aero, to Bowyer. Marging Brobot and Brobot L-Type, to Mr. L, because they are both Mr. L's weapons. etc...

Oppose

 * 1) - Different tattles, different battles, different enemy, different article
 * 2) Per Tucayo.
 * 3) - Per Tucayo.
 * 4) - The enemies you have listed there are minions of a greater boss. They are affiliated with him, they take out his orders without complaints, they even may go as far as to sacrifice themselves for him, but ther are not identical with him. We cannot just say that they are the same when there is no solid proof. On the other hand, there is evidence that they are separate beings by the different tattles! Under this circumstances, merging these articles would not be recommendable. This is why I disagree! So per me, and per Tucayo!
 * 5) - Per Tucky and Edo. They shouldn't be merged, and with all these merges, where are we going to draw a line for what needs to be merged and what doesn't?
 * 6) Per Tucayo and Edo.
 * 7) Per Tucayo and Edofenrir.
 * 8) Per Tucayo and Edo.
 * 9) - Per Edo.
 * 10) - Per all.
 * 11) - What can I say? Per Tucayo and Edo.
 * 12) - Admittedly, I'd agree on this proposal without the fact that Tubba's Heart and the other Paper Mario articles are suggested. A solid "no" from me.

Comments
@Tucayo: Lava Piranha before and after becoming covered in fire gets a different Tattle description... Does this make the two different enemies? No, it doesn't, and many other enemies are of the same circumstances. Many of these proposed merges have Tattles that specifically say they are a part of, or the same being as the enemy. The different body parts of Exor aren't divided among different articles, even though they each have different stat-spreads and tattles (Psychopath Thoughts). Likewise, all of these "minions" or extensions of the main boss are fought in the same battle, not different ones. Redstar 16:51, 1 December 2009 (EST)
 * Thanks for noticing, we should split Exor.
 * Uhh, yeah. I don't think anyone's going to support splitting a character just because they have different points of attack. But if this proposal fails, I suppose it would extend to Exor. I suppose next you'll want to make individual pages for the Koopa Bros.. Redstar 16:57, 1 December 2009 (EST)
 * Of course we wouldnt split Exor, that was sarcasm. Its a single enemy.

Quote Edofenrir: "And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal." Well, yes. I go to Lord Crump's page and see a section very vague. If I want the whole story, I have to go to the Magnus Van Grapple page. Why do I need to jump around to get all the information? Magnus Van Grapple is not a character, and is not a boss... Lord Crump piloting it is, so the experience should be told from his perspective, not from an inanimate object. This proposal changes little. All it does is move all the information to one place where it is the most productive. Redstar 17:18, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Just to be absolutely clear, are you proposing that the 8 cases listed above should be merged, or that those and all similar cases should be merged?

BMB: Yea, we dont want stubs, we want artciles, so lets expand those, merging is not a good solution.
 * I'm only proposing this for these 8 specific cases. There may be similar situations, but those won't immediately be affected. They should at least be discussed on their respective pages, though, if someone deems a similar merge necessary.

@FunkyK38: The line will be drawn quite cleanly. Merges will not occur all over, rendering this Wiki a copy of Wikipedia. There will still be articles dealing with a singular topic, hotlinked from main articles. The only reason these are brought up is because they are all aspects of the same enemy, just different "attack points", so to speak. Dividing them is unnecessary and only serves in spreading information which should be read in one place. Redstar 21:58, 1 December 2009 (EST)

After reading over my list of suggested merges, I've decided that Chompy to Tutankoopa and Shy Squad to General Guy could easily be cut. They, to a degree, are individual enemies so are more on-the-fence compared to the other examples. Would anyone change their vote in favor of this proposal if these two were removed? Redstar 22:06, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Wait a sec, I'm not understanding. The Proposals page never had a removal of votes section. Why this proposal have?

Alright, now you are fighting dirty. The rule you are refering to applies only in case of bad-faith or reasons that are so blatant that the wiki cannot support them. This rule is in no way a green card for expelling other people's opinions of their value. Tucayo's vote is valid, and mine was too! Stop this attempts to rig the Proposal! -
 * The section is not simply for bad-faith votes; it is also for votes with no given reason and I'm afraid your vote falls under that category. Your vote was: And next we merge Magnus Van Grapple with Lord Crump? It's the same guy, just surrounded by a load of metal. I disagree. per Tucayo. Where is the reason in that? If you want Magnus Van Grapple merged with Lord Crump or not then say so but do not put it as a vote.
 * I disagree with the removal of Tucayo's vote. Nintendo is horrendously vague about so many things (Bowser vs. Dry Bowser, anyone?), so believing that a sentient heart (or whatever) is a character unto itself is a perfectly valid opinion. Tucayo belives they are separate beings - and so must the people per-ing him - and so believes they deserve separate articles; this is a perfectly valid reason to oppose this proposal. It's not misinformation, it's just one way of looking at things; you got a problem with it, take it up with him, but it's not enough to call a vote over. -

