MarioWiki talk:Coverage

Limiting article creations
I don't like that. While we should have main focuses and sub-focuses, the articles that we want created will eventually be created no matter what. Limiting the number of articles one can create in a week just slows down the wiki. -- Steve (talk) http://www.porplemontage.com/images/firefox_27x15.png 21:42, 31 October 2006 (EST)
 * However, # of new pages is also the easiest to keep track of at Special:Newpages. Do you suggest a higher general limit instead? 22:45, 31 October 2006 (EST)

Honestly, wouldn't this just slow us down! Plus, it would be kinda irratating to keep checking the amount of pages and make sure the limit hasn't been violated... 3dejong

The problem is this is the Super Mario Wiki, not the Banjo-Kazooie wiki. Limits are meant to ensure that secondary and tertiary articles don't dominate this wiki at the expense of Mario. If it is the consensus of the wiki not to keep limits, that's fine by me. However, we should still keep this page to inform people of the focus of this wiki. -- Son of Suns

Shouldn't this be updated now.
 * I'll revise it tomorrow or Monday – maybe move it to a page about what topic goes to what wiki. 11:35, 30 December 2006 (EST)

spin-offs
Are there any Banjo, Conker, or any other Donkey Kong series spin-offs where a new character stars in his/her own game?----

Well... I think Timber might have had his own game planned, but it was cancelled, aside from that, no. There are rumors of a Squirrel High Command and Tediz game, both of those are from Conker's Bad Fur Day/Conker: Live & Reloaded, but, those are just rumors. -- Sir Grodus

What's Tediz?----
 * Robo killer teddy bears. Blah. Anyway, this sounds OK. Just the main stuff.. cool.

Media
Should stuff be mentioned about the tv series, the real life people, etc.?


 * A new policy is in the works. It will cover what you have mentioned. -- Son of Suns

Items and Arenas
Sorry if this has been asked before but... should we make articles for the items and arena's that appear in the SSB series? - User: Ultimatetoad


 * Those would be legitimate articles. But remember SSB is of secondary importance, so please try to focus on Mario games more than these articles. Also remember to add only SSB categories. -- Son of Suns

What about cameo characters? (Wolf.O.Donnel and Ridley both appear in the opening movie, and dont forget Tingle). What about the Pokemon that come out of Poke-balls? What about Trophies? - User: Ultimatetoad

I need an answer soon, anybody?


 * Cameo characters- don't affect gameplay, so should probably just be mentioned in the SSB game articles. Any character that affects gameplay, like Tingle, can have an article. We can have an article explaining trophies (complete with a list of trophies), but all the characters and items featured in trophies should not have articles. All the Pokemon should be in the PokeBall article. -- Son of Suns

Thank you. - User: Ultimatetoad

FA
Sorry if I overlooked this, but is it possible for a secondary or tertiary article to reach FA? -- Y ' o ' s ' h ' i ' 6 ' 2  6  20:59, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Yes. If good enough. -- Son of Suns

Diddy Kong Racing DS
Hello, everyone! As you all know, Conker and Banjo have been replaced by Dixie and Tiny Kong in the remake of Diddy Kong Racing. The issue here is whether or not that means their connection to the Mario universe should be erased as a result? Is DKR DS a rewritting of the story or should it be considered that DKR DS is just a simple romp with no significance on timeline or Mario's universe?

If we consider this a rewritting, it implies that Diddy Kong and friends never met Banjo or Conker. It would follow that they don't "exist" in Mario's universe per se... right? I know that I shouldn't assume that just because Banjo and Conker didn't come to the aid of Timber and Diddy that Banjo and Conker don't exist, but if we do assume that they do, it's almost like saying that Link inhabits the same world as Mario, and Link is, as stating in the policy, not getting the red carpet treatment that Conker, Banjo, Mario, and the rest will be getting.

So, here's how I see it: 1. DKR DS is a rewritting on the story. Solution: Banjo and Conker should be removed from the Marioverse (which makes me sad, I love Banjo... and the innocent Conker) 2. DKR DS has no effect on the original storyline and is an excuse to revive a classic N64 game. Solution: Dixie Kong and Tiny Kong didn't come to Diddy's aid. 3.DKR and DKR DS both tell different aspects of the same story. Solution: Dixie, Tiny, Banjo, and Conker were present. 4. [proposed by Wayoshi, see below] DKR and DKR DS are two completely separate events.

Let me know what you guys think! --Stumpers
 * I think it's a whole other story, after the original DKR, leaving Banjo & Conker on the border of the Marioverse. Maybe something in-game can confirm that. 06:57, 2 February 2007 (EST)

We will definately have to wait for the game to come out before we can reevaluate our position on the subject. According to some material, DKR DS may be a sequel (like DKL is to DKC). -- Son of Suns


 * If amnything, 3. Everyone wins. And even so, its needs some official backup whether one's canon or not, or its an opinion, which is even more non-canocal --  16:35, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Guess will know the answer in five days.... -- Sir Grodus


 * Thanks for responding, everyone! I look forward to the release, then.  What I've seen of the game makes it seem like a retelling (the intro is almost identical to the story in the N64 version's manual), so I din't think we should immeadiately jump to a conclusion if Nintendo confirms that its a sequel, since all "sequel" really means is a game that was created after the original... right?  Oh, and have a fun Super Bowl, everyone!  Stumpers


 * Well, if we're going to remove information just because it isn't canon we might as well remove articles like Super Mario Bros. Super Show and Hotel Mario. - Hyper Mushroom.

