Template talk:Conjecture

Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia issue
A discussion in Discord with Camwood777 about Pattan's name in the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia had me double-check the page, and I noticed something we should probably clarify in this template. As it is now, it reads "If an official name appears, it is requested that the article should be moved to the correct name." Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is, for all intents and purposes, an official source of information; it's just not one we recognize due to the heavily "borrowed" content it uses from us.

Wondering if we should change the sentence to read this: "If an official name appears that is not from the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, it is requested that the article should be moved to the correct name.", with a link to Naming to clarify why we don't source them.

This will also be for the line in Template:Another language.

Proposer: Deadline: December 28, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) - I realize some users may just ignore reading the template and template information altogether, but that's their problem.
 * 2) - I agree on this, although there could be future examples of more sources that take names from Super Mario Wiki.
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) I'm all for this clarification. Per all.
 * 5) For those who come here just to change something in the text, like what has been done previously on this page.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 9) I wonder if "that is not from a source that borrows English names from this wiki" in place of "that is not from the English Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia" is more future-proof, but at the moment this will surely do the job.

Comments
I was actually considering creating a proposal to make one exception to how the wiki handles Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia (namely the Super Mario Land 2 course names, which are just over a page-worth of direct translations that seems the least likely content to have been taken from elsewhere), but if this proposal passes then I'll probably nix it. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:47, December 14, 2019 (EST)
 * I don't remember SML2 having names for the levels anyway, so their information is probably just as conjectural as ours. Unless someone has an NP guide of it somewhere. For curiosity's sake, what does the Encyclopedia call them? 21:30, December 14, 2019 (EST)
 * It names the majority of the zones and courses on page 77, with the last and secret courses for Turtle Zone and the castle world on page 78. It also has a different name than we have for the first level, the Start (スタート), but otherwise it seems to match the Shogakukan names as well as calls the casino (カシノ) as such on page 79. For future reference, here are the level names from the English version of the book with all the Japanese equivalents in parentheses.


 * Mario Land (マリオランド): Gate Course (ゲートコース), Scenic Course (展望台コース).
 * Tree Zone (ツリーゾーン): Tree Trunk Course (木のみきコース), Roots Course (根っこコース), Bee Hive Course (ハチの巣コース), Leaf Course (はっぱコース), Owl Course (ふくろうコース), Secret Course 1 (ひみつのコース１).
 * Space Zone (スペースゾーン): Bubble Course (しゃぼん玉コース), Moon Course (ムーンコース), Star Course (スターコース), Secret Course 2 (ひみつのコース２).
 * Macro Zone (マクロゾーン): Manhole Course (マンホールコース), Flower Course (花だんコース), Fireplace Course (だんろコース), Attic Course (屋根裏コース), Secret Course 3 (ひみつのコース３).
 * Pumpkin Zone (パンプキンゾーン): Bat Course (コウモリ館コース), Graveyard Course (妖怪寺コース), Haunted House Course (お化け屋敷コース), Witch’s Mansion Course (魔女の家コース), Secret Course 4 (ひみつのコース４), Secret Course 5 (ひみつのコース５).
 * Mario Zone (マリオゾーン): Gear Course (歯車コース), Gumball Course (ゴムボールコース), Crane Course (クレーンコース), Block Course (ブロックコース).
 * Turtle Zone (タートルゾーン): Cheep Cheep Course (プクプクコース), Sunken Ship Course (ちんぼつ船コース), Whale Course (くじらコース), Secret Course 6　(ひみつのコース６).
 * Wario’s Castle (ワリオ城): Inside Wario’s Castle (ワリオ城内).
 * We can just cite the Japanese version, but either way, these should at least be better than the current conjectural "Area" names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:50, December 15, 2019 (EST)
 * Update: since you brought up Nintendo Power, I double-checked and realized I overlooked some names present in the Super Game Boy Player's Guide. Here they are, with page number in parentheses.


 * Mario’s Castle (20), Hippo Stage (21).
 * Tree Zone (22): Invincibility! (mistakenly also labeled as "2" but screenshot and description show otherwise), In the Trees, Honeybees, The Exit, Final Boss: The Big Bird.
 * Macro Zone (23): The Ant Monsters, In the Syrup Sea, Fiery Mario–Special Agent, Endless Hearts / Final Boss: One Mighty Mouse! (same level but boss has extra info as "5").
 * Mario Zone (24): Fiery Blocks, Mario the Circus Star!, Beware: Jagged Spikes, Final Bosses: Three Mean Pigs!.
 * And that's it: secret courses are unmentioned and the Turtle Zone, Pumpkin Zone, Space Zone, and final level are briefly mentioned on page 25, so that still leaves the question of the remaining names. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:11, December 15, 2019 (EST)
 * Well, even if we don't use the SMBE, the Japanese names of the official guide work. 22:55, December 15, 2019 (EST)
 * Yeah, there are too much errors, i think making a counterproposal won't work (and i don't support it by now). -- 08:31, December 16, 2019 (EST)
 * Definitely not borrowed, since it's been taken without permisson, so it's stolen. -- 12:21, December 19, 2019 (EST)
 * ...i thought we all knew that already? 13:51, December 19, 2019 (EST)
 * I suppose we can just use the other guide names, though the result is going to look a bit eclectic. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:54, December 24, 2019 (EST)

@Mister Wu: While that change would work for the future, SMBE is (to my knowledge) the only official publication we have outright banned using on the wiki due to the widespread information it uses from us. If another piece of official media does the same mistake, the line can be adjusted in the future, but every piece of information from us that is officially recognized and used sparingly seems a bit much. In my eyes, if Nintendo's translators uses something we named (Rudy the Clown, Black Jewel, etc.), it means we were recognized and they decided that name sounds better/didn't care enough to look up the actual usage. Attribution would certainly be helpful, though ^^; 16:33, December 22, 2019 (EST)
 * Also, don't forget that we do have something else that was possibly sourced from the wiki (Polterpiranha/Ghost, since it seems unlikely that Super Smash Bros. Ultimate literally referred back to a short name from a Nintendo 3DS / Wii U trophy, as well as -potentially- Fire Nipper Plant even though that's a direct localization), but if we see something at or near the scope of Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia then we can cross that bridge when we get there. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:54, December 24, 2019 (EST)
 * We get there when we get ther Yeah, speaking of that, Octopus also has been named as such in the Encyclopedia despite not receiving a proper name in earlier official sources. How will we handle it? -- 10:34, December 24, 2019 (EST)
 * I plan to create a different proposal when this one is over that will address the Super Mario Land 2 enemy names (i.e. whether we should use Japanese names or generic descriptors). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:14, December 24, 2019 (EST)