Walkazo: Until further notice there is not removal of removal of support/oppose votes nominations or comments sections. If you wish to have either of these things done then propose it here or on the admin boards but don't just go ahead and do it. I disagree with the removal of Tucayo's vote but there should be no comments placed there at all.
 * I'm sorry redstar, edofenrir's vote is valid as it pers tucayo's vote which is also valid so I will not be able to vote to remove it (thought the rest of the vote is invalid)
 * The abuse of democratic values that were given to the users of this wiki in this Proposal is shocking. This foul display of abuse to gain personal advantages utterly disgusts me. I am disappointed. -

I believe that people should be able to vote about what they think without fear of their votes being rendered, "invalid" and getting removed. The people of this wiki should be free to vote about what they see fit, and neither Tucayo or Edofenrir's votes are invalid.
 * I agree ATM but unfortunately what if I added the vote GOOD IDEA, I SUPORT LULZ!!!!!!!!!!!!? That vote would have necessary removal but, as edofenrir said, this function should be reserved for that function only - that is why I have removed my vote to remove his vote.

In the past, I saw votes saying "Good idea" that were not removed. Why these are being now?
 * The rules were changed
 * There was always a rule against votes like that, but sometimes there was simply no one around to remove them. -

How exactly is Tucayo's vote "not specific"? He's stating the fact that they are different enemies, so they get different articles. Just because he didn't write it in a textbook fashion (i.e. "They are different enemies with different tattles, thus they should have different articles") doesn't make the vote invalid. --
 * For everyone else, I don't understand what the big deal is. The option is there to remove votes, and three people voted. Obviously, two people agreed with me. That is very democratic, and Edo's vote was simply "I disagree". He should have provided a better reason then that, which he now has. As for my response to Stooben, Tucayo's vote is misleading and has two incorrect points. He states that these enemies are different, and fought in different battles. They are not. They are fought only in the same battle, and their tattles say they are part of or actually are the boss. So, he's lying. Saying their Tattles say they're different enemies is wrong. His vote has two wrong points to two valid ones, so the whole thing should be removed and, if he so chooses, re-added with entirely valid reasons. I don't want people to read his vote and think all those points are true when they're really not. If they're really such different enemies, then why do the Crystal Bits tattle say "They are pieces of the Crystal King", Tuff Puffs say "They break off from Huff N. Puff", and Petit Piranha's says "They are flowers that grow off the stem from the Lava Piranha"? Since when are pieces of my body not considering me? They also say that these different Tattles are indicative of different enemies... Well, then we should get to work splitting the different forms of Smithy and Exor, as well as any other boss that has multiple body parts and a different Tattle for each. Clearly, if my hand has a different description from my chest, they're not a part of me and different entities. They should be split for consistency. Redstar 04:45, 5 December 2009 (EST)

I will not remove neither modify my vote, because I know it is perfectly valid. In the worst of the cases, I can just per Edo ;)
 * And yet, Edo's vote is still leaving much to wonder about. What exactly is this "solid evidence"? Likewise, how is your vote "perfectly valid"? You say they're different enemies, and different battles... Why and how? I've offered undeniable evidence supporting the contrary, while your vote simply states something and doesn't back it up. I felt Edo's vote and yours lack merit, and at least for Edo's I got two votes and that of an admin. How exactly is that "rigging" it? If MATEO and MG1 were socks, yes. But they're not. They're two people that agreed, and one person with authority-bound honor... You said that I was close-minded in that chat, but you're the one that has so far refused to offer any explanation for your opinion. I've explained my reasons and revised my proposal many times over, yet I'm the close-minded one? Please, all I'm asking is for a legitimate rebuttal, and not just a disagreement. You're biding your vote for MG1's Koopa proposal below, until the difference between Koopas and Koopa Troopas is defined, so why can't you define the difference between your own reasons? Redstar 11:16, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * For the record, none of the people who voted to remove Edofenrir's vote were administrators. And even if they were, it wouldn't matter, as this does not change the weight of a vote. Also, why did you think you can remove a vote that was supported by a valid reason? The rule said that a vote has to have no merit or be cast in bad faith. You've said yourself that Tucayo's vote had some merit, so it wasn't not eligible for removal under that rule.
 * He basically said that he doesn't want to merge the articles because they deal with different individuals. I got it, many other users got it, I'm sure everyone should be able to get it. Every information you need is up there, so use your eyes and read it! If you still say you don't get it then, then you probably don't want to get it to have a point to remove it. On a side note I recommend you to learn more about democratic values, and how abusing them leads the entire system to collapse. And please, don't type a respond to justify everything (once again). Use this energy to think about what other people told you, and what you attempted to do here. If you are not ready to do that, I have nothing more to say to you. -
 * @Twentytwofiftyseven: I'm fairly sure MG1 is an admin of some sort. And Tucayo's vote holds two invalid points contrasts by two valid ones, so shouldn't that make the entire vote invalid?


