Talk:Chuckster

Should this stay, be deleted, or be merged with Pianta? -- Y ' o ' s ' h ' i ' 6 ' 2  6  18:18, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * just stands there and falls over* Ya gat yourself a big smart question. [[Image:MayorPenguinPM.png]] Paper Jorge

Split from Pianta?
Apparently Chuckster redirects to Pianta. I think they have a large enough role to justify their own article. Even the Mario FANDOM gave them their own page. Thoughts? Results May Vary (talk) 21:55, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * Porple says he wants them to have a page. I'd do that, but first I'd like a big list of every Pianta to do so in SMS. Aside from the (medium difficulty) secret area, I remember the rooftop guy in Delfino Plaza, a red female in Bianco Hills, two in Ricco Harbor (one of which gets progressively stronger in later missions), and one in Gelato Beach in a few missions (at the bottom of the slide in the Sand Bird mission; one could also count the watermelon contest guy too since he throws the melon). I think there's one or two I missed, can anyone think of any other ones? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:26, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
 * I'd need to check Prima or Nintendo Power guide for a name. Btw yeah, there it like only two sentences on Chuckster on the Pianta page. There can definitely be enough info for Chuckster to have its own article. although "chuckster" is lowercase in game, so it might be forming name from adjective. thats why i'll see if the guides use any actual, capitalized name/. And the Chucksters are actually needed to get some Shine Sprites, so that's already a reason why they're notable enough to be distinct from Piantas. I almost want to start the article already because of how obvious the distinctions are. At the same time, enough people would need to agree on the decision. Results May Vary (talk) 03:10, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * According to this game script, there's also another one in Bianco Hills (the husband of the one mentioned), two* in Gelato Beach, and a whopping eleven in a Pianta Village bonus stage. The Gelato Beach NPCs are notable because they are only chucksters in certain episodes - a pink male Pianta in Episodes 4 and 7, and even the Surf Cabana owner in Episode 4. Since this behavior can change among the same characters, I'm not really sure about a full split. You might also notice the term "chuckster" is only uttered by seven of them in the Pianta Village bonus stage challenge - six of which is a repeating line - though they don't call themselves that elsewhere. In terms of guides: Versus Books, BradyGAMES, and Prima Games guides capitalize it, but the Nintendo Power guide doesn't. Outside of one instance of "Chuckster Piantas" when describing Pianta Village Episode 5 on page 104, Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia doesn't mention them separately from normal Piantas, and neither does the Japanese version; the Japanese term used in place of "chuckster" in-game is 「ごっちゃん」 (gocchan), which doesn't show up in the book. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * There's also at the very least some Piantas that behave like Chucksters in SMG2, for what it's worth. -- 12:06, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * Okay, so the general consensus is to expand upon Chucksters on the Pianta page itself, correct? So how we would go about doing that? Results May Vary (talk) 12:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
 * I agree to split it. -- 13:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT)

Hey, guys! I decided to make this article into a species variant page due to a lot of Chucksters contributing to the focus of an area, if that's quite all right. 12:25, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
 * I think this article should be re-merged with Pianta. The term "chuckster" is only really used in Secret of the Village Underside, and the game is actually very vague regarding what a "chuckster" actually is. According to this article, any Pianta that throws you is a chuckster, but the quoted line at the top of the page implies otherwise, despite not actually explaining what a chuckster is. Additionally, throwing is heavily implied to be an ability intrinsic to Piantas in general, even if some throw farther than others (particularly notable are the ones in Ricco Harbor that get better as the episodes go by), since Piantas that do throw don't have any visual differences from Piantas that don't throw. From where I'm sitting, "chuckster" is as much of a variant of Pianta as "Submarine Nep-Enut" is a variant of Nep-Enut. 19:32, October 1, 2022 (EDT)

Re-merge with Pianta
See my comment above. The term "chuckster" is little more than a catchphrase used by the Piantas in that Pianta Village sub-area. The closest any of them come to actually defining "chuckster" is that one at the beginning, which provides the quote at the top of the article. It fails to actually explain what a chuckster is, but it implies that not all Piantas that throw are "chucksters", whatever that may be. Therefore, us defining "chuckster" as any Pianta that throws is pretty much fanwank. The very idea that Piantas that throw are a "variant" is also fanwank; throwing is just a thing Piantas do, even if not all of them are seen doing it.

