Talk:Bubble Dayzee

Is the name...

Is the name Bubble Dayzee official or conjectural? If official, what is the source? -- Son of Suns

TMK, I couldn't find any other sources.
- Yoshi Master

I'm sure they were called Bubble Dayzees (they might have spelled it "Daisy," but I don't remember) in the Yoshi's Island player's guide. - Batsy

Not sure about the English guide, but the German strategy guide doesn't list them as seperate enemies at all. Then again, it also doesn't list the Gargantua Blargg (it only lists the small variation & Nep-Enut), so they may just have forgotten about them.--vellidragon 10:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)

Reconsider?

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As a discussion about the Red Coin variant of the Bandit is running, i'd like to open this as well. Shall we reconsider it, and merge to the actual page? -- FanOfYoshi 12:40, January 28, 2020 (EST)

I'd support that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:23, January 28, 2020 (EST)

I also do, hence why i opened this discussion. -- FanOfYoshi 13:00, January 30, 2020 (EST)

Merge to Crazy Daisy

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Current time: Friday, April 19, 2024, 12:09 GMT

I'm pretty much aware that this page has been split for quite a lot longer than i thought, and is only split because of the separate entry it was given on the English guide. The Japanese version doesn't even difference them. ALthough, unlike the two other colors, this one behaves differently instead of being an aesthetic change, it's like the Koopas, but only one has a behavioral difference. The only reason it was kept split as well is because of a separate filename, so did the Red Coin variant of the Bandit. Now that it's merged, let's get to this.

Proposer: FanOfYoshi (talk)
Deadline: March, 16, 2020 23:59 GMT

Support

1. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Another important detail is that in SPM, the Dayzee "song" is redesigned to look like a bubble iirc, which along with the color ties them together further. Them appearing in YNI with no official guide differentiating them (despite certain Boo Guys getting official differentiation at that point) is further notable. The only differentiation they get here is in filenames, which as with the case of the Bandits, is dimply a way to avoid getting metaphorical wires crossed in coding. EDIT: OK, not as much as I thought on the SPM thing, probably confused it with Cherbil, though my belief on this still stands. Note that I withheld from making it as I consider it able to go both ways, but I'll agree regardless.
3. Niiue (talk) Per all.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per myself and Doc in the comments, which I will summarize here: Bubble Dayzee is officially and currently considered a color variant, and the Nintendo Power source with a unique profile also has many unnecessary names altogether (e.g. Submarine Nep-Enut), some of which are erroneous (e.g. Blue Boo). Additionally, like Bandit having Coin Bandit's palette and trait in the Paper Mario series, it seems very deliberate that Crazee Dayzee is modeled after Bubble Dayzee's palette.

Oppose

1. TheDarkStar (talk) - They have a different English name, a different appearance, and behave differently, so this should stay split.
2. MikhailMCraft (talk) - Per TheDarkStar.
3. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) - What... This is like merging Bullet Bill and Bouncing Bullet Bill, just because "they're like Koopas". Per both.
4. Alex95 (talk) - Per TheDarkStar.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. I have to say the extent that variant mergers are starting to go to is getting concerning.
6. Power Flotzo (talk) - Per all.
7. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per all.
8. Lord Grammaticus (talk) - Per TheDarkStar in particular.
9. Trig Jegman (talk) - This is an english focused wiki and if the english names are different on top of being entirely different things then it's safe to keep them split. Per Waluigi Time, I think the merges are becoming excessive.

Comments

@DarkStar No, they don't have a "different appearance," the PM Crazee Dayzees use their appearance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:35, March 2, 2020 (EST)

They still behave differently and have a different name. MikhailMCraft (talk • contribs) 11:37, March 2, 2020 (EST)

"Behave differently", that's like Koopas. And different name, in English only. -- FanOfYoshi 13:04, March 2, 2020 (EST)

Also, TheDarkStar, look different, so did both Koopa variants. -- FanOfYoshi 13:05, March 2, 2020 (EST)

"They behave differently" is not valid. Crazee Dayzees in SMW2 and PM also behave differently from each other. In no non-PM game can Dayzees put you to sleep. Now, be that as it may, this is far less sturdy than the things I try to merge, which is partially why I didn't propose it. However, it is very much worth saying that the YNI guidebook didn't split this but did split Bouncing Bullet Bill. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:48, March 2, 2020 (EST)

I don't know why you're using behavioral differences between games in completely different genres as an argument. PM has other stuff like headbonking Goombas, Pokeys that fling their body parts to attack, and Dry Bones that are weak to fire that you generally don't see in the platformers. The fact that Crazee Dayzees can induce sleep in that series is irrelevant. 03:41, March 3, 2020 (EST)