 * @Edofenrir: You and Tucayo say they're different individuals, but neither of you have provided a reason as to why while I have provided their Tattle descriptions which explicitly say they are the same individual... I also know as much about democratic values as I need to, and I in no way abused them. How did I? I used a system already in place, I put up a vote, and two people besides myself voted. If I was "abusing" it, then I wouldn't have received anything. You're the one abusing it through your position of sysop and basically changed the rule to negate true democracy and put the power to remove votes only in the hands of sysops. If sysops are voting, and sysops have votes that should be removed, then how is it democratic if no one can vote? It can only be "discussed" now... And after the discussion, then what? Is there a private vote for only sysops? I don't understand how that is any more democratic than what we already had, but you claim was somehow "rigging". Redstar 12:39, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Your comment just showed me that you don't care about what other people tell you. I see no point in going on, since you don't even want to reconsider. I'm not that eager to waste my time talking to someone who won't listen. Good afternoon. -

Redstar: I am not an admin of any sort unless you mean on userpedia and could we please, as Edo said, drop this subject? The admins are coming out with an advancement on rule #4 and we just have to trust them on that; wait a couple days until the rule has come out and then propose it.
 * Edo, I don't even know what you're talking about. You keep accusing me of all these things and getting heated over a simple proposal. You're the one that's being rude and not listening... I mean, just look at the edit history. You say "Eat it" as the summary for editing your vote. Is that any way for a sysop to behave? You're supposed to be professional and courteous, yet you rudely attack me and accuse me of all these things. I'm just trying to help improve the wiki in ways I believe would be good. MG1, sorry, I thought you were one. On Bulbapedia, welcome templates are automated and any of that stuff is only handled by admins. Redstar 12:59, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Well, as admin it is my duty to be impartial, and that's why I didn't give you a warning for nominating my vote to be partially removed (which is btw the same as proposing to rewrite my vote, which is a heavy violation the rules). As a human being it is my right to be pissed to have my vote and the vote of a friend of mine assassinated by dubious usage of rule no. 4. I also have to ask you to quote correctly. I said "Eat this" in a joking way, when I rewrote my vote. And now, as MG1 said, this discussion should be ended. I suggest you to re-read what I said, what Walkazo said, and what Stooben Rooben said at your talk page. -

Redstar: as an administrator, i order you to drop this. If you continue this you will get a warning. Thanks and have a nice day.
 * You're ordering me to drop something that happened six hours ago? >_> Redstar 21:38, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Yes, I AM.
 * Why is that even necessary? I've been here for the entirety of those six hours, so it should be obvious it was already discontinued. Redstar 21:46, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Because there is no reason i could know you were here all that time.
 * The Recent changes page says which users are currently online. I'm currently online, and have been for six hours. Six hours have passed since the last comment on this page. Quite obviously, I had no intention of responding. Redstar 21:52, 5 December 2009 (EST)
 * Just a little pointer for everyone before this discussion is ended for good: The user list at the recent changes sometimes acts buggy and does not always acurately display who is online at that time. It's not the best source. -

@luigi-board: Would you mind expanding your reason a little? You're either entirely for it, or entirely against. Any modifications should be handled in the Comments, which I can consider for modifying the proposal. Redstar 15:39, 7 December 2009 (EST)


 * Sheesh you guys like to argue with each other! Maybe we should put a limit on how long a proposals comments section should be, since someone is making them way longer than they should be. All this about whose vote is good or not. Half the comments aren't even for the said proposal!

