MarioWiki:Proposals

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Make "Bestiary" its own namespace
Sure, we have a namespace for galleries, but I don't see why we can't do the same for bestiaries. It's the same kind of "special" article that I would define galleries as as well. Therefore, I propose that we rename every instance of  to.

Proposer: Deadline: October 26, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 2, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 9, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal.  Why not?
 * 5) This is (similar to?) one of the things Zeldawiki does that I think we should too.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Switch sides again, Per Toadette's comment.
 * 9) - Just because we've got fewer bestiaries than galleries doesn't really give much an excuse. This helps keep the wiki more organized than it would be, and that's more than a good enough reason IMO.

Oppose

 * 1) - For galleries it made sense because most major articles had one (there are currently 319); for bestiaries, I don't see the point at all. There are 12 proper bestiaries, I don't think this warrants a namespace by any means.
 * 2) Per Tucayo. I also don't see the benefit of this; it seems like more hassle then it's worth for little payoff when considering the few bestiaries on the page.
 * 3) Per Tucayo.
 * 4) - Originally supported, but considering the number of bestiaries there are, per Tucayo.
 * 5) I don't think we have enough pages of this thing to make it into a separate namespace. Per all.
 * 6) Per my comment below and Tucayo.
 * 7) Per all. I see what's trying to be done here, but it seems overly fiddly considering what is being effected, making this extra work for little reward.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Really?! Per all.
 * 10) - Per all. At least for now I don't see why this is needed.

Comments

 * I might just be a bit dumb, but I don't fully understand what this means or what the difference is. Could you give an example?-- 12:15, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * For example, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga bestiary would become if this were to pass. -- 12:18, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I can only see one problem with this. On every enemy page where the enemy template is placed, transcluding its info from the bestiary page, they look like this:
 * The bolded part is where we're going to get into some issues. It'll be a simple fix, but we'd have to change the link for EVERY page with an enemy template.-- 12:54, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds like bot work. 12:56, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * The bolded part is where we're going to get into some issues. It'll be a simple fix, but we'd have to change the link for EVERY page with an enemy template.-- 12:54, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Sounds like bot work. 12:56, 20 October 2017 (EDT)


 * Could we keep the current names as redirects until all of the transclusions are fixed?
 * 14:05, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
 * @Ultimate Mr. L: Isn't that a standard measure? @Alex95: That was my exact plan for fixing those pages. 17:37, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

@Tucayo: "There's too little" is not an argument in and of itself. It's so that normal readers don't get confused into thinking it's an actual article. 18:00, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * They are articles, though?? What makes them any different from quote pages, lists of badges, recipes, assist trophies, etc.? Bold + italics doesn't make it true. -- 22:01, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Those are actual list articles. Bestiaries are not technically list articles; they are rather pages that are there to have individual sections be transcluded onto actual articles. 22:07, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But they are still articles by themselves. I truly fail to see the point here. -- 22:09, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Again, why do you think that they're actual articles? They are not meant to be. 08:25, 24 October 2017 (EDT)

If we gonna have them as separate namespaces I honestly think the category should expand to all list articles since they are the very similar to bestiaries. I honestly think having a separate namespace for just 12 pages for something very specific is inconsistent and unprofessional.
 * @NSY: Again, bestiaries ARE NOT technically list articles; they are relevant sections of a page transcluded onto other articles, and having too few does not make too much of a difference. Also, could you please elaborate on the "inconsistency" argument? I understand it less so than Tucayo's arguments. 15:10, 24 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Well according to dictionary.com a list is defined as "a series of names or other items written or printed together in a meaningful grouping or sequence so as to constitute a record". Pretty certain an article that has a record of every enemy and their stats falls under that. It's inconsistent because these would the only list articles that got their own namespace, what about the articles listing all the mini games in a Mario Party game, would they also get their own namespace.
 * No, because that's an actual list:
 * Balloon Burst
 * Bombs Away
 * Crazy Cutter
 * Where as the bestiaries are tables:
 * {| class="wikitable"

