Talk:Mario Kart (series)

Merging
I think we should merge all the Mario Circuits, Donut Plains, etc, especially in SMK, into one article, and describe each course in one. That way, we have about five to six longer articles than possibly twenty stubs. Old courses in MKDS will not be included, and battle courses will appear at the land but not specified by game in the template. Wayoshi 19:04, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Make it so. H K

Courses
Though the LM rooms are still ongoing, Mario Kart (esp DS) is the next big project I've been thinking about. We need articles for each course in the series, as there are near 100. A template and/or category (Racing Courses) would be required. I myself copied the stastics for each of the 36 karts in MKDS and will be adding those now in a table. Anyone who's played any one of the MK games is invited to create an article for a racing course w/:


 * Game(s) it's in
 * Description
 * Layout
 * Shortcut(s)

Good luck! Wayoshi 16:54, 31 July 2006 (EDT)

Do you ever stop? H K
 * Lol, I don't, notice how I hatched this idea while playing it while I was gone. :) Wayoshi 16:59, 31 July 2006 (EDT)
 * Oh yes, this includes Battle Courses! For those, no shortcuts, but sometimes there's little things you can do to give yourself the upper hand (ie Block Fort, MK64 version, you can pop a balloon by landing on top of an opponent)

I hatched my toad template idea while asleep. No kidding, it came to me in dream. H K

Changing the name?
Is the "(series)" part of the title really necessary? No game is actually entitled Mario Kart, so I see no reason for it having to be there. Dodo

Well,it would be weird if you take away mario kart from every game,it would be 3ds or super. -Rosalina1234

I think so. If the new one for the 3DS is called "Mario Kart", I will change it back. And Wikipedia made the series page "Mario Kart" so we should change it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Kart (Diddy Kong vs Bowser Jr, was Waluigi vs Wario back then)
 * Wikipedia isn't purely a Mario encyclopedia, and has less information than us concerning the Mario series. Look, if we have a page titled Mario (series) and Paper Mario (series) why shouldn't the same apply to the Mario Kart series ? Koopalmier 16:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Mario Kart 64 doesn't have heavy themes from Super Mario 64
Except the castle of course, which other MK (And many Mario games perhaps) games after possessed (Peach Circuit - GBA, Mario Circuit GCN, Peach Garden DS) ... heck it would probably appear in the Wii version as well.
 * And what are you trying to say related to this article? I see, you're right. - 09:13, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

Non-Mario
Since when are all the not Mario character confirmed not to appear in Mario Kart Wii?

Arcade GP?
Why make the arcade gp part of the series? I mean, nintendo didn't even make it, Namco did, and there are non-mario charators in it, plus it doesn't follow tradition in courses, cups, or items, so they should just put them in another articall, called 'Mario Kart Arcade GP Series' User:Yoshi fire

MEH! that makes no sense. because it's Mario Kart Arcade GP. 7:31 4 June 2013

Places!?
What the? Is the Mario Kart series considered a place? By I mean a place to drive your karts and such? Comments are welcome here. It feels like the places list is imcomplete unless an answer is told...
 * A game series is not a place where one can be, I mean, it's something abstract. So I'd say the Places category is wrong here. 06:40, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, I had recently checked the article's texting. There is no such category entry I'm afraid. That means there is a template that automatically qualifies the articles as "A Place that anyone can go to". I believe that it is the race courses template. I might have to do some hard work on this, if possibly if I have to place the Category: Places in the other articles. Time to fix the template.
 * BTW, in an unrelated statement. There are categories that are not belong here, items? games? These categories!? Great... Possibly a better type of mess... >_>
 * Oh, haha, this looks like work. Though I'm wondering whether "Games" is really wrong for this. Okay, there already is "Game Series", so it's redundant. 07:01, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Main vs. Arcade
I was just wondering: is it really fair to separate the games into these two categories? There's no backing text from Nintendo that separated MKAGP from the console series. If we're going to separate by platform type, we'd want consoles and handhelds to be separate as well. Thoughts? 16:27, 26 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, you see, those games, first of all, are made by completely different people. If you read the "Iwata Asks" for MKWii, you will notice that every single time they refer to MkWii as the 6th game of the franchise. They don't even mention the existence of the Arcade series. I concluded they we're excluding it(arcade), not just as on a different system, but a rather entirely different series based on the Main franchise.

Characters
Do we really need a ? beside Mii Outfit A and B in MK3DS? Seriously, there is a 99.9999999999999... (considering that Miis are in the game) that they without a doubt won't appear.

Maybe they will... Miis will be on the 3DS. Weird, but whatever.