You can't modify a proposal that's more than 3 days old.
 * Alright, thanks for telling me.
 * And @ WaluigiGuy: I appreciate your support, but your suggestions are a little too extreme, in my opinion. Some of those should be merged, but to different articles, I think. If this passes, we'll at least discuss some of those before doing anything about them, okay? Until then, can I ask you to make your reason more in line with accepting the examples already given? I don't feel too comfortable being supported if it directly extends to other articles. Redstar 21:11, 7 December 2009 (EST)

Would anyone be willing to change their vote in favor of this proposal if I were to remove Tubba Blubba's Heart and Bowser??? from this list? Please realize these are only examples, so they're not immediately meant to be put into action if the proposal were to pass anyways. They're only meant to give an impression of what I meant this proposal to accomplish, though I now feel the two above don't meet that standard so I'm willing to cut them. For Edo specifically, this protects from his fear of Magnus Von Grapple and similar being merged. Redstar 22:25, 9 December 2009 (EST)
 * According to proposal rules you are not allowed to edit/delete a proposal after three days of proposing it...just sayin'
 * Yes, but I didn't modify the proposal. That was a list of examples. The proposal itself is intact, while those examples were never meant to be affected by the proposal. They were just there to illustrate what sort of articles the proposal would affect. I realized that the two I just removed don't follow the standard of what I'd intended for the proposal, so I cut them. Nothing has changed, really. Redstar
 * I wonder if people realize they could just make User:Username/Proposal and then type onto the page and then they will be able to edit the proposal at any given time. I realize that you did not change the proposal, I'm just stating the rules as they are listed. Listen to them or not - even if you have ultimate reasoning - I will still say the rule. I'm not trying to challenge you or the proposal in any way, I'm just saying it how it is.
 * I'm not exactly sure what either of those would do. Sorry for my ignorance of what you're explaining... As for my proposal, the proposal and what it intends to do hasn't been changed at all, only some of the examples accompanying it that contradicted the proposal. If a sysop disagrees, they can re-add them with an explanation why.

Redstar: When you type the name of a user space with – then the content of that page is copied onto the page you're editing.
 * I don't really see the use in that. Redstar
 * It's how everyone uses their signatures around here (that or )
 * It's simply easier to type out four tildes than to write that every single time. Redstar
 * Yeah, but if everyone has signatures, the backgrounds and images make it hard for people with older computers to load the page, especially if the sigs aren't coded properly. An extra second of typing one's signature means mintues less of loading time for many other people, so in the grand scheme of things, it's actually easier to write the whole thing out every single time. -

Redstar: If you want further information, my talk page is open. Anyhow, back to the proposal - would anybody change their vote now that Redstar has removed Tubba Blubba's Heart and Bowser?
 * Nope. I know it's just a suggestion, Redstar, but I still am opposed to the wide scope of possibly effected articles. I think this should be done on an article by article basis.

What's a Koopa?
I think that the pages Koopa and Koopa Troopa should be merged together because, frankly, what on earth is a Koopa? The page lists all of the sub-species of Koopa Troopas and that could be done on the page Koopa Troopa or not done at all because it is not necessary. When I think of Koopa, I think of turtle enemy-thing in Mario but this page does not describe the turtle-enemy thing, it describes its sub-species and all of those subspecies descriptions are one sentence long with ! I think that Koopa=Koopa Troopa and I'm sure you will agree.

Proposer: Deadline: Friday December 11th, 2009 (8:00 EST)

Merge

 * 1) - Per above
 * 2) marioguy has made a good point also, the "koopa" article is pointless, simply pointless, because "Koopa" is just another name for Koopa Troopa, merge "koopa" into Koopa Troopa because Koopa Troopa is a more common name than "Koopa" and a new section would fit nicely in the Koopa Troopa page.

No Merge

 * 1) - No. Koopa is not the same as Koopa Troopa. Koopas are species, while Koopa Troopas are sub-species.
 * 2) The Koopa article is information on other Koopas (Hammer Bros., Dry Bones, Paratroopas) and the Koopa Troopa article is about a type of Koopa, Koopa Troopa. Look over those articles again, they are about two different things.
 * 3) - Having a catch-all Koopa page is good, since Bowser and Lakitus aren't anything like Koops or KP Koopas, but there should still be a separate "Koopa Troopa" page for the species. Saying the "Troopa" just refers to them being soldiers is just splitting hairs - are all Hammer Bros. brothers? Unlike Bowser's unnamed species, at least the little guys have a title that has been applied to their kin and no one else - unlike "Koopa" which has many meanings - and ignoring that would be foolhardy in the face of all the other organization issues Nintendo forces upon us (like Bowser's species).
 * 4) - Per Walkazo. It'd make more sense in this case (to me, anyway) to leave Koopa Troopa at it's current location, than move it to Koopa and move the current Koopa article to . Besides, "Koopas" has been used several times in Mario games to indicate the species of Koopa. (And what is "Koopas" but the plural form of "Koopa"?)
 * 5) - Per Walkazo, and Stooben Rooben.  pretty much sums up how all the arguments as well.
 * 6) - Per Stooby boy and Walka girl.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Merge unnecessary. Simply re-write the Koopa article to more clearly describe the Koopa group, rather than identifying them (incorrectly) as a species.
 * 9) - When I think koopa, I think of a koopa troopa, but it is actually the species.
 * Per all.

