Talk:Mario/Archive 2

Un-canon elements
The elements coming from the cartoons doesn't count in the video game timeline, so should I delete the part where it's said that something's happenning between Super Mario Bros. and its sequel ? Koopalmier 07:11, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
 * Actually, there is no "video game timeline". The whole article should be reorganized according to this. 07:28, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
 * But, seriousely, it's obvious that there are multiples Marios in differents universes. The one from the video games, the one from the DIC cartoon trilogy, the one from the Mario anime, the one from the educative games, ect... Or else Bowser would be dead already, Mario would not have hairs, and Mario & Peach wouldn't have a romantic relationship. We should separe the vdieo games part from the cartoon part in the biography, at least, no ?

Koopalmier 08:47, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
 * Of course there are many inconsistencies between the various appearances (not only in different media). That's why the section shouldn't be called "Biography" anymore, but rather "History". In this section, we can list every of Mario's appearances, no matter which form of media. Video games aren't any more canon than cartoons. 09:27, 1 June 2009 (EDT)
 * "Video games aren't any more canon than cartoons"
 * Bullcrap. The number of inconsistencies between the games isn't nearly as bad as the inconsistencies between the different medias. And while the games don't follow a timeline nor care about continuity, they're clearly based on the same universe, while the Dic cartoons follows a continuity of its own, the movie is another unique continuity, etc. And if the cartoons are as canon as the games, then how come that none of the character introduced in them have reappeared in the video games, while characters that debuted in the games have been kept by the series and made later appearances in the games? - Dere 00:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Treating the games and some crappy cartoons that weren't produced by Nintendo as the same universe is pretty naive. Redz (talk) 13:29, 23 January 2014 (EST)

Biography section.
The biography section is a mess. It treats the different forms of Mario media as though they all occur in the same continuity. Why is this? Shouldn't there be a section detailing the video game continuity, a section detailing the TV cartoon continuity, a section detailing the movie continuity, and a section detailing any other continuities? I mean, I doubt any Superman wiki page jumbles the different Superman continuities together like this, for instance. It's just sloppy. - Buddy Christ
 * The organization is correct according to our guidelines. It's not a biography section, but rather a history section, and as such it should list all appearances of a character in history, no matter in which media. There's no way of making a proper "Biography" section, because even in the video game "continuity", there are dozens of inconsistencies. Plus, who says that video game appearances are part of a character's "biography", but cartoon appearances aren't? For our motivation to adopt this organization standard, please see here. 05:41, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Paper Mario
Should that be considered canon or is it more of a spin off?
 * If you mean "Part of the video games timeline", then yes. It's in fact a rather important game, as it's starting from here that Bowser will start to try world domination. Koopalmier 01:32, 16 August 2009 (EDT)
 * There is no "canon". The game was officially released by Nintendo, so there's no reason it's less "canon" than other games. 17:35, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Well the Mario RPG's are a bit different from the platformers but I get what your saying.
 * Every Mario game is different. Mario can do 300 ft high jumps in Mario Strikers Charged when he can't jump higher than 5 ft in Paper Mario 2. But those are gameplay elements. Koopalmier 01:32, 16 August 2009 (EDT)

Misplaced Picture
There is a picture from Mario Vs. Donkey Kong next to the Wrecking Crew '98 section in the article. It doesn't belong there and someone needs to fix it!--fawfulfury65 18:18, 29 July 2009 (EDT)fawfulfury65

Name Wrong!
Mario's full name isn't "Mario Mario" Nintendo NEVER said that,they said that Mario Mario isn't Mario's Name, Understand People!


 * The Super Mario Bros. movie says his full name is "Mario Mario". The film was made with Nintendo's permission, and so we consider it to be an official source of information. - 17:10, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

You're right! MY NAME IS MARIO MARIO! How'd you know that? --Mario4Real 10:38, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
 * You're strange..., at first you said that the name was correct but now seems that I was right...Weird x3-- 21:22, 3 December 2009 (EST)
 * They are called the MARIO BROS., not the Jones Bros. or the Smith Bros. or anything like that (unless Mario's full name is Mario Bros.).

Nintendo said it not Mario Mario


 * Well if they're called the MARIO Brothers, what else would their last names be? The MagikrazyMagikrazy.png

Yea, 'cuz if they used his first name, sometimes they would be the LUIGI Bros.
 * Well, you don't say "The people who invented the plane were the Orville Bros.", or "The Eli Bros. sure are good at football"



ArtWork
I think Mario's New Super Mario Bros. Wii artwork should be at the start it is the newest.Plus it looks better in my opinion.

Game-unrelated Artwork
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, there were several official artwork pieces of Mario that showed him doing activities such as sports or driving a car. But they are not directly related to a particular game. At the moment I don't have any of these on hand, but I ask because now artwork of Mario and Peach wearing traditional Japanese attire has been revealed by Nintendo due to a recent event in Kyoto (information). The artwork can be seen here (there is also a less-quality photo). Furthermore, there is artwork where Mario draws a rickshaw with Peach and Toad, but I've only seen a photo of it so far. Anyway, I think such artwork should also be covered in the character galleries, even if it doesn't belong to a game, but it is still official. Maybe in a separated section. What do you think? --Grandy02 17:39, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 * If it's official... Sure, why not? - 17:43, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Seems that Lindsayoris15 uploaded the art, but MeritC thought it is not needed and deleted it. But I still think nothing speaks against making a headline for "Non-Game Artwork." It is official artwork that comes from Nintendo. Hotel Mario and Mario is Missing!, both 3rd party creations not made by Nintendo, aren't more official than this. --Grandy02 06:42, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * If this artwork is acknowledged or even published by Nintendo, then there's no way to doubt that it's official. And the purpose of the wiki is to cover everything official. If we don't accept material not directly connected to a game, then we're going to have to remove many articles about Mario merchandise as well. - 07:04, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Agree. I uploaded them again, but I wrote MeritC to ask for opinion, so I put the artwork here until the answer arrives. --Grandy02 13:47, 6 October 2009 (EDT)