The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! was just based on Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 2, I don't think it was supposed to have that weird "Ultimate Spider-Man: The Game"-esque canon. And is there anything really discarding Hotel Mario from the continuity? -- Sir Grodus


 * That isn't the point. The point is that if we remove information just because it isn't canon this just wouldn't be a wiki. - Hyper Mushroom

The difference is that this is the Super Mario Wiki, and games like Hotel Mario or cartoons like the Super Mario Bros. Super Show are not non-canon; they are either low-level canon, or alternate canon. They are still depictions of Mario. However, Banjo and Conker have nothing to do with Mario, outside of their tertiary connection to the Donkey Kong universe. As such, what happens in the Banjo and Conker series may be non-canon in the Mario series (instead of just being a low level of canon). Again, we'll have to see what the game says. -- Son of Suns

Weeeeeel, this is a wiki for Mario, and his SPIN-OFFS. No matter what way you look at it, Banjo and Conker both came from the Mario series. - User: Ultimatetoad


 * This is a wiki for franchises that exist in the same world as Mario. If there is a retcon, Banjo and Conker would exist independently of Mario, and thus would not be a part of his universe. They would no longer be important to the Super Mario Wiki. -- Son of Suns

The Banjo series is unnafected because Titup,a Banjo character, is present in Diddy kong racing DS--Gofer


 * Why would something go non-canon because of a remake? We still have Super Mario 64 articles here, despite its remake for the DS. Diddy Kong Racing will still exist even when DKR DS is a remake. Cobold 15:56, 13 February 2007 (EST)

Look at the comment of Sons of Suns. --Gofer

Super Mario 64 DS is almost the same as Super Mario 64, but harder and with some other changes. I guess Tiptup's and a Gnawty's appearance(s) in the Banjo-Kazooie and the fact Mario is mentioned in a few Banjo-Kazooie games (more as a joke though) would still make Banjo fit. Conker, well, I guess he could have an article, I don't know about his series. Man, this is hard, stupid continuity shift. -- Sir Grodus

Well, in the retcon, Tiptup could be a cameo character, not an in-universe character. I don't know if DKR DS is a remake or a sequel though. Also, "canon" info about Super Mario 64 should actually be about Super Mario 64 DS, but gameplay issues can still be addressed independently. -- Son of Suns

Are you talking about his appearance in Diddy kong racing ds or in Banjo game?He's playable in Diddy kong racing ds and he teach move in Banjo kazooie and tooie. --User: Gofer


 * Banjo-Kazooie. Bottles and Jamjars teach moves. Tiptup has a turtle orchestra and an egg in BK 1 and 2 respectibly. -- Son of Suns


 * So that means Banjo Kazooie is canon no matter what. And Banjo makes a cameo in bad fur day (As a hunting trophy) meaning the same for Conker! Sorted!

I don't think that "cameo" is supposed to be taken seriously. -- Sir Grodus

Remember, Tiptup is not the star of the two series. He is a minor character - a cameo even, simply because he appeared in DKR. Cameos happen all the time, but we don't have articles covering all of the Legend of Zelda or Bomberman series. DKR DS may indicate that Banjo and Conker have cut their ties to Mario's world - that Mario and Banjo could never meet and chat and talk. It's called a retcon - where the canon is reorganized. Again, I will say that I don't know if DKR DS is a total remake or a sequel, so the question of Banjo and Conker is still up in the air. -- Son of Suns


 * Whatever. I don't think their connection with the Marioverse was meant to be taken seriously anyway. There was no further mention of the Marioverse from that point, apart from a cameo from Gnawty in Banjo Kazooie and music from Donkey Kong Land in Pocket Tales. Other than that a simple, pointless appearance in Diddy Kong Racing is our only connection. - Hyper Mushroom

Stumpers' massive discussion
Hey, everyone. Bare with me here, because I believe this may be a little touchy, but I believe it is important. I would like to note that the entire concept of "Marioverse" is non-canon, yet it is covered extensively in the Wiki. "Tertiary, secondary, primary" are also non-canon in respect to the Mario series. DK and friends do not inhabit a different dimension than Mario. However, these are fine guidelines for governing this Wiki. As such, it is completely fine for us as a community to govern concepts exclusive to Wikis. However, it is not right in my opinion for us as a community to govern what is canon and non-canon in terms of remakes of games such as Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario 64 DS. Both were made by Nintendo, with no official statement as to which we should go off of. I read up above that we're assuming that Super Mario 64 DS is to be considered a rewriting of the Super Mario 64 episode. Nintendo has made no comment on this issue whatsoever, meaning that:

(1) Super Mario 64 occurred, DS did not or (2) Super Mario 64 DS occurred, but the original did not, or (3) they were two different occurrences: both happened, or (4) they happened simultaneously, with some truths from each applying to each story.

As you can see, the task in front of us is incredible, requiring assumptions, and therefore non-canon, to describe the situation. Here is my idea: follow Nintendo's example and turn a blind eye for the purpose of the Wiki, noting the discrepancy where it appears. This is obviously a temporary solution, but a solution just the same.

Let's apply this to Diddy Kong Racing DS. We cannot turn a blind eye because doing so places Conker and Banjo in limbo. Are they or are they not part of the Mario's universe, and thus part of the Marioverse? However, there is a safe way to do this, similar to how I believe we should resolve Super Mario 64 DS.

Go ahead and make the articles for Conker and Banjo games, characters, etc, noting with a special template the issue at hand. How about this: "The following article is about an element that may or may not be part of the Marioverse due to remakes of previous games."

Sound good? No? How about solution number 2, then: consolidate all Banjo articles under one massive article and all Conker articles under another massive article, thus reducing the size of the Wiki, which I believe is an issue right now?

Thank you for your time and consideration! --Stumpers

P.S. On a partially related note, I also feel that it is incorrect to govern similar issues based on "cross-overs" vs. "cameos" vs. series that originated in the Mario universe. They all appeared in the games, and to make further assumptions would be to risk non-canon.


 * Yes. The Importance Policy has nothing to do with official canon, only what the wiki wants to emphasize about Mario and various spin-off franchises. The problem with remakes is that Nintendo did not have to make them in the first place. They could have ported the game, which they do with many other titles. Remakes, simply for the fact of being created, imply a newer, refined version of the game. Just as the GBA remake of Yoshi's Island corrects things in the original (as in the color of the Pink Yoshi, or refering to the babies as "brothers" as opposed to "twins"), so do other remakes. This indicates a part on Nintendo to correct what was wrong with the original - we as fans should respect these decisions as being the truest representation of the game. I do agree that we should cover the differences between versions, but also give emphasis to the newer title (as I have done in both Yoshi and Goomba in regards to SM64). Many Donkey Kong articles also state both versions. Both versions are acceptable, and both are canonical, just that one is less "true" than the other, but not implying that one completely replaces the other. Both should be focused, but the remake should be emphasized. As far as Banjo and Conker go, I do believe the characters should have articles at this wiki. As far as anything only in those franchises, the question is not really of what is more canonical. As you pointed out, both are kinda canonical, but as I have argued one should have more emphasis than the other. The questions now is, are Banjo and Conker so far removed from Mario games, should they even be represented here? The original DKR showed that Banjo and Conker were part of the same world as Donkey Kong. But with the release of DKR DS, are the Banjo and Conker series still relevant to this wiki? Does the community believe they are important? Maybe we should bring this to a vote, including some of Stumpers suggestions (like the template (something along the lines of "This article is of ambigious significance to the Mario series."); however I think consolidating everything about the Banjo and Conker series would be way too big - either articles stay, are marked with a template, or are deleted (and possible moved to a new wiki!)). -- Son of Suns

P.S. I don't understand your last point in the PS section.

