Talk:Cheep Chomp

I don't think this is called a Cheep-Chomp. It probably is a Big Bertha (fish) or a Boss Bass. It does have one tooth and some shoot Baby Cheeps just like the two other big fish. The only difference is the color. I think this is too similiar to be a separate specie. I'll leave it for now until someone finds an official name.--Spike


 * I believe this is the official name (and as such is a seperate enemy). If someone has the Player's Guide it would be very helpful (as all the enemies in the game are listed in it). -- Son of Suns


 * Huh, yeah you are right. According to this site it is named "Cheep-Chomp".Spike[[Image:Spike_sheild_badge.PNG]]

If these are Cheep-Chomps, then what are the aquatic Chomps that bite you for one damage when you fall in the water in Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door?


 * Nibbles. --

It says in the article they appear in new Super Mario bros Wii.I can't find them anywhere in New Super Mario Bros Wii.--Swooper888 20:38, 25 December 2009 (EST)

Never mind I found them--Swooper888 00:08, 26 December 2009 (EST)

smaller ones
I remember encountering smaller versions of Cheep-Chomps? What game are they in and what are they called?

Question
If Cheep Chomp is a Cheep Cheep, what is that small purple Cheep Cheep? A PORCUPUFFER? --WhiteYoshi2014 (talk) 20:43, 1 July 2014 (EDT) "Yoshi Ranger strikes again! Remember kids, only you can prevent burnt Marios."

Cheep Chomp = Bubba?
So, as I was searching the Internet for any Japanese names of the enemies that didn't have theirs mentioned here yet, I came across this interesting discovery: Cheep Chomp and Bubba have the same Japanese name, バクバク (bakubaku) which is onomatopoeia for chomping. It appears that "Bubba" was only a localisation of some kind for Cheep Chomp, which has since Super Mario 64 gone through design changes. The behavior of these two is also similar.

What should be done with this? Merge the two pages or keep them separate with the mention of the possible connection? I mean, I'm not making the proposal yet, still deciding on that. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 05:43, 14 October 2014 (EDT)


 * I'd seek a merge since they also practically have the same function/main attack, but a proposal would be best since concensus might instead be that they don't look similar enough (although this isn't as big a difference as some others). LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:01, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

There's something else I forgot to mention: There's also a boss going by a similar name. That boss's English name? Bessie Bass.

So now it's not just "Cheep Chomp = Bubba?", it's "Boss Bass and Big Bertha = Cheep Chomp = Bubba?" That won't be easy to swallow if I make the proposal. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 06:11, 17 October 2014 (EDT)
 * According to Japanese Wikipedia, Boss Bass and Big Bertha are "Kyodai Pukupuku" or "Giant Pukupuku" (巨大プクプク), while Bessie Bass is "Big Bakubaku" (ビッグバクバク) - and it also describes Bakubaku as both Bubba and Cheep Chomp, as well as the version of Boss Bass from Yoshi's Island DS. So from this, it seems like Kyodai Pukupuku was its original name, and then it was changed to Bakubaku at some point. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:38, 21 October 2014 (EDT)
 * Also, the Bub enemy from Super Mario 64 is indeed a Cheep Cheep like in the Japanese version and their appearance in Mario Party 3, which further explains why their designs were "replaced" in Super Mario 64 DS. At the very least, I think that deserves a merge considering they were called Cheep Cheeps in the English version of the latter game. (I've also checked in this extensive Mario series dictionary, and it reaches the same conclusion as the above.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:30, 21 October 2014 (EDT)

Merge Big Bertha, Boss Bass, and Bubba with Cheep Chomp
FAILED 4-10

That's quite a mouthful, isn't it? Well, it just so transpired that all these enemy characters (more or less) went under the same name in Japan, they're all hungry fish of similar shape and size, and the former three have been dropped out of recent games in favor of the latter. Cheep Chomp is like a unifier of older designs to begin with, so barring some attachment to the original localized names, this makes sense. Speaking of which...

"They lose their identity if this happens!"