 * The reason I deleted them earlier was that even though they were from the Nintendo Japan site -- since they didn't have any REAL relation to the Mario installments here on this Wiki, it really doesn't belong here. That is, unless if the majority still says that they should still stay and we can find an alternative to tell folks that those two pictures don't have any relation to actal Mario installments (besides, they were mainly done to promote a Nintendo event in Japan). --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 17:39, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, we are a Mario Wiki, and Mario is Mario. We even cover information about his appearance in a milk commercial. I think this is practically the same thing. - 17:46, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Well, here's what I can do - I can create another sub-section in the respective gallery noting that said pictures were done to promote exclusive Nintendo events themselves. Hold on; I'll see if I can achieve this on both Peach's and Mario's galleries. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 20:49, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * All right, done for both Mario's and Peach's galleries (along with adding a disclaimer). Is this satisfactory to you all? --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 21:15, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
 * Looks nice. The artwork I described in my first paragraph might not fall under "event promotions", though, but as said, I don't have that on hand at the moment. --Grandy02 12:41, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Time for a New Image at the Begining
NO QUORUM 3-0-3

There is nothing wrong with the Mario Party 8 piture at the start, but It's just Mario with his hands up! I think he should be more active in the piture at the start. This will show who Mario really is. He's the guy who bashes blocks, and flies through space! The piture should be more than just him standing. So, it's time to vote for a new one! Here are two I like: User: Cberiault

Votes for New Super Mario Bros. Wii Picture

 * 1) I like this one the most. But the other one is good too. User: Cberiault
 * 2) I like this one better than the MP8 one we already have.
 * 3) better Mesuxelf

Keep it the same

 * 1) - I don't like either of them very much. Maybe a picture of him doing his victory sign. That would be more... uh... more Mario I guess.
 * 2) - The MP8 pic is fien unless we could a better pic from NsMB Wii or we could wait till Super Mario Galaxy 2.
 * 3) The SMG one makes Mario's head look big, and the NSMBW just wouldn't look good up there. The current one is the best.

Comments
1. I see your guys point. But the Mario Party 8 artwork that we currently have is just kinda...lame. (Lame for the main artwork anyway) I think we need a more active one. I could try finding another one...but it might be an older artwork (I was considering the Mario Party 6 artwork when I changed my mind) User: Cberiault

I tried to find anouther one...but there really wasn't one that I wanted. Let's try to wrap this up in a few days. We need more votes. If we don't get more votes by Octorbor 16th, then we'll leave it the same. Octorbor 13, 2009 User: Cberiault

I don't like either. The MP8 one looks gay, but the NSMBW one hides his face too much. Maybe something else. --Don Pianta 22:43, 5 November 2009 (EST)

They need to be png images, they'd look SO much better!

Just Silly
This article seems to have the history section written in a made up chronological order. Of course we can assume when certain games take place but to link everything together the way it is here is speculation and has nothing to backup the way it is written. There's so much assumption in this article it's just plain silly. I am changing it unless someone can provide PROOF of why it is set up this way. FD09

Excuse me
I hope I dont sound like Rudy, but how do we know Mario is not italian? It is kinda obvious, his like for spaghetti, his accent, his name and Luigi's. Please explain me.
 * I like spaghetti, but that doesn't make me Italian. Accents and names aren't evidence of national origin, either. "Italian" is more so a national identity rather than an ethnic origin, so it's vague at best. In any case, Mario and Luigi are Italian... But only possibly in the cartoons and film. In the games he has been identified as being born in the Mushroom World, so unless there's an "Italy" in the Mushroom Kingdom, he's not strictly Italian. Redstar 14:32, 2 December 2009 (EST)

He likes pasta and has an Italian accent, and besides, HE didn't have to be born in Italy. Maybe his parents were Italian. So, ha!

its possible that he might have been born like dat. Hey, you never know, there's all kinds of odd stuff in the Mushroom Kingdom. (EX: Toads, Goombas, Etc.) PiranhaBomb

Since when is he depicted as Italian? --217.7.249.168 05:21, 10 March 2015 (EDT)

Unknown Art
I don't know for sure what game this art is from: Panchito
 * Super Mario Bros. 2. Mario entering the door to Subcon. Redstar 14:34, 2 December 2009 (EST)
 * More specifically from the remakes (in original art, Mario and Luigi's overalls were red and green respectively). --Grandy02 05:01, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Mario Segali
Shouldn't we do an article about Mario Segali?Mario was named after him, right?

Uh, Mario is an Italian name, just like Luigi, and they're both Italian.

Trivia
Following what Knife did on Talk:Dimentio, I've decided to poll wether or not to keep certain pieces of trivia.

Mario's Super Mario Strikers jersey number is 1. This might actually be a reference to Mario's status in the series, as only goalkeepers wear number 1 jerseys in actual soccer/football.
REMOVE 0-5

Remove

 * 1) It's speculation.
 * 2) - And its not true.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per Reversinator.
 * 5) Per all.

Mario appeared as the best purchasable character in Nintendo Monopoly. He costs $400, and replaced the Boardwalk.
KEEP 4-0

Keep

 * 1) Worthy enough to keep.
 * 2) -Per
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.

Remove
===Mario's full name is referred to as "Mario Mario", as set forth by the Super Mario Bros. movie. This appears to apply to all continuities in the series, however, because Mario and Luigi are called the "Mario Bros." The box of the Super Mario Bros. Super Show DVD "Mario's Movie Madness" describes Mario as Mario Skywalker when referring to the episode "Star Koopa". This is enfourced by the Prima Edition of the Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga Guide book, where, in the character section, Mario is reffered to as Mario Mario and Luigi as Luigi Mario.=== REMOVE 0-2

Remove

 * 1) Remove it and move it to a section above.
 * 2) Per all.

Mario has also appeared in Tomytec's Dots.
TIE 1-1

Keep

 * 1) Where?

Remove

 * 1) Remove it and move it to a section above.