Maybe we can use Polari or Luma. Or maybe they will make a baby Rosalina. Who knows? -Rosalina1234

Is Mario Kart 64 really the first appearance of Donkey Kong in Mario Kart? I thought the current Donkey Kong (from the N64 era onward) was the same as the original Donkey Kong Jr, with the original Donkey Kong being the modern-era Cranky Kong? So technically it's the same DK all along, right? Ekolis (talk) 02:41, 11 May 2014 (EDT)

Fire balls in MK:Wii???
Where are they???
 * Do you mean Podoboos? They're in Bowser's Castle. A Bowser statue inside also breathes giant fireballs.
 * No, they appear as a CPU item, in a competition: in N64 Bowser Castle Dry Bones uses infinite Fireballs that moves like Green Shells. This don't happens in normal gameplay though.

Mirror Mode
This article has nothing on mirror mode. It is redirected from Mirror Mode but it doesn' have anything on it. I read through the whole article. Should we add something about Mirror mode?

Regarding Mario Kart 64, is the engine class really 100cc in EXTRA? For some reason, it feels more like the 150cc speed when I played it. 07:48, 5 November 2011 (EDT)

Characters?
I saw all characters have ?'s in Mario Kart 7, but Nintendo confirmed on a Japanese site that only two new characters will be added. So why wouldn't the ?'s change to X's?

Since the game hasn't come out yet, we're not sure how many secret characters could be in the game. It is unlikely that the official Japanese website would have the whole roster uploaded. As well, there will be two NEW characters (as in characters that haven't been playable before), so I think you meant hidden characters, which likely won't all be on the website yet. MarioComix 19:59, 26 October 2011 (EDT)

I meant that four new characters will be in the game, and twelve returning (+ Miis). All of the earlier playable characters are listed in the table, and those with ?'s arn't playable again, as all twelve returning drivers are confirmed already. I don't know how to explain it more clearly

I know what you mean, it's just that the characters on the website might not be ALL of the characters, know what I'm saying? As in, there may be more hidden characters that they don't want us to know about yet, and these hidden characters may be returning characters. MarioComix 18:47, 27 October 2011 (EDT)

Change request
The infobox says the classic logo was used from Super Mario Kart to Double Dash!!. However, it was actually used from Super Mario Kart to Mario Kart Arcade GP 2. I changed it myself, but Wii browser issues with large pages accidentally deleted half the page, so I had to undo the edit. Can someone re-add it back in? Or should it not be re-added because of the Arcade titles being seperate from the main series? 20:06, 6 December 2011 (EST)
 * Thanks

Wait! Weight!
I can't figure where to put the mid-light and mid-heavy characters from Mario Kart 7 in the weight section. Can anyone please figure this out for me? Thanks,

Trivia Section Image
Should we keep the pic in the article? Since the trivia policy says to implement trivia info into the article, I say it should be attach right under the character list, but I still think it doesn't look right. What are your opinions?

If it is the picture featuring the eight classic playable characters, then I believe we should. These 8 characters have been seen as icons for the series, and that image makes effective use of portraying them. The trivia section is a decent place to once again keep it (as some of the trivia mentions these 8 characters while the trivia section itself is quite long to fit it). I honestly don't see what's wrong with keeping it in that section to be honest.
 * Well I say to put it under the character table because that info is already mentioned in the table but not as an image.

I couldn't see a good place to fit it directly under the character table; however, I did place it within the weight categories considering that the image is capable of representing both the characters and weight classes (additionally the section is related to the characters as well in general).
 * PERFECTLY PLACED! Well Done!

Split ghosts from game page
Recently, I've noticed that the Mario Kart Wii and Mario Kart 7 pages are huge, especially with the ghost charts. So I was thinking that we could split the normal and expert staff ghosts on their own pages re. game to lower down the size for some browsers like the 3DS or iPod Touch. Also, it will help with the organization.

Proposer: Deadline: June 17, 2013, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) I get this proposal, but it is not needed. Probably ⅛ of mobile browsers, if not less even, cannot handle all the data.
 * 2) How many stubs is this going to create, these articles if created will have next to no content on the,.
 * 3) Per NSY.

Comments
Oh my god, how times do we have to repeat this: short articles =/= stubs!!!! 23:19, 5 June 2013 (EDT)

THANK YOU!! Now we see why its pointless...

We could theoretically put all the ghost data onto one page, but giving them all their own pages is a tad unnecessary.
 * I was thinking like this:

List of Mario Kart Wii Normal Staff ghosts … and so on with the other ghost races, including expert staff.
 * Personally I think it should be List of ghost data in the Mario Kart series with normal staff at the top and then expert at the bottom.
 * Yoshi876 has a point. But like, keep Mario Kart Wii ghosts separate from Mario Kart 7 ghosts.  Just keep the games separate.
 * It'd be structured like most lists of with the first game, then the second etc.

