Talk:Harisenbon

Merge with Spiny Cheep Cheep
Hey there, I came across an official character guide book and on this page here it specifies that ‘harisenbon’ is actually named トゲプク, or togepuku if romanised. This is also the official Japanese name of Spiny Cheep Cheep. Additionally the sprite next to it is the sprite from SML2, and the enemy ‘harisenbon’ does not appear at all, this suggests they are the same enemy and that it simply behaves slightly differently in SML2 as there is no official source that harisenbon is their real name. It also states below the sprite that it appears in both SMB3 and SML2. I don't know how to create a merging proposal, I think admins have to do it or something
 * Make that two official sources. We have this page from the Kodansha manga... and it's togepuku (it's on the middle of the page to the right). It would be nice to know where "harisenbon" came from, but it seems like to me that it's "togepuku" all along. Off-topic, that 4koma in that source you cited heavily resembles the Pikkapika Super Mario-Kun and would be an interesting addition to that article. If you want me or someone else create the proposal, it's fine, but there's a how-to, complete with a template if you're inexperienced with wiki code. 18:04, 25 July 2016 (EDT)
 * ooh, yeah, then it difnitely seems like the real name. I too wonder where harisenbon comes from then? And about the proposal, could you do it? it's getting late here and I'm still kinda confused after reading that page, so yeah

Merge Harisenbon with Spiny Cheep Cheep
As stated above, "Harisenbon" has no source for its name while two official sources state that it's "Togepuku". "Togepuku" happens to be the name of Spiny Cheep Cheep. Furthermore, we do have several existing Mario enemies such as Cheep Cheep, Goomba, Bullet Bill, and Paragoomba that has appeared in Super Mario Land 2, so Spiny Cheep Cheep will fit right in. The only possible thing that sets them apart is the Harisenbon's elongated appearance when not inflated and the inflation behavior itself, though Cheep Cheeps do turn into Puffer-Cheeps in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, yet that particular Cheep Cheep isn't split.

Proposer: Deadline: August 9, 2016 23:59 GMT

Support

 * 1) Per proposal
 * 2) Per above
 * 3) My full support, per all.
 * 4) Merge it! If the Double Dash!! is merged with the Rocket Start, then this one should do as well.
 * 5) Per all.
 * 6) Per all.
 * 7) Per all.
 * 8) Per all.
 * 1) Per all.

Oppose

 * 1) Cheep Cheeps and Spiny Cheep Cheeps are not like Porcupinefish, which  suggests. This merge makes no sense in this regard.
 * 2) Even if it is named "Togepuku", it acts differently from Spiky Cheep Cheeps. I also believe that it is a little bigger (when inflated). Wildgoosespeeder has a point, but it can be expanded. Harisenbon's relative species are Porcupuffer (which has a relation with Spiky Cheep Cheeps (forwards and backwards)) and Loch Nestor (which has no references to Spiky Cheep Cheeps neither the other way around). See Gallery:Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins and you will not find a picture of a Cheep Cheep. Instead you will find a Blurp which is two rows above Harisenbon (at this time). They are quite similar, I must admit. So similar that I say that Harisenon can be actually called Spiky Blurp. Harisenbon should not be put with Spiky Cheep Cheeps. It is a separate species.
 * 3) Harisenbons/Togepukus/Spiky Blurp are different things than Spiky Cheep Cheeps. If the articles aren't merged, this article should be renamed Togepuku or Spiky Blurp. (Sorry, but I'm not good at  making links.
 * 4) Reading the article, they don't seem that similar. They look more alike to Porcupuffers, they don't act that similar to Spiny Cheep-Cheeps. Yeah, I'd more or less go with renaming it Togepuku rather than merging it.
 * 5) Doesn't act all that similarly to a Spiny Cheep Cheep, it appears to be more similar to a real-life porcupinefish as Wildgoosespeeder pointed out.

Comments
Wildgoosespeeder: While its behavior is just like a porcupine fish, this assumes "Harisenbon" is the actual name for this enemy (since "harisenbon" translates literally to "porcupine fish"). The main problem is that there isn't an official source for that name. 00:00, 27 July 2016 (EDT)

Yoshi the Space Station Manager:It appears to me that Cheep Cheeps do appear in Super Mario Land 2 and as separate from Blurps. Shown in this sprite sheet and in the body text of the article itself. Your suggestion to call them "Spiky Blurp" would be inconsistent with the Japanese name, which is shared with Spiny Cheep Cheep and is just plumb incorrect. Behavior and appearance are factors, but we deal those things as case-by-case. I really don't think the inflation behavior is quite enough to be split, but I still acknowledge that trait being a possible reason for split. It's just that the reasons to merge seem more compelling to me. 17:41, 28 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Looking at the sheet, appearance between the Cheep Cheep and the Blurp look different. Harisenbo looks more like Blurp than Cheep Cheep. You are also forgetting that Japanese names don't always match English names. Looking at the Japenese word, Togepuku, it means Spiked Cheep. Harisbon looks like that definition. However, they are not exactly the same species, but Harisbon is like a sub-species. Blurps are a sub-species of Cheep Cheeps. I am suggesting that they remain split and have Spiny Cheep Cheep be the parent species like Blurps are to Cheep Cheeps.