A Mario statue made out of wax stands in the Hollywood Wax Museum. This is currently the only wax-statue of a video game character.
TIE 1-2

Keep

 * 1) - To where?
 * 2) Per Tucayo.

Remove

 * 1) Remove it and move it to a section above.

In the recent games, Mario's colors are lighter than his colors in 2002 to 2006.
REMOVE 0-5

Remove

 * 1) I don't see a diference.
 * 2) -Per
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Not important.
 * 5) Per all.

The Mario Party 3 instruction booklet claims that Mario's favorite item is the Golden Mushroom.
KEEP 3-1

Keep

 * 1) It perhaps could be moved to a section above, but I think it's better off as a trivia piece.
 * 2) -Per, and i added it :P
 * 3) PEr all.

Remove

 * 1) Remove it and put it in a section above.

Mario made the first pitch in a Seattle Mariners' 2008 season game, as publicity for Mario Super Sluggers.
TIE 2-1

Keep

 * 1) PEr all.
 * 1) PEr all.

Remove

 * 1) Remove it and move it to a section above.

===In the Subspace Emissary, if the player chooses to use Kirby to fight Mario at the Midair Stadium, and then rescues Princess Peach during the Petey Piranha battle, Mario would be the character turned into a trophy the most times, being a total of four.=== REMOVE 0-4

Remove

 * 1) It really isn't anything special.
 * 2) -Can be moved to SSBB
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) per Tucayo.

Comments
@Tucayo and Gamefreak: To Appearances outside of electronic media.

Mario Mario
I'm sure this has been discussed many times, but in the character template it says that Mario's full name is Mario Mario. Now, that's just really stupid. They may say that its his full name in the movie, but it doesn't in any of the games. Therefore, I propose we bring it back to just "Mario".
 * Well, the movie is just as official as the games, so... maybe we could add a reference there to inform our readers where that full name appears? 04:11, 19 January 2010 (EST)
 * *facepalm* Just because the movie is official, it doesn't mean it's canon. The same movie also said that Luigi is a teen and Bowser is a human with reptilian characteristics. And by your logic, Spider-Man fights crime using giant mechas because a Japanese live-action adaptation said so; the Hulk's real name is David Banner because the live-action series said so (despite the comics themselves stating that his name is Bruce, not David), and Sonic's nemesis Eggman isn't a mad scientist who makes robots but a caveman who magically turns people into stone (an old Sonic manga said so, therefore it must be true!). Dere 00:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It should be at least made clear in the infobox that "Mario Mario" is only his full name in the film. In case of the species, references to the movie have already been removed due to a proposal (e.g. Daisy was called an "evolved dinosaur" in the infobox because of the film). --Grandy02 13:44, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Adding that kind of stuff to the infobox is not needed. Also, the movies and the games hardly are "as official" that's a joke. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it has been confirmed that's not his name. Panchito

Wait a minute his last name must be Mario because in the Dr. Mario Series.Dr.s use their last names.-User:UltraMario3000

Maybe Mario doesn't, since no one really knows for sure if his name is Mario Mario. I for one don't think his last name is Mario. That's just silly, and if it IS true, Luigi would be called Luigi Mario, and if he was a doctor, Dr. Mario, which is just plain downright weird. -Isjee594

Images
The large amount of images removed were actually mostly from the odd powerups section which is not towards the manual of style. Panchito
 * Nothing in the Manual of Style talks about a rule like that.
 * Reversinator is right. There isn't a rule in the Manual of Style that even comes remotely close to such a regulation. - 08:00, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Interactions
Wasn't there a proposal a while back that said only characters who had major interactions with the character or something along those lines made a while back? Also, I would've removed Toad and Yoshi because of their size, but I'm thinking someone can write more there. As for the characters in other right now, there's not much else to say. As for Daisy, there's so many other characters already in his interactions section, she seems much less relevant when compared like that. I'll probably mention the smaller sections on the nimination for featured page. Panchito
 * You should at least verify first to see if there really was a proposal.

Changes
Whats with all this weird changes to the article? -- 21:48, 17 February 2010 (EST)


 * LGM is trying to rearrange everything. Sorry, but can you ask her? I don't have the exact answers.


 * I suck at organizing articles :P. I thought the Yoshi series section looked out of place and there shouldn't be a "Mario Bros." and a "Super Mario Bros." series. I decided to change the "Mario Bros." header into "Super Mario Bros." and move the games so they are in release order. I removed the Super Mario Super Show section because I couldn't find a spot for that (PLEASE PLACE IT BACK SOMEWHERE!). Right now, I'm in a dilemma whether I should split the Paper Mario, Mario vs. DK, and Mario and Luigi series.


 * If I did anything absolutely wrong, just tell me.


 * 21:59, 17 February 2010 (EST)


 * Well, as long as all the content remains there, no one opposes this, and its organized, I see no problem in it :) -- 22:08, 17 February 2010 (EST)

Organization
Orginazation has been a huge problem for this article, so I decided to take it opne step at a time, starting with the History. If any one has an issue, go ahead and tell me.

1 - History 1.1 - Super Mario Series 1.1.1 - Mario Bros. 1.1.2 - Super Mario Bros. 1.1.3 - Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels 1.1.4 - Super Mario Bros. 2 1.1.5 - Super Mario Bros. 3 1.1.6 - Super Mario World 1.1.7 - Super Mario 64 1.1.8 - Super Mario Sunshine 1.1.9 - Super Mario 64 DS 1.1.10 - Super Princess Peach 1.1.11 - New Super Maro Bros. 1.1.12 - Super Mario Galaxy 1.1.13 - New Super Mario Bros. Wii 1.1.14 - Super Mario Galaxy 2

This is the what I plan on doing so far, unless there are any objections? - Random User


 * Super Princess Peach should not be included in the Super Mario series. 10:47, 2 March 2010 (EST)


 * It looks better to me, all 'Super Mario Series' within this section - sure, Super Princess Peach goes aside.
 * Does Super Mario World 2 get excluded in this case? --
 * I think it's usually treated as a Yoshi series game. 06:14, 4 March 2010 (EST)
 * You forgot to put in Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins.

