Talk:Sky-High Sundae

Mario Kart Tour
a lot of people, im assuming, didnt notice this so im putting it here for others to see. at 28 seconds, bottom left corner, it confirms its coming to tour https://youtu.be/xBly7QHQkYA - RSM 09:55, July 28, 2022 (EDT)

New track or Tour track?
I am very curious as to what Sky-High Sundae is supposed to be considered as. Now yes, it's Mario Kart debut is 8 Deluxe, and the website does not give it a prefix, but the first trailer for the Booster Course Pass states that it contains 48 remastered courses from previous Mario Kart games, including Mario Kart Tour. That said, in the Wave 2 trailer, it states that Sky-High Sundae will be added to Tour in the future, but it does not say that for GBA Snow Land, despite it also not being in Tour. There's also the issue of Ninja Hideaway not having a prefix despite being a Tour track, so maybe the same is still applicable here, where both courses were created for Tour but don't have the prefix because they're not based on a city. When this course comes to Tour, I doubt its gonna be labeled as coming from 8 Deluxe, meaning that its original creation was intended for Tour. But that's just what I'm thinking. Thoughts? PrPro03 (talk) 15:05, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * I say if it debuts in 8DX, it's an 8DX track. We can't be sure if the track will be given an 8DX label when it shows up in Tour until it happens, but that won't change the course's actual debut.  15:46, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * Even if it isn't listed as Switch Sky-High Sundae or something to that effect once it's added to Tour, I don't think that would really prove anything. Ninja Hideaway is solidly a Tour track, but it doesn't have a prefix in 8DX. Unless they change that in the update, but at that point we're working off of what we think will happen instead of actual sources, which isn't the right move for a wiki. In any case, the Mario Wiki's stance on this will really only affect where we put it in the "Mario Kart racecourses" template - and if we're putting in there, I think Sky-High Sundae is plenty justified being put there until we get clearer evidence one way or the other.
 * Stretch comparison, but Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude all appeared in Fire Emblem Heroes before Three Houses released, but they're all still characters from Three Houses. This really isn't all that different a situation. The DLC is clearly taking from Tour so there's enough reason to believe this is intended to be a Tour track. 17:13, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * I don't think that comparison is accurate. I'm no expert on the Fire Emblem series, so correct any errors I make, but AFAIK Three Houses is a proper "new game" (for lack of a better term) while Heroes is an ongoing mobile game revolving around obtaining heroes from past installments, making their appearance in that game more comparable to Roy debuting in Melee before his "proper" game was released than the circumstances surrounding this race course. Mario Kart Tour itself is an ongoing mobile game continuously receiving updates with mostly courses from previous Mario Kart games and variants of them, so the "past content crossover vs. fully new installment" contrast isn't present here. Without official confirmation, calling SHS "properly a Tour track" seems arbitrary to me. Nintendo has shown a lot of inconsistency with Tour, straight up retitling existing tracks for no reason at all and making Ninja Hideaway the only Tour track in 8DX so far without a prefix. Therefore, I think we should stick to calling this an 8DX track until we get official confirmation to the contrary. 18:16, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * I still don’t think it’s right to call this an ‘’8 Deluxe’’ track since the Booster Course Pass is still marketed as “48 remastered tracks from past instalments”. I also don’t really think it’s speculation to say it’s intended to be a Tour track, since every track in the two waves is either in Tour, or at least in DS Shroom Ridge and even this course’s case, has an image to prove it will eventually be in the game. GBA Snow Land is the only track without direct proof, so with 15 out of 16 tracks all pointing in the same direction, I feel it’s clear to say this is all Tour based. And Nintendo didn’t say it’s a track originating from MK8D, but did say all 48 tracks were from other instalments, which sounds like proof that this isn’t a MK8D track.
 * I personally think due to the mismatched flat textures and ultra wide roads that can fit the entire Daisy Cruiser on there that it's a Tour track first but idk. 00:25, July 29, 2022 (EDT)


 * Nintendo didn’t say it’s a track originating from Tour, either, and what they said about the BCP back in February isn't necessarily gonna hold up several months later. I remember Nintendo saying back when 7 was new that they didn't have any plans to patch that notorious Maka Wuhu respawn glitch for online play, then did exactly that shortly afterward anyway. Even if SHS was originally conceived as a Tour track, it still showed up in 8DX first. The simultaneous announcement for both games may have even been planned from the start - we certainly don't have proof that it wasn't. 01:11, July 29, 2022 (EDT)

