MarioWiki:Proposals

List of Talk Page Proposals

 * Merge Green Power Star with Green Star (Super Mario 3D World) (Discuss) Deadline: June 14, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * 3D World Toad is or isn't Toad. (Discuss) Deadline: June 16, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Mario's Tennis is or isn't part of the Mario Tennis series. (Discuss) Deadline: June 19, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Merge Piranhacus Giganticus with Big Piranha Plant. (Discuss) Deadline: June 21, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Are enemies different from yarn enemies? (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Split Mario & Luigi Bros. Move from Mini Mario. (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.
 * Create a separate colour for joke proposals (Discuss) Deadline: June 24, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Writing Guidelines
None at the moment.

Allow an E3 page
Recently I created a page for the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) [You can view a backup of the page here], which had a brief background on what E3 is and Nintendo's role in it. It then went on to list Nintendo hardware and Mario-related software that had been announced or covered by Nintendo at E3 each year (up to 2004, when I stopped to create this proposal). I was then going to go bak and add a short paragraph overviewing Nintendo's press conference (or Direct) and what demos were available. However, A delete tag was placed on it with the reason: "We don't cover this." However, this wiki does cover it because I was only talking about Nintendo's consoles (all of which are on this wiki) and Mario-related games (which are obviously on this wiki). I dod not mention any other companies or developers, or any games that were not strictly from the Mario Universe. According to this wiki's coverage policy (see here), there is no statement or even suggestion forbidding this page (or page similar to this) to be created. A page for E3 should be allowed to be created, as it would only cover the Mario series and Nintendo, and there is no policy forbidding it.

Proposer: Deadline: June 16, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) I think it's okay but we can maybe call it ??
 * 3) I don't see why not. After all, we have a page for Nintendo, which is just as Mario-related, and (possibly more accurately) the Wii U and 3DS.

Oppose

 * 1) Coverage says Mario related media, I don't see E3 as Mario related just because it has Mario games. Now my mine problem with this is reasoning for having this page. Only reason I can see us thinking to cover this is because it has Mario related media in it, so do demos. We're not going to be creating an article on every single demo that has featured a Mario game. And also why only E3? Games can be announced through a Nintendo Direct, something not covered by the wiki. They can also be announced through other gaming conferences, and possibly even interviews, and creating an article on an interview seems illogical. Also, as aforementioned, what about the other gaming conferences, and even arguably VGX (considering Cranky Kong was announced as a playable character for Tropical Freeze and this arguably gives some relevance to it)? Personally I think it'd be better to put this in either the glossary, a subsection on Nintendo's page, or create a page on major videogame conferences, but creating a page solely on E3 I don't think is a good idea.
 * 2) Per Yoshi876. (Yes, I read everything word for word.)
 * 3) Per Yoshi. Maybe all conferences combined would get a page, but E3 getting one alone is ridiculous.
 * 4) Per Yoshi and standard practices. We've always added games as they are announced and listed "announced at E3" or some such, but creating an entire page to cover something we already do is a waste of resources.
 * 5) Per everyone.
 * 6) Per everyone.
 * 7) Per Ghost Jam.

Comments
@Yoshi876: However, this article is only talking about the Mario-related aspect of the conference. If we did decide to create a page for VGX, then it would only cover Mario-related things (which would be Cranky Kong). For your second point, I am actually working on a Nintendo Direct page, which will be on this wiki soon, so we will cover that. And on your last point, I would not be opposed at all to creating a page on Video Game Conferences, and if you think that woud be the best course of action I would be happy to do so. 11:26, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I don't think we should cover Nintendo Directs just like I don't think E3 should be given that coverage. As my main stands, the reasoning for the creation is weak, "It's related to Mario", so are demo events at game stores, so are game stores that sell those games, those would not get article so I don't see why this should. Personally I think the best course of action may be a page for major gaming conferences, and if not mentioning E3 in the glossary and Nintendo Directs getting a sub-section on the Nintendo page.
 * Since the page will not be deleted until this proposal passes, should I go ahead and move it to a page entitled Video Game Conferences or wait? 11:33, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Seeing as it's not on coverage policy, like I said in my oppose, it's already open to deletion. I'd wait until the end of proposal and if it does pass move it to something like "List of major videogame conferences".

Aren't ESRB, CERO, ACB, USK, DEJUS, PEGI the same deal?-- 18:09, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * All Mario games have some sort of rating and having a page here to explain the rating is fine. That's my opinion. 18:12, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I know but possibly a "List of games by rating" would suit it better.-- 18:13, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Possibly but I have no strong opinion on this. 18:21, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Either way, I feel these are kinda related. Both are media-related, that Mario series has some information regarding it. I don't have an opinion on the proposal itself one way or another.-- 18:52, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Rumors Section
I believe that we should have a rumors section on articles that include rumors. This section could have a notice in it, stating that all it contains are rumors and have no proof. Some of the more popular rumors (like the DLC characters in Mario Kart 8, or the E3 "leak" in SSB4) could be added. A similar section is used on Zelda Wiki, for theories. The rumors section would allow people to see what may be in the game. While it may not be very encyclopedia-ish, it would be more helpful, which is indeed what MarioWiki is designed to be, right? I doubt I'll win this but you never know unless you try. So yeah.