Yoshi's been moved?
I found that the Donkey Kong series has been placed at the top of the history section. I thought it should have been the Yoshi series up top, as it tells of the Mario Bros. childhood. 08:30 8 March 2010


 * I think we go by the release dates of the games, not the chronological order in which the games might take place if there was anything like an official canon. Going by release date, Donkey Kong was the first game Mario appeared in. Though I'm puzzled why the Yoshi series is listed before the Mario series here personally; shouldn't it be the other way around, since Mario (obviously) appeared in the Mario series before appearing in the Yoshi series? --vellidragon 16:53, 7 March 2010 (EST)
 * Well, I guess this is resolved now.--vellidragon 19:34, 7 March 2010 (EST)

Re:Trivia
NO QUORUM

The above section called Trivia has some debate, but everyone voted to remove the one about Mario's colors. I went onto the article and it says that it is not removed. I decided to do that again, only the ones I think that should be taken out of the Trivia and either delete it or put it in a section above. -

Proposer: Deadline: March 23 2010, 24:00 April 16 2010, 24:00 May 3 2010, 24:00

Remove

 * 1) Remove and put it in the Appearances outside of electronic media section.

Remove

 * 1) Remove and put it in the Appearances outside of electronic media section.

Relationships
Why is Sonic in the Relationships?? He never was really Mario's friend. There was this period of time where they fought.
 * Relationships? You mean the Interactions with Other Characters section? Why wouldn't Sonic be listed there? There is interaction between him an Mario in a few games, he wouldn't have to be Mario's "friend"; I wouldn't consider Koopa and Wario that either, but they're still listed there. If you meant something different, I'm sorry, that's just the only thing on relationships I could find in the article. And when was this "period of time where they fought"? I don't recall that happening in official games besides potentially in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.--vellidragon 20:07, 14 March 2010 (EDT)

7th June 2010
$$Insert formula here$$

Every time I click on to the link to the Mario and Sonic series articles, it brings me to this one. Tell me why.

ED120
 * Thanks for bringing this up; it should be fixed now. -- 10:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

On what games is Mario fought against? Or what games have Mario as a Boss?
Hi! I'm new here!

I see in the categories that Mario is a Boss. I have a few questions, which I hope don't sound.... noobish.

1. Which games is he fought as a Boss?

2. The categories also say he's a Final Boss? What game's that? I'd like to see that.

3. Also, it says he's a Villain? On what occasion is he a Villain?

I hope I don't sound noobish at all. I just need those 3 questions answered. Thanks. --SMWFan 22:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I've read the article, and I still can't see anywhere where he is fought as a Boss, or seen as a Villain. If anyone knows the answers, it would be appreciated if I got a response. Thank you. Either as a reply here, or on my talk page. Thanks, again. --SMWFan 23:09, 30 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Mario is the main villain in Donkey Kong Jr., where he imprisons Donkey Kong. The player controls Donkey Kong's son, who has to free him, making Mario the antagonist.--vellidragon 17:49, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Article is excessively lengthy
This article is extremely lengthy, almost comically so, and the actual information pertaining to Mario, as a character, is buried under piles of game and plot summaries that, more or less, have no bearing on his actual character. Since these things are better explained on their own pages, is it really necessary to go into full detail about Mario's exploits in every single game on this page? It seems like this article is trying to be the entire Wiki all by itself.

For example, nearly half of the article is a laundry list of every game Mario has ever appeared in, and then a not-so-brief summary of the entire game's concept and Mario's role in it. Is this really necessary? All of these games have their own respective articles. Wouldn't it be simpler and more concise to do something like a table of games he has appeared in, along with their respective release dates, and links to the specific pages on those games?

It seems silly that the entire plot of Super Mario Galaxy is detailed on the Mario article, when Super Mario Galaxy has its own article that fulfills this function. The same can be said for, well, the other several dozen TV shows, games, and things Mario has appeared in.

In short if it has its own article, does it really need to be re-posted on the Mario article? I don't see any purpose it serves to have Mario's article cluttered up with redundant information except to confuse readers and obfuscate actual information about Mario as a character.


 * No, that why there is a rewrite template on the history section. That whole section describes the plots to the games more than Mario's role.

We actually discussed this on the Sysop board a while back, and we all agreed the current characters articles are pretty abominable as is. But of course, we kind of forgot about it.

For what it's worth, Cobold has made a draft for a page that doesn't suck. You can preview it by removing the preview tags. --Glowsquid 12:47, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

If you really want to see an article that is excessively lenghty, go look at Tabuu.

Character
The page doesn't completely show how Mario is portrayed. I think it should be put as the fourth paragraph at the top of the page. I wrote it there but I logged on the next day and saw it was deleted. Why?? Ragazzo 21:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Because everything there that is important or not blatantly ovbious has already been said before it. 21:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Donkey Kong series
First off, I have trouble splitting up the Donkey Kong series into an "arcade series" on one side and a "Mario vs. Donkey Kong series" on the other side because Game Boy Donkey Kong fits in both. Second, I think putting Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis, Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again! and Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem in one paragraph made sense to me, as this article strictly covers Mario's roles in games, and they didn't change at all between those three installments. - 09:05, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
 * I'd actually say that the Game Boy's Donkey Kong '94 fits in neither series: it's not an arcade game, but it's not an actual MvDK game either (the Minis in the latter is way different from just having Mario run around on his own as in all the earlier games, handheld or arcade). The MvDK series has already been recognized with a series page, and so its games should be given their own header in History sections (and DK94 gets its own stand-alone listing (it goes just above Hotel Mario). I suppose Mario's role in the latter three MvDK games can go in one header, but it shouldn't be called "March of the Minis" only: that'd be a misnomer as it'd be covering three different games, not just that one. (I made the two-in-one "Minis March Again!" section because I didn't notice the sentence also had Mini-Land Mayhem! in there until I had hit "save". Generally, I would have gone back and put their combined info under the general series header, after a line about how the original two games kicked off the series, but since there was no general MvDK section, I couldn't do that.) - 20:07, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

FLUDD
We use "Princess Toadstool" when talking about her in Super Mario RPG. (don't we? should we?)