The P.S. just means that I think we are taking to many liberties in deciding who and what is part of Mario's universe, like with the Super Smash Bros. issue. I agree that we shouldn't cover the entire LoZ universe, but I believe we come to judgements based on our feelings sometimes. But, that's a problem when Nintendo doesn't tell us what's up, right? Okay, so here's the take-home message: as far as this website is concerned, do what you want, cover what you want, etc. It's not under my control as a simple contributer. However, I really hope that we can refrain from taking the assumptions we've made in our heads and passing them off as fact, which I have been burned for. Take a look at Wikipedia, for example the topic of the singer Enya: in the "Best of" album, part of a particular song is cut out ("On My Way Home", if you want to know). It happens to be one of the most beautiful parts of the song, and adds diversity to the piece overall (if you own "Memory of Trees", listen for the flute part in On My Way Home, it's gone in the "Best of"). I don't think Wikipedia users would put up with the statement, "Enya's song 'On My Way Home' originally contained a flute solo. Enya later realized that it did not fit the song and removed it." Regardless of whether or not this is true we cannot assume anything unless the artist or even a source close to her confirms it, just as we cannot assume that Miyamoto decided later that he wanted Mario and Luigi to be brothers rather than twins. On a side note, any two babies from the same Mom delivered within the period of time that Mario and Luigi were delivered can only be twins, whether or not they are identical twins. For two siblings not to be twins, they must have a substantial amount of time between delivieries, probably more than 9 months, as there must be two separate pregnancies, which, correct me if I'm wrong, bring two different storks? Have you played Yoshi's Island 2 DS, and if so was Wario delivered along with Waluigi? If not, and if we agree they are brothers (Nintendo Power issue on Mario Tennis N64, I believe), then that would prove my point that Mario and Luigi are both twins and brothers. Phew. As you can see, a simple rewrite of one word or a remake of a game do not necessarily mean that the game's creaters wanted to change a given fact. I hope that makes sense. Until tomorrow! --Stumpers


 * Restrictions between series are meant to prevent the Super Mario Wiki from becoming a general Nintendo Wiki, something I think you understand. We need to stop making assumptions and concentrate one fact. Remakes and the originals should be covered; but we should cover both, and, I believe, emphasize the remake (but it's not that big of a deal). Of course, you are making assumptions by stating that a pregnancy takes nine months in the Mario universe. We don't know that. But we do know, according to the YI remake instruction manual, that Mario and Luigi were born in the same day, thus making them "twins". In regards to YI DS, only Wario is in the game, but there are many storks. Waluigi and Wario are ambigiously brothers, but the games themselves refrain from saying this outright. Anyways, I think we've come to an agreement, and look for changes in this wiki to occur soon. -- Son of Suns

I agree with you on all counts here. As long as we're not going to entirely through the originals out the door (before a statement from Nintendo, of course), I'm happy. Thanks so much for your time and consideration. P.S. Good points on pregnancies... we know nothing about them, or if they even exist! For that matter... couldn't a couple have nine babies in the space of nine months because of the stork system? Anyway, I'm off topic. Oh, and just for the record, I'm really glad you specified by what you meant with emphasis. I'm totally with you now... but still enormously confused about the relationships between DS remakes! ;D  Look forward to working on articles with you soon! And this is for all the administrators: thanks so much for running the Wiki! --Stumpers


 * Lights a match, blows some dust away* Is anyone still reading this? I was just wondering, if Banjo and Conker were kicked out of the wiki because they were retconned, why not other retconned information like Mario being Brooklyite or Luigi's age? - Hyper Mushroom

Banjo-Conker-Free!
Take Banjo and Conker off the importance policy! Max2
 * Will-do. 17:06, 1 March 2007 (EST)

Question
Of what level of importance are Mario is Missing!, Wario's Woods, Luigi's Mansion, Super Princess Peach, Dr. Mario, Dr. Mario 64, and Vs. Dr. Mario? Waluigi 23:34, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
 * All of that is primary. Peach, Mario, and/or Luigi in a game always means primary importance; Toad in Wario's Woods makes that ok; all games with the word "Mario" in the title is worth mentioning here. 23:36, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Mario is Missing! is considered low-canon, if thats what you meant. 23:39, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Yoshipedia
Wait a minute. Somebody created a "Yoshipedia", does that mean that Yoshi is off the wiki. A wondering fan of Yoshi
 * No, since that wiki is not associated with this wiki. -- 21:04, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
 * I'm a bit worried about the Yoshipedia. Yoshi's so related to Mario... 21:45, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Banjo and Conker series notability
Neither are spin-offs, despite debuting/cameoing in Diddy King Racing for marketing-purposes. Even if they are to be considered spin-off series, would a spin-off (Banjo and Conker series) of a spin-off (Diddy Kong Racing) of a spin-off (Donkey Kong series) of a main series (Mario series) really be considering notable? Redstar 18:09, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * Just found this: Coverage.
 * Uh, yes. That's on the page you linked before. As I said before, it simply gives instructions on how to handle those examples. I'm just curious on if the series themselves are notable enough for this wiki, considering their multiple spin-off status. I'd say either relocate all relevant information to the List of Cameos, or delete the series articles and keep the relevant characters, since they're the ones we're after, not their series. Redstar 18:23, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * Actually, if we are going to get technical, Mario is a spin-off of Donkey Kong. The Banjo and Conker series are more relevant in this mindframe, and the Banjo games actually make references to the Mario-series, albeit not major, they still connect the series to Donkey Kong, and are major enough to get some more coverage than cameos. Just curious, what's your opinion on the Pyoro-series? 18:36, 18 December 2009 (EST)

