MarioWiki:Proposals

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Merge city course and Kalimari Desert layouts
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ' s version of combines the Mario Kart Tour layouts in the same way as it does with Tour ' s city courses, which I think warrants a reexamination of our policy surrounding these types of tracks. Under that policy, we should have a separate article for the MK8DX version of this course, distinct from both and. We currently don't - however, I take this as less of a call to make one, and more of a sign that our current policy isn't built for this situation.

I make the argument that we should be considering courses with multiple layouts as one course instead of multiple, for the following reasons (many of which I've also stated above):
 * Under our current policy, if never existed, MK8DX  would be the same track and share its article with the original. Conversely, if there was a  where players drove under the ice, MK8  would be considered a different track. My point is that these splits aren't contingent on the tracks themselves and how similar they are to the tracks they share a name with, it's contingent on whether or not a third track exists.
 * The marketing makes no mention of the Booster Course Pass's layouts being new courses - it refers to them as classic courses just like the rest, suggesting they're viewed internally as the same course rather than multiple courses with the same theme. The very name and classification of supports this as well - if it was considered a different course, I don't think they'd call it a classic course. They already have a way to format the names of new courses based on old ones with the RMX courses, so if they considered it one, I'd think they'd use that.
 * The line between a city-style layout variant and a T or R variation is blurry, with both moving objects around the same model. Tracks like Wii Coconut Mall and GCN Baby Park even take racers outside the normal bounds of the track. Most importantly, racers', drivers', and gliders' favorite and favored courses have T and R variations listed just as separately as numbered variations are.

As such, I propose a full merge of main-series multi-layout tracks, which will entail the following:
 * All of Mario Kart Tour ' s city courses will have all their numbered variants merged into the first version's article.
 * Where they exist, the MK8DX version's articles will also be merged in, and the merged article will take on the Tour prefix.
 * Similarly, will be merged into the Mario Kart Tour section of.
 * The classic course article will consider Tour's reroutes to be the same course, with the table being changed to reflect this.
 * Only the first variation of every Tour course will remain on the race courses template.
 * Super Mario Kart and Mario Kart: Super Circuit ' s numbered courses and Mario Kart Tour ' s RMX courses will not be merged, as they don't use the same track model and therefore do not have the same relationship to their counterparts.
 * The tracks from the Mario Kart Arcade GP series will not be merged, as the game treats them as distinct courses with their own names and music.

(If you want to read further discussion on this topic, it has also been discussed here and here.)

Proposer: Deadline: August 13, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Do as proposed

 * 1)  Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal and the discussion on Kalimari Desert’s talk page.
 * 3) Per proposal and what we have discussed here.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) We need to keep the course icons of the numbered variants in Mario Kart Tour in the wiki and also highlight their gameplay implications in terms of being a favorite and favored of different drivers, karts and gliders, just like the respective R, T and R/T variants, but I don't think we need to treat them as courses fully separate from the original - not even the game does that.
 * 6) per discussion in Talk:N64 Kalimari Desert and per proposal
 * 7) Yeah, in the end, if the Booster Course Pass uses all of the different layouts at once, then that pretty much makes everything redundant. Per all.
 * 8) Per all.

Comments
In case one is confused at what Ahemtoday is talking about with "As discussed above", this proposal was originally posted on Talk:N64 Kalimari Desert. I suggest looking there for previous discussion points.

Furthermore, I would like to ask if this also affects this section on the Mario Kart Tour article. Arend (talk) 03:34, August 6, 2022 (EDT)
 * the only thing i think this'll change would be the links, other then that, it would probably remain the same - RSM 08:22, August 6, 2022 (EDT)