! Name !! Location !! HP !! Items
 * Bowser || Castle || 100 || Key
 * Goomba || Plains || 3 || Mushroom
 * Koopa Troopa || Mountains || 12 ||N/A
 * }
 * We don't list out the enemies on a bestiary like we do for every single list on this site. The lists are spilt up into categories, like the Species list, and they only have a name that links to it's main article, ONLY. Nothing else about that link exists on the page.-- 17:32, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * However, there are some "list" articles such as List of enemy formations in Paper Mario that are tables, so the lists are not always simply just a name that links to its main article. I agree that bestiaries are like list articles. -- 17:36, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Didn't know that existed. Is that article necessary? If so, seems like that should be integrated into the Paper Mario bestiary.-- 17:40, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I feel that there is enough information for it to remain separate (a proposal to merge it could be created though). Even if that and the Thousand-Year Door version were merged with their bestiaries, there are still other list articles that are more than just simply names (see Category:Lists for more examples). -- 17:55, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There is also List of Sammer Guys. The only reason why it is kept separate from Super Paper Mario bestiary is that it is a list of Sammer Guys fought in an optional thing (though the first 20 are required) and they are too similar to each other. As for another this bestiaries are, they are compendiums which is "a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication (not really relevant to these bestiaries, but I am quoting this word for word)" -- definition found by searching compendiums on Bing. The list of enemy formations and others listed here may be the only exceptions, though.
 * Didn't know that existed. Is that article necessary? If so, seems like that should be integrated into the Paper Mario bestiary.-- 17:40, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I feel that there is enough information for it to remain separate (a proposal to merge it could be created though). Even if that and the Thousand-Year Door version were merged with their bestiaries, there are still other list articles that are more than just simply names (see Category:Lists for more examples). -- 17:55, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
 * There is also List of Sammer Guys. The only reason why it is kept separate from Super Paper Mario bestiary is that it is a list of Sammer Guys fought in an optional thing (though the first 20 are required) and they are too similar to each other. As for another this bestiaries are, they are compendiums which is "a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication (not really relevant to these bestiaries, but I am quoting this word for word)" -- definition found by searching compendiums on Bing. The list of enemy formations and others listed here may be the only exceptions, though.

Okay, this just doesn't make any sense at all. How and why in the world would we make this thing its own namespace if there are only twelve of it on the market right now? I don't get it. 17:49, 27 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Because it's not really an article. Its main purpose is infoboxes to transclude onto articles. Because it is more than just an article, I feel it warrants its own namespace. It doesn't matter how few of them there are.
 * 19:48, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
 * But why does it need a separate namespace to exemplify that fact? 20:00, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Are you suggesting that the Template namspace might be the ideal home for them? (Yeah, it just now occurred to me.) 13:25, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * ...No? 00:11, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

Use Lists for the Power Moons instead of Galleries
Porplemontage has indicated that for the Power Moons on the Kingdoms pages, we should use a GALLERY of images relating to the position of the moon, along with the name that links to either a TABLE, or to individual articles, which another proposal will be dealing with. I firmly believe we should use a LIST instead of these galleries, and here's why:
 * Easier to scroll through on mobile devices and desktop.
 * Far less vertical space take up on the page, especially with kingdoms with 50-100 moons.
 * On mobile the entire gallery is one column.
 * The human eye only needs to move up and down the list
 * The galleries require looking all over the screen and can disorient.
 * Many readers will come for help with finding power moons. The list tells them the name and a short description, and if they need more they click the link for the full thing.
 * The galleries have no way of giving a short description about the moon, and can lead readers to jumping all over the site if they are obtaining info moon by moon.
 * Having a single page open and being able to look back at it when needed is a huge help and time saver.

Proposer: Deadline: November 10, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) per my proposal
 * 2) To clarify: this should apply only to the parent article, NOT the lists themselves.

Oppose

 * 1) See my comments.

Comments
The purpose of this is to determine which way is better for displaying the moons on the kingdom page. Whether they link to a table or article, there will be far more information on the linked page, including the images AND an in-depth description/walkthrough type thing for the power moon. The list will just take up far less space and provide an easy overview for readers.-- 15:33, 3 November 2017 (EDT)