Also, "The following regulations are based on previous proposals and consensus reached via voting on talk pages.". Keep that in mind. And just to point htis out: you are not allowed to alter other's comments in any way, and that includes put the ":" thingy by my comment. Just saying, not that I care if you put that there.
 * @SMB: True enough. However, I'd probably be more technical and say that while the Mario series is spun-off from the Donkey Kong series, the current Donkey Kong series is quite different from the original, so was re-created as a spin-off of the Mario series. Very circular. As for the Pyoro series, I'm fine with it. While some would consider the WarioWare series a spin-off of the Wario series, and that series itself spun-off from the Mario series, I'd disagree and argue that the WarioWare series is the Wario series at this point, and considering Wario has appeared alongside Mario in a main-series, non-recreational spin-off, I'd say that the Wario series is concurrent and largely the same as the Mario series. So, the Pyoro series is only about one-removed, whereas the Banjo and Conker series are three-removed, or an entirely different, non-spin-off series (per my above reason of marketing).


 * @Fawful: Previous proposals can be overturned. I'm not pushing anything now, but I would at least like to discuss it so I can be aware of all the reasons behind this current standard. I also apologize for adding the formatting. I'm just compulsive and sometimes do it without thinking, and if it's not formatted I have difficulty following a discussion. Redstar 18:45, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * If I recall correctly, the current standard (Banjo and Conker getting series pages only) is a compromise erected to stop the "Include/Exclude Banjo and Conker" proposal wars. Every few months, it would flare up again and give everyone headaches, and so we finally decided on this. Both sides have valid arguments and everyone has different opinions on what is a spin-off of what, not to mention personal biases for or against the inclusion of Banjo and Conker, all of which is why the issue is so problematic. If you want more info, dig through the proposal archives and see the old discussions for yourself. - 22:57, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * If it's been done to death, I have no reason to press it again. The current standard works for me if it's a compromise. Redstar 23:01, 18 December 2009 (EST)
 * What I don't like about this compromise is that it ignores the standards set by the coverage policy itself (I know it is an amendment, but still, it is only half coverage). We should completely cover the subject or not at all (I would personally support Banjo and Conker articles on this wiki, a lot of the earlier controversey could have been sparked from the Conker-series shifting into a M+ rated series; yet the wiki community has established on many occasions that we will not filter adult content out if it is related). I feel Banjo and Conker are not crossovers, since it is their first appearance in gaming, and the whole debate was not if they are important enough, but rather if Diddy Kong Racing DS erases Banjo and Conker's appearances in the Donkey Kong series. That is where the true issue lies. 23:48, 18 December 2009 (EST)

Just because Diddy Kong Racing was remade doesn't mean the original didn't happen: we view all appearances as equally tangible, true events in the history of the Mario series and make no judgement calls as to which titles depict the "true" series of events. That flawed aspect of this debate should not be considered at all when we try to come up with any sort of decision concerning Banjo and Conker; similarly, people's personal aversion to M-rated games in our wiki should also be ignored, as you pointed out. Unfortunately, that's easier said than done: someone who hates Conker's Bad Fur Day can always say they just want the games excluded because they're too far removed from the Mario games, and we couldn't prove otherwise. If we include the series in their entirety, people are going to be angry, but if we cut them out entirely, different people will be angry - and with good reason. We have to include Banjo and Conker in some way because they originated from a Mario game; to deny that would be folly. However, the people who argue against full inclusion also have some valid points of their own. Since their creation, Banjo and Conker have separated themselves from their parent series as a result of Real World politics: unlike the other sub-series within Mario, Nintendo does not own Banjo and Conker, and so it cannot include them in the crossovers that bind Mario, Yoshi, Donkey Kong and Wario together (namely, the party, sports and kart racing games). They are like estranged cousins, and to many, their information would be out-of-place in our wiki because of this; we cling to Nintendo's approval as a way to weed out unofficial material, and since the series are no longer Nintendo's, that's enough grounds for people to cast them off. But again, denying the existence of the more recent Microsoft Banjo and Conker titles would be wrong because they did happen and they are part of the series, which as I said before, we must cover in some way. We are lucky we were able to come to a compromise in the face of all these unruly factors, and go this long without incident. The coverage was written for this, so the compromise is not ignoring anything, merely forcing us to get creative with our standards in order to avoid constant fighting. We have to include something, but we will never be able to include everything: even if by some miracle full coverage of Banjo and Conker is approved by the community and stays that way, who will write the articles? We already struggle to fill the Donkey Kong pages, imagine how it'll look if we add countless Banjo and Conker stubs to that number. Instead of pushing against a wall, we'd be wiser to put our energy towards fleshing out the Banjo and Conker series pages, so we can be proud of what we did manage to accomplish. With our open-minded coverage policies, maybe we can even include basic series pages for the SSB series, instead of redirecting people to specific characters and categories. I'd rather see that than the circular Proposal Wars again, that's for sure. - 00:36, 19 December 2009 (EST)
 * I see your points (that sia,d the points of other users in the past). But (not to create an argument, just a suggestion) couldn't we make regular articles for those games, characters, and enemies that are from the Nintendo era of Banjo and Conker (which is most of the games in those series, to be honest), and then add the ones from the Microsoft era into the series pages (and link the ones that get pages with main templates)? Not necesarily saying we should do that soon, but it is a possible change that is yet another compromise while marking the relations of Banjo and Conker to Mario and Nintendo. 00:47, 19 December 2009 (EST)
 * No, that would be incredibly inconsistent. Originally we didn't cover the Microsoft titles at all, until we realized that writing about half a series is pointless: it's all-or-nothing - surely you can appreciate that. People coming here to read about Banjo and Conker won't care that they were sold to Microsoft, all they'll care about is that we ignore the recent games, and decide to find a more complete source of information. These people - who want full coverage - will therefore not agree to the compromise, and neither will the people who want no coverage because it still results in the wiki getting covered in Banjo and Conker pages. Sorry, but these series will not be expanding beyond their current borders anytime soon, so like I said before, focus your attention on what space you have been given and make the most of it. - 01:12, 19 December 2009 (EST)

