MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18



Different Version Characters
SUPPORT 17-02

In the Mario film and also in the Mario cartoons, there are versions of characters that are not necessarily the same characters from the character's real media. Such as:
 * The princess in the Mario film basically has all of the qualities Peach would have with a few exceptions including her name.
 * Same goes with the koopa cousins in the film, neither are actually their corresponding counterparts.
 * The infant form of the princess in the film is hardly BABY Daisy in video games.
 * The infant forms of Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, and Bowser are not the same as the Baby characters from video-games.

This proposal is to make it so that in the case of characters from the film, we create separate articles for the character that explains them for the film but also makes note of the connections to video game characters.

It is also to make it so that just because in some previous media there has been an infant form of a character, does not mean that it is the Baby form of the character from video-games. Infant Princess Daisy from film =/= Baby Daisy from videogames.

If there's any confusion, ask. This proposal was made from ides of numerous users on the comments of previous confusion from the original proposal made by Redstar.

{{scroll box|content= Proposer: FD09 Deadline: 1 December 2009, 17:00

Support

 * 1) FD09 - Per other users suggestions and ideas. above
 * 2) - Results in article clean-up by creating more specialized articles. The better organization sounds good to me.
 * 3) - Per what is proposed there.
 * 4) - Per FD09.
 * 5) I've thought a lot about this and as we have a proven example that supports greatly the issue, I consider that would work.
 * 6) - Per all (including me, since, for the record, I was one of the users who contributed the helpful ideas in the first proposal's comments, which were based on the example Coincollector mentioned). Speculation is bad, so when in doubt, split 'em out.
 * 7) - Defininte yes. Split them. The majority "main characters" from videogame installments should have articles all to themselves. This needs to get done, fast.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all. Who says the film King Koopa and the game Bowser are the same person? Respectively, the one is a human and the other a Koopa. The Goomba's are in that film big, broad human-like monsters, while the original Goomba is a tiny living brown mushroom, which is generally weaker than the film Goomba's. And the film Toad is also human, while the game Toad represents his own species with the same name. And so on.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per All,Excellent Proposal,I was thinking in that.
 * 12) I am Zero! Yes it's a good idea to split the articles, plus the Bowser article looks out of place with his alternate human version. Zero signing out.
 * 13) - Per all!!!
 * 14) - Per all! We will need a disambiguation page though.
 * 15) - I spent a good long while thinking about this. Per all.
 * 16) Per all.
 * 17) SPLIT THEM. I don't even consider the movie part of the Mario series because it's so different and wacko.

Oppose

 * 1) Seems like a seperation of media appearences to me, which is against our current policies.
 * 2) Per SMB.

Comments
This is the result I originally had in mind, but failed to voice that proposal in a clear way. Under this new proposal I think special attention can be paid to both the film characters and their video game-counterparts in an equal way, satisfying all parties and make for a much more informative encyclopedia. Redstar 17:39, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * Good to hear it. Now don't forget to add some reasoning next to your vote. If you don't explain your vote or say something like per (another username who voted) your vote is liable to be removed by a sysop that deems it incomplete. FD09
 * I neither support nor oppose. I simply think we shouldn't really consider that film as canon, but anyway, I dont want a canonincity discussion.
 * When it comes to the Mario series, there's no canon at all. (or if you must have one, it's very loose and filled with lots of parallels and alternates) This proposed change won't in any way cause the film's interpretations of the game to infringe on the articles there already are, but help specialize them into distinct articles that stand more productive on their own. Currently, there's difficulty in knowing where and how to define the film characters to their (speculative) video game counterparts. This side-steps most or all of the issue entirely. Redstar 21:05, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure Shigeru Miyamoto said there is no Mario canon, but even if he didn't, it's not our place to decide what's true and what isn't. We merely provide as many facts as we can with as little speculation as possible, which is why this proposal is good: in a way, it's wrong to assume things like Koopa's cousin Iggy and Bowser's son Iggy are the same person because of their shared name and status as members of the Koopa family, given how different they are in so many other ways. It's better to state both possibilities: that they're the same, but also that they could be different. -
 * My comment explicitly said there's no canon and pointed out the speculative nature of assuming which video game character may or may not be a counterpart to the film characters... So are you "correcting" me, or expanding on what I already said? Redstar 22:24, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * Expanding on what you said. Canonicity gets so muddled, I've found it's better to be really windy about it right off the bat before confusion and arguments can sprout up. -