@Obsessive Mario Fan, "It's like merging the bouncy variant of Bullet Bill to the original page" is not a valid argument, as unlike that, the Panji-san (Panzy-san) did not receive a separate Japanese name in Yoshi's New Island. -- FanOfYoshi 02:06, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Waluigi Time, you mean like splitting variants of Koopas, which aren't much separate, right? -- FanOfYoshi 02:19, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Don't put words in my mouth. This situation in my opinion is starting to get out of hand. Merging color variants, fine. Merging behavioral differences that appear identical to their base form (i.e. Chargin' Chuck variants), sure. In this case, this is an enemy with a different appearance, behavior, and name - and I don't want to hear anything about "but they have the same Japanese name", I've said time and time again for years in proposals like this that perfectly valid English info should not be thrown out and treated as less important when this is, after all, an English wiki. If all three of those factors aren't enough to warrant a split, how does an enemy variant even get its own article at that point? And sure, Bubble Dayzees have almost the same coloration as ordinary TTYD and SPM's Crazee Dayzees, but to quote the frequently used argument, "those are different series made by different developers". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:21, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Different developers who apparently considered them to be the same thing. The devs of SMW2 considered them the same. The translator considered them different, but again, my Short Fuse/Seedy Sally/Hopping Tap-Tap/Submarine Nep-Enut/Blue Boo argument. The only guide to split Bubble Dayzee split those as well. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:16, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Not really sure what which guide it comes from has to do with it. It would be silly to treat any guide as an "all or nothing" deal (Encyclopedia excluded for obvious reasons). In this case though, the last two obviously shouldn't be split since they don't even really exist. Seedy Sally and Short Fuse are visually identical to Ukiki. Hopping Tap-Tap, as far as I'm aware, is a behavioral variant only, and is comparable to SMB2 Ninjis in that aspect. None of those examples have all the differences that I believe warrants keeping Bubble Dayzee split. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:32, March 3, 2020 (EST)

The only "visual difference" here is a palette swap, no new graphics for the plant itself are unique to it. But all right then. I just don't think there's enough differences to warrant concern over some wanting it merged, at any rate. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:38, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Palette swap or not, it's still a visual difference, and although that's normally not enough for a split by itself, it's all those characteristics together that makes me feel these should stay split. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:42, March 3, 2020 (EST)

Additional note that should have been in the header: the only source to split these is also the source that split "Short Fuse" and "Seedy Sally" from "Grinder" (or Ukiki), something we additionally no longer recognize. It also split "Hopping Tap-Tap" (which we never recognized), "Submarine Nep-Enut" (which isn't different from Nep at all), "Blue Boo" (which is no different from Boo Balloon at all either), and other such things. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:51, March 3, 2020 (EST)

It also splits the Red Coin Bandit as well, which we had split until now. -- FanOfYoshi 06:51, March 3, 2020 (EST)

I'd actually be for re-splitting the coin bandit, because it A. behaves differently, B. looks different from its parent species, and C. has a different English name. TheDarkStar 11:38, March 3, 2020 (EST)

It only "looks different" because of its palette, and the different behavior is a part of that. Either way, the PM Bandit enemies were clearly intended to be the same as Coin Bandits, and while those were both made by different companies, both companies that developed the respective games clearly considered them the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:16, March 3, 2020 (EST)

The bubble-spitting Crazies also "only look different" because of their palette. Anyways, since Yoshi's New Island excluded the yellow (the textures are still in the codes, but could be unintentional, since Relay Heyhos also have the "Oh, no, no, no, no", and sad textures, but aren't used in game anyways) ones, wether it was intentional or not, there are now 2, who both behave differently. -- FanOfYoshi 11:13, March 4, 2020 (EST)

“Palette swap or not, it's still a visual difference.”

—Waluigi Time

TheDarkStar 11:22, March 4, 2020 (EST)

So? Different color does not mean a split? -- FanOfYoshi 11:24, March 4, 2020 (EST)

Different color doesn't mean a split by itself, but that's not the only unique trait displayed by Bubble Dayzees. You can't view stuff like this in a vacuum. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:43, March 4, 2020 (EST)

No more different than the unique blue Beach Koopas in SMW. While these have a different name in exactly one source, those actually have a different sprite. There's also the case of Solo Toady and Green Toady, which you yourself voted to keep merged. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:51, March 4, 2020 (EST)

To be completely honest I still say those Toadies should be merged. Maybe this is flimsy logic, but name is kind of where I draw the line on color variants. The only distinguishing identifier from Solo Toady is "Green", which... yeah, I think you get the idea. Same applies to the Beach Koopas, if "Blue Beach Koopa/Koopa without a Shell" is even used as an official name anywhere. If Bubble Dayzee was called "Purple Dayzee" or something, I'd be more likely to support a merge. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:19, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Admittedly, some support has pointed out that this case is not as strong as Coin Bandit, as it turns out that the bubble features are not included in the Paper Mario series (although a similar color palette is still given to the normal Crazee Dayzee). However, I want to make something perfectly understood to the opposition: regardless of how you feel about merging, Bubble Dayzee is also technically a color variant of Crazee Dayzee. This isn't an isolated incident either, but something that is constantly true of the official Shogakukan guidebooks for all three appearances. One translation is presented within the article, but for context, these are the full quotes.

