Gallery talk:Fawful

Several sprites from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story were removed by Baby Luigi (talk). The RPG Gamer (talk) added them back. I removed them. It appears an explanation is required as to why those sprites were deleted. It's simply because they are unnecessary. Sure, many users use them, but they are quite unnecessary for the conveyance of information, as stated by Baby Luigi in her edit summary. This is probably the only page they are on and they are really just Fawful/Dark Fawful in various poses. At least one was even fan-made, which is definitely not allowed! No, these images have to go. However, we can't delete them, not with so many users using them. But what if someone already has their limit of personal images is using one, but they have been using it the longest and thus, must adopt it? When these users added the excessive sprites to their pages, they didn't know that in a few years, they would all be deemed unnecessary. They didn't know they'd have to adopt one, so they did not prepare for it and likely used up their personal image count. What I'm saying is, would it be OK to remove the sprites from the gallery (and possibly remove the gallery, considering it was really just created to house all those sprites), but not tag them as personal images? Here's the images, just for reference so one can see why they are unnecessary.

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  Spinning

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  Laughing/talking (maybe keep)

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  Performing

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  Carrying Peach

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  Dark Fawful using his energy ball attack

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  Dark Fawful preparing for battle

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  Dark Fawful using another attack

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  Dark Fawful damaged (maybe keep)

• FawfulBugsprite65.png

  Bug form

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  Fawful transforming into Dark Fawful (fan-made)

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  Static image of the transformation (meant to replace the other one)

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 21:50, 19 November 2016 (EST)

Why was the bug form image removed? It shows a different angle from the image currently in the article. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:55, 25 August 2017 (EDT)

Those are different forms. The one here is the weakened state that appears right after Dark Fawful's defeat. The one on the article is his superpowered Dark Star Core form, Mario and Luigi's final boss. That one needs to stay.

Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 22:03, 25 August 2017 (EDT)

This is unneeded how, exactly? Official animations are always nice. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:37, 26 August 2017 (CT)

MarioWiki is not an image gallery of every single animation in the game. Most of these sprites do little to illustrate Fawful's role in Mario & Luigi games, and many of them were added simply because of fan bias. If Fawful is allowed to have this many sprites in his gallery, then so does the more major characters like Mario, Luigi, Peach, etc. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:10, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

And they certainly should. So how about instead of removing this type of image from the places that have them, we add more to the places that need them? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:19, 26 August 2017 (CT)

Per Doc. So long as there isn't a gross amount of overlap, I don't see a reason to intentionally get rid of valid information. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:21, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Tell me, where can the use of "Fawful spinning in a circle" be used outside of this gallery? Or the one where he's glowing without any context whatsoever? Or the one where he's carrying Peach? Or the two near identical animated gifs. Or the one sprite where the background isn't removed properly? Or the Dark Fawful transformation one? Why does Fawful have a huge amount of sprites per game, but other characters aren't allowed to have this many sprites? Where's the valid information there? Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:27, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I don't recall anyone saying that the other characters shouldn't have the same amount of sprites. Also, what's your criteria for "valid information"? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:29, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

It doesn't need to be set in stone, it's pure common sense that you should upload only what's necessary to gallery pages without bloating these pages up, especially for characters who have made multiple appearances in many games. Also, I had removed Small Mario pictures because there was an excessive amount of screenshots that were completely redundant and convey the same information about the form, same applies here. My criteria for valid information is basically, it illustrates the character, it has some practical use when constructing galleries or templates, or they sprites are unique in style from each other to have different variations of them, and it demonstrates their personality. This is why I think keeping the Fawful laughing or applauding is fine, since it showcases his personality, but the rest should go. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:33, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I'm certain that there are many characters whose galleries would be blank by those (frankly really strict and rather arbitrary) standards. I don't think it's necessary to have every single frame of an animation as separate images, and I'm not saying that every single one of these images should be put back, but at the same time, if the images are different from those around them, I still don't see why they shouldn't be included. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:42, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I mostly took my standard from the screenshots guideline outlined here and my own judgement, because I think it's reasonable to have a limit on how much sprites a character should be allowed to have per game to not excessively bloat the gallery with too many sprites. Those limits aren't meant to be arbitrary nor are they hard-set in stone, but rather, a general guideline on how to keep the gallery page to a reasonable length and amount of sprites. I'd also argue that those Fawful sprites don't look distinctive to each other at all. Fawful carrying Peach is just a picture of Fawful carrying Peach, stripped out of all context whatsoever, same thing with Fawful about to shoot an energy ball. Some Fawful images, I think, could be returned like the ones I mentioned above but I think most of them don't serve a unique purpose at all and simply serve as gallery filler. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:50, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

The spinning one and showboating ones also show his personality, due to demonstrating his flamboyance, IMO. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2017 (CT)

I do like the showboating one, because it's far more apparent, but the spinning one is just Fawful spinning. That's all I see in that sprite. Ray Trace^(T|C) 20:53, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

As far as I'm aware, there isn't a limit to how many images can be included into a gallery. And the relevance of an image outside of a gallery doesn't need to be taken into account, and isn't taken into account for several images included solely in the multitude of galleries we have. 20:56, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

The only limit is for the number of bytes, and even then, we can always split it off into further galleries. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:58, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

If there was absolutely no limit to what you could add to galleries, here's what they'll look like. It's incredibly messy and something we want to avoid. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:06, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

The problem there is that it's showing huge screenshots whose only relevance to the gallery is a tiny section of it (and also a Goomba?), which isn't strictly relevant to this discussion. Again, I don't want to include images that are outright redundant, but otherwise, I don't see the issue. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:09, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

