Talk:Piranhacus Giganticus

I noticed that the Piranhacus Giganticus in the left picture has different colored lips than the one in the right picture. Does this mean that they might be different species? Is there any proof that they are the same? A Link to the Present 03:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Merge
I think we should merge this with Super Piranha Plant. Who agrees? Astro3000
 * I don't think so, they're diffirent. Piranhacus Giganticus comes from pipes, while Super Piranha Plant don't. 12:45, 30 December 2012 (EST)

We really should merge this page with Big Piranha Plant
There is no reason to have them split because a) Piranha Plants in recent games have appeared both in pipes and out of them and b) they both have the same Japanese name (でかパックンフラワー (Deka Pakkunfurawā)). Piranhacus Giganticus is a name that I think was used in official guides for SMB3, and that has been turned obsolete by recent translations. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 12:36, 22 January 2014 (EST)


 * I could start a proposal in a while if needed, sounds sensible to me. Lord Grammaticus (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2014 (EST)

Piranhacus Giganticus / Giant Piranha Plant
In the Nintendo Power Strategy Guide for Super Mario Bros. 3, this enemy is brought up exactly twice, and has a separate name in each instance. Are there any other sources that give preference on Piranhacus Giganticus or Giant Piranha Plant (excluding the debatable Big Piranha Plant, which is split on basis of pipe)? LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:42, 11 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between the Giant/Big Plants, but if it helps, the NSMBU and NSMB2 Prime eGuides use "Big Piranha Plant", and the NSMBW guide uses "Super Piranha Plant" for the same thing. They're rather vague about where they appear, though, but NSMBU mentions pipes ("Big Piranha Plants can’t be stomped and won’t withdraw into Pipes like regular Piranha Plants").
 * Do the NSBMU & NSMB2 guides differentiate between the basic potted and grounded Piranha Plants in any way, and is that quote referencing them in a specific level or in general? I just find it to be a bit of a discrepancy when the regular-sized ones (plus the uprooted walkers from SMRPG) are both considered garden variety and part of the same article, but the larger ones of approximately the same size are split. I guess the idea here is that Piranhaci Gigantici/Giant Piranha Plants are slightly too large to fit in pipes, neverminding that the pipe-dwellers in the Galaxy games totally eclipse what we call Big Piranha Plants and that the ordinary potted and grounded Piranha Plants also have a similar mild model difference in the NSMB games. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Like I said, they're rather vague. I grabbed the names and the quote from the big enemy lists at the start, and there's only mention of one larger-than-normal Piranha Plant species. NSMBW seems to only reference Plants that dwell outside of pipes (as seen here and here), as does NSMBU (as seen here, here, and here). I haven't found any references in the NSMB2 eGuide yet.
 * Ok. In that case, can you please add the reference from the NSMBU guide that states that Big Piranha Plants don't use pipes? Since potted and grounded big Piranha Plants coexist in that game, that quote is probably the best reason to keep them separate. LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I haven't played the game, so I wouldn't know, but the guide only makes reference to one Piranha Plant +size. I scanned through the guide for places it was mentioned, and the name was always tied to the non-potted ones while I didn't see a single one inside the pipes. Are you sure they're in the game?
 * Yup, the pipe-dwelling big ones are in Jungle of the Giants...although, since they're only in one area, is it possible that Prima mistook them for the regular-sized ones in that level? LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:24, 11 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Hm. The guide doesn't mention any Piranha Plants being in the stage at all, though the guide understandably only covers how to get Star Coins and the like. Would the pipe-dwellers happen to be in other stages?
 * That's the only stage, unless they were added elsewhere in New Super Luigi U (which I'm sure the guide doesn't include). From the sound of it, it seems Prima borrowed some of the more general information from their previous guides, and neglected or glanced over the one level that the big pipe-dwellers make an appearance. Given the context of the coverage, on second thought, that quote probably wouldn't be the best reference to use in favor of keeping Big Piranha Plant and Piranhacus Giganticus mutually exclusive...which makes their actual differences back to square one, unfortunately. There was a proposal a short while ago that suggested a merge (and would've solved my original question of whether this article should use Piranhacus Giganticus or Giant Piranha Plant by making the issue nonexistent), but it failed. I think the reasons could have been stronger on both sides, though... At this point in time with current knowledge, I believe there should be reconsideration between merging these articles or splitting the regular-sized in and out of pipes ones as well... LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:01, 12 April 2015 (EDT)

Merge with Big Piranha Plant
As gathered above, the Prima guide of New Super Mario Bros. U mildly implied that Big Piranha Plants are different from these Giant Piranha Plants due to the guide mentioning that Big Piranha Plants are only grounded rather than in pipes; therefore, this would support the separation, right? Looking at the previous proposal, there might have also been too much emphasis on the unsourced Japanese names being the same, which can be treated as incidental at times.

Now, here are some reasons that the two should be merged:

1) It also turns out that the Prima guide isn't as in-depth as one would hope and doesn't even include Piranha Plants as enemies in the one place where the pipe-dwelling "Piranhacus Giganticus" actually shows up, Jungle of the Giants. Couple that with the fact that big pipe-dwellers don't even get a mention in the guide, and it stands to reason that this is a classic Prima mistake, likely caused by reusing older material (ie. New Super Mario Bros. (Wii/2)).