Comments
I was having a discussion on a similar topic just yesterday, concerning the Hammer Bros. I think the entire thing is sort of speculative since the page amounts to more than a cherry-picked list of various turtle-like enemies, entirely excluding other candidates. If it was truly extensive, it would list a lot more. But by the same token, it'd be speculation because who knows what a "Koopa" really is? The manual says "Koopa tribe", but the term "American" covers a lot of different races and ethnicities. Whether they meant "Koopa race" or "Koopa social-group", who knows. I feel a complete overhaul of the way we classify the enemies is in order. I really don't feel Boomerang Bro., Sumo Bro., Fire Bro., etc. should be considered "sub-species" of Hammer Bro. Related (as in similar, not blood-related) enemies, yes, but the current terms really deliver inaccurate connotations. Care to make this proposal a bit more general, MG1? If so, I'd be happy to support. Redstar
 * Reversinator: Aren't enemies species as well? Redstar: It's easy, Koopa and Koopa Troopa are the same thing. Koopa is like an expanded ==Sections== section for Koopa Troopa.
 * ...I guess so... Fine, I'll change my vote.

Super Mario World indeed lists Koopa Troopas simply as "Koopas" in the credits, which would suggest that only those are called "Koopas" and the enemies that aren't directly related to the Troopa are not. I don't think the Koopa article can be merged with Koopa Troopa like that however, since the majority of species listed in it are, in fact, quite clearly not Koopa Troopas. What it would need is a title change, or possibly a complete removal in favour of the Koopa Troop article.--vellidragon
 * As I said, cut the speculatory-fat and rename it "Koopa tribe" (as you were great to bring up). I'm sure there would still be speculation involved, but far less. The name issue needs to be resolved the two articles' subjects re-defined, anyways. Redstar
 * Will someone please explain to me What a Koopa is? This is why I named the proposal what I named it, because I have no idea what a koopa is. As far as I know, Koopas don't exist and are just another name used for Koopa Troopa. Whether they're listed as Koopas or Koopa Troopas in the credits, they're still the same thing and that thing can be renamed, like redstar said, after we figure out what they are.
 * I believe "Koopa", as suggested by the "Koopa tribe", is meant to encompass all the various turtle-races into a singular group. (Though, as far as we know, Piranha Plants could be Koopas as well under the "tribe") Koopa Troopas are just the catch-all, generic Koopa, which is why they can be called just Koopas. (Like in many sci-fi works, humans are so common that they're the "standard" in judging appearance and so on). I always just took the term Troopa, and thought it meant Koopa Troopas were "troopers"... Perhaps it's just a title? They're Koopas, unless they're a member of the Koopa Troop, in which case they're "Troopas". Does that make sense? Redstar
 * As far as I'm aware, "Koopa" in the Japanese games has always been no more than a name; that of Bowser, to be exact. The mention of a "Koopa tribe" and names like "Koopa Troopa" are afaik exclusive to the English localisation (Koopa Troopas for instance are named Noko-Noko in Japan, Koopa Paratroopas are Pata-Pata), and I don't think it has ever been officially stated what a "Koopa" would be according to the translators. The closest information we can get is the Koopa Troopas being referred to as Koopas in SMW's ending, which as Redstar pointed out may just as well mean they are the most common members of a Koopa tribe (which would include other sub-species as well) as it may indicate that Koopa and Koopa Troopa refer to the same thing. No real clarity seems to come from official sources.--vellidragon

Vellidragon: That's what Koopa (disambiguation) and are for :P Redstar: All of that goes under Koopa Troop.
 * The Koopa Troop is the personal army of Bowser's (hence the "Troopa" part applied to Koopas that fight for him... Not that no Koopa that isn't sided with him has the Troopa part). The Koopa tribe would be a more broad grouping covering all Koopas regardless of political alignment. Redstar
 * I agree with you on that part but we are straying off topic here, whether Koopa Tribe should be created or not is a topic for later discussion, right now we're talking about merging two articles together and I think we should get back to that.
 * King Bean: Can you elaborate on that?

