Talk:Big Kyutyan

Rapheal the Raven?
It looks like Rapheal, the same size. REALLY! 98.177.160.223 19:46, 11 April 2014 (EDT)

Should it be merge?

Name
For reference, the Shogakukan guide does not give this enemy a unique name from normal Ravens, even when it's highlighted in World 5-7 on page 233. However, the game has a handful of internal filenames in G:content0.game/romfs/param/enemy - namely kyutyan_a_big.csv, kyutyan_b_big.csv, kyutyan_c_big.csv & kyutyan_s_big.csv - that suggest the name "Big Kyūchan". LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:33, 24 December 2017 (EST)
 * That sounds familiar... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:11, 25 December 2017 (EST)
 * Given there's only one, the internal name matches Raphael's Japanese name, there are other boss-like minor unique enemies, and the fact that in Japanese, these are less "characters" and more "generic members of the species that have been magically enlarged," I wouldn't be too opposed to merging this with Raphael's article. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:48, 8 February 2018 (EST)
 * Maybe it was described on the generic Raven's description on the manual? I asked to LinkTheLefty. 13:47, 1 September 2018 (EDT)
 * Accordingly, it doesn't describe the Giant Raven at all. LinkTheLefty told me that it didn't describe it... -- 07:43, 3 September 2018 (EDT)
 * This one acts just like a non-altered raven. It pops when you step on it. Then maybe on Raven page? -- 11:27, 26 September 2018 (EDT)
 * It may be a coincidence, Nintendo didn't intend this Raven to be Raphael. -- 06:33, 30 September 2018 (EDT)
 * You may start a proposal to give my opinion. -- 12:18, 1 October 2018 (EDT)

Merge Giant Raven with Raphael the Raven
I don't think that they're intended to be the same thing, and seem to be just coincidental.

