Talk:Paper Mario (series)

Alright, I finally got (most of) this article off the ground. If someone can give me a hand with SPM, I'll be happy. -Dodo

Doesn't this article just tell the story of the two games, as already told in the games' articles? A series article needs to describe gameplay mechanics between games and the like it. This article should describe what makes this series unique from other Mario sub-series. What makes a Paper Mario game a Paper Mario game? Unfortunately, a lot of this article should probably be deleted, as the story info can be found in better places. -- Son of Suns
 * Agreed. It just tells the story, it should not be the story, it should be the history on how the series came to be, its critical aclaim, some tables showing the Bosses, Where the "Relic" (Important Item) is found, and Partners. It should also have gameplay, and all that other stuff. The infoboxes have to go, as well.

This article currently only states what could easily be said in the game's pages as well. There is potential, like focussing on things like the battle system, the graphical style and the similarities in the storyline for the first to games, but currently, it doesn't even compare them. - 17:19, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't think Paper Mario's working title and information about that should be there. Mario246

Could somebody tell me what the HECK happened to Paper Mario DS? It was here and all hyped up and then POOF Its gone!

It fanon.

Apparently, there is a Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door 2 in the works. Here's a link: Shadow_King618

That is complete bull fanon.

Please don't chat on here. And Paper mario 3ds is official.

In the secondary protagonists part of this page, Shouldn't TEC-XX be considered a secondary protagonist? 0?0

Yo, shouldn't there be a "secondary antagonists" section? -Mr. L's biggest fan.

Create Pages for Beta
DO NOTHING 0-5

I think we should create pages for beta items, enemies, etc. We have Drill Bit, Super Mario 128, right? I think we should create pages for Okooru, Trade Off, Hyper Bob-Omb, etc. I know i tried this before here, but let me tell all of you something: those unused items CAN be placed in the final version of the game, they have full sprites with no errors in look or function (except the "please come back" item). What I think is if an unused enemy, boss, item, or badge CAN function in the game when placed there, it deserves an article (except for the badges, the can go here).

Proposer: Deadline: November 2, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Oppose

 * 1) Seriously. There would be a lot of new stubs!
 * 2) hey you know what's great about this proposal we already had it right here
 * 3) Per the proposal that failed on making pages on certain beta items here, specifically Raven Effect's and Bowser's Luma's opposes there.
 * 4) - Per Goombas'Shoe15/Raven Effect.
 * 5) Per all.

Comments
@Paperphailurethemariomonster99: Drill Bit appeared in the final game, so it merits its own article. Mario &amp; Luigi
 * Dark Paratroopa appeared in PM2, and Albino Dino appeared in the final PM. They merit their own articles, but not the ones you created. Mario &amp; Luigi
 * Why? They have FULL INFO. Can we at least make pages for the PM beta items that work in the final version?
 * The articles you created did NOT have full info! Mario &amp; Luigi
 * I'm not the only person with internet, you know...
 * What is that supposed to mean? Mario &amp; Luigi
 * It means you could have helped, too. An article that one person builds won't look good. An article that multiple people build will look good.
 * Yeah, but the proposal phailed failed, and this proposal did not pass yet. Mario &amp; Luigi
 * What I'm saying is it's not to late to change your mind.

Just so you know, the quality of an article is not based off how many people or edits have contributed to the article, but how much dedication went into the content on the article. Just read one of the smaller NIWA wikis (Metroid Wiki comes to mind for me) for a while, then check the history on one of the pages that impresses you the most; sometimes they'll have many people editing them, and sometimes they'll have two or three highly dedicated users just working on them for a few days. It really is independent of the number of edits or users.
 * I put a LOT of dedication into the page. I went to tcrf.net and opened TextEdit. Then I copied the PMEnemybox from the Goomba page. Then I pasted it into TextEdit. Then I edited the name and stats to fit the Hyper Bob-Omb. Then I pasted it in the Hyper Bob-Omb page. Then I edited the stats to fit the Ultra Bob-Omb. Then I pasted the Ultra Bob-Omb's stats to the Ultra Bob-Omb article. Then I typed up the rest of the page. It was a lot of hard work.
 * Actually, you really did a whole lot of copy-pasting; you're just dragging it out to make it seem like it was so hard.