As for the Cheep Cheep that is in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, the Puffer-Cheep is separated. That Cheep Cheep is in the article, but has a different article as well. As for Harisbon, their is not enough information to have it like Cheep Cheep/Puffer-Cheep. It must either be split or together. Because of the vast difference, it must be split. --Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2016 (EDT)

Keep in mind the reason for the merge is that they are actually stated to be the same species. the behaviour may differ, but this could simply be addressed in its specific SML2 section after the merge. (assuming it does happen)
 * Where is it stated that they were the same species? In the propose stated (I know it is implied that they are, but this is no proof), It says, ""Togepuku" happens to be the name of Spiny Cheep Cheep." It doesn't give clear evidence that it is the same species. Can you show me where it was stated to be the same enemy? By the way, I am researching this information. So if the source you give me doesn't have it stated, you can forget about putting it up for me. If it says the same, maybe we can change the name to "Togepuku (Super Mario Land 2)". Usally appearance don't matter between games, but their is a Cheep Cheep (whose parent species Spiny Cheep Cheeps are) in the game. Harisenbon doesn't look like it as much as the Blurps in the game. --Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2016 (EDT)
 * "Harisenbon"'s name has no source. Since "Togepuku" is the name given to this fish from two official sources, this article would have been renamed to "Togepuku". "Togepuku", however, is the Japanese name of the Spiny Cheep Cheep. Given the similarities of appearance and shared Japanese names, a merge would be logical in this case. We have enemies changing appearance and behavior from game-to-game several times such as Scuttlebug and Porcupuffer, so it's not a super strong case to say "well, they look and behave differently", especially when that's the only thing that's keeping them apart. I don't see the similarities between this and Blurp, particularly, the eye structure. 20:10, 29 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Yes, I know "Harisenbon" doesn't have a source. I read the proposer. As for changing appearances, Spiny Cheep Cheeps go as far back as Super Mario Bros. 3. Back then, it only went faster. Harisenbon has abilities that modern Spiny Cheep Cheeps don't have, the ability to inflate. As for Scuttlebugs, they don't really change abilities by a lot. Porcupuffer's abilities are similar.

Now to talk about the appearance of Harisenbon, Blurp, and Cheep Cheep. Cheep Cheeps have a sad mouth, curved separation, and nothing around the eyes. Blurps have a straight mouth, straight separation, and goggles. Harisenbon has a straight mouth, straight separation, and nothing around the eyes. Harisenbon look like Blurp the most when it is near completion of inflation. Harisenbon never looks exactly like Blurp because of spikes and lack of fins.--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 21:12, 29 July 2016 (EDT)