This is already the case with Big Bertha and Boss Bass's designs being so similar in the first place, as well as Bubba being 'replaced' with a Big Bertha acting more like a Boss Bass in Super Mario 64 DS. For simplicity's sake, placing them all under the same moniker as intended eliminates unnecessary confusion.

"But Big Bertha and Boss Bass are different genders!"

I don't think those names are an absolute to go by, and even then, the difference has mainly been extrapolated over their appearance together in one game. The behavior associated with them in Super Mario Bros. 3 alone is used to try to ascertain unverified (or possible) appearances. "Cheep Chomp" is more inclusive.

"Bubba looks different enough!"

See Bub.

Proposer: Deadline: January 22, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Despite the fact that Big Bertha and Boss Bass appeared in the same game, I know that you are referring to the one in Super Mario 64 DS. I believe that it should be merged, because the less pages we have of the same thing, the more convenient it is for the viewers.
 * 3) Same Japanese name and we already merged Bub with Cheep Cheep.
 * 4) Per all. Bessie Bass, which has the appearance of Boss Bass / Big Bertha, is identified as a Cheep Chomp in Japan. Bubba may look radically different from the others, but is still a Cheep Chomp in Japan. It may be the biggest example of an enemy going through a redesign that makes it look almost unrecognizable.

Oppose

 * 1) Big Bertha houses the Baby Cheeps (SM64DS nonwithstanding), which is a behavior limited solely to that species. I'm uncertain about the other two, but I think that alone is enough for, at least, Big Bertha to be separate.
 * 2) Big Bertha and Boss Bass are explicitly stated to be the males and females of there species which warrants a seperate page, act differently in their games. Secondly, I opposed bub and Cheep Cheep, due to lack of resemblance and a diffferent official name. Third, why Cheep Chomp? It acts differently than all of them, being an aggressive persuer and attempting to pull players in while permanently chasing them. Surely thats a different attack pattern, appearence, and name.
 * 3) Cheep-Chomp looks different from the rest of the group. Factor in the significantly varied behaviours of some of these fish and it becomes impossible to support this proposal.
 * 4) What I'm getting here is that we want to merge Big Bertha and Boss Bass cause they're similar in behavior to a Cheep Chomp. Similar behavior doesn't mean they should be merged. I feel that this is being forced upon the Grinder as well as its similarities to an Ukiki are compelling a merge, despite the enemies being different in key ways.
 * 5) Per all. Also, Boss Bass reappeared in Yoshi's Island DS, a few months after the introduction of Cheep Chomp in New Super Mario Bros., which is proof that it wasn't completely "phased out" in favor of Cheep Chomp.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Bubba not only looks different from a big bertha and cheep chomp but he also has a different English name which is stated in two different games which to me signifies that he is not supposed to be the same thing as a big bertha and cheep chomp.
 * 8) Per Tails777. "They act similarly" is not a strong enough reason to merge articles together. They ultimately are different characters, no matter how related.
 * 9) Per all. The oppose votes have simply made a more compelling argument, but I knowledge Walkazo's concerns below.
 * 10) Per all.

Comments

 * Incidentally, in the comments of that Bub proposal, I mentioned I would to limit this to just Big Bertha and Bubba since they occupied the same "slot" in Super Mario 64 (DS), but then we'd have to go with Bubba over Big Bertha since it actually shows up in game text, which would cause disparagy. That's part of the reason I think this route, while more encompassing, leads to less convolution. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:34, 7 January 2015 (EST)
 * I'd agree to subspecies, but merging them is too far. Toad-brigade model CTTT.png Toad   and his brigade! Toadette model CTTT.png 22:41, 7 January 2015 (EST)
 * I considered proposing Big Bertha and Boss Bass keep their articles as sub-species of Cheep Chomp, but that still leaves plenty of guesswork over which is which (not counting where or if Bubba would be factored). This scenario helps clean up those instances where it can be either fish. As for an enemy's general behavior and appearance, that's really whatever's most convenient for the creators (for instance, Micro-Goomba). Big Bertha's and Boss Bass's patterns aren't strictly consistent outside of Super Mario Bros. 3, which seems to be the benchmark because it happens to be their debut as well as the only time they clearly show up together. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:48, 7 January 2015 (EST)
 * Simplicity is second to accurate information on this wiki. And the patterns are consistent outside of SMB3, try Yoshi Island Ds and Super Mario 64 DS.Toad-brigade model CTTT.png Toad   and his brigade! Toadette model CTTT.png 23:56, 7 January 2015 (EST)
 * But it was technically accurate information in the first place - all the resulting article would need to do to be the best that it can is successfully identify places where the enemy is explicitly localized as Big Bertha or Boss Bass. As for Super Mario 64 DS and Yoshi's Island DS, I have tried them, and there are obvious alterations to their attack pattern since their first appearance (albeit more to suit the gameplay than anything else, but it's still muddled as it is). LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:01, 8 January 2015 (EST)

