MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56

Either rename Chanterelle to Pop Diva, or rename Master Poet to Simon
This proposal's title sums it up. I know this is just one example, but this has been bugging me for quite a while since it's super inconsistent as to how we deal with these characters' names. For clarification, both of their Tattles refer to them by their stage names, and their real names are only occasionally brought up a few times at best.

Proposer: Deadline: September 28, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Rename Chanterelle to Pop Diva

 * 1) My preferred option, as per the analysis above.
 * 2) Per Tattle/common name, and also because Simon Belmont is more commonly known as "Simon" and there's a bit less conflict than the alternative.
 * 3) Per Link.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per Japanese script where these two are known only as "Songstress" and "Songwriter" while "Chanterelle" and "Simon" appear to be localization inventions.

Rename Master Poet to Simon

 * 1) I prefer this, personally.
 * 2) Preferred option.

Do nothing

 * 1) This definitely seems like something that should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket one size fits all proposal.
 * 2) On the other hand, I'm also okay with this option because Chanterelle calls herself "a Pop Diva" at one point, implying there are others, but it could just be an inconsistent translation (as the script is also inconsistent if they should be "the Pop Diva/Master Poet" or just "Pop Diva/Master Poet").

Comments
@Waluigi Time: This IS a single case. 17:22, September 21, 2020 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: Yeah, I guess the initial name of this proposal confused you a bit. Reworded for accuracy. 17:31, September 21, 2020 (EDT)

Upload images from the base game along with remakes
So what we're going to do is replace the images from games like SMAS and SM3DAS with ones from their base game, but still keep the images in their gallery, like this:

Put all the other images in the gallery.

Proposer: Deadline: September 30, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal and what Doc said here.
 * 2) Personally I think it makes more sense to prioritize showing the content in its original form, so agreed. Not to mention that thanks to Virtual Console and other re-releases, I'd argue that in the case of some remakes like All-Stars and 64 DS, the originals are more iconic and well-known at this point.
 * 3) This always bugged me, especially with Yoshi's Island.
 * 4) Couldn't agree more.
 * 5) While admittedly not as bad as the "this is a thing, but only in the reissue" style of writing, this is still a change that would do nothing but benefit (especially since a lot of environment tiles were outright changed in the SMAS redraws). A lot of older screenshot uploading priority suffered from a (rather naïve) "these ones look better so it's all we need!" mentality. In a way, this proposal is in-line with my replacing of NES port cover images with arcade materials for arcade game infoboxes. Anyways, per proposal.
 * 6) See the Choosing a Favorite Snack article as a good example for how this would work.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all
 * 9) - I assumed this is how it was already.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) I agree, much better to show the original version of the content, as often references are based on it (like the Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World), there’s still space in the pages to show how it was then remade.
 * 12) Same thoughts as Alex95. Per all
 * 13) Always thought it was weird how only SOME pages did this. I feel like remakes should be included just as much as their original counterparts.
 * 14) In my opinion there should be both the orginal and remade photos.
 * 15) Don't we do basically the same thing with Mario Kart tracks? Original in the template box, reappearances in a gallery? I thought this was just supposed to be the normal. Per all.
 * 16) This makes a lot of sense really, like some of the other people here I'm surprised this wasn't already the standard.

Comments
I think the proposal would be better worked out if it was drafted as a change to the image use policy. I think your points need a bit more fleshing out before we can officially apply it, since the title itself is a bit too vague for my tastes. There is a bunch of other articles that do bother me since they use images not in the original game, such as Super Mario Bros. and its use of All-Stars map images but I generally agree with the premise of the proposal nonetheless. 18:11, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * FYI, I'm not going through the hassle of puttting on every page that this proposal includes.  18:30, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * Um, you don't have to? I've seen plenty of encompassing proposals come and went fine without requiring usage of that template. 18:36, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * It doesn't seem vague to me, the point is just to prioritize using images from the original games rather than remakes whenever possible. I don't really think there's much fleshing out to do there. -- 18:38, September 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * @Ray Trace. Well, that might have been because the template was unused for a long time, and I decided to start using it again. 19:07, September 23, 2020 (EDT)

