Talk:Wire Trap

Merge Wire Trap to Spark or Move Wire Spark to Wire Trap
The Spark article currently describes two very different versions of the enemy: the standard one appearing in various titles that orbits around objects, and the faceless one from the Game Boy Donkey Kong and the Game Boy Advance Mario vs. Donkey Kong that exist solely as a periodical hazard on horizontal wires. Meanwhile, the Wire Trap enemy from Super Mario Sunshine travels along similar horizontal wires just like the latter, and shares the name "Spark" in Japanese. Wire Sparks and Wire Traps can safely be grouped in the same article, and we can do this by either completely merging Wire Trap to Spark or by simply moving Spark's Game Boy Donkey Kong and Mario vs. Donkey Kong information over to Wire Trap. If we do the latter, this would fully split the Spark enemy between its platform-based and wire-based types, although the Wire Trap article should probably be renamed to "Sparky (Wire Trap)" or "Sparky (wire)" afterwards since Sparky is the most recent name.

Proposer: Deadline: November 20, 2017, 23:59 (GMT)

Merge Wire Trap to Spark

 * 1) Per proposal. This option is a total merge of Spark's Super Mario Sunshine appearance, taking into account that the English name is a localization alteration; the behavioral and physical differences between platform-based and wire-based Sparks themselves are deemed inconsequential as they are now.
 * 2) One one hand, the wire behavior is quite similar in that that they travel along a surface...
 * 3) Per all.

Move Wire Spark to Wire Trap

 * 1) An alternative to the above. This option acknowledges that while Wire Trap is indeed a Spark, the differences between platform-based and wire-based Sparks in general are too great to share the same article; as a result, the Game Boy Donkey Kong and Mario vs. Donkey Kong appearances will be here.
 * 2) ...but on the other hand, they are fairly different as well, and given the sheer amount of Japanese names (which are all admittedly transliterations of the same word) we have on Spark......
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.

DKJr
According to the Perfect Daijiten, the ones in DKJr are the same enemy as the ones in DK94, but not the same as the SMUSA ones.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:53, 20 December 2017 (EST)
 * This was already touched on here. The "Sparkies" in Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis and Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Mini-Land Mayhem! are designed after the Doki Doki Panic / Super Mario Bros. 2 ones, which would seem to make the intent obvious in a series that makes semi-frequent callbacks to Snapjaw and Nitpicker. The description in Perfect Daijiten even mentions that it's an "American Spark" and also has a separate page containing all the enemies whose names changed between Japan (Doki Doki Panic) and USA (Super Mario Bros. 2), except the latter claim can't be verified right now since Spark (along with Tweeter and Flurry) aren't listed in the Doki Doki Panic manual. Coupled with the Super Mario Collection guide using the usual spelling, and it is splitting hairs again. At any rate, the result of the above proposal means Spark's change is currently recognized based on platform and wire versions, not the name it happens to have (which there are many). LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:58, 21 December 2017 (EST)
 * Huh, I had thought that the DKjr ones went on those climbable poles, must have been misremembering Snapjaw instead. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2017 (EST)
 * Checked, and yes they do travel along wires. The orange ones on those zigzagged wires, and the blue ones on the disconnected ones. Not exclusively, but it seems that there was an intended connection between them and the DK94 ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:55, 17 February 2018 (EST)
 * Wires are thin, horizontal ropes that first appeared in the Game Boy game, and the player is only be able to hang from them. There are none on Stage 3. Daijiten specifies this difference in its description. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:47, 16 March 2018 (EDT)

Split Sparky (Donkey Kong) from Wire Trap
The above proposal went with the decision to merge the (Mario vs.) Donkey Kong Sparky with the Super Mario Sunshine Wire Trap, but looking back, I believe there is ample reason to split further. While the name "Wire Trap" implies that they are objects that travel on wires, they are actually on ropes, which are thicker. Sparkies are electrical balls that generate from one side of the wire itself, move to the next, and disappear. Wire Traps, on the other hand, have a shell-like form, and while the red ones similarly exit and enter funnel-shaped objects at the ends of their rope, the blue ones bounce back and forth. Sparkies are fairly different from Sparks, which mostly circle around platforms, but they are still different enough from Wire Traps that sharing the same article also seems a bit forced in retrospect. Splitting will affect the wire and rope articles, as the Super Mario Sunshine ropes are currently considered wires.