Split elements from Mario Kart (series)
I've been looking into this article and I noticed how this article is mainly talking about the Mario Kart games Nintendo developed and very little about the Arcade GP series. This mainly talks about the home console and handheld Mario Karts, and it's not because we lack that much info on the Arcade games. Here's my reasoning why these should be discussed separately:


 * The Mario Kart Arcade GP series was designed by Namco. It may not seem significant, but Nintendo allowed them to have a free hand in the series which is how it is the way it is.
 * Mario Kart Arcade GP plays in a much different manner than the other Mario Kart games. For example, you have only a set number of items per race, and the items you get do not depend on your current placement. You also get prize and special items which are exclusive to the Arcade GP games.
 * The courses are widely different. They do not have a set standard of 3 laps, and half of their courses are just another area of the same course. This obviously does not apply to Mario Kart games.
 * Power-sliding is in a different name and the technique to use it is much further than any game in the home series.
 * The article itself even seems to state that the Arcade series are separate and most points often exclude as how different the series are. It also rarely gives info on it, staying to the home series. Though it is a flaw to the article, the alternative of making a separate article for Arcade GP should be considered. Case in point: "Mario Kart Wii is the 6th game in the mainstream series"
 * Nintendo does not really acknowledge the games. None of the Arcade elements (with the sole exception of the Thundercloud) ever make it in the home series, and they name their 7th Mario Kart game, Mario Kart 7, even though it technically isn't the 7th game in the series as they intended.
 * Adding items from the Arcade GP series will only serve to clutter the article further (yeah there's a bunch of those), but it's the only way this article can be complete. The other way of making a separate article is a much better solution.

Proposer: Deadline: October 26, 2013, 23:59 GMT

Split

 * 1) There's so much different about them, and trying to explain the differences on one article would be painful. i.e. This is a staple for the Mario Kart series BUT in the Mario Kart Arcade GP series it's this
 * 2) Per SuperYoshiBros. In a way, the Mario Kart Arcade games are a sub series to the Mario Kart series. We can always mention it on this page, just link it to the arcade series.
 * 3) Per TPP
 * 1) Per TPP

Leave as it is

 * 1) It's still part of the series, so the page shouldn't be split.
 * 2) I see no reason as to why these should be split because both series share two things in common. 1. The name Mario Kart and 2 the fact that they are about Mario and friends driving around in Karts.
 * 3) Per Mariofan5000. Why does it need to be split? there only 3 games!.
 * 4) - Per all, they are all the same series. That has been the norm for all series pages and it shouldn't be changed just because a couple of games are noticeably different from the rest.
 * 5) – Per all.
 * 6) Per Tucayo.

Comments
@Mariofan5000: please convince me that you even read a single line of my proposal before you make a weak oppose 10:40, 13 October 2013 (EDT)


 * He's made his opinion clear, and he's entitled to that opinion.


 * 17:13, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
 * And that's the sad thing about opinions 13:29, 14 October 2013 (EDT)


 * @Marshal Dan Troop: But there's Pacman characters, those aren't Mario characters are they?


 * He didn't say Mario characters, he said Mario and friends 16:29, 15 October 2013 (EDT)
 * By the way, Super Smash Bros. and Mario & Luigi had only three games and they still get their own series article. So this point isn't valid.
 * By the way, Super Smash Bros. and Mario & Luigi had only three games and they still get their own series article. So this point isn't valid.

@Randombob-omb4761: I don't think that your reasoning is vaild. We have articles for the Mario Baseball series and the Mario Strikers series, despite both of them have only two games.-- 05:24, 19 October 2013 (EDT)

Main Series/Arcade List split
Reading this page, I personally think that the lists of games and characters looks messy. I was thinking that we should list the Arcade games in their own list after the list of main games and do the same with the character list. The character list especially looks really messy will all these characters that are exclusive to the arcade series. Thoughts? --SinnohMasterGalaxy (talk) 03:27, 24 April 2014 (EDT)
 * They are still Mario Kart games. It would be silly to have a sub-page for games in a series that are released on a different platform. -- bluereddarkorangegreenpurple
 * I'm not suggesting a new page, just two different lists to keep the main series and Arcade series a little separate. --SinnohMasterGalaxy (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2014 (EDT)
 * I think it looks fine the way it is.--Vommack (talk) 15:53, 24 April 2014 (EDT)

Mario Kart 8 Characters
The Mario Kart 8 cast has not been fully revealed, as we all know, Nintendo likes keeping secrets, so shouldn't we keep the Mario Kart 8 characters as ? until the game is out and we have proof these characters are not in the game?--Rosapuff (talk) 10:52, 15 May 2014 (EDT)¬¬¬¬
 * Um, yes it has. Some people actually own the game now (like the press and bloggers and stuff such as GameXplain) and this is the final roster. Unless Nintendo is really keeping a secret or that there is unannounced DLC. Still, GameXplain said there's nothing else in the embargo sheet so that means there's nothing else not revealed yet. 11:59, 15 May 2014 (EDT)
 * Still, Nintendo is known for keeping secrets and surprising people, besides, there has been some details that may suggest there are more, but just in case, we should keep them as ?--Rosapuff (talk) 10:32, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

Template removal?
I can't find something that is unclear... do you think that we can remove the template at the top of the page?