Proposer: Deadline: November 5, 2018, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) There is only one of them in the game, internal data contains evidence of Raphael the Raven's Japanese name, and merging mitigates the use of conjecture tag. Considering it's a direct sequel, I'm sure the reference is intended.
 * 2) Literally the only information we have indicates that they're the same. Besides, as I've noted before, in Japan, the bosses aren't characters, just random schlubs Kamek embiggerationalizes. I'd have supported the second this proposal was made had I known. File name, the fact that there's one, other enemy "bosses" existing....
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) Per. + Tetris Attack considered all of them as character, and it doesn't only consists of American  developpers, but also Japanese developpers. Paper Mario may be an exception, but all bosses are considered as characters in Tetris Attack.
 * 2) Clearly different enough to warrant separate articles. You sure you want to start a proposal that you oppose? There are still big enough differences, such as how Raphael can't be defeated with eggs or direct ground pounds, unlike this Raven, or how Raphael also creates star-shaped shockwaves, something also not present in this Raven.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) Per all.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
If anything else, why should we merge them? It appears to be a coincidence, and it deserves it own article. -- 07:05, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * @Toadette, yes, sometimes the proposer is opposed.-- 08:05, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * @Link, for you, they're both big, and i still consider bosses as characters. The Giant Raven walks like a normal Raven, while Raphael walks much more agressively and he bounces you. And the Giant Raven seems to be already big. -- 08:23, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Boss-to-enemy having different behavior? So what? Behaviors aren't always consistent, even for within the Yoshi franchise. And your other reason requires usage of the word "seem." How about the fact that the file name literally spells out that it's Big Kyutan? Remember, Raph ain't a character in JP YI. And through this spelling out, shows that without a shadow of a doubt it cannot be "coincidence." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * So what so what? All of the enemies you mentioned in your vote aren't even considered bosses; only the enemies faced at the ends of forts and castles are considered bosses. I don't doubt that the resemblance isn't a coincidence, but as it stands, it appears to just be a resemblance and not Raphael himself. The internal filename is a start, but is there any more evidence that can be used to determine that this Raven is indeed Raphael? 20:35, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Both Big Boo and Wiggler have been bosses in various platform games with vastly different behaviors on all accounts, hence why I linked to only them in that statement o.o . The following statement is to show that using "within series" as justification regarding behavior differences won't work either. And once again, "Raphael" is a Woolseyism; it's just a big Raven. Not an individual outside of Paper Mario. Just like how Prince Froggy isn't given a slightest hint of differentiation from Frog Pirate in Japanese. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Raphael is treated as an individual in the games he appears in. Also, under this, you're essentially saying that Frog Pirate should be merged with Prince Froggy. See where I'm going with this? 20:52, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Puttin' words in my mouth, there. When given various roles in the same game, differing articles they do indeed receive. This does not extend to differing roles in different games. And the file name is actual evidence from the game itself. And there's no substantial evidence on the contrary other than "well, I don't think so, because..." See where I'm going with this? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * That doesn't answer anything. Keep in mind that internal filenames can't be 100% reliable as they're sometimes just random names given to assets so that the developers have a better idea of what is being referred to. They can't be treated as in-game if they appear in the code, but not in the actual game. Also, what about other cases like Boss Sumo Bro? 21:10, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Seems to be another enlarged generic, just translated more faithfully. Heck, technically, Petey Piranha's an enlarged generic, just from a bizarre off-model game of a bygone era who has since become far more distinct. Anyways, I have no problems with enlarged generics getting their own articles, it's just that if the only written evidence there is implies that the large creature is either the same enlarged generic from before or a being of the same nature, they should share an article. And remember, even though Petey's definitely a character now, Daisy Garden shows two of him at once.... Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * Also, Raphael the Raven has different names from regular Ravens in all languages (maybe except German, but that's it), even Japanese. 21:14, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * And note that in the original it's just "Big Kyu-chan/Kyutan" in Japanese. Big Raven. Not a character, just an enlarged dude. You seem to be misunderstanding my goal here; I in no way want regular Ravens merged with Raphael. That's silly. Even if we were basing off of Japanese names, I'd prefer the frog to be "Gerogero (boss)," since it has a different function from the other entities of the same name within the same game. My thoughts on this plus-sized Raven situation is to do basically what the Wiggler page does regarding what's treated as the main variation of the creature of that name in each game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (EDT)
 * In Tetris Attack, they were all treated as characters, and in Paper Mario, Raphael is a character because he needs to be helped. -- 03:36, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
 * And that is an American-branded game due to being a reskin of Panel de Pon, and as such is working with the Woolseyisms, not the original intent. I mentioned Paper Mario being the exception there, but even then, his behavior is outright incompatible with the Yoshi boss, so defining them both as a singular "character" would be dubious at best. They're Big Ravens, the original of which was given the name of Raphael in translation, and further ones kept that name. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:42, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
 * For information, the creators of the game consisted of more Japanese people than American people. :O -- 03:45, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
 * And how many of those are not just the developers of the original game, Panel de Pon? It wouldn't need to be re-developed, just reskinned. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:21, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
 * + The Giant Raven's behavior is drastically different from Raphael's behavior in this game. -- 06:29, 25 October 2018 (EDT)
 * I've already covered that above. Don't make arguments that have already been covered. Ukiki went from a many-behaviored maniac in SMW2 to a harmless coward in YIDS. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 06:53, 25 October 2018 (EDT)

Given the file name says this is the same as Raphael, and unlike Bat (Super Mario Galaxy), Morty Mole, and Magmaargh, there are no sources that contradict it at all, saying that they're different is technically speculation. If this fails, the page will be moved to Big Kyu-Tan (or some variation thereof) anyways, which is Raphael's Japanese name. While I don't like file names to be sources for page names, here, this is the only source there is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2018 (EDT)

Merge this article with Raphael the Raven (again)
Ok, so last time i opposed the proposal, which has been a mistake. We should fix a glaring mistake that has been since we found out what was the internal filename. Unlike cases, including Bat (Super Mario Galaxy), Morty Mole and Magmaargh, there are no guide that contradicts the internal filename. If this page gets merged, we'll avoid the another language template. The article could be turned into a redirect or something. Also, attacks are a moot point. Enemies always have different attacks. Its appearance in this game is a cameo, and in the original country, in Japan, the bosses are not considered as characters.

