Talk:Grinder (enemy)

Can There be a Disambiguation to this page? because there is also a grinder in super mario world which isn't a monkey.--Fg 09:42, 20 January 2007 (EST)
 * There's also a Grinder attack in Super Mario RPG.

What do you mean grinder attack?--Fg 09:45, 20 January 2007 (EST)


 * ...An attack called "Grinder". I don't recall it... but if it has anything to do with the Grinder enemies, then it's the SMW one (is Grinder the attack where they summon that red wheel?). Anyway, a disambiguation page would be helpful, I'd say. --YellowYoshi398 09:47, 20 January 2007 (EST)

I agree with you yellowYoshi398.--Fg 09:49, 20 January 2007 (EST)

It's the Birdy's attack.

Oh A Birdy attack but we're talking about putting a disambiguation page on grinder.--Fg 09:53, 20 January 2007 (EST)

YES! THE BIRDY'S ATTACK IS CALLED GRINDER!

Should Split into two articles
I Think Someone is going to have to split this article in two.--Fg 18:47, 21 January 2007 (EST)

... Why? -- Sir Grodus

Because there is a grinder in super mario world that is not a monkey.It is a sharp spiked wheel spinning.--Fg 18:50, 21 January 2007 (EST)


 * No that's Glinder. But yes because there's an attack called Grinder (attack) Paper Jorge

Glinder?If You look at the super mario world credits ending it says grinder not glinder.--Fg 18:54, 21 January 2007 (EST)


 * I meant about the 64 enemy but never mind. Paper Jorge

Grinder, Grinder (attack), Glinder and Grindel, confusing. -- Sir Grodus

Ninntendo is stupid to name these grinders. Where does it say they are called this anywho?

Answer Moogle's question.

Rename
Now that this has appeared in multiple games, should the article be renamed to "Grinder (Yoshi's Island series)"?

07:57, 27 January 2014 (EST)

Yeah, I think so. I will move it.


 * Alright, cool.


 * 08:10, 27 January 2014 (EST)

Called Ukikis in Yoshi's New Island?
In Yoshi's New Island the level names refer to them as Ukikis. I can't ever remember when they were called Grinders; should we merge?


 * I think one of the stage names called them that, there's also the manual for the original game iirc. 01:24, 22 March 2014 (EDT)

Ukikis look exactly the same as Grinders since Super Mario 64 DS, so it's likely Grinders and Ukikis are the same nowadays. I suggest making a Talk Page Proposal. Really, the only thing that makes them apart is the Japanese names (Osaru-san for Grinder and Ukki for Ukiki (according to TMK)), but the Porcupuffer had its Japanese name changed as well (Fugumannen in SMW (Again, according to TMK), and Togepuku in recent games). It's not like the English releases are the only releases that changes enemy names.

Merge with Ukiki
The most modern name is in Yoshi's New Island, which calls them Ukikis. As Arend says above, the two monkeys are indistinguishable after their Super Mario 64 DS redesign, and the only thing that's keeping them seperate is their Japanese names (which also occasionally change game to game, just like localized names). Also, I don't remember them being called Grinders (player's guide?) as the level names in Yoshi's Island generically call them monkeys.

Proposer: Deadline: April 8, 2014 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per Arend in the above heading and my proposal.

Oppose

 * 1) They are 2 different things.
 * 2) Per Fizzle in the comments section

Comments
Grinder is from the player's guide, I can confirm this. I am pretty sure Tetris Attack also states the name outright in the actual game itself, but I could be misremembering. Not sure about YIDS. As for merging, I would exercise caution right now. The Japanese names for Grinder and Ukiki are different. It may be sensible to wait until the game is released in Japan. If it's named in one of the level names, it should be easy to compare the Japanese level names from a recording or elsewhere to find out what their Japanese name is. Personally I'd be against merging, and instead just refer to the New Island enemies as Ukiki and leave the Grinder page to just refer to the original enemies, but lets see what the Japanese name is first before we do anything. Typically though, if they're named differently we should keep them separate, even if they look a lot alike. Fizzle (talk) 11:13, 28 March 2014 (EDT)

Good point. Let's wait until then.
 * For future reference, which level numbers include the name? It'll make it a lot easier to find out when the game is released (it's out in the summer in Japan, apparently). Fizzle (talk) 12:59, 29 March 2014 (EDT)

Yoshi's New Island update...
The Japanese name for this enemy remains the same, "おさるさん" (Osarusan) in the title of stage 3-2, found on a Youtube playthough of the Japanese version. Therefore only the English name for this enemy has been changed. That does leave things a little confused, unfortunately, but they are still technically different enemies, at least in Japan. Fizzle (talk) 10:11, 30 July 2014 (EDT)

Rename as Ukiki (Yoshi series)
These enemies don't quite seem to be the Ukikis later introduced the main series as the above proposal maintains, but it's hard to disagree with the extremely similar designs coupled with their mischevious behaviour that they're not at least equivalents of each other in some way. Furthermore, Yoshi's New Island explicitly calls these enemies Ukikis - the Grinder name only came from older strategy guides (considered a secondary or even tertiary source in comparison) that have not been republished.

