MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Delete the "List of bonuses for SSB" pages
This proposal centers on two pages: List of bonuses in Super Smash Bros. and List of bonuses in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

When it comes to the pages centered around the Super Smash Bros. series, there's an unwritten compromise between this wiki and the SmashWiki: we do not cover the same information in the same way. This is evident from the different philosophies each wiki takes, for example with the Super Mario Wiki only covering fan content if it is significantly notable or has been acknowledged by Nintendo and the SmashWiki regularly covering every small-scale tournament and professional player, but it extends to each individual article as well. Take any random article and you'll see that the SmashWiki is far more detailed about the technical information, whereas the Super Mario Wiki presents the information in a more streamlined (and accessible) manner. This is the way things are, and this is the way things'll be for the forseeable future. However, this compromise only works if the information is truly being covered differently, and the two lists that are involved in this proposal fully break that.

These lists are nothing more than us writing down the information that is already present in-game, with little to no additions on our part. It's necessary to supply the means of unlocking each bonus, sure, but when every bonus can only be obtained in one way, there are only so many ways you can uniquely write about it without lapsing into poor writing. There's no additional flourishes in-game, either, so the most we can do is present it in plain text. Here's the rub: that's exactly how the SmashWiki is presenting this, and there's no other way they could present it. There's an impassable level of redundancy here, and since there's no way around it, I'd much rather that we delegate to the wiki dedicated to the series. Even when it comes to the pages on trophies, at the very least, every series' trophies are split into individual pages on the SmashWiki, whereas this wiki lumps every game's trophies into one article (for each game). Splitting the trophies by series and by game helps with navigation, while having the bonuses on separate pages here only spreads thin the little information that exists. It's not like there's a high demand for the pages on this wiki, if the What Links Here pages for each of the pages is any indication. On the very few moments, should they ever exist, that it is necessary to bring up the templates, all we need to do is link to the SmashWiki, and nothing would be different or loss. As it stands, all we're doing is violating Once and only once across multiple wikis. The other articles can stand on their own due to the numerous differences between them and their SmashWiki counterparts, but the lists of bonuses have no such luxury.

Proposer: Deadline: October 8, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) According to  Coverage, we get full coverage of the Super Smash Bros. games, and considering that these bonuses ARE part of unlocks of the Super Smash Bros. series, especially Super Smash Bros. Melee since you need to unlock ALL of them to receive an unlockable item, I don't see the harm of keeping them in. Furthermore, unlike Smash Wiki, the bonuses here are a basic part of the game that any lay player can easily access and view under the respective options menu or part of a strategy guide so technically, these bonuses aren't any more technical than having articles on the various special moves characters have. Are you also going to advocate the deletion of List of Super Smash Bros. Brawl music and the sequel's music lists, since THAT article has pretty much everything you want to be deleted in it, down to it "being redundant" with SmashWiki. Your argument about "writing stuff that is about stuff in-game" is very weak, many of our stats articles strictly concerning Mario games, especially those concerning collectable content are nothing more than a list or a bestiary: having a list is convenient for readers to read rather than needing to boot up the game and read about it there, and it applies to these articles as well. I think the standards your setting up are a bit too arbitrary for my tastes, and I think considering how we cover every other Smash aspect fully, deleting just these pages would have a breach and hole in coverage. I also think the argument for not dealing with the trophy pages is rather weak too: the only thing keeping us and SmashWiki different in our trophy coverage is pretty much only the split in articles, and it's partly due to how they choose to organize their information there rather than how we do it. I also don't feel the Once and only once argument is a strong argument to apply to multiple coverages, since that's not its intended use: we have a DK Wiki yet most of their information there is redundant with ours and it's also the reason it's not as active as here, plus, we even have two NIWA Pikmin-themed wikis to begin with. Tbh, I'm not comfortable with the passage of this proposal without rewriting the Coverage guideline, since as now, it currently allows this as it is and this proposal clearly breaches it.
 * 2) Per Baby Luigi
 * 3) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 4) - I see no reason to delete them. Besides, it does tie into the Mario universe: "Luigi KO". Now, if this was plagiarized from the Smash Wiki, then there would be significant reason to remove this, but otherwise, per Baby Luigi.
 * 5) per baby luigi
 * 6) Per Baby Luigi.
 * 7) - Our coverage rules say we keep 'em. Unless those get changed, I don't think we're losing these pages.
 * 8) Per Baby Luigi.