The MK roster is messed up!
Hi. I just want to say that for many months ago, the MK roster is REALLY messed up! Wikipedia had it organised much better ages ago! Take a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Kart#Characters Sarantis (talk) 16:59, 12 August 2015 (EDT)

Glide and Underwater mechanic
Just a suggestion and a question, why there is not a article about the gliding and underwater mechanics that appear in Mario Kart 7? We have a anti-gravity article about this mechanic.-- 18:51, 29 January 2016 (EST)
 * Good question. On a related note, I have a talk page open on Spin Boost for creating a new article about Spin Boost Pillars. -- 01:16, 1 February 2016 (EST)

Gold Mario & Tanooki Mario appearing in GP DX
A note should be added next to Metal Mario in the Character Table signifying Gold Mario appearing in the game as a palette swap, just like Ice Luigi, Fire Mario, Strawberry Don etc. Tanooki Mario is also in the game but the table doesn't reflect it. Also Paratrooper should have a tick under the Double Dash column but for some reason there isn't one. One other minor problem is that in the table, GP DX is refered to as "GP 2 DX" when it shouldn't have the 2 in the title. 185.156.173.178 05:12, 8 January 2017 (EST)


 * Good finds. If these are still here the next time I'm free to edit, then I'll try to clean up the section. MarioComix (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2017 (EST)

Why was the Mario Kart page changed?
I just want to know, because I don't like the change. It feels more like a watered down version of the page, as it removes the techs, the items, the engine classes, etc. Gold Luigi (talk) 09:51, 10 February 2017 (EST)


 * I think the old page felt more like a technical list and not like a readable article. However, those sections could certainly be reincorporated. MarioComix (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2017 (EST)
 * Oh, I guess that makes sense. I'm not sure how they could include the older Mario Kart page though. Gold Luigi (talk) 09:54, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * I have an idea on how to incorporate these sections but I'm far too busy at the moment to work on them. 12:49, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * That's good to know. I was supposed to write this on 12th February normally, but for some reason, I wrote it today. Gold Luigi (talk) 09:04, 15 February 2017 (EST)

Gold Mario confirmed as Palette swap in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
Could someone add the note next to Metal Mario's tick in the column? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE2VniKmEVE&t=1m01s


 * I'll get right to it. MarioComix (talk) 03:58, 10 March 2017 (EST)

Battle Mode
Since Battle Mode has changed throughout the series, and there's so much to talk about, should we create a page for it? Mimikyu (talk) 11:38, 14 March 2017 (EDT)
 * In my opinion, since the main page does not go into much detail on it, it would be a good idea, especially since the goal of Battle Mode is not as intuitive as GP or VS (race to the finish as the 1st person). MarioComix (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2017 (EDT)

I've started the page if anyone would like to help. Battle Mode (Mario Kart) Mimikyu (talk) 09:20, 15 March 2017 (EDT)
 * Yes I support your thoughts, I think it should have a page for it has much new information throughout the Mario kart series. User:Mario Kart 7 Rules (talk edits) 09:26, 15 March 2017 (EDT)

Mario Kart Super Circuit VS mode
This page inaccurately says the game's VS mode was limited to Yoshis on SNES tracks. That was only in one-cart play, if every player had a copy of the game all tracks and characters were playable.

Create a separate table for Mario Kart Tour-exclusive characters
As a mobile game, it's bound to get new characters every month, meaning that eventually the table will eventually be filled with mostly Mario Kart Tour-exclusive characters. Additionally, since a good portion of them are existing characters in different outfits, it'll start to be filled up with mostly those types of characters. Would making a separate table for MKT-exclusives help clean it up? 72.203.118.154 20:11, March 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I think for this page, removing the "reskin" types exclusive to that game outright would be the best thing. Most of them just have (identifier) at the end anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, March 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Are you referring to the footnote? I agree it's a long footnote, actually. (I was going to debate that for consistency's sake, since we listed out all the variants in MKAGPDX, to keep the list of variants for MKT, but then I noticed MKAGPDX says "palette swaps", so that's fine.) I shall shorten that footnote now, then. MarioComix (talk) 21:11, March 9, 2020 (EDT)