「白と黄色のパソジーさんは、口笛を吹きながらスキップをしているだけ。紫のパソジーさんは、シャボン玉を吹いている。これに当たるとはじかれるが、食べればシャボン玉を吹けるようになる。」 (The white- and yellow-colored Pansy Sans whistle as they merely skip along. The purple Pansy Sans blow soap bubbles. These cause bouncing when hit, but eating them will allow soap bubbles to be blown.) - 「スーパーマリオヨッシーアイランド任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Super Mario: Yossy Island Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 5.

「白と黄色のものは、口笛をふきながらスキップしているだけ。紫のパンジーさんがふくシャボン玉を食べると、ジャボン玉がふける。」 (The white- and yellow-colored ones whistle and merely skip along. The purple Pansy Sans blow soap bubbles which if eaten, allow soap bubbles to be blown.) - 「スーパーマリオアドバンス3任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Super Mario Advance 3 Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 19.

「花のような敵で、ゆっくりと地上を歩く。中には、泡を吐き出してくるものもいる。正面から泡に触れると後方に押し戻されるが、ダメージは受けない。」 (Flower-like enemies that slowly walk on the ground. Some of them spit bubbles. Touching a bubble head-on pushes back but does not inflict damage.) - 「ヨッシー New アイランド 任天堂公式ガイドブック」 (Yoshi's New Island Nintendo Kōshiki Guidebook), page 23.

Notably, the GBA description was rewritten from the SFC description, and the 3DS description again refers to it as basically one and the same within the same guide that gave a separate identity to Bouncing Bullet Bill. This is more than a Japanese name being the same: these are sources directly telling us, in no uncertain terms, that it is a color variant. At this point, this is really asking for a continued exception to our general treatment of color variants. As such, I urge all opposers to please engage in a simple exercise: imagine that you are arguing against the developers, not the proposal's support. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:29, March 5, 2020 (EST)

I'd rather not toss away the English name just because Japanese media refers to them with only a color identifier. Bull's-Eye Bill used to be the same way, and we agreed not to merge the earlier iterations with Bullet Bill. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:19, March 5, 2020 (EST)

You've mentioned that before, but realistically, that won't happen in a merge. Bubble Dayzee's name would be only be "thrown out" as its own article title; it will still be treated as "perfectly valid English info" where applicable. Think here where Coin Bandit, Seedy Sally and Short Fuse are listed, or here where both Big Bertha and Boss Bass are listed. This isn't just some "Japanese media," but also constant and importantly current information, and segregating details like that (e.g. "it's a color variant in that region, but not this region") comes across as lazy. You said it yourself, "Merging color variants, fine." LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:44, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Search Killer is not comparable, as this one has an incarnation, that is possibly based on previous ones where it was the same as Bullet Bill, and Bubble Crazies have never gotten that distinction. -- FanOfYoshi 12:56, March 5, 2020 (EST)

To clarify, when I say "toss away" I don't mean not acknowledging the information at all, I just mean passing over perfectly valid English info in favor of Japanese info to justify splits/merges like this. As for that quote, that doesn't apply here because I personally don't consider Bubble Dayzee a color variant - I was clearly saying that in defense of keeping Bubble Dayzee and other comparable entities split anyway. My definition of color variant is a palette swap of an enemy, potentially with behavioral differences i.e. Koopa Troopas, that either does not have a unique name from the original enemy (if Bubble Dayzee's official name was Crazee Dayzee with no distinction) or the only name distinction is the color itself (if Bubble Dayzee was just named Purple Crazee Dayzee or something). Bubble Dayzee does not fit either of these definitions and as a result I think it would be better split. The distinction wasn't made in Japan, but it was made for the English localization and that's what matters to me. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:53, March 5, 2020 (EST)

Thing is though, none of the other "palette/behavioral swap that was separated only in English by that guide and appeared again in a later game" enemies have kept their "split in English" status other than Bouncing Bullet Bill, which became split in Japanese, and Bowling Goonie, which due to the flightless normal and skeletal versions being split is a bit more complicated. If anything, merging these would be the most consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:17, March 5, 2020 (EST)

With all due respect, it doesn't matter how you or I "personally" rationalize it: no one gets to redefine a color variant from multiple/current official sources. I also highly doubt Bubble Dayzee would've even been kept separately if Yoshi's New Island received a modern English guide given how older localizations like Flopsy Fish, Boo Man Bluff, Dizzy Dandy, etc. get discarded over time. Dated guides are not infallible. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:09, March 5, 2020 (EST)