On the point of Fawful's gallery, what's the problem? Even with the images above included, it wouldn't be a big issue. Though the fan-made one should marked as a PI in some way. 21:11, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

The problem is that I find it redundant and it's unnecessary filler. You haven't persuaded me why they're worth keeping, what is their value, and what do they add to the gallery. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:12, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

You haven't persuaded me that they're not worth keeping. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:13, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

They don't add anything to the gallery, they don't illustrate Fawful's character, they have redundant animated gifs, they illustrate his role the same way one sprite could. Your turn. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:14, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Of Course Fawful's going to have many animations depicting his personality and such, he debuted in Superstar Saga, which was one of the most.....expressive games in the series. The game that went so hideously off model for expression. Even more off-model than the other games of that area, which is saying metric tonnes. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:17, 26 August 2017 (CT)

They're unique to him, whether they do or don't illustrate his character is entirely subjective, and the animations show much more about them than a single sprite could. À toi. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:19, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I figured it should be replaced with how it looks in the actual game, ie without the arm crossing, which is a different animation (because in the game, he transforms, then is punched away by Bowser, if memory serves me correctly. It's been a while.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2017 (CT)

The only one I feel is irrelevant is the fan-made one, maybe the one where he gets hurt. Everything else I think still shows Fawful's character. 21:16, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

I'll go into more detail on my opinions of each sprite, if that's what you want me to do.

• Spinning: From my perspective, this is just a picture of Fawful spinning in a circle. That's it. There's nothing more I can say about it. I've heard some interpretations that it's just Fawful showcasing his personality, but if we wanted images of Fawful showcasing off his personality, some of the next sprites do a far better job than this one. Delete
• Laughing/talking: I think this one is worth keeping. Fawful is known to laugh in this manner for all the games he appeared in, where he taunts and laughs at you in the same manner this battle, as well as some other sprites that do so. It's a good showcase of his personality. Keep
• Performing: I like this picture too, because it's animated and it showcases off how narcisstic he is. If there's a picture that showcases his personality well, then this one is a good one, which makes the Fawful spinning picture redundant. I do think there should be a limit on how many images we even need to illustrate his character however, because too many images that showcase off the same personality quirk he has serves a redundant purpose and therefore is unnecessary. Keep
• Carrying Peach: This is just a sprite of Fawful carrying Peach. That's it. There's nothing special about this sprite. Kidnapping Peach isn't even what people know Fawful is about; we don't have sprites of Bowser kidnapping and carrying Peach, so why should Fawful? Delete
• Dark Fawful using his energy ball attack: This doesn't even have the necessary particle effects required to pull the attack off, and again, no character needs to demonstrate what their attack animation looks like, ESPECIALLY without the projectile stated, so this looks completely useless. Oh it's just Fawful in a different palette? That's not a good enough reason to keep it there. Delete
• Dark Fawful preparing for battle: The frames in this gif is completely redundant with "Fawful transforming into Dark Fawful (fan-made)". That's all that needs to be said. Delete
• Dark Fawful using another attack: What is Fawful even doing in this picture? Why is this picture necessary? Why use this picture, when we have a far better gif here? The background isn't even removed properly from Mageker/AJ Nitro's ripped sprite sheet. Delete
• Dark Fawful damaged: This is not necessary either, especially that, since we have an idle Fawful picture of what he looks like in this specific battle and it's also a better way of illustrating that. This is just a picture of Fawful being hurt. It's nothing special at all. All boss characters get hurt. Delete
• Bug form: All right, this shows a frontal view of Fawful as a bug in the overworld, so I say it's good enough to be returned to the gallery. Keep
• Fawful transforming into Dark Fawful (fan-made): This is a picture of Fawful transforming into Dark Fawful. I think it's good enough to keep as it shows the transformation process pretty well. Which brings up the next picture.... Keep
• Static image of the transformation: This is a single frame of animation from the previous picture, and it's meant to serve as animation frame. This has no purpose of being a stand-alone picture. Delete

I hope you understand my points. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:31, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

i'm just going to point out that you want to keep a fanmade image Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:36, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Why is there even a fan-made image in there in the first place? Why not reupload the gif as official? If it's made-up, then it should be deleted a long time ago. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:40, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Why can't we keep the official animated ones, weed out the redundant solo sprites, replace the low-quality ones, and add more .GIFs to the other character galleries? No point taking them out for arbitrary reasons that don't click with other people. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2017 (CT)

I've explained myself in great detail on my opinions with the images, and this is your only defense, that I'm being "arbitrary"? Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:45, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

To put it simply, yeah. What's unnecessary to you is necessary to someone else, and I'm not sure how I can explain that besides literally just saying the opposite of what you've already said. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:49, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

Now we're wading into subjectivity rather than practicality, the latter is what this wiki mostly operates on. If we were to upload Fawful having this many sprites per game, it would open up the floodgates for sprites for other games, especially for more major character's articles like Mario, Peach, etc. and I think it would excessively bloat navigation and organization. There's a reason we have a policy of generally one screenshot per game, it's to prevent a ridiculous amount of sprites being uploaded per game. For consistency's sake, there's a reason Fawful's gallery is an anomaly to most other characters, it's mostly for the reasons I had stated above rather than lack of interest. Ray Trace^(T|C) 21:53, 26 August 2017 (EDT)

"Carrying Peach: This is just a sprite of Fawful carrying Peach. That's it. There's nothing special about this sprite. Kidnapping Peach isn't even what people know Fawful is about; we don't have sprites of Bowser kidnapping and carrying Peach, so why should Fawful? Delete"

Nothing special? He was the one who had to carry her away from Bowser since Midbus wouldn't do it for Fawful. But other than that, I don't see much worth in the image. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2017 (EDT)