MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Create the page: Drilldigger (Discuss) Passed
 * Split the sections Attackathlon, Toad Quiz and Lakitu Info Centre into and  (Discuss) Passed
 * Split and create articles for and . (Discuss) Deadline: February 14, 2016, 23:59 GMT
 * Split Frog and, , and . (Discuss) Deadline: February 14, 2016, 23:59 GMT
 * Split Bee and and . (Discuss) Deadline: February 14, 2016, 23:59 GMT
 * Split, and  from Koopa Kid. (Discuss) Deadline: February 24, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam
Since we started hearing about the subject matter of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, there has been questions about what that means for the Paper Mario series and how we cover it and its subjects. There are three options:


 * 1) Make separate pages for the duplicate Paper characters/species/etc. that appear in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam alongside their flesh/real/3D counterparts, ONLY covering their appearances in that one game, and NOT in any preceding Paper Mario games. It follows the same logic that splits Metal Mario (character) from regular Mario (or Metal Mario (form)) and Baby characters from their adult counterparts, in that the two versions of the characters appear in at least one game simultaneously and function separately from each other. Separate characters (or species, etc.) in the context of the applicable games getting separate articles makes coverage easier (one characters' plot overview per page, one set of stats per page, etc.), and, since the subjects have specific names and identities, it's likely that people will search for them, and we want to make sure that traffic comes to us and finds what they want. This is what I suggest we do.
 * 2) Split coverage of the Paper Mario series entirely due to the M&L:PJ showing that the paper world exists in a book in the regular Mario universe. This means that for consistency, everything that appeared in both series should get split, which is insane from an organizational/comprehensive coverage standpoint and runs afoul of numerous policies and fundamental organization standards. For one thing, the mere assertion that all previous Paper Mario games happened in the M&L:PJ book is reading between the lines and linking unrelated games together into a single narrative, which is against the rules. It also comes dangerously close to making forbidden canon judgments about the Paper Mario series, and even ignoring the "the book's not the real world" angle, it's still placing Paper Mario into its own chronology by separating it from the regular Histories of all the subjects, and we haven't organized articles like that for MANY years, much less split them over it. The only vestige of that sort of thinking is the separation of the film characters, under a biased "they're different" excuse, and that is currently being fixed by another proposal. Even Dr. Mario, while superficially splitting out info based on series origin, is actually more along the lines of the aforementioned Baby characters (as well as other things like Dry Bowser and different forms of boss enemies), in that he's split because he has a specific name, appearance and function with self-contained info that folks are likely to search for, with extra justification that he appears alongside the regular Mario in SSB. And so, because this flies in the face of how we cover things in the Super Mario Wiki and would result in the creation of hundreds of superfluous pages that would snarl up organization forever, I strongly suggest we do NOT do this.
 * 3) Make no new articles and talk about both versions of every co-occurring pair of Paper and flesh/3D subjects in single pages. While this would keep all the Paper things together in one page, I think the resulting clutter in those sections will outweigh any advantage that not splitting it apart would bring, plus M&L:PJ isn't even a Paper Mario game, so the Paper content within it will still be far from the actual Paper Mario content on pages with any sort of History built up. Unless there's two M&L:PJ sections per History section, one for the flesh/3D stuff, one for the Paper stuff, but that would be awkward, and could even make both sections seem incomplete or repetitive, depending on how they're handled, plus it's unlike any other aspect of our coverage of any game, and inconsistency is bad. So I suggest we don't do this either.

Hopefully there were enough pros and cons in there to convince everyone that Option 1 is the simplest way, and is the most consistent with current standards and policies. If you want more words, I also made a big forum post going through all the different sorts of doppelgangers we cover. That forum discussion actually exists because someone already went and made a Paper Mario (character) article, without any discussion, and initially as an "option 2"-style Paper Mario series-wide page, although I've since cut it back to M&L:PJ only. I'm hoping this proposal will make it clear that the community as a whole is behind that decision of mine, and will continue in that direction to move forward with that article, and the ones to follow.