EDIT: Per Swallow, I've added an option to rename this article to Pianta Thrower. I'd prefer an outright merge, since I still don't think Piantas that throw are a variant, at least it's a cited name that can actually be appended to all throwing Piantas, unlike "chuckster".

Proposer: Deadline: October 22, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Merge
Per all. Also worth mentioning the term isn't used at all in Galaxy 2; all that they say is "strongest Pianta tournament".
 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal and above discussion, this is comparable to how some Volbonans can be captured and give a boost while others just stand around.
 * 3) per all
 * 4) Per all. We don't really have separate articles of Lumas that can transform into Pull Stars, or Launch Stars, or Red Stars, etc, nor of New Donkers with RC car remotes that can be captured.
 * 5) Per all, Hewer and Arend bring up good examples of similar situations of subjects with differing gameplay elements that are not split.
 * 6) Per all, especially Hewer and Arend's examples.
 * 7) Per all.

Rename to Pianta Thrower

 * 1) Second choice, at least this avoids the fanwank issue described above and below.
 * 2) As I suggested in the comments.
 * 3) Per Swallow.
 * 4) Second choice, per all.
 * 5) Second choice.
 * 6) Second choice.
 * 7) Second option - although chuckster is apparently used a proper name in some guides, if we are keeping the page's content as is then I believe this is technically the most recent name since they're unnamed in SMG2.
 * 8) "Chuckster" as a name seems pretty shaky due to the lack of capitalization styling in-game, but since they have this name in a guide, might as well use that instead.
 * 9) Second choice.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) While I disagree on the belief that "Pianta that throws" is not enough to be a variant (because in that case neither is Shy Guy that flips), I believe we should at least go with this proper name instead of a generic description that was never intended to be the acutal name.

Do nothing

 * 1) I'd actually prefer this split myself. (I dug up an alternate, variant-like name from the Mario Party 8 Prima guide, but forgot to contribute to the discussion.) "Chuckster" and most of its foreign equivalents are pretty specific terms that I don't think would be too easily confused for another subject—being a type of Pianta that performs a very specific action appearing in several games now—plus most Sunshine guides capitalize it. It's not like some derivatives can't look identical to their base species.
 * 2) Per LTL and Porple.
 * 3) What ^^ said. Wheter they're a separate in-universe thing is arguable, but they're certainly a distinct gameplay thing.
 * 4) - I don't know, I think you might be overthinking this. Has enough of a function in-game that it's worth keeping it split, don't see the point in changing the name just for the hell of it. Also "Pianta Thrower" makes it sound like the Pianta is the one being thrown

Comments
"I'm an asshole", says Pianta. MarioWiki then makes article called "asshole". 16:44, October 8, 2022 (EDT)
 * Not an entirely equivalent scenario. If Piantas hypothetically dubbed as such acted in a specific, gameplay-affecting manner, then by all means "asshole" Piantas would get their own coverage. They're technically already covered here as "chucksters". 12:04, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * Heh.

Porple once said he wanted it split, so, there's that... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:40, October 8, 2022 (EDT)

If this ends up remaining split, I feel it should at least be renamed "Pianta Thrower" which at least seems to be a proper name. 14:39, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

@Opposition: Your votes completely fail to address a very important part of the argument for merging - namely that Pianta that throws ≠ chuckster. There is no in-game evidence to support that definition of "chuckster". In fact, the only in-game evidence we have that even vaguely hints at a definition for "chuckster" outright contradicts that interpretation. There is no true definition for chuckster, so us trying to append this definition to it is - I cannot stress this enough - fanwank. This wiki should not fanwank things. Is having an article specifically for Piantas that throw really worth fanwanking a definition for a meme-y catchphrase term just so we can have an article for them? 14:48, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * I just think the specific gameplay concept of pianta that throws the player avatar when spoken to is a substantial and recurring-enough aspect of Sunshine's gameplay to be worth documenting on its own. Doesn't really matter to me what the end page is called tbh --Glowsquid (talk) 15:02, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * In that case, I suggest the rename option, since as I have stated repeatedly, there is in-game evidence actively against "chuckster" meaning "any Pianta that throws". The only confirmed chucksters are the ones that outright say they are.
 * 15:25, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * (edit conflict) 7feetunder: Also, although you might not realize it, I feel your language directed at the opposition is a bit harsh. I don't think anyone would want to sacrifice proper documentation for the sake of a memorable catchphrase and I personally wouldn't describe the opposition as falling to, uh, "fanwank". I don't really agree that "chuckster" should be the name of the page, it just seems like a general casual slang in a similar vein to like "i'm a huckster!" and they sell you stuff. I do want to bring up characters like crate guy, Cannon Pianta, and sunglasses vendor that are generically named, have minor differences but not super notable, that are split just for the services they offer, and I do think it's not unreasonable to split off chucksters for their services as well (loosely defined as "service" heh).  15:59, October 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * I was simply getting frustrated that the opposers were only addressing my secondary point (about Piantas that throw even being a variant), to the point of failing to acknowledge my main point (that the term "chuckster" isn't being used correctly) that the proposal text actually begins with. Swallow's suggestion for the alternate option of renaming was posted in the middle of me typing that comment, so the idea hadn't crossed my mind yet. I can understand the desire to keep this article, even if I don't agree with it, it just shouldn't be called "chuckster". 16:18, October 9, 2022 (EDT)