Proposer: Deadline: June 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal. I think it would be useful to know what may or may not be in the game.

Oppose

 * 1) We document on what's confirmed, not on widely circulated unconfirmed, unofficial information. According to the Citation Policy, "Rumours and misleading info is commonplace online, so showing readers that we are not fabricating our info and in turn, letting them evaluate the trustworthiness of our sources is especially important." This policy is there to leave out rumors and keep us as a reputable source. We don't want people taking rumors as true just because they're documented here. Finally, there are countless rumors regarding upcoming games, so having to document all of them is going to be impossible. The only type of rumors that may be covered here are those debunked years ago, and even then, it's a maybe.  I see that you're trying to make sections that already inform the reader that the information is dubious, but why add such information in the first place? I don't really agree with fan "theories" on Link Wiki either, but that's another wiki anyway. Anyhow, the best place to discuss rumors would be the appropriate talk page, so really, nothing is lost if this proposal fails; there's just an equally-valid outlet to put rumors and other information.
 * 2) The internet is a chock full place of rumors. Look at Reddit and 4chan, they're basically "Rumors: The Site". We're not gonna site all rumors, and these are as valid as fan content such as fan games, no matter how popular or how well-documented they are. Well-known rumors like the Sonic and Tails April Fools joke in Super Smash Bros. Melee are more suited for Trivia sections. Also, per Mario.
 * 3) Per both. Though I worry that discussing rumours on the talkpage may qualify as forum talk.
 * 4) Per All.
 * 5) If we had a rumours section, Ridley would be all over the SSB4 page and this would the Fanrio Wiki.
 * 6) Simply allowing rumors to be added may allow people to see what may be in the game as you've said. However, it doubts their mind on if we are really covering things from the game or from randomness. Encyclopedias only contains facts, so that they can be trusted. And as what LGM said, our Citation Policy already shows why rumors are not allowed. The Good Writing disallow speculation, which is the rumors are part of. And I agree with Yoshi876.
 * 7) Sorry, but the wiki covers real and comfirmed things, like an encyclopedia. But I guess everyone else is saying that too, huh?
 * 8) Per policy. However, if you feel that a particular rumor might be useful for a particular article and can make a good case for it, feel free to hit up that articles talk page.

Comments
@Yoshi876, it's not really forum talk, imo. We're talking about improving the article, so bringing up rumors and stuff can help us verify and filter information before it's added. We did allow some Mario Kart 8-related rumors on its talk page, usually the well-circulated ones, so we shouldn't remove those. Forum talk isn't really finely defined, so use your own judgement to see if it pertains to the article or not. 16:52, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Removals
None at the moment.

Changes to the sub-series sections
On the Mario (series) page, we separate the Super Mario Land games into their own series. The third game might've been Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 in American, but originally in Japan, it is Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land. The Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, and even Mario Advance games are in their own sub-series sections, too. All the games with New in the title also either have Bowser Jr. or Bowser Jr. AND the Koopalings ever since the first New Super Mario game for the DS and Wii respectively. So obviously there are elements limited to the New Super Mario Bros. games only in-line with each-other, and it goes without saying the Super Mario Bros. games are different from the Super Mario games.

Right now what we're doing is grouping all the Super Mario Bros. games in with not only the New Super Mario Bros. games, but also all the Super Mario games that have only one or two entries in their respective series. So doesn't it make sense to bundle any Super Mario games separate from these two series, but with each-other until at least three games of a kind are released, as we have done with Super Mario Land?

This would change the current one list to three:

Super Mario Bros. series:
 * Super Mario Bros.
 * Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels
 * Super Mario Bros. 2
 * Super Mario Bros. 3
 * Super Mario World

Super Mario series:
 * Super Mario 64
 * Super Mario Sunshine
 * Super Mario Galaxy
 * Super Mario Galaxy 2
 * Super Mario 3D Land
 * Super Mario 3D World

New Super Mario Bros. series:
 * New Super Mario Bros.
 * New Super Mario Bros. Wii
 * New Super Mario Bros. 2
 * New Super Mario Bros. U

Super Mario World would go into the Super Mario Bros. series because of its original name and heavy ties to Super Mario Bros. 3. Super Mario Bros. 2 would go into the Super Mario series because of its original name and weak ties to Super Mario Bros. 3. While as far as the names go this is confusing at first look without prior knowledge, the name itself is not the reason for grouping these games, as again, is the case with Super Mario Land already. The Galaxy and 3D games would not get their own sub-series sections until there is a third game in either series respectively.

