Talk:Ice Snifit

Coincidential Similarity
Due to the Japanese names being different and the remake of SS using the original design, these are probably intended to be different things, just as Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha Plant are. As for attack, I only own SS+BM, which I only just got yesterday and as such haven't reached them yet, so I don't know the exact details, though I know Snifberg the Unfeeling can shoot icy spiked balls.....so are the attacks between the the two enemies listed here any different from each other? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:06, 17 December 2017 (EST)
 * Interesting scenario... I'm not sure how to proceed either. 23:08, 17 December 2017 (EST)
 * This situation is probably much closer to Flamer Guy and Pyro Guy rather than Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha Plant. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:50, 19 December 2017 (EST)
 * Except Pyro Guy's name didn't revert in later Yoshi games. (The "Flamer Guy" name was likely dropped due to "Flamer" being a derogatory term towards homosexuals, anyways...) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:11, 10 July 2018 (EDT)
 * It does in Japanese, and the design is slightly different (its body isn't visible through the flame and its hands are different in Paper Mario) just like Ice Snifit. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:01, 10 July 2018 (EDT)
 * The situation surrounding Pyro Guy was a situation I was considering questioning a while back...then dropped when I saw the appearance in Tetris Attack. Since the TA designs are based off of official art of the time, there's likely a picture of "Flamer Guy" from the Shogakukan that looks like the ones in Paper Mario, as there are apparently several Shogakukan YI images we lack. Also, those notes regarding the Japanese names weren't there when I initially said that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:04, 10 July 2018 (EDT)

Split MLSS Snifit and YWW Snifit
Due to different Japanese names and color, they should be split.

Proposer: Deadline: October 5, 2018, 23:59 GMT October 12, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to October 19, 2018, 23:59

Support

 * 1) Per.
 * 2) Look different, seem to act different, and there is an 85+% chance that the YWW ones were neither inspired by nor intended to be the SS ones.
 * 3) The different Japanese names and attacks alone would not convince me, given the different genres of gameplay and the already mentioned Pyro Guy situation, but what gets me is that these two don't even look all that similar. The YWW enemy is blue and more closely resemble traditional Snifits, while the ML:SS enemy looks more like a Snorunt wearing a Snifit mask. ML:SS Ice Snifits didn't even have arms until the remake, which came after YWW, and even then, they still retain their other design oddities and barely resemble the YWW enemy. Given the large gap between the releases of the games and the YWW Ice Snifit's name simply being a direct translation of its Japanese name, it's difficult to argue that the localization team was intentionally tying it to the ML:SS enemy.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) Per above similar observation with Flamer Guy / Pyro Guy, who keeps its English Paper Mario name but Japanese Yossy Island name in Yoshi's New Island, and no one seems interested in splitting.
 * 2) Besides the Japanese name, the only difference between them is color. This doesn't seem like a good reason to split especially when there are regular Blue Snifits merged with the Snifit page.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) While I agree with the big possibility that the Yoshi's Woolly World developers never intended to directly reference the Ice Snifits from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and its remake, this scenario is not only like the one LinkTheLefty described, but also like splitting the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Run Purple Coins simply because they have slightly different functions, or, on a broader scale, splitting Banana and Banana Peel when we know that in all games they appear in, Bananas are treated interchangeably. It's more complicated than it sounds and potentially opens up a can of worms for other scenarios. P.S.: the only reason Pink Coin was split was because they both have drastically different functions from one another.

