Template talk:SSBU

Determine which characters count as bosses in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
There's been some issues going on with trying to classify which characters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate count as bosses and which ones don't. Well, there's a lot of disagreement going on for the past...year or so, so this proposal must will hopefully set the record straight. Here are the points I've made regarding this topic on other user's talk pages:
 * 1) Giga Bowser, Galleom, Dharkon, Galeem, Marx, Dracula, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Rathalos and Ganon (all of which appear in both Classic Mode and World of Light) have health bars at the top of the screen, which aren't the same as damage percentages or the Stamina mode health bars.
 * 2) These bosses don't have the announcer say "Ready? Go!" at the start of the battle. The announcer only starts the battle during regular Smash battles in other occurrences throughout the game.
 * 3) These bosses can't suffer any knockback whatsoever. Compare that to the other playable fighters, who can suffer knockback.
 * 4) The "so-called" bosses at the end of Classic Mode (those being a Giant Donkey Kong, a Giant Palutena and a Metal Mario, to name a few) have none of these things. These battles play literally just like any other Smash battle in the game. Not only that, most of them just use a permanent Super Mushroom or Metal Box, just like other opponents found in other character's Classic Modes (like Kirby fighting a Giant Yoshi and a Giant Wario or the Dragon Quest Hero fighting a Giant Charizard after defeating Robin for his final round) and others are literally just some playable characters back-to-back (like with the final round for both Hero and Mega Man).
 * 5) Not to mention, those "so-called" bosses aren't treated differently by the game at all. They are treated the same as a regular playable character before the battle begins. For example, in Kirby's Classic Mode, he has to fight a Giant Yoshi in Round 2 and a Giant Wario in Round 4. Before the battles, there's nothing that indicates the opponents are going to be giant-sized until after it starts. Same with the "so-called" bosses (although in Bowser's case, the Metal-Boxed Mario spawns after the regular Mario is defeated).
 * 6) The actual bosses in Classic Mode, depending on which character is selected, are not always fought for the final round. Some characters fight the boss before the final round (Mega Man, Bowser and the Hero come to mind); the actual final round for some characters is against a regular character or two regular characters, one after another (Bowser, Mega Man, Jigglypuff and Bayonetta come to mind in this specific instance).

Doc von Schmeltwick and Alex95 provided some of their own reasonings about why this isn't the case, but both of them are flawed. Doc's reasoning is that "they're bosses." No, they're not. If the game does not treat them as such and treats them like a playable character in a Mega or Metal Smash in Custom Smash or heck, even an ordinary Smash battle, then they don't count as bosses under any circumstance. If every giant or metal rival in Classic Mode was classified as a boss just because some user said so, then every single one fought in that mode would be on the template when in actuality, the bosses with health bars at the top of the screen should be the only ones on there in the first place.

Secondly, Alex95's reasoning is that the definition of a "boss in video games" is someone that is the final roadblock that stands in your way of a goal. But the thing is...literally anyone in Smash Bros. (spirits or not) could fit under that definition, Giant or Metal or not. Sure, they may have several different roles, but the permanent Giant or Metal opponents at the end of some Classic Mode routes are not bosses. Heck, on the splash screen before these battles, the game calls them the "Final Round," not the "Final Boss." For good reason, because not everyone fights a boss during the final round. That definition is also flawed in regards to other games in general, as enemies also serve the same purpose to standing in your way to a goal.

Who knows what these users here think after reading all of these points, so I'm letting you vote between three different options:

1) Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters or just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template.

Conditions:
 * The Giant or Metal playable characters and regular-old-playable characters with no changes whatsoever from the template will be removed.
 * The bosses present in that section are ones who appear in both World of Light and Classic Mode (and Galeem and Dharkon).

2) Add a new section in the template to categorize the Giant or Metal fighters and regular playable characters under a new header (something I came up of during the initial talk-page arguments).

Conditions:
 * A new section in the template will be added, which contains the Giant or Metal playable characters and others.
 * The bosses from both World of Light and Classic Mode (and Galeem and Dharkon) will be in the same section as previously if this option passes.
 * New section name suggestions can go in the comments.

3) Do absolutely nothing.

Conditions:
 * The dreaded selection and should not be chosen under any circumstances.
 * Those who select it will get vaporized by Galeem be counterpointed and persuaded in the comments below.

So, what do you think? Should the Giant and Metal playable characters fought at the end of someone's Classic Mode in a regular Smash battle count as bosses or not? Personally, I think not.

