MarioWiki:Proposals

List of talk page proposals

 * Split into Adult Shine Block and Small Shine Block. (Discuss) Deadline: December 1, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Writing guidelines
None at the moment.

New features
None at the moment.

Removals
None at the moment.

Clarify the Wiki's policy on APNG images in .png files
The replacement of .gif files with .apng files is not yet viable due to the lack of support on the browsers that have the majority of market share. There is however, a second case which is similar but also importantly different: that of APNG images in .png files. The first frame of this kind of images is shown by all browsers that support PNG images but not APNG images. In fact,, the Wiki infrastructure already supports them as well, to the point that the details about the animation are shown next to the image name, and there is even a warning message about the automatically generated thumbnails not being animated. The current image use policies don't forbid them either, the only way to know that they are not recommended is seeing an old proposal.

At this point, I think a final clarification on this special kind of images should be done, and since it is impossible for them to be used for all kinds of animation, I see two possible policies, beside that of not changing anything:

TOLERANCE

The APNG images in .png files should be tolerated in special cases where the first frame is already informative enough, while not being mentioned in the policies in order to avoid suggesting their use; for example, a rescaled (250px of width) version of my example image might seem viable for infoboxes (please note that it won't be actually used as such, it's just an example image!), as the first frame is already informative enough, while the animation is a welcome plus. Note that this scenario does not enforce modifying the current infrastructure to generate animated thumbnails; while this would be a welcome feature, ultimately an user using this kind of images should also take on themselves the burden of uploading and using versions of said images with appropriate width and height on the Wiki, with due notices when this needs to happen and it's not happening.

COMPLETE AVOIDANCE

The current image use policies should be updated to explicitly forbid the use of APNG images in .png files, automated measures to issue warnings on APNG images on .png files might be done as well, but they are not part of this choice, since the Wiki staff should be able to handle the few cases in which these images are uploaded already well.

Proposer: Deadline: November 26, 2016 December 3, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Tolerance

 * 1) I still think that, while they cannot fully replace GIF images and they cannot even be suggested as viable format for animated images, the APNG images on .png files can be useful in cases like the one I mentioned.
 * 2) For me, a static picture on my end would be better than a bad looking picture. And when the day comes that Google does support APNGs, APNGs will become more popular. Especially since GIFs are outdated a bit. I support APNGs in PNGs.
 * 3) I've been supportive in the past of APNG's that enhance the visual experience without being required, per that. Also see my comment below.

Complete avoidance

 * 1) See my comments below.

Not changing anything

 * 1) See my comments below.
 * 2) - Per Wildgoosespeeder and because I don't want any last-minute votes in favor deciding something as important.
 * 3) Per all. I didn't realize I hadn't voted yet.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) I think it's better to abstain until Chrome officially has APNG, which we hope won't be far away. Until then, we should just continue as we should.

Comments
Quoting myself from here: "There is no such thing as a .apng file, in the same fashion as there isn't a .agif file. The extension is always .png, animated or not." Be mindful of this. Bulbapedia is a good example of good use. A lot, if not most sprites are APNG's over there. They don't appear to have any form of policy that I could find on it though, everyone just seems to go with it and tag them with a template. 15:03, 19 November 2016 (EST)
 * Should we then create a template that highlights the nature of the APNG? The bold warning below the text may not be immediately apparent. 19:26, 19 November 2016 (EST)
 * A template more or less is a must-have to avoid people replacing them with static images. Here's an example of usage. To illustrate the effect, two animated sprites are used in the template, with the warning not to replace the image if neither sprite moves. Images are also categorised. We should have a similar template to warn users to not upload static images (minus the first frame thing, as that isn't always the case). 04:04, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * On a side note, the bold message is from MediaWiki:File-no-thumb-animation or MediaWiki:File-no-thumb-animation-png. These can be customized to be more prominent or suppressed in favor of a template notice. -- 08:53, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * Thanks, though those pages are for the Wiki's main language (US English) only and won't affect users with a different display language. 16:43, 20 November 2016 (EST)