Since the proposer was just blocked, does that mean the proposal is deleted by admins? Apologies if this was already planned; I'm just trying to ensure it isn't overlooked.
 * This is what happens when I tell someone about a website with beta things and they go crazy about it. I should have told no one, they would have to figure out.
 * @Bop1996: No apologies necessary. I brought it to the others' attention and should find out in due time what to do about this (I'm assuming it gets deleted). It's admittedly easy to forget about the state of TPPs since they aren't edited as frequently as their mainspace counterparts.
 * Should anyone still be curious, considering the length of time remaining until the deadline and the fact that this thing most likely won't pass, it's been more or less decided to leave the proposal alone. It'll get archived tomorrow.
 * Touche.

Nolrem on here.
If Merlon is here' then should I add Nolrem?

Untitled Paper Mario game
Paper Mario is a upcoming game for the Wii U, This is the fifth installment of Paper Mario announced in the E3 2015.

Now that Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam is a thing...
...how would people feel about splitting articles (namely characters and locations) now that the "Paper Mario" universe is a confirmed separate entity? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * How about we wait until the game actually comes out, or at least until we have more concrete information?
 * I'm throwing it out there in advance so the wiki can get used to the prospect. It's obvious that's the intention judging from the Nintendo Direct recap. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:34, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * "the "Paper Mario" universe is a confirmed separate entity". Nope. Also, this looks way more like a Mario & Luigi game to me. Just listen to the sound effects for one thing! --Hiccup (talk) 14:05, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * From the recap: "Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam: Paper Mario jumps out of the book and into the bizarre adventures of Mario & Luigi, resulting in hilarious and dangerous hijinks. Become the superstar team of Mario, Luigi and Paper Mario to take on quests, take down enemies and untangle these two unique universes in this playful new entry in the Mario & Luigi series. The game is scheduled to launch in spring 2016." This basically confirms old speculation, what with the implied differentiation the Paper Mario series has had over time. That said, yes, it's too early to write off to what extent this is true. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * It is a press release, you should expect them to exaggerate. We won't find out for sure until more footage, or game, is released. --Hiccup (talk) 14:43, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I'm not a registered user for this sight (made a few edits or links at times, but I would like to note a few things. First, The E3 page for Paper Jam has artwork that seems to suggest that the Paper characters do emerge from a book. Next, the game seems to heavily play up the paper aspects like Sticker Star did, which adds to the serparate universe thing. On the other hand certain events, such as the first Paper Mario, do appear to be "canon" (since the Star Spirits appear in Mario Party 5, among other things). Just my observations. 24.231.38.180