FD09: Where do you plan to put the info about the infant characters from the cartoons?
 * Where it belongs. On the episode page, the cartoons page, the characters page. Just where it fits the most. FD09
 * Do you mean on the pages of the "adult" characters or the respective Baby pages?
 * Well I'm pretty sure it was covered that the info would be getting removed from the actual babie's pages so if it fit, the actual adults pages, but of course just because the information exists doesn't make it necessary to put on the character page in the case of a cartoon episode. I believe it would more than likely already be covered on the episode page so..FD09
 * The issue at hand is that many media counterparts are assumed to be the same character, when this is oftentimes a stretch. While Bowser has often always been Bowser throughout various media, despite his divergant appearance, other characters, such as the film counterparts, are composite of several video-game characters or are completely new and only share a name. This makes it difficult to know where exactly to put the information. New, specialized articles, would resolve this confusion while the main character articles would benefit more easily by having "Spike (enemy) ... Trivia: A character appears in the film sharing the same name, though the two aren't necessarily meant to be the same."


 * By the same token, some characters are often assumed to be counterparts without confusion, but this leap is based on false logic. The infants of Mario, Luigi, and Daisy (film) aren't the same as the Baby characters because those characters were introduced much later, have distinct personalities, and distinct roles. While a separate article could be made, for example, baby Rugrats and teen Rugrats (since they're distinct characters), the Star Wars wiki doesn't make a separate article for Anakin compared to Darth Vader. It's simply a difference in age, not character. These examples are best suited for the respective media pages. Redstar 20:47, 26 November 2009 (EST)
 * If I understand what you are saying here (and please correct me if I am wrong) in "The infants of Mario, Luigi, and Daisy (film) aren't the same as the Baby characters because those characters were introduced much later, have distinct personalities, and distinct roles" is that they are not the same because of the time and media of their appearance. Since Mario and Luigi appeared in the movie (and there can obviously be no arguement about that), and their baby forms appear, it is safe to say that they are the same character, no? And what are we going to do about the Super Mario Bros. Super Show! appearances for Baby Mario? Our coverage policy clearly states that there is no distinct seperation of media: Even if these characters appeared in the media before a video game, we still have that content in the article.
 * Hm, I don't see that much of sepparating medias here. I think the point of the Proposal is, that Baby Mario/Luigi/Blah are distinct characters that even go by those names. The infant forms in the movie/shows never expicitly get called "Baby Mario/Luigi/Thingaling" and thus are not to be confused with the distinct characters. Imagine there would be an appearance where Luigi gets hypnotized. Would we automatically merge that info with the Mr. L article? I highly doubt we would do. -