Okay, how about this: Koopa is the species name for the generic-turtle enemies in the game, namely "Koopa Troopas". "Troopa", however, is a job title or position. Koopa Troopas are members of the Koopa Troop, making them troopers. This is supported by the Koopa Paratroopas, who take their name from paratroopers, or parachuting soldiers. This suggests that normal, wingless "Troopas" are also soldiers... Also take into account the RPG games, where we get most of our information. Enemy Koopa Troopas are specifically said to be working for Bowser. Compare this to Kent C. Koopa, an enemy that works alone, and note that his Tattle information calls him simply a "Koopa". No "Troopa" part. All the non-enemy Koopas in Koopa Village and, later, in Petalburg, are simply called Koopas. It seems highly likely that the difference is Koopa is species, and Troopa is title/position, much like the various "Bros." enemies carry the weapon or technique they use as a sort of job position-title. Redstar
 * Fawfulfury: I have read the articles over again, again and again and, whether you like it or not, Koopas and Koopa Troopas are the same thing; just because the article is a list of different types of the sub-species of Koopa Troopas doesn't make it a valid article in the slightest. I could very well put under almost every single one of those sections! The article has many tiny sections displaying stuff that, if it should be here at all, should be under . If you still believe in your cause; what's a koopa? I'll tell you what it is, it's a Koopa Troopa; that article was obviously made by someone who didn't know we had an article on Koopa Troopas already.
 * What makes that so "obvious"? I'd rather say the article was made by someone who believed "Koopa" to be a collective term for all the turtle-like enemies in the Mario games, which may or may not be true, since the games are rather vague on that.--vellidragon
 * Walkazo: Would you consent to having these articles merged but a "List of Koopa Troopa Subspecies" made? Because I think most people that type in "Koopa" are looking for a Koopa Troopa and not a list of their subspecies. We could add the list of subspecies to Koopa (disambiguation).
 * No, because calling anything a "subspecies" is pure speculation: we can justify calling things like Chargin' Chucks "species" on the Koopa page because of their unique biology, but that's not the case with things like KP Koopas, Dark Koopas, Shady Koopas, Mask Koopas, here for why this is the case; it's a long essay, but I tried to make it interesting for all you non-biologists.) Why should we create a speculatively titled List page when the Koopa page is a perfectly good platform to list not only the types of Koopa Troopas, but of all Koopas, which, unlike the list-template, hasn't been done yet? The same goes for adding a list to the disambiguation page. There's a link to Koopa Troopa in the first paragraph of the general Koopa page, as well as a link to the disambiguation page, and making one extra click of the mouse is not going to inconvenience anyone looking for the Troopas. It might even teach them something about Koopas in general if they choose to read the Koopas page first - especially if we clean it up a bit. The potential value of an annotated list of Koopa species far outweighs the benefits of saving that space with a merge and using templates and categories to list things instead; my reasons why are included in the essay I linked to above (primarily in the last two paragraphs), which also has an example of what the page could look like with a little expansion. -

Can we at least establish that Koopa is not a species and that Bowser's article should not be classified as having the species Koopa? That is the real reason I made this proposal anyways...
 * Well, the Koopa page has been re-written and expanded a bit. "Koopa" is no longer presented as a species. Redstar
 * It's not a species. It is (IMO) a fan-made subject used to describe the generic creatures carrying shells on their backs. I have no idea why we have someone categorized as one but I plan to change that.
 * I didn't say they were a species.
 * @KingBean: Koopa Troopas aren't sub-species. They're simply Koopas working as soldiers (troopers) for Bowser. This is supported by the Paper Mario Tattle descriptions.
 * @Walkazo: It's not splitting hairs, it's fact. And none of the Bros. enemies are brothers; it's a title. The comparison to Troopas is moot. Redstar
 * No, "Troopas" is as meaningless as "Bros." in these respects, so the comparison is valid. As an example, I give you Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: both Dark Koopas and KP Koopas are described as "Koopa Troopas" in their tattles, yet one is found exclusively in the Pit of 100 Trials and the other is only encountered in the Glitz Pit, so they're hardly soldiers of the Koopa Troop. -
 * By the same token, Kent C. Koopa (an enemy not working for Bowser) is described by his Tattle description to be the "Biggest Koopa ever". The Troopa-nomer is absent. So, really, both our arguments are supported and it's only localization and Nintendo that make it vague. Redstar

Allow Support Votes to be Removed on Nomination Pages?
For this proposal, I think that users should be able to vote for the removal of support votes on FA nomination pages. I mean, we can vote to remove oppose votes, but what about support votes! Users might support articles to become featured because they like that certain character that was nominated or they might not make a good reason on why they supported. Other users should have the right to choose on to delete those or not.

So, here's how it would go: Users can vote on if they want to remove a support votes or not. If three users, including an admin, support for the removal of that vote, we can delete it. Good, right?

