Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl/Archive 4

Porky's Machine
The article should be changed because I don't think that's Porky's "Absolutely Safe Machine", isn't that the big sphere with the window on it? Not the one pictured.

Comic Kid

Question Mark?
This has already most likely been discussed, but why on Earth are we not making pages for the newer moves that have been discovered? We know what they do and the Dojo!! confirmed them. Even if we don't have pictures, we should get them soon enough… there's nothing to hide on Smash Bros. Dojo move and final smash-wise. Para Yoshi  Wahoo!  09:59, 26 January 2008 (EST)

We only know the names, so that's all were including. Wait for 6 day, k. HyperToad ;)


 * If you know what the move does, you are free to make the page. But like Hyper said, we (or at least I) don't know what the moves do. If you do know their effect you are welcome to ake the pages. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions&middot; Paper Jorge was here at 10:30, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Okay, I understand. Thanks! [[Image:Shineget!.png|18px]] Para Yoshi  [[Image:Parayoshiicon.jpg|20px]] Wahoo! [[Image:Mommy!.png|30px]] 14:01, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Sorry for double-posting, but what if I have a [brawlcentral.com reliable source] that has told me what the moves do (I have played a demo, therefore knowing Pit's and Ike's moves already)? Can I make pages for those moves if they come from Brawl Central? [[Image:Shineget!.png|18px]] Para Yoshi  [[Image:Parayoshiicon.jpg|20px]] Wahoo! [[Image:Mommy!.png|30px]] 19:45, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Characters select screen complete..?
In this video from Gametrailers appears the following screenshot with the character selection screen. I think is a very bad fake, specially if u look the 2D artworks along the 3D official arts... but, indeed, i put the pic if it's necessary for something... we can considere it real? fake?--Caith Sith 08:55, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * FAKE


 * It is very much fake. If you look at all other sources, they feature Zelda and Sheik in the same selection window. Also, there's no reason for them to completely rearrange the characters on the screen when you unlock more. - 09:14, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ok :P Delete it if you can...--Caith Sith 09:27, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Why? We'd better be prepared if others come and claim it is real. - 09:30, 27 January 2008 (EST)

And look at Luigi! That is one of his Mario Party Artworks. Torngentleman2 At last, we have the real pic.--Caith Sith 11:44, 30 January 2008 (EST)

At last, we have the real pic. --Caith Sith 11:45, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Release Preparations
As seen above, fake rosters and information is exploding on YouTube, which is a major problem. The Dojo will most likely not post the full cast including unlockables after the release, which makes the internet our only source. I propose full-protecting the page a day before the release to the day after which prevents the worst spam and gives us time to get reliable sources.

This is the latest official roster: This is a reliable source: http://www.brawlcentral.com/images/news/2008_01_22(2).jpg This is FAKE:

How to identify a fake roster? Fake rosters are commonly pretty easy to determine, as creators are not professionals and forget certain tidbits. Please keep a clear head when determining fakes out there. - Do not edit the list of characters before we have determined the credibility of your source. All new information goes onto the talk page first. - 13:54, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * 1) The image is shown from front, not filmed from the screen like #2, and there is no actual "movie", like a player moving the character selection hand over the icons - also, in the still image, no player has selected an unrevealed character. This makes creating fakes more easy.
 * 2) Fake rosters which dozens of character scale down the icons of the official roster to make all their surprises fit in - this never happens in the actual game. We have our official starting roster revealed in #2, and it is unlikely that those icons will scale down as more characters get unlocked.
 * 3) Fakers use wrong images - the above fake image #3 shows Zelda alone in her box - while the official roster has Sheik in the same box as well. If you can also make out past official artwork images in the roster, it is fake as well - currently, all Brawl characters have an image in a stance they have not shown before, all poses are unique to Brawl. If the picture of a "newcomer" looks cut out from previous Nintendo art, it can't be correct. Check out for Brawl's graphical style, it's unique and very detailed. In fake #3, Bowser Jr. on the top left doesn't match with this style, his colors are too intense.