 * Above all else, I'd say it just proves once again that Nintendo really doesn't give a flying leap about "Mario canon", and will just do whatever it wants with the series if it'll mean a fun game. If anything, it validates our "everything's canon, there is no one timeline, don't even try to make sense of it just report it as it is" stance, and I am vehemently opposed to wantonly splitting hundreds of articles over this game: bad for navigation, bad for readability, and it would open the floor to splitting things like the anime movie and television show versions, which would be even worse. The live-action movie being separated is bad enough, but at least they're an isolated little cluster of pages: splitting something as ingrained as the PM serious would be a disastrous move.
 * The only issue we really need to discuss is how to organize the info. Treating it like a crossover in terms of categorization and whatnot is the most straightforward solution, and both series page can have little blurbs about the game, rather than one or the other (like how Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 is dealt with on both Wario Land (series) and Super Mario Land (series)). As for History sections where both series are already present, since we can't write everything twice, I'd say put it under M&L, and use in the PM series subheaders (just the overall series subheader, not a second "M&L:PJ" header) to redirect readers there. And if only one of the series' sections exists, just put it there - again, like how WL:SML3 info goes in the SML series for Mario (rather than making a extra, separate section), but goes in its usual WL series placement for Wario. -  15:25, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * In Paper Mario, the Star Spirits protect the Star Rod at Star Haven; in Mario Party 5, the Star Guards look over the Dream Depot. The only thing that carries over are the character designs and names, but they're depicted in a completely separate role. Reading the "References to other games" and "Reference in later games" sections of the individual Paper Mario titles, nothing really ties directly with the storyline of a game outside its own series, whereas you notably have Partners in Time in the Mario & Luigi series. The "paper art style" has also gone from a cute little visual gag when it first started to something that's the norm for the world and characters and is actually played with in the gameplay and even plot as the series continued. I'd say that the Paper Mario series has demonstrated an isolated enough world for the upcoming crossover to be legitimate and should be taken for what it is when it comes. I also don't see the worry about opening the door for splitting different parts of the series, because the signs point to this premise being an explicit exception that Nintendo will be making rather than the rule. As long as that's made clear, it's not a concern. (I also think hundreds of pages is an overestimation, since stuff like common recurring enemies would be overdoing it - I meant more major subjects like "Paper Mario" himself, Shooting Star Summit, etc.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:06, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Just want to chime in, and I agree with Time Turner. We should focus on getting the info down in the first place, and once the game is out, we'll worry about organizing the information. Just put it in the game article since the new information currently has no place to go. I suppose the game can get a mention in the respective series article for now just to direct attention, but this game is unprecedented in the Mario RPG genre, so I'll take caution for now. 19:56, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Info can go in existing character History sections too. We probably will have to make "Paper Mario/Peach/Bowser (character)" pages at least, but I still agree that it'd be better to wait to do that. It could be a case like Dr. Mario where all the series info will have to be moved, but again, there's not much crossover there, whereas plenty of characters are in both PM and other series - but not necessarily in this game, with both versions coexisting, so exactly how pervasive the character splits will be is unknown, and I'd rather not be hasty about hacking apart major articles. And I still disagree that stylistic and gameplay choices mean the PM series is unequivocally isolated, given all those character, species, item and place crossovers. The IP's point about the Star Spirits shouldn't be handwaved any more than things like Toadsworth or Kamek also being in PM games. The paper stuff was involved in gameplay as early as PM2, while other games take great liberties with the portrayal of the Marioverse too - we gonna split Yoshi's Woolly World next? There's always a worry about potentially opening doors to questionable choices when it comes to organizing the Mario series - it's impossible to comprehensively present this mess in a way that'll leave everyone satisfied, so there's always openings for dissenters to come and try and start big thorny debates over one thing or another. (Side note: the Shooting Star Summit thing isn't necessary a "Paper Mario vs. the world" situation anyway, seeing as there's different names and appearances: a split is defendable regardless of the series involved, and a TPP could be done now (using non-M&L:PJ reasons).) - 21:08, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * About making (character) articles, maybe sometime later would be a good idea to split those Luigis from Galaxy 1, lol. But let's tackle one headache at a time. And let's not tackle it right now. The E3 is designed for shock value rather than substantial information, so let's keep that in mind. 21:18, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Lol, yeah, I kept wanting to use them as an example of a one-game-only doppelganger, which is the other option besides the Dr. Mario-like series-wide split, but we voted not to do that, so yeah... - 21:50, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * The stylistic and gameplay choices shouldn't be taken as proof on their own that they're separate, but I'm saying that it makes sense after the premise of this recently-revealed title would explain it as such. Something I found odd while playing Sticker Star was that Kamek and Bowser Jr. were actually formally reintroduced in the game's dialog, which I assumed was just a Paper Mario series quirk, but it almost feels like it was leading up to this outcome since it's now feasible those versions of Kamek and Bowser Jr. may not have had the same early history as shown during the events of Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Sunshine... But yeah, let's agree that if and when Paper Jam will have to result in some key splits, species articles would be too far and overly confusing. (As for Star Hill/Shooting Star Summit - if we deem one incarnation separate, splitting all three probably makes the most sense in the end.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:33, 16 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I think we will at least need a page for Paper Mario, Peach, Bowser since they appear to have notable roles in the story and, at tleast in the case of the first, unique abilities from their 3D counterparts. As for the rest we'll see how the game goes. Like others have said, we can start making articles when we have more information. Lumastar  ( talk) [[Image: SMG GreenLuma.jpg|30px ]] 23:46, 16 June 2015
 * I really doubt Nintendo plans that far ahead with Mario. More like they introduced them because they didn't want to assume players would know who they were ahead of time, or risk confusing those same players when everyone knew everyone else already. Because plot and continuity are the enemies of fun. Like SMG2, and the Koopalings, and PM:SS itself, and new this game too. It's pretty much the SOP these days: no need to read any more into it. @Lumastar: Yes, but still, wait and see before even making those pages. - 00:06, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I'd even advocate waiting until the game is released. 15:51, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
 * I'd even advocate waiting until the game is released. 15:51, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