Consistency needed
With the recent disagreement regarding the status Mario Kart Tour, it’s important to remind that with regards to material from Nintendo its status is the same as Super Mario Run: both the site from Nintendo Co. Ltd. and the site from Nintendo of Europe put it in the list of the main games. It makes sense from their point of view, both Super Mario Run and Mario Kart Tour are developed by Nintendo (and the help of Bandai Namco is also seen in Mario Kart 8). So we either move Super Mario Run among the mobile games in the Super Mario series page, reflecting what we already do for ports and remakes that are in a separate section, or we put Mario Kart Tour among the main games again, the current situation is simply inconsistent.—Mister Wu (talk) 05:37, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
 * I feel like it's worth noting that Run and Tour are both mobile games, as they're developed for and released on non-Nintendo consoles, compared to every other main series game in either series (excluding Super Mario Bros.). It's kind of similar to how we put the arcade games separately, because they're released on non-Nintendo consoles (being developed by Bandai Namco isn't relevant, since Super Circuit was developed by Intelligent Systems). MarioComix (talk) 18:26, September 6, 2020 (EDT)

Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario
Even though they are considered separate characters from Peach and Mario respectively in Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, should Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario really be listed as unique characters while all of the variations from Mario Kart Tour aren't. And I'm not saying the costumes from Tour should be listed separately from their base character, but I'm just saying that the costumes aren't alternate costumes but rather separate playable characters for their base character in MKT either, so what's the difference? -- 9/13/2020 - 6:10 PM EST
 * Mario Kart 8 doesn't have any variants excluding characters who share a slot on the CSS. Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach have their own unique emblem, voice lines, and animations, making them more unique than half the roster of both Mario Kart Wii and Double Dash!! (where a lot of partners shared animations). The variants in Mario Kart Tour are counted as variants due to one of the following criteria: naming style of "character (variant)", e.g. "Mario (Musician)"; sharing emblems with the base character; sharing certain animations (like the "rocket start" animation) or all animations with the base character; and sharing voice lines with the base character, such as when selected. Basically, the concept of variants only exists for characters in Mario Kart Tour, and is not to be applied to any games beforehand. MarioComix (talk) 00:32, September 14, 2020 (EDT)

Perfect Attendance
If Arcade GP VR is counted for perfect attendance, why not MKLive: Home Circuit? I mean, it's another installment in the series. And don't say it's a spinoff, when the arcade ones are spinoffs as well! In that case, shouldn't only Mario and Luigi be the only people to appear in every installment?
 * I've made the change. MarioComix (talk) 17:31, October 25, 2020 (EDT)

Ultra Shortcuts
I’m currently working on an article on the Ultra Shortcuts (lap-skipping glitches) which appear throughout the series. In order to explain how they function, it is necessary to briefly explain Mario Kart’s checkpoint system. I have tried to upload a couple of checkpoint maps to use as reference, but they were deleted (understandably) as they were deemed to be too technical and irrelevant. I thought if I explained myself here, it might seem more reasonable.

Also, regardless of the checkpoint debate, would my article even be accepted or would it also be deemed irrelevant?
 * I'm not sure what you mean about the "checkpoint system", but I think this sort of thing would not warrant its own article. It may be suitable for the glitch pages for each game. 11:42, April 24, 2021 (EDT)

Point taken. I just thought that since the Ultra Shortcut is a pretty significant glitch, and appears in most of the games in the series, it could warrant its own page.

The checkpoint system: each course has multiple checkpoints and key checkpoints, each of which have to be reached in the right order to complete a lap. However, it is possible on some tracks to skip from between KCP 0 (the finish line) and KCP 1 to the final KCP, and complete a lap, as the checkpoints immediately in front and behind the checkpoint you are in are always activated. Hence, Ultra Shortcut.

Splitting the game modes
So I was looking at this page, and I noticed that there are no article links for any game modes for the Mario Kart games except Battle Mode. So I tried searching "Grand Prix", and it redirected me to a section of the Mario Kart series article (more specificially, the Modes of Gameplay section Mario_Kart_(series) (also, it specifically says "'Time Trial' redirects here")). And I was thinking, "Why does Battle Mode have an article, but every other game mode doesn't?" I mean sure, Battle Mode has a lot of Fly Guys circling around it, but there's plenty of bits and pecices to Grand Prix too! So I'm thinking we should get these game modes split up and give them their own articles. What do you think? Broque (talk) 17:31, July 1, 2021 (EDT)
 * I think more of a case can be argued for Battle Mode being merged into each respective Mario Kart series article than its own thing because I don't think Grand Prix really changes across games. It's always race 4 courses in a cup whereas Balloon Battle is pretty different. I also don't see modes in other games getting their own articles either like Mario Party's mini-game mode. 15:43, July 5, 2021 (EDT)

