MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * 3D World Toad is or isn't Toad. (Discuss) Deadline: June 16, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Mario's Tennis is or isn't part of the Mario Tennis series. (Discuss) Deadline: June 19, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Merge Piranhacus Giganticus with Big Piranha Plant. (Discuss) Deadline: June 21, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Are enemies different from yarn enemies? (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Split Mario & Luigi Bros. Move from Mini Mario. (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Create a separate colour for joke proposals (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

Allow an E3 page
Recently I created a page for the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) [You can view a backup of the page here], which had a brief background on what E3 is and Nintendo's role in it. It then went on to list Nintendo hardware and Mario-related software that had been announced or covered by Nintendo at E3 each year (up to 2004, when I stopped to create this proposal). I was then going to go bak and add a short paragraph overviewing Nintendo's press conference (or Direct) and what demos were available. However, A delete tag was placed on it with the reason: "We don't cover this." However, this wiki does cover it because I was only talking about Nintendo's consoles (all of which are on this wiki) and Mario-related games (which are obviously on this wiki). I dod not mention any other companies or developers, or any games that were not strictly from the Mario Universe. According to this wiki's coverage policy (see here), there is no statement or even suggestion forbidding this page (or page similar to this) to be created. A page for E3 should be allowed to be created, as it would only cover the Mario series and Nintendo, and there is no policy forbidding it.

Proposer: Deadline: June 16, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I think it's okay but we can maybe call it ??
 * 3) I don't see why not. After all, we have a page for Nintendo, which is just as Mario-related, and (possibly more accurately) the Wii U and 3DS.

Oppose

 * 1) Coverage says Mario related media, I don't see E3 as Mario related just because it has Mario games. Now my mine problem with this is reasoning for having this page. Only reason I can see us thinking to cover this is because it has Mario related media in it, so do demos. We're not going to be creating an article on every single demo that has featured a Mario game. And also why only E3? Games can be announced through a Nintendo Direct, something not covered by the wiki. They can also be announced through other gaming conferences, and possibly even interviews, and creating an article on an interview seems illogical. Also, as aforementioned, what about the other gaming conferences, and even arguably VGX (considering Cranky Kong was announced as a playable character for Tropical Freeze and this arguably gives some relevance to it)? Personally I think it'd be better to put this in either the glossary, a subsection on Nintendo's page, or create a page on major videogame conferences, but creating a page solely on E3 I don't think is a good idea.
 * 2) Per Yoshi876. (Yes, I read everything word for word.)
 * 3) Per Yoshi. Maybe all conferences combined would get a page, but E3 getting one alone is ridiculous.
 * 4) Per Yoshi and standard practices. We've always added games as they are announced and listed "announced at E3" or some such, but creating an entire page to cover something we already do is a waste of resources.
 * 5) Per everyone.
 * 6) Per everyone.
 * 7) Per Ghost Jam.

Comments
@Yoshi876: However, this article is only talking about the Mario-related aspect of the conference. If we did decide to create a page for VGX, then it would only cover Mario-related things (which would be Cranky Kong). For your second point, I am actually working on a Nintendo Direct page, which will be on this wiki soon, so we will cover that. And on your last point, I would not be opposed at all to creating a page on Video Game Conferences, and if you think that woud be the best course of action I would be happy to do so. 11:26, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I don't think we should cover Nintendo Directs just like I don't think E3 should be given that coverage. As my main stands, the reasoning for the creation is weak, "It's related to Mario", so are demo events at game stores, so are game stores that sell those games, those would not get article so I don't see why this should. Personally I think the best course of action may be a page for major gaming conferences, and if not mentioning E3 in the glossary and Nintendo Directs getting a sub-section on the Nintendo page.
 * Since the page will not be deleted until this proposal passes, should I go ahead and move it to a page entitled Video Game Conferences or wait? 11:33, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Seeing as it's not on coverage policy, like I said in my oppose, it's already open to deletion. I'd wait until the end of proposal and if it does pass move it to something like "List of major videogame conferences".