Why don't we use "FLUDD", which was Super Mario Sunshine's spelling of the name, in the Super Mario Sunshine article? Why is everybody allergic to that? "F.L.U.D.D." was a Brawl spelling.

Please let's decide this for consistency - 14:38, 14 March 2011 (EDT)


 * Yes, it should be called "FLUDD" in the SMS section; people don't do that because they probably get confused by the fact that the article has periods, which is due to the SSBB spelling, which is the most recent spelling. It's discussed here. - 17:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)

Donkey Kong (Game Boy)
I thought using "Game Boy Donkey Kong" (an official name used in the credits) is less ambiguous. - 14:43, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
 * I just used the other one because Donkey Kong (Game Boy) is the name of the page (and I've seen it written like that on Pauline, but never as "Donkey Kong Game Boy" "Game Boy Donkey Kong"). And like I said in the edit summary, we already use parentheses to indicate media for other things like Super Mario World (television series) or Donkey Kong Country (television series), so it fits an established header-naming convention. The real question is why we use "DK (GB)" at all if we have "DKGB" "GBDK" as an official name, but that should be discussed on that article's talk page. - 17:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
 * "Donkey Kong Game Boy" is not an official name. Game Boy Donkey Kong is. - 19:06, 15 March 2011 (EDT)
 * ...I should really proofread my messages more thoroughly. - 19:53, 15 March 2011 (EDT)

Mario Talking
In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVjYNE2Kew Mario is talking for almost ten minutes answering questions. What quotes can we put there? 22:26, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

Tanooki
Hey can we change the SMB3 Tanooki Mario image to the SM3DS one?

No. We could have both, but the SM3 Tanooki Mario deserves to be there. --Toad! 07:34, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

New Image Could Work
We could use a new image. Here is my poll:

Proposer: Deadline: September 30, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Fortune Street

 * 1) Personally, I think this one looks best.
 * 2) This one shows Mario doing something, the NSMBW is just Mario standing which is a bit boring.
 * 3) This one ain't bad! :)
 * 4) Out of all of them, Mario looks the best. Why can't we have Mario posing like that? It's fine for several other characters.
 * 5) This one is pretty good.
 * 6) After careful thought, I'm going to have to go with this option. I'll place in an additional comment shortly.
 * 7) This is a neutral image, without Mario holding things
 * 8) I prefer this one because it's his normal design, he's actually doing something in the picture and there's nothing else in the picture thus making it simple and perfect for a main image. Per Madam Fire and Mr. Dude.
 * 9) I'll support this as long as the picture isn't changed until the release of the game. There's always the possibility that the game gets canceled, and we end up wasting our time.

Option 2: Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games

 * 1) The other pictures are just poses of mario from various games. We have enough of those. This one is much more creative.
 * 2) This one shows Mario throwing a javelin, which is a sport that's in the game.

Option 3: Super Mario 3D Land

 * 1) This picture is apart of the mainstream (I think that's what it's called) and would best fit the the cycle.

Option 6: New Super Mario Bros. Wii

 * 1) Most of these are from games that arent out yet and i like this one
 * 2) It's most detailed IMHO.
 * 3) This is the best one right now and the others don't really stand out for Mario.
 * 4) - I support this image for now.

Comments
The only roadblock I see is this -- if I'm not mistaken, "main"/"normal" artworks involving Mario himself only count from the main batch of Mario installments -- this doesn't include spinoff installments. That means Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games doesn't count for this poll, Super Mario 3DS doesn't count, and Paper Mario 3DS doesn't count. So in my opinion, the choice we really have to make would be using the Fortune Street picture, the Mario Party 9 picture, or keep the current one (the picture of Mario for New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Just my two cents on this matter. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 12:03, 30 June 2011 (EDT)


 * If I'm not mistaken, Super Mario 3ds is a main series game, and Mario Party 9 is not. I can't speak for Fortune Street, but I think that is spinoff as well.  Keep your facts straight.

Okay, from what I'm seeing here, the Fortune Street picture is getting the most votes. However, should we actually wait until the game itself gets released before changing the infobox picture? It's happened before in the past on some other articles here, but I still have to ask. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 21:53, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

Well if it has happened before it can happen again. Mario Bros.! 21:55, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

Mario Bros.! 23:46, 16 September 2011 (EDT)

In fact, I think that the words under the pic should say "Mario, in his appearance in the upcoming __________". Mario Bros.! 09:40, 17 September 2011 (EDT)

To Mario4Ever&mdash;See Small Mario.
 * That's a different case; this Mario picture here is the "main" one in the article's case here. I'm still suggesting that although this proposal passes, the current picture should still be active (the NSMB Wii picture) until the Fortune Street game gets released. When it does get released, then we change it (we'd also say that the picture should not be changed until further notice). --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 13:44, 30 September 2011 (EDT)

I can't edit!
I'm trying to edit but I can't! Why? Mr Man 14:59, 6 October 2011 (EDT)
 * You're probably not autoconfirmed.

How many more edits do I need to make, and can they be anywhere? Mr Man 11:18, 8 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Wait a week.
 * Just keep editing, you'll be able to do it eventually.


 * If there's anything that urgently needs to be added, you can just post it here and someone else can add it in to the article.

Someone riddle me this
Everyone was saying that Mario's (and therefore Luigi's) last name isn't Mario. While I agree that this movie (or any other movie of Mario) is non-canon, Mario and Luigi are called the MARIO Brothers. Is there something I'm missing here? The Magikrazy
 * Until Nintendo says they have last names, they don't have last names. I think they're called the Mario Bros. for simplicity reasons.

They don't have last names as far as I know, and, as I said above, Mario's last name can't be his first name, too. They're called the Mario Bros. because Mario is supposedly more famous than Luigi. Plus, Mario was invented first. -Isjee594

Fortune Street image
To clarify, we're waiting for the North American release before changing Mario's image on the article, correct?
 * Yes, and for most solo pics on all articles, the pattern applies as well; we don't change the pics on infoboxes until the upcoming game releases.
 * Thanks, I just wanted to make sure.