2) It's been postulated in an older version of this article that the main difference between the two is that Big Piranha Plants are too large to fit in pipes. One only has to look at the first image of the current Piranhacus Giganticus article to see that idea is false. In fairness, comparing the large Super Mario Galaxy version of the enemy isn't a good comparison since all the giant enemies there absolutely eclipse their incarnations from other games, so let's look at New Super Mario Bros. U specifically since it's the only game where the big ground and pipe-dwellers exist. Are the pipe-dwelling "Piranhaci Gigantici" larger than grounded Big Piranha Plants? Admittedly, a difference is indeed there. However, the same difference exists between the grounded and pipe-dwelling normal Piranha Plants - they merely scaled the models up, making this more noticeable in the larger versions. Even with this mild boost in size, the grounded Piranha Plants can ostensibly fit in the same pipes as the pipe-dwelling versions.

3) If this remains split, then there's no tangible reason to keep grounded and pipe-dwelling versions of Piranha Plants, Fire Piranha Plants, and Ice Piranha Plants in those respective articles. Just like newer material, there's no known official media that significantly distinguishes between these two variants. What would we even call these articles? "(Fire/Ice) Piranha Plant (Pipe)" & "(Fire/Ice) Piranha Plant (Ground)"? Would the RPG appearances be included? Etc. By far, the simplest solution is to treat Big Piranha Plant and Piranhacus Giganticus as one and the same, matching official capacity.

Bottom Line: The older Giganticus Piranhacus / Giant Piranha Plant name hasn't been used in any way alongside Big Piranha Plants, and like "Gargantua Koopa Troopas" or Grand Goombas, retranslated names are used in more recent appearances (usually going in a "Big" [name] motif).

Proposer: Deadline: May 1, 2015 (23:59 GMT)

Merge

 * 1) Per above obserations.
 * 2) Per LinkTheLefty (again).
 * 3) Per all.
 * 4) That's a merge! I approve this proposal!
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) I'm surprised this wasn't merged sooner.

Keep

 * 1) While I appreciate the purpose of this proposal and have read the arguments, many thing still have to be touched upon, starting with how the two have different attack patterns. Piranhacus Giganti are the same as regular Piranha Plants, just bigger. Big Piranha Plants, on the other hand, sways around erratically. As they have no pipes, they also serve as a semi-permanent obstacle, while a regular Piranhacus Gigantus can simply be timed. Merging the two species together would be along the lines of merging, say, a Venus Fire Trap with the Regular Piranha Plant article. Using this logic, all the Piranha Plant-related characters could then technically be put under on page, which would be a mess. The bottom line is this: they attack differently, look different, are named different, and all and all, are different, albeit under the same family of species.
 * 2) Per Andymii. You need reliable sources before you can merge the two. Plus, what name will be given when they are merged?

Comments
@Andymii Regular Piranha Plants do the same thing in some games (Super Mario 64, for one). Does that make them a new species? Binarystep (talk) 14:40, 18 April 2015 (EDT)
 * Well, if the Mario 64 plants are officially called "Piranha Plants," then the developers wanted them to be the same (many things were tweaked from the change to 3D, says there had been on other 3D game to base it upon). Again, if we are going to merge based on the fact that they are similar, then we might as well put all Piranha Plant species under one page, which I find illogical. Andymii (talk) 12:04, 19 April 2015 (EDT)
 * I've already addressed this under #3 - the current difference between a Big Piranha Plant and Piranhacus Giganticus (which, might I add, hasn't been used for nearly two decades) applies to normal Piranha Plants, Fire Piranha Plants, and Ice Piranha Plants, and splitting those on the same merits would be a nightmare. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:25, 19 April 2015 (EDT)

@Stonehill - Can you elaborate what you mean? It should be understood that official references already don't distinguish between the grounded and pipe-dwelling normal Piranha Plants, Fire Piranha Plants and Ice Piranha Plants, and these reliable sources also don't mention a similar explicit difference between the large grounded (what we have as Big Piranha Plant, the modern name) and pipe-dwelling (Piranhacus Giganticus/Giant Piranha Plant, a name last used in supplemental SMB3 material) varieties. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:12, 25 April 2015 (EDT)
 * What I mean is, you need very reliable sources from areas other than Prima guides (considering how much the Prima guides and Nintendo are apart from each other). Most of your observations are what you've come up with yourself.
 * @Andymii vs. LinkTheLefty - Referring to what LinkTheLefty said, that's not a very valid argument.
 * @Stonehill - Isn't "reliable sources from areas other than Prima guides" exactly that what I've done? What's not valid about the observation that, since these two appear alongside each other in New Super Mario Bros. U, they display about as many differences as normal Piranha Plants, Fire Piranha Plants and Ice Piranha Plants do on the ground versus in pipes? Would it be a better thing for the wiki to go the other direction and split normal Piranha Plants, Fire Piranha Plants and Ice Piranha Plants between grounded and pipe versions using these same amount of differences? A lot of name changes don't have a formal statement (or "reliable source") from Nintendo saying something along the lines of, "we are now officially calling this thing something else now." This proposal is like many other merges in that we have to rely on our own design, gameplay and translation-related observations. For example, we've concluded that SMB3 Grand Goombas are the same as modern Big Goombas despite the latter splitting into two in the NSMB games, or that the homing Fish Bones in the NSMB games are not a separate "Missile Bill" type of species. If we were as strict as to require a declaration on every little detail, Princess Peach might be one of the few merged articles from Toadstool. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:06, 29 April 2015 (EDT)