Aren't ESRB, CERO, ACB, USK, DEJUS, PEGI the same deal?-- 18:09, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * All Mario games have some sort of rating and having a page here to explain the rating is fine. That's my opinion. 18:12, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I know but possibly a "List of games by rating" would suit it better.-- 18:13, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Possibly but I have no strong opinion on this. 18:21, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Either way, I feel these are kinda related. Both are media-related, that Mario series has some information regarding it. I don't have an opinion on the proposal itself one way or another.-- 18:52, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Rumors Section
I believe that we should have a rumors section on articles that include rumors. This section could have a notice in it, stating that all it contains are rumors and have no proof. Some of the more popular rumors (like the DLC characters in Mario Kart 8, or the E3 "leak" in SSB4) could be added. A similar section is used on Zelda Wiki, for theories. The rumors section would allow people to see what may be in the game. While it may not be very encyclopedia-ish, it would be more helpful, which is indeed what MarioWiki is designed to be, right? I doubt I'll win this but you never know unless you try. So yeah.

Proposer: Deadline: June 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal. I think it would be useful to know what may or may not be in the game.

Oppose

 * 1) We document on what's confirmed, not on widely circulated unconfirmed, unofficial information. According to the Citation Policy, "Rumours and misleading info is commonplace online, so showing readers that we are not fabricating our info and in turn, letting them evaluate the trustworthiness of our sources is especially important." This policy is there to leave out rumors and keep us as a reputable source. We don't want people taking rumors as true just because they're documented here. Finally, there are countless rumors regarding upcoming games, so having to document all of them is going to be impossible. The only type of rumors that may be covered here are those debunked years ago, and even then, it's a maybe.  I see that you're trying to make sections that already inform the reader that the information is dubious, but why add such information in the first place? I don't really agree with fan "theories" on Link Wiki either, but that's another wiki anyway. Anyhow, the best place to discuss rumors would be the appropriate talk page, so really, nothing is lost if this proposal fails; there's just an equally-valid outlet to put rumors and other information.
 * 2) The internet is a chock full place of rumors. Look at Reddit and 4chan, they're basically "Rumors: The Site". We're not gonna site all rumors, and these are as valid as fan content such as fan games, no matter how popular or how well-documented they are. Well-known rumors like the Sonic and Tails April Fools joke in Super Smash Bros. Melee are more suited for Trivia sections. Also, per Mario.
 * 3) Per both. Though I worry that discussing rumours on the talkpage may qualify as forum talk.
 * 4) Per All.
 * 5) If we had a rumours section, Ridley would be all over the SSB4 page and this would the Fanrio Wiki.
 * 6) Simply allowing rumors to be added may allow people to see what may be in the game as you've said. However, it doubts their mind on if we are really covering things from the game or from randomness. Encyclopedias only contains facts, so that they can be trusted. And as what LGM said, our Citation Policy already shows why rumors are not allowed. The Good Writing disallow speculation, which is the rumors are part of. And I agree with Yoshi876.
 * 7) Sorry, but the wiki covers real and comfirmed things, like an encyclopedia. But I guess everyone else is saying that too, huh?
 * 8) Per policy. However, if you feel that a particular rumor might be useful for a particular article and can make a good case for it, feel free to hit up that articles talk page.

Comments
@Yoshi876, it's not really forum talk, imo. We're talking about improving the article, so bringing up rumors and stuff can help us verify and filter information before it's added. We did allow some Mario Kart 8-related rumors on its talk page, usually the well-circulated ones, so we shouldn't remove those. Forum talk isn't really finely defined, so use your own judgement to see if it pertains to the article or not. 16:52, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Although I expected this to go rather poorly (as mentioned in my proposal), it appears (at least to me) that you think I'm suggesting putting rumors all over the page (like, in the characters section for SSB4 put Ridley as a rumored character). I was thinking rumors would be limited to just a single section (or possibly a page in a similar vein to SmashWiki). These rumors would make no other appearances on the site (except talk pages). Peanutjon (talk) 19:38, 14 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Even if it's confined to a single page, it's still opening the floodgates for kiddies to trip themselves over to add low-quality content and obvious nonsense like ~leaked conference listing sheets~ photographed at an odd angle or w/e. --Glowsquid (talk) 20:29, 14 June 2014 (EDT).