Mario's quote says: ""It's-a me, Mario!" Mario, Mario Series". I know he says it several times throughout the series, but it should be changed back to Super Mario 64. Besides, the first time he said it was in SM64!
 * If a quote is repeated throughout the series like this one, "Mario series" is the correct entry, even if it first was heard in SM64.

Factual error
I apparently can't edit the page, so I'll just leave this here:

or use in his arcade game Donkey Kong, he created the character of Jumpman, who previously went under other names, such as Mr. Video. This character was given blue overalls and a red shirt in order to make the arms more visible as well as a cap and moustache,

The screenshot of Donkey Kong immediately below this paragraph clearly shows Mario wearing RED overalls and a BLUE shirt.
 * Fixed.

When Mario was first invented, he had red overalls and a blue shirt. Luigi had green overalls and a blue shirt. So, unless in the actual game it's different from that, don't change it. -Isjee594

Malleo
Should we include a section for Malleo?
 * No. Our coverage of the Mario series, its related subseries, and other related media does not extend to Internet memes.
 * However, Malleo would be good for an Uncyclopedia version of MarioWiki.
 * Uncyclopedia? What's that? And is it appropriate for kids, because I'm only 11.M&amp;L Beware my fury! 20:06, 27 January 2012 (EST)


 * Well, I do not know very much about Uncyclopedia, but it is a wiki with internet memes and other things from Internet that serve people for fun. Just I don't know how inappropiate is it for kids, posibilly not. -- Super-Radio.gif Super  Radio

Consruction
At the top of the section it says the article is currently under construction. If that means being edited with a large amount of changes by a group of people, how long does it take, because it's been under construction forever. Did something go wrong? Are there a lot of proposals that have been approved that need to be added? I can help edit the article if anybody wants. Please let me know on my talk page.M&amp;L Beware my fury! 13:51, 18 January 2012 (EST)
 * There's missing sections and such, since Mario appears in a ton of games, so it's considered under construction.
 * Oh, I get it. Thanks!M&amp;L Beware my fury! 15:28, 18 January 2012 (EST)
 * Would there be consequences if I just removed the construction template, because it is annoying since nothing has been changed, and therefore it isn't really under construction.M&amp;L Beware my fury! 20:08, 27 January 2012 (EST)
 * It's still under construction. Remove the template when it's finished. Even if no one is actively adding to it, it's still considered under construction.
 * How do I know it's finished? Do I look at the wiki maintenance and check what they want changed and fix it or wait for someone else to fix it and remove the template? Or do I learn what needs to be changed and wait for the article to show what is wanted then remove the template? I'm stumped!M&amp;L Beware my fury! 15:24, 28 January 2012 (EST)

New games are being made all the time. I'm pretty sure that all the games Mario has ever been in aren't listed, since I've read the whole article in 30 mins. I'm not sure if it will ever not be under construction. -Isjee594

other games
I own a couple of old game boy cameras and on the title screen it features Mario. Also in the most recent just dance ( just dance 3 respectively) exclusively for the wii version you can download a song called just Mario. Quick question should I be worried if I could beat super Mario 3d land but not the original super Mario and for the game boy. User:buster132

Why?

 * He ain't a featured article. Why? Does the creator think the man that this wiki is centered around think hes not important enough?Eat mai spageti! 18:52, 3 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Featured articles are not based on importance, they're based on the quality of the article. And the quality of the Mario article is lackluster, to say the least. GreenDisaster 18:53, 3 April 2012 (EDT)

Artwork
Why do you don´t put the Mario Party 9 artwork?'' User:SuperMario_3DLand 12:15, 12 April 2012

There was a recent proposal to use the Fortune Street artwork. Besides, I don't like that star on Mario's hand anyway. 21:03, 17 April 2012 (EDT)

Powers and Abilities section
I gotta question a few of these.. "Mario seems to not be bothered by certain temperature levels", seriously, that's a power? Also the Mario runs as fast as Sonic thing, sounds like it was done for cinematic effect, and isn't reflective of any real notable ability on Mario's part. Just my 2 coins. --Goomboy 03:15, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Yeah, I agree. Most video game characters are not affected by hot and cold temperatures. There are ice and fire worlds in lots of non-mario games. And Mario CLEARLY can't run as fast as sonic. They just slowed Sonic down in the M&S games to give the other contestants a fair chance. these are not powers.

-- 11:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT) mariosister1 Did anyone catch at Donkey Kong that it didn't say anything about Mario referred to as Jumpman?

Just a question, they said that Mario lifted a three ton Luigi. Where exactly did they get three tons?--Thmrks99 (talk) 16:57, 10 August 2012 (EDT)Thmrks99

--well honestly and this is my 3 coins but in the 2D Mario games we are shown that Mario can out run bullets (bullet bills) jump on them and make them stop and fall right on the spot and bullet bills have shown to be going at fast speeds in super Mario 3d land shows that bullet bills have broken the sound barrier as shown by the winds barrier going off of them or the spiked chains in sm3dland that create 10 mirages behind itself,or how he usually finishes his adventures in a day usually in a couple minutes or an hour mostly since bowser is usually surprised at how quick Mario gets to the castles mostly since his quote in smg2 whaa- its you? surprised at how quickly Mario got to him the second time or in paper Mario sticker star when a whole adventure took most likely only a couple of minutes as said by kresti when you go back to wigglers house after trying to get to bowsers castle also in super paper Mario enemies that are shown to attack with sound Mario easily out runs them (note attack of sound=speed of sound)as shown by amazy/craze daisys a few notes (sound) hurts Mario but Mario defends against it or by boom boxer species which fire sound waves at Mario.as for the 3 ton luigi fattest person on earth weighed in at 1235 only 765 pounds short of a ton but luigi didn't onlt grow obese he grew in size to about the size (relative to Mario) 6 trucks tall and 4 and half Mario's wide now with all that I think luigi most likely weighs either 3 tons or more than 3 tons and one more thing is I would like to add another ability that hasn't really been talked about and well that marios faster than light (ftl) reflexes as shown from paper Mario where he blocks lightning from the star rod general guys tank or from cloud n puffs lightning attacks, thousand year door where Mario could super guard any attack from anything even lightning and either not get damaged if physical or not get damaged at all if ranged, also in new super Mario bros world 7 fighting lakithunder who rained lightning down and Mario easily dodges them.