Why is this still listed as a Paper Mario game? The name starts with Mario & Luigi. The battle system is like Mario & Luigi. The music and sound effects are like Mario & Luigi. It is developed by the people who made Mario & Luigi. It is really nothing like any of the other Paper Mario. This really should be classified as a Mario & Luigi game, or a spin-off. --Hiccup (talk) 07:16, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Because it's a crossover? Like how Mario Hoops 3-on-3 has nothing to do with Final Fantasy, but is still a crossover due to all the characters and topics that crossover over. Most readers will expect both series to talk about it, and while, like I said earlier, it's primarily a M&L game and should be organized as such in History sections and whatnot, it would seem like an oversight and hamper navigation to not have the PM stuff include it as well. - 15:41, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
 * Mario Hoops 3-on-3 is not a crossover, at least from the definition I'm familiar with. While the lines between crossover and guest appearances aren't always clear, the Final Fantasy characters are more likely guest appearances similar to Mario appearances in NBA Street V3. Meanwhile, Mario Sports Mix blurs the lines with the same characters, but with a Final Fantasy boss and even a Final Fantasy song in the minigames. Considering that they put a Final Fantasy-esque character in Super Mario RPG, I'd say it's just Square Enix's knack of celebrating their series rather than a true crossover. Fortune Street is more of a crossover than Mario Hoops 3-on-3. There should be some Paper Mario stuff in the corresponding sections anyway. But, let's not jump to conclusions quite yet, although it's strongly suggested that it's mostly Mario & Luigi elements. 15:46, 17 June 2015 (EDT)

Well I think it looks like a good game... also who said it had to have paper Mario in the title? It's a crossover, they need to think of a name than just, "Mario, Luigi, and Paper Mario crossover." -The Mario Man - 8 July 2015
 * What? 14:45, 8 July 2015 (EDT)

Should I separate Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam from the other games listed?
I'm thinking about putting Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam under Crossovers and putting the other four games under Main Series. I could also add the Super Smash Bros. series under Crossovers since the Paper Mario series is referenced in each game since Melee and even gets a stage and song in the latest installment. Lumastar ( talk)  1:09 EDT


 * No, too much organizational clutter for so little gain. It's enough to just explain in the entry that it's a crossover. As for SSB, that's nothing like M&L:PJ at all - it's a crossover of the overall Mario franchise, but to try and say it's a crossover to any specific subseries is going too far. A "references in other series" type section would be more appropriate, but if we do that here, we'd have to start doing it for all the series pages for consistency, so it'd be better to make a proposal about it first. - 22:53, 10 July 2015 (EDT)
 * Okay, thanks for answering! Lumastar  ( talk) [[Image: SMG GreenLuma.jpg|30px ]] 23:56 EDT

This page is a mess
Why is the majority of the series' page talking about one-off characters anyway? It misses its function of talking about the series' history, gameplay mechanics, reception, etc. I'll get to that soon, but if no one objects, I'll get rid of the endless list of characters and rewrite the entire page. Koopalmier (talk) 12:52, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * The poor state of the series page has been discussed extensively, so you'll get no objections. Being bold is good. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * Does this mean we should do the same thing to the Mario & Luigi (series) article? Cause I personally don't see any problem with having secondary characters and similarities listed. 15:36, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * Because of the vast differences in the games, having similarities in the series page is necessary. When I want to see the similarities, I don't want to go to every article and compare them. Paper Mario (series) and Mario & Luigi (series) are the only series pages that need a similarities section.Redyoshi.png Yoshi the SSM (talk) Future space station for sig.jpg 16:27, 22 August 2016
 * You're right, I'll add it back. Koopalmier (talk) 18:15, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * Personally, I don't agree with all the info that was removed. I feel it's necessary to talk about important secondary characters and antagonists in the series. It was still valid info, I still don't see a reason to remove it. 17:25, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * How important are they to the overall series if they are not recurring characters? It's the individual games' pages' job to talk about the characters relevant to said games. The overall series page should only feature characters who appeared in most games, in my opinion. Otherwise we find ourselves with a bunch of information that is not relevant to the actual subject; which is the Paper Mario series as a whole. At least, I wouldn't consider Dimentio to be relevant to most of the series. Either way, please let me rewrite the page first and then we can discuss which removed information should still be there. Koopalmier (talk) 18:15, 22 August 2016 (EDT)

Page in construction - Let's discuss what to keep or not from the previous version
I have finished rewriting the page, although it needs to be cleaned up. However, some users have pointed out that I have removed elements which should have stayed, so let's discuss what should belong on this page, what to remove and what to bring back.