Comments
@BL: There's a flaw in your argument: this wiki isn't currently covering literally every aspect of the Smash games. The Smash Taunt characters all share one page, as do the various stage elements and enemies from each stage. Would you rather that all of them have individual pages? 15:13, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Of course I'm not advocating covering literally every aspect of Smash game. I'm arguing that the list of bonuses articles are significant enough to the Smash series to warrant an article here, to the point where an unlockable in Super Smash Bros. Melee is tied to it. 15:16, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * That unlockable being a single trophy that otherwise does nothing but look pretty. Also, considering how few articles link to it, and considering that beyond that single trophy, the bonuses only exist for the purposes of score attack in a single mode that is far from the game's focus, I'm going to argue that the bonuses are not significant to the series. If they're so signficant, why were they mostly ignored in Brawl and discluded entirely in Sm4sh? 15:21, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Your argument of "Doing nothing but look pretty" is a flimsy, subjective argument. In video games, collectables are always treated like a big deal, even if they're just digital images with text in them, and there's a reason game developers hide these types of things behind rewards. Regardless of how important it is to you subjectively, it has significant value regardless, to the point where it is considered a collectible especially in Super Smash Bros. Melee where you need to "collect" those bonuses to receive something. Maybe they're not important to the series as a whole, but I still say they're important enough to receive an article listing them in the respective games they appear in, pering my previous comments in my opposition. 15:31, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I would argue, in turn, that your overly flowery and exagerated praising is equally subjective. There are 293 trophies in Melee alone; arguing that a single trophy that doesn't even have its own article is enough to support two articles is just taking things too far. Why does it matter how much time the devs spent on the trophies, anyways? I'm sure somebody spent plenty of time writing and drawing out the treasures in Wario: Master of Disguise, but that really doesn't mean anything. We're not going to give individual articles to them any time soon. Besides that, your argument supports giving pages for the trophies, but it means nothing for anything that involves unlocking the trophies, which is separate from the trophies themselves (the list of trophies pages don't even mention how they can be unlocked). The bonuses and trophies are entirely relevant apart from a single trophy being unlocked by them. Also, that argument is meaningless for the list of bonuses from the first game, which do not serve a greater purpose at any point. 15:46, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I've talked about how the game makes a deal out of it, mostly because it does, something you can't ignore, and it even keeps a menu dedicated to this stuff in Melee. Official guides also list it as well, if they are there. The collectible articles of anything do exactly the same thing, except it's with gameplay mechanics and bonuses from Super Smash Bros. games. The only reason I brought up the Diskun trophy is because it's an unlockable linked to the collection of these items, so therefore, these bonuses fit the criteria of being a collectible item in the same way trophies are. The same thing applies to list of Super Smash Bros. bonuses, though to a lesser extent. In the end, unlike stuff like wave-dashing or L-canceling or the specifics that SmashWiki talks about, these bonuses are easily accessible to anyone and everyone playing the game. They're gameplay collectibles in the same way the trophies are, and thus, should be kept here in MarioWiki. Furthermore, when you brought up how these Smash Taunt characters are merged into one page, they're still there. Here, you're advocating complete removal of this information on MarioWiki, which is a different situation altogether. 16:00, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * It's only a single section of the menu. It's no more prominent than the options menu. Regardless of the game's trophy theming, the bulk of the trophies themselves can be easily ignored. Regardless, we're talking about the bonuses, which are buried within the menu, sandwiched between other statistics who are given equally low prominence yet are not given separate articles here. Even by the game's standards, the bonuses are not a signficant part of the game, especially to the point where it needs to be covered in exactly the same way as another wiki. And again, this completely disregards the first game, in which the bonuses are not kept track of in any way whatsoever, including the end score. 16:15, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Sorry, but "it's only a single ssection" also seems subjective. Plus, aren't there bonus lists that you need to deal with too? 08:12, 2 October 2017 (EDT)
 * "a single section" in that it encompasses one list of text and nothing more. I also do not know what you're referring to by "bonus lists" beyond what's already been discussed. 13:40, 2 October 2017 (EDT)

Remove rule 4 of the talk page proposals
4. Talk page proposals may be closed by the proposer at any time if each voting option has fewer than five votes.

...Why? Why are proposers given the right of closing their proposals based solely on the number of votes? What purpose does this serve when proposers already have the option of closing their proposal within the first six days? If a proposal hasn't received many votes, why is the solution to completely scrap it rather than try to promomte it? What situation would even exist that would require this rule to be invoked (less than five votes on all sides and more than six days have passed), and even then, why not let an admin close it if there's a valid reason for it? If there's no valid reason for closing the proposal, why let proposers close it at any moment they want? Why only five votes in the first place, and not some other arbitrary number? Why do talk page proposals even have a rule that isn't applied to regular proposals?

This rule is pointless in all circumstances and should be promptly scrapped.