I'm not going to bother making a list of pages that will need creating if Option 1 passes, but it's basically every Paper character in M&L:PJ, including Paper Luigi and his cameo, as well as the Paper Toads and Paper enemies, assuming their stats, attacks and/or other non-superficial aspects about them are different from their non-Paper counterparts (but if, for example, Paper Goombas are the same as regular Goombas except for how they look, and same goes for all the other enemies too, don't bother splitting them). Unfortunately, I don't have the game yet, so I don't know enough to even attempt to split anything myself, so others are feel free to have at it: I'm just here to establish the overall game plan.

Proposer: Deadline: February 9, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Option 1: Separate pages for M&L:PJ characters only

 * 1) - Per proposal. Even if subsequent SSB trophies or whatever vaguely characterize the M&L:PJ character as the "Paper Mario" from earlier games, I think it'd be disastrous to split the series: everything being canon and equal and organized through release dates only is the simplest and best solution, and the current practice of giving pages to simultaneously occurring alternate forms of characters is a logical, straightforward and consistent exception that should work for Paper Jam too.
 * 2) Supported this stance from the beginning, supported it in the forums, will continue doing so.
 * 3) Per Walkazo.
 * 4) Per Walkazo. I was skeptical at first, but after playing Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam and have read discussions, I finally agree to separates paper characters and only those of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam.
 * 5) I've supported this stance, and Walkazo's points only reinforce my position.
 * 6) This is the most reasonable solution. The enemies were likely going to get separate articles anyway seeing as they were fully classified as separate enemies in game, but it does fully clear up what we'd do with characters like Paper Mario, Paper Peach and Paper Bowser (due to his incredibly small role, I'll assume Paper Luigi doesn't fully count, or does he?). Either way, per all.
 * 7) Per Walkazo in the comments.
 * 8) Per all.

Comments
While I'm not suggesting we should split all Paper Mario content, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why Baby Mario is different. His article covers all his appearances as Baby Mario, even when he doesn't appear alongside adult Mario (apart from Super Mario Momotarō and "The Early Years", for a reason I admittedly don't quite grasp). Why should we not cover Baby Mario's appearances when he doesn't meet Adult Mario in the main Mario article, which is what you guys are suggesting to do for Paper Mario? 17:22, 2 February 2016 (EST)
 * There's a very specific, consistent and explicitly named characterization of Baby Mario, and covering half his appearances on one page and half on the other would be messy, confusing and make both articles look incomplete. Dr. Mario and Dry Bowser are covered independently from the main character pages for similar reasons. But this Mario / Paper Mario co-occurence is a one-off so far, so it doesn't need to reconcile recurring solo/duo adventures. Plus, there were four games and many years where there was no distinction between Paper Mario and "real" Mario: they don't call him "Paper Mario" in the earlier games, just "Mario", so it would be wrong of us to go back and say "actually, it was this different Paper Mario all along because a game created years later says so". By contrast, Baby Mario was always "B/baby Mario", and Dr. Mario was always "Dr. Mario", etc., so we're not making stuff up to say there were distinctions from the start. The only times an infant Mario wasn't "Baby Mario" were things like Super Mario Momotarō, Family Album "The Early Years" or "Toddler Terrors of Time Travel", hence they're not covered in Baby Mario's article: that'd be us making connections/appearances that don't exist - same as retroactively making all Paper Marios feature the M&L:PJ "Paper Mario" would be. - 22:25, 2 February 2016 (EST)

To fully clarify, where will we put Paper Luigi in this case? I'm leading to assume he won't get an article due to how minor his appearance was.
 * Paper Luigi should get his own article. Sure, it's extremely minor, but it's a harmless small article. 20:40, 3 February 2016 (EST)
 * The proposal specifically states that Paper Luigi would get his own page like all the rest of the characters. - 21:44, 3 February 2016 (EST)
 * Alright then, fair enough.