 * Yes, we better look out for fake pictures. Also, I support the full protection. It's just going to get spammy and fake-y. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;Contributions)&middot;

Maybe full protection could be a good idea, but we should definitely unprotect one day before JPN release. About the fake image and rising speculation, it would be best to describe it here. On a side note, when removing Template:Newsubject, please update the article as well, removing terms like "will be" and "upcoming" in the articles with the template. 15:46, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Template:Newsubject has a note attached to it which is underlined and says that the template  stays  until the article has been updated. So within the first days, we shouldn't remove anything.
 * Also, I said it should be protected at exactly the time of the release, where they will be the most spam and unconfirmed info. Before or after the protection wouldn't make much sense. - 15:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * I believe, ET USA, from noon on 1/30 to noon 1/31 is good for a full protection time. In Japan that's like at 5-6am 1/31 to 2/1. 16:28, 27 January 2008 (EST)


 * On second thought, it doesn't seem like a good idea. We've never had to take these many precautions for any pre-game releases and I think we are overestimating the potential vandalism for this page. Semi-protection is enough to keep those new spammers out, at least for a while. But it is definitely not worth removing other regular users right to expand this page in fear of vandals. And if it does get heavily vandalized, we can always sort things out later. I know there will be vandalism that day, but not as much vandalism as you guys are thinking about. 19:45, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * That's possibly true. I wouldn't be able to do it after Wayoshi's plan anyway, it would be around midnight for me. - 09:50, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Wind Waker character design
It's pretty obvious in here that they have designed a Wind Waker character - just leaves the question whether playable or assist trophy, unlikely cut-out when he mentions it now. - 11:57, 28 January 2008 (EST)

I think is a Link alt. costume.
 * Well, it's not like I'm going "ZOMG Wind Waker link confirmed", they are talking about regular trophies after all, and this whole interview wouldn't reveal something big, they're not serious enough to do that, they're laughing all the time. But they have some very interesting tidbits, like confirming Jeff as Assist Trophy, or that they wanted to include Final Smashes in the N64 Smash Bros. It's definitely worth reading. - 12:50, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * I wouldn't suspect yet that it is anything more than the Wind Waker Link trophy we saw. If you noticed, it was cell shaded and all of that good stuff, so that could be what he's talking about.  Still, I would like to, in the near future, read Iwata Asks and create a separate "Developement" section for the article.  19:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * Put this stage and character on the list.
 * Without a serious source, no. - 14:52, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Wait a second…
Brawl central says SSBB will cover 128 blocks! That can't be right! Can it? Para Yoshi  Wahoo!  19:47, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Unfortunately yes. 20:08, 28 January 2008 (EST)


 * This means that they put WAY too much stuff in the game. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>

Honestly, your right Jorge, there's so much stupid stuff that really isn't needed. HyperToad
 * Well it must certainly be good. Also, could someone answer my question in the first topic? [[Image:Shineget!.png|18px]] Para Yoshi  [[Image:Parayoshiicon.jpg|20px]] Wahoo!</tt> [[Image:Mommy!.png|30px]] 22:26, 28 January 2008 (EST)

MARTH's in BRAWL, NO doubt YO
See here! http://gonintendo.com/?p=34382#more-34382 And here, at 1 45 http://gonintendo.com/?p=34381#comments

There's no denying with that footage that he is indeed IN and likely playable. P.S, Ness also :lol:Fixitup

I also obtained this you guys...[] Fixitup
 * Yo, thanks for this, Fixit! This is great news, thanks for helping us out! =)

It's gold!! P.S Although I beleive the Luigi and Marth stuff from before is real, I believe this image may be fake. Doesnt mean ness isnt in though... [] Fixitup
 * Oh well, still helpful. It does look like those three are in the game, regardless of if that pic is fake or not. This is great news, thanks!

More Luigi stuff. Lol, you're gonna run out of words DP. :D [] [] P.s Fixed links Im working my fingers to the bone here! Fixitup

Is this new? [] Fixitup

Hey, i noticed in that last screen shot sonic wasn't in this but Olimar is, either this is fake, or you hafta unlock him...


 * Sonic and Snake have been confirmed to be unlockable.

So far Ness, Luigi, Marth, and Capatain Falcon are confirmed to be unlockable characters.Fixitup
 * Where was the Captain confirmed?

Baby, it'll rock your mind! []I'll retrieve the C. Falcon imagery in a sec, YO. Fixitup

Currently having issues finding the C. Falcon screenshot, but here's some Falco to make up for it. [] Fixitup

Falcon- PUNCH! [] Fixitup

Wow, you seem quite excited over this. But I'm not surprised, this is big information! So many articles to edit! So much information to add! Thanks for the images, Fixit. Your a real big help. =)

Snake parts. :P [] [] [] [] [] [] Gotta go now! Fixitup

Ok, thats all i found.
The really complete roster: http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9917/brawlrosterhp8.jpg Two more thophies: http://i29.tinypic.com/263iv7m.jpg

A lot of more pics:

Luigi http://kjm.kir.jp/pc/img/51822.png http://www.imgup.org/iup547311.jpg - lucas y ness http://i27.tinypic.com/2s6pmoi.jpg ness's smash? http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg181/xblah/ssbm/1201607599015.jpg --- Luigi http://i29.tinypic.com/2qd367q.jpg final smash? http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg181/xblah/ssbm/2duce4k.jpg - ganondorf http://ranobe.com/up/src/up253897.jpg - capitán falcon smash final? http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg181/xblah/ssbm/1201609443700.jpg

-- lucario http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1047/up253926no9.jpg

Mr.G&W http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7163/up253939yi1.jpg smash final? http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg181/xblah/ssbm/1201606859663.jpg

All taken from there. Is in Spanish, but all the info is in spoiler. Just click, because all are new pictures -no text info-.--Caith Sith 08:10, 29 January 2008 (EST)


 * If that's really the complete roster, where's Sonic and Jigglypuff? --Trogga 11:17, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * Unlockables?--Caith Sith 11:21, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * But isn't Snake an unlockable? --Trogga 11:26, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * Huh...yes, but whatever... 7 min of free brawl spoilers that confirms a lot of things: characters and more -> click!--Caith Sith 11:45, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Remove Ganondorf
Sorry to burst you're bubble, but seeing his face in a screenshot doesn't confirm him as playable. HyperToad

OF COURSE he is playable lol and :|


 * Heh. He might be a boss, you know. Also, this is GREAT! Japanese is already leaking info. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>
 * Lucario, Ness, and Jigglypuff are IN. Everyone else (Ganondorf, G&W, ROB, and Luigi) looks good. PLEASE LET LUIGI BE IN...

Toon Link is in!




 * AWESOME! Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>

Bomberman?
In another video (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=vtWxwsR3oB4 please see here), we can see another character select list... this time is the same as always, but with Sonic added and... Bomberman. Maybe fake, i dunno, but... well, i put it here.



In any case, with all the info leaked today, we have A LOT OF WORK with this game, specially updating templates.--Caith Sith 14:55, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Look at Dedede's image, it looks wrong. HyperToad

I'm fairly sure that Bomberman image is fake, it's look like it was photoshoped out of a 3d bomerman game. HyperToad

WW Link, G&W, R.O.B
Found this stuff, Yo.[] Fixitup

Conjectural Info
Lately, multiple Users have been adding conjectural info into articles for "Supposedly" in-game characters. Some good examples are Ridley, and Lucario, which was deleted. I personally believe all these leaked screenshots to be fake, but we don't know what's real and what isn't. As such, I feel unless these are confirmed, we should add no conjectural info. Also, I've made fake screenshots just like the ones people are posting right now millions of times on some old forums I was on. They were convincing and really easy to make. I've had multiple people, namely the users KingBoo and McDimentio give me "leaked" videos that supposedly show characters to be confirmed. You can believe that they are real (They aren't. >_>), but please don't add any info. KingBoo has not done so, but McDimentio created a Lucario article and everything. Anyway, conjectural info = No go.

I know Jigglypuff was confirmed in a leak, so where is it? 18:06, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Proof?
I beleive that all this news is crap and care to give some source?

"Proof"
So far, the ONLY characters confirmed by Nintendo not seen at the Dojo are [http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/21/nintendo-accidentally-confirms-lucario-ness-jigglypuff-for-bra/ Jigglypuff, Ness, and Lucario. They were accidentally leaked in a Wii demo video at the Japanese Dojo site.] Also, Ness is seen in the opening of the official Brawl game released in Japan. For now, let's treat all material not done BY NINTENDO as crap.
 * Marth appears in the opening too, and Luigi appeared on a youtube video, were King Dedede transforms him into a trophy.Javier12345 20:34, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Green Hill Zone Stage CONFIRMED
http://www.wii-brasil.com/arquivo/0332513001201630138.jpg Here it is
 * Isn't there also a YouTube video with this stage in it? I can't remember.  19:54, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Wolf... Star Wolf
[] Fixitup
 * This isnt fake. Wolf is in Brawl ^_^.
 * Hopefully. I still think there's gonna be more than 35 people tohugh. Seriously, unlocking everyone through the story modes only?Fixitup

I think that's fake, he has the same FS, WTF? Let's just wait untill tomarrrow, untill then everyone just stop HyperToad 07:35, 30 January 2008 (EST)


 * Well it could be Fox's alternative costume, which I haven't seen. And stop? Stop what? Stop adding real information? ...NO. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>