@MrConcreteDonkey: I'm not overthinking anything. The reason for the proposed changes is pretty clearly stated in the proposal text. The name change option is absolutely not "for the hell of it". People do not make proposals "for the hell of it". I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. 14:21, October 22, 2022 (EDT)

Rename back to Chuckster
Per the title of this proposal, I would like to rename this article back to Chuckster. I have not provided a merge option as I personally do believe these Piantas do fulfill a specific, identifiable gameplay function that warrants retaining their separate article. We have articles on similar gameplay-specific variants of existing species (with Woozy Guy being brought up in the previous proposal), and the NPC quoted at the top of the article does provide a fairly solid definition of these specific Piantas - one that will chuck you upward or backward when spoken to.

But why rename it? Outside the easiest argument to be made - that it's a well-known, identifiable descriptor that most people will be searching for - per MarioWiki:Naming, in-game information takes priority, with Nintendo Power and post-SMG1 Prima being second on the totem pole. Seven separate NPCs in one mission refer to themselves as "chucksters" in-game, with the others in the mission (as well as those outside the mission) not defining themselves with any specific term.

That said, I realize that there's been an argument made that "I'm a chuckster!" doesn't refer to every Pianta that throws you, just those who specifically utilize the term, due to what I assume is the page quote's implication that not all "powerful Piantas" like the one speaking are specifically chucksters. However, despite the Nintendo Power editors leaving "chuckster" uncapitalized elsewhere in the guide, they call the secret red coin mission in Pianta Village Red Coin Chucksters, even with not every single NPC in that level referring to themselves as a chuckster. Yet isn't it fair to assume that they're all grouped under that banner in that level even if they don't specifically state it, and that there's thus no reason why it couldn't be used to refer to the throwing Piantas in SMS as a whole?

It's true that the current name of Pianta Thrower is properly capitalized and sourced from a post-SMG Prima guide (Mario Party 8), which would put it on the same level as the Nintendo Power guide. The yellow Piantas are unnamed in the text of Mario Party 8 itself to my understanding, and while at least one of them does have dialogue before throwing you, it does not name them or reference any specific terms. I don't expect any extra text that the other yellow Piantas may have to clear this matter up further, though I am welcome to corrections. Regardless, I would ultimately argue that the combination of in-game Super Mario Sunshine info alongside the SMS Nintendo Power guide that is also on "level 2" of the naming hierarchy should take precedence over the MP8 guide.

Proposer: Deadline: October 3, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Rename back to Chuckster