On characters: I believe that having a description for every secondary protagonist and every major antagonist only clogged up the page. Not because I think we should remove character pages - they are essential for the RPGs - but because most of the characters who were described there are irrelevant to the Paper Mario series as a whole. Not only that, but the fact there was almost no information on the actual gameplay of the series basically made this page just a messy list of irrelevant things.

On similarities between games: They are from the same series, obviously there will be similarities. I fail to see the point of having such a section. I brought it back because a user pointed out that it bothered them to not have it, but we should still discuss it. Koopalmier (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2016 (EDT)
 * To be honest, I think chopping up the Paper Mario games into specific, unofficial "iterations" is arbitrary and pointless. 22:01, 29 September 2016 (EDT)
 * Unless this discussion ended, I'd like to say I found the previous format better. The article is now only mentioning the games and the four characters who are Mario series staples. I feel we lost a lot of valid information by removing the partners, antagonists and such. They were just as important to the series as Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser were. I personally think we should re-add the other characters.
 * I believe the iterations needs to come back as it divided the games based on the change in genre. I semi-disagree with bringing back the other characters though. The importance of the characters has certainly waned between the games as the series has evolved. When referring to the series as a whole, only the recurring characters, those whom are a staple to the series, should be mentioned. MAybe the main villain of each game as well, since their importance is arguably equal to the main character's.-- 16:04, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * "Change in genre"? There is no change in genre. The idea of splitting up the first two games as "First Generation: RPG", Super Paper Mario as "Second Generation: RPG-Platformer" and the most recent two games as "Third Generation: Action Adventure-RPG" is arbitrary, unnecessary, reeks of fanon, and is ridiculous as splitting Super Mario (series)'s game section into two, one for 2D platformers and another for 3D platformers (and splitting up Super Mario 64 and Sunshine as "first generation open-world platforming" and Galaxy 1 & 2 as "second generation linear planetoid hopping platformer" and Super Mario 3D Land / World as "third generation 3D linear platforming"). Don't even get me started with Mario Party. This whole Color Splash is an "action-adventure" tagline being extrapolated here to infer a change in genre I keep hearing is also ridiculous since the original Paper Mario has also tagged it like that. Finally, edit warring isn't going to take us anywhere, so stop reverting both and  edits. If you want to improve the article, Mario (franchise) is a good example to fall back on, as the current format of this page is bad and should be abandoned, for various reasons I won't go into detail here.  17:57, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * The only argument I hear for the whole "Color Splash is an action-adventure game" is an argument from authority rather than an actual analysis of what genre Color Splash is. 18:08, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * Understood. However this wasn't an edit war. I stated my reason for reverting 's edit as "The iterations split the games up by their changing genres." Which, prior to your argument, made sense. When re-reverted the change, stating "Yes, but they're unofficial, it may change back to an old one in the future" I replied to them on their talk page with "When that point comes, then it would be appropriate to change, but as it currently stand the Paper Mario series have gone through three generations in their genre and gameplay style. These are three entirely different generations of games that belong to the same series" and they said "Thanks for telling me, that totally makes sense now. ". I then re-re-reverted the page.
 * Also, the eshop itself says Color Splash is an Action-Adventure Strategy game. I didn't even know there WAS an argument about it.-- 20:21, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * I think that's a weird category to put Color Splash in. They didn't even put it in "role-playing" (while Paper Mario is for some reason) even though I am confident it's an RPG based on the gameplay alone. You still have a lot of other sources categorizing it under "role-playing" including Metacritic, GameFAQs, categorized in Wikipedia as "role-playing" (though not stated explicitly when I think it should) as well, but my main point: if it looks like a duck, quacks like one, acts like one, it is a duck. 20:57, 7 November 2016 (EST)
 * Maybe because what most consider to be RPG elements in this game are far lacking in the eyes of Nintendo?-- 21:10, 7 November 2016 (EST)