Although the quality is nice and can completely replace GIF, APNG is not a mainstream format nor is it an official format like GIF is. Internet Explorer doesn't support it and Google Chrome requires a plug-in. Also PNG Monstrous doesn't play nice with it because it removes metadata, and I think APNG's frames are metadata to the PNG format. Also what are some programs that could be used to create these APNGs? It would be much better to distinguish APNG with PNG by extension instead of a template. I think that MediaWiki can support the extension, judging by Special:MediaStatistics. MNG is being developed by the same group as PNG so there will be a distinction unlike PNG and APNG, but no MediaWiki support yet. -- 04:49, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * MNG has already been released, but no browser development team wants to support it (Mozilla dropped support in its browsers in 2003); currently it's impossible to upload .apng images on this wiki (I tested this personally); the program you can use to create those APNG images are GIMP (I personally used it to create my example image) and VirtualDub (which I used to create this image); finally you're right, the other frames are in the ancillary chunks, meaning you should not use optimizers that get rid of ancillary chunks in these kinds of images (you should never get rid of ancillary chunks, by the way, as there are also those about gamma (gAMA chunk) and color space (cHRM, iCCP and sRGB), so you should seriously reconsider the use of these kinds of optimizations).--Mister Wu (talk) 06:26, 20 November 2016 (EST)


 * There is no reason to go about MNG as absolutely no support exists for it whatsoever, which isn't the case with APNG. Secondly, PNG is build around chunks, of which Mister Wu named a few. Some are indeed metadata, no problem (some of which you shouldn't delete, like author and copyright comments), others are used for the right display, gamma and animation chunks being examples. Optimisers just need to support these chucks in order to be viable, either be optimising them or ignoring them. The way PNG is build up makes the metadata-ness of a chunk up to what it does, not it's build. Another editor to add to Mr. Wu's list is RealWorld Paint, and there are some programs you can feed separate PNG's and frame durations. 06:42, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * This brings up an interesting question about how to optimize APNGs. Just like Photoshop, GIMP doesn't optimize its output if saved in the PNG format. PNG was never designed to be animated because the group thought that it would be dumb to add confusion to the format. Are there any programs that just "stitch together" PNGs to be outputted as APNG (no loading of the image to just be resaved and undo optimizations)? That's the only way I see optimization happen with APNGs. --!
 * I think this is outside the scope of the proposal, but I believe that most outputters will only save the changed region of the image as a frame, i.e. if only a small region changes, only that region is saved. This is according to standard and is good practice anyway. A frame is saved in the exact same format as a normal PNG image (though all frames must use the same format), just named differently. You can choose to replace the entire aforementioned region, or paint over it, the latter being a good thing if the region doesn't change much, but does contain a lot of detail. Enough optimisation opportunities. 16:43, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * THe APNG specification allows to code differences from previous frames using the Alpha channel, indeed, when adding the Alpha Channel in VirtualDub I obtained smaller file sizes in two cases I tested, in the case of my aforementioned example, without Alpha Channel the size is 224 MB, with Alpha Channel the size is 135 MB, so there are indeed many possible ways to optimize the output files; some of which are apparently already in use by current software.--Mister Wu (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2016 (EST)