I was going through your arguments, and decided to put my thoughts to them. Overall, I am not for having them as lists due reasons above. 15:49, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * Easier to scroll through on mobile devices and desktop.
 * Not by very much. And if you think about the about of time a section loads (at least on a 3DS (I having the 2DS)), not going to be much difference anyway. Galleries on mobile devices like Nintendo 3DS family in general take long to load, but they usually remain black if there is too many.
 * Far less vertical space take up on the page, especially with kingdoms with 50-100 moons.
 * I compared your mockup on Metro Kingdom layout (81 moons), and your talking about a whole length of the scroll bar on those pages, which is not a lot.
 * On mobile the entire gallery is one column.
 * On which mobile? I use a 2DS, and I don't remember seeing only 1. But that may be due to me using desktop on my 2DS. But, I checked on a desktop mobile view and I only saw one less image per column than in desktop.
 * The human eye only needs to move up and down the list
 * I hear that humans like looking at better looking things. But, it is also something to not overdue.
 * The galleries require looking all over the screen and can disorient.
 * There is still order in galleries. One can easily look at the system and find the one they are looking for.
 * Many readers will come for help with finding power moons. The list tells them the name and a short description, and if they need more they click the link for the full thing.
 * Actually, it's a little quicker finding the moon with a gallery than a list. With a list, readers are going to go to the general area and find it. With galleries, they do the exact same thing. The only difference is that it is found quicker due to there being length. Even in a 1 per column, there are less of the others when this option is done per screen.
 * The galleries have no way of giving a short description about the moon, and can lead readers to jumping all over the site if they are obtaining info moon by moon.
 * Just the moon names may be all they are looking for. I don't know how Talkatoo works exactly due to not having the game. Even still, we should provide the info. But, if they're not looking for the name, they will most likely not go to the kingdom page, no matter if the moons stay in another article or if they all become separated, but instead use the search bar to do it.
 * Having a single page open and being able to look back at it when needed is a huge help and time saver.
 * We already have another page for that. It can even be convinced to keep it even if all are given articles.
 * When I refer to mobile, I am talking about phones. If you're playing the game, it's less likely you have a computer/laptop open next to you looking at the wiki, and more likely you are on a phone. Talkatoo works by only revealing the name of the power moon, not the location, and he only gives you three at a time. If you only want the names to figure it out for yourself, you're fresh out of look with the galleries because you can't avoid seeing the picture. With list it's easier to not read the description. The list is also better suited as it's the exact same way the game itself displays the power moons, as a big numbered list with the names and a minimap to the side with icons indicating the positon on the map of each moon.-- 15:58, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * Oh, a phone. But, not everyone has a phone with the ability to look up stuff. You mention that it is hard not to see the image if it is galleries. There are times when galleries don't actually show the picture, but this seems to only happen if there's either low-broadband or takes a long time to load in general. And even if there is a picture, that picture can help them find the moon, but only if the person looking at the picture can tell where it is. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Compared to descriptions, I have no idea. As for the last point, I don't know how to say something against it and still be in legal grounds. What I do know is that in-game, it shows a picture of the location if you found it. Is there a way to replicate that on the wiki? Or would that be too much? (both questions are only relevant if this passes.) (Scratch that point. I don't think there is especially for long lists. And it would be too much if we found a way to do it.) As of right now, the gallery seem to do the same thing, except in a different way. 16:20, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * I mentioned the use of a map to Steve but I didn't really understand his response so I didn't pursue it. Now, be reasonable, you're not looking up the power moons for Super Mario Odyssey if you don't have a switch or plan to get one, that information is useless, and if you have that kind of money, you have a smart phone, even if it's low end. A smart phone is a necessity for life at this point, not because of addiction or obsession, but because of work and family, especially work! Anyways, you would want to avoid the picture because the moment you see it, you'd recognize where that is, and you lose all the fun of working out where it is based on the name. I know we don't worry about spoiler's here, but it makes for a better presentation for people who need some help but don't want to be outright told where it is, and for those that do, we have that information too. Also keep in mind that there are 103 moons for Mushroom Kingdom, a page that has existed on the wiki since 2011 and serves a purpose for multiple games in the franchise. It would be completely overrun if the gallery were applied to it.-- 16:35, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * Galleries have visual aspects. This means that people generally find them more attracted. Lists usually have things pretty close to each other. The rest Porplemontage said for me. As for the last point, Mushroom Kingdom doesn't have either. But, it doesn't have a gallery either. But, if you're still not convinced, Porplemontage also mentions that have lists for longer articles. With this proposal, it removes the possibilities of galleries instead of list no matter what, even on shorter articles. 17:00, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * That's not how this works. This proposal is only for the power moon lists/galleries on the kingdom pages. The ruling wouldn't effect other situations.-- 17:02, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * That's your argument against what I put? Something I already know? If this passes, is guarantees lists for those articles. Since it is support or oppose, the oppose option doesn't necessary mean that we will stick with galleries for all of the articles that are going to be affected. It means that we won't stick with the lists for all of the articles that are going to be affected.
 * As for the point that I didn't cover in my previous comment, you explained it almost exactly as it is, but sometimes standards aren't always what some people do. But, it's hard to know due to preferences of others. So, generally speaking suits well. 17:21, 3 November 2017 (EDT)
 * I misunderstood what you meant. It sounded like you were suggesting that every article would have galleries replaced with lists, not just the kingdoms. My mistake.-- 17:27, 3 November 2017 (EDT)