As it is now, this also causes for the history sections on character pages to have a broken flow. We initiated the sub-series in the first place so that for example Super Mario Sunshine wasn't paced in-between Mario Party 4 and Mario Golf Toadstool Tour, but now a game like this might be placed in-between Super Mario Bros. 3 and its sequel Super Mario World. It wouldn't actually but this is an example of how it can and does happen in the currently stuffed Super Mario sub-series containing all the games appropriately separated above.

Finally, my major reason for this proposal is because this is totally in line with what the wiki is already doing in regards to this subject, it's just no one ever bothered to consider the context of the games instead of what they're named. This new way only considers the names in a way that makes sense with the context in mind.

Since this might be confusing even with the three sections written out above, I'll reiterate: If you support, you're supporting the creation of a Super Mario Bros. sub-series, and a New Super Mario Bros. sub-series, which removes those respective games out of the current Super Mario sub-series into the two new sub-series respectively, leaving only the Super Mario games with one or two games at this time in the Super Mario sub-series.

Proposer: Deadline: June 14, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) A definite yes though Super Mario Bros.2 USA was originally at one point supposed to be a Mario game till Nintendo converted the original prototype to DDP and the NSMB series is a rebirth of the old 2D genre.
 * 3) Completely agree.
 * 4) This seems like it would work better. Each of the series are indeed separate... at least in my opinion.

Oppose

 * 1) - It's better to have one main series of platformers: it's simpler and more intuitive to keep all these games together, and it's better for organizing things besides History and Stats sections - namely nav templates, but also categories. Having everything together also keeps all the iconic platformers up top, rather than burying the NSMB games down below tonnes and tonnes of spinoffs. While there's clearly a New Super Mario Bros. sub-sub-series, getting that layered is not worth it for organizing pages, templates and categories, and separating them into a subseries apart from the grab-bag Super Mario games just begs the question of why not have Galaxy and 3D series, especially when the alternative is grouping them together in "series" made out of miscellaneous Super Mario games we couldn't fit into any other group, which looks horribly sloppy and is not something we want to do to the flagship games of the Mario franchise. The three games thing is arbitrary: just look at Luigi's Mansion, the baseball games, Strikes and more; no, it's far better to just not open that door at all and keep them all together. And as for leaving Super Mario Bros. 2 out of the Super Mario Bros. subseries, that's just going to confuse people who reasonably trying that a subseries that name would carry all the games that share that naming scheme; the argument that the name has no effect on how we logically present out information is plain wrong. Besides, just because SMB2 started out as Doki Doki Panic doesn't make it any less of a Mario game now: Nintendo fully embraced everything it brought to the series (Bob-Ombs, Birdo, etc.), bundled it in Super Mario All-Stars alongside the original SMB:LL and the other two Super Mario Bros. games, and included it as part of the Super Mario History booklet released with SMAS Limited Edition for the Wii, making the overall Super Mario series canon, and something we must preserve. (And speaking of SMAS, where would this game even fit according to the proposed changes? And what of the Super Mario Advance ports? And I'm only guessing that all the random SMB rehashes would fit with those games.) Changing the organization of the games forming the backbone of the series and the wiki alike is not something to do lightly: countless pages will be affected by this proposal, and allowing it to pass would be a terrible mistake.
 * 2) Per Walkazo.
 * 3) Per Walkazo.
 * 4) That's a lot of writing. Per Walkazo. Yes, I did read it all.
 * 5) Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Per Walkazo.
 * 7) Per Walkazo.
 * 8) Per Walkazo.
 * 9) Nope, except for New Super Mario Bros. the other games are parte of the Mario series. I support Walkazo.
 * 10) The list brings up more questions than answers from me; although the proposal appears to organize the games better by splitting the platformers into three categories: "Super Mario Bros." platformers (which happen to be all retro), 3D platformers (a.k.a. Super Mario taxonomical dumping ground), and New Super Mario Bros. games, I think keeping "mainstream" Mario platformers into one sub-series is a better idea. Comments below.
 * 11) – per walkazo
 * 12) Per all.

Comments
Why is SMB2 in the 3D platformer section? - 18:30, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I mention the reason above: "Super Mario Bros. 2 would go into the Super Mario series because of its original name and weak ties to Super Mario Bros. 3." Additionally, Super Mario isn't serving as a 3D platformer section. It's serving as a section for Super Mario games that don't have more than two entries like Super Mario Land does. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2014 (EDT)