Here's a different question; do APNGs work in iOS or Android? Also since the whole file is downloaded and nothing gets animated if it isn't supported, this could be really be detrimental to people with slow or metered connections. I'm pretty sure that GIF is massively supported and preferred in these cases. -- 18:24, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * They work in iOS, and are even used and recommended for iMessage. They will likely be supported in Android as soon as Google Chrome supports them (this might happen earlier than expected, as development should start in Q4 of this year according to the Google Chrome staff). Regarding the concern of data use, my example, despite being formed by 7 frames at 786 × 890 resolution at 32 bits per pixel (8 bits per color channel + 8 bits Alpha channel), is still a 686 KB file, while the GIF is a 345 KB file despite being palettized; since there is a 10MB upload limit on the Wiki and due to the nature of the proposal, the APNG images would be used mostly for in-game data, which is easily compressible with the PNG format.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:03, 20 November 2016 (EST)
 * For the sake of correctness, neither of the images were optimized; using GIMP's "Optimize (for GIF)" command I could reduce the file size of the GIF file to 201 kB, while the APNG image, optimized with APNG Optimizer 1.4 and 15 iterations of Zopfli, has now a size of 276 kB; I could verify that in the latter case the optimizations didn't change the images using APNG Disassembler 2.8 on both the original and optimized version and comparing the individual frames with WinMerge 2.14, showing that indeed there were no changes in each of the frames. I'm sorry for having reported data about unoptimized images, hopefully this wasn't relevant for the votes.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:59, 27 November 2016 (EST)

The deadline in this proposal was not supposed to be extended; the not changing anything option won. 19:18, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * Current rule 9 still is All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of all votes cast must be for a single option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options., though. At this point, we need a clarification from the staff.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:27, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * There are eight total votes, four cast for "not changing anything". That's not more than half, five votes would have been needed. -- 20:50, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * Thanks for the clarification!--Mister Wu (talk) 21:15, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * No problem :) -- 11:28, 27 November 2016 (EST)
 * But you misunderstood the proposal I linked to. There are 7 voters; as 1 voter picked multiple options. Because of that proposal; that is what counts, not the fact that there are 8 votes. There are 4 votes for the not changing anything option. That is a majority of voters (4 to 3); just as was decided to be necessary by the linked proposal.  11:37, 27 November 2016 (EST)
 * The archives say that even though that proposal passed, the change hasn't been made yet. For some reason. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:56, 27 November 2016 (EST)
 * We are currently reviewing this case and I'll get back to you. -- 11:57, 27 November 2016 (EST)

Redesign the Bestiaries
Following a proposal from January to redesign the RPG infoboxes and bestiaries, I propose a new way to handle bestiaries and RPG infoboxes from now on.
 * 1) All bestiaries will use templates rather than tables. ( look here ) - This gives a more appealing look, like an ID card, and makes it easier to fill out future bestiaries.
 * 2) Each template will be based on the respective RPG infobox - Doing this keeps the enemy stats consistent between the bestiary and infobox.
 * 3) All RPG infoboxes will use transclusion to display stats directly from the bestiary. ( look here ) - This makes distributing the infoboxes to each page easier, and ensures the infoboxes will ALWAYS have the exact same stats as the bestiary.

Now here is the code to display the Super Mario RPG bestiary template:

Proposer: Deadline: November 29, 2016, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) per my proposal
 * 2) Looks good to me! It looks like a lot of effort was put into it.
 * 3) Per Eldritchdraaks. It would be a lot of work to implement this idea, but a lot easier in the long run.
 * 4) Per Eldritchdraaks.
 * 5) – Per proposal, this is very logical.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) This really seems to simplify the editing work and to avoid inconsistencies between bestiaries and infoboxes, so I support the idea!
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9)  Per all.
 * 10) It is about time I supported. I am not going to wait any longer. I didn't want to discourage other people from going first. Anyways, one of the reason why the Once and only once policy was enforced was because of the need to keep everything updated and editors may not get to all versions. This new proposal will transfer all information and even if it does break the Once and only once policy (which will most likely not happen due to the information needing to be both on the bestiary and the enemy which is part of the bestiary), it will not break the reason why it was enforced because if the bestiary is updated, the other places will automatically update and the editor won't have to worry about the other versions. And sorry if this is quite long, but I needed to say something about it kind of helping out the Once and only once policy.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Have my support.
 * 13) Per all.
 * 14) Per all.
 * 15) Per all, this is a great idea! Each game should have it's own template to transclude from as needed. I have a few further maintenance ideas that I will work on though.
 * 16) Per all.
 * 17) Per proposal