 * 1) - Per proposal.
 * 2) - Per Turb. It makes no sense to me to use an obscure name from a guide for a spin off rather than the name that's used in the text of a main series game
 * 3) - Changing the name away from a well-established, widely-known term that is explicitly supported by the game itself in favor of a snippet of info from a supplementary third-party guide from an entirely different game sure is an interesting play. But let's use the term that actually appears within the source material in question, shall we?
 * 4) - "This is going down in history!" (Per all.)
 * 5) - I'm pretty sure anyone, if you asked them what the article for the Piantas that throw you is called, would say "Chuckster". When, for an entire level based around them, talking to them has them identify themselves by a certain name, I don't see the reason to call them anything else.
 * "I'm a Chuckster!" Per all.
 * 1) We...are...chucksters...
 * 2) Per all.
 * 3) Per proposal.
 * 4) - Never should have been changed to begin with. The logic given for the initial change (we don't know 100% if they are all Chucksters because only some say it) is like if we renamed the Mario article to "???" because both the games and promotional material could potentially be referring to his canonical last name. Sometimes you just have to take something at face value rather than dig yourself into semantics hell.
 * 5) Per all. It’s strange to me that this article’s title was changed to begin with given that the term chuckster is used in-game. We are comfortable saying that any given Goomba is a Goomba generally speaking, even though they don’t all say “I’m a Goomba” when encountered. The same likely goes for chucksters; they are likely all chucksters and the “I’m a chuckster” line is simply the game’s way of establishing this.
 * 6) Per all. (Look mom, first proposal vote!)
 * 7) I'm a supporter! (Per all.)
 * 8) Per Turb and Gabumon entirely. Adding my name to history.
 * 9) Per proposal. The term gets used directly in-game, it's reasonable to conclude it applies to other Piantas who throw you in the same manner, and it's the most recognizable and likely-to-be-searched name.
 * 10) We're a per all voter! ...Seriously though, this is overdue--the in-game name should easily take priority over names only given in guides, just like we do on just about every other article. While mentioning the Pianta Thrower name in the article intro as an alternative name (like we do for other such cases of this) wouldn't be a bad idea, the article should probably just be named Chucksters to make it easy on everyone. ;P
 * 11) - Per proposal.
 * 12) Throw the Pianta.
 * 13) Chucking some support.
 * 14) Per all. It's literally the name used in-game, I really don't think it's that complex.
 * 15) Per all.
 * 16) Per all.
 * 17) Per chucking this back to Chuckster.
 * 18) Though I supported the previous proposal, I do think this reasoning makes sense. Per all.

Do nothing

 * 1) The reason I supported the move was solely because of the most recent name policy, since I believe Pianta Thrower is the most recent name. The proposal doesn't really address this argument, just says that we should prioritise the older guide for some reason. Also, what most fans call it is not a valid argument for moving pages, see Blue Shell.
 * 2) My stance is unchanged. The idea to rename this page to begin with wasn't mine; I always wanted to merge the thing, and I still do. As Hewer said on the last proposal, we don't have a separate article for the Volbonans stuck to walls that fling Mario when he captures them, and this is pretty much the same deal. I have no interest in undoing the rename either - the term "chuckster" may be official, but the definition we're trying to assign to it is still effectively fanon. The counterargument effectively boils down to "it's close enough", which is not convincing me.

Comments
With respect to 7feetunder, the Odyssey fork guys that fling you upwards are missing several charateristics of the Chucksters. "Chucksters" as I will call them here, are in several levels as a gameplay mechanic, announce their title on occasion, and it is mentioned elsewhere in the game that some Piantas are Chucksters, which would imply that Chucksters are a subtype or at least a common subculture of Pianta that involves throwing. Just because some Chucksters don't yell their name 100% of the time before throwing you does not mean that they are not Chucksters. Boo Buddies do not appear differently from other Boos in many games and do not announce that they are Boo Buddies but they are defined differently by their behavior, as a Chuckster should be. There are plenty of sources that name Chucksters as the Piantas that throw you, and even in the unlikely event of a merge, Chucksters should be Chucksters. If the fork guys actually got a distinct definition by both the game itself and other sources, they would actually deserve a page as well in my opinion. --Fun With Despair (talk) 12:39, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * OK, so I looked up a scan of the NP guide for context, and it seems that it uses "chuckster" specifically to refer to the throwing Piantas in PV5 - in other instances, such as the Delfino Plaza "thrown through the window" Shine and Petey Piranha Strikes Back, it just calls them "Piantas." Other guides apparently use the term more broadly, so there's a lot of conflicting sources here. I'll retract my outright opposition, but I'm still kinda iffy on this. 13:00, September 19, 2023 (EDT)

Whether this page has merit to stand on its own is not relevant to the question of what the page name should be, and I'm not a particularly big fan of how these two issues have been conflated with each other in the previous proposal. "Should this gameplay construct be renamed?" and "Should this page be merged with the main Pianta article?" are two separate questions that should be handled by two separate proposals. If the desire for a merge is there, a second proposal to that effect should be made after this one, dealing with exclusively THAT issue, and if THAT one passes, the name of the sub-section that gets merged into the Pianta page would be taken from the current page name, as determined by THIS proposal. Keep issues that ought to be separate separate. - 17:09, September 19, 2023 (EDT)