@Pwwnd123: Correct. Don't forget my mention of the Mario Advance games already being a sub-series, though, so this is in line with the wiki, I believe. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm sure that they called Super Mario Bros. 3 it's name because it was a sequel to Super Mario Bros. 2 which was a sequel to Super Mario Bros., so I don't really see why it's in a different category. - 19:17, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I'm positive that they called Super Mario Bros. 3 its name because they called Super Mario USA - Super Mario Bros. 2 in America for the sake of it selling better and the American team having nothing else yet to base why the two games weren't a part of the same series sub-types the wiki uses. I already went over this though. The change has greatly to do with the fact that right now the list goes by only the names of the games, which is what you're defending, when what this makes up for is the current lack of taking into consideration the games are not tied by name alone due to the regional differences pointed out. The context of Super Mario Bros. 2 has nothing to do with any of the following or preceding Super Mario Bros. games. That's why it's called Super Mario USA originally, and is very similar to the game it's made from. As I also already pointed out, names like this ruin the flow of the context of the order the current sub-series set-up causes on History sections, which again, we created sub-sections to fix the flow. Unless something genuinely confuses you, please try to actually read all what is described in the proposal before asking. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Further, if your defense for keeping Super Mario Bros. 2 in the Super Mario Bros. sub-series section is because Super Mario Bros. 3 has its name, you automatically contradict yourself in that by that logic Super Mario World should be in the new Super Mario Bros. sub-section as well, as the Japanese name is Super Mario World: Super Mario Bros. 4, which is named as being the fourth installment. Your contradiction is casued by the fact if you think Super Mario Bros. 2 belongs in the Super Mario Bros. section, you therefor suggest Super Mario World doesn't; which with what I just explains follows your reasoning as why it would. The only difference is Super Mario World actually is related to the other Super Mario Bros. games in more than name, which aaagain, is the whole point of why its in the proposed new sub-section and Super Mario Bros. 2 isn't. I think that should clear up the points you're bringing up more validly now. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:45, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * No no you're completely wrong with SMB2.Doki Doki Panic was created from the original SMB2 prototype as for a quick deal with Fuji TV however Doki Doki Panic was converted back to the originally intentionally planned Super Mario Bros.2.So in a nutshell,Super Mario Bros.2 was first created with the intentions as a Mario game but was turned in to Yume Kojou Doki Doki Panic and released as that first before being converted back to the originally intended Mario 2 and released in America as the game we know today and released in Japan as SMUSA.Besides,Nintendo decided to take the original SMB and make it harder for the Japanese audience and release that as the original SMB2 while the original SMB 2 prototype was being transformed into DDP.Hope this made a lot of sense. - Pwwnd123
 * I think you misunderstood what I said? Regardless of what Doki Doki Panic started out as, it was released years before Super Mario Bros. 2. And actually, in regards to why Super Mario Bros. 3 is called so in Japan despite Super Mario Bros. 2 in America, I realized it's actually called 3 because Japan considers Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels to be it's 2nd game. Still backs up my original point; funnily enough! UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 21:44, 7 June 2014 (EDT)

@Walkazo: "Having everything together also keeps all the iconic platformers up top, rather than burying the NSMB games down below tonnes and tonnes of spinoffs." But as the wiki states, there is no canon. And putting it before a spin-off game is a simple matter of making it that any platformers series section goes before a spin-offs.

"And as for leaving Super Mario Bros. 2 out of the Super Mario Bros. subseries, that's just going to confuse people who reasonably trying that a subseries that name would carry all the games that share that naming scheme; the argument that the name has no effect on how we logically present out information is plain wrong." It does have an effect, but this wiki also tends to take original Japanese context ahead of things that come after. The name does have an effect, it's just that this considers the original name and the context of the game.

"Besides, just because SMB2 started out as Doki Doki Panic doesn't make it any less of a Mario game now" Then why do we separate Super Mario Land?

"And speaking of SMAS, where would this game even fit according to the proposed changes?" It could go in the Super Mario Bros. sub-series section, considering it shares most ties with that. Super Mario 64 DS already goes after or with Super Mario 64 on history sections. This is along the same lines as a remake.

"And what of the Super Mario Advance ports?" They already have their own sub-section, which I mentioned.

@UhHuhAlrightDaisy However,we will still have to include SMB2 because it is still a Mario game from the original history of development before the original prototype was turned into DDP. It makes a lot more sense and actually this SMB2 IS THE ORIGINAL SMB2 AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED BY NINTENDO and it came first history wise in development and anyways the Japanese SMB2 was developed after the original SMB2 prototype was being turned into Doki Doki Panic.It doesn't make any goddamn sense at all when you say that the SMBTLL was the original SMB2 when rightfully the original SMB2 prototype (DDP) was the original SMB2 in development history.That is why a lot of people are opposing to the proposal.Besides the development history is all what fucking matters. Sorry if I do sound a little bit pissed off. - Pwwnd123