Don't Relate Mario Creatures to real life ones as fact
This is my first proposal, forgive me if it's messed up. Also I couldn't find a good place for a proposal of this fashion, so I placed it here. Unless stated by Nintendo or other first party sources, Mario creatures should NOT be related to real life creatures. A prime example would be Koopa Troopa which some would call a "Tortoise". Another example would be Plessie a creature confirmed to be a dinosaur but not a confirmed species. Thus I propose that we can not assume a creature's species and label it as such. A example of why this issue can be false is Dorrie a creature we related to something in real life, but was confirmed to be something of its own. Also the Mario world is a world where platforms can appear out of thin air, and I think it's best that we try not to apply science to many aspects of the world including the creatures. To fix this I propose that no creature can be primarily labeled as anything it is not refered to (or at least not in the infobox). Any existing pages with this issue should be fixed to only include confirmed information. However a creature can still have it mentioned if they closely resemble something from real life in the Trivia or Physical Description. Also some creatures like Yoshi for example is classified as a yoshi and a dinosaur, so he has multiple species, but the yoshi part takes priority as more specific and direct. Wingo is my ideal vision, with it being in his physical description (although I would alter it) and his species is inarguably "Bird". I think I'll too in this proposal again some day but reworked.

Proposer: Deadline: "November 5, 2017, 23:59 GMT"

Support

 * 1) Per Proposal
 * 2) I believe this is what led to the misclassification of Rocky Wrench to be classified to be a Koopa when heated debates throughout the years on the Rocky Wrench talk page led to the discovery that the translation was correct about it being a turtle. I think fans made the jump to Koopa when no official source made such a connection between Koopas and turtles.

Oppose

 * 1) I think scientific accuracy and common sense are important. Ergo, this proposal kinda revolts me.
 * 2) A lot of Mario species are clearly based on real world animals, and pretending otherwise feels detrimental to me.
 * 3) There's a difference between speculation and implication. Speculation is theorizing something like Rosalina being Mario & Peach's daughter. Implication is Koopa Troopas' resemblance to turtles. Per Niiue.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) It was Nintendo which started saying that some enemies were real life animals, notably Lakitus being turtles in Super Mario Bros.. What we are doing here by relating to real life animals, when done properly, actually helps us understanding some design choices and is also a fascinating insight into the design of the characters themselves. As an example, did you know that Wingo has a color pattern (yellow beak, black feathers, orange legs) close to that of an, which is indeed a crow, the species mentioned by the developers? Not to say that these relationships are sometimes so evident that they are even noted by people following Nintendo on social media, the example of Glydon being relevant. If you want, we can discuss replacing "is" with "is based on" or even "is likely based on" when Nintendo doesn't directly confirm it or when it is more appropriate, but removing those relationship altogether seems a bit excessive to me.
 * 6) Although I'm iffy about making definitive statements about a character's species since that veers on heavy speculation and certainty (for example, this: "Wingo is a crow who...") I don't support getting rid of the connection altogether, for reasons people have already stated. I would at least keep "based on *real life animal" or "designed after *real life animal*. Like, "Loftwings are birds that are designed after shoebills..." rather than saying they ARE shoebills.
 * 7) Per all, especially BL.
 * 8) The whole Mario franchise is based off of two Italian plumbers who eat mushrooms to grow big and rescue the princess of a kingdom from a giant turtle dragon. That may sound weird, but everything but the giant turtle dragon, which is Bowser, of course, is more than real. Italians, plumbers, heck, even Italian plumbers for the sake of it, and princesses are most definitely objects that exist in real life. I don't understand why we have to distinguish Mario creatures from real-life ones if this is the case. And heck, that's not even getting into Super Mario Odyssey. That game literally involves Mario interacting with the humans! I think there is more than enough evidence to prove that Mario characters and creatures are definitely related to real-life creatures.
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
Didn't this proposal already happen? 02:27, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Different proposal. This is saying don't note similarities in articles proper. For instance, not be able to say Cluckbooms look like Roosters in the articles, and also take the category away. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:29, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