Create articles for the hosts of Mario Party 4
Looking back at a proposal I made like two years ago or so, I suggested deleting the articles for Mario Party Advanced characters. I withdrew said proposal after getting a clear view on why we have said articles. Now, two years later, I've been playing a lot of Mario Party 4 recently and came to realize that 4 out of 6 hosts seem to fit in with the explanation gave to explain why we have the Mario Party advanced character articles. Long story short, I believe we should give articles for the Goomba, Boo, Shy Guy and Koopa Troopa (And potentially the Thwomp and Whomp in the extra room) as they play an important NPC role in their game as both hosts of the party mode and certain other modes (Mini-Game mode, present room etc) and they have distinct personalities. Toad and Koopa Kid don't apply here as we know that its the Toad character and Koopa Kid's various roles are all lumped together in the same article (which, now that I think about it, is arguable, but not the point in this case).

Proposer: Deadline: February 15, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Oppose

 * 1) I thought I would support the proposal, believing that with the different clothes every hosts wear, they would be unique characters. Then, seeing that in the Mario Party 4's credit that the characters appear normally and that the Toads, the Goombas, Shy Guys, the Koopas and Boos all play different roles in the Mario Party series, I opposed. What about Mario Party 7's unique characters style? Chinese or Japan Koopa, Egypt Goomba, Top-hat Shy Guy. Koopa Bank's manager. Koopa Troopa that appear in Mario Party DS's story Mode (not the old one). Should we create a page for each of them? What about Mario Party DS, 9 and 10's species boss (Dry Bones, Blooper, Wiggler...)?

Comments
For clarification, the primary reason for the Mario Party Advance characters having articles is that they tick off the necessary requirements. They have names (they're not very original names, but they're 100% names), they have unique characteristics that separate themselves from the rest of their species (unique personalities, unique roles in quests, etc.), and there's a precedence for giving the MPA characters articles set by Hulu, Goombob, Akiki, and others, who occupy the same space as the more generically named characters and yet were given articles while the large majority of the others weren't (until I started mass-producing them). It's the combination of all of those elements that makes them warrant articles. I'm not intimately familiar with Mario Party 4, but I'll provide this: the characters are individually referred to as "Goomba", "Koopa Troopa", and so on according to the manual (with genders, too!), and they have unique appearances, but there's not exactly a precedence for this. To play devil's advocate, are these characters unique enough to warrant individual articles?
 * Well it may not be the strongest reasoning, but they play the important role as hosts for the boards and other modes, thus giving out stars to players. The aforementioned unique personalities can be a reasoning (though the idea of a Boo interested in scaring or a shy Shy Guy may be simply tying into their species as a whole), the Goomba was shown to be a bit greedy and the Koopa Troopa was shown to be laid back, which is something notable about them from their species as a whole. And even if the Shy Guy was still shy, he also showed an interest in exploration. I just feel that the fact they had unique personalities and looks and played an important host role in the game is enough to say they can be split off.
 * Well, just a bit of information, but in the credits sequence, these hosts are shown as "normal" creatures. Not sure how useful it is, but it kind of muddles with their identity, IMO. 15:48, 9 February 2016 (EST)
 * Literally, the hosts are "normal" members of their species, there's no denying that, but their unique roles in the game is what Tails is pushing for. "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask," or capes, cloaks, and vests in this case.
 * Well, I get probably splitting off the hosts in Mario Party 4, with their clothes being their most defining characteristic, but the rest (like Whomp, Ztar, Thwomp, etc.) I don't agree. Might as well split other "generic" hosts such as the Koopa Troopa from Koopa Bank and the Goomba in the battle minigames in Mario Party 2 and the "hootenanny" Wiggler in Western Land (which was merged) and the Bob-omb that appears when someone lands on a Battle Space. I don't know, just because it has dialogue, some characteristic role, and some individuality doesn't mean we should create an article on it. 16:17, 9 February 2016 (EST)
 * Also, these same characters are playable in Beach Volley Folley without their party clothes, so there's that. About Toad... yeah... I'm really not sure if we should delve into identity discussions on whenever he is THE Toad or not... 16:20, 9 February 2016 (EST)
 * Sorry again, but also, these characters' dialogues, if notable, might be a species quirk. Indiana Shy Guy, for instance, makes frequent "um"s and expresses overall uncertainty, but I recall that the shop and lottery Shy Guys have the sameish dialogue... 16:23, 9 February 2016 (EST)