Removals
None at the moment.

Creating Separate Pages for DIC Cartoon Characters
Right now the characters that appear in these cartoons have sections for the DIC cartoons they appear in. Some of these sections are quite large. Some would be even larger if there weren't numerous links in place guiding the users to a page of their appearances in the shows. The first point of this proposal is because there's so much information on their appearances in these cartoons, simply because as a cartoon there's a large number of varying appearances to take note of, that for example the Koopalings pages actually list each episode they appear in and describe their role in each episode right in the section on their page. That makes for sections larger than almost any other on their page. And yes a solution to this is linking to a list of their appearances, but that gets rid of a lot of info. Plus there are other reasons for this proposal.

We already create separate pages for characters appearances in the live-action film. These appearances are really no different. The setting is different, literally most of the characters have different names and different appearances, which is something that's not going to change and become established like it does in the games, the characters have different personalities, even, and with all these differences arises the need for a lot of comparison between the games that we wouldn't have to make if they just had their own pages. The Princess Daisy that appears in the film has her own page, so does the Bowser character, Iggy, and others. The way that works is, the new page is made, all info pertaining to that goes on the new page, and the page is added to the already established disambiguation lists linked at the top of the game characters pages. The cartoon characters are definitely disambiguously different from their game counterparts, it is stated on most of the cartoon pages how they are "loosely" based on everything from the game. None of this is to suggest that they aren't official, they are, that's why information for them is on the wiki in the first place. Unlike similarly based depictions of the characters outside of the games like most of the comics, the characters that appear in the cartoons have much more information to go-off of and therefore much more that distinguishes them from their game counterparts.

If you're familiar with these cartoons, you might have a nostalgic attachment to them, but that just means you already know how unique they are as far as even just the characters go. You should also know that this isn't a means to make them lesser, it's a means to give them the space they need on their own and the space they need to simply state what they are instead of compare them with every little detail to the game content they're based on. A good example might be the Baby Characters. Baby Mario is totally a form of Mario, and even though he too is a game character, there's a separate page for him because of all the different things he does. So it's not just the name or the look, though those do help, it's that it's a character on its own based on the other.

If the characters name by chance isn't different, simply putting (DIC) in the page name just as we have put (film) for the live-action characters seems good.