"Changing the organization of the games forming the backbone of the series and the wiki alike is not something to do lightly" I know, but with all I pointed out, it merely goes in line with the way the sub-series already works, it just organizes it more appropriately. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 21:58, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I still stand by my proposal, but I figured I should bring some other points to you. Since you are against separating these three sections, are you then in the mindset that Super Mario Land games should be merged to it? Or how you mentioned the Super Mario Advance games, merging them to it? Heck, even the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi series? I know you can point out the differences, but I believe I pointed out that the series I'm suggesting to be separated are different in their own right. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * So how exactly do I contradict myself if I never agreed with this system in the first place? - 23:10, 7 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Organization =/= canon (it says as much in bold in Canonicity); most readers probably care more about Super Mario tiles than Mario Tennis or whatever, so it's easier for them if it's near the top; keeping everything together also makes it easier: that's the goal of the wiki - to be a reader-friendly database. The Japanese stuff doesn't actually overrule English: everything is equal, and when things conflict, we're supposed to use what makes the most sense and try to report all of the sides of the story objectively. For SMA S , I meant in Histories and with respect to the Super Mario games, not the overall "Mario (series)" page, since in practice, they work nothing like the other subseries you listed there (currently, since they're essentially ports, they're usually just listed with the parent game, which works fine imo), and your proposal didn't really address them or the random All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros.-type games, and thoroughness is very important with stuff like this. As for Super Mario Land, that was the center of a rather hairy proposal back in 2012. You can have fun reading all the big essays in the comments and on the forum posts linked to if you want to, but basically, the SMASLE booklet doesn't include them as part of the Super Mario series and doing what Nintendo does is better than making things up, and while SMB2 has been completely integrated into the Super Mario series, SML has not, at all: they're not comparable. -
 * As I said, and as that backs up what I said, you could simply make it so that the platforming games are listed before any sort've spin-off. Heck, you could even just make it so that they came before the already subbed-series like Mario & Luigi in case they didn't come out first. The order of that seems less important than how the current Super Mario grouping where most other games are just shoved in cause they're platformers or considered "main" in a canon grouping that doesn't exist. This better disregards a fan idea of canon and simply groups the games that are tied together in apparent contexts. If that's the reasoning you might as well just call it Mario platformer series. So if what a booklet is what this comes down to, did that group Super Mario Sunshine or Super Mario Galaxy or any of the New Super games with those other games? Whatever past-proposals there were, if you're going to argue that Super Mario Galaxy or Super Mario 64, even, go in the regular Super Mario series sections, so should a series like Super Mario Land, because with how I group it in the proposal, it's pointed out that those two new sections are justifiably different in terms of what follows what. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:33, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * And I didn't address a game like All Night Nippon Super Mario Bros. because as of now it wasn't listed in the Super Mario series section anyway, so whatever new section it may best apply to is simply where it would go, and would've obviously been addressed if the proposal was passed. I didn't group the games as they are currently, that's why I'm making this proposal in the first place. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Games are organized by release date since that's the most objective way to present information. The presence of a Super Mario series (which is canon, not fan theory, thanks to that booklet: one of the few times Nintendo's given us concrete organizational info to go off of besides names alone should not be ignored or diminished) allows us to keep later games up top without breaking from the release-date order, but to do so without the justification of a subseries would be nothing but value calls on our part, and we can't do that, because that is drifting into fanon territory. I.e. we don't put other platformers like Luigi's Mansion, SPP, WL or Yoshi's Island up top: they slot in where their release dates let them go. The booklet included SMB, SMB2, SMW, SMAS (wherein the SMB:LL info is covered), SM64, SMS, NSMB, SMG, NSMBWii, SMG2, SMB Deluxe, SMA, SMA2, SMA4, SM64DS, and Classic NES Series: SMB (it only goes up to 2010, hence nothing more recent); no SML, just the core Super Mario games and the remakes (besides the old, random, SMB rehashes like All Night Nippon, but we can include them because they are unarguably just alternate versions of the original game: it's not a value judgment or anything, it's bald fact). I gave reasons why SML shouldn't be part of the SM series: it's not in the booklet so Nintendo doesn't consider it part of the SM series, and there's no strong ties to the rest of the SM platformers so all that's linking it is the name and genre, and there's lots of completely unrelated "Super Mario" games (SMRPG, Super Mario Bros. & Friends: When I Grow Up, SMK), and lots of unrelated platformers (LM and whatnot). There's more reasons in the old proposal: I'm not getting into them now because I have very little time and it's very muddled and it's tangential to the main problems with the proposed changes, which I already went through at length in my vote. -
 * You still never addressed if then you think the Super Mario Advance games should be included in the Super Mario games instead of their own sub, and why they currently aren't. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Again, this is tangential to the main changes being proposed here... Anyway, I did, but I made a typo and said "SMAS" when I meant "SMA": it's the part where I said "since they're essentially ports, they're usually just listed with the parent game, which works fine imo". I also think it's good to list them with other remakes on Super Mario (series) and things like to keep things less cluttered. (Mario (series) needs an overhaul in general, so I don't even use it as a reference for anything anymore.) Of course, in all cases, it's only SMA, SMA2 and SMA4 that belong in the Super Mario series, since SMA3 is a remake of Yoshi's Island, which is not part of the series, so it's actually too general to say the SMA games as a whole are part of the Super Mario series anyway (and Nintendo backs me up here too: the booklet also omits SMA3). -

In regards to what was said I moved SMB2 into the Super Mario Bros section, even though it's obvious after Walkazo's input this isn't getting passed. lol UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:33, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * So much for me "contradicting" myself, huh? But yeh, this is probably a lost cause. You only find out if you try, though. - 21:55, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I still don't honestly think it should be, but I do get a feeling that there would've been more support votes if I dumbed the proposal down and just put it there to appease the majority. Still, voters flock when it comes down to things. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 22:56, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * @UhHuhAlrightDaisy You are already on thin ice with your SMB2 screw-ups. Pwwnd123

So, you want to split the Super Mario subseries, creating three subseries (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario, New Super Mario Bros.)? Like below?