Since it was announced for Tour and 8 DX simultaneously, i suppose its a new track for both Tour and 8DX. - RSM 18:30, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * Well, we can't put it down in both places on the all-race-courses template, so that doesn't help us. We still have to pick one. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:27, July 28, 2022 (EDT)
 * Datamine will tell, if this course is "U" or "mob". So it's better to wait until this track gonna be released. Piotrek1113 (talk) 10:23, July 29, 2022 (EDT)
 * Sadly, I can already confirm that the Booster Course Pass won't help us with its internal names, as they're all placeholder names using the c_nsw_nn format. We'll need to wait for the Sundae Tour. The in-game name used in Mario Kart Tour did confirm that it's not to be intended as a classic course introduced in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, though.--Mister Wu (talk) 05:10, August 5, 2022 (EDT)
 * I still think this track is fully intended to be a Tour original track that just so happened to make it's debut in MK8D beforehand. It was on the datamined banner and all those icons used their Tour appearances. And we're using that datamined banner to even further confirm DS Shroom Ridge for Mario Kart Tour. If we can use that to say DS Shroom Ridge is in MKT, we can use that image to confirm Sky-High Sundae was intended for Tour first. 23:35, August 5, 2022 (EDT)
 * The course is here, and considering how it doesn't use U or Switch, the number of Jump Boosts, and the course icon matching the datamined banner image, I think it's pretty safe to say it's a MKT track.
 * EDIT: The filename uses mob, so Sky-High Sundae is basically confirmed to be a Mario Kart Tour course. 02:28, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * Tell that to Nintendo then, because for all we know they've been treating Sky-High Sundae as a new course for MK8D instead of a returning course. The "48 Remastered courses" tidbit is moreso an exception instead of the general statement. 07:00, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * To be very clear: to treat Sky-High Sundae as a classic course from Mario Kart 8 Deluxe is not treating it like Nintendo is treating it. Not a single word from the Sundae Tour suggests that this is a classic course, nor does it have a platform prefix in its name, nor did the Twitter account present it as a classic course. In fact, the Sundae Tour's introduction specifically has this paragraph:
 * Sky-High Sundae will also appear in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!
 * The Sky-High Sundae course featured in the Sundae Tour is now also available in the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe game on the Nintendo Switch system as part of the paid Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - Booster Course Pass DLC!
 * You can enjoy Sky-High Sundae in both Mario Kart Tour and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!
 * The internal data clearly showed that the original target platform of the course were mobile devices, as it was even put in the new and not in the classic folder, but the course was released as a completely new course in both Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour. Which makes sense, as it was originally developed for Mario Kart Tour, but its Mario Kart 8 Deluxe version was released earlier (and the paragraph title of the Sundae Tour suggests this was a late decision, with the original plan being that of the course being first released in Mario Kart Tour, which also explains why the Booster Course Pass originally promised only remastered courses).--Mister Wu (talk) 08:39, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * As I stated in the "Merge city course and Kalimari Desert layouts" proposal, this would probably need a proposal in order to settle what game Sky-High Sundae is to be treated from. There's enough evidence pointing it to be a Tour course, but with Nintendo treating it as a brand new course for the Booster Course Pass (in spite of previous statements that all 48 tracks are remastered from previous entries) certainly makes this a rather unique and unprecedented case. However, with Ninja Hideaway having no prefix either (and thanks to datamining, we know neither will Merry Mountain), there's also a possibility that Nintendo might pull this kind of stunt again in future waves. Arend (talk) 07:22, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * I don't know when this track will release in Mario Kart Tour, but honestly I feel this discussion should hold off a bit until then when we know how exactly it will be treated. I also don't think a proposal should be started until then. 07:33, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * The course is out in Tour today. And it's apparently being treated as a new course in Mario Kart Tour as well, plus its internal name starts with the same kind of prefix as the internal names of other Tour courses, which is why the discussion is being picked up again, I believe. Arend (talk) 07:47, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * I'm just bumping in. The phone notification about the Sundae Tour says, "The second part of the Summertime Celebration is here, and we're starting with a tour to cool off in the summertime! The new course Sky-High Sundae is full of ice cream, and it's here!". Say it's a new course to both games. Let's just leave out the prefixes for new non-city tracks, including Ninja Hideaway, despite mentioning the Tour prefix in promotional materal.- 08:33, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

Determining which game did Sky-High Sundae come from
A simple discussion doesn't seem enough, so it's time for a proposal.

Anyways, here are the points for both games:


 * Mario Kart 8 Deluxe: As per what said, Nintendo markets Sky-High Sundae as a new course for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Additionally, the course debuted earlier in that game compared to Mario Kart Tour, which would make it seem like this is clearly a new course for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.