Donkey Kong
Where it says Mario is a carpenter, they should add that Mario is referred to as Jumpman.

Don't we have a section for his nick-names and alliaces (or however you spell that word)? We should add it there

-- 11:52, 9 July 2012 (EDT)

Artwork Update
CHANGE 5-1

Mario's (and other characters') artwork should always be updated in accordance with the latest released game. So in this case it would be the NSMB2 one. This keeps the article fresh and updated.

Proposer:: and Deadline: September 7, 2012, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal. EDIT: Per Koopa K's comment below as well
 * 2) – per what we said.
 * 3) Per proposal. Always use the latest artwork. EDIT: (also, per my comment below)
 * 4) Per Koopa K below.
 * 5) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) The current artwork is perfect. It's a normal front view of the character, without dynamic movements or anything. There is no need to change it ever, except if the character's model changes.

Comments
Which image should we use then? The one from NSMB2? 07:05, 29 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Yes, since NSMB2 is the latest game we use that. Once NSMBU comes out, then we update it with that one. 07:31, 29 August 2012 (EDT)
 * So why do we need a proposal for this? GreenDisaster (talk) 07:33, 29 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Because there were a couple of users who were preventing this from happening, saying it was pointless or something. I think MarioSmasher knows the details better. 07:34, 29 August 2012 (EDT)


 * So, are we using this or not?


 * 09:07, 29 August 2012 (EDT)
 * As said by JD this proposal was meant to change the artwork to the one you pictured. -- 04:22, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

Well that's what the proposal is for. If it passes (which seems likely), then we can apply it. 09:12, 29 August 2012 (EDT)
 * It's a good pic that shows who Mario is (block bashing,Goomba stomping plumber) rather than just standing.

Chinese name
As shown in iQue offical website, his official name in the mainland is 马力欧 Mǎlì'ōu, not 马里奥 Mǎlǐ-ào. 马里奥 is just a very popular fan name. (As for 瑪利歐, it is the official name for both Taiwan and Hong Kong, so there's no need to change that.) --神奇超龍 (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Good point. -- 08:59, 25 September 2012 (EDT)

PIC
Isn't that picture at the top from NSMBU, not NSMB2? Luigi79643 (talk) 07:19, 3 November 2012 (EDT)


 * Nope, it's from New Super Mario Bros. 2. See the first pic in the gallery.


 * 07:59, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

Help This Section.
Hello everyone!!! I've added a section on Mario's accomplishments and please be sure to help and improve it.

I have removed section, the contents can be known on the history section.

Delete "Mario's Various Transformations" section
DELETE 8-1

I think there's no reason to have a list of power-ups for Mario in this page. Luigi, Princess Peach and the Toads can have some of those forms in some games, so it's not particular of Mario. The Power-Ups page already explains the powers Mario can obtain, so I think it's unnecessary to have it here.

Proposer: Deadline: February 10, 2013, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) If a Power-Up page exist, then I find this section a little redundant. Besides, it's already described in the Powers and Abilities section. Sure, it's visual, but we do not need a gallery of every power-up, especially if that very section can fit in Power-Up. And, like how the proposer said, why is Mario special for having his abilities listed in a gallery? Of course, Mario is the main character of the series. Doesn't mean it should be Mario-centric. Delete this.
 * 2) what the scorched infant said.
 * 3) Per BLOF.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) &mdash; Per BLOF.
 * 6) - Per all.
 * 7) - Per all.
 * 8) - There is already a page for this, per all.

Oppose

 * 1) keep the various power up section marios the first to use the power ups and also why delete it when the power ups show art work

Comments
TPPs run for two weeks, not one, and you didn't list this on Proposals, which is very bad. Please make sure you know the proper procedure next time. - 23:50, 27 January 2013 (EST)

Simplified Chinese translation of Mario
The Simplified Chinese name of Mario is 马力欧, and the Simplified Chinese translation of the surname 'Mario' is 马里奥.

A random Mario question
I am wondering....When was the first Mario game where he had a voice? Thanks --Goombob XD (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2013 (EDT)Goombob
 * As in, a voice actor? Charles Martinet (the guy who voices Mario up to this day) first voiced Mario in Mario's Game Gallery, but Hotel Mario, the provider for Mario's godawful voice, was before that. Most people will hear Mario's voice in the games for the first time in Super Mario 64, though. According to Mario's game timelime, Hotel Mario is apparently the first game he had a voice. Great beginnings. :P 19:29, 29 June 2013 (EDT)

Broken link
The tenth reference, which was about the real life size poster, leads to a 404 error. What should we do? 18:18, 8 June 2013 (EDT)
 * Do we have a template that says, "Broken Link" or something, like how Wikipedia has one? 19:23, 29 June 2013 (EDT)

Occupations is missing at least one
He was a referee in Mike Tyson's Punch Out!!76.226.192.125 19:16, 29 June 2013 (EDT)
 * There ya go. Added. 19:24, 29 June 2013 (EDT)

Durability, Galaxy Ending
While Mario showing greater feats of durability in some games essentially overrides his lesser durability in other games, I still think his original durability that is still used in the 2d platformers should be brought into question in the article, where he can only survive one hit from any hazard, or two if he has a powerup.

Also, the suggestion that he survived the force of a supernova is way off. First of all, EVERYONE survived that "supernova". Secondly, it is heavily implied in the game that Mario (along with everyone else) was protected by Rosalina and/or the Lumas.