It's likely not as you imagined it, but the table here, extracted from the Mario (series) article, would look something like this, no? Maybe you have three more rows, each with their own paragraphs and pictures? I don't know. This is just for the sake of simplicity.
 * Mario sub-series

I... I don't understand why the games in the middle belong with each other. Sunshine is a sequel to 64 and happens to be made by similar developers. Nintendo Tokyo took over for Galaxy, which is supposed to be the Super Mario game after 64, since, after all, it has a health meter, coins that heal you, an underwater meter, a variety of jumps, and Power Stars, just as the previous games. Then, Super Mario 3D Land came along, which also happens to be developed by Nintendo Tokyo, even though the gameplay is much, much different from the first four. So, it's grouped here because it's a 3D platformer, I guess?

So, it's on a 3D plane. The gameplay is drastic, but why New Super Mario Bros., a 2D platformer?

"All the games with New in the title also either have Bowser Jr. or Bowser Jr. AND the Koopalings ever since the first New Super Mario game for the DS and Wii respectively. So obviously there are elements limited to the New Super Mario Bros. games only in-line with each-other"

Bowser Jr. didn't even exist prior to Super Mario Sunshine; New Super Mario Bros. is a good opportunity to readd Bowser Jr. after Super Mario Sunshine. The Koopalings just received a revival, and they have appeared since Super Mario Bros. 3 in 2D platformers; saying New Super Mario Bros. is different from Super Mario Bros. 1, 2, 3, using these examples is a weak argument. New Super Mario Bros. does have its own style, with its recycled music and ugly art style, but the name implies it's a continuation of those 2D Mario platformer, so I'd group those New Super Mario Bros. games inside the Super Mario Bros. series.

Nintendo Tokyo's works, of course, don't have their own sub-series in the Mario (series) article either. Neither does Luigi's Mansion. It's kind of weird, really, how Luigi's Mansion doesn't have its own series entry in that article, especially when the baseball games and the Strikers game do, but maybe it can be added in the future.

Finally, this begs the question: what if there's a new Mario platformer that doesn't quite fit with those three groups, in name and gameplay? Oh, and it's developed by Nintendo Tokyo. Where would it go? Do we create a new group or do we put it in the middle because it's by Nintendo Tokyo? 22:00, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Creating Separate Pages for DIC Cartoon Characters
Right now the characters that appear in these cartoons have sections for the DIC cartoons they appear in. Some of these sections are quite large. Some would be even larger if there weren't numerous links in place guiding the users to a page of their appearances in the shows. The first point of this proposal is because there's so much information on their appearances in these cartoons, simply because as a cartoon there's a large number of varying appearances to take note of, that for example the Koopalings pages actually list each episode they appear in and describe their role in each episode right in the section on their page. That makes for sections larger than almost any other on their page. And yes a solution to this is linking to a list of their appearances, but that gets rid of a lot of info. Plus there are other reasons for this proposal.

We already create separate pages for characters appearances in the live-action film. These appearances are really no different. The setting is different, literally most of the characters have different names and different appearances, which is something that's not going to change and become established like it does in the games, the characters have different personalities, even, and with all these differences arises the need for a lot of comparison between the games that we wouldn't have to make if they just had their own pages. The Princess Daisy that appears in the film has her own page, so does the Bowser character, Iggy, and others. The way that works is, the new page is made, all info pertaining to that goes on the new page, and the page is added to the already established disambiguation lists linked at the top of the game characters pages. The cartoon characters are definitely disambiguously different from their game counterparts, it is stated on most of the cartoon pages how they are "loosely" based on everything from the game. None of this is to suggest that they aren't official, they are, that's why information for them is on the wiki in the first place. Unlike similarly based depictions of the characters outside of the games like most of the comics, the characters that appear in the cartoons have much more information to go-off of and therefore much more that distinguishes them from their game counterparts.

If you're familiar with these cartoons, you might have a nostalgic attachment to them, but that just means you already know how unique they are as far as even just the characters go. You should also know that this isn't a means to make them lesser, it's a means to give them the space they need on their own and the space they need to simply state what they are instead of compare them with every little detail to the game content they're based on. A good example might be the Baby Characters. Baby Mario is totally a form of Mario, and even though he too is a game character, there's a separate page for him because of all the different things he does. So it's not just the name or the look, though those do help, it's that it's a character on its own based on the other.

If the characters name by chance isn't different, simply putting (DIC) in the page name just as we have put (film) for the live-action characters seems good.