 * Mario Kart Tour: But, there are many points that support that it was meant for Mario Kart Tour. First, the [[Media:MK8DX BCP Leak.jpg|datamined banner]]'s image for Sky-High Sundae matches up perfectly with the course icon. (as shown above). Secondly, the course's internal name in MKT is "mob", which is used for MKT's new courses. (Thanks to, we know that MK8DX's internal name does not provide any details). Third, MKT itself also classifies Sky-High Sundae as a new course. The introduction for the Sundae Tour uses this sentence: Sky-High Sundae will also appear in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe! Like what Mister Wu said, this means that Sky-High Sundae was likely supposed to be introduced here first, but there was a change in plan. The course also features a lot of Jump Boosts, and extremely wide roads, which is way more suitable for MKT. This is a speculative though, so you can feel free to disagree with this point.

An explanation for the MK8DX marketing could be that they wouldn't want to confuse players. Sure, we know all about Sky-High Sundae's puzzling situation, but for most regular players, it would be confusing if they marketed a course that first appeared in MK8DX as a MKT course. Also, voting for the do nothing option wouldn't help much either. Most of the information has already been found, so it doesn't seem like we'll get any new information from Nintendo just by waiting for a couple weeks or months.

Anyways, the aim of the proposal is to determine where is Sky-High Sundae is a new course. Though like Mister Wu said, this wouldn't mean we'll classify the other game as having Sky-High Sundae as a classic course. We could just put it in an other section. If there's any important information that I missed or was found later, please notify me in the comment section.

EDIT:Adding new both option per comment section.

Proposer: Deadline: August 24, 23:59 GMT

Consider Sky-High Sundae to be a Mario Kart Tour course

 * 1) Per all of the points stated.
 * 2) Primary choice. It’s not completely unheard of for things to debut in games before their intended debut: FE’s Roy was in Melee before Binding Blade, four Three Houses characters were in Heroes before Three Houses, Sonic was in Rad Mobile before his own franchise was even a thing (albeit as a cameo, but cameos are still appearances), so I find, given the info, there’s nothing wrong with treating this track as a Tour track first.
 * 3) Primary choice, per WildWario and Tails777.
 * 4) Primary choice. There's a reason why devs are categorizing all the tracks in filenames. Promotional materials can sometimes be wrong or just change the meaning to not make further confusion for the overall audience.

Consider Sky-High Sundae to be a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe course

 * 1) Ninja Hideaway doesn't use the Tour prefix in 8 Deluxe despite being introduced in Tour. I think we should just use the game a course debuts in unless Nintendo says otherwise, otherwise the wiki may become confusing and disorganized. This is especially true since it was marketed as a new course in 8 Deluxe. N64 Kalimari Desert 2 is a new track to Tour despite using the N64 prefix, similar to how Ninja Hideaway does't use the Tour prefix in 8. Besides, you can't say it debuted in 2 games when that's factually untrue. It was revealed in an 8 Deluxe trailer, debuted in 8 Deluxe, and was released in Tour nearly a week later.
 * 2) Second option, the track was in this game first.
 * 3) Regardless of whether it was first intended for Tour or not, I personally think we should be basing this on what the course's actual first appearance was. We don't say Hammer Bro is a returning character in Tour from when he was scrapped in Wii, so I don't see why this situation should be treated differently. Also, per Polterpup.

Consider the course to be a new course for both games

 * 1) Second option.
 * 2) Per Koopa Con Carne's comment
 * 3) Per all
 * 4) Per all the info we have; it's internally a Tour track, sure, but it's not marketed as belonging specifically to one of the two games, but rather both.
 * 5) I’m willing to meet on this middle ground too. Secondary option.
 * 6) Secondary option.
 * 7) I just think it's the better approach, since that's how it is currently presented in both games, for good reasons in both cases
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) Per all.
 * 10) Per all.
 * 11) Per Nintendo's own marketing. I've already explained above why I think the whole Fire Emblem comparison thing doesn't work, so I don't see the need to repeat myself.
 * 12) Secondary option.
 * 13) Per all; I was leaning onto "It's a Tour course", but we don't want confused casual readers.
 * 14) per all.