With regards to Hewer, the argument actually does fully addresses the subject of your complaint if you read the entire statement. There is an NPC in the game itself (this is the important part) that introduces himself as a "chuckster", followed by a reasonably informative definition of what that term means, followed by a reinforcement of him being a "chuckster", as well as a demonstration of what talking to a chuckster results in (getting thrown somewhere). The term is then used by at least six other NPCS who all refer to themselves as such and perform the same action, with the term never being attributed to an NPC who does not exhibit this behavior. That this reoccurs in the game itself seven times with no false attributions establishes a clear pattern and is reasonable course to accept "chuckster" as the de-facto label attributed to these kinds of NPCs. The Mariowiki Naming Policy lists in-game information as the top priority, with third party guides only occupying the second tier of priority and thus being considered irrelevant if an in-game source for a name can be provided. The references made to the Nintendo Power guide here merely exist to supplement the argument, not to act as its linchpin. That guide is equally as irrelevant as the Mario Party 8 guide, as they both occupy tier 2 in the Naming Policy hierachy. - 04:18, September 19, 2023 (EDT)
 * And also to quote, the Super Mario Bros. Movie: "You can't escape me!" "What?" "BLUUUUUUUUEEEEEEEE SHEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLL!" PrincessPeachFan (talk) 09:05, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * I honestly thought this reply was kind of nonsensical at first glance but no actually you raise a valid point. If the most recent source including non-game information applies, then the article actually SHOULD be called Blue Shell now lol. --Fun With Despair (talk) 09:35, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * Precedent begs to differ. 15:56, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * I did read the whole proposal, and I'm also aware that they are called chucksters in-game, sorry if the wording was misleading - my problem is that the Pianta Thrower name is more recent, and the naming policy says to prioritize newer names. Admittedly, the policy is a bit vague as to whether a newer lower-priority source trumps an older higher-priority source, but it does use a Prima guide as an example of a source that could provide newer names, so I'm assuming recency is more important than source priority (at least in regards to the higher priority tiers). 15:56, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * For what it's worth, Banzai Bill is still currently on that name and not Bomber Bill because thus far, no game has used the Bomber Bill name. Don't think that's a part of any express part of our editing code, but that is another case of us using an "older" name because the newer names have only appeared in stuff that's lower on our priority. 16:54, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * Per Camwoodstock, not using "Bomber Bill", "Blue Shell", etc. because they haven't been referred to as such in a primary in-game source is fine because as you stated in response to me earlier, there is precedent. However, does that same precedent not apply to Pianta Thrower vs. Chuckster? If the argument for those other names not being used is the lack of primary source with regards to the games, then that applies to Pianta Thrower by that logic as well. The Pianta Thrower name is never used in-game while a previous name (Chuckster) prominently was, and therefore the previous name should take precedence. Furthermore, Chucksters appeared under the name Chucksters in the 3D All-Stars release, which is the most recent appearance of the characters, which should trump Pianta Thrower in terms of recency regardless. --Fun With Despair (talk) 22:21, September 20, 2023 (EDT)
 * The difference with Bomber Bill is that a) the character appeared frequently and recently as Banzai Bill and b) "Bomber Bill" was only used in Mario Portal and the movie, which both had a number of oddities that we didn't move pages over, and to my knowledge this doesn't apply to Mario Party 8's Prima guide. 03:06, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
 * Per FWD's comment, the Pianta Throwers' page directly lists their most recent appearance as Super Mario 3D All-Stars. Our naming policy mentions that the most common modern English name should be used for an article's title - most SMS guidebooks refer to the throwing Piantas as Chucksters, making it common, and the text has been left unchanged in the re-release, making it modern. As such, the name Chuckster should take priority regardless of the Mario Party 8 guidebook's oddities or lack thereof. In the event all of this falls through some fairly specific cracks in our policies, the section on name changes only mentions changing names in "certain cases" and leaves it up to the users to decide how aliases/nicknames should be dealt with, which the TPP is essentially already handling on some level. - Turboo (talk) 03:43, September 21, 2023 (EDT)
 * It's crossed our mind we could probably make "newer names from a low priority don't take priority if a higher-priority name exists from an older source" an official part of our policies later seeing as that's how we handle Spiny Shell (blue) and Banzai Bill, but that's definitely out if the scope of this proposal. Also @FWD, we should've made it clear that we brought up Bomber Bill in how we already do this sort of thing even without a newer source that confirms the name. Ergo, even if 3DAS didn't exist (which we... genuinely forgot it did for a moment, OOPS!), Chuckster would take priority for being their direct in-game name; as even though the "Pianta Thrower" name is technically newer, it also never appears in a game as far as we can tell. 15:07, September 21, 2023 (EDT)