Proposer: Deadline: June 15, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) - See comments. Unlike the film characters, there's far less large, fundamental differences between the cartoons and games, so there's less justification for the splits. Plus, if the DIC characters are split, then the DKC cartoon characters might be said to need splitting too, and then it could snowball into splitting all the non-game media depictions of characters, plus there's ambiguity about what to do with comics that sometimes base themselves ojn the games, sometimes the cartoons, and sometimes do their own thing entirely. Seems like a rather slippery slope, and I'm leery about starting us down it.
 * 2) Per Walkazo.
 * 3) Like 'Kazo said, there aren't enough differences, and we'd get a whole bunch of "splits".
 * 4) Per Walkazo. Agreed that the differences are small and with not wanting to open Pandora's box on this one.
 * 5) This unnecessary splitting could cause unnecessary clutter. Per Walkazo.
 * 6) Deviations occur within the video game series as well. This proposal also, indirectly, advocates splitting non-video game media, which can encourage those pesky canon arguments. At least the cartoons and Super Mario-Kun had a whole lot of source material incorporated (sound effects in the show; Super Mario-Kun has game-accurate depictions of their characters; you instantly recognize them if you played the game), unlike the film, which has nary a shred of source material. To add on: it might sound like a weak argument to advocate splitting film information because the film is terrible, but the reasons (why the film needs to be split and why the film is terribe) are scarily the same; no source material.
 * 7) I'm against any splitting of the medias.
 * 8) I agree with Walkazo and Marshal Dan Troop.
 * 9) Per all.

Comments
This seems like something that would do better first as a TPP, then brought here once a precedent was set, but I digress. Likely these pages haven't been made because the sections were created at a time before making an article for every little thing was standard practice. Any editors who are familiar with the subject matter want to chime in? I'm curious if that was the case or if there was a specific reason for not splitting. -- Chris 17:38, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Gold Mario (character) is another example. But what exactly do we do with BOTH series, Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World, put them into the same page, I'm guessing? It would seem logical. The thing is with this change, Mario is still Mario, not an alternate form or human that resembles him. For this proposal to work, the Super Mario Bros. Super Show! would need its own character page created. - 17:43, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * I wanted to try a TPP, but it needs to be done for pretty much all the game characters who are in the cartoons, so I didn't know how to go about that. And Ninlevendo, yeah I think both series would pertain to these pages. Both cartoons are grouped under a DIC cartoons section on character pages right now, even sharing introductory information before separate information. And in regards to the live-action show, that ties in with the DIC cartoons, right? I figured we would just include information on the couple of live-action portrayals on the new (DIC) character's pages. Unless they too are very unique portrayals on their own with enough info to warrant their own pages as well?
 * I believe the reason we never created separate character pages for Mario and Luigi for the film was because unlike Princess Daisy and Bowser and others character's in the film, they didn't differ as much as these characters and as a film, a poor film even, there wasn't much to say in the way of them like there is the cartoon characters. If the live-portrayals for Super Mario Bros Super Show don't have as much to separate them, it could be appropriate to include that info on the DIC cartoon character pages proposed, right?UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 18:09, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * @Ghost Jam: This proposal from 2009 resulted in the film characters being split, after an earlier proposal just about Daisy, which was removed and never properly archived; the decision was reaffirmed by this 2012 proposal. The argument was that (some of) the film characters were so different from the ones in the games, it would be easier to just treat them as separate characters. Eventually, all the other characters got split, although I don't think that was done by a Proposal: it was just done and no one protested, maybe because it was being consistent with the film characters that did have pages. While there are tonnes of differences between the film and the games (Iggy is Koopa's idiot cousin not his nerdy kid; Daisy is the princess of the "mushroom kingdom", Dinohatten; Big Bertha is a bouncer, not a fish; Toad is a delinquent busker), I feel like there's a lot more similarity between the games and cartoons (Toadstool is still the princess; Koopa is still an evil king with seven kids; the Mushroom Kingdom is the setting...), and most of the differences aren't as radical as the film (i.e. Toadstool and Bowsers' different designs are based on the game sprites; Mario & Luigi's origin story is the same as early games, before Yoshi's Island, etc.), so it's a lot harder to justify splitting them. The fact that the comics borrow from both game-like and cartoon-like designs and portrayals further muddles the two, and if this passes, it could snowball into wanting to split things like the Donkey Kong Country cartoon characters, the offbeat Super Mario-Kun portrayals, and then maybe all comic and alternate media appearances, and this way of thinking has been strongly discouraged as a way of organizing the wiki in the past, one reason being that it makes it look like different medias are held as being more-or-less important or canon by the wiki, which isn't true. (I'm not even comfortable with the fact that everyone's hatred of the film is part of why those characters got separated in the first place, but ah well.) -
 * But I did point out that one of the major reasons is because of the vast amount of content to be said with their cartoon appearances. And Bowser actually doesn't have seven kids any longer. The koopalings designs are also vastly different. Some of the same character traits apply to the major characters, but with their appearances in numerous episodes, again, there's a lot to say in the way of the cartoon characters that doesn't apply to the game characters. So there's a lot that could be included on separate pages for them that right now you can't include everything, but there's still too much info for a lot of the characters to be put into a measly section for them. Also, I thought one of the cartoons took place in Dinosaurland? With cavemen and everything. I also did mention how there simply isn't as much to say about comic appearances in comparison to the amount there is with the cartoons in regards to what can be grouped together, so just because this proposes separate pages for the cartoon characters, doesn't mean it would be enough to justify separate pages for any other non-game media appearance. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:21, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * Also with your comment on being uncomfortable with people's feelings towards the film and them being separated already, I think you might be letting your feelings get in the way of how this could actually be a good thing for the information we provide on the cartoons. Again, part of the reason of this proposal is to provide a better more appropriate space to provide information on the characters as they appear in the cartoon. Bowser's page is a good example of how there just isn't a good outcome to keeping every form of the character on one page.UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