Comments
My preference: it's both a Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and a Mario Kart Tour course. It has no prefix in either game, and promotional material (namely horse's-mouth type of information such as the American and Japanese websites, brought up by above) squarely frame it as a new course while framing Ninja Hideaway as a mobile course; if said material doesn't outweigh the game's own stance, it at least competes with it through sheer recurrence. Besides, there was barely a week time between the course's two appearances, which does not really help its case as a "classic course". 09:05, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * I agree with Koopa Con Carne on this. 09:11, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

−
 * Fully agreed with this latter position. They had all the rights stating it was a completely new course when it debuted in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, at the same time they treated it as a new course in Mario Kart Tour too, which makes sense since it was announced just one day after its Booster Course Pass release and also because of all the hints the internal data as well as the tour paragraph gave us: it has been originally conceived as a Mario Kart Tour course. While for us the concept of a course that is new in both games gives us headache, all the official information points to Sky-High Sundae being just that. Really, I think the only way to present this course closer to how Nintendo is presenting it is simply presenting as new in both games while explaining what both the official information, the timing of release and the datamined information is telling us about this odd case in this page. If we need to adapt the wiki for that, let's adapt it! So I'd add this option among the choices.--Mister Wu (talk) 09:16, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

While I'm willing to regard Sky-High Sundae as both an 8DX and a Tour course at the same time, it would kind of leave to question what to do with its position on the MK race courses template: as to whether keep Sky-High Sundae in both Tour section and the 8DX Booster Course Pass section, or, as 7feetunder noted in the comment section of the currently ongoing "Merge city courses and Kalimari Desert layouts" proposal as an alternative, put Sky-High Sundae only in the Tour section and put an asterisk behind it, plus adding a note mentioning its simultaneous debut in the Booster Course Pass. I personally would go for the latter option, because, if the aforementioned proposal passes, it would leave Sky-High Sundae as the only course in the Booster Course Pass section, and with the course also being in the template's Tour section, it would make the entire section feel pointless and/or confusing. Arend (talk) 10:57, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * Honestly, we don't need a crystal ball to see where this story is going: all the non-prefixed courses in the Booster Course Pass (including Ninja Hideaway and Merry Mountain) will be passed in the future as "Switch" courses since these are literally the only racecourses that can have said prefix, it doesn't matter if they were actually developed for another game. At best, they'll still consider them new in Mario Kart Tour as well, the game they were originally developed for. Watch the same story happen in the next console game as well, if Mario Kart Tour lives long enough. If they indeed go on with this plan, we'll have to keep all the non-prefixed courses of the pass in that section of the template to reflect their future prefix.--Mister Wu (talk) 23:06, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

See comments per my vote. Polterpup (talk) 12:31, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * Uh... this is the comments section. Is this supposed to be swapped with what you have written for the SHS = MK8D course voting section above? Arend (talk) 12:59, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * Also, I'm not sure bringing up would be the best example, given that, if the aforementioned "Merge city courses and Kalimari Desert layouts" proposal ends up succeeding in a couple of days, Kalimari Desert 2 will end up merging with the original  anyway. Arend (talk) 12:59, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

We can't list it as debuting in Tour when that's untrue. We list Ninja Hideaway as from Tour despite it not having a prefix in 8 Deluxe. Polterpup (talk) 12:33, August 10, 2022 (EDT)
 * Technically speaking, one can argue that Sky-High Sundae has been teased for Tour before it was officially announced for 8 Deluxe. At the very least, the Ice Cream Mii Racing Suit for the Sundae Tour was in the Wave 11 trailer. Maybe a bit of a stretchy point, but Mario Kart Tour has definitely used Mii Racing Suit silhouette teasers before to hint at an upcoming Tour, or an element from it (such as the silhouette for the Petey Piranha Mii Racing Suit to tease the Piranha Plant Tour and Petey Piranha). The silhouette for the Ice Cream Mii Racing Suit was definitely hinting at something ice cream-related, if not Sky-High Sundae itself, for what's coming after the Ocean Tour. Arend (talk) 13:10, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

Nintendo really made some loopholes with "48 remastered courses in the BCP". I could say it's a course made for Tour internally, but Nintendo says it's a new course for 8 Deluxe according to promotional material. I would want to add in that the phone notification has said it's also a new course for Tour, without any mention it's from 8 Deluxe. Quote:
 * "The second part of the Summertime Celebration is here, and we're starting with a tour to cool off in the summertime! The new course Sky-High Sundae is full of ice cream, and it's here!"