DK Wiki
You know that the Donkey Kong wiki from Wikia has joined the NIWA? So should we lesson the coverage on Donkey Kong or would we have two DK wikis? What are we going to do about that new wiki? SeanWheeler 23:03, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * We know about them, we are an active member of NIWA ourselves. And no, coverage should not lessen, coverage should not change, coverage should remain the same. What are we going to do? Maybe we should send them a welcome basket with some fruit, but we should not bother them
 * Then, how would we differentiate our Donkey Kong content from them? SeanWheeler 02:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't. We will keep on covering Donkey Kong, and such, but DK Wiki has the advantage of being more focused. If we cover things like Young Link, then I don't see anything too wrong with covering Donkey Kong. SMW has a very wide coverage, unlike most wikis which are more focused. Manga Maniac 12:16, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Game & Watch
This wiki has a lot of stuff about Game & Watch, but Game & Watch didn't appear in ANY of Mario games (except SSBB as trophy), so why is it there? Shouldn't it be abandoned from Mario Wiki forever?
 * We cover the Game & Watch games because they appear as mini-games in the Game & Watch Gallery series - generally with Modern modes featuring Mario characters, making those G&WG games part of the Mario series (which really should be discussed on this page, now that you mention it). Not discussing the original forms of the G&W titles as well as their ports would be a serious omission. - 20:01, 20 January 2011 (EST)

Banjo and Conker
I would say to remove their series from our coverage, but you can keep their articles. They are no longer Nintendo characters, so they're no longer Mario characters either. We only cover Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Wario and Smash Bros. because Yoshi, Wario and Donkey Kong are recurring Mario characters, while Smash Bros. takes content from all of the four series I listed.

Remove mention of Pyoro from MarioWiki:Coverage
I am seriously perplexed by why Pyoro is mentioned here. Yes, he has quite a few games, but almost all the games appeared in a WarioWare game, meaning that it's not a sub-series. And the only game that was stand-alone was a remake of the first two Pyoro games, and there was only one so it can't count as sub-series. So I ask; Why is Pyoro placed here as if it were a sub-series?

Proposer: Deadline: May 21, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Remove

 * 1) Per proposal
 * 2) Per Reversinator's comment.
 * 3) Per proposal
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) as long as the article about Pyro's game stays than ok
 * 6) Per Goomba's Shoe15
 * 7) I never really considered Pyoro to be a separate series. It seems to me to be more of a "series" within the WarioWare games.
 * 8) It's a spinoff of a spinoff of a spinoff of a spinoff of the Mario series. Per all.
 * 9) Per Magikrazy51
 * 10) Per LGM.
 * 11) Per all.
 * 12) Per all and I like it removed!

Comments
@Mario4Ever: This is not what I mean. I just want to remove mention of Pyoro from this article, since it's treating it as a sub-series, which it's not. Keep everything else, but remove the Pyoro image. --Reversinator 17:23, 7 May 2011 (EDT)
 * I would consider that a Spin off since it uses an estalished character from the wario ware series


 * Yes, it's a spin-off, but not a sub-series. It is part of the Wario series, so we don't need to mention Pyoro here. --Reversinator 18:31, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

spin off would indeed be part of the series since it's based off a character from an original game


 * Spin-off and sub-series are two different things. Look them up, then reply. And indent. --Reversinator 21:33, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

Yeah there the same thing according to what ive read in fact if you look up Sub-series on Wikipedia it takes you to spin off
 * Ok, they have similar meaning, but a spin-off is a single game, while a sub-series is a line of games.



Name
Wait a minute, the thing always said nowadays wass wrong at all! or if I didn't see it, show where it is. There is no rule like "This is a New Wrold wiki that articles only use the Nort American name, just mansion the European one in one little paranthesis." There may be no Cannon but that doesn't explains why we giving the name of his species to Kamek when it comes to Mario Party 9 and why we suddenly started calling: Mario Strikers Charged Football as Mario Strikers Charged. The order used should be like:

1)If thw diffrent names refer to diffrent things, the proper and realistic version must be used in the artical, just like calling Magikoopa as Kamek in Mario Party 9 as he IS kamek, not an ordinary magikoopa

2)If that doesn't determine it -if both names refer to the same thing- like Melody Motorway & Music Park or Mario Strikers Charged & Mario Strikers Charged Football, than the region where it released FIRST should be used.

3)If the words differ in American English and British English; like Flipsede First Floor and Flipside Ground Floor, the commonly used one should be written like what people use more ofen when describing the Ground Floor since this is an English Wiki that should use proper english game... Sincerely: -- 01:44, 25 August 2012 (EDT)


 * The Naming Policy states that North American names take precedence, since most readers, eitors and search engine users are North American, so using those names is most convenient for the largest number of people, and funnels more search engine/Google traffic our way, which we need to pay the bills. The reasoning is explained here (and for good measure, I explained it here too). The wiki's founder, Porplemontage, was the one who decided we will be using North American names (see here). This policy is non-negotiable. - 19:48, 25 August 2012 (EDT)

Regarding current policy
Given the recent changes to this policy, pages like Nintendo Village, Kawaii Ouchi, and possibly others I'm unaware of need to be deleted or merged into other articles (SSX On Tour and Birdo/Captain Rainbow respectively), correct? These articles deal with what are now considered "guest appearances" and thus only qualify for a single article. I assume this can be done without a proposal, but I thought I'd ask first in case a proposal is needed/someone already planned to do this and just hasn't yet. -- 1337star (Mailbox SP) 23:36, 14 December 2012 (EST)
 * Yeah, we don't want to lose any good info, so merge them. - 01:06, 15 December 2012 (EST)

Outdated
Some of the information in this policy is out-of-date. The current position of the Wiki is to have separate articles for each individual Subspace Army species as per this proposal. Sorry, I just noticed this minor detail when I was reading through the article. GBAToad (talk) 05:43, 30 April 2013 (EDT)


 * Good catch. Given how there's a pending proposal about the SSBM enemies too, and seeing as most of the stuff in the overall "Organization of the Wiki" section was already covered in the first half of the page anyway, the admins agreed that it'd be better to just get rid of the entire section. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. - 23:20, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