Question, would you prefer the non-base game's image also in the infobox along with the base game's instead of being in the gallery? 00:02, September 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * Doesn't matter to me either way as long as the original image is the most prominent. -- 11:26, September 26, 2020 (EDT)

I recommend two template boxes next to each other or something like merging the two in a box if possible. -- 18:33, September 29, 2020 (EDT)
 * That's what I basically just said three comments above, but I think the idea of just having the other image in the gallery is better, as said that the base game's image should be the most prominent.  19:04, September 29, 2020 (EDT)

What happens when there are two or more products that can be considered the base game? Is the version with higher resolution given priority for the infobox or do both releases get an infobox image? An example would Captain Toad Treasure Tracker's Switch and 3DS release, specifically the Super Mario Odyssey based levels. Salmancer (talk) 16:38, September 30, 2020 (EDT)
 * If there are noticeable graphical changes, then we could try to fit both in the box. (BTW, I'll archive this at around 4:00 WST.) 17:51, September 30, 2020 (EDT)

Super Mario Sunshine Minor Locations
Hello, everybody. So, recently I created Casino Delfino, previously a redirect to Hotel Delfino. There was a sufficient amount of information provided for its own article. I was unsure if it would suffice at first, and figured if Sand Cabana, Surf Cabana, etc. are deserving of their own articles, this would be about the equivalent. There are a lot of other minor locations with defined titles, including Ricco Tower, Hillside Cave, and Cliff Spring Cave, all of which currently redirect to the mission involving the location. However, I believe so along as there is a proficient amount of information detailing layout and its history in previous episodes (this, naturally, would not be identical to the information listed for the secret areas), these locations would be deserving of their own articles. Of course, before I continue to do this, I would like to see how you guys fall on the topic and if there are any restrictions or exceptions that would apply.

Proposer: Deadline: October 30, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal, provided there is a decent amount of information for each of these supposed articles, covering both history and layout, which I would be happy to provide.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal, seeing as we have those other articles and there's information to add on the locations themselves like accessibility.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Sure.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
Will this proposal just cover SMS, or other games with minor locations deserving of an article that hasn't been created yet? 23:42, October 23, 2020 (EDT)
 * Focusing on SMS, though maybe one or two of SM64? The only one I can currently think of is Windswept Valley, although I'm certain there are others. So, this applies to SMS and SM64. 00:35, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * Btw, this would NOT apply to generic locations such as "Pyramid" from Shifting Sand Land and "Volcano" from Lethal Lava Land as they already make up and contribute to a majority of each level and would write more or less the same. This mostly targets more minor locations with established titles confirmed either by a character or the title of an episode. Just clarifying, as I saw this brought up in a previous proposal. 10:53, October 29, 2020 (EDT)

Decide where to cover Cheese the Chao
Alright, continuing with the improvement of our Mario & Sonic content, it's time for another proposal, and this time it's about deciding where we cover Cheese the Chao. Following the guidance on Coverage, the Mario & Sonic series does receive full coverage of the Sonic-related content in relation to Mario & Sonic, which does mean that Cheese needs to be covered somewhere. At the moment, the coverage of Cheese is in a bit of a weird place- he's partly covered on Cream's page, but it's very much a half-done job there- he's mentioned in the opening paragraph, which makes it seem like the page is a split between him and Cream, but after that the page is almost entirely focussed on Cream with a few places just mentioning that Cheese appears (also, the introductory sentence for him is wrong an the rest of that article goes on to contradict that). There's also a Cheese the Chao redirect, which does just lead back to Cream's page. Cheese is also partly covered on the page for the Chao species, but it's limited to just saying Cheese appears there too. And to make things a bit more complicated, although I can't remember exactly where, I know I've seen articles which talk about Cheese like he has his own article.

Apparently the idea of renaming Cream's article to include Cheese was brought up before, but the proposal failed with what seems like some weak reasoning that basically came down to "He doesn't do much and Cream is the page's main focus, we don't need to rename the page"- despite the fact he was still covered there, and the page was treated like it was about both. Also, the example used to say that articles shouldn't be named after everything in them during that proposal is no longer valid, as the Crystal Bit has since been split from the Crystal King.