Waluigi Stadium
In the course table, it currently says that Waluigi Stadium from Double Dash only appears in that game and has 1 total appearance, but it actually reappears in Mario Kart Wii. I cannot edit the table as it is protected. 179.218.120.189 18:04, March 22, 2022 (EDT)

GP series race course table split
Even as someone who likes big and complicated tables I'd like to propose to split the race course table between GP and non GP games for no other apparent reason than the speculative idea that there will never be any overlap between the two (no GP tracks will appear in a non GP game and viceversa). As per the vote seen in this talk page before, there is no need to split the Namco games from this page, however said vote was made before the table. Opinions? MariusM (talk) 13:30, January 5, 2023 (EST)
 * It would be nice to have the main series all in a row, but on the other hand, there's also an appeal in having every course in the series on one table. Though if you just want a list of every MK course ever, we have Template:MK race courses for that. Actually, a similar change would be nice there, listing the tracks by game in order of main series, Tour, the arcade games, and Live Circuit. (Maybe those last two should be the other way around, but in terms of tracks I think even the arcade games have more of a shot than tracks with no layout.) ...Getting back to the point, I think I convinced myself - a subheader for the arcade games (and heck, throw Live Circuit in there as well) seems like it'd be a good idea. Ahemtoday (talk) 15:59, January 5, 2023 (EST)

Honestly, the console Mario Kart games and Mario Kart Tour share a same set of courses with each other, a similar thing happens with the Mario Kart Arcade GP series. The purpose of the tables is showing overlaps, otherwise a much more convenient format (e.g. galleries of course icons) would have been chosen. This is why I think the tables should be split, as there's simply no real overlap between two subsets.--Mister Wu (talk) 18:15, January 5, 2023 (EST)
 * I don't see a problem with splitting the tables. If, theoretically, the arcade tracks do make an appearance in the main games, we could always move them back. But the core console games are interconnected with each other and don't really have anything to do with the arcade titles and vice versa. I'd support splitting the tables. I can't speak for Live Circuit though. Don't have it, don't have the space to use it anyway, so I don't know much about it.

I do not agree with this at all. What makes the GP games so intrinsically different that they need their own section? Why a separation is needed in this case? The purpose of this table is to make an exhaustive list of all race courses in this franchise in a form that is easy to read for people. By subdividing-it, not only you archive the same result without the chronology, but you also increase the page length for nothing. People won't go see Template:MK race courses if they have a list here. All it will do is introduce confusion. It is as if those games doesn't belong to the same franchise as the "mainline ones". --Conradd (talk) 16:15, January 14, 2023 (EST)
 * They kind of don't. Arcade GP's tracks have had fifteen years to cross over to the main series, and in that time, they have not. I don't see how separating them because of that introduces confusion. In fact, its greatest benefit is making the table easier to read. The arcade games are three extra columns on a table that already has ten to keep track of as you scroll down it. Columns that contain no information aside from information on the arcade tracks, so why not split them? Ahemtoday (talk) 16:33, January 14, 2023 (EST)

So we separate them from the main table because they haven't appeared in a console game recently? So what? N64 Wario Stadium hasn't reappeared since, should we also separate it from the table? Do we have to set a specific number of years for them to be included? What kind of arbitrary rule is that? Confusion because we have a template with all of the courses in chronological order and now we have this page with not all of them, some separated. I don't understand how it's easier to read when you can choose a table that is in a single block, containing all the games courses arranged in chronological order of release dates. If the information about the GP games bother you that much, do not included it, simple. --Conradd (talk) 17:08, January 14, 2023 (EST)
 * What makes you prefer not covering the Arcade GP series at all to covering it in a separate table? Ahemtoday (talk) 17:15, January 14, 2023 (EST)

(EDIT) I don't want the presentation of this page to be screw up for this, it's not worth it. If you want more reasons, I think our conversations provide enough. --Conradd (talk) 17:42, January 14, 2023 (EST)
 * I'd say it's less presentable to list the arcade courses in the same table as the console courses, considering the two subsets have never intermingled once, because it only creates a cluster of blank table cells that are difficult to scour through. Your N64 Wario Stadium example is a false equivalency: console Mario Kart games have shown a clear resolve to only reuse courses from its own subset, so them bringing back Wario Stadium at some point is infinitely more likely than with any arcade course. As Tails777 stated above, if console titles will ever start recognising courses from arcade titles or vice-versa, there's nothing holding this wiki back from reverting to the previous set-up; for now, though, there's no trade-off in making these course listings more digestible. 18:13, January 14, 2023 (EST)