 * 1) No Jorge, I meant STOP ADDING LINKS! It's too confusing.
 * 2) It has it's own name, so if this is real, it's a new character, alter. costumes don't get special names, not een Peach's daisy costume.
 * 3) I'm sure that there are going to be more character then we think, maybe even going up to 50.
 * PJ, Pokemon DP made us wait to make an article for Peach Blossom until it was announced on the site a day later. I think it has something to do with the conjecture stuff.  I personally don't mind... especially when it's going to be "announced" in 24 hours, but HyperToad has a point. :( I don't like fights.  16:24, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * PJ, Pokemon DP made us wait to make an article for Peach Blossom until it was announced on the site a day later. I think it has something to do with the conjecture stuff.  I personally don't mind... especially when it's going to be "announced" in 24 hours, but HyperToad has a point. :( I don't like fights.  16:24, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Who is this guy?
He is on here (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=vtWxwsR3oB4 please see here) Who is that guy when it shows a image of a spaceship thing in the desert,then it shows a big robot guy with purple skin and a spike on his head?(note:the images that I'm talking about are the 9th and 10th images the guy shows)(note2:it shows this guys images after it shows the image that said Falcon Punch Comfirmed) Luigi-Tron 3000
 * The link you've posted is broken, there's no YouTube video with that address. - 10:43, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * I just fixed it User:Luigi-Tron 3000
 * I didn't find any unknown character in there. Check this page, there's some info about Subspace Emissary bosses. - 10:53, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Note that I'm not talking about Porky User:Luigi-Tron3000

True rooster?
(http://images.wikia.com/ssb/images/3/31/Brawl_roster.jpg) Luigi-Tron 3000 Maybe... HyperToad
 * Yes, it is. Is uploaded and in the Brawl article.--Caith Sith 12:00, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Don't add it unless you have proof! Where'd it come from? HyperToad

yes, it is, wwe dont have a REAL proof, but yeah, this is the offical rooster

That's contridary, if you have no proof, then how do you know it's offical. HyperToad Not that I don't believe it, but we need prove, or it might get removed.
 * This rooster was seen in various youtube videos. So yes, its official...--Caith Sith 12:47, 30 January 2008 (EST)

It doesn't matter if it is real, obviously all the secret characters wouldn't be unlocked using only sse and c modes. There's room for another row. Fixitup


 * LOL! Rooster? It's called Roster. :P Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>
 * One thing I noticed about this is that the series tend to line up vertically (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser on the left... the sub-Mario's on the next column, etc. Anyway, that alone makes it seem real, because most fakes have just slammed things together.  But I'm kind of late to the party saying this.  13:59, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Lucario stage and Jiggly's final smash
http://pokemon-safari.com/sitio/noticias//data/upimages/col_lanza.jpg

P.D: I don't know why Jiggly is a a giant...--Caith Sith 14:27, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's supposed to be Jigglypuff's Final Smash...though I don't see that image. - 15:29, 30 January 2008 (EST)

This, I can say looks fake. Fixitup


 * Isn't Jiggly FS, i think it's a Event

Luigi's Mansion
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vdMVPS_CQL8

The Luigi's Mansion stage in Brawl. Luigi pwned. ~ TheGreenFire

Who is this guy? Part 2
A space ship mode of him http://ranobe.com/up/src/up253909.jpg

A front view of him in Robot mode http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2227949227_3cf377bcb8_o.jpg

MetaKnight fighting him http://ranobe.com/up/src/up253911.jpg

So who is this guy?

Luigi-Tron 3000


 * An unnamed boss. Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>
 * The Japanese name reads "Gareomu". - 10:24, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Bowser and Gonnondorf teaming up?
http://www.wii-brasil.com/arquivo/0187929001201622089.jpg An unlikely duo.
 * THe image doesn't display. Also, the duo isn't unlikely, they're both antagonists. - 12:45, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Chraracters
Shouldn't we wait before adding every single character? Myabe there playable, maybe not.


 * They were all confirmed by the various images of the character selection screen, which isn't fake as above - there were various sources with the same screen, and videos of selection of the characters as well as gameplay of them. For example, there is this video where all playable characters appear in a single event match. - 15:50, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Character selection screen image
I was adding Image:Brawl_Brawl.jpg to the Group section of this page, but Fixitup says "we don't need it". A pretty useless statement, per se we don't need any images in the whole article. I just thought that it is an easy explanation of the selection choices for the Pokémon Trainer and Sheik, so that we don't need to state it at an unclear point in the article's text. I don't think it's useless, it's fine there. Don't worry about too many images, the text will get more now. - 15:43, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * My vote is for Cobold: it was a good image to show that the game is more in depth about switching characters than the last one, and I fail to see how the image had a "rediculously long" explaination. 16:11, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * I agree that there were grammatical problems in the description, but that's something that can easily be fixed. - 16:22, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * Wow, I think it's pretty obvious you could've come to me about this before crying wolf. The image IS useless, and so is it's description. The article has areas for text for a reason. Images are not so you can explain something that takes up a ridiculous looking amount of room in the thumbnail. If we were to have an image to describe every bit of news like this, the article wouldn't have text anywhere except in images. Wow, wouldn't that be great?... Fixitup
 * Fixitup, you're forgetting that we don't have every image from the Dojo. 15:57, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Useless? Why useless? It is currently the only image I see with a thumbnail description that deserves the name "description". Most images are images of characters, stages and items which aren't thumbnailed anyway. Why should it be useless. What would be your suggestion of where to put the content in the text instead? - 16:37, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * WOW! If you were confused as to where you should place such information, you could've simply asked. Here, I'll do just that for you! :B Fixitup
 * I think you misunderstood. I was actually saying that I don't think there is any good place except for an image description - it's not too long either, not on my resolution. Looks fine now. - 17:14, 1 February 2008 (EST)