Did you read the section above before the merge as well? in the guide it states Togepuku appears in both SMB3 and SML2. It uses the art of the Spiny Cheep Cheep from SMB3 and the sprite of him in SML2 to show and describe one single enemy. Additionally, there is no source found for the Harisenbon name whatsoever. I think the guide says something like ‘Family of Pukupuku (so Cheep Cheep). It has poisonous spikes on its back. Touching even a little will hurt you. Since it moves in a straight line, try dodging it’
 * My guess is that they used a artwork of something earlier origin to somehow get an idea. Their is not official artwork for Harisenbon other than that. If you are wondering where we get 'Harisenbon' from, the real life Harisenbon is poisonous in some species and is able to inflate. Since these creatures act the same way, we called them Harisenbons. Since Spiny Cheep Cheeps don't act that way in any game, I say that the people who did the character book and manga didn't know about Harisenbons of the real world. They used the Japenese name for Spiny Cheep Cheeps to find something similar. Super Mario Bros. 3 was the only appearance of Spiny Cheep Cheeps before Super Mario Land 2. They just remove the color. Since they used an artwork from Super Mario Bros. 3, I say they relized Harisenbons where quite similar to Spiny Cheep Cheeps. They didn't realize that they were two different species. One is a parent-species; the other is a sub-species. The guide comforms that Harisenbons are of Cheep Cheep species. This guide doesn't make them the same as Spiny Cheep Cheeps. The guide references real life Harisenbons.--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2016 (EDT)
 * What are you talking about? you're just making those things up, theorising that that's what they did. We should follow what an official source says instead of making things up ourselves.
 * If we did follow the Mario Character Book, we would have to make Lady and Pauline separate. (page 24 is where you can find them.) The manga is adding more information on Super Mario Land 2 based on the rest of the series.--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 16:14, 31 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Stop bringing up "Harisenbon". It's a moot point because it's an unsourced name (which could mean it's possibly made up). Saying that "people didn't know 'harisenbons' of the real world and so they used 'togepuku' as a substitute" is speculative and rather absurd. Focus on the facts, which are two official Japanese sources giving this a Japanese name that is shared with the Japanese name of Spiky Cheep Cheep and contradicts with the dubious previous name we have. As for "we have to make Lady and Pauline separate", that's not a logical analogy and I don't see how that's relevant to the article. 20:04, 31 July 2016 (EDT)
 * Harisenbon is from Wikipedia in the Fugu article. It is in the species section. It says, "The list names safe genera including pufferfish of the Lagocephalus and Sphoeroides genera and the related porcupinefish (Harisenbon) of the family of Diodontidae." The reason I am saying Harisenbon is the species in question is currently called Harisenbon. I read some more on the Mario Character Book. A lot of it is quiet confusing. (I can't read Japenese by the way.) Their are some notes on the bottom of the page. After actually reading it. I see that they use the almost inflated form of Harisenbon as a sprite. The artwork is from Super Mario Bros. 3. The subject on that page is Spiny Cheep Cheep. They used an almost inflated creature to show off one sprite. Their is another sprite below that that shows it deflated. Below that is Mario and Spinies like from a manga. As for separation of Lady and Pauline, it has no reference to the article. It was trying to show you something from the character book that isn't consistant with this wiki.--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2016 (EDT)
 * It is called "harisenbon", but there is a plain "citation needed" next to its name, which means that it's a dubious name. Oh, yeah, if this enemy has shared artwork with Spiny Cheep Cheep from Super Mario Bros. 3, that actually lends support to this enemy being the same enemy as Spiny Cheep Cheep. Honestly, the only thing that sets this enemy species apart is its behavior, but that in of itself isn't a consistently compelling reason to keep them split. 22:18, 31 July 2016 (EDT)
 * To Bazooka Mario: I just read your user page. We are not going to agree with everything. We will be arguing for a while on this. With the low amount of information of the character book, I say it was written before Spiny Cheep Cheeps appeared again. They didn't know how Spiny Cheep Cheeps would behave in the future. They combined the Super Mario Bros. 3 with sprites from Super Mario Land 2 thinking that they were the same and the abilities would continue. They failed to realize that the one in Super Mario Land 2 was a sub-species. Like I said, we are not always going to agree. You, being a strong atheist, see things different from those who believe in religions. Since I believe in Christianity, we will argue about religions as well. That being said, your arguments might become stronger. You can forget about convincing me to change my vote, though. Since this Wiki is open to all people and all religions, be careful what you say.

To those that just read that and are not Bazooka Mario: America is suppose to be a place where what you believe in shouldn't affect another person's view to you. 'All men (this includes women) are created equal.'-Decaration of Indepence. A majority of the time, my beliefs won't affect this wiki that much, but if they do, I will try to have respect for your reasons why.--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2016 (EDT)


 * How did we go from Spiny Cheep Cheeps, to different religious beliefs and the declaration of independance? Rhetorical question, irrelevant discussions end here.


 * 18:13, 1 August 2016 (EDT)

Tails777: I would consider the behavior difference as a meaningful distinction, but are there any enemy articles that have only Japanese sources for their names and share their Japanese name for their parent species? Kuribo, Pukupuku... but those two have even more different. Teresa is a redirect to Boo. Pakkun redirects to Piranha Plant... and Piranha Plants DO have behavioral differences, particularly between Super Mario games and Yoshi's Island. Sure, Piranha Plants are confirmed to be Piranha Plants in Yoshi's Island, but wouldn't the same apply to this fish, just in Japanese terms? There is no precedent to renaming this as Togepuku and keeping it separate from Spiny Cheep Cheep. If there is one, I'll reconsider my point. 19:20, 1 August 2016 (EDT)

Just wondering about something. How would the paragraph(s) for Spiny Cheep Cheep (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins section) would look if this were to pass?--Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) 00:26, 8 August 2016 (EDT)

So, it's always interesting to see this sort of information still being uncovered from obscure places, but I'm not sure if I completely follow why this enemy should merge given the split Yoshi's Story Togepuku... LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2016 (EDT)
 * There is only one flaw about that. Spiny Fish is an official English name for that species. This doesn't have an official English name. No, I am not talking about the one in the Mario Character Book, Spiny Cheep Cheep isn't really there just the artwork, but the name is there in the English notes below it. Still, your point on Spiny Fish=Togepuku does in fact support that you can have something called in Japenese as Togepuku not be Spiny Cheep Cheep in English. If it isn't for the flaw, this could have very good reasons why this should be split from Spiny Cheep Cheep. Redyoshi.png Yoshi the Space Station Manager (talk) Future space station for sig.jpg