Super Mario Bros.: I don't even see how you see logic in that oppose since it's not about separating media as it is clarifying on specific character's details. Although the information will be getting removed from the babie's page sit is still considered a part of the "actual" character's history. It's not separation of media, it's separation of characters.FD09
 * We would still be making an assumption by splitting the articles. We would be implying that they are not the same character, and that the creators of the movie did not intend it to be. That said, if we have those articles split, and we put main tags on the original articles, that could be considered speculation because we are linking two (by our standards if the proposal passes) unlinked characters as possibly being one, therefore creating speculation. You also mention making a different article for the Princess in the movie. That would be separation based on media, and so is that article that Coincollector pointed out. Who are we to assume that they are not based on the characters in the video games? The Peach in the Super Mario Bros.: Super Show! has red/orange hair color. Does that mean we are going to split it because of the way she looks? No. They named her Princess Daisy; and it was an official Nintendo-approved film. Who are we to go change it all based on what they made her look like?
 * Merging the baby appearances into the adult article, on the same token, would just be pointless. Even if it is not a set in stone character at the time, Baby Mario is still the baby form of Mario. If Baby Mario and Mario are considered to really be separate characters, then we need to split the history sections that deal with the babies in the Mario, Luigi, Peach, and other articles, since they are clearly separate characters. That is my point of view, and I hope you understand.
 * Alright so by that logic either way you look at it you are speculating. The way you are phrasing this is just a sneaky way to make it look like we are creating speculation when either way whether you consider them the same character or not you are speculating. No, just because the film was Nintendo approved does not make it set in stone because whether you like it or not to some extent there is a large enough difference between certain Mario media outlets that this is something we have to look into rather then accept as fact. You are speculating the baby characters from the cartoons are the same as the baby characters from the video game because whether you like it or not they are not the same therefore are being examined and as you can see agreed upon to be different. This is not breaking policy anymore than it already is by being the way it is. And I doubt the information will be getting on the actual characters pages even as it is not mentionable especially not with the way the character's pages are organised right now. It's already thoroughly covered on the episode page so it's not getting removed from the wiki soo.. Don't know what else to tell ya, guy. Yes it is your OPINION. And here opinion is majority rule. Clearly you are in the wrong.FD09
 * I love how you say I am so wrong. There are many things that the majority has wanted that hasn't been right. Now, while I will refrain on calling your proposal biased towards your wanting to separate media so much, I will say that we should follow the way that is more in accordance with our rules. Either way, we are making speculation, but what ultimately matters is which side would add more speculation. The way I see it, these characters were given names by the creators. In example, we cannot just go and say that the Bowser from the movie is not Bowser. Although he did not look like Bowser, that is who he is based on. Whether you like it or not, we have been given their names and their characters are in the movie. Princess Daisy, although she may look, act, and appear to be Peach, was given the name Daisy. One major plotline that would support this is that Daisy goes out with Luigi, and although this may be because the writers didn't want to make it look like a creepy old dude going out with a young girl (don't worry Walkazo, I'm not stealing this from you. I'm borrowing the saying), but Nintendo itself added the idea of a possible romance between Luigi and Daisy. It is horrendous to go and say that Daisy could be the Daisy in the movie, when we are told it is Daisy. Let me finish with a quote: "Don't know what else to tell ya, guy. Yes it is your OPINION. And here opinion is majority rule. Clearly you are in the wrong."
 * "Don't know what else to tell ya, guy. Yes it is your OPINION. And here opinion is majority rule. Clearly you are in the wrong". Hey look, I'm doing it too! ...? I don't really need to discuss it with you considering your opinion is, as they say, set in stone. FD09

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Merge Traps and Obstacles pages to super-article
NO MERGE 1-5

These pages are usually quite small and would be better suited if merged to a super-article. This would allow them to be better located as well as cut down on needless articles covering every minor aspect of the games.

{{scroll box|content=Proposer: Redstar Deadline: December 1, 2009, 17:00

Support

 * 1) Proposer

Oppose

 * 1) - That's really unnecessary. Not ALL traps-and-obstacles articles are one-sentence long. If they had that size would be rapidly deleted cuz Mariowiki doesn't approve that. Second point, if we have short articles - more than one sentence long, sure, we just add they are stubs and soon these pages can receive more information by a good contributor.
 * Per Coincollector.
 * 1) - Per the collector of shiny round metal pieces.
 * 2) Whoa no way! That would be too big of an article which = more time to load. Gee... that would be an ULTRA article and would be very cluttered too! And per Coincollector.
 * 3) - Per Edofenrir.

Comments
I fixed up the coding, remember to use the format ===<proposal=== when making a proposal.
 * Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of coding I need to learn. I joined up and made some edits over a year ago, so I'm trying to jump into it again now. Thanks for the advice. Redstar 17:35, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * Let me get this straight: You want to merge all traps and obstacles articles from everywhere into one single article? - 18:01, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * Yes. Why do we need an article explaining what a "spike" is and how it is bad for the player? This is repeated ad infinitum, ad nauseum with many other articles. A single article saying "Obstacles and traps are (or a separate article for the two mechanics) game mechanics that hinder the player, etc." then a list of the different traps. It's cleaner, more organized, and doesn't seem to be detrimental to anyone unless they like reading one sentence-articles on things that make much more sense in a general page. Redstar 18:07, 24 November 2009 (EST)
 * Considering how many obstacles there are in the Mario series, wouldn't it take forever for the page to load if we do that? Mario Wiki is slow enough the way it is. :/
 * There are currently 135 articles in the Traps and Obstacles category. Each article is as short as a single sentence to only a couple, few-sentence paragraphs. Combining all of them into a single super-article will amount to a page nowhere near as long as one the character pages, which are currently some of the largest on the wiki. With some re-writing and removal of pictures to form more of a general article featuring a list, this will drop to a more manageable page. (It should be noted that a cursory look at the category shows several articles that appear to be enemies, not traps or obstacles. This miscategorization will also cut down the article's size when cleared up) If this is still too long for you or others, I have no qualms with two super-articles, one for "obstacles" and one for "traps". This will cut down the pages even further. Redstar 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)