Sonic related Dream Event locations
I'm reading through the coverage concerning Crossovers and I happen across this line: Therefore, all these crossovers are given full coverage: everything appearing in the games gets articles. I have a question about the Sonic related Dream Event locations: do they count in this situation? Should we create articles for the places like Radical Highway or Seaside Hill?
 * Yes they should. These are similar to stages in the Super Smash Bros. series: Mario characters interact in it unlike the Nintendo Land attractions where there is no interaction in them at all. I'd say we add them. 19:59, 1 June 2013 (EDT)
 * Is a proposal necessary or should we just start creating them?
 * Don't think so 19:35, 2 June 2013 (EDT)
 * Yeah, just make them. You only need proposals for things that aren't clearly covered by the policy already, like new "guest appearance" games, as that's a murky area and could be disputed. - 20:05, 2 June 2013 (EDT)

Yoshi's Island in Sonic Lost World
So what do we do about Mario-themed DLC levels in other games? For example, with Yoshi's Island in Sonic Lost World. While I don't think we would cover Sonic Lost World as a whole as it is part of Sonic the Hedgehog's main series and had no relation to Mario until this DLC was released, I still think this level should since it has Yoshi written all over it. It has Shy Guys and Piranha Plants. And the rings are changed to Yoshi coins. Should we have an article for this level? And should our Sonic the Hedgehog page mention it? Well, not his role in the main story (duh! You would go to a Sonic site for that) but him going to Yoshi's Island? SeanWheeler (talk) 23:53, 19 December 2013 (EST)


 * Or just add a Sonic Lost World section to Yoshi's Island? SeanWheeler (talk) 23:57, 19 December 2013 (EST)

The definition of "crossover"
"Crossovers are games that feature characters from two or more franchises."

Uhm, no, that extremely vague definition would confuse people between guest appearances and true crossovers. I like how the "guest appearance" section does a better job at defining the words. I suggest incorporating information from that section and improving this definition.

How about something like this: "Crossovers are games with an extensive amount of franchise-related content, ranging from mostly Mario such as in Game & Watch Gallery games to an equal split as in Mario & Sonic, to simply being one of many franchises represented in an extensive crossover such as Super Smash Bros.. 15:31, 7 November 2014 (EST)

Concerning Donkey Kong Wiki
There seem to be contradictory ideas for how much Donkey Kong content should be covered since this wiki joined NIWA: I see MarioWiki talk:Coverage says that Mario Wiki should not reduce content at all, while DKWiki seems to express the opposite idea of deleting and moving all Donkey Kong content which is not directly related to Mario. Obviously, this kind of inconsistency should not exist, and I would like to express the idea that perhaps you should consider moving all of your Donkey Kong content which is not mario-related to Donkey Kong Wiki, like MarioWiki:DKWiki suggests. Here's why: much of the Donkey Kong content on this wiki overshadows the content on Donkey Kong Wiki to the point where it discourages editors from joining our wiki in favor of going to this wiki for "all the same articles that Donkey Kong Wiki has, except even better." (Quote taken from here). We're basically having to compete with a larger and older wiki which covers much of the content we are still working on in great depth. This hurts our wiki, and I wish we could arrive to a split between the Donkey Kong and Mario universes, since we're part of the same organization (NIWA). I know, we theoretically should have an advantage on coverage, since we have a smaller scope, but that advantage goes out the window when all of the editors are going to your wiki, and you already cover much of our content the point where we are competing with you. In conclusion, I would like to arrive at a compromise between our wikis, but if that is not possible, I would at the very least like for the inconsistency to be removed. --The   Retro   Gamer  08:31, 27 June 2015 (EDT)


 * The inconsistency has been removed (it was referring to the pre-NIWA DKWiki, a project which was later scrapped). DKWiki knew from the start that we would not be changing our coverage and that if they had an issue with that then they shouldn't join. -- 08:48, 27 June 2015 (EDT)


 * And we cover Super Smash Bros. fully even with Smash Wiki joining NIWA. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:25, 28 June 2015 (EDT)

Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and Mario Sports Mix are not crossovers
Mario Hoops 3-on-3 features Final Fantasy content comparable to the Mario content in NBA Street V3. It is more appropriate to call the Final Fantasy characters guest characters at this point. Mario Sports Mix features a bit more Final Fantasy content beyond the usual playable characters, but I don't think it's quite enough to deem it as a crossover. Finally, the title, the default roster, and the proportion of content all suggest that the two games are a far cry from a crossover, so I think they should be removed alongside Mario & Sonic, Super Smash Bros., and Fortune Street. Otherwise, keeping these two games listed would mean a case for Mario Kart 8, obviously not a crossover, to be listed. Coverage on these two games won't be any different; these two games should just be treated as simply Mario series games. Meanwhile, information on non-Mario guest characters should be elaborated under "guest appearances". 21:15, 7 August 2015 (EDT)


 * I disagree: a quarter (MH:3o3, 5/21) or third (MSM, 6/19) of the playable characters being from a different series doesn't seem small enough for a "guest appearance" (by contrast, NBA Street V3 is 3/19). Right now, the difference between crossover and mainstream games is fairly intuitive, I think, and seeing as being a crossover doesn't lessen/limit a game's coverage at all anyway, I think it'd be better to leave it as it is - i.e. better safe than sorry when it comes to substantial amounts of canon foreigners. It'd be unreasonable for someone to say that optional DLC/Amiibo stuff is enough to make an otherwise 100% Mario game a crossover, although I think it would be worth saying somewhere on the page that crossovers should be judged based on the native/built-in/whatever features of a game. - 22:30, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
 * That a quarter or a third of the roster is from the Final Fantasy series sounds like a significant number, but the problem is that they're all locked (and in Mario Sports Mix, the roster is small, so six characters seems like a lot because it's relative) and they don't have any stages or soundtracks that belong from their parent series, at least not by default. In Mario Sports Mix, there is a Chocobo theme minigame as well, but that's still not enough. It's readily apparent that the other games are crossovers at a first glance, but not Mario Hoops-3-on-3 or Mario Sports Mix. My biggest issue is the lack of nonMario content aside from playable characters that is supposed to deem Mario Hoops 3-on-3 or Mario Sports Mix a crossover. This also includes their titles, which don't scream "crossover" to me at all.