Proposer: Deadline: June 15, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) - See comments. Unlike the film characters, there's far less large, fundamental differences between the cartoons and games, so there's less justification for the splits. Plus, if the DIC characters are split, then the DKC cartoon characters might be said to need splitting too, and then it could snowball into splitting all the non-game media depictions of characters, plus there's ambiguity about what to do with comics that sometimes base themselves ojn the games, sometimes the cartoons, and sometimes do their own thing entirely. Seems like a rather slippery slope, and I'm leery about starting us down it.
 * 2) Per Walkazo.
 * 3) Like 'Kazo said, there aren't enough differences, and we'd get a whole bunch of "splits".
 * 4) Per Walkazo. Agreed that the differences are small and with not wanting to open Pandora's box on this one.
 * 5) This unnecessary splitting could cause unnecessary clutter. Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Deviations occur within the video game series as well. This proposal also, indirectly, advocates splitting non-video game media, which can encourage those pesky canon arguments. At least the cartoons and Super Mario-Kun had a whole lot of source material incorporated (sound effects in the show; Super Mario-Kun has game-accurate depictions of their characters; you instantly recognize them if you played the game), unlike the film, which has nary a shred of source material. To add on: it might sound like a weak argument to advocate splitting film information because the film is terrible, but the reasons (why the film needs to be split and why the film is terribe) are scarily the same; no source material.
 * 7) I'm against any splitting of the medias.
 * 8) I agree with Walkazo and Marshal Dan Troop.
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
This seems like something that would do better first as a TPP, then brought here once a precedent was set, but I digress. Likely these pages haven't been made because the sections were created at a time before making an article for every little thing was standard practice. Any editors who are familiar with the subject matter want to chime in? I'm curious if that was the case or if there was a specific reason for not splitting. -- Chris 17:38, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Gold Mario (character) is another example. But what exactly do we do with BOTH series, Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World, put them into the same page, I'm guessing? It would seem logical. The thing is with this change, Mario is still Mario, not an alternate form or human that resembles him. For this proposal to work, the Super Mario Bros. Super Show! would need its own character page created. - 17:43, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I wanted to try a TPP, but it needs to be done for pretty much all the game characters who are in the cartoons, so I didn't know how to go about that. And Ninlevendo, yeah I think both series would pertain to these pages. Both cartoons are grouped under a DIC cartoons section on character pages right now, even sharing introductory information before separate information. And in regards to the live-action show, that ties in with the DIC cartoons, right? I figured we would just include information on the couple of live-action portrayals on the new (DIC) character's pages. Unless they too are very unique portrayals on their own with enough info to warrant their own pages as well?
 * I believe the reason we never created separate character pages for Mario and Luigi for the film was because unlike Princess Daisy and Bowser and others character's in the film, they didn't differ as much as these characters and as a film, a poor film even, there wasn't much to say in the way of them like there is the cartoon characters. If the live-portrayals for Super Mario Bros Super Show don't have as much to separate them, it could be appropriate to include that info on the DIC cartoon character pages proposed, right?UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:09, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * @Ghost Jam: This proposal from 2009 resulted in the film characters being split, after an earlier proposal just about Daisy, which was removed and never properly archived; the decision was reaffirmed by this 2012 proposal. The argument was that (some of) the film characters were so different from the ones in the games, it would be easier to just treat them as separate characters. Eventually, all the other characters got split, although I don't think that was done by a Proposal: it was just done and no one protested, maybe because it was being consistent with the film characters that did have pages. While there are tonnes of differences between the film and the games (Iggy is Koopa's idiot cousin not his nerdy kid; Daisy is the princess of the "mushroom kingdom", Dinohatten; Big Bertha is a bouncer, not a fish; Toad is a delinquent busker), I feel like there's a lot more similarity between the games and cartoons (Toadstool is still the princess; Koopa is still an evil king with seven kids; the Mushroom Kingdom is the setting...), and most of the differences aren't as radical as the film (i.e. Toadstool and Bowsers' different designs are based on the game sprites; Mario & Luigi's origin story is the same as early games, before Yoshi's Island, etc.), so it's a lot harder to justify splitting them. The fact that the comics borrow from both game-like and cartoon-like designs and portrayals further muddles the two, and if this passes, it could snowball into wanting to split things like the Donkey Kong Country cartoon characters, the offbeat Super Mario-Kun portrayals, and then maybe all comic and alternate media appearances, and this way of thinking has been strongly discouraged as a way of organizing the wiki in the past, one reason being that it makes it look like different medias are held as being more-or-less important or canon by the wiki, which isn't true. (I'm not even comfortable with the fact that everyone's hatred of the film is part of why those characters got separated in the first place, but ah well.) -
 * But I did point out that one of the major reasons is because of the vast amount of content to be said with their cartoon appearances. And Bowser actually doesn't have seven kids any longer. The koopalings designs are also vastly different. Some of the same character traits apply to the major characters, but with their appearances in numerous episodes, again, there's a lot to say in the way of the cartoon characters that doesn't apply to the game characters. So there's a lot that could be included on separate pages for them that right now you can't include everything, but there's still too much info for a lot of the characters to be put into a measly section for them. Also, I thought one of the cartoons took place in Dinosaurland? With cavemen and everything. I also did mention how there simply isn't as much to say about comic appearances in comparison to the amount there is with the cartoons in regards to what can be grouped together, so just because this proposes separate pages for the cartoon characters, doesn't mean it would be enough to justify separate pages for any other non-game media appearance. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:21, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Also with your comment on being uncomfortable with people's feelings towards the film and them being separated already, I think you might be letting your feelings get in the way of how this could actually be a good thing for the information we provide on the cartoons. Again, part of the reason of this proposal is to provide a better more appropriate space to provide information on the characters as they appear in the cartoon. Bowser's page is a good example of how there just isn't a good outcome to keeping every form of the character on one page.UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