Proposer: Deadline: February 18, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to February 25, 2019, 23:59 GMT  Extended to March 4, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 11, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Per proposal.
 * 3) Per my thoughts last time. The only source we have insinuates they're the same, and he isn't in the guide at all. Also, he's only an individual "character" in Paper Mario. In SMW2, he's just a generic Raven that's been enlarged (same species-dependent situation as most other bosses in that game).
 * 4) We don't split Mario Party 4's "Big Slimes" from Salvo the Slime, I don't see a reason to split this. There's only one in the game and its appearance is clearly referencing Raphael's fight from SMW2. Since Raphael in Japan was just a "Big Raven" to begin with, this is just another Big Boo scenario.
 * 5) Per proposal. These two "characters" are one and the same.
 * 6) Per proposal.
 * 7) I see no reason to not treat these two as the same. It's not like it's a King Boo from Mario Sunshine thing where the character looks or behaves any differently.
 * 8) Per proposal.
 * 9) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) "But the two have the same Japanese names" is too weak of an argument to use by itself. Plus, there's no other solid evidence proving that they are indeed the same thing. Just state that it bears a strong resemblance to Raphael and call it a day. Also, I think we should split Big Slime for the fact that they're even less similar to Salvo the Slime than this Raven is to Raphael.
 * 2) Per Toadette the Achiever.
 * 3) Per Toadette the Achiever.
 * 4) Per Toadette the Achiever.
 * 5) Per Toadette the Achiever.
 * 6) Per all.

Comments
It is said that the guide doesn't give an unique name, but was it mentioned, as simply "Kyutyan" or no mention at all? -- 05:43, 4 February 2019 (EST)

I think we should maybe consider emailing a Nintendo of America representative if this proposal goes nowhere, same as the one above. 11:18, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * The internal filename is the only proof we have for this merge. -- 13:13, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * Also, attacks always change in a return. I don't have more arguments, but i think Doc von Schmeltwick still has some. -- 13:17, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * The internal file name acts as proof for a merge. Literally nothing acts as proof to keep split. Kamek acted as a generic enemy in both SMW2 and in YNI, and is a recurring boss in the latter. There are other enemy/boss entities in both games as well. And once again, "Raphael" being treated as a "character" in SMW2 is entirely the work of the over-the-top Woolseyisms the translators gave (for instance, "Hootie the Blue Fish" and calling the underwater Cheep Cheep "Piscatory Pete"). In the language of origin, it's just a rando Raven that's been enlarged. This is also why "Prince Froggy"'s JP name is the same as Pirate Frog's. Because that's what it is, just an enemy-boss differentiation from within the same game. Enemy-boss differentiations from between games, however, don't matter. See the Wiggler and Big Boo pages, for examples. Additionally, NoA have been known for recently using us as a source, so that would more than likely be a pointless endeavor. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:22, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * You mean these examples? Yeah, admittedly, the English names we're recently taken from this wiki. -- 13:29, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * Mainly these ones, as they're among the most blatant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:40, 4 February 2019 (EST)
 * The proposal failed because i opposed my own proposal. I waited to get more proofs on it to support it. -- 13:17, 5 February 2019 (EST)
 * @7feetunder thank you for the support! Anyways, "Block Slime" and "Big Kachikachi Special" first appear in the same game where Salvo the Slime Tap-Tap the Red Nose appear. -- 10:54, 6 February 2019 (EST)
 * I actually hesitate between splitting "Big Slime" or leaving it with Salvo. And for the Raven, as i said, i waited more evidences to come out to agree that it is one and the same. It cannot be coincidence. @_@ -- 02:26, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * Why would that be split? Once again, it's not a character except for in MPA, where nearly everything is a character in the overworld. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:42, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * Also, i wouldn't recommand a counterproposal to split off this Raven once again if it passes, and neither if it's to split Big Slime from Salvo the Slime. -- 02:47, 7 February 2019 (EST)