Proposer: Deadline: September 14, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) So you want to remove it. Why haven't you? (it's basically rhetorical.) Per proposal.
 * 4) No reasoning was provided for why the rule was added, and it's pointless anyways (no one uses it), so per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) I think it's better to give the proposer complete control over the proposal, and this rule does just that.
 * 2) - I don't really see a point to remove it. If there's too few votes, it's usually a no quorum anyhow, so rather than just feebly wait, the proposer might just say "forget it" and close it.
 * 3) I don't really see any actual benefit to this it seems like doing something just to do it.

Comments
OK, can anyone tell me the difference between talk page proposals and regular proposals? I know that one type specializes in game-related information and that one type specializes in regular wiki-related stuff, but can anyone tell me which is which? I'd really like to know. 02:40, 8 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Talk page proposals go on talk pages and usually only deal with a handful of pages or sometimes even just one page. Regular proposals go on this page and handle a broader amount of pages or other details that would directly affect policy. 11:56, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

@Lcross: Can you elaborate on what you mean by "complete control"? Would you allow a proposer to make major changes to their proposal the day that it ends? 11:56, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

@Camwood: Is there a point in keeping it around, then? And keep in mind that a proposal only needs four votes total to go into effect; in theory, a proposer could easily cancel a proposal simply because they don't like that a majority of users are voting for something that they don't want. That really doesn't seem fair to me. 12:01, 8 October 2017 (EDT)

@TimeTurner: Thanks for the info. It was really helpful. As for "complete control", I'm saying that the proposer should be able to decide if he/she wants to remove it, and removing rule 4 would restrict them from doing that. If they realized immediately that the said action was done for a reason and that the proposal would go against the action, then they should remove the proposal. If you still don't understand, then do you remember my proposal about merging the Hot Monster article with the Red Monster article that completely failed? I thought they were the same thing, but I immediately learned they weren't. I decided to keep the proposal anyway, because I just wanted to see how it would turn out in the end. 16:09, 8 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There's already a rule that allows you to cancel your proposal without a reason early on, especially with this recently passed proposal. If you learn "immediately" that your proposed change wasn't a good idea, then you're free to cancel it. 00:35, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

@Chester: The danger is that this rule could be used to cancel a proposal solely because the proposer doesn't like the outcome, and not because they had any sort of legitimate reason. If they did, they can inform an admin and close it that way. This is not the kind of power that needs to be given to proposers. Besides, spring cleaning is always good; why bog down the list with a pointless rule? 00:35, 9 October 2017 (EDT)

Changes
None at the moment.

Colons in navigation templates
Here's a simple problem: when it comes to navigation templates for games, some of them include a colon in their name (such as Template:ML:SS and Template:MP:IT) and others do not (such as Template:PMTTYD and Template:LMDM). Unlike my previous proposal about nav templates, this one's more of an issue: it is incredibly annoying for editors when they have to guess whether or not the template they're adding in has a colon or whether the new template they're making should have one in its title. Leaving things as they are just makes things confusingly inconsistent. Given that there's no rhyme or reason for the inconsistency, it'd be best for this to be settled for prevent any further inconvenience. There are two options for tackling this: applying a colon to every nav template that lacks it (assuming the game it's covering has a colon in its name, naturally), and removing a colon from every template that has it. I'd personally advocate not having them in the titles: though it's a part of the game's name, it doesn't convey any information that would help editors recognize the name, making it effectively wasted space. Since these templates will be constantly used by editors, it also helps to compactify them in any way we can. I also highly doubt that there will ever be a case in the future where the acronyms of two games can only be distinguished by the colon in one of their names. It also doesn't hurt that the majority of the (applicable) templates alreadny don't have a colon in their titles.

Proposer: Deadline: October 8, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Apply colons to the necessary templates

 * 1) This is my preferred option due to them being in series, but even if the other option passes, consistency will be formed. Basically, per proposal.
 * 2) - This is my preferred option, but I wouldn't mind it either way. Colons are meant to signify subtitles in the game names, so the abbreviations should be no different.

Remove colons from the necessary templates

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) This makes the most sense.
 * 3) It's just better if the colon is left out altogether, since not all games have them.
 * 4) It's a very small change, but I think it would look a lot better. Per all.
 * Eh, I don't see the harm in this. Per all.
 * 1) Per all.
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) My preferred choice. Most games on the cover don't have a colon if they have a subtitle, so it makes sense to me. Per all.
 * 5) - This is used more than colons anyhow; this would be consistent with the other templates.

Comments

 * Templates with a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:
 * Templates without a colon:

I can see why there is no colon... for a majority of these without colons. There like one time instances, thus why a colon for these. Exceptions, Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware. The 2 Mario Kart are different from the series. Right now, I can see myself going for any of the three options. 16:49, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * A majority of the templates without colons encompass your exceptions. 16:53, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
 * True. It must have consistency. I'll vote for both. 08:59, 2 October 2017 (EDT)