Comments
Do the color-scheme you use for the templates here will be implement if your proposal passed? Walkazo's RPG infoboxes use the same colour-scheme as navigation templates for consistency, neatness and easy readability and in my opinion those color-scheme are better.-- 12:30, 22 November 2016 (EST)
 * The colors I used are not set in stone. I used the header color from the tables in each bestiary. The color-scheme will not be the same as the navigation templates, rather they will be different for each game.-- 12:45, 22 November 2016 (EST)

It looks like you thought everything through, but do we have to use your name to use the template? That seems a little inconvenient. And I agree with Ultimate Mr. L up there; it would take a while to implement them. 12:49, 22 November 2016 (EST)
 * No, you won't, don't worry. That is just temporary. That links to the bestiary page for that game, which right now is my userspace.-- 13:00, 22 November 2016 (EST)

This idea is fantastic, the template will indeed ensure that any stat corrections on the bestiary will automatically be corrected on the transcluded articles as well. I do have a question first: do you intend to only apply this to specific character bestiary pages, such as "List of Goomba profiles and statistics"? Or is there the potential to extend this to game bestiaries as well, such as "Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam bestiary"? 18:02, 22 November 2016 (EST)
 * Everything you just said is exactly what I am proposing. This applies to all.-- 18:26, 22 November 2016 (EST)


 * Great, definitely supporting. I asked because I wasn't positive that it was taken into account with the single example that you gave. 19:25, 22 November 2016 (EST)
 * I didn't give just a single example. I provided two links above to show the templates in use, and to show the stats transcluded to the infobox.-- 19:31, 22 November 2016 (EST)

Having all the data in one place is definitely good yet there remain small tables like Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time § Enemies. Any idea to make them in sync too? -- 04:46, 25 November 2016 (EST)
 * Those would likely be replaced with enemy boxes. -- 12:05, 25 November 2016 (EST)
 * And become a duplication of the bestiary? I'd like there to be another template (in addition to and ) that extracts the HP, EXP, coin and location and put them into the original tables, because they looks so nice, and the misc stats will be too cumbersome when folded into cards. This also makes a sortable version of the bestiary available. -- 03:09, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * It just seems unnecessary. Actually, it should probably be removed due to the "Once and Only Once policy". Your idea for a second template like the bestiary template doesn't make sense. That template creates a nice display on the bestiary page, it doesn't affect the enemy box at all. I get what you're going for though, but I can't setup another template like you want without breaking the first the system. Still the table there should probably go, even if my proposal doesn't pass.-- 03:30, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * If we're to remove the tables under Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time, what should go there then? -- 03:40, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * See Paper Mario: Color Splash-- 04:22, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * Worse comes to worse, if some people can't be bothered to look at previous edits of a bestiary's history when as a sortable table -- and believe me, there are folks out there that would still prefer to sort through enemies' stats, and that was my intention when making most of the bestiaries anyway -- then I suppose having an external link to such a version would be alright? --
 * Actually, using the history isn't that bad of an idea. PM, PMTTYD, and PMCS could be replaced with a sortable table, then we could revert that edit and place a link to it on the current page. But I still think having a second table like that on the main article would be against the "Once and Only Once" policy. It has to be directly transcluded from the bestiary, and we can't do that from template to table, or vice versa.-- 12:48, 26 November 2016 (EST)
 * It's possible with  and then  . Another approach is to implement an ad-hoc  ment that output code for a table row, besides ,   and   that output infoboxes. Haven't tried either approach, though. -- 00:06, 27 November 2016 (EST)
 * Actually, I think it would be best to do it just like Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. Here, only the bosses of the game are listed, and the bestiary is linked just above it. The formatting is decent, and the same thing is done for Super Paper Mario and Paper Mario: Sticker Star. After looking over the articles for the Mario & Luigi games, there really is a lot of content that doesn't need to be on the main article, especially the enemy tables.-- 06:14, 27 November 2016 (EST)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.