MarioWiki:Proposals

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Create articles on all of the Trouble Center missions in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
I'm proposing this in light of the comment made here(backup link). Same deal as the other proposal, except now we're splitting off info on the Trouble Center.

Proposer: (original concern voiced by ) Deadline: September 24, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) They have in-game names with clear-cut and definitive requirements, with not all of them being simple. Let's give them articles so that the information can be properly expanded. (per all)

Oppose

 * 1) - I feel like the amount of information currently present on the page is enough to satisfy readers and those looking for information.
 * 2) The Trouble Center is mostly this information.

What is Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic?
Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic is, to make a long story short, a game that was altered to become Super Mario Bros. 2; though it did not originally contain any Mario subjects, Shy Guys, Pokeys, Bob-ombs, Birdo, and others all originate from this game. Due to the impact this game had on the Mario franchise, we cover it on the wiki, and I think we can agree on keeping it that way. At the same time, it currently exists in a limbo where we don't know to what extent we should cover it. There was a proposal that decided that covering the game's characters was too much, but at the same time, the article is a part of Category:Games not originally in the Mario series, with an emphasis on not originally; if it's currently a part of the Mario franchise, then we should cover it to that extent. Coverage doesn't even bring up the game, so there's no help there. Still, if we use the sections of the policy page as a guideline, we may be able to decide for ourselves what is Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic. Here are the logical options:

Option 1: It is a full-fledged member of the Mario franchise. If this option is chosen, the game will be considered to be a member of the broad Mario franchise, albeit one that is not part of any specific series (similar to Super Princess Peach). Though it was not a Mario game at the time, you can think of it as having been retroactively included into the franchise. As such, any unique characters, items, and other subjects will also be given individual articles alongside the game's article.

Option 2: It is a crossover with the Mario franchise. If this option is chosen, the game will be treated as a crossover between the Mario franchise and some other nebulous series (it'll end up in the same section as the Mario & Sonic series and the Super Smash Bros. series). This partially relies on the assumption that the Mario subjects within the game have retroactively become members of the Mario franchise and not something that the Mario franchise appropriated. [edit]At the same time, the characters and motifs of the game can be considered to be from the actual Yume Kōjō event.[/edit] Like option 1, all of its subjects will get articles; this just affects which categories it'll be slotted into and other such details.

Option 3: It only contains guest appearances of the Mario franchise. If this option is chosen, the game will be treated as containing guest appearances (à la Captain Rainbow and SSX on Tour). This is very similar to option 2, except the argument now is that the Mario franchise's impact on the game isn't substantial enough to constitute a crossover. As with other guest appearances, the game itself will be given an article, but none of its subjects will be given an article. In short, nothing much is actually affected beyond categories and other such details.

Option 4: It is part of a group unto itself. If this option is chosen, it shall be deemed that the game is not part of the Mario franchise, not a crossover, and does not feature guest appearances, yet all the same, it is something worth covering on the wiki. Coverage will be updated with a short section under "What the Super Mario Wiki covers" that describes the game's historic role in the franchise while explaining why it is being covered on the wiki. A bit of time can also be spent explaining why similar games, such as Panel de Pon, aren't being covered on the wiki. I don't want this to be the "Yume Kōjō" exclusive section, but rather something that potentially leaves some open space for other games should they ever turn up (or Panel de Pon if we decide to give it its own article again). Since it's not a part of the franchise, the game will be treated like one of the guest appearances: only the game itself gets an article. I can provide a write-up if requested, but I think this is clear enough.

Option 5: It is perpetually in limbo (do nothing). If this option is chosen, nothing happens. Well, this proposal will be archived, but that's it.

If you're questioning why we need to decide where this game belongs, then I'll answer that it's better than having a game wrapped up in contradictions, existing someplace where nobody really knows what to do with it. Let's nip this one in the bud, shall we?

Proposer: Deadline: September 23, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Option 1 (fully part of the Mario franchise)

 * 1) We'll say it's been grandfathered in.
 * 2) The debate reminds me of the whole Donkey Kong kerkuffle in nerd circles debating whether it is a Mario franchise game or not, and yet we do include it as part of the greather Mario franchise as well because of its roots that kicked off the Mario franchise. I think the same logic there can be applied here. The fact that Doki Doki Panic even first started off as a Mario prototype before the people who owned Doki Doki Panic requested that their characters be used should tell you that the game was intended to be part of the Mario franchise to begin with and what they were going with this title. The proposal also mentions the legacy of the game to the other Mario titles and I completely agree with its very strong influence it has on the Mario franchise. I think this option is the best choice for coverage purposes.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) - This generally seems the most accurate to how it's treated nowadays.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all

Option 2 (crossover)

 * 1) Doki Doki Panic is Super Mario Bros. 2 and could even share the template - but the Yume Kōjō-themed branding and the use of their family characters does make this version of the game a crossover.