re huge sections: Sizable, episode-by-episode summaries on character articles are "supposed" to go on separate pages (like this). The format hasn't caught on, but there's no there couldn't be a push to make the format viable. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * The very opening of my proposal addresses that, so this has already been covered by me, even.UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 22:50, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Yeah, someone should make a Collab about that someday... Anyway, @FD09: Bowser has seven kids in the games back then (and their looks aren't "vastly" different, not like, say Iggy and Iggy (film character)), so that's a moot point, and SMW the game is set in Dinosaur Land which is where SMW the show gets its prehistoric setting, so again, your argument falls flat. Actually, Super Mario-Kun is even more extensive as the cartoons, but I digress. Even if the floodgates of splits doesn't open, separating out the cartoon information orphans the print media stuff that's based on the cartoon depictions - unless that stuff gets moved too, but then it's not just "DIC" or even "cartoon" anymore, and there's comic stuff on both sets of pages, and just getting messy. Also, my comment on people hating the film was in direct response to your earlier "a poor film even" aside; even though I do like the film, that didn't stop me from objectively voting in favour of those splits then and it has nothing to do with my vote now. I don't even have "nostalgic attachment" to the cartoons (I never watched them as a kid or even as a teen), so rest assured, my vote is purely from a wiki organizational perspective. -
 * When the lead actor's biggest regret in life is the film and it is generally panned, it's easily described as poor without much personal opinion involved, but that's whatever. We don't have that much info on Super Mario-Kun, though, do we? Nowhere near as much as the cartoons. I genuinely thought I'd kill two birds with one stone with this proposal, providing a better space for the cartoon depictions and one that could allow for all the info it has, on top of making the original characters pages less stuffed up and filled with constant comparisons of the never-ending differences between depictions, but if the concern that it lessons its importance is your biggest reason, I think you're overlooking those plus-sides in favor of something less important when it comes to providing information on everything. And I hardly think my argument falls flat just because the setting shares its name. That's the same as how I pointed out that even though some of the characters names might not differ, the depiction itself does. And it's not the same thing as how settings in the games warp appearance, it's obviously a new world with the same name in the cartoon. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:07, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

"The very opening of my proposal addresses that, so this has already been covered by me, even"

I don't see how describing the by-episode appearances on a separate page is "losing info", though..? --Glowsquid (talk) 23:15, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * @FD09: (We actually have lots of Super Mario-Kun info, it's just untranslated, but that's another story.) I only meant your specific "cartoon's dinosaurland setting =/= games" argument doesn't work because the general setting is from the games, and while it's not exactly the same (i.e. it's called "Dinosaur World" in the show), neither are the settings simply going from game to game, so that's not a strong argument either. Practically every new title gives us a new version of the Mushroom Kingdom, for example, and sometimes it's called the "Mushroom World" instead, but is still the same place (or it's the kingdom and its neighbours, for added inconsistency). Bowser's Castle is also constantly changing, and Peach's Castle, and Toad Town, and every other place that appears more than once: with the Mario series, you really can't sweat the details: the film had radically different points, but the cartoons don't. That's my biggest point - that and the "setting a dangerous precedent" point: I'm not saying we'll lessen the importance of alternate media through splits, just that readers might read too much into divisions by media and think we are, which is different and more of a side-note. -

Well I just created the list of episodes for each of the cartoons for Lemmy Koopa. I didn't know to call them list of episodes featuring Lemmy Koopa or Hip Koopa, so right now it's Lemmy Koopa. On top of that I realized there's a separate page for the Super Mario World cartoon then the game, which if you think about it is the exact same thing as creating a different page for the character. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * It's not the same at all: they're different physical (i.e. IRL) things. The characters being the same or different is arguable, but a game is not a cartoon, and RL matters of distinction are not comparable to in-universe stuff like this. Very good point about the Lemmy vs. Hip thing, however. I think the cartoon name should be used for the cartoon info, like how we have King Koopa's alter egos, not "Bowser's alter egos", and (are supposed to) call Peach "Toadstool" in cartoon sections and pages. - 02:43, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.