Proposer: Deadline: Wednesday, Dec. 16, 2009 (5:00 EST)

Be able to remove support votes

 * 1) Per above.
 * 2) - I suppose we must trust our sysops (though I don't know why it doesn't extend to all admins) to make the right decision in the end as that is why they were promoted, per Fawful Phew Ree65.
 * 3) Yes. All voters should provide at least one reason why they feel something is worth supporting or opposing. In fact, natter relating to anything but reasons "why" should be forbidden altogether. Keep votes professional.
 * 4) I still see some supports that sound a lot like fan votes, but maybe the SYSOPs are little slow in deleting fan votes. Some other support votes sound like fan votes but with the word "article" instead of the character's name in it.
 * 5) I've seen a lot of support votes that say "oh i love *insert character here*!" when we're supposed to give a good reason.

Leave as is

 * 1) - I think our current policy is fine.
 * 2) - Per Tucayo. Besides, the oppose votes are really what keep a page from getting features, not support votes.
 * I do NOT think our current policy is fine, since the proposal has passed that allowed admins to remove support votes. So of course I don't agree with this proposal either. I explained a thousand of times why removing support votes is pointless, and I'm tired of doing it again and again. Please read my reasons here. In short: Support votes do no harm, and no, they should NOT be treated the same as oppose votes, since they serve a totally different purpose. Opposers need to state what is wrong about an article, but supporters CANNOT state what is "good" about an article without reciting the FA requirements, which would be pointless and redundant.
 * 1) -- I can't think of any reason an admin would ever agree to remove a support, but still, the idea behind this proposal is pointless. Oppose votes are really the only ones that matter. Per Time Q.

Comments
Well, we already have that rule that the most blatantly annoying votes (aka fan votes) can be removed from the support section. I cannot think of another kind of vote that would be useless enough to justify its removal. I don't think this rule change is necessary, since support votes are basically useless after the nomination got five of them. Can you provide an example of a vote you'd like to remove? -

Well, supports shouldn't be moved for fan votes only. When people oppose and just say something like "this is a terrible article" with no reason why, people can vote to remove that, but if someone supports saying something like "this is a great article!" why can't users vote to remove that? All votes that don't give a reason on why they supported and think the article is great really should be removed...

@Marioguy1: By all admins, you're saying sysops and patrollers, right? I'll change that I guess. I really want this to be like removing oppose votes.

Uh, you know people this days may load up the support with fan votes and we may get into a huge mess just trying to remove one at a time. But I do agree that "this article is good" isn't enough. In that case, some people may think many grammar errors are ok, but others think it is horrible. Fawful: Yes, that is what I mean - Admins=Sysop, Patroller, Bcrat, that other rank...
 * @MG1 - Whether or not all ranks of admins can have the same privilages seems to be outside the power of proposals, so I'd take that up elsewhere.
 * @Stooben - Just because an article is nominated doesn't mean it should be featured just because. Removal of oppose votes protects an article from not being featured for baseless reasons, but what if the article is supported for baseless reasons and doesn't deserve to be featured? We need to protect the honor of what a featured article means just as much as the process of getting to it. If the article truly deserves it, then a removal of supports privilege won't change anything. Redstar 01:19, 10 December 2009 (EST)
 * I don't know if you are used to the wiki's FA nomination system rules yet, so I better explain them. Unlike the Proposal page, the ratio of support and opposal votes actually doesn't matter, they don't affect each other. Support votes have only any impact on the nomination as long as there are less than five. If the amount of support votes meets five, the nomination becomes valid and the article will be featured after a set amount of time. However, if someone opposes the nomination, the whole process becomes stalled. The article will then not be featured until the pointed-out flaws are rectified. The opposal vote is then removed. Because of this, one single opposal vote is able to outnumber all given support votes, and this is why opposal votes are watched much more strictly than support votes, or at least that's how I was told about it. We had a Proposal about removing fan votes some time ago and I am glad it passed, but I think this is as far as we can go... -

I vote for the removal of Reversinator's vote since unlike what he says, supporters of an FA nomination are NOT supposed to give reasons for their vote.
 * Ok, I dont want another discussion, but TimeQ, if they do not give any reason at all they will be removed...
 * Well, under the current rules that were enforced by the proposal I linked above, any admin can arbitrarily remove votes they don't like (well, in the wording of the proposal, those that "do anything but help", but who is to judge what falls under that description?). There is NO rule stating that every support vote needs to have a "good reason", as Reversinator puts it.
 * Any support vote should at least refer to the article it supports. I think this doesn't ask for too much. And now let's please end this discussion. It was started one time too often. -
 * I certainly won't end the discussion, as we're here to do just that: discuss the matter.