Favorite Food Tidbit
I distinctly remember years ago that the official Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Game Boy Advance website had a profile for Mario and listed his favorite food as "Mushroom Pizza", among potentially other things like his height and such. This wasn't just something made up in localization either, since the game was made by a United States branch. Unfortunately, like most Nintendo of America sites, it was in flash and taken down after it ran its course, so it may be lost. I know some people were able to recover similar Nintendo game sites, like the one for Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards. I wouldn't know where to find a backup, though, where I can conclusively prove that this even existed. Anyone else remember this or can find a copy of the website to verify it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)

Villain?
Would he really be considered a villain just because he was the main antagonist of Donkey Kong Jr.? - Holy user in a talk page! (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2013 (EDT)

Guys..
We need to protect this talk page. People have been vandalizing it by replacing it with things like "Bold Text", "BULLYING NOT FUNNY", or "BUY CHEAP THINGS AT 77CHEAP.COM."(not exact quotes, ok?)
 * Once it gets excessive, then it should be protected. Generally, though, talk pages be open to valid discussions from any user. 18:03, 24 November 2013 (EST)
 * It happened 4 times. Let's protect it so new users can't edit it. PS Also, one person wanted it to be deleted.

Mario Balloon
MAMMA MIA! Super Mario Mario balloon joins the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

So what?


 * My guess is, it should either be a trivia fact or on some references page.


 * I guess it could be mentioned somewhere under Trivia on the article.

Confusion
I have the Guiness World Records 2014 Gamer's Edition and it says he has appeared in 247 titles as of August 2013. On cultural impact it says he is in 116 so this is outdated. But I didn't know if I should change the info because I haven't found a way to provide a reference because not everyone has that book. 17:24, 23 April 2014 (EDT)
 * One part of his Wikipedia page states that he has appeared in over 200 titles, while another states that he appeared in 116 distinct titles(no remakes, ports, re-releases, etc.). I have the 2008 edition of that, I'll check what it says in there.--Vommack (talk) 17:28, 23 April 2014 (EDT)
 * What's the citation given for Wikipedia, or is it actually manually counted? 23:43, 23 April 2014 (EDT)

Wreck-It Ralph
In the Cultural Impact section, should we mention that Mario's mentioned in the Wreck-It Ralph movie (when Ralph knocks on the door of the party, the characters erroneously think it's Mario. Fix-It Felix says that it must be "Mario. Late, as per the norm.") and he's confirmed to make a physical appearance in the movie's sequel. FlashRenegade
 * Don't we already have that somewhere on the article? - 05:42, 25 April 2014 (EDT)
 * No FlashRenegade
 * When was a sequel confirmed? 22:42, 25 April 2014 (EDT)
 * That's a small reference, hardly worthy of a mention in "Cultural impact". Rich Moore has stated that Mario will be in a sequel, but the sequel is still in the planning stage, so it hasn't been confirmed yet. 20:04, 7 May 2014 (EDT)

Super Jump Punch
In Mario Bros., holding the down arrow or down on the joystick allows for a super jump, to strike the ledge above.

09:37, 7 May 2014 (EDT)

Yoshi's New Island
Where does he appear in that game? 12:04, 9 May 2014 (EDT)
 * He appears as a baby, like he's done in every Yoshi's Island game 14:21, 15 May 2014 (GMT)
 * That's Baby Mario, Mario appears as "The Helpful Warp Pipe". - 17:55, 15 May 2014 (EDT)
 * It's not a coincidence that Mr. Pipe has blue eyes and brown work shoes. 18:05, 15 May 2014 (EDT)

Personality: Is this really necessary to mention?
OK, I know facts here are necessary but, do we really need to mention Mario's gross personality in the Super Mario-kun, such as the part of "urinating on Yoshi"? I mean are those comics even loyal to the video games themselves? I haven't come here to start a war edit, it's just I don't think it's really all noteworthy.--CastleResearch (talk) 15:19, 12 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Mario doesn't have that much of a personality in the games anyway (including Peach and Bowser), and Mario's doing crass things is usually not a trait associated with him in the games. The Japanese generally, I think, are more lenient on that sort of humor, with feces being removed in nonJapanese versions of WarioWare microgames. It's not a trait for every character either. The other characters that seem to do crude humor are generally Yoshi, Wario (as in the games), Luigi (not as much), and Bowser. Pretty unexpected.


 * The manga, otherwise, even though it strays into creative territory sometimes, has game-accurate character designs with their own style. Check out the list of images and the subject. Super Mario-Kun has much more accurate designs than the Mario cartoons. Designs aside, the manga also follows the game's basic story, but it does have a few twists here and there.


 * It's also been established that we treat alternate media as canon. Most of Mario's personality in that section comes from tidbits here and there, but we also take them from nonvideo game media, which, I think, is the bulk of his personality. Nintendo intentionally made Mario a blank slate, so we have the comics and stuff to fill it in. It is noteworthy, then, to talk about Mario's 'crassiness' because, again, that has never been shown in the games.


 * It's gross, yes, but it's exclusive to Super Mario-Kun, and that's why I think it should be mentioned. 15:36, 12 June 2014 (EDT)

Smash Bros. Artwork
Why can't I change the currently Artwork into the new one? That image isn't realy a game-only based image (if you know what I mean) 23:45, 12 September 2014 (EDT)

Gorgonzola
In Chapter 3 of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, if Mario talks to The Traveling Sisters 3 in Glitzvile, the green girl will say, 'Oh, gee, it's "Gonzales"? I thought his name was Gorgonzola!' Is this one of Mario's aliases? Another gossip-loving Toad (talk) 03:50, 8 February 2015 (EST)

Paper Mario
So, it's basically confirmed all of the Paper Mario characters aren't actually the same characters as the ones in the actual Mushroom World, but, instead, live inside a book. Should we split all counterpart pages?
 * Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're jumping the gun a bit here. We should wait until the game is released or at least more substantial relevant information is revealed before we peddle with foundational wiki organization. Do not split. For your information, we already have two questions about this here and here. But we don't know anything about Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam so I think it's wise to proceed very cautiously at this point. 22:24, 16 June 2015 (EDT)