 * As for coverage, I clearly said that removing it from the "list of crossovers" will not affect how it's covered. I'm expressing my concern that it's categorized in the same scope as Mario & Sonic, Super Smash Bros., Fortune Street and even Wario Blast: Featuring Bomberman! when I really think it shouldn't be. 23:06, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
 * Besides, it's not not even advertised as a crossover at all; at least all other crossover games listed, like say, Mario & Sonic, showcase that it is indeed a crossover, in the box-art, commercials, trailers, etc., and crossovers typically balance their content a far bigger deal than Sports Mix/Hoops done. Most of the Square Enix content comes in later in the game. The last character you fight in tournaments are Final Fantasy characters, as well as the final boss, whom you unlock when you beat all other game modes first. And if that's not enough, Mario Kart Arcade GP, by this logic, could be considered a crossover between Mario and Namco franchises, when it's really not the case there. 23:21, 7 August 2015 (EDT)
 * Actually the Mario Kart Aracade GP games are listed as crossovers, but I like to highly dispute that categorization too, although it appears to me that it operates on a different definition of "crossover" since it includes Skylanders: SuperChargers and Captain Rainbow as well. 23:29, 7 August 2015 (EDT)

It'd do more harm than good to organization and reader comprehension, etc. by making "crossover" a very specific term and start kicking out games because they don't have "enough" central content originating outside Mario. Wikipedia's definition is very broad, but at least for us, it makes sense to separate Guest Appearances and Cameos by Mario subjects in other series/games for the sake of preventing coverage creep. But when it comes to games that get full coverage either way, "crossover" being used for anything with playable characters from multiple series, ranging from the mostly-non-Mario ensembles of SSB to mostly-Mario titles like MH3o3, MSM and MKAGP, is a simple and efficient approach to classification (etc.). Why needlessly complicate things by making different "scopes" of crossover when just one nice, well-known term covers everything? As for Category:Crossover Games, it does seem to be using a broader definition of the term than we do when determining coverage - which, frankly, I'm fine with, because sometimes wiki jargon is one thing and mainspace terms are another, but I could understand if folks want a "Guest Appearance Games" subcategory or whatever for the games without full coverage. - 14:25, 8 August 2015 (EDT)


 * One interesting question I have is this: what is Super Mario Maker's status now, regarding Costume Mario? I figured that it falls within the same scope as Mario Hoops 3-on-3 when it comes to playable guest characters. 18:09, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I think it's simpler to label the costumes as cameos. Hoops is a crossover for having unique characters and other elements, but the costumes in SMM are nothing more than palette swaps that can only appear in one of the four possible themes.
 * Yeah, per Time Turner. - 18:22, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
 * I think they fall into a gray zone between "guest" and "cameo" since one can argue that it's a guest appearance as well, due to the sheer amount of unlocks tied to these costumes, and they still play a larger role than a typical cameo by simply being playable. 18:27, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
 * If playing as different characters changed the playing experience, I'd agree with calling them Guest Appearances (like if you could stab Goombas with Link's sword, etc.), but they're nothing more than aesthetics, and the game would be exactly the same with or without them, which means Cameos. - 18:40, 26 September 2015 (EDT)
 * Yeah, good points you make. It fits pretty well, now that I think about it. 18:47, 26 September 2015 (EDT)

Borders expanding too far
Am I the only one who thinks that the coverage of this wiki has grown way out of proportion? We have articles about tons of Pokemon, tons of Smash fighters with little relation to Mario, TONS of MOVES for these Smash fights which have even less to do with Mario, tons of assist trophies with little relation to Mario, tons of stages with little relation to Mario, StreetPass Plaza, the friggin' badge arcade, and the BUNNY WHO RUNS THEM. At what point does this stop? I honestly don't think "appears next to Mario in a game featuring tons of characters" is enough to justify an entire article on a wiki devoted to the Mario series.

Let's look at the Robin page and examine it for a moment.
 * Wiki links related to Mario: Two (Super Mario Maker and Bowser Jr., and the second one is dubious; see below)
 * Main body paragraph with tons of links to another wiki
 * Gallery of trophy images, none of which feature Mario content
 * Full script of Palutena's guidance, which is from another series entirely, and STILL has nothing to do with Mario.
 * Alternate language names for a character who has nothing to do with Mario, taking up a big table.
 * Three "trivia" entries that stray even further from the Mario series, talking about Final Fantasy and Smash trophies.

What kind of "Mario knowledge" is to be gained from this page? I won't even bring up StreetPass Mii Plaza, Nintendo Badge Arcade, Arcade Bunny or the multitude of Game & Watch pages, which are just ridiculous in my opinion. So I ask you this: How much is too much?

Thank you. Shadow2 (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2016 (EST)


 * We give full coverage to crossovers, including SSB, hence we have pages and content for everything that appears in those games - but only covering what they do in those games, with the external links being provided for readers who then want to learn more about what they did in their parent series. It's not coverage creep: it's always been part of this wiki's scope to cover SSB in full, and it's not negotiable. As for those other subjects, I'd agree that StreetPass Mii Plaza requires trimming down to only be about the Mario content, like how we only have articles for the Mario games in Nintendo Land, and how we keep other partial coverage subject matter short and focused. For the Nintendo Badge Arcade, everything the article currently goes over is applicable to the Mario content within it, and so, is necessary to understand the nature of the appearance and the role Mario plays in it. The Arcade Bunny offers a lot of direct commentary on things like all the recent Ashley badges, so a small page on him isn't the end of the world. The only Game & Watch game articles we have are things that featured Mario from the start and/or were given Mario-series remakes as part of the Game & Watch Gallery games, so they're well within our coverage. - 21:35, 20 February 2016 (EST)
 * I'm sorry, but is "not negotiable" a way to say I should quell my rebellious nature before I get punished? Shadow2 (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2016 (EST)
 * If you provide a good argument to change our stance (like, a really really good once, since that's how we operated for years), sure, we may consider it. However none of your arguments are good enough so far so yes we'll punish you 16:05, 21 February 2016 (EST)
 * There have been many failed attempts to lessen our coverage of SSB information over the years. I also can't see the founder ever okaying it even if the community somehow decided it'd be a good thing to scrap hundreds of articles and thousands of images: lots of content is a good thing for us. It's not going to happen and agitating for it is just a waste of time and energy. - 16:33, 21 February 2016 (EST)