Ok, I dont plan to argue again :)You can make a proposal to revert that, or even veto it...

Make a Limit for the Length of Comments on this page
Okay, I know I'm not the only one who's noticed this, but I'm going to be the one to do something about it. The proposal comments have gotten ridiculous. Comments aren't supposed to be these insanely long paragraphs that argue with what the other users may say. It takes a long time to scroll down all the comments, and then it's hard to even find where one proposal starts and one ends (At least that's the impression I get)! And it's just missing the point when half the comments in the section are not even about the said proposal! Here's what I want to do about it:
 * I'm not trying to silence other users who have a short and sweet opinion, but I want the users who drag it out too much to STOP. Comments should not be whole paragraphs like the ones above. I want to reduce the length to, let's say, 4 to 6 sentences.
 * Comments that have nothing to do with the proposal should be deleted. This includes arguments about deleting votes. That stuff should be done on Talk Pages.

Proposer: Deadline: Monday, Dec. 14, 2009 (8:00 EST)

Shorten Comments

 * 1) -Per me above.
 * 2) I completely agree with Funky!!! Removing votes comments belong on talk pages! The comments section should only be for questions and answers, and just stuff that won't make huge conversations/arguments.
 * 3) I think those ridiculously long comments that act like walls of text should get removed. If a user wants to make a point, he/she should at least make it short, but clear. I also dislike when comments take up like, half the proposal page.
 * 4) "I think those ridiculously long comments that act like walls of text should get removed." - This says all. :P
 * 5) - Yes, some users can write what they thing, and forget. They literally can be writing a short novel for all we know about a thought that have. If we want to make it long, do it on the proposer's talk page or this talk page (that is why we have it!).

Leave as is

 * Sorry, but this proposal is ridiculous. If there's much to discuss about a proposal, you can't just suppress that. If certain users tend to write overly long and off-topic comments, kindly tell them. But a general rule is really pointless.
 * 1) - There are plenty of good reasons why long, wordy debates can be held in the Comments sections, and they often lead to improvements of the original proposal, better understanding of ideas, and more developments down the road. As Time Q already explained, Users (and especially Administrators, who are charged with policing this and any other discussion pages) already have the right to ask for off-topic or inflammatory discussions to be taken elsewhere or ended all together, so this proposal would only add restrictions to the meaningful comments.
 * 2) As Time Q and Walkazo have already explained, this proposal is point less because long comments can explain more than 4 to 6 sentences could while being grammatically correct.
 * 3) I won't like this proposal to pass because sometimes long comments are useful and necessary. I don't like long meaningless comments though, so until the proposer changes the wording (such as "remove unnecessary long comments"), I am opposing this.
 * 4) - Fraid I'm gonna have to agree. No limiting comments as some comments must be long to get a user's point across if they are trying to point something out. We already have people who think we're too strict thanks to the no-sig policy. Imagine what they say if we limit the amount of sentences you can add to the page! Per Thyme Que.
 * 5) - I don't necessarily feel things should be "left as is", but I do oppose this proposal. An alternative should be considered.
 * 6) -- Per Time Q. Ridiculous proposal.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) - Per Time Q and Walkazo.
 * 9) - I'm not an user who likes to make speeches on discussions, but I know that limiting an user's arguments is unfair and incorrect. As for out-of-topic comments on proposals, any user can stop these discussions by sending an advice on them, avoiding confusions for other readers and conflicts out of place.
 * 10) - Per Coincollector

Comments
Hmm... I don't know if limiting the comments to four to six sentences is the right solution... Though I fully agree with you that the comment sections have gotten very long and hard to overlook. I will think about this for a while. -
 * Well, I suppose I could change that to "not making it a huge arguement" like FF65 said above... If enough users feel that way I can change it.
 * I don't think a limit is necessary, since sometimes length is necessary to elaborate on a point. I would approve moving all Comments to respective sections on the Talk page, or a specific "MarioWiki: Proposals/Comments" page, however. Redstar 21:13, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I always thought that separate sub-pages were a good idea. I brought it up on the talk page a long time ago, but I guess it fell through.

How about a show/hide tag? Or a scrollbox?


 * I don't think so on the show/hide tag (reason being is that I mysteriously see all the answers on the 'Shroom and it says click here to show answers. I think it's something to do with my extension), but I think it should be like on the Archives section where all proposals are on scrollboxes.

Imposing character limits on comments just seems to go too far. My idea for a /Comments page work, but a show/hide tag, as suggested by Tucayo, is quick and easy as well. Redstar 10:28, 8 December 2009 (EST)

The administrative staff will probably make a change to the proposal organization, so this proposal probably isn't necessary.