Option 4 (entirely separate)

 * 1) Since it's not technically actually a part of the franchise, this is the next best thing.
 * 2) Per Time Turner.
 * 3) Per Time Turner.
 * 4) - It may not be part of series itself, but it still had some impact on at least one game in the main series.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Started as a tech demo for a Mario-style platform game, but didn't end being a Mario platform game because of various reasons mostly related to Yume Kōjō, yet then it was later reworked to become Super Mario Bros. 2; I think it deserves to be considered its own thing not to force the criteria of inclusions in the other categories too much - after all, only subsequently to its release did many of its elements become part of the Mario franchise.
 * 9) - Since it's based on Yume Kōjō I'd say it belongs more to that than the Mario series. Per all.
 * 10) Taking Doki Doki Panic as a Mario game is like taking Panel De Pon as a Yoshi game. Still, even though the latter's recent removal complicates things, it deserves special coverage. Per all.

Option 5 (do nothing)

 * 1) It doesn't really fall under any of the aforementioned categories perfectly, and I'm fine with the way it's currently represented.
 * 2) I agree with . I'd rather do nothing because the history of this game is very complicated and very intertwined with the Japanese and North American SMB2 games and Mario franchise in general. I think this will take months of analysis weeks of discussion before we can be more decisive and enforce a category. It fits in more than one category, and this proposal wants to converge into one only. One week is insufficient.

Comments
@Doc: How is it being represented now? There's no consistency to it currently, at least not as far as I can see. 18:46, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It's represented as having a vague relation to the series, which it does have. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:10, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We're not helping anyone by saying that it is vague and ill-defined and leaving it at that. Besides, just because the game itself is vaguely defined doesn't mean we should also vaguely define it. 19:12, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The problem is none of the proposed categories accurately describe it. What it is is a Mario tech demo turned non-Mario game with a few Mario elements in it, that would later be reconfigured into a full Mario game. That's the most accurate descriptor. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:32, 18 September 2017 (EDT)

The history of this game is very complicated, more complicated than Tetris Attack, which makes it very hard to put that information in a satisfactory spot on. Why isn't this on the article's talk page? -- 21:25, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I opted to slot it here due to the potential impact it may have on our coverage policy + it's more apparent as a precedent. 21:26, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

I agree with the notion that Doki Doki Panic can now be considered a full-fledged member of the franchise (it is Super Mario Bros. 2 and released a mere one year prior with Mario elements and influence already in it), but at the same time, I'd also say the pesky Yume Kōjō branding technically makes it something else. I'm considering taking the crossover option, but I also noticed that Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix isn't considered a crossover despite the DDR title. Is there a reason for that? LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I don't rightfully know, to be honest. Maybe because, despite the name, everything in it is decidedly from the Mario franchise (besides the rhythm gameplay, although the franchise is no stranger to that)? 21:49, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Then my guess is that there are no established DDR characters to consider it a crossover - but if that's the qualifier, Imajin being the mascot of the festival is enough for me. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

@Wildgoosespeeder: What is exactly is going to be analyzed during those months? 23:53, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * We need a lot more discussion time than just a week. That's what I am hoping for. -- 23:57, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * What are you hoping to discuss during those months? 23:57, 16 September 2017 (EDT)
 * This proposal seems very complicated what you are hoping to achieve. So many options. -- 00:02, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Please answer the question; I am genuinely curious what you wish to discuss for several months. 00:03, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Then I don't have the answer you are looking for. A one-week proposal with vague options just sounds hasty to me. -- 00:06, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
 * What about the proposal is vague? 00:07, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
 * It sounds generalized. Also, we can vote for more than one option. I agree that a lot of the options apply to the game, but this is looking like you want it to apply to one option only in the end. -- 00:10, 17 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Can you elaborate on what you mean by the proposal being "generalized"? Also, what is the issue with letting people potentially vote for multiple options? The point of a proposa is that the community votes on what to do, and I don't see how the multiple options take away from that. 00:23, 17 September 2017 (EDT)