Paper Jam - An indirect installment?
Some recent edits I made on the Color Splash page (like changing "fifth installment" to "fifth main installment") were reverted because, apparently, Paper Jam's status as an indirect installment seems to be contested. I don't get it at all. Obviously, it's not a direct installment--it's a Mario & Luigi game first and foremost, taking its title, basic gameplay, and battle system--but the Paper Mario influence is very clear as well. It contains characters from the Paper Mario universe--not just random unrelated paper characters like some people seem to insist--as well as containing the Paper Mario name in the Japanese title, the subtitle being written in the same style used for the newer Paper Mario logo, as well as the fact that Intelligent Systems is confirmed to have had at least some involvement with the game's development. It's much the same case as Mario Sports Superstars, which is considered an indirect installment of Mario Golf and Mario Tennis for having similar gameplay and Camelot as an assistant developer. I don't see why Paper Jam shouldn't be considered an indirect installment of the series; if Paper Jam is removed from this page, we will need to redefine our stance on indirect installments entirely. And especially over something like "fifth main installment"...I mean, it's still the fifth main installment whether or not Paper Jam is counted. - 00:36, October 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Agreed. MiracleDinner (talk) 12:05, October 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * On the contrary, I don't see why Paper Jam should be considered an indirect installment. It's a Mario & Luigi game through and through. The gameplay is 100% Mario & Luigi, the only difference from previous installments is that now there's characters and enemies from Sticker Star. It's not a Paper Mario game whatsoever. By that logic, you could argue Smash Bros. is a Mario/Zelda/Pokemon/etc. game. Personally, I think the whole idea of "indirect installments" of a series is a bit silly, it's either part of the series or it isn't, though at least Mario Sports Superstars actually shares gameplay with the other sports games. -- 13:47, October 7, 2019 (EDT)

Sorry, I had no idea this discussion was here, but per what Waluigi Time said. Mario Sakuraba (talk) 15:37, October 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Indeed, it's a related game worth mentioning, but not an installment here in its own right, "indirect" or otherwise. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:44, October 7, 2019 (EDT)
 * Yeah, just because characters appear in another game doesn't mean it's part of that series. Just like how The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening isn't a Mario game, and Mario Sports Mix isn't a Final Fantasy game. (Fortune Street is both a Mario and Final Fantasy game, though, due to only being a crosssover of only two franchises and not having gameplay, or a title, that explicitly makes it a game of either series. (Super Smash Bros. is it's own thing, though, due to the sheer amount of other franchises equally crossing over making Smash simply its own franchise imo) 18:45, October 7, 2019 (EDT)


 * According to this article https://www.gameinformer.com/games/mario__luigi_paper_jam/b/3ds/archive/2015/06/16/the-paper-mario-x-mario-amp-luigi-crossover-feels-delightfully-familiar.aspx Paper Jam is a crossover of the Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi series. I am unsure if this is to be trusted though. I would also say that there is a difference between whether or not we think Paper Jam deserves to be considered a Paper Mario game and whether or not it is officially branded as one. MiracleDinner (talk) 10:44, October 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * Paper Jam is clearly a crossover between the Mario & Luigi series and Paper Mario characters, we don't need a news article to tell us that. What it is not is a Paper Mario game, "indirect" or otherwise. The only thing that would make me budge on this is official material from Nintendo directly stating Paper Jam is part of the Paper Mario series. -- 18:16, October 8, 2019 (EDT)
 * I see. I am unsure if there is any official material to tell us, but assuming there isn't my mind on this has changed and I am happy for this wiki to consider Paper Jam excluded from the Paper Mario series. MiracleDinner (talk) 10:42, October 9, 2019 (EDT)

I think the main issue here is that we need a more proper definition for an indirect installment. The way I see it, an indirect installment is equivalent to a related game: it's related to a series, but not directly part of it; in other words, a spinoff. In a short while I'll probably be making a proposal to set a policy on how to handle such games, like Yoshi's Island, Sports Superstars, and yes, Paper Jam. And as with those other games, to outright remove it from the game list is going too far. Indirect, related, call it whatever you want, but it means the same thing. So far this debate has seemed to me like a disagreement that simply doesn't exist. - 13:21, October 9, 2019 (EDT)
 * Indirect installments and related games are very different things, in my opinion. Indirect installment still implies that it is an installment in the series, just not part of the main series, like with say the arcade Mario Kart games. Related games are games that are related to a series in one way or another, like with Sports Superstars and Paper Jam, but are not part of the series in any way and thus should not be counted as such. Personally, I dislike considering indirect insallments that, as spin-offs is a better term, especially since most games grouped as indirect installments aren't actually that. 15:45, October 9, 2019 (EDT)