Sky-High Sundae's position on the table
It seems there's some disagreement on how we should handle this, so before an edit war starts, I'd like to hash this out if we can. I think my stance is that there's no way to win here, because either we make it look like it belongs to one game while its joint-custody situation is relegated to a footnote, or we make it look like two tracks and it's only clear it's one when you click on the links and see they're the same. Personally, though, I think the former is preferable. Between the two, I'd rather imply something was from the wrong number of games than is the wrong amount of tracks. Especially considering what game Sky-High Sundae's from is still quite contentious outside the wiki. Ahemtoday (talk) 09:42, January 27, 2023 (EST)
 * There's been a proposal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:37, January 27, 2023 (EST)
 * They're well aware of that Doc, hence why we have the footnote on this page. They meant where to put it in on the table in this page, in one area or the other or both, and they're concerned that it can make it seem like there are two Sky-High Sundae courses at a glance. Personally, I disagree about how much of an issue that would be (it only takes a moment or two to read the footnote or click the link), but I'll leave it to others to decide. 10:46, January 27, 2023 (EST)

I think another argument is consistency. Every other course is only listed once. I don't find SHS's joint custody situation a compelling reason to change this, especially when it leads to duplicate information. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:04, January 28, 2023 (EST)
 * Honestly? Feature it in both, as that's what the proposal decided. Maybe put a different sign as footnote so it's harder to pass it as a minor footnote, but I think most readers will just think what has always been stated: that the course appearing in both parts means that it's considered a new course in both games. If in the future they assign a prepended platform code to the name shown in-game, we'll put Sky-High Sundae in the part corresponding to said platform code.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:31, January 29, 2023 (EST)
 * I really can't agree with this. We are putting it on the table twice when the table exists because tracks show up in multiple games. We are showing the exact same information in two different places. Even with the footnote, this is not a natural way of doing this. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:50, January 29, 2023 (EST)

Personally, as I said in my edit, I think the note added after Sky-High, plus the yellow color and the note in the MK8DX column is enough. There aren't that many footnotes in this table, especially in the courses column, which makes them stand out to the readers, so you can take advantage of that if you want to add any clarification or additional information. For me, the purpose of this table is to list all the unique main courses in the series, so I think we should only list them once. I also agree that two Sky-Highs could lead to unnecessary confusion. As for where it should go, I think putting it in the Tour row at the end is better because, both the game and the course are much more recent than MK8DX (and because this course was clearly made initially for Tour and its shitty mobile graphics, let's face it).--Conradd (talk) 22:07, January 29, 2023 (EST)

Proposal: where do we put Sky-High Sundae?
Right, so. As discussed above, the current wiki policy, set by this proposal, is that Sky-High Sundae is a course from both Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour. This leads to the question of how to handle it on this article's table, since we have to put it somewhere.

I want to stress this will in no way effect our policy on which game Sky-High Sundae comes from, only the table on this article.

Proposer: Deadline: February 13, 2023, 23:59 GMT

With the Mario Kart 8 courses

 * 1)  Second choice, since as I'll explain further down, I think putting it on the table twice is the worst option. I do think putting it with Tour makes more sense, since it matches the race course template, and we did that there because it's the odd one out among the MK8 courses as the only Deluxe-exclusive one (and also because of the platform code).

With the Mario Kart Tour courses

 * 1)  First choice. I do not think putting it in two distinct places on the table is desirable, since A) it would result in a row of cells that contains completely identical information to a previous row; B) the table's entire purpose is to show what tracks are in multiple games so we should just let it do that; C) Sky-High Sundae's joint custody situation is made clear enough by the footnote and everything else on the wiki, so we don't need to break how the table is laid out just so it doesn't look at first glance like it belongs to only one; and D) it would instead look at first glance like it was two tracks like Luigi Circuit and Sherbet Land and I think any way you slice it, how many tracks something is is more important to get right than which game it originates from.
 * 2)  Per proposal.
 * 3)  I know it's a new course for both games. But maybe for the table, it should be under the Tour row because of the "mob" platform code. Per proposal.
 * 4)  I still consider Sky-High Sundae to be more of a Tour track than an 8 Deluxe track for reasons I stated back when we discussed what to consider it so my vote goes here. As for my main reasoning, per Infinite8.
 * 5)  I think this option is the best.
 * 6)  Per all.
 * 7)  per all and per my explanation in the edit summary on the Mario Kart (series) page
 * 8)  It was always made as a new course for Tour, as in Tour data, it's assigned with the mob prefix, not a wu or nsw one. I've held onto this sentiment from the start and it hasn't changed. Per all.