Comments
How much does a proposal last? -- 10:49, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Talk page proposals last two weeks. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:55, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * @Link about your vote, i noticed that the Pyro Guy lacked the mask strap in Tetris Attack and Paper Mario. Also, for the name, same goes to the Ukiki. Yoshi's New Island has internal filenames, maybe the Pyro Guy shares the internal name with Paper Mario name? -- 11:03, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * If I recall correctly, it still goes by "Flamer Guy" in Tetris Attack, though I could be wrong; however, it's not the only Shy Guy in Paper Mario to have an alternate name, as Spear Guys go under the name Yari Dancer, or Spear Dancer, in Japanese (contrast Dancing Spear Guy, which is Yari Yari Dancer). Ukiki is an odd case because most of us thought the Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 64 monkeys were separate enemies until Nintendo started using the former's design with the latter's name. As for internal name, it is a romanization of the original (bobo_heyho), not Paper Mario ' s one. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:20, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * @Link Speaking of levels, we should put Yoshi's New Island levels's Japanese names. -- 13:07, 21 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Hmmm... I also think their behavior is different. -- 12:39, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * They both seem to wear a parka... But the other one has a red parka, and attacks differently. Anyone else to vote?
 * I'd say the behavioral differences aren't relevant enough to split. They spit out snowballs and ice chunks in an RPG, and then have ice breath in a platformer released 12 years later. Enemies have different attacks in RPGs all the time. -- 13:22, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * On top of that, the recent Nintendo Direct trailer for Yoshi's Crafted World has what appears to be Slurp Guys, so I wouldn't say it's completely out of the question that its predecessor would also borrow an RPG enemy. Really, if we split Ice Snifit, we might as well want to split Paper Mario ' s Pyro Guy and Spear Guy for similar reasons. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * PM Pyro Guy does attack differently, as it doesn't spawn fireballs all over while jumping like a maniac. But anyways, SMW2 had a far more definite influence on the franchise as a whole content-wise than SS did, particularly given the fact that PM had other SMW2 elements in it. Also note the gap in years between the release of the GBA game and the Wii U game, and compare it to the smaller gap between SMW2 and PM's releases. The fact that these Ice Snifits look nothing alike and continue to use the old design in the remake makes this nearly-definite. You might as well try and say that Aqua Kuribō and Goomdiver are the same for being Goombas in diving helmets. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:33, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't say they look nothing alike. As of the remake, the only difference is that the SS Ice Snifits don't have the belt and mask strap. Color is a moot point when regular Snifits have a blue variant. -- 18:45, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The parka design is completely different. Note the hood direction as well. And the difference in attack. One spits snowballs, the other spits icy mist. The only similarities are that these are Snifits in parkas, and having the same clothing category and incidentally sharing an English name that the translators probably didn't realize shouldn't make them be considered the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:54, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Then how do you explain Bananas generally having different appearances in the games they appear in? It's just too complicated. 23:09, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * A banana is always intended to be a banana? Also, that's a real-world subject, which gets a different kind of coverage than with enemy derivatives. Just because they happen to be vaguely similar and share a name in one languages doesn't mean they should be listed together. There is almost no way that the YWW enemy was a call back to the SS enemy with:
 * A different name in the language of origin
 * A different attack
 * A different appearance
 * A different function in general
 * And the only thing being the same is the category of clothing they wear and base species. Having these merged is like:
 * Having Aqua Kuribō merged with Goomdiver for being diving-helmeted Goombas
 * Having Terrapin merged with Koopatrol for being armored Troopas
 * Having Black Boo merged with Bomb Boo (those ones actually even look similar)
 * Having Tanoomba merged with Tail Goomba for being Tanooki Goombas
 * Having Walleye merged with Wallop for being sideways-moving bipedal Thwomps
 * Having Mr. Kipper merged with Deep Cheep for being green Cheeps
 * Anyways, unless you agree with all of the above or think that the YWW enemy is certainly a reference to the minor enemy in the extremely niche game of another franchise, I'd suggest not opposing this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:58, 22 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The major difference with all of those is that none of those enemies have ever shared a name in any language. -- 13:52, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Sharing a name in one language that isn't the language of origin doesn't matter. That is a strawman argument. You might as well want to merge Para-Goomba with Para-Goomba for both being flying "Goombas" with the same name. Unless you want that too, don't oppose this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The "Woolly World" designs are more abstract and clearly aren't 1:1 to their original counterparts (just look at Clawdaddy, Koopas, and the Blarggs to name a few), and I don't remember splitting hairs about that one time Goomba shot its fangs out or when Fuzzy was suddenly parasitic (among numerous other oddities in RPGs). The two games ultimately cross genres as well as change art styles, so all you truly have to go off of is the Japanese name. Mind, there does appear to be a genuine localization mistake in the initial PAL release, as Nep-Enut was called "Giant" Nep-Enut, but that was corrected by the NTSC release, so they could have easily fixed the apparent Ice Snifit error if they really desired by then (and, if we're being technical, the English builds of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and Yoshi's Woolly World both predate the final Japanese versions). As for all those enemies, most of them are total leaps of logic: Koopatrol has a spiked helmet distinguishing it from the similarly-armored Terrapin, Bomb Boo is obviously explosive whereas Black Boo is decidedly not, Tanoomba is based on the Tanooki Mario while Tail Goomba is based on Raccoon Mario, Walleye is spiked and Wallop can jump, and Mr. Kipper long predates Deep Cheep and isn't comparable at all; the only one that I might give is that Goomdiver could be inspired by Aqua Kuribō. At least Ice Snifit has something in common with Pyro Guy and Spear Guy (each once had a different Japanese name in an RPG), but you must know that your enemy examples are purely stretching it. And as far as the "extremely niche" idea goes, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga reportedly sold more than Yoshi's Woolly World (both original releases and counting their remakes), and the (mainstream) Mario and Yoshi franchises being separate entities just isn't a very strong argument when there was and is blatant overlap between the two. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:36, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * I'd say it matters at least a little bit when this is an English-speaking wiki. Also, that's clearly a different case, since the Paragoomba from Mario Clash is a Galoomba and has spikes for some reason. There's several important factors at play when making merges and splits like this, so you can't just say "well these have the same name so why not merge those too". -- 16:08, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Actually no, it doesn't matter even an ounce. Creator's intent, not localizer's accident. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:21, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * That's just your opinion, not official wiki policy. Otherwise this wouldn't need a proposal and would immediately be split. -- 17:41, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * For the record, I do agree that language of origin (usually Japanese) is a fairly valid indicator of "creator's intent", as localizations (often English) do tend to be prone to name changes mostly due to translation differences and such whims; however, just because the original language is generally more consistent doesn't mean it's entirely immune to name changes, as we do observe those names change over time (certain Yoshi's Island and "big" enemies come to mind). It's important to also take other factors into account rather than strictly rely on names alone, and in my estimation, the ones for Ice Snifit are circumstantial. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:00, 25 September 2018 (EDT)