"Coincollector (Talk) - That's really unnecessary. Not ALL traps-and-obstacles articles are one-sentence long. If they had that size would be rapidly deleted cuz Mariowiki doesn't approve that. Second point, if we have short articles - more than one sentence long, sure, we just add they are stubs and soon these pages can receive more information by a good contributor. "
 * How much information can feasibly be added to an article on spikes? A stub sometimes will remain a stub, since the information related to an article's subject can be limited. While it may be true that not all of the trap and obstacle articles are so short, they are still too short to constitute a true article. It's simply trivial. A general article groups all the information together in a much more appropriate environment. Redstar 21:59, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Despite for being a short article, that doesn't mean it will remain short forever. Anybody can add more info to these articles if they know more of them. Furthermore, we have the pipeproject Unstubify where many users want to remove that (annoying) stub tag to make short articles longer and informative.
 * Yes, but how much information can be added to an article on a trap. "This game mechanic kills Mario. It kills him by doing this." I'm perfectly willing to expand on these articles, and am currently doing so to many other stub articles, but in the long-run it's simply not something that can be expanded. Get me a book where Miyamoto discusses the artistic direction that went into creating spikes, as well as the aesthetic team that decided where to put it and how many, and the programming niceties involved in putting it there, and so on, and we can expand it. Redstar 22:22, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Sorry, but your latest comment is forcing to go beyond of a topic that I ain't concerned by now. How can I find more info for a single short article since personally I'm busy for other objectives of my life? I don't know but sometime...
 * I was speaking in generalities. I don't suppose anyone can find that kind of information, and that's my point. I have the time and the interest, but I can't find such information. It simply can't be done. These articles are trivial and would be better suited for a general super-article that covers the general topic. The information will remain the same, but is in a quick-and-easy place for viewing similar game mechanics. Redstar 22:37, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Then if you couldn't find more info, too bad, but even so that doesn't mean the article is and will be stub. I think this proposal something unnecessary just because you think all the obstacles are short, contain the same info (it kills the character and nothing else) and THEY'RE NOT articles - then what they are?. And if you are still thinking so, then think about the one-time appearance characters.
 * I'm not adverse to some of these articles remaining that have sufficient information. The Fire Shooter and Fire Spitter articles, for example, have some information that serves for an expanded reading-experience (design failure and development throughout the series), but many other articles are simply unnecessary or permanently stubs. Look at this, for example:

"A platform is an obstacle in almost every adventure video game, and the Super Smash Bros. series. In sidescrollers, the player can jump through platforms (and in Smash Bros' case, drop through as well), but in 3D games, the player would need to get on them as if the game were real life. Some platforms cannot be jumped through in sidescrollers (Mario Bros. for example), but most can. "


 * Really? An article on platforms? I honestly cannot see how that could be expanded into a significant article. This is the kind of thing that simply begs to be grouped. As for your "one-time appearance characters" example, I must say that there are several pages that group characters together that lack insufficient information. Try any of the "List of Implied X" categories. Redstar


 * Actually, in an article about a platform, we could list all the different types of platforms that appear in the games. But forget about that. Why can't we merge the obstacle articles into the game they appear in, instead of a "super -article". Or perhaps a sub article about obstacles on a certain game. Like for Yoshi's Island(the game) it could be, Yoshi's Island/obstacles, just like we did for beta stuff.
 * Something like that could work, but many platforms, obstacles, and traps make multiple appearances throughout the series. I really just want to get most of these articles placed somewhere where they can provide more general information. I really don't see the point in have them all separated, so alternative proposals are fine by me. Redstar 01:12, 29 November 2009 (EST)}}