Proposer: Deadline: January 5, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) If that's what Yoshi's New Island calls it, then per proposal.
 * 3) Per BabyLuigi64.
 * 4) Per proposal.
 * 5) Par prepusl.

Comments
What do you make of the Japanese name (おさるさん Osaru-san) being different than Ukikis (ウッキー Ukkī), including in Yoshi's New Island, according to Fizzle in the section above this one? - 22:10, 23 December 2014 (EST)
 * It's literally "monkey" with a -san suffix (basically just about the bare minimum of a derivative name that sometimes professional translators glance over), and according to the Ukiki page, they were also supposedly called just monkeys. The above discussions were against a merge based on Osaru/Ukiki alone. I think, at this point, the basic concepts and even names are interchangeable as far as localization is concerned - however, one version/design has so far only appeared as recurring enemies in the Yoshi series, so they can still be clearly distinguished that way. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:42, 24 December 2014 (EST)
 * Lots of species appear with slightly different behaviours in different series (and come to think of it, sometimes different names too, in one language or another), so really, if we're saying most things about the monkeys are interchangeable, including the current English name, why not just merge the two articles? - 00:33, 29 December 2014 (EST)
 * The above proposal seemed to move away from the direction of a complete merge, so with that in mind, I figured at least this would be the next best step. LinkTheLefty (talk) 10:20, 2 January 2015 (EST)
 * The above proposal was premature, since the game wasn't out yet, and then it was cancelled before anyone really had much chance to debate it. Why settle for the next best thing when we can just do the best thing for real this time: if the page is ultimately going to get merged sooner or later, might as well be sooner, without messing around with a move in between (and having to update all the links twice). - 11:18, 2 January 2015 (EST)

Merge with Ukiki redux
Pardon the inconvenience to above voters, but I believe a good point was raised in the comments - why bother keeping the articles separate if they're going to be walking a very thin line in the end, thus a full merge may result sooner or later out of this action? Besides this, the same arguments as the previous proposal apply since the proposed action is the main difference.

Proposer: Deadline: January 22, 2015, 23:59 GMT.

Support

 * 1) Per proposal.
 * 2) Same logic applies.
 * 3) I believe that you are correct.
 * 4) - Per my comments in the above proposal.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per Walkazo.
 * 7) Per all
 * 8) Per Walkazo.

Oppose

 * 1) Per my comment for now. In my view, they're still considered different types of monkey enemies.
 * 2) Per Tails777.

Comments
I dunno, sure they're similar and they're named Ukikis in YNI, but the only real similarities I can see is they're monkeys and they steal things. What about the ones that shoot watermelon seeds? Or the ones that hang on ropes and drop spiny whatever they are on you. I honestly think that Ukikis and Grinders were meant to be different monkeys to begin with, though I can't speak as for why they were named Ukikis in New Island in the first place. Renaming them to Ukiki (Yoshi series) is one thing (by naming coverage and all that), but I think merging them is a whole new deal.
 * Something the Ukiki article currently neglects to mention is that, counting majority of the Mario Party games, the more general "monkey" may actually outnumber instances of Ukiki (which is also the case with Grinder). It also seems like their face design as of Mario Party 7 was changed to be closer to Grinder (perhaps to coincide with the development of Yoshi's Island DS), but they're still called Ukikis according to other languages of the later minigames, which suggests to me that this might have been a more gradual change than it first seems. As for why some Yoshi's Island monkeys prefer different attack methods, I can only guess that's because the strategy guide authors stopped at Seedy Sally and Short Fuse. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:28, 8 January 2015 (EST)

I just checked the page myself. Under references, it states that in the official Nintendo Power guide for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island that it calls them Grinders. However, that is the only case of that name coming up that I know of. Some people in another discussion on this page said that in Yoshi's New Island, the monkeys are called Ukikis in one of the level names. Why not go with the more recent name? I probably should have said that in my vote, though... Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2015 (EST)
 * Then why not just rename it? I see more sense in the first proposal of just simply renaming it than to completely merge it with a similar looking monkey. Does any Yoshi's Island DS guide refer to Grinders as Grinders? I still think a full on merge is taking it one step further then it should.
 * Addressing the issue of whether I could check to see if the Yoshi's Island DS guide calls them, I will attempt to put my broken pieces back in place to check. Also, renaming the article might make sense if the proposal fails. I will put up a renaming proposal if this one fails. This issue should just be settled so that we can dial down on the confusion. Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 22:20, 8 January 2015 (EST)
 * After putting together the pieces to my Nintendo Power Yoshi's Island DS official guide, I found...


 * Not even ONE instance of the monkey being acknowledged. All I had to say from my name hunting is that Boss Bass really does appear in Yoshi's Island DS. Megamario15 - The REAL Mario (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2015 (EST)