@Mister Wu: Except DDP does contain Mario elements, such as Super Stars and POW Blocks. Niiue (talk) 19:55, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Indeed, but what you're saying doesn't ultimately contradict what I wrote here as a reason - having Mario elements doesn't make it automatically a Mario game, otherwise we should include Sonic Lost World among the Mario games, since it features one of the most relevant Mario species, Yoshis, and a lot of enemies and mechanics from both Yoshi's Story and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.--Mister Wu (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * As an aside to this conversation, perhaps Sonic Lost World could be considered a guest appearance? 20:40, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Only as DLC for one of the two releases. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * That doesn't change things much, we're covering characters of SSB4 who only appeared as DLC, so DLC is still considered part of the game, at least on this wiki. And the Yoshi's Island Zone has some mechanics from the Yoshi games, suach as the flowers changing the goal ring and eggs coming out of the Egg Blocks, so I wonder if just guest appearances is enough.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * There's also the difference in that the Smash Bros games are Mario-related by default, Lost World Wii U is only Mario-related through DLC alone. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:24, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The Mario mash-up pack for Minecraft is also DLC. 21:47, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * And that game is Minecraft, not a Mario game. The box says "Minecraft." Also, it was pre-installed on the disk, as I didn't have internet access when I first played it. Pretty sure. Still different point entirely. We cover Minecraft due to the Mario part of it, but it's incomparable with Doki Doki Panikku, due to its convoluted production history. Face it, it doesn't fit perfectly into any of the categories up above. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I know; as I said at the start, this was just meant to be an aside. 23:15, 19 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The fourth option indeed states that the game doesn't fit any category and thus a new one must be created. If you want a non-Mario game featuring Mario elements not as DLC there is The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening but really, having Mario elements never was an objection to my vote reason in the first place.--Mister Wu (talk) 06:07, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * What I see that as meaning is that it irretrievably has nothing to do with Mario. Even though it's a Mario tech demo that eventually became a Mario game again. It's complicated and the neat little categories here are an insult to that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:04, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Calling my proposal an insult seems unduly harsh. Who am I even insulting, anyways? 14:14, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * The intricate history behind this game. The first option is "It's totally a Mario Game," second and third are "It has crossover/guest appearances from primarily things that weren't even Mario things yet," and fourth is "It's absolutely not a Mario game at all no matter how you look at it." None of these insinuate or can even include "Mario tech demo that became licenced to a different company to pay for it and as such became a non-Mario game, only to become a Mario game again when it was ported." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * What the game started off as is meaningless in comparison to what it is now. Star Fox Adventures started off as an entirely original game, but it's still 100% a Star Fox game regardless of its history. Heck, Donkey Kong was originally created with the Popeye series in mind, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who wants to cover Popeye on the wiki. We don't cover Yume Kōjō" because it happened to start off as a Mario'' tech demo, we cover it because many of its elements became core parts of the franchise, and that is what's relevant to us. Also, you haven't answered my question. An insult is meaningless if nobody interprets it as an insult, so who is insulted by this proposal?  15:11, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * I am insulted by it. I suppose the closest we have to another example is the somewhat infamous "Super Mario 128" becoming Pikmin, if Pikmin was re-released as Super Mario 128 after reskinning. It's entirely complicated, and I am insulted by the fact that you're dumbing the complex history down. Yes, Mario is nothing but a parody of Popeye in conception, but it's different in that "Popeye" wasn't initially intended to be Donkey Kong, and Star Fox Adventures wasn't intended to be a Star Fox game in the first draft. The point is, DOki Doki Panikku was intended to be Mario in it's first draft, was released as-not-Mario, the released as Mario. It's a unique situation brought about by Nintendo's budget at the time coupled with how localization worked at the time. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:21, 20 September 2017 (EDT)

ok, so

1: "insulting the history" of a children's video game is pretty irrelevant to organisational decisions and it's such a bizarre and laughable thing to accuse someone of I couldn't help but chucke while reading it. If someone ever does a This Troper-style series of dramatic readings of mariowiki discussions I'm so telling them to do this.

2: In that Wired interview, Kensuke Tanabe refered to the original prototype as a "Mario-style" platformer, not that it was actually always a fully-fledged game in the Mario universe. Furthermore, going from what we know about Nintendo's development practice, it's possible the prototype was made without any branding in mind and was originally developed as an experiment to see if a platform game that took Super Mario Bros. formula of long scrolling levels and adapting it to a down to up format could be made fun and worth pursuing. It may seem like a nitpick, but considering people are using the prototype's supposed Mario origin as an argument, I think it's a nuance worth emphasizing. --Glowsquid (talk) 22:38, 20 September 2017 (EDT)
 * Saying something intended for all ages is a "children's" video game is also pretty insulting :Y Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, 20 September 2017 (EDT)