Put it on the table twice

 * 1) The relevant part of this table says that the game each track is in is their "Original Game", which in other words is the game it debuted in. Sky-High Sundae is a new course for both MK8D and MKT, so it should be put in both parts of the table. The same should be done with the racecourses template, as Sky-High Sundae is a unique case in the Mario Kart series of a track debuting in two games instead of one (need I remind you that the other two non-city tour courses in the pass debuted months before the pass even existed, and were given the "Tour" prefix everywhere else prior to Wave 3). I do not see how "It would appear like it is two separate tracks if we list it twice" could apply to this; under the table it is listed with the same check marks, coloration, and footnotes, and if that's not enough they can always check the link. And don't points C and D contradict each other? If the footnote appears twice for both "Sky-High Sundae" entries, saying that it is officially a new course for both of the games it is listed in (hence the "original course" at the top of the table), why would someone think that Nintendo released two separate new tracks with the same name in the same two Mario Kart games that are marketed as both being the debut course of both at the same time? And to everyone treating the "mob" internal name as the holy grail; can we really treat internal content as the ultimate objective determination and not take into account the possibility of Nintendo just having changed their mind on something? Remember, these same Mario Kart leaks also said that Waluigi Pinball was listed to debut in Wave 3 for the pass but it didn't. (and to the person talking about the upcoming Yoshi's Island and Bathroom courses, why does that matter when the next new course announced is a desert ruins with a Piranha Plant motif?) In general, I'd much rather uphold our "It debuted in both games" stance all around instead of soft-coring to one side and saying "it debuted in Mario Kart Tour and also the Booster Course Pass ". If we decide to reconsider our "two game debut" stance and/or Nintendo pulls another Sky-High Sundae situation with a more distinctly "Tour-advertised" course, we can always pull a broader proposal to repeal the original SHS debut game proposal.

Comments
Another thing to point out is that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour would reveal another new non-city course in similar way to Sky-High Sundae, it would mess up the table even more if going for option C. Imagine new courses like mobyi and mobbr (future Tour tracks found in the game's files) that would presumably be new Booster Course Pass courses introduced a week before their Tour versions. I would also add my two suggestion concepts: option A and option B (with the Booster Course Pass logo in Tour row section, as Tencent releases of 8 Deluxe treated city courses as no-prefix new courses). 20:15, January 30, 2023 (EST)
 * I'm not too sure about putting the BCP logo in there. You have a point regarding the Tencent releases, but every other release does prefix the city courses. We'd have courses marked as Tour courses outside China, and courses only marked as Tour courses in-game and not on the website, all painted the same level of "arguably a BCP track" because of one course and a presumption of how future courses will be released. It seems better fit to put this information in a footnote somewhere. Ahemtoday (talk) 21:23, January 30, 2023 (EST)

@Somethingone a due precisation: the only main leak regarding Sky-High Sundae was the Mario Kart Tour icon of the course (which was eventually used in the final game), the New_Gmob_IceBuilding internal name is not a leak, but rather the course name used in the final product. It is not in the same ballpark of the Booster Course Pass leaks that had to do with content that was ultimately changed in the final product. With that being said, the text that actually ended in the in-game news post introducing the Sundae Tour revealed that indeed the original plan was releasing Sky-High Sundae in Mario Kart Tour first, so a change in the original release plan definitely happened, that unchanged text shows that it was a last-minute change, too.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:27, February 4, 2023 (EST)

A note about the new Yoshi’s Island course
It's worth noting how said course was originally datamined in Mario Kart Tour no later than June 2022. Its internal abbreviated name is mobyi, which puts it in the same situation of Sky-High Sundae, the main difference being that this time the map objects of the course were found in the data of Mario Kart Tour several months prior to the course's announcement in the Booster Course Pass. Since I have data of previous tours, if I have some time in the next days I'll try to see if I can find when the map objects first appeared in the game's assets.--Mister Wu (talk) 00:39, February 9, 2023 (EST)
 * I fully expect Yoshi's Island to come to Tour and be treated as a new course. When it does, that's when we should switch to treating it the same way as Sky-High Sundae. Ahemtoday (talk) 01:09, February 9, 2023 (EST)
 * Agreed. We need to see how they'll handle the release in both games this time and act accordingly. Oddly enough the Japanese site of Nintendo doesn't have a "topic" article about the wave 4 announcement so we have very limited information at the moment.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:33, February 9, 2023 (EST)
 * One thing that can guarantee a confirmation for Tour is that when the official Mario Kart Tour Twitter account (in the case of the English account) retweets the Nintendo of America tweet regarding to the new Yoshi's Island course. The Tour Twitter account has previously retweeted the NoA tweet about the course lineup in the first three waves. 05:52, February 9, 2023 (EST)