At the moment, I can't list off every appearance that Cheese has in the series, as there are so many side modes and things where he could appear and I just haven't found him yet. I think he first appears in 2012, where he accompanies Cheese at times in the Wii version, and then appears with her in the story mode for the 3DS version, where they both only appear in one episode, but Cheese does have some of his own dialogue here (albeit limited to the word "Chao"). I don't think he appears at all in 2016, but he does return to accompany Cheese in 2020 (He even gets his own artwork in this game). There are also a number of references to him in the series, but I can't pick those all out right now.

I think that there are three main ways we can go about this: I've been thinking over how to get this done for a while, but I haven't been able to come up with a single answer, so I think it's time for a proposal so we can get this straight and work out the best way to get Cheese covered properly.
 * Create a new article for Cheese- Convert the existing Cheese the Chao redirect to a full article for him, and reduce the Cheese specific content on Cream's page. Given that more often than not Cream appears without Cheese, I think it would make more sense to just give Cheese his own one so that most of the article actually has some relation to him, and I think with the differentiation of things like the references there'd be enough unique information to justify it.
 * Cover on Cream's page and rename it- Expand the coverage on Cream's page to make it more in line with the pages for the WarioWare duos (Ashley and Red, Dribble and Spitz, etc.)- add full information for him to the page, expand the infobox, fill out the gallery, etc. The page would need to be renamed to go with this, likely to Cream the Rabbit and Cheese the Chao to be in-line with all of the other Sonic character pages.
 * Cover on the Chao page- Probably not the best idea, but it's worth including as there's already some stuff there, and funnily enough Cheese is currently the infobox image there. I'd probably go about that by adding a separate paragraph for Cheese for each of the games he appears in, but there might be other ways to do it.

Proposer: Deadline: November 25, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Create a new article for Cheese

 * 1) Per proposal and the points raised above.
 * 2) Hey look mom, it's my ancient proposal! Considering that Cream and Cheese aren't nearly as joined at the hip as the WarioWare duos (even Ashley's appearances without Red are pretty sporadic), this seems like the best option.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.

Comments
I think the Chao's name is just "Cheese", hence "CREAM THE RABBIT & CHEESE " here. If it has its own article, it should probably be "Cheese (Chao)". Although, can we have an option for covering on Cream's page and not renaming it? Ditto for Froggy. Reason being that Sega doesn't usually give them separate character profiles. Also, if the Mario & Sonic series gets "full coverage", doesn't that mean Flicky and the like should have their own article too? LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:00, November 18, 2020 (EST)
 * Alright, I'm not entirely familiar with the Sonic series so I didn't know about the name thing- I'm sure I've seen him referred to as Cheese the Chao somewhere, but I might be wrong about that. So if he's only consistently referred to as Cheese, then yeah, we can call the page that (It might need to be Cheese (character) though, looking at MarioWiki:Naming). I've tried to avoid the non-renaming option as otherwise I think we'd either end up with the messy situation that we have now, where the page is poorly balanced between the content for the two characters, or would end up becoming a misleading title, where the whole thing is clearly talking about the pair but is only named after one. And yes, I am thinking about getting something done for the animal friends, particularly as you can speak to a number of them within the Tokyo '64 in the story mode of 2020. I'd want some time to get together a list of all of them first and I'm still thinking about whether to give them individual pages or a big group one yet. I'll get to that eventually, there's still a lot of other stuff to do, but it is on my radar. BBQ Turtle (talk) 06:40, November 19, 2020 (EST)
 * Well, if "Cheese the Chao" is ever used as a full name, it's so rare that it should only belong in the infobox (Sonic New Network does that while citing...a sticker book?). Anyway, I'm more asking for a status quo option because that's the norm, not because I necessarily believe that's the right option. I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the Olympic games, so I think it's best for me to abstain for now. I imagine if Flickies and company were to share an article, it'd be based on their Wii U trophy title, Fauna [of Windy Hill Zone]? LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:56, November 19, 2020 (EST)
 * I think it's too late for me to add it now, but if this goes to a no quorum I can add it on to the next one. That could be a potential name for it, yes, but there could be some other ones floating around- There's a badge in 2012 for the "Audience" which says "Sonic's animal pals have come from the forest to cheer!", so that's another two potential names right there. It just all needs a bit more research, so it's not something to worry about until the future, but if you come across anything else it'd be helpful to know. :) BBQ Turtle (talk) 05:08, November 23, 2020 (EST)