How about keeping the information as trivia (ie. so and so creature closely resembles a real-world species), but removing it out of the introductory paragraph? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:15, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Call a spade a spade, I say. We may be overstepping our bounds to definitively say that x character is literally some real-world species, but it'd be cumbersome and counterproductive to shove any mention of real-world animals to trivia sections, especially when their origins are obvious. 13:25, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

It would make sense to at least mention it in the physical appearance. Although the main point of the proposal is not to say it isn't a real life creature, but to say that we shouldn't list it as fact. Chat Man 13:40, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
 * I think we should recheck the proposal and see the main point, we of course tend to use simple wording assuming that readers acknowledge that "is" when talking about ficitonal characters can't be literal - even the "is" of Nintendo when relating to real life animals isn't literal of course. We can discuss being more strict in the wording if you think the current wording could be confusing. The classification is also another beast, as we have to accomodate official information and ease of navigation together. Since the main text of the proposal is rightfully changing - it is allowed and due when the first version didn't catch the actual intention - I would like to know what we are aiming for.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

@WildGooseSpeeder Again, Turtle TRIBE refers to Koopas, not just any turtles. Mister Wu proved that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2017 (EDT)
 * Well, the story is pretty complex, actually, as the wording of the story of Super Mario Bros. allowed various translations, not all of which were actually consistent with what the following games showed us. This is the actual text:
 * キノコ達の住む平和な王国に、ある日、強力な魔法を操る大ガメクッパの一族が侵略して来ました.
 * Essentially, now that we know what are the Japanese naming conventions, we can finally see what the manual said:
 * One day, the tribe of the great turtle Koopa who uses powerful magic invaded the kingdom of the mushrooms who live in peace.
 * but since 「の」 has various meanings and the translators couldn't simply know what would have been the actual depiction of the various characters, races and so on, this still technically appropriate translation ended being the translation found in the manual:
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * but since 「の」 has various meanings and the translators couldn't simply know what would have been the actual depiction of the various characters, races and so on, this still technically appropriate translation ended being the translation found in the manual:
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic.
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)
 * And so the concept of Koopas being the various turtle-like beings was born. In Japan, they eventually released, but that was made in 1991 and it was too late for America and Europe. So far, none of these countries even remotely tried to rectify this. The German translation of the Encycloepdia Super Mario Bros. in the story of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels even consistenly translated as Koopa-Familie (family of the Koopas) not only 「クッパの一族」, but also 「カメ一族」, Turtle Tribe (「一族」 is more commonly translated as family)!--Mister Wu (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2017 (EDT)

Make indenting comments during discussions an official rule
You know, when I was just discussing with my good friend Black Lightning when he reminded me to indent my comments, he told me that indenting comments during discussions was an unwritten rule that the wiki abided by. I started to think, why not make this an official rule? So that's the point of this proposal, why not make indenting comments during talk page discussions an official rule? The rule will state that all participants in a talk-page discussion must indent their comments, but after around five to seven colons have been used to indent comments, the bar will reset to zero, and the cycle goes on and on until the discussion ends. This would be a great rule to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of all talk-page discussions. Proposer: Deadline: November 11, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) I'm sticking with my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) 1) I strongly disagree with the cycle resetting to zero. It would be better if it just stopped and stayed at seven. 2) It wouldn't really increase the efficiency of talk pages since pretty much everybody follows it anyway. You can't solve a problem that isn't there. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 3) "Good friend" is really stretching it. "Acquaintance" maybe. Nothing personal, but, as my page says, I don't do internet friends.

Comments
THANK YOU! It FINALLY did what I wanted it to do, which is show up as a black header and not a bunch of code. Anyway, you don't need to apologize, Black Lightning. We've all got our opinions, and no one can take them away from us, even if their life depended on it. In the end, that's all that matters. And by the way, I meant "good friend" as in quite literally, "good friend". I didn't mean to use the specific Internet term. 22:56, 4 November 2017 (EDT)
 * Not sure what's with that glitch, it seems to happen every other time a new proposal is made. Encountered it at my first proposal and its shown up form time to time ever since. It fixes itself as long as there some code under the section. As for the friend thing, I mean I haven't met you face-to-face and therefore do not consider you a friend. But this really isn't the place for this conversation.
 * 23:00, 4 November 2017 (EDT)

Help:List <- Closest thing to a written "rule" I can find. 22:04, 5 November 2017 (EST)