@LudwigVon: The Koopa from Mario Party DS does have his own article. As for the characters in Mario Party 7, they aren't shown to be nearly as separate from the species. My point doesn't really direct at that fact that they wear unique clothing, it's a mix of notable personalities and important role in the game. Item shop owners don't really show much that separates them from their species (example being the Koopa Troopa from Mario Party 2) - @BazookaMario In all honesty, the Thwomp, Whomp and Ztar don't fully count in my opinion as there isn't much that separates them from their normal species. I mentioned them for the sake of staying consistent (as if we were to split the hosts, they'd probably be the center of a few questions). And if the characters in the Beach Volley Folley ARE the hosts without their clothes, I feel that's all the more reason to split them. This game is clearly treating them as independent characters of their species if they are getting these kinds of perks.
 * I suppose so, but part of me still feels like they're just generic species in different clothes. 17:14, 9 February 2016 (EST)


 * The personalities of all of this species also varied on the Mario Party series. Look at Shy Guy who appear to be on Bowser's side in Mario Party 9 (before to be unlocked). Yes, this is perhaps not the same Shy Guy, but created a page because of a personality is a little complicated, because, as I said, most of these species have different personalities depending on the game and especially in the Mario Party series.-- 18:05, 9 February 2016 (EST)
 * There is a subtle difference between the NPCs and the playable characters. I went about splitting the playable characters from their species a while ago, but it failed as there wasn't any proof that the playable characters were the same in their various appearances. This is talking about a group of NPCs who played specifically important roles in their game and in a case where the game itself seems to treat them more as independent characters over generic members of their species.
 * Not sure if the game treat them more as independant characters, seeing the game's credit where they appear as generic species before they wear different clothes. This is where I see them failed to be distinct characters. I wouldn't say no to a page if it would be their clothing from the beginning, but taking precedence on the personalities is complicated, as all this species (Boos, Goombas, Koopas, Boos, Shy Guys) all have various personalities (yes, I repeat) from game to game (especially in the Mario Party series and all of Mario RPG). It's a generic Boo, a generic Shy Guy, a generic Goomba, a generic Toad and a generic Koopa that appear at this moment and start a party. What they seems less important than the different styles of Koopas, Goombas and Shy Guys that appears in Mario Party 7. If we create a page for this, we should create a page for the playable characters, because most of the time, when a species appear as a playable characters, no others is seen as NPC (I didn't remember seeing NPC Koopa when he was playable in Mario Party 9 and the same thing applied for Shy Guy in 9, Dry Bones in 7 and 8 and some others characters). We should also split Glasses Koopa in Paper Mario games, because they are on Bowser's side and "hate" Mario and the good NPC Koopas in Paper Mario games.-- 00:33, 10 February 2016 (EST)
 * I guess this is a matter that's easier to discuss than to fully decide. You are making many good points, but tying all our points together makes an outcome difficult. You are correct in ways regarding the various character personalities showcased throughout the Mario series, but the way I see it, they are all coming from very minor NPC characters.


 * As for the point regarding playable representatives of these species, that's another hard deal to work around. I know one reason the playable species characters don't have articles is because we have no solid proof that it is the same recurring character each time, but another reason I think is because it's easier to just put it all in one page. While I'd personally agree with making an article that simply goes over the playable appearances of a single species character (example like a Koopa Troopa (Playable Character)), I think that'd easily be disagreeable, as it borders on speculation and it's flat out unnecessary. These are all just my opinions though.


 * The species characters in MP4, as I see it, are a group of characters the game is viewing as notable members of said species through host status and even playable status. The whole deal of them just being generic characters as seen in the credits is another thing I'm having troubles explaining. To me, it seems more like how they became the characters the game is portraying more than just a bunch of characters playing dress up. I will likely stand by my opinion on this matter, but I won't deny you have a lot of valid points.

Removals
None at the moment.

Changes
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Miscellaneous
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