I need to see a case that Cheese the Chao has to receive a separate article compared to the WarioWare pairing. I don't think it helps Cheese's case that the WarioWare series is granted full coverage, which didn't prevent Red from having his own page, while crossover scope is much more limited. 15:22, November 25, 2020 (EST)

Decide where to cover Froggy
Yes, this does need to be a separate proposal from the Cheese. Froggy is handled differently, as he only appears in one episode of 2012 3DS to my knowledge aside from a couple of references, but the coverage policy does mean that he needs to get some proper coverage somewhere. Froggy isn't really covered properly anywhere at the moment, and is just limited to being mentioned in relevant places, so a place to have information on the character is s good idea. I think it comes down to two options- either give him a new page entirely, or rename Big's page and cover him there. Personally, I'd lean towards giving him his own page, as most of the content on Big's would have little to no relation to Froggy, and within his appearance, Froggy does do some stuff independently from Big. The other option is to just put him on Big's page though, but it would need to be reworked to reflect the fact that it is about both of them, like the shared WarioWare articles for characters like Kat and Ana and should probably be renamed to something like "Big the Cat and Froggy" if this was to be the case. This is another thing that I've been struggling to make a decision on for a while, so I though it was time to get it to a proposal and work out where to go from there.

Proposer: Deadline: November 25, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Create a new article for Froggy

 * 1) Per proposal and the points raised above.
 * 2) Froggy? Where are you? Per my reasoning on the Cheese proposal.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all. Froggy is definitely not like the WarioWare Duos at all.

Make a category for actresses featured in the Mario franchise and in real life
(This has been moved over from a section on Talk:Main Page due to violating TPP rule #4.)

I think a separate category for actresses would be good because there would be no pages for actresses in the Actors category, plus it would be helpful to people looking for just actresses by having that category available instead of having to search through the Actors category.

Proposer: Deadline: December 12, 2020; 23:59 GMT

Support

 * Per myself.

Oppose

 * 1) Personally, I don't think the organization is that bad right now; besides, this might open up a can of worms for categories of "such-and-such male characters and people" versus "such-and-such female characters and people", which would be too complicated.
 * 2) Per Archivist Toaddette. I don't particularly think it could be so bad right now, and it feels like it could require a huge move.
 * 3) There's only 19 pages in the Actors category, I don't see why it needs to be split.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Actors can refer to females too.
 * 6) Per all, it's only a small category and I've seen "actor" used as a gender neutral term fairly often (Usually I only see "actress" used when it's absolutely necessary to differentiate male and female). Also, from a quick look there only seems to be three pages that would make use of the actresses category, which I believe is the absolute bare minimum and suggests a split isn't necessary.
 * 7) Per all.

Comments
I think it's a better idea to rename the category, "Actors and Actresses" but personally, I view the word "actor" as a gender-neutral term. 17:43, December 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Per Ray Trace on the renaming. 19:33, December 5, 2020 (EST)
 * Agreed Benjaminkirsc (talk) 12:29, December 6, 2020 (EST)

Reorganization of Mario Kart sponsor lists
Okay, this has been a long time coming. Yes, I know this is something that BBQ Turtle has been working on for quite some time now, and I still do appreciate her desire to fill a previously unfilled gap in our coverage, but this isn't about removing any coverage. It'll be about reorganizing our coverage.

See, as of right now, one-time Mario Kart sponsors are listed in "", whereas recurring sponsors are listed in List of recurring sponsors in the Mario Kart series. While there's nothing inherently wrong with this form of organization, it still has one major problem: there could end up being so many recurring sponsors that the latter list couldn't possibly fit them all without becoming bloated and tricky to navigate efficiently. Fortunately, I have a simple solution in mind: I propose that all of the sponsors listed as recurring sponsors be moved back to the respective list articles of the games they debut in, and said lists be renamed to "". That way, no list is any more exhaustive than it absolutely needs to be.