After actually thinking about it, Chocolate Mario, just the color alone does not mean that the four are not the same. Nintendo likely forgot about the color, and instead did a recolor. Another possibility is that they wanted to differentiate it from the Big Cheep Cheep so that players would not become confused and consequently, eaten. In addition, on the page for Big Cheep Cheep that I posted a link to, it says that it is similar to Boss Bass, meaning that there would have been confusion if Boss Bass appeared in, say, New Super Mario Bros. Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2015 (EST)
 * To clarify on the situation a bit more...

The Japanese only used two names for the big man-eating fish (one used for earlier materials, and another used after Super Mario 64); the English localizers initially gave two simultaneous ones to describe the underwater and "flying" variant (Big Bertha and Boss Bass, which were really not unlike the underwater and "flying" Cheep Cheeps in the original game), a third for the early 3D design (Bubba), and a fourth for the later 3D design (Cheep Chomp). In miscellaneous appearances, it appears that whichever name used to identify it is either conjecture or up to the writer's whim rather than for any substantial reason - hence why Boss Bass and Big Bertha are easily confused for each other. Since it seems the intention is that these are all the same creature, the idea of the Cheep Chomp banner is to mitigate the confusion by using the latest name as the species, when speaking about it in general, and also for the newer purple incarnation; however, while Big Bertha, Boss Bass, and Bubba would redirect to the new Cheep Chomp page, the purpose is not to erase all the instances of those names - rather, my idea is for the article to acknowledge this evolution, but when describing specific appearances, it would use those older names in the appropriate sections only if they can be cited with a proper source (otherwise, if the name for that instance is unverified, it uses Cheep Chomp by default). LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2015 (EST)
 * It appears that I need to get brushed up on my Cheep Chomp history. Maybe I should read the article that we're talking about. Thank you for clarifying... again. Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2015 (EST)

@ SuperYoshiBros - But again, though... Boss Bass [reference needed] came back under Bubba's/Cheep Chomp's Japanese name, clearly showing that they were considered the same at that point. That, and it's been almost a decade since Yoshi's Island DS, so I wouldn't exactly call it recent. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2015 (EST)
 * No, Boss Bass actually appeared in Yoshi's Island DS. See? [[File:BigCheepCheep YIDS.png]] And again, it WAS still after Cheep Chomp was introduced, so they were still separate species at least at the time. -- 20:39, 9 January 2015 (EST)
 * Boss Bass* ("or possibly a Big Bertha") has the Japanese name of Bubba and Cheep Chomp in that appearance. Really, this whole situation would be like insisting Cheep Cheep and Cheep-cheep be split, since Cheep-cheep alleged sprout wings when flying out of water according to the original translation, and Cheep Cheep doesn't have that trait so they must be entirely different. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2015 (EST)

There's also the fact that "Cheep Chomp"s are a different colour than the classic fish, but seeing as Cheep Cheep come in purple, yellow and green as well as red, that argument doesn't hold much water either (pardon the pun). - 23:12, 9 January 2015 (EST)
 * However, your argument also has room for rebuttals. Remember The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!? You probably do, seeing as you gave me a link to something similar in the same timeframe. Remember how in the first two episodes, Toad's cap was an inverse of its normal colors? Also, do you remember that back around the creation of Donkey Kong, Mario wore red overalls and a blue shirt (also seen in the aforementioned show)? And how thwomps used to look like blue stones with faces? Your argument is as valid as the one you are trying to shoot down. I rest my case.