Proposer: Deadline: December 21, 2018, 23:59 (GMT)

Support

 * 1) Pro perposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) As per Doc von Schmeltwick's comments most Wire Traps do disappear when they reach the other end of the rope, and the Sparks from Donkey Kong GB do have a physical form, leaving the fact that Wire Traps  travel on ropes instead of wires, which in my opinion is not personally enough to warrant a spit.
 * 2) Per Doc von Schmeltwick's comments and Doomhiker.
 * 3) Per below.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all

Comments
What about the ones from DK Jr, which PEotGMCE groups with the DK94 ones? Some of those travel on those static particles in a similar manner.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:08, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * I think that can remain in the Spark article, at least for the time being. The name Sparky is most likely meant as a way to break off from the original Spark, similar to when Missile Bill or Bouncing Bullet Bill were originally grouped together with Bullet Bill in Japanese material until they eventually came into their own. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2018 (EST)
 * You set the deadline to December of 2017, not 2018. You might want to fix that. GrainedCargo192 (talk)

Um, Sparks in DK94 have a physical form, they're a 4-pronged ball with a circle of electricity glowing out from said ball. Additionally, most Wire Traps do disappear when they reach the other end of the rope. Only a few in a single mission of Noki Bay make an exception to that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2018 (EST)
 * I believe that sprite is mainly to make the enemy clearer to see on the Game Boy screen; in Mario vs. Donkey Kong, they are unambiguously balls of electricity, with a more animated sprite to take advantage of the Game Boy Advance. Also, in both Donkey Kong games, the Sparky is depicted as static electricity emitted from the wire itself, whereas the red Wire Trap in Super Mario Sunshine comes out of and into the funnel-shaped objects at the ends of the rope it's on. I did forget that was the difference between the red and blue versions (as it's the blue ones that travel back and forth), which I've edited into the proposal. LinkTheLefty (talk) 05:20, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * The thing in GBDK is not simply electricity. It's clearly a collection of Jacob's ladders. Note how there are clear arcs between each spike that you can actually see the wire through when the electricity is at its most outwards. Additionally, some of the "wires" in GBDK are things like mast rigging for a ship, which would, in fact, be ropes. Sparks travel on them too. I've been playing through it today. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 05:24, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * Back in Game Boy Donkey Kong, the horizontal/diagonal wire and vertical rope were referred to with the blanket term "rope", with "wire" having only come later in Mario vs. Donkey Kong - but both thin objects that can only be hung off of are clearly intended to be the same thing in form and function, differentiating themselves from ropes (the manual itself shows a screenshot of the diagonal, rig-like version as an example of a horizontal rope, having the same spinning controls). The ropes that hang between two poles in stages like Big-City are definitely supposed to be the same electrical wires. I'll concede that the original Donkey Kong version might have been intended to be a physical object and Mario vs. Donkey Kong might have been a redesign, but I think it's honestly hard to determine one way or the other. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:01, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * And the things in SMS are far more like the "wires" in every way anyways (really thin, can be spun on, have these little electrical thingies traveling on them...). It's a lot more likely for a 2002 Super Mario enemy to be based off of a GBDK enemy than one might think, mainly as that's where many of Mario's miscellaneous moves originated (rolling, backflipping, shimmying....the middle one even has a similar control input.) Anyways, think about it. Round, spiked object with electricity glowing between said spikes, acting in the same specific manner....seems unlikely that that's a coincidence from my perspective. At least by the time of the official Japanese guide. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:06, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * When you put it like that, it's certainly possible. Still, I'd say that the Super Mario Sunshine ropes are the direct predecessor to the horizontal objects that the rope article classifies as "tightropes" since they can be stood and walked on top of. And anyway, even though you make a good case for it, I think the proposal is still a fair one since fully splitting Sparky wasn't an option before and we can now reconfirm the consensus on it. You should oppose it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:32, 9 December 2018 (EST)
 * I'd suggest just having "Rope (horizontal)" and "Rope (vertical)" pages, given "tightrope" is conjecture. The diagonal would go with horizontal due to function. On a related note, we still need articles for swinging vines and swings themselves. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:54, 9 December 2018 (EST)

Should this proposal really have failed?
I kinda regret from having opposed the split. I think they're different enough, and are not based off of each other. -- 13:05, 26 January 2019 (EST)
 * The proposal failed because there was four more opposers than supporters. If you want to split them then you can make another proposal. 13:13, 26 January 2019 (EST)
 * A proposal? I wouldn't recommand making another proposal about it. Not only will it not pass given the margin of the original, but i don't know much about them. -- 13:18, 26 January 2019 (EST)
 * I've played 100% through both DK94 and Sunshine, and I can assure you they're the same thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:02, 26 January 2019 (EST)
 * I feel like a counterproposal is needed. -- 12:29, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * I still don't think it will garner enough support. 12:30, March 30, 2019 (EDT)
 * I wonder what would LinkTheLefty think about it now... -- 12:46, March 30, 2019 (EDT)