re huge sections: Sizable, episode-by-episode summaries on character articles are "supposed" to go on separate pages (like this). The format hasn't caught on, but there's no there couldn't be a push to make the format viable. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:05, 8 June 2014 (EDT)
 * The very opening of my proposal addresses that, so this has already been covered by me, even.UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 22:50, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * Yeah, someone should make a Collab about that someday... Anyway, @FD09: Bowser has seven kids in the games back then (and their looks aren't "vastly" different, not like, say Iggy and Iggy (film character)), so that's a moot point, and SMW the game is set in Dinosaur Land which is where SMW the show gets its prehistoric setting, so again, your argument falls flat. Actually, Super Mario-Kun is even more extensive as the cartoons, but I digress. Even if the floodgates of splits doesn't open, separating out the cartoon information orphans the print media stuff that's based on the cartoon depictions - unless that stuff gets moved too, but then it's not just "DIC" or even "cartoon" anymore, and there's comic stuff on both sets of pages, and just getting messy. Also, my comment on people hating the film was in direct response to your earlier "a poor film even" aside; even though I do like the film, that didn't stop me from objectively voting in favour of those splits then and it has nothing to do with my vote now. I don't even have "nostalgic attachment" to the cartoons (I never watched them as a kid or even as a teen), so rest assured, my vote is purely from a wiki organizational perspective. -
 * When the lead actor's biggest regret in life is the film and it is generally panned, it's easily described as poor without much personal opinion involved, but that's whatever. We don't have that much info on Super Mario-Kun, though, do we? Nowhere near as much as the cartoons. I genuinely thought I'd kill two birds with one stone with this proposal, providing a better space for the cartoon depictions and one that could allow for all the info it has, on top of making the original characters pages less stuffed up and filled with constant comparisons of the never-ending differences between depictions, but if the concern that it lessons its importance is your biggest reason, I think you're overlooking those plus-sides in favor of something less important when it comes to providing information on everything. And I hardly think my argument falls flat just because the setting shares its name. That's the same as how I pointed out that even though some of the characters names might not differ, the depiction itself does. And it's not the same thing as how settings in the games warp appearance, it's obviously a new world with the same name in the cartoon. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 23:07, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

"The very opening of my proposal addresses that, so this has already been covered by me, even"

I don't see how describing the by-episode appearances on a separate page is "losing info", though..? --Glowsquid (talk) 23:15, 8 June 2014 (EDT)


 * @FD09: (We actually have lots of Super Mario-Kun info, it's just untranslated, but that's another story.) I only meant your specific "cartoon's dinosaurland setting =/= games" argument doesn't work because the general setting is from the games, and while it's not exactly the same (i.e. it's called "Dinosaur World" in the show), neither are the settings simply going from game to game, so that's not a strong argument either. Practically every new title gives us a new version of the Mushroom Kingdom, for example, and sometimes it's called the "Mushroom World" instead, but is still the same place (or it's the kingdom and its neighbours, for added inconsistency). Bowser's Castle is also constantly changing, and Peach's Castle, and Toad Town, and every other place that appears more than once: with the Mario series, you really can't sweat the details: the film had radically different points, but the cartoons don't. That's my biggest point - that and the "setting a dangerous precedent" point: I'm not saying we'll lessen the importance of alternate media through splits, just that readers might read too much into divisions by media and think we are, which is different and more of a side-note. -

Well I just created the list of episodes for each of the cartoons for Lemmy Koopa. I didn't know to call them list of episodes featuring Lemmy Koopa or Hip Koopa, so right now it's Lemmy Koopa. On top of that I realized there's a separate page for the Super Mario World cartoon then the game, which if you think about it is the exact same thing as creating a different page for the character. UhHuhAlrightDaisy (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2014 (EDT)
 * It's not the same at all: they're different physical (i.e. IRL) things. The characters being the same or different is arguable, but a game is not a cartoon, and RL matters of distinction are not comparable to in-universe stuff like this. Very good point about the Lemmy vs. Hip thing, however. I think the cartoon name should be used for the cartoon info, like how we have King Koopa's alter egos, not "Bowser's alter egos", and (are supposed to) call Peach "Toadstool" in cartoon sections and pages. - 02:43, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Miscellaneous
None at the moment.