Proposer: Deadline: September 21, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Remove the Giant or Metal variations of playable characters and just playable characters from the Bosses section of the template

 * 1) My primary choice. Per all the points I've made up above. Kinda interesting how each proposal I've done so far has multiple choices, but that's not important right now.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Couldn't agree with the proposal more.  There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the giant/metal fighters in the final round from generic fighters other than their giant/metal status; and heck, there are other giant/metal fighters fought elsewhere in Classic Mode.  They play out like normal Smash battles too, whereas the actual bosses are unique in that they have a health bar along the top of the screen and have no knockback.  So absolutely, per proposal.
 * 4) Per proposal, especially points 3 and 5 4 and 6. If Giant Palutena is a boss, but not Giant Yoshi, solely because the former is the last round, then why aren't Dr. Mario and Mewtwo (Mega Man's last battle) listed? There's no consistency.

Add a new section in the template and categorize these fighters under a new header relating to Classic Mode

 * 1) My secondary choice. Per the points I've made up above.

Do absolutely nothing

 * 1) I cannot hammer this home enough. Bosses is bosses. They don't need every possible attribute to be a boss, just the most important one, ie being an especially-strong opponent fought near some sort of climax. Following your logic, Jigglypuff has no bosses (which isn't true). "World of Light" has no bearing on the Classic Mode.
 * 2) - You twisted some of my words. While I did say "a "boss", in its simplest definition, is someone that stands in your way of a goal", which can mean literally any enemy ever, I clarified that it was supposed to mean "someone who stands directly at or before the goal and tries to keep you from obtaining it." You even responded to this clarification, yet didn't add it to this. Anyway, I brought up my points here, here, and here and am holding to them.
 * 3) - Per Doc and Alex.
 * 4) - Bosses don't have to have a particular attribute to be a boss. Strong, strong, strongstrongstrong oppose. They're characters fought at the end of a themed route, they count as bosses.

Comments
@Doc von Schmeltwick: In this example, Jigglypuff has "no" bosses (which is true). The actual bosses in World of Light also appear in Classic Mode, not counting Galeem and Dharkon. In which case, why would ordinary playable characters with permanent Giant or Metal status be boss material if you can literally achieve that same ffect in Custom Smash? @Alex95: In that case, an ordinary playable character or a playable character with status buffs normally found in Custom Smash does not count as a boss, even if they're the last obstacle before winning the Classic Mode in this case. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 16:38, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * The World of Light has no bearing on Classic Mode. Saying that Jigglypuff has "no" bosses is straight-up lying (which is reprehensible). It's an absurdly blatant call-back to a SSB boss. And it has an even more boss-like role here. Issa boss, no ifs, ands, or buts. You keep repeating that blatantly wrong notion that a character with a perm status effect can't be a boss, which is ludicrous. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:45, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * What? Yes, they do. They are the last obstacle, hence boss. 17:37, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

@Alex95 and Lord Grammaticus: But those characters in question, as YoshiFlutterJump pointed out, do not fight any different than a regular Smash battle. In fact, it literally is nothing more than a Smash battle in Classic Mode and does not differentiate from the other Giant or Metal fighters fought "before" the final battle. @Doc von Schmeltwick and Lord Grammaticus: Again, Jigglypuff has "no" bosses is not straight-up lying. It's true, as both me and YoshiFlutterJump have pointed out above. Again again, why would ordinary playable characters with permanent Giant or Metal status at the end of Classic Mode be any different from another similar battle before that point in the same mode or even in a Custom Smash battle in the first place? Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 17:49, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

Giant DK's served as a boss of sorts in SSB before like Metal Mario has, and is clearly intended to serve the same role here, unlike most other Giant/Metal fighters. Ultimate's classic mode routes are all clearly themed, and using a boss character from the original Smash Bros. as the final fight clearly fits into that theme and, in my opinion, shows that it's intended to be the route's boss. For me, it's simple as that - nothing says a boss battle in a game has to be that dramatically different from any regular fights, though some of them naturally will be. -- 17:58, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * I already rebutted those points. 18:09, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As have I. He's on a broken record regarding it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * As have I. I really feel that unnecessary repetition is not a good way to convince people that you are right and they are wrong, especially when done for half a year. 21:45, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * All that's doing is making it seem more and more like the motive for starting this proposal was to be "right" about something more than anything, and that irritates me to no end, especially if it turns out to be true. -- 21:49, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Precisely my thoughts on the matter. You said it better than even I could. 21:50, September 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Being frank, I was getting that impression even as I glanced at the convo that preceded this prior to the proposal being made. I didn't wanna say anything initially, but I'm currently in no mood to pull punches. -- 21:52, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

@7feetunder: They were listed, but then someone removed them. tbh, they fit the bill as well. 18:11, September 7, 2019 (EDT)

Pretty sure that saying what basically amounts to "do not pick option three because option three is bad" is not kosher under any circumstances. 22:02, September 7, 2019 (EDT)