Template talk:MK8

Proof of Bowser Jr's weight class
Since there's been a minor edit war on this Template over whether Bowser Jr is a Lightweight (like in Double Dash and Arcade GPDX) or a Middleweight (like in MK Wii), I think it's high time some sourced evidence was provided-

Video version- https://youtu.be/MX5E68tfSvc?t=15m17s

As you can clearly see, Bowser Jr's kart is the same size as Baby Luigi's (a Lightweight), while the Middleweight Luigi's is clearly larger. He is a Lightweight, end of story. -- 14:57, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * Looks can be deceiving though. Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach are classified as medium body frame characters, and yet they're among the heaviest characters in Mario Kart 8. While it's likely that Bowser Jr. will be in the lightweight category, we have yet to figure out if he has a unique stat spread or not. 18:42, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * To be fair, the template as a whole is deceiving right now. Cat Peach and Female Villager are between Larryweights and Yoshiweights, yet she's classified as Middleweight, based on body frame size. I think we should use body frame sizes for the template.--Mister Wu (talk) 21:11, 11 February 2017 (EST)

All official material for the game states that there are three weight classes. This isn't Mario Kart 7 where Bowser and DK are in different classes; they're both regarded as Heavyweights in 8 regardless of Bowser having a higher weight stat. It doesn't matter that Cat Peach and Female Villager are lighter than all the Middleweights. They are still Middleweights. This isn't even unique to Mario Kart 8. In Super Circuit, Yoshi was heavier than Peach and Toad, and Bowser was heavier than DK and Wario. Both were called a Light and Heavyweight respectively despite the difference. In addition to that there is nothing to suggest that Bowser Jr is going to be a special case like the Metals, and have a frame size that doesn't match his weight stat. "He was Medium in Mario Kart Wii!" isn't a valid point, and it's the only argument that can really be made. All we have to base judgment off is the frame size, and because of that, we should consider him a Lightweight unless some official news actually comes out that says otherwise. -- 21:45, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * Actually, it's the site that has three weight classes, the PRIMA guide states:




 * Racers in Mario Kart 8 are divided into five categories: Featherweight, Light, Medium, Heavy, and Cruiser. These weight classes are one of the key determining factors in kart and bike performance, influencing how you take and dish out contact with other racers, how well you drift, how much you benefit from drifting, how powerful your Mini-Turbos are, and how well you recover from getting struck by items. As a general rule, lighter-weight racers tend to have great acceleration and cornering, but suffer from lower top speeds and a tendency to get pushed around with great ease by heavier racers. The heavier racers have the highest top speeds in the game, but have issues with cornering, and their acceleration is very poor. Of course, a heavy racer can easily shove aside any smaller and lighter opponent!




 * Anyway, neither the PRIMA guide nor the official site classify Cat Peach and Female Villager, their placement is completely arbitrary, if we use the three weights as criterion. We could use the five weights of the PRIMA guide that group together Larryweights and Yoshiweights under the Light term, which would also group Cat Peach and Female villager with them, if you want.--Mister Wu (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2017 (EST) Last update:--Mister Wu (talk) 22:53, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * As far as this wiki is concerned, PRIMA is one of the last priority sources to take from. So in this case, official website listing is what we'll display here. 23:01, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * Judging by MarioWiki:Naming, Prima actually takes priority over the site. It falls after the game itself, official manuals, and Nintendo Player's Guides, but before "cartoons, movies, magazines, comics and web content". Granted, this is only for names and not other information, but I assume that the priorities are the same. 23:20, 11 February 2017 (EST)
 * If we consider the site as inspiration for the three-classes categorization there is a problem with Cat Peach and Female Villager - their weight class is between the two listed on the site (note that that site doesn't consider the frame size, since Pink Gold Peach and Metal Mario are heavy) and they haven't been given a weight class on the site. We can of course leave things as they are and just wait for the website of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe to clarify that, but in the meantime where do we put Bowser Jr.?--Mister Wu (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2017 (EST)

Uhh.....we leave Bowser Jr. as a Lightweight since that's what he seems to be. Nobody's questioning the classes for Dry Bones, Inkling, and King Boo, and there's no more evidence that they are what the Template says they are than there is for Bowser Jr being a Lightweight. As it stands right now, all actual evidence points towards him being Light, and anything regarding him being Middle is speculation based on a single previous entry in the series. As for the PRIMA vs official site topic, I agree with Baby Luigi that the official site is a more valid source than a strategy guide that wasn't even made by Nintendo. Nintendo themselves used the expanded weight class system in MK7 and ditched it in MK8. Female Villager and Cat Peach should both be considered Medium because they're derivative of Male Villager (Female Villager was an alternate in the orignal version of MK8) and Peach, both of whom are Middleweights. -- 10:29, 12 February 2017 (EST)
 * That "guide that wasn't made by Nintendo", despite its typos, reports the stats in the format used by the game's files (points) and has the items listed in the probability tables in the same order used in the game's files. It was definitely written in collaboration with Nintendo. I don't think we can say that MK8 didn't follow MK7 and expand upon it even in how the characters are grouped if we look at the stats. Simply put, the site is outdated and its criteria for categorization cannot be used even for DLC characters. Until the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe's site is out, we need other criteria for the template.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:56, 12 February 2017 (EST)

Again, I raise the point about past Mario Kart games featuring different stats, yet stick to the three weight class system. Super Circuit features differences within the Light and Heavies, yet we don't consider Yoshi and Bowser to have their own weight classes. Each character has their own individual weight in Mario Kart DS, yet we still use the weight class system even though everyone's completely different. There's nothing "outdated" about sticking to the three class system. Mario Kart 7's system isn't the rule, it's the exception. Besides, we're getting way off track, here. This is about Bowser Jr's weight. Given that frame size was evidence enough for all the other new characters in MK8 Deluxe, there is no valid reason as to why Bowser Jr should be viewed any differently. By the logic of "Jr could have a small frame but the weight of medium characters!", we could also say that King Boo might be use large karts but have the weight of a middleweight, or the Inklings might be lightweights with medium frames. -- 11:09, 12 February 2017 (EST)
 * The problem is that Mario Kart 8 is not officially using three weights, as the official guide clearly showed, the site does. I'm not against grouping Bowser Jr. among the Small characters and in general using body frame size to categorize the characters, I'm against using an outdated weight criterion to classify all the characters, even the newer ones that were introduced with the DLC packs and that are not classified in the site.--Mister Wu (talk) 11:23, 12 February 2017 (EST)

The guide's isn't accurate judging from the list posted earlier that placed Cruiserweights after Heavyweights: in Mario Kart 7 (which officially used this weight system, unlike Mario Kart 8) Cruiserweights were between Heavies and Mediums, not the heaviest class. That inconsistency alongside being sourced by a third party should be enough to invalidate Prima's claims. On top of that.....it's a strategy guide, of course it's going to go more in-depth about the characters' differences. That doesn't mean its class system is official, especially when they didn't even get the classes' names correct. -- 12:32, 17 February 2017 (EST)
 * The site is as accurate as the guide, i.e. neither of them mention the 7 classes of characters which were there before the DLC packs (that aren't always weight classes, by the way, as Metal Mario and Pink Gold Peach show). I agree putting Bowser Jr. among the small characters, I disagree with the current template structure until the site of MK8D is out. Regarding the specific character class of Bowser Jr., he could pertain to a new character's class just like other newly introduced characters.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:46, 17 February 2017 (EST)