Coverage of Certain Game Series
In general, I find myself wondering why we cover games in the Super Smash Bros. (series) and most games in the Donkey Kong (series) as main articles rather than something that should be treated as something for List of Mario references in video games or have an article called List of Mario cameo appearances in video games. Two reasons I feel this way: One is Donkey Kong Wiki and SmashWiki (dedicated coverage). Two is that these aren't Mario series games. However, they do need to be covered, but not major coverage like we currently do. Here is how I visualize we should be covering Mario content: This is not a discussion if we should commit to these changes but rather engage how people feel about this. As far as I am concerned, we are very far away from even doing such a thing at this time so I would like to gauge a reaction first. -- 00:34, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Wario, Yoshi, Toads, enemies, or other characters in how they appear in the game
 * Plot character - This undoubtingly means a Mario game they are in - full coverage (needs coverage in about as many aspects as possible)
 * Super Mario World
 * Luigi's Mansion
 * Super Princess Peach
 * Wario Land II
 * Crossover - Major appearance but not quite a Mario game - partial coverage (exclude non-Mario things)
 * Super Smash Bros. Brawl
 * Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games
 * NBA Street V3
 * Captain Rainbow
 * Reference - Minor appearance - "Worth a mention" (exclude the entire game except for that one part about Mario stuff)
 * Pokémon Yellow referencing Mario & Wario
 * Metal Gear Solid having figurines of Mario and Yoshi.
 * F-Zero X using Rainbow Road as a track design.
 * Crashmo using blocks to represent enemies found in Super Mario Bros.
 * But crossovers already get partial coverage: after all, we're not launching into every Smash character's full backstory nor anything that happens outside of the Smash series nor do we go into as much detail into the technical aspect as the SmashWiki. I'm partially saying that to be facetious, but overhauling the wiki's entire coverage system is both unlikely and unappealing. Beyond that, how come Donkey Kong isn't a part of the Mario franchise? The entire cast has appeared in plenty of games, the Donkey Kong arcade game was the launchpad for both Mario and Donkey Kong, the core mechanics of the DK platformers are certainly comparable to the Mario platformers... 00:49, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * That is why I am keeping this as a thought experiment rather than something to be considered or implemented. As for Donkey Kong, keyword I used is most. Games like Donkey Kong (arcade) and Donkey Kong (Game Boy) I agree should be covered. Games like from the Donkey Kong Country (series), I don't feel comfortable covering the way we currently do (unless it falls in references). -- 00:56, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * So what's your opinion on the Wario and Yoshi series? Should the wiki fully cover them? 00:59, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * I have thought about that too. The WarioWare (series) is wildly different than a Mario (franchise) game. Yoshi, maybe it's own dedicated wiki would be OK but then we have a title like Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island that introduces some issues and then we have spin-offs, such as Yoshi's Safari and Yoshi's Cookie. Ultimately, I came up with the clearest definition on how we decide what gets covered: Does the thing we are covering have residence in the Mushroom Kingdom? Does that argument have any holes or inconsistencies? Try to come up with some examples, if there are any. -- 01:05, 29 September 2016 (EDT)

I see something of what you mean. Necky is almost completely identical to the Donkey Kong Wiki. But due to the original Donkey Kong Game (where the two characters split ways, or at least the series), would be lonely without the other games in the series if all but the ones with Mario were removed. This means that coverage of it would mean to be more than a simple mention. Characters needs to be added to the games. As for Super Smash Bros., the only reason why it has coverage is because it has Mario characters in it. They play a pretty big part in the series. The other characters (for without them, there will be red links or links to other websites) are added as well. I more for keeping it the same as it is (basically).

Game & Watch Gallery
Based on the recent proposal to lessen our coverage of non-Mario content from the Game & Watch Gallery games, can it be moved to guest appearances, or would we need a separate proposal for that? -- 20:22, June 8, 2019 (EDT)


 * Just re-realised the page's classification of the Game & Watch Gallery series as a crossover: "everything appearing in the games gets articles," which yeah, doesn't really work with this series due to the inclusion of Game & Watch titles. While I do think the series is considered a crossover (Mario characters are on the boxart and everything), the thing that gets in the way here is said inclusion of G&W games, so I think a statement in regards to that should be made on the page instead of moving it to "guest appearances". Since there are still the two pages existing (Flagman and Lion), I can start a proposal on the amendment soon that would take care of all of that in one go (and by "soon" hopefully I actually mean it). 05:51, November 28, 2019 (EST)

Amend policy on "full" coverage of the Game & Watch Gallery series
As I touched on in my above post, policy's classification of the Game & Watch Gallery series as a crossover, while correct, means giving it full coverage. However, the problem with this is that the series features non-Mario, original content from the other series (Game & Watch) merely as bonus content (i.e. it doesn't contribute to the game's central "crossover" aspect) in the form of ported G&W games (including the unlockables in Game & Watch Gallery 3); this is when it kind of slips out of our scope. If a Mario & Sonic game featured a demo of Sonic 1 as an extra feature, it wouldn't make sense to cover it because it never had anything to do with the Mario series before and isn't directly associated with Mario in the game at all (as opposed to, say, a Green Hill Zone stage, where the main game can take place and characters from both series make an appearance). Because of this, the policy should be amended accordingly with a Game & Watch Gallery series section:

In addition to the Modern, Mario-themed versions of Game & Watch games, the Game & Watch Gallery series features a number of ported Game & Watch games as extra content. Due to these not being directly part of the central crossover nature of the game and having no in-game association with the Mario franchise, those that have not received Modern remakes or are not a Mario-series Game & Watch game to begin with (e.g. Mario's Cement Factory) are not covered, otherwise the series is given full coverage.

If this passes, Flagman and Lion will be deleted. If not, then that means the G&WG series gets complete coverage, meaning all of the previously deleted G&W articles determined by this proposal will be restored due to their appearances as Museum minigames / "un-Modern-ised" games.

Proposer: Deadline: December 13, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per my above post and proposal.

Comments
What about Greenhouse? LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:33, November 29, 2019 (EST)


 * Greenhouse has a Modern version. 06:49, November 29, 2019 (EST)