Proposer: Deadline: December 13, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) This seems like the best way to go about it. The page is already getting very long as-is, not to mention it's theoretically possible for every single sponsor in the series to eventually end up on this page.
 * 5) Per proposal- when the decision was made to organise the pages like that, the Mario Kart 8 sponsors weren't getting reused left right and centre to make most of them recurring ones, and the actual recurring ones were relatively few and far between, so switching to a system like this seems like a good plan.
 * 6) Was about to propose that the sponsor lists should be named "List of Mario Kart 8 sponsors" to be consistent with the other listicles (like List of Mario Kart 8 media) but I suppose with this change, the wording would be inconsistent with the recurring one.
 * 7) With Mario Kart Tour reusing so many sponssors from Mario Kart 8, it only makes sense to have all the sponsors grouped by game where they originated.
 * 8) - Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per all. I would also like later game mentions because they are still in that game, but it isn’t necessary.

Comments
Something else I forgot to mention: Should this proposal pass, the recurring sponsors list will be retooled into a disambiguation-esque page entitled "". 13:18, December 6, 2020 (EST)

Delete “List of [TV show title] episodes featuring [Character]”
While I was browsing the page for Candy Kong, I happened upon the article “List of Donkey Kong Country episodes featuring Candy Kong”. I clicked on the article (which had been flagged for needing to be rewritten), and realized that the article is unneeded. All of its information could be put on the Candy Kong page in a condensed format. There are other pages like this for Mario and Donkey Kong, and a deleted one for Mouser. Personally, I think we should merge the content in the articles into the character’s article and deleting the pages.

Proposer: Deadline: December 27, 2020, 23:59 GMT

Delete the articles and merge their content

 * A paragraph per episode isn’t needed, just a couple of sentences saying what they do in the episode and how they contribute to the plot.
 * I can see why we have them, but I honestly don't see any reason we can't just merge the info into the main articles. I know this sounds a little hypocritical with my philosophy of shorter, more concise articles, but I think we can include the info elsewhere. There really isn't a need to have these to begin with, honestly. They just feel unnecessary.

Keep the articles

 * 1) I don't think a blanket deletion of these is a good idea. Some characters don't need them, but other characters like Mario and Bowser, who play major roles in nearly every episode of the cartoons they appear in, would have very long sections in their already massive pages. I'd prefer this to be handled on a case-by-case basis. That can be said, I'm open to re-merging in the future if it can be demonstrated that characters with lots of appearances could have sections of reasonable length.
 * 2) Per Waluigi Time, I do not feel that a complete blanket deletion is the best way to go about it. I have explained more of my reasoning in the comments below.
 * 3) Per Waluigi Time. I think case-by-case is the way to go.
 * 4) Per.

Comments
While I can see the case for minor characters such as Mouser getting merged, the reason those pages were created was to keep plot summaries off the page, with major recurring characters in mind. Perhaps there can be a case made for summarizing a role these characters get followed by a simple bullet list of episodes characters appear in however, in a similar vein to how Skewer has a bullet list for all official Super Mario Maker courses it appears in. 15:39, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * That could also work.

I feel like articles for major such as List of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 episodes featuring Mario are acceptable due to the length of their original articles, though a major issue I see with the pages currently is that the sections seem to describe the full plot of the episode, rather than just the character’s role. I feel it would make sense to keep major character pages and rewrite them to focus on the character, though one page that I’ve always been unsure of its necessity is List of DIC cartoon episodes featuring Hip Koopa, since none of the other Koopalings have an article like it, and there is not much information on it. -- 18:12, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * I think that's because the Mario, a starring character, has his role is tied strongly to the plot. I think the way to go might be like how Wendy does it, at least for recurring characters. In Mario's case, might as well say he appears in all but one episode and then point out which episodes he doesn't have much of a role in. 18:26, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * Yeah, I think the Koopalings don't necessarily need separate pages, though I don't like the current presentation on Wendy's. -- 18:28, December 20, 2020 (EST)
 * I can definitely see your points there, and I agree that would probably be a better way to go about it. I do feel that the way Wendy’s page deals with it could use some rewriting, though. -- 18:36, December 20, 2020 (EST)