It would be wise to say it's a new course for both games, because the course is promoted for both games, not only 8 Deluxe. It is kinda fits with the "cross-promotion between both games". I would think we should leave out the "Tour" prefix for Ninja Hideaway as well, until the course gets its next appearance in another Mario Kart game (also applies to Merry Mountain and future "Tour" non-city courses). - 20:26, August 10, 2022 (EDT)

@Hewer I don't think the Hammer Bro comparison is a very good one here, as you said Hammer Bro was scrapped for Wii obviously meaning he wasn't actually used, so Mario Kart Tour would be his first Mario Kart appearance (as a driver at least). Sky High Sundae however was used in the final product of the Booster Course Pass and Tour. 07:21, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * That's precisely my point - we count Hammer Bro's Mario Kart debut as Tour because he didn't actually appear in Wii even though he was planned to, and by that same logic I think we should count Sky-High Sundae as an 8DX course because that was its first appearance, even if it was planned for Tour first. 08:10, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * That's not what Swallow is saying, I believe. They were saying that unlike Hammer Bro in Mario Kart Wii, Sky-High Sundae in Tour eventually DID come true... not only like a day after it came out for 8 Deluxe, but also teased with the Ice Cream Mii Suit silhouette before Sky-High Sundae was announced for 8 Deluxe. Your point would've been more valid if, say, Hammer Bro eventually became a playable character in Mario Kart Wii AFTER he became playable in Mario Kart Tour. Then again, support Mario Kart Tour is still ongoing with new content every two weeks, while Mario Kart Wii's last original tournament was in August of 2010 (tournaments were pretty much the only ongoing support of Nintendo for Mario Kart Wii), and support officially ended in May of 2014, around the same time Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection was discontinued. Arend (talk) 10:38, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * My point isn't that Sky-High Sundae was never intended or hinted at to come out in Tour, what I'm saying is that whether it was originally intended to come out in Tour first or not shouldn't matter because it ended up coming out in 8DX first, so it's an 8DX course, in much the same way that Hammer Bro is a character introduced to the series in Tour because his first actual Mario Kart appearance was in Tour regardless of being intended for Wii first. 13:39, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * Thing is, the release was spaced by a few days, not months or years, and not only the internal data, but even Nintendo's own wording indicates that the course was originally developed for Mario Kart Tour and then released early on the Booster Course Pass as a very smart move to have a way better selling point in a completely new course, instead of just another course from Mario Kart Tour (which was the original plan according to the "48 remastered courses" wording, as well as the wording of used in the Sundae Tour). In any case, it's clear how both the Mario Kart Tour and the Booster Course Pass versions were developed together, and as such they were presented as new in both games by Nintendo itself, in what is basically the first case of a release of a course in two games instead of just one.--Mister Wu (talk) 14:17, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * Again, regardless of what the course was originally developed for, I think we should be classifying it based on what its actual debut ended up being, i.e. 8DX, and the Booster Course Pass's advertising after Sky-High Sundae's announcement is very consistent with referring to it as a new course in 8DX (which notably doesn't apply to its fellow prefix-less course Ninja Hideaway). Even if the same applies to Tour, I think that the fact it came to 8DX first should be the deciding factor here, regardless of how long the gap was between releases. 21:16, August 11, 2022 (EDT)
 * As I said before, Sky-High Sundae was technically teased for Tour prior to it being announced for 8 Deluxe. Like I said to Polterpup, the Ice Cream Mii Suit's silhouette was revealed for Wave 12 of the Mii suits in the Wave 11 trailer for the Ocean Tour, at the very least teasing an ice cream-themed Tour following the Ocean Tour (as Mii suit silhouettes sometimes do that, especially in this case since ice cream is so specific and non-Mario-like). And considering the Tour updates frequent every two weeks (teased on a Thursday on the second week of a tour, announced the following Friday, and starting the next Wednesday), and seem to be planned far ahead of time, it was definitely planned to have this Sundae Tour announced or released around the same time as Wave 2 of the Booster Course Pass. It was made and planned for Tour, and since the Booster Course Pass is very likely to include all Tour courses in case Tour is going to discontinue, there's a definite plan to just coincide Sky-High Sundae's debuts in Tour AND 8 Deluxe around the same time. We know that the course was still initially meant for Tour, as all Tour marketing still regard Sky-High Sundae as a new course; it's simply also regarded as a new course for 8 Deluxe as that's more marketable and enticing (and since it hadn't been officially revealed for Tour yet), so for all intents and purposes, Nintendo wants us to see it as a new course for both games (unless they decide to sneakily add a to Sky-High Sundae on the Booster Course Pass website in the future, but that's mere speculation). Arend (talk) 07:02, August 12, 2022 (EDT)

It's been mentioned in here before, but my primary concern is where we put it in the race courses template. While I do think thinking about it as a Tour and 8 Deluxe course is ideal, that doesn't really answer that question. I don't want to put it in two places on the template, so I think we should just put it in the Tour section since the 8DX section has no other tracks in it right now. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:49, August 14, 2022 (EDT)