(starting indents over) That it is, but what is fact is that the only similarities between these two are tenuous at best. As for my "extremely niche" comment, that was more in reference to the developers and....more off-kilter humor than the demographic. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Maybe the Banana example is too complicated How do you explain this proposal then? Same scenario, no? 17:59, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Items are in a different boat from species entirely, as with those, it's more a generic thing that may or may not be the same. I'd be more comparing to the Silver Coin debacle. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

@LTL As for the Pyro Guy example, I think it's worth noting that the Japanese names for it mean the same thing. The Japanese names for Ice Snifit don't mean the same thing as each other, as snow and ice, while obviously connected, are not the same. And if you want to go the route of "snow is a form of ice," that's technically true, but it's not what people think of when one says "ice." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:10, 25 September 2018 (EDT)

@Waluigi except that their appearance in the remake wasn't moved to the YWW design. -- 13:15, 25 September 2018 (EDT)
 * The Ice Snifit in Bowser's Minions is definitely closer to Woolly World than it was in Superstar Saga though. Plus, as previously pointed out, the Woolly World designs aren't always exactly the same as the normal enemies either. -- 17:31, 25 September 2018 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't say that "having definitive arms" makes it "much closer," by any means. Still has the orange cone with few other features. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Well it's the normal Snifit shape now, and not just an almond with feet. -- 19:11, 25 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Normal Snifits don't have the bell-shaped robe bottom or the vertically-oriented hood. You more described a Sneed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:15, 25 September 2018 (EDT)
 * @Schmeltwick, true. Ice Snifits from Yoshi's Woolly World were at 90.5% chance that they were not intended to be those from Superstar Saga.
 * Yeah, they're both Snifits, and both have "fluff" around their mask to make it obvious it's a parka. But, those in Superstar Saga wore red like a normal Snifit, lacked the belt, and the shape of the parka is more of a real one, while those from Yoshi's Woolly World had their parka ressembling their normal counterparts, had the belt, and were blue instead of red. -- 14:30, 29 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Similar thing with Snow Guys, the Yoshi's Story variant appear to be unnamed and may not be intended to be the same. -- 14:00, 6 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Until we have more proof on those, they should stay merged. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2018 (EDT)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what their name is in the Japanese version of Bowser's Minions? -- 16:36, 12 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Maybe it's also Snow Mucho? -- 07:51, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * I'd look up a Japanese lp and compare the spelling. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:20, 13 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Seeing that Blaster looks like a Bill Blaster, but has a different Japanese name and acting, it is possible that Nintendo never intended the Pyro Guys and Flamer Guy looking similar (being coincidental) and that the Ice Snifits were both intended to be separate.