New Stage
Here, Sakurai mentions a Port Town Aero Dive stage from F-Zero. But is there actually any information on this stage? With the recent leaks in the game and stuff, there should be at least some information on this stage... Paper Jorge ( Talk&middot;</tt>Contributions)&middot;</tt>
 * I saw gameplay on a stage where the player unlocked Captain Falcon, but I don't know its name, and I've not player F Zero GX enough to identify it. - 08:12, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Secret Fighters
We need a seperate subsection in the characters section for secret characters. That way, spoiler-haters won't accidentally read about secret characters.
 * Yeah, I was already suggestion changing it from Veterans - Newcomers to Default Characters - Unlockables. Though I would suggest a completely new layout for the character section, like the one of Super Smash Bros. Melee, it's much better. - 16:43, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Okay, so I started the layout from the Melee article, but... I kinda destroyed the whole thing in the process.
 * It's all in the history for reference. - 18:33, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Cobold: If you could do that, that would be great. It's very hard to read as it currently is.  18:53, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Mwahaha- Feel my wrath, it is complete. Feel free to improve. I just gotta go feed myself before I die. Fixitup UPDATE- Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa! All of the sudden, bars/lines for the chart are dissapearing! What's happenin'??Fixitup
 * Good job, Fixitup! I see little room for improvement, except for any video footage of the non-DOJO!!-announced characters using special moves.
 * Dag, yo, Fixitup... you're always reliable! Thanks a bundle!  20:52, 1 February 2008 (EST)

All Characters revealed!!!???
That doesn't seem like that is every single character. It just doesn't seem like what Sakauri would want as the FINAL list. Or am I overreacting? Is the final roster really revealed or not? Para Yoshi  Wahoo!</tt>  18:08, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * From what we've heard, the All-Star mode was unlocked by unlocking all characters seen in the roster. I also saw an event match which featured all playable characters. - 18:24, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * I don't think those are all the caharcters, like why would there be an animal crossing symbol if there is no playable Animal Crossing character, and what about Krystal, someone will voice her, has she been confirmed as assist trophy or what? Javier12345 20:42, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Krystal and other members of the Star Fox Team appears in various conditions and talk with Fox. Like Snake's Codec with Mei Ling, Otacon and Campbell. This is Fox special taunt... --Caith Sith 20:52, 1 February 2008 (EST)

I saw a youtube about Ashely in the brawl. And Waach this video to see if it's true. GiGi25
 * ofc is fake -_-
 * What do you mean, "ofc"? - 17:04, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Sonic and Snake?
On the page it says that Sonic and Snake are default characters, well in this pic, it differs


 * We're going off of the character page on the Dojo website: the character page now differentiates between veterans, newcomers, and secret characters. Go check it out.  21:16, 1 February 2008 (EST)

ofc snake and sonic are secrets, sakurai just showed them to do merchandising
 * All sources we've seen on the internet showed us them as unlockables. When looking at the Dojo page carefully, there is now a header "secret characters", but the other section is not labeled "default characters" in return. - 12:38, 2 February 2008 (EST)

They cant be starters if a pic on brawl doesnt show them in the character sceneAlphaclaw11 12:54, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, whatever you guys want. I don't care at all, but was just answering Dry Bones' question.  13:55, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Spoilers tag
Should we add a Spoiler tag to warn non user? Princess Grapes Butterfly

i think that so
 * The question is, though, how can we keep them from seeing those pictures? Is there a way we can condense 'em and let users click if they want to see?  18:25, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Delay!
In the Trivia section it states that Geno was planned to be in the game.(Which some user caim that it caused the delay.) I think this is fales. Any soures that prove this?. Also on X-play they stated that the game was delay do to Wi-Fi. Princess Grapes Butterfly 19:17, 2 February 2008 (EST)