Hey, so: if this passes, the only track left in the 8 Deluxe section of the race courses template will be Sky-High Sundae. Do we keep it there since there's always the chance of more tracks like it, or should we scrap that section entirely and move Sky-High Sundae to the Tour section? It is, after all, apparently being treated as a new track for both games. Ahemtoday (talk) 01:31, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * After the next tour starts we'll have a look at the internal name of the course to see its original target platform, if it's mob (mobile devices, i.e. Mario Kart Tour), then it would make sense to just remove that section, if it is u or nsw then we could keep it for the future courses added in the Booster Course Pass that will be treated as new courses in both Mario Kart Tour and the Booster Course Pass while being primarily designed for the latter.--Mister Wu (talk) 03:20, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * Same, though I'm pretty sure that Sky-High Sundae (and basically the rest of the Booster Course Pass) were designed for Tour first, and touched up for 8 Deluxe later. This can be evidenced by the fact that when the pass was announced, the Wave 1 courses used placeholder images directly ripped from Tour, including Coconut Mall and Shroom Ridge, which at the time weren't announced for Tour yet. But yeah, first we will have to see if the internal name for Sky-High Sundae is indeed prefixed with mob or not, but we could find out as early as tomorrow, when the Sundae Tour launches. Arend (talk) 05:31, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * Why are we putting so much stock in internal names and original intentions over the actual final product? Moon Cleft and Killer Pakkun have internal names that suggest they were originally meant to be the base species as per their coloration; that doesn't change what they are in the final product. If SHS is a new track for both games, then it's a new track for both games. If that means the 8DX section of the race courses template will have only one track in it because of this proposal, then so be it. Alternatively, if having the track on the template twice is undesirable, we could just put an asterisk next to the track's name with a note stating that it appeared in 8DX first. 13:47, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * I'm still certain the new courses are made for Tour initially. Aside from the fact that key artwork, initial trailer and the datamined banner from version 2.0.0 all use Tour screenshots as placeholder images, the official announcement trailer on YouTube has its video description start with "Featuring 48 remastered courses from throughout the Mario Kart series", implying that all 48 courses in the Pass are remasters, and that none of them are "brand new". However, I do feel having an asterisk to denote that the course appeared in 8DX first while (initially) made for Tour is a good idea, so I'm down for us to do that if the denotation is desired. Arend (talk) 14:34, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * The point about that video description was brought up on the SHS talk page as well, and my response to it remains the same: what they said about the BCP back in February isn't necessarily gonna hold up several months later. I remember Nintendo saying back when 7 was new that they didn't have any plans to patch that notorious Maka Wuhu respawn glitch for online play, then did exactly that shortly afterward anyway. Even if SHS was originally conceived as a Tour track, it still showed up in 8DX first. The simultaneous announcement for both games may have even been planned from the start - we certainly don't have proof that it wasn't. 17:04, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * Right now, I still see a lot of convincing evidence that suggests Sky-High Sundae is indeed a Tour track that appeared in MK8D just before its intended appearance. Suggesting that the "48 remastered tracks" could not hold up is just as speculative. Right now, there is nothing wrong with taking what Nintendo has officially said instead of speculating that it won't hold up. Sky-High Sundae has an official Tour screenshot in the same banner we're using to confirm DS Shroom Ridge for Tour, one that appeared before it was even confirmed for MK8D. I see nothing incorrect with saying it's a Tour track, even more so if the internal name does match up with other Tour tracks. It's still an official source, if I'm correct.
 * I decided to check the Japanese website and see, using Google Translate, if we can find some more clarification there (as it's been recently updated). Most of the text are actually images, but these can also be translated: the header for the section under the website's main image, but above the course lineup, translates to "Series successive courses appear in 'Mario Kart 8 Deluxe'", while the text for the section itself translates to "From 'Super Mario Kart (Super Famicom)' released in 1992 to 'Mario Kart Tour (app for smartphones)', 48 selected courses from the past series will be remastered and distributed", once again implying that all 48 courses are from these past entries. Or, if what you're claiming is true, and Nintendo "went back on their word", so to speak (which, like Tails777 said, is also very speculative), it may have simply not been updated yet. Regardless, I can definitely see someone make a proposal for what game to determine courses like Sky-High Sundae to be from, because, like the combined courses this current proposal is about, this certainly is an unprecedented case that warrants discussion before deciding what to do with it. Arend (talk) 19:55, August 9, 2022 (EDT)
 * I think it's worth noting that the '48 remastered courses' thing isn't Nintendo's only official word on this: the official website notes the prefixes for every course (even Ninja Hideaway) except for Sky-High Sundae, this page has the word 'NEW' accompanying Sky-High Sundae where the boxart of the origin game would usually be (same thing as in the Wave 2 trailer also), and here Sky-High Sundae is again the only course with no indicator of what game it's from, with even Ninja Hideaway showing it's from Tour (and while I'm not really sure how to directly cite this one, a recent article on the Nintendo Switch's News app distinguished Sky-High Sundae as 'brand new' twice). While the '48 remastered courses' quote is still an official source, I personally don't think it should hold as much weight as the various sources released after Sky-High Sundae's announcement which refer specifically to it being new to 8 Deluxe. 20:21, August 9, 2022 (EDT)

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