 * By the way, the pun was a nice way to end your argument. You should do that more often. Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 13:48, 10 January 2015 (EST)


 * Well, back in the day there were lots of technical limitations which is why sprites on the NES (and rarely, SNES) have different colors than they do today, such as Mario's brown shirt in the original SMB. Super Show came out early in the series and so just went off of these early sprites (which sometimes carried over into artwork as well). Technical limitations is obviously not the case with Boss Bass/Big Bertha, because they retained their orange coloring in future games like All-Stars, Super Mario 64 DS, and Yoshi's Island DS. -- 19:35, 11 January 2015 (EST)


 * If anything, my point was pro-merge, but I'm actually still on the fence. On the one hand colours are often one of the main differences (along with power and location differences) between pairs of RPG enemies and whatnot (some of which even share names, yet get split), but on the other hand, colours are ignored for Koopas, Cheep Cheep, and various other things, even without the "graphical limitations" argument, and in spite of other slight differences and even separate listings in manuals and whatnot in some cases. It's rather messy. - 23:46, 11 January 2015 (EST)

Guess I'll make a little logic rundown before this proposal ends.
 * Bubba = Cheep Chomp: Same official Japanese name.
 * Boss Bass/Big Bertha = Cheep Chomp: Since Bessie Bass, a Boss Bass/Big Bertha appearancewise is a bakubaku, her species in YIDS technically share the same official Japanese name with Cheep Chomps.
 * Boss Bass/Big Bertha = Bubba: The former replaces the latter in the DS remake of SM64. Same role, and also the same official Japanese name, which seemingly replaces "kyoodai pukupuku", the name the former is known as in SMB3 in Japan.
 * Boss Basses in YIDS? This game was developed by a company other than Nintendo, and very likely during the same time as NSMB. Therefore, it is plausible that while Nintendo changed the current design to Cheep Chomp, Artoon didn't follow with this.
 * Enemy behavior? Varies from game to game and depending on how the franchise develops. For example, a regular Paragoomba originally flew and spawned Microgoombas, while a red variant simply hopped towards Mario. Nowadays, the two have been made into a single enemy. Going by Big Bertha's page on this wiki, it's that enemy who appears in SM64DS. If that's true, then its behavior has been changed too.
 * Enemy appearance? They have mostly remained unchanged in the franchise, but there are expections. The biggest one, other than Boss Bass/Big Bertha/Bubba/Cheep Chomp, is Thwomp. It went through quite a many changes until getting its current look, and even that varies. Mostly in 2D games, it's got spikes on its edges. In 3D games, it's instead a frame... thingy.

So really, I believe this is why these pages should be merged. The Japanese names are the original names (usually) and thus I give them priority when considering potential linked enemies. The English names may be different, but in the end, they are just English names. Not really something that should recieve priority over the original Japanese names (expect according to the rules of this wiki). I also don't get these concerns about having a same thing split into different articles because of a different function, even if a link exists. Personal bias, can't understand or yet another wiki policy? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:11, 20 January 2015 (EST)


 * That's the gist of it. In hindsight, perhaps I could have given my opening statement better wording since it looks like a fair share of the opposers didn't seem to fully understand the arguments (one exception I'll deem worthy is the very first opposing point about Baby Cheeps, the main rebuttal of which I can honestly come up with besides slightly deviating traits is the admittedly weak in comparison "can't we just roll with that?"). Really, while this is probably best on a case-by-case basis, it's not like a deeper look at localization inconsistency has not already merged (or sometimes even split) articles in the past. This might've been a tall order since it dealt with more than two articles, but overall, I can't help but be a bit disappointed that this didn't at least end up being a closer call... LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:11, 22 January 2015 (EST)