@Toadette: I have no idea what Spike Koopa has to do with anything, but regardless, I feel like Big Kyutyan and Mega Kantera should have the same treatment. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:03, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * I was referring to 7feetunder's vote, in which he mentions Big Slimes. 09:07, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * Spike Koopa doesn't correspond to any established subject, whereas for Big Slime, the names match up and the Mario Party series has been known to duplicate boss characters that are usually depicted as singular entities such as King Bob-ombs. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty, Mega Kantera is an entirely different case. It was likely coincidental, as the only reason it was big is because its inspiration was the Mega Guy. Also the case for Tetu Kantera. It was originally lumped with Big Lantern Ghost due to being thought it the same thing, and us not having a Japanese name at the time. It's not even a callback unlike Giant Raven. I'm pretty sure that its internal filename is a romanization of its Japanese name (correct me if i'm wrong) "Mega Kantera". -- 09:09, 7 February 2019 (EST)
 * This is why i proposed to split both. It seems to be a similar case to the Ice Snifits more than the Raven. -- 05:44, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * And, i mentioned in this proposal that in the previous proposal, the oppose of my own proposal was a mistake. -- 11:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)
 * Last time, Doc von Schmeltwick convinced me that they are the same by more evidences than just the Japanese name. -- 08:27, 10 February 2019 (EST)
 * If no one votes anymore, it is sure that this proposal would end in a tie, as the two option have equal votes. -- 05:44, 11 February 2019 (EST) Nevermind, Bwburke64 voted. -- 13:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)
 * Should i extend my proposal afterwards if no one votes anymore, as it can only pass or fail by a margin of 3? As i previously pointed out, my oppose on the previous proposal was a mistake, and saying they're separate is definitely speculative. -- 06:50, 13 February 2019 (EST)
 * No. Rule 10 only applies to proposals with more than ten votes. If no one else votes, this will pass. 03:02, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * @LinkTheLefty, i think i misunderstood your comment when you said that you felt that this and Mega Kantera should have the same treatment. Do you mean that they both should stay split or that they should be merged to their respective page, Raphael the Raven and Big Lantern Ghost? I agree for the Raven, but like i said, i strongly disapprove that Mega Kantera be merged with Big Lantern Ghost as it is coincidental, unlike the Raven. -- 02:14, 14 February 2019 (EST)
 * All of the opposition (including Toadette the Achiever and Chester Alan Arthur), regarding speculation, there is a difference between speculation an inreference. It is a direct reference, and thus, should be merged. -- 03:06, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * Well, it has more than 10 votes now. I think it will be extended. -- 06:38, 18 February 2019 (EST)
 * Big Kyutyan is usable by itself. -- 07:49, 20 February 2019 (EST)
 * Much oppositions would complicate such a merge... -- 09:22, 21 February 2019 (EST)
 * @GrainedCargo192, you usually relly on creator's intent. Not the wiki's mistake. -- 01:46, 25 February 2019 (EST)
 * Why is that comment directed at him specifically? It's a "per" vote. 02:28, 25 February 2019 (EST)
 * Because he specifically usually goes for creator's intent, it seems. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:32, 25 February 2019 (EST)
 * Yeah, definitely. And i wonder why he opposed while it is clearly Raphael the Raven. -- 08:43, 25 February 2019 (EST)
 * It would appear he disagrees with that
 * Yeah, and should we ask him why did he oppose? -- 13:10, 26 February 2019 (EST)
 * What's the difference between saying "Per all" and "Per Toadette the Achiever" like everyone else has been doing? Obviously he thinks Toadette's reasoning is solid and that's why he chose to oppose this. -- 10:31, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * I don't think that the point is solid enough. -- 15:10, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * Nor do I, particularly as Spike Koopas aren't a relateable situation whatsoever. "Well it could be different!" when the only evidence we have points to them being the same is not a good point to make. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:16, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * I don't know what Spike Koopa has to do with this either. -- 15:29, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * Big Slimes are likely a callback to Salvo the Slime itself. I hope you will not launch a counterproposal. -- 15:50, 28 February 2019 (EST)
 * I very much doubt that. 21:41, 3 March 2019 (EST)
 * Why though? In a game full of obtuse references to the classic games (including SMW2), why would the things that look just like this boss and have its original name possibly not be the same? That's just a baffling statement to make. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2019 (EST)

Also, @LinkTheLefty, when you meant that Mega Kantera and Big Kyutyan should have the same treatment, what did you mean excatly? Did you meant they both should be merged with their respective articles, or that they should stay split, after the last proposal failed? If the former, i disagree for Mega Kantera, particularly as this one is purely coincidental. If the latter, i'd disagree for the Giant Raven to be kept split. -- 07:34, 3 March 2019 (EST)
 * Agreed with Doc von Schmeltwick! -- 02:39, 4 March 2019 (EST)